Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
Posted By: Daryl
Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 01/04/04 02:18 AM
Here is a link to a response by the BRI on
"Ellen G. White and the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation": http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/WhiteInterDaniel&Rev.htm This is where we can examine and discuss the information provided in the above link.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 01/05/04 07:48 AM
Two thumbs up from this corner. They could have expounded a bit more on the origins of the futurist and preterist schools of thought, seemed to me; since those were dreamed up by two Jesuits, Alcazar and Ribera. But that's a minor quibble, such info is available elsewhere.
I liked the way they answered the dual-fulfillments theory.
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/08/04 07:00 AM
There is definitely a end-time fulfillment of many of the prophecies in Revelation that, for some reason, have been declared to have been fulfilled in the past by most of us SDAs.
It sure makes Bible study easier to just lean on others' Bible work.
For one example:
While admitting that the 2 Witnesses can refer to the Old and New Testaments of the Bible in many instances, it cannot be the complete fulfillment. The complete fulfillment will definitely be future.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/09/04 04:34 AM
Ok: I'll bite, Daniel: How will the Two Witnesses prophecy be fulfillied again?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/09/04 05:25 AM
Ohayo Ikan-san (good morning),
Here's your sandwich
![[Tasty]](graemlins/tasty.gif)
Please keep in mind that i DO agree that the traditional interpretation of the two witnesses is correct - for the people who were waiting for their Lord to come in 1843/4. However, i would like to raise some points showing the final fulfillment is yet future to 2004.
William Miller has several rules for interpreting prophecy in "Views of the Prophecies and Prophetic Chronology Selected from Manuscripts of William Miller with a Memoir of His Life", and this one (#13) is especially relevant to my interpreting the two witnesses differently from tradition.
quote:
To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfilment of a prophecy. If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfilment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed
Let's look at it. Revelation 11. First of all, the timing is way off for this to have happened in the 1700s. The timing for chapter 11 is DURING the 7 angels blowing their trumpets. This particular event is the SECOND woe. Speaking in 2004, have the other events like the hail and fire mingled with blood (8:7), a great mountain burning with fire being thrown into the sea and a third of the sea becoming blood (8:8), or even the first woe of the 5 months of nasty little stinging things (9:1) already happened?
11:3 Please notice, they only prophesy 1260 days (or years if that is the interpretation), then they are finished.
11:5 Many people even today hurt the Bible with spurious translations etc. but i haven't heard of anyone being burnt. And no, this isn't talking about burning them when Jesus comes back, because many of those who despised and hurt the Bible have died peacefully.
11:6 Notice it says: "in the days of their prophecy". Again, is this supposed to mean that their prophesying ended in 1798???
11:7 Has the Bible finished it's testimony??? Has the beast ascended out of the bottomless pit yet?
11:8 Was our Lord crucified in Paris?
11:9,10 Not very many peoples or nations saw the dead bodies of the Bible in the 1700s.
11:10 Lots of wicked men lived between 538 and 1798 who weren't tormented at all by the Bible.
11:11 Did the Bible not have any Spirit of Life for 3 1/2 years in the 1700s???
11:12 How many people saw the Bible going up to heaven in the 1700s?
11:13 Did a tenth of Paris fall in an earthquake around 1798? Did those left give glory to God??
11:14 If this was finished in 1798 or so, then we should look for the 3rd woe coming quickly. Has it come?
So just applying William Miller's own rules for interpreting the Scriptures, we see that the two witnesses prophecy has not been fulfilled yet here in 2004.
Any comments about this would be highly appreciated.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/10/04 11:30 AM
Danielw-san,
I was wondering if you might share your perspective as to the description of the "two-witnesses" of Revelation 11:4 and the vision shown to the prophet Zechariah in Zech 4:3, 11-14.
Posted By: whitlie
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 02:08 AM
Bob,
Taking the two references separately, Zech. points to the need for the Spirit of Prophecy, while the other, Rev. 11:4 points to a movement that is (to my understanding) yet future, but both very much related.
Just my looking at the references in EGW's work, We are told.
