No Prophetic Time after 1844

The world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level is contrasted with our explicit position. Our position is not of all time-proclamation, but specifically that no time-proclamation is to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming, because we do not know when the definite time is. After 1844, there is no specific proclamation of the time of our Lord's coming.

What were the prophetic periods spoken of here? “The time of the cleansing of the sanctuary —which was almost universally believed to take place at the Second Advent—was definitely pointed out.” (GC88 328.2) “The 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843. Accordingly we looked to the end of this year for the coming of the Lord.” (ST, March 30, 1876 par. 1) “God tested and proved His people by the passing of the time in 1843. The mistake made in reckoning the prophetic periods was not at once discovered…” (LS80 186.1)

The prophetic period, the 2300-years extending from 457 BC to 1843 when the Sanctuary was to be cleansed, was definitely pointed out as the time of Christ’s Advent. Early Adventists including Ellen White also knew that the papacy was supreme from 538 AD to 1798, a period of 1260-years within the 2300-years and that the 1290-days foretold in Daniel 12 were the 1290-years from 508 to 1798. Thus when the 1335-days ended in 1843; the prophetic period from 457 BC to 1843 was the 2300-years of Daniel 8:14; and that the 1260, 1290, and 1335-years of Daniel 12 all fit that timeframe perfectly. Ellen White explained: “the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them.” (EW 74.1) But when Jesus did not come in 1843, the early Adventists reexamined and recalculated the prophetic period.

“The prophetic periods reached to 1844 and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843 proved that they would terminate in 1844.” (EW 236.1) How can the same evidence possibly prove that the prophetic period from 457 BC closed in 1843 and terminated a second time in 1844?

The intersection of BC with AD is like a time zone. A man from Chattanooga is doing lunch with a friend in Nashville. To meet at noon, they must specify the time zone because noon in Nashville is 1:00 in Chattanooga, and noon Chattanooga time is 11:00 in Nashville.

Likewise, the 2300-years viewed from the BC perspective ended in 1843 and when viewed from the AD perspective, they ended in 1844. After Christ did not come in 1843, it was discovered that 1844 aligned perfectly with the prophecy of Daniel 9 identifying Christ’s baptism in 27 AD, His crucifixion 3.5-years later, and the gospel going to the Gentiles in 34 AD. This prophecy had 1810-years remaining that counted down to 1844, and “in the year 1844 … the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord’s coming.” (GC88 399.3)

Since Jesus did not come in 1844 either and the dual fulfillment of the 2300-years of prophetic time were understood and it was obvious that time was correct from both the BC and AD perspectives, something other than the timing had to be in error. The cleansing of the Sanctuary that was assumed to be Christ’s Advent was reexamined. “Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw, that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement.” (GC88 422.1 and see 4SP 266.2) The error was not the timing, but the event.


For Seventh-day Adventists, understanding the 2300 and the 1335-years are blessings, but they are blessings that the world has lost. It is a blessing to know that Bible prophecy is true and trustworthy and that Jesus is Coming Again for His saints and that the evil done by the man of sin has been counteracted by light from Heaven that dispels the darkness. It is a blessing to know that Jesus is ministering in the Sanctuary in Heaven; confessing the names of His saints before His Father and the holy angels. And it is a blessing to know that this is the time to live life to the glory of God as one who will be rewarded for the way that the life is lived. And while Jesus is confessing the saints in Heaven, they are also blessed as they confess Him here.

Our position matured as prophetic understanding increased. But since our position is that no time-proclamation is to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 to give the definite time of Christ’s Advent, has a private interpretation changed our position to the world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level? Is the changed signpost now pointing the wrong way? Perhaps misreading of Ellen’s grammatical phrasing is partly at fault? But now instead of being different from the world’s position, our position is: ALL TIME PROPHECY STOPPED at 1844! For our position to be: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844, it has to be different from our position that Ellen set forth that Time prophecy specifying the definite time of our Lord's coming stopped after 1844. In the opening statement, our position is clearly not one of ALL TIME PROPHECY and when the context is considered, Ellen repeatedly links our position to the time of Christ’s Coming.



After the first proclamation of the time of Christ’s Advent that was ordained of Heaven past in 1843 and 1844, the definite time of Christ’s Second Advent was often recalculated by time-setters, who were undermining the faith of God’s people. Then Ellen explains that the world placed all prophetic time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion. But ever since 1844 our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation giving the definite time of our Lord's coming to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and Christ’s coming because we do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that the appointed time is at the door. Then she repeats that the prophetic time in question is the definite time of Christ’s Advent:



Our position has been and should be a belief that is not dependent on knowing the definite time of Christ’s coming. The truth is that: 1) the time proclamations identifying the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1843/44 are scripturally correct; 2) other than the 1843/44 dates, the day or time of Christ’s Advent is not given in Scripture; 3) Christ’s Advent will come at an appointed time; and 4) attempting to recalculate the time of Christ’s Second Advent is biblically unsound eschatology that destroys faith. (See EW 22.1)

Though Ellen White corrected the errors of the time-setters and clearly made a distinction between our position and the position put forth by the world, how did our position that there will be no proclamation giving the day and hour intervening between 1844 and Christ’s Advent get changed to the world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844? “At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” (3SM 31.4)

Ellen White does not contradict herself or the Bible. “I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving.” (LS80 221.1) But by replacing our position with the private interpretation that has crept into the church, our position now contradicts both Ellen White and the Bible regarding prophetic time.

How so? If there is No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844, then the Bible and Ellen White will contradict our position when they cite prophetic time after 1844.

Ellen wrote: “Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated.” (SpTA07 55.1) But as the widely accepted private interpretation tears our position on prophetic time from its context, it also tears the repeating of prophetic history from the very prophecies that predict the history. It asserts: The history will be repeated but not the prophecy.

Is history independent of the prophecy that foretold it? Since prophecy predicts the history, when the prophecy repeats, the history repeats.

When the little book of Daniel was opened in Revelation 10, Heaven consoled the believers, who were disappointed by their misunderstanding of Daniel’s prophecy relating to 1843 and 1844. Heaven declared, “Thou must prophesy again” (v. 11). Thus Daniel and/or Revelation will prophesy again, but the time element is changed because the command is within the context: “there should be time no longer” (v. 6).

In Bible prophecy, a day is a year -- long time. For time to be no longer, when these prophecies prophesy again after that declaration, a day cannot be a year (long time), a day must be literal time.



The prophetic periods of Daniel throw a flood of light upon events to transpire in the end time and with Revelation, they relate especially to our own time. From the context, the command to prophesy again in Revelation also applies to Daniel. In our own time, the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, to which the prophecies of Scripture point, here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. Ellen is not divorcing the prophecies from the history that they foretell. “The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth’s history.” (TM 115.3) “Those things which have been will be repeated.” (17MR 11.1)







Particularly notice Revelation 13:5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Though Ellen states that the 42-months have been fulfilled in the past; 58-years after 1844, she quotes Revelation 13:5 in the context that the 42-months will have a final fulfillment in the last days. They cannot be 1260-years. They are literal time. And by quoting the Bible to predict a specific prophetic time in the last days that intervenes between 1844 and Christ’s Advent, Ellen contradicts the private interpretation: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844.

If not corrected, this private interpretation will steal the blessing from God’s people as Satan has stolen the blessing of prophetic understanding from the world. Heaven’s blessings are not to be carelessly lost or stolen through satanic theories that are accepted as truth!

By their fulfillment, the prophecies of Daniel and John now explain themselves. The 1260, 1290, and 1335-days are waymarks in God’s word to those living in the last days. “The great waymarks of truth, showing us our bearing in prophetic history, are to be carefully guarded, lest they be torn down and replaced with theories that would bring confusion rather than genuine light.” (1MR 54.3)

How do you interpret the following?



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In light of what I have posted, EGW is not contradicting herself. thus she must be saying:'I have borne the testimony since the passing of the time in 1844 [when Christ did not come], that there should be no definite time set [for the Second Advent] by which to test God's people. The great test on time [relating to the hour of Christ's Advent] was in 1843 and 1844; and all who have set time [for the appearing of Christ] since this great period marked in prophecy, were deceiving and being deceived.' {LS88 221.1}

That is the correct meaning of what she said. Or she is contradicting herself and the Bible when she gives an example of prophetic time that intervenes between 1844 and Christ's Advent. Certainly if she had intended us to believe that there is NO prophetic time to intervene between 1844 and Christ's Advent, then she would not have cited any examples of prophetic time in that interval.

By having us misunderstand a plain statement from the Spirit of Prophecy Satan is casting his shadow over the final message so that we will not see the very thing that God put into His word for our admonition.

The error that some would attribute to me is that they want to read me as if I were setting a time for the Second Advent. The test of time has past and it is not coming again! The final test is belief in the Third Angel's Message! My understanding of the time references in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy tell me that IT IS TIME FOR THE 3RD ANGEL'S MESSAGE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY because the Mark of the Beast is soon to be upon us!

His Child,

I tend to agree with you. I was just wondering how you answered such a question. Many people do not seem to grasp the distinction Mrs. White is making between the "definite time" and other prophetic periods. Looking at the context of her statements, it is clear that "definite time" refers to the Second Advent. That does not mean all prophetic times have become null and void. For example, what about the 1000 years (millennium) that Satan and company are here upon the earth, just contemplating all the damage they've caused? Must we say that said millennium can no longer be known? Is it no longer 1000 years?

Obviously, as that period of time is still future, it is a prophetic time. If, as such, it is "no more" after 1844, then it would appear that we have to either reinterpret the timing of it, to put in into the past, or else we have to say there was a contradiction between Mrs. White and the Bible...unless we recognize that Mrs. White is not saying what many think she is.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Dear Green,

Thanks for your encouragement. But alas according to the parable of the 10-Virgins there remains 1/2 the church that awakes too LATE!

What can be done? PRAY & PRAY some more.

Blessings
Henry

If you have not read Echoes of Doomsday that warns about the very day in which we live, it is not too late.

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

Praise the Lord! Half the church is awake!
Two surprises in one day.

Amen!

But how can I let the others go?

I think you are trying too hard to find fault. The 1000 years is not dated in the Bible or SOP. That is what she means by prophetic time. All the prophecies about time have been fulfilled. Those have nothing to do with the millennium.
Harold.

If you would be so kind as to review the context of that comment, you will find that "Mrs. White is not saying what many think she is. "

My three initial posts on prophetic time state very clearly that Mrs. White has been taken out of context regarding prophetic time.

She uses the phrase "prophetic time" almost exclusively to refer to the day and hour of Christ's Advent. She does not use the term prophetic time to mean time elements of prophecy that foretell history that is foretold to transpire in the interval after 1844 up to the time of Christ's Advent.



That is criticism. Is it of God?


Green's point is that it is a specific amount of time that is to transpire after 1844.



That is clearly not what she meant by prophetic time as pointed out in her comments in my first 3 posts on this topic. She clearly states that the world views ALL prophetic time but then she defines our position on "prophetic time" as the time of Christ's Advent, which is not a position that considers ALL prophetic time as meaning the same thing.


As I read this comment that you share, it appears to have missed the context of Green's comment.

It is a short thread. If you take the time to review it and find that I did not understand you correctly, please tell me and Lord willing, we can come to an understanding.

>>>Green's point is that it is a specific amount of time that is to transpire after 1844.>>>

So is eternity. Times in prophecy are specific times. All of them have transpired. The millennium doesn't have any specific times as all the prophetic times have. I don't think it should be included in timed propecies. That is all I mean.

SDA's often teach that Christ will come when the gospel goes to all the world and overlook the statements that say that it is for an appointed time.

lest we split hairs over jargon, I'll move on.

GOd's appointed time, yes. Moving on is a good idea.

Sounds like you are saying there is no more definite time prophecy.
What about Daniel 12? One had objected to those time prophecies because they have no begin nor end dates - no definite time. Would you agree this is still prophetic time, but not definite time just like the 1000 years, which are yet to be fulfilled?

What about Daniel 12? Are you so sure that they have not been fulfilled? The 1260 day prophecy hasn no starting date, either. But we know it is finished. What about the others starting about the same time as that one, or a little before? THey would all end at the same time. Some think that they have. I do. It makes sense. What happened 30 years before the start of the 1260? Or 135 years?

Sounds like Harold is saying there is no more definite time prophecy after 1844.

From my study I conclude quite the opposite - to come to a conclusion that differs from my statements is to read something into the Spirit of Prophecy or to miss something that I wrote. I pray that I have not failed to make myself clear. Perhaps it is just the fact that old ideas are not easily changed regardless of the facts that come to light with Bible study as time goes on?

Since Ellen white states that the world views ALL PROPHETIC TIME AS THE SAME and she states that OUR POSITION is that we will never again have a message giving the day and hour of Christ's Advent, I have been able to follow most of the prophetic time that intervenes between 1844 and Christ's Advent.

2300 literal days ending in Ezra's time
2300-years ending in 1843
and 2300-years ending again in 1844
and it will soon be 2300-days since the 1260, 1290, 1335-days have been fulfilled.

The 70 weeks of years are easy for most SDA's to follow

But when they repeated as literal time 70 weeks 7 times in the endtime, most SDA's are clueless

The 1260-years (42-months) from 538 - 1798 Sda's are on tract

But ask them to explain the 42-months that were repeated in the endtime in the life of John-Paul II.

Most SDA's are clueless about prophetic time that HAS BROUGHT us to the start of the time of trouble. It is not because the word of God is silent.

Why because they have misunderstood Mrs. White about prophetic time.

Thus only 5 of the 10 Virgins will awake in time.

No TIME is not to be an issue again, but understanding that IT IS THE TIME FOR THE 3rd angel's message to go forth with power because the mark of the beast is about to confront us.

The lackadaisical indifference that God's people manifest is unworthy of their high calling. Should their attitude not change in time, then they will bring upon themselves the consequences that God desires so much for them to avoid.

Read the forward of Echoes of Doomsday
get the link from loudcry.2007@gmail.com

It is great to know about the 1260-years, the 1290-years, and the 1335-years!
But the special blessing in the endtime is for those that know the 1260-days, 1290-days, & 1335-days.

They confirm that the word of God is TRUE. Present Truth is ALIVE and well!

quote:Why because they have misunderstood Mrs. White about prophetic time.

By this, I understand that you are not a Seventh-day Adventist. What makes you think that we have misunderstood Mrs. White? Is it because you are adding some more time prophecies to the Bible?
The 2300 years ended in 1844. How can you add to that? And, where in your Bible does it say that only half of the sleeping virgins woke up? Mine says that they all did. Only half of them had no oil, (Spirit), for their lamps.

you assume too much.

I am a 4th generation SDA. My great grandmother received the SDA message in Maine when it was first preached. But my belief in God and the three angel's messages is not based on something that someone else believed. I have studied to show my self approved of God a workman that needs not to be ashamed.



The answer to this question should be self-evident in the first three posts on this thread.



I have often wept over my brothers and sister that take away that which the Lord has been blessed to give us in His word. It is wrong to add to or to take away from the Word of God.



Was I supposed to have added to that?



My Bible does not say that only half the virgins awake. Are you asking about something I said or something that you think I said?



Mine says that too. Unfortunately, the ones that wake up to the fact that they are out of oil come to that realization TOO LATE to do them any good - they missed the wedding.

Harold,

The Bible speaks of 1000 years, don't you think? I'm not quite sure what you mean by "dated." If you mean the start time, then you might be right. But, let me assure you, I am not attempting here to predict the start of the time.

Guess what? When God gave Daniel the 2300-day/year prophecy, God did not give him the start time either. The start time was not at that moment critical, or God would have provided it. Instead, He marked the time with an event that would occur--the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. In the case of the 1000-years, is there an event that would start this time period? Is it not Jesus' coming and taking His saints to Heaven?

Following the decree, the 2300 years begin. Following Christ's advent, the 1000 years begin. Is there any place here where you think I am not correct?

Here are the textual supports that I would lean on in my understanding.



This passage in Revelation tells us some of what to expect at the start, during, and at the end of the 1000 years. Unless one chooses to interpret these revelations recorded by John to have already occurred, such as prior to 1844, then one most reasonably would accept that they are prophecies. Unless one chooses to reinterpret 1000 years to be, say, 1500 years, a million years, or any arbitrary number, for that matter, other than 1000 years, one most reasonably would acknowledge this as a specific time period. Another way of looking at a specific time period would be to call it a period of "definite time."

Now, let's suppose that this time is "arbitrary" in the sense of not being exactly 1000 years. Then we have a small dilemma, or contradiction, with inspiration. Here is the statement:



Multiple times, Ellen White speaks of the 1000 years and of what will be happening during that time. She specifies particularly the event which marks their precise completion--Jesus' standing upon the Mount of Olives and it becoming a plain. That sounds like a "definite time" to me.

As His Child has pointed out, the "definite time" Ellen White speaks of is not referring to ALL prophetic times, but to God's second advent in particular. The context tells us this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Now I can agree with all you say, Green Cochoa. Some believe that the 1000 years is just the 7th in the series of 1000 years.
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8. Adds up.

Imagine finding three people in on accord in this day and age (Of course that is possible they are such small cars)

You may find the following EGW quote to be very relevant and most interesting in relation to this topic:

“Time No Longer”

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, . . . that there should be time no longer. Revelation 10:5, 6. {CTr 344.1}

The mighty Angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part that He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. . . . {CTr 344.2}

After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the instruction comes to John, as to Daniel, in regard to the little book: “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered.”. . . John sees the little book unsealed. . . . Then Daniel’s prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels’ messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. {CTr 344.3}

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. . . . The special light given to John, which was expressed in the seven thunders, was a delineation of events that would transpire under the first and second angels’ messages. . . . The first and second angels’ messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. . . . {CTr 344.4}

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

The Angel’s position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls.—Manuscript 59, 1900 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 19, pp. 319-321). {CTr 344.6} [/quote]

Daryl,

Of all prophetic times which we might choose to look at in our day, which one would you say is the most important? Would you agree with me that it would be the time of Jesus' return? We are told He will come back. The Bible speaks of the day of His coming. It speaks of the hour. But when these times will come is not given. Nonetheless, THE time of all prophetic times would be the Second Advent.

Notice carefully Ellen White's wording in that portion which you highlighted. Do you see how Mrs. White has said "the prophetic time"? What was "the time" in 1844? Was it not predicted to be Jesus' advent? And that was the last such prediction of His return that was to be made based on prophecy of "definite time." There will certainly be a time for Jesus' return. But that time is not to be published in our message to the world ever again. There will not be again a "definite time" that we should preach concerning His coming.

THE time of all times will not be traceable in terms of "definite time." Ellen White and I are agreed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Daryl,

I'll point out one more thing. Suppose we were to remove just one comma from Mrs. White's statement, a comma very probably placed there by one of her editors (unless you believe the editors never adjusted her punctuation). Look at the difference.

"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord."

"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time which would precede the advent of our Lord."

It is easy to see the meaning here which may have been intended and would have been more clearly conveyed without that comma.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"This time [prophetic time from 1842-44] . . . which would precede the advent of our Lord." EGW

"The angel . . . sware . . . that there should be time no longer." (Revelation 10:6)

It is "this time" that shall "be no longer".

Revelation
10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

We cannot reapply the 2300 day prophecy - it shall "be no longer".

After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

I hadn't noticed that before. Does that mean what it appears to mean? What prophetic time began in 1842 and ended in 1844 - a period of 2-3 years? I had just read something in Daniel about a season and a time.

The commentary and others call Chapter 12 an epilogue.
What does an epilogue mean to you?

Imagine me walking down the street and the following scene happening:

Me: I have good news!

Joe on the street: I could use some good news.

