Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White

Posted By: Charity

Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/23/11 10:48 PM

The following statements from Ellen White comment on some of the most important end-time prophecies in scripture. They are generally straight forward and to the point. The only obscurity in these statements is that they don't support entrenched Adventist opinions and so are 'obscure' to most Adventists. Most of the statements have no added comments. In a few, I've added some brief comments in square brackets and italics [like this] May the Lord bless us in our studies. Sink the shaft deep. Be faithful. Here they are starting in the next post:
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/23/11 10:55 PM

To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth's history, and presents the duties and dangers of God's people. None need remain in ignorance, none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God. {RH, September 25, 1883 par. 6}

The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, [Daniel 8 and 10-12.] the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon have come to pass (Letter 57, 1896). [See Daniel 8:9-19, 8:22-27 and Daniel 11:29-12:13.]

The things revealed to Daniel were afterward complemented by the revelation made to John on the Isle of Patmos. These two books should be carefully studied. Twice Daniel
inquired, How long shall it be to the end of time? [Notice the answer given him in the time periods below.]

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days.

Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, [that is, that time just before the return of Christ] when the first angel's message should [will] be proclaimed to our world [in the power of the latter rain at the judgment of the living.] These matters are of infinite importance in these last days; but while "many shall be purified, and made white, and tried," "the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand." How true this is! Sin is the transgression of the law of God; and those who will not accept the light in regard to the law of God will not understand the proclamation of the first, second, and third angel's messages [when they are repeated under the power of the latter rain.] The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth's history. {TM 114-115.}
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/23/11 11:06 PM

The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy had waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But [it is at this time, when the ‘powers of darkness shall reach their height’ that the] the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show [future tense] the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth.

After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. [God’s people will gain a clearer understanding of the seven thunders through the study of the book of Daniel.] John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have [will have] their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them.

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would [will] transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not [will not be] best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would [will] be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were [are] to be proclaimed, but no further light was to [will] be revealed before these messages had done[do] their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer.

This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, [once the period referred to by the mighty Angel later in the same vision [See Revelation 11:3] is completed the mighty Angel declares that] the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, [covering the sounding of the first and second angel’s messages] there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.

The angel's position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls. [In the same way, the truth in regard to the end of all prophetic time will be a sweet message to believers.] (MS 59, 1900) {7BC 971.}
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/23/11 11:11 PM

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

[On one occasion after witnessing a severe storm] My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1). Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 [which describe the seals and the sealing] are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6.

When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth hail will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent. The hail had struck Brother Belden. One stone struck him on the back of the head, raising a large lump. {15MR 219.2 – 220.1}


The Lord calls for His people to locate away from the cities, for in such an hour as ye think not, fire and brimstone will be rained from heaven upon these cities. Proportionate to their sins will be their visitation. When one city is destroyed, let not our people regard this matter as a light affair, and think that they may, if favorable opportunity offers, build themselves homes in that same destroyed city. . . . {LDE 95.3}

Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book.--MR 1518 (May 10, 1906). {LDE 95.4}

Study the tenth chapter of Daniel, and mark particularly the fourteenth verse. "Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days" (Daniel 10:14). When our brethren and ministers shall feel the burden that should rest upon them, they will not be content with a few surface truths. They will sink the shaft deep, and will have the spirit that Daniel possessed. {9MR 365.2}

Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/23/11 11:20 PM

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness.... {Mar 199.3}

As the approach of the Roman armies was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy be a sign to us that the limit of God's forbearance is reached, that the measure of our nation's iniquity is full, and that the angel of mercy is about to take her flight, never to return. The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob's trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs' graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convents vaults: "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {Mar 199.4}

When the fifth seal was opened, John the Revelator in vision saw beneath the altar the company that were slain for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. After this came the scenes described in the eighteenth of Revelation, when those who are faithful and true are called out from Babylon. [The loud cry of Revelation 18 will be given during a time of persecution and martyrdom. The fifth seal preeminently applies to this future time.]{Mar 199.5}

Christ will restore the life taken; for He is the Life-giver: He will beautify the righteous with immortal life. {Mar 199.6}

Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses 31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1}

The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. {9T 267.}

Let God's workmen study the sixth chapter of Isaiah, [the commissioning of Isaiah] and the first and second chapters of Ezekiel [the commissioning of Ezekiel.] {TM 213.2}

To the prophet the wheel within a wheel, the appearances of living creatures connected with them, all seemed intricate and unexplainable. But the hand of Infinite Wisdom is seen among the wheels, and perfect order is the result of its work. Every wheel works in perfect harmony with every other. {TM 213.3}

It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. EW 280.

In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. Then I saw Jesus lay off His priestly attire and clothe Himself with His most kingly robes. {EW 280}

I saw that none could share the "refreshing," unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord, and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy, and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence. {CET 113.1}

The angel, the mighty angel from heaven, is to lighten the earth with his glory, while he cries mightily with a loud voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" (Rev. 18:2). Oh, how I wish the church to arise and shine because the glory of the Lord has risen upon her. What can we not do in God if every human agency is doing its very utmost! "Without Me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). We would lose faith and courage in the conflict if we were not sustained by the power of God. Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide-awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. What is this? Grace, Grace. {14MR 286.3}

We are [to] think how heaven regards these events, and to be in harmony with the transactions going on in heaven in preparing a people to stand in this, the day of the Lord, and having done all to stand [Eph. 6:13]. Let the light and power of the sunbeams of righteousness enter into the soul. [Rev. 19:1-6, quoted.] {14MR 288.2}

We need to study the pouring out of the seventh vial. The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. But Providence has a part to act in the battle of Armageddon. When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field. {Mar 257.1}
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/24/11 05:03 AM

Quote:
Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, [that is, that time just before the return of Christ] when the first angel's message should [will] be proclaimed to our world [in the power of the latter rain at the judgment of the living.]

Mark, I don't understand the reason for your additions.
What you are implying is that Daniel is still a sealed book and that it will continue to be sealed until the time of the latter rain. But this is in contradiction with what Ellen White says. The time of the end began in 1798 - this is clear.

As the message of Christ's first advent announced the kingdom of His grace, so the message of His second advent announces the kingdom of His glory. And the second message, like the first, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days were to be understood in the time of the end. At that time, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." "The wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:4, 10. ... We have reached the period foretold in these scriptures. The time of the end is come, the visions of the prophets are unsealed, and their solemn warnings point us to our Lord's coming in glory as near at hand. {DA 235.1}

The prophecies present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the Judgment. This is especially true of the book of Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal “to the time of the end.” Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the Judgment be proclaimed, based on a fulfillment of these prophecies. But at the time of the end, says the prophet, “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” [Daniel 12:4.] {GC 355.3} ... But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the Judgment near. {GC 356.2}

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/25/11 01:39 PM

She does say that the visions of Daniel are unsealed in some places but in others she says there are parts that are still being unsealed. For example this one below and there are others, I think one or two above and others elsewhere.
Quote:
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. [God’s people will gain a clearer understanding of the seven thunders through the study of the book of Daniel.] John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have [will have] their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/25/11 06:26 PM

If we are to study Daniel and Revelation because "it is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end" suggests to me that not all has been revealed or at least known. While we as a church have evangelistic meetings that go over Daniel and Revelation, do we as a church "study" them?
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/25/11 07:50 PM


Only certain parts are reviewed, silence or confusion upon the rest.
Daniel 10, 11, 12. No credible consensus and little new since the pioneer days.

______________
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/25/11 09:12 PM

Quote:
She does say that the visions of Daniel are unsealed in some places but in others she says there are parts that are still being unsealed. For example this one below and there are others, I think one or two above and others elsewhere.
Quote:
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. [God’s people will gain a clearer understanding of the seven thunders through the study of the book of Daniel.] John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have [will have] their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.

Mark,
It's John who hears the seven thunders, not Daniel. And it is said that John sees the little book [the book of Daniel] unsealed. When the little book was unsealed, and the 3AM given, the seven thunders would be understood. This was fulfilled in the events which culminated in 1844. Ellen White doesn't use the future tense - you do.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/25/11 11:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
This was fulfilled in the events which culminated in 1844. Ellen White doesn't use the future tense - you do.

How about, "These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order"? In addition, I believe most anything Ellen White said relate to time after 1844.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 01:52 AM

You're in the majority Rosangela. Most of the church thinks when Ellen White says "These relate to future events which will be disclosed. . . " she is talking about the past! You confirm my point that these plain statements I've posted are as obscure to many of us as the prophecies regarding the first Advent of Christ were obscure to the Jews.

One of the reasons for this state of affairs is that many of us discount statements that don't support our views. I put this little compilation together hoping that some would see the internal consistency in EGWhite's statements; when you put them together rather than taking them in isolation and discounting them, the evidence is overwhelming that she believed and taught that much more of Daniel and Revelation applies now and to the future than what the church allows.

I bring this up because the destiny of the church is at stake. I believe she is correct in stating that a clearer understanding of Daniel and Revelation will be the means of the final revival leading to the latter rain and the return of Christ. If the view of the church on the prophecies contained in these two books was accurate she wouldn't make such an assertion. But as the scripture states, Laodicea believes it knows and understands all of the essential truths contained in the prophecies notwithstanding the testimony of Christ and the prophets to the contrary. We feign humility but refuse to be taught.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 02:38 AM

Mark and kland,
I don't see the double fulfillment of time prophecies as having a basis. If you think that the seven trumpets, in the same way as the plagues, weren't yet fulfilled, and that they probably will have a future fulfillment, this is OK to me. What I don't see as OK is saying that they had a historic fulfillment but will have also a future fulfillment. This is mixing historicism with futurism. Like when it is said that the 1260 days are both 1260 years in the past and 1260 days in the future. This is completely inconsistent. Still worse, it smells like Ford's apotelesmatic principle.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 12:38 PM

Mark, I agree with your realization, and its practical Church implication, here that much more can be learned for an application in our day from the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. In fact my blog deals with many of the SOP quotes you have referred to, also exegetically delving into their elucidating Biblical context. So you may find many of my blog posts pertinently helpful here. (The cited Post Titles/Subjects/Bible|SOP reference should suffice in finding the pertinent posts, if you have any specific reference question let me know.

As a most thematically pertinent starter, I would recommend the “Unrolling of the Scroll” (Rev 5|Dan 10-12|Rev 10-11) post which stemmed from EGW’s ‘Mark of the Beast further understanding’ statement in GCDB, March 2, 1899 par. 3 (cf. 6T 17 (1900)). (You can comment on my blog posts in this discussion forum.)
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
This is mixing historicism with futurism.
Might want to define those terms.

Quote:
Like when it is said that the 1260 days are both 1260 years in the past and 1260 days in the future. This is completely inconsistent. Still worse, it smells like Ford's apotelesmatic principle.

Are there one or two 1260s? I believe there is only one 1290 and 1335. But, could there be two 1260s? If the 1290 relates to the 1260 and the 1290 applies to the future, and we know the 1260 applies to the past, then could it mean there are two 1260s?

And if the 1290 doesn't apply to the future, then what part of Daniel 12 "is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end"?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 06:17 PM

Quote:
This is mixing historicism with futurism.
Quote:

Might want to define those terms.

In the historicist view, there is a figurative interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a year). Thus, these prophecies have a long-range nature. In the futurist view, there is a literal interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a day). Thus, these prophecies have a short-range nature. For historicists, all eschatological time-prophecies have already been fulfilled; for futurists, none of them has been fulfilled yet. It’s obvious that both methods are incompatible and can’t be mixed. You must have a standard to interpret eschatological time periods – either literally or figuratively; it can’t be both.

Quote:
But, could there be two 1260s?

Even if there were two, either both would have to be literal, or both figurative.

Quote:
If the 1290 relates to the 1260 and the 1290 applies to the future

Why would it apply to the future?

Quote:
And if the 1290 doesn't apply to the future, then what part of Daniel 12 "is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end"?

The passage says:

The people of God need to study what characters they must form in order to pass through the test and proving of the last days. Many are living in spiritual weakness and backsliding. They know not what they believe. Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end. There are ministers claiming to believe the truth who are not sanctified through the truth. Unless a change comes in their lives, they will say, "My Lord delayeth His coming." {15MR 228.2}

To me, Ellen White is referring simply to "the test and proving" of character that will occur before/during the time of trouble mentioned in v. 1, 10. The emphasis in the passage is not time periods, but character.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 06:52 PM

Roseangela: I agree in part with your understanding here. Namely that post 1844 there are no longer applicable time elements in any prophecy that may be fulfilled, even spiritually re-fulfilled post 1844 as per the clear SOP statements towards this. However, as just stated, I indeed do not see that this precludes a typological/spiritual re-fulfillment of the prophecy, as it is seen with the three ways of fulfillment in Christ’s Olivet discourse. The book of revelation also has a Literal (Chapter 2&3), Historical (ca. 4-13:10) and Eschatological (13:11-21) [Ch. 22 = post GC] waves of fulfillment, however, as I substantively see it, certain parts in the other waves can have partial/typological/spiritual fulfillment in the current waves when/as the prophetic/development need/reality is.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/26/11 11:30 PM

NJK,

Yes, some prophecies may have a double fulfillment, but not prophecies with a time element, specially if this forces you to use two different systems of interpretation, for these systems of interpretation are mutually exclusive. For instance, Ford defends multiple fulfillments, but for this he had to abandon historicism and opt for preterism.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 01:35 AM

Rosangela,

I actually would not see a problem of having a double fulfillment of a time prophecy with one (i.e., the historical) having a symbolic day for a year time and the eschatological having a literal day understanding. That is because the two fulfillements don’t have to literally be the same. They just come to involve the same Spiritual elements which equally lead to matching applicable fulfillments. The only reason why I do not see this as Biblical, indeed contrary to even some SDA preachers/expositors, are because of the SOP’s many, clear and unequivocal “I was shown” statements opposing this for eschatological prophecies. (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) Clearly God wanted to make this clear. (Interestingly enough a literal time fulfillment would be seen in a local/literal fulfillment wave, however the time elements prophecies in Revelation’s prophecies don’t have such fulfillments, and also no time element was found in Christ’s Olivet discourse which did have this Local/Literal fulfillment.).

However, as expounded upon in this post for the “42 months element” of Rev 11:2, I do see that the fulfillment of a Historical time element in a prophecy, if the prophecy as a whole is eschatologically re-fulfilled, can come to indicate a key aspect of how to expect to see that eschatological fulfillment. (I.e., for Rev 11:2, the “42 months” = Rev 13:5 fulfillment which were historically fulfilled in the time when the Catholic Church having was allowed to have power to act, even over God’s People/Truth. So, as I have shown in that post, the Two Witnesses prophecies has an eschatological fulfillment which parallels, especially thematically the Historical fulfillment, but no symbolic or literal time element is involved. Only a Spiritual indication is provided by that time element for its Eschatological fulfillment.

My Theological understanding, also based upon my understanding of God and the Future for this ‘no calculative/“reckonable” time in Eschatological prophecies is that (a) God now expects his people to live according to the prophetic faith that the Historical time fulfillments have provided and (b) Christ’s coming could, in the Eschatological Wave, occur imminently, i.e., at any moment (as I understand it, based on Rev 8:1 & EW 16 (see Note #1 in here), within half a day), whenever, either the work will be finished or when, in an extreme, possible, emergency, there could be a development where the lives of God’s faithful remnant people is decidedly and capably threatened (however, as God’s Prescient Wisdom “knows”, this is not likely to occur without all predicted Final events which end up in this “Death Decree” to first unravel as “planned”). So any of these time elements would be cut short, or even extended if those final events had not yet be fully unravelled or begun to develop. (I know that Classic Foreknoweldge subscribers see that God has already seen the Future and symbolocially related it, I however see that God has “prognosticated” what is likely to happen and set out the best plan for this to be developed in a GC context, and Eschatologically, where the utter end will come, it will be the natural passions and will of man, especially when “influenced” by the released Four Winds, which will come to self determine this end, and all of this will be a direct counteracting reaction to/against the increasing success of the Church in spreading the Final Gospel message.

The key in the Eschatological Age/Wave of prophecy is acting in Faith to Finish God’s Work and not by “faithlessly/basely seeking a sign” (Matt 16:1-4), in a time to be fulfilled, as many rebellious SDA’s (e.g., David Gates, even Doug Batchelor priorly, to a certain predictive point (see details of both in this blog post) have spuriously tried to claim/do.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
In the historicist view, there is a figurative interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a year). Thus, these prophecies have a long-range nature. In the futurist view, there is a literal interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a day). Thus, these prophecies have a short-range nature. For historicists, all eschatological time-prophecies have already been fulfilled; for futurists, none of them has been fulfilled yet. It’s obvious that both methods are incompatible and can’t be mixed. You must have a standard to interpret eschatological time periods – either literally or figuratively; it can’t be both.
Guess I was mistaken and should have asked you to contrast Preterism with Futurism. I had to look it up and saw there was a difference, though not sure exactly, with historicism. The way I understand it is that papacy was disturbed by how the scriptures (Daniel 7) pointed to them. So they got jesuit Ribera to come up with futurism, which took the 1260 years and said, that's 3.5 years and is way far in the future. At the same time, jesuit Alcazar came up with preterism which took the 1260 years and said, no, no, that's 3.5 years and it's way in the past. That is, anything to say it didn't cover the Protestant's interpretation of Daniel 7.

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But, could there be two 1260s?

Even if there were two, either both would have to be literal, or both figurative.
Would you be saying that once a number is interpreted all occurrences of the number mean the same?

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If the 1290 relates to the 1260 and the 1290 applies to the future

Why would it apply to the future?
How do you conclude it doesn't? It is first listed in chapter 12, so you can't say it's been interpreted to mean the past elsewhere and so has to be the same here.

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And if the 1290 doesn't apply to the future, then what part of Daniel 12 "is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end"?

The passage says:

The people of God need to study what characters they must form in order to pass through the test and proving of the last days. Many are living in spiritual weakness and backsliding. They know not what they believe. Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end. There are ministers claiming to believe the truth who are not sanctified through the truth. Unless a change comes in their lives, they will say, "My Lord delayeth His coming." {15MR 228.2}

To me, Ellen White is referring simply to "the test and proving" of character that will occur before/during the time of trouble mentioned in v. 1, 10. The emphasis in the passage is not time periods, but character.
The time of trouble happens in the future, right?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 05:52 PM

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Guess I was mistaken and should have asked you to contrast Preterism with Futurism.

This is not the problem here. The problem is, it is not possible to be, at the same time, a preterist and a futurist, a preterist and a historicist, or a futurist and a historicist. The systems are incompatible. How can someone believe that the 3.5 years are way in the past and, at the same time, way in the future? This is what Ford tries to do (although not specifically in this case), but, as W. H. Johns says, "the apotelesmatic principle does not give any clue as to when a prophecy may have just one fulfillment, a dual fulfillment, or multiple fulfillments. This is determined arbitrarily and subjectively. It offers no internal or external controls. If one scholar offers seven interpretations for a particular prophecy, and another seventy times seven, who is to say which one has gone too far and which one has stopped short of good exegesis?"
If you try to mix historicism with futurism, which is the case here, you have no consistent pattern to interpret eschatological prophecies. Once you state an escathological prophecy can be interpreted in a day-for-a-day basis, who will believe in a year-for-a-day interpretation? If the 3.5 years of Daniel will be fulfilled by the antichrist in the future, the historicist view is automatically discarded. And, as Johns again points out, "Seventh-day Adventism laid its original foundations and has raised its superstructure upon historicism, which is antithetical to preterism [and, obviously, to futurism]. Without historicism there is no significance to the dates 538, 1755, 1798, 1833, or 1844."
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 08:15 PM

Rosangela: Succinctly said here in response to your latest post above, I can see why you see that two methods of interpretation would be mutually exclusion if you have a strictly linear view of Prophetic Development. However, as seen from Christ Olivet discourse which is actually the template and summary of the Prophetic Book of Revelation, Bible prophecy can have Waves of interpretation (namely: Local/Literal, Historical and Eschatological) and when one wave does not culminate in the utter end that it could have, e.g., Jesus could have returned by 70 A.D. as the NT Church believed if conditions had been met, especially the readiness of the Church, then prophecy is effectively reset and an another “Wave” begins. It is then that Prophecies are refulfilled and now with new actors, , even “descendants” of the prior actors (E.g., Antichrist spirit in the Church in Paul’s time; Institutionalized Papacy in Church History; revived Papal Authority, temporally seconded by the Land Beast in Eschatology). Also since prophecy is to only culminate in one end, and also given the many identifying elements that also need to be accurately fulfilled, it is not realistic that someone would be advancing more than one viably applicable interpretation (i.e., ‘7 or 70X7’) in their Prophetic Wave time.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 08:27 PM

NJK,

I don't believe Jesus could have returned by 70 A.D. This can be seen through Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc. If the NT Church believed that, it was just because the book of Daniel was still sealed at that time.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I don't believe Jesus could have returned by 70 A.D. This can be seen through Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc.


From the wider applicable Biblical Perspective, the Biblical principle on conditional statements, which includes prophecy in Jer 18:1-10 is clear expressing the contrary. It indeed goes both ways. Bible Prophecy is what is uttermost likely to occur, especially given that natural tendencies will most likely be followed (e.g., the rejection of the Messiah and the resulting destruction of the Temple and City Dan 9:26, 27b). Even in the SOP, many of the prophecy that EGW made in relation to her SDA generation did not come to pass as “inclusively” expected, similar to what Paul and the Apostle were similarly, validly led by God’s Spirit to understand, believe and proclaim. EGW makes many statement along these lines of ‘the Second Coming could/should have occurred in her day.)

And by simply allowing the Four Winds to blow on the Earth, (as it will be done in/for the End) which involves allowing man to unhinderedly act according to their “passions”, God can easily cause many key elements of Bible prophecy to unravel. E.g., suddenly, during the Apostles day, make the “bishop” of Rome, having received a vision of Satan, perform mighty miracles before the leader of the World then, Roman Emperor to convince Him to make Christianity the Religion for all peoples and, also by visions of Satan corrupt the teachings of the Church and also seek to kill all those who would oppose this “inspired” move. God indeed ultimately holds the reigns by what He, even interveningly, e.g., does and allows, or what restricts and defeats.

This Biblical topic reveals that God is more interested in wrapping up this GC, whenever it valid/fairly can be and/or needs to be, rather than merely having all of His plans conditioned after the expected developments of human history be fully/literally fulfilled. So the key here is to be Spiritually in tune with the Will of God rather than become prophecy experts. Sadly enough the SDA Church does not understand this which is why they see no problem in ignoring many Gospel Work requirements of Christ (e.g, Matt 25:31-46), including saving the lives of the currently 65,000,000 annually aborted infants, which the SDA Church also electively contributes to (see in this thread), but instead, actually Spiritually futilely, seek to get their prophetic Final Events Charts “correct” along with all the supposedly “applicable” News Headlines. (Matt 16:1-4). Keeping the Sabbath does not supercede or offset doing and condoning/being indifferent to, murder as indeed also implied in Isa 58 which decries just letting someone in need suffer, let alone seeing them to their death.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If the NT Church believed that, it was just because the book of Daniel was still sealed at that time.


A couple of succinct points here as I have discussed this in more details in this blog post:

-The only parts of Daniel that was sealed was the post-1844, eschatological parts. Historical parts leading up to those end time parts were more than less understood which is why Paul in 2 Thess 2:1-12 fully understood the AntiChrist and Great Apostasy prophecy.

-They were sealed because they did not have to be understood priorly and could indeed be optionally fulfilled if World History reached that point.

-The passing of 70 A.D. with indeed few righteous believers to carry on the work in the added time, even fewer understanding or doing what was required to advance God’s work in that new wave resulted in the great crisis of the sealed book related in Rev 5. When it was able to be done, this opened up the Historical Wave of Prophecy for God’s surviving People.

-The end time parts of the book of Daniel would like come to be unsealed when/as a small Remnant group of God’s People would, as precisely stated in Dan 12:4 seek “to and fro” to obtain further Biblical knowledge and insight into God’s will and ways.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/27/11 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
How can someone believe that the 3.5 years are way in the past and, at the same time, way in the future?
Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.

I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames.

It appears you are saying that I'm saying they are the same time frame. I'm saying they are different.


How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/28/11 05:28 PM

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R: I don't believe Jesus could have returned by 70 A.D. This can be seen through Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc.
NJK: From the wider applicable Biblical Perspective, the Biblical principle on conditional statements, which includes prophecy in Jer 18:1-10 is clear expressing the contrary. It indeed goes both ways.

NJK,
Time prophecies are not conditional, nor can they be interpreted as literal time within SDA's prophetic frame.
I'm not following you. Do you think that just 40 years after Christ's death (by 70 A.D.) the Roman Empire could already have been divided into ten kingdoms, and that from among them another religious-political power would have arisen?
Do you think Christ could have been crucified 70 weeks (less than 1.5 years) after "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? Do you think Jerusalem could have been rebuilt in 7 literal weeks? This does not make any sense.
Daniel 8 and 9 are tied together. If both begin at the same point in time, do you think the investigative judgment would have begun a little more than 6 years after the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem?
Or what do you think is that it is possible that none of these prophecies of Daniel would have been fulfilled? If they wouldn't, the whole book of Daniel would have been proved useles. And if there is no certainty that prophecies are going to be fulfilled, the same can happen with Revelation.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/28/11 06:02 PM

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Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames.

Imagine that you are trying to explain the SDA position to an outsider. What would the person think when you said that there is no pattern to interpret an escathological time prophecy - it can be fulfilled once, or twice, or x times, and it can be interpreted using a day for a day, or a year for a day, depending on... what?

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How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.

There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/28/11 07:54 PM


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Time prophecies are not conditional, nor can they be interpreted as literal time within SDA's prophetic phrame.


As the Jer 18:1-10 principle says, I do not see that God is limited anything He says. Prophecies are just a “fashioned (counsels)/plan” (Isa 46:10, 11), and one that is conditioned on circumstances on the ground which are seen to surely be the enduring case. I think the Nineveh repentance episode is a good example of the two aspects involved here. God had said destruction would come in 40 days, seeing that these people would probably not repent, however given them 40 days and a warning, instead just raining down destruction on them left open that possibility and when they did, that time elements was useless, (cf. Jon 4:11) indeed probably from the very first day when they apparently had repented, as also was the predicted destruction. Jonah fully knew and understood from the start that this all may not happen, even if timed. Yet he camp out just outside the city to wait out the time of 40 days.

God rather intends that His word accomplishes the ultimate purpose that He desires when he gave it. (Isa 55:7-11; cf. 1-6 - Repentance and Mercy is His ultimate desire.) Indeed as seen in Nineveh’s case, His ‘timed destruction word’ was not fulfilled when He had the sudden opportunity to have compassion and mercy. (This also shows that his judgement on Pharaoh in which He did not let Pharaoh give in when Pharaoh actually wanted to (see starting in this post), was because God indeed wanted to effectuate all of the ten plagues, right down through the retributive slaying of the Egyptian first born.)

By the way, (references omitted) if you do the chronological math, Israel’s punishment in the wilderness took 38 years and not the decreed 40 years, as it only necessitated 38 years for all these adults to die. Similarly the stated 400 years of Abraham/Israel’s Family took 430 years because Moses act of killing the Egyptian caused it to be delayed by 40 years. (See in this post for more on this latter example [Search for: “430”]).

---

Though I do indeed go by this Biblical ‘not necessary full fulfillment’ as your last observation had seen, I’ll give you a succinct demonstration of how these events, irrespective of time, could have been fulfilled.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I'm not following you. Do you think that just 40 years after Christ's death (by 70 A.D.) the Roman Empire could already have been divided into ten kingdoms, and that from among them another religious-political power would have arisen?


The division did not need to happen, but the “barbaric” tribal peoples that came to cause that division were already in existence and quite antipathetic towards the Romans. They were also militaristically quite capable as Roman History records the most devastating defeat of the history of the Roman Empire, right through their ultimate defeat in ca. 476 A.D. to have occurred in a battle against Germanic tribes during the Time of Tiberius Caesar (ca. 11 A.D.). So the Romans tried not to have unnecessary/wanton conflicts with such “uncivilized” tribal nations. God also could have raised up assisting powers in and around the Roman Empire to make such a rapid transition of the Roman Empire possible (i.e., namely Egypt, Greece, Persia, India, even China if necessary) Rome would not have been able to stand against such simultaneous wars from all sides. And God can and does indeed “stir up” foreign kingdom to accomplish His will, even when His People are not directly involved/implicated (Isa 13:17; cf. Isa 45:1; 46:11a; Dan 2:21). The “omnipotence” of God to even most rapidly accomplish whatever He wants to is absolutely unmatchable whenever he simply chooses to make use of it.

Also in regards to 70 A.D., Jesus never said that the destruction would/should take place in exactly 40 years after his death (which would actually be 71 A.D.) That is just what is commonly assumed. What Jesus said in Mark 13:30 was that the generation of people listening to him then, especially the ones (i.e., the knowledgeable adults) who were rejecting Him (cf. Luke 17:25) would not die before what He had said would be fulfilled. If that “generation” is considered to start from people aged 20, and life expectancy was ca. 70-80 years (Psa 90:10a), then Christ was here seeing ca. 81-91 A.D. as the limits. (Evidently, and most can’t accept this, Jesus also expected a return within that First Century, and it indeed could have happened.) Interestingly enough, the book of Revelation, which opened the way for the Historical Development of Biblical History was not given until ca. 90+ A.D. Perhaps God was awaiting to see if nothing would cause Him to effectuate the Second Coming by then, as expected by Christ, before giving this further and more specific Prophetic Revelation/Plan which came to confirm and complement the ones found in Daniel.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Do you think Christ could have been crucified 70 weeks (less than 1.5 years) after "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"?


In regards to Christ mission, since it was to save the world at the most opportune time, I do not see that it would have been curtailed as that fullness of time could be allowed to naturally come to be. It is however after his completion of this plan of salvation that a “last days” notion, as NT People believed, with an imminent Second Coming end, especially by 70 A.D. could have been done. So I see that the 70 Weeks would chronologically always be fulfilled. Indeed God was supernaturally intervening to physically protect, even restore Israel (Ezek 36:22-38) when necessary so that this could “timely” be done. Indeed to serve as an incontrovertible, concrete sign for Israel then which they completely missed by foundationally being Spiritually out of tune to God’s will and ways. Case in point the Jewish leaders actually knew that this time should be fulfilled in their day, but they just could not see Jesus as the fulfillment of it.

Also Ezekiel’s Temple was to serve as the most typical representation of the Messiah’s work leading up to Christ first coming to become the anti-type, however that Divine plan was never fully, if in any way implemented as Ezekiel was widely rejected by Jewish leaders.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Do you think Jerusalem could have been rebuilt in 7 literal weeks? This does not make any sense.


As I said above the time of the 70 Weeks seems non-curtailable to me for the greater plan of Salvation implementation reason, nonetheless, in my studies for my book on the 70 Weeks, (see its summary here), I do not see a substantive validation that the rebuilding of Jerusalem was being spoken of by the 7 (Prophetic) Weeks statements. That time period was apparently just to delineate the first sabbatical cycle since the restoration, especially as the ignorance of these sabbatical cycles had actually been a major concurrent reason for the 70 years of exile judgement (2 Chr 36:20, 21)

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Daniel 8 and 9 are tied together. If both begin at the same point in time, do you think the investigative judgment would have begun a little more than 6 years after the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem?


The 2300 days “appearance” in Dan 8:14 was actually part of what was sealed in the book of Daniel. Its understanding only became clear much later in the early 1800's. I see that its understanding and chronological fulfillment was all optional as they extended beyond the Cross and beyond 70 A.D.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Or what do you think is that it is possible that none of these prophecies of Daniel would have been fulfilled?


As I said, beyond the completed GC and Redemption work on the Cross, Prophetic and World time became optional. God could have intervene at any time to end things if ever warranted. The permitted persecution of the Christians by Nero could also have been towards this prophetic fulfillment, as it gave a demonstration to the whole universe to what unfair extent Satan and also evil men would take their cause against God’s will and way. However these faithful martyrs did not die in vain when time was prolonged as their “testimony” came to actually increase and sustain the ranks of Believers from the generations living after them.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If they wouldn't, the whole book of Daniel would have been proved useles.


As I showed above much of the Prophecies of Daniel, i.e., the non-sealed “time of the end” parts could easily have been fulfilled. Even the “time of the end” parts would come to be fulfilled, but not in a chronological way. At least not in a ‘day for a year’ way. Notice how more specific and substantively expanded the prophecies of Revelation are compared to Daniel. I.e., there is not mention of Rev 13:11-18's “Land Beast” in the outline of Daniel. Everything ends in Pagan and Papal Rome in Daniel, both of which were in existence, or position to exist, in the First Century A.D. The Land Best (i.e., the United States of America) tangibly would become a likely scenario/case only after a First Century ending would not have become the case.

Incidentally I see Dan 11 as another example in this topic. SDA’s today only can see a historical fulfillement for it with various claimed fulfillements in Egypt, Greece, etc. However, as seen hereI see that they were only possible fulfillement towards a First Century A.D. end. After that past, that prophecy was reset, as it easily could be starting with Christ’s fulfilling actions, along with Paul, in that First Century, ands so on. With each resetting, as seen in other Bible prophecies, some elements of the prophecy do become more Spiritual than literal.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
And if there is no certainty that prophecies are going to be fulfilled, the same can happen with Revelation.


I don’t see this, especially ‘external fears’, as the proper approach to Biblical interpretation/study. It is more of an eisegetical approach. I rather let the text exegetically determine what the Truth is in all regards and align my belief with that revelation of God and His Word. The most ironic thing is that, because people will, giving in to their natural impulses, not step out to do all that they can do to finish God’s work, all of these prophecies will come to pass as timely so expected. I.e., there will be no premature warranted to wrap things up sooner. In fact, it is because of these persisted, followed natural tendencies that I see that an Eschatological Wave for prophetic understanding has come to be necessary, and in this wave many elements in both Daniel and Revelation, as well as many unfulfilled/postponed prophecies concerning Ancient Israel, will come to be fulfilled. The Spiritual casualty in all of this however is that the literal prophesying of EGW will be forced to become like the unfulfilled/postponed prophecies of the OT by now coming to have a more Spiritual application in many ways. Still EGW’s prophecies, in this Spiritual way, like OT prophecies, ‘will still [in some way] speak until the end’.

Hope this all clarifies my “Theological View” here.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/28/11 07:57 PM

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kland: How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.

Rosangela: There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it.


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kland: How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.

Rosangela: There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it.


My short answer here: For the book of Revelation, time elements were always to be symbolic, following the Biblical Principle in e.g., Ezek 4:6 and Num 14:34. However for the “time of the End age” God, through the SOP, not only explicitly removed this symbolic conversion, but the entire time elements themselves even if these prophecy are to be re-fulfilled during that post-1844 time. At best these time elements are only spiritually indicative as to what similar/typical historical development is to be expected, but they have no literal or symbolic chronological contribution/force.

For the book of Daniel the times may have been literal for the prophecies fulfilled in the first century e.g, the 3.5 years.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/28/11 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames.

Imagine that you are trying to explain the SDA position to an outsider. What would the person think when you said that there is no pattern to interpret an escathological time prophecy - it can be fulfilled once, or twice, or x times, and it can be interpreted using a day for a day, or a year for a day, depending on... what?

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How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.

There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it.

I sense we are not communicating. Which could be true, as I've been accused, though I believe incorrectly, of not being "straight forward and as clear as possible". So with that in mind, maybe I haven't been emphasizing what I need to:
Two


Taking another approach. What if the numbers used in Daniel 12 were 1040, 1492, 872? If reading it, would you immediately assume it was referring to a time of the distant past?

Put another way, is the reason that you think it points to the distant past is because one, and only one, of the three numbers mentioned just happens to be the same as another number used somewhere else?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/29/11 04:11 PM

NJK,

Your view about prophecies is a corolary of your view about the omniscience of God - the open view. God cannot know beforehand exactly how things will play out, so prophecies may or may not be fulfilled.

I consider there are two kinds of prophecies in the Bible:

1) Conditional "prophecies" - they are not revelations of the future, but promises/threats that may or may not be fulfilled according to the behavior of the people involved (in purposes of mercy, as you pointed out).

2) Unconditional prophecies - they are revelations of the future and don't depend on the human factors for their fulfillment (these are already taken into account beforehand). These are mainly the prophecies involving the plan of salvation - the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ.

Conditional prophecies are directed to a particular group of people (individual people or a nation). This is clear in Jer. 18: "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it" (v. 7).

Apocaliptic prophecies, however, involve a vast segment of humanity or the whole of it, and are not conditional, but are a description of the future according to God's foreknowledge. Thus, Daniel's prophecies involve the four world empires and what would come after them, and Revelation's prophecies involve a major political-religious power which "all the world ... followed" (Rev. 13:3).

You said the prophecies related to the 1st coming of Christ are not conditional, but the same is true about the prophecies related to His second coming.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/29/11 04:58 PM

Quote:
Taking another approach. What if the numbers used in Daniel 12 were 1040, 1492, 872? If reading it, would you immediately assume it was referring to a time of the distant past?

Put another way, is the reason that you think it points to the distant past is because one, and only one, of the three numbers mentioned just happens to be the same as another number used somewhere else?

Let's see if I understood.
A fundamental aspect of the Historicist method of prophetic interpretation is the day/year principle. This principle is applied to eschatological prophecies in Daniel and Revelation (it is important to note that this refers to prophecies whose scope is within human history on this earth, so the millennium is excluded).
So it doesn't matter which numbers are used, there must be a consistent pattern. For the Historicist view, the pattern is a day for a year - always; for the Preterist and Futurist views, it is a day for a day - always. If you apply a mixed pattern, you are trying to use an ecletic approach which does not have a consistent basis.
So, if the numbers used in Daniel 12 were 1040, 1492, 872, I'd try to find a historical fulfillment for the events involved - which would have taken 1040 years, 1492 years, 872 years.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/29/11 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Your view about prophecies is a corolary of your view about the omniscience of God - the open view. God cannot know beforehand exactly how things will play out, so prophecies may or may not be fulfilled.


As I have found my understanding of God and the Future to be Biblical, I have seen that the conditional aspect of prophecy to perfectly compliment it. Indeed it very well resolved many, even major, issues that Classical Foreknowledge subscribers, who believe that the future is known exactly, and that from Eternity, just have no satisfactory explanation for and/or just deliberately overlook. Perhaps you have a better answer for this. That is, if you believe as it can be easily seen, e.g., in Christ’s Olivet discourse, that pointedly these statements had fulfillments around 70 A.D., then how do you explain that not all elements, most of which were quite linear, were not fulfilled then?

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I consider there are two kinds of prophecies in the Bible:

1) Conditional "prophecies" - they are not revelations of the future, but promises/threats that may or may not be fulfilled according to the behavior of the people involved (in purposes of mercy, as you pointed out).

2) Unconditional prophecies - they are revelations of the future and don't depend on the human factors for their fulfillment (these are already taken into account beforehand). These are mainly the prophecies involving the plan of salvation - the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ.


I consider all prophecies to be conditional, some in a more Theologically implicit sense/indication then others. That also includes prophecies in regards to the Second Coming Case in point, how, in terms of “Apocalyptic” prophecies, which you don’t see as conditional, how do you explain the many EGW revelations in which she was given an inclusive view involving her and her generation of SDA about Final Events and the Second Coming, which did not come to pass as revealed?

[It has been such ‘indifferent silence’ in especially SDA circles for such “elephant in the room’ Spiritual/Theological/Prophetic/Biblical issues that has led me on my journey of deeper Scholarly Biblical studies and I have continued to be surprised by how conclusively these issues are resolved through simply that more thorough effort, something that SDA Scholars could and should have done, and that a long time ago.]

By the way, I see God’s prophecies as an optional guide for the faithful, “optional” in that it serves to confirm righteous behavior. Indeed most prophecies were only discovered after the fact, i.e., after people had chosen to do the right thing in regards to God’s will. Whne this initial step is done, and it is discovered that all along they had been fulfilling prophecies, then other not yet fulfilled prophecies, even remaining parts of those initial prophecies, are understood and now serve as a guide. (I have experienced this process with my understanding of the Eschatological Wave of the prophecies of the Bible, including prophecies for OT Israel, all stemming from the resolute endeavor to seek to fully do, as it is actually quit feasible, what Christ actually, fully expects from His Gospel commission (e.g,. Matt 25:31-46)).

What you consider to be “unconditional” prophecies depend on human behavior. That is explicitly copiously seen in the prophetic ministry of EGW in e.g., comments like:

Originally Posted By: SOP COL 69.1
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Conditional prophecies are directed to a particular group of people (individual people or a nation). This is clear in Jer. 18: "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it" (v. 7).

Apocaliptic prophecies, however, involve a vast segment of humanity or the whole of it, and are not conditional, but are a description of the future according to God's foreknowledge.


I don’t see a specific nation/people vs. many nations/peoples, the whole world as being the determinative, or even inherent, parameter that differentiate “conditional vs. unconditional” prophecies. Specific prophecies are just smaller elements in the larger general prophecy which makes that larger general prophecy to be fulfillable. So if these smaller specific prophecies are more explicitly stated/revealed as conditional, then the larger and general prophecy that they contribute towards its fulfillment is inevitably, dependently conditional. E.g., had Israel not done anything at all to warrant God fulfilling any of His promises towards them, which indeed would require Divine favor and assistance to come to pass, given the very real and present physical odds that Israel had to overcome, then the larger prophecies of e.g., the First Coming of Christ would not have been fulfilled. That is indeed why God at the utter low point of the Babylonian Captivity had to act despite not really having a worthy people who were worthy of any further blessings and favor. (Ezek 36:22-38) It was really only the intercessory work of Ezekiel, God’s obedient “Son of Man” that made the Restoration and continued unfolding of the plan of Salvation possible.

Again here, you have to explain especially the delayed Second Coming for first the generation of SDA, as God had explicitly led them to fully believe. Indeed EGW never had in mind ‘160+ years in the future’. Indeed as she awarely, said in regards to a manifest, even evident, effectuated delay:

Originally Posted By: SOP GC 458.1
It was not the will of God that Israel should wander forty years in the wilderness; He desired to lead them directly to the land of Canaan and establish them there, a holy, happy people. But "they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:19. Because of their backsliding and apostasy they perished in the desert, and others were raised up to enter the Promised Land. In like manner, it was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be so long delayed and His people should remain so many years in this world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated them from God. As they refused to do the work which He had appointed them, others were raised up to proclaim the message. In mercy to the world, Jesus delays His coming, that sinners may have an opportunity to hear the warning and find in Him a shelter before the wrath of God shall be poured out.


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Thus, Daniel's prophecies involve the four world empires and what would come after them, and Revelation's prophecies involve a major political-religious power which "all the world ... followed" (Rev. 13:3).


Technically, the 4 empires in Daniel only are those that would involve/affect Israel. They had great sway in the world, however there were many nations, peoples and kingdoms that were not under their rule. They were only the equivalent of our “Western World” today.

By the way, my studies have shown that the prophecy of Dan 2 which SDA like to hold up as the ‘“prime” proof that God knows the Future’ is actually the perfect demonstration of how God plans the future and then, by assisting power, when needed, bring out that Wise plan when the time for it has come. All of the 4 major empires then, (as well as the “10" unnamed barbaric tribes and peoples) were in some form of formal and nationally organized existence by its ca. 604 B.C. year (Dan 1:1 & 2:1). So it was all like God looking at a world map today and declaring that, e.g., The Current USA will continue to be the World’s lone Superpower for a little while more, then a coalition between the United Kingdom and Canada, then Russia and then China, but then China’s power will be taken away by an uprising of now more powerful and developed African countries.

God’s selection of these four world empires to rule the world in which Israel was to function and advance in was indeed pointedly in relation to the success He aimed for the Gospel to have. Babylon was used to punish Israel, though less thoroughly than Assyria would have, as seen with what they had done to the 10 northern tribes, Medo-Persia’s religous tolerance was key to a full restoration of Israel, Greece advance knowledge and education was key to the Gospel proclamation as seen in the place that e.g., the Greek language had, as did their democratic principles). The Roman’s Law and Order ways was key to ensure that no unjust/lawless act towards the Messiah, the NT Church and even the unbelieving Jewish nation would be done. Whenever these had “outlived” the Gospel usefulness, God moved to have then replaced by his next choice. Then this form of centralized world governance was to be broken up ultimately providing at some point some protections for the advanced of the Christian Church, particularly from the time of the Reformation and the Remnant, indeed as culminatingly seen in the establishment of the USA.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
You said the prophecies related to the 1st coming of Christ are not conditional, but the same is true about the prophecies related to His second coming.


I actually more precisely see that it was the Plan of Salvation that was the most likely to occur, by it actually being dependent on the faithfulness of Jesus. Yet it took much restraint on His part for it to be done (Luke 12:49, 50). Indeed God would work to protect the life of Christ until all was fulfilled, and that exactly according to the Plan of e.g., the Seventy Weeks. Again given as a guiding sign for righteous and faithful people who would come to obey Christ’s righteous Gospel mandate.

On the other hand, as I said above, the Second Coming is dependent on how faithful the Church is in finishing the work. That is why no time element is to be attached to its fulfillement as it will occur whenever the work is done. Indeed even “Final Events” will not begin to unflinchingly unravel until God supernaturally acts to allow the Four Winds to blow upon the Earth. That God will one day wrap things up by Christ appearance is the non-changing ultimate plan, however there is nothing written in stone as to when, or in which generation of “Believers” it will occur. That is all dependent on when the require Gospel Work is actually completed, and that, inherently, as it thoroughly should be.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/29/11 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Taking another approach. What if the numbers used in Daniel 12 were 1040, 1492, 872? If reading it, would you immediately assume it was referring to a time of the distant past?

Put another way, is the reason that you think it points to the distant past is because one, and only one, of the three numbers mentioned just happens to be the same as another number used somewhere else?

Let's see if I understood.
A fundamental aspect of the Historicist method of prophetic interpretation is the day/year principle. This principle is applied to eschatological prophecies in Daniel and Revelation (it is important to note that this refers to prophecies whose scope is within human history on this earth, so the millennium is excluded).
So it doesn't matter which numbers are used, there must be a consistent pattern. For the Historicist view, the pattern is a day for a year - always; for the Preterist and Futurist views, it is a day for a day - always. If you apply a mixed pattern, you are trying to use an ecletic approach which does not have a consistent basis.
So, if the numbers used in Daniel 12 were 1040, 1492, 872, I'd try to find a historical fulfillment for the events involved - which would have taken 1040 years, 1492 years, 872 years.

I seem to still be having problems.

I asked, "Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames."

How does your response about day-years address this?

Something that happens on this earth before the millennium doesn't necessarily have to be in our past does it?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/30/11 01:14 AM

Quote:
That is, if you believe as it can be easily seen, e.g., in Christ’s Olivet discourse, that pointedly these statements had fulfillments around 70 A.D., then how do you explain that not all elements, most of which were quite linear, were not fulfilled then?

These aspects were already covered in the thread How can a person know if a prophecy is conditional or unconditional?
Christ didn’t tell the disciples clearly that He wouldn’t come at the destruction of Jerusalem because they wouldn't have endured this revelation at that time. So He mingled the description of the destruction of Jerusalem with the description of His coming.

"Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of people; but when He was alone, Peter, John, James, and Andrew came to Him as He sat upon the Mount of Olives. 'Tell us,' they said, 'when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?' Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them [notice that He already knew the future events], they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history" (DA 627).

Quote:
Case in point, how, in terms of “Apocalyptic” prophecies, which you don’t see as conditional, how do you explain the many EGW revelations in which she was given an inclusive view involving her and her generation of SDA about Final Events and the Second Coming, which did not come to pass as revealed?

By “apocalyptic prophecies” I mean those of the Bible – the great prophetic framework which delineates the history of the world so far as it is intertwined with the history of His people.
So, on the basis of an unconditional prophecy – that of Christ’s coming – EGW made a conditional prophecy – that Christ would come in her days.
It should be remembered that the prophecy of Christ’s coming doesn’t have a time element attached to it – so, after the fulfillment of the 2300-day prophecy, its fulfillment could occur at any time.

Quote:
What you consider to be “unconditional” prophecies depend on human behavior. That is explicitly copiously seen in the prophetic ministry of EGW in e.g., comments like:
COL 69.1
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.

The fulfillment of all prophecies depends on the human response. But, as I said in my previous post, unconditional prophecies don't depend on human factors for their fulfillment in the sense that these are already taken into account beforehand.
For instance (this was discussed in the thread mentioned), although men can hasten or delay Christ's coming by their behavior, God already knows the day and the hour of Christ's coming (Mark 13:32).
If the members of the church had chosen to dedicate themselves entirely to God, Christ could have come earlier. Today, if the majority of the members choose to dedicate themselves entirely to God, the church may be ready in a few months. But suppose the majority of the members don’t make this decision; then the church will be ready only in 10 years. It could be 5 years, or 25 years, or 100 years – this depends on several factors and is related to the free will of the members. But God knows when the church will finally be ready, and He fixed the date (which only He knows) having this human response in view.

Quote:
So if these smaller specific prophecies are more explicitly stated/revealed as conditional, then the larger and general prophecy that they contribute towards its fulfillment is inevitably, dependently conditional.

No, per the reasons discussed above (that is, the main prophecy is not dependent of the smaller prophecies; it's the other way around).

Quote:
God’s selection of these four world empires to rule the world in which Israel was to function and advance in was indeed pointedly in relation to the success He aimed for the Gospel to have.

No, you invert things. God didn’t choose these world empires to rule the world. He knew beforehand they would arise, worked with them through His people, and dealt with them according to their response and for the good of His people.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/30/11 01:23 AM

Quote:
I seem to still be having problems.

I asked, "Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames."

How does your response about day-years address this?

kland,
Let's go by parts.
This is how I'm interpreting your question:

Why can't 1260 be interpreted in a passage as 1260 years and in another one as 1260 days?

Is this what you asked?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 04/30/11 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
These aspects were already covered in the thread How can a person know if a prophecy is conditional or unconditional?


I started reading through that thread, however I don’t have the time to go through its 103 pages. If and/or since you are familiar with it, I think you can present the best arguments from it against the Biblical View I have on this issue, from my God and the Future View as summarized on my blog’s post. That is, summarily, that God plans/“fashions” the future, I.e., how He sees that it should occur to triumphantly resolve this GC, and then when the time comes He summons/elects/employs/entrusts whatever participant He needs, mostly from People faithful to Him, in order to accomplish what He had said, even long ago, what would occur, indeed as it should if the goal indeed is that Truth will normatively triumph over evil. (Cf. Isa 46:9-11). Of course you don’t have this view so I indeed can only expect that you will respond to issues here as you believe it to be true. I also do the same. (This issue of “God and the Future” is discussed in this active thread, though the sub-issue of freewill is currently on the “front burner”).

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Christ didn’t tell the disciples clearly that He wouldn’t come at the destruction of Jerusalem because they wouldn't have endured this revelation at that time. So He mingled the description of the destruction of Jerusalem with the description of His coming.

Originally Posted By: SOP
"Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of people; but when He was alone, Peter, John, James, and Andrew came to Him as He sat upon the Mount of Olives. 'Tell us,' they said, 'when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?' Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them [notice that He already knew the future events], they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history" (DA 627).


Given the paramount Biblical evidence towards my Foreplanning View, and knowing that EGW believed in the Classical Foreknowledge view, despite evidence to the contrary from her visions, including the “Plan of Salvation” one discussed in this thread which you started, I give the Biblical testimony, and those EGW direct revelations preeminence over what may simply be EGW’s adherence to the Classical Foreknowledge View. Indeed, as a case in point, when EGW did not think that oysters were unclean, even ca. 20 years after her health reform vision, she had no qualm about “endorsing” the eating of it, and that moreover, even with it being meat. She indeed took time fully understand the “present truth” of Health Reform for these last days.

Priorly I would have questioned if this was a statement of commission by EGW or one of permission, however I now do see how Christ indeed did this, but not for a 70 A.D. vs. 2011+ A.D. distinction between the Jerusalem destruction and His Return, but actually, for the reasons I had stated in this above post, but a 70 A.D. destruction of the Jewish nation followed by ca. 11-21 years during which events leading up to Christ’s return within that first century could have been allowed, and aided to, unravel by God. However, as I believe upon evidence in the Bible and SOP, the Church proved to not be ready for this to come to pass and thus, the Second Coming part of that Prophetic Discourse was postponed, and a Historical Age, involving now this New Israel was allowed to unfold. It is now wonder that many elements found in Ancient Israel’s History were made to be involved in this New Israel. E.g., as Reformers understood, “(Spiritual) Babylon” among many others.

Christ conscientious mingling action is all typologically similar to how when God judge the Universal Christian Church in 1798 and raised up a Remnant, He allowed believers to believe the Second Coming would occur soon after that, i.e., 1843/44 (cf. 1335 days), as it actually could have. That indeed follows the Spiritually-aiding principle of Christ in His Olivet discourse.

As you had said later, (which I however see applies, in terms of the associated time element, only in the Historical Wave of Prophecy):

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
It should be remembered that the prophecy of Christ’s coming doesn’t have a time element attached to it – so, after the fulfillment of the 2300-day prophecy, its fulfillment could occur at any time.


Quote:
NJK: Case in point, how, in terms of “Apocalyptic” prophecies, which you don’t see as conditional, how do you explain the many EGW revelations in which she was given an inclusive view involving her and her generation of SDA about Final Events and the Second Coming, which did not come to pass as revealed?

Rosangela: By “apocalyptic prophecies” I mean those of the Bible – the great prophetic framework which delineates the history of the world so far as it is intertwined with the history of His people.
So, on the basis of an unconditional prophecy – that of Christ’s coming – EGW made a conditional prophecy – that Christ would come in her days.


I still don’t see a validation for conditional vs. unconditional prophecy here. As I read EGW writings on the prophecies, she does not say, indeed if ever, e.g., ‘I saw (that if we were faithful, then) We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns,’ (EW 16.2). Indeed unlike John with the prophecies of Revelation, she and those from her generation were defaulty always depicted as the people in whom these events would be fully fulfilled. John was an outside observer to these similar revelations, and only was a spiritual present one to “visit” certain aspects of Heaven, as was EGW, but he was not shown to be a participant in, e.g., the The Loud Cry, The Sealing, The Time of Trouble, The Second Coming, etc. EGW was. That is all because John had to, in that newly unfolded “Historical Wave”, wait for now all time prophecies to first be fulfilled as the (Church) History for God New Israel unfolded, EGW and her generation did not have that time limitation, and the Second Coming could occur whenever they Finished the Gospel Work.

I view EGW’s prophecies, i.e., those from direct revelations to be identical in nature and theme to those of the Bible, and so I do not make a distinction here, indeed seeing them as what you consider “Apocalyptic prophecies.” Indeed just like the Book of Revelation expanded for the NT Church, particularly in details, the prior prophecies of Daniel, the prophecies given to EGW did the exact same thing for the prophecies of Revelation, and not only in explanatory details, but also in adding new dimensions that help us to better understand the book of Revelation. E.g., see the “cross-sectional” dimension mentioned in this post from EGW’s Shaking vision.

Quote:
NJK: What you consider to be “unconditional” prophecies depend on human behavior. That is explicitly copiously seen in the prophetic ministry of EGW in e.g., comments like:
Originally Posted By: SOP COL 69.1

Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.


Rosangela: The fulfillment of all prophecies depends on the human response. But, as I said in my previous post, unconditional prophecies don't depend on human factors for their fulfillment in the sense that these are already taken into account beforehand.


I rather see these more precisely as certain (but not “unconditional” events. I.e., these must occur. And not surprisingly, I think we can agree that only the Plan of Salvation and the Second Coming fall into this category. As I explained before, with Jesus being responsible for the Plan of Salvation it was more than less a sure thing, though as I understand it from EW 149-153, not a given. In regards to the Second Coming, from the time that the first pardoned and righteous person died, the promise to raise them up when this GC ends and take them to Heaven, at least for a while, which is what the Second Coming is all about, was by this necessity, set in stone as an event that certainly will take place sometime in the future. Even if in the end no righteous persons are on the Earth (cf. Luke 18:8 i.e., ‘will there be enough faith on the Earth for Christ to make a swift end in Justice), then Christ will then wait until evil has done its inevitable work of total death, and come to raise up the righteous dead.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
For instance (this was discussed in the thread mentioned), although men can hasten or delay Christ's coming by their behavior, God already knows the day and the hour of Christ's coming (Mark 13:32).


