Spirit of Prophesy
It seems to me that "the spirit of prophesy" is sometimes used as an alternative name of Ellen White. So, my questions are, is the spirit of prophesy something only ellen white have had? is the spirit of prophesy always called just "spirit of prophesy? does anyone on this forum have the spirit of prophesy?
I have this week been on a conference for the exchange of ideas on how to plant churches (SDA conference) and there has been much said about Jesus, whos story we must share with those who still dont know it, and the Holy Spirit who are providing everything we must have to do so. The Holy Spirit has many names in the scriptures, one of which is "the spirit of elijah". Also it has been said that Spirit of Prophesy is one of the names for the Holy Spirit.
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 08/11/03 03:27 AM
I think it would be good to see what both the Bible and the writings of EGW have to say about this topic, therefore, I moved the topic here.
What does the Bible have to say about the spirit of prophecy?
Here is one reference I have found:
quote:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The Bible tells us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
What does this actually mean?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 08/12/03 12:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
quote:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The Bible tells us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
What does this actually mean?
It seems to me that John and the other christians of that day had the spirit of prophesy. Also it would seem that if we can testify of Jesus to others, we to would have the spirit of prophesy.
/Thomas
It seems to me that "the spirit of prophesy" is sometimes used as an alternative name of Ellen White.
It is an alternative name to the writings of EGW.
So, my questions are, is the spirit of prophesy something only ellen white have had?
No, the Spirit of Prophecy is the gift of prophecy that is administered by the Holy Spirit through whom He chooses and for His infinites purposes. EGW, and her writings, happened to be a major manifestation of this gift of God.
is the spirit of prophesy always called just "spirit of prophesy?
Some times it is called the Testimony of Jesus. Rev 12:17 and Rev 19:10
does anyone on this forum have the spirit of prophesy?
I have the gift of teaching which is what a prophet does. I have never given a prophecy that has only been given through me. As a teacher I have taught, and do teach supernatural things that the HOly Spirit has revealed to me. But these things have been in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy.
I have this week been on a conference for the exchange of ideas on how to plant churches (SDA conference) and there has been much said about Jesus, whos story we must share with those who still dont know it, and the Holy Spirit who are providing everything we must have to do so. The Holy Spirit has many names in the scriptures, one of which is "the spirit of elijah". Also it has been said that Spirit of Prophesy is one of the names for the Holy Spirit.
That is true. An interesting text to study on your questions is Numbers 11. It has some interesting things to say about the gift of prophecy. Of course the largest discourse on the subject is I Cor 12-14
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/04/03 08:04 PM
Here's an interesting insight. I did a search on the phrase "the spirit of" and here's what I found.
Exodus
28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all [that are] wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Numbers
5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
1 Samuel
11:6 And the spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
2 Kings
2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which [were] to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
2 Chronicles
21:16 Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that [were] near the Ethiopians:
Ezra
1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and [put it] also in writing, saying,
Job
20:3 I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.
Proverbs
20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Isaiah
4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah
29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Daniel
4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
Hosea
4:12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused [them] to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
Zechariah
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Romans
1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
1 Corinthians
2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness?
Galatians
6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Ephesians
1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
2 Timothy
1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1 John
4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Revelation
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/05/03 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Greg Goodchild:
It seems to me that "the spirit of prophesy" is sometimes used as an alternative name of Ellen White.
It is an alternative name to the writings of EGW.
Then the question comes, is it missused? Should we reduce the meaning of the term to only include the work of one person who had the gift of prophesy?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/05/03 11:56 PM
Maybe I'm the only one here that thinks the various ways the Bible uses the phrase "the spirit of" is helpful information? But it would seem from the examples posted above that the phrase "the spirit of prophecy" is an experience rather than an office, a verb (action word) rather than a noun (person, place or thing), a process rather than a product.
In other words, the spirit or mind of a prophet is what enables him to receive a prophecy. Notice the different spellings - prophecy vs. prophesy. Prophecy is the message itself whereas prophesy is proclaiming it. Anybody with the gift to teach or preach can prophesy, but only those with the spirit or gift of prophecy can receive a prophecy.
So, is Sister White the only person with the spirit of prophecy? Well, certainly she is the only person God has used extinsively since John the Revelator. There have no doubt been people who have experienced the spirit of prophecy on a limited or localized scale, but Sister White seems to be the lsat person God has used in wide scale fashion. I suspect though that there will be more people gifted with the spirit of prophecy before Jesus returns.
What do you think?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/06/03 12:33 AM
I never noticed the two different spellings in the Bible before, and the word or spelling of the phrase,
spirit of prophecy, is found only once in the whole Bible.
quote:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
And the spelling of the phrase,spirit of prophesy, isn't found anywhere in the whole Bible.
Interesting!
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/06/03 10:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Maybe I'm the only one here that thinks the various ways the Bible uses the phrase "the spirit of" is helpful information? But it would seem from the examples posted above that the phrase "the spirit of prophecy" is an experience rather than an office, a verb (action word) rather than a noun (person, place or thing), a process rather than a product.
In other words, the spirit or mind of a prophet is what enables him to receive a prophecy. Notice the different spellings - prophecy vs. prophesy. Prophecy is the message itself whereas prophesy is proclaiming it. Anybody with the gift to teach or preach can prophesy, but only those with the spirit or gift of prophecy can receive a prophecy.
So, is Sister White the only person with the spirit of prophecy? Well, certainly she is the only person God has used extinsively since John the Revelator. There have no doubt been people who have experienced the spirit of prophecy on a limited or localized scale, but Sister White seems to be the lsat person God has used in wide scale fashion. I suspect though that there will be more people gifted with the spirit of prophecy before Jesus returns.
