The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account

Posted By: Mountain Man

The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/14/05 05:22 PM

Spiritual Gifts, Volume 3
Chapter VIII. - After the Flood.

The whole surface of the earth was changed at the flood. A third dreadful curse now rested upon it in consequence of man's transgression. The beautiful trees and shrubbery bearing flowers were destroyed, yet Noah preserved seed and took it with him in the ark, and God by his miraculous power preserved a few of the different kinds of trees and shrubs alive for future generations. Soon after the flood trees and plants seemed to spring out of the very rocks. In God's providence seeds were scattered and driven into the crevices of the rocks and there securely hid for the future use of man. {3SG 76.2}

The waters had been fifteen cubits above the highest mountains. The Lord remembered Noah, and as the waters decreased, he caused the ark to rest upon the top of a cluster of mountains, which God in his power had preserved and made them to stand fast all through that violent storm. These mountains were but a little distance apart, and the ark moved about and rested upon one, then another of these mountains, and was no more driven upon the boundless ocean. This gave great relief to Noah and all within the ark. As the mountains and hills appeared they were in a broken, rough condition, and all around them appeared like a sea of roiled water or soft mud. {3SG 77.1}

In the time of the flood the people and beasts also, gathered to the highest points of land, and as the waters returned from off the earth, dead bodies were left upon high mountains, and upon the hills as well as upon the plains. Upon the surface of the earth were the bodies of men and beasts. But God would not have these to remain upon the face of the earth to decompose and pollute the atmosphere, therefore he made of the earth a vast burying ground. He caused a powerful wind to pass over the earth for the purpose of drying up the waters, which moved them with great force--in some instances carrying away the tops of mountains like mighty avalanches, forming huge hills and high mountains where there were none to be seen before, and burying the dead bodies with trees, stones, and earth. These mountains and hills increased in size and became more irregular in shape by collection of stones, ledges, trees, and earth which were driven upon and around them. The precious wood, stone, silver and gold that had made rich, and adorned the world before the flood, which the inhabitants had idolized, was sunk beneath the surface of the earth. The waters which had broken forth with such great power, had moved earth and rocks, and heaped them upon earth's treasures, and in many instances formed mountains above them to hide them from the sight and search of men. {3SG 77.2}

God saw the more he enriched and prospered sinful man, the more he corrupted his way before him. These treasures, which should have led man to glorify the bountiful giver, had been worshiped instead of God, while the giver had been rejected. {3SG 78.1}

The beautiful, regular shaped mountains had disappeared. Stones, ledges, and ragged rocks appeared upon some parts of the earth which were before out of sight. Where had been hills and mountains, no traces of them were visible. Where had been beautiful plains covered with verdure and lovely plants, hills and mountains were formed of stones, trees, and earth, above the bodies of men and beasts. The whole surface of the earth presented an appearance of disorder. Some parts of the earth were more disfigured than the others. Where once had been earth's richest treasures of gold, silver and precious stones, was seen the heaviest marks of the curse. And countries which were not inhabited, and those portions of the earth where there had been the least crime, the curse rested more lightly. {3SG 78.2}

Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore, causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. {3SG 79.1}

Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed--the ground trembles, heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder underground. The air is heated and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth. {3SG 80.1}

God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene-- pouring forth fire, and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear. They have been filled with awe as though they were beholding the infinite power of God. {3SG 80.2}

These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those, who like Pharaoh would proudly say, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence as when the melting fire burneth. The fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence. When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence. {3SG 81.1}

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured our like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. {3SG 81.2}

"Bow thy heavens, O, Lord, and come down. Touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them. Shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them." {3SG 81.3}

Greater wonders than have yet been seen will be witnessed by those upon the earth a short period previous to the coming of Christ. "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath, blood and fire and vapour of smoke." "And there were voices and thunders and lightnings, and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, for the plague thereof was exceeding great." {3SG 82.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. Christ appears in his glory, and calls forth the righteous dead. The living saints are changed, and, with the resurrected dead, are borne away from the earth by angels to meet their Lord in the air. The earth is left like a desolate wilderness. {3SG 83.1}

At the end of one thousand years, Jesus, the king of glory, descends from the holy city, clothed with brightness like the lightning, upon the mount of olives--the same mount from whence he ascended after his resurrection. As his feet touch the mountain, it parts asunder, and becomes a very great plain, and is prepared for the reception of the holy city in which is the paradise of God, the garden of Eden, which was taken up after man's transgression. Now it descends with the city, more beautiful, and gloriously adorned than when removed from the earth. The city of God comes down and settles upon the mighty plain prepared for it. Then Jesus leaves the city surrounded by the redeemed host, and is escorted on his way by the angelic throng. In fearful majesty he calls forth the wicked dead. They are wakened from their long sleep. What a dreadful waking! They behold the Son of God in his stern majesty and resplendent glory. All, as soon as they behold him, know that he is the crucified one who died to save them, whom they had despised and rejected. They are in number like the sand upon the sea-shore. At the first resurrection all come forth in immortal bloom, but at the second, the marks of the curse are visible upon all. All come up as they went down into their graves. Those who lived before the flood, come forth with their giant-like stature, more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and well proportioned. The generations after the flood were less in stature. There was a continual decrease through successive generations, down to the last that lived upon the earth. The contrast between the first wicked men who lived upon the earth, and those of the last generation, was very great. The first were of lofty height and well proportioned--the last came up as they went down, a dwarfed, feeble, deformed race. A mighty host of kings, warriors, statesmen and nobles, down to the most degraded, came up together upon the desolate earth. When they behold Jesus in his glory they are affrighted, and seek to hide from his terrible presence. They are overwhelmed with his exceeding glory, and with one accord are compelled to exclaim in anguish, "Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord." {3SG 83.2}

Jesus and the saints return to the city. Satan goes forth among the vast multitude of resurrected wicked, and makes the feeble strong. He then points them to the countless millions who have been raised, and makes them believe that he, by his power, had brought them up from [their] graves. He points to the powerful race who lived before the flood, and to kings and warriors who were well skilled in battle, and flatters his subjects that their numbers are much greater than those in the city, that they can make war with them, and dethrone God and his Son Jesus Christ, and take the throne and occupy the city, and enjoy its richness and glory. As the wicked come forth from their graves, they resume the current of their thoughts where it ceased in death. The antediluvian race perished blaspheming God. Many perished in battle; they fell while thirsting to conquer; they rise with the same spirit of war that they possessed when they fell. They accept Satan as their general, and his angels as their officers. Satan and his angels were once inhabitants of the city; and they profess to understand just how to attack the city and take possession of it. With Satan at their head, they go up on the breadth of the earth, and compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire comes down from God out of Heaven and devours them. {3SG 85.1}

Jesus and his loyal subjects ascend to the top of the city. The wicked host behold the splendor of the city, and the happy redeemed company upon its walls, and are amazed at the scene. They behold Jesus in his kingly majesty, his countenance surpassing the brightness of the sun, surrounded by the angelic throng. As the wicked look upon the redeemed, and see their faces radiant with glory, and glittering crowns upon their heads, their courage fails, and they wail in anguish as they realize that they chose a life of rebellion against God, and Jesus Christ their Saviour, and for their disloyalty have lost eternal life, and an imperishable treasure. Then many who had professed to be Christ's followers, but who had not honored God in their lives, enumerate their good deeds performed when they lived upon the earth, and entreat to be admitted into the city. They plead that their names were upon the church books, and they had prophesied in the name of Christ, and in his name cast out devils, and done many wonderful works. Christ answers, Your cases have been decided. Your names are not found enrolled in the book of life. You professed to believe in my name, but you trampled upon the law of God. I know you not, depart from me ye workers of iniquity. Satan and his angels try to encourage the wicked multitude to action; but fire descends from Heaven, and unites with the fire in the earth, and aids in the general conflagration. {3SG 86.1}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

By transgressing God's commandments a curse fell upon Adam and Eve, and they were deprived of all right to the tree of life. Christ died to save man, and yet preserve the honor of God's law. He says "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the City." The Son of God here presents the doing of the commandments of God as the condition of a right to the tree of life. The transgression of God's commandments deprived man of all right to the tree of life. Christ died, that by virtue of his blood, obedience to God's law might make man worthy of the heavenly benediction, and grant him a right again to the tree of life. {3SG 88.1}

When the faithful dead shall be resurrected, and the king of glory shall open before them the gates of the city of God, and the nations who have kept the truth enter in, what beauty and glory will meet the astonished sight of those who have seen no greater beauties in the earth than that which they beheld in decaying nature after the threefold curse was upon the earth. {3SG 88.2}

It is impossible to describe Adam's transports of joy as he again beholds Paradise, the garden of Eden, his once happy home, from which, because of his transgression, he had been so long separated. He beholds the lovely flowers and trees, of every description for fruit and beauty, every one of which to designate them he had named while in his innocence. He sees the luxuriant vines, which had once been his delight to train upon bowers and trees. But when he again beholds the wide spread tree of life with its extended branches and glowing fruit, and to him again is granted access to its fruit and leaves, his gratitude is boundless. He first in adoration bows at the feet of the King of glory, and then with the redeemed host swells the song, Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain. Adam had lost Eden by disobeying the commandments of God. He has now regained that lovely garden by repentance and faithful obedience. The curse rested upon him for disobedience, the blessing now for his obedience. {3SG 89.1}
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/15/05 06:41 AM

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

"God destroys no one." Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36. [99]

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

"God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." ibid., 759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/15/05 05:25 PM

Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}
Posted By: Windsor

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/15/05 11:46 PM

quote:
"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.
Exactly. God may cause a lake of fire to sweep over the Earth and destroy the wicked, but the wicked have destroyed themselves by not being worthy to enter the city.
Posted By: Restin

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 01:19 AM

Am I supposed to believe Sister White, or Tom Ewall? [Confused]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 04:39 AM

Actually, Tom Ewall, in his last post only provided quotes as Mountain Man had done, however, the quotes must be looked at in their context as a bunch of isolated quotes can be used to say something out of context.

[Caution] So we need to be very cautious here. [Caution]
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 04:49 AM

Tagging on to what Windsor said, God's act is based on a person's decision.

[Thunder & Lightning]
A person rejects the gift of salvation and consequently chooses death, in this case the second death, and the day comes when God rains down fire from heaven and destroys that person for all eternity.

The sad thing is that so many choose to reject and so few accept, therefore, so many will be destroyed by God in the lake of fire. This is referred to as God's strange act. [Thunder & Lightning]
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 06:21 AM

I think the answer to the who to believe question is that the truth should be believed no matter who says it. God has given us minds to reason with. It's not His way to have us believe truth on the basis of authority, as if we were puppets, but rather He invites us to reason together.

The quotes I provided were principles. When dealing with the issue of how destruction occurs, we should take into account the principles involved. None of the principles were taken out of context. Indeed, I don't know how one would do that. Either a principles is true or it isn't. It's not dependent on context (other than to understand what the principle is) if it is truly a principle.

Take for example the principle that all that can be known of God was revealed by the life and character of Christ. Either this is true or it isn't. If it is true, there is nothing additional that we can learn about God that is not revealed in Christ. So if a thing is true about God, we should be able to find it in Christ's life and character.

On the other hand, if the principle is false, then it's false. Then we should be able to find things about God which were not revealed in Christ's life and character.

Let's take the principle of force. The Spirit of Prophesy states over and over that force is not to be found in God's government but only in Satan's. This is a principle. It is not dependent on context. She does not state that force is only to be found in Satan's government some of the time, or that God only relies upon force as a last resort, but that force is not a principle of God's government. On the other hand, she does say this:

quote:
Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now. The Papacy has exercised her power to compel men to obey her, and she will continue to do so. (ST 5/6/97)
Are God's methods no different than Satan's? He comes to us with the sweet wooings of the Holy Spirit, presenting an appeal of peace, but if that doesn't work to inspire loyalty, there's always the flames of death to appeal to?

Is force also the last resort of God? So whether it's false religion or true religion, the answer is the same, force is the last resort?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 06:28 AM

Again:

God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene-- pouring forth fire, and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear. They have been filled with awe as though they were beholding the infinite power of God. {3SG 80.2}

These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those, who like Pharaoh would proudly say, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence as when the melting fire burneth. The fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence. When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence. {3SG 81.1}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 06:46 AM

Tom Ewall,

What I am really trying to say is that the quotes by Mountain Man and the quotes by you would seem to be contradictory, if taken out of context, so I think the quotes posted by both of you need to be explained in relation to this seeming contradiction.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 08:07 AM

The reason I posted the quotes was to point out the importance of looking at the underlying principles involved.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 05:51 PM

Tom, is it not true that you also believe Satan, and not God, is the one who employs the forces of fire and water to destroy people? Did you not post those quotes to prove that Sister White did not mean to imply that it was God who used water to punish and to destroy the antediluvians? that God will not use fire to punish and to destroy the unsaved at the end of time?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 05:58 PM

Daryl, do you think the chapter I posted needs further explanation, further interpretation? Or, does it stand alone?

The quotes Tom posted introduce awesome and solid principles as to why God has, and will, use the forces of nature to punish and to destroy unsaved sinners. They also point out that, at times, God commissions evil angels to do His biddings, to spread desolation everywhere. There is a quote Tom did not post (unless I overlooked it):

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 07:13 PM

MM,

To me the chapter you quoted is obviously clear and in context, whereas, I am not so certain about the ones Tom Ewall quoted. I would say that the ones he quoted needs to be looked at in respect to the chapter you quoted.

[Caution] We shouldn't be interpreting anything to what we think it should be saying, but to what it is saying. [Caution]
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 08:57 PM

Why does a quote which says that God destroys stand on its own, but a quote that says He doesn't destroy is out of context? I didn't merely present a single quote, but a whole slew of quotes which explain that force is not a principle of God's government. How is context involed here?

If the statement that force is not a principle of God's government is dependent on context, then it's not true. A principle is not dependent upon context by definition. Otherwise it's not a principle.

Consider the principle that God is not a respector of persons, or to use more modern language, does not show favortism. If this is dependent upon context, then this is not a principle. If God sometimes shows favortism, but sometimes doesn't, then it cannot be said, as a principle, that God does not show favortism.

Similarly if God only uses force as a last resort, then it cannot be said that force is not a principle of God's government. In this case, force would be a principle of God's government, and the statement would be false.

Also my question regarding force as the last resort of false religion applies. If force is also the last resort of true religion, then what's the difference? Why even make the statement that force is the last restort of false religion if it's also the last resort of true religion?