I had seen that discussion early in that thread, from Tom’s comments, and though I did not see how/if it was further discussed later in the thread, I believe that God’s knowledge here is “qualitatively” vs. “quantitatively”. I.e., God knows what He is looking for in order to order that the Second Coming takes place vs. an actual time. I rather see that the expression “day and the hour” (Matt 24:36) is hierarchally, thematically synonymous/parallel to “times and epochs/seasons” (Acts 1:6, 7). And when the ‘times and epochs/seasons’ aspect will first be met (Gospel Work being actually Finished, then, God will allow Final Events to irreversibly begin to unravel, (i.e., with His releasing of the Four Winds), which will then be followed by His setting of a specific ‘day and hour’, even perhaps only in that final month, even week. This is not because He cannot do so long before that, indeed He can set any date He wants. However He allows this date to be determined by actual developments on Earth, and with the open possibility of a change of curse due to man’s freewill, hence the utterly “uncertain” (Greek imperative mood), thus greatly exhortational statement in Rev 22:11, which the SOP sees as being said just before the Final Great Time of Trouble (GC 613.2), for especially the righteous to remain faithful, indeed with Satan now acting with all His allowed power to spoil this.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If the members of the church had chosen to dedicate themselves entirely to God, Christ could have come earlier. Today, if the majority of the members choose to dedicate themselves entirely to God, the church may be ready in a few months. But suppose the majority of the members don’t make this decision; then the church will be ready only in 10 years. It could be 5 years, or 25 years, or 100 years – this depends on several factors and is related to the free will of the members. But God knows when the church will finally be ready, and He fixed the date (which only He knows) having this human response in view.


I agree with your understanding of the Church’s responsibility here, but this is an example of where I see that the Classical Foreknowledge view becomes incongruous, but that is really a topic for another thread. I don’t see that God know with certainty the future freewill choice of men. As seen with e.g., Abraham, God has to test man to make such an ascertainment (Gen 22:12; cf. Deut 8:2; cf. Exod 15:25; 16:4; 2 Chr 32:31). Again, on this issue, I let the Bible determine what the Truth is. This is all how I best harmonize the two seemingly opposing points of ‘not knowing what man will do’ and ‘knowing the “day and the hour”’. Indeed as I see it, it is only after God has seen a generation pass the test by Finishing the work during the Little Time of Trouble, that He will then know for certain that this is the Faithful generation upon which He can wrap up this GC and thus then set a specific day and hour, even later reveal this to this group, just before He returns.

Quote:
NJK: So if these smaller specific prophecies are more explicitly stated/revealed as conditional, then the larger and general prophecy that they contribute towards its fulfillment is inevitably, dependently conditional.

Rosangela: No, per the reasons discussed above (that is, the main prophecy is not dependent of the smaller prophecies; it's the other way around).


I see this as inevitable in terms of dependence and particularly in terms of timeliness. The sum is not greater than its parts. E.g., Ancient Israel failed in having many conditions of obedience to the law to be met for many promises to be fulfilled, that thus resulted in several prophecies to be postponed, if not fail, in terms of the literal fulfillment that they should have had. That in turn, delayed the Second Coming, as I see it first around 70-90 A.D. The same thing was repeated later with a possible ca. 1844 Second Coming and then a later one around 1888. Again the event of the Second Coming is a given. But timing is incontrovertibly dependent upon lessor prophecies and responses to Divine requirements. To say that it is the other way around, if I understand you correctly here, is to say that the Second will occur even if those conditions and smaller prophecies are not met. I think that is easily refuted by the known delays of the Second Coming in EGW’s time. As I said above, the only way I see that the Second Coming will irrespectively occur, is in a utter evil outplaying scenario where/when, there at least, is no righteous person left on earth and thus no one left for God to be able to work to save the remaining wicked. Then only judgement can only occur and the sooner the better.

Quote:
NJK God’s selection of these four world empires to rule the world in which Israel was to function and advance in was indeed pointedly in relation to the success He aimed for the Gospel to have.

Rosangela: No, you invert things. God didn’t choose these world empires to rule the world. He knew beforehand they would arise, worked with them through His people, and dealt with them according to their response and for the good of His people.


It is solely according to your Classical Foreknowledge view that you believe I have inverted things here. I don’t see that view as Biblical and what I have expressed here is indeed what is viewed by what I understand to be the Biblical Foreplanning View. This “selecting of existing Kingdoms’ is perfect harmony with the “summoning & calling” notion in Isa 46:11 (cf. Dan 2:21) so that His counsel, plans and will can be accomplished as planned. I indeed see that God elected and sustained the best world kingdom available then to rule the world where, and so that, Israel would prosper. That is the understanding that best harmonizes with the Bible’s Foreplanning view that I ascribe to. Interestingly enough, all of the godly elements that were found in those first four world powers were already present in the National and Religious Economy of Israel. So God, with His People not having made themselves ready/worthy as they could and should have found in these nations, (if He actually did not suggestively implant it Himself), the Divine traits that He could use to fill the position that Israel itself should have had and been in.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/01/11 12:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mark and kland,
I don't see the double fulfillment of time prophecies as having a basis. If you think that the seven trumpets, in the same way as the plagues, weren't yet fulfilled, and that they probably will have a future fulfillment, this is OK to me. What I don't see as OK is saying that they had a historic fulfillment but will have also a future fulfillment. . .


Didn't Christ and the prophets speak mainly for the benefit of this generation, the final one? Christ combined two periods when He unfolded earth’s final events in Matthew 24 – the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of human history. But you say, ‘that’s different’. OK.

What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela? “He who has ears to hear, let him/her hear.”

By definition, futurism is inconsistent with historicism, but these are human labels and human terms. We need divine principles of study. The ones recommended by Ellen White were used by ‘Father Miller’. The one I’m thinking of from his recommended principles that applies here is that a prophecy is not completely fulfilled until all of it’s particulars have been met.

NJK, I wouldn’t paint myself in a corner by saying there are no future time elements. Ellen White’s statements you referenced on this aren’t as sweeping as that. For example, saying that the people will not have another time-based message is not the same as saying there are no future time prophecies period.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/01/11 03:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark
NJK, I wouldn’t paint myself in a corner by saying there are no future time elements. Ellen White’s statements you referenced on this aren’t as sweeping as that. For example, saying that the people will not have another time-based message is not the same as saying there are no future time prophecies period.


Given that EGW statements on this are both, from: “I was shown” revelation, and, to me, quite clear in their pointed meaning: e.g.,:

Originally Posted By: SOP 2SM 73.3
I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844; and that I knew that this message, which four or five were engaged in advocating with great zeal, was heresy.


I really cannot see where you are finding any Biblical support for your belief. And I don’t mind at all being “painted” in that solid Biblical corner. Moreoverly, it save one from much false time setting embarrassments and detrimental false messages. God’s Second Coming after the fulfillment of the longest time prophecy in 1844, is more than ever imminent, i.e., whenever it may be “necessary” (against a sudden, all out, deadly assault against the Remnant People) and/or possible “with an actual Finishing of the Work”.

As I said, I see, and that attestedly, the contributions of these time elements in the present Eschatological Wave of Bible Prophecies as being Spiritually indicative of what type of development to expect (i.e., to the Historical fulfillment when a present time element had been chronologically fulfilled. In prophecy especially, history does repeat itself in the Eschatological phase, however involving descendant and/or different forms of the previous actors.)
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/02/11 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I seem to still be having problems.

I asked, "Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames."

How does your response about day-years address this?

kland,
Let's go by parts.
This is how I'm interpreting your question:

Why can't 1260 be interpreted in a passage as 1260 years and in another one as 1260 days?

Is this what you asked?
No.

That may be a question I'll ask, but what I am asking now is, can the 1260 be two different time frames. By frames, I intend it to mean times, periods, eras. That is, can one occurrence of a number (which happens to be the same number as somewhere else) be for one time period, and can another number (which happens to be the same number) used elsewhere be for another time period. Can one occurrence of the number be used for the past, and another occurrence of the number be used for the future? I'm running out of permutations of asking the same thing. The reason I asked, what if the number in Daniel 12 was different than 1260, is because I think you are seeing that they just happen to be the same number and therefore must refer to the same time period of the past. If the numbers were different, would you then consider they may refer to different time periods.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 05:01 AM

kland,
Well, I consider that all the occurrences of the 1260 days and similar expressions (3.5 times, 42 months) refer to the same time period.
Of course different numbers would refer to different time periods, although this doesn't mean there can't be some overlapping between them.
But if I believed that the 1260 days of Dan. 12 had not yet met their fulfillment, I would still believe that it would refer to 1260 years (in this case, in the future). IOW, supposing the 3.5 times of Dan. 12 were different from the 3.5 times of Dan. 7, if the 3.5 times of Dan. 7 were interpreted as 1260 years, the same would apply to the 3.5 times of Dan. 12 - that is, you must have a consistent pattern of interpretation, even if one of the periods is past and the other one is future. This is what I was trying to point out.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 05:15 AM

Quote:
What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela?

Mark,
I'm not sure EGW believed Miller's and Smith's view of the trumpets was correct, or that she endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch about the 6th trumpet (which seems to include a mistake). Neither am I certain that she makes a future application of the trumpets. In fact, I have no definite position about the trumpets. What I don't believe is correct is to consider that a prophecy has a double fulfillment with two different patterns of interpretation - one figurative and the other literal. Either both would have to be figurative, or both literal.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick


Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}



So interesting that SDA's generally accept it as a fact that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 and the servant of the Lord states that we must understand Daniel 12 "before the time of the end" and that very chapter has a portion relating to prophetic time that is applicable to the time of the end.

We short ourselves so many blessings because we don't study and thus we don't understand.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness.... {Mar 199.3}


It states in the intro [MAR]"REFERENCES DIRECTING THE READER TO THE ORIGINAL SOURCES APPEAR AT THE CLOSE OF THE VOLUME. THE SCRIPTURE INDEX INCLUDES ONLY THE VERSE CHOSEN WITH EACH READING."

On my CD the references are not at the close of the volume. This compilation does not reflect an accurate presentation of the sequencing of endtime events. As a compilation, it reflects the opinions of the compilers
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
If we are to study Daniel and Revelation because "it is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end" suggests to me that not all has been revealed or at least known. While we as a church have evangelistic meetings that go over Daniel and Revelation, do we as a church "study" them?


I took the counsel literally. Instead of studying the programmed studies that our church relies on, I studied Daniel verse by verse.

A huge book resulted (Defying Destiny 2001). Then I compared that study of the Bible to the Spirit of Prophecy in a second book (Daniel's Apocalyptic Code Revealed [400-pages]). Then I revised it [DACR] to omit redundancy of Spirit of prophecy quotations and I dumbed it down for those who were just not up to date on Daniel, Revelation and current events (Put-Out the Light). But I never could interest our Church publishers in even reviewing the material.

They said that they had plenty of material on this topic. I protested that it was all a rehash of older material and not up to date. Case closed.

Since then I wrote The Last Church Meets the Obama-Nation, which is not a verse by verse study but a short overview of endtime events as found in Daniel and Revelation. And the Lord has led me to an SDA church member that has taken the time to read it and compare it to Daniel and Revelation. He is so impressed that he is buying and distributing them to his friends and family. And the Lord is upon their hearts.

27 April 2011 I published Echoes of Doomsday. The story behind that book is fascinating. Short version. As a struggling author, I lost my house to the bank. Dec 2010 I was compelled to move. I had no money. God allowed me to find a buyer for the house, arrange for the sale, and keep a fee for transacting the transfer.

Echoes of Doomsday explains the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel and gives the date that the Abomination of Desolation was set up, by whom, and what happened on day 1335. Things that everyone who is up to date on Bible prophecy should know, but that SDA's are woefully ignorant of. It also looks at earth, fire, wind, and water (earthquakes, wildfires, tornadoes, and floods) how active they were in America before the Abomination of Desolation was set up and after. The increase is phenomenal.

The very day that book was published - a few hours after publication a massive tornado tore the roof off the house that I had been compelled to move from. It was sitting empty. I was miles away and in no danger. Within 5 days the owner had a temporary roof on it - just in time for yesterday's rain.

I gave this material to my pastor a few weeks before I moved. He brushed me off. I followed up and I stressed how important it was for us to know this information and to give the trumpet the right sound at the right time. I told him it was a salvation issue. If I am believing and teaching a lie, my salvation is at stake. And if it is present truth, and he hides from the light that God is giving him for this hour, he will fail to give the warning that is needed NOW. He put me off again. 27 April at about 6 PM my pastor's house that was a few thousand feet from the one God moved me out of was demolished by the tornado. From the road it looks like it weathered the storm, but he tells me that the structure was so damaged that he will have to have it torn down.

There is an elderly Christian couple whose house is next door to my old house. She read the material and told me that she did not understand everything I had shared, but thanked God that people were searching for light to see us through to the kingdom. After the storm, her house was an oasis. Perfectly manicured lawn, nothing out of place. They had a few shingles blown off, but God preserved their home intact.

God only knows why He moved me away before the storm. And why the pastor's house was totaled. And why this couple had no damage (their daughter's house was completely wiped off its concrete slab -damaged worst of any) God knows. But I would not assume that the events of 27 April did not reflect God's will. Not a life was lost in that neighborhood, but some people were awakened to the fact that the end of all things can come when it is least expected.

Ignorance is not humility, it is stupidity. Satan would have us blinded to what we need to know until it is too late for the information to do us any good. As it was in the days of Noe, it is working that way today. The attitude that has engulfed the Church is "I'll wait and see." And as it was in Noe's day those that wait and see, will see when it is too late to do anything.

Here's a link if anyone is interested in the warning message
http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 02:12 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Only certain parts are reviewed, silence or confusion upon the rest.
Daniel 10, 11, 12. No credible consensus and little new since the pioneer days.

______________


I would say tremendous insights are available, but Laodicea is so satisfied with what it has, it refuses to look further.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mark and kland,
I don't see the double fulfillment of time prophecies as having a basis. If you think that the seven trumpets, in the same way as the plagues, weren't yet fulfilled, and that they probably will have a future fulfillment, this is OK to me. What I don't see as OK is saying that they had a historic fulfillment but will have also a future fulfillment. This is mixing historicism with futurism. Like when it is said that the 1260 days are both 1260 years in the past and 1260 days in the future. This is completely inconsistent. Still worse, it smells like Ford's apotelesmatic principle.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time now for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves. {7BC 949.6}


Originally Posted By: EGW
The light of prophecy still burns for the guidance of souls, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." It [The light of prophecy] shines on the pathway of the just to commend, and on the way of the unjust to lead to repentance and conversion. Through its agency sin will be rebuked and iniquity unmasked. It [The light of prophecy] is progressive in the performance of its duty to reflect light on the past, the present, and the future. {ML 42.2}


We should ever study the word to discover what God says but never to make it say what we think.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
This is mixing historicism with futurism.
Might want to define those terms.

Quote:
Like when it is said that the 1260 days are both 1260 years in the past and 1260 days in the future. This is completely inconsistent. Still worse, it smells like Ford's apotelesmatic principle.

Are there one or two 1260s? I believe there is only one 1290 and 1335. But, could there be two 1260s? If the 1290 relates to the 1260 and the 1290 applies to the future, and we know the 1260 applies to the past, then could it mean there are two 1260s?

And if the 1290 doesn't apply to the future, then what part of Daniel 12 "is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end"?

Since I document more than one 1260 I know it is not limited as others would have it. The 1290-day that once applied to the future has recently been fulfilled as well. Thus the 1290 is a historical fact now, but it is not ancient history - very recent history.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 06:01 PM

Quote:
Since I document more than one 1260 I know it is not limited as others would have it. The 1290-day that once applied to the future has recently been fulfilled as well. Thus the 1290 is a historical fact now, but it is not ancient history - very recent history.

This just confirms what I said in my post #132986. For His Child this prophecy has been fulfilled recently. Others put its fulfillment still in the future. Once people abandon the Historicist method and start looking for multiple fulfillments, the interpretation of prophecies becomes something arbitrary and subjective.

Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
In the historicist view, there is a figurative interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a year). Thus, these prophecies have a long-range nature. In the futurist view, there is a literal interpretation of the time periods of eschatological prophecies (a day for a day). Thus, these prophecies have a short-range nature. For historicists, all eschatological time-prophecies have already been fulfilled; for futurists, none of them has been fulfilled yet. It’s obvious that both methods are incompatible and can’t be mixed. You must have a standard to interpret eschatological time periods – either literally or figuratively; it can’t be both.

Even if there were two, either both would have to be literal, or both figurative.


This sounds good until it is studied as the means to an end. It does not fit the facts.

Revelation 10 states "time shall be no longer." This is not the end of prophetic time. It is the end of the 2300-years identified in Daniel 8:14 that was to culminate in the Advent of Christ in 1844. In prophetic time: a day is a year. Thus it was the end of the 2300-years, at which time the book of Daniel was to be opened. When the 2300-years ended the Adventists were disappointed because Jesus did not return.

"The message given by Miller and his associates announced the termination of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14... {GC88 351.1}." "The time of...second advent—was definitely pointed out." (GC88 328.2)" “But the time of expectation passed. This was the first close test brought to bear upon those who believed and hoped that Jesus would come in the clouds of heaven. {LS80 184.3}"

Immediately after Revelation 10 states "time shall be no longer" Revelation 11,12,13,14, etc., make references to time. Thus since time can be considered in terms of a day for a year (long-time) when time is encountered in Revelation that is to apply to a length of time after 1844 when time shall be no longer, it is not being cited as longtime, but literal time.

Example 42-months in Rev. 13 were 1260-years (538-1798) then when applied to the papacy after the wound was healed (post-1929) it is literal time a day for a day. Thus man's understanding that time has to be either longtime or literal is not as God would have us reason.

Unfortunately, man's wisdom has a way of skewing that which is plain. That becomes a real problem if man takes the position that he is right no matter what God says. And the devil is ready to encourage man to justify his conclusions rather than continuously verify the facts to be sure he is in harmony with the Divine rather than promoting a private interpretation.

Quote:
If the 1290 relates to the 1260 and the 1290 applies to the future

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Why would it apply to the future?

Because the prophecy did not fulfill all the prerequisites in the past. Study Revelation 13 carefully. The 42 months of years 1260-years from 538-1798 were fulfilled before the deadly wound was healed. The passage states
Originally Posted By: Revelation 13:3-5
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

After the wound was healed THEN the world wondered after him - did not happen while he was wounded. Then the world (Apostate Protestants) worshiped the dragon. THEN the healed beast was allotted 42-months. That is how I read it because that is what aligns with recent history.

Quote:
And if the 1290 doesn't apply to the future, then what part of Daniel 12 "is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end"?

he future[/quote]
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The passage says:

The people of God need to study what characters they must form in order to pass through the test and proving of the last days. Many are living in spiritual weakness and backsliding. They know not what they believe. Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end. There are ministers claiming to believe the truth who are not sanctified through the truth. Unless a change comes in their lives, they will say, "My Lord delayeth His coming." {15MR 228.2}

To me, Ellen White is referring simply to "the test and proving" of character that will occur before/during the time of trouble mentioned in v. 1, 10. The emphasis in the passage is not time periods, but character.


That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past.

The Holy Spirit is surely needed now more than ever before if we are to rightly divide the word of truth and not be ashamed when Jesus Comes.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Roseangela: I agree in part with your understanding here. Namely that post 1844 there are no longer applicable time elements in any prophecy that may be fulfilled, even spiritually re-fulfilled post 1844 as per the clear SOP statements towards this. However, as just stated, I indeed do not see that this precludes a typological/spiritual re-fulfillment of the prophecy, as it is seen with the three ways of fulfillment in Christ’s Olivet discourse. The book of revelation also has a Literal (Chapter 2&3), Historical (ca. 4-13:10) and Eschatological (13:11-21) [Ch. 22 = post GC] waves of fulfillment, however, as I substantively see it, certain parts in the other waves can have partial/typological/spiritual fulfillment in the current waves when/as the prophetic/development need/reality is.



Originally Posted By: EGW
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.(7BC 971.7)


Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.

The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures. The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: EGW
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,
Well, I consider that all the occurrences of the 1260 days and similar expressions (3.5 times, 42 months) refer to the same time period.
Of course different numbers would refer to different time periods, although this doesn't mean there can't be some overlapping between them.
Let's just understand this part before adding anything else.

So, you are saying same numbers refer to same time periods, but different numbers refer to different time periods. Suppose what if, it said in Daniel 12, 1261 days instead of 1260. Would that indicate a different time period? Or how about 1259? How different must the number be before it means a different time period?

Contrasting along the same line of reasoning, do all number 7 day time periods refer to the same time period?


Ok, I was trying to do an additional contrast, but was having trouble. In Daniel 7:25 we have:
Quote:
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
and in Daniel 12:
Quote:
Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Which do sound the same phraseology. But when I went to search for all occurrences of Hebrew word for "time", I didn't find both texts.

Daniel 7: <`iddan (Aramaic)>
Daniel 12: <mow`ed>
(Not to address, half <chetsiy>)

So, technically, different words were used. We translate the converted word to year, then convert the year to days, and then say they must refer to the exact same time period. Something says something is wrong with that logic.

Why is the Bible restricted to when once using a number or a phrase, which can be converted to a number to be converted to a period, it must always and only be used to for that same time period? What if it was intended to be for two different time periods that were very similar in length but due to this unreasonable restriction, it has to use a different number and so is forced to use 1261 days?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 07:18 PM

Quote:
So, you are saying same numbers refer to same time periods, but different numbers refer to different time periods. Suppose what if, it said in Daniel 12, 1261 days instead of 1260. Would that indicate a different time period? Or how about 1259? How different must the number be before it means a different time period?

1261 would indicate a different time period, but it would be only logical to infer that both time periods (1261 and 1260) were related, since they are mentioned in the same chapter, and that there is some overlapping between them, that is, that they begin or end together. In fact, this is the logic used to interpret the 1290 and 1335 days.

Quote:
So, technically, different words were used.

Different expressions were also used in "42 months" and "1260 days," however it's logical to infer that they refer to the same time period. Besides, this is due to the fact that chapter 7 was written in Aramaic, while chapters 8-12 were written in Hebrew.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
1261 would indicate a different time period, but it would be only logical to infer that both time periods (1261 and 1260) were related, since they are mentioned in the same chapter, and that there is some overlapping between them, that is, that they begin or end together. In fact, this is the logic used to interpret the 1290 and 1335 days.

No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames.

Imagine that you are trying to explain the SDA position to an outsider. What would the person think when you said that there is no pattern to interpret an escathological time prophecy - it can be fulfilled once, or twice, or x times, and it can be interpreted using a day for a day, or a year for a day, depending on... what?

Quote:
How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year.

There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it.


Dear Rosangela
I came to this discussion late. Was working on a manuscript and not getting online much over the past few months.

With that in mind, as I read this thread, I perceive that it is problematic to defend a methodology of prophetic interpretation. If the methodology does not explain the prophecy, the problem is not with the prophecy but the methodology.

And when the methodology becomes the focus, too often the prophecy is breached to make it fit the explanation.

Prophetic errors wrap themselves about bits and pieces of truth.

Here is an example: "Thou art this head of gold" Daniel 2.
Historisists focus the prophecy on his kingdom, Babylon, and totally miss the local application to the king.

"Thou art the tree" Daniel 4. Historisists focus the prophecy on the king and totally miss the application to the kingdom, Babylon.

Totally inconsistent. Daniel 2 is explained by faith totally overlooking sight. And Daniel 4 is explained by sight totally overlooking faith.

Daniel 2 has a local application to 4 kings and the grandson in Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty. It has a second longterm application that follows the kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and 2 Romes). It applies to the degeneration of religion within the kingdoms. It applies to the degeneration of morality as well. And there is a final application specifically closed-up, shut-up, and sealed until after the time of the end began (after 1798-1844).

Unfortunately, by embracing the notion that things fulfilled in the past that appear to align with a prophecy are the complete and final fulfillment of the prophecies that have not yet been completely fulfilled or that are on the verge of their final fulfillment - knowledge and light sent from the very throne of Heaven is extinguished when it is needed most.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
...the Second Coming is dependent on how faithful the Church is in finishing the work. That is why no time element is to be attached to its fulfillement as it will occur whenever the work is done. Indeed even “Final Events” will not begin to unflinchingly unravel until God supernaturally acts to allow the Four Winds to blow upon the Earth. That God will one day wrap things up by Christ appearance is the non-changing ultimate plan, however there is nothing written in stone as to when, or in which generation of “Believers” it will occur. That is all dependent on when the require Gospel Work is actually completed, and that, inherently, as it thoroughly should be.


That is like saying that Jesus will never come if Satan can keep the Church from preparing. I assure you that God's word (prophecy) is more specific than that.

Originally Posted By: EGW
We must cherish and cultivate the faith of which prophets and apostles have testified,--the faith that lays hold on the promises of God, and waits for deliverance in his appointed time and way. The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. The time of waiting may seem long; the soul may be oppressed by discouraging circumstances; many in whom confidence has been placed may fall by the way: but with the prophet who endeavored to encourage Judah in a time of unparalleled apostasy, let us confidently declare, "The Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Habakkuk 2:20. Let us ever hold in remembrance the cheering message, "The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. . . . The just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:3, 4. {RH, July 15, 1915 par. 3}


As I read it (and there are many more references like this) Christ's Advent is for an APPOINTED TIME
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 08:16 PM

Quote:
That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past.

I don't get it. How exactly does the fact that a person expects a period of 3.5 years of persecution or whatever to occur in the future affect that person's life?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/04/11 08:58 PM

Quote:
No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12.

You would still have to consider that they are in the same book, so there would be a strong possibility that both periods were related.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mark and kland,
I don't see the double fulfillment of time prophecies as having a basis. If you think that the seven trumpets, in the same way as the plagues, weren't yet fulfilled, and that they probably will have a future fulfillment, this is OK to me. What I don't see as OK is saying that they had a historic fulfillment but will have also a future fulfillment. . .


Didn't Christ and the prophets speak mainly for the benefit of this generation, the final one? Christ combined two periods when He unfolded earth’s final events in Matthew 24 – the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of human history. But you say, ‘that’s different’. OK.

What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela? “He who has ears to hear, let him/her hear.”

By definition, futurism is inconsistent with historicism, but these are human labels and human terms. We need divine principles of study. The ones recommended by Ellen White were used by ‘Father Miller’. The one I’m thinking of from his recommended principles that applies here is that a prophecy is not completely fulfilled until all of it’s particulars have been met.

NJK, I wouldn’t paint myself in a corner by saying there are no future time elements. Ellen White’s statements you referenced on this aren’t as sweeping as that. For example, saying that the people will not have another time-based message is not the same as saying there are no future time prophecies period.


That's a keeper
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past.

I don't get it. How exactly does the fact that a person expects a period of 3.5 years of persecution or whatever to occur in the future affect that person's life?

I don't get how the question links to the quote above it. Did something in the context get cut?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 06:05 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
1261 would indicate a different time period, but it would be only logical to infer that both time periods (1261 and 1260) were related, since they are mentioned in the same chapter, and that there is some overlapping between them, that is, that they begin or end together. In fact, this is the logic used to interpret the 1290 and 1335 days.

No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12.


Kland,

I think you are on the right track. Because the 1260, 42-months, and time times and dividing of time are all mathematically the same duration, it appears obvious that they refer to the same period. So if the numbers were not mathematical equivalents they would not be linked as readily.

When numbers are used in the book of Daniel, there is allot of subjectivity. Sometimes the very same numbers are translated from the original language into different numbers in English.

From Strong's allow me to give you two instances:
Unto two thousand <0505> (Daniel 8:14)
the thousand <0505> (Daniel 12:12)

0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef is translated as thousand 500 times and a variant 1 time (2000)

The same number was translated as 1000 and 2000 depending on the context. That being said, the translators got it right that time. Point being the context can affect how the number is intended to be understood.

The translators understood the history relating to Daniel 8:14 as 2300 literal days from the ascension of Artaxerxes to the cleansing of the Temple in Jerusalem by Ezra because Artaxerxes was the third and final Persian king to issue a decree to restore the Temple. And obviously Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in 457 BC near the end of a 2300-day period.

Originally Posted By: Ezra 7:7-9
And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.
8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.


2300[days]/360 [prophetic days in a year] {2300/360}=
6-years (2160-days)[6 years were fulfilled and the 7th began)
4-months (120-days)
1-day (first day of the 5th month)
(2281-days)

Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844

Thus when the Bible translators encountered 0505 which is translated as 1000 [500 times] in the Bible
they knew that it had to be translated as 2000 in Daniel 8:14

Thus you also have an instance where Daniel 8:14 is literal time in the first (local) application and a day for a year in a secondary application.

But this won't help you current discussion much or any such talk with most SDA's since they are not familiar with the 4 applications of Daniel 8:14. These two [a literal and a figurative meaning] will cause many to try to explain away the evidence because it does not fit the historisist model. I should hope that seekers for truth would prefer truth than a pet model that does not fit all the criteria in the prophecy as knowledge is increased. But it can be stressful to exit one's comfort zone.

All things considered, I have been an SDA for almost 50-years. And when God called me to study Daniel almost 20-years ago, I put an earnest effort into answering that call.

Originally Posted By: 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21
Despise not prophesyings.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


The only Private interpretation of Scriptures that matters is God's
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:19 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past.
I don't get it. How exactly does the fact that a person expects a period of 3.5 years of persecution or whatever to occur in the future affect that person's life?
I don't get how the question links to the quote above it. Did something in the context get cut?

You said it's necessary to have "'faith' in what God says will be done in the endtime." Do I need to have "faith" that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution in the endtime? How will that kind of "faith" help me?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:35 PM

Quote:
From Strong's allow me to give you two instances:
Unto two thousand <0505> (Daniel 8:14)
the thousand <0505> (Daniel 12:12)

0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef is translated as thousand 500 times and a variant 1 time (2000)

The same number was translated as 1000 and 2000 depending on the context. That being said, the translators got it right that time. Point being the context can affect how the number is intended to be understood.

The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela

You said it's necessary to have "'faith' in what God says will be done in the endtime." Do I need to have "faith" that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution in the endtime? How will that kind of "faith" help me?


Did God say there would be a period of 3.5-years of persecution in the endtime?

If He said such a thing, is it to give you faith to anticipate that it will come?

Or is such a revelation to warn you to fortify oneself by immersing into a study of the Scriptures before it would come?

If such things should come to pass, it would be too late to put God's promises into the heart after Bibles are rounded up. Too late to remember how God has answered prayers that were never prayed in the past when He withdraws.

One of the purposes of prophecy is to warn God's people before the evil comes so that they can prepare.

When the disciples were told to watch and pray three times before Judas betrayed Jesus, when the HOUR came, time was up! preparations that were not made when the opportunity was given were left undone. Will it be any different when Christ comes?

Surely if it is important to understand the three angels' messages as they relate to the HOUR of the Judgment of the dead, how much more is it that we realize that the living are now being judged? It is one thing to say that dead people are being judged - what can they do about it now that they are dead? It is quite another thing to realize that ones life is constantly under examination. Knowing that we have the opportunity to "get right with God" moment by moment and that we should do it without delay because at a moment that we least expect Jesus will end His work in the Heavenly sanctuary and those that are filthy will no longer have a chance to change.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:50 PM

Quote:
And obviously Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in 457 BC near the end of a 2300-day period.

Beginning when?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:56 PM

Quote:
Did God say there would be a period of 3.5-years of persecution in the endtime?

If He said such a thing, is it to give you faith to anticipate that it will come?

Or is such a revelation to warn you to fortify oneself by immersing into a study of the Scriptures before it would come?

Jesus said there would be a persecution. Revelation shows the same. If you fortify yourself by praying and studying the Bible, it doesn't matter how long the persecution will last. Affirming that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution is just setting another date for Christ's coming - something we are warned not to do - for what should one expect at the end of such a period of persecution?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
From Strong's allow me to give you two instances:
Unto two thousand <0505> (Daniel 8:14)
the thousand <0505> (Daniel 12:12)

0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef is translated as thousand 500 times and a variant 1 time (2000)

The same number was translated as 1000 and 2000 depending on the context. That being said, the translators got it right that time. Point being the context can affect how the number is intended to be understood.

The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."
I checked him on that and you must have a different Strong's than we have.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12.

You would still have to consider that they are in the same book, so there would be a strong possibility that both periods were related.
It sounded like you just said that all numbers in Daniel are related to the same period.


Originally Posted By: EGW
As we near the close of this world's history, the prophecies recorded by Daniel demand our special attention, as they relate to the very time in which we are living. With them should be linked the teachings of the last book of the New Testament Scriptures. Satan has led many to believe that the prophetic portions of the writings of Daniel and of John the revelator cannot be understood. But the promise is plain that special blessing will accompany the study of these prophecies. "The wise shall understand" (verse 10), was spoken of the visions of Daniel that were to be unsealed
in the latter days; and of the revelation that Christ gave to His servant John for the guidance of God's people all through the centuries, the promise is, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein." Revelation 1:3. {PK 547.2}

Why should it demand our special attention and be linked to Revelation just because we are nearing the close of Earth's history as opposed to demanding our special attention any other time?

One post you indicated there was a future application to Daniel 12, but everything else you said suggests you only believe it is history.

Would you be able to distinguish between historicism and tradition for us?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:08 PM

kland,

Strong's just give the words in the singular form. You must read the text itself. You can read it here, together with an interlinear translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Affirming that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution is just setting another date for Christ's coming - something we are warned not to do - for what should one expect at the end of such a period of persecution?
What date was set?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

Strong's just give the words in the singular form. You must read the text itself. You can read it here, together with an interlinear translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Ahh, thanks! Even if it's PDF, it's still nice to know about. Do you know anything about the downloadable version and if it works decently?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:31 PM

Quote:
It sounded like you just said that all numbers in Daniel are related to the same period.

Ellen White interprets the 1260 days as being 538-1798. She interprets the 2300 as being 457-1844, that is, including the 1260. She says:

The message of Revelation 14, proclaiming that the hour of God's judgment is come, is given in the time of the end; and the angel of Revelation 10 is represented as having one foot on the sea and one foot on the land, showing that the message will be carried to distant lands, the ocean will be crossed, and the islands of the sea will hear the proclamation of the last message of warning to our world. {2SM 107.3}

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:5, 6). This message announces the end of the prophetic periods. {2SM 108.1}

So, yes, I believe that there are still prophecies to be fulfilled during earth's history, but none of them with time attached to it.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: His Child
From Strong's allow me to give you two instances:
Unto two thousand <0505> (Daniel 8:14)
the thousand <0505> (Daniel 12:12)

0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef is translated as thousand 500 times and a variant 1 time (2000)

The same number was translated as 1000 and 2000 depending on the context. That being said, the translators got it right that time. Point being the context can affect how the number is intended to be understood.

The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."


You will have to take that up with Strong since he lists them as the same word. Without any training in the ancient languages, I have to depend on my English Bible and concordance
Then I check it out with the Spirit of Prophecy.

And sometimes I encounter "scholars" that give me views that are opposing the views of other "scholars" that I encounter. That is especially true in a study of Daniel.

Perhaps you have noticed in the KJV that Daniel 7:9 reads
"I beheld till the thrones were cast down,"

and in other versions the same phrase is rendered:

"As I looked, thrones were placed" (RSV)
"I kept looking,Until thrones were set up," (NASB)

So one translator says his rendition is better than the others
And they haggle is it this or that?

All the while, they miss the point.

Revelation 10 says the little book (Daniel) is now open. And it says: " And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:" (10:6)

Context: 1844 when the sweet and bitter experience was known after the great disappointment
created things in heaven - thrones set up - Judgment (1844)
created things in earth - thrones set up - America's Louisiana Purchase (1805)
created things in sea- thrones cast down - papal rule over church & state (1798)

both renditions are right depending on the context. But some scholars would totally disregard 1/2 the truth because it does not fit into their paradigm

They say one needs to be careful not to throw a baby out with the wash water. Can you imagine such as that?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

Strong's just give the words in the singular form. You must read the text itself. You can read it here, together with an interlinear translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Ahh, thanks! Even if it's PDF, it's still nice to know about. Do you know anything about the downloadable version and if it works decently?


Thank you I now have another tool in my study toolbox.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:37 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

Strong's just give the words in the singular form. You must read the text itself. You can read it here, together with an interlinear translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Ahh, thanks! Even if it's PDF, it's still nice to know about. Do you know anything about the downloadable version and if it works decently?


The software does work very well and is a great study tool Kland. I have been using their software for a year now. I have learn much about how to read the original source text and to see the literal translation of each words (or prefix and suffix characters attach to a Hebrew word) in a text. Plus it has a very nice search engines and strongs codes references under each words and strong's definition just a click away.

I would say it's well worth to download this software and would recommend it.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:39 PM

Quote:
What date was set?

When the persecution does begin, the countdown would also begin.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 04:46 PM

Quote:
The software does work very well and is a great study tool Kland.

Yes, very useful.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
And obviously Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in 457 BC near the end of a 2300-day period.

Beginning when?


Dear Rosangela,

Did I not include that information? My apology.

Originally Posted By: Ezra 7:7-9

And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.
8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.


Since it was the seventh year of King Artaxerxes, Ezra had to begin counting the 2300-days from the beginning of King Artaxerxes reign. Artaxerxes was the king that issued the third and final decree for the restoration.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, as completed by the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus (see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9, margin), went into effect in the autumn of B. C. 457. {DA 233.1}


But perhaps you would like a few more details?

Jerusalem fell to King Nebuchadnezzar in 605 BC.

Jeremiah said it would be desolate 70-years.

Quote:
Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Within about two years of the fall of Babylon, Cyrus succeeded to the throne, and the beginning of his reign marked the completion of the seventy years since the first company of Hebrews had been taken by Nebuchadnezzar from their Judean home to Babylon. {PK 556.4}


605BC - 70 years = 535BC

Did you notice that Jeremiah said it would take 70-years? The 70-years ended in 535, but Jerusalem and the Temple were still in ruins. The final decree was issued in 457BC.

Quote:
Jer 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.


Thus the Lord said through Jeremiah the 70-years were to be doubled. 605BC to Cyrus 535BC (70-years). 535-70=465BC the year in which the 70-years doubled (140-years) ended. The next year Artaxerxes became king and the 2300 literal days began. They ended on Yom Kippur 457BC. Ezra and his group arrived in Jerusalem about 19-days before Yom Kippur.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The 2300 days had been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of B.C. 457. Taking this as the starting point, there was perfect harmony in the application of all the events foretold ... extend to 1844. "Then," said the angel, "shall the sanctuary be cleansed." {FLB 208.3}

Miller and his associates at first believed that the 2300 days would terminate in the spring of 1844, whereas the prophecy points to the autumn of that year. ... But this did not in the least affect the strength of the argument showing that the 2300 days terminated in the year 1844, and that the great event represented by the cleansing of the sanctuary must then take place. {GC88 328.3}


I hope that answers your question. I don't get asked about that too often. It is in my first book on Daniel (Defying Destiny) published in 2001. But knowledge has increased far beyond that as we near the end of the months that remain in the endtime.

How much time do we have left? I don't know.

How long will Pope Benedict XVI live? If you know the answer to the pope question, you know more than I do.

If you are an individual that really wants to know endtime prophecies and what God expects of His people, i.e., why He tells them this stuff, you would be blessed by reading "Echoes of Doomsday." The "new light" that sets it apart from rehashing so many things in Daniel and Revelation is that the Abomination of Desolation was set up, when and by whom, and that the 1290-days and 1335-days have already ended. What was the blessing and who received it?

http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation

I don't want to sound like a commercial. But the download is on sale for less than $5.00 as an intro promo. Those that are giving me feedback thus far say that the bulk of the information is need to know stuff. But don't imagine that I have everything perfect. I'm human and striving to rightly divide the word while the devil is doing his thing to keep that from happening. And if he can't keep the lid on truth, he will settle for keeping the saints away from it. As long as he can have us slumber a little longer, he will be happy.

But we have God's promises! (from memory) The wise will understand. My word will not return unto Me void, but it will accomplish what I send it to do. Not by might or by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord! And there are more.

Be blessed as much as you will receive; and receive as much as you can give again.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Did God say there would be a period of 3.5-years of persecution in the endtime?

If He said such a thing, is it to give you faith to anticipate that it will come?

Or is such a revelation to warn you to fortify oneself by immersing into a study of the Scriptures before it would come?

Jesus said there would be a persecution. Revelation shows the same. If you fortify yourself by praying and studying the Bible, it doesn't matter how long the persecution will last. Affirming that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution is just setting another date for Christ's coming - something we are warned not to do - for what should one expect at the end of such a period of persecution?


I never gave too much thought or study to the 3.5-year notion of endtime persecution that you suggested. I have encountered it in passing from radio preachers, but it did not seem to fit anything that I had studied in the Bible.

Revelation states that some will be persecuted 10-days. "Be thou faithful unto death" And there is evidence in the Spirit of prophecy that suggests that the 7 churches depict 7 periods of church history and in another sense, all seven churches coexist until Christ comes.

This I know. The persecution is going to begin soon enough. I hope it does not last 3.5-years - 10days would be to long from the perspective of the persecuted.

If you feel there is a case for 3.5-years of persecution; present the evidence and we can prayerfully look at it.

And remember. Jesus says that if we don't watch we won't know the day and the hour. What are we to watch? The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Are we to search for the day and the hour? NO. But as the fig tree puts its leaves on in spring we are to know when it is spring and discern that the figs leaves are on the plant when they are there.

Originally Posted By: Revelation 3:3
If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Originally Posted By: EGW
we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000, in number, know and understand the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder & an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai, (Exodus 34:30-34.){DS, January 24, 1846 par. 1}
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 08:58 PM

Quote:
If you feel there is a case for 3.5-years of persecution; present the evidence and we can prayerfully look at it.

Of course I don't, since I don't believe in a day/day interpretation of prophecies. But many do, as the following post shows:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=122929#Post122929

It's also worth to take a look at the whole thread. It's a short one, but it has Eugene Prewitt and Colin Standish's valuable contributions.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 09:04 PM

Also, some might want to take a look at this thread, which discusses Daniel 12, and where there is a link to Eugene Prewitt's study about it.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/05/11 11:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It sounded like you just said that all numbers in Daniel are related to the same period.

Ellen White interprets the 1260 days as being 538-1798. She interprets the 2300 as being 457-1844, that is, including the 1260.
But you're still under the supposition that all numbers are related to the same period. Where does Ellen White say the 1260 of Daniel 12 is 538-1798? In fact, does she say anything about Daniel 12 other than we need to study it for the future? Is there anything in Daniel 12 that applies to the future? Or anything in Daniel for that matter?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/06/11 05:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It sounded like you just said that all numbers in Daniel are related to the same period.

Ellen White interprets the 1260 days as being 538-1798. She interprets the 2300 as being 457-1844, that is, including the 1260. She says:

The message of Revelation 14, proclaiming that the hour of God's judgment is come, is given in the time of the end; and the angel of Revelation 10 is represented as having one foot on the sea and one foot on the land, showing that the message will be carried to distant lands, the ocean will be crossed, and the islands of the sea will hear the proclamation of the last message of warning to our world. {2SM 107.3}

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:5, 6). This message announces the end of the prophetic periods. {2SM 108.1}

So, yes, I believe that there are still prophecies to be fulfilled during earth's history, but none of them with time attached to it.


This quote "This message announces the end of the prophetic periods. {2SM 108.1}" Is often interpreted to say that all prophetic time ended at that time. But the phrases "prophetic periods" and "prophetic time" as used in th Spirit of Prophecy refer to the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2}
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/06/11 05:16 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
From Strong's allow me to give you two instances:
Unto two thousand <0505> (Daniel 8:14)
the thousand <0505> (Daniel 12:12)

0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef is translated as thousand 500 times and a variant 1 time (2000)

The same number was translated as 1000 and 2000 depending on the context. That being said, the translators got it right that time. Point being the context can affect how the number is intended to be understood.

The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."
I checked him on that and you must have a different Strong's than we have.


Here is the quote:"14 And he said <0559> (8799) unto me, Unto two thousand <0505> and three <07969> hundred <03967> days <06153> <01242>; then shall the sanctuary <06944> be cleansed <06663> (8738)."

and here's the cross-reference:
0505 &#1507;&#1500;&#1488; ‘eleph eh’- lef

prop, the same as 0504; n m; {See TWOT on 109 @@ "109a"}

AV-thousand 500, eleven hundred + 03967 3, variant 1, twelve hundred + 03967 1; 505

1) a thousand
1a) as numeral
2) a thousand, company
2a) as a company of men under one leader, troops

That is something you will have to take up with the online Bible people that make Strong's available to everyone.

But it is helpful to have this reference that you kindly gave http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan8.pdf

a little more time consuming but truth is worth a little extra effort.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/06/11 05:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

Strong's just give the words in the singular form. You must read the text itself. You can read it here, together with an interlinear translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm


This is something I did not know. Thank you.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/06/11 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
But you're still under the supposition that all numbers are related to the same period. Where does Ellen White say the 1260 of Daniel 12 is 538-1798? In fact, does she say anything about Daniel 12 other than we need to study it for the future? Is there anything in Daniel 12 that applies to the future? Or anything in Daniel for that matter?


Kland this might help.

Originally Posted By: EGW
[Daniel 12:9, 4, 10, 13 quoted.] The time has come for Daniel to stand in his lot. The time has come for the light given him to go to the world as never before. If those for whom the Lord has done so much will walk in the light, their knowledge of Christ and the prophecies relating to Him will be greatly increased as they near the close of this earth's history (MS 176, 1899).


When she states light is to go as never before, is she saying a different method of disseminating light or a different meaning is to be attached to the prophecies in the endtime?

Originally Posted By: EGW
Even the prophets, who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit, did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained. (GC88 344.2)


Originally Posted By: EGW
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves.(7BC 949.6)


Originally Posted By: EGW
The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon have come to pass (Letter 57, 1896).


In Daniel 10:4 Gabriel's explanation that was given by the Hiddekel River and 12:5 shows that Daniel is still at the river. Thus Daniel 12 relates especially to the last days. So when are the "last days" according to the SoP?

Originally Posted By: EGW
...error as I was compelled to meet among Advent believers after the passing of the time in 1844, will be repeated in these last days.--Letter 358, 1908.


Since Mrs. White places "these last days" after 1844, and Daniel 12 is linked to the rivers, it follows that EVERYTHING in Daniel 12 "from God was given especially for these last days." Thus the 1260 in Daniel 12 is not applicable to the 538-1798 events that are fixed historically before 1844.

And the 1260, 1290 and 1335 in Daniel 12 cannot be understood after 1844 in the context of a day for a year and still apply to the last days (sometime beyond 1844). From any date after 1844, the 1260-years would extend beyond 3104AD.

Thank you for asking.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 03:55 AM

Quote:
But you're still under the supposition that all numbers are related to the same period. Where does Ellen White say the 1260 of Daniel 12 is 538-1798?

The passage says:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And I said to the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by him that liveth for ever, that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1290 days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Ellen White comments on this:

Twice Daniel inquired, How long shall it be to the end of time? "And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days. Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel's message should be proclaimed to our world. These matters are of infinite importance in these last days; but while "many shall be purified, and made white, and tried," "the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand." How true this is! Sin is the transgression of the law of God; and those who will not accept the light in regard to the law of God will not understand the proclamation of the first, second, and third angel's messages. The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth's history. {TM 114.6-115.3}

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Dan. 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}

The prophecy of the first angel's message, brought to view in Revelation 14, found its fulfillment in the advent movement of 1840-44. In both Europe and America, men of faith and prayer were deeply moved as their attention was called to the prophecies, and, tracing down the Inspired Record, they saw convincing evidence that the end of all things was at hand. The Spirit of God urged His servants to give the warning. Far and wide spread the message of the everlasting gospel, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Rev. 14:7. {SR 356.1}

If in the city of Boston and other cities of the East, you and your wife will unite in medical evangelistic work, your usefulness will increase, and there will open before you clear views of duty. In these cities the message of the first angel went with great power in 1842 and 1843, and now the time has come when the message of the third angel is to be proclaimed extensively in the East. --Letter 20, 1910. {Ev 389.3}

So, to me things are clear. Daniel's message was sealed until the time of the end. As Daniel inquired when the time of the end would be, the answer was that it would be after a time, times and a half (1260 days); there is then a mention to the 1290 days and blessing on those who come to the 1335 days. Then it's said that Daniel would stand in his lot at the end of the days. Ellen White says that the time of the end would be at the proclamation of the 1st angel's message; since then Daniel is standing in his lot. She says this was in the advent movement of 1840-1844, but specially in 1842/1843. Remember that according to the Historicist interpretation the 1335 days end in 1843. So it's clear that the 1260 go from 538 to 1798, the 1290 from 508 to 1798, and the 1335 from 508 to 1843. There is a perfect harmony between this interpretation and what the Bible and Ellen White say.

Quote:
Is there anything in Daniel 12 that applies to the future?

Sure. Verses 1-3. They portray the very end of the time of the end. The verses following these speak about the beginning of the time of the end.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:19 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Roseangela: I agree in part with your understanding here. Namely that post 1844 there are no longer applicable time elements in any prophecy that may be fulfilled, even spiritually re-fulfilled post 1844 as per the clear SOP statements towards this. However, as just stated, I indeed do not see that this precludes a typological/spiritual re-fulfillment of the prophecy, as it is seen with the three ways of fulfillment in Christ’s Olivet discourse. The book of revelation also has a Literal (Chapter 2&3), Historical (ca. 4-13:10) and Eschatological (13:11-21) [Ch. 22 = post GC] waves of fulfillment, however, as I substantively see it, certain parts in the other waves can have partial/typological/spiritual fulfillment in the current waves when/as the prophetic/development need/reality is.


Originally Posted By: EGW
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.(7BC 971.7)


Originally Posted By: His child
Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.


I don’t see this response as being indicative nor conclusive of your point that prophetic time should be reckoned after 1844. Perhaps you think that the phrase: “which should precede the advent of our Lord” means ‘the time until/up to when Jesus actually returns,’ but that view would be/is refuted by the fact that, as recorded in 1MR 100.1, EGW made that statement in 1900 [=Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.)], thus 56 years after 1844. Moreover, quite clearly in that statement, she understood this include all time period shorter than ‘the longest of those times’, namely the 2300 days.

Originally Posted By: His child
The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures.


From even just your quoted EGW statement above I don’t see this to be true. Also what “Scripture” are you referring to. To say that you “believe” that the time element in a Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or even, has recently been fulfilled, is not actually a proof against this “I was shown” statement of EGW.

Also these already cited, many other SOP quotes in this regard, (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) clearly show that EGW was copiously, consistently and unequivocally clear on this issue, even rebuking those in her time who went against it. (See e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]) Indeed, though she spoke of many time fulfillments which she even expected for her time, she never made an exposition on time elements, indeed namely, the 1290 & 1335 days.

Indeed it makes all the sense in the world why God would make a direct revelation to EGW about this, given the normative, even logical, likelihood of involving time element in future fulfillments.

Originally Posted By: His child
The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: EGW
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)


These SOP quotes are taken out of their context. You are making them seem like EGW is ‘rebuking the error of not make prophetic time interpretation after 1844' when that is not at all what she was saying nor referring to as “error”. Therefore this is a patent SOP “proof text”

In ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15 she is referring to doctrinal errors in the Early NT Church During Paul’s and John time. There was not even a notion or understanding of how to interpret time prophecies then.

In FE 450.1, indeed as seen in the opening sentence of that paragraph that you left out she says: “Great light was given to the Reformers, but many of them received the sophistry of error through misinterpretation of the Scriptures.” Thus she is referring to errors from the time of these Reformers. And as the work of these Reformers went on to make understood the interpretation of time elements in Bible prophecies, she surely, especially in your view, is not saying that this was one of the pointed errors that been passed on to the, actually distinct Remnant Church. Indeed she, writing this in 1897 (see SpTEd 154.1) is speaking about Catholic and Protestant Churches (not including of course, the SDA Church).
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:22 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
...the Second Coming is dependent on how faithful the Church is in finishing the work. That is why no time element is to be attached to its fulfillement as it will occur whenever the work is done. Indeed even “Final Events” will not begin to unflinchingly unravel until God supernaturally acts to allow the Four Winds to blow upon the Earth. That God will one day wrap things up by Christ appearance is the non-changing ultimate plan, however there is nothing written in stone as to when, or in which generation of “Believers” it will occur. That is all dependent on when the require Gospel Work is actually completed, and that, inherently, as it thoroughly should be.


Originally Posted By: His child
That is like saying that Jesus will never come if Satan can keep the Church from preparing.


Actually that is what I do understand as the Theological Truth and Reality. If: “Satan can keep the Church from preparing” which can only be done by Church members choosing to follow and adhere to the unbiblical suggestions of Satan, then how can the Character of God ever be perfectly reproduced in them?? Indeed: “Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church.” (COL 69.1).

For God to “make this happen”, would be for Him to violate man’s freewill and force professed believer to “perfectly”, as He fully expects, do His will (COL 62.1-69.2) = ‘reflect His Character.’

Originally Posted By: His child
I assure you that God's word (prophecy) is more specific than that.


The (though falsely concluded) “ambiguity” here is not with God or His Word, but with the freedom man has been given. Jesus will come. When the work is done, which will and only can be done by a Character-wise, “perfected” people of God.

Also to claim, as implied that you “assuredly” have specific prophetic time for the unfolding of Final Events and/or from the Bible, the time for the Second is, by SOP and Bible testimony actually quite unbiblical.

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: EGW
We must cherish and cultivate the faith of which prophets and apostles have testified,--the faith that lays hold on the promises of God, and waits for deliverance in his appointed time and way. The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. The time of waiting may seem long; the soul may be oppressed by discouraging circumstances; many in whom confidence has been placed may fall by the way: but with the prophet who endeavored to encourage Judah in a time of unparalleled apostasy, let us confidently declare, "The Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Habakkuk 2:20. Let us ever hold in remembrance the cheering message, "The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. . . . The just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:3, 4. {RH, July 15, 1915 par. 3}


As I read it (and there are many more references like this) Christ's Advent is for an APPOINTED TIME


When taken into fuller SOP context, this concept of an “Appointed Time” is clearly dependent on when the work really begins to be finished. Both the Bible and SOP speak of the Four Winds being about to be released but God then commissioning an angel to hold them back. EGW saw this occurring in her time. Indeed she believed that the Second Coming would have occurred in her day, had the Church been ready. So clearly God’s “appointed time” depends first on the advent of a “season” and that is pivotally the “season” of a truly prepared people who are then engaged in truly finishing God’s work, and that, as He expects it to be done.

(For transparency and documentation’s sake, it would be interesting to see your other “appointed time” statements. Just cite the SOP references.)
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:24 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844


Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."


To be even more specific here, as it is interpretationally significant, given that the qualifying cardinal number “two” is also used in Hebrew (Strong’s#08147 e.g, Gen 1:16), “alphim” here is a “dual”, thus literally saying: ‘unto a couple of thousand and three hundred...’

(Interestingly enough, if applicable, the first of these ‘1000 years’ takes one to ca. the setting up of the Church State Apostasy (ca. 544 A.D.) And then the second ‘1000 years’ (=1544 A.D. to time by which the “Protestant Church, under the Reforms of Martin Luther (d. 1546) had been established. Then ‘300 years’ to fine tune that and further Reform that Protestant Movement into the Remnant Church.)
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:27 AM

His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related [url=]Youtube clip[/url] for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela?

Mark,
I'm not sure EGW believed Miller's and Smith's view of the trumpets was correct, or that she endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch about the 6th trumpet (which seems to include a mistake). Neither am I certain that she makes a future application of the trumpets. In fact, I have no definite position about the trumpets. . .


I'm glad you're open to a possible future application of the trumpets. Why not study it out for yourself and as part of your study, analyze whether Ellen White applied the trumpets to the past; for example, have a close look at her inclusion of the Litch prediction of the Aug 11, 1840 fall of the Ottoman Empire in the Great Controversy. If there is a mistake in that part of the book, analyze that and not only whether the prophet accidentally accepted the mistake but more importantly whether she misapplied the passage. We’d agree that it’s one thing for a prophet to accidentally get an historic date wrong, but another to misapply scripture. And then look at the scripture and her writings on their possible future application. The trumpets is a good test case for the supposition that a time prophecy has to be either all symbolic or all literal. More on this in the next post.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/07/11 10:56 PM

One of the main passages that gives rise to the day/year principle is the 40 years of wilderness living God imposed on rebellious Israel. For each day of the 40 days that the 12 spies spent in the Promised Land gathering intelligence, Israel was to wander for a year.
Quote:

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. Num 14:34


It’s interesting though the three greatest men of faith in scripture – Moses, Elijah and Christ - all spent 40 days in the same wilderness fasting and praying and communing with God. The Spirit is saying by this that whereas the 40 days of privation endured by the champions of faith had the intended result - strengthening these men for their work - spiritual Israel may languish in unbelief for years rather than days in failing to meet the same test.