What do you think?
Wasnt aware this difference existed before you mentioned it here. As Daryl pointed out, its "prophecy" thats interesting here and not "prophesy".
I had never thaught of "the spirit of prophecy" as a state of mind, but I see how one can read it that way in context of the other uses of the phrase "spirit of...".
On another level it says, "spirit of prophecy = testimony of Jesus" and "you and your brothers who hold the testimony of Jesus" speaking to John. Thus it seems that spirit of prophesy wasnt uncommon in the time of John, in fact as the angle calls himself a fellowservant of John and his brothers who hold the testimony of Jesus, every beliver would have had the spirit of prophecy at that time. Also noticed that he cannot be talking about the other apostles since it is said that John was the only apostle still alive at this point in time.
Lastly I wonder how we can be sure that EW was the last since John to be a prophet on large scale. After all, there are perhaps 14-15 million people who accept the adventist faith and who thus would accept Ellens prophecy, noticing that nonadventists dont seem to inclined to do so, not on any large scale anyway. 14 million isnt much on the 6 billion people or even on the 2 billion christians in the world. There is a possibility of other prophets with prophecies reaching equal amounths of people that we never heard about. In case anyone would feel like write these 2 billion christians of as heretics for not accepting the prophesies of Ellen, id just want to point out that such an attitude comes close to shifting the focus from Jesus to Ellen and crossing that line would be a herecy in itself. Remember the parable where Jesus tells about the wheat and the weeds (matt 13:34-30).
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/06/03 05:52 PM
Exodus
25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Psalm
19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
1 Corinthians
1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
2 Timothy
1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Revelation
1:2 Who [John] bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/07/03 06:18 AM
According to the passages posted above it would appear that the phrase "the testimony of Jesus" refers in general to the Bible, whereas in the Revelation it seems to refer specifically to the prophecies and messages contained therein.
In the Revelation it says that the remnant people of God, who live during the great tribulation, have the testimony of Jesus. What does it mean to "have" the testimony of Jesus? Well, since this phrase refers to the Bible having the testimony of Jesus must necessarily mean having an accurate understanding of and experience with the truth as it is in Jesus, the truth as revealed in the Bible and the Revelation.
Revelation
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The phrase "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" most likely means - the truth as it is in Jesus has been revealed to us by prophets through the spirit of prophecy, the sure word of prophecy. Notice how other translations render the meaning of Rev 19:10:
The Good News Translation
19:10 I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "Don't do it! I am a servant together with you and with other believers, all those who hold to the truth that Jesus revealed. Worship God!" For the truth that Jesus revealed is what inspires the prophets.
The New Living Translation
19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, "No, don't worship me. For I am a servant of God, just like you and other brothers and sisters who testify of their faith in Jesus. Worship God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/07/03 06:47 AM
Who has Jesus testimony and are there followers of Jesus that dont have it. Is Jesus testimony the gospel or something more besides? Is there any correlatiuon between having Jesus testimony and beeing saved?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 10/06/03 07:13 PM
As I understand it, the everlasting gospel is the entire message of salvation in Jesus. It includes understanding and living by faith in harmony with the truth and the messages of the prophecies. "Having the everlasting gospel" means experiencing righteousness by faith. Unfortunately not all professing believers have been saved from sin unto good works.
Revelation
14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What do you think?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/25/03 08:15 PM
I've always understood the "spirit of prophecy" (lowercase) to be the actual spiritual gift of prophecy, given to people like Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, John the Baptist, Paul, etc. And Ellen G. White.
We know that the "testimony of Jesus" and the "spirit of prophecy" are the same thing, Rev. 19:10.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians,
"Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..." 1 Corinthians 1:6,7.
Paul says that the "testimony of Christ" is a "gift". The "testimony of Christ" would be the same as the "testimony of Jesus", which is the "spirit of prophecy"; so since a=b=c, the "spirit of prophecy" is the gift of prophecy.
As for the difference between "prophecy" with a 'c', and "prophesy" with an 's'; the former is a noun, and the latter a verb, right? (When a prophet prophesies, he/she gives prophecies.)
Lastly, it's been common practice to refer to the writings of EGW as the "Spirit of Prophecy", capital letters; since they contain things revealed by the foremost spiritual gift -- the spirit of prophecy, testimony of Jesus, testimony of Christ.
Posted By: R.A.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/25/03 11:58 PM
Isn't the Spirit of prophecy a body of work that was inspired by the Holy Spirit through all the ages? Inspiration was given to many servants of the Lord for our edification and to help us in these latter days.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/26/03 12:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by R.A.:
Isn't the Spirit of prophecy a body of work that was inspired by the Holy Spirit through all the ages? Inspiration was given to many servants of the Lord for our edification and to help us in these latter days.
Hmm, would you consider for instance the work of Augustine to be part of the Spirit of Prophecy? After all, I have been told that his work influences the entire western church, including protestantism and thus including adventism.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/26/03 08:06 AM
Did Augustine speak according to the law and the testimony?
Isaiah
8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/26/03 03:13 PM
Have no idea, do you know?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/26/03 06:47 PM
To get a flavor of his teachings check out these two articles on predestination and original sin, and one on his teachings in general:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm
Posted By: R.A.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 07:15 AM
Quote
________________________________
Originally posted by Thomas
Hmm, would you consider for instance the work of Augustine to be part of the Spirit of Prophecy? After all, I have been told that his work influences the entire western church, including protestantism and thus includes adventism.