And what about the statement that all we can know about God was revealed in Christ? Where in Christ's life do we see the predisposition to destroy those who disagreed with Him, even as a last resort? Where did Christ ever use force to get His way?

Was Christ a full and complete revelation of God's character?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/16/05 09:07 PM

quote:
Tom, is it not true that you also believe Satan, and not God, is the one who employs the forces of fire and water to destroy people? Did you not post those quotes to prove that Sister White did not mean to imply that it was God who used water to punish and to destroy the antediluvians? that God will not use fire to punish and to destroy the unsaved at the end of time?
You're taking my statements out of context. Here's what I think:

1)God is constantly at work to protect us from forces which would destroy us (which include both natural and supernatural forces).
2)When God removes His protective/sustaining hand then ruin results.

God knows exactly what will happen when He removes His hand, and it is He who controls the forces of nature. In this way He controls fire and water to accomplish His purposes.

What should be understood is that sin is incredibly destructive, more than we can imagine. We cannot know how deeply we are dependent upon God's protective care. To get an inkling of sin's destructive power, consider that suns from far distant galaxies are constantly burning out. Death is even found in distant stars.

According the second law of thermodynamics, the destinty of the universe is to reach a state of uniform heat, with no order at all. This is the destructive power of sin at work.

The Ministry of Healing, page 416 I think, brings out that it is only by the power of God that the earth stays in its orbit, and that our hearts continue to beat. The common thought is that nature has inherent power to continue on its own, but this is false. It is only by the power of God that life can exist or be sustained at all.

It is our ignorance of the forces of destruction which lead us to underestimate God's work to protect and sustain us. For God to bring about destruction, it is not necessary for Him to do anything other than remove His protective and sustaining hand.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/17/05 01:51 AM

Tom, while I admit that your idea harmonizes with some of what Sister White wrote, it does not, however, agree with everything she wrote about the arsenal of God.

And, it is a mistake to assume she expected us to interpret what she wrote at the beginning of this thread to mean God did not, or does not, use the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners.

Nor does it make sense, to me, that she expected us to believe she meant God simply stopped holding back the inevitable forces of nature, or that they are eager to spread desolation everywhere.

Here's what she wrote, at the beginning of thisthread, about the forces of nature:

quote:
God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities.

There’s nothing stated, or even remotely implied, that God withdraws His protection and then the forces of nature wreak the havoc they’ve been eager to dole out.

quote:
There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work. In this men do not know what they are talking about. Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/17/05 05:35 AM

Before addressing this post, I note that I asked 7 questions I think in a post two before this, and none of these questions have been answered. In fact, I have been asking the same question for several weeks, if not several months, and I think it would be really, really cool if you, or someone else who disagrees with the concepts I've been presenting, would answer them.

Tom, while I admit that your idea harmonizes with some of what Sister White wrote, it does not, however, agree with everything she wrote about the arsenal of God.

I just presented principles she wrote, such as:
1)All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
2)Force is not a principle of God's government, but is only to be found in Satan's government.
3)Force is the last resort of false religion.

I do not see how any of these statements could be construed as agreesing with some of what EGW wrote. Perhaps you could explain this to me.


And, it is a mistake to assume she expected us to interpret what she wrote at the beginning of this thread to mean God did not, or does not, use the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners.

I didn't asser this, did I?

Nor does it make sense, to me, that she expected us to believe she meant God simply stopped holding back the inevitable forces of nature, or that they are eager to spread desolation everywhere.

Why not? To deny this is to deny that sin is destructive, and, to my mind at least, denies the clear statements in MH 416 (about God's sustaining work) and GC the first chapter, especially 35-37)

Here's what she wrote, at the beginning of thisthread, about the forces of nature:

quote:
God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities.
I agree with this, and she explains many times exactly how God will do this. For example:

quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3)
There’s nothing stated, or even remotely implied, that God withdraws His protection and then the forces of nature wreak the havoc they’ve been eager to dole out.

That's not true. There are many statements which explain this, such as the one I quoted. Plus this is the only explanation which agrees with the principles I cited (the ones numbered 1-3 above)

I would suggest in dealing with the subject that one should think of the principles involved, and not just think in terms of proof texts. Consider Rev. 20:10. This is a famous proof text for those who believe that hell is eternal. When one considers the principles involved, and takes into account all of Scripture, then one can see this text does not mean what it may appear to say.

The same methodology should be used in considering statements from EGW.


There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work.

This is exactly the opposite of the thought in MH 416 which I have cited many times. The forces of nature are NOT self acting, and necessitate God's sustaining and protecting hand. This is exactly what I've been asserting. If God removes His protecting or sustaining hand, then ruin must result.

In this men do not know what they are talking about.

Agreed.

Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

It is correct to assert that God controls the forces of nature. It is because of God's protection that we are not destroyed.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/17/05 05:03 PM

Tom, your favorite quotes provide awesome insights regarding some of the ways God uses the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. But it is a mistake to assume they explain all of the ways God employs them.

When Sister White plainly describes several different ways God has punished and destroyed unsaved sinners it would be wrong, to my way of thinking, to insist she meant one way. She says what she means, and means what she says. We do not have to change the meaning of one quote to agree with the meaning of another.

The questions you keep repeating have been addressed on other threads. Yes, Jesus is a revelation of the character of God - in both the OT and NT, not just the NT. It was Jesus in the OT who killed people in various ways. You disagree.

Yes, God does not employ force to harvest obedience from His created children. But He does, and will, use the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. You disagree.

Yes, Jesus used the Flood to punish and kill the antediluvians. Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP is it taught that God merely withdrew His hand and allowed the forces of nature to run its natural course. You have yet to post one single quote that agrees with the legitimate insights you have gleaned from other passages.

If your idea is correct, then please prove it from the Bible or the SOP. If Jesus merely withdrew His hand and the Flood naturally occurred, then please post a quote that says so (not unrelated quotes that you believe must be applied to the Flood). Let the Bible or the SOP speak for themselves. Please, Tom, just one quote that directly says so. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/17/05 08:02 PM

By the way, Tom, it occurred to me to ask you about something. If nature is ready to destroy us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that nature obeys God? Since it is clear that nature naturally obeys the will of God, how is it that nature naturally wants to destroy us? Can nature do anything against the will of God?

If God must restrain the forces of nature from naturally and automatically killing us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that God sometimes allows evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to destroy unsaved sinners?

Which is it? Does God withdraw His protecting hand and allow nature to run its natural course of destruction? Or, does He allow evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to spread desolation everywhere?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/18/05 01:12 AM

Tom, your favorite quotes provide awesome insights regarding some of the ways God uses the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. But it is a mistake to assume they explain all of the ways God employs them.

I don't understand what you're saying here. The quotes were not speaking of what you suggested at all. They were not speaking of some of the ways God destroys. If that's what you think the subject I was addressing is, you've missed the whole point of the quotes.

When Sister White plainly describes several different ways God has punished and destroyed unsaved sinners it would be wrong, to my way of thinking, to insist she meant one way. She says what she means, and means what she says. We do not have to change the meaning of one quote to agree with the meaning of another.

Certainly inspired quotes do not disagree with each other, which is my point. The quotes you provided need to be reconciled with the clear statements that force is not a principle of God's government. To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time. This is brought out particularly well by the statement that force is the last resort of all FALSE religion. The fact that force is the last resort of all false relition implies it is not a resort of true relgion at all.

The questions you keep repeating have been addressed on other threads.
Not that I'm aware of. I never saw answers to my questions.

Yes, Jesus is a revelation of the character of God - in both the OT and NT, not just the NT. It was Jesus in the OT who killed people in various ways. You disagree.

I think you've missed the force of the quote. The quote points out the Jesus Christ is His humanity was a full and complete revelation of God's character. This does not mean that God did not reveal His character in the Old Testament, but simply that no element of that revelation in the OT is not present in the revelation Christ gave in the NT. What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.

Yes, God does not employ force to harvest obedience from His created children. But He does, and will, use the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. You disagree.

So your suggestion is that the statement that force is not a principle of God's government means:
1)God does not use force to "harvest obedience"
2)God does use force to punish and destroy those who do not obey Him.

I fail to see how this makes any sense. It should be evident that if I say to you that if you do not obey me then I will boil you in scalding water until you die that I am indeed using force to "harvest obedience". I don't see how you could assert that I am do anything other than precisely that.


Yes, Jesus used the Flood to punish and kill the antediluvians. Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP is it taught that God merely withdrew His hand and allowed the forces of nature to run its natural course. You have yet to post one single quote that agrees with the legitimate insights you have gleaned from other passages.

I don't understand this either. I've posted dozens of quotes which agree with the "legitimate insights" you menition. All EGW quote agree with these insights. (She doesn't contradict herself)

If your idea is correct, then please prove it from the Bible or the SOP.

My idea is simply what I have stated from the SOP. The principle of force is not found under God's government; it is found only in Satan's government; it is the resort of all false religion; Jesus Christ in His humanity is the full and complete revelation of God's character. How you would you have me prove these statements are true? I've provided the references.

If Jesus merely withdrew His hand and the Flood naturally occurred, then please post a quote that says so (not unrelated quotes that you believe must be applied to the Flood). Let the Bible or the SOP speak for themselves. Please, Tom, just one quote that directly says so. Thank you.

The Spirit of Prophesy explains that God used the waters from beneath the earth in causing the flood. The only way those waters could get up into the atmosphere is if they were under great pressure. There are two possibilities I can think of as to what God did in order to cause the waters to rise from the depths of the ocean into the atmosphere:
1)Cause the depths of the ocean to open up to let the water, already under pressure, rise up.
2)Allow the depths of the ocean to open up to let the water, already under pressure, rise up.

The second choice is just as viable as the first. More so, it appears to me, because it is in harmony with the principles I presented.

When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen. There are many examples of this, including the death of Saul, the destruction of the wicked, and the coming judgments referred to in the 14 MR 3 quote provided above, to just name three. We need to compare Scripture with Scripture, or inspiration with inspiration, in order to arrive at true interpretations, just as with Rev. 20:10 for example.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/18/05 01:13 AM

By the way, Tom, it occurred to me to ask you about something. If nature is ready to destroy us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that nature obeys God?

Because if nature didn't obey God, we would be destoyed. Destruction only occurs when God permits.

quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3)
Since it is clear that nature naturally obeys the will of God, how is it that nature naturally wants to destroy us? Can nature do anything against the will of God?

Of course. God is not willing that any should perish. People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).

If God must restrain the forces of nature from naturally and automatically killing us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that God sometimes allows evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to destroy unsaved sinners?

Because we live in a world of sin, God at times allows evil angels sway. It should be pointed out that not only unsaved sinners perish in these storms, but saved saints as well. The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity. This was the error the book of Job was written to correct.

Which is it? Does God withdraw His protecting hand and allow nature to run its natural course of destruction? Or, does He allow evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to spread desolation everywhere?

The early Christians believed that Satan and his confederates were behind all storms. That is, there would be none of these storms, such as hurricanes, tsunamis, etc., if it weren't for Satan. Whether Satan specifically acts in a way to cause a storm to happen, such as with Job, or whether it is the indirect cause of actions he brought into place a long time ago, makes no difference. These things were never a part of God's plan, and only exist because of sin and Satan. God's function has always been to save us according to His goodness. This is His character.

For example, when Christ was urged to destroy those who disagreed with Him, He responded, "Luke 9:53-56, "And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." The Spirit of Prophesy, commenting on this verse, writes "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." (DA 487)

God is just like Jesus. He comes not to destroy, but to save. If His saving work is rejected, the sure result is destruction, but not because of God's disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate His work, but as the sure result of sin:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life....By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/18/05 02:19 PM

Tom,

If Christ is the full and complete revelation of God’s character, I suppose this includes His teachings, don’t you agree? When we said that Christ didn’t exercise His role as Judge when He was on earth, you argued that He spoke about it in His teachings. Now, you said that He never destroyed or punished anyone while He was on earth, but He spoke about it in His teachings (Matt. 5:22, 7:19, 13:40-42, 18:8, 25:41, etc.). How do you see that?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/18/05 08:04 PM

This is a good question.

I'd say Christ's teachings don't change anything; that is, we should still be able to find in Christ's actual life and character whatever aspect of God's character we are looking for. Not just in His teachings.

This is because Christ was what He taught; or He lived what He taught. I think I quoted the SOP statement saying this earlier. Can't remember right off hand where it is, but that's the thought. So anything we find in Christ's teaching we should see in His life, because Christ was not a hyprocrit; He didn't say one thing and do another. For example, He taught to love your enemy, to turn the other cheek, to go the second mile, to bless those who curse you, and all of these things is precisely how Christ lived His life.

Regarding the verses you gave, they all speak of hell fire, and that gets back to the principle laid out in DA 764 and DA 108, that those who resist God's grace form character so out of harmony with God's that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire, and the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. So there's nothing out of harmony with what Christ said in the verses you cited with the full and complete revelation which Christ gave of His Father.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/19/05 03:26 PM

OK, but, again, Christ never passed judgment upon anyone while on earth; however this doesn’t mean He won’t do so in the future. In the same way, the fact that He never executed judgment upon transgressors while on earth doesn’t mean He won’t do so in the future.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 06:15 AM

quote:
To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time.

True. God will never force anyone to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour or choose to be saved. Not even Satan can use force or compel us to sin. But when God promises to punish and destroy us in the lake of fire if we refuse to embrace Jesus, He is not using force.

The tempter thought to take advantage of Christ's humanity, and urge Him to presumption. But while Satan can solicit, he cannot compel to sin. He said to Jesus, "Cast Thyself down," knowing that he could not cast Him down; for God would interpose to deliver Him. Nor could Satan force Jesus to cast Himself down. Unless Christ should consent to temptation, He could not be overcome. Not all the power of earth or hell could force Him in the slightest degree to depart from the will of His Father. {DA 125.1}

The tempter can never compel us to do evil. He cannot control minds unless they are yielded to his control. The will must consent, faith must let go its hold upon Christ, before Satan can exercise his power upon us. But every sinful desire we cherish affords him a foothold. Every point in which we fail of meeting the divine standard is an open door by which he can enter to tempt and destroy us. And every failure or defeat on our part gives occasion for him to reproach Christ. {DA 125.2}

quote:
What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.

In what sense? What He set out to demonstrate and do was full and complete. However, Jesus did not come to earth to finish the great controversy. There is more to it, more that has yet to be accomplished.

quote:
When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen.

Tom, once again, you have failed to prove your point. Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP does it say God allowed the forces of nature to unleash their pent up fury upon the antediluvians. It is true there were times that God allowed holy angels and unholy angels to fulfill His will in manipulating the forces of nature to punish and to destroy unsaved sinners. But never does it say they merely withheld holding back the inevitable course of nature. Never. Nature obeys the will of God. It doesn’t do anything without God causing or allowing it to happen.

quote:
People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).