Me: I've been studying the book of Daniel and came across some exciting news for these last days!

Joe: I find the Bible to be ancient history.

Me: Oh no! It tells about the future and what's going to happen to us. Our messenger, Ellen White says that we should "read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}".

Joe: I've heard she's non-relevant to our times, too.

Me: Oh, but it is important information for our times. We need to understand this. See. Chapter 12 talks about 1260 days. They started in 538 AD and ended in 1798.

Joe: Uh, dude, 1798 is like.... past history.

Me: (Ignoring his comment) And not only are there 1260 days in the chapter we need to study, but there are 1290 days and 1335 days which ended in 1843. Which was a very important year because it was a mistake. The 2300 days actually ended in 1844.

Joe: (starting to back away) Uhmmm....

Me: Don't you see how relevant and what a warning this to our future and how important it is for us to understand this?

Long time is a day for a year. For this time to be no longer it is no longer a day for a year. The problem that EGW was correcting was that fanatics were trying to find different starting and end dates for the 2300-years.

She thus made it clear that the 2300-years were from 457 BC to 1843 and that God wanted that date as it was.

She then states that the same prophecies that prove 1843 prove 1844. Thus there is a second fulfillment of the 2300-years with one start date - 2 end dates.

But there is not another 2300-years. That does not however mean that there cannot be another 2300-literal days in the endtime that we shall recognize after it is fulfilled.

The term prophetic time in the Spirit of prophecy is used almost exclusively to mean the day and hour of Christ's Advent. After the preaching of Christ's Advent in 1842 that said Jesus would return in 1843, it was discovered that He would not return util 1844.

To say"there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time" is to say there can be no definite tracing of the time of Christ's advent after 1844. This is studied out in detail in the first three posts in this thread.

Blessings

When we understand that EGW was telling us that Daniel and Revelation are to stand in their lot in our day, we can be sure that they apply to our day more than to 1798 - 1844.

In case I did not post it here, the 1260. 1290, & 1335-days of Daniel 12 were all fulfilled 17 May 2005.

There is a blessing to those who understand it.

It is also interesting that it will soon be 2300-days since 17 May 2005. They will end a few weeks before Yom Kippur 2011. Unlike Yom Kippur of 1844 that was on 22 October 1844, it will be 7 October this year.

I take it to mean it reaches to 1844 - not that it began in 1842. She is definitely addressing the 2300 days.

The problem is that we take it differently than EGW means it.

Do a study of "Prophetic time" in EGW's writings and you will see that she almost always links it to the date of Christ's Advent or very near her comment there is a statement about the time of Christ's coming or a date that is linked to Christ's coming like 1842-1844.And 1844 was the end of the 2300-years. so much of her effort is to explain why date setting for another date after 1844 is unsound.

The first 3 posts on this thread examine her most complete statement that clarifies what she means by the term "prophetic time".. She contrasts the world's position that lumps all prophetic time together with "our Position" that is not of ALL PROPHETIC TIME.

What happened on May 17, 2005 that you say fufilled the 1260, 1290, and 1335 prophecies of Daniel 12 and began the literal 2300 days?

What also is going to happen on October 7, 2011 that will fulfill the end of the literal 2300 days that you say began on May 17, 2005?

What if we substitute in 2005 for 1798.
Do you think Joe's reaction would be much different?

1) The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was repeated
(Jerusalem being teaching of peace) 31 May 1998

2) the counterfeit endtime prince of the covenant was anointed on the very day this prophecy indicated in Daniel 9 - 20 January 2001. He was put in office with a protestant mandate to take America back to God. Thus our two founding principles Republicanism and Protestantism met in this man and he perverted these founding principles into something that they were not.

3) The prince failed on 1 September 2001

4) The prince confirmed the covenant with many for one week 17-23 September 2001

5) In the midst of the week 20 September 2001 the prince set up the abomination that makes desolate. He addressed congress and declared the beliefs of Islam to be good. Islam believes that they can go to heaven without the sacrifice of Jesus. Thus the prince of the covenant did away with the Sacrifice and the oblation, which is to apply the sacrifice to the individual to receive the blessing provided by the sacrifice.

6) The prince failed 1 September 2001. That ended one time period and the time period, the 1290-days started the next day 2 September 2001 and it ends 2 April 2005. "Pope John-Paul II’s death came exactly 1290-days after 9/02/01."

That is significant because Daniel speaks of the DAILY which is from a word that means "continual" And in Revelation 13 the pope that receives a deadly wound that is healed is to continue 42-months. Thus Pope John-Paul II continued 42-months from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 and he continued 1290-days from 9/2/01 to 4/2/05.

7) From 9/2/01 to 17 May 2005 is 1335-days. On that day a British intelligence officer leaked a secret report about the counterfeit prince of the covenant that detailed how he planned the war against Iraq before telling Congress. The report proved that he lied to Congress to take America to war as he lied to Congress when he said that the beliefs of Muslims are good when he did away with Christ's Sacrifice and the oblation.

8) Do the math. From 17 May 2005 - 2300-days ends a few weeks before the day of Atonement 7 October 2011.

The last events will be rapid ones.

The sequence in Daniel 11:41-44 states trouble in Egypt, Ethiopia, and Libya. The government changed in Egypt April 2011. The government changed in Southern Sudan which in ancient times was part of Ethiopia. And what about Libya? Today's news?

The same passage says the Edom, Moab, and Ammom will be spared. Jordan had a little skirmish and the king changed the prime minister and made some concessions and nipped it in the bud.

Then Daniel 12 transitions to a time of trouble like the world has never known. immediately after the for mentioned sequence the American Congress and president got into gridlock. Then the stock market fell 2000 points in 2 weeks. They report that it is gaining 300 points, and has had 6 days of gains because it was oversold, etc.

The fact is that it was in the 14000 range and is now in the 11000 range. The proverbial frog is in the pot and getting used to the temp as it heads toward boiling. And the frog states that the prophecy has not reached the time when we should sell off and put god's money into His work. They will hang onto it a little longer so that they can live the good life a little longer and then when the rapid events takes them unawares, they won't have a good account of their stewardship to give to the Lord.

Those that can't discern what voice to listen to in this hour will be in mortal danger.

All this and the biblical proof texts are in Echoes's of Doomsday. http://stores.lulu.com/DanielsRevelation

I am sorry for the delay getting back to you and Daryl.

I have been checking to see if there was any activity on my watched list, but I missed these.

After reading my reply to Daryl's questions, tell me what the man on the street would think about 1798, 2005 and now.
Blessings

I was reading chapter 3 of Last Day Events this morning, and would like to post some statements made by EGW which can be found there:

We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.... Why has not God given us this knowledge?—Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement.... You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. — The Review and Herald, March 22, 1892.

God gives no man a message that it will be five years or ten years or twenty years before this earth’s history shall close. He would not give any living being an excuse for delaying the preparation for His appearing. He would have no one say, as did the unfaithful servant, “My lord delayeth his coming,” for this leads to reckless neglect of the opportunities and privileges given to prepare us for that great day. — The Review and Herald, November 27, 1900.

I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844. — Selected Messages 2:73 (1885).

Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord’s coming. — Manuscript Releases 10:270 (1888).

This message was given in 1892 specifically about an individual who was time setting. That statement is taken out of context if applied to specifics that God has revealed after 1892. The gist of this discussion has been not to set a time for Christ's Advent but to urge His professed followers that it is time for the 3rd Angel's message to go forth in full power because it is time for the Mark of the beast to appear and do its work that is not dependent on time. Thus to misunderstand EGW's counsel on time setting and to misapply it too this message is to say that the Lord delayeth His coming. It is to cry peace and safety and greatly retard the work of God when sudden destruction is at hand.



God forbid that anyone reading these mismatched quotes should put off Christ's Coming for 5, 10, or even 20-years:





The term "definite time" as EGW uses it is in the context of "definite time of Christ's Advent." There are 15 links found to definite time and 1844 that clarify that.
The quote that you found is an earlier quote than the 1892 quote above. But in this quote EGW was giving the same message here that she repeated in 1892.



This is a quote commonly taken out of context by SDA's. Please read the first three posts on this topic. It is clear that Our Position is that prophetic time refers specifically to the day and hour of Christ's Advent. But the world lumps all prophetic time together. so Our Position is specific and the world's is general. There are specific instances of time prophecy in Scripture and the Spirit of prophecy that transpire after 1844 but that so not give the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

Thank you for trying to help clarify things, but thus far the quotes that you recycled don't disagree with the points already made when viewed in their proper context.

Christian Regards,
[/quote]

What EGW says is that "the prophetic periods" closed in 1844 - all of them, and that, after that, no time-proclamation should intervene until the Lord's coming.

She repeats this idea in other passages:

As the disciples went out preaching, “The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” so Miller and his associates proclaimed that the longest and last prophetic period brought to view in the Bible was about to expire, that the Judgment was at hand, and the everlasting kingdom was to be ushered in (GC 351.1).

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

The idea is repeatedly emphasized - there is no prophetic period to be fulfilled after 1844. She says that "there should be time no longer" refers not to the end of this world's history (i.e., to Christ's coming), but to prophetic time.

More precisely, 3 September 2011, that is, next Saturday. What will happen then?

Actually, I found problems with several dates here.


It would end 15 March 2005.


1335 days would be from 9/02/2001 to 29 April 2005.

Dear Rosangela,

If you take the time to do a study of "prophetic time" in the Spirit of prophecy you will learn that EGW uses that term almost exclusively to refer the Day or Hour of Christ's Advent. Thus when she makes a reference to "prophetic time" she is not talking about time prophecy, but prophecy giving the time of Christ's Advent.

Since EGW clearly states

EGW clearly contrasts ALL time prophecy with Our Position which she links to "the time of our Lord's coming" which she knew to be 1844 before the great disappointment.

Thus you turn her statement on its head when you conclude: "She says that "there should be time no longer" refers not to the end of this world's history (i.e., to Christ's coming), but to prophetic time." And of course she cannot be saying what you conclude since she gives at least two instances of fulfilled prophecy that was fulfilled before 1844 that is to be repeated after 1844 and prior to Christ's advent.

But of course this has already been discussed in this thread. So since it has been settled, there is no reason to revisit it without the introduction of information that has been overlooked.

I do appreciate your comments and participation, but I have limited time. So it would be helpful if you would read the thread through so that things that have been clarified won't keep us plowing the same field again and again.

Thank you for your precision

Thank you for noting that error.

I have dyslexia and reverse dates and numbers terribly. I wrote this from memory and will have to go back to my original notes to iron out.

This comment was very helpful. Thank you for taking time to bring it to my attention.

I worked laying block for 10 hrs today. Frankly I am tired , but it is something that I need to sort out and clarify.

9/20/01 is the date I had in Echoes of Doomsday, but when I proofed it I dropped the 0 from the 20.

His Child,
This is not my conclusion; this is what she wrote. Commenting on Rev. 10:6, "And he [the Angel] swore ... that there should be time no longer," she says,

"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord."

The only conclusion I'm drawing here is that "the end of this world's history" is Christ's coming. Do you disagree with this conclusion?

If the end of this world's history is Christ's coming, and if she says that the word "time" here doesn't refer to that, it's clear that when she speaks of "prophetic time," she isn't referring to the setting of a date for Christ's coming.


I don't agree that she gives two instances of time prophecies to be fulfilled after 1844.


I did read it, and I'm just explaining why I disagree with your conclusions.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Julian Date system:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.php
It's the system used by historians, astronomers, etc. It already takes into account leap years and all that, and if you choose 12 o'clock you don't have to deal with decimals.

Dear Rosangela,





Thus we are to expect that in our day, "there will be a misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures." But if you look at that warning carefully, it is in the context of misunderstanding time: "their searching would have been rewarded with a true knowledge of the time, and not only the time...." And as she compares our misreading to that of the Jews, EGW repeats "They were so blinded that they knew not the time of His visitation, or what they were doing. Thus they were fulfilling the Scripture."

Time is not the issue. Misreading the Scriptures was and is the issue. The consequence of misreading the Scriptures was for the Jews to NOT know "the time of His visitation." And from the context, "In this our day, as in Christ's day," the "misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures" will blind us to "a true knowledge of the time" of our visitation.

Time is not the issue for "time will never again be a test." {ExV 61.2} And "The time will never come when the shadow of Satan will not be cast athwart our pathway. Thus the enemy seeks to hide the light shining from the Sun of Righteousness. But our faith should pierce this shadow." {FLB 156.4}



By his fulfillment in our day, we have Daniel explaining himself. When "In this our day, as in Christ's day, there will be a misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures" the book of Daniel will not be understood by those who are misreading and misinterpreting Scriptures as it was not understood by the Jews in their day : "They had the testimony of Daniel" but "they knew not the time of His visitation."

Sister White's terminology can at times be ambiguous. Moving a comma, or taking a quote out of context without comparing it with many other statements on the same topic can make it appear as though she is saying the opposite of what she actually is saying.


When is "the end of this world’s history"? At Christ's coming.

"The people will not have another message upon definite time." The message in 1844 was based on an understanding before the fact that the time was about to be fulfilled. The message began years before the 1844 fulfillment arrived. In the endtime there is not to be a time prophecy pointing to a date, but after the date has arrived, it will be possible to understand the definite time relating to that date.



So the end of prophetic time is not the end of this world's history and history is to be repeated, but your reading of Scripture divorces it from the prophecy that predicted the history.

Daniel and Revelation cannot explain themselves by their fulfillment in these last days to those that are "misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures."

By not understanding the time of our visitation and making time the issue rather than understanding the time and anticipating the proclamation of the third angel's message you cannot give the right message NOW! By not understanding that the time has been fulfilled now, the Lord's coming is put off or delayed, which is the action of an unfaithful servant who declares "the Lord delays His coming."

The opposite is true, His Child. Those who are waiting for time prophecies which were already fulfilled to be fulfilled again, can't believe Christ will come before these prophecies are supposedly fulfilled, and so will be caught unprepared. I live every day as if it was the last one of my life. Christ will come soon - the signs He predicted show that. There are yet some prophecies from Daniel and Revelation to be fulfilled, but the final movements will be rapid ones - they will not be attached to time.

The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.—Testimonies for the Church 9:11 (1909).

Thanks I went to the site. But my brain is to tired to put forth the effort to figure it out tonight. Tomorrow is a new day.

God is so good!

In fact it's not complicated.
If you wish to calculate 2300 days from 17 May 2005, you insert the data: 17 May 2005 12 o'clock and hit "compute Julian date." You obtain JD 2453508. Then you add 2300 to this number and you obtain 2455808. You insert this and hit "compute calendar date," and you will obtain 03 September 2011.

Dear Rosangela,

As I pondered you reply I was reminded of a conversation Jesus had in Luke 10:
28 And he [Jesus] said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said....



Your reply begins with assumed things that are not based on fact. It is not an either or situation: it is a both groups are in danger of loosing their first love.

In my study of Daniel and Revelation I understood the historisist view. Then I encountered their final fulfillment. Not looking for times, I found them. Then I confirmed them in the Spirit of Prophecy. While seeking to understand the word of God, the Holy Spirit led from light unto light. Thus the crux of the matter are God's people so satisfied with the light that they have that they fail to "follow the light" as it moves to greater light?








What is the Present Truth for our day that is being rejected?

1)Daniel 7:17 identifies 4 KINGS from the EARTH as the endtime meaning of the 4-beasts from the SEA

2)Revelation 13 and Daniel 7 use the same symbolism
a)earth is symbolic in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13
b)the earth is symbolic of the USA that is the power that rained fire down from Heaven
c)Truman did this in WWII on 2 cities in Japan
d)the USA will do it again to deceive the nations
e)the USA has Presidents rather than kings

3)Pope John-Paul II is the head of the papal beast that was wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed Revelation 13
a)he continued 42 months after 9/11/01 and died 4/2/05
b)his teaching of peace issued 5/31/98 Dies Domini was the final fulfillment of Daniel 9:25

4)President George Walker Bush II was put into office by a Protestant agenda and was thus THE religio-political official that was anointed as the endtime prince of the covenant at the appointed time (1/20/01)in fulfillment of prophecy
a)he reached his hand across the gulf and grasped the hand of the Roman power,
Pope John-Paul II in 2004
b)he reached his hand across the gulf and grasped the hand of Spiritualism:
"his holiness the Dali Lama" in 2007
c)he reached his hand across the gulf and grasped the hand of the Roman Power,
Pope Benedict XVI in 2008
d)he repudiated the principles of the constitution by holding people indefinitely without trials, etc.

5)Bush II failed at the appointed time (9/1/01)when he returned from his vacation and was not informed about the man in custody that was later learned to be the missing 9/11/01 hijacker

6)Bush II confirmed the covenant (Constitution) with many for 1 week, 9/17/01 to 9/23/01

7)In the midst of the week (9/20/01) he addressed Congress and:
a)set up the abomination that makes desolate
b)at which time, he did away with Christ's Sacrifice
c)at which time, he did away with the oblation

8)Exactly 1290-days from the day that President Bush II set up the abomination that makes desolate and did away with the sacrifice and oblation (9/20/01) Pope John-Paul II died
a)Daniel 12:11 1290-days daily taken away
b)Daily links to continuity, continually, continuously
c) John-Paul II is identified as the one who continues 42-months

9)Exactly 45-days after 4/2/05 it was revealed the Bush II lied to Congress
to take America into war
a)On day 1335 after 9/20/01 the truth about the endtime counterfeit prince of the covenant was revealed
b)that he was lying

10)President Obama is a continuation of President Bush II

11)President Obama is the last President identified in Bible prophecy.
a)Daniel 7 identifies 4 Sea-beasts
b)Kingdoms: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome in 2 phases - pagan and papal Rome
c)Daniel 7:17 gives heaven's endtime interpretation
d)the 4-beasts are 4-KINGS that shall arise from the earth, USA
e)Presidents: Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II in 2 phases - Bush II and Obama

12)Pope Benedict XVI is the last pope identified in Bible prophecy.

13)Christ comes during the Obama Presidency
a)Daniel 7:11 4th beast (4th king from the earth) body given to the burning flame
b)Christ glory at His Advent will be like a consuming fire
c)Daniel 7:12, the other 3-beasts (kings from the earth) are allotted a season and a time
d)A season is 1/4th of a year (360/4=90-days)
e)A day is a year in Bible prophecy=90-years
f)A time in Bible prophecy is a year
g)A season and a time is 90+1=91-years
h)this season and time is a caveat explaining something before Christ comes
because it cannot happen after His Second Advent
i)On 9/11/01 President Reagan was in his 91st year
j)On 9/11/01 Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton all were alive and all had their dominion taken away
(they were not President any more)
k)On 9/11/01 Bush II was the President in office that is to be consumed by the burning flame
and President Obama is a continuation of President George (6) Walker (6) Bush II (6) [666] as papal Rome (666) was a continuation of pagan Rome

14)The mark of the beast is imminent

15)There is a world to be warned and a Church appointed to do it, but they ARE not sounding the right warning message at the right time.

16)If Laodicea does not wake-up soon, they will wake-up too late





But this is just rehashing what was published with the facts and Scriptural texts, and Spirit of Prophecy confirmation in the Book Echoes of Doomsday (Earthquake, Tsunami, Meltdown, & the Sunday Law Solution) that was published 4/27/2011

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

Based on the date given by Rosangela, which I understand is the corrected date from the October 7, 2011 date, seeing today is September 3, 2011, what is supposed to happen today and how are we to know that it did indeed happen?

His Child, why wouldn't a new President in 2013 or 2017 simply be a continuation of President Bush? And so on in 2021, 2025, etc?

His Child, what is the significance of the 2300 day prophecy and 3 Sept 2011?