All work by Augustine would need to be compared to our only standard the Bible. Great care must be taken for at times the path of truth and the path of error lie close together. If error is found in Augustine's work then it can be compared to fruit from the poison tree. Does this mean that all of his enormous collection of theological writings are untrue? Not at all but once error is found it then becomes a matter of searching for truth from a tainted source
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 01:02 PM
Follow up question: Who besides the authors of the bible and Ellen would you consider as contributors to the Spirit of Prophecy. I am quite sure the amounth of authors that would generaly be regarded as 100% flawless can be easily counted.
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 03:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by R.A.:
All work by Augustine would need to be compared to our only standard the Bible. Great care must be taken for at times the path of truth and the path of error lie close together. If error is found in Augustine's work then it can be compared to fruit from the poison tree. Does this mean that all of his enormous collection of theological writings are untrue? Not at all but once error is found it then becomes a matter of searching for truth from a tainted source
Ehm, another comment on this, according to Jesus, if the fruit of augustines work is bad, we should not try to search for good fruits in among it. Only a good tree bears good fruit and cannot bear bad fruit and the other way around for a bad tree. So either its all good or all bad in its fruit. A bad tree as can be seen in the quote belove should be burned...
/Thomas
quote:
Matt 7 A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Posted By: R.A.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 05:09 PM
You are 100% correct.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 06:02 PM
We do need to be careful, though, to take into account that a lot of truth was lost over the ages between Christ's time and now. While I'm not saying that Augustine spoke according "to the law and to the testimony" (he was very decidedly Catholic after all), there are others who didn't have the light we have, who did the best they could under the circumstances, but who still had unbiblical doctrine. Martin Luther was a Sundaykeeper, because he didn't know any better, but he was used mightily of God. Even Ellen White was a Sundaykeeper in her early years.
Revelation is progressive, and the human race was plunged into terrible darkness for a long time. God had to bring us back gradually.
But getting back to the question of what makes up the spirit of prophecy (generic term), I'd say it's the Bible and the writings of EGW. While there have been a few others who might have exhibited the true gift of prophecy (the Eskimo prophet comes to mind), they didn't put a body of work into writing for us to use like the Bible writers and Ellen White did.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/28/03 07:30 AM
Satan quoted scripture to Jesus. So not everything a false prophet says is all wrong. We must learn to discern both good and evil. Sister White was able to glean good from authors whose books contained a mixture of good and bad.
GC 587.1
"We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not change its nature. On the contrary, it is rendered more dangerous, as it is more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan's devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility."
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 08:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Satan quoted scripture to Jesus. So not everything a false prophet says is all wrong. We must learn to discern both good and evil. Sister White was able to glean good from authors whose books contained a mixture of good and bad.
Mike: While it is true that satan quoted scripture, he drew deceptive conclutions from the texts and thus made what once was good wrong.
John: If Martin Luther was excluded from being part of the Spirit of Prophecy becourse he didnt have all the truth, then we are imediately implying that Ellen had it all and that there is nothing more for her to learn about Gods truth in earth recreated.
Also, I think it would be safe to say that all the bible authors didnt have all the truth, and they are still in the bible. For instance Daniel and John, where John partly builds on the foundation of Daniel. So it would appear that John had more truth than Daniel about end times, and none of them wrote as detaljed as Ellen did. So who had all the truth that got them the ticket into acceptance as part of Spirit of Prophecy?
Is the fact that someone is catholic sufficient reason to say that they bear bad fruit? If im not compleately wrong, augustine lived before or at the time of the split of the church in east and west, was there a catholic church before that?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/27/03 09:28 PM
Sister White was not shown all truth, nor did she grasp all truth. But all that she was shown is all true. She never misapplied the truth she was shown or understood. Augustine and Luther on the other hand often misunderstood and misapplied the truth. That is not to say the truth they misunderstood and misapplied was wrong. But rather the way they understood and applied it was sometimes wrong. Not so with Sister White. Was she personally infallible?. Not at all. "All have sinned." But her inspired writings reflect the infallible truths of God.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/28/03 12:05 AM
Thomas,
The crucial, vital difference in what we're talking about here comes down to whether a person has the genuine gift of being a prophet of God, or not. All the Bible writers had this, all were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit in a special way. They were His direct mouthpieces.
People like Wycliffe, Huss, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Tyndale, John Wesley, etc. while used mightily by God, didn't have this type of inspiration. There were flaws in their writings, in their doctrines. Some of the early SDA pioneers had flaws in their thinking as well.
Catholic doctrine is by definition flawed. There are Catholics who will be saved, who are living up to all the light they have the best they know how. But the system itself is in opposition to God, with its earthly system of priests, their continual supposed offering up of Christ's sacrifice through the eucharist, "changing times and laws", etc. etc. etc.
Ellen White did have direct inspiration from God. While she didn't possess "all truth" (no limited human does), what she wrote agrees totally with "the law and the testimony", as Mike said.
That's why the Bible, and her writings, are on a higher level than anything else. With the Bible being highest of all, certainly, and her writings being a step down from that, but still above anything else written by mankind. They're directly inspired by God, in the highest sense. Nothing else on earth can compare.
Posted By: R.A.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/28/03 04:17 AM
quote
___________________________
Originally posted by Thomas
Who besides the authors of the Bible and Ellen would you consider as contributors to the Spirit of Prophecy
In my limited experience you have rightly named the two sources that have been contributors to the body of work known as the Spirit of Prophecy, being 100% correct in their prophesies.
Posted By: whitlie
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/29/03 10:07 AM
Vastergotland,
you are partially incorrect, concerning the implication of Mrs. White having all the light,then.
