NJK: is the Amygdala the psyche itself or is it just one of the mechanism that the psyche using in actualizing itself.
APL=Part - all parts make the whole. You can not separate out any part of the nervous system and say, ah, here is the psyche.
I still have the question is the mind/psyche the nervous system itself. As far as I understand, the
nervous system is merely a body-wide signals transmitter via neurons. I.e., the bodies electrical distribution network. However is it the generator that produce the electrical signals that flow through the system. Seems to me that there is a distinct entity (i.e, the mind/psyche) that, through thought produce a signal that is then transmitted through those electrical impulses.
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I’ll indeed concede that some things can be genetically passed on.
Not all "sin" was experienced in the garden. EGW makes a fascinating statement, that there has not been just one fall, but a sequence of fall, each worse that the prior. Here are two:
Note the reasons why, and actualizations of, these further “falls” from EGW statements
Would that man had stopped falling with Adam. But there has been a succession of falls. Men will not take warning from Adam's experience. They will indulge appetite and passion in direct violation of the law of God, and at the same time continue to mourn Adam's transgression, which brought sin into the world. {RH, March 4, 1875 par. 8}
From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of health, beauty, and moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing. Obedience to God's law in every respect would save men from intemperance, licentiousness, and disease of every type. No one can violate natural law without suffering the penalty. {RH, March 4, 1875 par. 9}
It seems clear to me that the reasons for these further falls is the increased violation of God’s health and moral laws. I think further falls have been seen since the days of EGW with e.g, sedentary lifestyles producing obesity related diseases, something not seen in her days. Cancer, Aids, STD’s are all further “falls” in my view and not because of something concocted by Satan himself and injected into man, but simply by the disobedience/violation of God’s moral and natural laws through bolder and more careless behavior.
This tells me that sin is the cause of disease and death, not just a lack of access to the TOL. Yes, the TOL was necessary, but you make the jump to say that the TOL would maintain perfect health. Again EGW
The fruit of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden possessed supernatural virtue. To eat of it was to live forever. Its fruit was the antidote of death. {MM 233.5}
For earth's sin and misery the gospel is the only antidote. {MH 141.2}
So yes, the TOL could maintain life, but it would be a sinner's life and it would be misery. To say that everything in the body would function perfectly seems to me a jump too far. In medicine, we often can keep people alive for long periods of time. But often that life is a miserable experience. Removing the TOL was probably a blessing...
Perhaps if man, though occasionally sinning, did not engage in acts that violate God’s moral or natural laws, as seen in the way many heathen live today e.g., practising “safe, but promiscuous, sexual relation” all the while being exercising vegans, then they could indeed live that life eternally with the Fruit of Life and free from diseases that is generated by “careless” and unhealthful living. That was perhaps the crux of Satan’s argument. Man did not have to obey all God laws, per se, but merely, if they so wanted to, live “carefully” and healthily, but this still being a sinful law. Even a life that only violates the first 3.5 commandments, as they would be having a day of total rest/relaxation per week, just not either on Saturday or to the glory of God. So I still see the GC issue to be: “why did God make it that someone who did not obey all of His laws as He wanted it to be done, die.”
So under this (relatively) good, fit/healthy, careful, albeit God despising sinner, I see that the TOL would have maintain perfect health, even if only dealing with the somewhat intangible adverse effects produced by violating the first 3.5 commandment, if there actually are any. It could very well be that the only advantage in those commandments is, life the fifth, the quite helpful guidance and protection that God, our parent could provide to those who actually love him. As seen in the health message, SDA’s were the first to benefit from it, and the world had to struggle on its own, mainly through pain and pleasure and trial and error, (as indeed seen in the continuing conflicting studies on the supposed benefits of alcohol), before they saw that it was beneficial. Meanwhile SDA’s who followed this message have been living more optimal lives.
Also keep in mind, as it is quite significant that with the TOL still present, the Earth would be in a perfect state and thus be most conducive to optimal life and health.
NJK: So your genetic view may be valid except for the supposed “all inclusive sin junk shot” in the banned fruit.
APL: I don't know what was in the fruit. I don't think is was nothing. I think the fruit was integral to the sin issue, taking scripture and EGW together. Example from Early Writings, speaking about worlds other than earth:
"None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." {EW 39.3}
And scripture, Hebrews 1:3, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:12, Hebrews 2:17, and many more.
I tried, but do not Theologically/exegetically see your “genetics view”, at least entirely, in those passages. To me, having read all of your arguments, they could still be only involving a spiritual aspect of sin. While “hereditary sinful tendencies” may be also involved, to me it is not ‘tangible sin in its entirety’ as you seem to believe.