His Child, how many people agree with your interpretation of prophecy? Are you the only one? I understand numbers doesn't matter, but it seems unlikely the final warning message will be rejected by all save you and a small handful.

I don't know if anything is supposed to happen Today.
I do know that it has been 2300-days from 17 May 2005 and since the 1335-day count ended on 17 May, the count for the 2300-days could begin the next day and actually they would end tomorrow.

But we are told that by their "fulfillment" Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves.

The facts that I have shared, I know to be true.

And as I watch and pray and study the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy, God fills in the facts in His own time.

A hurricane is hitting LA today and Tomorrow it will be worse.

Is it a coincidence that on the 2300th day after the 1335-days ended that America is being struck by Hurricane Lee?



This may well be a WAKE-up call to God's people to alert them to the time that they are living and to the responsibility that God has placed upon them to sound the final warning? The mark of the beast is to be upon us soon and very soon! That is the 3rd Angel's message.

Don't take it! That is a matter of life and death.

Before the fact, I thought Albert (6) Arnold (6) Gore Jr. (6) would be elected because I understood that in 2000 the next president would have to have the number 666.

George Bush was elected and I had to go back to the drawing board and study the prophecy to see if I was a little off course or way off course. As I studied, I learned that President George (6) Walker (6) Bush II (6) fulfilled the count because though he was not a JR., he was President Bush II.

Then I could not follow the prophecy from Bush II to Obama. Then Obama became President. It was back to the prophecy again.

In Daniel 7 Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and 2 Romes (papal and pagan) fulfilled the 4 kingdom model.

Likewise in the 4-kings from the earth scenario: Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and Obama. The 4 kings are 5 men as the 4 kingdoms had been 5 kingdoms (with the 5th being 2 that = 1).

As the Jews were allotted 490-years, the papacy was allotted 1260-years. And the time allotted to Protestantism ended when GW set up the abomination that makes desolate (9/20/01). So the message to come out of Babylon in Revelation 18 now applies to Apostate Protestantism.

With the 1260, 1290, & 1335-days now ended and 2300-days have come since then, I don't see any indication that the 4 President model is going to develop differently than the 4 kingdom model: 2 Romes and Bush II/Obama.

Furthermore the endtime application of Daniel 8 fits Obama.

As I read Revelation 13: The papal beast has 7 heads which are 7 popes (Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, & Benedict XVI) and 10-horns that I align with Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton. Then the American (beast from the earth) arises with two horns: Bush II & Obama.

History and prophecy are aligning to explain Daniel and Revelation. Unless something has been overlooked or is not in focus yet.

Since the earth-beast does not have a third horn, and the final fulfillment of the 1290 & 1335-days of Daniel 12 and Revelation 13 (pope John-Paul II was wounded and healed) have happened, is there any possibility of prolonging the sin problem to another President?

The 6000-years are about up. God knows when they will end and I suspect that it will be sooner than later.

Imagine a church that has 20 million members, but Revelation gives the number 144,000. And the Spirit of prophecy says "not 1 in 100" are keeping the commandment to love their neighbor as themselves. So is it possible that God won't be able to get 144K from the church and will have to make up the balance from the world?

How many people agreed with Noah when he went into the ark?



So as the 2300-days have ended people are eating and drinking and there is a Hurricane bringing a flood to LA. We will have to see how that develops.

Better to study to show yourself approved of God and be in that number than to try to explain away the sure word of God as it is fulfilling around you.

I suspect that the 2300-days actually end tomorrow since 17 May 2005 ended the 1335-days, the next day 18 May 2005 would begin the count of the 2300-days.

Did you see this map? View 2 is even more concerning.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-louisiana-storm-google-map,0,7714143.htmlstory


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&ie=UTF8&vpsrc=0&msid=203577346167583507267.0004abfcba5243aed5d73&ll=24.846565,-72.949219&spn=27.69843,55.371094&z=4&source=embed

Around 9/11/11 they will be be giving the east coast a double whammy or be joining forces as Hurricane Katia vacuums up the moisture from Lee and packs a punch.

Judgments of God in rapid succession? Prophecy fulfilled? On the tenth anniversary of 9/11/01.

Brings to mind a text

Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The reason we are discouraged from this type of prophetic interpretation is because it raises excitement then drops a person cold as yet another and then another and then another prediction fails. It destroys people's regard for prophecy.

The four beasts of Daniel 7 depict the world empires --
Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, followed by a divided Europe (ten horns) and the papacy.

I really don't think Obama is the last president of the endtime.
Yes, he is advancing the agenda, but the endtime president will be a RELIGIOUS Christian president.
Someone like Rick Perry

Remember -- the endtime crises is over worship. Worship laws will be enforced that are after the commandments of men,
NOT after the commandments of God.

Yes, time is running out.
No, we are not to set dates, nor reapply the long time lines of prophecy.

The signs of the times give unquestionable markers of unsustainability.

Violent storms & natural disasters are now commonplace. The Japan nuclear plant is poisoning the planet. THe financial turmoil along with conglomeration of world governments. Growing disparity between very rich and very poor. Imminent bankruptcy of the world's wealthiest nation while millions there are unemployed, yet it continues to wage war relentlessly. Selfishness and dishonesty, fornication and adultery are considered the norm. The people are generally self-destructive, yet don't see it.

The many crises which Satan has cultivated will demand a solution which he is preparing to implement.

_____________________________

Yes, time is running out.
I won't be surprised at all if Rick Perry gets in, he seems to be groomed to carry out the last day description of the endtimes.

BUT
No, we are not to set dates, nor reapply the long time lines of prophecy.
Henry (His Child) has set dates before that have failed.

The governor, Rick Perry, is certainly hitting the headlines, says an August 2011 report, "Last weekend, the man known as "Ricky Perry" as a boy in provincial America led a 30,000-strong prayer rally in which he painted a picture of a broken America in desperate need of healing"

Check out this link
and

Check out this link

You are very good at recalculating prophecy to accommodate changes. You sound absolutely certain you are right this time, you even lament the fact so few people are willing to agree with your current revision of prophecy, but it is very likely things will not unfold according to your view, and then what? - you will probably discover a mistake, find a rational reason for it, and then present yet another revision with the same fervor as before. Do you see the dilemma?

What do you think will happen today according to the prophecy?

You didn't answer my question - How many people agree with your current revision of prophecy?

Does the following passage describe your movement?

Nonsense.

Setting false times and dates does that very thing.

But studying the Word of God to show yourself approved of God and to understand those things that He put in His word for His people weeds out the faithful from the wantabee.

In Christ's day the same feeble argument that you suggest here kept the people from accepting Jesus as the Savior and Satan is using "God's people" to cast their shadow over truth now by the same means.


That was true in the initial application. But the book of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end. And the world empires were understood in the 2nd century AD, which was 1500-years B 4 the time of the end (1798) when Daniel was unsealed and opened. So to suggest that the understanding that was not closed-up, shut-up, and sealed B 4 the time of the end of kingdoms that do not exist in the time of the end and that it is the interpretation that is the one that applies to the time of the end is foolishness.

Daniel 7:17 clearly states KINGS from the earth. the word for KINGS is kings 2800 times in Scripture and NEVER kingdoms. So to take heaven's interpretation and explain it away is to put a private interpretation in place of Scripture. And in Daniel 7, the 4 beasts that he saw were from the SEA, but HEAVEN'S interpreter states that the interpretation that is given is applicable to the earth-beasts. Heaven is not confused. Earth and Sea are different. And since Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 use the same symbolism, lion, bear, leopard, sea, and earth: it is a gross misapplication of the prophetic symbolism to make the earth and the sea be the same thing in Daniel 7 and different things in Revelation 13.





You are welcome to keep your belief, but it is not consistent with the evidence presented. Unless you have prayerfully, earnestly studied the evidence with more than a superficial glance: it comes down to your opinion verses Present Truth. Private interpretations are quite unreliable when it comes to life altering Bible study.


Worship is the issue, but worship is based on trust, belief, and obedience. Since the word of God states the many things that I have identified; if an individual refuses to believe Present Truth, does not trust the word sufficiently to search out things that are of eternal consequences, that person will not obey the word when it cuts across their personal opinions that they have accepted as being of more value than a sure thus saith the Lord.



These are flattering words. We accept generalities, but don't bother us with the specifics.



As I read your closing statement, it shows a total lack of understanding of what I have set forth in previous posts.
When the Bible and spirit of Prophecy declare that history will be repeated, the prophecy that foretells the history is repeated. History and prophecy are not divorced one from another.

It is so true that many are called, but few are chosen. When Christ Comes the Virgins that slept too long will see that they relied on sight and did not depend on the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth.
Christian Regards

Sister U,

Perhaps you would share some evidence to validate your accusation. But please keep it in context. In the past my words have been edited so that my posts ended up saying things that I did not say and when I would post a clarification to correct the corruption, conveniently the moderator(s) would fail to allow the post. Perhaps "God's servants" have cast their shadow over Present Truth and kept it from those that they deemed to feeble minded to view the facts and study them for themselves?

But of course making honest mistakes in Bible interpretation puts me in good company:

William Miller said Christ would come in 1843.
Christ did not come in 1843.

William Miller said Christ would come in 1844.
Christ did not come in 1844.

And like Wm Miller, I was close to having all the truth before the fact and able to study to understand more as prophecy and history continued to merge because God is merciful and He has a message that He is going to get out at the APPOINTED TIME in spite of "His Servants" that would cast their long shadows over it!

Mountain Man,

I am human and I am not all-knowing.

But to use my humanity, frailness, and lack of knowledge as an excuse to remain in darkness when light is shining about you won't cut it.



You have access to what I have shared. Confirm it or disprove it. Truth will withstand scrutiny. Error will be seen for what it is. But to discount it or reject it because it does not fit into you scheme of things is to your peril.



The dilemma is as it was in the days of Noah: rightly receiving the message and getting into the ark of safety or choosing to stay outside. It is as it was in Jeremiah's day: 2 men with different messages - one was of God and the other was not. Who to believe?

From your posts and your tone, it appears that you have made up your mind and are simply trying to justify your decision.

But as for me; I will follow the word of God as I understand it and continue watching, waiting, praying, and studying and if that means growing from light unto light so be it. But I won't assume that light that God has given in the past is all sufficient and that it will not yield to more light as the Day of the Lord nears.

That is a judgmental phrasing "your current revision of prophecy."

I don't know how many. I have given numerous talks, books, e-books, 1 on 1 chats and it is a split house. But there are those who are circulating my material, and people are coming up to me out of the blue all the time praising God that they have found this light. The numbers are growing.

And since God knows who needs the message and how His word is to go forth so that it does not return to Him void, I am confident that it will do what He sends it to do for those who have an ear and hear the wee small voice.
I am frequently encountering SDA ministers, elders, and deacons that are praising God for the study.



When the Holy Spirit is poured out in the latter rain, this will be fulfilled. The fulfillment of Daniel and Revelation as seen in our day will coincide with the Loud Cry against the Mark of the Beast.

Br. H.
I have read many of your posts for many years on more than one forum.
Remember Clinton and Gore and how you had Daniel 11 outlining their lives. Clinton was supposed to "fall" and Gore was to take over. That was back about 1995.
I haven't kept track of all the details, just seen enough of the strong declarations that whatever you saw in scripture and your connecting it to the local news was "present truth" essential for salvation, only to have it revamped as the local news didn't line up with the predictions.

I have no problems with looking at local news and seeing things shaping up, with the thought that yes MAYBE this will bring the end very, very soon.

But constantly re-organizing prophecy to fit current news and each time coming with absolute positiveness that THIS TIME it is absolutely right, just isn't the way to go.
Not only does it cause people to stop taking prophecy seriously, it also destroys the SURE WORD OF PROPHECY that is the very foundation of our belief system as Seventh-day Adventists.

We should take James White more seriously.
U. Smith was following a path similar to yours during the Russian/Turkish wars in 1877, using the then current news to interpret prophecy.

James White wrote:

"Positions taken upon the Eastern question
are based upon prophecies which have not yet
their fulfillment. Here we should tread lightly,
and take positions carefully, lest we be found
removing the landmarks fully established in the
advent movement....
But what
will be the result of this positiveness in unfulfilled
prophecies should things not come out as
very confidently expected, is an anxious question.
Wars, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes
are not the surest signs of the end. These have
ever existed. We may have war, then peace,
pestilence, then health, famine, then plenty,
earthquakes, then the bowels of the earth may
be quiet ; but the message of the third angel is
given but once. The progress of this work in
fulfillment of prophecy is the highest and brightest
light now shining in the religious heavens.

Those looking at the Eastern question will probably
be disappointed ; but we may bear our
whole weight upon the last message without
fear of disappointment....." (Review and Herald November 29, 1877 p172)

James White was right -- U. Smith's predictions failed.

While your predictions are different, the principle of James White's message still applies today.

Those looking at your predictins will probably
be disappointed ; but we may bear our
whole weight upon the last message (the third angel's message) without
fear of disappointment....."

Sister U,

Communication is an art that is not mastered rapidly by all.

When studying Bible prophecy, it is possible to correctly align history and prophecy as far as they go.

The example that you cite is one of my following prophecy as far as it could be followed at the time and wondering aloud if it will turn this way or that. And giving reasonable insights as to why it could go this way or that based on the meaning of texts that had not then fulfilled.

At the time, I repeatedly asked for feedback and got very little from you as I recall. And as things unfolded, and history fulfilled prophecy, my understanding was able to mature and keep abreast with prophecy and history.

Unfortunately, your decision was not only one of withholding feedback, but also one of not keeping up with the prophecy. And then to obstruct any light that did not fit your stationary understanding.

Thus when I understood the Spirit of Prophecy statement:



I was able to wonder aloud as to what to expect (less) and watch how the prophecies were explaining themselves (more).

But since you did not understand what I said in the past and when you at times "explained my positions" to others on your forum, you gave it your twist and would not allow me to correct your erroneous take on my views. That was unfortunate because by doing so you placed your shadow between light from heaven and individuals that were seeking for light.

And now that I am more in tune with James White's counsel that you kindly shared, you are more opposed to considering how prophecy has been fulfilled in current events. That is probably because you have made up your mind and no matter what the facts are, you will hold to your opinion. You once wrote me, "No American Presidents are identified in Daniel 7." So now that prophecy is verifiable and the American Presidents are identifiable and confirmed, you can't see how "Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves by their fulfillment in these last days."

I truly regret that you did not understand what I was writing at the time and that you did not see the merit of giving feedback that could have blessed my searching for truth. I had always thought that you were intelligent and had insights that were a blessing. But when you took the position that things were cut and dry that were not so cut and dry, it came across as your way or the highway. That was not very helpful.

Christian Regards

You are constantly revising your views to justify failed predictions and to accommodate current events. You firmly believe each revision is "present truth" and lament those who do not wholeheartedly embrace it. Each time your predictions fail you figure out a way to explain it rationally and then come up with "new light" and describe the process as advancing from "light to light". It doesn't ring right, brother. I am completely comfortable with the way Ellen White left it in the book The Great Controversy. If we as individuals and a church continue to proclaim the truth about Jesus, victorious living, and the Sabbath - we are doing the will of God.

Yesterday, the Lord blessed my study of "No prophetic time after 1844" related to Daniel 12's 1335-days.

Some SDA's teach that Sister White states that there is no prophetic time past 1844.

But EGW does not contradict herself.



Since Ellen White had no visions until after 1844, all of her Heaven inspired views on prophetic time were given after 1844.



In 1888, Ellen White stated that the book of Daniel was unsealed since 1798 and knowledge of the prophecies has increased.



In this 1903 statement, Ellen White began at 1843-44 and states "A great work will be done" thus putting that work in the future "will be done" after 1844. She continues "A message will soon be given by God's appointment" further placing that message in the future from the time of her statement in 1903. This message is to swell into the LOUD CRY: Then Daniel will stand in his lot, to give his testimony. Also note that this is "the closing work." The closing work does not link to the beginning of the opening of the book of Daniel but to the ending or the closing of the work of Daniel.

Thus after making the statement in 1888 that Daniel was standing in his lot in 1798, Ellen White clearly states that Daniel will stand in his lot after 1903. But if Daniel was standing in his lot in 1798 how can she say that he will stand in his lot in the future after 1903?

The statement about 1798 gives some insight: "knowledge of the prophecies has increased." As knowledge of Daniel's prophecy has increased since 1798, it is to increase further after 1903.

This is evident from Revelation 10.



The little book that was opened was the sealed book of Daniel that had been opened around 1798. Thus when John was commanded to eat the little book of Daniel, he was prophesying about the 1843-44 period when preaching that the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesy was a sweet message that turned sour when Jesus did not come as anticipated. Then comes the command "Thou must prophesy again."



Thus when the command was given, "Thou must prophesy again" it is true that both Daniel and Revelation (as one book) are being commanded by order of Heaven to "prophesy again." But in another sense, Daniel, which is the prophecy "must prophesy again." So after the 1844 disappointment, the book of Daniel is to repeat its prophecy when it is to "prophesy again."



Thus Daniel continues standing in his lot in 1893 that he began to do in 1798. But in 1893 Daniel is standing in his lot with instructions from Heaven that had not been given to him in 1798; (Daniel) You must prophesy again. Thus in 1893 Daniel stands in his lot bearing his testimony (A message will soon be given by God's appointment the closing work that will swell into a loud cry).

And the timing of Daniel's standing in His lot to give this closing message is linked to Michael standing for His people. Thus Ellen White is linking heaven's command for Daniel to prophesy again to Daniel's giving a special message at God's appointed time just before Christ stands for His people at His Second Advent. Daniel's message is at God's appointed time not at a vague unspecified time. And the message that EGW links to Daniel standing with the closing message is linked to the 1335-days of Daniel 12.

The 1335-days in Daniel 12 is an important message that needs to be understood.



Thus Ellen White gives sufficient counsel that the 1335-days of Daniel will be in the last days after 1903 and that they will be understood by the wise. But her teaching is made void by a teaching that there is no prophetic time after 1844 to intervene to Christ's Second Advent that is after 1903. This is confusion to make EGW contradict herself and it is not of God. It is a satanic shadow cast over truth so that God's people will be kept in darkness until it is too late for the knowledge that they need to understand will be kept from them until it is to late to do them any good.

????
Yet all her APPLICATIONS of those time lines showed they had ended in 1844 and were NOT to be reapplied.


Here's the full quote

The great truth that Daniel testifies to is the SANCTUARY message. It's all through his book, yet few have grasped it's meaning and importance. The world mocks it, and even Adventists try to sweep it under the rug.

That is the message we should be focusing upon -- the three angels.
Not guessing who the last president will be, and reapplying the prophetic timelines that have already run their course.

All those prophetic time lines pointed to one thing -- the beginning of the "hour of judgment". That's why they don't go beyond 1844.
The beginning of this judgment means Christ is about to come -- when He stands up to come deliver His people probation ends .

As you have clearly shown from the EGW quote in its entirety, she was accused of "time setting" for a date for Christ to return. The context is FOR SETTING NEW DATES FOR CHRIST'S ADVENT not prophetic time periods that align with the prophecies.

Read it again. The focus is on setting new times for Christ to come, but there is nothing there commanding us not to understand the times that have been fulfilled.

I clearly teach that by their fulfillment the times in Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves, but you are convinced that my work is "setting times."

God does not reveal things to us to keep them secret from us.

After the command is given in Revelation 10 "Thou must prophesy again" Revelation 12, 13, and 17 and other chapters cite prophetic time.

Thus to misread the Spirit of prophecy in such a way as to void the word of God is not rightly dividing the word.

Such a reading takes that which is revealed and makes it as though it has not been revealed. It voids the word of God and blocks it from accomplishing that to which the Lord sends it to do.