There is no calamity that God does not cause or permit. Nothing happens on this planet without God’s consent.

quote:
The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity.

Not at all. I’m referring to specific cases, cases that involve only the unsaved. I agree there are times when God allows bad things to happen to good people. The point is, it is God who is either causing it or allowing it to happen - not Satan.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 02:04 AM

To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time.

True. God will never force anyone to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour or choose to be saved. Not even Satan can use force or compel us to sin.

You're adding a qualification where one doesn't belong. As I said above, to state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time. You agreed to this. It's illogical of you to agree to a statement which is unqualified and then qualify it. If you have to qualify the statement, then you can't agree to the unqualified version.

But when God promises to punish and destroy us in the lake of fire if we refuse to embrace Jesus, He is not using force.

This is force. If I say to you if you don't do what I tell you, I will boil you in scalding water for many hours, supernaturally keeping you alive so you can feel the pain, then this is the force of coersion. "Obey me or I'll kill you" is force. That this is how God gets converts is the devil's claim. He made this same argument, in principle, regarding Job.

I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).



What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.

In what sense?

In any sense. "Full and complete" means there is nothing left out.

What He set out to demonstrate and do was full and complete. However, Jesus did not come to earth to finish the great controversy. There is more to it, more that has yet to be accomplished.

This is a moot point to my comment. I made no claims regarding the Great Controversy; simply that Jesus Christ was a full a complete revelation of God's character.

When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen.

Tom, once again, you have failed to prove your point.

Do you really disagree with my statement? I only have to produce one example to prove my statement. The Bible says God killed Saul, but Saul committed suicide. Although it says God killed Saul, it is clear it means that God allowed Saul to die. This proves my statement.

Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP does it say God allowed the forces of nature to unleash their pent up fury upon the antediluvians.

You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion. This is the only reasonable conclusion I can come to given principles such as:

1)Force is not a principle of God's government.
2)All that can be known of God was revealed by the life and character of His Son (who came not to destroy, but to save).
3)All truth must be related to the cross in order to be properly understood.

As far as I can tell, you have made no attempt to harmonize your position with these principles. I must reject any position which is contradictory to these inspired principles.


It is true there were times that God allowed holy angels and unholy angels to fulfill His will in manipulating the forces of nature to punish and to destroy unsaved sinners. But never does it say they merely withheld holding back the inevitable course of nature. Never. Nature obeys the will of God. It doesn’t do anything without God causing or allowing it to happen.

If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.

People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).

There is no calamity that God does not cause or permit. Nothing happens on this planet without God’s consent.

Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.

The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity.

Not at all. I’m referring to specific cases, cases that involve only the unsaved. I agree there are times when God allows bad things to happen to good people. The point is, it is God who is either causing it or allowing it to happen - not Satan.

If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 02:34 AM

To pass judgment means to "evaluate: form a critical opinion of." Jesus did this at every moment during His life on earth.

Perhaps you meant "execute judgement", as in act as a judge. But Jesus addressed this in John 12 where He said,

quote:
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
(Sorry if I misunderstood what you were wanting to say).

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He acted no differently during His life on earth then God acts at any other time. This is the whole point in asserting that all that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. If God, whether God the Father or God the Son, were to at some point in time act differently than what Jesus revealed in His life and character, then the statement that all we can know of God was revealed in His life and character would be false.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 04:41 AM

quote:
I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).

I posted it because you keep insisting that only Satan uses force. But according to the SOP Satan cannot make anyone sin by employing force. He cannot compel anyone to sin. That is the context of the passages where she talks about force. That is, God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus. But, she never uses the word “force” in the context of God killing people. Why? I believe it is because doing so is not using force to make someone believe in Jesus. It is punishing and destroying them for not believing in Jesus.

quote:
You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion.

Not if you read the inspired account the way it is written. There is nothing vague or ambiguous about the way it is described in the Bible or the SOP. That’s why you will never read an inspired commentary that agrees with how you are applying the “force” quotes.

quote:
If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.

Tom, how do you explain this passage:

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

quote:
Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.

Do you mean preference? It is not God’s desire or preference to punish and destroy people in the lake of fire, but neither is it His will that they live forever in a sinful state.

It is His will to punish and to destroy them if they reject Jesus. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Mat 10:28) The following quotes confirm this point:

2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

quote:
If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.

Not so. God is responsible for what He allows Satan to do. Satan can do no more and no less than what God gives Him permission to do. Satan can do only those things God feels, under the circumstances, are right and best for everyone involved. He will not allow Satan to tempt us beyond our ability, in Christ, to resist. Satan is only free to do those things that God allows him to do. He is not at liberty to refuse to do those things God orders him to do. He is, in one sense, obligated to obey God.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 05:54 AM

I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).

I posted it because you keep insisting that only Satan uses force.

Why do you find it so difficult to correctly represent what I say? I've never once said that only Satan uses force. What I've said is exactly what the Spirit of Prophesy said:

quote:
"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." (DA 759).
It is not only Satan who uses force, but all those who ascribe to the principles of his government are capable of using force.

But according to the SOP Satan cannot make anyone sin by employing force. He cannot compel anyone to sin.

This isn't relevant to our conversation. Whether or not Satan causes us to sin by using force has no bearing on the fact that force is not a principle of God's government. At least, I can't see any relation.

That is the context of the passages where she talks about force. That is, God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus. But, she never uses the word “force” in the context of God killing people. Why? I believe it is because doing so is not using force to make someone believe in Jesus. It is punishing and destroying them for not believing in Jesus.

You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you say God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus, and then immediately following, you say He does. If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.

Here's an example. Let's say you owe my $1,000. I tell you I will not use force to may you pay back your debt. If you refuse to pay, however, I will boil you in scalding water until you die. However, I'm not forcing you to pay; I'm just punishing you if you don't pay. That doesn't make much sense, does it?


You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion.

Not if you read the inspired account the way it is written.

This is incorrect, MM. We MUST use reason to understand ANY Scripture or inspired text. There is NO Scripture or inspired text that can be understood without reasoning. Consider the following:

quote:
The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary.(GW 315)
Since no truth can be rightly understood and appreciated apart from the light that streams from the cross of Calvary, it is evident that no truth can be understood without reasoning.

In fact, one of the weaknesses I notice in your arguments is the lack of any connection to the cross of Calvary. How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals? How does Calvary help you rightly understand what you consider to be the truth here? I'll split my response.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 06:59 AM

There is nothing vague or ambiguous about the way it is described in the Bible or the SOP. That’s why you will never read an inspired commentary that agrees with how you are applying the “force” quotes.

Certainly there's nothing vague about what is described in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. Here's how I'm applying the force quotes:

quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3)
Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?

If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.

Tom, how do you explain this passage:

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

How do you explain it? Is force a principle of God's government? I suggest you read the statement in context. Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.

Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.

Do you mean preference?

No, I meant will, as in desire. It's what God wants. This certainly includes preference, but it is not limited to preference.

It is not God’s desire or preference to punish and destroy people in the lake of fire, but neither is it His will that they live forever in a sinful state.

It is His will to punish and to destroy them if they reject Jesus.

The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.(DA 764)
If we bear in mind that all truth is rightly understood only in the light of the cross, and also bear in mind that in order for Christ's death to substitute for the death of those for whom it substitutes it must be identical in character, we can see from Scripture that what Ellen White wrote above in DA 764 must be correct. God did not punish or destroy Christ in the sense you are thinking God destroys and punishes the wicked. Rather He displayed His wrath against Christ by giving them up to the same fate He gave Christ up to:

quote:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (Rom. 1:18-24)

quote:
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom. 4:24, 25)
quote:
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (Rom. 8:32)
God gave up Christ, just as will give up the wicked (as described in the DA 764 quote)

If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.

Not so.

It is so.

quote:
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.(GC 589)

1.Satan works through the elements to accomplish his will.
2.Satan uses his power as far as God allows.
3.God shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.
4.The Lord withdraws His blessings from the earth and protective care.
5.Satan has control over those whom God does not guard.

This statement of EGW makes the points I've been bringing out as clearly as they can be. It is Satan who destroys, and God who restores.

quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
God is responsible for what He allows Satan to do. Satan can do no more and no less than what God gives Him permission to do. Satan can do only those things God feels, under the circumstances, are right and best for everyone involved.

This is a little confused it seems to me. The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan. This is exactly what Christ did by revealing God's character through His healing, compassion and many other benevolent works.

He will not allow Satan to tempt us beyond our ability, in Christ, to resist. Satan is only free to do those things that God allows him to do. He is not at liberty to refuse to do those things God orders him to do.

To me this is confused again. This sounds like Calvinistic theology. This is not Adventism. You will find not quotes from the Spirit of Prophesy echoing the idea that God orders Satan to do what he does. Satan has free will to do what he wish, and it is his choice, and his choice alone, to do the hateful things he does.

He is, in one sense, obligated to obey God.

If he were obligted to obey God, then he would act like Christ did. Christ showed what obedience to God looks like. It is manifest in selfless love.

One other point. If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one. But Satan fought against Christ all along the way.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 07:14 PM

quote:
If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.

Tom, promising to punish and destroy someone for rejecting “so great salvation” in Jesus is not a threat, it’s a promise. It’s not a tactic to get us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. God doesn’t work that way. However, more than a few of us were initially motivated to believe in Jesus merely to escape damnation. Not wanting to die in the lake of fire is a good reason to serve Jesus, but if our reasons never progress beyond this one then we shall surely punish and perish in the flames.

Hebrews
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

quote:
How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals?

Tom, when you read about the Flood in the Bible or the SOP do see any mention of Calvary? We’re not talking about my “idea” here; instead, we’re talking about how the Bible and the SOP describe the Flood. Where in the inspired accounts do find the Cross mentioned? Would you consider it a weakness if it was missing?

quote:
Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?

Yes. But it doesn’t explain everything. It doesn’t explain all the other places where Sister White plainly describes holy angels using the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners.

quote:
Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.

No it doesn’t. Nowhere in it does she say, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power?

I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I have also heard you say, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.

quote:
The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:

No. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.

GC 664
Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

quote:
The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan.

Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?

quote:
If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one.

He did obey Jesus. He had to. Why? Holy angels would have killed him if he refused to obey Jesus. Holy angels force evil angels to obey the word of God.

Luke
4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

James
4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

James
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

DA 130, 131
So we may resist temptation, and force Satan to depart from us. Jesus gained the victory through submission and faith in God, and by the apostle He says to us, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you." James 4:7, 8. We cannot save ourselves from the tempter's power; he has conquered humanity, and when we try to stand in our own strength, we shall become a prey to his devices; but "the name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe." Prov. 18:10. Satan trembles and flees before the weakest soul who finds refuge in that mighty name. {DA 130.4}
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 09:25 PM

If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.

Tom, promising to punish and destroy someone for rejecting “so great salvation” in Jesus is not a threat, it’s a promise.
It’s not a tactic to get us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. God doesn’t work that way. However, more than a few of us were initially motivated to believe in Jesus merely to escape damnation. Not wanting to die in the lake of fire is a good reason to serve Jesus, but if our reasons never progress beyond this one then we shall surely punish and perish in the flames.

Say I'm a doctor, and you come to me for help, and I diagnose that you have a terminal disease. I warn you that will die if you do not follow my instructions. If you refuse and die, this is not the same sceanario as if I tell you I will kill you if you do not follow my instructions.

There are many who have the idea that sin is innocuous. Satan started this idea with our first parents. God is promising that Satan's lies are false; sin really is deadly! Sin kills, just as the DA 764 text lays out.

You will notice in the DA 764 text that it is explicitly denied that God causes the death of the wicked; rather it is repeatedly emphasized that it is not due to an action on God's part, but is rather a result of their own choice and actions.


How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals?

Tom, when you read about the Flood in the Bible or the SOP do see any mention of Calvary? We’re not talking about my “idea” here; instead, we’re talking about how the Bible and the SOP describe the Flood. Where in the inspired accounts do find the Cross mentioned? Would you consider it a weakness if it was missing?

The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.

Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?

Yes. But it doesn’t explain everything. It doesn’t explain all the other places where Sister White plainly describes holy angels using the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners.

The first thing we should establish in our minds is that inspiration does not contradict itself. When you use the word "other" as in "all the other places," this implies there is a contradiction, at least in your mind. This suggests a misunderstanding of what is happening.

The principle that force is not a principle of God's government is clear and easy to understand. Force is not something which God uses to get His way. That's what the statement means. Calvary clearly demonstrates the truth of this principle. If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.


Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.

No it doesn’t. Nowhere in it does she say, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power?

Yes it does. Did you even look at the reference? This is immediately following:

quote:
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God.
This is immediately preceeding:

quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth... The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended...The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.
The context of the passage is in complete harmony with 14 MR 3. Once again, inspiration does not contradict itself. Take a look at the passage as a whole, and you will see she is presenting exactly the same ideas I have been presenting:

1)When God removes His restraint, Satan has control of the impenitent.
2)Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection (from whom? from God? No! from Satan; God protects, Satan destroys)
3)When the angels of God cease to hold in check the winds of strife, these destructive elements are let loose.
4)What happens here is worse than in Jerusalem.

Over and over she compares this time with the destruction of Jerusalem. Regarding that destruction she writes,

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 35)
Once again, these are the same principles. Rather than looking at isolated texts out of context, try to comprehend the principles involved.

I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I have also heard you say, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.

What she really meant is what she wrote in the texts I quoted. As I suggested, these are in the immediate context, both preceeding and subsequent to the sentence you quoted.

The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:

No.

Yes. Here it is again.

quote:
This is NOT an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764; emphasis mine)
Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.

Here is another text which brings out the principle:

quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is VOLUNTARY with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542; emphasis mine)
The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan.

Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?

The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).

If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one.

He did obey Jesus. He had to. Why? Holy angels would have killed him if he refused to obey Jesus. Holy angels force evil angels to obey the word of God.

You're twisting the meaning of words. Yes, God protected Christ from the harm Satan would wreak on him; this has never been in dispute. Satan "obeys" God in the sense that he cannot do anything God prevents him from doing. But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.

In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will. So to the extent that Satan does anything different than what Christ would do in his spot, Satan is acting contrary to God's will.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/20/05 11:54 PM

Tom,

I meant to judge, that is, to acquit or condemn, to pronounce sentence as the judge of a court.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/21/05 06:46 AM

Jesus said on quite a number of occasions that He does not judge or condemn, but rather saved. If it's really true that when we see Jesus, we've seen the Father, the only conclusion is that the Father does not judge or condemn either, but rather saves.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He acted no differently in His life on earth than He will in the future. For example, what will happen in the judgement is clearly seen in the cleansing of the temple.