Historically, God’s people were led into the wilderness and nourished in the wilderness for 40 years and again for 1260 years. On the Millerite and pioneer charts of the 1840’s and 50’s, there are two 1260 day periods that span 2520 years, the first period the punishment of literal Israel and the second the punishment of the church, spiritual Israel. It would be consistent with this pattern for the church to find itself again in the “wilderness” as it preaches the third angel’s messages under intense persecution for a literal 3.5 year period while the dragon attempts to carry her away with a flood. Whereas the Millerites and the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers believed the two 1260 year periods to be the scattering and chastening time, when men and women of faith at the end of time lead the battle charge and are led once again into the wilderness of testing, what took a year will take a day.

That’s the message of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. They have the same faith experience as those of Moses and Elijah, they are granted the same powers as these great men of faith and they fulfill the Seventh-day Adventist commission to prophecy again.

Quote:
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/08/11 01:42 AM

The other passage establishing the day/year principle is in Ezekiel 4.

Quote:
Eze 4:1 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:
Eze 4:2 And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
Eze 4:3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.


Notice the close parallel between the circumstances of this prophecy and the 40 years of wilderness wandering and humbling. Here Judah is punished, but in this case it’s the reverse scenario; rather than suffering and wandering 40 years as punishment for 40 days of unbelief, here the punishment is 40 days of siege punishment for 40 years of unfaithfulness. And the same parallel is seen in the case of Israel; for 390 years of iniquity the siege was to last 390 days. So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

Consider the implications. The two passages that establish the day/year principle operate both ways. So we have one prophecy of 40 represent days and the same period is the second case representing years. It's the context that determines which applies.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/08/11 01:52 AM

But notice that these year/day, day/year periods are both periods of punishment/humbling of Isreal. If we accept the two periods of 1260 years taught by the pioneers on the same basis they taught them – years of punishment, scattering – it’s not a big step to see that if the church responds in faith to its final testing the church can be gathered in 1260 days.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/08/11 03:51 AM

Mark,

Quote:
I'm glad you're open to a possible future application of the trumpets.

I have not studied this subject yet, so I cannot assume a position.

Quote:
It’s interesting though the three greatest men of faith in scripture – Moses, Elijah and Christ - all spent 40 days in the same wilderness fasting and praying and communing with God. The Spirit is saying by this that whereas the 40 days of privation endured by the champions of faith had the intended result - strengthening these men for their work - spiritual Israel may languish in unbelief for years rather than days in failing to meet the same test.

There is no prophecy linking the 40-day-fast of these persons to the future experience of the church.

Quote:
Historically, God’s people were led into the wilderness and nourished in the wilderness for 40 years and again for 1260 years. On the Millerite and pioneer charts of the 1840’s and 50’s, there are two 1260 day periods that span 2520 years, the first period the punishment of literal Israel and the second the punishment of the church, spiritual Israel. It would be consistent with this pattern for the church to find itself again in the “wilderness” as it preaches the third angel’s messages under intense persecution for a literal 3.5 year period while the dragon attempts to carry her away with a flood. Whereas the Millerites and the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers believed the two 1260 year periods to be the scattering and chastening time, when men and women of faith at the end of time lead the battle charge and are led once again into the wilderness of testing, what took a year will take a day.

One cannot pick and choose which prophecies have a double fulfillment. Do the 1260 days of Dan. 7:25 have a double fulfillment? Are they the same 1260 days of Dan. 12? And of Rev. 11? Do the 1290 and 1335 days of Dan. 12 have a double fulfillment? Do the 2300 days have a double fulfillment? Do the 70 weeks (or a part of them) have a double fulfillment? Has the double fulfillment for these prophecies occurred yet or are they in the future? Several people say several things and they are often in disagreement with one another about their views. Once these views are accepted, the day/year principle is discredited and eventually abandoned, and confusion sets in.
(By the way, Miller and the Millerites had several prophetic interpretations which Ellen White never endorsed.)

Quote:
So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

About this, I would quote the following:

Quote:
Now some have tried to say that here God is letting a year of iniquity be represented by a day of Ezekiel's affliction. Thus they claim that Numbers 14:34 gives a day for a year, but Ezekiel 4:6 gives a year for a day. They say these two equations represent an inversion and are not equivalent equations. Yet see the phrase repeated in each of the verses: A DAY FOR A YEAR, A DAY FOR A YEAR.
The text in Ezekiel is not really an inversion at all. "It is not backwards". Read it over again, and see that the message or symbolic prophecy is in days, while the actual fulfilment was in years.
Ezekiel is commanded by the LORD, to act out a prophecy, which is recorded in chapter four. Just because a prophecy is acted out rather than spoken doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. Yes, he acted it out for literal days, but these days are still symbolic for real events that are not symbolic.
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html

Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/09/11 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
So, to me things are clear. Daniel's message was sealed until the time of the end. As Daniel inquired when the time of the end would be, the answer was that it would be after a time, times and a half (1260 days); there is then a mention to the 1290 days and blessing on those who come to the 1335 days. Then it's said that Daniel would stand in his lot at the end of the days. Ellen White says that the time of the end would be at the proclamation of the 1st angel's message; since then Daniel is standing in his lot. She says this was in the advent movement of 1840-1844, but specially in 1842/1843. Remember that according to the Historicist interpretation the 1335 days end in 1843. So it's clear that the 1260 go from 538 to 1798, the 1290 from 508 to 1798, and the 1335 from 508 to 1843. There is a perfect harmony between this interpretation and what the Bible and Ellen White say.
Some questions come to mind is, there is more than 1 angel, right? When did she write those things? What of Daniel 12 are we to apply to the future?

Quote:

Quote:
Is there anything in Daniel 12 that applies to the future?

Sure. Verses 1-3. They portray the very end of the time of the end. The verses following these speak about the beginning of the time of the end.

I did say "Daniel 12", but didn't intend to mean what was part of Daniel 11. You may want to consult the Commentary on that.



I was watching the Creation and Evolution Debate with Dr. Standish, and he spoke about people's "world view". Coal is supposedly millions of years old. But yet, when they test it, they find C14 in it. A creationist with his world view says, that indicates it is less than 100,000 years old. An evolutionist with his world view says, well, it didn't come from coal because it is way too old to contain any, therefore it must be from contamination. Their world view prohibits them from even considering anything else. I believe it is subconsciously.

Likewise, I believe you have a world view that all of Daniel has already happened in the past. I have asked multiple times, and you have switched to other topics. I believe your world view is giving you a mental block from being able to even consider there may be a future application of Daniel 12. When I was reading your quotes and especially what you have bolded, I couldn't figure out what you were saying as it seemed the exact opposite. I guess it depends upon your world view.

You have not distinguished between historicism and tradition leading me to believe you consider them the same. However, whose tradition should you go with. Again, you may want to consult the commentary as there is more than one view. I can't change your world view and neither can the commentary. I can only suggest you consider the possibility.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/09/11 11:55 PM

kland,

What you said also applies to yourself. Now, I haven't switched to other topics. I have sticken to the subject. I don't believe all prophecies apply to the past - I'm not a preterist. My view is Historicism - which means that all prophecies are fulfilled within history. Of course human history is still in progress, so there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Now, if you ask me if I believe that there are still time prophecies to be fulfilled, I'll tell you I don't. Why? Simply because I don't believe this world will last long enough for another 1260 (or 1290, or 1335) years to fulfill a prophecy. I do distinguish between Historicism and tradition, but you don't seem to distinguish between Historicism and ecleticism. Within Historicism, all prophecies are interpreted within the pattern of a day for a year. Now, if you don't see anything wrong in arbitrarily interpreting prophecies in some instances as a day for a year, and in other instances as a day for a day, what else can I say? However, you should be aware that the pattern you are following is not a historicist one, but an ecleticist one.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/10/11 02:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela


Quote:
So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

About this, I would quote the following:

Quote:
Now some have tried to say that here God is letting a year of iniquity be represented by a day of Ezekiel's affliction. Thus they claim that Numbers 14:34 gives a day for a year, but Ezekiel 4:6 gives a year for a day. They say these two equations represent an inversion and are not equivalent equations. Yet see the phrase repeated in each of the verses: A DAY FOR A YEAR, A DAY FOR A YEAR.
The text in Ezekiel is not really an inversion at all. "It is not backwards". Read it over again, and see that the message or symbolic prophecy is in days, while the actual fulfilment was in years.
Ezekiel is commanded by the LORD, to act out a prophecy, which is recorded in chapter four. Just because a prophecy is acted out rather than spoken doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. Yes, he acted it out for literal days, but these days are still symbolic for real events that are not symbolic.
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html


Have another look. Is the seige/punishment symbolic or literal? The seige is the punishment and there is no doubt it occurred literally and it was as the author notes a 'day for a year', whereas the punishment of Israel in the wilderness was the opposite, a year of punishment for a day of spying/unbelief.

What's bad about spying? The Isrealites should have trusted God that He would give them a good land. The spying was not necessary and was positively harmful.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/10/11 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Notice the close parallel between the circumstances of this prophecy and the 40 years of wilderness wandering and humbling. Here Judah is punished, but in this case it’s the reverse scenario; rather than suffering and wandering 40 years as punishment for 40 days of unbelief, here the punishment is 40 days of siege punishment for 40 years of unfaithfulness. And the same parallel is seen in the case of Israel; for 390 years of iniquity the siege was to last 390 days. So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

Consider the implications. The two passages that establish the day/year principle operate both ways. So we have one prophecy of 40 represent days and the same period is the second case representing years. It's the context that determines which applies.
That's an interesting thought. Kind of an inverse parallelism.

Mark, it's obvious that not all time prophecies are a year for a day. Rosangela said there was a thread about determining when it's a symbolic day and when it's a literal day, but I can see there is no incentive for her to search for it assuming it showed there are times for each. How do you say one determines which determines which? More specifically, do you believe Daniel 12 (not the part of chapter 11), applies to the past, the future, or both?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/10/11 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Since Mrs. White places "these last days" after 1844, and Daniel 12 is linked to the rivers, it follows that EVERYTHING in Daniel 12 "from God was given especially for these last days." Thus the 1260 in Daniel 12 is not applicable to the 538-1798 events that are fixed historically before 1844.

And the 1260, 1290 and 1335 in Daniel 12 cannot be understood after 1844 in the context of a day for a year and still apply to the last days (sometime beyond 1844). From any date after 1844, the 1260-years would extend beyond 3104AD.
Besides making reasonable sense, do you see there any other reason why Daniel 12 is literal days instead of symbolic days?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 12:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Have another look. Is the seige/punishment symbolic or literal? The seige is the punishment and there is no doubt it occurred literally and it was as the author notes a 'day for a year', whereas the punishment of Israel in the wilderness was the opposite, a year of punishment for a day of spying/unbelief.


It seems to me that there are two distinct symbolic events in Ezek 4:1-8. There is a siege against Jerusalem (vss. 1-3 & 7, 8) with a bearing of the sins of Israel (390) and Judah (40) (vs. 4-6). These actually represented literal years of sins. As summarized here, (see in Section {5}), Israel’s 390 years extended from ca. 928 B.C. until the Restoration in 538 B.C. and Judah’s 40 years would be, as God judiciously planned, for the Ezekiel prophecied Judgement (Ezek 8-11) when a complete destruction of their religious community was effectuated. Ezekiel’s days of siege (4:7, 8) were not specified.


Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
What's bad about spying? The Isrealites should have trusted God that He would give them a good land. The spying was not necessary and was positively harmful.


Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)??

It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff). Either way I do see this as something “harmful” in itself, especially “positively”. As seen by the good reports of Joshua and Caleb, it could/should have been a faith confirming act. In fact, God probably, at the very least, permitted it so that the faith of the Israelites in Him could be concretely tested before He supernaturally acted for them, as before they did not have a knowledge of what they were going to face and have to trust God with. And, also, it was, in terms of wider witness, better for them to become faithless and fail before engaging in the fight, then while in the fight, as that would mean sure, and even utter, defeat in the hand of their enemies, as these enemies would make sure not to leave any Israelite alive (i.e., the woman and children who would have remained in the camp beyond the Jordan) who may later try again to dispossess them of their land.

So, also, it can be seen that God’s planned punishment of even utterly wiping out Israel for this hindering faithlessness was indeed just and quite fitting.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)??

It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff).


Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.

Re the duration of Ezekiel's acted prophecy, chapter 4, unless I've missed something obvious (like I did above), I don't see how you can say the days of the seige weren't specified.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
How do you say one determines which determines which? More specifically, do you believe Daniel 12 (not the part of chapter 11), applies to the past, the future, or both?


kland, I'm still studying that issue. Miller's rules of interpretation are helpful. His Child's thoughts are reasonable in my view too. I think Daniel 12 applies primarily to the future.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 06:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Re the duration of Ezekiel's acted prophecy, chapter 4, unless I've missed something obvious (like I did above), I don't see how you can say the days of the seige weren't specified.


Perhaps, upon closer reading/analysis, Ezek 4:8 does tie the “sieging” and “sin bearing” acts together, and this may be for the tangible reason that, just as a siege is to prevent a city from obtaining/procuring additional/new livelihood, possibly ending in its death if it was not properly prepared/stocked up, the time that Ezekiel was to bear the sins of both Israel (10 tribes) and Judah (2 tribes) was going to be a period where Jerusalem was also going to have to Spiritually “survive on its own” while its past and outstanding sins were being atoned for on a ‘day for a year’ basis. Ezek 4:9-17 seems to symbolically depict/indicate the results of this Spiritual “seige-like” hiatus.

This all seems to be the same things that occurs when sins are put away in God’s Sanctuary, as for a while, there no longer is an Intercessor. This also briefly occurred during Israel’s annual day of Atonement. So during that sin atoning time, as in the siege, people were to live/survive solely on/from the Spiritual and Physical “provisions” that they had made prior to this time.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 06:41 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Where in the Bible is it said/implied/supported, as EGW claims, that “it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses” (PP 387.1)?? It rather seems to me that it was God who outrightly ordered that a spying of the land take place (Num 13:1, 2ff).


Though I still don’t see explicit Biblical corroboration for EGW’s claim here, I could see along her lines, that it was the faithless actions of the People, as especially seen in chapters leading up to this, (namely Num 11; cf. 12), that may have led God to test their faith here, to see if it was really deserving of what He was about to do for them. And so He instructed that spies should be sent to make these testing facts known.

Notwithstanding, it also may then have been quite possible that this idea was “proposed” by these now quite faithless people and God indeed approved it through these instructions not to reassure the people as what the 10 faithless spies stated was in some ways the truth (it is just that they chose to focus on the negatives), but to test them as He normative does (Deut 8:2; 13:1-3; cf. Gen 22:12; Exod 15:25, 26; 16:4; 2 Chr 32:31)
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 03:25 PM

Some resources for those who wish to study more about this subject:

The Time Prophecies in Dan. 12 – by Gerhard Pfandl
www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/.../The%20Time%20Prophecies%20in%20Dan%2012.pdf

The 1.290 and 1.335 Days of Daniel 12 – by Alberto R. Timm
http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/daniel12.htm

kland:
I couldn't find the thread where we discussed the figurative language used when the numbers are to be taken figuratively, but you will find some comments about it in this study:
biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/year-day%20principle.pdf.
One of the indicators is that the word "year(s)" is never used, although this would be the normal way someone would express himself.
I have a deadline to meet, so I'm not having much time, but I'll participate as time permits.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 03:54 PM

Quote:
R: Affirming that there will be a period of 3.5 years of persecution is just setting another date for Christ's coming - something we are warned not to do - for what should one expect at the end of such a period of persecution?

k: What date was set?

R: When the persecution does begin, the countdown would also begin.

So would you agree that no date has been set as of yet?
But, was it said that when this "countdown" begins, does Christ come right at the end at a specific date, which hasn't yet been set?


By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do. And that's not just because I disagree with him. Dishonesty or incompetence is an opinion which comes to my mind. I find it interesting that his comments along with one other has been presented as prove all and end all - end of discussion. Who is this Timm guy besides being from the Biblical Research Institute? Why isn't this discussed in our churches and evangelistic series?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.

I think spying was a problem, a lack of faith, and it is similar to, who killed Saul. Seems like I came across the spying issue before and may try to find it.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.


Actually, from the time of Moses, God had foreseen/planned for Israel to have a king and He always reserved the right for Him to be the one who would select it and set the regulations for that monarch. (Deut 17:14-20; cf. PP 603.1-605.1; PK 52.1-2). It was only Israel’s timing that was off, and as I understand it, GC wise see (here “Monarchy” Section), they were not yet Spiritually ready to be rule by a king, nor in a deserved position to need a king, in terms of kingdom expansion towards other accepting peoples/countries.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/11/11 08:55 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do. And that's not just because I disagree with him.


My challenge to all, and any, person who claims a future fulfillment of the time elements in time prophecies is to transparently and objectively (i.e., “unbiasedly”) show that EGW’s pointed “shown” revelations against this were wrong/not from God. (I.e., e.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) Otherwise, claiming that they are wrong by merely ‘figuring out a time in the future when they will be fulfilled’ is quite circularly illogical. (Indeed the reckoning of these time elements for current fulfillements would have to culminate in Christ immediate Return, which is why all claims involving past times have proven to be false.

Originally Posted By: kland
Dishonesty or incompetence is an opinion which comes to my mind. I find it interesting that his comments along with one other has been presented as prove all and end all - end of discussion.


By making such a claim, I think the onus and due responsibility is on you to show/“prove” why this is the case and substantiate your summary denunciation/decrying!

Originally Posted By: kland
Who is this Timm guy besides being from the Biblical Research Institute?


I don’t get the point of this question/objection!?? What else/more/other does he have to be than a Ph.D. Professor of Historical Theology Brazil Adventist University College - Campus 2; Director of the Brazilian Ellen G. White Research Center to address this issue??

[If this is faulting the apparent: ‘view of one person speaking for the whole Church, as it is customary in the SDA Church’s way of “individualistically” doing things, then I would agree that a wider consensus/collaboration/consultation should be transparently employed towards such Biblical interpretation/understanding issues. (Cf. this blog post)]

Originally Posted By: kland
Why isn't this discussed in our churches and evangelistic series?


My straightforward observation would be, as with other similar issues, that most SDA Pastors, Evangelists and other Church leaders, believe what EGW has said on this which is here supported by the GC’s BRI findings.

However, as documented on my blog (see e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]), Doug Batchelor who previously did not accept this view, presented his time chart for future time fulfillments on his TV broadcast. So clearly SDA Pastors have the full freedom to do this. They just don’t believe it is Biblical and so do not. Indeed for the same substantive reasons why they do not discuss/preach the Secret Rapture!

You can however, bring up this discussion in your local Church and see how it goes!!
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/12/11 12:18 AM

Quote:
So would you agree that no date has been set as of yet?

Indirectly, it has been set beforehand as 3.5 or 3.6 years after the beginning of the persecution, and when the persecution does begin, it will be definitely set.

Quote:
By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do.

Would you mind specifying the fallacies in his logic?

Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/12/11 11:38 PM

Click to reveal.. (NJK)

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: kland
By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do. And that's not just because I disagree with him.


My challenge to all, and any, person who claims a future fulfillment of the time elements in time prophecies is to transparently and objectively (i.e., “unbiasedly”) show that EGW’s pointed “shown” revelations against this were wrong/not from God. (I.e., e.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) Otherwise, claiming that they are wrong by merely ‘figuring out a time in the future when they will be fulfilled’ is quite circularly illogical. (Indeed the reckoning of these time elements for current fulfillements would have to culminate in Christ immediate Return, which is why all claims involving past times have proven to be false.

Originally Posted By: kland
Dishonesty or incompetence is an opinion which comes to my mind. I find it interesting that his comments along with one other has been presented as prove all and end all - end of discussion.


By making such a claim, I think the onus and due responsibility is on you to show/“prove” why this is the case and substantiate your summary denunciation/decrying!

Originally Posted By: kland
Who is this Timm guy besides being from the Biblical Research Institute?


I don’t get the point of this question/objection!?? What else/more/other does he have to be than a Ph.D. Professor of Historical Theology Brazil Adventist University College - Campus 2; Director of the Brazilian Ellen G. White Research Center to address this issue??

[If this is faulting the apparent: ‘view of one person speaking for the whole Church, as it is customary in the SDA Church’s way of “individualistically” doing things, then I would agree that a wider consensus/collaboration/consultation should be transparently employed towards such Biblical interpretation/understanding issues. (Cf. this blog post)]

Originally Posted By: kland
Why isn't this discussed in our churches and evangelistic series?


My straightforward observation would be, as with other similar issues, that most SDA Pastors, Evangelists and other Church leaders, believe what EGW has said on this which is here supported by the GC’s BRI findings.

However, as documented on my blog (see e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]), Doug Batchelor who previously did not accept this view, presented his time chart for future time fulfillments on his TV broadcast. So clearly SDA Pastors have the full freedom to do this. They just don’t believe it is Biblical and so do not. Indeed for the same substantive reasons why they do not discuss/preach the Secret Rapture!

You can however, bring up this discussion in your local Church and see how it goes!!


Quote:
[If this is faulting the apparent: ‘view of one person speaking for the whole Church, as it is customary in the SDA Church’s way of “individualistically” doing things, then I would agree that a wider consensus/collaboration/consultation should be transparently employed towards such Biblical interpretation/understanding issues.
Yes, I think that was what I was trying to say.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/12/11 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, I think that was what I was trying to say.


Do you “think” or are you sure?? If you are not certain, then how can/should I??! Again providing more substantively contextualizing/specifying/qualifying statements would have helped.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
k: So would you agree that no date has been set as of yet?

R: Indirectly, it has been set beforehand as 3.5 or 3.6 years after the beginning of the persecution, and when the persecution does begin, it will be definitely set.

True, but no one has set any date now, nor can be "accused" (falsely assumed or otherwise) of such. By the way, a date definitely set for what?

Quote:
k: By the way, I've have read Timm's arguments (if you could call them that) in the past. I'm sure you would find no fallacies with his logic. I do.

R: Would you mind specifying the fallacies in his logic?

I had made notes and have not located them. Then I was thinking if I thought it was so obvious that you should be able to see them, there should be no reason why I shouldn't be able to find them a second time. And I think I'm spotting more and more of them besides the ones I first found while quickly reading it. For instance:
Quote:
For instance, the vision of chapter 7 is described in verses 1-14, but the time related to it appears only in verse 25. In chapter 8, the body of the vision is related in verses 1-12, but the time appears only in verse 14. In a similar way, the prophetic time-periods related to the vision of chapter 11 are only mentioned in chapter 12.[12]
That makes logical sense. Whether one agrees with him or not, he is using a logical order here. One should be able to follow his progression.

Quote:
Such parallelism confirms that the 1,290 days and the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11, 12 share the same prophetic-apocalyptic nature of "a time, two times, and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 (RSV), and of the 2,300 "evenings and mornings" of Daniel 8:14(RSV). So, if we apply the year-day principle to the prophetic periods of Daniel 7 and 8, we should also apply it to the time-periods of Daniel 12, for all these time-periods are in someway interrelated between themselves, and the description of each vision points only to a single fulfillment of the prophetic time-period related to it.
Whoa! What happened to chapter 11? First he gets the reader saying yes, I suppose that makes sense, and then he makes a wild jump. Yes, he's making a comparison of one of the numbers which happen to appear in chapter 7 and then trying to tie chapter 11 in with it, but that comparison has nothing to do with the logic he just used.

If you still disagree, would "poorly written" be a better description?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.

I think spying was a problem, a lack of faith, and it is similar to, who killed Saul. Seems like I came across the spying issue before and may try to find it.


Not spying, but found a "numbering" issue:

Quote:
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Quote:
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
1Ch 21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

1Ch 21:7 ¶ And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
Sounds weird for God to "move" David to number Israel and then because they did, to "smite" them.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: kland
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.


Actually, from the time of Moses, God had foreseen/planned for Israel to have a king and He always reserved the right for Him to be the one who would select it and set the regulations for that monarch. (Deut 17:14-20; cf. PP 603.1-605.1; PK 52.1-2). It was only Israel’s timing that was off, and as I understand it, GC wise see (here “Monarchy” Section), they were not yet Spiritually ready to be rule by a king, nor in a deserved position to need a king, in terms of kingdom expansion towards other accepting peoples/countries.

Let me reword it then:

Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king at that time. However, He helped them select one at that time.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, I think that was what I was trying to say.


Do you “think” or are you sure?? If you are not certain, then how can/should I??! Again providing more substantively contextualizing/specifying/qualifying statements would have helped.
Maybe with all your substantively contextualizing/specifying/qualifying statements, I'm not really sure if what you're saying is what I'm saying. smile
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, I think that was what I was trying to say.

Do you “think” or are you sure?? If you are not certain, then how can/should I??! Again providing more substantively contextualizing/specifying/qualifying statements would have helped.

By the way kland, was is/was(?) your view/“conclusion” on Gerhard Pfandl’s BRI document on this issue? (He apparently was writing one year (2003) after Alberto Timm).
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 12:36 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Maybe with all your substantively contextualizing/specifying/qualifying statements, I'm not really sure if what you're saying is what I'm saying. smile

That’s why I had asked you to state more clearly what you meant in what you said. I aim to take every pertinent thing into consideration when considering an issue/making an answer and so I found your selective and unsubstantiated objection to, pointedly/exclusively Alberto Timm to have too many “loose ends”.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 01:19 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Good point NJK. I stand corrected. The spying was not the problem, it was the evil reports.
Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king. However, He helped them select one.

I think spying was a problem, a lack of faith, and it is similar to, who killed Saul. Seems like I came across the spying issue before and may try to find it.


Not spying, but found a "numbering" issue:

Quote:
2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Quote:
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
1Ch 21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

1Ch 21:7 ¶ And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
Sounds weird for God to "move" David to number Israel and then because they did, to "smite" them.


A succinct answer to this apparent contradiction based on some exegetical points is that in 2 Sam 24:1, the mention of the Devil is left out as the text actually says:

Originally Posted By: Bible 2Sa 24:1 (cf. in part NASB)
The anger of the LORD was caused to be added (Hiphil) for even a burning (infinitive construct) in Israel, when he (i.e., Satan (2 Chr 21:1)) incited/instigated David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


In other words, the later writers of 2 Chronicles specified the pointed “instigating” agent that had been left out (for whatever reason) in the prior 2 Samuel historical account.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 01:20 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Let me reword it then:

Something to consider is that it wasn't God's will for Israel to have a king at that time. However, He helped them select one at that time.


That is indeed more inline with the full teaching on the Bible in this regards, however with the issue of spying, I also more “fully” see that an issue of “pre-testing” Israel was being involved here. God already knew that they would not have been able to conquer that land except by His supernatural assistance. (Cf. Joshua 1:5-9, e.g., the Crossing of the Jordan (Jos 3), the fall of Jericho (1st conquest (Jos 6), etc). Indeed even the spying of Jericho (Jos 2) seemed to be completely unnecessary, given the miraculous way in which it was going to be made to fall, but another test to see if these spies and Israel had learned their lesson by then.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/13/11 08:11 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


Some further internet searching has answered my questions here:

Obviously His Child/Henry Hills believes that Barack Obama is the antichrist and that his full name, through some creative arbitrary convolution fulfills the 666 ‘number of his name’ claim. Wow!!! to say the least. (Hear these (what I consider) unbiblical teachings and much more in this radio interview ca. 37:20ff. (See also this one). The convoluted conjecture of a supposed reversed Alpha and Omega to make Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II be four kings of Daniel is really creative!

-By the way the link to the Youtube clip was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBxmDkhOXNE

For “distinguishing” clarification, my understanding of the possible refulfillment of prophecies involved a spiritual deepening/involvement of the prior literal fulfillments and not to an complete new and distinct identification. That first occurred between the Local Fulfillments and then the Historical ones, and now with Historical Ones and the current and future Eschatological Ones.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/20/11 01:38 AM

It is my understanding that the time prophecies do not have a dual application and are also not conditional prophecies.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/20/11 02:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
It is my understanding that the time prophecies do not have a dual application and are also not conditional prophecies.


As I see it, it is only the time element parts of a prophecy that cannot have a post 1844 application, however I see that they could have been literally, i.e., non-symbolically, fulfilled prior to the Historical ages for God’s New Covenant Israel. (ca. 90 A.D. to 1844 A.D.)

And as I also see it, any prophecies that can be fulfilled it conditional on the response on the ground which is actually needed to fulfill it. E.g. as seen with the calling refusals of God’s initial SOP “elections” Hazen Foss, then William Foy, if William Miller and then others had refused to peach the Second Advent Message, it would have been frustrated, and that because no one would actually have believed in it. But God expects on having, at the very least, a faithful remnant, even if He has to use a more striking “sign”, (e.g., vs. Millers’ immediate prayer answering, sermon preaching request), and make a relatively justified personal appearance to call a person, as God sovereignly can. (Yet I theologically understand that this is not with its GC price as when/if God does this, then the Devil is entitled to using a similarly more striking method to influence people to be his agent of deception in the world.)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/20/11 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction Christ said, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This prophecy will again be fulfilled. The abounding iniquity of that day finds its counterpart in this generation. So with the prediction in regard to the preaching of the gospel. Before the fall of Jerusalem, Paul, writing by the Holy Spirit, declared that the gospel was preached to "every creature which is under heaven." Colossians 1:23. So now, before the coming of the Son of man, the everlasting gospel is to be preached "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." Revelation 14:6, 14. God "hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world." Acts 17:31. Christ tells us when that day shall be ushered in. He does not say that all the world will be converted, but that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return. We are not only to look for but to hasten the coming of the day of God. 2 Peter 3:12, margin. Had the church of Christ done her appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would before this have been warned, and the Lord Jesus would have come to our earth in power and great glory. {DA 633.3}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible scene was but a faint shadow. The second advent of the Son of God is foretold by lips which make no mistake: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.] {4SP 37.1}

These lessons are for our benefit. We need to stay our faith upon God, for there is just before us a time that will try men's souls. Christ, upon the Mount of Olives, rehearsed the fearful judgments that were to precede His second coming: "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars." "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." While these prophecies received a partial fulfillment at the destruction of Jerusalem, they have a more direct application to the last days. {5T 753.1}


The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was a time prophecy first given by Ezekiel and reiterated by Jesus Himself. As a time prophecy, Ellen White recognizes a dual fulfillment of it for the time of Jerusalem's visitation in 70 AD and for our time.

If dual fulfillments are shown to occur for one prophecy, such as this one, how can one make a blanket statement regarding all time prophecies that they cannot have dual fulfillment?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/20/11 07:54 PM

GC, did Ellen say Ezekiel recorded a time prophecy that pin-pointed the day Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/20/11 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, did Ellen say Ezekiel recorded a time prophecy that pin-pointed the day Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD?
No, she sure didn't. She said absolutely nothing about the prophecy, except to use the day-for-year formula out of it for other prophecies in the Book.

But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself. (And Ellen White DOES comment on that one.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 12:27 AM

Quote:
But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't say when this would happen, either.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 01:08 AM

I don't see this as a time prophecy in the same sense as I see the time prophecies of the 70 weeks, 1260 days, 2300 days, etc.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction Christ said, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This prophecy will again be fulfilled. The abounding iniquity of that day finds its counterpart in this generation. So with the prediction in regard to the preaching of the gospel. Before the fall of Jerusalem, Paul, writing by the Holy Spirit, declared that the gospel was preached to "every creature which is under heaven." Colossians 1:23. So now, before the coming of the Son of man, the everlasting gospel is to be preached "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." Revelation 14:6, 14. God "hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world." Acts 17:31. Christ tells us when that day shall be ushered in. He does not say that all the world will be converted, but that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return. We are not only to look for but to hasten the coming of the day of God. 2 Peter 3:12, margin. Had the church of Christ done her appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would before this have been warned, and the Lord Jesus would have come to our earth in power and great glory. {DA 633.3}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible scene was but a faint shadow. The second advent of the Son of God is foretold by lips which make no mistake: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.] {4SP 37.1}

These lessons are for our benefit. We need to stay our faith upon God, for there is just before us a time that will try men's souls. Christ, upon the Mount of Olives, rehearsed the fearful judgments that were to precede His second coming: "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars." "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." While these prophecies received a partial fulfillment at the destruction of Jerusalem, they have a more direct application to the last days. {5T 753.1}


The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was a time prophecy first given by Ezekiel and reiterated by Jesus Himself. As a time prophecy, Ellen White recognizes a dual fulfillment of it for the time of Jerusalem's visitation in 70 AD and for our time.

If dual fulfillments are shown to occur for one prophecy, such as this one, how can one make a blanket statement regarding all time prophecies that they cannot have dual fulfillment?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 01:32 AM

Quote:
Green Cochoa: But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself.

Rosangela: As far as I know, Jesus didn't say when this would happen, either.


I agree. Indeed Jesus does not set a specific time for that event. As I see it He only generally spoke of a limiting range of time by which it should/surely would completely occur. As I had posted earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted By: NJK Project #133023
In regards to 70 A.D., Jesus never said that the destruction would/should take place in exactly 40 years after his death (which would actually be 71 A.D.) That is just what is commonly assumed. What Jesus said in Mark 13:30 was that the generation of people listening to him then, especially the ones (i.e., the knowledgeable adults) who were rejecting Him (cf. Luke 17:25) would not die before what He had said would be fulfilled. If that “generation” is considered to start from people aged 20, and life expectancy was ca. 70-80 years (Psa 90:10a), then Christ was here seeing ca. 81-91 A.D. as the limits.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't say when this would happen, either.


Jesus did, but in a manner which was typical for Him...that is, the style in which "he that hath an ear, let him hear" applies.

First, here is what Jesus said:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Matthew
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to show him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
...
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
...
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Next, how long is a Biblical generation:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed. (Numbers 32:13)


Forty years is a generation. We find supporting texts for this same principle elsewhere as well.

Notice how in the following, it takes well nigh forty years for the men of war to die out. (One was not a "man" until the age of 20, Biblically.)
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, [was] thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them. (Deuteronomy 2:14)


Even David alludes to the "generation" which would follow Jesus' crucifixion.
Originally Posted By: The Bible

Psalms
22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
...
22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
22:28 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations.
22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.


More "forties"...
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. (Psalm 95:10)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (Acts 13:36) {see also text below}

David [was] thirty years old when he began to reign, [and] he reigned forty years. (2 Samuel 5:4)


Summing it all up, we have the following:

1) A generation is 40 years.
2) Jesus spoke of the temple's destruction.
3) The disciples asked when it would happen.
4) Jesus said the current generation would not pass before it was fulfilled.

The disciples asked no more. They knew what was meant.

Mrs. White speaks of this as well.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Christ gave His disciples a sign of the ruin to come on Jerusalem, and He told them how to escape: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." This warning was given to be heeded forty years after, at the destruction of Jerusalem. The Christians obeyed the warning, and not a Christian perished in the fall of the city. {DA 630.3}
"Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter; neither on the Sabbath day," Christ said. He who made the Sabbath did not abolish it, nailing it to His cross. The Sabbath was not rendered null and void by His death. Forty years after His crucifixion it was still to be held sacred. For forty years the disciples were to pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath day. {DA 630.4}


And in the following, it is clear that Jesus' prophecy concerning Jerusalem was to have a dual application with the end-times. So parallel were the two fulfillments, that the prophetic details are intermingled in His words as recorded in those chapters (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke all recorded this).

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the attention of the rejected One was called to the magnificence of the temple, what must have been his thoughts! The view before him was indeed beautiful; but he said, sadly: I see it all, and the buildings are indeed wonderful. You point to these stones as apparently indestructible, but listen to my words. I tell you solemnly that the day will come when there shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down. Forty years after Christ uttered this prediction, his words were fulfilled to the letter. In the siege of Jerusalem it is stated that more than a million people perished, and that many were led into captivity. {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 12}
Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of people; but when he was again alone, Peter, James, John, and Andrew came to him, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 13}
In his answer, Jesus did not take up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the last great day of his coming. He mingled the description of these two events. When he spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem, his words referred also to the final destruction that will take place when the Lord rises out of his place to punish the world for its iniquity. The entire chapter in which are recorded Christ's words regarding this, is a warning to all who shall live during the last scenes of this earth's history. {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 14}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 03:01 AM

GC,

If a generation is 40 years, how is it that Joseph "saw Ephraim’s children to the third generation," if he lived only 110 years (Gen. 50:16)?

Quote:
Next, how long is a Biblical generation:

And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed. (Numbers 32:13)

It is not said that 40 years is the length of a generation. If they had been 20+ years old when they left Egypt, a generation would be 60+ years, not 40 years. The duration of a generation would be the expected lifespan of the people of that generation. Or the expected age at which people beget children. But 40 years is what?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 03:26 AM

Rosangela,

As with many words in English or in any language, the word "generation" in the Bible has more than one sense. For example, when generations are numbered, like in the Ten Commandments, they refer to simply the children. "Unto the third and fourth generation" has nothing to do with the number of years.

We do the same thing in English today. When we speak of "this generation," or even "the next generation," we refer to a period of time, or an age. Conversely, when we use the word "generation" to refer to children, such as a "four-generation family photo," we do not refer to an age, or to any particular passage of time, only to the family relationship of parents and children.

Clearly, the Bible has both of these same senses to the word "generation" as we have in modern English.

In the sense of an age, the Bible's definition for "generation" is a 40-year period. In the other sense, there is no way the Bible could force parents to become parents at no other age than that of forty! Of course, parents, like Joseph, who saw to the third and fourth generation of their children may not have needed to be 160 years old. smile

Regarding the children of Israel leaving Egypt and later entering Canaan, the "generation" which died in the wilderness included only those (and possibly specifically the men) who were 20 and above at the time of the Exodus. Clearly, if everyone of them exiting Egypt had died in the wilderness, there would have been few left to enter Canaan. Caleb and Joshua were the only two men who were above 20 at the Exodus who yet entered the Promised Land. Adding 20 and forty gives us 60, the maximum age for those who were 20 at the time of the Exodus. If one had been 60 already, I suppose they could have reached 100 theoretically, though this is unlikely to have occurred. Regardless, the "generation" comprised a period of time equalling 40 years, and had little or nothing to do with actual begetting of children while in the wilderness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 04:23 AM

GC, a generation refers to all the people born more or less at the same point in time. This is the meaning in all the passages the word is used in the Bible.
David served his generation (all the people who were born more or less at the same point in time as he) for 40 years. It could be 20, or 30, or 50. This doesn't matter.
The generation who came out of Egypt was in the wilderness for 40 years. Note that the Bible doesn't say that they spent one generation in the wilderness, but that that generation spent 40 years in the wilderness. It's a big difference.
Now I'm going to sleep. Happy sabbath!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 06:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
GC, a generation refers to all the people born more or less at the same point in time. This is the meaning in all the passages the word is used in the Bible.
David served his generation (all the people who were born more or less at the same point in time as he) for 40 years. It could be 20, or 30, or 50. This doesn't matter.
The generation who came out of Egypt was in the wilderness for 40 years. Note that the Bible doesn't say that they spent one generation in the wilderness, but that that generation spent 40 years in the wilderness. It's a big difference.
Now I'm going to sleep. Happy sabbath!


I partly agree with that, Rosangela. The difference I would make is that the Bible sees a "generation," referring to a particular "group" of people, as you put it "born more or less at the same point in time," as comprising a period of forty years. Nowadays, a generation might be 20 or even approaching a mere decade! Here's an interesting list of them I found online:
Quote:
This is a listing of recent generations for individuals born in the United States. Dates are approximate, as recognized by demographers.
(ongoing) 2000/2001-Present - New Silent Generation or Generation Z
(20 years) 1980-2000 - Millennials or Generation Y
(14 years) 1965-1979 - Generation X
(18 years) 1946-1964 - Baby Boom
(20 years) 1925-1945 - Silent Generation
(24 years) 1900-1924 - G.I. Generation
The Population Reference Bureau provides an alternate listing and chronology of generational names in the United States.
(18 years) 1983-2001 - New Boomers
(17 years) 1965-1982 - Generation X
(18 years) 1946-1964 - Baby Boomers
(16 years) 1929-1945 - Lucky Few
(19 years) 1909-1928 - Good Warriors
(18 years) 1890-1908 - Hard Timers
(18 years) 1871-1889 - New Worlders

[Green portions are my own additions.]

The lowest here seems to have been 14 years, and the avg. ~18. But in the Bible, a generation was considered to be 40 years.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 05:17 PM

GC, thank you for the lesson on the term "generation". Very interesting. Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." He named several things that would be fulfilled before the "generation" He was addressing passed.

For example, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Is it safe to say these details of the prophecy were fulfilled by 70 AD? Is not the "great tribulation" yet future? And, didn't the dark day and blood moon and falling stars events happen in 1780 and 1833? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Prophecy not only foretells the manner and object of Christ's coming, but presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near. Said Jesus: "There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars." Luke 21:25. "The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:24-26. The revelator thus describes the first of the signs to precede the second advent: "There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood." Revelation 6:12. {GC 304.1}

These signs were witnessed before the opening of the nineteenth century. In fulfillment of this prophecy there occurred, in the year 1755, the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded. Though commonly known as the earthquake of Lisbon, it extended to the greater part of Europe, Africa, and America. {GC 304.2}

Twenty-five years later appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy--the darkening of the sun and moon. What rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out. In the Saviour's conversation with His disciples upon Olivet, after describing the long period of trial for the church,--the 1260 years of papal persecution, concerning which He had promised that the tribulation should be shortened,--He thus mentioned certain events to precede His coming, and fixed the time when the first of these should be witnessed: "In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light." Mark 13:24. The 1260 days, or years, terminated in 1798. A quarter of a century earlier, persecution had almost wholly ceased. Following this persecution, according to the words of Christ, the sun was to be darkened. On the 19th of May, 1780, this prophecy was fulfilled. {GC 306.1}

May 19, 1780, stands in history as "The Dark Day." Since the time of Moses no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration, has ever been recorded. The description of this event, as given by eyewitnesses, is but an echo of the words of the Lord, recorded by the prophet Joel, twenty-five hundred years previous to their fulfillment: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31. {GC 308.1}

In 1833, two years after Miller began to present in public the evidences of Christ's soon coming, the last of the signs appeared which were promised by the Saviour as tokens of His second advent. Said Jesus: "The stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29. And John in the Revelation declared, as he beheld in vision the scenes that should herald the day of God: "The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Revelation 6:13. This prophecy received a striking and impressive fulfillment in the great meteoric shower of November 13, 1833. {GC 333.1}

Thus was displayed the last of those signs of His coming, concerning which Jesus bade His disciples: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Matthew 24:33. After these signs, John beheld, as the great event next impending, the heavens departing as a scroll, while the earth quaked, mountains and islands removed out of their places, and the wicked in terror sought to flee from the presence of the Son of man. Revelation 6:12-17. {GC 334.2}

Perhaps "this generation" refers to Christianity? That is, Christianity "shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 07:00 PM

Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.

The other principle I've mentioned is Miller's rule that a prohecy isn't fully fulfilled until all of it's particulars are met. That explains the obscure statements by Ellen White where she has no difficulty in placing the trumpets and seals in the future.

If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment. Take Revelation 11 for example. The measuring message given to John is for the disappointed Millerite believers to rise and proclaim the three angel's messages. They are to be God's two witnesses, proclaiming the judgment of the living. Now, Ellen White endorsed the view that Rev 11 applied to the French Revelution. But in another place she applied Revelation 11 to the future. (I think I may have posted that quote at the beginning of the thread. But, I'll start a new thread on Rev 11 and other passages: "Where in Scripture is the Judgment of the Living?")
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment.

Did the clock stopped ticking? Seems to me events associated with prophecies beginning in the late 1700's are still in the process of fulfilling.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 08:50 PM

Quote:
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.

Mark, as I said, in Num. 14:34, 40 days is the prophecy and 40 years, the fulfillment. The same is true in Ezek. 4. 390/40 days is the prophecy and 390/40 years is the fulfillment. There is no inversion.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/21/11 08:54 PM

Quote:
I partly agree with that, Rosangela. The difference I would make is that the Bible sees a "generation," referring to a particular "group" of people, as you put it "born more or less at the same point in time," as comprising a period of forty years.

GC, and where does the Bible says that? Certainly not in the passages you mentioned.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 12:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
I partly agree with that, Rosangela. The difference I would make is that the Bible sees a "generation," referring to a particular "group" of people, as you put it "born more or less at the same point in time," as comprising a period of forty years.

GC, and where does the Bible says that? Certainly not in the passages you mentioned.


Rosangela, the Bible doesn't "say" everything that it teaches. Where does the Bible "say" that light represents truth? God has given us intelligence to understand some of what is not directly or explicitly stated. Jesus spoke in parables for this same reason. Jesus never directly answered some of the questions He was asked, yet there was enough in His response for us to infer the correct truth that He was teaching.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 02:30 AM

GC, thank you for the lesson on the term "generation". Very interesting. Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." He named several things that would be fulfilled before the "generation" He was addressing passed.

For example, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Is it safe to say these details of the prophecy were fulfilled by 70 AD? Is not the "great tribulation" yet future? And, didn't the dark day and blood moon and falling stars events happen in 1780 and 1833? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Prophecy not only foretells the manner and object of Christ's coming, but presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near. Said Jesus: "There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars." Luke 21:25. "The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:24-26. The revelator thus describes the first of the signs to precede the second advent: "There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood." Revelation 6:12. {GC 304.1}

These signs were witnessed before the opening of the nineteenth century. In fulfillment of this prophecy there occurred, in the year 1755, the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded. Though commonly known as the earthquake of Lisbon, it extended to the greater part of Europe, Africa, and America. {GC 304.2}

Twenty-five years later appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy--the darkening of the sun and moon. What rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out. In the Saviour's conversation with His disciples upon Olivet, after describing the long period of trial for the church,--the 1260 years of papal persecution, concerning which He had promised that the tribulation should be shortened,--He thus mentioned certain events to precede His coming, and fixed the time when the first of these should be witnessed: "In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light." Mark 13:24. The 1260 days, or years, terminated in 1798. A quarter of a century earlier, persecution had almost wholly ceased. Following this persecution, according to the words of Christ, the sun was to be darkened. On the 19th of May, 1780, this prophecy was fulfilled. {GC 306.1}

May 19, 1780, stands in history as "The Dark Day." Since the time of Moses no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration, has ever been recorded. The description of this event, as given by eyewitnesses, is but an echo of the words of the Lord, recorded by the prophet Joel, twenty-five hundred years previous to their fulfillment: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31. {GC 308.1}

In 1833, two years after Miller began to present in public the evidences of Christ's soon coming, the last of the signs appeared which were promised by the Saviour as tokens of His second advent. Said Jesus: "The stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29. And John in the Revelation declared, as he beheld in vision the scenes that should herald the day of God: "The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Revelation 6:13. This prophecy received a striking and impressive fulfillment in the great meteoric shower of November 13, 1833. {GC 333.1}

Thus was displayed the last of those signs of His coming, concerning which Jesus bade His disciples: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Matthew 24:33. After these signs, John beheld, as the great event next impending, the heavens departing as a scroll, while the earth quaked, mountains and islands removed out of their places, and the wicked in terror sought to flee from the presence of the Son of man. Revelation 6:12-17. {GC 334.2}

Perhaps "this generation" refers to Christianity? That is, Christianity "shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 02:54 AM

Mike,

There are other potential senses to the word "generation" than that which I have heretofore given. For example, in the following passage, I might read one of two things, neither of them so far addressed.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created." God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}


In terms of creation's prophecy, each of those "generations" would be seen as a period of 1000 years. Mrs. White was not aware of this prophecy, however, and so cannot be expected to have seen that connection. It is a case of dual application. She applies it to a single day, also a legitimate application. But most people today would not look upon a single day as a "generation."

The point I'm making is that context is necessary when studying a passage. There are some general principles and points to watch for when studying, but one cannot make absolute statements or definitions which would always apply to every case.

Jesus' prophecy as recorded in Matthew 24 was two-fold, and just like the two-fold prophecy of Ezekiel 4 (one part for Judah, one part for Israel), there are some parts of the prophecy that apply equally to both (like the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in the Ezekiel prophecy) and some parts which are tailored more to one group or the other. Not all of the statements in Matthew 24 were to be applied to AD 70, nor do all of them necessarily apply to our time. There are portions, however, which certainly did apply to both, and Mrs. White speaks of this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.


The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly “told/showed” to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela’s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic ‘(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.’ (=Isa 8:20).

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The other principle I've mentioned is Miller's rule that a prohecy isn't fully fulfilled until all of it's particulars are met. That explains the obscure statements by Ellen White where she has no difficulty in placing the trumpets and seals in the future.


Just because William Miller made a statement, it does not mean it is the Truth/“Rule”, Case in point, he did not believe in the Seventh-Month (October 22, 1844) movement. It is the Bible that determines what is truth and what are valid hermeneutical principles/“rule”.

I Biblically believe that prophecies are all conditional in what will or will not be fulfilled in what they have stated. That also applies to having some parts of a prophecy be literally fulfilled and other parts only spiritually. (cf. Isa 55:10, 11). So as I also Theologically see/understand that God in His wisdom “foresaw” that things would go the distance, in terms of prophetic development, though the end could have occurred many times before, indeed starting with the ca. 70-90 A.D. Local/Literal Fulfillment wave, I therefore see and understand that God will continue to guide those who are faithful in doing His will in paths that will be in accordance to the Spiritual and Prophetic intent of Bible prophecies, indeed in some applicable way, re-fulfilling some, as the actual current circumstances demand it. That is how I understand prophecies will (continue to) be refulfilled in this current Eschatological Wave of Fulfillments. Indeed prophecies don’t necessarily have to all be refulfilled in this current Wave, but probably will eventually all be in some applicable form, with God’s wise (prophetic) word indeed finding a pertinent application with all generations of true believers until the end. (Indeed as with the Bible derived prophecies given through the SOP).

I see that EGW began to concretely, if not initially, realize that time would continue beyond her day, starting in the fall/winter of 1908, (cf. in this post).

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment. Take Revelation 11 for example. The measuring message given to John is for the disappointed Millerite believers to rise and proclaim the three angel's messages. They are to be God's two witnesses, proclaiming the judgment of the living. Now, Ellen White endorsed the view that Rev 11 applied to the French Revelation. But in another place she applied Revelation 11 to the future. (I think I may have posted that quote at the beginning of the thread. But, I'll start a new thread on Rev 11 and other passages: "Where in Scripture is the Judgment of the Living?")


Interesting point here. Since June 2000, I have presented (via emails) a Biblical study showing that the Two Witnesses prophecy of Rev 11 indeed had a current, and entirely “judgement of the SDA Church’ application. (See this message here It continues to be updated.) (I was invited then by Daryl F, who had received one of those emails, to post that study in this forum, but did not take up that offer). So I do agree with your general “judgement fulfillment” view here, however, as shown in my exposition, I, following the SOP’s clear counsel, do not literally apply/reckon any of the time elements mentioned in that prophecy, but only Spiritually use them as indicators of what type of fulfillment is to be expected based on how those time elements have been fullfilled during Church History, i.e., 90-1844 A.D.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 07:36 AM

Quote:
Mark: If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment.

MM: Did the clock stopped ticking? Seems to me events associated with prophecies beginning in the late 1700's are still in the process of fulfilling.


That is indeed the operative question. And succinctly stated here from the more detailed explanation here, I Biblically-Theologically-Spiritually-Prophetically-Experientially (indeed in that order of discovery/ascertainment), believe that the residual Historical Age ended in ca. 1996 and since then, the current Full Eschatological Age/Wave, which involves a re-fullfillement of prophecies (-time) began. In this regard, I see that the SOP is being, and will more fully be, Spiritually reapplied, in the same way, and indeed for the same reasons, as the OT prophecies given to Israel had to be postponed and spiritually reapplied during and throughout the NT Israel era.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.


The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly &#147;told/showed&#148; to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela&#146;s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic &#145;(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.&#146; (=Isa 8:20).


NJK,

Look more carefully at Mrs. White's statements relative to times after 1844. It may be that Mark sees something that you do not see. Her statements seem clear relative to time and 1844, I agree with that. But what exactly do they address?

It is my understanding based on rather extensive reading of those statements of hers that the following two points are true of all of the "prophetic time is no more" type statements which she makes:

1) She specifies this always for prophecies upon "definite time;" and
2) She is speaking always in terms of "second advent" prophecies.

In other words, the "prophetic time is no more after 1844" only applies to time prophecies which have a "definite time" (such as the Oct. 22, 1844 date had), and also to prophecies which would seek to predict Jesus' coming (as the Oct. 22, 1844 date did). After that date, there were to be no more such prophecies. In other words, the Oct. 22 date for the second coming was ordained to be preached by God, who even held His hand over a mistake in Miller's figures, but that was to be the last such prophecy upon "definite time" which would seek to predict the Lord's coming.

This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." He named several things that would be fulfilled before the "generation" He was addressing passed. For example, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." Is it safe to say these details of the prophecy were fulfilled by 70 AD? Is not the "great tribulation" yet future? And, didn't the dark day and blood moon and falling stars events happen in 1780 and 1833? Perhaps "this generation" refers to Christianity? That is, Christianity "shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."

GC: Jesus' prophecy as recorded in Matthew 24 was two-fold, and just like the two-fold prophecy of Ezekiel 4 (one part for Judah, one part for Israel), there are some parts of the prophecy that apply equally to both (like the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in the Ezekiel prophecy) and some parts which are tailored more to one group or the other. Not all of the statements in Matthew 24 were to be applied to AD 70, nor do all of them necessarily apply to our time. There are portions, however, which certainly did apply to both, and Mrs. White speaks of this.

Maybe. However, if we translate "this generation" to mean the Christian Age we are not forced to interpret "all these things" to exclude such prominent aspects of Jesus' prophecy as the great tribulation and the dark day/blood moon and falling stars events from our 70 AD fulfillment model. Nor would it force us to reject the dual application principle of certain aspects of Jesus' prophecy in relation to both 70 AD and the final crisis.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 09:04 PM


Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
...It may be that Mark sees something that you do not see.


Hence my repeated request to him to state his reasons in regards to those SOP quotes. Yet so far no answer to those questions. Is it (to be) “Classified”/a “State’s Secret”??! I would let Mark speak for himself here.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Look more carefully at Mrs. White's statements relative to times after 1844. ... Her statements seem clear relative to time and 1844, I agree with that. But what exactly do they address?

It is my understanding based on rather extensive reading of those statements of hers that the following two points are true of all of the "prophetic time is no more" type statements which she makes:

1) She specifies this always for prophecies upon "definite time;" and
2) She is speaking always in terms of "second advent" prophecies.

In other words, the "prophetic time is no more after 1844" only applies to time prophecies which have a "definite time" (such as the Oct. 22, 1844 date had), and also to prophecies which would seek to predict Jesus' coming (as the Oct. 22, 1844 date did). After that date, there were to be no more such prophecies. In other words, the Oct. 22 date for the second coming was ordained to be preached by God, who even held His hand over a mistake in Miller's figures, but that was to be the last such prophecy upon "definite time" which would seek to predict the Lord's coming.

This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.


I have presently indeed looked at EGW’s statement “more carefully,” and as due, collectively, so as not to isolatively take one statement of hers to make her say/mean something that she never meant. The question is did you?? I.e, Properly/closely/“carefully”. It indeed seems even more clear to me that your view, and the ones claiming future time fulfillments are actually, even outrightly (i.e, without any plausible valid support), a “private” one(s). Just for the transparent record here are some, (i.e., those that do not solely speak of not setting a time for Christ’s return itself. (E.g, 10MR 272.1 (1891)).:

Originally Posted By: SOP 2 SM 73.2 (1885) = {LDE 35.3}
I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.


I don’t know if there is a record of what those “fanatics” were teaching, i.e, what time prophecies they were using to make their “close of probation” claims, but it seems intuitively/thematically logical to me that these were the Dan 12 time elements of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days (Dan 12:1ff, 7b, 11, 12). As these times are variously restated in the prophecies of Revelation, particularly the 1260 days, then the future application of those times seems to also be inclusively covered by EGW. And as the Daniel 12 times are the ones most directly linked to a “close of probation” notion, if EGW was not speaking of those, but other times that this group was using, i.e., anytime in the book of Revelation, then it goes without saying that she did indeed condemn their use to figure out when probation will close.

Originally Posted By: SOP 10MR 270.1 (1888) = {LDE 36.1}
Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.


I see that this ‘no intervening time’ statement (= 1844-1884ff-Second Coming) completely invalidates your: “indefinite time” and ‘not pointing to Jesus' coming times’ theories. Indeed she is clear that there are to be ‘no more “times reckoning” of any kind, and at all in/during the intervening time since after “the close of the prophetic periods in 1844”’. So it therefore seems to me that she was here pointedly addressing this type of argument that you are making.