And what happened in the tree was only the start. As I showed, EGW talks about a succession of falls. If sin were just the believing the lie about God, then is the succession just believing more lies? If the genetic hypothesis is true, what we see is multiple "infestations" of genetic transposable elements. And the "attacks" are not over! New TEs are being discovered. The "war" is still on. So again, I don't know what was in the fruit. God and Satan may have had a deal where if Adam ate the fruit, then Satan would have free reign. EGW does talk about the "seeds" that cause death and tares by "amalgamation", her words, when Adam at the fruit.
I think you can agree that Adam and Eve did not become vile sinners the instant they ate of the Fruit, perhaps, not even for the rest of their lives, actually becoming the fathers of the relatively faithful lineage of the “Sons of God”. Indeed Eve did not even lose her robe of light when she ate of the Fruit. So their Fall, which when compared with their previous sinlessness, would have been a drastic fall in itself. Indeed just like falling/committing a sin for the very first time. There similarly can be quite distinct successive falls from that initial fall, even with the same sin. So I still see that Adam and Eve fall was merely on the Spiritual level. Then as their descendants continued to commit greater sins, indeed with Cain giving in to jealousy and anger killing Abel, successive ‘falls” came as new “sin frontiers” were pursued and boundaries extended by the antediluvians and successive generation. Again from EGW day to our day, even from within my own lifetime, I can say I have seen a further fall of man into sin.
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}
And this one, again, taking the definition of "seed" in Genesis 3:15 to mean, genetics, which I think I've shown is a possible definition, EGW says this:
Man is God's property, and the ruin that has been made of the living habitation, the suffering caused by the seeds of death sown in the human system, are an offense to God.--Medical Ministry, page 229. {Te 87.5}
There is nothing good that I know of with the genetic transposable elements, TEs. There are many scientific papers that point to them causing disease, that some have hypothesized that ALL disease is caused by TEs. In fact there is a strong correlation with some TE and psychiatric diseases.
I rather/still see that Adam and Eve fall, like lucifers, who is intelligent enough to know not to live recklessly, only needed to be Spiritual, yet still be a steep Fall. Then loss of optimal health, even if not (yet) “disease”, even if for them merely aging, came to them, and gradually developed when the TOL was removed. And in successive generations, indeed also through the noxious elements that Satan injected into nature, other types/levels of diseases came to be factored in this “Fall” equation.
But we must not make any final judgment about people. Jesus healed the demoniac. Did Jesus heal the demoniac against his will? No. But the demoniac was so taken over, that he could only utter the words of Satan. We know that there are many addictive substances, and these substances cause genetic switches to be thrown that make it very difficult to quit. This is called chemical "dependency". This is a real physical need that is acquired. Some drug addictions such as barbiturates, can cause death with sudden withdrawal. EGW said this about the demoniac:
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Particularly with mental diseases, God can indeed be the only source of true/full healing vs. bandage chemical balancing/coping.
One last point, all this discussion is speaking about a post fall brain. And I'm going to inject my engineering background here and think about the pre-fall brain, and this is oppinion, I could be wrong. I do not think that God created junk. I do not think God created being that can self-destruct by just thinking wrong. I think the system has been altered. Satan planted the seeds into the system. Now it is vulnerable. Pre-fall, it was not. Sin is messing with the way God designed the system to run. God's work is perfect, His "law", perfect. Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 19:7. Nahum 1:9 tells us affliction will not rise a second time. Why? Will there ever be a time again when people will question God? What about new creatures which are created after the sin problem of now is resolved? I think that sin will not rise again because it will have been shown and well documented that God can be trusted, that His work is perfect, and if you mess with the way His creatures are to operate, it will destroy them. The documentation of this experiment of sin will be there for all in the future to see and review. That's my opinion...
Couple of points here in regards to this opinion. First of all I do not think that man self-destructs merely by thinking wrong. That is why I believe, as Gen 3:22-24 says, that a ‘sinful(-minded) person’ can live eternally. The destruction occurs when those sinful thoughts are acted upon. So e.g., a sinner may just chose to lust after someone else in his mind but never act upon it. Thus they would prevent the risks of diseases that come when lust is physically acted upon.
I have expressed my exegetical view on Nahum 1:9 in this
Post #131487 and responding ones:
#131492;
#131531;
#131548;
#131576;
#131592;
#131623;
#131659;
#131670;
#131690;
#131708;
#131738;
#131748;
#131785. On top of the pre-emptive reason you have stated, I think, given the freedom we will still have, sin will not allowed to be concretized, even if merely mentally, because any sin/sinner manifestation will be summarily judged and eradicated, to the approval of all others.
I also have another view, based on EGW’s “Golden Card” revelation, that, at least beings who have never sinned have a total thought “privacy”, meaning that God
does not, though capable to, read their thoughts. See
here. Perhaps redeemed man will also have this trusting privilege. However sinful thoughts can and would be seen upon merely one’s particular facial “countenance.”