She makes it abundantly clear that new light is to come after her day. See Counsels to Writers and Editors 33-52. Further she went so far as to say another messenger would come after her.
that there was to be special light for God's people as they neared the closing scenes of this earth's history. Another angel was to come from heaven with a message and the whole earth was to be lightened with his glory. It would be impossible for us to state just how this additional light would come. It might come in a very unexpected manner, in a way that would not agree with the ideas that many have conceived. It is not at all unlikely, or contrary to the ways and works of God to send light to His people in unexpected ways. E G White Materials . vol.1 page 239.
This is a most difficult statement for Seventh-day Adventist to accept.
The Spirit of Prophecy is given to those who are called to add to past Inpiration. This ofcourse when measured with
Peter II 1:18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
Peter II 1:19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Peter II 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
Peter II 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
God is particular to whom he gives his Spirit in these matters.
Blessings Whitlie
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/30/03 10:34 PM
Hi whitlie
You are right, the assumptions I had are not right and you and Mike have made good points. It not being about having it all but about how what one has is used. And I believe you are right, some day before the end God will send word to the Church as a whole agian.
Im still wondering though, for the entire time between the death of John the apostle and the calling of Ellen, did God really have nothing to say to the Church that was important enough to send a prophet to say it?
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 11/30/03 11:01 PM
whitlie,
You said:
quote:
you are partially incorrect, concerning the implication of Mrs. White having all the light,then.
She makes it abundantly clear that new light is to come after her day. See Counsels to Writers and Editors 33-52. Further she went so far as to say another messenger would come after her.
Where did Ellen White say that another messenger would come after her?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 12/01/03 04:24 AM
Here is the quote:
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 239, paragraph 1
I did not desire to definitely state these particulars in the conference for the delegates to garble and misconstrue; but I said enough in regard to what the Lord had been pleased to show me. I stated that I was a stock holder and I could not let the resolution pass, that there was to be special light for God's people as they neared the closing scenes of this earth's history. Another angel was to come from heaven with a message and the whole earth was to be lightened with his glory. It would be impossible for us to state just how this additional light would come. It might come in a very unexpected manner, in a way that would not agree with the ideas that many have conceived. It is not at all unlikely, or contrary to the ways and works of God to send light to His people in unexpected ways. Would it be right that every avenue should be closed in our school so that the students could not have the benefit of this light? the resolution was not called for.
Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen, page 334, paragraph 2
I stated that I was a stockholder and I could not let the resolution pass, that there was to be special light for God's people as they neared the closing scenes of this earth's history. Another angel was to come from heaven with a message, and the whole earth was to be lightened with his glory. It would be impossible for us to state just how this additional light would come. It might come in a very unexpected manner, in a way that would not agree with the ideas that many have conceived. It is not at all unlikely, or contrary to the ways and works of God, to send light to His people in unexpected ways. Would it be right that every avenue should be closed in our school so that the students could not have the benefit of this light? The resolution was not called for .--Letter 22, 1889. White Estate Washington, D. C. May 17, 1984
The following quote clarifies who "another angel" is - the angel of Rev 18, not some new modern day prophet.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 20, 1904, paragraph 2
We see before us a special work to be done in the time when the whole earth shall be filled with the light and the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. The prophecies in the eighteenth of Revelation will soon be fulfilled. During the proclamation of the third angel's message, "another angel" is to "come down from heaven, having great power;" and the earth is to be "lightened with the glory." The Spirit of the Lord will so graciously and universally bless consecrated human instrumentalities, that men, women, and children will open their lips in praise and testimony, filling the earth with the knowledge of God, and with his unsurpassed glory, as the waters cover the sea.
Revelation
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
[ November 30, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 12/01/03 05:02 AM
CW 35.1
New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.--Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34. (1892.)
CW 45.2
God has not passed His people by, and chosen one solitary man here and another there as the only ones worthy to be entrusted with His truth. He does not give one man new light contrary to the established faith of the body. In every reform men have arisen making this claim. Paul warned the church in his day, "Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." The greatest harm to God's people comes through those who go out from among them speaking perverse things. Through them the way of truth is evil spoken of.
CW 49.3
Satan hopes to involve the remnant people of God in the general ruin that is coming upon the earth. As the coming of Christ draws nigh, he will be more determined and decisive in his efforts to overthrow them. Men and women will arise professing to have some new light or some new revelation, whose tendency is to unsettle faith in the old landmarks. Their doctrines will not bear the test of God's word, yet souls will be deceived. False reports will be circulated, and some will be taken in this snare. They will believe these rumors, and in their turn will repeat them, and thus a link will be formed connecting them with the archdeceiver. This spirit will not always be manifested in an open defiance of the messages that God sends, but a settled unbelief is expressed in many ways. Every false statement that is made feeds and strengthens this unbelief, and through this means many souls will be balanced in the wrong direction.-- Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 295, 296. (1885.)
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 12/01/03 09:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
The following quote clarifies who "another angel" is - the angel of Rev 18, not some new modern day prophet.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 20, 1904, paragraph 2
We see before us a special work to be done in the time when the whole earth shall be filled with the light and the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. The prophecies in the eighteenth of Revelation will soon be fulfilled. During the proclamation of the third angel's message, "another angel" is to "come down from heaven, having great power;" and the earth is to be "lightened with the glory." The Spirit of the Lord will so graciously and universally bless consecrated human instrumentalities, that men, women, and children will open their lips in praise and testimony, filling the earth with the knowledge of God, and with his unsurpassed glory, as the waters cover the sea.