1, the ten virgins got their extra oil from Zech. 4. While all had lamps, the five wise had a vessel containing extra oil. (See Matt. 25. Christ Object Lesson, 406, Plus)
2. The G.C. 266 points out the olive trees are the old and new testament
3, The Pipes which the oil flows through are human instrumentalites, (prophet messengers) that gather the oil and pour it into the bowl. TM 510
4, The "Oil" from the olives trees is messages sent to the bowl. 4 BC. 1180
5, The tubes feeding the lamp is the ministry gathering present truth to feed the flock. EW.63,49. Christ Object Lessons 418.
6, The Lamp is the church Rev. 1:19,20.
7, The bowl and lampstand are gold, showing there is no error found with in.
A message that comes from any direction than from the Golden bowl would contain error, common fire being fed to the church. Such would receive the punishment of Nadab and Abihue.
This short study can be found by looking in the SCripture index of Ellen G. Whites Writings.
Henry.
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 05:14 AM
The two witnesses Zechariah saw while in vision are: "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
It seems obvious that these are two "beings" as they "stand".
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 05:32 AM
Danielw,
Would you not conclude that the similarities in both descriptions would lead you to believe that they are the same beings?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 05:59 AM
Yes, it does seem that the 2 witnesses in Zechariah are the same 2 witnesses in Revelation 11.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 06:07 AM
Then would it not also be correct to conclude that these "beings" existed prior to the existence of the Scriptures?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 06:46 AM
It looks like Zechariah was given a vision of them in his day - B.C. 500 or something. So these 2 beings were "standing" in heaven in 500BC.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 07:13 AM
Do you see these beings as "literal" or "symbolic"?
If literal, then were the actual created beings, anointed for a specific purpose"
or....
If symbolic, what did they represent?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 07:33 AM
Just by reading Zechariah, they sure seem to be literal beings, because he saw them "standing".
While this conversation is directly related to the 2 witnesses, we aren't directly on Revelation 11 of which discussion was the original intent...
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 09:24 AM
It was not my intention to divert from the primary theme of this topic. I was only pointing out that the Bible does provide some information that assists us in identifying these "two witnesses".
It would appear that these "two witnesses" are NOT the Old and New Testament.....Wouldn't you agree?
Please proceed....
I am very curious as to how you interpret the fulfillment of this particular prophecy.
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 11:16 AM
Yes, Bob-san
This is what i wrote in my first post on this:
quote:
Please keep in mind that i DO agree that the traditional interpretation of the two witnesses is correct - for the people who were waiting for their Lord to come in 1843/4. However, i would like to raise some points showing the final fulfillment is yet future to 2004.
You see, i've spent hundreds of hours on Miller's books, typing them in letter by letter, and know that he definitely was led of God. Of course God said the same thing thru Ellen White. However, what was correct in 1843, may NOT be the final correct interpretation of these prophecies. You see, he had to have EVERYTHING in Revelation finished by 1843. That's why he had the papal beast being slain, destroyed, in 1798. If he could only see resurgence now!!!
So yes, the OT & NT are correct interpretations of Revelation -- for those living in 1843. Is that the only fulfillment? Many Bible prophecies have fulfillments at different times, and clearly most all of them have some bearing on the end of time, when Satan will bring all his power to sweep the whole world into his net. If we think that these prophecies have mostly all been completely fulfilled in the past, we stand a big chance of being taken in when they do occur - as written.
What are your thots on points i raised about Revelation 11? Does it seem to you that some things written there have not been fulfilled yet here in 2004? Is it all in the past? Before jumping to the conclusion, i'd like to see if i have fairly described the particulars in each verse or not.
BTW, here in Japan there is almost noone to discuss deep spiritual things with, and i'm very happy to be here on this forum. I just want to make sure i'm following all the rules.... ![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 11:46 AM
Danielw-san
I read your previous posts with some interest. I am aware of the unique interpretations provided by a Miller and EGw.
In all honesty, I must admit that I am not in agreement with these interpretaions. The reason for this is that when these prophecies are viewed in the sequence in which they were presented, it can be easily seen that they have not been fulfilled and that they are future.
Nor do I also believe that these these prophecies in Revelation 11 are of dual-fulfillment.