Jesus in John 12 (in the quote I provided) explained that He will not judge in the last day, but His word will judge. DA 764 helps to explain the last day dynamic:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life... they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
The destiny of all those who refuse to respond to God's loving appeals is to eventually become so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. Jesus' mission was to save them from this fate; the judgment will prove the truthfulness of His warning words.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/21/05 02:32 PM

Tom,

Whatever you think will happen afterward, Christ will act as Judge then, and will pronounce sentence on everyone; but He never acted as the judge of a court while on earth.

“Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;’ ... Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Matt. 25:34, 41).

“The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and his law will stand forth as ‘holy, and just, and good.’ Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all” (RH, Sept. 20, 1898).

“The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them” (GC 668).
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/21/05 05:53 PM

Tom,

Whatever you think will happen afterward, Christ will act as Judge then, and will pronounce sentence on everyone; but He never acted as the judge of a court while on earth.

“Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;’ ... Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Matt. 25:34, 41).

“The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and his law will stand forth as ‘holy, and just, and good.’ Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all” (RH, Sept. 20, 1898).

“The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them” (GC 668).

Given that inspiration does not contradict itself, we must understand these statements in the light of John 12, which states:

"47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

We are told that ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus Christ, in His humanity. So whatever questions we have regarding God's conduct at any time, whether past, present or future, can be discovered by searching the life and character of Christ.

In John 12 Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (verse 31). This verse brings out the principle of judgment, which is that when the truth about God is seen, then the truth about the enemy is seen as well as the nature of sin and the issues of the Great Controversy. Notice from the chapter "It Is Finished"

quote:
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)

Satan's power was broken when the truth was made know. This is the principle of judgment. It happened while Christ was alive on earth, for those who saw the truth (the unfallen beings), and it will happen again in the future at Christ's Second Coming and the final judgment (for the unfallen beings).

Jesus acts no differently in either case. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. His role is to reveal the truth about His Father, which is what He did during His ministry on earth, and what He is doing in His ministry in heaven, and what He will do during and after the Second Coming.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/21/05 11:29 PM

The Word of God, and more specifically the law of God, will be the standard of judgment, but Christ is the Judge. The Bible is very clear about this.

John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and dead.

Acts 17:31 because He hath appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained.

Romans 2:16 Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.

When He was on earth, Christ said He didn't come to judge, but to save. But also, when He was on earth, He said He didn't know the day of His coming. Nobody will claim this is still true. What is true of His first coming may not be true of the second, and vice-versa. In His first coming He came as a humble Galilean, in His second coming He will come as King of Kings. In His first coming He came to die for all; in His second coming He will come to judge all.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/22/05 02:37 AM

Christ's goal, and God's goal, is also to save, not to condemn. This never changes.

Judgment comes when the truth is rejected. Jesus made that clear in John 12, when He explained how Satan was cast down. The statements in DA 761 also bear this out.

God's character doesn't change. He doesn't change His principles. He always works in the same way, which is just how Jesus acted. The only way it could be truthfully said that Jesus Christ revealed ALL that we can know about God is if God, and Christ, weill NEVER act any differently then how Jesus acted while hear on earth. This is a simple deduction from what "all" means.

The cleansing of the temple is a good illustration of the principles involved in judgment. Christ laid out the truth, and those who were rejecting it couldn't bear it and left. Those whose consciences were clear, including children and the sick, stayed around and sat on Jesus' lap or were healed.

Another example is when Jesus wrote on the ground when the woman caught in adultery was broght to Him. Rather than face embarrassment, her accusers left.

Jesus pointed out this principle in John 3. Those who have done well, come to the light, that there works may be seen, which were wrought of God. Those who have done evil, run away from the light.

Light is agonizing for the wicked. They would rather die than face it, and God gives them their desire. The light of the glory of God (which is the truth about His character) gives life to the righteouse, but slays the wicked.

There's no difference in either Jesus' actions (which was, and is, and ever will be to reveal God's character) nor in the principles of God's governemnt either before sin entered the world, after sin entered the world, or after Christ returns. The only thing that changes is how the truth will be revealed.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 06:00 AM

quote:
The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.
Tom, are you saying the inspired accounts do not mention the cross in the context of the Flood? If not, why not?

quote:
If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.
There is no interpreting necessary, Tom. It plainly says God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a Flood. Period. God did not use force to compel people to accept Jesus.

quote:
Yes it does.

No it doesn’t. Nowhere in your 14 MR 3 quote did she say that, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power?

I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I also hear you saying, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.

quote:
Mike: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.

Tom: Yes. Here it is again.

The quotes you posted did not say that they pleaded with God to kill them in the lake of fire. Nor did they say that the unsaved created the lake of fire themselves and then hopped in it in order to die. Instead, here’s what she said about it:

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

quote:
Mike: Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?

Tom: The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).

So, you believe Satan is a rogue enemy of God and man, who has the right and authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God? that he can, without any restraint from God, do as he pleases, irrespective of God’s will? that God has no right or authority to prevent Satan from causing pain and suffering against His will? When did God grant this type of power and authority and freedom to the Devil?

quote:
But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.

He does, when it serves his purposes. Check out this quote:

GC 589
Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

quote:
In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will.

Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”

When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 01:16 AM

Tom,

Is Christ the Judge or not?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 09:42 AM

The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.

Tom, are you saying the inspired accounts do not mention the cross in the context of the Flood? If not, why not?

I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.

If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.

There is no interpreting necessary, Tom.

If we were robots, perhaps no interpretation would be necessary. But we're human beings, and we interpret everything. You interpret everything according to your view, and it appears to me that you are actually more interpretative than anyone else in this forum, so it is a bit ironic for you to assert no interpretation is necessary.

It plainly says God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a Flood. Period.

God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a flood in a way which is in harmony with the principles of His government, which is consistent with the supreme revelation of His character, which is His Son Jesus Christ. Exclamation point!

God did not use force to compel people to accept Jesus.

Amen! Now you're getting it!

Yes it does.

No it doesn’t.

Whoa!! Let's go back and see what this is talking about. This is so chopped up , there's not context here. Let me go back and see what the context is, as I'm guessing you're going to switch subjects here. Ok, here's what I wrote:

quote:
Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.
I then provided the actual words which do indeed say what I said they said.

Nowhere in your 14 MR 3 quote did she say that, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says. You are disputing something you wrote, which you are free to do, but please recognize that you are not disputing what I wrote.

Old Mike: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.

Yes. Here it is again.

The quotes you posted did not say that they pleaded with God to kill them in the lake of fire.

They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.

Nor did they say that the unsaved created the lake of fire themselves and then hopped in it in order to die.

This is another twisting of words. I never claimed this. Here's what I claim:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Old Mike: Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?

The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).

So, you believe Satan is a rogue enemy of God and man, who has the right and authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God? that he can, without any restraint from God, do as he pleases, irrespective of God’s will? that God has no right or authority to prevent Satan from causing pain and suffering against His will? When did God grant this type of power and authority and freedom to the Devil?

No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.

quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.

He does, when it serves his purposes. Check out this quote:

I read you quotes, and saw nothing what contradicted what I wrote. Satan has no power to heal. He can apparently cause healing by removing the disease which he himself is causing. That's not in any way, shape, or form, the same thing which Christ did.

The fact that you do not see differences between how Christ acts and how Satan acts is, to my mind, a very serious weakness in your position.


In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will.

Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”

When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with? Is it this one:

"In Christ we see exactly what God's will is." or this one "Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will"?

I don't see how any Christian could agree with either of these sentences.

quote:
In His lessons and His mighty works Christ is a perfect revelation of God. This Christ declares through the inspired evangelist. "No man hath seen God at any time," He says; "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." These words show the importance of studying Christ's character. Only by knowing Christ can we know God. (IHP 250)
I am saying nothing different than this.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 09:47 AM

In response to your question, Rosangela:

quote:
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.(John 12:47,48)
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 03:09 PM

Tom, and what do you make of the quotes I had mentioned previously:

John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and dead.

Acts 17:31 because He hath appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained.

Romans 2:16 Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.

Do you simply ignore them?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/23/05 07:55 PM

quote:
I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.

I would be happy to relate my views in the context of the Cross, but that’s not my question. My question to you, Tom, is - Did Sister White share her inspired views of the Flood in the context of Calvary? If not, why not?

quote:
Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says.

Now that we understand we’re on the same subject, please show me in the 14 MR 3 quotation where she says something equivalent to the following from the GC 614 quote: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

quote:
They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.

I did not say you said those things. I was simply saying that’s not what they do say. Your view, in my opinion, implies it. The DA 764 quotes says – “This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.” According to your view, if I am hearing you correctly, you believe they receive the results of their choice when God allows the forces of nature to kill them.

You also seem to be saying that there is no sustained physical pain and suffering proportionate to their sinfulness, that no one suffers physically longer than anyone else, that literal flames have nothing to do with how long each sinner suffers in the lake of fire, that their suffering is emotional and spiritual, that the flames symbolize their internal pain.

quote:
No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.

Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?

quote:
I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with?

No, Tom, my questions have to do with what I asked. Here they are again:

quote:
Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”

When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

I think we can both agree that Jesus never did anything of these things while on earth as a man. In the same way Rosangela is trying to help you see that Jesus did not serve in the capacity as judge while on earth as a man, it does not mean Jesus will never serve as judge or use the forces of nature to punish and kill unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus did not act or behave on earth in the same way He does in heaven. He did not demonstrate, when He was on earth, all the offices and actions He took in the OT or will take at the end of time.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/24/05 12:22 AM

I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.

I would be happy to relate my views in the context of the Cross

Please do so.

, but that’s not my question.

Right, that was my question to you.

My question to you, Tom, is - Did Sister White share her inspired views of the Flood in the context of Calvary? If not, why not?

You already asked this question, and I answered it. My answer was that she did not say that the relationship to Calvary had to be stated but that it needed to be understood. As to why she didn't present the view in relation to the flood, there's no need as the principle has been explained many times. Once the principle is understood, it may be applied to other cases.

If one does not understand the principle, then one is destined to consider each individual incident case by case with no clue as to what is happening, unless some inspired comment illuminates the mind. This is the problem of relying on proof texts. When one understands the principles, one knows what is going on in each case.

Here's an example of the principle being explained:

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 35)
The principle is that God protects and sustains us, from destructive forces that would overwhelm us. When God withdraws that protection, Satan presents God as doing that which He allows. You have expressed the opinion that it doesn't make any difference whether God actively does the destructive act, but it does:

quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer (CH 168)
What is at issue is if we understand the difference between God and Satan.

Regarding how the flood came about, I'm not sure if you have perceived this or not, but your view and mine are very similar. The difference is a subtle one. We both agree that God used water from beneath the earth to destroy the antedeluvians, and we both agree that He did so for the purpose of saving the race (had God not intervened, Satan would have succeeded in his goal to destroy any line by which the Messiah could come).

I assume you comprehend that the waters of underneath the earth had to be under great pressure in order to escape into the atmosphere. So the only difference in our views is that I believe that God was preventing the waters from escaping until the time that He released His protection, and you believe that God was active in opening the earth to allow the waters to explode from the depths. Given that you don't think there is any difference whether God allowed the water to explode by releasing His protection, or if God caused it to happen, it is strange that you would argue so strongly against the idea I have presented. What leads me to this idea is that it harmonizes with the principles God has revealed to us, including:

1)Force is not a principle of God's government.
2)Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power.
3)Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
4)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
5)We owe our existence to the protective and sustaining care of God.
6)The laws of nature are not self-acting. They require God's protective and sustaining care.
7)If God is replaced by another god, the mighty powers of nature are removed from His control.
8)The government of God is like no earthly government. Every instrument of coercion is banished.


Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says.

Now that we understand we’re on the same subject, please show me in the 14 MR 3 quotation where she says something equivalent to the following from the GC 614 quote: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

You're still changing the subject! Just like before! I said the context of the sentence you snipped was the same as the 14 MR 3 quote. Not the sentence itself, but the context of the sentence. I cited what came before and after, and it is indeed like 14 MR 3, just like I said.

Here is 14 MR 3:

quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.
Here is GC:

quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who
615
have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. {GC 614.3}

When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. {GC 615.1}

You are wanting to take two sentences out of context without considering what the overall point is. I have quoted the surrounding paragraphs, and it is evident that these are not saying anything different than 14 MR 3.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/24/05 12:33 AM

They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.

I did not say you said those things.

You implied it.

I was simply saying that’s not what they do say. Your view, in my opinion, implies it.

If that's what you think, then say so! Say, "In my opinion your view implies ..." But please don't present your words as if they were mine, or your ideas as if they were mine.

The DA 764 quotes says – “This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.” According to your view, if I am hearing you correctly, you believe they receive the results of their choice when God allows the forces of nature to kill them.

What she states is that they form characters so out of harmony with God that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. The light of the glory of God destroys them. This is what I believe.

You also seem to be saying that there is no sustained physical pain and suffering proportionate to their sinfulness, that no one suffers physically longer than anyone else, that literal flames have nothing to do with how long each sinner suffers in the lake of fire, that their suffering is emotional and spiritual, that the flames symbolize their internal pain.

Where do you get this from?!? Could you quote something I've written? To my knowledge, I've not said anything remotely like this.

No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.

Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?

God never causes these things to happen.

quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with?

No, Tom, my questions have to do with what I asked. Here they are again:

Well then why do you quote what I wrote, and then ask questions immediately following that? If your questions are unrelated to what I'm writing, please make that clear.

Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”

When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”

I think we can both agree that Jesus never did anything of these things while on earth as a man. In the same way Rosangela is trying to help you see that Jesus did not serve in the capacity as judge while on earth as a man, it does not mean Jesus will never serve as judge or use the forces of nature to punish and kill unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus did not act or behave on earth in the same way He does in heaven. He did not demonstrate, when He was on earth, all the offices and actions He took in the OT or will take at the end of time.

If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/25/05 06:40 AM

quote:
Mike: Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?

Tom: God never causes these things to happen.

God very clearly used leprosy to teach Miriam a lesson.

Deuteronomy
24:9 Remember what the LORD thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.

Numbers
12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.
12:11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12:12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
12:13 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
12:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in [again].
12:15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in [again].

quote:
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.

Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things. Period. Exclamation point!
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/24/05 11:34 PM

Mike: Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?

Tom: God never causes these things to happen.

God very clearly used leprosy to teach Miriam a lesson.