Revelation
18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
I dont know if it is just me who understood it like this, this "another angle" will not be or cause one modern day prophet to arrise but many of every age and gender. Of course, if you see Ellen as the last of the prophets, this could be worse than God sending just one prophet after her. Also, this description sounds very close to what I read the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be like. It almost seems there will be a day when adventists will not only the people of the book or the people of the sabbath but the people with the Holy Spirit.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 12/02/03 08:31 AM
The message of the angel of Rev 18 calls people out of Babylon just before probation closes, just before the plagues are poured out. It's a message that warns people against receiving the mark of the beast.
"The three angels' messages are to be combined, giving their threefold light to the world. In the Revelation, John says, "I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory."... This represents the giving of the last and threefold message of warning to the world. {Mar 173.4}
"Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God still in Babylon will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world; and it will accomplish its work. When those that "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:12), shall be left to receive strong delusion and to believe a lie, then the light of truth will shine upon all whose hearts are open to receive it, and all the children of the Lord that remain in Babylon will heed the call: "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4). {Mar 173.5}
"At the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. {Mar 170.1}
"The commencement of that time of trouble," here mentioned, does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out. {Mar 170.2}
Posted By: Charity
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 01/26/04 02:14 AM
Thomas, more than once I’ve been meaning post here. Better late than never.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Here is what the son of Ellen White said regarding the spirit or gift of prophecy and in regard to the other gifts of the Spirit as well. This was written and published while Ellen White was still alive in J Edson White’s book ‘Past, Present and Future’. He agrees with your last post. His statement below regarding the cause of the present dearth of the gifts in the church is accurate and poignant I think.
quote:
Is it then too much to say that the church, to be perfect, must have in lively exercise the gifts of the Spirit of God? And is not the church, so long as she is lacking in these gifts, disqualified to just that degree for the work committed to her? Candor admits of but one answer to this question.
Certainly the church with Christ as its head, ought to be in a position to have fulfilled through her members the words of her Lord, “He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father.” John 14:12.
But it may be asked, “Why are the various manifestations of miraculous power not more frequently seen in the church, if indeed it is true that the gifts were given for all time?” The answer is not far to seek. Mark tells us that the apostles ‘went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.’ Mark 16:20.
Observe that the Lord confirmed “the word with signs following.” Then only as the word is preached can we expect to see the signs. Therefore, just in proportion as the church departed from the primitive simplicity of the gospel, were the gifts gradually withdrawn. J Edson white, Past, Present and Future, pages 355 and 356.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 01/26/04 04:00 AM
Good points Mark. On a related note, the Bible tells us that God sends prophets to His people when they're keeping His law; and that when they depart from it, He stops sending prophets.
"Her gates are sunk into the ground; He hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the Lord." Lamentations 2:9
"Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients." Ezekiel 7:26
"Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye come to enquire of Me? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you. . . .
...the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness: they walked not in My statutes, and they despised My judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and My sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out My fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. . . .
Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you." Ezekiel 20:3,13,30,31
"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Proverbs 29:18
It's no coincidence that God sent Ellen White to a movement that was making an effort to restore obedience to His law, including the long-neglected 4th commandment.
[edit - added verse to Ezek. 20 passage, corrected error in chapter number]
[ January 26, 2004, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: John ]
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 01/26/04 06:12 PM
Hi Mark & John
Thanks for the quotes provided. It would follow from them that a person who does Gods will would experience the power of God in their lives and in the lives of them who they pray for. I had thought to make the question of why so few adventists seem to have this power, but then realised that they may be many indeed but unknown for most others. May God give me the strength to be one of them.
/Thomas
Posted By: Charity
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 01/27/04 12:36 PM
Amen Thomas. Let's all pray for each other. BTW, I've appreciated your signiture text from Psalm 13 ever since I first noticed it. It's one of those 'great and precious promises,' isn't it.
Posted By: whitlie
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 01/30/04 11:51 PM
In looking at how Mrs white uses "human instrementalities" in T M 509
The continued communication of the Holy Spirit to the church is represented by the prophet Zechariah under another figure, which contains a wonderful lesson of encouragement for us. The prophet says: "The angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, and said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? . . . Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. . . . And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? . . . Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." {TM 509.1}
From the two olive trees, the golden oil was emptied through golden pipes into the bowl of the candlestick and thence into the golden lamps that gave light to the sanctuary. So from the holy ones that stand in God's presence, His Spirit is imparted to human instrumentalities that are consecrated to His service. The mission of the two anointed ones is to communicate light and power to God's people. It is to receive blessing for us that they stand in God's presence. As the olive trees empty themselves into the golden pipes, so the heavenly messengers seek to communicate all that they receive from God. The whole heavenly treasure awaits our demand and reception; and as we receive the blessing, we in our turn are to impart it. Thus it is that the holy lamps are fed, and the church becomes a light bearer in the world. {TM 510.1}
Mrs,White points to the Olive trees as the anointed one, the golden pipes as Human instrumentalites, the bowl contains the oil that is sent through the tubes (ministry) to thelamps which are typified as the church. Rev. 1:20
It seems the Spirit of Interpretation of the Scriptures is the work of these Human instrumentalities, (tm510) and it is through them that Present truth is found. She also states that it was this Golden bowl vision of Zech. 4 that the five wise virgins got their oil.
11-14 (Matt. 25:1-13). Oil Purifies the Soul.--We all need to study as never before the parable of the ten virgins. Five of them were wise, and five were foolish. The wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. This is the holy oil represented in Zechariah [Zech. 4:11-14 quoted]. This representation is of the highest consequence to those who claim to know the truth. But if we do not practise the truth, we have not received the holy oil, which the two golden pipes empty out of themselves. The oil is received into vessels prepared for the oil. It is the Holy Spirit in the heart which works by love and purifies the soul. . . . {4BC 1179.6}
What is this Oil?