But I do understand how hard it is to rightly divide the word of God and that Sister White's statements sometimes come across as ambiguous. If that were never the case, men and women could use their finite wisdom to explain every thing without the discernment of the Holy Spirit.

But the Spirit that inspired the prophecies also inspires the correct interpretations.

You must prophecy again.

What does that phrase mean? When was it applied?
Let's see what inspiration has to say about it.

Actually Rev. 10 and the first verses of Rev. 11 give the setting for the three angels' messages that are later defined.

Revelation 10.3-4
And [he]cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

To which EGW comments:

"The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angel's messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested." {7BC 971)

In the next verses John is given an unsealed book and told to eat it. It's sweet to the taste but bitter in the stomache. Then he is told to you must PROPHECY AGAIN.

The little book was the book of Daniel. With great joy people from 1840-1844 were devouring its prophecies. The timelines were understood. And other than a slight adjustment due to there being no year "0" their calculations were correct.
Anyone reading the writings of the early pioneers realizes they were fully convinced the 1260, 1335 1290, 2300 years were all completed. All leading up to 1844.

But they thought the sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of those timelines was the earth. They expected Christ to come. Thus the book turned bitter in their stomachs when the great disappointment occured.

It was at this POINT that were to prophecy again.

The first and second angel's messages were given at the right time-- but they were to prophecy AGAIN. The truth of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary was discovered as the seventh trumpet began to sound and the third angels' message was added to the first two messages.

The writer of Revelation tells us exactly what was to be the message of the disappointed believers in prophecy.

A reed like a rod was given me, and the angel said, Rise, and measure the temple of the God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not" (11:1-2)
They were commanded to "measure the temple".
What was to be measured?

The same three things that were to be cleansed in the day of atonement!

The altar,(Lev. 16:18)
the sanctuary (Lev. 16:16)
and the worshipers! (16:17)

As these disappointed ones examined and evaluated "what sanctuary" was to be "cleansed" at the end of the 2300 day/years, they found out that during the seventh trumpet, the temple IN HEAVEN was opened and the ark of the testament was seen in heaven. (Rev. 11:19) (obviously this part of the temple was opened near the end of earth's history-- at the seventh trumpet!)



There is no ambiguity there.
The 2300 day/year prophecy ended in 1844.

So how are those dates relevent to us?

1. 1798 marks an end to 1260 years of papal oppression.
Forgetting that, causes us to take our freedoms for granted, and allows for the return of a religious state directed by the papacy. And people are forgetting that. And soon our freedoms will end.

2. 1844 marks the end of the 2300 years and the beginning of the pre-advent judgment hour. Christ is our judge and advocate, He is our ONLY mediator, Lord and Savior. He stands by the ark of the covenant in which reside the ten commandments. He will cleanse and make us pure and white if we are willing and obedient.
In the last crises the issue will be over God's commandments or man's commandments -- and if we don't see Christ by the ark in the heavenly sanctuary Who alone we must answer to, and seek after, we will be mislead by all the arguments that another law and another religious authority is now important.

While I may agree with you that it doesn't name individual presidents, I'm don't see how you made the next jump. Specifically, "All those prophetic time lines pointed to one thing -- the beginning of the "hour of judgment". That's why they don't go beyond 1844." How do you conclude that?
How do you say, the first mention of 1290 and 1335 days, has already run its course?

6 ton school bus sized satellite is going to plung into the earth within the next several days

compared it to Revelation 8

Just before the seven plagues fall Revelation gives a caveat to explain what lead up to them

In the context of Daniel and Revelation explaining themselves by their fulfillment and the command in revelation 10 "thou must prophesy again."

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Note the punctuation change "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth and the third part; of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

The earth in Bible prophecy is America. It was formed by three parts. Eastern states, Louisiana Territory, and absorption of Texas that had been an independent nation.

Texas (1/3 of the components forming the earth/America) is just getting a wildfire sparked by lightning (fire cast upon the earth) under control. That fire has especially burned oily trees like cedar that increased the intensity of the blaze and vast grass lands.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

The word mountain is from a root that means to rise and to fall. America launched (like a mountain rising) a satellite into orbit that weigh about 6 tons and is the size of a school bus. It is due to fall (like a mountain going down) this week and hit the earth.

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This brings back to mind the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico last year with crude oil flowing uncontrolled to the surface and looking like blood on the tide. I wonder where that satellite is going to hit and what damage it is going to do.

We will soon see.

Blessings

The God that can name King Cyrus by name 100+ before he ruled knows the name of the last pope and the last President. Thus it begs to be asked if He revealed this information in His word?

If He did (and He did) then why does not everyone get it?

Because His word is not going to be understood by everyone.

It can be bantered back and forth who has understanding? But as long as we differ on our understanding, it is human nature to assume that "our position" is the correct one.

But Jesus rebuked Laodicea for their lack of understanding. When the counsel to the churches is studied in Revelation, some churches are rebuked, but individuals within the churches are commended for holding fast to the truth. But that is not the counsel to Laodicea:


14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Laodicea is rebuked for having so much and being so out of step with Christ. And the promise to Laodicea is only to him that overcomes the Church's handicap.

No American Presidents in Bible prophecy?

For more thorough study

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/1260_1290_1335.html

Ok,

Specifically, "All those prophetic time lines pointed to one thing -- the beginning of the "hour of judgment". That's why they don't go beyond 1844."

How do you conclude that?
How do you say, the first mention of 1290 and 1335 days, has already run its course?

Are you saying that the prophecies presenting a succession of events means that at the time of the "judgment", all prophecies, all events, have already "succeeded"?
If so, I absolutely don't believe that to be true. Throughout Daniel, that is demonstrated otherwise.

Look after the part you underlined. "But". What do you think that means?


You may want to get a more complete definition of Preterists, Futurists, and Historicists. And compare with what the Bible and Ellen White says about "traditions of men".

No, of course ALL THE PROPHECIES are not ended in 1844.
But the TIMELINES are.

The timelines -
1260 (538-1798) of papal oppression.
1290 (508 - 1798) when the papacy gained the support of the armies of the Franks to start implimenting its oppression, and covering the 1260 years as well.
1335 (508 -1843) takes us to the proclamation of three three angel's messages.

Daniel's prophecies, while beginning with four kingdoms, have their main focus on the papal horn or papal period of oppression, and that God's judgment will sit and that the horns blaspheme's claim to "keys" have no bearing on God's people, for the heavenly judgment sits and Christ and His followers receive the kingdom, while the beast with it's horn is destroyed.

Of course there is much revealed, especially in Revelation, that show the revival of the papal system of oppression in the last days (after the timelines have taken us to "the time of the end") with the mark of the beast, and the legislation of worship.

From what I've observed this MAIN THRUST in the prophecies is lost in all the new attempts to re-interpret them.


PS. That link only briefly mentioned preterest, historicist, and futurist in passing, the MAIN points were on the 1260, 1290, 1335 day prophecies. That's the problem in posting links -- people seem to miss why they were posted by other information.

Are you saying the sticking to the historicist method of interpreting prophecy is a "tradition of men"?

That method of interpreting prophecy is the foundation of the reformation and break from papal oppression.

In disregarding it not only do we break from the reformation understanding, we also break from the whole "Great Controversy" picture of the endtime events.

In disregarding the historicist understanding Protestantism as a whole has lost it's protest and is stretching out their hands to honor the papacy as the leading MORAL AUTHORITY in the world.

Is the time period recorded in Daniel 12 literal or prophet?

Historically, Adventists believed that these time periods are prophetic time, each day standing for a literal year. Both the 1290 and 1335 day/years began in A.D. 508 when Clovis, King of the Franks, converted to Catholicism and the Franks became the arm of strength or army often used by the Papacy to enforce its religious and policatical agendas. This agrees with Daniel's words saying "an army was given him". (8:12, 11:31)
The 1290 year period ended in A.D. 1798 when the same power (the Franks) now under Napolean, broke the Papacy's political power. The 1335 days ending 1843/1844.

In more recent years, several independant people have been challenging that understanding, suggesting these time lines are not prophetic, that is, the day/year principle is not to be applied to them, but rather literal outlining some future event.

A quote by Ellen White has been found where she mentions the 1335 days. This quote emphatically states there is error in either putting the 1335 days in the future or in the past. The only problem is that the syntax of the sentence is unclear as to which concept is the error.




What did they tell him? To correct his error did they tell him the 1335 days were ended, or are they saying that he was in error for teaching the 1335 days were ended?

Notice it wasn't Ellen White alone trying to reason with this man. The "we" is in contrast to the later statement that "I" said a few words. The "I" refers to Ellen White, so who is this "we" that countered Hewitts error?

The one who is most likely speaking is James White, telling Hewitt of his errors. Now we must ask, Why would James White, with the approval of his wife, reprove Bro. Hewitt of believing something he himself believed and taught? That is, if Hewitt's error was believing the 1335 days were past? James White and most of the other pioneers would have had to join Hewitt in confession and repentance if that were the case. We know from his writings that James White (as well as the other pioneers) believed and taught that the 1335 years were ended in 1843/1844.

We also know from this paragraph written by EGW that Hewitt's idea was ERROR!

Ellen White, herself, wrote several times that "there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time".{1SM 188.1}

.

REJECTING THE DAY/YEAR PRINCIPLE

Most of the independant preachers who have adopted this future, non-prophetic literal time interpretation will try to convince others that their position does not hurt the day/year principle. Yet, while they maintain that the 2300 days of Daniel 8 are prophetic time leading to 1844, by turning around and saying the 1260, 1290 and 3350 days are not prophetic time, they destroy the rules that enable the day/year principle.

Daniel 12:6 and Daniel 12:9 are quoted in which Daniel speaks about "the end".

"How long shall it be until the end" 12:6
"the words are sealed unto the time of the end" 12:9
See- they say, Daniel is asking about the END not things that happen in 1844.
Thus they don't acknowledge that we are IN THE TIME OF THE END since 1844.

Daniel 8 uses the same terminology!
"The vision is for the time of the end." Dan.8:17
So, that same argument would destroy the 2300 day/years. When we destroy one and say it is not prophetic time pointing to the judgment, we destroy the other as well.

And in destroying them we destroy the whole Adventist interpretation of prophecy.
And EGW must then be considered false in her endtime outline, influenced by her own time, but out of touch with what constitutes the events of the endtimes. (As many now seem to want to look at her -- which leaves them open to the delusions about to come upon the world)





When we lose sight of that -- we lose sight of the real issues that will present themselves at the end and we will be swept into the delusion of what appears to be truth that the world will see as the solution to its problems.

In context it means that until those timelines ended people didn't understand about the "judgment hour" that was to take place during the "time of the end" just prior to Christ's coming. Notice the NEWLY underlined and colored sentence in the quote.
Once the judgment hour began, time could have ended rapidly -- we have no more reason to say "oh it will be another three years, or five years or..."

I'd disagree with that. However, maybe you should define "timeline". I have a future timeline in mind I think you'd agree with.

No, I'm saying that saying something is good because it's traditional is a "tradition of men".

You may want to get a more complete definition of Preterists, Futurists, and Historicists.


Literal -vs- prophetic. Is that the correct juxtaposition? Cannot literal time be prophetic time?
Consider Daniel 4.

Look at the top of the page -- the long timelines are there defined:
The timelines -
1260 (538-1798) of papal oppression.
1290 (508 - 1798) when the papacy gained the support of the armies of the Franks to start implimenting its oppression, and covering the 1260 years as well.
1335 (508 -1843) takes us to the proclamation of three three angel's messages.
And of course:
2300 - 457 BC to 1844 AD.




The historiciest interpretion sees prophecy covering time from the prophet's day right through to the final restoration.

Admittedly I'm not about to try and fully explain futurism or preterism. Futurism unfortunetely reigns preeminent in the western Christian world today. They take the 70 week prophecy and obviously some of it is in the past concerning Israel, but they stop the clock and the final week is pushed into the future. Most will apply the day for a year to Daniel nine, but then refuse to apply it to the other long range timelines in the same book --at least not in any way that it would relate to the history of the Christian church.
The seventy weeks are the key showing that Daniel's prophetic times (days) are to be seen as years.

Both preterist and futurist omit the "church age". There is a vaccum from about 70 A.D. till about 1967 A.D.
This leads to failure or denial to recognize the horn/beast etc. as the papal power WITHIN the Christian world, as the founder, authority and future reinstator, along with his associate, the "false prophet" of the whole false worship system in Revelation.
Not all of course have fully left the protestant stand, but even groups who were once very opposed to Papal authority are now shifting their view of the papacy.



Prophetic (symbolic) time is a LITERAL year for each prophecied day.

Daniel four is a prediction concerning a man and what would happen in his life, it is not a prophecy outlining the events of earth's then future history.
(Though all the stories in Daniel also have powerful lessons preparing our thoughts to comprehend the visions)


We are living in the "time of the end"
the long timelines are finished, the endtime crises is only held back by the four angels of Rev. seven, waiting till all God's people are sealed.

Dedication,

The longest timeline in the Bible is not yet finished. It reaches all the way from the Creation to the Second Advent and beyond to the Millennium. Mrs. White herself gave the 6000-year figure in numerous places, but the figure is biblical. There are two distinct prophecies in the Bible, which I have found, that give the full 7000-year figure.

Furthermore, Mrs. White tells us the precise event which will close the Millennium. I should think, then, that the Millennium has both a precise starting point and finish point. I do not know if this is the timeline to which kland may have been referring, but I do know that said timeline is still future.

The historicist view does not preclude yet-unfulfilled prophecies. It simply seeks to join such prophetic times with actual events on earth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Right you are Green.

Prophesy again.

Neither the six thousand years nor the millenium are part of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation predicting the length of time when evil reigns upon the earth.

The six thousand years come from Jubilee cycles of the Old testament and have been the speculative field for a number of time settings that have failed. The whole concept is based on the seven day week (six days plus the seventh which is the day of rest) this was expanded into the six year plus the seventh year as the year of rest for the land, and then further to Jubilee year.

Personally I think the world is already more than six thousand years old (the creation date keeps getting set later as predictions of the end keep failing). We are in the "waiting" time, the time of the end.

The Millennium occurs after the earth has completed it's roughly six thousand years so it's not part of the timelines pointing to "endtime".

The "prophecy again" came in 1844 when the disappointed ones were commissioned to restudy the prophecies and find the true meaning of the "cleansing of the sanctuary", "time of the end" the "hour of His judgement" which occurs before the second coming.

Yes, God knows the precise time when Christ will come, but He has NOT given that information to humanity.

I never said it did!!!
The historicist view covers time from the prophets day till the restoration. But the time lines (2300, 1260,1290, 1335)are ended.

Dedication, the seven-thousand year prophecy is found in Daniel, and the millennium is certainly found in Revelation. I'm not sure how you would find otherwise.


The timelines I'm looking at have nothing to do with jubilee cycles. I don't get into those.

What matters is not what anyone thinks but what is on God's timeline. Things are not always as they appear. Bishop Ussher's chronology may not be accurate, and it is my finding that we are still shy of 6000 years from the detailed study I have done.

How do you interpret Amos 3:7? What of Mrs. White's declaration that the day and hour will be announced? What of Paul's statements in the NT?

WE are not to be among those who walk in darkness concerning these times we are living in.

As for the millennium not being an "endtime prophecy," does that mean that "prophetic time" can still apply to it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

1. The seven thousand year prophecy is not in Daniel. There is no verse saying six thousand years shall the earth writhe in evil then shall Christ come and the seventh thousand year period will be spent in heaven (or in His kingdom).

2. The millennium is not predicting the length of time when evil reigns upon earth. It is the "Sabbath rest" for the earth.




But that's where the six thousand years plus one thousand years of Sabbath rest for the earth come from! It's based on the concept of the week -- six days followed by the Sabbath.
Even in the fall of Jerusalem it is mentioned that Israel had not given the land it's Sabbath rest, so they were in captivity for 70 years so the land could enjoy the accumulated "sabbath rest".

Lev. 25:3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;
25:4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

Lev. 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

2 Cor. 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

For 6000 years mankind has been destroying the earth. The earth will have it's "Sabbath rest" for 1000 years.



Of course -- and that includes EVERYONE not just me.


How does any of that affect the solid foundation of the completed timelines that clearly reveal the time in history in which we are living?
The signs are everywhere that we are at the end.

The announcement of the day and hour of Christ's coming happens during the SEVENTH PLAGUE. We aren't there yet.

And hopefully we are not walking in darkness concerning the times we are living in!

Matt. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.





The millennium is not predicting the length of time when evil reigns upon earth. It's not part of the TIMELINES in that sense. It's the "sabbath rest" after Christ has come in the clouds of glory.
No -- it is not reckoned in prophetic time.

Dedication,

What day and hour is spoken of in Matthew 24:36? If you study carefully, you will soon see there is no reference whatsoever to the second advent there, nor is it speaking of that. However, we Adventists have been awesome cliff jumpers (jumping to conclusions) with verses like this. It's a deep and somewhat involved study, actually, which I have not yet posted to this forum. However, I would invite you to prove the verse for yourself. See if it relates to the second coming or not.

Regarding the 7000 year prophecy in Daniel, it is to be found in chapter four. Trust me. It is there.

There are two prophetic time formulas in the Bible. Most Adventists are only aware of one. However, most Adventists also cannot tell the meaning of the prophecy in which it is given. We are good at ripping the day-for-year formula out of Ezekiel 4:6 and applying it to every other prophecy in the book but. Why are not our leaders studying with due diligence to understand the prophecy in which the formula is set?

It is interesting to note that both of the time formulas in the Bible have exactly two verses to support them.

Day-for-year: Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6
Day-for-millennium: Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

It is the latter which applies to Daniel 4. Feel free to study it yourself. The following are the notable features you will wish to examine.

1) Nebuchadnezzar's hair grows like eagle's feathers.
2) Nebuchadnezzar's nails grow like birds' claws.

What do birds represent in the Bible or in prophecy? (Consider the parable of the sower, what David and Goliath declare to each other, Deuteronomy 28:26 and Revelation 18:2.)

3) Nebuchadnezzar eats grass.

When is the last time you saw an eagle eating grass? And what does grass represent? (Hint: Isaiah 40:7.)

For that matter, why in the world does not his hair grow like a horse's mane and his nails like hooves? Wouldn't that be much more fitting for a pasture animal? The fact that he becomes like an eagle is notable--and should make bells go off in our minds that this is a type...and something worthy of study.

4) Nebuchadnezzar is out there for "seven times."

Why "times?" Why not just say "days?" or "years?" Could it be that this is ambiguous for a reason? such as for a dual application?

I believe so. And it is no small coincidence that this event happens to Nebuchadnezzar just after his heart is lifted up in pride.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

This IS TALKING ABOUT THE SECOND COMING:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.









Matthew 24 is not talking in symbols it's straight forward talk. The words are plain enough.

We have been warned NOT to set dates for the second coming, or for the close of probation for that matter. We can know the time is NEAR even at the door, but the day and hour of Christ's coming, humans won't know until it's announced by God's voice during the seventh plague -- and then only the faithful will understand it, the rest think it's thunder.



Chapter four is the experience of king Nebuchadnezzar.

"Nebuchadnezzar's nails grow like birds' claws"
They don't grow like hoofs because a human's fingernails if left uncut and unbroken look like claws not like hooves. Have you ever seen someone who's managed to grow their fingernails two or more inches long? They look like curved claws !!!

Besides, the poor man was insane for seven years.
That doesn't fit the six years of earthly "madness" and the seventh in heaven.

Or maybe -- you seem to be saying Nebuchadnezzar represents satan, who is given 7000 years of life after being cast out of heaven.