Let me share with you a quick point as to how I have arrived at this conclusion.
As you have pointed out, the "two witnesses" are presented as one of the "woes" that are part of the the blowing of the "seventh trumpet" which is part of the opening of the "seventh seal".
Now if we were to back up a bit and take a look at the "sixth seal"(Rev 6:12-17) we would find that this particular prophecy is describing the time of the Second Coming of Christ.
In Chapter 7 that follows it is shown that the righteous will be in heaven after the fulfillment of the 6th Seal.
This can only mean that whatever events are depicted in the 7th seal will befall this earth and its remaining inhabitants. Those remaining inhabitants will be the Wicked who have been left behind after the Second Coming.
At the opening of the Seventh Seal, the Seven Trumpets are blown in sequence, which means that these prophetic events will be fulfilled after the Second Coming(sixth seal).
This means that the fulfillment of the "two witnesses" takes place after the Second Coming of Christ,when all the Righteous have been redeemed from this earht.
As you have probably realized by now, my understanding of prophecy is quite different from that of the traditional SDA interpretation.
One other point that I would like to bring out. I do not understand all of the particulars of how these future prophecies will be fulfilled, nor do I think that it was meant to be understood.
Jesus said that He foretold of future events so that when the event actual happened, then we would understand that He had spoken the Truth.
This is the way that I currently view the interpretation of prophecy. It is important to read it and attempt to understand it as much as is possible, but we should not endeavour to interpret these future prophecies to the point whereby we feel confident that we know how they will be fulfilled prior to their actual fulfillment.(I do not believe that this was Christ's intention when giving us these prophecies.)
So, Yes, I believe that the fulfillment of the "two witnesses" is future and I also believe that its fulfillment will take place after the Second Coming, but that is as far as I will go with it.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 03:35 PM
Where in the Bible does it say that the all prophecies are sequential, described in rank and file order, and holding to a humanly sectioned time-line?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 05:04 PM
Well, Bob-san,
That was quite a blow away for me. Thanx for coming out with your interpretations.
Is it possible that some things in Revelation are different ways of describing the same events? Or maybe some of the events can be overlapping?
If we take the whole book of Revelation as sequential, we get into trouble in a hurry because in 1:7 it says: "he comes with clouds".
The idea of the rapture of the church before the 2nd coming is not warranted by scripture. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13, Matthew 24:31 etc. disprove this, and the 3rd Angel's Message in Revelation 14:9 strongly disproves this "rapture" idea.
quote:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,...
What is the role of prophecy? You have a good point about it is to establish truth, but we should be, must be aware of what is about to take place, that way we can fortify ourselves against the Devil's snares. Most of the Jewish nation didn't understand the prophecies regarding Jesus' 1st Advent, and if we are the same about the 2nd, how can we escape a similar fate?
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 09:17 PM
Ikan,
It would seem to be clear that the prophecies are presented in a historical sequence. In Daniel, the rise/fall of the world empires is presented in sequence.
In Revelation you have the sequence of the "seven churches" and the "seven seals/trumpets", and the "seven plagues".
Should any student of the Bible have the "right" to interpret the historical fulfillment of these prophecies in a different sequence than what they have been presented in?
Danielw-san
If you will look at the Revelation prophecies you can see that John is shown historical prophecies in three separated sequences....
1. Messages to the Seven Churches(Rev 2-3)
2. The Seven Seals(Rev 5-11)
3. Rise/Fall of the Beasts(Rev 12:19)
The final chapters of Revelation describe the final outcome whereby Satan/Sin are finally destroyed and this earth is recreated to its former glory. Time comes to an end.
The idea of a "Rapture" is strongly supported by Scripture. Luke 17 clearly indicates that in the Day of the Lord, some will be taken and others left behind.
This is even more clearly indicated in Revelation 14 -15.
In Rev 14 we have a description of the "Great Harvest" depicting the return of Christ whereby the earth is reaped. The righteous are redeeemed and the wicked are left to suffer the "wrath of God".
Revelation 15 then begins to describe what the "wrath of God" is by portraying the outpouring of the "Seven Plagues".