Indeed this ‘no intervening time’ statement thus voids an/(your apparent) understanding that she meant in the rest of 10MR 270.1:
Originally Posted By: SOP 10MR 270.1 (1888)
We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door.

that “prophetic reckoning” involved ‘other shorter times’, as also seen her other statements below, Her“the” definite and singular reference here shows that she was “yet”/still referring to “the prophetic reckoning” of the 2300 days to make this ‘near the end’ statement.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: SOP 7BC 971.7 (1900) = {cf. LDE 36.2}
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


The range of time of “1842-1844" includes the time prophecy that found a fulfillment within it, namely the 1335 days, which I see as the time when probation could indeed have closed, a year before the 1844 possible end. (Candid circumstances ‘on the ground’ just didn’t make it be able to be the case. Indeed William Miller’s mistake should have led people to be fully ready by the initial mistaken date of/in 1843.). Only the 2300 days (‘the longest of those times’) ended in what was priorly believed to be the date for the Second Coming. This would be the only time that fits your theory criteria.

It seems to me that she indeed includes more than one time prophecy in this category of ‘“prophetic time which should precede the advent of our Lord”. Also her use of “precede” here implies to me any time which would not necessarily culminate in the very end such as the 1335 days.

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 22, 1892 par. 7
Let every one who claims to believe that the Lord is soon coming, search the Scriptures as never before; for Satan is determined to try every device possible to keep souls in darkness, and blind the mind to the perils of the times in which we are living. Let every believer take up his Bible with earnest prayer, that he may be enlightened by the holy Spirit as to what is truth, that he may know more of God and of Jesus Christ whom he has sent. Search for the truth as for hidden treasures, and disappoint the enemy. The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth. For it is the work of every one to whom the message of warning has come, to lift up Jesus, to present him to the world as revealed in types, as shadowed in symbols, as manifested in the revelations of the prophets, as unveiled in the lessons given to his disciples and in the wonderful miracles wrought for the sons of men. Search the Scriptures; for they are they that testify of him.


Some today use time calculations to say when the Loud Cry, which occurs after the Sealing, would begin, however EGW here saw in 1892 that it had already begun, and as she believed since some time soon after 1844, without any prophetic time reckoning involved/contributing to this knowledge. Indeed, as she understood, those Final Events will only occur (or in her case begin to occur) when the work regard them begins to be done. In her case, this was begun to be done with the 1888 message/revival, however when things changed later on with the Church, God had to halt and postpone that possible fulfillement of the End/Second Coming. (Cf. DA 633.3; LDE 38.2)

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12
The Lord showed me that Time had not been a test since 1844, and that time will never again be a test.


In regards pointedly to the assumption in your theory, if “(prophetic) time” had been (i.e., 1850) and was to ever again be, a test since (Oct. 22) 1844, then it would mean that shorter times, than the only applicable 2300 day prophecy would have to be involved. So in this statement, EGW was included all other lesser time periods. Also surely she would not have a view that the 2300 days were to be literally fulfilled, i.e., in ca. 6 years 3 months and 20 days, and with another ‘sanctuary cleansing’ event. (Dan 8:14). Indeed, as time literal time reckoning for the 2300 since October 22, 1844 would only first have a ending fulfillment in ca. February 11, 1851, then she was evidently blanketly including all lesser time reckonings in/with this statement, which was actually God’s own statement, and thus the injunctively, God-Stipulated Hermeneutic Rule for post-1844 believers, as that entire vision of hers correctively was.

Originally Posted By: SOP 2 SM 73.2 (1885)
I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844; and that I knew that this message, which four or five were engaged in advocating with great zeal, was heresy. The visions of this poor child were not of God. This light came not from heaven. Time was short; but the end was not yet. A great work was to be accomplished to prepare a people to be sealed with the seal of the living God.--An Exposure of Fanaticism and Wickedness (Pamphlet), pp. 9, 10 (1885)


The same sequitur/straightforward logic as just above applies for this quote as EGW is manifestly not conversely saying nor implying that ‘there will only not be no “literal 2300-day (=6.3 years)” definite time in the message given of God since 1844.’
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Maybe. However, if we translate "this generation" to mean the Christian Age we are not forced to interpret "all these things" to exclude such prominent aspects of Jesus' prophecy as the great tribulation and the dark day/blood moon and falling stars events from our 70 AD fulfillment model. Nor would it force us to reject the dual application principle of certain aspects of Jesus' prophecy in relation to both 70 AD and the final crisis.


My foundational exegetical method/approach is to let the text naturally speak for itself, and derive straightforward theological understanding/implications from it. That is why I straightforwardly see that Jesus fully intended the full end by ca. A.D. 90 with “that generation” (cf. Psa 95:10 (LXX) same Greek word as in Matt 24:34; cf. Matt 23:36) alive then, and therefore, as this did not occur as He said under inspiration, I then theologically seek to find why not. Succinctly said, this fit perfectly in my Foreplanning View of God and the Future, (also discussed in this forum) where His “prophetic plans” still depend on the obedient cooperation of particularly His professed people to be timely and (literally) fully fulfilled. (That is how I also come to theologically understand Christ’s failed statement/“prophecy” in Matt 10:23.)

That is indeed the Theological story with/for God’s prophecies given to and for ancient Israel. Indeed in the episode of Num 14, it is seen that because of the “sudden and unforeseen” (cf. Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29) rebellion of ‘the generation of adults’ (Psa 95:10) that came out of Egypt, God could not fulfill His Word of Promise (= Prophecy) to them (Psa 95:11; Num 14:35). Indeed, as Paul understood, this was, and still is, an enduring Divine principle and condition for (anti-typical) fulfillment (Heb 3:7-4:3).
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/22/11 11:42 PM

NJK, I do not believe Jesus intended for His words in Matthew 24 to mean He originally envisioned returning by 90 AD.

Nor do I believe His words in Mat 10:23 failed to be fulfilled. They are still fulfilling, and will continue fulfilling until the moment He says, "It is finished", at which point everyone will have made their final choice for or against the seal of God.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/23/11 01:08 AM

As I stated above, I, for substantive reasons, Biblically and Theologically believe otherwise. It is clear to me, in harmony with many other such instances in the Bible, that transpired conditioned caused a change in what had been planned and indeed could/should have (potentially) occurred. Indeed just like, as EGW saw, the Second Coming could/should have occurred in her time.

By the way, my 90 A.D. view was explained in some detail earlier in this thread Post #133055. More corroborating details can be found in this blog post in relation to the discussion on the Rev. 5 “Prophetic/History Continuance Crisis” of ca. 70 A.D. or later.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/24/11 10:47 AM

A couple more explicitly stated and commented statements of EGW on ‘the end of all/any prophetic time’:

Originally Posted By: SOP 6MR 251.2 {1850}
Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman, Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged.


As these 1335 days (Dan 12:12) ended in 1843, and not on October 22, 1844, it showed that in this 1850 statement, EGW did not have a view that such ‘other than the 2300-day time elements’ could/would be refulfilled. And it must be emphasized that she and other early Adventist Pioneers believed then that the end was (still) very near/imminent.

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 75.1 (1882)
The Lord has shown me that the message of the third angel must go, and be proclaimed to the scattered children of the Lord, but it must not be hung on time. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it; and that it will go in mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness.


The “third angel’s message” here pointedly refers to the Final Conflict of the Mark of the Beast and not to the Second Coming itself. The notion of “cutting it short in righteousness speaks of (actually) the Shaking (Rom 9:28 (KJV) cf. Isa 10:20-23 and its ensuing ‘Time of Trouble’ (Matt 24:21, 22). Manifestly, indeed as seen today, people in EGW days were trying to set out/chart definite times for these events which are to occur prior to the Second Coming. EGW was clearly “shown” however that the preaching of the Seal of God vs. Mark of the Beast Conflict message (Rev 14:9-11) was to be complete free of any time reckonings. This indeed defeats most, if not all of the popular time reckonings seen today as those claimed eschatological, literal time, fulfillments (i.e., 45 days; 1260 days/42 months/3.5 years; 1290 days & 1335 days) all are said to have some kind of fulfillment for some event/development in/during this Final Conflict, especially its ‘Time of Trouble’.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: GC
This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?


My view is close to GC's on this. Ellen White specifies in several places the kinds of future preditions that are not allowed - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the close of probation, the return of Christ. One category that she left out from those three that are off limits is specific periods of persecution. If the early church was warned of periods of persecution in advance more than once, it seems consistant that we would also be given similar warnings. One of those warnings that we need to understand according to Ellen White is in Daniel 12 IMO.
Quote:
Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 03:40 PM

Mark, as the above EGW quotes show, EGW did not endorse the reapplying of the 1335 days (Dan 12:12). I would natrually, comprehensively understand that this also applies to the closely related 1290 days (Dan 12:11). EGW believe that both of these time elements/prophecies were already completed/fullfilled in 1843 and 1798 respectively. To me this is what she inclusively intended in her ‘longest of these prophecies’ statement.

The mention of the ‘time, times and half a time’ (Dan 12:7) seems to me, in context, to be a direct reference to the historical period of Catholic dominance ad persecutions 538-1798 (=Dan 7:25). It is only because the second coming did not occur in 1844 as it could and should have, that that prophesied Second Coming ending (Dan 12:1-3) did not immediately occur/transpire then.

Furthermore, Daniel was overhearing in this ca. 536 B.C. conversation one asking about the fulfillment of these prophecies. (Dan 12:6), To which another angel responded by restating the indicative historical time period of the 1260 days (Dan 12:7 = Dan 7:25). Daniel however did not understand these times (Dan 12:8-10 = vss. 3, 4).

So I exegetically see that the mention of the ‘1260 days’ in vs. 7 is only a reference to the historical period of persecution of Dan 7:25 and not another post 1798/1844 timed period for the persecutions that will occur, indeed when Dan 11:40-12:3 will then be fulfilled.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
GC: This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

MM: What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?

MS: My view is close to GC's on this. Ellen White specifies in several places the kinds of future preditions that are not allowed - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the close of probation, the return of Christ. One category that she left out from those three that are off limits is specific periods of persecution. If the early church was warned of periods of persecution in advance more than once, it seems consistant that we would also be given similar warnings. One of those warnings that we need to understand according to Ellen White is in Daniel 12 IMO.

"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

Do you have in mind the 1260, 1290, and 1335 time prophecies?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Mark, as the above EGW quotes show, EGW did not endorse the reapplying of the 1335 days (Dan 12:12). I would natrually, comprehensively understand that this also applies to the closely related 1290 days (Dan 12:11). EGW believe that both of these time elements/prophecies were already completed/fullfilled in 1843 and 1798 respectively. To me this is what she inclusively intended in her ‘longest of these prophecies’ statement.

The mention of the ‘time, times and half a time’ (Dan 12:7) seems to me, in context, to be a direct reference to the historical period of Catholic dominance ad persecutions 538-1798 (=Dan 7:25). It is only because the second coming did not occur in 1844 as it could and should have, that that prophesied Second Coming ending (Dan 12:1-3) did not immediately occur/transpire then.

Furthermore, Daniel was overhearing in this ca. 536 B.C. conversation one asking about the fulfillment of these prophecies. (Dan 12:6), To which another angel responded by restating the indicative historical time period of the 1260 days (Dan 12:7 = Dan 7:25). Daniel however did not understand these times (Dan 12:8-10 = vss. 3, 4).

So I exegetically see that the mention of the ‘1260 days’ in vs. 7 is only a reference to the historical period of persecution of Dan 7:25 and not another post 1798/1844 timed period for the persecutions that will occur, indeed when Dan 11:40-12:3 will then be fulfilled.
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: GC
This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

What purpose would a time prophecy that doesn't pinpoint specific times and dates serve? What use would we make of it? In other words, why would God specify a period of time, say 1260 years, without also specifying definitive starting and ending dates?
Could it be that the start point for the chapter 12 time lines are depending upon something different than the 1260 years of the past? Also, are there other time lines which don't have specific start dates but are conditional on behavior. I'm thinking of the "seven times" in the first part of Daniel.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/25/11 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?


(Of course I did not say that she did.) Indeed she did not apply it herself, but as seen in the ‘Hewit correcting statement’ (6MR 251.2), she ascribed to and generally endorsed the application of others who saw that it transpired from 508-1843 A.D. (e.g., William Miller, Uriah Smith (Daniel & Revelation, 330-332ff), others can be seen in the Pioneers section of the EGW CDROM) .

She also said:

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 1, 1850 par. 10
The Lord showed me that the 1843 chart was directed by his hand, and that no part of it should be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them. That his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until his hand was removed.


And since she saw this time period as only applying to the past, and other applications of it were ‘great errors’, then I indeed do not see that ‘she applies it to the future’, as your question implies. And this “future’ of course would be her own immediate future, i.e.,within the upcoming time in her lifetime when she at first believed Jesus would return.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

She applied the 1335 to the past as fulfilled. She wrote:

Quote:
One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged. {16MR 208.3}

"the 1335 days were ended"
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Ellen White specifies in several places the kinds of future preditions that are not allowed - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the close of probation, the return of Christ. One category that she left out from those three that are off limits is specific periods of persecution. If the early church was warned of periods of persecution in advance more than once, it seems consistant that we would also be given similar warnings. One of those warnings that we need to understand according to Ellen White is in Daniel 12 IMO.

"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

Do you have in mind the 1260, 1290, and 1335 time prophecies?

The warning in Daniel 12 including the time elements should be studied not only according to Ellen White but also acording to our Lord.
Quote:
"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. . . Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. Mat. 24.
IMO here Christ directly refers us to the removal of the daily and the setting up of the abomination in Daniel 12.
Quote:
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
If someone came to me and pointed out that our Lord directs us to this particular warning, I hope I'd look into it even if I had a preconception of what that passage means.

What's the warning? It's the Divine instruction of when to flee. We don't want to do it too late and it's also important not to do it too soon. I believe these passages tell us when the time is ripe.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 08:58 AM

Sorry for using the ESV in quoting Daniel 12:11 above. Here it is in the KJV:
Quote:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


I'll not be able to participate in the future as much as I have been lately. Carry on friends. Remember the blessing:

Quote:
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The warning in Daniel 12 including the time elements should be studied not only according to Ellen White but also acording to our Lord.

IMO here Christ directly refers us to the removal of the daily and the setting up of the abomination in Daniel 12.

Originally Posted By: Bible Dan 12:11
And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.


Of course the warning for the period of future persecution should be studied today however “our Lord” also injunctively, directly told us through the SOP not to include time elements in those studies. That quasi-literally is Jesus speaking recently to update his instructions to believers living in the time of the end. You still have not explained why you do not see those SOP statements as valid.

Originally Posted By: Bible Matt 24:15(-)20
"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. . . Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. Mat. 24.


I have studied this passage in depth for my work on the 70 Weeks, and on top of clearly seeing that the (literally, i.e., rightly translated) “most abhorring part of the desolation that was spoken by the prophet Daniel” was pointedly the utter end in war of the prolonged 31-66 A.D. “desolation” of the Temple” (Matt 23:38) which Daniel had spoken about in Dan 9:26b & 27b, I’ll add here that the ‘most abhorring part of the desolation’ prophesied in Dan 12:11 is allusively clearly referring to the one mentioned 11:31. And this 11:31 antichrist set up “abomination” is not the same in spiritual nature, Theological meaning and fulfillment process as the Dan 9:26b & 27b one that Jesus Christ declared in 31 A.D. as a result of His anti-type Sacrifice. Furthermore, the 11:31 event had its timed 1290-day fulfillement from 508-1798 A.D. And as stated above, though it will have another Eschatological fulfillement, Jesus clearly said through EGW that it then will not involve definite time

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If someone came to me and pointed out that our Lord directs us to this particular warning, I hope I'd look into it even if I had a preconception of what that passage means.

What's the warning? It's the Divine instruction of when to flee. We don't want to do it too late and it's also important not to do it too soon. I believe these passages tell us when the time is ripe.


I Biblically see that this desire for indifferent insistence for time among some SDA believers today is a fulfillment of Christ’s statement in Matt 16:4. Why does one need to know ‘when to flee and/or how long persecution will last? I can only see it out of base thinking and desires. The objective, indeed God’s aim by remove the now fully understood element of time for Eschatological fulfillments, is so that His True Believers will be motivated by higher Spiritual reasons such as daily seeking to do what is right and following God’s will in faith, rather than only (spuriously) doing so because they had figured out/known the time.

And we were supposed to have long ago already been in a position/location to be removed from the harm that can be done to believers living in cities, and work those. Most SDA’s have just chosen not to heed that warning for various base reasons. Indeed the outpost method, (which is what the NJK Project is based on, in the current fuller extension of that SOP counsel), would prove to be much more impactful successful than the current one, i.e., in terms of distinctive spiritual witness, economical advantage and facilitated gospel/humanitarian works. The SOP counsel here was indeed not to ‘flee the cities when the 1290 days are about to start’ but to, in obedient faith, leave the cities long before that. But like Lot, many have instead chosen the “greener pastures” of the cities.

It all proves that, despite professions of a great hope and desire to see Christ return, most of the Church, indeed just judging by the number of current city dwellers, really does not believe that, and it indeed just waiting for a sign (e.g., Sunday Laws) before the begin to obey. That is not the faithless and unspiritual attitude that God is looking for in a (potentially) ‘Last Generation’.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 10:30 PM

Mark, I'm convinced the specific time aspects of Dan 12 were fulfilled in the past and have no bearing on the future.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/26/11 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

She applied the 1335 to the past as fulfilled. She wrote:

Quote:
One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged. {16MR 208.3}

"the 1335 days were ended"
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Mark, I'm convinced the specific time aspects of Dan 12 were fulfilled in the past and have no bearing on the future.

MM, about the 1335 days she spoke of to Hewit, was that correcting one of his errors or was that one of his errors? That is, could there be some ambiguity there?
his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors

One idea of determining such is to consider if everything EGW said was without ambiguity or if some things were a little awkward to today's English. If so, then this could be one of those statements. However, when she says:
Quote:
"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}
What should we make of that? Why did she specifically say we should read and study the 12th chapter, that it's a warning, if it was already in the past? Especially in 1903 way past 1843? What warning do you see in there that she would specifically call our attention to?

And the site NJK pointed to seem to also suggest the future.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/27/11 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
MM, about the 1335 days she spoke of to Hewit, was that correcting one of his errors or was that one of his errors? That is, could there be some ambiguity there?
his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors

One idea of determining such is to consider if everything EGW said was without ambiguity or if some things were a little awkward to today's English.


As already posted, I have addressed the ‘Hewit’ statement in detail here (Search for “Hewit”), including this crucial suppose ambiguity. There are links to others who also address that statement. As shown there it is indeed working from what is elsewhere clear in EGW’s writings that help to concretely understand her statement about Hewit.

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: SOP LDE 15.4
"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903).


kland:What should we make of that? Why did she specifically say we should read and study the 12th chapter, that it's a warning, if it was already in the past? Especially in 1903 way past 1843? What warning do you see in there that she would specifically call our attention to?


I see that she was warning to “read and study” the unfulfilled parts of that Chapter which indeed has key warnings as to what one needs to do to be prepared from the consummation of the GC spoken in 12:1a, such as: 12:1b; 3; 10. The portions contain times which were all fulfilled historically namely (vss. 7, 11, 12) also refer to events which will be fulfilled again before the end, but this time without definite time. Studying the historical fulfillments is very helpful to understand and perceived the Eschatological refulfillment.

This also shows that EGW saw future refulfillments of historical prophecies but without time elements as she was directly instructed.

Originally Posted By: kland
And the site NJK pointed to seem to also suggest the future.


What site are you referring to?? The one for the 1843 chart was Miller’s chart for historical, i.e., up to 1843 fulfillments.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/27/11 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

She applied the 1335 to the past as fulfilled. She wrote:

Quote:
One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged. {16MR 208.3}

"the 1335 days were ended"
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Mark, I'm convinced the specific time aspects of Dan 12 were fulfilled in the past and have no bearing on the future.

MM, about the 1335 days she spoke of to Hewit, was that correcting one of his errors or was that one of his errors? That is, could there be some ambiguity there?
his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors

One idea of determining such is to consider if everything EGW said was without ambiguity or if some things were a little awkward to today's English. If so, then this could be one of those statements. However, when she says:
Quote:
"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}
What should we make of that? Why did she specifically say we should read and study the 12th chapter, that it's a warning, if it was already in the past? Especially in 1903 way past 1843? What warning do you see in there that she would specifically call our attention to?

And the site NJK pointed to seem to also suggest the future.

Seems to me we should understand the phrase "the 1335 days were ended" (508-1843) in light of the Millerite Time Chart she endorsed. The warning in Dan 12 includes the close of probation. Jesus will stand up and cease interceding on our behalf. "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor." {GC 614.1} She also wrote and warned:

Quote:
Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}

When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {GC 490.2}

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. {GC 491.1}

"Watch ye therefore: . . . lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping." Mark 13:35, 36. Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments--it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting." Daniel 5:27. {GC 491.2}

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. {GC 613.1}

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

"All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {GC 488.2}
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/27/11 11:46 PM

Click to reveal..

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
[quote=kland]I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

She applied the 1335 to the past as fulfilled. She wrote:

Quote:
One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged. {16MR 208.3}

"the 1335 days were ended"
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Mark, I'm convinced the specific time aspects of Dan 12 were fulfilled in the past and have no bearing on the future.

MM, about the 1335 days she spoke of to Hewit, was that correcting one of his errors or was that one of his errors? That is, could there be some ambiguity there?
his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors

One idea of determining such is to consider if everything EGW said was without ambiguity or if some things were a little awkward to today's English. If so, then this could be one of those statements. However, when she says:
Quote:
"Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15 MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}
What should we make of that? Why did she specifically say we should read and study the 12th chapter, that it's a warning, if it was already in the past? Especially in 1903 way past 1843? What warning do you see in there that she would specifically call our attention to?

And the site NJK pointed to seem to also suggest the future.

Seems to me we should understand the phrase "the 1335 days were ended" (508-1843) in light of the Millerite Time Chart she endorsed. The warning in Dan 12 includes the close of probation. Jesus will stand up and cease interceding on our behalf. "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor." {GC 614.1} She also wrote and warned:

Quote:
Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}

When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {GC 490.2}

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. {GC 491.1}

"Watch ye therefore: . . . lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping." Mark 13:35, 36. Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments--it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting." Daniel 5:27. {GC 491.2}

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. {GC 613.1}

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

"All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {GC 488.2} [/quote]

Quote:
Seems to me we should understand the phrase "the 1335 days were ended" (508-1843) in light of the Millerite Time Chart she endorsed. The warning in Dan 12 includes the close of probation. Jesus will stand up and cease interceding on our behalf. "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor." {GC 614.1} She also wrote and warned:
Maybe you or JAK could help interpret that chart. While I do see the number, 1335, I cannot read much of the text and see nothing relating it to the future or past. It seems to only relate to the 1290 days. She did say there were errors in the chart. That is, could there be some ambiguity there?
By her making the statements: his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors
Could that phrase relate to the errors before and after it?

Do you disagree with the commentary and others that the first 4 verses of chapter 12 really belong in chapter 11? If you agree they belong in 11, do you think EGW knew that and/or when she referred to needing to understand the 12th chapter of Daniel before the time of the end, did she mean only the first 4 verses and not the remainder?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/28/11 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Maybe you or JAK could help interpret that chart. While I do see the number, 1335


If you could see the 1335 number then you can see that it is also plugged into the 508+1335=1843 chronology calculation.

Originally Posted By: kland
I cannot read much of the text


To enlarge the words, you can try either zoom the image right in your browser or download the image [usually: ‘Right click’; ‘Save image as’] and enlarge it on your computer which at least has some basic image viewing software.

If that is not sufficient or cannot work, if you have the 2008 EGW CD ROM ($19.95), you can read Miller’s own explanations in the “Works of the Pioneers” section. The General Conference Archive has many post of Miller’s “Midnight Cry” (= 1842) messages.

Originally Posted By: kland
and see nothing relating it to the future or past.


It’s William Miller’s chart...he did not even accept the Midnight Cry (1844) message, why would it be relating to any date past his obstinate one of the Spring of 1843??

Originally Posted By: kland
It seems to only relate to the 1290 days.


The 1335-1290=45 is only to show that there will be a 45 day difference between their fulfillments. And they are indeed related because, as common SDA interpretation teaches, see SDA Commentary, the 1290 and the 1335 days both started in 508 B.C.

Originally Posted By: kland
She did say there were errors in the chart.


As it was also later elaborated on by her and other SDA of her time, and throughout SDA history, the error was not adding a year for the B.C. to A.D. switch in the reckoning. Thus Miller’s 1843 year should have been 1844. His Spring ending was also corrected by the anti typical Day of Atonoment ‘10th day of the 7th Jewish Month’ reckoning which resulted in the October 22 date that year.

Originally Posted By: kland
That is, could there be some ambiguity there?


Not anymore. Indeed by the time EGW was retrospectively writing this, they were discovered and corrected by these Early Adventists, and actually before October 22, 1844.

Originally Posted By: kland
By her making the statements: his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors


Where are you reading/deriving: “his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors”?? I see that she merely said “mistake in some of the figures” and these were corrected before 1844, as God indeed had removed his covering hand by then.

As I understand it, this was done for the (potential) good of those Millerites as it should have served to make them fully ready by 1843 and also serve to weed out the non serious joiners of this group during the “tarrying time”.

Originally Posted By: kland
Could that phrase relate to the errors before and after it?


Only the 1843 to 1844 corrections were implicated in this error.

Originally Posted By: kland
Do you disagree with the commentary and others that the first 4 verses of chapter 12 really belong in chapter 11?


I personally agree. It wouldn’t be the first time that a Bible version publisher made this chapter separation error from the original text. Though I would further say that both ch. 10-12 should be a single chapter as it is the same uninterrupted ‘visitation and vision’ episode/sequence.

Originally Posted By: kland
If you agree they belong in 11, do you think EGW knew that


Such criticism was not very common in those days or generally not endorsingly echoed by most Christians, especially lay men and women.

Originally Posted By: kland
and/or when she referred to needing to understand the 12th chapter of Daniel before the time of the end, did she mean only the first 4 verses and not the remainder?


If, as you are positing, she knew that these first 4 verses were part of chapter 11 and not 12, then how would her statement to study chapter 12 include those first 4 verses?? I straightly understand that she meant Daniel 12 as it clearly read in her day, which is still the same now. Indeed, as pointed out above, it contains unfulfilled, and also (non-timed), re-fulfillable elements, from verse 1 and throughout.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/28/11 05:08 PM

Sabbath blessings. I have some extra time I wasn't expecting.

NJK, the Lord advised both us and the early church to study the abomination of desolation in Daniel. Why? What were the results of the study of Daniel's abomination in the early church? What did they conclude? Didn't their study tell them when to flee? Is it a large leap that His counsel to study the abomination in Daniel is the same for our time? If so, is it wise disassociating the time elements of these prophecies from the context?

True, when these prophecies were first fulfilled in 70 AD, there was no time element. But that can be viewed in two ways: It can be viewed as support for a time-free end time application, or it can be viewed as support for taking the entire prophecy together because the time elements have never been fulfilled in the end-time context. We'd agree that these prophecies are especially for the final generation, right?

It's also true that the 1260 days mentioned in a number of places were fulfilled in the dark ages but according the Christ's statements and other scripture, the abomination of desolation applies especially to the end, not to the dark ages. Are we safe in assuming that this most important application - to the final generation - can be severed from its time elements? What scriptural authority do we have to sever elements of this prophecy from its most important application?

NJK, I believe in outpost ministry. But even those in remote outposts will still have to flee. I admit I'm not sure myself how to apply the time elements. I'm studying them. The actual flight may be at the end of the 1260 days. This is what I tend to think. That's why understanding when the prophecy begins could be a matter of life and death.

On a related topic, can you tell me in simple words that all our readers can understand why you think Revelation 11 applies to leaders and who the two witnesses are? I've said above, I think the two witnesses are those who give the measuring/three angel's messages. You're saying the measuring message is for the leaders, right? Don't John's instructions to measure the temple and those who worship there include the entire church - that is all who take the name of Christ? What group is in the outer court that John is told not to measure?

But regarding EGW's prohibitions on time setting, I have addressed that in other posts but you don't see it the same way which is fine. However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views. smile



Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/28/11 06:17 PM

Regarding the idea that the warning is simply that we need to be ready character-wise for the close of probation, if that was the import of the warning we already have a clear understanding on that point. There would be no need to study Daniel 12 because we already have an understanding of the importance of being ready for the close of human probation. IMO there is some specific information in chapter 12 that collectively and individually we lack understanding on. If it's not the close of probation or the time to flee, what is it?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/28/11 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
NJK, the Lord advised both us and the early church to study the abomination of desolation in Daniel. Why? What were the results of the study of Daniel's abomination in the early church? What did they conclude? Didn't their study tell them when to flee? Is it a large leap that His counsel to study the abomination in Daniel is the same for our time? If so, is it wise disassociating the time elements of these prophecies from the context?


The factual answer is the Early Church fled Jerusalem in ca. 66 A.D. only after the Roman contigent under Cestus suddenly ended their seige of Jerusalem. It is only then, at the arrival of these Army Divisions, that, as Jesus had told them, that they saw that Jerusalem was about to be besieged and fled. It was not out of having calculated any time which showed them that they should flee in 66 A.D. and with the war ending during 70 A.D., after a return by Titus in late 69 A.D., ca. 3.5 years past since the initial siege and the utter end. So the prophecy in Daniel would have found its literal time fulfillment of a literal 1260 days then. My further view is that it was only because the NT (Gentile) Church was not fully ready then that the rest of these prophecies, and the Second Coming did not occur then, and time was proplonged and the Historical Age set in, when now most of these prophecies were going to be symbolically fulfilled. E.g., 1260 days = 1260 years.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
True, when these prophecies were first fulfilled in 70 AD, there was no time element. But that can be viewed in two ways: It can be viewed as support for a time-free end time application, or it can be viewed as support for taking the entire prophecy together because the time elements have never been fulfilled in the end-time context.


As explained above, I not only have the view time was involved in the fulfillments that occurred by 70 A.D., though the Church was not aware*, (hence an example that time is not really crucial, as also seen in Church History), but also that prophecies are fulfilled, even if partially, in either the Literal, Historical and Eschatological. I don’t have an ‘all or nothing’ view here.

*The timed 70 Weeks prophecy was also fulfilled in this “unaware of” way amongst the Apostolic Church.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
We'd agree that these prophecies are especially for the final generation, right?


I am of the view that they are for whatever generation Finishes the underlying work that will cause them to be unravelled. So it could have been for the Local/Literal “generation” ending 70 A.D., the Historical “generation” ending in 1844; or the, actually prolongedly, ongoing, and that since 1844, Eschatological “generation”. God will only release the 4 Winds that produce the fulfillment of these prophecies when a generation does the required Gospel Work.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
It's also true that the 1260 days mentioned in a number of places were fulfilled in the dark ages but according the Christ's statements and other scripture, the abomination of desolation applies especially to the end, not to the dark ages. Are we safe in assuming that this most important application - to the final generation - can be severed from its time elements? What scriptural authority do we have to sever elements of this prophecy from its most important application?


As stated above, I believe the final generation could have been at any three prior points 70 A.D., 1844 and the present one. I also see two other occasions when it could have occurred within the Eschatological (post 1844 times), namely ca. 1888 and ca. 1996.

As the statement that EGW made in regards to this ‘end of prophetic time” were both “I was shown statements and in pointed explanatory reference to what was (also) expressed in the Bible in Rev 10:6; then I see that there doubly is Scriptural/Inspired Authority to accept this as God’s express and incontrovertible will.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
NJK, I believe in outpost ministry. But even those in remote outposts will still have to flee. I admit I'm not sure myself how to apply the time elements. I'm studying them. The actual flight may be at the end of the 1260 days. This is what I tend to think. That's why understanding when the prophecy begins could be a matter of life and death.


Outposts are not for a place to hide. Since the days of EGW there virtually was no place where one can hid, especially today. (Indeed anyone with e.g, Google Earth today can find/see where anyone lives.) The reason to live in outposts were for Spiritual and Practical, Gospel Work Reasons. (1) To maintain a Spiritual “purity” and (2) serve as a great economic advantage vs. the economic trap that city dwellers are in and will be stuck in when hard times hit. Furthermore, not only is the Work not being done by not heeding these Inspired counsels, thus “frustrating” Final Events, but, just like with the Lot episode, God cannot send the deserved initial/Little Time of Trouble destructions on cities while His people are still living there. So by not heeding these counsels, and that out of comparable world-loving reasons as the rest of the unconverted world, God’s own people are directly, and in large part, responsible for delaying the end.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
On a related topic, can you tell me in simple words that all our readers can understand why you think Revelation 11 applies to leaders and who the two witnesses are? I've said above, I think the two witnesses are those who give the measuring/three angel's messages. You're saying the measuring message is for the leaders, right? Don't John's instructions to measure the temple and those who worship there include the entire church - that is all who take the name of Christ? What group is in the outer court that John is told not to measure?


I can “in one sentence” or so, but you’ll need to read my blog post to understand why. The word: “Altar” refers to the temple ministry and has pointed emphasis in the Greek. The ‘7000 names of men’ and the “tenth” refer to the non formal leadership, yet who are still part of the leadership. These are said to fall, but some remain. The outer court is not measured in this event as these now are“non-SDA Christians” who did not have this privileged opportunity to understand these Truths. Hence they are not judged in this first phase of final judgement. Even within the SDA Church there are honest members who have been misled by the wrong example of leaders, so they too are spared in this judgement. So while it was to involve the whole Church, as it goes on to show, only the leadership, whether formal or informal are judged, and as shown in the corroborating Whirlwind vision, which I believe for concrete reasons was given to EGW, the rest of the Church survive this judgement but must then reorganize themselves.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
But regarding EGW's prohibitions on time setting, I have addressed that in other posts


Where exactly?

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
but you don't see it the same way which is fine.


I believe there is only one Truth. So if I am wrong you should be able to point out in my responses above where you think I am.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views.


That is made in the light of the SOP’s standing counsel against any Eschatological time-setting and time reckoning. Reasons of, effectively, ‘wanting to known exactly when to obey SOP counsels’ especially in the light of Christ’s related statement in Matt 16:1-4 Biblically only lead me to view this as base thinking. We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear even, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that. I.e. whenever the work on the ground is done and allows for the furthering of fulfillments. That is what this Eschatological age is all about.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/28/11 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Regarding the idea that the warning is simply that we need to be ready character-wise for the close of probation, if that was the import of the warning we already have a clear understanding on that point. There would be no need to study Daniel 12 because we already have an understanding of the importance of being ready for the close of human probation. IMO there is some specific information in chapter 12 that collectively and individually we lack understanding on. If it's not the close of probation or the time to flee, what is it?


As stated earlier, I see that EGW counsel to study Dan 12 also involves understanding how the times of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 were established and transpired Historically and Spiritually apply to our day to perceive when similar movements are beginning to develop. Still no time will be involved and, really uselessly enough, using definite time here would only provide one with the supposed duration, and ending date for those events, and not any advanced warning of when to flee. If one is waiting for probation to close in order to flee the ensuing calamities, then it will be way to late. As the “type” example of Noah showed, they had to get in the Ark before that door of probation was shut. The same occurred with every Shut Door in Biblical/Prophetic History.

Only Spiritually heeding counsels to protect against those times will make one be prepared before they begin to occur. So knowing the definite time really serves no crucial purpose, the hardships during these, actually concurrent, periods of great opposition will still be just as hard even if one knows the time. However to those who obeyed counseled and prepared long before, they will actually be more defensible/tolerable.

So really character and spiritual preparation is the key here and not (the spurious) time reckoning/date setting. And as the Bible says, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God and one will most vitally need this Spiritual Guidance for those times.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/29/11 04:08 AM

So who are the two witnesses?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/29/11 12:21 PM

In the Historical Wave they were the Bible (OT & NT) in general vs. the Spiritual damages being done by the Catholic Church against it. In the Eschatological Wave, as stated on my blog post, it is most prominently the tangible, distinct but complimentary, missions and messages of Moses and Elijah which are to oppose and put down the current movements, pointedly in the present Remnant Church, to not do things according to God’s laws but in a worldly-conforming and “idolatrous” way, according to worldly views, policies and practices. (5T 81.1; cf. LDE 116.1-2) Those who, as it was related in Rev 10:8-11 “ingest” and thus “embody” the message come to be a corporal part of this reform movement.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/29/11 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Maybe you or JAK could help interpret that chart.


kland, I'm not sure why you would reference me on this point, as I do not recall ever posting to this thread.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 03:03 AM

Quote:
However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views.


This is a good point.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 03:05 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK
We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear event, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that.


I agree with this.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 01:48 PM

If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 05:56 PM


Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.


Quite.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: NJK
We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear event, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that.

I agree with this.

I also agree.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/30/11 06:31 PM

1. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. {10MR 270 (1888)}

2. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971 (1900)}

3. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told his disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that he will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off his coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. {RH, March 22, 1892}

Insights like the ones posted above make it difficult to believe the Bible contains time prophecies that will be fulfilled sometime after 1844 and sometime before Jesus returns. To what purpose would they serve? Since we cannot know Jesus will return in "one, two, or five years" what good would it do us to know a specified period of time (1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days) has finished fulfilling? Seems to me we would be no better off than knowing the 1260 and 2300 days ended in 1798 and 1844. That is, knowing those dates for the last 150 years hasn't helped us as it relates to the nearness of Jesus' second coming.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views.

This is a good point.


For the Biblical and SOP reasons already stated at the end of Post #133845, I see this as the only Biblical implication here. It has the same “religious loophole” connotation as the remark in Deut 15:9, 10. Indeed it is not even a personal character observation. The testimony against any use of any definite time is too Explicitly Authoritative, consistent, pointed and really, when rightly analysed, unambigiuous.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.


As I understand the fulfillment of Bible prophecy it is according to a sequential pattern, irrespective of time elements that may or may not be present. And that is all due to a inherent spiritual cause and effect order and also a desired order in which God desires for things to develop and be dealt with. And, as shown in this post, eve the SOP Final Events prophecies follow this sequential template found in the intricately structured book of revelation as EGW’s revelation on the Shaking perfectly follows the cross-sectional disposition of Revelation’s prophecies which are all dealing with various aspects of the Remnant Work/Church.

So, though I do not believe that any prophecy will be refulfilled with the involvement of definite time, I do see that the Historical events that were involved in the fulfilling of the (1) 1260 [538-1798]; (2) 1290 [508-1798]; and (3) 1335 [508-1843] days will have a future, eschatological re-occurrence. That is namely and respectively:
(1) there will again be an organized period of various oppositions to work [= 538-1798];
(2) that period will be preceded by decided and seemingly non-related/non-religious based organizational efforts [= 508-538];
(3) there will be a relatively brief, post persecution “respite” [=1798-1843]
(4) then there will be a very brief, post close of probation period that mirrors a “living” without an intercessor time” [= 1843-1844]

All this to say, that if one knows the time when the period of 1260days = 42 months will take place, they can easily figure out when the Second Coming should typologically occur.

Also, as seen inn the Historical Fulfillement of the 1260 days, [538-1798] there were not persecutions by the Catholic Church throughout. They started with the Inquisitions around the 12th century. (I believe this curtailing of persecutions is all in fulfillment of Matt 24:32 “for the sake of the elect.”) So the 1260 days involve much more than persecutions. And I see these various events to have clearly been listed in the prophecy of Dan 7 in vss. 8b|20b-21|25. This is namely (and not necessarily in order) to:

-Papal Establishment - “speak out against the Most High”
-Changes in Religious Time and Laws - vs. 10 Commandments
-Persecution of non-conformers

In the same way, a (non-definite time) of 1260days/42 months in the future will involve period for these three distinct actions. (cf. Rev 13:3-7) So, as I see it even believing that this will be a definite time of 3.5 years, would not indicate either when actual persecutions would begin nor how long they would last since the could start and end at any time during that period. Just like Catholic done persecution in Church History was from ca. The 1100's-1600's. That indeed led to the mass exodus for North America starting around the 1640's. (cf. Rev 12:15, 16|13:11a) So long before that prophecy’s time end of 1798.

Again, my view is those time mentions in Revelation in prophecies that will be eschatologically fulfilled are referential indicators to the Historical fulfillment to show what to expect to transpire. So just like these time prophecies started in History with definite movement to establish the Catholic Church as a more authoritative and far reaching temporal power, (ca. 508 [1290&1335]), it would be expected that those time prophecies would begin to occur when the Modern Catholic Church will begin to make moves to exercise more authoritative temporal and that through its members in various countries. Indeed this can be peacefully and even quite fairly, democratically be done. Once its establish and has removed any remaining opposing world powers as with the historical achievements by 538, it will then begin to take its various actions religiously through that obtained civil power. It is sometime during that time, when those who truly observe God’s Law and Sabbath will be standing in the way of its total sway of power and even declared to be dangerous that persecutions will begin. I have not done the detailing/ “template-filling” of the rest of these Final Events however, I tentatively see that the falling of the Last Plagues will be in the equivalent time of the Historical 1798-1843 period and then then will come the utter end. [=1843-1844].

So as I see it, even if the 1260/42 month period is figured out, if it was actually applicable, it still would not be known when exactly the persecutions would begin or even end. The key is to have heeded SOP counsels long before the 508 A.D. mirroring establishment movement.

Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

Hope all this is helpful.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 03:49 AM

Quote:
Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

I definitely agree.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By: EGW
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.(7BC 971.7)


Originally Posted By: His child
Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

I don’t see this response as being indicative nor conclusive of your point that prophetic time should be reckoned after 1844. Perhaps you think that the phrase: “which should precede the advent of our Lord” means ‘the time until/up to when Jesus actually returns,’ but that view would be/is refuted by the fact that, as recorded in 1MR 100.1, EGW made that statement in 1900 [=Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.)], thus 56 years after 1844. Moreover, quite clearly in that statement, she understood this include all time period shorter than ‘the longest of those times’, namely the 2300 days.


The phrase THE prophetic time (or the prophetic period, which has virtually the same meaning in the Spirit of Prophecy): the context is that it “must reach to the fall of the year 1844.” (CET 50.1) “We were looking for the Savior to come in 1844.” (HS 213.2) “…The prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ.” (DA 98.4) In almost every instance where the Spirit of Prophecy mentions the prophetic time, the context links it to the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1844: not time prophecies in general. In context, EGW is saying: the people will not have another message upon the definite time of Christ’s Advent after 1844. Yet when prophetic time is wrenched from its true meaning, the consensus among Seventh-day Adventists has become that all time prophecies stopped in 1844. Her words are read as: This time, which the angel declares... is...the end...of prophetic time.


Originally Posted By: His child
The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

From even just your quoted EGW statement above I don’t see this to be true. Also what “Scripture” are you referring to. To say that you “believe” that the time element in a Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or even, has recently been fulfilled, is not actually a proof against this “I was shown” statement of EGW.


If ALL time prophecy ended in 1844, another time prophecy after 1844 in the Bible would prove the Spirit of Prophecy to be in error. Wrong. It would prove a common misinterpretation of the SOP to be in error. The most common examples are the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel that the Spirit of prophecy clearly state relate to the last days - after 1844. But when people explain away the obvious to cling to the things that they have been taught and believe, no amount of evidence will change their private interpretations.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project


Also these already cited, many other SOP quotes in this regard, (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) clearly show that EGW was copiously, consistently and unequivocally clear on this issue, even rebuking those in her time who went against it.


Consider just one proof you offer above "They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {2SM 73.2}" The problem was not prophetic time. These people were rebuked for reinterpreting the 2300-days and recalculating the end of the 2300-days to change the waymark from 1844 to 1884.

The proof that you offer is out of context and does not relate to the topic as you are attempting to have it.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

(See e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]) Indeed, though she spoke of many time fulfillments which she even expected for her time, she never made an exposition on time elements, indeed namely, the 1290 & 1335 days.

Indeed it makes all the sense in the world why God would make a direct revelation to EGW about this, given the normative, even logical, likelihood of involving time element in future fulfillments.


The case of Brother Hewit may prove that all prophetic time did not stop in 1844. He was teaching errors. Was he teaching that the 1335 were in the past and Ellen White rebuked him stating that he was wrong? Or was her rebuke that they had ended?

"We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}" See what Ellen says:

Originally Posted By: EGW

May the Lord help you to understand His Word. If you will heed and practise this Word, you will become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Let our ministers and teachers seek knowledge from the one true source. Let them seek the Lord with much prayer, earnestly searching His Word to find the hidden treasure. Now, just now [1907], is the golden opportunity to understand the truths of the Word, and let this opportunity be improved by all. Let the book of Daniel be read, and its instruction heeded. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8}
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [EGW quotes this promise in 1907 long after 1844]. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 9}

63-years after 1844 EGW places the 1335-days in the present or future.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Daniel is today [1907] standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10}
These words present the work that we are to do in these last days. We are not one-half awake. We have not the power that is essential to the doing of the work that must be done. We must come into life, come into union. Now, just now, we must stand in that position where repentance and pardon shall be the striking features of our work. There must be no quarrelling. It is too late to engage with Satan in his work of blinding eyes. It is too late to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 11}


In EGW's comment above she clearly stated in 1907 that it was time to understand the 1335-days as Daniel was TODAY standing in his lot. And she linked the context of the 1235-days to Michael's standing in the LAST DAYS. She is consistent:
Originally Posted By: EGW

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}


Originally Posted By: His child
The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: EGW
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

These SOP quotes are taken out of their context. You are making them seem like EGW is ‘rebuking the error of not make prophetic time interpretation after 1844' when that is not at all what she was saying nor referring to as “error”. Therefore this is a patent SOP “proof text”

In ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15 she is referring to doctrinal errors in the Early NT Church During Paul’s and John time. There was not even a notion or understanding of how to interpret time prophecies then.

In FE 450.1, indeed as seen in the opening sentence of that paragraph that you left out she says: “Great light was given to the Reformers, but many of them received the sophistry of error through misinterpretation of the Scriptures.” Thus she is referring to errors from the time of these Reformers. And as the work of these Reformers went on to make understood the interpretation of time elements in Bible prophecies, she surely, especially in your view, is not saying that this was one of the pointed errors that been passed on to the, actually distinct Remnant Church. Indeed she, writing this in 1897 (see SpTEd 154.1) is speaking about Catholic and Protestant Churches (not including of course, the SDA Church).


Error is error. The context of the quotes is that they rebuke error. If another error creeps into the church after the first is rebuked the rebuke is still valid for the new error as it was for the older error. Your argument is that because you do not believe that the teaching that you hold dear is in error that it cannot be rebuked as such. But since it is in error the rebuke is valid.

Originally Posted By: EGW
“At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” 3SM 31.4
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 01:51 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: His child
Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844


Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??


Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related [url=]Youtube clip[/url] for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well

2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people

3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry

The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 05:03 PM

His Child, I am totally convinced you will be as disappointed as was Harold Camping. When President Obama and Pope Benedict leave office before Jesus returns I hope you will not give up on Jesus.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 05:20 PM

Quote:
Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: kland
Maybe you or JAK could help interpret that chart.


kland, I'm not sure why you would reference me on this point, as I do not recall ever posting to this thread.

Sorry, meant NJK.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: NJK
We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear event, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that.

I agree with this.

I also agree.

I also agree. For the most part. But no one here is setting a date for Jesus to come. And what if when this "clear event" begins, it will be too late for those who already have an opportunity to know, yet refuse? There is no "putting off".

This is why we need to understand the character of God. If we look at Him seeking whom He may destroy, then it's easy to believe He has some arbitrary secret date for the closing of probation and goes, ah ha, you are lost. You missed the cutoff point, too bad. But if we look at Him coming to save as many who are willing, could it be there is no magic cutoff date, but is it possible that the close of probation is different for different people? That is, for those who are hard set and stubborn, when some "clear event" happens, their probation has already closed, but for those who had not yet had the opportunity to know, their probation closes when they make their decision after the persecution starts?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 05/31/11 08:27 PM

Quote:
The book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days. The Scripture says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4). When the book was opened, the proclamation was made, "Time shall be no longer." (See Revelation 10:6.) The book of Daniel is now unsealed, and the revelation made by Christ to John is to come to all the inhabitants of the earth. By the increase of knowledge a people is to be prepared to stand in the latter days. {2SM 105.1}

Quote:
In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified,
and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
Quote:
Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witness in the world. By their fulfilment in these last days, they will explain themselves. {KC 105.2}

If Ellen White is writing after 1843, and if there are prophecies somewhere in Daniel which should be understood and witness to the world, and will be fulfilled in these last days, which part of Daniel would she be speaking about? Ellen White said it was the vision of the last days when Daniel inquired, what shall be the end of these things. If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted By: SOP 7BC 971.7
“This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


His child: Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844.

NJK: I don’t see this response as being indicative nor conclusive of your point that prophetic time should be reckoned after 1844. Perhaps you think that the phrase: “which should precede the advent of our Lord” means ‘the time until/up to when Jesus actually returns,’ but that view would be/is refuted by the fact that, as recorded in 1MR 100.1, EGW made that statement in 1900 [=Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.)], thus 56 years after 1844. Moreover, quite clearly in that statement, she understood this include all time period shorter than ‘the longest of those times’, namely the 2300 days.

His child: The phrase THE prophetic time (or the prophetic period, which has virtually the same meaning in the Spirit of Prophecy): the context is that it “must reach to the fall of the year 1844.” (CET 50.1) “We were looking for the Savior to come in 1844.” (HS 213.2) “…The prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ.” (DA 98.4) In almost every instance where the Spirit of Prophecy mentions the prophetic time, the context links it to the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1844: not time prophecies in general. In context, EGW is saying: the people will not have another message upon the definite time of Christ’s Advent after 1844. Yet when prophetic time is wrenched from its true meaning, the consensus among Seventh-day Adventists has become that all time prophecies stopped in 1844. Her words are read as: This time, which the angel declares... is...the end...of prophetic time.


From what I have read EGW did understand “the prophetic time” synonymously with the singular “prophetic period”, however I see that the plural “prophetic periods” refers to the group of prophecies reaching into the 1798-1843-1844 periods as reckoned by William Miller and all included in his chart.

It must be specified that in DA 98.4 she is using the term prophetic period to refer pointed to the 70 Weeks portion of the 2300 days (cf. CET 50.1; GC 351.1) as she fully says:

Originally Posted By: SOP DA 98.4
the prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ. The knowledge that the end of this period was near had moved Zacharias to pray for the Messiah's advent.


So I understand EGW’s mention of specific/singular mentions of the/this prophetic time/period to be a pointed reference to the 70 Weeks/2300 days, but a general/plural “prophetic time/periods” mention to be in regards to all

Originally Posted By: SOP EW 243.2
Jesus did not come to the earth as the waiting, joyful company expected, to cleanse the sanctuary by purifying the earth by fire. I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days.


This is understanding surfacely may seem to be contradicted by her statement that:

Originally Posted By: SOP 1MR 100.1
This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.


However, as stated before, the fact that she points out “the longest reckoning” here logically indicates that she had more than one time prophecy in mind. So as she lumps them in with the 2300 days, indeed both “the longest” and the only one reaching to 1844, then it is clear to me that all time prophecies are included.

Quote:
His child:The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures.

NJK: From even just your quoted EGW statement above I don’t see this to be true. Also what “Scripture” are you referring to. To say that you “believe” that the time element in a Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or even, has recently been fulfilled, is not actually a proof against this “I was shown” statement of EGW.

His child: If ALL time prophecy ended in 1844, another time prophecy after 1844 in the Bible would prove the Spirit of Prophecy to be in error. Wrong. It would prove a common misinterpretation of the SOP to be in error. The most common examples are the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel that the Spirit of prophecy clearly state relate to the last days - after 1844. But when people explain away the obvious to cling to the things that they have been taught and believe, no amount of evidence will change their private interpretations.


My question was, where in the Scripture is it being taught that there will be prophetic time after 1844? I.e., contra what EGW, as I see it, meant that the statement in Rev 10:6 meant and fully involved. As I understand this, this means that even if a prophecy is to be refulfilled, or even fulfilled at a first instance after 1844, if it contains a definite time, then that time is not to be reckoned. The prophetic message itself still applies, but its time element is of no application or consequence.

Also I don’t see your subsequent argument as being objectively conclusive because one would have to first think that EGW didn’t mean ‘all time prophecies’ in her statements. So the issue remains with independently clearly demonstrating that, as you are claiming here: EGW taught that: “the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel ... relate to the last days - after 1844.”

Also my Theology allows for Christ to have returned very shortly after 1844, even within a year. So there would not have been any conceivable opportunity to claim that the 1260, 1290 1335 days should/could be refulfilled. That only became seen as a possibility as time, was prolonged way beyond the 1844 date and the supposed to be soon fulfilled “Great time of Trouble” (Dan 12:1) never began to materialize date. So people during that prolonging time then began making new and literal reckonings of the times in Dan 12 as their prior ends did not dovetail into the expect soon prophetic consummation. As I understand it, it was pointed against such practices that EGW was instructed to make her statements against the use/reckoning of any prophetic time/period from those 1844 days onward.

Quote:
NJK: Also these already cited, many other SOP quotes in this regard, (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.) clearly show that EGW was copiously, consistently and unequivocally clear on this issue, even rebuking those in her time who went against it.

His child: Consider just one proof you offer above "They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {2SM 73.2}" The problem was not prophetic time. These people were rebuked for reinterpreting the 2300-days and recalculating the end of the 2300-days to change the waymark from 1844 to 1884.


Where are you reading/seeing that these people specifically had the 2300 days in mind here? I don’t see this anywhere in the statement’s context.

As I said, I see that this statement by EGW is great proof that she understood “definite time” to involve more than only the time of the 2300 days. It is speaking of probationary time. Which could easily mean, as it manifestly/intuitively does, a claimed 40 year probation from October [22], 1844 to October 1884. That is, the Bible has many examples of God using “40", inherently probationary, years, even days, before executing/or finish execution a previously declared judgement. That is seen in:

-Israel’s declared 40 years of waaderings until all the guilty/responsible ones died off,
-40 years of Jeremiah’s warning ministry until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians
-40 days until Nineveh was to be destroyed
-ca. 40 years from the time of Christ’s pronouncement of judgement on Jerusalem until it occurred starting in 66 A.D. and completed by 70 A.D.

In all of these periods, there was some form of involved mercy/probation:

-Israel’s 40 Wilderness years was a merciful killing vs. the instantaneous one that had been considered.
-The people of Judah and Jerusalem could have repented and been forgiven under Jeremiah’s preaching
-God granted pardon to Nineveh when they repented, as Jonah himself always knew was a possibility, indeed the likeliest thing to occur with God
-many Jews were saved as they converted to Christianity in the time from Christ’s pronouncement until that judgement came

So it is easy to see that these people in EGW’s day were using this period of 40, deemed applicably as “years” by them to claim that God was allowing a probation of 40 years until he would complete the Second Coming Advent/Judgement. And as EGW met them in Camp Meeting in manifestly 1884, then they were probably SDA’s and probably also accepted the light on the Shut Door that revealed that probation had only been “shut” for those who in ca. 1844 had great light on the Midnight Cry but rejected it. Others who did not have such light still had their probation opened. So these people were probably claiming that this allowed probation would timely come to an end in October 1884.

Originally Posted By: His child
The proof that you offer is out of context and does not relate to the topic as you are attempting to have it.


For the many reasons stated in this thread, including the discussion of each of those statements, and also the present ones in this post, then I see that they are “exegetically” sound (i.e., with all pertinent/contributive things considered) in regards to what EGW actually meant.

Quote:
NJK: (See e.g., in this blog post [Note #4 and/or Search for “Brother Hewit”]) Indeed, though she spoke of many time fulfillments which she even expected for her time, she never made an exposition on time elements, indeed namely, the 1290 & 1335 days.

NJK: Indeed it makes all the sense in the world why God would make a direct revelation to EGW about this, given the normative, even logical, likelihood of involving time element in future fulfillments.

His child: The case of Brother Hewit may prove that all prophetic time did not stop in 1844. He was teaching errors. Was he teaching that the 1335 were in the past and Ellen White rebuked him stating that he was wrong? Or was her rebuke that they had ended? "We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}"


For the linguistic and logical statements made in that post, indeed still being determined by what I understand EGW’s post-1844 view to be on prophetic time in general, I think that she meant that ‘he should have been teaching that “the 1335 days were ended”’. As I see it, as shown below, EGW only drew out the symbolic/typical involved in the 1335 days as the relatively short period of time when the Last Plagues and other signs would come as the antichrist power was deposed of and judged.

Originally Posted By: His child
See what Ellen says:

Originally Posted By: SOP AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8-9
May the Lord help you to understand His Word. If you will heed and practise this Word, you will become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Let our ministers and teachers seek knowledge from the one true source. Let them seek the Lord with much prayer, earnestly searching His Word to find the hidden treasure. Now, just now [1907], is the golden opportunity to understand the truths of the Word, and let this opportunity be improved by all. Let the book of Daniel be read, and its instruction heeded. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8}
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days [EGW quotes this promise in 1907 long after 1844]. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 9}


His child: 63-years after 1844 EGW places the 1335-days in the present or future.