Oil Conveyed Through Messages.--[Zech. 4:1-3, 11-14 quoted.] By the holy beings surrounding His throne, the Lord keeps up a constant communication with the inhabitants of the earth. The golden oil represents the grace with which God keeps the lamps of believers supplied. Were it not that this holy oil is poured from heaven in the messages of God's Spirit, the agencies of evil would have entire control over men. God is dishonored when we do not receive the communications that He sends us. Thus we refuse the golden oil which He would pour into our souls to be communicated to those in darkness (RH Feb. 3, 1903). {4BC 1179.8}
"From the two olive trees the golden oil was emptied through the golden pipes into the bowl of the candlestick, and thence into the golden lamps that gave light to the sanctuary. So from the holy ones that stand in God's presence His Spirit is imparted to the human instrumentalities who are consecrated to His service. The mission of the two anointed ones is to communicate to God's people that heavenly grace which alone can make His word a lamp to the feet and a light to the path. "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts." Zech. 4:6. {COL 408.1}
It would seem that another Angel being sent with a message is another consecrated human instrementality, as was the prophets, etc. and Ellen G. White.
Especially since Scripture is not of private interpretation, furth I would imagine that such a prophet would not be acceptable as were the ancients who were killed because the message they bore was so strong in their generations.
Whitlie
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/13/05 12:15 AM
Bumping thread for continued use.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/13/05 12:39 AM
Responding to the original question, the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus, so if we testify of Jesus we have the spirit of prophesy. So in a sense, whenever we tell the truth about Christ, it could be said we have the spirit of prophesy. OTOH as an identifying mark of the remnant church, it is understood to have been specifically fulfilled in the ministry of Ellen White, which understanding I believe is correct.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/13/05 12:47 AM
Tom
I think your first answere is the most correct one considdering what I can see in the bibel about it.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/13/05 05:47 PM
What is the difference between prophesy and prophecy?
What is the difference between the testimony of Jesus and the spirit of prophecy?
Revelation
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/14/05 06:10 AM
"Prophesy" has an "s" whereas "prophecy" has a "c" (the first spelling is more creative).
The terms "spirit of prophecy" and "testimony of Jesus" are used interchangeably, as far as I'm aware. So they describe the same thing.
"Prophecy" means to promulgate truth. "Spirit" has many different meanings. I think hear it means "heart", so one could say, "the heart of prophecy" is the "testimony of Jesus", and the meaning would not be changed. I think what "testimony of Jesus" means is self-evident.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/16/05 01:32 AM
Mike wrote
quote:
Thomas, as to my question to you - thank you for answering it. Your previous posts seem to imply that are times when Sister White contradicts the Bible. If I've misunderstood your position please set the record straight. Do you know of any instances where she does contradict the Bible? In what way is her prophetic gift less biblical or authoritative than John's?
Ellen contradicting the bible, I dont know as I havent read everything, or even very much of what she has written. However people at times make quotes that make it appear as if she contradicted the bible. But that has already been commented on in the other thread.
I have a question for you, what was the purpose of Ellens ministry and what was the purpose of Johns? Does Revelation say anything about its purpose? Does Ellen write anything about her calling? These questions answered will make it possible to give a more proper answere to your last question.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/16/05 07:21 PM
Tom, actually "prophesy" is a verb. It denotes proclaiming the truth about prophecy (noun). And, I agree that the "spirit" of prophecy includes having a heart or passion for sharing the prophecies already recorded in the Bible. But, I think it has more to do with God giving a prophet new visions and dreams.
The difference between "having" the testimony of Jesus Christ and "having" the spirit of prophecy is, I believe, the difference between manifesting the character of Jesus and receiving dreams and visions from Jesus to share with others.
Do you see what I mean?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/16/05 07:27 PM
On page one of this thread I posted the following:
quote:
posted October 05, 2003 05:56 PM
But it would seem from the examples posted above that the phrase "the spirit of prophecy" is an experience rather than an office, a verb (action word) rather than a noun (person, place or thing), a process rather than a product.
In other words, the spirit or mind of a prophet is what enables him to receive a prophecy. Notice the different spellings - prophecy vs. prophesy. Prophecy is the message itself whereas prophesy is proclaiming it. Anybody with the gift to teach or preach can prophesy, but only those with the spirit or gift of prophecy can receive a prophecy.
So, is Sister White the only person with the spirit of prophecy? Well, certainly she is the only person God has used extinsively since John the Revelator. There have no doubt been people who have experienced the spirit of prophecy on a limited or localized scale, but Sister White seems to be the lsat person God has used in wide scale fashion. I suspect though that there will be more people gifted with the spirit of prophecy before Jesus returns.
What do you think?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/16/05 09:45 PM
Mike:Tom, actually "prophesy" is a verb. It denotes proclaiming the truth about prophecy (noun). And, I agree that the "spirit" of prophecy includes having a heart or passion for sharing the prophecies already recorded in the Bible. But, I think it has more to do with God giving a prophet new visions and dreams.
Tom:I never noticed the verb/noun thing. No wonder I was confused!
Prophesy has a broader meaning than receiving dreams or visions. I understand its primary meaning to be to promulgate truth. One can be a prophet without receiving dreams for visions. For example, EGW refered to Waggoner and Jones as "prophets", although they did not have the prophetic office she had, and as far as we know did not receive any dreams or visions.