There is one distinctive difference in this interpretion of the "Rapture" when compared to what is currently being presented by LaHaye. The wicked who are left behind do not receive a second chance. If they were not taken with the righteous at the Second Coming, then their fate is sealed. They are eternally lost.
I would invite you to read through Revelation again and see if you can discover this sequence.
I believe that we should be very much aware of what is being portrayed in Revelation and that we should be constantly comparing these prophetic depictions with current day historical events to see if they are being fulfilled......and they are being fulfilled, even today.
The Second Coming of our Lord is very near.
The only way that we can avoid being mislead by the many varied interpretations of prophecy is to have ourselves firmly grounded in a personal relationship with Jesus whereby we know/recognize the "still small voice" of His Holy Spirit as it leads us into all Truth and an understanding of prophetic fulfillments.
There is no other way.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 09:21 PM
Danielw-san
I forgot to add.....
The sequences presented in Revelation cover pretty much the same historical period of time beginning with the First Advent and extending to the Second Coming and beyond.
Also, the Rapture is NOT Secret. Every eye will see the Second Coming of Christ. The righteous will welcome it. The wicked will attempt to hide from it.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/11/04 11:06 PM
The Rapture indeed is NOT a Secret Rapture.
Every eye
will see the Second Coming of Christ.
The righteous
will welcome it.
The wicked
may attempt to hide from it, but
will be consumed to death by His presence. This is generally understood as the first death.
His presence in all of His glory will either resurrect or translate the righteousness, or consume or put to death the wicked. They, the wicked, will then all be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years to be soon consumed in the lake of fire, which is the second seath, fronm which there isn't any further resurrection.
Seeing this title has to do with EGW's inspired understanding of this, unless you can clearly show us differently from the Bible, I strongly suggest her divinely inspired writings be heeded.
=====
Spelling correction only. - Daryl
[ June 21, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: John H.
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 01:24 AM
quote:
The idea of a "Rapture" is strongly supported by Scripture. Luke 17 clearly indicates that in the Day of the Lord, some will be taken and others left behind.
It's true that Jesus said,
Luke 17:34-36
34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Now let's look at the very next verse:
Luke 17:37
"And they answered and said unto Him, Where, Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
Thus Jesus stated that those left behind on earth would be destroyed. Their dead bodies will be carrion for the eagles.
Jeremiah 25:33 says,
"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground."
There's no Bible support for the idea of anything being 'secret' when Jesus comes again.
He Himself said,
Matthew 24:26
"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 01:36 AM
Daryl,
I thought that I had just demonstrated from Scriptural references how the Righteous will be "reaped" from this earth and the wicked will be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 14,15 clearly demonstrate this.
Revelation 14:14-20 Describes the Great Harvest which is the Second Coming
Revelation 15:2-4 shows the redeemed as being in Heaven.
Revelation 15:1 clearly tells us that the seven last plagues are the "wrath of God".
Revelation 15:6 - 16:1-21 describes the Seven Last Plagues that will be poured out upon the Wicked who have remained on this earth.
Another depiction of this sequence of events can be found in the opening of the seals.
Revelation 6:12-17 describes the opening of the sixth seal which is commonly understood to be the Second Coming.
Revelation 7 then shows the redeemed in Heaven
Revelation 8-11 describes the opening of the seventh seal and the blowing of the seven trumpets that are devastating catastrophes that will befall the wicked who remain on this earth.
I would respectfully ask that you provide Scripture basis for your belief that all the living Wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns.
All mankind(wicked & righteous) are subject to the First Death.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 03:18 AM
Bob wrote,
quote:
I would respectfully ask that you provide Scripture basis for your belief that all the living Wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns.
See the post immediately preceding yours.
Also the parable of the sower, Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.
Matthew 13:37-42
37 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Joel 2:1-3 also brings this to view:
1 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; . . . .
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them."
Also Isaiah 13:9 --
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 05:09 AM
John,
Excellent choice of scripture!
Now for a few questions....
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"? Will all of wickedness be done away with?
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 05:44 AM
myarsman, Did you read my post where i said:
"If we take the whole book of Revelation as sequential, we get into trouble in a hurry because in 1:7 it says: "he comes with clouds".