It is also quite significant to me that EGW quote every word from this Dan 12:10-12, except for vs. 11 which speaks of the definite reckoning of the 1290 days. The 1335 days does not involve such specific indications of when it was to begin. Just an implied understanding that there would be a deliberate delay between the end of the beast power’s reign and authoritative oppositions and the time when “the end” would begin to be consummated. So the wise were here being encouraged to remain faithful and watchful through this extension of time. And as the formal and organized persecutions would have ended there, there may indeed have been a consideration to believe that the Second Coming would not occur and thus stop expecting it and also turn away from preparatory work for fully proclaiming it during this time. It is indeed human natural to think that the end is near during this of adversities and not during times of peace.

So as stated above, I see that she was only gleaning out the spiritual applications involved in those counsels. That symbolically includes the “blessing” for those who endure/remain faithful right through the significant type of the 1843 period. My understanding is that she did not see the 1335 as being literal or involving definite time, but being merely symbolic/exhortational, based upon the Historical lessons.

Originally Posted By: SOP AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10-11
Daniel is today [1907] standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10}
These words present the work that we are to do in these last days. We are not one-half awake. We have not the power that is essential to the doing of the work that must be done. We must come into life, come into union. Now, just now, we must stand in that position where repentance and pardon shall be the striking features of our work. There must be no quarrelling. It is too late to engage with Satan in his work of blinding eyes. It is too late to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 11}


As stated above, I see the expounding on these passages in Dan 12:1-4 to be merely exhortational and not to involve/or be seeking to involve the definite reckoning of time.

Quote:
His child: In EGW's comment above she clearly stated in 1907 that it was time to understand the 1335-days as Daniel was TODAY standing in his lot. And she linked the context of the 1235-days to Michael's standing in the LAST DAYS. She is consistent:

Originally Posted By: SOP 1SAT 225.5-226.1
In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}


I still don’t see this to mean that any such times should be literally/definitely reckoned. Just that the message itself applies and these time elements, due to the Historical developments they point to, also greatly contribute to the comprehension of these spiritual/prophetic messages.

Quote:
His child: The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth.

Originally Posted By: SOP ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15
The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15)


Originally Posted By: SOP FE 450.1
These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)


NJK: These SOP quotes are taken out of their context. You are making them seem like EGW is ‘rebuking the error of not make prophetic time interpretation after 1844' when that is not at all what she was saying nor referring to as “error”. Therefore this is a patent SOP “proof text”

NJK: In ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15 she is referring to doctrinal errors in the Early NT Church During Paul’s and John time. There was not even a notion or understanding of how to interpret time prophecies then.

NJK: In FE 450.1, indeed as seen in the opening sentence of that paragraph that you left out she says: “Great light was given to the Reformers, but many of them received the sophistry of error through misinterpretation of the Scriptures.” Thus she is referring to errors from the time of these Reformers. And as the work of these Reformers went on to make understood the interpretation of time elements in Bible prophecies, she surely, especially in your view, is not saying that this was one of the pointed errors that been passed on to the, actually distinct Remnant Church. Indeed she, writing this in 1897 (see SpTEd 154.1) is speaking about Catholic and Protestant Churches (not including of course, the SDA Church).

His child: Error is error. The context of the quotes is that they rebuke error. If another error creeps into the church after the first is rebuked the rebuke is still valid for the new error as it was for the older error. Your argument is that because you do not believe that the teaching that you hold dear is in error that it cannot be rebuked as such. But since it is in error the rebuke is valid.


That what is innately involved in a “proof text”. One has to independently believe what they are claiming the text is corroborating. The only way your cited text support your view is what you are aiming to denounce is “error”. Otherwise they do not apply at all and certainly offer no evidence at all towards understanding EGW’s view on post 1844 prophetic time. So as you had not made your case, and I still see/think that you have not, then mentioning such error texts is really not “impressive” or influential at all in the discussion.

Originally Posted By: SOP 3SM 31.4
“At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” 3SM 31.4


Same comment as just above, for this cited EGW “error” quoting.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:51 AM

Quote:
His child: Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844

NJK: Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??

His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.


I can appreciate/understand your gesture “thanking” to be humble/“honest” here, but all things considered, I am still wondering if you yourself had ever considered/used this “clarification” of yours here. Perhaps you had done so in your book, however, it is because, as shown below, it still does not amount to what the end dates you claim of: “19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC” (= ca. September 6) that I am seeing that something is still not accurate here.

As seen in the ATS study of the 70 Weeks by Brempong Owusu-Antwi (pp. 295-299), and as it is a historical fact, the Persians (as well as the Jews) reckoned the years of their kings after and accession year period until the calender start of their new year, if applicable, as almost (if not, literally) always, unless the previous king died on exactly the first day, (or would it have to be the day before) their calender’s New Year’s day. For the Persians, New Year’s day was on the First of Nisan (ca. March 15), (as it also was for the Jews, however the Jews reckoned the years of kings according to their fall-to-fall calender which started on Tishri 1 ca. October 15). So here are the possible reckonings for a “Fifth month of Artaxerxes 7th Year, including the fact that, as discussed by Owusu-Antwi, his predecessor Xerxes died on either Dec. 17 or 23/24 in 465 B.C. or Jan 2/3 464 B.C.

-All of these possible death dates, all mean that, for the Persians, Artaxerxes was in his accession, and “0" year from December 465 or January 464 until ca. March 15 (Nisan 1) 464. So his regnal years could only be:

1 - March 464 - March 463
2 - March 463 - March 462
3 - March 462 - March 461
4 - March 461 - March 460
5 - March 460 - March 459
6 - March 459 - March 458 7 - March 458 - March 457

So ‘his first to fifth regnal month’ in his seventh year as you claim would be from ca. March 15, 458 to July 15, 458. That is exactly the same as calender months given the actual Persian method.

To claim that the month began from the month of the death of the preceding king, would not only be in gross contradiction of attested Historical reckoning customs of the Persians, but would still not end up in the date that you claim as it would end on either April 17, 23/24 or May 2/3, and that in 458 B.C. from the following regnal years:

1 - December 465 - December 464
2 - December 464 - December 463
3 - December 463 - December 462
4 - December 462 - December 461
5 - December 461 - December 460
6 - December 460 - December 459
7 - December 459 - December 458

For the Jews, who, as proven, used their fall-to-fall calender, if these years were reckoned both according to that calender and not referring to the number of calender numbers, his pertinent regnal years would be:

1 - September 464 - September 463
2 - September 463 - September 462
3 - September 462 - September 461
4 - September 461 - September 460
5 - September 460 - September 459
6 - September 459 - September 458 7 - September 458 - September 457

And their reckoned date for Ezra’s trip would be from ca. September 15, 458 to January 15, 457 B.C.

If it was their Spring Calender the those supposedly regnal months were the same as their Calender month and thus also a ca. March 15, 457 to July 15, 457 journey.

So in no conceivable reckoning, even non attested ones is a end date of ca. September 6 (and thus started in ca. May 6)

So hence my, still remaining, and even deeper puzzlement in regards to your prophetic reckoning.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


His Child: Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well


Who says it is yet to be known? A barcode and microchip was showed. That is perfectly known and even utilized technologies. If the aim is to prevent buying and selling (perhaps pointedly ‘spending or making money, thus probably not bartering or ‘working for food and shelter’ (as “slaves”)), then the simple use of presenting an chip protected idea card or credit card with an associated fingerprint/biometric confirmation to buy or sell something should do it. Even if cash is used, the person taking your money would simply just have to validate the transaction by swiping/scanning that encrypted id and/or credit/debit card and confirming their identity. With computer inventories, as merchant can easily be audited to see if all his transactions were “legal”.

Sure a tattooed barcode or implanted chip would be simpler, but as they possibly could be either altered (i.e., a “buying & selling barring” tattoo erased completely and replaced with a copy of a permitting one) or switched (removing through precision and minimal surgery a “barring” chip and replacing it with a provided/lent “permitting one”, allowing for this minimal scarring to disappear and then literally stocking up on provisions before “returning” it) some kind of independent biometric confirmation of the person’s identity would still be required.

All this to say that (1) presently known technologies are sufficient to enforce the Mark of the Beast. And advance technology was to be crucial to the fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast, then how would it have been fulfilled in EGW’s time, as it could/should have and (2) why doesn’t EGW make indicative details of this in her writings.

Seems to me that this is just a popular notion of non-SDA’s in regards to the Mark of the Beast who indeed spiritually glibly think this is a literal marking and thus must be a barcode or microchip.

And what do you think would fulfill a ‘yet to be known mechanism’, which means to me nothing that exists today in any way? Of course, that claim would mean that we don’t know it yet, but my question is what (more) do you think it would technologically take to enforce the Mark of the Beast today or in the future? (Seriously suggested: “mind reading” abilities? And that even beyond the current ability to tangibly utilize one’s brain wave activity to control things.)

Originally Posted By: His child
2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people


America will indeed serve to persecute God’s People however that Biblically does not make their President the Antichrist. The Bible is clear that the Second Beast is only acting as the pawn of the First Beast which is and solely and distinctly is, the antichrist. (See Rev 13:12-17). That is all what is symbolically depicted in Rev 17 as a woman (Apostate Church & antichrist) riding a beast (a controlled civil power).

Originally Posted By: His child
3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry


Does the Loud Cry period figure as part of your definitely reckoned time, which I assume are all within the literal range of 3.5-3.7years/1260-1335 days? Is yes, then how does the by now, up to 4-4.5+ years/1461-1641+ days fit into your prophetic scenario??

As I also prophetically understand it, this would imply that the Sealing, Shaking and also the Latter Rain events would have already transpired in the Church. What’s precisely your view in this regards? (I.e./E.g., partial, spiritual and/or personal fulfillments vs. full, quite manifest and corporal fulfillements).

Originally Posted By: His child
The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.


Is/Was he an SDA? His here cited ‘words/themes to pictures’ associations/identifications don’t suggest so.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:54 AM

Quote:
His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

Rosangela: There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


On top of the reasons I have posted showing that the reckoning in general is not valid (Post #133953), I also do not see that the claim here from this single verse is conclusive of His child’s claim of “regnal months”, indeed for reasons of being variously both Biblically and Historically “unattested”.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
I also agree. For the most part. But no one here is setting a date for Jesus to come. And what if when this "clear event" begins, it will be too late for those who already have an opportunity to know, yet refuse? There is no "putting off".


As I understand it, the only way that this occurs is through the fact that the close of probation for SDA’s will occur before the one for the rest of the world. I can only see that this will be during the Sealing of the Church which will be followed by the Shaking. My view in general is that SDA’s have not been advancing with the increasing prophetic light all revolving around the deeper meaning of God’s Sabbath (Isa 58) and its corresponding implications to the Mark of the Beast issue. So while SDA’s think they have it all figured out and e.g., only need to look for the literal passing of a law opposing the letter of the law aspect of the Sabbath, they will miss the actually paramount Spiritual/Fuller Implications and related prophetic developments.

In regards to “putting off”, even only involving non-spiritual/letter-of-the-law predictions as done in EGW’s writings, (though she laid the foundation for the Spiritual understandings. It just was not a present truth for her and her generation), if one has the view that ‘3.5 years of persecution’ must pass before Jesus can return then they obviously not expect him to Return before that. So they are susceptible to miss some “signs” which won’t necessarily be that obvious, if these do not harmonize with their time. False Biblical interpretations/beliefs always lead to some kind of wrong, event fatally deceptive application. That’s what happen to William Miller and led him to reject other more Biblical understandings, and though he will be saved, in the last days, such errors will surely be fully exploited by Satan within his planned overmastering delusion.

Also if Christ returns before that claimed 3.5 years has expired then what was the point at all of having figured out any time.

It is however most crucial in regards to period that extend beyond this believed 3.5 years because people can then easily abandon the faith when they see that their expected time has come and gone and nothing happened. Indeed they had looked for some event in the past to start that reckoning and really would only begin to consider that they had been wrong after 3.5 years had passed. So in that passing time they naturally would have rejected any other movement/sign and could there crucially reject the true light.

And as I said before, calculating a time for the persecution as 3.5 years/1260 days, which Historically was not actually an entire period of persecutions and thus would likewise also not be even in a definite time refulfillment, then if, as in history, persecutions end before that calculated time runs out, yet the end is not yet/immediate but some extra time is allowed to pass, that also would crucially throw off those who have a ‘definite’ and ‘full persecution, 3.5 year time’ belief/interpretation.

And as further seen in Christ’s only sign mention in Matt 16:1-4, because the Spiritual themes involved were not understood, even the specific time hinted by Jesus did not serve to help save most in that generation. In fact that time was also cut short from a potential full 72 hours over 3 full days to ca. 36 hours over parts of 3 inclusive days. Knowing Christ “message” and truth was paramount over even definite time. I think that the same thing will occur in the end.

Originally Posted By: kland
This is why we need to understand the character of God. If we look at Him seeking whom He may destroy, then it's easy to believe He has some arbitrary secret date for the closing of probation and goes, ah ha, you are lost. You missed the cutoff point, too bad. But if we look at Him coming to save as many who are willing, could it be there is no magic cutoff date,


All throughout the Bible, as indicated by EGW on the topic of the close of probation/shut doors, it always occurs without being precisely known by those affected. Even for completely unaware non-believers. (E.g., LDE 229-231; cf. Matt 24:38, 39ff; ) So then how much more for people who should have been looking to this fulfillment. It is God himself who characterizes his coming as a thief and leaves the responsibility to any person willing to be save to make sure, of themselves that this is not the case for them (1 Thess 5:2-8 = Rev 3:3; 16:15), and that even if it is not God’s will that those genuine believers be lost (1 Thess 5:9, 10).

Also it is what the Bible teaches that dictate what the character of God is/fully entails and not what one may want to see or thinks is to be the case. So in this case, God would see it as perfect and just, for reasons of righteousness by (genuine) faith to not tell someone when their probation will close, or has close, lest they put of repentance until that time and only bother/strive to live righteously only after that time has passed.

Originally Posted By: kland
but is it possible that the close of probation is different for different people?


I am of the Biblical/SOP understanding that probation “sectionally” closes only on whole groups and not individuals. In this case first SDA’s , the rest of the World (both Christians and non-Christians). There indeed always only are two groups in any such Shut-Doors/Close of Probations.

Originally Posted By: kland
That is, for those who are hard set and stubborn, when some "clear event" happens, their probation has already closed, but for those who had not yet had the opportunity to know, their probation closes when they make their decision after the persecution starts?


The close of probation on a group always occurs in relation to the amount of light/warning they had been given. So with non-SDA’s it will collectively come only after the incontrovertible light of the Loud Cry has been given. It surely can come after the persecution of the righteous start, with then joining the ranks of the righteous, but that would not at all involve, or be due to, any reckoned time element.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 03:56 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
If Ellen White is writing after 1843, and if there are prophecies somewhere in Daniel which should be understood and witness to the world, and will be fulfilled in these last days, which part of Daniel would she be speaking about? Ellen White said it was the vision of the last days when Daniel inquired, what shall be the end of these things. If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?


Perhaps my recently posted comments above have answered that related question.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 08:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


Thank you for the excellent feedback. I wish we had had this conversation sooner, but it is always great to get a new perspective so that things do not get missed or misunderstood.

Since there are 2300-days from the beginning of the reign or Artaxexes to the time that Ezra arrived at Jerusalem with 19-days to spare, and it fits the known prophetic time line I had no need to study that point further. But now that I have these additional facts, is there an event in Artaxeses' first year that links to the beginning of the 2300-days instead of his inauguration?

Thank you
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
kland,

...I don't believe all prophecies apply to the past - I'm not a preterist. My view is Historicism - which means that all prophecies are fulfilled within history. Of course human history is still in progress, so there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Now, if you ask me if I believe that there are still time prophecies to be fulfilled, I'll tell you I don't. Why? Simply because I don't believe this world will last long enough for another 1260 (or 1290, or 1335) years to fulfill a prophecy. I do distinguish between Historicism and tradition, but you don't seem to distinguish between Historicism and ecleticism. Within Historicism, all prophecies are interpreted within the pattern of a day for a year. Now, if you don't see anything wrong in arbitrarily interpreting prophecies in some instances as a day for a year, and in other instances as a day for a day, what else can I say? However, you should be aware that the pattern you are following is not a historicist one, but an ecleticist one.


I find no instruction in the Word of God, the Bible, or the Spirit of prophecy that commands that a particular pattern of biblical interpretation is to dictate our biblical understanding.

If Historicism (or any other...)is a pattern, model or framework that serves like an outline to help us conceptualize prophecies that span centuries, its structure is a tool to assist in the process of understanding (like a catalyst). Historicism is not the prophecy, nor is it infallible.

The word of God gives a day for a year in Ezekiel's prophecy. Then Ezekiel's generation is linked to the desecration of the Temple. Thus the day for a year is linked to the cleansing of the Sanctuary - restoring that which has been defiled.

A day for a day is regular time. A day for year is "longtime."

In Revelation 10 in the setting of the little book of Daniel being opened and the 1844 disappointment, it is declared "Time shall be no longer." Immediately after that declaration, there are instances of prophetic time cited in Revelation 11 and beyond.

Prior to 1844 these periods of time cited in Revelation 11 and beyond were in the day for a year context (long time). After 1844 when these prophetic periods have their final fulfillment, they are not long time because time shall be no longer; therefore they are in real time. They are identifiable and they are linked to literal events that can be historically confirmed.

Thus if Historicism as a pattern is to be of any use in the endtime, it has to allow all the elements within a given prophecy to function as the Lord intended rather than to force the prophecy to change so that it fits the pattern.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
Since Mrs. White places "these last days" after 1844, and Daniel 12 is linked to the rivers, it follows that EVERYTHING in Daniel 12 "from God was given especially for these last days." Thus the 1260 in Daniel 12 is not applicable to the 538-1798 events that are fixed historically before 1844.

And the 1260, 1290 and 1335 in Daniel 12 cannot be understood after 1844 in the context of a day for a year and still apply to the last days (sometime beyond 1844). From any date after 1844, the 1260-years would extend beyond 3104AD.
Besides making reasonable sense, do you see there any other reason why Daniel 12 is literal days instead of symbolic days?


Sin is limited to a 6000-year duration on earth. In vision, after the saints were in heaven it was said:
Originally Posted By: EGW

For six thousand years Satan has struggled to maintain possession of the earth. Now God's original purpose in its creation is accomplished. "The saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." {AH 539.3}


And in my study of the Bible, Spirit of Prophecy, and history, I have learned that they have been fulfilled in recent history. Christ's Advent is even at the door.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


Some further internet searching has answered my questions here:

Obviously His Child/Henry Hills believes that Barack Obama is the antichrist and that his full name, through some creative arbitrary convolution fulfills the 666 ‘number of his name’ claim. Wow!!! to say the least. (Hear these (what I consider) unbiblical teachings and much more in this radio interview ca. 37:20ff. (See also this one). The convoluted conjecture of a supposed reversed Alpha and Omega to make Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II be four kings of Daniel is really creative!

-By the way the link to the Youtube clip was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBxmDkhOXNE

For “distinguishing” clarification, my understanding of the possible refulfillment of prophecies involved a spiritual deepening/involvement of the prior literal fulfillments and not to an complete new and distinct identification. That first occurred between the Local Fulfillments and then the Historical ones, and now with Historical Ones and the current and future Eschatological Ones.


It is clear from Daniel that the wise will understand, so I have no illusion that everyone will understand the word of God or even look at truth more than a superficial glance. There is very little here that I have not already posted on this forum

Re: "Revelation 13 the 7 heads on the papal beast"

I think I started

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126838

Some of the posts are redundant, but the content is worthy of consideration if you don't get lost in the dialog.

Not to long ago a U S Secretary of Something or other was fired for making racist comments. After the fact, it was learned that her comments in the 30-second soundbite had been taken out of context and that she was actually deploring racism in her remarks.

Similarly your comments above are an abridged version of a study that has taken almost 20-years and is still on-going. If you understood it, you most certainly would have presented it differently.

But since God called me to study and He has preserved and led me all the way, He will get the Present Truth to those that are the called and chosen. The book cover of my latest book might interest you.

On 27 April 2011 a killer tornado decapitated the roof of my house that the Lord gave back to the bank a few months earlier. You can read the story online here is the link

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/echoes-of-doomsday/15838912#

click preview under the blue book "Echoes of Doomsday"
Then use the arrow keys at the top to go to the text
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/01/11 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
It is my understanding that the time prophecies do not have a dual application and are also not conditional prophecies.


Hi Daryl,

That misunderstanding is common among SDA's

Originally Posted By: EGW
In the Revelation are portrayed the deep things of God. The very name given to its inspired pages, "the Revelation," contradicts the statement that this is a sealed book. A revelation is something revealed. The Lord Himself revealed to His servant the mysteries contained in this book, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. Its truths are addressed to those living in the last days of this earth's history, as well as to those living in the days of John. Some of the scenes depicted in this prophecy are in the past, some are now taking place; some bring to view the close of the great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven, and some reveal the triumphs and joys of the redeemed in the earth made new. {AA 584.1}


Originally Posted By: EGW
Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated. We must be true and faithful amid the abounding iniquity that prevails. At no period of time are we in such danger as when prosperity seems to crown our efforts. Self must be hidden in God. We are living amid the perils of the last days, and many are insensible to the perils that threaten our world. We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. "Watch, and pray," said Jesus, "for ye know not when the time is." "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of Man cometh at an hour when ye think not." {SpTA07 55.1}


Originally Posted By: EGW
In the history of nations the student of God's word may behold the literal fulfillment of divine prophecy. {CC 250.4}


Originally Posted By: EGW

All these symbolical representations serve a double purpose. From them God's people learn not only that the physical forces of the earth are under the control of the Creator, but also that under His control are the religious movements of the nations. ...Those who read the Scriptures with an intense desire to know what the Spirit saith unto the churches, know that God lives and reigns. {19MR 281.3}
In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}


Note that EGW clearly states "Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]" Revelation 13:5 is - "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

As the 42-months were fulfilled in the 1260-years between 538-1798, EGW clearly states that the final fulfillment will be in the last days.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 12:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
I don't see this as a time prophecy in the same sense as I see the time prophecies of the 70 weeks, 1260 days, 2300 days, etc.



In Put-Out the Light I explain the 70-week prophecy in the endtime, 4 applications for the 2300-days/years (we don't know when they end the last time that is marked by Jesus standing when He has cleansed the sanctuary and states it is done!). And locate the very day of the anointing of the counterfeit prince of the Covenant. Of course now that I understand the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and the 1260, 1290, and the 1335 Days, I need to up date the text. But it is cutting edge as is compared to the pablum that is out there. Should have told you about it yesterday. The publisher had a 25% discount in May.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.

Mark, as I said, in Num. 14:34, 40 days is the prophecy and 40 years, the fulfillment. The same is true in Ezek. 4. 390/40 days is the prophecy and 390/40 years is the fulfillment. There is no inversion.


Interesting observation. Have you figured out where the 390/40 met it fulfillment yet?

In the Bible Amplified book on Ezekiel, the author states that it is still a mystery.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly “told/showed” to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela’s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic ‘(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.’ (=Isa 8:20).


To misinterpret EGW and declare that EGW stated there are no time prophecies after 1844 is to make her contradict herself and the Bible. She gives two examples of time prophecies that are to come about after 1844. I will site the easiest to see:
Re: no prophetic time after 1844

Ellen white is giving an example of prophetic time being repeated in the last days after 1844. So she cannot be saying there is no prophetic time after 1844 since she is giving an example that includes a time that she has also said was fulfilled 538-1798.
Originally Posted By: EGW

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months....

The proof texts cited from EGW to prove that she contradicts herself are out of context - pretexts.

The 2SM 73 (1885) passage is a rebuke to those that are reinterpreting the 2300-days to make them end in 1884. Thus they are moving the pins and waymarks of Bible prophecy.

The 10MR 270 passage in context is correcting an error "The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level" when EGW gave the correct view. Then she clearly links her statement of time prophecy specifically to the day and hour of Christ's appearing. The context clearly differentiates between the world's view of ALL TIME PROPHECY and time prophecy that sets the day and hour of Christ's Coming. "We have not cast away our confidence [because of the 1844 disappointment], neither have we a message dependent upon definite time [our proclamation of the Second Advent is Bible truth not one that is dependent on knowing the exact day and hour of His appearing], but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Saviour, and doing all in our power for the preparation of our fellow men for that great event." Since EGW was clearly correcting the world's error about ALL TIME PROPHECY, it cannot be understood that she was teaching the (all time prophecy) error that she was correcting. "I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving." {LS80 221.1}

And the 7BC 971 (1900) about "definite time" is also removed from its context. SDA's once preached that a text removed from its context is a pretext. "After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." {7BC 971.7} As noted EGW is not talking about ALL PROPHETIC TIME but the the tracing of the period of prophetic time to the Advent of Jesus in 1844.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.


The strongest Biblical/Spiritual evidence that the time elements in prophecies will not be literally fulfilled after 1844 is what God directly &#147;told/showed&#148; to EGW. Indeed, this was given as direct light on what is to be understood in the statement in Rev 10:6b. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall from the SOP anytime when a Biblical passage was directly, and so pointedly interpreted by God. Just think of all the debate that would have saved during the 1888 issue if that had been so pointedly and timely done then. So either here EGW is lying in her many statements claiming this direct revelation (E.g., 2SM 73 (1885), 10MR 270 (1888); 272 (1891); 7BC 971 (1900); cf. LDE 35-36; RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12; cf. RH, Nov. 22, 1892 par. 7.), or what she said is indeed the explicit, injunctively stated will of God. I do not understand why you continue in your claim, which is based merely on supposition which have actually shown to be invalid by Rosangela&#146;s point (cf. e.g., Post #133653), and just ignore/not address those clear direct revelation statements by EGW. To me you are only acting against clear Biblical, Spiritual and Prophetic &#145;(God-stipulated) Law, Testimony and Light.&#146; (=Isa 8:20).


NJK,

Look more carefully at Mrs. White's statements relative to times after 1844. It may be that Mark sees something that you do not see. Her statements seem clear relative to time and 1844, I agree with that. But what exactly do they address?

It is my understanding based on rather extensive reading of those statements of hers that the following two points are true of all of the "prophetic time is no more" type statements which she makes:

1) She specifies this always for prophecies upon "definite time;" and
2) She is speaking always in terms of "second advent" prophecies.

In other words, the "prophetic time is no more after 1844" only applies to time prophecies which have a "definite time" (such as the Oct. 22, 1844 date had), and also to prophecies which would seek to predict Jesus' coming (as the Oct. 22, 1844 date did). After that date, there were to be no more such prophecies. In other words, the Oct. 22 date for the second coming was ordained to be preached by God, who even held His hand over a mistake in Miller's figures, but that was to be the last such prophecy upon "definite time" which would seek to predict the Lord's coming.

This does not, however, remove the possibility for prophecies upon "indefinite time," in fact, the very fact that Mrs. White is so careful to specify each time that she is speaking of "definite time" opens the door necessarily to the fact that there will be other prophecies upon less-exact times that should come. Furthermore, it would seem reasonable to expect prophecies that did not point to Jesus' coming might still be valid, even if time based and/or having specific dates.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You are close. "definite time" and "prophetic time" are used in the Spirit of Prophecy to specify the time of Christ's Advent in 1844. There are time prophecies after 1844 that are both definite and specific, but there is never to be a prophecy that will give the day of Christ's coming as October 1844. (That is until God declares the day and hour to the waiting saints in peels of thunder.)
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Mark, as the above EGW quotes show, EGW did not endorse the reapplying of the 1335 days (Dan 12:12). I would natrually, comprehensively understand that this also applies to the closely related 1290 days (Dan 12:11). EGW believe that both of these time elements/prophecies were already completed/fullfilled in 1843 and 1798 respectively. To me this is what she inclusively intended in her ‘longest of these prophecies’ statement.

The mention of the ‘time, times and half a time’ (Dan 12:7) seems to me, in context, to be a direct reference to the historical period of Catholic dominance ad persecutions 538-1798 (=Dan 7:25). It is only because the second coming did not occur in 1844 as it could and should have, that that prophesied Second Coming ending (Dan 12:1-3) did not immediately occur/transpire then.

Furthermore, Daniel was overhearing in this ca. 536 B.C. conversation one asking about the fulfillment of these prophecies. (Dan 12:6), To which another angel responded by restating the indicative historical time period of the 1260 days (Dan 12:7 = Dan 7:25). Daniel however did not understand these times (Dan 12:8-10 = vss. 3, 4).

So I exegetically see that the mention of the ‘1260 days’ in vs. 7 is only a reference to the historical period of persecution of Dan 7:25 and not another post 1798/1844 timed period for the persecutions that will occur, indeed when Dan 11:40-12:3 will then be fulfilled.



Does EGW contradict herself here?

Please note that when speaking of the 1335-days EGW accepted that they were fulfilled and she places them in the LAST DAYS and links them to the time when Satan is blinding the eyes (of God's people).

Originally Posted By: EGW

May the Lord help you to understand His Word. If you will heed and practise this Word, you will become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Let our ministers and teachers seek knowledge from the one true source. Let them seek the Lord with much prayer, earnestly searching His Word to find the hidden treasure. Now, just now, is the golden opportunity to understand the truths of the Word, and let this opportunity be improved by all. Let the book of Daniel be read, and its instruction heeded. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 8}
Originally Posted By: EGW

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 9}
Originally Posted By: EGW

Daniel is today standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever." {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 10}
Originally Posted By: EGW

These words present the work that we are to do in these last days. We are not one-half awake. We have not the power that is essential to the doing of the work that must be done. We must come into life, come into union. Now, just now, we must stand in that position where repentance and pardon shall be the striking features of our work. There must be no quarrelling. It is too late to engage with Satan in his work of blinding eyes. It is too late to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. {AUCR, March 11, 1907 par. 11}


Again please note the LAST DAYS context:
Originally Posted By: EGW

In his vision of the last days Daniel inquired, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days" [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days. {1SAT 225.5}
Originally Posted By: EGW

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" [Daniel 12:1-4].--Manuscript 50, 1893, September, 1893. (MR 900.33) {1SAT 226.1}


Some may be tempted to assume that the 1335-days are not for the last days, but to be understood in the last days. That view is as Satan would desire it to be, but it contradicts EGW's statement that the light "Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days."

Satan is a shrewed foe. Has he stopped trying to bring error into the Church?
Originally Posted By: EGW

At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. {3SM 31.4}

If the ministers and doctors were doing the work of bringing errors into the church when the prophet was alive, did that process miraculously stop after her death?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 03:02 AM

His child, I already responded to these arguments of yours See Post #133952. Just repeating them doesn’t make them so.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 03:03 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
It is clear from Daniel that the wise will understand,


Seriously, constructively yet frankly speaking Henry, “Wisdom” is transparently and objectively demonstrated and proven and is rooted/derived from actual Truth. So unless your interpretations/views can pass this Truth test, then there is no need to jump to a “Wise One” self-knighting

Originally Posted By: His child
so I have no illusion that everyone will understand the word of God or even look at truth more than a superficial glance.


For the reason, I state below, I am actually seeing your interpretations as being “superficial”, spiritually speaking. Like most people who are saying that the end is here, e.g., David Gates, see my detailed commentary on him, his views and his ministry here, you “expediently” sacrifice proper and accurate factualization and Biblical exegesis in order to have a timely fulfillment.

Originally Posted By: His child
There is very little here that I have not already posted on this forum

Re: "Revelation 13 the 7 heads on the papal beast"

I think I started

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126838

Some of the posts are redundant, but the content is worthy of consideration if you don't get lost in the dialog.


I may look through that discussion in some detail however your Bible study appraoch and resulting conclusion which I have seen thus far, including the above radio interviews do not impress me as being Biblical.

Originally Posted By: His child
Not to long ago a U S Secretary of Something or other was fired for making racist comments. After the fact, it was learned that her comments in the 30-second soundbite had been taken out of context and that she was actually deploring racism in her remarks.


I do recall that news story.

Originally Posted By: His child
Similarly your comments above are an abridged version of a study that has taken almost 20-years and is still on-going. If you understood it, you most certainly would have presented it differently.


I listened to your radio interview in detail. Take it as a warning, but I am sure many people would have come to the same succinct understanding and conclusion as above. There just is not spiritual substance to your view. To me it is like empty (spiritual) calories. Your forced attempt to have all Daniel and Revelation prophecies refulfilled and that with time seems uncalled for and contrived to me.

Originally Posted By: His child
But since God called me to study and He has preserved and led me all the way, He will get the Present Truth to those that are the called and chosen.


If your read my recounted experience over especially the past 15+ years (i.e., since (Net) 1996), (see here) you’ll see that I also make the same understood statement of being led by God in my present research, writing & ministry work. I have no problem per se of people making such claims, per se, probably out of experiential empathy, however as I showed with David Gate in that blog post, such a claim is Biblically ascertainable/verifiable. The proof is always in the fruits and if God is indeed leading you to present Biblical truth then I should not have any problem having you views easily, clearly and readily proven to be Biblical. However in just this thread, your dating of Ezra’s journey does not pass a Truth test.

And, as a personal advice, from lessons learned in my own experience in research and writing and other, indeed as repeatedly seen in the Bible, both with groups and individuals, just because God calls someone that does not suddenly make them infallible, incapable of doing anything wrong or beyond correction. As I understand it, this “elected”/called has the added duty, burden and responsibility to make their ‘calling and election sure’. As recounted from my experience, when I felt that God was calling me to the ministry, even beyond formal SDA pastoring, I did not have much, if actually any, Scholarly Biblical knowledge beyond just what was said in my NKJV and a concordance. However as my aim was to share Bible truths with non-SDA, I put myself in their shoes and everytime I got to something I did not see was transparently proven, I made it my duty to dig deeper until I arrived at the concrete truth. It has been quite a learning experience. Key to all of this and by God’s guidance was going to Andrews University where I could access their great Seminary Library as well as the more voluminous one at the nearby Notre Dame University when Andrews did not have a resource. So, as I gather you live near Southern Adventist University, I would recommend that you engage in deepening/verifying/validating/substantiating your studies with some of the great resources that it has. (I have visited their Library in the past. Also browsed through it online).

All this to say, and I see signs that you are willing to do the needed work when you discover its necessity, that God does not call us to remain where we were when he called us, including intellectually. And, as seen with the unlearned EGW, if God calls someone to do a work, it is because He saw that this person potentially can fully and properly accomplish their given task. For starters, as you write on the prophecies of Daniel, I recommend the Owusu-Antwi book as it is a great launching pad into deeper scholarly work, as I experienced myself.

As I see it, if you keep asking and duly properly answering the question “why” in Biblical Research, and always give the benefit of the doubt/deference to God, you end up with the concrete Biblical Truth.

Originally Posted By: His child
The book cover of my latest book might interest you.


Interesting however I would need to see if it and its substantiating details point to a Biblical conclusion.

In regard to Revelation 7' Heads, I have found this rev. 17 Biblical study [36:40ff] by New Zealand SDA Daniel Pel [http://livingwater.no/english/Audio/Revelationseminar6.mp3] to be quite Biblical in that he is both not glibly/surfacely/superficially regarding/looking for a (beast) head as a literal head, but along the symbolic lines of a “power” which I’ll add to be a “controlling mentality”, and he also is rightly looking for the End Time fulfillments from the Historical fulfillment and not entirely new and quasi-arbitrary fulfillment.

By the way, and seriously, your prophetic studies and conclusion strike me as Dispensationalist Christian sensationalist presentations. I.e., As “Fast Food” Prophetic fulfillment vs. a healthy, choicely prepared and well cooked, Biblical “meal”.

Originally Posted By: His child
On 27 April 2011 a killer tornado decapitated the roof of my house that the Lord gave back to the bank a few months earlier. You can read the story online here is the link

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/echoes-of-doomsday/15838912#

click preview under the blue book "Echoes of Doomsday"
Then use the arrow keys at the top to go to the text


I did read your story before and despite the fact that, unless God actively/targetedly did this tornado event in Alabama/Tennessee, (which I don’t see a extraordinary reason for), and unless there is a meteorological way to see that a tornado will form months in advance and also know its precise path, given my Biblical understanding on God and the Future leads me to understand that this was not necessarily a God warned/preempted development, though a general warning could apply here if weather condition allowed God to see that a tornado would form in your area, however that would actually require that you would have been told/shown in advance to leave that “path of a future tornado house”. I would notwithstandingly say that if this was a preemptive saving action by God, it does not automatically mean that you are right. That is something that is concretely and independently demonstrated by verifiable Biblical facts and sound Biblical conclusion.

(Along these lines, my sister who live in that area was credited, to what due credit reality I am not sure, by her hospital co-worker for saving them from destructions during that tornado storm as when they all saw a tornado coming right at them, she prayed out loud for God to spare them and the tornado ended up changing course.)

Nothing personal here, I just think/see/believe that you could do much more/better.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 03:05 AM

His Child, those are good EGW quotes on the refulfillment of prophecies in Post #133976 however for the reasons stated in this thread, I do not see that she also include time elements in the refulfillments. I also do not defaultly see that every single prophecy needs to be refulfilled. For your claim in regards to the 70 Weeks in Post #133977, as there is only one Christ/Messiah, you’ll need Jesus to die again!?? There is also no intermediary events in the related 2300 days except for the end which only is indicating when the Sanctuary will begin to be cleansed from GC defilements. I don’t see a Spiritual/Theological reason why it needs to be refulfilled. This Spiritual/Theological “necessity” is what guides my view on prophecies that are likely to be refulfilled and not a blanket assumption that every single one must be. As seen in the partial fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse first in ca. 70 A.D. and then later also partially in the late 1700's early-mid 1800's a refulfillment needs only to involve pertinently applicable segments of it, and not necessarily every element, especially now the time elements.

The key to all of this, as seen in Church History is to seek to do what God expects of us and adhere to, and advancing in, God Light of Truth. (Cf. Dan 12:10; cf. 3, 4). The applicable portions of prophecies will then be automatically fulfilled by/through God’s guidance.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 03:06 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
To misinterpret EGW and declare that EGW stated there are no time prophecies after 1844 is to make her contradict herself and the Bible. She gives two examples of time prophecies that are to come about after 1844. I will site the easiest to see:
Re: no prophetic time after 1844

Ellen white is giving an example of prophetic time being repeated in the last days after 1844. So she cannot be saying there is no prophetic time after 1844 since she is giving an example that includes a time that she has also said was fulfilled 538-1798.


I had already explained why I don’t see EGW’s mentioning of a prophecy that has a time element as a belief that the time element in it is to be refulfilled. Read on and see my response.

Originally Posted By: His child
The proof texts cited from EGW to prove that she contradicts herself are out of context - pretexts.

The 2SM 73 (1885) passage is a rebuke to those that are reinterpreting the 2300-days to make them end in 1884. Thus they are moving the pins and waymarks of Bible prophecy.


I had also already explained the 2SM 73 (1885) “1884" claim. It involved 40 years of probation and not the 2300 days. You need to substantiate your claim that it involves the 2300 days.

Originally Posted By: His child
The 10MR 270 passage in context is correcting an error "The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level" when EGW gave the correct view. Then she clearly links her statement of time prophecy specifically to the day and hour of Christ's appearing. The context clearly differentiates between the world's view of ALL TIME PROPHECY and time prophecy that sets the day and hour of Christ's Coming. "We have not cast away our confidence [because of the 1844 disappointment], neither have we a message dependent upon definite time [our proclamation of the Second Advent is Bible truth not one that is dependent on knowing the exact day and hour of His appearing], but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Saviour, and doing all in our power for the preparation of our fellow men for that great event." Since EGW was clearly correcting the world's error about ALL TIME PROPHECY, it cannot be understood that she was teaching the (all time prophecy) error that she was correcting. "I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving." {LS80 221.1}


In my expounding on all EGW quotes that I found on this issue and your view of ‘other times than the Second Coming’s’ I indeed I had left out this 10MR 270 quote as it relates to the Second Coming. If you are going to make delayed answers, you need to first read through the end of the thread before replying as you are readdressing already dealt with issues.

Originally Posted By: His child
And the 7BC 971 (1900) about "definite time" is also removed from its context. SDA's once preached that a text removed from its context is a pretext. "After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." {7BC 971.7} As noted EGW is not talking about ALL PROPHETIC TIME but the the tracing of the period of prophetic time to the Advent of Jesus in 1844.


As I already said and in more detail, you need to explain why EGW says “the longest reckoning” among other things.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 04:36 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnessed in the world. By their fulfilment in these last days, they will explain themselves. {KC 105.2}

. . . If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?


Those are more examples kland of statements that we find hard to accept as they read.

But notice what happens if I insert two words into her quote.
Quote:
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other.. . These prophecies are to be [the two] witnesses in the world. By their fulfilment in these last days, they will explain themselves.


That insertion seems consistent with other SOP statements that Daniel is to stand in his lot along with John at the end.

Here's another quote that we should all humbly bare in mind.
Quote:
Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for history will be repeated. . . . We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. {TM 116.3}

Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
I'm not aware where EGW applied the 1335 days. Could you quote where she applied 1335 days to a time other than the future?

She applied the 1335 to the past as fulfilled. She wrote:

Quote:
One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged. {16MR 208.3}

"the 1335 days were ended"


EGW Estates comment
Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. Here is what I have sent to others who asked this question:

Other than in places where Mrs. White quotes a longer passage in Daniel which includes mention of the 1335 days, I know of only one reference to the 1335 days in her writings, though it appears in several places in her published writings (and on the CD-ROM). Here it is:



Manuscript Releases Volume Sixteen, p. 208

Title: To the Church in Brother Hastings' House



One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged.



This comes from Ellen G. White's Letter 28, 1850. She did not elaborate further here on the matter of the 1335 days.



The question for us is, Is the reference to the 1335 days part of the list of errors of Brother Hewit, or is it a correction to one of those errors? In other words, do we read the sentence as, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, [including the one] that the 1335 days were ended . . .", or do we read it as, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, [and] that the 1335 days were ended . . ."? If we understand her statement the first way, she is saying that in 1850 the 1335 days were not yet ended. If we take her statement the second way, she is asserting that they were already ended. Which way is it?



I believe that we should understand this statement in the second of the two ways--as an assertion from her that the 1335 days were already ended. I base this belief on two lines of evidence. First, a quick scan of the "Words of the Pioneers" database on our CD-ROM, which gives us convenient access to the writings of many other early Adventists (Seventh-day and otherwise), revealed that William Miller and Uriah Smith both taught that the 1335 days began at the same time as the 1290 days, that is, in AD 508. This would bring them to a close in the year 1843-1844. James White affirmed the same interpretation in the Review and Herald in the 1850s (and perhaps beyond, but the "Words of the Pioneers" thus far only takes the Review to 1863). So both before and after this statement by Mrs. White in 1850, prominent leaders in the Advent movement, including her own husband, were saying that the 1335 years had ended. Shall we understand Mrs. White, then, to be calling this belief an error? If so, why didn't she rebuke it in James White and in Uriah Smith?



Second, we have Mrs. White's own statements about prophetic time. Three of the most relevant appear together in the recent compilation, "Last Day Events," pp. 35-36. Here they are:



No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844



I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.--2SM 73 (1885).

Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming.--10MR 270 (1888).

The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Rev. 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.--7BC 971 (1900).



In light of these two lines of evidence, I believe we are on firm ground if we read Mrs. White's statement in 1850 as affirming, not denying, that the 1335 years had ended.



I hope you will find this helpful. Thank you for writing. God bless.



--------

William Fagal
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Sabbath blessings. I have some extra time I wasn't expecting.

NJK, the Lord advised both us and the early church to study the abomination of desolation in Daniel. Why? What were the results of the study of Daniel's abomination in the early church? What did they conclude? Didn't their study tell them when to flee? Is it a large leap that His counsel to study the abomination in Daniel is the same for our time? If so, is it wise disassociating the time elements of these prophecies from the context?

True, when these prophecies were first fulfilled in 70 AD, there was no time element. But that can be viewed in two ways: It can be viewed as support for a time-free end time application, or it can be viewed as support for taking the entire prophecy together because the time elements have never been fulfilled in the end-time context. We'd agree that these prophecies are especially for the final generation, right?

It's also true that the 1260 days mentioned in a number of places were fulfilled in the dark ages but according the Christ's statements and other scripture, the abomination of desolation applies especially to the end, not to the dark ages. Are we safe in assuming that this most important application - to the final generation - can be severed from its time elements? What scriptural authority do we have to sever elements of this prophecy from its most important application?

NJK, I believe in outpost ministry. But even those in remote outposts will still have to flee. I admit I'm not sure myself how to apply the time elements. I'm studying them. The actual flight may be at the end of the 1260 days. This is what I tend to think. That's why understanding when the prophecy begins could be a matter of life and death.

On a related topic, can you tell me in simple words that all our readers can understand why you think Revelation 11 applies to leaders and who the two witnesses are? I've said above, I think the two witnesses are those who give the measuring/three angel's messages. You're saying the measuring message is for the leaders, right? Don't John's instructions to measure the temple and those who worship there include the entire church - that is all who take the name of Christ? What group is in the outer court that John is told not to measure?

But regarding EGW's prohibitions on time setting, I have addressed that in other posts but you don't see it the same way which is fine. However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views. smile





This is a great post.

The two witnesses in the endtime are Daniel and Revelation.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves. {7BC 949.6}


My study has identified the endtime fulfillment of the literal 1260, 1290, and 1335 days. And we are now in the time of trouble spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 01:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. {10MR 270 (1888)}


But those waiting and watching saints in 1888 were totally unprepared for the message of Righteousness by faith when it came. Thus we are warned to be cautious. And this quote is referring not to all prophecies relating to a definite time, but specifically to a definite time to intervene between 1844 that gives the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
2. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6 this has been erroneously added to her comment AFTER THIS PERIOD OF TIME REFERS TO THE 2300-DAYS], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971 (1900)}

The term "definite time" as used by EGW refers to the hour of Christ's Advent not ALL TIME PROPHECY.
Originally Posted By: EGW

The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door. {10MR 270.1}

"I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving." {LS80 221.1}

In the context above she was reproving the world that placed all time proclamation on the same level and she was distinguishing that from the specific time proclamation that identifies the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
3. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told his disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that he will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off his coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. {RH, March 22, 1892}


The quote above omits the context "in regard to a man who was setting time in 1884, and sending broadcast his arguments to prove his theories. The report of what he was doing was brought to me at the Jackson, Mich., camp-meeting, and I told the people they need not take heed to this man's theory; for the event he predicted would not take place. The times and the seasons God has put in his own power, and why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if he did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement. "

mm, point #3 is specific counsel given regarding a man that was setting dates in 1884. He was in error. But to extrapolate this counsel from its setting and apply it to every person in every age is a pretext. Though we do not know the day and the hour, from Bible study, we can know that the abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel has been set up, Pope Benedict XVI is the last pope identified in Bible prophecy, Mr. Obama is identified in Bible prophecy as the last king from the earth (Daniel 7:17) and that the time of trouble has begun spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

But when this counsel is wrenched from its setting and presented as it is here, it is akin to crying "peace and safety" on the eve of sudden destruction. It is a false peace that is not of God, but that leads to the sleep of eternal death.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Insights like the ones posted above make it difficult to believe the Bible contains time prophecies that will be fulfilled sometime after 1844 and sometime before Jesus returns. To what purpose would they serve? Since we cannot know Jesus will return in "one, two, or five years" what good would it do us to know a specified period of time (1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days) has finished fulfilling? Seems to me we would be no better off than knowing the 1260 and 2300 days ended in 1798 and 1844. That is, knowing those dates for the last 150 years hasn't helped us as it relates to the nearness of Jesus' second coming.


In another post I showed that EGW states the 42-months of Rev 13 were fulfilled in the past and the final fulfillment is to come in the last days. That is an instant of EGW citing definite time to intervene between 1844 and Christ's Advent. And above I have shown that she corrected the world's error of lumping all time prophecy together and that she separates time prophecy relating to the Second Advent of Christ from other time prophecies. So when we lump together what she separates, that action makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict itself and the Bible.

The one instance where she cites a time prophecy that is to be applied after 1844 proves that she was not saying ALL TIME PROPHECY STOPPED IN 1844

The 3rd angel's message is not hung of time, but it is time to understand the Present Truth of this hour to give the right warning at the right time. The parable of the 10 virgins shows that 5 of the virgins did not wake in time. When it was too late they saw what their faith needed to see sooner. But for them it was too late!



De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.


As I understand the fulfillment of Bible prophecy it is according to a sequential pattern, irrespective of time elements that may or may not be present. And that is all due to a inherent spiritual cause and effect order and also a desired order in which God desires for things to develop and be dealt with. And, as shown in this post, eve the SOP Final Events prophecies follow this sequential template found in the intricately structured book of revelation as EGW’s revelation on the Shaking perfectly follows the cross-sectional disposition of Revelation’s prophecies which are all dealing with various aspects of the Remnant Work/Church.

So, though I do not believe that any prophecy will be refulfilled with the involvement of definite time, I do see that the Historical events that were involved in the fulfilling of the (1) 1260 [538-1798]; (2) 1290 [508-1798]; and (3) 1335 [508-1843] days will have a future, eschatological re-occurrence. That is namely and respectively:
(1) there will again be an organized period of various oppositions to work [= 538-1798];
(2) that period will be preceded by decided and seemingly non-related/non-religious based organizational efforts [= 508-538];
(3) there will be a relatively brief, post persecution “respite” [=1798-1843]
(4) then there will be a very brief, post close of probation period that mirrors a “living” without an intercessor time” [= 1843-1844]

All this to say, that if one knows the time when the period of 1260days = 42 months will take place, they can easily figure out when the Second Coming should typologically occur.

Also, as seen inn the Historical Fulfillement of the 1260 days, [538-1798] there were not persecutions by the Catholic Church throughout. They started with the Inquisitions around the 12th century. (I believe this curtailing of persecutions is all in fulfillment of Matt 24:32 “for the sake of the elect.”) So the 1260 days involve much more than persecutions. And I see these various events to have clearly been listed in the prophecy of Dan 7 in vss. 8b|20b-21|25. This is namely (and not necessarily in order) to:

-Papal Establishment - “speak out against the Most High”
-Changes in Religious Time and Laws - vs. 10 Commandments
-Persecution of non-conformers

In the same way, a (non-definite time) of 1260days/42 months in the future will involve period for these three distinct actions. (cf. Rev 13:3-7) So, as I see it even believing that this will be a definite time of 3.5 years, would not indicate either when actual persecutions would begin nor how long they would last since the could start and end at any time during that period. Just like Catholic done persecution in Church History was from ca. The 1100's-1600's. That indeed led to the mass exodus for North America starting around the 1640's. (cf. Rev 12:15, 16|13:11a) So long before that prophecy’s time end of 1798.

Again, my view is those time mentions in Revelation in prophecies that will be eschatologically fulfilled are referential indicators to the Historical fulfillment to show what to expect to transpire. So just like these time prophecies started in History with definite movement to establish the Catholic Church as a more authoritative and far reaching temporal power, (ca. 508 [1290&1335]), it would be expected that those time prophecies would begin to occur when the Modern Catholic Church will begin to make moves to exercise more authoritative temporal and that through its members in various countries. Indeed this can be peacefully and even quite fairly, democratically be done. Once its establish and has removed any remaining opposing world powers as with the historical achievements by 538, it will then begin to take its various actions religiously through that obtained civil power. It is sometime during that time, when those who truly observe God’s Law and Sabbath will be standing in the way of its total sway of power and even declared to be dangerous that persecutions will begin. I have not done the detailing/ “template-filling” of the rest of these Final Events however, I tentatively see that the falling of the Last Plagues will be in the equivalent time of the Historical 1798-1843 period and then then will come the utter end. [=1843-1844].

So as I see it, even if the 1260/42 month period is figured out, if it was actually applicable, it still would not be known when exactly the persecutions would begin or even end. The key is to have heeded SOP counsels long before the 508 A.D. mirroring establishment movement.

Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

Hope all this is helpful.


Originally Posted By: EGW
This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 01:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
His Child, I am totally convinced you will be as disappointed as was Harold Camping. When President Obama and Pope Benedict leave office before Jesus returns I hope you will not give up on Jesus.


I would rather be disappointed like William Miller, than to be disappointed as the antediluvians in Noah's day. But Jesus did say that it would be as it was in the Days of Noe. And He also gave the parable of the 10 Virgins to tell us that some will wake up TOO LATE.

I have studied to show myself approved of God rightly handling the word of truth and telling all who will listen. As a watchman, I have given the Present Truth trumpet the right sound at the right hour. But it is up to those who have ears to hear. LET THEM HEAR, but if they will not, their blood will be on their own heads as it is written, the watchman will be clear.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/02/11 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: kland

If Ellen White is writing after 1843, and if there are prophecies somewhere in Daniel which should be understood and witness to the world, and will be fulfilled in these last days, which part of Daniel would she be speaking about? Ellen White said it was the vision of the last days when Daniel inquired, what shall be the end of these things. If the last days were done before she wrote this, how could it be fulfilled in the future?


In Daniel 12 the instruction is given "seal the book" until the time of the end.

The BOOK OF Daniel was sealed.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the Judgment near. {GC88 356.2}


Problem: The kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were understood in the second century AD, 1500-years before Daniel was unsealed. In addition pagan and papal Rome were better understood by Martin Luther and Isaac Newton before 1798.

Thus the meaning of the 4 kingdoms that were understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed were 1)not sealed or 2) not the meaning that was sealed until after 1798.

Actually Daniel was told to 1) shut-up, 2) close-up, and 3)seal the book. Thus the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were part of the sealing process. They confirmed that Daniel was truth from God. But the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were not the meaning that was closed-up and shut-up until after 1798.

Daniel 7 expands and explains Daniel 2. In 7:17 God sent the interpretation: "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

The endtime interpretation is that the "beasts are kings"
In the endtime they are not the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and pagan or papal Rome

Revelation 13 identifies America as the earth-beast

Therefore the beasts from the earth that are 4 kings
are 4 American Presidents.

And that is the easy part.

The difficulty is that since God's people know about the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, they reject light that goes beyond what they know.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.” But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth. “Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.” ...Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for “the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day.”(RH, June 18, 1889 par. 4)
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 10:46 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Quote:
His child: Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC
From Yom Kippur 457 BC 2300-years extend to Yom Kippur 1844

NJK: Although I would generally agree with the fundamental principle that God’s prophecies do applicably and purposely speak in at least some part to every generation of believers since they are given, and thus Ezra would have been motivated by his understanding and reckoning of Daniel’s 2300 day prophecy, to seek to effectuate a Return in order to “beautify” the, by then, already rebuilt temple and make it fully functional (Ezra 7:12-20ff), among other granted powers, I have a technical problem with you claiming that he arrived in Jerusalem 19 days before Yom Kippur. As you had quoted, the Bible says he arrived on the First day of the 5th Month (Ezra 7:8b) the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day of the 7th Month (Lev 16:29). With the Hebrew lunar calender then having ca. 30 days per month, there was ca. 70 days between Ezra’s arrival and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)!??

His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.


I can appreciate/understand your gesture “thanking” to be humble/“honest” here, but all things considered, I am still wondering if you yourself had ever considered/used this “clarification” of yours here. Perhaps you had done so in your book, however, it is because, as shown below, it still does not amount to what the end dates you claim of: “19-days before Yom Kippur 457 BC” (= ca. September 6) that I am seeing that something is still not accurate here.

As seen in the ATS study of the 70 Weeks by Brempong Owusu-Antwi (pp. 295-299), and as it is a historical fact, the Persians (as well as the Jews) reckoned the years of their kings after and accession year period until the calender start of their new year, if applicable, as almost (if not, literally) always, unless the previous king died on exactly the first day, (or would it have to be the day before) their calender’s New Year’s day. For the Persians, New Year’s day was on the First of Nisan (ca. March 15), (as it also was for the Jews, however the Jews reckoned the years of kings according to their fall-to-fall calender which started on Tishri 1 ca. October 15). So here are the possible reckonings for a “Fifth month of Artaxerxes 7th Year, including the fact that, as discussed by Owusu-Antwi, his predecessor Xerxes died on either Dec. 17 or 23/24 in 465 B.C. or Jan 2/3 464 B.C.

-All of these possible death dates, all mean that, for the Persians, Artaxerxes was in his accession, and “0" year from December 465 or January 464 until ca. March 15 (Nisan 1) 464. So his regnal years could only be:

1 - March 464 - March 463
2 - March 463 - March 462
3 - March 462 - March 461
4 - March 461 - March 460
5 - March 460 - March 459
6 - March 459 - March 458 7 - March 458 - March 457

So ‘his first to fifth regnal month’ in his seventh year as you claim would be from ca. March 15, 458 to July 15, 458. That is exactly the same as calender months given the actual Persian method.