Deuteronomy
24:9 Remember what the LORD thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.

Numbers
12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.
12:11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12:12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
12:13 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
12:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in [again].
12:15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in [again].j

God allows things like leprosy to happen, but:

quote:
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.


Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things.

I was disappointed in reading this. At first I thought you were being serious and found some point of commonality, but then I saw you were just being sarcastic. That's too bad.

Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power. This is to say, not the work of God, but rather that of a power which is antagonistic to God. That makes sense, doesn't it?

It appears to me that you do not see sin as something which is bad in and of itself. In your view, it appears to me, sin is only bad because God punishes it. If God didn't punish it, there wouldn't be any problem. OTOH I view sin as a deadly cancer which would destroy all things if God didn't intervene to destroy it. God is at all times intervening to prevent sin from having its full effect. He does this through His angels, which are holding back the winds of strife. When these angels are released, then the terrible events of the last plagues will happen. These terrible things are the result of God's removing His protective and sustaining hand, as 14 MR 3 makes plain.

When I made the statement that a weakness of your position is that you cannot differentiate between what God does and what Satan does I was not referencing the flood, or any specific incident at all. What I was referencing was the act of evil itself, any act. In your view either God or Satan can do anything; lie, kill, destroy, maim, cause sickness, whatever. The only way you know if God or Satan does something is some inspired source tells you. According to my point of view, the way to know if God or Satan is doing something is by knowing the life of Christ. If it is out of harmony with the Word, then it is not God, but rather the antagonistic power. When the Scripture presents God as doing something which is out of character with Christ, we know it is speaking in the sense of permission. For example:


quote:
But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” Job. 2:5
God allowed sickness, suffering and death to visit Job, the work of an antagonistic power, and the Scriptures, and Satan, ascribe this work to God. But in truth it was Satan who was responsible for these things; God simply allowed them to occur. If one understands God's character as revealed in Christ, one would know this even if the book of Job were not pointing it out.

Here's another example:


quote:
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.(Numbers 21:6)
Sounds like God doing this, correct? But if we bear in mind the principle that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power, we know it cannot be God who caused these things. Here is the comment from the Spirit of Prophecy:

quote:
"Because they had been shielded by divine power, they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures." (PP428, 429)
If one understands the principle that Christ is the full and complete revelation of God's character, one doesn't need the PP explanation to know that God did not cause the serpents to come upon the Israelites, even though that's what it says in Numbers 21.

Similarly we read in GC 35

quote:
Says the prophet, '0 Israel; thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' [123] Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.
If one understands that Christ is the full and complete revelation of God's will, one doesn't need this explanation in GC 35 to understand that God did not destroy Jerusalem, even though the Scriptures state that God would destroy Jerusalem. That is, one understands that God destroyed Jerusalem in a permissive sense only, by withdrawing His protection, because that's the only explanation which is in harmony with His character as revealed in Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/25/05 05:31 PM

quote:
Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things.
No sarcasm intended, Tom. I am happy I finally understand where you're coming from. For some reason I thought you believed God sometimes causes things to happen Himself, like the Flood, and that sometimes He allows holy angels to do things - but now I see you firmly believe that God never does it, that He always and only gives evil angels permissions to do things that cause pain and suffering and death. Now that I understand your position there is no more need to study it further with you. I am willing to agree to disagree.

PS - I guess I remember you saying that God also sometimes allows the pent up forces of nature to cause destruction, and that somehow He also allows sin to run its natural course of destruction.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/26/05 02:12 AM

Mike, I can't tell if you're continuing to be sarcastic, or are just being unperceptive. If you don't wish to continue our discussion that's fine, but please don't delude yourself into think you have understood what I believe if you can't state your understanding of my thoughts any better than this.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/27/05 06:35 AM

Tom, this is what I think you believe:

quote:
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Since Jesus didn't cause a worldwide flood to kill millions of people when He walked the earth as a man, then, based on your theory, it is clear He didn't cause the Great Deluge.

And, since Jesus never commanded a holy angel to destroy anyone, He never has done before in the past. And, since He never withdrew His protection and allowed the forces of nature to kill people, then He never has. And, since He never gave Satan permission to kill people, He never has and never will. And, to borrow from Rosangela's insight, since Jesus never judged anyone or executed justice, He never has and never will.

Do these observations agree with your view? If not, then please explain why not. Better yet, just explain what you do believe. And, please, spare me the lessons on how to think and post if I somehow misunderstood and/or misapplied your view. Just set the record straight. Thank you.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/26/05 09:17 PM

Tom, this is what I think you believe:

If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Since Jesus didn't cause a worldwide flood to kill millions of people when He walked the earth as a man, then, based on your theory, it is clear He didn't cause the Great Deluge.

And, since Jesus never commanded a holy angel to destroy anyone, He never has done before in the past. And, since He never withdrew His protection and allowed the forces of nature to kill people, then He never has. And, since He never gave Satan permission to kill people, He never has and never will. And, to borrow from Rosangela's insight, since Jesus never judged anyone or executed justice, He never has and never will.

Do these observations agree with your view? If not, then please explain why not. Better yet, just explain what you do believe. And, please, spare me the lessons on how to think and post if I somehow misunderstood and/or misapplied your view. Just set the record straight. Thank you.

Perhaps you are unaware of how uncharitable your characterization of my position was. It's not pleasant to see one's thoughts being lampooned. I'm sure you wouldn't like it either. The goldren rule comes into play here: Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.

Thank you for quoting me. This helps in not misrepresenting a position (although it would have been helpful to have included a little more context, to see what "these things" are referring to.) Before responding to your specific questions (which are good ones) regarding Jesus withdrawing His protection and allowing the forces of nature to kill people, giving Satan permission to kill people, and judging or executing judgement, let me first ask if you find any fault with the logic of my statement. The logic is as follows:

Given that:
1)Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever
2)All that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity

Then it follows that
3)Jesus did not act differently in the past, nor will He act differently in the future, then how He acted while on earth in the flesh. (and the same thing could be said about God the Father viz a viz how Christ acted while on earth in the flesh).

This seems like a perfectly sound argument to me. Do you disagree? I assume you must disagree, since you are suggesting examples to disprove the argument. But if the argument is not valid, then either the premises are not true, or the conclusion does not follow from the premise. The premises come directly from inspiration, and the conclusion looks to me to be a valid inference from the premise. So if you disagree that I have presented a valid argument, where is the invalidity?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/28/05 06:20 AM

quote:
Given that:
1)Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever
2)All that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity

Then it follows that
3)Jesus did not act differently in the past, nor will He act differently in the future, then how He acted while on earth in the flesh. (and the same thing could be said about God the Father viz a viz how Christ acted while on earth in the flesh).

This seems like a perfectly sound argument to me. Do you disagree?

Okay, for the sake of discussion, let's say I agree with your formula. With this in mind, please address the following applications:

1. Since Jesus didn't cause a worldwide flood to kill millions of people when He walked the earth as a man, then, based on your formula, it is clear He didn't cause the Great Deluge.

2. Since Jesus never commanded a holy angel to destroy anyone, He never has done it before in the past.

3. Since He never withdrew His protection and allowed the forces of nature to kill people, then He never has.

4. Since He never gave Satan permission to kill people, He never has and never will.

5. And, to borrow from Rosangela's insight, since Jesus never judged anyone or executed justice, He never has and never will.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/28/05 06:53 AM

Do you actually agree with my argument? Not just for the sake of discussion, but really? If not, then the argument is not sound, which would mean either a premise is false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

If the argument is valid, then the questions you have asked (which are good ones) MUST have answers. I have ideas as to what the answers are, but before sharing these I would like to clarify that you agree that the argument is sound.

When you say "for the sake of discussion," this implies to me that you don't really believe the argument is sound, and if you don't, I would like to know why (i.e. either the premises are false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises).

By the way, it's not really that difficult to answer your own questions. If you think about Christ's life, you can find the principles there. Given that ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, they principles MUST be found in His life and character. So seek and ye shall find.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/27/05 07:02 PM

Tom, in order for me to ascertain whether or not your formula is valid I need more information. Addressing the observations I posted above would go a long way in helping me. Since Jesus never did any of the things I listed while on earth as a human, it stands to reason then, based on your formula, that He never has and never will do them. Did I miss something?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/27/05 09:07 PM

You don't need any more information to ascertain if the argument is sound. The soundness of an argument depends upon two things, whether the premises are true, and if the conclusion logically follows from the premises.

The premises are:
a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever
b)All that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity

The conclusion is:
c)Jesus Christ (and the same can be said of God the Father) did not act any differently in the past, nor will He act differently in the future, than how He acted on earth.

"Act differently" here is in the context of revealing character.

Regarding the questions you asked, either Christ did do the things you suggest, in principle, while on earth, in which case He could have done them before and afterwards as well, or He didn't do them, in which case He (and God the Father) did not do them in the past nor will He do them in the future either.

Regarding the last question (regarding judgment/justice), I have already commented in detail, several times, earlier in this post, so would invite you to read those comments. I will say in brief that Christ constantly executed justice while in the flesh, and so there's no difficulty understanding that He (or God) has done so in the past and will do so again in the future. Regarding Christ not judging (this would be in the sense of condemning, not in the sense of acting as a judge), this is something Christ did not do while on earth, which He affirmed many times, and is thus something He (nor God) did not do in the past nor will He do so in the future.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/29/05 09:31 PM

Tom, I simply trying to understand your position. It sounds like you are hesitant to answer the questions I posted above. That's cool.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/29/05 11:58 PM

I'm not hesitent. I've thought about your questions quite a bit, and am anxious to discuss the thoughts I've had. However, before doing that, I have the desire that the validity of the argument be recognized.

It's like the story that if you give a person a fish, that satisfies the hunger for a moment. But if you teach that person to fish, you satisfy their hunger forever.

As I mentioned, the questions you asked are not difficult to answer. You yourself should be able to find the answers. Just start with what we know: "All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son" and then consider where you want to go -- e.g. some act of God or Christ which you find does not match what happened in Christ's life.

To give one example, you mentioned that Christ did not judge while on eathe, but will in the future. However, if the argument I presented in valid, then what you have stated is impossible. Either Christ did judge while on earth, or He will not in the future. Which is it?

As Jesus stated several times, He judges no man. This is in the sense of condemnation, and in this sense He will never judge, as He Himself pointed out "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

If I just answer your questions one by one without your thinking them through for yourself, you'll just keep asking more questions. I'm more interested in your being able to answer your own questions, based on the principles involved. The principles are the important thing. Once you undestand the principles, you can answer the questions.

This is why I'm concentrating on the argument. If the argument is sound, then you can proceed on the basis of confidence, knowing that the question will have an answer. That is, if you understand that all that we can know of God was revealed in Christ, then you know that whatever it is you are trying to understand about God is revealed in Christ. You know right where to look. And as Christ said, "Seek and ye shall find." It might take some doing, but you will find the answer in the life of Christ.

Ok, back to the argument. The premises are:
1)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
2)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity.

The conclusion is:
3)God (whether the Father or the Son) acts no differently at any time than what we see revealed in Jesus Christ.

Do you agree with this argument? If not, do you take issue with the premises, or with the conclusion?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/30/05 06:44 PM

Tom, we both already know what I believe. But what do you believe? I believe the answers to the questions is Jesus did not behave like Almighty God when He walked the earth as a human. He did not do everything He did before His incarnation because His mission was different.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/30/05 09:40 PM

But the Spirit of Prophesy tells us ALL that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity. So what you're saying cannot be true, if the statement from the Spirit of Prophesy is true, right?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 10/31/05 06:36 PM

No. I have shared quote after quote where the SOP clearly describes Jesus doing things He didn't do while He walked this planet as a human being. The quotes you posted do not contradict mine. The obvious answer to this apparent dilemma is not to assume your quotes trump mine - but, rather, they compliment one another. Exactly how they do this is clear to me. But your view of it is very much different mine. You believe you are spot on and that I am dead wrong.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/01/05 07:41 AM

If the Scriptures say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and you don't believe that, this isn't a case of one set of quotes trumping another, but of your not believing the principle that Christ does not change.

In the examples you gave of Christ apparently acting differently, the obvious answer is that He is only apparently acting differently, but not actually. Either that or the statements are false which say otherwise.

I'm trying to get you to see this simple logic. There is a premise

1)a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever
b)ALL that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son

and a conclusion

2)It's not possible to come up with an example of Jesus acting differently than the premises in 1)a) and 1)b) without disproving the premises.

So by coming up with supposed counterexamples, you're attempting to do something impossible. If the principles are true, a counterexample is not possible. That's the point I've been driving at regarding the arguments I've presented. If the arguments are not sound, you should be able to point to either a premise or inference which is not correct. So far you haven't mentioned anything.

Still waiting,

Tom
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/01/05 10:35 PM

Tom, the Bible and the SOP both make it abundantly clear that Jesus punished and destroyed millions of unsaved sinners by causing a worldwide flood. Please read the initial post of this thread.

You believe Jesus simply stopped holding back the inevitable forces of nature. But you have yet to demonstrate Jesus caused or permitted a worldwide flood during His earthly sojourn.

Did Jesus cause or permit the forces of nature to kill millions in a wolrdwide flood when He was on Earth?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/02/05 12:13 AM

MM: As I stated, I am anxious to answer your questions in more detail, but I am waiting for you to address the question I have been asking you before I do so. My question is, do you believe the following argument is sound?

Given:
a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever
b)ALL that we can know of God was revealed in the character of His life and Son

Then it follows that:
c)Jesus Christ has never acted, nor will He in the future, act materially different than He did while on earth.

If this argument is not sound, then either the premises are false, or the conclusion does not logically follow from the premises. Which is it, MM? If the argument IS sound, then you're wasting your time trying to come up with a counter example.

A brief answer to your question is that Jesus did do the things you are referencing, in principle, during His life on earth (although your method of phrasing the question I would say is misleading).
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/02/05 08:11 PM

I believe your equation applies to the mission of Jesus while He was on Earth. He did not come to judge or damn sinners. Rather, He came to make salvation available to us. I do not believe your formula takes into account everything Jesus has done or will do before and after His Earthly mission.

quote:
A brief answer to your question is that Jesus did do the things you are referencing, in principle, during His life on earth (although your method of phrasing the question I would say is misleading).
I cannot think of anything Jesus did while on Earth that even remotely compares to the Flood. Yes, He cursed a tree and drove people out of the temple, but these do not come close to the Flood. The principles are totally different.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/02/05 10:17 PM

The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

I agree with you that these statements are in reference to Christ's ministry on earth.