The idea of the rapture of the church before the 2nd coming is not warranted by scripture. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13, Matthew 24:31 etc. disprove this, and the 3rd Angel's Message in Revelation 14:9 strongly disproves this "rapture" idea."
It seems that you just wish to propogate your ideas without much regard to reasoning from the scriptures or the inspired word in Ellen White's writings.
To be respectful and answer your questions tho;
quote:
Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
To answer your 11:09pm post:
1. The wicked who are alive when Jesus comes (2nd Coming) will die by his brightness, and they will die again in the lake of fire in the 2nd death.
2. The 2nd coming of Christ WILL be the end of the world for all practical purposes. The righteous will go to heaven for 1,000 years, then come down with the New Jerusalem, and the wicked will be raised, judged, and then the world remade.
3. Do you know the mind of Jesus? One reason might be, that all the righteous will be forever safe after the 2nd coming, so it isn't too important for salvation to know what happens after that point.
4. Yes, the earth will be desolate after the 2nd Coming.
Many of your problems would be answered if you believed in God's messenger - Ellen White. I've put up her classic book on this subject - The Great Controversy Between Christ and His Angels and Satan and His Angels. It is at Great Controversy
This book is written 99% in sequential order, so is very easy to follow. Here is the order of the chapters in the latter part of the book:
- 28 The Third Angel's Message
29 A Firm Platform
30 Spiritualism
31 Covetousness
32 The Shaking
33 The Sins of Babylon
34 The Loud Cry
35 The Third Message Closed
36 The Time of Jacob's Trouble
37 Deliverance of the Saints
38 The Saints' Reward
39 The Earth Desolated
40 The Second Resurrection
41 The Second Death
May we study to show ourselves approved unto God. ![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif)
Believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper
Posted By: John H.
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 05:57 AM
[edit] -- Daniel, I guess we were writing at the same time! Your reply didn't appear here when I started on this - some duplication of thoughts, oh well.
Bob asked:
quote:
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
Twice. But not in exactly the same fashion. When Jesus comes, it's by "the brightness of His coming" (2 Thess. 2:8), but the dead will be left as corpses scattered all over the world. Jeremiah 25:33. The world will be a desolate wasteland:
Jer:4:23-27
23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."
After the 1000 years when New Jerusalem comes from the Orion Nebula to the earth, and the wicked are raised, then destroyed by fire which comes "down from God out of heaven" (Rev. 20:9), there won't be anything left of them. They'll be reduced to ashes.
Malachi 4:1-3
1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Ezekiel 28:12-18 (using the phrase "king of Tyrus" as a figure for Satan)
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. . . .
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
quote:
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"?
Yes.
quote:
Will all of wickedness be done away with?
No -- as God says in Jeremiah 4:27, "yet will I not make a full end." That awaits the 2nd resurrection, after the millennium is finished.
quote:
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
I don't know. There are a great many things taught in the Bible that He didn't mention...or, that we have any record of Him mentioning. The identity of the beasts of Revelation 13, the mark of the beast, the seal of God, the events to occur at the end of the 2300 days....none of these things were mentioned by Him, as far as we know. He let His church know about these things later on, by His Spirit. It's evident that in His wisdom He doesn't reveal everything all at once; that's not in His plan.
John 16:12,13
12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. . . .and He will shew you things to come."
I guess these are questions we can ask Him after He comes!
quote:
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
Well yeah, things won't be an ecological paradise, by any means. But wicked people will still be alive after the seven last plagues fall. After the seventh angel pours out the seventh (final) vial in Revelation 16:17, we read
Revelation 16:21
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."
These are, obviously, wicked people who are blaspheming God, and this after the last plague has been poured out. Which shows there's still some work of destruction to be accomplished. We're told that the earth will be a desolate wasteland strewn with dead bodies by Jeremiah.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 09:23 AM
Danielw
You missed my point. God's people will be raptured/taken at the Second Coming. There is no pre-Second Coming Rapture. When Christ will appear in the clouds the righteous dead will be resurrected and the living saints will be translated and they all will join Christ in the clouds. This will be witnessed by all inhabitants of the earth.... at the Second Coming.