To claim that the month began from the month of the death of the preceding king, would not only be in gross contradiction of attested Historical reckoning customs of the Persians, but would still not end up in the date that you claim as it would end on either April 17, 23/24 or May 2/3, and that in 458 B.C. from the following regnal years:

1 - December 465 - December 464
2 - December 464 - December 463
3 - December 463 - December 462
4 - December 462 - December 461
5 - December 461 - December 460
6 - December 460 - December 459
7 - December 459 - December 458

For the Jews, who, as proven, used their fall-to-fall calender, if these years were reckoned both according to that calender and not referring to the number of calender numbers, his pertinent regnal years would be:

1 - September 464 - September 463
2 - September 463 - September 462
3 - September 462 - September 461
4 - September 461 - September 460
5 - September 460 - September 459
6 - September 459 - September 458 7 - September 458 - September 457

And their reckoned date for Ezra’s trip would be from ca. September 15, 458 to January 15, 457 B.C.

If it was their Spring Calender the those supposedly regnal months were the same as their Calender month and thus also a ca. March 15, 457 to July 15, 457 journey.

So in no conceivable reckoning, even non attested ones is a end date of ca. September 6 (and thus started in ca. May 6)

So hence my, still remaining, and even deeper puzzlement in regards to your prophetic reckoning.


speaking of prophetic puzzlement. I believe that when all is said and done my misstatement is easier to clarify than that which I just read. I will let it rest for a while and try to digest it more later.

Thanks for sharing
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book.

...


Originally Posted By: His Child
Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well


Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Who says it is yet to be known? ...


Originally Posted By: EGW
The light that we have upon the third angel’s message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. All in regard to this matter is not yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll, but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord’s command to His servants is “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.” {CTr 350.4}



Originally Posted By: NJK Project
All this to say that (1) presently known technologies are sufficient to enforce the Mark of the Beast. And advance technology was to be crucial to the fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast, then how would it have been fulfilled in EGW’s time, as it could/should have and (2) why doesn’t EGW make indicative details of this in her writings.


EGW says quite a bit about the Mark of the beast that is overlooked and nullified because of some of the very things that you have clearly stated are facts, which are "private interpretations" that have crept into the church since 1844.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Seems to me that this is just a popular notion of non-SDA’s in regards to the Mark of the Beast who indeed spiritually glibly think this is a literal marking and thus must be a barcode or microchip.


Originally Posted By: EGW
The time is upon us when the miracle-working power of the arch deceiver will be more decidedly revealed. And his deceptions will increase in their delusive attraction, so that they will perplex, and if possible, deceive, the very elect. The prince of darkness with his evil angels is working upon the Christian world, inducing those who profess the name of Christ to stand under the banner of darkness, to make war with those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus. An apostate church will unite with the powers of earth and hell to place upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast, and prevail upon the children of God to worship the beast and his image. They will seek to compel them to renounce their allegiance to God's law, and yield homage to the papacy. Then will come the times which will try men's souls; for the confederacy of apostasy will demand that the loyal subjects of God shall renounce the law of Jehovah, and repudiate the truth of his word. Then will the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day. While those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness will stand firm to truth and duty, those who have trusted in their own righteousness will be ranged under the black banner of the prince of darkness. Then it will be seen whether the choice is for Christ or Belial. Those who have been self-distrustful, who have been so circumstanced that they have not dared to face stigma and reproach, will at last openly declare themselves for Christ and his law; while many who have appeared to be flourishing trees, but who have borne no fruit, will go with the multitude to do evil, and will receive the mark of apostasy in the forehead or in the hand. {RH, November 8, 1892 par. 7}

Is not America specifically depicted in prophecy as a power arising from the earth? THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS SAID TO BE something placed "upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast" to control buying and selling.

Originally Posted By: Revelation 13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

And what do you think would fulfill a ‘yet to be known mechanism’, which means to me nothing that exists today in any way? Of course, that claim would mean that we don’t know it yet, but my question is what (more) do you think it would technologically take to enforce the Mark of the Beast today or in the future? (Seriously suggested: “mind reading” abilities? And that even beyond the current ability to tangibly utilize one’s brain wave activity to control things.)


It is so difficult to stay in this conversation. What starts out as a sincere question degenerates into what is coming across as a straw-man argument.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Be sure the Sabbath is a test question, and how you treat this question places you either on God's side or Satan's side. The mark of the beast is to be presented in some shape to every institution and every individual. . . . {3SM 395.4}


Originally Posted By: His child
2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

America will indeed serve to persecute God’s People however that Biblically does not make their President the Antichrist. The Bible is clear that the Second Beast is only acting as the pawn of the First Beast which is and solely and distinctly is, the antichrist. (See Rev 13:12-17). That is all what is symbolically depicted in Rev 17 as a woman (Apostate Church & antichrist) riding a beast (a controlled civil power).


When Revelation 17 is rightly understood, the woman riding on the papal beast is apostate protestantism. That is the religious power that has the reigns, calls the shots, and pushes America to persecute God's people. Thus when the image beast takes up where the papacy left off, the image beast becomes the latter day papacy so to speak.

Originally Posted By: His child
3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Does the Loud Cry period figure as part of your definitely reckoned time, which I assume are all within the literal range of 3.5-3.7years/1260-1335 days? Is yes, then how does the by now, up to 4-4.5+ years/1461-1641+ days fit into your prophetic scenario??

being overwhelmed with all that I study, I have not gotten into that aspect of the study as yet.
Originally Posted By: NJK Project

As I also prophetically understand it, this would imply that the Sealing, Shaking and also the Latter Rain events would have already transpired in the Church. What’s precisely your view in this regards? (I.e./E.g., partial, spiritual and/or personal fulfillments vs. full, quite manifest and corporal fulfillements).


Originally Posted By: His child
The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Is/Was he an SDA? His here cited ‘words/themes to pictures’ associations/identifications don’t suggest so.


His denominational affiliation is not important. The video agrees with what I have presented from the SOP above.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Quote:
His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

Rosangela: There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


On top of the reasons I have posted showing that the reckoning in general is not valid (Post #133953), I also do not see that the claim here from this single verse is conclusive of His child’s claim of “regnal months”, indeed for reasons of being variously both Biblically and Historically “unattested”.


Since further light has come upon that topic, I don't hold that view as stated previously either. By God's grace we move from light to light.

The truth is that Ezra arrived at Jerusalem in time for Yom Kippur and 2300-days fits into the prophetic timeline between Artaxerxes ascension year and the Yom Kippur in question which begins the 2300-years (457 BC- 1843/44). So whether my human language skills stated it exactly precisely as it should have been is not relevant. My misspeaking or linguistic faults, does not change the historical fact, THE LOCAL 2300-DAYS APPLICATION IS VALID. Believe it or not.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 12:30 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
I also agree. For the most part. But no one here is setting a date for Jesus to come. And what if when this "clear event" begins, it will be too late for those who already have an opportunity to know, yet refuse? There is no "putting off".

Originally Posted By: NJK Project


As I understand it, the only way that this occurs is through the fact that the close of probation for SDA’s will occur before the one for the rest of the world. I can only see that this will be during the Sealing of the Church which will be followed by the Shaking. My view in general is that SDA’s have not been advancing with the increasing prophetic light all revolving around the deeper meaning of God’s Sabbath (Isa 58) and its corresponding implications to the Mark of the Beast issue. So while SDA’s think they have it all figured out and e.g., only need to look for the literal passing of a law opposing the letter of the law aspect of the Sabbath, they will miss the actually paramount Spiritual/Fuller Implications and related prophetic developments.

In regards to “putting off”, even only involving non-spiritual/letter-of-the-law predictions as done in EGW’s writings, (though she laid the foundation for the Spiritual understandings. It just was not a present truth for her and her generation), if one has the view that ‘3.5 years of persecution’ must pass before Jesus can return then they obviously not expect him to Return before that. So they are susceptible to miss some “signs” which won’t necessarily be that obvious, if these do not harmonize with their time. False Biblical interpretations/beliefs always lead to some kind of wrong, event fatally deceptive application. That’s what happen to William Miller and led him to reject other more Biblical understandings, and though he will be saved, in the last days, such errors will surely be fully exploited by Satan within his planned overmastering delusion.



Consider this scenario prayerfully


It is simpler than that. The issue is obedience to the commandments of God. In context, in Revelation 13 and 14, God commands everyone not to take the mark of the beast. SDA's reason that since the seal of God is a spiritual settling into the truth, that the Mark of the Beast is a spiritual mark.

But as I posted earlier, the Spirit of Prophecy clearly states that it is receiving something in the hand or forehead. The mechanism to be used for the Mark of the Beast is not yet in place, but since Pope Benedict XVI and President Obama are identified in Bible prophecy as the last in their lines, if either (especially Obama) initiates a mechanism that requires a universal card or biochip to facilitate buying and selling. That is the Mark of the Beast. DO NOT TAKE IT is God's command.

Will it be linked to Sabbath or Sunday? NO. Thus the deception. But after God's people accept the Mark of the Beast because they are deceived to think that because it is not linked to Sabbath worship it is ok, something happens. The benign mechanism that regulates buying and selling gets linked to worship and there is no way to opt out.

Those that did not understand Bible prophecy were deceived. Since it is not possible to have the mark of the Beast and the seal of God at the same time, those that took the Mark of the Beast are lost. But the Christians that knew that this was the Mark of the Beast that did not take it are then confronted with the Sabbath Sunday issue.

If they believe that Sunday is the Sabbath or that it does not matter, they take the card, chip or whatever. If they learn the Sabbath truth and remain faithful, they have victory over the beast and his mark.

It is so important to rightly divide (handle) the word of truth.

Keep God's commandments, all Ten and the command not to take the mark of the beast in the hand or forehead.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His child, I already responded to these arguments of yours See Post #133952. Just repeating them doesn’t make them so.


I was behind and responding to posts in the order that they came up without knowing that you responded. I am sorry that it seems repetitious to you.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 05:21 PM

Quote:
SDA's reason that since the seal of God is a spiritual settling into the truth, that the Mark of the Beast is a spiritual mark.

But as I posted earlier, the Spirit of Prophecy clearly states that it is receiving something in the hand or forehead.
How does one determine if the mark is symbolic or literal?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
His Child, I am totally convinced you will be as disappointed as was Harold Camping. When President Obama and Pope Benedict leave office before Jesus returns I hope you will not give up on Jesus.


I would rather be disappointed like William Miller, than to be disappointed as the antediluvians in Noah's day. But Jesus did say that it would be as it was in the Days of Noe. And He also gave the parable of the 10 Virgins to tell us that some will wake up TOO LATE.

I have studied to show myself approved of God rightly handling the word of truth and telling all who will listen. As a watchman, I have given the Present Truth trumpet the right sound at the right hour. But it is up to those who have ears to hear. LET THEM HEAR, but if they will not, their blood will be on their own heads as it is written, the watchman will be clear.


Thank you. I'm happy to know you will remain faithful to Jesus should your interpretation of prophecy fail to fulfill. President Obama will, mostly likely, be leaving office 20 Jan 2013. If he isn't reelected is that date the last day your interpretation of prophecy can be fulfilled? Or, do you have backup plan to accommodate time beyond the end of President Obama's presidency? Also, what would you say if Pope Benedict should die or be replaced before 20 Jan 2013?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/03/11 06:44 PM

Or impeached? Probably not likely.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:14 AM


Originally Posted By: His child
The two witnesses in the endtime are Daniel and Revelation.

Originally Posted By: SOP
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves. {7BC 949.6}


Why is this so??? Because there are: ‘2 books’ and EGW mentions ‘witnesses”?? If EGW had this understanding I think she would have plainly said so herself. I.e., “The two witnesses in the endtime are Daniel and Revelation.”. Prophetic interpretation is not to be dealt with by mere (English) word associations as if the Bible is a crossword puzzle. As stated before, this is main vibe that I get from your interpretations. I usually see this glib/surface “deducing” from Futurist-Dispensationalists (ala. Jack Van Impe) The exegetical aspects involved in the language as well as the Spiritual implication in the symbols are what are to be taken into consideration. Case in point, the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11 have a proactive prophetic role vs. the journalistic one that the books of Daniel and Revelation have. Indeed the book of Revelation is only relating what the Two Witnesses will do.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
EGW: “This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns....”


That still does not make this second beast the antichrist, just its civil arm/power. The first beast will be dictating what the ‘God/Christ replacing’ religious laws will be. Indeed by enforcing a non-Biblical Sabbath, (among other things), as the Catholic Church says, Protestants are just uphold what they themselves have ‘changed and established’, (or “thought to change and establish”) as/for the law of God.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:16 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
I would rather be disappointed like William Miller, than to be disappointed as the antediluvians in Noah's day.


I understand your intended ‘better safe than sorry’ expression here, nonetheless, in the end, for those who will live through the decisive final events, one cannot afford to be “disappointed like William Miller” because that led him to reject the Biblical/True Light on the Midnight Cry, The Precise Seventh Month Movement/Truth, the Sanctuary Truth, The Spirit of Prophecy, The Seventh-day Sabbath, The Mark of the Beast Truth, etc. Perhaps he placed too much importance in “definite time” neglecting the proper understanding of the Spiritual elements involved as those who came to discover these truths went on to do, starting right after the Spring 1844 disappointment.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
The difficulty is that since God's people know about the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, they reject light that goes beyond what they know.


When you understand both the religious/GC reasons why God acted to set up (cf. Dan 2:21) these world powers to rule the world that affected Israel and also how these free world powers left a lasting impact of the world, you will see how they tangibly prophetically contribute to our present times. Pointedly:

World Power: God’s Purpose - Power’s GC “Legacy”

Babylon: God’s Instrument to Punish Israel - Religious Falsehood and Intolerance

Medo-Persia: Religious Freedom/Tolerance/Respect - Whimsical Legislating

Greece: Precise and most complete language system - Democracy & Humanistic Culture

Rome: Structured Government and Strong Law and Order - Moral Depravity and Abusive Power

So a claim to/of an eschatological (re-)fulfillment that does not keep these Spiritual aspects from the past fulfillment is defaulty of course. At the very least you need to look to world forces/powers that continue to reflect the God-opposing/undermining “Legacies” above.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
speaking of prophetic puzzlement.


That is only because you are not familiar with, and/or do not understand, these exegetical facts which are incontrovertible to having an actually valid prophetic interpretation.

Originally Posted By: His child
I believe that when all is said and done my misstatement is easier to clarify than that which I just read.


Simplicity does not automatically mean truth. And I could have also “simply” stated my concluding date ranges without giving the underlying historical fact and explanation.

And if one is dealing with/speaking of reality, the Historical and Scientific reality have, and can only be taken into consideration. As an illustration: if one is telling an fantastical tale about a person saving a herd of elephants by safely guiding them over a deep/steep and wide valley gorge with a raging river flowing through it, they could just say that this guide just taught these elephants how to flap their ears like “Dumbo” and they were able to fly over. If they are telling a realistic/true-to-life story, then they’ll have to relate how e.g., they were able to build, e.g., an Airbus A380 plane with freighter configuration and transport the elephants over. And if actually historical, they’ll have to give the precise details of how this was done.

All this to say that your claim for Ezra’s travel, though “simple” is actually fictional/fantastical given the actual realistic and also Historical facts in regards to the reckoning of Artaxerxes reign. As you indicate below, you’ll indeed need to get up to speed on those facts. There is no way around this if you want to publish things that will pass the test and scrutiny of validity, let alone be proclaiming any (prophetic) truth.

Originally Posted By: His child
I will let it rest for a while and try to digest it more later.


(Unfortunately, I don’t see that Southern’s McKee Library has a copy of that above mentioned very good 70 Weeks book.)

Originally Posted By: His child
Thanks for sharing


Hope you will make good/due use of these facts!
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:27 AM


Quote:
NJK: His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related Youtube clip for your “Put out the Light” book....

His Child: Interesting questions.

His Child: 1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well

NJK: Who says it is yet to be known? ...

His child:
Originally Posted By: SOP CTr 350.4
The light that we have upon the third angel’s message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. All in regard to this matter is not yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll, but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord’s command to His servants is “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.”


Interesting that you should mention this SOP statement as your defense. I have done an entire study as to pointed what ‘unrolling scroll’ she is alluding to and have come to an entirely and spiritual conclusion vs. your apparent surface belief that this is meaning that ‘physical/technological methods to implement the Mark of the Beast are yet to be known.’ (See this blog post).

Quote:
NJK: All this to say that (1) presently known technologies are sufficient to enforce the Mark of the Beast. And advance technology was to be crucial to the fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast, then how would it have been fulfilled in EGW’s time, as it could/should have and (2) why doesn’t EGW make indicative details of this in her writings.

His child: EGW says quite a bit about the Mark of the beast that is overlooked and nullified because of some of the very things that you have clearly stated are facts, which are "private interpretations" that have crept into the church since 1844.


I don’t see/know so. Do at least list the references to what you are thinking of here from her writings so your denunciatory claim can be transparently demonstrated/verified.

Quote:
NJK: Seems to me that this is just a popular notion of non-SDA’s in regards to the Mark of the Beast who indeed spiritually glibly think this is a literal marking and thus must be a barcode or microchip.

His child:
Originally Posted By: SOP RH, November 8, 1892 par. 7
The time is upon us when the miracle-working power of the arch deceiver will be more decidedly revealed. And his deceptions will increase in their delusive attraction, so that they will perplex, and if possible, deceive, the very elect. The prince of darkness with his evil angels is working upon the Christian world, inducing those who profess the name of Christ to stand under the banner of darkness, to make war with those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus. An apostate church will unite with the powers of earth and hell to place upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast, and prevail upon the children of God to worship the beast and his image. They will seek to compel them to renounce their allegiance to God's law, and yield homage to the papacy. Then will come the times which will try men's souls; for the confederacy of apostasy will demand that the loyal subjects of God shall renounce the law of Jehovah, and repudiate the truth of his word. Then will the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day. While those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness will stand firm to truth and duty, those who have trusted in their own righteousness will be ranged under the black banner of the prince of darkness. Then it will be seen whether the choice is for Christ or Belial. Those who have been self-distrustful, who have been so circumstanced that they have not dared to face stigma and reproach, will at last openly declare themselves for Christ and his law; while many who have appeared to be flourishing trees, but who have borne no fruit, will go with the multitude to do evil, and will receive the mark of apostasy in the forehead or in the hand.


To me, that is Biblically all speaking of spiritual effectuations, particularly with the mark in the hand or in the forehead.

Originally Posted By: His child
Is not America specifically depicted in prophecy as a power arising from the earth? THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS SAID TO BE something placed "upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast" to control buying and selling.

Originally Posted By: Revelation 13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Succinctly said: No. The Mark and the ability to buy are sell are two distinct things. As seen in e.g., LDE 223, 224 EGW did not have a literalistic understanding for the “Mark in the Hand and in the Forehead.” This is prophetic symbolism.

Quote:
NJK: And what do you think would fulfill a ‘yet to be known mechanism’, which means to me nothing that exists today in any way? Of course, that claim would mean that we don’t know it yet, but my question is what (more) do you think it would technologically take to enforce the Mark of the Beast today or in the future? (Seriously suggested: “mind reading” abilities? And that even beyond the current ability to tangibly utilize one’s brain wave activity to control things.)

His child: It is so difficult to stay in this conversation. What starts out as a sincere question degenerates into what is coming across as a straw-man argument.


That’s just your perception. It’s all a sincere question. I.e., I can only “mind reading capabilities”, way beyond present knowledge as fulfilling what you are claiming. If you don’t then state what you think this unknown Mark of the Beast enforcing technology will be.

(And if you think this is a “straw man” then by all means, ‘pick it apart and expose it as spurious’! To me, it is your prophetic interpretations that a find to be non-serious/frivolous.)

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: SOP 3SM 395.4
Be sure the Sabbath is a test question, and how you treat this question places you either on God's side or Satan's side. The mark of the beast is to be presented in some shape to every institution and every individual. . . .


As I Spiritually/Biblically understand it, this is saying that ‘Sabbath-opposing principles will be presented in some form...’. That is the Mark of the Beast, which is much more than Sunday sacredness but a total undermine of all of God’s sabbatical principles will indeed be applicably tailored to pervasively infiltrate every institution and be endorsed by every individual in the world. As demonstrated throughout my blog, there presently even is a form of it that is either convincedly and/or “forcedly” accepted by the SDA Church and its various Institutions. (Cf. [url=http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=73537]this related forum thread[/u].

Quote:
His child: 2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people

NJK: America will indeed serve to persecute God’s People however that Biblically does not make their President the Antichrist. The Bible is clear that the Second Beast is only acting as the pawn of the First Beast which is and solely and distinctly is, the antichrist. (See Rev 13:12-17). That is all what is symbolically depicted in Rev 17 as a woman (Apostate Church & antichrist) riding a beast (a controlled civil power).

His child: When Revelation 17 is rightly understood, the woman riding on the papal beast is apostate protestantism. That is the religious power that has the reigns, calls the shots, and pushes America to persecute God's people. Thus when the image beast takes up where the papacy left off, the image beast becomes the latter day papacy so to speak.


Summarily stated, as indeed Biblically stated by EGW, I see the she correctly did not have this view:

Originally Posted By: SOP 7BC 983.3-5
In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [Revelation 17:1-4 quoted.] {7BC 983.3}

Thus is represented the papal power, which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; promising them, as did Satan our first parents, all good to those who receive its mark, and all harm to those who oppose its fallacies. The power which has the deepest inward corruption will make the greatest display, and will clothe itself with the most elaborate signs of power. The Bible plainly declares that this covers a corrupt and deceiving wickedness. "Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth." {7BC 983.4}

What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath (Letter 232, 1899). {7BC 983.5}


Quote:
His child: 3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry

NJK: Does the Loud Cry period figure as part of your definitely reckoned time, which I assume are all within the literal range of 3.5-3.7years/1260-1335 days? Is yes, then how does the by now, up to 4-4.5+ years/1461-1641+ days fit into your prophetic scenario??

[NJK: As I also prophetically understand it, this would imply that the Sealing, Shaking and also the Latter Rain events would have already transpired in the Church. What’s precisely your view in this regards? (I.e./E.g., partial, spiritual and/or personal fulfillments vs. full, quite manifest and corporal fulfillements).]

His child: being overwhelmed with all that I study, I have not gotten into that aspect of the study as yet.


Seems to me, from your perspective that this then is a major problem as ‘prophetic time is ticking by’ if not ‘has already passed by’. If as you claimed, started to preach the Loud Cry in 2007, then why haven’t other associated prophetic developments to this Latter Rain event, including as per you, “timed prophecies”, also transpired?? It seem to me that you are needing time to reset your prophetic studies and its ‘clock.’

Quote:
His child: The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.

NJK: Is/Was he an SDA? His here cited ‘words/themes to pictures’ associations/identifications don’t suggest so.

His child: His denominational affiliation is not important. The video agrees with what I have presented from the SOP above.


I see... though I don’t see this ‘proof’ of your claims in/from the SOP. You need to dig much deeper Spiritually as well as be more factual in your interpreting of Bible prophecies.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:29 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
His child: Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

Rosangela: There is no such thing as the 5th month of the king's reign. The referrence is to the year of the king's reign and the month of the year. The Babylonian and the Hebrew calendar were similar; that's why the Jews, after the Babylonian captivity, adopted the Babylonian names for their months.


NJK: On top of the reasons I have posted showing that the reckoning in general is not valid (Post #133953), I also do not see that the claim here from this single verse is conclusive of His child’s claim of “regnal months”, indeed for reasons of being variously both Biblically and Historically “unattested”.


His child: Since further light has come upon that topic, I don't hold that view as stated previously either. By God's grace we move from light to light.

The truth is that Ezra arrived at Jerusalem in time for Yom Kippur and 2300-days fits into the prophetic timeline between Artaxerxes ascension year and the Yom Kippur in question which begins the 2300-years (457 BC- 1843/44). So whether my human language skills stated it exactly precisely as it should have been is not relevant. My misspeaking or linguistic faults, does not change the historical fact, THE LOCAL 2300-DAYS APPLICATION IS VALID. Believe it or not.


I am confused by your statements here. What ‘accepted further light’ are you referring to? Clearly by your subsequent statement, you are not at all “advancing” in the factual “light” posted by Rosangela and me. You just repeated your prior claim with now no proof at all whatsoever. Just your mere “belief”. I.e., it is (now) just your (completely baseless) belief that “Ezra arrived at Jerusalem in time for Yom Kippur” which is circularly being used as a proof of this.

Also there was no “human language skills” deficiency at all involved in that prior claim of your. Just complete factual vacuousness.

Perhaps you are assuming that SDA have it as a fact that ‘Ezra arrived at Jerusalem in time for Yom Kippur’ because the 2300 days ended on Yom Kippur in 1844. Well they don’t. However you may be interested to know, as recounted on my blog that this was the very first issue I tackled in my Biblical Research endeavors in the Fall of 1997. That is because I wanted to share the convincing Messianic part of the 2300-days with non-SDA’s however I just could not find objective, even any, proof that the 70 Weeks were to start around the Day of Atonement in 457 B.C. Since then I have found quite convincing proof for this, which concretely, typologically rightly ties the start of the prophecy to the Feast of Trumpets. (See a summary of my study here) . Yet the distinct and hard fact remains that Ezra himself had arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the 5th month = ca. July 15, 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:7-9). Those two events are not one and the same thing.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Consider this scenario prayerfully

It is simpler than that. The issue is obedience to the commandments of God. In context, in Revelation 13 and 14, God commands everyone not to take the mark of the beast. SDA's reason that since the seal of God is a spiritual settling into the truth, that the Mark of the Beast is a spiritual mark.

But as I posted earlier, the Spirit of Prophecy clearly states that it is receiving something in the hand or forehead. The mechanism to be used for the Mark of the Beast is not yet in place, but since Pope Benedict XVI and President Obama are identified in Bible prophecy as the last in their lines, if either (especially Obama) initiates a mechanism that requires a universal card or biochip to facilitate buying and selling. That is the Mark of the Beast. DO NOT TAKE IT is God's command.

Will it be linked to Sabbath or Sunday? NO. Thus the deception. But after God's people accept the Mark of the Beast because they are deceived to think that because it is not linked to Sabbath worship it is ok, something happens. The benign mechanism that regulates buying and selling gets linked to worship and there is no way to opt out.

Those that did not understand Bible prophecy were deceived. Since it is not possible to have the mark of the Beast and the seal of God at the same time, those that took the Mark of the Beast are lost. But the Christians that knew that this was the Mark of the Beast that did not take it are then confronted with the Sabbath Sunday issue.

If they believe that Sunday is the Sabbath or that it does not matter, they take the card, chip or whatever. If they learn the Sabbath truth and remain faithful, they have victory over the beast and his mark.

It is so important to rightly divide (handle) the word of truth.

Keep God's commandments, all Ten and the command not to take the mark of the beast in the hand or forehead.


Without detailedly showing why the individual claims in this post of yours are independently false/non-Biblical, I’ll just summarily, succinctly say that the issue of the Mark of the Beast is paramountly a Spiritual one reflecting on God’s Sabbatical principles. That is the Sabbatical Truth that I am focusing on “fully” proclaiming. The method of compelling/enforcing it acceptance is secondary, even quite lowly as it all depends on whether one accepts the MoB or not.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:31 AM

Quote:
NJK: His child, I already responded to these arguments of yours See Post #133952. Just repeating them doesn’t make them so.

His child: I was behind and responding to posts in the order that they came up without knowing that you responded. I am sorry that it seems repetitious to you.


No problem. Perhaps it was similarly mootly redundant to others who had read through the latest post. All just a notice and advice which, as I saw/see it, would actually save you much time and effort!
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
President Obama will, mostly likely, be leaving office 20 Jan 2013. If he isn't reelected is that date the last day your interpretation of prophecy can be fulfilled? Or, do you have backup plan to accommodate time beyond the end of President Obama's presidency? Also, what would you say if Pope Benedict should die or be replaced before 20 Jan 2013?


That’s the thing with ‘timed eschatological prophecies’. It’s, or at least honestly should be/have been ‘all or nothing’. But tellingly enough it is not, hence their self-demonstrated interpretational spuriousness, and most significantly, methodological fallacy. ‘A good tree does not produce bad fruit! (Matt 7:17-20)
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
SDA's reason that since the seal of God is a spiritual settling into the truth, that the Mark of the Beast is a spiritual mark.

But as I posted earlier, the Spirit of Prophecy clearly states that it is receiving something in the hand or forehead.
How does one determine if the mark is symbolic or literal?


Generally the context. When John speaks of seeing a beast with 7 heads and ten horns, we know that has to be symbolic because no such critter exists.

But when he speaks of the beast's head getting wounded, we know that that could be symbolic or literal. Symbolically, the papacy was wounded and the wound was healed in 1929. Then when the prophecy met its final fulfillment, Pope John-Paul II was literally wounded and that wound was healed. And after his physical healing, Reagan healed the papacy's political wound on America's behalf by recognizing J-P II as head of church and state.
The secret is to study to show yourself approved of God a workman rightly dividing the word of truth and prayerfully seeking the aid of the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. And to study correctly, we have to be willing to yield to the Spirit's leading. When we cling to our opinions the Spirit will finally leave us to the idols of our choosing and the light will move away from us leaving us in darkness.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 03:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
His Child, I am totally convinced you will be as disappointed as was Harold Camping. When President Obama and Pope Benedict leave office before Jesus returns I hope you will not give up on Jesus.


I would rather be disappointed like William Miller, than to be disappointed as the antediluvians in Noah's day. But Jesus did say that it would be as it was in the Days of Noe. And He also gave the parable of the 10 Virgins to tell us that some will wake up TOO LATE.

I have studied to show myself approved of God rightly handling the word of truth and telling all who will listen. As a watchman, I have given the Present Truth trumpet the right sound at the right hour. But it is up to those who have ears to hear. LET THEM HEAR, but if they will not, their blood will be on their own heads as it is written, the watchman will be clear.


Thank you. I'm happy to know you will remain faithful to Jesus should your interpretation of prophecy fail to fulfill. President Obama will, mostly likely, be leaving office 20 Jan 2013. If he isn't reelected is that date the last day your interpretation of prophecy can be fulfilled? Or, do you have backup plan to accommodate time beyond the end of President Obama's presidency? Also, what would you say if Pope Benedict should die or be replaced before 20 Jan 2013?


Thank you MM. On the ascension year model the old king's last year runs through New Year's Day of the new year that follows his last year. Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014. Or if the March New Year's day is applied a post Obama President could be in office for less than three months.

Regarding Pope Benedict, when he is removed from office Pope John-Paul II (Satan impersonating him) becomes the head of the papacy.

And all this is in the context that sin is only allowed 6,000-years and the Spirit of Prophecy clearly states that the time of trouble spoken of by Daniel has begun. When America defaults on its debt and Mr.Obama is compelled to implement a monetary reform as Roosevelt did in the 30's when he abolished the gold standard, things will go faster. Remember final events will be rapid ones.


But my being faithful is not that cut and dry. By faith I see what I share. And by faith I understand that those that do not take the time to check it out will cast their shadow over the truth. That is like throwing feathers of doubt to the wind. After the wind stops blowing, it is not possible to gather all the feathers.

We may recover from the damage done by our words of doubt, but other souls might be eternally lost because of our unbelief. Yet the scriptures foretell that many will cling to the truth-bears with flatteries. I have many pastors that praise my studies and tell me to keep up the good work, but they don't lift a finger to confirm the facts and share it themselves.

That was what led James White to become so discouraged in ages past. He knew that there were people that could help with the labor that were sitting on the sidelines so to speak.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many people coming out of the woodworks with dates of th Second Coming? HC is the third this year in case you have nto been counting. Satan knows his time is short and by having many voices crying wolf, he is desensitizing people to truth. Thus as in the story of the boy that cried wolf, when the wolf was there, no one believed.

Even so Come Lord Jesus, Come
His child
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Originally Posted By: His child
The two witnesses in the endtime are Daniel and Revelation.

Originally Posted By: SOP
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves. {7BC 949.6}


Why is this so??? Because there are: ‘2 books’ and EGW mentions ‘witnesses”?? If EGW had this understanding I think she would have plainly said so herself. I.e., “The two witnesses in the endtime are Daniel and Revelation.”...


Originally Posted By: EGW
Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit, did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained. {GC88 344.1}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 04:30 AM

Great His child. That of course is always possible. Now address the substantive part of that question. I.e., How does the book of Daniel and Revelation fulfill the prophetic indicators of the identity of the Two Witnesses in Rev 11?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 06:19 AM

Originally Posted By: His Child
On the ascension year model the old king's last year runs through New Year's Day of the new year that follows his last year. Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014. Or if the March New Year's day is applied a post Obama President could be in office for less than three months.

Regarding Pope Benedict, when he is removed from office Pope John-Paul II (Satan impersonating him) becomes the head of the papacy.

I don't understand your comments about President Obama, if he leaves office 20 Jan 2013, continuing until 1 Jan 2014. How is that possible? Is George Bush still President?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/04/11 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Great His child. That of course is always possible. Now address the substantive part of that question. I.e., How does the book of Daniel and Revelation fulfill the prophetic indicators of the identity of the Two Witnesses in Rev 11?

How about this:
Quote:
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Here the two witnesses are referred to as 'these two prophets'. While the two witness are the Old and New Testements, they especially represent the prophetic portions of Daniel and Revelation. But the meaning is still broader than this.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/05/11 03:59 AM

Mark: My view is that that portion of Rev 11 was not pointedly fulfilled in the Historical fulfillment of that prophecy. Therefore as the Two Witnesses then were generally the Old and New Testament, that “prophets” specification was not pointedly seen. Nonetheless as this is still, “the Bible” and thus the “Word of God” it is synonymous with “prophets”, with ca. 25% of the Bible being those direct “prophetic words” (2 Pet 2:20, 21 - cf. Post #133870).

In the Eschatological Fulfillment, as these more pointedly represent (the mission and message of) Moses and Elijah, they are readily seen as two prophets. And actually, if it was Daniel and John were being so allusively depicted in the text as Moses and Elijah were, their prophecies could be seen as the fulfillment.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 06:19 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project


Seems to me, from your perspective that this then is a major problem as ‘prophetic time is ticking by’ if not ‘has already passed by’. If as you claimed, started to preach the Loud Cry in 2007, then why haven’t other associated prophetic developments to this Latter Rain event, including as per you, “timed prophecies”, also transpired?? It seem to me that you are needing time to reset your prophetic studies and its ‘clock.’


you did not understand my reply. when I set up the gmail account for Loud Cry Publishing. Loud cry was already taken. They gave me several suggestions as I recall, but it was 2007 at the time and I went with loudcry.2007....

The more I read of your replies to my postings, the more I feel like I am being attacked by the accuser of the brethren. But if the Jews of Christ's day treated Him as they did, who am I to expect any different from the members of the Church that I have worked for for so many years and supported so sacrificially?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: His Child
On the ascension year model the old king's last year runs through New Year's Day of the new year that follows his last year. Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014. Or if the March New Year's day is applied a post Obama President could be in office for less than three months.

Regarding Pope Benedict, when he is removed from office Pope John-Paul II (Satan impersonating him) becomes the head of the papacy.

I don't understand your comments about President Obama, if he leaves office 20 Jan 2013, continuing until 1 Jan 2014. How is that possible? Is George Bush still President?


In Bible times a king's reign was calculated one of two ways. His ascension year was his first year or he got credit for his final year in its entirety.

The ascension year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. New king gets credit for entire year and on the next New Years Day, he begins his second year.

Last year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. Old king gets credit for his entire last and on the next New Years Day, the new kings begins his first year.

So when a king dies after new year's day he either gets that year as his first year or he has to wait for New year's day to begin his reign. Thus with either system, if a king were to come into office on June 1 and leave office on November 20, he would not even be counted since the old king or the new king that is in office on New Year's Day would completely overshadow the short timer king.

so if Obama leaves office after New Years day the next president by one Bible standard would not be counted until he reached New years day (January 1, 2014). Or if the Hebrew Calendar was used New Years day falls on (February 11, 2013).

So depending of what New Year's day is used the length of time for the post-Obama President could be a month or about 11 months after Mr. Obama is out of office.

But since Mr. Obama is the last President identified in bible prophecy, I expect we will see more evidence of prophecy fulfilled before we reach those dates. As I read it Iran is going to attack America in the near future. And then Mr Obama will have a personality change.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Great His child. That of course is always possible. Now address the substantive part of that question. I.e., How does the book of Daniel and Revelation fulfill the prophetic indicators of the identity of the Two Witnesses in Rev 11?

How about this:
Quote:
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Here the two witnesses are referred to as 'these two prophets'. While the two witness are the Old and New Testements, they especially represent the prophetic portions of Daniel and Revelation. But the meaning is still broader than this.


You hit the nail on the head Mark.
While Daniel and John are being fulfilled right in front of our noses, many people are denying the very things that they are predicting that are coming to pass.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 09:31 AM

It is quite telling to me that neither you, His Child, nor Mark can substantiate your interpretation with what the Bible actually is pointing out as the indentifying element for those Two Witnesses. (E.g, Rev 11:6). Are we to accept your view without proof and thus just because you claim it is to be so???
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 09:32 AM

Quote:
NJK: Seems to me, from your perspective that this then is a major problem as ‘prophetic time is ticking by’ if not ‘has already passed by’. If as you claimed, started to preach the Loud Cry in 2007, then why haven’t other associated prophetic developments to this Latter Rain event, including as per you, “timed prophecies”, also transpired?? It seem to me that you are needing time to reset your prophetic studies and its ‘clock.’

His child: you did not understand my reply. when I set up the gmail account for Loud Cry Publishing. Loud cry was already taken. They gave me several suggestions as I recall, but it was 2007 at the time and I went with loudcry.2007....


Really??!! Do you really expect me to believe that. What’s there ‘not to understand’ as I did from:

Originally Posted By: His child Post #133897 page 19
3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry


That did not at all say nor imply that you chose "2007" ‘merely’ because that happened to be the year when you were selecting an email address.

Originally Posted By: His child
The more I read of your replies to my postings, the more I feel like I am being attacked by the accuser of the brethren. But if the Jews of Christ's day treated Him as they did, who am I to expect any different from the members of the Church that I have worked for for so many years and supported so sacrificially?


That is the pet reply for those who cannot accept valid correction (see PK 139.4-142.2). The actual problem is that what you are purporting to be Truth is full of untruths all derived from an unbiblical method of interpreting and understanding Scripture/Prophecy. So the blame is entirely on you. I recommend that you either start being factual and Biblical in your work or, at the very least, stop taking money for them.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 09:40 AM

His child, what is your Biblical evidence for your various claims of how a king’s first & last years were reckoned and particularly your claimed “overshadowing” implications?? On top of making no logical sense at all, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible! Did you ever read Edwin Thiele’s (an SDA) “Mysterious Number of Hebrew Kings”. It is quite eduational/enlightening on the reckoning of Hebrew Kings. It’s available online in Google Books
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: His child

But when he speaks of the beast's head getting wounded, we know that that could be symbolic or literal. Symbolically, the papacy was wounded and the wound was healed in 1929. Then when the prophecy met its final fulfillment, Pope John-Paul II was literally wounded and that wound was healed. And after his physical healing, Reagan healed the papacy's political wound on America's behalf by recognizing J-P II as head of church and state.
The secret is to study to show yourself approved of God a workman rightly dividing the word of truth and prayerfully seeking the aid of the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. And to study correctly, we have to be willing to yield to the Spirit's leading. When we cling to our opinions the Spirit will finally leave us to the idols of our choosing and the light will move away from us leaving us in darkness.
I don't know, but I'm just thinking that while prophecies in Daniel did specifically name or point out Nebuchadnezzar, I don't see it further specifically pointing out individuals. For whether it's this one or that one, they are under Satan and the prophecy deals with him and whoever yields to him. EGW says that Satan will personate Christ. Nothing about some pope. I tend to think it would be clinging to one's opinion to cling to favorite individuals.

If as MM asked, that Obama should leave office, where does that leave you?
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 05:26 PM

Quote:
And then Mr Obama will have a personality change.
Thinking he'll get better?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/06/11 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
HC: On the ascension year model the old king's last year runs through New Year's Day of the new year that follows his last year. Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014. Or if the March New Year's day is applied a post Obama President could be in office for less than three months. Regarding Pope Benedict, when he is removed from office Pope John-Paul II (Satan impersonating him) becomes the head of the papacy.

M: I don't understand your comments about President Obama, if he leaves office 20 Jan 2013, continuing until 1 Jan 2014. How is that possible? Is George Bush still President?

HC: In Bible times a king's reign was calculated one of two ways. His ascension year was his first year or he got credit for his final year in its entirety.

The ascension year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. New king gets credit for entire year and on the next New Years Day, he begins his second year.

Last year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. Old king gets credit for his entire last and on the next New Years Day, the new kings begins his first year.

So when a king dies after new year's day he either gets that year as his first year or he has to wait for New year's day to begin his reign. Thus with either system, if a king were to come into office on June 1 and leave office on November 20, he would not even be counted since the old king or the new king that is in office on New Year's Day would completely overshadow the short timer king.

so if Obama leaves office after New Years day the next president by one Bible standard would not be counted until he reached New years day (January 1, 2014). Or if the Hebrew Calendar was used New Years day falls on (February 11, 2013).

So depending of what New Year's day is used the length of time for the post-Obama President could be a month or about 11 months after Mr. Obama is out of office.

But since Mr. Obama is the last President identified in bible prophecy, I expect we will see more evidence of prophecy fulfilled before we reach those dates. As I read it Iran is going to attack America in the near future. And then Mr Obama will have a personality change.

At what point will you say, "President Obama is no longer president and my interpretation failed to fulfill"?

Also, what do you mean by "Iran is going to attack America in the near future"? How, when, where, etc? Also, what do you mean by "Mr Obama will have a personality change"?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/07/11 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
And then Mr Obama will have a personality change.
Thinking he'll get better?
To know about the image beast study the papacy. It did not improve when it had absolute power
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/07/11 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
[quote=His child]HC: On the ascension year model the old king's last year runs through New Year's Day of the new year that follows his last year. Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014. Or if the March New Year's day is applied a post Obama President could be in office for less than three months. Regarding Pope Benedict, when he is removed from office Pope John-Paul II (Satan impersonating him) becomes the head of the papacy.

M: I don't understand your comments about President Obama, if he leaves office 20 Jan 2013, continuing until 1 Jan 2014. How is that possible? Is George Bush still President?

HC: In Bible times a king's reign was calculated one of two ways. His ascension year was his first year or he got credit for his final year in its entirety.

The ascension year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. New king gets credit for entire year and on the next New Years Day, he begins his second year.

Last year method: old king dies, new king in office sometime after New Years Day. Old king gets credit for his entire last and on the next New Years Day, the new kings begins his first year.

So when a king dies after new year's day he either gets that year as his first year or he has to wait for New year's day to begin his reign. Thus with either system, if a king were to come into office on June 1 and leave office on November 20, he would not even be counted since the old king or the new king that is in office on New Year's Day would completely overshadow the short timer king.

so if Obama leaves office after New Years day the next president by one Bible standard would not be counted until he reached New years day (January 1, 2014). Or if the Hebrew Calendar was used New Years day falls on (February 11, 2013).

So depending of what New Year's day is used the length of time for the post-Obama President could be a month or about 11 months after Mr. Obama is out of office.

But since Mr. Obama is the last President identified in bible prophecy, I expect we will see more evidence of prophecy fulfilled before we reach those dates. As I read it Iran is going to attack America in the near future. And then Mr Obama will have a personality change.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

At what point will you say, "President Obama is no longer president and my interpretation failed to fulfill"?


When my faith in the word of God is proved to be correct, I will lament for those that did not consider their soul of sufficient value to look at the evidence. But should I have made a mistake in my Bible study, I will admit it when it is clear that such a thing has happened.

God and I have had this conversation more than once. And He always says dig a little deeper and some new aspect of prophecy comes to light that strengthens my resolve to go by faith in His word and not by sight.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Also, what do you mean by "Iran is going to attack America in the near future"? How, when, where, etc?


I never said I was a prophet. Just a Bible student. As the papacy uprooted three kings in the Western Roman Empire, Bush and Obama have "fell" two nations (Afghanistan and Iraq) in what was once the Eastern Roman Empire that was also divided by 10-tribes. As I read Iran is the third nation to be "fell" and they attack or provoke us.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Also, what do you mean by "Mr Obama will have a personality change"?
To understand the image beast study the beast, the papacy. After the three horns were plucked up in the Western Roman Empire, the papacy changed from a religious leader to a relio-political leader. I expect church and state will be united under President Obama and he will become a religio-political leader as well - dictating Sunday worship...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/07/11 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: His Child
HC: Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014.

M: At what point will you say, "President Obama is no longer president and my interpretation failed to fulfill"?

HC: But should I have made a mistake in my Bible study, I will admit it when it is clear that such a thing has happened.

If things continue beyond 1 Jan 2014 will you admit your interpretation was wrong?

And, if a pope other than Satan impersonating a resurrected John Paul II replaces Pope Benedict, will you admit your interpretation was wrong?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: His Child
HC: Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014.

M: At what point will you say, "President Obama is no longer president and my interpretation failed to fulfill"?

HC: But should I have made a mistake in my Bible study, I will admit it when it is clear that such a thing has happened.

If things continue beyond 1 Jan 2014 will you admit your interpretation was wrong?


If I am wrong, I will admit it.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

And, if a pope other than Satan impersonating a resurrected John Paul II replaces Pope Benedict, will you admit your interpretation was wrong?




MM:The pope after Benedict scenario could run the same as the Obama scenario. A pope could intervene for less than 12 months that would not be counted as a pope or I am told that Benedict could become an anti-pope and thus have his pontificate reign nullified and replaced by another before Satan takes the reigns. But we should know by 1 Jan 2014 (probably sooner) and I would be the first to admit I was wrong if that were the case.

The way you keep coming back to this; you either don't know that the time of trouble spoken of by Daniel the prophet has begun or you think it will last a really long time.

Perhaps you think that I am wrong about that also.

It is important to follow the light of prophecy and constantly stay near Jesus and His light. When the light moves, those that failed to stay close to it eventually find themselves in utter darkness.

Remember the parable of the Ten Virgins: They ALL wake up! But some too late. By God's grace I awoke in time. Can you say the same?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His child, what is your Biblical evidence for your various claims of how a king’s first & last years were reckoned and particularly your claimed “overshadowing” implications?? On top of making no logical sense at all, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible! Did you ever read Edwin Thiele’s (an SDA) “Mysterious Number of Hebrew Kings”. It is quite eduational/enlightening on the reckoning of Hebrew Kings. It’s available online in Google Books


This information is readily available online. I studied it in the Bible in the past so I know the mechanics, but if you have a need to know you will have to do the leg work yourself.

Here is some online info that might help you get started

"Ancient kingdoms had different ways of recording reignal years of their kings. The Assyrians and Babylonians credited the entire year when a king died to his reign, even if he died in the beginning of the year and his successor ruled 11 months of that year. That first year for the new Assyrian king would be designated his "ascension year" and the new king's "year 1" did not begin until the first day of the following year. Historians call this method the "accession year" system or the "post-dating" system.

However, in Egypt the newly crowned Pharaoh recorded the actual year he came to the throne as "year 1" of his reign even though it was a partial year. This system of dating a reign is called the "non-accession-year" system, or "ante-dating." The kings of the Northern Kingdom of Israel adopted the Egyptian system of dating a king's reign. Jeroboam I was the first king of the divided Northern Kingdom of Israel. He was a prince of the tribe of Ephraim and a descendant of Joseph son of Jacob/Israel and Joseph's Egyptian wife Asenath. When King Solomon exiled Jeroboam, the refugee Ephraimite prince sought refuge in Egypt, so it is understandable that the Egyptian system is the one adopted by the Northern Kingdom's first king. The Kingdom of Judah, on the other hand, adopted the Assyrian system of only counting the first full year of a king's reign as "year 1". Therefore, the two year difference between the Assyrian annals and the Israelite kings Ahab and Jehu are really just one full year plus part of a year that was counted as the predecessor's year. The 12 years of Joram were 11 full years plus the months from his predecessor's death and so the Biblical account is not in error. By the Israelite system of counting reigns Ahaziah and Joram ruled for 14 years, but according to the Assyrian system, which only counted the full years of a reign, they ruled for 12 years just as Shalmaneser's Assyrian annals record."
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Dating%20the%20Reigns%20of%20the%20%20Kings%20of%20Judah%20and%20Kings%20of%20Israel.htm
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

But when he speaks of the beast's head getting wounded, we know that that could be symbolic or literal. Symbolically, the papacy was wounded and the wound was healed in 1929. Then when the prophecy met its final fulfillment, Pope John-Paul II was literally wounded and that wound was healed. And after his physical healing, Reagan healed the papacy's political wound on America's behalf by recognizing J-P II as head of church and state.
The secret is to study to show yourself approved of God a workman rightly dividing the word of truth and prayerfully seeking the aid of the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. And to study correctly, we have to be willing to yield to the Spirit's leading. When we cling to our opinions the Spirit will finally leave us to the idols of our choosing and the light will move away from us leaving us in darkness.


I don't know, but I'm just thinking that while prophecies in Daniel did specifically name or point out Nebuchadnezzar, I don't see it further specifically pointing out individuals. For whether it's this one or that one, they are under Satan and the prophecy deals with him and whoever yields to him. EGW says that Satan will personate Christ. Nothing about some pope.



Originally Posted By: Revelation 17:10-11

And there are seven kings [popes with kingdom restored post 1929]: five are fallen [Pies XI & XII, John XXIII, Pail VI,& John-Pail I], and one is [John-Paul II who was the one that received the deadly wound that was healed in Rev. 13], and the other is not yet come [Benedict XVI who has now arrived]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven [John-Paul II], and goeth into perdition.

The reason John-Paul II is most appropriate for the 8th king is related to the two last errors:

Originally Posted By: EGW
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. --The Great Controversy, p. 588.


John-Paul II declared that Sunday was God's Sabbath on 31 May 1998 and his body was just exhumed on 1 May 2011 to finalize his sainthood. So he is the ideal pope for Satan to personate as the 8th which is of the 7 to bring about the two great errors. J-P II can claim that God told him to change Sabbath to Sunday when he was alive and since his body is in its tomb and he is present there must be an eternal soul. Thus those that go by sight rather than by faith in the word of God will be deceived.


Originally Posted By: EGW

As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working, that men will do as they did in the days of Christ... {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}


Originally Posted By: kland

I tend to think it would be clinging to one's opinion to cling to favorite individuals.

If as MM asked, that Obama should leave office, where does that leave you?


My answer has been posted twice to that already.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 06:36 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His child, what is your Biblical evidence for your various claims of how a king’s first & last years were reckoned and particularly your claimed “overshadowing” implications?? On top of making no logical sense at all, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible! Did you ever read Edwin Thiele’s (an SDA) “Mysterious Number of Hebrew Kings”. It is quite eduational/enlightening on the reckoning of Hebrew Kings. It’s available online in Google Books


This information is readily available online. I studied it in the Bible in the past so I know the mechanics, but if you have a need to know you will have to do the leg work yourself.

Here is some online info that might help you get started

"Ancient kingdoms had different ways of recording reignal years of their kings. The Assyrians and Babylonians credited the entire year when a king died to his reign, even if he died in the beginning of the year and his successor ruled 11 months of that year. That first year for the new Assyrian king would be designated his "ascension year" and the new king's "year 1" did not begin until the first day of the following year. Historians call this method the "accession year" system or the "post-dating" system.

However, in Egypt the newly crowned Pharaoh recorded the actual year he came to the throne as "year 1" of his reign even though it was a partial year. This system of dating a reign is called the "non-accession-year" system, or "ante-dating." The kings of the Northern Kingdom of Israel adopted the Egyptian system of dating a king's reign. Jeroboam I was the first king of the divided Northern Kingdom of Israel. He was a prince of the tribe of Ephraim and a descendant of Joseph son of Jacob/Israel and Joseph's Egyptian wife Asenath. When King Solomon exiled Jeroboam, the refugee Ephraimite prince sought refuge in Egypt, so it is understandable that the Egyptian system is the one adopted by the Northern Kingdom's first king. The Kingdom of Judah, on the other hand, adopted the Assyrian system of only counting the first full year of a king's reign as "year 1". Therefore, the two year difference between the Assyrian annals and the Israelite kings Ahab and Jehu are really just one full year plus part of a year that was counted as the predecessor's year. The 12 years of Joram were 11 full years plus the months from his predecessor's death and so the Biblical account is not in error. By the Israelite system of counting reigns Ahaziah and Joram ruled for 14 years, but according to the Assyrian system, which only counted the full years of a reign, they ruled for 12 years just as Shalmaneser's Assyrian annals record."
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Dating%20the%20Reigns%20of%20the%20%20Kings%20of%20Judah%20and%20Kings%20of%20Israel.htm

That’s all good information His child, I have not thoroughly checked to see if what that author states is all in harmony with Thiele’s work which he cites as Suggested Reading, however my pointed question is not answered there. That is namely your “overshadowing” claim. Form what I see and understand, if a king ended his reign in “mid-year”, whether calendrical or chronological, he may have been credited with a full year however, that was merely quantitative and not, as your claim involves, qualitative. The newly ruling king would receive any of these “qualitative”, and also quantitative credits for things that occurred since he took the throne or office.

You also need to explain the justification of using those ancient methods for the reckonging of American Presidents, and that in 2011+. What’s the justifies this retro-reckoning method?? It further makes no logical sense as the book of Revelation was given in Roman times. So at best the Roman System which was straightforward from date of actual transition would have been involved there.

There is also the general question of what system, method and/or calender was the actual author, either Daniel, the post-exilic composer of Daniel and/or John the Revelator, even God Himself, the prophecy giver had in mind. All this to point out that your claim, barring the substantiation of your claims, seems rather fancifully arbitrary to me, i.e, whatever corroborates your final conclusion.

By the way, in regards to Mountain Man’s questions about admitting wrong, you do realize, if you are truly honest with yourself and your claim of Biblical soundness, that, just like claims of time reckonings, (which is indeed synonymous with your naming of specific official individual who are working within parameters of set times, as with American presidents), it’s all or nothing! I.e., you cannot later make the same claim with another pope or the next American president. It also seems wise to me that God’s prophecies do not pinpoint individuals but offices in general, irrespective of who is occupying them, and when events of the ground will have developed to fulfill a prophecy, it will indeed be fulfill, and that, also in that general way. The work against God is greater than any individual, which is why the 7 heads in Rev 17 are representative of specific world ‘thinkings/mentalities which oppose God’s cause of Truth’ and not individuals.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 03:50 PM

Quote:
The Bible was designed to be a guide to all who wish to become acquainted with the will of their Maker. God gave to men the sure word of prophecy; angels and even Christ Himself came to make known to Daniel and John the things that must shortly come to pass. Those important matters that concern our salvation were not left involved in mystery. They were not revealed in such a way as to perplex and mislead the honest seeker after truth. Said the Lord by the prophet Habakkuk: "Write the vision, and make it plain, . . . that he may run that readeth it." Habakkuk 2:2. The word of God is plain to all who study it with a prayerful heart. Every truly honest soul will come to the light of truth. "Light is sown for the righteous." Psalm 97:11. And no church can advance in holiness unless its members are earnestly seeking for truth as for hid treasure. {GC 521.3}
The earliest copyright of the book was 1888. Could someone explain what part of Daniel must shortly come to past after 1888 if it isn't chapter 12, the one she said we should all be studying?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/08/11 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
]HC: Since Obama could leave office on 20 January 2013, it is possible using that model that an American President could follow him from 20 Jan 2013 until no later than 1 Jan 2014.

M: At what point will you say, "President Obama is no longer president and my interpretation failed to fulfill"?

HC: But should I have made a mistake in my Bible study, I will admit it when it is clear that such a thing has happened.

M: If things continue beyond 1 Jan 2014 will you admit your interpretation was wrong?

HC: If I am wrong, I will admit it.

M: And, if a pope other than Satan impersonating a resurrected John Paul II replaces Pope Benedict, will you admit your interpretation was wrong?

HC: The pope after Benedict scenario could run the same as the Obama scenario. A pope could intervene for less than 12 months that would not be counted as a pope or I am told that Benedict could become an anti-pope and thus have his pontificate reign nullified and replaced by another before Satan takes the reigns. But we should know by 1 Jan 2014 (probably sooner) and I would be the first to admit I was wrong if that were the case. The way you keep coming back to this; you either don't know that the time of trouble spoken of by Daniel the prophet has begun or you think it will last a really long time. Perhaps you think that I am wrong about that also. It is important to follow the light of prophecy and constantly stay near Jesus and His light. When the light moves, those that failed to stay close to it eventually find themselves in utter darkness. Remember the parable of the Ten Virgins: They ALL wake up! But some too late. By God's grace I awoke in time. Can you say the same?