It appears to me that you are contradicting the above premises by your assertion that Christ did not do anything even remotely like the flood while here on earth.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and Christ didn't do anything remotely like the flood while here on earth, can you explain how your assertion is not contradicting statements a) and b) above?

What I believe is that Jesus did not act differently in principle from how God, or Christ Himself, acts at any other time, whether before or after Christ's coming. My proof of this are the statements a) and b) above.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/03/05 06:17 PM

What I am saying is that Jesus hasn't used a Flood to depopulate the Earth since the first time He did it. In fact, the rainbow is a sign He will never do it again. So, yes, your formula does not account for the Flood.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/03/05 06:45 PM

The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

It appears to me that you are contradicting the above premises by your assertion that Christ did not do anything even remotely like the flood while here on earth.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and Christ didn't do anything remotely like the flood while here on earth, can you explain how your assertion is not contradicting statements a) and b) above?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/04/05 07:14 AM

quote:
... your formula does not account for the Flood.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/03/05 09:21 PM

MM, If what you assert were true, it would mean my argument is invalid, either because the premises are not true, or the conclusion does not follow from the assertion. Which is it?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/05/05 04:06 AM

Invalid.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/05/05 08:29 AM

Here's the question:

quote:
MM, If what you assert were true, it would mean my argument is invalid, either because the premises are not true, or the conclusion does not follow from the assertion. Which is it?
Do you see why "invalid" does not answer the question?

Would you care to answer the question? I've been trying to ask it for over a week now! That's right, nine days! This is the tenth time I'm asking it. But I'll keep trying until either you answer it, or refuse.

Patiently waiting,

Tom
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/06/05 05:52 AM

quote:
... it would mean my argument is invalid ...
I agree. But, refer to my 9 previous posts (give or take), to read about my qualified answer.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/06/05 06:49 AM

This is still not an answer. Here's the question:

The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

The conclusion is:

c)Jesus Christ did not in principle any differently during His life on earth than during any other time of His existence, whether past, present or future.

If this argument is not valid, it is either because the premises are false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Here are a couple of acceptable answers:

i)The argument is invalid, because the premises are false.
ii)The argument is invalid because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Since you have already asserted the argument is invalid, it must be so for one of these two reasons. If you say it is ii), it would be nice if you provided some justification for why you think this is the case. If you answer i), there is no need for further clarification.

-----------------------------------------------

Here's the problem in more detail. Inspiration tells us that ALL we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus Christ in his humanity. Yet you, MM, contrary to inspiration, are suggesting that no, not everything we can know about God was revealed in Christ's life while on earth because while here on earth He didn't do anything remotely like the flood.

So you are asserting something contrary to inspiration. Why?

It seems clear to me your assertion cannot be true, because it contradicts the clear statement that ALL we can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ during His life here on earth.

Another possibility is that you are in error regarding your assertion, and Jesus Christ did act, in principle, in ways during His life on earth which was in complete harmony with how He acted during the flood.

So we have two possibilities:
a)Jesus acted in principle the same during the flood as during His life on earth, in which case the above stated principles may be true:

or

b)Jesus acted in principle different during the flood than while on earth, in which case you, MM, would be correct, but the inspired principles would be wrong.

It seems to me more likely that your idea is in error, MM, than that the principles of inspiration are in error.

Another possibility is that your idea is in harmony with the principles of inspiration, and I would expect that you believe this is the case. I would be open for you to explain how these things, which appear to be out of harmony, really aren't.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/07/05 03:09 AM

Tom, I agree with you that the principles you've outline should help us understand how and why Jesus used a Flood to kill millions of people.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/07/05 08:33 AM

MM, what's the point in posting something that starts, "I agree ..." when you know the person to whom you are posting doesn't agree with your statement. Are you purposely trying to annoy me? To what end? I notice you post this way in response to others besides me, so I know it's not something personal against me. I'm sure it's as annoying to the others as it is to me.

If it is not your purpose to annoy, but to engage in an honest discussion, please answer my question. It's a simple one.

The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

The conclusion is:

c)Jesus Christ did not in principle any differently during His life on earth than during any other time of His existence, whether past, present or future.

If this argument is not valid, it is either because the premises are false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Here are a couple of acceptable answers:

i)The argument is invalid, because the premises are false.
ii)The argument is invalid because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/07/05 06:31 PM

quote:
The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

I agree.

PS - Please do not refer to my way or manner of posting. You have no way of knowing what my feelings are. Thank you.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/07/05 10:28 PM

Apparently you agree with my premises, by your "I agree" comment. That is:

quote:
The two statements I have been using as premises are:

a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son (on earth).

I agree.

I assume this "I agree" means that you agree with the premises. My conclusion from these premises are that it follows, given a) and b), that Jesus Christ could not have done anything fundamentally different in principle than what He did during His life on earth. Do you agree that this conclusion follows from these premises?

Here's an analagous situation. Let's say I say of you, "All that can be known of MM was revealed during his years in grade school". Would it not follow from this statement that you cannot be doing something fundamentally different in principle than what you did in grade school? If one could postulate that you are doing something differently now than in grade school, then the above proposition would be false.

Going back to premises a) and b), you are attempting to introduce a counter-example, that God (or Christ) acted fundamentally differently during the flood than how Christ acted during His life on earth. If this counter-example were true, then it would disprove the premises which you said you agreed with.

Do you understand what I'm saying? If not, I'll give up. If you do, please explain how your counter-example doesn't disprove the premises that you said you agree with.

Regarding your posting, I wasn't concerned with your feelings when you posted, just the content of your post. I notice you often post "I agree" when it's obvious that your position is not in agreement with the position that you are "agreeing" with.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/08/05 06:08 PM

Okay, Tom, now that we are on the same page I'm ready to listen to your view of the Flood. What did Jesus do that was fundamentally and principally the same as the Flood when He walked this planet as a human being.

Regarding your grade school analogy: if a person did something different than the way they did it in grade school then it would be explained as an anomaly - a strange act.

PS - You are second guessing my motives when you post things like you do. Since you cannot possibly know my motives, please refrain from making such comments. Thank you.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/09/05 07:56 AM

Okay, Tom, now that we are on the same page I'm ready to listen to your view of the Flood. What did Jesus do that was fundamentally and principally the same as the Flood when He walked this planet as a human being.

As surprising as it is for me to write this, I find that after two weeks, you still haven't answered my question. I don't know what "now that we are on the same page" means. I understand you have accepted the premises I stated as true, but it appears to me that you do not accept the conclusion, although you have not actually stated that. If it is true that you do not accept the conclusion, which is that given that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that ALL that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity, then it follows that neither God nor Christ either acted in the past or will act in the future in a way which is fundamentally different in principle than how Christ acted during His life on earth.

It appears to me that you disagree with this conclusion, yet it appears to me to follow logically from the premises. Basically it's just restating the premises in other words. Do you agree with this? If not, why not? What is unsound about this argument?


Regarding your grade school analogy: if a person did something different than the way they did it in grade school then it would be explained as an anomaly - a strange act.

So should we adjust the premises I've suggested then? Like:
a)Jesus Christ, often the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)Not all, but lots, of what can be know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

Would this be more accurate?


PS - You are second guessing my motives when you post things like you do. Since you cannot possibly know my motives, please refrain from making such comments. Thank you.

I can't recall anything I posted which guessed at your motives. I simply pointed out that it's annoying, and asked you why you do it, as well as asking you why.

Here's what you wrote, "Tom, I agree with you that the principles you've outline should help us understand how and why Jesus used a Flood to kill millions of people." This would be as if I wrote, "Mike, I agree with you that the principles you've outlined should help us understand how and why Paul was referring to himself as unconverted in Romans 7." That Paul was referring to himself as unconverted is a point you have made clear you do not believe, so for me to say "I agree with you" regarding something you obviously don't believe would be an odd thing for me to write, wouldn't it?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/09/05 06:12 PM

quote:
It appears to me that you disagree with this conclusion, yet it appears to me to follow logically from the premises. Basically it's just restating the premises in other words. Do you agree with this?
Yes. What you haven't made clear yet is how Jesus demonstrated the fundamental principle revealed during the Flood while He was on earth as a human being. Do you have an answer?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/09/05 08:47 PM

Just to be clear on this, I have stated that:
a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
b)ALL that can be known of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son

Therefore
c)Jesus did nothing fundamentally different in principle during His life than God or Jesus have done at any other time, whether in the past or in the future.

I stated that c) was basically just restating a) and b). You are agreeing with this. However earlier you wrote:

"I have shared quote after quote where the SOP clearly describes Jesus doing things He didn't do while He walked this planet as a human being."

This does NOT agree with c). My conclusion is directly opposed to what you're suggesting. So how can you agree with what I have written, when you state something which is directly in conflict with it? Have you changed your mind? (this seems to me to be exceedingly unlikely). So could you clarify what you mean by "Yes" to my answer if you agreed with me. Are you agreeing to the same thing I'm asking you about? Or "agreeing" with something else?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/10/05 04:30 AM

Tom, as amazing as it sounds, I agree with you. You and I both agree Jesus did not cause or permit a worldwide flood to kill millions while He was on earth as a human being. The question is, though, did He do anything fundamentally or principally similar? That is, did He do anything that was based on the same principles that the Flood was based on? Earlier you implied, or so I thought you did, that Jesus did do things based on the same principles.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/10/05 08:30 AM

Boy that took a long time. Why didn't you just say you agreed two weeks ago when I first asked the question? That would have been easier.

Here are some principles relating to the flood:
1)Action had to be taken, or else the race would have perished.
2)God worked hard to save the lost. He sent a messenger, who preached long and hard a message of salvation.
3)The messenger was mocked, despised and unheaded.
4)God withdrew His protective/sustaining hand, and ruin resulted.

I can think of a number of incidents in Christ's life which follow this pattern. The most striking one, to my mind, is the destruction of Jersulem, which fits this to a tee.

I think of the above principles, only the last would you take issue with. You would say (please correct me if I mistate your position) that rather than God withdrawing His protective/sustaining hand that He rather inflicted pain, suffering and death with a vindictive, blood-thristy hand (I'm just using language you've used in the past here, but again, if I'm misrepresenting your position, please correct me).

I don't see your perspective in Christ's life. I see Him working to save, and destruction coming as a result of refusing that work.

Some other incidents which have these principles are:
1)Judas
2)Fig tree
3)Swines plunging from cliff
4)Lazarus dying

I should comment on Lazarus' dying, since it's a little different. Lazarus, like Job, did not suffer because of something he had done, but in order that principles of truth could be revealed. Sickness could not have overcome Lazarus had Christ been near (Desire of Ages); it was only when Christ withdrew that Lazarus could die.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/10/05 06:04 PM

Tom, thank you for making your point of view clear. You're right, we don't agree on how God caused the Flood. The quote at the beginning of this thread makes it clear, to me at least, how God caused the Flood. The only thing that comes close to the principles involved, as far as I can see, is when Jesus twice drove out the unholy traffickers in the temple, and when He uttered woes and promised punishment and destruction.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/10/05 10:34 PM

MM, I thought of cleansing the temple of the moneychangers, but didn't see that as really being the same principle, although it could be. It's really more in line with the judgment, it seems to me.

The woes of the Pharisees is included in my mind with the destruction of Jersualem. Jesus warned what would happen if they rejected him.

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)

These principles we see spelled out in the destruction of Jerusalem are certainly easily seen in Christ's life. So this would take care of the woes on the Pharisees.

Regarding the cleansing of the temple, we read:

quote:
Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts. In their flight they met others on their way to the temple, and bade them turn back, telling them what they had seen and heard. Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. In this scene He saw symbolized the dispersion of the whole Jewish nation for their wickedness and impenitence.

And why did the priests flee from the temple? Why did they not stand their ground? He who commanded them to go was a carpenter's son, a poor Galilean, without earthly rank or power. Why did they not resist Him? Why did they leave the gain so ill acquired, and flee at the command of One whose outward appearance was so humble?

Christ spoke with the authority of a king, and in His appearance, and in the tones of His voice, there was that which they had no power to resist. At the word of command they realized, as they had never realized before, their true position as hypocrites and robbers. When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ's countenance; they realized the import of His words. They felt as if before the throne of the eternal Judge, with their sentence passed on them for time and for eternity. For a time they were convinced that Christ was a prophet; and many believed Him to be the Messiah. The Holy Spirit flashed into their minds the utterances of the prophets concerning Christ. Would they yield to this conviction? (DA 162)

In this text we see that what caused the moneychangers to leave was the revelation of truth. They saw their true position as hypocrits, and fled in the face of the condemnation they felt.

So in both the incidents you mention we see God working through the principles of love, mercy and truth; not force. God in love reveals the truth for the purpose of saving. For those who reject the truth, the response is a negative one, but not because of God's work (although the enemy presents it is this way) but because of their own choice.

This is what the inspired commentary on these events tells us. So there is nothing in Christ's life which presents the view of the flood you present, as far as I can see. Given the principle that there is nothing we can know of God that is not revealed in Christ's life, until you can produce some evidence in Christ's life which agrees with the view you are espousing, I can only conclude that it is in error.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/11/05 06:57 PM

Okay. Thank you for sharing. I am convinced that the inspired testimony at the beginning of this thread accurately describes the character of God in light of the Flood. It is a "strange act", behaviour that is seemingly inconsistent with a loving and merciful Lord. The Flood is not the first time God has behaved in way that seems out of character, nor will it be the last time. We have not seen the last of God's "strange" behaviour. Not until the flames and smoke of the lake of fire are extinquished, not until the earth is renewed, not until paradise is restored, will God cease His strange actions. And, it will be none too soon for His taste.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/11/05 09:30 PM

Okay. Thank you for sharing. I am convinced that the inspired testimony at the beginning of this thread accurately describes the character of God in light of the Flood. It is a "strange act", behaviour that is seemingly inconsistent with a loving and merciful Lord.

I agree with this. I'm quite sure Rosangela would agree with me as to the motive as well, and you might too. I see the motive as being one of love, to protect the race. God destroyed the world with a flood, but only after working actively for 120 years through His messenger to save. In the work of destruction, God's character of Savior not Destroyer (recall Satan is the destroyer, God the restorer) is seen in several ways.

First of all, if God did not act, the race would have perished, so God had to act in order to save the race. Secondly, God, through a messenger, worked for 120 years to save. "Whosoever would" could come. Only those who persistently rejected God's grace were lost. Anyone who would have heeded God's saving message would have been saved, regardless of their sins.

Where you and I differ on the flood is regarding how God's actions were performed, which I think is based on a logical reasoning on your part on at several counts.