All the texts that you stated strongly support this.....Especially Revelation 14.
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
Ans. Once
The wicked will be destroyed by fire at the Third Coming of Christ.
Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:(See also IIThess. 2:8) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse , which sword proceeded out of his mouth:(See IIThess 2:8) and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelaton 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ΒΆ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The final destruction of the Wicked by fire takes place after the 1000 years at the Third Coming of Christ.
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"? Will all of wickedness be done away with?
Ans: After the Saints have been redeemed from this earth.(Sixth Seal/Rev 6:12-17) and Great Harvest/Rev 14:14-20), Revelation 8(Seventh Seal) and 15-16(Seven Plagues) indicate that the Wicked will remain on this earth to suffer the effects of the Seven Plagues/Trumpets,
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
Ans. Jesus admitted that He did not know the hour of His return(Only the Father knew.)(Mark 13:32). Therefore, it could be also reasonable to conclude that perhaps Jesus also did not know that He was to be returning a third time to this earth. It was not until He ascended to Heaven and was given this knowledge that He was able to share it with the prophet John.
In His parables, Jesus was illustrating the ultimate reward of the righteous(eternal life) and the wicked(eternal death), but He did not provide the specific etails as was given in Revelation.
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
Ans: The whole cumulative effect of all the natural disasters to befall this earth during the times of the "seven plagues" will desolate this planet.
These sequences and details are clearly illustrated in the Bible.
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 03:11 PM
My wording was not correct. Instead of saying "rapture before the 2nd coming", i should have said something like: "rapture before the 7 last plagues."
It is impossible that the saints do not go thru the 7 last plagues (the ones who aren't martyred anyway).
If you would read some of the material and quotes given you, everything would become much clearer. The truth will set you free
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 03:48 PM
Danielw-san,
Doesn't the Bible clearly reveal that the saints will be redeemed prior to the outpouring of the seven last plagues.
See Revelation 14 & 15; Revelation 6 & 7
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/12/04 11:53 PM
myarmsman,
You posted below: quote:
Daryl,
I thought that I had just demonstrated from Scriptural references how the Righteous will be "reaped" from this earth and the wicked will be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 14,15 clearly demonstrate this.
Revelation 14:14-20 Describes the Great Harvest which is the Second Coming
Revelation 15:2-4 shows the redeemed as being in Heaven.
Revelation 15:1 clearly tells us that the seven last plagues are the "wrath of God".
Revelation 15:6 - 16:1-21 describes the Seven Last Plagues that will be poured out upon the Wicked who have remained on this earth.
Does Revelation 17 and 18 also follow this sequence, or are those two chapters from a different sequence, and if from a different sequence, then from what sequence are they from?
Another important fact, no matter what the sequence may be or may not be in the book of Revelation or elsewhere, the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
Also, to keep this relevant to the topic, what does EGW have to say about all of this? I think john has adequately given sequential references that we should also look at in relation to myarmsman's interpretation of the sequences of certain portions of the book of Revelation. Afterall, this is what this topic is all about.
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 05:58 AM
No, Bob-san, there is no rapture of the saints before the 7 last plagues. Rev. 18:4 along with the other verses already shown you clearly disprove this idea.
Just a question, why do you choose not to believe Ellen White on this subject?
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 10:02 AM
Daryl,
Revelation 17 & 18 depicts events that will take place after the Second Coming so that are part of the sequence.
I whole-heartedly agree!!...The Bible does not contradict itself. The contradictions lie in how the Bible has been mis-represented and mis-interpreted by man.
Danielw-san ,
Please forget that I used the term "raptured".
Let me put it this way.....
The saints, living and dead, will be redeemed from this earth at the Second Coming of Christ. The wicked will remain here upon this earth to suffer the outpouring of the seven plagues.
Revelation 18:4 is an inserted warning given to God's people to come out of "Babylon" or else they too will suffer the plagues along with her.
This warning is relevant to us today.
The Laodecian church is in jeopardy of suffering the judgment of the wicked, if they do not heed this warning.