You wrote, "we should know by 1 Jan 2014 (probably sooner) and I would be the first to admit I was wrong". If President Obama is reelected does that mean the latest possible day Jesus will return would be 1 Jan 2018?

I'm just trying to determine the parameters of your interpretation of prophecy. It's an unavoidable aspect of these types of interpretations, that is, interpretations that hard tie the return of Jesus to the tenure of specific world leaders creates a time table within which Jesus must return.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
The earliest copyright of the book was 1888. Could someone explain what part of Daniel must shortly come to past after 1888 if it isn't chapter 12, the one she said we should all be studying?


In every prophecy in the book of Daniel there is a final portion that was, (in EGW’s time), and mostly still is, yet to be fulfilled. I understand here that EGW had those portions in mind. And in regards to Dan 12, my understanding is also that she pointedly similarly had not yet fulfilled statements and also a possible refulfillement of some statements but without involving literal time.

The application of EGW’s statement is of course is readily seen for the book of Revelation, but it could be also pointed out that in terms of the already fulfilled series of 7 (I.e., Seals & Trumpets), EGW understood that ca. 6 of them were already fulfilled (actually 5.5 for the Seals (Rev 6:14ff+Interlude (Rev 7)). Only the seventh portion had to be fulfilled. The same ‘partial and ongoing’ is actually seen in her understanding of the prophecy of Dan 11 as she believed that vss. 40-45 was soon to be fulfilled in her time (e.g, 9T 14.2).

(By the way, to be techincally accurate here, the Great Controversy Book was first published (thus publically released and also thus automatically copyrighted) in 1858 (= 1SG), then republished in 1884 (= 4SP); (then 1888 and 1911). The EGW GC 521.3 statement had been made in the 1884 version in 4SP 344.2.)
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

You wrote, "we should know by 1 Jan 2014 (probably sooner) and I would be the first to admit I was wrong". If President Obama is reelected does that mean the latest possible day Jesus will return would be 1 Jan 2018?


You ask me to be a prophet. I follow the prophecies but do not know more than they reveal.

Daniel 2 reveals the events that relate to king Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty, 4 great world empires, the degeneration of religion within these kingdoms, and in light of Daniel 7:17 the metals, which are also symbolized by the lion, bear, leopard and the non-describable beast clearly relate to 4 kings which shall arise from the earth. They are Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and the last one is Bush II and Obama.

Though I understood the last one as pagan Rome and papal Rome, I did not understand Bush II and Obama as two being one until after Bush II left office. "By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves."

Then I understood Revelation 13. The first beast is the post-1929 papacy. John-Paul II is the wounded head that was healed. The ten horns on the post-1929 papal beast are the 10 American Presidents from Truman to Clinton. The beast with the lamblike horns is America. The two horns on it are Bush II and Obama.

Bush II is the "endtime Prince of the Covenant." He was put in office by apostate protestantism on the very day specified in prophecy. He set up the abomination that makes desolate in the midst of the week as prophesied. And John-Paul II (the pope that was to continue 42-months) died 1290-days after the abomination was set up. And Bush II reached his hand across the gulf to the Roman power, Spiritualism, and to the Roman power again. The blessing of the 1335-days is a blessing to those that know these things to be true. It is not a blessing to those that do not look at the facts and prayerfully consider
the word of God.

"All that God has said in prophecy that applied to the past has been fulfilled in the past and that which applies to the future will be fulfilled in the future."

The apostle John states that there are many antichrists. "Those that don't know the identity of the [American] Antichrist in the endtime will be deceived by him."

How can the watchman give the right warning at the right time if he does not know the Present Truth for the hour? The false shepherd will defame the true and cry peace and safety when sudden destruction is about to overtake the people.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

I'm just trying to determine the parameters of your interpretation of prophecy. It's an unavoidable aspect of these types of interpretations, that is, interpretations that hard tie the return of Jesus to the tenure of specific world leaders creates a time table within which Jesus must return.


I did not write the prophecy or the Bible. I am old, but not that old. When I should be studying and sharing the truth, I am out in the field (sometimes up to 10 hours a day at 90 plus degrees) baling hay and stacking wood from a saw mill. I have always had an indoor job and mostly a desk job. So now that I am over 60 I am having an opportunity to get some exercise to make ends meet. But I am in better shape than my elderly wife that should be getting out of the nursing home in a few days now that her therapy is finished (again).

I thank God for the exercise that I skimped on when I was younger. But I have written 6-books on Daniel (over 1000-pages) and still I get asked the same questions when the information is already documented.

My dilemma is how to work in the field, study, write, and keep up with the correspondences, and get the word out to those that are yet unreached. The Lord has blessed with an invitation to speak to a small group in a few weeks, and doors are beginning to open.

Invest in one of my books. read it. And if there is an error or if something is not clear ask away. Share the truth. And if you find an error, tell me about it and I will correct it.
But we are at the end of time. And though time is not to be the issue, we need to understand the time in which we live.

"Echoes of Doomsday" is up to date.
http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation
if that link does not work google the link
and read the preview it will be a blessing

The loud cry is sounding. And soon everybody will know the truth, but it will be too late to do most folks any good.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
The earliest copyright of the book was 1888. Could someone explain what part of Daniel must shortly come to past after 1888 if it isn't chapter 12, the one she said we should all be studying?


Daniel was sealed until the time of the end 1798.
The kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and (pagan and papal) Rome were all understood before the time of the end began in 1798. So everything relating to the kingdoms applies to the prophecy before it was unsealed, (un) shut-up and (un) closed-up.

Thus there is a meaning that is to be revealed after 1798 to these prophecies that we historically assume to understand.

Daniel 11 begins with the three kings in Persia that decreed the restitution of Jerusalem and the temple (Cyrus, Darius, & Artaxerxes) and the 4th which was the last king of Persia who went to war with Alexander the Great. Then Daniel 11 gives the 2300-year prophecy from the 3 kings all the way through 1844 when Jesus stood for His people when the Investigative Judgment began Daniel 12:1.

Revelation 10 explains that after the 1844 disappointment the little book of Daniel is to "prophecy again" but the time element in Daniel 11 is removed "time shall be no longer."

Daniel 12:1 (1844) thus loops around to Daniel 11:6 and the prophecy and history repeats through the second Advent of Christ 12:1.

11:31 was fulfilled 9/20/01
11:41 was fulfilled last April and events are still transpiring

The sequence between 11:31-41 are not chronological in the endtime. Since the prophecy explains and blends events prior to 1844 with those of 2011, it had to be written in such a way to be understood by both generations as the understanding was needed. The things in this section of Daniel 11 are happening concurrently.

My book "Put-Out The Light" is the most up-to-date commentary of Daniel available, but it was written before the Arab Spring so it is in need of some updating to include current events.

it is available at
http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation
Sometimes the link is slow
but if you google the link it brings up a faster link

I have been doing correspondences this morning since 3 AM and need to be to work soon so I hope this helps.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 12:56 PM

FYI:
After closing my last post I learned that
Lulu is giving a 20% discount through June 13,2011
If you buy anything from them from any author
use the code TOP305 at check out

You will save $4-6 on my books if interested

Thanks
His child
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Though I understood the last one as pagan Rome and papal Rome, I did not understand Bush II and Obama as two being one until after Bush II left office.

. . .

The loud cry is sounding. And soon everybody will know the truth, but it will be too late to do most folks any good.

HC, you say you'll correct your errors if your interpretations prove false. Is that the way we're to interprete prophecy? Aren't we to test our ideas first on men and women of experience before we run with a message? Before publishing hundreds of pages of your views, how well were they tested?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 01:22 PM

I've seen this repeatedly. Men have unique views of prophecy and are able to convince others of their views. The size of the following tends to be their test of whether they're on the right track. This is a false test. The only safe way of knowing whether you or I are on the right track is by testing our ideas on others with experience who are not our direct disciples.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/09/11 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
M: You wrote, "we should know by 1 Jan 2014 (probably sooner) and I would be the first to admit I was wrong". If President Obama is reelected does that mean the latest possible day Jesus will return would be 1 Jan 2018?

HC: You ask me to be a prophet. I follow the prophecies but do not know more than they reveal. Daniel 2 reveals the events that relate to king Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty, 4 great world empires, the degeneration of religion within these kingdoms, and in light of Daniel 7:17 the metals, which are also symbolized by the lion, bear, leopard and the non-describable beast clearly relate to 4 kings which shall arise from the earth. They are Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and the last one is Bush II and Obama.

Though I understood the last one as pagan Rome and papal Rome, I did not understand Bush II and Obama as two being one until after Bush II left office. "By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves."

Then I understood Revelation 13. The first beast is the post-1929 papacy. John-Paul II is the wounded head that was healed. The ten horns on the post-1929 papal beast are the 10 American Presidents from Truman to Clinton. The beast with the lamblike horns is America. The two horns on it are Bush II and Obama.

Bush II is the "endtime Prince of the Covenant." He was put in office by apostate protestantism on the very day specified in prophecy. He set up the abomination that makes desolate in the midst of the week as prophesied. And John-Paul II (the pope that was to continue 42-months) died 1290-days after the abomination was set up. And Bush II reached his hand across the gulf to the Roman power, Spiritualism, and to the Roman power again. The blessing of the 1335-days is a blessing to those that know these things to be true. It is not a blessing to those that do not look at the facts and prayerfully consider the word of God.

"All that God has said in prophecy that applied to the past has been fulfilled in the past and that which applies to the future will be fulfilled in the future."

The apostle John states that there are many antichrists. "Those that don't know the identity of the [American] Antichrist in the endtime will be deceived by him."

How can the watchman give the right warning at the right time if he does not know the Present Truth for the hour? The false shepherd will defame the true and cry peace and safety when sudden destruction is about to overtake the people.

You didn't answer my question.

Quote:
M: I'm just trying to determine the parameters of your interpretation of prophecy. It's an unavoidable aspect of these types of interpretations, that is, interpretations that hard tie the return of Jesus to the tenure of specific world leaders creates a time table within which Jesus must return.

HC: I did not write the prophecy or the Bible. I am old, but not that old. When I should be studying and sharing the truth, I am out in the field (sometimes up to 10 hours a day at 90 plus degrees) baling hay and stacking wood from a saw mill. I have always had an indoor job and mostly a desk job. So now that I am over 60 I am having an opportunity to get some exercise to make ends meet. But I am in better shape than my elderly wife that should be getting out of the nursing home in a few days now that her therapy is finished (again).

I thank God for the exercise that I skimped on when I was younger. But I have written 6-books on Daniel (over 1000-pages) and still I get asked the same questions when the information is already documented.

My dilemma is how to work in the field, study, write, and keep up with the correspondences, and get the word out to those that are yet unreached. The Lord has blessed with an invitation to speak to a small group in a few weeks, and doors are beginning to open.

Invest in one of my books. read it. And if there is an error or if something is not clear ask away. Share the truth. And if you find an error, tell me about it and I will correct it.
But we are at the end of time. And though time is not to be the issue, we need to understand the time in which we live.

"Echoes of Doomsday" is up to date.
http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation
if that link does not work google the link
and read the preview it will be a blessing

The loud cry is sounding. And soon everybody will know the truth, but it will be too late to do most folks any good.

True, you didn't write the prophecies. However, it is equally true you have interpreted them. My question and comment concerns your interpretation. The nature and essence of your interpretation requires Jesus to return within the tenure of President Obama. This being the case, you are remiss in refusing to pinpoint the time frame within which Jesus must return. From what you've said thus far, it is clear Jesus must return by 1 Jan 2014 or 1 Jan 2018 (depending on if President Obama is reelected). Do you deny these dates?
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: His child
Though I understood the last one as pagan Rome and papal Rome, I did not understand Bush II and Obama as two being one until after Bush II left office.

. . .

The loud cry is sounding. And soon everybody will know the truth, but it will be too late to do most folks any good.

HC, you say you'll correct your errors if your interpretations prove false. Is that the way we're to interprete prophecy? Aren't we to test our ideas first on men and women of experience before we run with a message? Before publishing hundreds of pages of your views, how well were they tested?


Mark I have approached men of experience for years, but they don't want to be bothered. I had to study the Spirit of Prophecy for counsel to guide after they failed to do their part.

Originally Posted By: EGW
If our brethren were all laborers together with God, they would not doubt but that the message he has sent us during these last two years is from heaven. Our young men look to our older brethren, and as they see that they do not accept the message, but treat it as though it were of no consequence, it influences those who are ignorant of the Scriptures to reject the light. These men who refuse to receive truth, interpose themselves between the people and the light. But there is no excuse for any one's refusing the light, for it has been plainly revealed. There is no need of any one's being in ignorance. We must clear the King's highway; for God will remove hindrances out of the way. God calls you to come up to his help against the mighty. Instead of pressing your weight against the chariot of truth that is being pulled up an inclined road, you should work with all the energy you can summon to push it on. Shall we repeat the history of the Jews in our work? The leaders of the people in the time of Christ brought all their power to bear against the work of Christ, that his way might be hedged up. The people must go to God for themselves, and pray that all wrong impressions may be removed from their hearts,--pray that the word of God may not be clouded by men's interpretations. {RH, March 18, 1890 par. 5}


Originally Posted By: EGW
I know that God has moved upon me to write, and now if it is left for me to take up the burden of bringing these books to the attention of the people, I can do this, though I know that the work ought to rest upon others. Now I ask my brethren, are matters to continue as they have been for the last two years? I wish to know now, because I shall feel it my duty at once to take up the book you manifest no interest in. If I had only understood, at the outset, the turn that was to be given to Bible Readings, I could have taken my work into my own hands, and thus have saved this long delay. My children have counseled me to wait a while longer before speaking out, but I dare not do so. I have looked and waited for some one to place Vol. IV in the position it should be, until hope has died out of my heart. {1888 662.2}
After carrying the burden of writing the book, and getting it through the press, I trusted that I could then lay it in the hands of my brethren,--that they would understand and appreciate its importance, and would take up their part of the work without any urging from me. But if I alone have been made to feel the sacred, solemn importance of scattering the rays of light for this time of peril, may the Lord strengthen me for the work. I will delay no longer, but will look to the Captain of my salvation and promptly obey. {1888 662.3}


But any one of you that are reading this can study my books and stand in the gap for those that proved themselves unworthy. The sooner you come up to the task, the better. If I am in error I will correct the error or withdraw the books. And when you see the truthfulness of God's word in these books, you are obligated to share the Present Truth.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 03:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

True, you didn't write the prophecies. However, it is equally true you have interpreted them. My question and comment concerns your interpretation. The nature and essence of your interpretation requires Jesus to return within the tenure of President Obama. This being the case, you are remiss in refusing to pinpoint the time frame within which Jesus must return. From what you've said thus far, it is clear Jesus must return by 1 Jan 2014 or 1 Jan 2018 (depending on if President Obama is reelected). Do you deny these dates?


MM Listen to yourself trying to set times and dates. "Time will never be the test of God's people again." In the parable of the fig tree it is evident that it is time for the tree to bear fruit.

I gave you what I understand at this point in time showing that the Mark of the Beast is at hand. That will be the test. Know that it is at the door and prepare for the test before it comes. Had the disciples prepared before Jesus was betrayed, they would have had reacted differently in the Garden.

"By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves." As prophecy and history continue to merge, more will come to light. But don't let me do your thinking for you.

What you are doing is confusing what I have said. In your mind, you think I'm preaching time and you are trying to make me do what you think it is that I am doing.

As John and Daniel explain themselves, we will see how long Mr. Obama and Pope Benedict are in office. But by faith we can know what the prophecies forewarn of them and we can warn others to get ready. So ply games with the word of God if you think it will bring Him glory. Or take the wait and see attitude of the 5 foolish virgins if that is what you think God would have you to do.

By faith I see the prophecies as I have explained them and I will stand by what I see until history and prophecy give more clarification.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I've seen this repeatedly. Men have unique views of prophecy and are able to convince others of their views. The size of the following tends to be their test of whether they're on the right track. This is a false test. The only safe way of knowing whether you or I are on the right track is by testing our ideas on others with experience who are not our direct disciples.


Mark:
Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between truth and error. It was difficult in Jeremiah's day, the priests and rulers chose Hananiah over Jeremiah. Of course from our vantage point we see how foolish they were, it is so clear to us.

The only way is to test ideas of godly people that are led by the Spirit. And the Lord knows how hard I tried. But all of them that I could get to past the gate keepers walk in the sparks of their own kindling. And still others have their gate keepers.

Remember the FORD affair? The Church was too busy to listen until he got something moving. Then they spent millions on damage control. Should I expect different treatment?

But Mark you can study it and give your report. You can be one of these men of experience who are not a direct disciples.

In God's time this message will catch on and people will be blessed because it is the last warning. Believe it or not.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

True, you didn't write the prophecies. However, it is equally true you have interpreted them. My question and comment concerns your interpretation. The nature and essence of your interpretation requires Jesus to return within the tenure of President Obama. This being the case, you are remiss in refusing to pinpoint the time frame within which Jesus must return. From what you've said thus far, it is clear Jesus must return by 1 Jan 2014 or 1 Jan 2018 (depending on if President Obama is reelected). Do you deny these dates?


MM Listen to yourself trying to set times and dates. "Time will never be the test of God's people again." In the parable of the fig tree it is evident that it is time for the tree to bear fruit.

I gave you what I understand at this point in time showing that the Mark of the Beast is at hand. That will be the test. Know that it is at the door and prepare for the test before it comes. Had the disciples prepared before Jesus was betrayed, they would have had reacted differently in the Garden.

"By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves." As prophecy and history continue to merge, more will come to light. But don't let me do your thinking for you.

What you are doing is confusing what I have said. In your mind, you think I'm preaching time and you are trying to make me do what you think it is that I am doing.

As John and Daniel explain themselves, we will see how long Mr. Obama and Pope Benedict are in office. But by faith we can know what the prophecies forewarn of them and we can warn others to get ready. So ply games with the word of God if you think it will bring Him glory. Or take the wait and see attitude of the 5 foolish virgins if that is what you think God would have you to do.

By faith I see the prophecies as I have explained them and I will stand by what I see until history and prophecy give more clarification.

Are you saying Jesus will not return before President Obama leaves office (1 Jan 2014 or 1 Jan 2018)?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 05:29 AM

Originally Posted By: His Child
Or take the wait and see attitude of the 5 foolish virgins if that is what you think God would have you to do.

Please refrain from making these kinds of comments. They are completely unnecessary and totally counterproductive. Thank you. Just because I disagree with your interpretation it doesn't mean I'm a fool or unfaithful.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 12:26 PM

Originally Posted By: His child


Mark:
Remember the FORD affair? The Church was too busy to listen until he got something moving. Then they spent millions on damage control. Should I expect different treatment?

But Mark you can study it and give your report. You can be one of these men of experience who are not a direct disciples.


The Ford affair didn't need to happen if Ford had been willing to listen to the brethern that did talk to him before the church had to take action.

I'd just encourage you to keep dialoging here with us. That's what I do when I have a new idea. I come to MSDA and try it out. Lot's of people disagree with me. Some agree. I don't guage the truthfulness of my position by counting the numbers of those who agree or disagree. I look at the scriptural evidence they present - and the more experience they seem to have, the better their overall understanding of the three angel's messages, the more weight I give to their position.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Are you saying Jesus will not return before President Obama leaves office (1 Jan 2014 or 1 Jan 2018)?


MM As I read the prophecy President Obama is in office when Christ comes.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: His Child
Or take the wait and see attitude of the 5 foolish virgins if that is what you think God would have you to do.

Please refrain from making these kinds of comments. They are completely unnecessary and totally counterproductive. Thank you. Just because I disagree with your interpretation it doesn't mean I'm a fool or unfaithful.


MM I apologize that my use of this warning was not received as I intended it to be applied. My intention is not to point fingers at anyone as being a fool or unfaithful, but to warn against falling into that trap.

Satan has us on enchanted ground according to the Spirit of Prophecy. His aim is to keep us asleep until it is too late and we are eternally lost.

It is not and has never been a matter of agreeing with me. The issue is looking at the prophecies prayerfully and determining if a private interpretation has crept into the church or if I am giving the private interpretation.

Satan has tweeked our prophetic understanding to keep us in darkness and if we don't awake in time, we are lost. That is a sobering thought that should arouse us to action. We are for God or against Him. There is no middle ground. If I speak the truth and people refuse it or do not agree, it is nothing to do with me it is to do with God.

The solution is so simple. Look at all the facts in their proper setting and make an intelligent decision to follow God come what may.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 02:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: His child


Mark:
Remember the FORD affair? The Church was too busy to listen until he got something moving. Then they spent millions on damage control. Should I expect different treatment?

But Mark you can study it and give your report. You can be one of these men of experience who are not a direct disciples.


The Ford affair didn't need to happen if Ford had been willing to listen to the brethern that did talk to him before the church had to take action.

I'd just encourage you to keep dialoging here with us. That's what I do when I have a new idea. I come to MSDA and try it out. Lot's of people disagree with me. Some agree. I don't guage the truthfulness of my position by counting the numbers of those who agree or disagree. I look at the scriptural evidence they present - and the more experience they seem to have, the better their overall understanding of the three angel's messages, the more weight I give to their position.


Mark,

I appreciate your counsel. That is why I came to this forum to get feedback and wise counsel. I got tired of getting out of context rejection. But I am heading down the same road. Men of experience have refused to give this a fair and impartial hearing even though I have tried repeatedly to get them to do so. Only when it gains momentum will they be compelled to action. And As it was in Christ's Day and in 1888, I fear that they will cling to tradition more than Present Truth.

But come what may, God is taking charge of the closing of His work and He will guide His Church to harbor.

Either Daniel 7:17 is about 4 American Presidents or it is not. Since Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 use the same symbolism, and Rev 13 uses EARTH to depict the USA, for these parallel chapters to be in sync, the symbolism must be in sync.

Blessings
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/10/11 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: His child

Either Daniel 7:17 is about 4 American Presidents or it is not. Since Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 use the same symbolism, and Rev 13 uses EARTH to depict the USA, for these parallel chapters to be in sync, the symbolism must be in sync.
Same symbolism or is it symbolism which has similar objects or symbols? Meaning, if it uses 10 horns, and while "horn" might mean the same concept, does 10 horns always mean the same thing or entity? Does "beast" always mean the same thing?

Rev 12 has a great red dragon with 10 horns.
Rev 13 has a beast with 10 horns.
But, it receives its power from the dragon beast. So it can't be the same beast with 10 horns.



By the way, I'm curious what part, if any, do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything with the end time message?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/11/11 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
The issue is looking at the prophecies prayerfully and determining if a private interpretation has crept into the church or if I am giving the private interpretation.


A “private interpretation” is by definition one that (needs to) ignore the exegetical context. And, as with the other interpretations you have advanced thus far, your claim for Dan 7:17, has to ignore that the mentioned “great beasts” there were the historical kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. If it is referred to in the book of Revelation, it is because there is are points that need to be drawn from that historical reality and spiritually applied. (e.g., Rev 13:2a) I do not see any such established hermeneutics in your method of interpretation, hence why I can and do only se what you are advancing as private interpretations. God on the other hand knew that those kingdoms, though quite useful for the advancing of His GC/Gospel/Redemption Plans, would also be used by Satan to adversely affect these advances.

So, I only see your claims of 4 kings for these 4 beasts of Dan 7:17 as being whimsically declarative and not drawn out from any provable, and transparently provable, exegesis. Indeed your whole view here seems to be merely “reversed engineered” from a present belief that the Second Coming will occur in these times. So (1) Obama must be a “last king” (or whatever it is you are claiming here) and thus, (2) these other 4 kings must be the preceding 4 U.S. Presidents!?? Absolutely not exegetical/spiritual involvement here. Hence “private interpretations” Indeed just like the fanciful Futurist-Dispensationalist’s ‘the “king of the North” must be Russia’ since part of their territory is north of Israel!?? God is so much more “Far-Seeing”, “Deep” and Wiser than that in formulating prophecies.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/11/11 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

Either Daniel 7:17 is about 4 American Presidents or it is not. Since Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 use the same symbolism, and Rev 13 uses EARTH to depict the USA, for these parallel chapters to be in sync, the symbolism must be in sync.
Same symbolism or is it symbolism which has similar objects or symbols? Meaning, if it uses 10 horns, and while "horn" might mean the same concept, does 10 horns always mean the same thing or entity? Does "beast" always mean the same thing?

Rev 12 has a great red dragon with 10 horns.
Rev 13 has a beast with 10 horns.
But, it receives its power from the dragon beast. So it can't be the same beast with 10 horns.



By the way, I'm curious what part, if any, do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything with the end time message?



My friend,

If symbols are not symbolic, what are they?
Yes sometimes a symbol can have more than one meaning
or at times opposite meanings that depend on context to
understand.

But we (SDA)teach the consistency of symbols in
Daniel 7 and Revelation 13

lion
bear
leopard
sea
horns

so why should earth be different in two prophecies that are parallel?

The problem with applying the symbolism inconsistently is to skew the meaning of the prophecy.

The health message is a wedge that opens people to the gospel.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/11/11 02:58 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: His child
The issue is looking at the prophecies prayerfully and determining if a private interpretation has crept into the church or if I am giving the private interpretation.


A “private interpretation” is by definition one that (needs to) ignore the exegetical context. And, as with the other interpretations you have advanced thus far, your claim for Dan 7:17, has to ignore that the mentioned “great beasts” there were the historical kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. If it is referred to in the book of Revelation, it is because there is are points that need to be drawn from that historical reality and spiritually applied. (e.g., Rev 13:2a) I do not see any such established hermeneutics in your method of interpretation, hence why I can and do only se what you are advancing as private interpretations. God on the other hand knew that those kingdoms, though quite useful for the advancing of His GC/Gospel/Redemption Plans, would also be used by Satan to adversely affect these advances.

So, I only see your claims of 4 kings for these 4 beasts of Dan 7:17 as being whimsically declarative and not drawn out from any provable, and transparently provable, exegesis. Indeed your whole view here seems to be merely “reversed engineered” from a present belief that the Second Coming will occur in these times. So (1) Obama must be a “last king” (or whatever it is you are claiming here) and thus, (2) these other 4 kings must be the preceding 4 U.S. Presidents!?? Absolutely not exegetical/spiritual involvement here. Hence “private interpretations” Indeed just like the fanciful Futurist-Dispensationalist’s ‘the “king of the North” must be Russia’ since part of their territory is north of Israel!?? God is so much more “Far-Seeing”, “Deep” and Wiser than that in formulating prophecies.


From reading your post,it is evident that you have not understood my view and you misrepresent it above.

If you understood what I have written and the radio interviews that you said you listened too, it would not be possible for you to write such things.

Perhaps it is because I got behind on this thread and caught up with many posts that I overwhelmed you. It is Satan's purpose to misrepresent the truth and how better to do it than to have people claiming this or that to write about what they do not understand?

Daniel 2 is about King Nebuchadnezzar and his dynasty
Thou art the head of gold

It is about the kingdoms of Babylon MP Greece and Rome

It is about the degeneration of religion and morality

And in the endtime it is about 4 kings from the earth America.

To accept any of these meanings to the neglect of the others is to limit God's prophetic word to man's finite understanding.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/11/11 04:24 PM

His child, as I had indicated, I had indeed forgotten exactly what you had said in that radio interview, and that was because it did not strike me as Biblical (thus for me, not “memorable”), as reconfirmed to me by your recap here.

-There factually was actually and improvement in religion from Babylon to Rome, indeed going from Babylon’s religious intolerance to the much more civil religion of the Romans who extended full religious freedoms to peoples in their lands.

-The issue of a degeneration of morality is another issue, however I do not see that the decrease of metallic value is indicative of this. As the Bible’s symbols indicates and history demonstrates, each of those kingdoms were overthrown by either inferior kingdoms and/or by a lesser use of force (including Greece’s overthrow of Medo-Persia by Alexander’s comparatively small army. The transition from Greece to Rome was almost noiseless, in terms of momentous wars.).

And you did not “overwhelm me”. Obviously, as you answered to this post of mine, you only answer to statement which oppose your view for which you have a plausible answer to!! So it is manifest that your optional responses are indeed for selective reasons. So before you condemn me for not giving your view much thought, try dealing with those posted statements which are showing Theological/Spiritual/Prophetic holes in it. The proof lies in those objective, substantive factors and not whatever subjective, peripheral claim you may make. Dealing with your view, with it being so Biblically shallow is like trying to disprove a negative, and that may be the reason why many people have not bothered to more serious engage it. To me even the interpretations of Futurist-Dispensationalist have more Biblical plausibility (e.g., 445 start for 70 Weeks, the use of prophetic days, Israel vs. the Church, etc) and thus are worthwhile for me to engage in thoroughly studying them out to refute them

I don’t recall, nor see a link between that Biblical/Historical prophetic development with those 4 American Presidents, and that is indeed where I see that your interpretations are not based upon proper hermeneutics which in this case of refulfillment, require a direct Spiritual link/allusiveness to the past fulfillment. Your interpretations are not ‘Spiritually sequitur’, as they should be to be valid.

And just now relistening to your convoluted and completely wild reason for those 4 Presidents with a “reversed Alpha (“A”) Omega (“W”) sequencing” (which actually does not even exist in those names, i.e., where the “A”), I can now recall why I did not crowd my mind with those statements.

By the way, is there a money-back guarantee for when your unbiblical predictions fail??! There should be and, think about it, that would actually help you sell more books, since your are claiming a ‘definite persons and timed’ message. And given the shallowness of your exegesis and hermeneutics, if God is really leading you and you want to spread this message, then you should post free PDF copies of your book online and simply ask for supporting donations. Surely God would not ‘let your light be put out’ before this claimed Obama-end! I make the same claim that God is leading me with my NJK Project, despite, thus far, no one else wanting to do what is necessary and actually quite feasible to help all those in current vital needs, all out of a claim that the end is near (= Deut. 15:9-11; contra Isa 58) and God has/had clearly setup from long before he called me, the sustaining resources for this current full-time ministry of mine.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/11/11 07:00 PM

Quote:
kland: By the way, I'm curious what part, if any, do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything with the end time message?

His child: The health message is a wedge that opens people to the gospel.


Along the lines of EGW’s statements quoted in LDE 80.2-3, as seen in this post (Search for “Raphael” and this one, I too see that Rev 18's Latter Rain Loud Cry of the Third Angel’s message while be tangibly, paramountly and prominently seen in various works of Global physical healings. Indeed that is the ultimate tangible goal of God’s Sabbath Truth and as it affects many other aspects of life which similarly need to be healed (namely socio-economics = Isa 58; cf. Rev 18), it will indeed be a pervasive “Healing of God’ (=”Rapha-el”) Message. That all was also a major aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and also the end goal for why the SDA Church (Laodicea) has been so abundantly blessed with the needed Light, wealth and abilities to acquire the resources needed to be able to do this Ultimate Work.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/12/11 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His child, as I had indicated, I had indeed forgotten exactly what you had said in that radio interview, and that was because it did not strike me as Biblical (thus for me, not “memorable”), as reconfirmed to me by your recap here.

-There factually was actually and improvement in religion from Babylon to Rome, indeed going from Babylon’s religious intolerance to the much more civil religion of the Romans who extended full religious freedoms to peoples in their lands.


Is that so?
Originally Posted By: EGW
The image revealed to Nebuchadnezzar, while representing the deterioration of the kingdoms of the earth in power and glory, also fitly represents the deterioration of religion and morality among the people of these kingdoms. As nations forget God, in like proportion they become weak morally. {4BC 1168.4}

The kingdoms that followed were even more base and corrupt. They deteriorated because they cast off their allegiance to God. As they forgot Him, they sank lower and still lower in the scale of moral value (YI Sept. 22, 1903).


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

-The issue of a degeneration of morality is another issue, however I do not see that the decrease of metallic value is indicative of this. As the Bible’s symbols indicates and history demonstrates, each of those kingdoms were overthrown by either inferior kingdoms and/or by a lesser use of force (including Greece’s overthrow of Medo-Persia by Alexander’s comparatively small army. The transition from Greece to Rome was almost noiseless, in terms of momentous wars.).

And you did not “overwhelm me”. Obviously, as you answered to this post of mine, you only answer to statement which oppose your view for which you have a plausible answer to!!


I ignored your gibberish and went to the questions that merited an answer. And I keep Christ's method in mind. He stated the facts and when they were challenged, He frequently allowed the other person to have the last word.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

So it is manifest that your optional responses are indeed for selective reasons. So before you condemn me for not giving your view much thought, try dealing with those posted statements which are showing Theological/Spiritual/Prophetic holes in it. The proof lies in those objective, substantive factors and not whatever subjective, peripheral claim you may make. Dealing with your view, with it being so Biblically shallow is like trying to disprove a negative, and that may be the reason why many people have not bothered to more serious engage it. To me even the interpretations of Futurist-Dispensationalist have more Biblical plausibility (e.g., 445 start for 70 Weeks, the use of prophetic days, Israel vs. the Church, etc) and thus are worthwhile for me to engage in thoroughly studying them out to refute them

I don’t recall, nor see a link between that Biblical/Historical prophetic development with those 4 American Presidents, and that is indeed where I see that your interpretations are not based upon proper hermeneutics which in this case of refulfillment, require a direct Spiritual link/allusiveness to the past fulfillment. Your interpretations are not ‘Spiritually sequitur’, as they should be to be valid.

And just now relistening to your convoluted and completely wild reason for those 4 Presidents with a “reversed Alpha (“A”) Omega (“W”) sequencing” (which actually does not even exist in those names, i.e., where the “A”), I can now recall why I did not crowd my mind with those statements.


when the 4-kings from the earth/Presidents were identified I recalled Christ's parable and His teaching agreed with my findings.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Through the parables which Jesus…brought their minds to prophecies which had foretold the very things which were then being enacted. He sought by every means within His power to awaken their consciences and to enlighten their understanding 3SP 35.1


"Jesus said in the 11th hour parable, “the last shall be first, and the first last.” Of Himself, Jesus said, “I am the first and the last.” He clarified His words, “I am Alpha and Omega…the first and the last.” Compare the four American Presidents that have been identified in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13: Presidents Reagan (lion), Bush I (bear), Clinton (leopard), and Bush II (in unison with Obama, the iron teeth and brass nails on the indescribable fourth beast) and Pope John-Paul II to the good man’s five trips to the market seeking workers. Compare their names to Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega. The Greek letter alpha is written as an A, and the Greek letter omega is written as an inverted horseshoe or as a W."

"Did you notice that the 4-kings that shall arise from the earth, the four American Presidents identified from studying Daniel & Revelation, all have the omega alpha sequencing in their names? As does Pope John-Paul II!
All of them have an alpha and an omega and the FIRST (alpha) A IS LAST and the LAST (omega) W IS FIRST! But the WA sequencing is not so obvious in the name of Pope John-Paul II unless you know his given name: Karol Józef Wojty&#322;a. Thus it is not a coincidence that these five men: Ronald Wilson Reagan (WA), George Herbert Walker Bush (WA), William Jefferson Clinton (WA), George Walker Bush (WA), and Karol Józef Wojty&#322;a (WA) have the omega alpha sequencing in their names, it is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy revealed through Jesus’ parables. And when the fourth American President is understood to be George Walker Bush and Barack Hussein Obama in unison, Christ’s words hold true: “the last shall be first, and the first last.” The last omega (W) was indeed in the name of George Walker Bush, who as the iron teeth came first and the first alpha (A) was indeed last in the name of Barack Hussein Obama, who as the brass nails came last."

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

By the way, is there a money-back guarantee for when your unbiblical predictions fail??! There should be and, think about it, that would actually help you sell more books, since your are claiming a ‘definite persons and timed’ message. And given the shallowness of your exegesis and hermeneutics, if God is really leading you and you want to spread this message, then you should post free PDF copies of your book online and simply ask for supporting donations. Surely God would not ‘let your light be put out’ before this claimed Obama-end! I make the same claim that God is leading me with my NJK Project, despite, thus far, no one else wanting to do what is necessary and actually quite feasible to help all those in current vital needs, all out of a claim that the end is near (= Deut. 15:9-11; contra Isa 58) and God has/had clearly setup from long before he called me, the sustaining resources for this current full-time ministry of mine.


for you I will give 4 times the money back
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/12/11 06:35 AM

His child, thanks for the more detailed explanation. I always appreciate the effort of someone who seeks/“bothers”/cares enough to substantively defends a view they have, whatever it may be. However your explanations only further confirm my already posted statements against your view.

I’ll briefly say the following in response:

-I guess my view of the religion and Daniel’s 4 metals applies to religion as it externally related to Israel’s own, so I had a different, yet still validly applicable view than EGW’s internal one here. My view is in this improvement in the strength of religious Freedom from Babylon to Rome and that until (Spiritual) Babylon came back in power in the middle ages (the feet of Iron and clay)

-Just because you did not/cannot/will not understand something does not mean nor make it “gibberish”. Perhaps after Jan 1 2014|2018, they’ll make sense to you, when your fog of self-believed assurance completely clears.

-You application of 3SP 35.1 is a mistaken, and when this is done, one must know what they are doing as it involves proper exegesis. Jesus of course knew what He was doing here (and moreoverly was pointedly referring to the parables in Matt 21:28-41ff).

-Your attempt to claim the parable of Matt 20:1-16 as a fulfillement of Dan 2/7 is completely unexegetical (i.e., beyond original language issues, but spiritual, theological contextual and interpretational issues) and thus quite arbitrary and convoluted.

-If you sign a legally binding contract, including posting asset bonds, in regards to your 4X money back guarantee, I would consider it worthwhile to buy all of your books, as purely a quick turnaround investment (especially if Obama is not reelected next fall, or the currently 84 year old Pope dies of old age (JP-II died at 84), -as I understand your view, a resurrected and clearly recognizable JP II will have to immediately be that next Pope.) Of course, strictly speaking, if I buy even one copy of your books then I would have to read them to be “worth” the purchase, however, as far as I am seeing things from your variously posted/published explanations thus far on them, I see that my expended time would be much more costly, and entirely wasted, than that 4X money back guarantee. Like I said, I rather spend this time studying to refute the much more Biblically plausible Futuristic-Dispensationalist view which, due to this Biblical plausibility I see that Satan has used, and will use to bind people into being fooled to most obliviously accept the Mark of the Beast, i.e., because, as they believe, ‘prophecies passed Rev 4 cannot be fulfilled until after the quite noticeable Secret Rapture.’
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/12/11 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
His child, thanks for the more detailed explanation. I always appreciate the effort of someone who seeks/“bothers”/cares enough to substantively defends a view they have, whatever it may be. However your explanations only further confirm my already posted statements against your view.

I’ll briefly say the following in response:

-I guess my view of the religion and Daniel’s 4 metals applies to religion as it externally related to Israel’s own, so I had a different, yet still validly applicable view than EGW’s internal one here. My view is in this improvement in the strength of religious Freedom from Babylon to Rome and that until (Spiritual) Babylon came back in power in the middle ages (the feet of Iron and clay)

-Just because you did not/cannot/will not understand something does not mean nor make it “gibberish”. Perhaps after Jan 1 2014|2018, they’ll make sense to you, when your fog of self-believed assurance completely clears.

-You application of 3SP 35.1 is a mistaken, and when this is done, one must know what they are doing as it involves proper exegesis. Jesus of course knew what He was doing here (and moreoverly was pointedly referring to the parables in Matt 21:28-41ff).

-Your attempt to claim the parable of Matt 20:1-16 as a fulfillement of Dan 2/7 is completely unexegetical (i.e., beyond original language issues, but spiritual, theological contextual and interpretational issues) and thus quite arbitrary and convoluted.

-If you sign a legally binding contract, including posting asset bonds, in regards to your 4X money back guarantee, I would consider it worthwhile to buy all of your books, as purely a quick turnaround investment (especially if Obama is not reelected next fall, or the currently 84 year old Pope dies of old age (JP-II died at 84), -as I understand your view, a resurrected and clearly recognizable JP II will have to immediately be that next Pope.) Of course, strictly speaking, if I buy even one copy of your books then I would have to read them to be “worth” the purchase, however, as far as I am seeing things from your variously posted/published explanations thus far on them, I see that my expended time would be much more costly, and entirely wasted, than that 4X money back guarantee. Like I said, I rather spend this time studying to refute the much more Biblically plausible Futuristic-Dispensationalist view which, due to this Biblical plausibility I see that Satan has used, and will use to bind people into being fooled to most obliviously accept the Mark of the Beast, i.e., because, as they believe, ‘prophecies passed Rev 4 cannot be fulfilled until after the quite noticeable Secret Rapture.’


You misunderstand still. The Bible does not teach a resurrected John-Paul II replacing Benedict XVI.The two great errors in the endtime are the state of the dead and Sunday. Satan will appear as Pope John-Paul II claiming to be him while his body is still in its crypt.

After reading your post, I am consoled by the Holy Spirit's promise "The wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:10)

Lest we forget it is also written in 1Co 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Thus as every man works out his own salvation with fear and trembling, he must evaluate his own wisdom whether it be of God or of human devising. The truth shall stand, though all that appears pleasing to the eye that is not of God, will pass away.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/12/11 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
You misunderstand still. The Bible does not teach a resurrected John-Paul II replacing Benedict XVI.The two great errors in the endtime are the state of the dead and Sunday. Satan will appear as Pope John-Paul II claiming to be him while his body is still in its crypt.


And it ultimately still makes absolutely no difference. Your next Pope has to be “someone” who will be recognized as JP II.

Originally Posted By: His child
After reading your post, I am consoled by the Holy Spirit's promise "The wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:10)

Lest we forget it is also written in 1Co 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


Manifestly, given your complete lack of a substantive response to my objection to your ‘reversed Alpha-Omega sequencing’ claim, one has to accept it by faith since it does not pass an objective Biblical validity test. (Acts 17:11) I.e., when Jesus said ‘the last (eschatos) shall be first (protos) and vice versa’ (Matt 20:16) he really meant ‘a letter W (omega) will be found after an A (alpha).’ Whatever!!! Indeed “whatever” spirit led you to jump to that conclusion is a false one. Quite creative, but diversionarily, completely false! You’ll need people who are Biblically illiterate and Spiritually bankrupt to accept this “(SDA) Bible Code” of yours. Indeed there is nothing “Spiritual” to even begin to “discern” in your interpretations and claims.

Like I said before, at this point, given that your interpretations have not been established on an objectively and transparently factual/exegetical/historical basis, you should save the condemning denunciations at least until you have first taken the time and made the effort to do so. At this point all that one has for your view given their substantive invalidity (indeed to me they are not even “plausible”) is some claim of Spiritual impression!??

As Biblical Prophetic history reveals God never leads someone to make claims that cannot be proven to be true from His already revealed Testimony. (Isa 8:20) And God’s Spirit has no difficulty with being objectively exegetical. What it may further reveal is in full exegetical harmony with its past revelations. Even Ellen White made the Bible the final authority and as seen in her direct revelations, Biblical Exegesis fully applies.

Originally Posted By: His child
Thus as every man works out his own salvation with fear and trembling, he must evaluate his own wisdom whether it be of God or of human devising.


And that is done by fully, properly and objectively subjecting one’s wisdom and spiritual experiences to the established word of God. (John 3:21)

Originally Posted By: His child
The truth shall stand, though all that appears pleasing to the eye that is not of God, will pass away.


And the operative word here is: the Truth. There quite readily demonstratively is nothing resembling this in your interpretations. Just mere whimsical conjectures, leading to private interpretations.
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/12/11 11:22 PM

I thought it might be well to get back to Mark's original purpose for this thread, that of highlighting some EGW statements about future prophetic fulfillments.

Here's an interesting one, about the church prophesying in sackcloth at some future point. This would appear to have a connection with Revelation 11.

Quote:
Until Christ shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, men will become perverse in spirit and turn from the truth to fables. The church will yet see troublous times. She will prophesy in sackcloth. {4T 594.3}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/13/11 12:34 AM

I guess we seem to have two main discussions in this thread, which may necessitate separating the two into their own respective threads.

Originally Posted By: glenm
I thought it might be well to get back to Mark's original purpose for this thread, that of highlighting some EGW statements about future prophetic fulfillments.

Here's an interesting one, about the church prophesying in sackcloth at some future point. This would appear to have a connection with Revelation 11.

Quote:
Until Christ shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, men will become perverse in spirit and turn from the truth to fables. The church will yet see troublous times. She will prophesy in sackcloth. {4T 594.3}

Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/13/11 01:16 AM

Originally Posted By: glenm
I thought it might be well to get back to Mark's original purpose for this thread, that of highlighting some EGW statements about future prophetic fulfillments.

Here's an interesting one, about the church prophesying in sackcloth at some future point. This would appear to have a connection with Revelation 11.

Quote:
Until Christ shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, men will become perverse in spirit and turn from the truth to fables. The church will yet see troublous times. She will prophesy in sackcloth. {4T 594.3}


My general understanding of EGW’s view in all of this is that she fully perceived, especially as “time” continued to be “prolonged”, that many prophecies in the Bible could be refulfilled in the post-1844 “Eschatological” time, and that includes Rev 11. Her revelations probably lead her to see many parallels with those Historically fulfilled prophecies. And she probably saw the precedence for this in Christ’s Olivet discourse. That is why e.g., she could see the a reoccurring, but now even more Spiritual siege of Jerusalem in the end for the SDA Church, and that despite understanding that this had also typologically occurred in Church History. Same goes for the prophecy of Rev 11. She just understood that no definite time would be involved in any of these possible refulfillments.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/13/11 01:20 AM

By the way, correcting a substantively-significant typo in my earlier comment in response to His child:

Originally Posted By: NJK Project (correction in Post #134439)
... I.e., when Jesus said ‘the last (eschatos) shall be first (protos) and vice versa’ (Matt 20:16), he really meant ‘a letter W (omega) will be found before an A (alpha).’
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/16/11 02:24 AM

Here is an obscure quote
Originally Posted By: EGW

Satan is striving to gain every advantage. He desires to secure, not only students, but teachers. He has his plans laid. Disguised as an angel of light, he will walk the earth as a wonder-worker. In beautiful language he will present lofty sentiments. Good words will be spoken by him, and good deeds performed. Christ will be personified, but on one point there will be a marked distinction. Satan will turn the people from the law of God. Notwithstanding this, so well will he counterfeit righteousness, that if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect. Crowned heads, presidents, rulers in high places, will bow to his false theories. Instead of giving place to criticism, division, jealousy, and rivalry, those in our schools should be one in Christ. Only thus can they resist the temptations of the arch-deceiver. {RH, August 17, 1897 par. 14}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/16/11 11:08 AM

In my studies, I came across this SOP quote which adds another dimension to this Angel of Light Deception of Satan. It is a key snare as it is one that would most readily ensnare SDA’s:

Originally Posted By: SOP ST, April 12, 1883 par. 1-3ff
The holy Scriptures inform us that, in the last days, Satan will work with power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness. To those who do not love the truth he even appears as an angel of light. These words are fulfilled in the deceptions and false teachings of the present time. Spiritualists make the path to hell most attractive. Spirits of darkness are clothed by these deceptive teachers in pure robes of Heaven, and they have power to deceive those not fortified with Bible truth. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 1}

Vain philosophy is employed in representing the path to hell as a path of safety. With the imagination highly wrought, and voices musically tuned, they picture the broad road as one of happiness and glory. Ambition holds before deluded souls, as Satan presented to Eve, a freedom and bliss for them to enjoy which they never conceived was possible. Men are praised who have traveled the broad path to hell, and after they die are exalted to the highest positions in the eternal world. Satan, clothed in robes of brightness, appearing like an exalted angel, tempted the world's Redeemer without success. But as he comes to man robed as an angel of light he has better success. He covers his hideous purposes, and succeeds too well in deluding the unwary who are not firmly anchored upon eternal truth. {ST, April 12, 1883 par. 2}

Riches, power, genius, eloquence, pride, perverted reason, and passion, are enlisted as Satan's agents in doing his work in making the broad road attractive, strewing it with tempting flowers. ...


Given that SDA’s understand (a) the manner of Christ Return and (b) the State of the Dead, then they most likely will not be deceived by (a) Satan appearing as Christ (e.g, walking about in Jerusalem and performing miracles) without effectuating this Glorious Second coming nor (b) appearing as deceased loved ones (ST, April 12, 1883 par. 7&8) who are, moreover, teaching that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday, and that even merely through the “mediation” of “Spiritualists”. However it is this ‘making of the “path to hell most attractive” and “a path of safety”’ through the ‘vain philosophies, deceptions and false teachings of the present time that have “have power to deceive those not fortified with Bible truth”’ that is indeed most successful among even SDA Christians. Preying on desires of happiness, glory, ambition, freedom and bliss and through “riches, power, genius, eloquence, pride, perverted reason, and passion” Satan indeed is ‘successful in covering his hideous purposes, and does succeed too well in deluding the unwary who are not firmly anchored upon eternal truth.’

It is most significant to me that EGW including in 1SP (=EW 133ff) just after such a discussion in a chapter on Spiritualism, where ‘it seemed that the whole world was on board’ (EW 263.1ff), and just before a chapter on “The Shaking (EW 269ff), a warning chapter on the sin of ‘Covetousness’ (EW 266ff). Indeed Satan’s plan in this is to: ‘lay snares especially for those who were looking for Christ's second appearing and keeping all the commandments of God.’ It is actually his choice plan vs. ‘increasing his power and lying wonders’ as this would better serve to hold SDA Churches in their sleep and not rouse them to work against him by recognizing clear signs of his workings. And so he has given the instruction to: ‘Go, make the possessors of lands and money drunk with cares. For if his agents can make them place their affections upon these things, they shall have them yet.’ (EW 266.1)

Indeed all of these counsels have been fulfilled upon the SDA Church in the individual and corporate reverence that they pay to Capitalism. (Cf. this post). As patently seen throughout this topically dedicated thread, speaking against Capitalism for the more Biblical socio-economic will and laws of God is considered as an “anathema”. And so the SDA Church is marching lockstep with the world in obey the dictates of ‘making money’ vs. seeking to do God’s Sabbatical will.

This attitude and development, also realized upon SDA’s fullfills the most crucial ensnaring precursor for the full fulfillment of Rev 13:13-17. But of course, SDA’s are only to look for a “Letter of the Law” fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast (= Sunday Sacredness Law)! The Mark of the Beast is, fully, actually anything that opposes God’s full Sabbath as Divinely expounded upon in Isa 58, and thus includes this violation of the Bible’s Sabbatical socio-economic laws and principles.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/16/11 03:28 PM

Just a further observation and question in regards to His child’s quote&comment:

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, August 17, 1897 par. 14
Christ will be personified, but on one point there will be a marked distinction. Satan will turn the people from the law of God. Notwithstanding this, so well will he counterfeit righteousness, that if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect.


As stated in my comments above, clearly Satan’s deception will be capable of succeeding upon even SDA’s, who are furthermore expecting this. They, of course, will be looking for this key ‘(letter-of-the) law substituting’ action and teaching, however the SOP is warning that the most successful deception will will revolve around “counterfeit righteousneoss”. As “righteousness” is “the conformity of heart and life to the divine law” as made concretely manifest in ‘doing what is right’, it is further seen how Capitalism is a key contributor to this counterfeit. Only the “elect”, i.e., the 144,000+, will not be deceived by this, for they will be sealed with the “full” understanding of God’s Sabbath.

Indeed in Capitalism it is perfectly okay to “live and let die” all in the name of ‘making a profit/money and Christians, even SDA’s either wholeheartedly support this senselessness and/or, for those who see the wrong and unbiblicalness in it, just mutely, out of fear of ‘suffering vital need’, go along with it. (= a precursor fulfillment of Rev 13:15-17, which currently does not need to be overtly enforced.)

Question:
His child: What are you actually finding as “obscure” in EGW’s statement. Seem to me that her statement: “Crowned heads, presidents, rulers in high places, will bow to his false theories” is rightly indicative that even heads of states will accept these false theories of Satan. (Indeed as the spurious system of Capitalism is currently widely accepted by all but less than a handful of world governments.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/18/11 06:07 PM

Thank you for that quote Glen. Notice the last part of the same paragraph:
Quote:
Until Christ shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, men will become perverse in spirit and turn from the truth to fables. The church will yet see troublous times. She will prophesy in sackcloth. But although she must meet heresies and persecutions, although she must battle with the infidel and the apostate, yet by the help of God she is bruising the head of Satan. The Lord will have a people as true as steel, and with faith as firm as the granite rock. They are to be His witnesses in the world, His instrumentalities to do a special, a glorious work in the day of His preparation. {4T 594.3}


She not only re-applies Revelation 11 to the future, she identifies the Two Witnesses by first saying that 'she', the church, will prophesy again - the work of the two witnesses. In other words the witnesses are the church. But if this was not clear enough she continues to expand the thought by stating that the true church, those who are like steel and granite in their faith, will be His witnesses.

For me, this is another of those almost irresistible invitations to be among those who deliver the Loud Cry message of the third and fourth angels. I don't believe I'm in that class of granite and steel yet, but do I ever want to be!
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/18/11 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
In other words the witnesses are the church.


I do not see that the Church is necessarily the Two Witnesses, (i.e., per se) but it will indeed do the “Moses and Elijah” work of the Two Witnesses, thus fulfilling this symbolic depiction. That is of course, if it ever gets around to doing this work, as it fully entails, and that currently is a big “IF”. They are in fact acting the Israel parts that Moses and Elijah had to strongly deal against, i.e., conflatedly, ‘adhering and bowing down to Church-work impeding worldly customs and policies’. ()

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
For me, this is another of those almost irresistible invitations to be among those who deliver the Loud Cry message of the third and fourth angels. I don't believe I'm in that class of granite and steel yet, but do I ever want to be!


You can get a great head start/crash course by understanding and heeding the “fuller” implication in God’s Sabbath as seen in its intertwined socio-economic principles. Honestly/Seriously... see the posts in my blog for more.
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/18/11 10:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Thank you for that quote Glen. Notice the last part of the same paragraph:
Quote:
Until Christ shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, men will become perverse in spirit and turn from the truth to fables. The church will yet see troublous times. She will prophesy in sackcloth. But although she must meet heresies and persecutions, although she must battle with the infidel and the apostate, yet by the help of God she is bruising the head of Satan. The Lord will have a people as true as steel, and with faith as firm as the granite rock. They are to be His witnesses in the world, His instrumentalities to do a special, a glorious work in the day of His preparation. {4T 594.3}


She not only re-applies Revelation 11 to the future, she identifies the Two Witnesses by first saying that 'she', the church, will prophesy again - the work of the two witnesses. In other words the witnesses are the church. But if this was not clear enough she continues to expand the thought by stating that the true church, those who are like steel and granite in their faith, will be His witnesses.


One way of coming at who the two witnesses really are is to observe that Israel, whether literal Israel or spiritual Israel, has repeatedly been oppressed by Babylon (literal or spiritual).

Some of the periods of oppression were long (1260 years), and some are fairly short (the future).

If there are long periods of oppression, then perhaps it makes sense to think of the two witnesses in abstract and symbolic terms, such as the Old and New Testaments.

On the other hand, if we have the future wrapup of the great controversy, and it takes place over a few years, then it might make more sense to think of the two witnesses as tangible individuals doing a specific work.

For example, here is a quote that describes future witnessing:

Quote:
Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers. Satan also works, with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand. {GC 612.1}


Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
For me, this is another of those almost irresistible invitations to be among those who deliver the Loud Cry message of the third and fourth angels. I don't believe I'm in that class of granite and steel yet, but do I ever want to be!


I agree that this is the only game in town. I believe that when Daniel 11/12 talk about being "wise", they are referring to this sort of thing -- understanding how God works, what is implied in the great controversy, how we can be successful in cooperating with the Spirit to finish the work, discerning the threats from the world, and so on.

There's another quote that I always come back to when thinking about witnessing for God:

Quote:
Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/19/11 04:30 AM

glenm, Succinctly said, I don’t see that the amount of actual time in which a prophecy is to take place is substantively determinative of the meaning of its symbolism.

And the understanding of The Two Witnesses of relatedly being (in the Historical Age) the Word of God =(Old and New Testament) and more specifically in the Eschatological Age, “Moses and Elijah” in a message and possibly through one or more individuals who are bearing this message is seen in the fact that the last testimony in the Old Testament is a summary admonishment to recall and heed the work of both Moses and Elijah (Mal 4:4-6) which are representative of God’s Law and Prophets (Matt 5:17; 7:12; Luke 16:16; 24:27; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; 24:14; 28:23; Rom 3:21; cf. Lam 2:9= the OT Scriptures and by extension, the Word of God, thus also our OT&NT Bibles today).