Mike:The difference between "having" the testimony of Jesus Christ and "having" the spirit of prophecy is, I believe, the difference between manifesting the character of Jesus and receiving dreams and visions from Jesus to share with others.
Tom:Again, there's no necessity to receive dreams and visions to be a prophet, in the broad sense of the term. In the strict sense of the word, I agree with you. Viewing the text in terms of an identification of the remenant church, I agree with you too.
Here's something Clarke says, which is kind of interesting:
quote:
the spirit of prophecy is a general testimony concerning Jesus, for he is the scope and design of the whole Scripture; to him gave all the prophets witness. Take Jesus, his grace, Spirit, and religion out of the Bible, and it has neither scope, design, object, nor end.
from http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev19.htm
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/17/05 06:32 AM
There's no difference between "having" the testimony of Jesus Christ and "having" the spirit of prophecy. They're one and the same thing:
"...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10.
And both are the spiritual gift of prophecy, as manifested in Ellen White, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/17/05 07:06 AM
The Bible tells us God is love, yet that doesn't mean love is God. One can have the testimony of Jesus without having the gift of prophesy, can't one? That is, the text tells us that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus (i.e. it testifies of Him) but one can testify of Christ without having the spiritual gift Moses, John the Baptist, etc. had.
Posted By: Will
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/17/05 07:57 AM
How come Sister White was the last one we know of to have the Spirit of Prophecy? I find something off with what the Bible says regarding the Spirit of Prophecy and how man is applying it. Consider what the Bible says:
quote:
10 and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Verse 10 states that it is a group of people that have the spirit of prophecy.
Prophecy in verse 10 means the following:
quote:
1) prophecy
a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
Examples used in the Bible for the phrase of prophecy as revealed in verse 10 can be seen found on the following link:
Of Prophecy
After reading the verses the spirit of prophecy enables people to utter divinely inspired words from God to give to the people. The examples of the verses using "of prophecy" clearly indicate and point to prophets and their messages given by God to kings,rulers, and people. This is the real deal!
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/17/05 03:46 PM
What about the things Paul write in 1 Corintians? It appears he meant that prophecy should be more common in a christian community than tounges is in your average pentecostal church.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/17/05 09:01 PM
Tom, in 1 Corinthians 1:6,7 Paul calls "the testimony of Christ" a "gift," as in a spiritual gift. So in Bible parlance, the "testimony of Christ," or "testimony of Jesus" is more than merely having something to say about Jesus. It is the actual gift of prophecy.
This is seen again by comparing Revelation 19:10 with Revelation 22:9 --
Revelation 19:10
"...thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus..."
Revelation 22:9
"...thy brethren the prophets..."
We need to let the Bible define its own terms.
Thomas, Paul didn't say that prophecy should be more common than tongues. He said that it was a more preferred, higher gift.
(For that matter, the "tongues" that are seen in Pentecostal churches today aren't the true gift of tongues at all; they're a satanic counterfeit.)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/18/05 06:26 AM
This is from Clarke's commentary:
quote:
The testimony of Christ is the Gospel which the apostle had preached, and which had been confirmed by various gifts of the Holy Spirit, and miracles wrought by the apostle.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/18/05 11:15 PM
I agree with John here. Of course the "testimony of Jesus" is the "word of God", because this is implied by the parallelism (Rev. 1:2; 1:9). It could refer to the word of God as received through a prophet (that is, the message), or to the word of God as received by a prophet (that is, the gift). But Rev. 12:17 and 19:10 are referring to the latter. The indicatives for this are:
1) How could the mere possession of the Word of God be a distinctive trait of any particular religious group, since all christian religious groups have the word of God?
2) It is specifically said that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, which means not the word of prophecy, but the gift of prophecy.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/19/05 01:26 AM
The spirit of prophecy <=> the gift of prophecy. There is a common thread here that do link both of these and also join in with the average believer (if not today so at least in Johns day).
Could it be that the Spirit of prophecy is the giver of the gift of prophecy, the Holy Spirit that is to indwell and lead all believers after baptism? This would include John aswell as Ellen but not only that, it ought to also include all of us who are christians participating in this thread.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/19/05 02:21 PM
Thomas,
"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".
Wouldn't it be rather unusual for a Person to be called a testimony?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 06:50 AM
The "faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12) and the "testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17) are identifying characteristics of God's last day church - the SDA church.
What does it mean to have the faith of Jesus? I believe it means to excerise the same kind of saving faith that Jesus exercised.
By comparison, I also believe it makes sense to conclude that having the "testimony of Jesus" means to have the same kind of testimony that Jesus had, namely, "the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30) This can and must be our testimony, too.
However, it seems clear to me that the use of the phrase "having the testimony of Jesus" in the Revelation means that the SDA church possesses, and rightly employs, the prophetic writings of Sister White. That is, the Church will not, in the end, make of "none effect" her inspired counsel and testimonies. Amen.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/19/05 09:51 PM
Rosangela
It would indeed be unusual, but not impossible. Remember that Jesus is called the "word", and the purpose of the Spirits work on earth is to testify about Jesus.
quote:
John 16 5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/19/05 09:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
However, it seems clear to me that the use of the phrase "having the testimony of Jesus" in the Revelation means that the SDA church possesses, and rightly employs, the prophetic writings of Sister White. That is, the Church will not, in the end, make of "none effect" her inspired counsel and testimonies. Amen.
Mike,
The best sollution is maybe to agree to disagree and leave it at that...