But after seven years reason returned to Nebuchadnezzar and he is a changed man who acknowledges and worships God. He reigns for several years after that during which time he praises and extols and honours the King of heaven.


But now it seems you are suggesting that this prophecy means
each year stands for a thousand years.
A "time" equals one year. Seven "times" equals seven years.
So to get 7000 years, you are suggesting 1 year = 1000 years.

But Peter and the Psalmist say a thousand years are like a day to God, not a year. So you would be establishing a whole third formula.







The formula is set in Daniel nine.
seventy weeks (seventy weeks have 490 days) which are given to the Jews.
You calculate time from the command to rebuild the city state of Jersualem to the coming of Christ and the ONLY formula that fits is A DAY EQUALS A YEAR formula.

That is the formula that fits the other prophecies as well.
Daniel eight -- how long the vision?
Starting with Media Persia -- through Greece -- to the time of the end, 2300 days got to equal 2300 years.

It can't be a day = a thousand years.

Dedication,

I respect your view. I understand that it is a long-held view by Adventists, and that traditional views die hard. But it is not faithful to the text.

The Adventist Bible Commentary is also incorrect in expounding on these verses. If you use the ABC, you will find it largely agrees with your view.

But the Commentary's view is not held without difficulty. You see, apparently, the folk writing it held more to tradition (Adventist) than to text of the Word itself. Had they researched the Greek meanings of words used in that passage, they would have found a startling conundrum...or at least, an opposing interpretation.

If you are not interested in changing your view, I will understand and will write no further here about it.



I see. No symbols in verse 28? No symbols in verses 37-44? Really? The version in Luke 17, by the way, puts the equivalent of verse 28 right with the so-called "rapture" texts--as the answer to the disciples' question about where the people are taken.


Agreed. Except that I don't know how you set the date for the announcement to be during the seventh plague. But the rest of this I agree with.


Yes. That is what is meant. Daniel 4 has some similarities to chapters like Ezekiel 28.


Yes. Thankfully for Nebuchadnezzar, he is not Satan himself, only typifying Satan for a time. Yet even Satan, we are told, will acknowledge God's supremacy and worship Him after the final millennium.


How did you get seven years from seven times? Is it not by the day=year principle? If we start with a day, it can represent either a year or a millennium.

The word "times" in the Chaldean there meant the same as our English word does. In just the chapter prior, the Hebrew worthies were told, using the same Chaldean word, that at the "time" the sackbut, harp, etc. were played, they were to bow down to the image. I can hardly image the king commanding every one to stand there waiting for the right "year" in which to act. Furthermore, the king spoke to the wise men in chapter 2 using this same word for "time" and complaining that they were just stalling for time in telling him his dream. I don't think the king had any intention whatsoever of waiting for a period of years for their answer.



No, the Bible is establishing that formula, Dedication, not me. I'm not establishing any formulas at all. It is an intriguing point that only 2 Peter 3:8, of all the four time-formula texts, gives its formula in a "definition statement." You see, I learned in Geometry class that if A=B & B=A you have a definition statement. When it can go both ways, you have a complete equality. For example, a duck = a bird, but it cannot go the other way around for not all birds are ducks.

The Bible never makes one year equal one day. So it did not need to give us the day-year formula as a definition statement which can go both ways. However, the Bible does use the day-millennium formula in both directions.

Remember how long Adam lived? He lived 930 years. Yet that entire 930 was not as much as 1000, the equivalent of a single day. In light of the millennium=day formula, we soon understand the truth of the words "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


What formula is set in Daniel 9? Aren't you using the formula that is set in Ezekiel 4?

I don't think there is any day=year formula given in Daniel.

Regarding the Ezekiel formula, what does that prophecy mean? Can you tell me where the 390 days/years or the 40 days/years fit in? What do they mean?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It sounds like you are saying several things.

• That prophetic time is symbolic time.
• That since the prophecy of Daniel 4 is concerning an individual, it is not prophetic.
• That relating future events is not prophetic.
• That time prophecies only cover times when evil reigns upon earth.
• That we can only conclude that there is no more time prophecies since evil no longer reigns upon the earth.

And if prophecy concerning an individual only and can only mean literal time, then I can see why you object to His Child saying Daniel 12 refers to a specific president.

But I think you need to prophecy again concerning prophetic versus symbolic definitions. Without proper definitions it's hard to communicate.

What is prophetic.
What is symbolic.
What is literal.
How do they relate to each other.

I'm not sure I follow. While I agree the same word is used elsewhere, how do you get day=year out of it? Then, what about time=day=year=year-of-days=year-of-years? I think that would compound and confuse the issue.

You're right, kland. That would seem confusing.

Actually, the way I go is this:

Start with the word "time" in the Chaldean, and look for its corresponding Hebrew word. The Chaldean has but few references in the Bible to go on, and is likely less-well understood. According to BlueLetterBible.org, the Hebrew equivalent is the word "iddah", which means "menstruation." It gives the idea of something cyclic or regular--a recurring event. Following up another step in the ladder, we arrive at the Hebrew word "uwd" which means "to return, repeat, go about, do again."

To me, this helps me understand the Chaldean word for "time" better. It is a cyclic time. Something that repeats. In studying the Hebrew word "yowm", the definition given here shows it is the main Hebrew word for time and means "day, time, year." So it is quite possible that the same word indicates both "day" and "year." Both of these words indicate a cyclic relationship with the sun. They are both recurring solar times, based on our perspective. This is, perhaps, one reason the "day" can so easily be made to represent a "year."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ummm.... Maybe it would be better to say:
This is, perhaps, one reason the Chaldean word can represent/mean both day or year.

Because I thought the reason we use day to represent a year is Eze and Numbers.

Indeed -- you come to strange conclusions to what I wrote, even after I wrote further posts to explain it.


Don't you believe in the day/year principle?

Don't you believe the 1260 years, 2300 years etc. held a significant place in history and the development of both the false religious movement and God's work in dealing with sin and salvation?

I am thoroughly convinced that we will miss the true meaning of the last day crises if we throw out the foundation that was solidly built. The historicist framework on which the church bases its understanding of these things is the right framework, and the message that has resulted from such study is the right message. We have spent years studying it, it's not just something we heard.


-----------------
OK -- to try and explain ---


[*]That prophetic time is symbolic time.

The timelines (1260, 1290, 1335, 2300) contained in the visions are based on the day for a year principle, as is clearly established from Daniel nine. I'm not getting into a semantics debate.
Most prophecies in scripture dealing with more local or immediate events are not stated in symbolic time --
Jeremiah predicts 70 years of exile (of course that is 70 years, not 70X360 years.

Daniel and Revelation are not dealing with local time, they are dealing with time that spans great era's in of earth's history in the Great Conflict between sin and salvation.

[*]That since the prophecy of Daniel 4 is concerning an individual, it is not prophetic.

Of course it is prophetic, its prophecying an event that would happen in the immediate future, but it's not in the same category as the visions outlining earth's history.

[*]That relating future events is not prophetic.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion?
The word "prophetic" has wide meaning --
It's more than relating to future events, it's concerning the message of the prophet.

Getting into semantics over the use of the word "prophetic time" vs "literal time" just goes around in circles as your comments only too well illustrate. It becomes a game of linguistics instead looking at the principles of interpretation.


[*]That time prophecies only cover times when evil reigns upon earth.

Time prophecies and "timelines" aren't necessarily the same thing.
There are a host of prophecies in scripture, dealing with time, that aren't timelines.

The timelines in Daniel and Revelation span the great time periods in earth's history leading up to the "time of the end".

Then the angel in Revelation 10 declares "time shall be no longer" announcing that the longer periods of time have come to an end. This isn't announcing that time stops for the very next verse speaks of the "days of the seventh angel" and that "the mystery of God" is yet to be finished. And we know the command to "prophecy again" comes AFTER the announcement.

The "prophecy again" is NOT about timelines for they are declared finished! What timelines are finished -- obviously those in Daniel and Revelation reaching to that point.


[*]That we can only conclude that there is no more time prophecies since evil no longer reigns upon the earth.

The timelines we are speaking about are all about how long evil will last before Christ steps in -- they spanned times prior to the preadvent judgement.
Daniel seven gives the HIGH POINT, when the beasts have played their "king of mountain" role, and the little horn has made its presence, then -- after the 1260 years, at the end of the 2300 years, Christ goes before the Father to claim the kingdom!
Daniel says the Kingdoms and dominions are given him, as He stands as the SON OF MAN representing the human race.
Rev. 3:4 and 5, says He presents the names of those overcomers clothed in white, before the Father and the angels.

And Daniel seven shows that these will inherit the earth with Christ, and the beast will be destroyed.

So -- yes, the timelines point to the judgment because it is then that Christ receives the kingdom and the citizen list is finalized. THEN He will come and claim it.

That is the MOST important thing to look to --
No matter how wild and terrible the beast and his cohorts rage and try to take absolute control of the earth in the time of the end, we need to keep focused on WHO will inherit it.

Actually this is illustrated by Jewish wedding.
A couple is betrothed -- promised to each other.
The groom goes away to prepare a home for his bride.
This usually takes a year or so. The father, not the groom has the final say when everything is ready. After the Father gives his approval, the groom prepares himself, gathers his friends and goes to get his bride. The bride does not know when the groom will come. Yes, as the allotted time passes and signs show things are getting ready she can know it will be SOON. But she must be ready at all time for she doesn't KNOW when her groom will come. As the groom and his party approach her house, he blows on a sofar to announce his arrival, then he claims his bride.

I'm sorry for confusing you. I was transitioning from the Chaldean word to related words, the latter one of "yowm" being a Hebrew word. In the prophetic time formula of Ezekiel 4:6, the word "day" is from the Hebrew "yowm" which can mean either "day" or "year." I didn't fully clarify that, and I apologize.

EDIT: For clarification, BOTH of the day-year formulas (Numbers 14:34 & Ezekiel 4:6) use the Hebrew "yowm" for the "day" side of the formula.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Dedication,

I am in agreement with you that the 1260, 2300, etc. timelines use the prophetic day-year formula. I simply think that it is somewhat irresponsible scholarship on our part to apply that formula to every other prophecy except for the one in which it is initially given. I think we as Adventists should be greatly desirous of building a solid case, being able to explain the prophetic times from the first building blocks onward.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

I didn't come to my understanding from the Adventist Bible Commentary, but from reading the text itself.

If you are referring to Jerusalems destruction in 70 AD, yes, the disciples asked concerning that destruction and the end of the world, and Jesus combined the two in his answer.

In that sense the destruction of Jerusalem was a foreshadowing of the endtime destruction of the world.

But verses 30 and 31 are clearly speaking of Christ coming in power and glory, the trumpet sounding, the angels gathering the elect.
It fits right in with 1 Thess. 4

How could this NOT be?










How is verse 28 "symbolic"? It sounds quite plain to me? -- I've used Luke 17 many times to show the fallacy of the rapture doctrine.
Matt. 24, Luke 17 and Rev. 19 show the wicked are destroyed, at Christ's second coming.

SYMBOLIC means the language used isn't literal but stands for something else.
Rev. 17 --A woman sitting on a seven headed beast is SYMBOLIC.
It's not about a literal woman sitting on a literal seven headed animal.

Matt. 24:28 isn't symbolic, it's talking about people being dead carcases, food for the scavengers.
Sadly that will be literal.


I suppose people could get into seeing the two men or two women as symbolic, but they can just as easily be seen as simply people all over the world who have worked together, possibly even related to each other, one dies in the destruction the other meets Jesus in the air.

The emphasis being -- be ready to meet Jesus, we don't want to be dead carcases that won't even be buried, while eternity is given to those who accepted the Savior and lived for Him in this life and will then live with Him throughout all eternity.

That's encouraging to know!

However, I'm having a very hard time seeing how Daniel 4 initially gives the day for a year formula.





A word can have multiple meanings depending on how it is used. The term "time" when used in prophetic talk meant a year.


The 1260 days are mention in Dan. 7:25, 12:7 and Rev. 12:6 as

a time
times
half a time.

That is translated as 1 year, 2 years and half a year which equals three and half years.
From that we have 360 days plus 720 days, plus 180 days = 1260 days.

Confirmation comes when scripture itself says it's 1260 days.

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Rev. 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Thus far we haven't yet applied the day for a year principle. The next step is to apply it and instead of 1260 days we say 1260 years.


Your explanation would mean the day/year principle would have to be applied TWICE to the "time,times, half a time" to reach 1260 years.








Can I respectfully remind you that this is your understanding of scripture, not necessarily the scripture.

Yes, I do see you establishing a third formula. Here are the formulas I see you presenting:

Formula one: In certain prophecies a day is to be recognized as a year.

Formula two: A day could be recognized as a thousand years, as well as a thousand years recognized as a day.

Formula three: A year could be recognized a thousand years.

Now you've explained why you believe a "time" is actually a day, not a year. So you don't agree with me that you've presented the third formula.
But doesn't this then throw off the
"time, times, and half a time" formula we see in both Daniel and Revelation? Won't "time, times, half a time" then mean three and a half days which are transformed by the day year principle to only three and a half years?

Where would we find the authority to apply a double dose of day/year principle on that time period.


Thus from the example of the 1260 days, derived from a time, times and half a time, which are then transformed by the day for year principle to 1260 years, I would say a "TIME" used in this manner = a year.





If by "formula given" you mean a concise statement "a day for year", no it is not stated as such.

But the example of it's use is set in Daniel 9.
Ezekiel's use could easily be waved as unique to Ezekiel's enacted parable, but when we see it in ACTION in the book of Daniel itself, the formula for interpreting Daniel's timelines is set.

Sorry! If I ever said "Daniel 4" gives the formula, I meant to say "Ezekiel 4." Did I really make that mistake?

Daniel 4 is a separate prophecy, unrelated to Ezekiel 4. I'm sorry if I've confused you.

(Still reading through your post...)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ok. I've read a bit more.

Without addressing all of the "opinion" versus "scripture" type questions here, I'll go right to the heart of the issue.

I tried to explain this earlier, but apparently I'm on a roll of late with saying confusing things. Here's another try.

The "day" in Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:6 means one of three things:

1) day
2) year
3) time

Look it up in your Hebrew lexicon, and I think you will find this to be true. It is the Hebrew word "yowm," #3117, I believe, in the Strong's Concordance. That word "day" upon which we base our prophetic day-year time formula has been translated to English from the Hebrew in each of the following forms: day, time, chronicles, daily, ever, year, continually, when, as, while, full, always, whole, alway, [plus a few more].

As you can see, it could easily mean "year" and not just "day." It was translated, in the KJV, as "year" at least 14 times. It was more frequently translated as "day" or as "time," but it can have any one of these meanings.

Now, "times, time, and the dividing of times".... As the Chaldean word that this is, it ONLY occurs in the book of Daniel, and only in 11 verses. It seems to me, however, to correspond with the Hebrew word "yowm." Daniel certainly was fluent in Hebrew, and his mind is likely to have been influenced by the word "yowm" which he had grown up with. It must have been a cultural thing to relate "day" and "year," if truly their Hebrew word overlapped the two concepts. It would be a bit like the Chinese thinking that the number 4 is terribly unlucky because the word for "4" sounds like the word for "death" in their language--only in this case, it's not just a "sound alike." The Hebrew "yowm" actually could mean either day or year.

So when we consider that "time" in the Chaldean here could mean time or year, it is easy to accept that as years, each "time" would be composed of 360 individual days.

The fact that we have corroboration for this interpretation in the book of Revelation is what solidifies this reasoning. Without that, we would be lacking something that we really need in order to be sure of the interpretation.

In other words, there is no need for a #3 time formula. We don't need to interpret the day as a year before re-interpreting the year's days as 360 years. We skip the "day" and go straight to "year" from the original word, which could have either meaning.

I hope I'm not coming across so confusingly as before.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think I understand what you are saying --

"times" can mean either day or year.
Thus for the "time, times and half a time" we are to read
the meaning of time as equal to a year, and we break the year into days and apply the day for a year formula.

But for Daniel 4 we are to read the meaning of "time" directly as a "day"
and apply the day for a 1000 year formula.

Is that correct?

I agree one could make a compelling sermon out of the seven years in Daniel 4, yet I am hesitant to use it as a "day for a year" proof text, due to the lack of consistance with the way we understand the meaning of the "time" in the 1260 days.

Just seems when a word is used in a symbolic way it should be understood in a consistant manner throughout the authors message.


You asked earlier about Ezekiel 4 --
It's been a while since I studied that one but the general concept was that Israel and Judah, as God's people had been woefully negligent of the things of God, and more interested in following their own sinful ways.

Their guilt is figuratively laid on Ezekiel who has to lay on his side for the same number of days, as the years Israel had lived in sin.

I'm sorry, but don't see how any thing I've said has negated either of those two things. And yes I do believe in them.

But first:

What is prophetic time.
What is symbolic time.
What is literal time.
How do they relate to each other.

Yes.

I'm NOT using it as a day-for-year proof text. It isn't such a text. The day for year texts are not in Daniel. They are in Ezekiel and in Numbers. There is not a single reference in Daniel that I have found which gives us the day-year formula.

Regarding the day-millennium concept applied to Daniel 4, the context is what gives us that determination, just as the context of later prophecies in the book help us know that those are not literal days but representative of years according to Ezekiel's formula.


That would seem logical, but Jesus said both that Lazarus was asleep and dead. One was figurative the other literal. Right? I've found that it is unsafe to "pigeonhole" scripture into narrow molds of interpretation. For example, one of my "pet peeves" with regard to prophecy is to hear people speak of the "prophetic books," meaning "Daniel and Revelation." I firmly believe there are more prophecies to be found in Genesis than in the book of Daniel. So far, I've found close to eighty prophecies in Genesis. Every book of the Bible is "prophetic" and contains potential prophecies and/or present truths for our time.


The prophecy of Ezekiel 4 is as "figurative" as the 1260-day prophecy. That is, the years are precise and have a literal fulfillment. But I do not know of any of our leaders promoting its interpretation. They do not have it.

If you have access to the "New Light" section of this forum, I have expounded this prophecy there. Here is the link.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I guess this is an example as to how different people think.
Some lean stronger to what is sometimes termed the left brain dominant approach, (logic, numbers, mathematical formulas) whereas others relate to information more on functional experience etc.

So for some the day/year rests solely on a mathematical stated formula and the outworkings is viewed mainly as confirmation, but not as proof of the principle.

Whereas for others seeing the outworking of the principle is proof, and they then go back to the formula for confirmation.

So yes, the two verses in Numbers and Ezekiel are important in supplying the equation for the principle, but for some in studying Daniel itself, nothing clinches (proves) the day/year principle better than the prophecy of Daniel nine where the principle is obviously functioning.

But that is a sideline --
just to explain why some look to examples as "proof" while others stick to mathematically stated equations.






Yes and no.
I was referring to a symbol being used consistantly throughout the author's message.

Jesus was talking about death and likening it to a sleep from which He, the lifegiver can awaken people, he wasn't using a symbolic word to stand for two different things.
It's a whole different thing.





If we want to see the seven times as symbolic time, won't it be wiser to use the same rule as the rest of the timelines in Daniel?
A "time" is symbolic of a year.
Seven "times" is seven years (comprised of 2520 days) Converted by the day/year princple it becomes 2520 years.
That is -- a day for a year.

Then we would have the 2520 day/years.

Did you know the Millerite chart had a 2520 timeline?
After the disappointment Hiram Edson rethought the 2520 timeline and adapted it to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.


U.Smith dismissed it as a legitamate timeline and the rest of the pioneers didn't write about 2520 days, and thus it faded out of Adventist belief.

Actually there are people trying to revive it.