So that symbolism is still in force even if it is more specific of Moses and Elijah (with also Jeremiah’s ministry alluded to) in its final/eschatological application, as the expected circumstances demand it.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/22/11 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
On the other hand, if we have the future wrapup of the great controversy, and it takes place over a few years, then it might make more sense to think of the two witnesses as tangible individuals doing a specific work.
Rather than two specific individuals, could it be the books of Daniel and Revelation being presented (and studied as Ellen White recommended!) to the world by those who are wise?
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/22/11 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: glenm
On the other hand, if we have the future wrapup of the great controversy, and it takes place over a few years, then it might make more sense to think of the two witnesses as tangible individuals doing a specific work.
Rather than two specific individuals, could it be the books of Daniel and Revelation being presented (and studied as Ellen White recommended!) to the world by those who are wise?


I think there are multiple ways of saying it. If we look at the core cross references on the original passage (Revelation 11:3-6), the names that pop out are Moses and Elijah. These names are also mentioned in connection with John the Baptist as the forerunner of Christ's first advent (Malachi 4:4-6).

But this reference to Moses and Elijah doesn't imply that the two witnesses in the end times are two specific individuals. Rather, the inspired material that I'm familiar with indicates that the two witnesses are groups of people used by God.

I like the idea of linking the witnesses to those who are "wise" in Daniel 11/12. Daniel 11:33 says that that the wise "instruct many".

If someone says that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah as symbols of God's messengers, or the Old and New Testaments, or Daniel and Revelation, or the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, or the 144,000, I'm not going to quibble with them.

What seems pretty clear with all these definitions is that there are great truths to be shared from the Bible, and God uses human agents empowered by the Spirit to share those truths. So the two witnesses can be defined in various ways.

Another way of coming at this is to back up a few verses, and consider Revelation 10:11. John is told that he must "prophesy again".

I take this to mean that the three angels' messages are to be repeated after 1844 (2SM 104).

This is especially pertinent during the loud cry period, when God's people work in cooperation with the fourth angel (Revelation 18:1-5) to warn the world.

Here is a quote that brings this together:

Quote:
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven, descending to the earth, and again ascending to heaven, preparing for the fulfillment of some important event. Then I saw another mighty angel commissioned to descend to the earth, to unite his voice with the third angel, and give power and force to his message. Great power and glory were imparted to the angel, and as he descended, the earth was lightened with his glory. The light which attended this angel penetrated everywhere, as he cried mightily, with a strong voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." The message of the fall of Babylon, as given by the second angel, is repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the churches since 1844. The work of this angel comes in at the right time to join in the last great work of the third angel's message as it swells to a loud cry. And the people of God are thus prepared to stand in the hour of temptation, which they are soon to meet. I saw a great light resting upon them, and they united to fearlessly proclaim the third angel's message. {EW 277.1}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/23/11 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: glennm
...Another way of coming at this is to back up a few verses, and consider Revelation 10:11. John is told that he must "prophesy again".

I take this to mean that the three angels' messages are to be repeated after 1844 (2SM 104).

This is especially pertinent during the loud cry period, when God's people work in cooperation with the fourth angel (Revelation 18:1-5) to warn the world.

Here is a quote that brings this together: {EW 277.1 quoted}


I just posted a second part of a prior study together covering the topic of Rev 10's Angel|the 3+1 Angels, especially the Third Sealing Angel Gabriel, and more, on my blog, all in precursor relation to, as internally linked, my study on Rev 11, which all may be helpful here. See those here provided links for more.

Understanding the actual message of the Two Witnesses (starting from the clearly stated Moses and Elijah allusions, and thus, as already stated, main work) should/will lead to its proper interpretation. Even if this is done by a group, it still has to be ascertained that the work of these two great men of God is being done. And so a soul-searching must be done by the Church and its member to make sure that they themselves are not being condemned by this pointed work.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/23/11 04:36 PM

In the light of the “Passion of Christ” themes intertwined in the work of the Two Witnesses (cf. this post), I have found the following SOP to be quite illustrative of, and indicatively allusive tp what is also involved in the work of the Moses Witness.

Originally Posted By: SOP GC 460.1
The great obstacle both to the acceptance and to the promulgation of truth is the fact that it involves inconvenience and reproach. This is the only argument against the truth which its advocates have never been able to refute. But this does not deter the true followers of Christ. These do not wait for truth to become popular. Being convinced of their duty, they deliberately accept the cross, with the apostle Paul counting that "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;" with one of old, [Moses] "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt." 2 Corinthians 4:17; Hebrews 11:26.


Similarly, the "Elijah Witness" also involves the call for Israel, now in their own country, to turn away from mixing in the worshipping of idols and thus completely falsifying the Religion of God. (Cf. 1 Kgs 18:21). Both Witness Messages have modern applications in rejecting communally living by and doing the work of God according to, the Law and tenets of Capitalism.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/24/11 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
This is especially pertinent during the loud cry period, when God's people work in cooperation with the fourth angel (Revelation 18:1-5) to warn the world.
I think I misunderstood you when you said, "two witnesses as tangible individuals", I took that to mean specific individuals rather than a group of people.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/24/11 08:49 PM

Originally Posted By: His child

The health message is a wedge that opens people to the gospel.

Yes, but my question was more. The answer did not give me any meaning other than what I've heard repeated. Maybe instead of "What part do you see", I should have asked, "How" do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything else in the end time message or events?
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/24/11 10:16 PM

In regards to the Loud Cry Message which is (a) said to be health-related; (b) dovetails with the Third Angel’s message; and (c) the repeating of the Second Angel message, this part of this recent post shows how these themes are indeed intricately and interdependently linked.
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/25/11 12:44 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: glenm
This is especially pertinent during the loud cry period, when God's people work in cooperation with the fourth angel (Revelation 18:1-5) to warn the world.
I think I misunderstood you when you said, "two witnesses as tangible individuals", I took that to mean specific individuals rather than a group of people.


I've been thinking about whether there's a way to tie down further who the two witnesses really are.

In the first place, we know that the Revelation 11:3-6 cross references point at Moses and Elijah. We also know that EGW defines the witnesses to be the Old and New Testaments (GC 267).

So how do we unify these items of inspired evidence?

One way is to note that Moses and the Old Testament represent the concept of "law", while Elijah and the New Testament point forward to and describe the ministry of Christ ("gospel"). Both of these points are captured in Malachi 4:4-6.

How does this idea fit in with the ministry of the SDA Church? There are several verses in Revelation that specifically define the distinctive mission of our church. I am thinking in particular of these three:

Quote:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


The remnant is characterized by two things: (a) they keep the commandments, and (b) they have an ongoing walk of faith with Jesus Christ and abide in the prophetic witness about His ways.

So if we follow this model, the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, or the Old and New Testaments, or the law and gospel. These are three ways of saying the same thing.

Here's a quote that talks about how we are to proclaim the law and the gospel together:

Quote:
The law and the gospel, revealed in the Word, are to be preached to the people; for the law and the gospel, blended, will convict of sin. God's law, while condemning sin, points to the gospel, revealing Jesus Christ, in whom "dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." The glory of the gospel reflects light upon the Jewish age, giving significance to the whole Jewish economy of types and shadows. Thus both the law and the gospel are blended. In no discourse are they to be divorced.-- Manuscript 21, 1891. {Ev 231.3}


My understanding is that the two witnesses ultimately represent people proclaiming the three angels' messages, especially the last part of Revelation 14:12. In other words, we proclaim a message about honoring God's law through the power of Christ in our lives.

Here's another quote that ties all this together:

Quote:
The faith of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus are blended. They are to be clearly presented to the world. But in God's word we are shown the consequences of proclaiming this message. "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." A refusal to obey the commandments of God, and a determination to cherish hatred against those who proclaim these commandments, leads to the most determined war on the part of the dragon, whose whole energies are brought to bear against the commandment-keeping people of God. "He causeth all, both small and great . . . to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." Not only are men not to work with their hands on Sunday, but with their minds are they to acknowledge Sunday as the Sabbath. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of this name." {PH086 6.3}
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/25/11 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

The health message is a wedge that opens people to the gospel.

Yes, but my question was more. The answer did not give me any meaning other than what I've heard repeated. Maybe instead of "What part do you see", I should have asked, "How" do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything else in the end time message or events?


I have also read that those that do not overcome appetite will not be prepared when Jesus comes.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/25/11 02:22 AM

Be sure the Sabbath is a test question, and how you treat this question places you either on God's side or Satan's side. The mark of the beast is to be presented in some shape to every institution and every individual. . . . {3SM 395.4}

The light that we have upon the third angel’s message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. All in regard to this matter is not yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll, but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord’s command to His servants is “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.” {CTr 350.4}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/25/11 08:59 PM

(His child, You may want to address this post (#134719) related to your “Mark of the Beast” quotings above in this thread.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/27/11 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
I've been thinking about whether there's a way to tie down further who the two witnesses really are.
. . .So if we follow this model, the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, or the Old and New Testaments, or the law and gospel. These are three ways of saying the same thing.

> . . My understanding is that two witnesses ultimately represent people proclaiming the three angels' messages, especially the last part of Revelation 14:12. In other words, we proclaim a message about honoring God's law through the power of Christ in our lives.


I agree. Another point is that Ellen White states somewhere (maybe someone can find the quote), that the Bible will become a forbidden book again like it was during the dark ages. The retreat of the Two Witnesses into the wilderness or their being slain at the end of their testimony may also be symbolic of the banning of scripture. In other words if the Two Witnesses represent both the remnant and the scriptures, their retreat to the wilderness and slaying could have a double meaning: in the case of God's people the retreat could mean a national Sunday law and their slaying could mean a universal extermination order; in the case of the scripture their retreat could mean a partial ban and their slaying could mean a total ban.
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/27/11 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Another point is that Ellen White states somewhere (maybe someone can find the quote), that the Bible will become a forbidden book again like it was during the dark ages. The retreat of the Two Witnesses into the wilderness or their being slain at the end of their testimony may also be symbolic of the banning of scripture. In other words if the Two Witnesses represent both the remnant and the scriptures, their retreat to the wilderness and slaying could have a double meaning: in the case of God's people the retreat could mean a national Sunday law and their slaying could mean a universal extermination order; in the case of the scripture their retreat could mean a partial ban and their slaying could mean a total ban.


The quotes that I know of re the Bible being taken away in the future are below.

One suggestion here might be to take a hard look at the word "scatter" in Daniel 12:7, and ask what this really means for God's people. Modern translations use the stronger "shatter", and the same Hebrew word shows up in verses like Judges 7:19 and Jeremiah 13:14.

Another line of study would be to look at what EGW says about the universal death decree. An example is found on PK 512.

It might be possible to correlate this information with the Revelation 11 sequence, as you suggest.

Quote:
Put away the foolish reading matter and study the Word of God. Commit its precious promises to memory so that when we shall be deprived of our Bibles we may still be in possession of the Word of God. {10MR 298.3}


Quote:
The time will come when many will be deprived of the written word. But if this word is printed in the memory, no one can take it from us; and it is a talisman that will meet the worst forms of error and evil. {20MR 64.4}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/28/11 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I agree. Another point is that Ellen White states somewhere (maybe someone can find the quote), that the Bible will become a forbidden book again like it was during the dark ages. The retreat of the Two Witnesses into the wilderness or their being slain at the end of their testimony may also be symbolic of the banning of scripture. In other words if the Two Witnesses represent both the remnant and the scriptures, their retreat to the wilderness and slaying could have a double meaning: in the case of God's people the retreat could mean a national Sunday law and their slaying could mean a universal extermination order; in the case of the scripture their retreat could mean a partial ban and their slaying could mean a total ban.


I think that you (Mark) and glenm’s interpretation of this prophecy is too partitioned. I.e., you are only looking at some parts of the prophecy in this indeed refulfillement and not at it as a whole. If you just take a verse here or there, or even just part of a verse, then you can claim just about any interpretation. The prophecy must be view as the whole that it is.

Having done this, I rather see, indeed based upon many included elements in the prophecy, which are, at the very least, spiritually corroborated in the SOP (as this was not a Present Truth for EGW and her time) (see this post) that the interlude vision/prophecy of the Two Witnesses is focused upon a precursor judgement of the Church, pointedly the (Jerusalem of God) and its leadership itself. That is why the “Gentiles” are left out of this judgement (Rev 11:2). However, like a similar judgement of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., this impactful judgement spills out into the rest of the secular world. (Rev 11:10).

In this eschatological age, this is (a) the SDA Church among all of the Christian world (God’s Israel) and (b) the Church’s leadership above the laity (cf. here). Once this Temple has been judged and set right, ‘those who remain and give glory to God upon this judgement’ (=vs. 13b; cf. Rev 14:6) are then ready to proclaim the three Angels’ Message to the rest of the world, including the Christian World.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/28/11 01:07 AM

By the way, as it is pertinent to the Two Witnesses here, Elijah is said in the SOP to be (as easily seen): “the greatest prophet since the days of Moses” (PK 224.1).
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/28/11 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

The health message is a wedge that opens people to the gospel.

Yes, but my question was more. The answer did not give me any meaning other than what I've heard repeated. Maybe instead of "What part do you see", I should have asked, "How" do you see the health message playing in the loud cry or anything else in the end time message or events?


I have also read that those that do not overcome appetite will not be prepared when Jesus comes.
Ok, let me ask it a different way. In what way does the health message play in your message? If people who don't overcome appetite will not be prepared, and your books are to prepare the people, what part does the health message play in your books in preparing the people in addition to any other message?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/29/11 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm

The quotes that I know of re the Bible being taken away in the future are below.

One suggestion here might be to take a hard look at the word "scatter" in Daniel 12:7, and ask what this really means for God's people. Modern translations use the stronger "shatter", and the same Hebrew word shows up in verses like Judges 7:19 and Jeremiah 13:14.

Another line of study would be to look at what EGW says about the universal death decree. An example is found on PK 512.

It might be possible to correlate this information with the Revelation 11 sequence, as you suggest.

Quote:
Put away the foolish reading matter and study the Word of God. Commit its precious promises to memory so that when we shall be deprived of our Bibles we may still be in possession of the Word of God. {10MR 298.3}


Quote:
The time will come when many will be deprived of the written word. But if this word is printed in the memory, no one can take it from us; and it is a talisman that will meet the worst forms of error and evil. {20MR 64.4}
Good suggestions.

The thing that troubled me about interpreting the Two Witnesses as the remnant only is that they are slain and we know that the final group is translated rather than slain. But if the Two Witnesses are also the scripture then their being banned would be a symbolic fulfillment of the scripture effectively being slain.

Your point is well taken though that the shattering of the holy people in Daniel 12 could be the primary application/interpretation here in Revelation 11. That is, the number of martyrs could far outweigh the number of those who survive and/or the action of the nations in imposing the death decree will in itself be a repudiation of the Law, the covenant and scripture.

NJK, I'm agreeing that the Two Witnesses measure the church and that the gentiles aren't measured. But because the elements within Revelation 11 line up with Daniel 12 and this "woe" occurs just prior to second coming and reign of Christ in Revelation 11:15 and because of other scriptures that align with Revelation 11, this measuring is the final call to the remnant just prior to the return of Christ. Scriptural evidence points to this as the Loud Cry under a different figure.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/29/11 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
NJK, I'm agreeing that the Two Witnesses measure the church and that the gentiles aren't measured. But because the elements within Revelation 11 line up with Daniel 12 and this "woe" occurs just prior to second coming and reign of Christ in Revelation 11:15 and because of other scriptures that align with Revelation 11, this measuring is the final call to the remnant just prior to the return of Christ. Scriptural evidence points to this as the Loud Cry under a different figure.


Interesting points, however this is where things are not as “simple” as they should seem to be.

(1) As discussed in my blog post on this prophecy, Rev 11 makes mentions to a “42 months” period. While this is one of several ways to express the 1260-day period, it has pointed understanding due to this different way than Dan 12:7's rendering. It links this to Rev 13:5's period and the thematic understanding there is the First Beast power having authority to act in defiance to God and opposition to God’s people for that time. However the pointed notion of shattering or killing the saints is not discussed there. The main issue here is ‘the waging of (the more general and formal) war against the First Beast power (Rev 12:4) (and not persecutions) and as linked to in Rev 11:2, involving God’s holy city e.g., “Jerusalem”.

Rev 11:3 “1260 days” itself links up to Rev 12:6 fulfilled where this is speaking of God protecting His actual True Church, in a place that had been prepared for her for this, during that time.

The simple shift between 42 months and 1260 days in Rev 11:2, 3 is quite telling that there indeed is a deliberate and specific meaning in the use of those times. Using Dan 7:25 & 12:7's ‘time, times and half a time’ would be pointedly implying the distinct aspect of physical and personal persecutions.

2) The organizational structure of the book of Revelation (see this chart)has to be kept in mind here, especially in the Time of the End (Eschatological times) vs. the Historical Times. It shows that Rev 11:1-14 does not necessarily have to be linearly followed by the (literal) blasting of the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11:15-18. A Spiritual fulfillment is likely, however, as it was also discussed in this blog post; EGW’s Shaking vision involves all of the visions in an horizontal “Remnant Church” cross section of the prophecies where the Two Witnesses are found. So the actual “next development” is the re-proclaiming of the Three Angels message by the remnant group that survives this Rev 11 judgement. As I read things, this 3AM proclamation is made with more Biblical depth and accuracy than previously done by the SDA Church, for all 3 Messages. The Loud Cry (Rev 18:1-20) only occurs in 2 more developments, after opposers of this new and more tangibly affecting 3AM campaign have formal assembled and organized themselves (Rev 16:15, 16).

So this structural/organizational element for the book of Revelation is key here.
Posted By: glenm

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 06/29/11 10:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The thing that troubled me about interpreting the Two Witnesses as the remnant only is that they are slain and we know that the final group is translated rather than slain. But if the Two Witnesses are also the scripture then their being banned would be a symbolic fulfillment of the scripture effectively being slain.

Your point is well taken though that the shattering of the holy people in Daniel 12 could be the primary application/interpretation here in Revelation 11. That is, the number of martyrs could far outweigh the number of those who survive and/or the action of the nations in imposing the death decree will in itself be a repudiation of the Law, the covenant and scripture.


A couple of comments.

1. We are told that there will be many martyrs, and that the future persecution will be worse than in the Dark Ages. I am thinking in particular of these quotes:

Quote:
When this grand work is to take place in the battle, prior to the last closing conflict, many will be imprisoned, many will flee for their lives from cities and towns, and many will be martyrs for Christ's sake in standing in defense of the truth. {3SM 397.4}


Quote:
The persecutions of Protestants by Romanism, by which the religion of Jesus Christ was almost annihilated, will be more than rivaled when Protestantism and popery are combined. {Mar 194.2}


I don't know the proportion of martyrs to those who are translated.

2. These martyrdoms occur before the close of probation, not after. Presumably this is also when the two witnesses are most active, if we consider "witness" in the usual sense of proclaiming the three angels' messages and asking people to make a choice for God.

Such proclamation after the close of probation would have no point, although it's still possible that the witnesses could serve some other role then, for example by testifying to the universe that they are fully dependent on Christ to get them through the time of Jacob's trouble.

3. I know of a couple of places in the sequence where the wicked exult in apparent triumph that they've silenced God's people. This may correspond to Revelation 11:9-10. I am thinking of these quotes:

Quote:
The wicked exult, and the jeering cry is heard: "Where now is your faith? Why does not God deliver you out of our hands if you are indeed His people?" {GC 630.1}


Quote:
With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. {GC 635.3}


4. The second of these quotes corresponds to the time of the seventh plague, when the special resurrection occurs. We know that those who died in the faith of the third angel's message will be resurrected at this point:

Quote:
There was a mighty earthquake. The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel's message, keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law. {EW 285.1}


This group presumably includes the martyrs already mentioned, who apparently come back to life in relatively short order (Revelation 11:11-13).

5. Whether or not the Bible is banned in the future, it seems pretty clear that its witness will be nullified, as will the witness of the people who proclaim its truths.

Interestingly enough, EGW applies Amos 8:11-12 to this period, and talks about how there will be a famine for the Word:

Quote:
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11, 12. {GC 629.1}


This is not so much a literal famine for the Word in the sense of banning the Bible, but is more a famine in the sense that the wicked have gone so far that the Spirit and Bible can no longer reach them.

I'm not certain how this concept ties in with Revelation 11, but it might be worth thinking about.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/01/11 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Ok, let me ask it a different way. In what way does the health message play in your message? If people who don't overcome appetite will not be prepared, and your books are to prepare the people, what part does the health message play in your books in preparing the people in addition to any other message?


My study has always focused on Daniel and Revelation as an extension of it. In Daniel 1 the health message is encountered when Daniel and the three worthies refuse to eat the king's diet. Thus in Defying Destiny, Daniel's Apocalyptic Code Revealed, The Last Church Meets the Obama-Nation, and Echoes of Doomsday; I take on the issue that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and link obedience in seemingly little things to victories in much greater things.

Those that failed the dietary test in Daniel are never heard from again in Daniel. They are not recorded as men of honor in Babylon and they did not stand the test of the fiery furnace.

I also link Christ's casting the devils into the swine with Communion. Those that eat at Christ's table are professing that they are taking Jesus as their indwelling Savior. Is it possible for Christ to dwell in an individual that knowingly eats as food that which Jesus cast devils into?

There are many other examples in my books that incorporate our health message into the loud cry, but my heaviest focus is to understand the prophecies that strengthen our faith in God.

We don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, but God has told Daniel what was to happen in his day, in future kingdoms, and in our day. And God got it right. Bible Prophecy is proof that God is and since we can trust His word that seeks to prepare us to make it through the endtime events, we can trust His word that declares His love for us.

As the health message is the hand on the arm of prophecy, I give more time to the larger arm than the smaller hand. I do include the health message because it is need to know material.

And I am actively trying to live it. I am a vegan. I could be working as an RN in a hospital, but in my 61st year, I realize that I have not been as active as I should have been when younger because I had some really soft jobs and I spend hours every day on the computer reading the Bible, writing articles and corresponding; so I work out in the field where I get fresh air, sunshine, gallons of water, and enough exercise to wear me out. Sometimes I have to cut my time back or take a day off in the week to rest up. It does not pay the bills well, but the Lord has led me to this situation and I give it my all.

And there is a blessing there. I earn enough to buy some of my books so that I can give them away. I can only afford about 30-copies a month because I have a 8 year old that needs food and clothes and a christian education and everything an 8-year old needs.

Please pray that the Lord will provide us a house to live in soon and tuition is due soon. We are staying with my mom and it is so cramped.

My 14-year old is living with my wife so I don't have the expenses of caring for both girls, but I will be the one to pay tuition for both or they won't go to Church School.

As I read prophecy, there are allot of folks that are going to be allot more worse off in a very short time. So please pray for them as well.
Posted By: kland

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/01/11 09:05 PM

Thank you for explaining that. I find it very hard to eat vegan (and more than just that: healthy) at church and wondered how those who are looking for the soon return views the health message.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/02/11 12:43 PM

Here are a few more 'obscure' statements from the SOP that need more attention and discussion IMO.

Quote:
“Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]” Manuscript Releases Volume Nineteen [Nos. 1360-1419] (1900)

“The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation...” Review and Herald, 9/25/1883

“There is no excuse for any one in taking the position… that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error.” – Review and Herald, December 20, 1892.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/02/11 04:58 PM

I readily see, based upon what the properly analyzed facts show in regards to the SOP’s statements on prophetic time after 18844, that any such EGW statements (pointedly future-casted statements which quote prophecies that include time elements), involve any aspect of that prophecy except for a literal/symbolic definite reckoning of that time element. Thus for the 19MR quoting, the “42 months” in Rev 13:5 would not (again) have a definite fulfillment, but as shown above in Post #134837, would be spiritually indicative of what type fulfillment to expect in the future.

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, September 25, 1883 par. 6
In the Scriptures are presented truths that relate especially to our own time. To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth's history, and presents the duties and dangers of God's people. None need remain in ignorance, none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God.


Succinctly said here, It is clear to me from the context of that quoted statement that EGW had here in mind “Daniel prophecies” and not pointedly his time elements. Thus also “prophetic events” [“periods” = “seasons”] leading up to the great consummation.

Originally Posted By: SOP RH, December 20, 1892 par. 1
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ. The Lord designs that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." But Jesus says to these self-complacent ones, Thou "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Let us individually inquire, Do these words describe my case? If so, the True Witness counsels us, saying, "Buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see."


Quite interesting... “our”... so EGW inclusively did not believe that her on contributing exposition of Scripture were inerrant and infallible. The wider context is indeed quite pointed against such a view.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/03/11 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Quite interesting... “our”... so EGW . . . did not believe that her o[w]n . . . exposition[s] of Scripture were inerrant. . . The wider context is . . . against such a view.
I agree NJK, that is truly what she's saying. She was not infallable in her prophetic and doctrinal expositions. This is rather disturbing to most conservative Adventists like myself, but here she puts her own fallibility in black and White. Brothers and sisters, we can't let this shake our faith in her inspiration. But on the other hand we have to take this difficult statement as it reads. Her statement of her own fallibility here is certainly consistent with her counsel to base all doctrines on the Bible alone and not on her writings.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/03/11 02:10 AM

This shows that she rightly understood the gift of prophecy and as stated in this Post #134871 direct revelations of her fall into a different category than her “according to [her] knowledge (then)” statements

(By the way, if you reread carefully what EGW said and what this involved/implied, you would see that my other words there do have their pertinent place. As I see it, this helps to avoid quibbling follow up questions/comments (which are much more time consuming/wasting than just reading those (possibly pre-emptive) qualifying words...as is this editing a quote of my statement for that matter), as those probably overlooked points are thus emphasized and/or pointed out. So this exclusion of them actually over/under-generalizes and over/under-applies what she is saying, e.g., the relation of that statement to the above mentioned direct revelations.)

Thus, e.g., in regards to her ‘end of all prophetic time’ direct revelation (which she also indicates is not merely non-second coming prophecies (if there were/are actually any such prophecies in the Bible), that matter has been injunctively, directly and unequivocally settled by God’s Himself.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/03/11 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Quite interesting... “our”... so EGW . . . did not believe that her o[w]n . . . exposition[s] of Scripture were inerrant. . . The wider context is . . . against such a view.
I agree NJK, that is truly what she's saying. She was not infallable in her prophetic and doctrinal expositions. This is rather disturbing to most conservative Adventists like myself, but here she puts her own fallibility in black and White. Brothers and sisters, we can't let this shake our faith in her inspiration. But on the other hand we have to take this difficult statement as it reads. Her statement of her own fallibility here is certainly consistent with her counsel to base all doctrines on the Bible alone and not on her writings.


Ellen White was teachable. She once told a man who was teaching that pork was an unclean food to keep it to himself if God was leading him to that understanding because God had not seen fit to share that teaching with the church. Then she had the vision of the health message and got on the band wagon.

So she did progress in her understanding.

But more often than not her positions are sound and not in need of change, it is how successive generations of SDA scholars have turned some of them inside out by not understanding what she wrote and explaining her views as though they were the same as how they read them like that nonsense that there is no time prophecy after 1844.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/03/11 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
But more often than not her positions are sound and not in need of change, it is how successive generations of SDA scholars have turned some of them inside out by not understanding what she wrote and explaining her views as though they were the same as how they read them...


Having seen many examples of this with some SDA scholars, I agree. However many have, through proper scholarship, established, even surfacely “rescued”, many of the statements she made which seemed to not be in harmony with the Bible, or even rationally logical.

Originally Posted By: His child
...like that nonsense that there is no time prophecy after 1844.


From your responses thus far in this thread I have not seen that you have proven your case for this “nonsense” claim. And it actually makes perfect sense since ‘a day in Bible prophecy symbolically represents a year’ as proven in Church History. So you’ll also need to provide Biblical/SOP support why time prophecies beyond 1844 should be interpreted in a ‘day for day” way.

And the “sensical” fact is, as stated before, as never before, in the time of the end, the Second Coming of Jesus can occur at any fitting moment and is not restricted by time. (= Rev 22:7, 12, 20's “soon/quickly”).
Posted By: Charity

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/04/11 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Thus, e.g., in regards to her ‘end of all prophetic time’ direct revelation . . .

There are two issues with her time prohibition statements: 1)Are they direct revelations as you believe or are they her views and 2) Are her statements on this as broad as the main body of conservative Adventists think. NJK, I haven't studied the first issue. Can you set out your case by underlining the parts of her quotes that you think support the notion that she was directly shown by God the correct interpretation of the 'time no longer' phrase in Revelation 10:6 and any other related passages.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/04/11 07:22 PM

See e.g, RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12 & 2 SM 73.2 in this prior post (#133709) in this thread for the first issue (can’t miss them) and the first section in this recent post #134966 of mine (and my blog link) in regards to the second one.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/05/11 04:42 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
See e.g, RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12 & 2 SM 73.2 in this prior post (#133709) in this thread for the first issue (can’t miss them) and the first section in this recent post #134966 of mine (and my blog link) in regards to the second one.


How does EGW view time-setting?
Quote:
“The above, relative to time-setting, was printed nearly thirty years ago, and the books have been circulated everywhere. Yet some ministers claiming to be well acquainted with me, make the statements that I have set time after time for the Lord to come and those times have passed ... This is the testimony I have borne ever since the passing of the time in 1844 [when Jesus did not come]: ‘Time after time will be set by different ones which will pass by; and the influence of this time-setting will be to destroy the faith of God's people.’ If I had seen in vision, and borne my testimony to definite time [for Jesus to come], I could not have written and published, in the face of this testimony, that all times that should be set would pass, for the time of trouble must come before the coming of Christ. Certainly for the last thirty years, that is, since the publication of this statement, I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving. I had no vision until 1845 which was after the passing of the time of general expectation in 1844. I was then shown that many would be deceived, and would set different times for the Lord to come, and urge them upon their brethren. But the Lord showed me that these times would pass; for the time of trouble must come before the coming of Christ; and that every time thus set and passed, would only weaken the faith of God's people. Has not this testimony which has been before the public nearly thirty years in published form been fulfilled in every particular? The First-day Adventists have set time after time, and notwithstanding the repeated failures, they have gathered courage to set new times. God has not led them in this. Many of them have denounced the prophetic time, and the fulfillment of marked events in prophecy, because the time passed in 1844, and did not bring the expected event. They rejected the true prophetic time, and the enemy has had power to bring strong delusions upon them that they should believe a lie. I have borne the testimony since the passing of the time in 1844, that there should be no definite time set by which to test God's people. The great test on time was in 1843 and 1844; and all who have set time since these great periods marked in prophecy were deceiving and being deceived. {LS80 221.1}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/05/11 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
How does EGW view time-setting? {...}


Seems clear to me that she opposed it in any form from what she says here, along with her statements elsewhere, as exegetically/contextualizingly due. The “rejected [past tense] true prophetic time” statement is just a restatement of the previously mentioned 1843/1844 ending prophetic time. There was indeed a shut door for those who knowingly rejected that light.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/06/11 03:17 PM

The Lord has seen our backslidings, and he has a controversy with his people. Their pride, their selfishness, their opening of the mind to doubt and unbelief, are manifest in his sight, and grieve his heart of love. Many gather darkness about their souls as a garment, and virtually say,"We want not a knowledge of thy way, O God; we choose our own way." These are the things that separate the soul from God. There is in the soul of man an obstacle which he holds there with stubborn persistency, and which interposes between his soul and God. It is unbelief. God gives sufficient evidence, but man, with his unsanctified will, refuses to receive evidence unless it comes in his own way, to favor his own ideas. With a spirit of bravado he cries, "Proof, proof, is what we want," and turns away from the evidence that God gives. He talks doubt, unbelief, sowing the seeds of evil which will spring up and yield their harvest. He is separating his soul farther and farther from God. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 1}

Is it proof that such men need? Is it evidence that is wanting?--No; the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is given to help all such souls who are turning away from positive evidence, and crying, "Proof"! The rich man asked that one might be sent from the dead to warn his brethren, lest they come to the place of torment. "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 2}

Why is it that men do not believe upon sufficient evidence?--Because they do not want to be convinced. They have no disposition to give up their own will for God's will. They are unwilling to acknowledge that they have cherished sinful unbelief in resisting the light that God has given them. They have been hunting for doubts, for pegs upon which to hang their unbelief. They have been ready to accept testimony which is weak and insufficient, testimony which God has not given them in his word, but which pleases them because it agrees with their ideas, and is in harmony with their disposition and will. These souls are in great peril. If they will bow their proud will, and put it on God's side of the question; if they will with humble, contrite hearts seek for the light, believing that there is light for them, then they will see light, because the eye is single to discern the light which comes from God. They will acknowledge the evidence of divine authority. Spiritual truths will shine forth from the divine page. But the heart must be open for the reception of light, for Satan is ever ready to obscure the precious truth which would make them wise unto salvation. If any do not receive it, it will forever remain a mystery of mysteries to them. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 3}

We should earnestly seek to know and appreciate the truth, that we may present it to others as it is in Jesus. We need to have a correct estimate of the value of our own souls; then we would not be as reckless in regard to our course of action as at present. We would seek most earnestly to know God's way; we would work in an opposite direction from selfishness, and our constant prayer would be that we might have the mind of Christ, that we might be molded and fashioned after his likeness. It is in looking to Jesus and beholding his loveliness, having our eyes steadfastly fixed upon him, that we become changed into his image. He will give grace to all that keep his way, and do his will, and walk in truth. But those who love their own way, who worship their idols of opinion, and do not love God and obey his word, will continue to walk in darkness. O, how terrible is unbelief! As well let light be poured upon the blind, as to present truth to these souls; the one cannot see, and the other will not see. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 4}

I beseech you whose names are registered on the church-book as worthy members, to be indeed worthy, through the virtue of Christ. Mercy and truth and the love of God are promised to the humble and contrite soul. The displeasure and judgments of God are against those who persist in walking in their own ways, loving self, loving the praise of men. They will certainly be swept into the satanic delusions of these last days, because they received not the love of the truth. Because the Lord has, in former days, blessed and honored them, they flatter themselves that they are chosen and true, and do not need warning and instruction and reproof. The True Witness says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." The professed people of God have the charge against them, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 5}

The love to Jesus that once burned upon the altar of the heart, has become dimmed and nearly extinguished. Spiritual strength has become enfeebled. The displeasure of the Lord is against his people. In their present condition it is impossible for them to represent the character of Christ. And when the True Witness has sent them counsel, reproof, and warnings because he loves them, they have refused to receive the message; they have refused to come to the light, lest their deeds should be reproved. Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep. . . . Therefore doth my Father love me." "By taking your sins upon myself, I am opening a channel through which his grace can flow to all who will accept it. In giving myself for the sin of the world, I have prepared a way for the unrepressed tide of his love to flow to men." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 6}

All heaven is filled with amazement, that when this love, so broad, so deep, so rich and full, is presented to men who have known the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, they are so indifferent, so cold and unmoved. What does it mean that such amazing grace does not soften our hard hearts? O! it is because of the power of unbelief; because "thou hast left thy first love." This is why the word of God has so little influence. It is as a fire, but it cannot penetrate nor warm the ice-bound heart that cherishes unbelief. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 7}

The infinite treasures of truth have been accumulating from age to age. No representation could adequately impress us with the extent, the richness, of these vast resources. They are awaiting the demand of those who appreciate them. These gems of truth are to be gathered up by God's remnant people, to be given by them to the world; but self-confidence and obduracy of soul refuse the blessed treasure. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Such love cannot be measured, neither can it be expressed. John calls upon the world to "behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God." It is a love that passeth knowledge. In the fullness of the sacrifice, nothing was withheld: Jesus gave himself. God designs that his people shall love one another as Christ loved us. They are to educate and train the soul for this love. They are to reflect this love in their own character, to reflect it to the world. Each should look upon this as his work. In his prayer to the Father, Jesus said: "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." Christ's fullness is to be presented to the world by those who have become partakers of his grace. They are to do that for Christ which Christ did for the Father,--represent his character. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 8}

There is a lack of moral and spiritual power throughout our Conferences. Many churches do not have light in themselves. The members do not give evidence that they are branches of the True Vine, by bearing much fruit to the glory of God, but appear to be withering away. Their Redeemer has withdrawn his light, the inspiration of his Holy Spirit, from their assemblies; for they have ceased to represent the self-denial, the sympathy and compassionate love of the world's Redeemer; they have not love for the souls for whom Christ has died. They have ceased to be true and faithful. It is a sad picture,--the feeble piety, the want of consecration and devotion to God. There has been a separation of the soul from God; many have cut off the communication between him and the soul by refusing his messengers and his message. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 9}

In our largest churches the greatest evils exist, because these have had the greatest light. They have not a true knowledge of God, and of Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The leaven of unbelief is working, and unless these evils which bring the displeasure of God are corrected in its members, the whole church stands accountable for them. The deep movings of the Spirit of God are not with them; the glorious presence of the King of saints, and his power to cleanse from all moral defilement, are not manifest among them. Many come to the assembly as worshipers, like the door upon its hinges. They understand not the true application of the Scriptures, nor the power of God. They have eyes, but they see not; ears have they, but they hear not; they continue in their evil ways, yet regard themselves as the privileged, obedient people who are doers of the word. A carnal security and ease in Zion prevail. Peace, peace, is sounded in her borders, when God has not spoken peace. They have forfeited the terms of peace; there is reason for an alarm to be sounded in all "my holy mountain." The sinners in Zion should be afraid, in a time when they do not expect it, sudden destruction will surely come upon all who are at ease. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 10}

The Holy Spirit strives to make apparent the claims of God, but men pay heed only for a moment, and turn their minds to other things: Satan catches away the seeds of truth; the gracious influence of the Spirit of God is effectually resisted. Thus many are grieving away the Holy Spirit for the last time, and they know it not. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 11}

The words spoken by Christ of Jerusalem are, "Your house is left unto you desolate." What anguish of soul did Jesus feel when all his appeals, his warnings and reproofs, were resisted! At the time he brought them home to the soul, impressions were made; but self-love, self-sufficiency, love of the world, came in and choked the good seed sown. Pride of heart prevented his hearers from humbling themselves before God, and confessing their sin in resisting his Holy Spirit, and reluctantly it left them. On the crest of Olivet, as he beheld the city, he wept over it, saying, "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!" Here he paused; he was loth to utter the irrevocable sentence. O that Jerusalem would repent! When the fast westering sun should pass out of sight, her day of mercy would be ended. Jesus closed his sentence, "But now they are hid from thine eyes." On another occasion he lamented the impenitence of the chosen city: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." The Lord forbid that this scene should now be repeated in the experience of God's professed people! "My Spirit," he says, "shall not always strive with man." The time will come when it must be said of the impenitent, "Ephraim is joined to his idols; let him alone." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 12}

Will the church see where she has fallen? A coldness, hardness of heart, a want of sympathy for the brethren, exists in the church. An absence of love for the erring is manifested. There is a withdrawing from the very ones who need pity and help. A severity, an overbearing spirit, such as existed among the Pharisees, exists in our churches, and especially in those intrusted with sacred responsibilities. They are lifted up in self-esteem and self-assurance. The widow and the fatherless have not their sympathy or their love. This is entirely unlike the spirit of Christ. The Lord looks with displeasure upon the coarse, harsh spirit that has been manifested by some,--a spirit so devoid of sympathy, of tender appreciation of those whom he loves. Brethren, you who close the heart against Christ's suffering ones, remember, that as you deal with them, God will deal with you. When you call, he will not say, "Here I am;" when you cry, he will not answer. Satan is watching, preparing his delusions to ensnare those who are filled with self-importance while they are spiritually destitute. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 13}

The road to paradise is not one of self-exaltation, but of repentance, confession, humiliation, of faith and obedience. The message to the Laodicean Church is appropriate to the church at this time: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent." There are many who are priding themselves upon their spiritual riches, their knowledge of the truth, and are living in guilty self-deception. When the members of the church humble themselves before God by zealous, not half-hearted, lifeless action, the Lord will receive them. But he declares, "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." How long shall this warning be resisted? How long shall it be slighted? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 14}

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." The position of Christ is the attitude of forbearance and importunity. "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich." O, the soul-poverty is alarming! And those who are most in need of the gold of love, feel rich and increased with goods, when they lack every grace. Having lost faith and love, they have lost everything. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 15}

The Lord has sent a message to arouse his people to repent, and do their first works; but how has his message been received? While some have heeded it, others have cast contempt and reproach on the message and the messenger. Spirituality deadened, humility and childlike simplicity gone, a mechanical, formal profession of faith has taken the place of love and devotion. Is this mournful condition of things to continue? is the lamp of God's love to go out in darkness? The Saviour calls; listen to his voice: "Be zealous and repent." Repent, confess your sins, and you will be forgiven. "Turn ye, turn ye; for why will ye die?" Why will you try to rekindle a mere fitful fire, and walk in the sparks of your own kindling? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 16}

The True Witness declares, "I know thy works." "Repent, and do the first works." This is the true test, the evidence that the Spirit of God is working in the heart to imbue you with his love. "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." The church is like the unproductive tree which, receiving the dew and rain and sunshine, should have produced an abundance of fruit, but on which the divine search discovers nothing but leaves. Solemn thought for our churches! solemn, indeed, for every individual! Marvelous is the patience and forbearance of God; but "except thou repent," it will be exhausted; the churches, our institutions, will go from weakness to weakness, from cold formality to deadness, while they are saying, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." The True Witness says, "And knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Will they ever see clearly their condition? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 17}

There is to be in the churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations, they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should not we know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?"--Because they did not respond to the warnings, the entreaties of the messages of God, but persistently said, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." Talent, long experience, will not make men channels of light, unless they place themselves under the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and are called, and chosen, and prepared by the endowment of the Holy Spirit. When men who handle sacred things will humble themselves under the mighty hand of God, the Lord will lift them up. He will make them men of discernment--men rich in the grace of his Spirit. Their strong, selfish traits of character, their stubbornness, will be seen in the light shining from the Light of the world. "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."If you seek the Lord with all your heart, he will be found of you. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 18}

The end is near! We have not a moment to lose! Light is to shine forth from God's people in clear, distinct rays, bringing Jesus before the churches and before the world. Our work is not to be restricted to those who already know the truth; our field is the world. The instrumentalities to be used are those souls who gladly receive the light of truth which God communicates to them. These are God's agencies for communicating the knowledge of truth to the world. If through the grace of Christ his people will become new bottles, he will fill them with the new wine. God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered, and replaced in the frame-work of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph. As Christ's ambassadors, they are to search the Scriptures, to seek for the truths that have been hidden beneath the rubbish of error. And every ray of light received is to be communicated to others. One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 19}

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." "Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord." This is what needs to be brought into the experience of every worker, high or low, in all our institutions, in all our churches. God wants every soul to return to the first love. He wants all to have the gold of faith and love, so that they can draw from the treasure to impart to others who need it. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 20}

Then the believers will be of one heart and of one mind, and the Lord will make his word powerful in the earth. New cities and villages and territories will be entered; the church will arise and shine, because her light has come, for the glory of the Lord is risen upon her. New converts will be added to the churches, and those who now claim to be converted will feel in their own hearts the transforming power of the grace of Christ. Then Satan will be aroused, and will excite the bitterest persecution against God's people. But those not of our faith, who have not rejected light, will recognize the spirit of Christ in his true followers, and will take their stand with the people of God. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 21}

Christ says, speaking of the Comforter, "He shall not speak of himself;" "he shall testify of me;" "he shall glorify me." How little has Christ been preached! The laborers have presented theories, plenty of them, but little of Christ and his love. As the Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of his love, so the Spirit came to glorify Christ by revealing to
the world the riches of his love and grace. If the Holy Spirit dwells in us, our work will testify to the fact, we shall lift up Jesus. Not one can afford to be silent now; the burden of the work is to present Christ to the world. All who venture to have their own way, who do not join the angels who are sent from heaven with a message to fill the whole earth with its glory, will be passed by. The work will go forward to victory without them, and they will have no part in its triumph.

Mrs. E. G. White.
{RH, December 23, 1890 par. 22}
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/06/11 10:19 PM

It is quite comical His child that you can’t objectively and transparently prove, nor even demonstrate that your views are Biblical, i.e., by just posting the exact dates and specific events of even just fulfilled interpretations in your view, (let alone future, supposed to be fulfilled, future event), but you patently usurp EGW statements to try to justify yourself. Not fooling, nor impressing me!! (e.g., Matt 4:5-7) And this scheming surely won’t get to buy your books.
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/09/11 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
It is quite comical His child that you can’t objectively and transparently prove, nor even demonstrate that your views are Biblical, i.e., by just posting the exact dates and specific events of even just fulfilled interpretations in your view, (let alone future, supposed to be fulfilled, future event), but you patently usurp EGW statements to try to justify yourself. Not fooling, nor impressing me!! (e.g., Matt 4:5-7) And this scheming surely won’t get to buy your books.


Bible truth is not linked to a comedy. Misunderstanding of it is a tragedy. Tragedy that is often repeated
Originally Posted By: EGW
The great error with churches in all ages has been to reach a certain point in their understanding of Bible truth and there stop. There they anchored. They ceased to “Go forward,” as much as to say, “We have all-sufficient light. We need no more.” And they refuse light.1888 826.2


And that happened in our church too!

Originally Posted By: EGW
After the message of warning was given, a confederacy was formed that would not receive the message. They kept themselves barricaded, fearing that if they should evidence that they did receive light there was a trapdoor ready to let them through into some dangerous pit. The richest treasures of truth were opened before them. Every mind needed the jewels and gems that were revealed, but by confederating together they were deceived and their stakes were set fast.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Those who turn away from the light which God has given, or who neglect to seek it when it is within their reach, are left in darkness. GC88 312.1


I have given freely and continue to do so. But when what I have given is trampled and my views and I are misrepresented, it makes no sense to continue to cast pearls of wisdom before the ones that are trampling them so. Since they take me out of context, why should I give them more ammunition to remove from its setting?

Originally Posted By: EGW
The momentous issues at stake through neglect of the Word of God should be carefully considered. The study of the Bible is worthy of the best mental effort, the most sanctified ability. When new light is presented to the church, it is perilous to shut yourselves away from it. Refusing to hear because you are prejudiced against the message or the messenger will not make your case excusable before God. To condemn that which you have not heard and do not understand will not exalt your wisdom in the eyes of those who are candid in their investigations of truth. And to speak with contempt of those whom God has sent with a message of truth, is folly and madness.TSS 60.1
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/09/11 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Bible truth is not linked to a comedy. Misunderstanding of it is a tragedy. Tragedy that is often repeated


The problem is what you have posted does not check out as Bible Truth. (Isa 8:20). Just your mere, unexegetical and with hermeneutics opinions. As sort of SDA Bible Code. Yet you are still trying to ‘call fire down from Heaven’ for anyone who does not see this and you just cannot explain it. And to me your claim of this being a soon to be fulfilled, final events & chance, message of God, yet you will only sell it to people, makes no Biblical sense to me. It is clearly to me just a “profitic” message on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: SOP 1888 826.2
The great error with churches in all ages has been to reach a certain point in their understanding of Bible truth and there stop. There they anchored. They ceased to “Go forward,” as much as to say, “We have all-sufficient light. We need no more.” And they refuse light.


Originally Posted By: His child
And that happened in our church too!


You are also substantively doing the same thing. I.e., you refuse to correct the pointed out errors and unbiblical methodology in your work, (and that is mainly from what you have presented, as presumedly your best arguments, thus far. As with the SDA Churches refusal to advanced into Biblical light, I see that this is similar rooted in economical reasons. I.e., it will financially cost you to much to now make such corrections.

Originally Posted By: His child
I have given freely and continue to do so. But when what I have given is trampled and my views and I are misrepresented, it makes no sense to continue to cast pearls of wisdom before the ones that are trampling them so. Since they take me out of context, why should I give them more ammunition to remove from its setting?


If the problem is ‘a lack of context’ (I however don’t see how what you are claiming is thus redeemable), then why not post an entire book online for free. If it “truly” will be redeemed by its context then that itself would boost your sales, as then everyone will clearly see that you know what you are doing and are preaching sound Biblical Truth and will not only probably pay the full price for the book but will encourage others to buy it. You can even restrict this free distribution for those who email you a request for this free PDF copy.

“Surely” the posting of the entire context/setting would not be “more ammunition” unless the entire book is also deservingly so!!

To me your whole approach, from message formulation to its capitalistic distribution does not harmonize with your effective claim (i.e., by your accompany denunciations) that it is a ‘(short) time-dependent, prophetic message, from God’.

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: SOP TSS 60.1
The momentous issues at stake through neglect of the Word of God should be carefully considered. The study of the Bible is worthy of the best mental effort, the most sanctified ability. When new light is presented to the church, it is perilous to shut yourselves away from it. Refusing to hear because you are prejudiced against the message or the messenger will not make your case excusable before God. To condemn that which you have not heard and do not understand will not exalt your wisdom in the eyes of those who are candid in their investigations of truth. And to speak with contempt of those whom God has sent with a message of truth, is folly and madness.


You are the one who is both (a) encouraging and (b) preventing this by (a) not clearly, transparently and demonstrably proving what you are claiming as “God’s prophetic truth” but rather making dooming condemnations, and (b) by restricting the full/transparent access to even one of your expositions, instead using a ‘pay for God’s truth’ approach. To me, especially given the many unresolved strikes against you, that is just patently a “con artistry scheme”, especially since there is no money back guarantee for those time prophecies. Why should people pay to read your mere opinions, which are in fact arrived at through unbiblical/unexegetical measures.

Again why don’t you simply post the dates and events of your claimed past fulfillments, and also the future ones?? Why does someone need to, as they are only left to with you, first pay before they can decide if those claims are objectively true or not. William Miller started a massive prophetic movement by freely proclaiming what had taken him years of study to arrive at.

People can and will always freely choose whether to believe you or not, (even God has to put up with this, yet He freely gave His Son), but to first require money from them before they can make this decision for moreoverly a “timed prophetic message”, seems rather, generally, pre-emptively, or reactionarily, vindictive to me. The Biblical (i.e., not worldly/Capitalistic) model for God’s True People in regards to His message (Matt 10:7-10) is to ‘receive as a free gift what you and/or you work is worthy of’ and not require this in advance. That is indeed how the publishing work of the Early Adventists began. But of course both you and the Church prefer to go by the Capitalistic method/mandate, even if this is by supposed necessity (= Rev 13:16, 17). Good Luck!!
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/10/11 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Again why don’t you simply post the dates and events of your claimed past fulfillments, and also the future ones?? Why does someone need to, as they are only left to with you, first pay before they can decide if those claims are objectively true or not. William Miller started a massive prophetic movement by freely proclaiming what had taken him years of study to arrive at.


Since I give away more than I can afford on a weekly basis and I cannot afford to give to everyone who asks, I am compelled to be selective. Certainly a farmer would not be advised to sow his seed in a field that was so muddy that his tractor could not work it.

And since you choose to to fault everything I post, you would be better served to get the information from the source. The Lord blessed my prayers and countless hours of study. He will bless yours as well and it won't be something I said, it will be God revealing truth to you so you can trust it.

But if God should allow for you to loose your job, house, family, and many friends because He shows you something that is not popular, hang in there. And practice rejoicing when people find fault with everything you say. It may be that the Lord is training you to meet real difficulties when they come (and they will be here very soon).

I do thank you for asking. When I was reading over material in Daniel today, I found a mistake in my study. I am dyslexic and inverted some numbers. It was a blessing in disguise. When I prayed and studied the Lord showed me more than I could imagine. But had I shared those scrambled numbers to you, I would have had to try to straighten it out and that would have been more work than it is worth. And had you purchased my book, you might have pressed me for an $80.00 refund on you $20.00 investment. So now that the Lord has given me more facts and figures, I rejoice and continue my prayerful study.

God is so good. Amen
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/10/11 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Since I give away more than I can afford on a weekly basis and I cannot afford to give to everyone who asks, I am compelled to be selective. Certainly a farmer would not be advised to sow his seed in a field that was so muddy that his tractor could not work it.


Just asked you to transparently published the dates and events for your claims of past and future prophetic events. That’s Biblical (Isa 41:21-24, 26; 44:7; cf. Deut 18:22). Obviously you just can’t do that and your “Seed/pearls” excuses don’t begin to Biblically/(Exegetically) justify you.

And surely one freely accessed full book that “should” clearly demonstrate your Biblicalness should be detrimental to you and only serve to boost the sales of your other books, as well as generate free will donations, even beyond the price of that freely released books. E.g., Samuele Bacchiocchi, being a self-published author like you by SDA Publishers, used to freely provide a lot of info into his books during his weekend Sabbath Enrichment seminars and the sales of his books was not lessened, but only heightened.

Originally Posted By: His child
And since you choose to to fault everything I post,


Not that hard actually...there are faults in what you post. And do notice that I focus mostly on factual issues and just ignore your mere resulting speculative claims (e.g., your claim for the 7 Heads). And all that you have/had to do for those pointed out faults is provide the factually/exegetically/biblically resolving answer!??

Originally Posted By: His child
you would be better served to get the information from the source.


If the outspring is bitter, how can the source be sweet??? And you do not even state, for most of what I have posted, that you have the answer for those pointed objection in your book.

Originally Posted By: His child
The Lord blessed my prayers and countless hours of study. He will bless yours as well and it won't be something I said, it will be God revealing truth to you so you can trust it.


I verify whatever I “hear” with what the Bible says. (Isa 8:20). You seem to have the Mormon “feeling of Truth” approach.

Originally Posted By: His child
But if God should allow for you to loose your job, house, family, and many friends because He shows you something that is not popular, hang in there. And practice rejoicing when people find fault with everything you say. It may be that the Lord is training you to meet real difficulties when they come


Or it may be that, like King Saul, you stop advancing where God had (exegetically) planned for you to be a long time ago... (E.g, 1 Sam 15:20-35 Just because God did not overthrow King Saul for over 13 years after He had chosen David to replace him, it does not mean that God himself was still ‘constructively working with him’ (1 Sam 16:14ff). Yet God still prevented physical harm from occurring to Saul.

Originally Posted By: His child
(and they will be here very soon).


If your message is so “prophetic”, as you want people to believe when hawking your books (but not, e.g., Post #134223 when asked to substantiate your prophetic claims), then do state the datum specifics of your “timed messages claims.”

Originally Posted By: His child
I do thank you for asking. When I was reading over material in Daniel today, I found a mistake in my study. I am dyslexic and inverted some numbers. It was a blessing in disguise. When I prayed and studied the Lord showed me more than I could imagine. But had I shared those scrambled numbers to you, I would have had to try to straighten it out and that would have been more work than it is worth. And had you purchased my book, you might have pressed me for an $80.00 refund on you $20.00 investment. So now that the Lord has given me more facts and figures, I rejoice and continue my prayerful study.


You’re welcome. Glad I contributed in correcting that mistake of yours. (Not sure if that means that this mistake is also in a currently published book). Now on to the other ones if cited....

Manifestly you prefer to still sell your books that contain those mistakes than provide the corrections, which could easily be done through an “errata webpage.”
Posted By: His child

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/26/11 03:47 AM

Unfortunately, we have become accustomed to being spoon fed. For example, when we watch TV we see who done it, how they were caught and the conclusion in an hour. It is a done deal.

In Bible study, we have come to expect that the study can be comprehensive on every topic of choice. Here's the study, that's the way it is.

But in reality as prophecy and history merge, it is difficult to correctly follow truth. The naysayers muddy the water and the saints filter out the debris as they search for truth.

thus truth can be hard to find and if those that think that they have it only have a partial understanding that has to be refined and purified some of the saints loose patience before they can' get the whole story
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 07/26/11 08:10 AM

It actually would seem rather simple to me, especially since you are claiming to have figured it all out. I.e., you have ‘correctly interpreted, currently fulfilling, time prophecies, and furthermore, you know who the actors in these propecies are, namely, e.g., Iran, Obama, Pope Benedict, etc. So why not simply give the start and end dates for those time prophecies. E.g., when William Miller, led by God, made those same claims about his panoply of time prophecies he, at the very least, gave all of his dating, and which events to expect, and that freely. Why not with this supposedly ‘timely and soon to be fully transpired, message of God’. You’re reasons thus far have not been Biblical, nor how God has worked in the past. Perhaps if you were only charging for the costs of the printing of your already printed books, I would understand. However with the internet today, all of your books and “timely” messages can be freely, a nd in their full context, be broadcast online.

Again I recommend to you the “freewill donation” approach. Who knows, if a wealthy SDA freely reads of your work and “great interpretations” online, they may be impressed to take care of all of your incurred costs during this writing effort.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White - 01/16/14 02:08 PM

I didn't see much different from what I always believed, and nothing that needs to be changed.

There was the statement that what the seven thunders uttered was for the First and Second Angels messages was new information to me, but nothing to cause me to change any point I believe.

I also agree that your additions Mark weren't needed.

My apologies, this response was for Mark, not Rosangela.
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