First of all, there is ample evidence that the flood was precipitated primarily by waters beneath the crust of the earth. There is the record of Scripture, that the waters burst forth from the depths. Secondly there is the record of the Spirit of Prophecy that God made use of waters beneath the earth's crust, of which the antedilians were ignorant, when they "proved" scientifically that a flood was impossible. Thirdly there is scientific models Creationists have constructed which argue that the flood was started when waters beneath the earth's crust "burst forth".

In order for the waters to "burst forth", they had to be under pressure. If they were under pressure, all God had to do was to allow whatever it was that was holding the pressure back loose, and the water would "burst forth". It would be like a dam breaking, or moving your thumb away from a garden hose.

So given the water was under pressure, which it would have to be to "burst forth", it is quite possible that God had been acting the whole time to keep the water under pressure in check. He could have been using angels to do so. We have much precident for angels working in this way, perhaps the best example being the angels holding back the winds of strife. At the appropriate time, God commands, "Release!" and the angels stop their protective work. Ruin follows as a result of rejecting God's saving work.

The second area where I see a lack of logical reasoning is that you fail to harmonize God's character in the flood with that of Jesus Christ's revelation during His life on earth. The whole purpose of Jesus' mission was to reveal the character of God, yet there is not a single incident in His entire life which is, to use your own words, even remotely like how you perceive God to have acted in the flood.

I find it amazing that you hold to the following:

a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.

You've stated both these points on this thread several time. It should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both. To simultaneously hold to mutually contradictory positions is indeed a "strange act".


The Flood is not the first time God has behaved in way that seems out of character, nor will it be the last time.

I agree with this as well. The key word is "seems". What happens, as described, indeed "seems" to be out of character, but upon further review, when all the facts are known, it will be seen that God has never acted out of character.

We are told that ALL that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. The purpose of Jesus Christ was to reveal the character of God. The judgment will reveal that God has NEVER, not even once, acted in any contrary to how Jesus acted while on earth.

God is gracious, kind, generous, merciful, compassaionate, forgiving, patient; He is self-sacrificing love. He love the world so much, He was willing to risk eternally losing His own Son. He has been maligned by the evil one as harsh, severe, unforgiving and arbitrary, and it is a shame that many see Him as acting acording to the principles of Satan's government (such as force), but it will be seen that love, mercy and truth are the means by which God unfailingly administers His government.


We have not seen the last of God's "strange" behaviour. Not until the flames and smoke of the lake of fire are extinquished, not until the earth is renewed, not until paradise is restored, will God cease His strange actions. And, it will be none too soon for His taste.

I agree with this two. As long as sin exists, God will be blamed for bad things which happen. Only when there are no more bad things to happen will the blame cease.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/12/05 08:41 AM

God not only causes or permits things to happen when people refuse to heed His help and warnings and pleadings to save themselves from promised coming doom, He also punishes them. And then He will resurrect them at the end of time and punish them again before He eliminates them in the lake of fire.

By the way, I noticed you didn't mention the water that fell from the sky during the Flood. Why not? Also, what makes you think the subterranean water was under pressure of its own accord? How did it get that way, and why wasn’t it that way in the beginning? What caused the change?

You seem to believe the only way water could have gushed or burst forth the bowels of the earth is due to naturally occurring pressurization. What makes you so absolutely certain there is no other possible explanation?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/14/05 05:47 PM

Before answering your post, did you notice that your statements are self-contradictory? I pointed this out, but you made no reference to it. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote:

quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:

a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.

You've stated both these points on this thread several time. It should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both. To simultaneously hold to mutually contradictory positions is indeed a "strange act".

End of quote. Back to your post


God not only causes or permits things to happen when people refuse to heed His help and warnings and pleadings to save themselves from promised coming doom, He also punishes them.

These aren't two separate things. God punishes people by allowing them to suffer the results of their choices. Inspiration makes this point countless times. Look how often EGW quotes, "Oh Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself." She does it for the destruction of the wicked, the last plagues, the destruction of Jerusalem. If we choose to act contrary to the principles of God's governement, we bring ruin upon ourselves, not because God gets ticked off, but because only His principles lead to life.


And then He will resurrect them at the end of time and punish them again before He eliminates them in the lake of fire.

We had a thread at one time about the resurrection of the wicked, didn't we? If you think the only reason God resurrects the wicked is to inflict pain upon them, I think your understanding of this event is limited. God will act in no way differently than how He revealed Himself through His Son Jesus Christ. ALL that we can know of God was revealed in the life of Christ. God will act just like that. He can do no other; that's His character. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.

By the way, I noticed you didn't mention the water that fell from the sky during the Flood. Why not? Also, what makes you think the subterranean water was under pressure of its own accord? How did it get that way, and why wasn’t it that way in the beginning? What caused the change?

The water from beneath is what fell from above. That should have been obvious; I didn't think it needed mentioning. What caused these things to happen is the same thing that causes the stars to burn out, which are burning out by the millions. It's the same thing that causes entropy to rise. The same that creates black holes and neutron stars. It's the immense power of sin. Have you ever stopped to think how it is that stars millions of light years away die? That should give a small inkling as to the destructive power of sin.

You seem to believe the only way water could have gushed or burst forth the bowels of the earth is due to naturally occurring pressurization.

It would have un pressurization. That's what I said. I didn't say "naturally occuring pressurization" but simply that it had to be under pressure. Otherwise it wouldn't have gone up.

What makes you so absolutely certain there is no other possible explanation.

An elementary knowledge of physics.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/14/05 10:52 PM

This is from http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=506.

This is the first few paragraphs of the article. It brings out the point that I've been making that the event which triggered the flood was the waters bursting forth from the depths.

quote:
Though we are far from a full understanding of the Flood, the Bible does give us a clue when it says, on that "same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:11_12). Geologists note three succinct mechanisms which God used that bear our consideration.

The trigger for the rest was that "all the fountains of the great deep" were ruptured. The fountains may have been underwater volcanos or materials from deep inside spewing out into the ocean basins.

Evidently there were great subterranean chambers of water which belched forth their contents causing volcanism and tectonism on a broad scale. After being emptied some collapsed to become deep sedimentary basins which uplifted later in the Flood to form mountain chains.

Today when a volcano erupts under water, or if there is an underwater earthquake or mud slide, it causes a tsunami or tidal wave; a dynamic energy wave which pushes water toward the continents, devastating coastal areas. At the start of the Flood all the fountains of the great deep were rent open sending repeated pulses of water toward the continents from every direction bringing sediments and marine fossils to the land. Cyclic ocean currents and tidal actions would have left their imprint on these sediments.

Along the mid-ocean ridges once molten rock and other super hot fluids would have encountered the relatively cold ocean waters, evaporating huge volumes of sea water, ultimately yielding intense rainfall and precipitating their dissolved solids.

Torrential rain poured down. This was a special rain for forty days and forty nights but it continued for a hundred and fifty days, through the first half of the Flood. This continually replenished source of water would have bombarded the earth, eroding and redepositing sediments on a global scale....

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/15/05 05:49 PM

What do you think about theory that there was an envelop or window of water in the atmosphere that made the entire earth an even tropical temperature from pole to pole and that this water fell to the earth when Jesus caused it to rain? And that this source of water united with water from beneath the world to cause a Flood?

Sister White describes two sources of water, not one - heaven and earth. It doesn't say water from beneath shot up and then fell from above. I believe the source of pressure was Jesus, not nature. It didn't exist until He caused it. Everything in nature obeys His voice. Jesus upholds the laws and forces that nature obeys. They are in perfect harmony with His will.

quote:
"The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, AND the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood.

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities.

Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/15/05 10:57 PM


Before answering your post, did you notice that your statements above are self-contradictory? I pointed this out, but you made no reference to it. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote:

quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:

a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.

You've stated both these points on this thread several time. It should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both. To simultaneously hold to mutually contradictory positions is indeed a "strange act".

End of quote. Back to your post


What do you think about theory that there was an envelop or window of water in the atmosphere that made the entire earth an even tropical temperature from pole to pole and that this water fell to the earth when Jesus caused it to rain? And that this source of water united with water from beneath the world to cause a Flood? Sister White describes two sources of water, not one - heaven and earth. It doesn't say water from beneath shot up and then fell from above.

I think this is very likely. It is in harmoney with the creationist models, as well as inspiration it seems to me.

I believe the source of pressure was Jesus, not nature.

This is a very odd belief. It's contrary to science, reason and inspiration. When you drill for oil, the oil will burst forth because it's under pressure. You're aware of this, right? Do you think this is because Jesus is pressuring it, not nature? Do you think water would act any different than oil? The forces under the earth are continually present, just like gravity is. Do you think when someone falls to earth it is not because of nature, but because Jesus makes him fall?

It didn't exist until He caused it. Everything in nature obeys His voice. Jesus upholds the laws and forces that nature obeys. They are in perfect harmony with His will.

This is obviously untrue. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. God comes to save, not to destroy. Satan is the destroyer; God the restorer. Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonitist power. There are all statements from inspiration. Look at what happened to Job. It was not God who caused these things to happen to him, but Satan.

Satan is the bad guy; God the good one. We should be able to distinguish the two.


The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, AND the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood.

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities.

I agree with this, provided your use of voice is the same as what we find in inspiration.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 03:15 AM

Tom, I am not going to respond to your opinion and assumption that my views are contradictory. Please take the time to reword your objection. Thank you.

I do not believe the core of the earth was under pressure before the Flood, or that Jesus had to work to restrain the water above or beneath the earth from naturally bursting their boundaries and killing everyone on the planet. However, it is different today, this side of the Flood. There is a triple curse resting upon it. Nature is not the same as it was before the Flood.

1BC 1085
All nature is confused; for God forbade the earth to carry out the purpose He had originally designed for it. Let there be no peace to the wicked, saith the Lord. The curse of God is upon all creation. Every year it makes itself more decidedly felt (MS 76a, 1901). {1BC 1085.5}

The first curse was pronounced upon the posterity of Adam and upon the earth, because of disobedience. The second curse came upon the ground after Cain slew his brother Abel. The third most dreadful curse from God, came upon the earth at the Flood (4SG 121). {1BC 1085.6}

7BC 946, 947
9 (Rev. 22:10-12). The Boundary of Divine Forbearance.--God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but His forbearance has a limit, and when the boundary is past, there is no second probation. His wrath will go forth and He will destroy without remedy. {7BC 946.5}

When men, being in power, oppress and spoil their fellow men, and no earthly tribunal can be found to do justice, God will interpose in behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. He will punish for every act of oppression. No earthly wisdom can secure wrongdoers against the judgments of heaven. And when men put their trust in earthly powers instead of their Maker, when they become lifted up in pride and self-confidence, God will in His own time make them to be despised (Letter 122, 1900). {7BC 946.6}

10 (Ps. 27:5; 91:9, 10; Isa. 2:17-21; see EGW on Gen. 6:17; Rev. 20:9, 10, 14). God the Refuge of His People.--Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones . . . [Ps. 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}

Destruction From Earth and Sky.--The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. . . . {7BC 946.8}

Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth, which He will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish His purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God (ST Jan. 3, 1878). {7BC 946.9}

(Ps. 144:5, 6; Nahum 1:5, 6.) Destruction by Water and Fire.--In the bowels of the earth God has in reserve the weapons that He will use to destroy the sinful race. Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava [Nahum 1:5, 6; Ps. 144:5, 6 quoted] (MS 21, 1902). {7BC 946.10}
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 10:07 AM

MM, how's this?

Your statements above apear to me to be self-contradictory. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote:

quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:

a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.

You've stated both these points on this thread several time. I would think it should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both, which I don't understand. Please enlighten me.

Thank you.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 10:28 AM

It is sin which caused nature to change. Had there been no sin, nature would have been as God designed it. Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power (This is from the Spirit of Prophesy. This antagonisit power is not God.)

God is the good guy. He is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer (also from the Spirit of Prophecy). It is important to distinguish between the two.

Here's a quote from The Great Controversy.

quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.
Notice the part in bold. There is no more decisive tentimony of God's hatred of sin and the certain punishment that will fall upon the quilty than the destruction of Jerusalem! And what happened there? God withdrew His protection, which led to there destruction. There is no more decisive testimony of certain punishment than this.

This is worth considering.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 06:25 PM

Tom, you and I both agree Jesus never killed anyone with a Flood while on earth as a human being. He spoke of it and things similar happening in the past and that will happen in the future, but during His sojourn here He never killed anyone with a Flood, or in any other fashion. However, Jesus did do things that were fundamentally similar in principle. For example, cursing the tree, driving out the unholy traffickers, and issuing woes. I say similar in principle because they hinted at judgment to come. But it was dissimilar in that He did not execute judgment, as in the Flood, while on earth. He said that He was waiting to reward people according their works until He returns.

I see nothing contradictory about this understanding of the truth. Now, please, let's move on. Thank you. If you are still convinced it is wrong, then prove it by telling the truth and letting it speak for itself. Please do not spend time dissing on my view. Stick to the truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 06:32 PM

Tom, the fall of Jerusalem and the demise of the Jews at the hands of heathens is one way God deals with unsaved sinners. But it is not the only way. God chose not to draw upon His natural arsenals to punish and destroy the Jews. Instead, He chose to allow the Romans to do it for Him. Permitting earthly armies and kingdoms to conqueror His people is just one of many ways God deals with sinful, erring people. He did not use this method to deal with the sinfulness of the antediluvians.

Tell me, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here?
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 06:49 PM

quote:
Tom, the fall of Jerusalem and the demise of the Jews at the hands of heathens is one way God deals with unsaved sinners. But it is not the only way. God chose not to draw upon His natural arsenals to punish and destroy the Jews. Instead, He chose to allow the Romans to do it for Him. Permitting earthly armies and kingdoms to conqueror His people is just one of many ways God deals with sinful, erring people. He did not use this method to deal with the sinfulness of the antediluvians.

Tell me, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here?

Your last question is the one that blows your view to pieces. Your question is in harmony with my position. It is your position that it is not in harmony with.

That is, I ask you, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here, or do anything remotely similar? YOU are the one who needs to provide an example, not me, because YOU are the one who says Jesus acts in this way, not me. So why are you asking me?

YOU are the one who said Jesus did not do anything even remotely like the flood. And yet you maintain that Jesus did nothing on earth which is fundamentally different in principle than the flood. [Confused]
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/16/05 10:55 PM

quote:

Tom, you and I both agree Jesus never killed anyone with a Flood while on earth as a human being. He spoke of it and things similar happening in the past and that will happen in the future, but during His sojourn here He never killed anyone with a Flood, or in any other fashion. However, Jesus did do things that were fundamentally similar in principle. For example, cursing the tree, driving out the unholy traffickers, and issuing woes. I say similar in principle because they hinted at judgment to come. But it was dissimilar in that He did not execute judgment, as in the Flood, while on earth. He said that He was waiting to reward people according their works until He returns.