You asked why I stated the announcement of the exact time of Christ's second coming would be made during the seventh plague?

Here's the seventh plague:



Now go to Great Controversy chapter 40 which describes God's announcement.

There we see the final death decree is about to be enacted. God steps in and delivers His people.
There we see EGW clearly sets the announcement in the seventh plague.

Sorry I somehow switched two numbers --
GC 367 should read GC 637

I downloaded your file from the link above. It was only eleven pages long, I expected it to be much longer from the comments made.

Is it OK to comment on it there -- it seems that thread came to a standstill in 2009. Was there a reason for that?

Yes, please comment in that thread. It died with the ball in Daryl's court, and he may have forgotten to respond. Bumping it might be good anyhow.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Regarding the 2520, I've heard some explanations of it which I cannot buy. I've heard just one explanation, however, which merits further study and which may be legitimate. Unfortunately, I do not remember it well enough to expound on it.

Regarding the timing of the voice in the seventh plague, I've seen Ellen White use scripture to support unrelated things, so her use of the text is not necessarily foolproof evidence in this case of the applicability to the same voice of announcement which we are talking about. I notice that she says the voice says "It is done." It is quite possible that there is more than one voice, and more than one earthquake. Earthquakes these days seem to be increasing in magnitude successively. Jesus spoke seven times upon the cross, and God may speak multiple times in the final moments.

But here's where I base much of the above: another interpretation. "Earthquake" is symbolic. Remember, the book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. We can hardly be certain if things there should be taken literally or not. It may be that things have dual application, being both literal and symbolic, but if one or the other is to be counted the more likely, it is the symbolic.

For example, in the New Earth, we are told we will have "no more sea." What can this mean? How can this be matched to the statements regarding the "sea of glass?" What does "sea" represent?

What about no dogs in heaven? What do "dogs" represent? Is this to be taken literally? (Another thread here addressed this very question once before.)

Just as I believe these terms are symbolic, I also view the "earthquakes" as symbolic. In this case, we can go back to "earth" and see what it represents. Remember the earth swallowing up the water cast out of the mouth of the dragon? That picture was obviously not literal. What if the earth quakes?

I believe earthquakes represent upheavals among the heathen and among the nations. Such things as war, rumors of war, economic crises, or anything that causes mass confusion or pandemonium might be included here. For example, the twin towers caused a major string of events with repercussions throughout the world. This would be an example of an "earthquake."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

She is not just quoting a verse here, she is describing the whole seventh plague, and in the midst of that description she places the announcement made to the saints.

Read the chapter for yourself --
The final death decree is about to be carried out,
God intervenes -- and all nature goes wild.
Yes, I fully believe that earthquake will be literal, though the unsaved will be in great turmoil as well.
Prisons will burst open, God's saints who were lanquishing in them are set free (just like Paul and Silas)
The voice "It is Done"
The special resurrection occurs, including those who crucified Christ.
The saints faces shine.
The hand of God appears in the sky holding the ten commandments and the unsaved realize they have lost out.
Then God announces the day and hour of Christ's coming.

Soon appears that cloud which the saints recognize as the sign of Christ's coming....

It's a most exciting chapter
It's one I suggest everyone read and reread and become very familiar with as it's one that will help carry God's people through terrible time of trouble.

The 2520 days have been a mere curiosity for me as I could not accept all those details as it was presented to me.

The basic form might be useful though.
Miller actually saw two lines of 2520.
One starting with the Northern kingdom of Israel going into captivity.
The other starting with Mannasseh king of Judah going into captivity.

In Miller's words:

"Israel began to be carried away in the days of Hoshea, 722 B. C., and from that time to 1798 after Christ, is exactly 2520 years, or the seven prophetic years. How remarkable, that when the seven years ended, God began to deliver his church from her bondage, which for ages had been made subject to the kings of the earth. In 1798 the church came out of the wilderness, and began to be delivered from her captivity. But the completion of her slavery to the kingdoms of the earth, is reserved for another period. Beginning B. C., 677 years, (When Mannasseh was taken captive) seven prophetic years, or 2520 common years, would end in A. D. 1843. (later changed to 1844 due to missed year 0)

Here's a pastor who's pretty well discounted the 2520.

http://sabbathsermons.com/2011/02/13/why-the-2520-prophecy-is-not-important/

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hmmm.... well he makes a very good point against people who try to use the timelines to predict events past 1844.

Sounds like someone was using the 2520 to say "in 9/11 supposedly according to a reinterpretation of the trumpets that now in 9/11 supposedly this is when the loud cry started".

But that sort of thing is what people are doing with all the timelines recognized or not.


However, his argument against the original 2520 chart are very weak since the 2520 do NOT go past 1844 and the quotes he gives from EGW don't actually say 2300 was the longest prophecy, only that that "The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844".

So yes, I agree that, should we use the "7 times" of Daniel four, his arguments on "The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844" should be taken into consideration.

And yes, I mentioned "U.Smith dismissed it (the 2520) as a legitamate timeline and the rest of the pioneers didn't write about 2520 days, and thus it faded out of Adventist belief.
So I agree with Lemon's statement on that.

However, we have been speaking of Daniel 4 not Lev. 26 and the suggestion has come up that Daniel 4 is a legitamate timeline.

And, Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the end of those days!

How do we know to how to take the 7 times of Daniel 4? Dedication was not able to answer my question about what the differences of prophetic, symbolic, and literal time was. She seemed to mix them and not make a distinction of the terms. Maybe a different way of asking the same question would be to ask, When should we take prophetic time symbolically or literally? Are there any guidelines?

I would suggest the following points:

1) The Bible does not give a prophetic time formula without a reason (i.e. no use for it).
2) Bible interpretation always must take the context into consideration.
3) Things which are obviously abnormal or illogical should be examined for prophetic or symbolic meaning.
4) At least two witnesses for a point should suffice to establish it, but be careful of using just one text to support a doctrine.
5) Allow the Holy Spirit to guide the thoughts, and lay all personal biases or traditions aside.


The Bible explains itself. In the case which you have asked about, kland, I would note several things:

1) There is a day-for-millennium time formula which is given in the Bible in at least two different texts. Where does this formula apply? It must be given us for a reason, just as they day-year formula is given.
2) The day-year formula legitimately applies to both the prophecy in which it is given and to additional prophecies. This is to be expected with the Bible which frequently reuses symbols and the like to mean the same thing. The day-millennium formula, if we are being consistent, would also have this same potential of multiple applications.
3) The story of Nebuchadnezzar is so strange that it defies reason. It is entirely illogical that Nebuchadnezzar would grow feathers and talons instead of a mane and hooves, or something else more inline with a grass feeder. For him to eat grass while at the same time being depicted more as an eagle is something that should make us take notice and look deeper.

When we examine the symbols, we find them all there:

grass -- people: Isaiah 40:6-7
birds -- demons: Revelation 18:2
pride -- Lucifer's first sin: Ezekiel 28
insanity -- Satan: Ha! He's lost his mind!

To me it seems the most logical conclusion to understand that Nebuchadnezzar had represented Lucifer/Satan in type, just as the prince of Tyrus does in Ezekiel 28.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"And, Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the end of those days!"

There is absolutely NO mention of the 1260, 1290, 1350 days in that entire chapter in Great Controversy.

Once God steps in to deliver the saints during the seventh plague, they are already sealed and now radiating the glory of heaven, the special resurrection has taken place. The wicked fall at their feet confessing that God loved them.
The WAITING time is definitely over.

If you are trying to say the announcement is given after some speciefied 1290 days, and Christ comes after 1335 days. I can't agree, we are not to do that sort of thing.

There are NO timelines between 1844 and the second coming.

My answers were not to your satisfaction obviously.
"Prophetic time" is not the same as "time mentioned in prophecies". Yet it seemed to me you were mixing those two as one and then trying to discredit the whole system known as "prophetic time".

The term "Prophetic time" is when the day/year is applied. It is applied when the vision covers vaste amounts of time.
Daniel nine is our key that Daniel's visions use the day/year principle when outlining the events of history.

Daniel four is a prophecy about a king. It's setting is local in Daniel's time. So it would be time measured in that setting. What people call "literal time" in which the day/year is not applied.

The same time lines as found in Daniel are in Revelation. Revelation uses the same way of depicting large segments of earth's history in day for a year formula.


"Prophetic time" with "literal time" is not confusing to me. It's those who want it both ways that switch them around so we can't tell what is "prophetic" and what is "literal" that is confusing.
It's quite plain if one is consistant.

Is the "day for millennium" actually a prophetic formula?

You've done a good job to show that the day for a year is a prophetic formula as both Ezekiel and Numbers definitely use it as such. Both state formula and also a certain number of days which stood for a certain number of specified years. The formula and an application were given, making it clear this was a prophetic formula.

But do the texts speaking of a day like a thousand years do the same?

Let's have a look at the texts:



What is it saying?

Well, people are scoffing saying the rumor that Christ is coming and will execute judgment is a myth; for thousands of years have passed and nothing has happened. (They've even dismissed the flood from their thoughts)

Peter is saying
TIME isn't the issue with God.
He can do in one day what we might think should take a thousand years, and though a thousand years may seem terribly long to us, it's not long at all for God, only like a day to God.

There is no prophecy relating to a day for a 1000 years in the text in which the "formula" is applied as an example.

Indeed it does the opposite.
It's telling us not to worry for God is holding off judgment because He is longsuffering not willing that any should perish!

BUT the time will come when judgment will be executed. Not at the end of a stated day for 1000 years, BUT when it won't be expected!
Even in Peter's day the people are admonished to look for and hasten unto the day of the Lord, carefully living a life honourable to God.



I'm not saying we can't draw very important lessons from Daniel 4, for indeed we can but,
I don't consider the literal realities within the propecy illogical at all.
It doesn't say he grew feathers nor talons.
His NAILS grew till they looked like birds claws.
And that is a good simile because I've seen people who let their nails grow one to two inches and they were thick and curved like claws.
His hair (totally uncombed) grew till it looked like feathers sticking out everywhere. Hair can do that -- believe me, it's called "bad hair day". And seven years of no combing hair would be a long MESS -- it would be a super "bad hair day"!

Growing hooves would be totally illogical, simply because people don't grow hooves, but some can grow nails that look like claws.

In those days insane people were driven out away from civilization. So yes, he did eat plants and grass.
I would hesitate to spiritualize away the reality of what happened to Nebuchadnezzar those seven years.

But I do think you believe he was literally insane those seven years.



The seven times as being interpreted by the day for a year principle resulting in 2520 years, was "kind of dismissed" with a sermon from a man who discredited it because someone had reapplied them to the 9/11 event. That author brought up quote after quote showing that the longest timelines ended in 1844.

The 2520 timeline basically runs from the time when Israel began to lose the "scepter" or "crown". From that time onward, God's people were under political/religious powers -- Babylon, Persia, Greece, Imperial Rome, Papal Rome -- till finally that power was broken in 1798.

"The crown removed from Israel passed successively to the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. God says, "It shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it Him." {Ed 179.3}

In 1844 Christ,

dedication,

To get one thing straight here, in case my confusing statements are somehow again at fault, let me clarify: I do NOT believe the 2520 prophecy has much of anything to do with Daniel 4. I am not making that connection here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Dedication,

Regarding 2 Peter 3, I would invite you to read the prophecy it touches on expounded at this link:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=103804#Post103804

Any discussion on that prophecy would be welcome in that thread, and we can continue here with the post-1844 prophetic time discussion.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

I realize that.
I never said or implied that you did.
My question is WHY jump to a day for a millinnium when all the other prophecies in Daniel use a day for a year.
My question was WHY say a "time" means a day, when the other prophecies beginning point uses a "time" as a year.

Yes, I know you explained a "time" could mean either. But that's not consistant use of the word when dealing with Daniel's prophecies.

Consistant interpretation would say Seven times = Seven years equals 2520 days. Use the day for year formula and a person has 2520 years.

You dismissed seven times equal 2520 years (a day for a year) with a sermon from someone called Pastor Lemon, who gave an excellent presentation that the longest timelines reach to 1844 not beyond.

Which I find really strange as the ORIGINAL 2520 years ended in 1844, while your year for a millennium goes way beyond 1844.

But post 1844 prophetic events aren't based on "time".





And more quotes:

As was discussed before, Ellen White does not say what you just said.

You are correct.
I am having a hard time determining what they mean to you.
Could you explain what the terms mean to you without adding anything in between? If you list them concisely and straightforward, I might be able to understand.

Prophetic time -

Symbolic time -

Literal time -

Could you make a comparison of them with the ones for day for a year and show how they are similar?

I don't believe the Bible says that. Could you quote the version where you think it says that?

Symbols is what I'm having trouble with. What is a symbol and what are similes, metaphors, and the like? Is there any prophecy which is not symbolic? Are all prophecies required to be symbolic, is there an example of one which isn't?

If you really look at all the many times EGW addressed the issue of "time" after 1844 and warned people NOT to speculate on that, one can only come to the conclusion that we are NOT to apply the timeline prophecies to any of the last day events between 1844 and the 2nd coming.
It matters not whether you call them "prophetic time" "literal time" or "symbolic time".

I fully realize the arguments that people have made trying to excuse their attempts to place the final events on a time line.
The argument usual goes -- its not "prophetic time" (ie day for year) now it's supposedly "literal time" (no day for year principle) , but all that's doing is trying to use semantics to try and get around the many statements EGW makes that these times all ended by 1844?

They are still taking the PROPHETIC TIMELINES and reapplying them and doing what EGW said not to do.

Dedication, I agree with you. Last day events will play out according to the chronology spelled out in the SOP. Some of those events are linked to time. For example:

Comparison of day-year and day-millennium:

Day-Year --> (See Num. 14:34, Ezek. 4:6.) One day represents a year. Used in a number of prophetic contexts including 40 days/years for spying Canaan/wandering in wilderness; 390 days/years for Ezekiel laying on his left side/probationary time before Israel's judgment; 40 days/years for Ezekiel on right side/probationary time before Judah's judgment.

In the uses given for the 1260, 1290, 1335, there is no other initial representation of the days outside of the specific prophetic mention of them in vision. Daniel does not "do" anything for those durations in terms of days to make a representation of them in years. Nevertheless, the prophetic day-year yardstick is already established before Daniel's prophecies are given him, so it is likely he understood them.

Day-Millennium --> (See Ps. 90:4, 3 Pet. 3:8.) A day is used to represent a millennium. Used in the very longest of time sequences, those spanning the entire "week" of earth's history in sin. Two specific prophecies follow this time formula: Creation Week, and Daniel 4. The creation week prophecy gives an outline of the entire plan of redemption, whereas Daniel 4 is a representation of the period of time in which sin will be permitted on earth as led by Lucifer. These times are, of course, one and the same, but the dual prophecies give the same time from two separate perspectives. The only additional prophecy I know of which uses the day-millennium formula is that given to Adam and Eve in the garden, in which they were told that the day they ate of the fruit, they would die. It is obvious that the only prophetic time formula which would fit is the day-millennium, and it is clear that it was not literal time, as they did not die either that very day, nor in that first year.

Regarding Nebuchadnezzar:

Dan. 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].

I'm leaving in the brackets to show where words were supplied. It is obvious that birds do not grow hair, so we logically deduce "feathers." Whereas the nails grow like those of birds, I used the words "talons" because that is the kind an eagle would have, and we see the word "eagle" in the text itself. The KJV translators used the word "claws." Eagles' claws are more properly called talons in modern language.

I will readily admit to not having been quoting in my earlier statement, but I think the differences here are rather petty.

Regarding symbols:

A symbol is any word or concept which is used to represent something else. For example, a "serpent" can frequently represent Satan in the Bible. It is a symbol. A "dove" can represent the Holy Spirit, i.e. it is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In the case of Daniel 4:33, the principal symbols would include grass and eagles.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Agreed. Ellen White's statements regarding prophetic time after 1844 are given the following premises:

1) The prophecy is on "definite" time.
2) The prophecy regards the second advent.

If one or the other of the above premises proves false, then Mrs. White's statements do not apply. Those were the two conditions required in her statements.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, earth's time continues right up to the second coming, and of course the events happen in connection with our reckoning of hours and days and years. After all 167 years have gone by since 1844. And yes, there will be a number of days from the moment God steps in to deliver His people from the death decree,vindicating them before their enemies, until Jesus appears in the clouds of glory.
But nobody will know how many days that will be prior to the announcement. We can't figure it out by reapplying the timelines, as it's not given to us prior to that time.

OK you want definitions:

Prophetic time -- is a time prophecy MEANT to be understood in the day/year principle. (1260 days stand for 1260 years etc.)
Prophetic time is NOT to be reinterpreted and renamed as literal time.
Prophetic time is PROPHETIC time.

Symbolic time -- is often used as a synonym of prophetic time but that is NOT actually correct. Symbolic time actually tends to "round" off the time and give it a symbolic meaning which is neither prophetic time or literal time, such as -- 7 is symbolic of completeness, 10 is a number to suggest inclusiveness. Some will turn the 1260 years into simply symbolizing times of trouble no matter what the actual length of time may be.
(I will have to be careful not to interchange those two phrases in the future for they are different)

Literal time is what we live with. Actual time of 24 hour days, 60 minute hours etc.

1) Definite time is ascribing a certain definite number of days from one event to the other

2) The prophecy regards ANY of the events of the last days, not just the second coming.

"There will always be false and fanatical movements made by persons in the church who claim to be led of God--those who will run before they are sent and will give day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. The enemy is pleased to have them do this, for their successive failures and leading into false lines cause confusion and unbelief.--2SM 84 (1897). {LDE 35.2}

This is one of those types of situations that makes me extra leery of compilations. In this particular case, it appears the White Estate has been egregiously irresponsible in terms of accurately portraying Mrs. White's intent. I am unable to find any place in her writings where the full letter from which your quote is extracted has been published. In fact, it appears that they pieced it out by the sentence. Here are two other sentences and/paragraphs that have also come from that same letter, for about as much context as I am able to procure.



As you can see, both of those statements are torn apart from their original contexts and placed three chapters apart in the compilation called "Last Day Events," published in 1992. Your statement from the second volume of the Selected Messages, published in 1958, is from this same letter, originally written to Brother and Sister Belden, July 29, 1897.

Suffice it to say, the context of her message is clearly that of a second-advent prophecy. The "day and date" refer to setting times for Jesus' return. The "unfulfilled prophecy" is a reference to the same. Jesus' return has been prophesied since He walked this earth. Obviously, it is yet unfulfilled.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think she wrote "unfulfilled prophecy" for a reason.


She also wrote:

"Let all our brethren and sisters beware of anyone who would set a time for the Lord to fulfill His Word in regard to His coming, or in REGARD TO ANY OTHER PROMISE HE HAS MADE of special significance. It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own power."
TM 54-55

"We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ." 1SM 188

"God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept...but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almight." 1SM 191

Dedication,

I think those other times of "special significance" could apply to a rather diverse group of events or circumstances, including, but not limited to, moving away from the cities, fleeing to the mountains, selling properties or giving sacrificially to the cause of God. I don't necessarily see it as specifically negating any and all prophecies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

WHOA! Who said anything about negating any or all prophecies!??
Not me!!!
The prophecies dealing with the crises and situations just before Christ's coming are IMPORTANT to understand!

What I'm addressing is putting TIME restraints on them.
We are not to tie any of them to definite time predictions.

Dedication,

I think we're close to the same view, only I believe that there may be prophecies based on time that do not give a time for the Second Advent, or some other not-to-known event, such as the close of probation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Amen!

Are you referring to time prophecies in D&R?