This passage in no way confirms the belief that the saints will still be here on this earth during the time of the seven plagues.
Don't you find it curious that in all the passages describing the outpouring of these plagues, that you will not find any reference to the "saints" still be here on this earth
or.....how God will provide protection for the saints while these plagues are falling upon the earth.
The reason that you will not find such references, is because at the time of the out-pouring of these plagues, the saints will be "safe and sound" in Heaven.
Let me put this to you Danielw-san.....
If you studied the Bible with a sincere desire to understand the Truths that it contains and asked God to give you understanding of these Truths, and you discovered and are convicted by the Holy Spirit of certain Truths that are not in agreement with traditional perspectives of Truth that have been presented by EGW, then which would you choose to believe?
Posted By: danielw
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 01:00 PM
The same Spirit that gave words to John to write gave Ellen White words to write. Does the Holy Spirit contradict himself?
You write:
quote:
Revelation 17 & 18 depicts events that will take place after the Second Coming so that are part of the sequence.
Then you write: quote:
This passage in no way confirms the belief that the saints will still be here on this earth during the time of the seven plagues.
You originally wrote:
quote:
It would seem to be clear that the prophecies are presented in a historical sequence.
But now it seems that when things in the "sequence" that don't fit your interpretation are pointed out, that you choose to interpret it differently.
When we ignore God's messengers, we will get off the platform of truth.
It's unavoidable.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 04:22 PM
Sister White's explanation of D&R is too plain to misunderstand. She describes the historical view with perfect clarity. However, there are things she did not elaborate upon, namely, a dual future and final fulfillment. But the Revelation makes it clear that "thou must prophesy again... there should be time no longer."
Those prophecies that were fulfilled by the time the Millerites experienced their Great Disappointment in 1844 must repeated and reapplied - Revelation chapters 1-11, minus the time elements mentioned therein.
This means the seals and trumpets were fulfilled by 1844. But historically we say they are still in the process of being fulfilled, and as such we cannot reapply them. I have suggested a solution to this problem elsewhere on MSDAOL. Please take a minute to read it. Thank you. Here is the link:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=82;t=000021
Posted By: John H.
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/14/04 06:07 AM
The idea that the redeemed will be taken away from this earth, while the wicked will be left here to suffer the seven last plagues, doesn't line up with the words of Jesus:
Luke 17:26-30
26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
The same day Noah and his family were shut up in the ark, the wicked were destroyed. Likewise the same day Lot and his family were led out of Sodom, the wicked were destroyed. Jesus said, "Even thus shall it be" when He returns.
Pretty straightforward!
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 07:05 PM
Gentlemen,
I have participated in the discussion to the point where any further comments may serve no useful purpose.
One important point must be kept in mind though.....
We are discussing the future, which no one can clearly say with authority, will happen as they have interpreted.
I would suggest that you take all of the prophetic interpretations that EGW has given and compare them to past and current history to see if any part of them has yet to be fulfilled.
Then I would suggest that you re-study Revelation with an objective and open mind,(IOW, study it as if it were your very first time.) to see if the prophecies outlined there are being fulfilled even today.
You may be surprised.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 07:29 PM
Yes, John, that text is very straight-forward to me too!
That is why we need to look at the Bible as a whole and not just the book of Revelation.
======
Spelling correction only - Daryl
[ April 13, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: myarsman
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 10:02 PM
Please don't think me a liar, because I am posting again after stating that I wouldn't....but a thought came to me as I was driving to work.....
If we look at the texts that John shared we will certainly see that Jesus states that the wicked will be destroyed at His return. What it does not state though, is that not only will be returning a Second time, but also a Third Time. Nor does He state that there will be a 1000 year period between His Second and Third Coming. Nor does He state that the wicked will be resurrected again, only to be destroyed again by fire at the time of His Third Coming.
What conclusions can be drawn from this?
At His First Advent, Jesus gives only a generalized description of what will happen to the Righteous and Wicked. The ultimate reward of the righteous will be "eternal life". The ultimate reward of the wicked will be "eternal death".
Now when we come to Revelation, we discover that Jesus provides more exact details as to how and when these rewards will be given.