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 06:45 AM
Can anyone present an argument that the Testimony of Jesus = the Spirit of Prophesy is referring to Ellen White in a way which would be plausible to a non-Adventist?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 07:32 AM
One convincing evidence is the concept of 'the gathering prophet,' i.e. the way God often sends a prophet at the beginning of a prophetic time period, and then sends another one at the end of that same time period, to proclaim the ending of the period as being present truth for that time, and to gather and lead a 'remnant.'
See the Stephen Bohr study on this at
http://members.cox.net/jhowardjr/sda/Bohr_time_prophecies.pdf and the Clark Floyd article "The Gathering," in the April 2004 issue of
Our Firm Foundation, p. 4.
http://www.hopeint.org/foundation/OFF1904w.pdf Ellen White's ministry began right when a prophet of God was supposed to show up; right at the termination of the 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8:14. And that was her primary message, that the sanctuary was commencing to be cleansed, the judgment of God's people was beginning. Present truth for that time (and ours still). She led out a remnant, which became the SDA Church.
Posted By: Will
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 07:39 AM
I will check those out John, and thanks for providing that information.
One thing that I am wondering is what about today? Will the Spirit of Prophecy be seen in someone or people?
I was thinking that between the last book of the Old Testament and the New Testament there was roughly 400 some odd years with no prophet, and am wondering if that is a parallel we are seeing today.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 08:59 AM
John H
Do you know anything about the acceptance rate among non-sda for this information? I imagen that a person who accepts Ellen as a prophet would soon become an sda. Also, once you convince someone that it was time to raise a prophet around then, how do you proceed to show that this prophet was Ellen? There isnt exactly any lack of wouldbe prophets from the mid 19th century.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/20/05 05:40 PM
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. As soon as I read "The Desire of Ages" I was convinsed she was divinely inspired. I wasn't an SDA at the time and didn't know anything about her. It was just clear to me from reading the book.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 06:05 AM
Amen, Tom.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 12:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Can anyone present an argument that the Testimony of Jesus = the Spirit of Prophesy is referring to Ellen White in a way which would be plausible to a non-Adventist?
--------------
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. As soon as I read "The Desire of Ages" I was convinsed she was divinely inspired. I wasn't an SDA at the time and didn't know anything about her. It was just clear to me from reading the book.
So the answere to your first question is to read the Desire of Ages?
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 12:59 AM
I wasn't wishing to pass off my experience as a universal solution. Everybody's experience is different. It was just a personal testimony.
However, I think the concept that "the proof is in the pudding" is valid. If one reads the Bible, and doesn't perceive the voice of God, how would you convince someone otherwise? Similarly with the Spirit of Prophecy I think.
In the final analysis, the onus is on God to communicate what is or what is not truth to us. We choose whether or not be believe what He's telling us.
Posted By: Will
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 01:05 AM
I'm still wondering why we have no messenger today, or prophets today. Actually allow me to rephrase that. Does the SDA church acknowledge that there are other prophes and messengers but refuse to say anything. This can also lead to the sticky situation of if there is\are messengers\prophets that do and have passed the test according to the Bible then what is going on? Is someone holding back? What is the reason for doing so?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 01:26 AM
But Tom
Asking "is Ellen a prophet" is very different from asking "Can anyone present an argument that the Testimony of Jesus = the Spirit of Prophesy is referring to Ellen White in a way which would be plausible to a non-Adventist?" There have been many prophets troughout bible history and likely many many more of whom we know nothing today but to pick one, Ellen, and say that she is THE Spirit of Prophecy as some SDA have for habbit of doing... The proof of prophethood may be in the pudding but for the other question, Im not sure the pudding is even on the same table that is being searched...
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 01:28 AM
Will
I have to agree with you. It is indeed strange that a movement that talks so much of the spiritual gift of prophecy would only admit one prophet for the past 200 years...
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 01:45 AM
Ellen White herself refered to Jones and Waggoner as "prophets". In a loose sense, a prophet is simply one who has a message of God. The gift of prophecy is the gift of speaking truth. That's the broad sense of the word.
In a more limited sense, there is the office of a prophet who speaks or writes under divine inspiration, and on this point I agree with the SDA church that Ellen White alone has had this gift.
So I'm agreeing with points made on both sides.
But while I believe that Ellen White was divinely inspired, I have no doubt whatsoever that God has many prophets (say small "s" "spirit of prophecy") and we should be open and willing to receive the truth from God's messengers.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 04:59 PM
There are some characteristics of a true prophet to which we should be attentive:
1) "You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16).
2) "And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him" (Acts 5:32).
We do not claim that Ellen White is the only one who will ever possess the gift of prophecy in the SDA movement. We claim she was the only one up till now. But it seems there will be more people with this gift when the Holy Spirit is poured out in the last days:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit. And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes" (Joel 2:28-31).
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 05:49 PM
Joel 2 is being fulfilled. The gift Ellen White received is not the only gift God has to give out. In Ellen White's lifetime, she herself was positively impacted by gifts the Lord was giving to others.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/22/05 06:04 AM
As far as I know, the latter rain hasn't yet begun and Joel 2 refers to the latter rain.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/22/05 06:36 AM
According to the Spirit of Prophesy, the message of Jones and Waggoner was the beginning of the latter rain. I think she made the statement in 1892.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Spirit of Prophesy - 09/21/05 11:27 PM
According to Peter the Apostle, Joel 2 started to be fullfilled during a pentecost celebration some 2000 years ago, if the assumption that Joel 2 is talking about the latter rain, its been raining for close to two thousand years.
The two texts posted about the recognition of a prophet... arent these in a general sence how to recognise any other christian aswell?
/Thomas