Yes, but not limited to D&R. For instance, Jesus gave prophecies regarding the end times, none of which is upon "definite time," but all of which help us to understand what is ahead and what will be the sequence of events. If we have a sequence, is that not "time" of sorts?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, which of the time prophecies in D&R do you think apply to last day events? Please do not elaborate at this point. For example, if you think the 1260 will be fulfilled, simply state when and how. For example, the 1260 starts with the enforcement of Sunday laws and ends with the close of probation.

MM,

I'm still studying these points and am open to changes in them, even great changes, until I have developed my own understanding and founded it well upon Scripture (incl. Mrs. White). However, what I have generally believed includes the following:

1) The 1290 and 1335 day prophecies seem to have no practical past-fulfillment explanation. People talk about 508 AD, but what of significance happened then? It's difficult enough to establish anything for the 538 AD date, much less 508. I'm sure a great many things happened in both of those years, but for any event to be Biblically significant is a separate category.

2) I see no reason why the day-year times cannot have a second literal-time application.

3) I've generally considered the final times to have a sequence akin to the following, each in literal days.

The 1290 and the 1335 start together, the 1260 and the 1290 end together. The 1290 starts at the proclamation of the Sunday law, and the 1260 starts at its enforcement. The 30-day period between is the time of testing Ellen White speaks of for our church. The 1260 would be the time of Jacob's trouble. During the days following, the final plagues are poured out. The 1335 ends about where the day and hour get announced.

Something like that. As I said, I'm not 100% fixed on this yet, but this time sequence seems to fit what I've read in Mrs. White about the final events.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

(Sounds like you are saying, it's obvious and everyone just knows)

Can literal time be given in prophecy? I see you emphasized "MEANT". Does that allow for time prophecy MEANT to be understood literally?

Would you object to the definition of prophetic: of or relating to prophecy; predicting or foretelling events (including time events)?

If there were literal time in prophecy, what would you call that regarding relating to prophecy as opposed to time we live with?

Have you ever heard of someone say, "Well, that's very prophetic"? Do you think they had in mind a day for year?

But isn't this trying to place these events into definite time?


One month after Sunday laws are agitated they go into force. From that point there will be three and a half years (1260 days) of "time of trouble". Usually people will then put the end of probation when the 1290/1260 days come to an end. That's when the death decree is announced. Jacob's Time of trouble is usually placed in the last 45 days, (between the end of the 1290 days and end of 1335 days) when God's people realize probation has closed, their agony being both spiritual and physical as the world is organizing to exterminate them. But at the end of those 45 days God delivers them and announces Christ's coming.

That's attempting to placing those events in a definite time frame.
It can be mapped out on a chart --

S.A. -Sunday law Agitated
S.E. -Sunday law Enforced
P.c. -Probation Closed
T.T. -Time of Trouble
J.T.T. - Jacob's time of troubld

<S.A.---------------1335 years--------------JTT---------Delivered>
<S.A.---------------1290 years-----------P.C.>
.........<S.E.-------1260 years-----------P.C.>

30 days.......... 1260 days for TT........45 days.


See -- a neat chart of DEFINITE TIME predictions, based on what you hinted at (though you may differ) and what others have tried to get me to believe.

Do i believe it?
All the events in the chart will take place,yes.
But the time element shouldn't be there. Placing the events in a time line like the one above??? -- NO, I don't believe we should do that. We don't KNOW those times. We don't know how long ANY of those events will last.
Those time lines (1260,1290, 1335) are "Prophetic Time" lines not literal time lines. They were all finished by 1844.

Like I said earlier:
PROPHETIC TIME is not the same as prophecies mentioning time.

PROPHETIC TIME is a phrase that has taken on a meaning all its own. PROPHETIC TIME is when a prophecy gives time in coded language that is to be understood as a day for a year.

An important point to determine when the prophecy is using PROPHETIC TIME, is to take note of the END POINT IN VIEW in these two different kinds of time prophecy.

Prophecies that are not dealing in PROPHETIC TIME, only in actual time, are generally dealing with people who are either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet. They are usually dealing with more local events.

Prophecies using PROPHETIC TIME on the other hand, cover large era's of time.

So there's a difference in how time is involved.
Prophecies speaking about more local time happenings do not use PROPHETIC TIME,
while prophecies using PROPHETIC TIME have the long-range view spanning large era's of time.



"PROPHETIC TIME" is not the same as prophecies mentioning time or having some personal insight into the future.

So time in a prophetic vision is not prophetic time?

I'm sorry, but that just seems really weird.

But aren't we trying to determine when time should be taken literally or prophetically[sic]? If we determine ahead of time that something is to be taken literally or prophetically[sic], then doesn't that remove the whole determination?

Compared another way, if evolutionists have already determined that creation didn't happen, doesn't that remove the whole investigation process?

For, the only way you can say Daniel 4 is not "coded" and only covers local events and Daniel 12 is "coded" and covers large era's of time, is by saying,
Because it is.
That it goes without investigating.

Does that really make logical sense to you?

If one co-mingles prophetic time and symbolic time, one is only left with either creating another term, denying literal time in all prophetic visions, or by saying time in a prophetic vision is not prophetic time....

And tell us about the 1335 time line. The only thing I've heard of those putting it in the past doesn't make sense. Are you able to make sense of it?

Would the 1335 days have to start at the same time as 1290 or 1260? In Revelation 17 and 18, there is mentioned of 1 hour. If the people are going to be blessed for waiting to the end of the 1335 days, I'm seeing it probably would be after the one hour (15 days?) the kings rule.

Thank you, GC, for stating your ideas so succinctly. Such simplicity makes it more believable. Convoluted and complicated explanations make it less believable. So, again, thank you. However, I hope you're wrong about the 1260 being the duration of JTOT.

JTOT begins sometime after the first four plagues make the planet all but uninhabitable. I cannot imagine people living for 1260 days - THREE AND HALF YEARS - on a planet nearly decimated by plagues. Ellen wrote:


The plagues will prevent the planet from producing food. It will be incapable of yielding sustenance. So, how can people live for 3 1/2 years?

A prophetic vision dealing with a time period presents time either in "literal time" or as "prophetic time".




People use it that way often enough, so why would it be"weird"?

How often have you heard someone say something like this--

"We aren't interpreting the 1260, 1335 in 'prophetic time' when we re-apply it again in the future, rather we are using literal time."?



There are guidelines.
One of which I mentioned concerning the "endpoint" or duration of the timeline. Is it covering long era's of time, or is it a localized prediction concerning the immediate future.

Why should it remove "the determination"?






I disagree.
Daniel 4 is a localized prophecy concerning a king that was living at that time. The time period covers the years in his life when he suffers from insanity. Thus it's easy to determine this is a prophecy using literal time.

Daniel 12 is the conclusion to the vision of Daniel 11 which covers a vaste era of time. A careful study shows the time periods mentioned are linked to events spoken of in Daniel 11 (and Daniel 8 and 7)
To wrest Daniel 12 out of the "prophetic time" into "literal time" also destroys the concept of "prophetic time" in Daniel seven and eight.



To be honest -- yes what I wrote makes sense to me, what you wrote does not make sense to me at all.
You seem to be doing exactly what you seem to be condemning -- that is -- you seem to be saying prophetic time, literal time and symbolic time are all one and the same in a vision about prophecy.

But no, each is different, and I gave you the definitions.

PROPHECY can use "literal time" (that is stating time in actual years)
Prophecy can use "prophetic time" (coded by the day for year language)

Actually, I haven't heard Chapter 12 talked about much at all. There seems to be a void, and the chapter seems to be avoided.

Because you already determined it ahead of time.

Green disagrees. He had said it covered a long era and therefore you should use symbolic time. Who is right? How do we determine who is right? And that is what I'm trying to get at. How does someone who has never read Daniel, know how to apply any rules? What are the rules? You said one thing, Green said another, how would he determine which one is right? It seems the only way is to ask you which it is and you'd tell him.

Reading chapter 12, which is after chapter 7 & 8, and at the very end, and no previous mention of 1290 and 1335, and is an epilogue, and is after the question of how long shall all these wonders be (what wonders?), why wouldn't someone who hasn't already been told what it has already been determined, why wouldn't he think it is for the future even if he hasn't been given any rules for deciding if it was symbolic or literal time?

I disagree. Daniel 12 is an epilogue to either at least the vision or the entire book.

No one is and no it doesn't.

Nope, I'm not. I've never said such and am perturbed you would say that. I've always said that prophetic time, that is, time in a prophecy, can be literal or symbolic.

Yes, thanks for explaining that. I guess we don't have the same terms of basis. I think that was why I couldn't understand what you were saying.

All time in prophecy is not prophetic time.
You might want to consider saying that several times and see if it really makes logical sense.
For example, substitute other terms in its place.
All ingredients in bread are not bread ingredients.
All code in a program is not program code.

I guess I look at it as, how could thousands of people live 40 years in a desert with no food nor water? Or Elijah during famine? Which, wasn't that about 3 1/2 years, too?

Personally, I'm not sure I agree that the planet won't produce any food. The quote talks about fields and crops. I just find it hard to believe weeds won't grow. Those who go back to the Genesis diet, and who leave the cities, should find life much better than if they don't follow council.

Ellen referred to this time period using the expression "a number of days".


Again, the time period between GC 614.1 and 640.3 is referred to as "a number of days". Lots will happen during this time period. Notably, though, there is no mention of God supernaturally feeding the wicked or of them foraging for food among the wild weeds. It's difficult to imagine someone using the expression "a number of days" to describe 3 1/2 years of utter ruin and devastation, the worst the world has ever known.

What do you think will happen in those "a number of days"?

All we are told is that the wicked acknowledge that the ones they persecuted are the ones loved by God.

This announcement takes place during the seventh plague, after the death decree was overturned by God's deliverance.

Speaking of the plagues, how much time is involved here?



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

True, the wicked worshiping at the saints' feet happens toward the end of this time period. However, according to Ellen, this time period begins the moment Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary and ends when the saints behold Him in the eastern sky as a small, black cloud. In addition to the wicked worshiping at the saint's feet is everything else Ellen described in GC 613-640. Do you agree?

GC, are you suggesting the trumpets and the plagues will happen simultaneously? The first four plagues, see below, will not allow for people live for five months. The earth will not be able to support human life for more than a number of days.


Everyone will be infected with "a noisome and grievous sore." Infection would prevent people from living for more than a number of days. Every "living soul" in the sea will die. All "the rivers and fountains of waters" will become blood. Without potable water, people will die within a number of days. People will be "scorched" with "fire" and "great heat". In addition to their sores, no water to drink, they will also be scorched with fire and great heat. People cannot live for more than a number of days under these conditions. To suggest some of them will live for "five months" seems unrealistic.

Where do you find that?
You'll have to show me.

Read the CHAPTER in which EGW says the announcement is made.
The plagues have fallen. IT'S THE LAST PLAGUE, not the first.
The time of Jacob's trouble (which occurs after probation closes) has ENDED before the announcement is made.

All that stuff takes place BEFORE the announcement.
The only thing that EGW records as happening AFTER the announcement is the wicked acknowledging that God loves those they had tried to kill. Then Jesus comes.

MM,

I guess it doesn't much matter to me if the five-month period is part of the plagues or not. In either case, I know of few people, if any, trying to place this time period before 1844. Do you know of any such interpretations?

If this is after 1844, as I suspect, the time seems to be rather clearly a prophetic period based on definite time, though not Second-Advent time, and one which would clearly illustrate the point that Mrs. White is referring to Advent time in her declaration.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Here's the sequence of events in Chapter 39 - 40 of Great Controversy.

1. The last message has been preached, the latter rain has fallen, an angel announces that the work is done, the saints are sealed. p. 614

2. Christ leaves the sanctuary and darkness covers the earth.
Mercy has ended. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.p. 615

3. Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment. p. 615-616

4. Time of Jacob's trouble commense p. 617-620

5. EGW admonishes people to prepare for this time. p. 621-624

6. Description of the deceptions to precede -- wonders, Satan pretending to be Christ. p. 625- 626

7. EGW gets back to describing the beginnings of the death decree #3 which signals the time of Jacob's trouble #4.
The people of God will flee from the cities and villages and associate together in companies, dwelling in the most desolate and solitary places. p. 627

8. Many are imprisoned. As probation closes, the plagues begin. p. 628

9. Describes first 4 plagues p. 629

10. God's people while suffering privation do not suffer the plagues p. 630

11. God's people seem to be at the mercy of their persecuters and it appears they will soon all be killed. p. 631

12. Angels guard God's people, even though some persecuters come before the date of the death decree and try to kill God's people the angel's stop them. p. 632

13. The Lord gives encouragement to His people -p. 633

14. Help will come p. 634-5

15. The day of the death decree arrives. The wicked rush upon God's people with jeering and murderous intent. p. 636

16. Black clouds -- a rainbow -- a voice "Look up" They see the rainbow as token of their deliverance. The wicked arrested in their intentions. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course p. 637

17. The seventh plague described.
The special resurrection takes place. p. 638

18. terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. a star whose brilliancy is increased fourfold speaks hope to the faithful p. 639

19. Faithful rejoice.
A hand holding commandments appear in sky
Wicked see they have been fighting God's authority p. 640

20. The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. p. 641

21. Then is seen the small black cloud which is the sign of His coming p.641



So we see that announcement is not made until the VERY END!
After the seventh plague!


Yes, there are other quotes that do not include all these details, but when we place those quotes with the events in the outline SHE GIVES in Great Controversy we can see where they fit.

It takes a number of days for the "cloud" to travel from the heavens to earth.

Obviously the "synogogue of satan" was not worshipping at the feet of the saints until point #19 is reached.

The pioneers placed all six trumpets prior to 1844.
That includes the five month prophecy.

Trumpets five and six show the rise and devastation of the muslim nations upon the Christian nations.

This makes a lot of sense as we see the muslims
the king of the south -- showing up again shortly before probation closes in Daniel 11:40-45, pushing against the king of the north who uses it as an excuse to set up his authority over the nations.

That hasn't been my experience.





Go read the chapter yourself.



Yes, it does.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.


So you see the same event is spoken of in each of those chapters.

The question is asked:

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long the vision, the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

The answer -- 2300 evening and mornings -- answers the "how long the vision" part of the question.
The vision covers a 2300 year period.

The answer as to how long the daily and transgression of desolation trods down the sanctuary is given in Daniel 12 as 1290 days or 1290 years.

So from this we see that 1290 years are a subset of the 2300 years.




Well, let's look at how EGW used the term "prophetic time".

"prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days." EW 244

"The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Rev. 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.--7BC 971 (1900).

This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971.7}

She clearly says there is no "prophetic time" after 1844.

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel. It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end." Letter 161 - July 30, 1903.

* read & study
* all need to understand
* before the time of the end

___________

Do you agree with Ellen:


Also, Uriah Smith concurred here.

I appreciate all the work you put into listing everything that happens between Jesus leaving the heavenly sanctuary and appearing as a small, black cloud in the east. Here's the quote I'm referring to:


Jesus leaves the sanctuary the precise moment probation closes and the plagues begin to fall. "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth." {GC 614.1} It takes "a number of days" for Jesus to pass from the sanctuary to the east. Most of the things you listed happen during this time period. Do you see what I mean?

Dedication,

You have conveniently omitted the context for every one of those quotes. The context for each will be the "Second Coming." This was Mrs. White's topic.

In Paul's writings, he speaks of the law being abolished. Certainly, it is. But ALL law? Or was there a relevant context? Context, then, is of utmost importance when doing due diligence to the scriptures.

This is also the case here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In 1844, something very significant happened. A biblically-based, prophecy-directed proclamation of the day of Jesus' coming went out to all the world. It was the last such prophecy based on "prophetic time" that was to occur. Even the final announcement of the day and hour which God Himself gives will not be to all the world, for only the righteous will understand it. Never again, then, will there be such a prophecy upon "definite time."

Indefinite time? Certainly. We know He will come. We can certainly preach it, even now. Nothing prohibits us this, and there are prophecies which tell us of His coming. At least one such prophecy exceeds the length of the prophecy which Mrs. White called "the longest reckoning." She referred to the 2300 day prophecy. But the prophecy of Daniel 2 exceeds that of the 2300 for length. Notably, it is not based upon "definite time." Those are the two principal premises of all of Mrs. White's statements regarding post-1844 prophecy being "no more."

1) The prophecy is based on "definite time."
2) The prophecy announces to all the second coming.

If it does the above, it is forbidden.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

That's an interesting case, Mike, and one which I do have questions about. I had always believed it until I looked further into it once several years ago, at which point I came across a few uncertainties. Mrs. White herself makes little mention of this (the quote you found is the only one), and it appears that little was said about this after its date had passed. I am not saying here that I do not believe it, only that I do not find a strong case for it, and I'm open to reinterpreting it.

As for the trumpets themselves, I think events like 9/11 might have something to do with them. Again, I'm still trying to understand these things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

When compared with the sequence in Great Controversy we see that this isn't talking about the close of probation, but of Jesus preparing to come to earth. He is mounting the cloud that will bring Him to earth.

The voice of God (which Great Controversy places AFTER the plagues have fallen, and after the saints are delivered from the death decree) has announced the time of Christ's coming.

Notice the saints are FREE! their captivity has been turned! -- so this happens at the END of the time of trouble when God delivers them! The "number of days" simply point to a few days between the announcement and actual sighting of the cloud.

That's why I outlined the events in Great Controversy so you could SEE where that quote actually comes in the stream of time.

She is speaking of PROPHETIC TIME.

I already posted several quotes where she clearly points out it's MORE than just the second coming. It's the whole concept of trying place endtime events on ANY kind of timeline.

But people don't listen to her.
In the past sixty years I've seen such a confusion of timeline interpretations -- people coming demanding we accept their "new light" all based on time predictions. Whole churches getting divided over it. Oh, they all say they aren't predicting the second coming itself.
But so far all their time lines have failed. People (usually those who got caught up in the excitement) have left the church after the predictions failed --



What troubles me is that I see so much of this trying to predict how many days or months future events will take (things not revealed and which we are clearly told not to try and predict) yet SO LITTLE attention to the meaning of those Prophetic Time lines which is the very foundation of Adventism.

Yes, or more precisely...


Or do you believe she is speaking only of YOUR definition of "prophetic time?"

What makes you so sure that you have the only possibly-correct understanding of what the prophetess was communicating?

Her quote actually exempts a number of other possibilities and focuses on prophetic time leading up to the Advent. That is THE time, above all others, we are not to have prophecies for after 1844.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There are also many who are not studying, as Mrs. White counseled we should, the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation. There is still much to be understood from those books, if she is to be believed. That also implies there are still truths to be uncovered that may not have been part of our message in her day.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"precede the second coming" includes all the timelines that mark out the endtime events that precede the second coming, not point to the actual second coming date.

And, she says, these all reached to 1844.

And yet so much of the "new light" is simply trying to map out the events of the future on timelines!

I don't think she meant that due to her many and strong statements that there are NO more last day message based on time.

So what did she mean?



So we don't fully understand everything on WHAT compromises the mark of the beast and the actual difficulties that will be faced when civil laws enforce a counterfeit commandment.




This isn't talking about mapping out timelines. This is digging deep into the spiritual meanings!

The problem with your statement here is that it doesn't match Mrs. White's teaching. You have overgeneralized.

It reminds me of the creeping compromise form of error that I see in some of the modern Bible translations. For example, whereas the KJV has translated "uncover [someone's] nakedness," the NIV and others now have "have sexual relations with [someone]." Is it ok now to "see" but not "touch?" (I.e. one can uncover the nakedness of anyone, so long as it does not go beyond? Nudity anyone?)

When we change the scope, we alter the meaning. When we alter the meaning, we lose information that may have been important to our ability to correctly understand the original message.