When we look at the prophetic depictions of the Second Coming of Christ(i.e. Sixth Seal, Great Harvest) we find that there is no indication that the Wicked will be destroyed at that time. It only states that they will cry for the rocks and mountains to fall upon them to hide them from Jesus, and that they will be throne into the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 15 goes on to describe the "wrath of God" as being the "Seven Plagues"
As we study further into Revelation we discover that the Wicked will suffer their final destruction at the Third Coming of Christ, when they will be thrown into the "lake of fire".
Conclusion.....
At His First Advent, Christ provided an incomplete/generalized picture of events leading up to the "end of time". Revelation provides us a more detailed picture which provides specific events and sequences. Most of the prophetic events depicted are unique and can not be found anywhere else in the Bible.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 04/13/04 10:11 PM
Seeing that this topic is in the SOP forum and has to do with the writings of EGW, what does EGW say about this, and how does she say it?
Posted By: dedication
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 05/30/04 09:12 AM
quote:
"If we look at the texts that John shared we will certainly see that Jesus states that the wicked will be destroyed at His return."
Luke 17:26-30
26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
quote:
What it does not state though, is that not only will be returning a Second time, but also a Third Time. Nor does He state that there will be a 1000 year period between His Second and Third Coming
Nor does He state that the wicked will be resurrected again, only to be destroyed again by fire at the time of His Third Coming..
Rev. 19 and 20 show that at the second coming:
1. The time has come for the marriage supper of the Lamb, his bride is ready, all clothed with fine linen of righteousness. They are declared as blessed for they are invited to the marriage supper. (Rev. 19:17-18)
2. The wicked are struck down with the sword that precedes from the mouth of the rider on the white horse and their flesh is the supper of the fowls. (Rev. 19:15-21)
Two suppers are connected with the second coming.
THEN
1. The righteous were resurrected (called the first and blessed resurrection) and they reign with Christ 1000 years. (Rev. 20:4)
2. The wicked are dead those 1000 years. (Rev. 20:4-5)
AFTER THE 1000 YEARS
1. The wicked are brought to life (Rev. 20:5,13)
2. They suffer the second death (Rev. 20:15)
Posted By: dedication
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 05/30/04 09:42 AM
What does EGW say about where God's people are during the last plagues?
See Great Controversy pages 627-630
quote:
When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues...terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people......
"While the wicked are dying from hunger and pestilence, angels will shield the righteous and supply their wants. To him that "walketh righteously" is the promise: "Bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure." ....
Yet to human sight it will appear that the people of God must soon seal their testimony with their blood as did the martyrs before them.....
With earnest longing, God's people await the tokens of their coming King.....
God's people are still on earth-- sheltered from the plagues, YES! but still on this earth.
quote:
{EW 36.1}
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed. A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble.
Posted By: Restin
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 05/31/04 06:06 AM
I agree that we as SDA include Sister White's works in our study of prophecy, and we don't need to be hesitant or embarrassed to include her here. It isn't just what the Bible says, but also how EGW expands upon it also. She gives us the picture of the Remnant going through the time of trouble and the plagues. Indeed, we figure that it is about the third plague where the death decree is given. Rather than all the saints gathered in a great "city" or "fortress" over in Jerusalem, as the Three Angels Heralds claim, Great Controversy pictures the remnant scattered about in small groups. Some will be in prison. Yet, once probabation closes and the plagues begin, the remnant have been sealed and can not be killed. Sis White very clearly presents the remnant as seeing their rescue coming in the heavens just at the darkest hour of war and plagues upon earth. I also agree that we need to be especially careful to understand which scripture is dealing with events before Christ's second coming, and those events that will happen at the third coming.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation - 05/31/04 06:20 AM
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Thank you both for resurrecting this topic.
Both the Bible and the SOP clearly reveals that the righteous will be there, will be protected, and will be translated at the second coming of Jesus Christ. They are not taken out of this world prior to the visible second coming of Jesus Christ.
It is also clearly revealed in both the Bible and the SOP,that there are two separate resurrections; the first resurrection of the righteous, and then after the 1000 years, the second resurrection of the wicked.