I see nothing contradictory about this understanding of the truth. Now, please, let's move on.

Even though you don't see the contradiction, I see one. You say on the one hand that Jesus never did anything remotely like the flood during His life on earth, and on the other that He did do things which we like the flood. That's a contradiction.

If Jesus did nothing during His life remotely like the flood during His life on earth, then this contradicts the principles that ALL that we can know about God was revealed during Christ's life. OTOH, if Jesus did do something like the flood during His life on earth, that's a contradiction to your statement that He didn't.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/17/05 06:23 PM

Tom, all I'm saying is that Jesus did not cause a Flood to kill people while on earth as a man. Do you agree? You believe He ceased holding back the impending forces of nature and people were killed with a Flood? While our views of how the Flood happened are different, the results are the same, namely, people died in a flood.

1. So, according to your view, when did Jesus cease holding back the forces of nature, while on earth, and, as a result, people died in a flood?

2. You and I both agree Jesus allowed the Romans to defeat and displace the Jews in AD 70. But when did He, while on earth, allow a heathen army to defeat and displace the Jews?

I agree that while on earth Jesus demonstrated, in principle, things fundamentally similar to the flood and the destruction of Jerusalem. But He did not cause or allow a flood, a flood, I'm saying a flood, to kill people. And, nothing He did while on earth, though similar in principle, came close to the death and devastation caused by the flood or the fall of Jerusalem.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/17/05 11:07 PM

The magnitude of the acts are not important, but the principle governing the act. The principle is when God removed His sustaining/protecting hand, ruin comes. The principle is spelled out clearly in GC 35, 36

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

Careful study of these paragraphs reveals principles that are not specific in scope, but are general in nature. They serve to explain how destruction takes place, how God's wrath transpires. There is no need for any other mechanism than that described here, and holding to some other view must be wrong because it requires one to hold to a view which is contrary to that which was revealed in the life of Christ.

You have postulated that God sometimes destroys as described here, and sometimes uses some other means which was never demonatrated in the life of Christ. But given that ALL that can be known of God was revealed in the life of Christ, this hypothesis must be rejected. Christ's entire life demonstrated the principle outlined above. It agrees with the statement of the Spirit of Prophecy that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagnistic power. Satan is the destroyer, God the restorer.

Not once during Jesus' entire life did He cause sickness, suffering and death to come upon anyone. Instead He tirelessly fought against these things. In so doing, He accurately represented God's character.

Note in the above quote that Satan is clever, and hides what he does by accusing God of doing what he does. Unfortunately, there's many who believe Satan.

Regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, there's absolultely nothing in Scripture that designates anyone but God as being responsible for its destruction, yet we see from the above description that God was innocent. Given that it's Satan purpose to distort God's character, shouldn't we heed the principles which God has revealed to us? Why believe the enemy?

God is not like Satan! He is not the destroyer. God is just like Jesus Christ, the One who went about doing good, who tirelessly healed, and fought the enemy, who does destroy and cause sickness, suffering and death.

Note above it says, "We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy." This indicates an underestimation on our part of recongnizing God's work. This lack of appreciation of God's restraining influence is exactly what I am seeing in your perspective. Your posts indicate a lack of perception of both sin's destructive power, and God's work in protecting us from it. If one does not understand the nature of sin, it seems difficult to me that one will understand the nature of our protection and deliverance from it.

The fact that it states that no more decisive tesitimony of God's hatred of sin can be given than the destruction of Jerusalem is significant. If God did act in the manner you suggest, certainly that would be more decisive testimony against sin. That is, if God acted in Satan's place, and destroyed those who rebelled against Him, and caused sickness, suffering and death, then this would be a more decisive testimony of God's hatred of sin then God's simply withdrawing His protection. That should be clear.

The reason there is no more decisive testimony as to God's hatred of sin, and its sure punishment, is because the destruction of Jerusalem explains how God punishes sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/18/05 06:59 PM

Tom, I appreciate you reiterating your view. You have made it clear that you believe Jesus exercises His wrath toward sinners by withholding His protecting hand, by allowing Satan to cause suffering and death, that Jesus never lifts a hand against mankind. However, you did not answer these two questions:

quote:
1. So, according to your view, when did Jesus cease holding back the forces of nature, while on earth, and, as a result, people died in a flood?

2. You and I both agree Jesus allowed the Romans to defeat and displace the Jews in AD 70. But when did He, while on earth, allow a heathen army to defeat and displace the Jews?

Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/21/05 09:10 AM

Mike, I'm going to be gone for awhile, a little over a week. If you wish to revive the conversation, we can at that time (like Tuesday of next week)

I think I've answered your questions several times on this thread. The principles are in the GC quote I cited at length.

You're making things too complicated I think. It's very simple:

1)Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
2)Jesus Christ is the perfect revelation of God's character. ALL that we can know of God was revealed in Him.
3)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Your quesitons strike me as rather silly. I really don't see the point in them. Jesus lived during 4BC until 30 AD. Why are you asking me when He did things during this time frame which happened outside this time frame? This is clearly impossible. He couldn't have done something in 4000 BC during 4BC to 30 AD.

The only question that makes sense is what episodes happened during Christ's life which were similar to the flood in principle. First of all, we see that at no time during Christ's life did He act in the way you think He did during the flood, which means your view of the flood is wanting, don't you think? If ALL that can be known of God was revealed during Christ's life on earth, and nothing during His life on earth revealed the view you have, then that view must be suspect, correct? That's how it seems to me.

It was only because Christ did not heed Lazarus' families' pleas for Him to return that Lazarus could die. The demons asked for permission to enter into the swine, and we see what happened when Christ permitted that. When Judas turned away from Christ, we see what happened there as well. The cursing of the fig tree, as the Spirit of Prophecy points out, was an acted parable of the destruction of Jerusalem, the principles of which are spelled out in detail in my post before this one. The cleansing of the temple was a judgment scene, where those who opposed Christ's methods fled in terror when their consciences were awakened as divinity flashed through humanity. Christ did not use violence against them to get His way.

Is God a God of violence? Should we serve Him because He will destroy us like squished grapes if we don't? Or worse yet, torture us in scalding liquid of unimaginable pain? I see nothing of the God you espouse in the life of Christ. I see no violence there. No recourse to force. However, I do see warnings against the powers of sin and evil, as well as much which illustrates the truth that ruin must inevitably result if God removes His sustaining or protecting hand.

God bless until my return,

Tom
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/22/05 07:39 AM

Okay. Let's let it rest at that. I believe Jesus caused the Flood to happen supernaturally, and you believe He allowed it to happen naturally.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/27/05 08:48 PM

The following two articles are official church statements that affirm what I have been sharing on this thread.

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20Destroy.htm

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20get%20angry.htm
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/30/05 12:19 AM

quote:
Okay. Let's let it rest at that. I believe Jesus caused the Flood to happen supernaturally, and you believe He allowed it to happen naturally.
I think the use of the word "naturally" may give the wrong impression. What you wrote there isn't how I would say what I believe.

I think it's fine to say Jesus, or God, caused the Flood to happen supernatually. I agree with that. I just disagree with you regarding *how* God accomplished this task. I think He did it in a way which was in harmony with what Jesus revealed of God's character, whereas you believe Jesus did not do anything remotely resembling the flood during His life on earth. If your point of view were correct, I don't see how it could be rightly said that all that can be known of God was revealed in Jesus' humanity.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/30/05 02:15 AM

I found Dr. Holbrook's article to be confused in its reasoning. We could discuss it if you wish. (that would make for a good topic) I'll just mention two points.

First, he refers to the following principle several times:

"It should be noted that this mechanism occurs during probationary time when Satan is active. This mechanism obviously cannot function after the reign of Satan has terminated."

Often when people have no argument to make they use the expression, "obviously". That's an old mathematics trick, to slide through the more difficult parts of the proof. I knew a story about this I'll tell you if you're interested.

Anyway, it's not obvious, and it's not true, I don't believe, that God's uses different mechanisms either before or after probation. Actually God never uses different mechanisms, at least not as the author is conceptualizing the term, and this is an important point to understand, as it gets to the issue of the what the Great Controversy is all about.

Does God need to change His ways of doing things because of sin? If God's government is perfect, then it's principles should be sufficient to destroy sin. All that would be needed would be a revelation of truth.

This is really the whole question. Is all that's necessary a revelation of truth? Or does God need to alter His government in order to deal with the questions and accusations Satan introduced? Specifically, did God need to add force/destruction in order to deal with Satan's lies, even though we're told that force is not a principle of God's government and is only to be found in the enemy's? So does God use principle sof the enemy's government, principles which didn't exist until the enemy invented them, in order to destroy the enemy?

The second point touches on this same theme:

quote:
Destruction of the works of Satan by revealing the truth about God is simply a figurative way of speaking. The actual revelation destroys nothing.
It's not a figurative way of speaking. It's the truth. Actual revelation does destroy. Here's the principle clearly explained:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

DA 108 is similar, in saying "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked". What is the light of the glory of God? It is the revelation of the truth of His character. This revelation gives life to the righteous, and does well and truly destroy the wicked.

A question I had was he was evidently responding to something, but I don't know what.

A final point is I'm not sure if you want to consider the BRI as the official position of our church. For example, I'm sure you don't agree with this: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/humanaturechristunfallen.htm

Probably not all of this either: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Rom%205%3b12-21.htm

Probably not this one either:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Adam&Humanity.htm

I'm sure I could find more if I looked. If you are going to quote from a source as autoratitive, then you need to accept everything from that source as authoritative. You can't just cherry pick the things you like if you are going to be true to the source you are deeming authoritative.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/30/05 02:50 AM

The second article also had straw men and unsound arguments. Here's one example:

quote:
But these texts hardly imply that damnation is a natural result of our evil deeds any more than they imply that salvation is a natural result of our good works.
This is both an unsound argument (by implication) and a straw man. This would be an interesting argument to develop, but I'll restrain myself, unless there's some interest here.

I'll just mention one more item, which is a common blind spot (you mentioned the very same thing the author did)

quote:
Ah, but this is the Old Testament! Don't we find a different picture in the New?
No. The same dual emphasis is repeated in the New Testament: God saves and destroys (James 4:12). We are told to consider both "the kindness and the severity of God" (Rom. 11:22, RSV). One of the most intense pictures of God's vengeance is found in Revelation 19:11-21-and this is a portrayal of the Son! The same Testament that says "God is love" also says "God is a consuming fire." He is the avenger (Rom. 12:19; Heb. 10:30). Even Jesus got angry (Mark 3:5; compare Rev. 6:16). He destroyed the fig tree and threw the robbers out of the Temple (Mark 11:12-17). Jesus also spoke of the wrath of God (John 3:36); and portrayed God as a king who relentlessly punished and destroyed the impenitent (Matt. 18:34, 35; 22:7; Luke 12:46; 19:27). Thus the divine wrath is as clearly taught in the New Testament as in the Old.

The part in particular I'd like to point out is the part in bold. It points out:
a)Jesus destroyed the fig tree.
b)Threw the robbers out of the Temple
c)Portrayed God as a king who relentless punished and destroyed the impenitent.

Item a) is dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem. Item b) is misunderstanding and mistating what happened. The Desire of Ages makes is clear that it was the conscience of the wicked which forced them to run away from Christ. It was the revelation of truth which caused them to flee, when divinity flashed through humanity. The author is creating a false impression that Christ forced them out by physical force, which is a foolish idea anyway (the area was too big and there were too many of them). Item c) is also dealing with the destruction of Jersualem.

Regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, the Spirit of Prophecy writes:

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
Page 36
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)

So the author is missing the whole point in referencing Christ's acts as being in harmony with his (the author's) misunderstanding of God's character. The purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal the truth about God, which is that God is like Jesus. If we get so confused that we don't even know what Jesus is like, then that destroys the whole point of Jesus' revelation.

When one looks at Jesus' life, one see that He never harmed anybody. He revealed that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power; that while Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. Each of the statements the author referred to in attempting to portray Christ in a negative light are explained in great detail in their true light in the Spirit of Prophecy. See DA 161-163 regarding the cleansing of the Temple. See DA 582, 583 regarding the cursing of the fig tree.

Understanding that ALL that can be know of God was revealed in the character of His Son, all that remains in order to perceive God's character aright is to correctly interpret Jesus' life. Jesus' life was one of graciously overcoming evil with good, turning the other cheek, walking the second mile, washing the feet of His disciples. When asked if fire should be sent from heaven to destroy those who were opposing Him, he replied this was the spirit of the enemy, that He had come not to destroy but to save. This is the true revelation of God's character. God comes to save (heal), not to destroy. It's only when man interposes a perverse will and frustrates His grace that God's healing purposes are thwarted. Then the revelation of His gracious character, instead of saving as it does for the righteous, destroys, as explained here:

quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. (DA 764)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 12/01/05 07:40 AM

Okay, maybe "official view" is incorrect. However, I do agree with the conclusions in the two articles on Romans 5. Of course, I don't agree with the one on Jesus' human nature.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 11/30/05 08:42 PM

I'll take a look at the Romans 5 articles.

I know the discussion involved Waggoner and Jones' theology. There is an 1888 Message Study Committee which met with the BRI group for a number of years. Several of the members of the BRI group agreed with the MSC group, but those members were not present when they had an unannounced vote to publish the papers they did.

Returning to the Romans 5 articles, they were written from a pre-lapsarian vantage point. However, you hold to a post-lapsarian view. So for you to agree with Rodriquez on his view of Romans 5 is at the least logically inconsistent, because if you hold to his assumptions and interpretation of Romans 5, especially vs. 12-18, then if you are logically consistent, you should accept the pre-lapsarian position.

In order to understand a given subject, say for example Romans 5, one should understand the theological structure of the big picture, and how the given passage fits into that big picture. Rogriguez understands these things, and his view of Romans 5 is colored by his big picture perspective. His big picture perspective is completely different than yours, in areas related to justification, sancitification, perfection, and Christ's human nature. For you to agree with his position on Romans 5, yet disagree with him on the other issues, is not a logically viable alternative, because his view of Romans 5 is predicated on his view of these other issues, including principally his view of Christ's human nature.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 12/01/05 05:25 PM

Okay, let's open a new thread and study it closer. Sound good? I'll get it started on the SDA Church Concerns forum.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account - 12/02/05 07:03 AM

Ok. Thanks.