This is why I'm so fastidious about this point from Mrs. White's writings. She worded her statements rather carefully, repeatedly referencing "definite time." To adjust that to the new scope of "time" in general is risky, in my opinion.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"definite time" predictions is putting last day events into definite time frames
"general time" is simply understanding them without any attempts to place them in definite time frames.

It's attributing DEFINITE time onto the events -- like mapping them out on a "so many days for this and that" a "after so many days this will happen" type of time line.

I see the continuoes attempt to place "definite time" onto the last day events as clearly the compromising going on.

How do we know who is right? Because I don't see it this way. When Mrs. White spoke of "definite time," she was contrasting what happened in 1844 with what would not happen again--an exact date proclaimed for Jesus' Second Coming. I see the "definite time" as a reference to a precise date for this event. I do not see it as precluding all prophetic events, nor even of erasing all precise times.

God is a god of precision. He is a god of timeliness. Things will happen on time according to His schedule. Furthermore, Amos 3:7 indicates that He will reveal His secrets to His servants the prophets, and Joel has told us that many will prophesy. Ellen White was not the last of a dying breed. There will be more. What messages will they bring us? Can we be sure there will be no prophecies in them? No times whatsoever?

When we apply such broad strokes to the prophetic times, broader than Mrs. White herself did, I think we imperil our understanding of the truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I find it hard to believe Jesus allowed Ellen to endorse both Litch and Smith if they were wrong. He runs the risk of Ellen being branded a false prophet.

It appears you are reading the paragraph above as if Ellen was writing chronologically. You seem to be saying Jesus doesn't leave the sanctuary until “after” the plagues are poured out. However, if the following passages describe the same event, namely, Jesus leaving the sanctuary, isn't it clear the plagues fall after Jesus leaves the sanctuary?


If the plagues fall after Jesus leaves the sanctuary wouldn't it stand to reason, therefore, that the "number of days" begins the moment He leaves the sanctuary? Ellen wrote: "While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east, which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet."

You seem to mean that "a number of days" imply a few days and cannot be 3.5 years.

I'm not sure why you are applying what I said to the wicked. Maybe you're concerned how they will live to persecute people. As far as the wicked, haven't we already discussed in days/years past that there will be very few alive when Christ comes? But your quote said they are not universal. I have re-read those pages.


For some reason, that sure sounds familiar.

Would you be saying, "plunge" and "great", and "ruin more terrible" would come in just a few days?


Would you be saying, "will be continued", "inspire them", "malignant designs", is accomplished in just a few days?


Would you be saying, "urged", "finally", and "after a certain time", happens within a few days? That immediately after the plagues begin, lawmakers will instantly pass laws withing hours or days to allow others to kill people?


Would you be saying "stir up", "urge", "are resisting", can happen within a few days?


Would you say, "try them to the uttermost" is fully tried within a few days, that Satan wouldn't cry foul?

Would you likewise say, they are fully tested as to whether they would "yield" in just a few days?

Would you say, "hear the plottings" and "see the active working of rebellion" all happens within a few days? Maybe, if it happens at the time the plagues start, we still have access to the Internet and can hear and see it. But, would "intense desire" and "earnest yearning of soul" all come about to them within a few days?



Would you say, "do not cease their intercessions" is considered not ceasing when it's over with in a few days?

Would you say, "weariness, delay, and hunger" and being "severely tried" all happens within a few days? Would delaying within a few days be considered worth mentioning?

There's much more, but I'd say that you can do the rest.

I'm not sure that would be a proper conclusion as stated. Many suffer with infection for years.
How did it work in Egypt?
True. That's why, "While the wicked are dying from hunger and pestilence, angels will shield the righteous and supply their wants." But, as you quoted, it is not universal. Some do live.

So, that's how we determine who is right - go read it myself? I did read, and I have determined.
Thanks for the advice.

Daniel Jesus asks the same question even though He explained it to Daniel in Chapter 9? Did Jesus fail?

This doesn't define it nor distinguish between symbolic and literal time.

Neither does this.

And neither does this.


Well...at least some prophetic time closed in 1844. But you failed to show it being defined as literal or symbolic.
Do you think it did?
Do you think all ingredients in bread are not bread ingredients.

Just a note of caution. Besides being careful that one doesn't swap definitions on you, you must also keep in mind what Ellen White said versus what is claimed she said.

The plagues fall AFTER Christ's work in the Most Holy Place is completed, I agree with that.

But is the heavenly sanctuary closed at that point? Or does it only change in its work?

Where do the angels with the plagues come from?

Rev. 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,

Where do you think God the Father and Jesus are while the plagues are being poured out?

15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So we need to be careful --
The closing of Christ's work in the Most Holy Place denotes a "coming out" from that phase of the Sanctuary ministry.
Jesus steps out from between the "wrath of God" and the guilty sinners.
Probation closes at that point and trouble sweeps the earth.

Yet, there are still things going on in the Heavenly temple after the plagues are being poured out.

Christ must "come forth" as He prepares to come to earth on that glorious cloud. (a different event from closing His ministry)


I quoted more of the same paragraph by EGW to show the context. So I don't see this as speaking of Christ ending His intercessory ministry, it is speaking of Him mounting the glorious cloud dressed in royal robes to come to earth AFTER the announcement has been made concerning the day and hour of His coming. I see that it says it takes THE CLOUD a number of days to travel before it is actually here. From the time God delivers His people from the death decree till Jesus' CLOUD is sighted in the east will be a few days.
How many days, we don't know.



The "number of days' is refering to the CLOUD and that it will take a number of days to make its journey.
Some have speculated it takes seven days -- but again that is SPECULATION as well -- we don't know.

So yes, I do see it as being in sequence.

I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to see EGW's use of the phrase "Definite Prophetic Time" to mean ONLY setting a date for Christ's second coming.

You guys (Kland and Green C) seem to be talking in circles. It just doesn't make SENSE.

To me it simply sounds like a lot of double talk (making words mean different things from what they normally mean) to get around the admonishions not to set last day events into specific (definite) time settings.

Dedication,

Perhaps a few quotes would be in order. Just as we must use scripture to define scripture, Ellen White needs to be used to define her own terminology insofar as possible. Her terminology for "definite time" is clear.



This statement from "Early Writings" regards the pre-disappointment teaching of the day of Christ's Advent. Notice how Mrs. White uses the terms "definite time" and "prophetic periods" here? It is clear what she means. In fact, in this instance, she calls those who were pointing out texts such as Matthew 24:36 regarding NOT knowing the day and hour hypocrites, "unconsecrated shepherds," who are "covered with the blood of souls!"

What "day and hour" was being preached at that time? Was it a "day" for the plagues? No. Was it a "day" for probation's close? Sort of...if we count that the day of Jesus' coming would certainly close the probation for all. But most specifically, the "definite time" had but one object in mind--the Advent. Let's look at a few more statements.



In the above passage, Ellen White has done a complete about-face from the former position. Whereas before, teaching the "definite time" meant to be teaching a Heaven-sent message, and to oppose it meant grave error, she now says God has not given any such message to His disciples.

She takes the time in this second passage to identify two things for which we cannot know the "definite time": 1) the Second Coming; and 2) the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Let's look at some more quotes and see if she clarifies this further.



Time after time, she refers to the "definite time," to "time setting," etc. with but a singular object in mind--Christ's Second Coming. She repeatedly says we are not to set dates for this.



The entire passage above shows that the term "definite time" refers specifically to the Advent. That is the context of her message with regard to this term.



Anyone looking carefully at the above statement would agree that the "prophetic periods" which closed in 1844 are those which were used by the Millerites to determine the precise day of the Lord's return. Did those periods have a fulfillment at that time? Certainly. But not the expected one. And from that point onward, no "definite time" was to be in our message to the world regarding Christ's coming.

One more quote...


Just as Harold Camping's time of Christ's return failed, so will all such predictions of "definite time."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Kland, yes, I think all the details described in GC 613-641 can happen within the "number of days" Ellen specified.

Dedication, I believe the following passages make it clear Jesus will leave the sanctuary when probation closes. While en route to the east, which will take "a number days", the details described in GC 613-641 will unfold.

I find it hard to believe Jesus allowed Ellen to endorse both Litch and Smith if they were wrong. He runs the risk of Ellen being branded a false prophet.

Green Cochoa,
The 2300 days, 1335 days, 1290 days, 1260 days all are definite time periods, with a starting date and closing date, none reach beyond 1844. The Millerites were teaching definite time on all those prophetic timelines and had come to the conclusion that Christ would come at the end of these definite time periods.
Both the 2300 days and 1335 days reached the 1843-1844 date, as well as the less mentioned 2520 timeline.

The Millerites had all these dates on a chart showing that they had all run their course on definite time prior, and leading up to the second advent, which they ASSUMED would take place at the end point of those definite time prophecies.
The early 7th day Adventists continued to use those charts of definite time, but NOW it was to show the beginning of Christ's work in the Most Holy Place as beginning in 1844.

EGW says the teaching of the Millerites on definite time was CORRECT -- the charts were what God wanted, the mapping out of the timelines was correct.

So what was wrong. It was assuming Christ would appear in the clouds of glory at the end of those definite prophetic timelines.

Ever since 1844 people were re-interpreting those timelines to try and figure out how to make them reach Christ's actual second coming -- they were resetting the application of time and events leading up to Christ's second coming.

Those quotes by EGW are very plain -- she warns again and again and again against trying to set definite time for ANY of the events leading up to the second coming.



The prophetic periods have CLOSED in 1844!


Thus no one will be able to say, the Sunday law has passed, Christ will come within the next "x" number of years, or the Sunday law is agitated, it will pass in "x" number of years, thus Christ will come in the next "x" number years, etc, either.

All we know for sure is that the final events will be rapid ones. This trying to space them out according to the already fulfilled timelines can have even greater devasting effects on those who accept them as any of Campings predictions.

Do you really think Christ will already be on the cloud coming to earth throughout the whole of the endtime events?

Well it does fit some more radical explanations I've heard -- basically that Christ's coming will seem like a great astroid slowly approaching earth, it's approach terrifies the people of earth and prompts the radical decision to eliminate all opposition to the "world religion" in hopes that disaster will be stayed and God will be appeased.
As it comes nearer it turns all nature out of its course by its sheer magnetic and powerful force -- thus the events of the seventh plague. Then God announces the time when it will reach earth. God's people watch expectantly as it comes closer, now knowing it is the sign of Christ coming.

But as I mentioned -- that's a more radical interpretation?



To say Christ mounts the flaming cloud that carries Him to earth, at the beginning of the events in chapters 39-40 while she mentions it at the end, kind of throws the whole sequence of what she's saying out, unless it will be a very slowly approaching object.

If we take into consideration all the quotes I posted above it seems clear to me Ellen is saying several things will happen nearly simultaneously - 1) Jesus ceases mediating, 2) probation closes, 3) Jesus leaves the sanctuary bound for the east, a journey that will take "a number of days", 4) the angels begin pouring out the seven last plagues.

Ellen makes it clear the approach of Jesus is not detected until He arrives in the east as "a small black cloud", which is vastly different than a speeding, fiery asteroid. Ellen wrote:

Oh yes, I agree with that 100%!

I was only disagreeing with the arbitrary equating of a few days to the "number of days".

What do you think "bound for the east" means?

Actually you are quoting from one of the very FIRST visions EGW received on the matter. In that vision it all seemed to happen "simultaneously".

But over time God gave her more visions filling in the details.

I believe "east" is the direction in the Bible which represents political powers or government.

When Jesus comes again, it will not be as the humble servant/teacher as before. It will be as victorious and reigning King of kings. This is why He will appear in the East.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

That's a nice symbolic application but
I guess I always thought of it in a very literal way rather than a symbolic way. It has to do with the rotation of the earth.
The sun, moon and stars always "rise" in the east because the earth spins toward the east.

Earth rotates or spins toward the east, and that's why the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars all rise in the east and make their way westward across the sky. Suppose you are facing east - the planet carries you eastward as it turns, so whatever lies beyond that eastern horizon eventually comes up over the horizon and you see it!
If you face west, everything gradually disappears beyond the western horizon!

So I do not quite understand how Jesus has to first travel to the east any more than the sun has to travel to the east in order for us to see it coming up in the east. This traveling to the east (which according to some comments here apparently would have to take quite some time), before He approaches earth and becomes visible to God's people.

Dedication,

It is true that the earth rotates toward the East. But if you were to utilize the rotation of the earth as your sole criterion, you have only eliminated one of the four possible directions from which Christ might come.

If you look at some of the Bible texts, it would be rather logical for Him to appear from the North. But, instead, He chooses to come from the East. Not without a reason.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It says he comes from the east so that's really criterion enough as to which direction we will see Him coming.

But He also comes from OUTER space, not from within our atmosphere, so the rotation of the earth does determine from which direction we will see Him coming.

Perhaps I needed to be more clear.

If Jesus came from North or South, the rotation of the earth would have no effect. No matter how much the world turns, North stays in the same place, and likewise for South.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Did I suggest "a number of days" equals "a few days"? If I did I didn't mean to. At any rate, I suppose the expression "a number of days" can encompasses several days or more, but probably not as many as several weeks or more. I hope it lasts less than a week. Here's how she used the expression elsewhere:

I agree.

By it I mean Jesus leaves the sanctuary and begins making His way to the East. This journey will take "a number of days". Once He arrives in the East, the people of God will first recognize Him as a "small black cloud" which they will perceive as "the sign of the Son of Man". "While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days . . . ."

Let's see --
You believe Christ ends His work in the sanctuary, lays off his priestly garment and puts on his kingly robe and mounts the cloud that takes Him somewhere east of planet earth.

While this cloud journeys to that place in space with Jesus AND ALL THE ANGELS WITH HIM.
God in heaven (wait a minute -- I thought everyone mounted that cloud with Christ when it was time for the second coming?)

But appently not, for the seven angels with the plagues come out FROM God in the sanctuary in heaven and pour out their vials upong earth.

Revelation does not picture heaven empty at this point. There is conversation. The temple is filled with the glory of God.


How does that match with:

Maybe some more would be in order for you to present.

Often, she says things like, it was "not a few". I notice she did not say in this case
"While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took not a number of days"

Besides presenting to us other, "number of days", how would you expect her to say it if it did indeed take a number of days, oh, say over 1335 days?

Yes, Jesus lays off his priestly garments and puts on His kingly robe. How much time?
And took his place on the cloud. How much time?

What, besides this quote, makes you think there is not an amount of time between leaving the sanctuary and coming to the earth. Someone had quoted that Jesus' voice would tell when He would come. All that happening in a few days seems rather .... improbable to me, and it would still be true that all that she says is to happen can still happen in a number of days, such as 1335+.

Dedication, seems to me the Father remains in heaven while Jesus comes here to bring us home. Do you agree with what I wrote about the "number of days"?

I suspect she would have referred to a time period encompassing more than three years with an expression like "several years".

I find I'm not really in agreement with anyone on this thread.
I see the reference to the number of days from the announcement made by God concerning the time of the second coming reaching to the actual second coming. That announcement is made during the seventh plague, after God delivers His people from the death decree and shows the ten commandments from the sky.

I do not see them as refering to the beginning of the time of trouble.
They constitute only the time it takes from the announcement to that actual arrival which probably takes only a literal few days -- like 3, or 4 or 7 -- not thousands.

The parts I number in that paragraph follow the same sequence as in Great Controversy.
As to the activities of Christ, she is here focusing on Christ coming to deliver them, not on the close of probation. So she mentions Him putting on the kingly garments AFTER all the trouble as an introduction to His actual coming.

In other later and more detailed articles she places this earlier, however, since this is her first vision the emphases was on the time of trouble and the deliverance. To ignore the first part of the paragraph and insist on this aspect of Christ changing from priestly to kingly garments (which is "out of sequence" according to all the rest of her writing), as the key statement to determine a whole "time" study, well -- I can't agree with that.

Dedication, how do you understand the following sentence - "While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days"?

To me the expression simply means its describing time from the point when Christ leaves heaven till He is visibly seen coming over the eastern horizon by people of earth .



His leaving the holiest in this sentence is not the same moment as His leaving the mediatorial work before the ark.
For the paragraph clearly outlines the time of trouble taking place BEFORE.

Look at the sentence again --

While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet.

Q. What was taking place during those days while the cloud with Christ was traveling?
A. The synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints' feet.

Now ask -- when do the wicked recognize and ACKNOWLEDGE the persecuted people ARE actually God's saints?

Answer: Not till after God delivers His saints from the murderous designs of the wicked by a mighty revelation in the skies showing His commands and pronouncing His blessing and announcing the day of Christ's coming. An event that takes place during the SEVENTH plague.

Dedication, thank you for answering my question. However, the following quotes come to mind:


The sequence is:

1. The holy angels finish sealing and marking mankind.
2. Probation closes.
3. Jesus ceases mediating.
4. He dons His most kingly garments.
5. He leaves the sanctuary bound for the East.
6. The holy angels begin pouring out the plagues.
7. The great time of trouble begins.
8. A "number of days" later Jesus appears in the East.

But you have cut and pasted quotes from all over put them together, and then assigned a PARTIAL sentence with the words "a number of days" to cover all the "cut and pasted" quotes.



The paragraph in question says:



"While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet.

What, according to that sentence, was taking place WHILE the cloud was in transit?

In the only place you quoted her saying "a number of days" does she intend "a number of days" to mean a short time or a long time?

It seems clear to me that you intend that when Jesus leaves the sanctuary as mediator and therefore withdraws His restraining Spirit which causes the four winds to blow allowing the plagues to be poured out,
He is immediately on his way to earth.

Is that supported?

She wrote - "the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet." Are we to assume nothing else will happen during that period of time?

Yes. Please see quotes posted above.

Yes, -- it's WHILE the cloud travels that the synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet.

They most certainly were NOT acknowledging the saints as God's people during the time of trouble prior to God's dramatic deliverance and announcement.

Dedication, I cannot help concluding the other quotes I posted above make it clear the "number of days" begins the moment Jesus leaves the sanctuary.

So I guess we must agree to disagree.

I must be dense. I read them again and I cannot find where it says He is immediately on his way to earth when he leaves the sanctuary. Could you please point it out?

Here are the quotes:


Here is what John wrote about it:


When Jesus stops mediating in the most holy place, He will don His most kingly garments and begin the ministry of wrath - "he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." There is no hint or indication Jesus is idle between ceasing His work in the most holy place and beginning His work of punishment and destruction on earth.

But isn't your position doing just that -- showing that Jesus is idle (traveling on a cloud to some place in the east) for a number of days while here on earth the time of trouble begins and God Who is still in the heavenly sanctuary sends out the seven angels with plagues?

I can't see it either -- that Jesus is on His way to earth immediately after He finishes mediating.
The quotes all say the time of trouble begins when Jesus finishes His work of mediating.

He is still in heaven during the time of trouble, not idle, but active in sending out angels to watch over the persecuted saints, and sending out the plagues on the persecutors.

It's not until God announces the time and hour of Jesus coming, (an announcement made during the seventh plague), that Jesus begins His journey to earth which takes a number of days during which time the Synagogue of satan acknowledge that God loves those they had tried to kill.

Dedication, you may very well be right. It is clear the angels are dispatched from the most holy place to pour out the seven last plagues. John wrote:


It also seems clear Jesus, as commander-in-chief, leaves heaven with His army of angels commanding them as they pour out the seven last plagues. John makes it clear all this begins to happen the moment they leave heaven. "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." There is nothing to suggest Jesus remains in heaven while the angels go forth and pour out the plagues.

Could you please point it out where it says He is immediately on his way to earth when he leaves the sanctuary.

There is nothing to suggest Jesus doesn't remain in heaven while the angels go forth to release the four winds.