Secret Rapture: Fact Or Fiction?

Daryl, are you differentiating between what the tribulation is and what the Time of Trouble is? Aren't they different terms for the same thing?

I am using the word "tribulation" to which I should restate as the "seven years of tribulation" solely for the meaning they attach to it, and the words "time of trouble" for the meaning we attach to it.

Does anybody know what the former means to them and what the latter means to us?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited October 14, 2001).]

Ah! I'm with ya, Daryl.

Yes!

They have an interesting but false theology regarding the prophetic events leading up to the Secret Rapture, then beyond the Secret Rapture, leading to the return of Christ and the consequential 1,000 years of peace on this earth.

They place the 70th week of Daniel's 70 Week Prophecy into the future and apply all the first conditional prophecies regarding Israel to the time of the end. It is interesting to see that they use the day for a year in that they see the last week or seven days as seven years which is where they get the seven years of tribulation from.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

So, they place all of the 70 weeks at the end of time?

For some reason I thought they applied only the 70th week to the end of time (at tribulation), but the first 69 weeks in the past. But I must admit this was a bit of an assumption on my part ... just an impression I got and not something definite.

Any idea why they put this prophecy at the end of time?

[This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited October 15, 2001).]

That is what I said in my post, however, I may not have said it clear enough.

They do place the first 69 weeks in the past, however, for some strange reason, they place the last week, the 70th week, into the future.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

There is a misunderstanding regarding the manner (how) and time of Christ's coming for Christian believers.

The major proponents are Baptists, Pentecostals and some Evangelical groups.

Rapture Theology is a grave misunderstanding of the events of Daniel 9:24-27 which focus is on the baptism and anointing of Jesus, the death of Christ in the middle of the 70th week putting an end to the sacrificial system, and the Gospel then going to the Gentiles, who now, along with individual Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, make up God's new covenant people, Spiritual Israel.

This misunderstanding, or new theology, is based on a combination of two belief theories:

1 - Rapture Theology.
2 - Dispensationalism.

1 - The Rapture Theology - originated with a young girl named Margaret MacDonald, who in 1830 in Scotland during a tongues session claimed to have been told by God that the Christian church would be taken secretly to heaven so that they would not have to be on the earth during the plagues. John Darby, an American, founder of the Plymouth Brethren church journeyed to Scotland to interview her. From there he added her Rapturist views to his Dispensational views.

2 - Dispensationalism - John Darby taught that history was divided into seven distinct dispensations or periods of time.

They are the Dispensation of:
(1) Innocence (Adam and Eve before sin),
(2) Conscience,
(3) Human Government,
(4) Promise,
(5) Law (the period of the Jewish nation),
(6) the Church (which we are presently in),
(7) the Kingdom (the re-emergence of the Dispensation of the Jews).

In the Mosiac (Law) period, God demands obedience to the law of Moses.

In the present (Church) dispensation, God requires acceptance of salvation by faith.

These views were then taken up by Schofield and placed as reference notes in the Schofield Reference Bible.

Now we know how it started and developed from there.

More later on what it teaches.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited October 20, 2001).]

The Secret Rapture Theology teaches that the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, which the Bible states began in 27 AD at the baptism of Jesus and ending 7 years later with the stoning of Stephen in 34 AD, has not yet taken place, as it is still in the future.

This teaching that the 70th week is yet future is obviously cut off from the 69 weeks of the prophecy and is transported to our day, actually beyond our day, as they look at it as still being a future fulfillment.

They teach in error that this 70th week will begin when the Christian church is snatched way secretly with the Holy Spirit just before the plagues begin to fall.

They teach that the Dispensation of the Kingdom (of the Jews) begins for 7 years. 144,000 Jews are converted and begin to preach the gospel of a "second chance."

They teach that Jesus will come back visibly with His church at the end of the 7 years.

They teach that the Anti-Christ (a religious political figure) makes a covenant with the Jewish nation for 3 1/2 years. He appears good at first, but reveals himself in the middle of the 7 years as the anti-Christ, as he begins persecuting the Jews. God then pours out his judgements, the 7 last plagues.

At the end of the 70th week or 7 year period, Jesus returns visibly with his church. The anti-Christ is destroyed along with all the wicked.

A large multitude of Jews and others will have been converted to Christ since the Secret Rapture, and will make up Christ's kingdom during the earthly millennium. (Notice that these conversions take place without the aid of the Holy Spirit!) Christ will then rule literal Jerusalem from David's throne.

Any questions or thoughts on what they teach???

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

My question is about what we teach. Care to give a brief outline in a nutshell of the SDA interpretation of the major things mentioned? After all, if a non-Adventist accesses this site, he might want to know what the differences are. I also would struggle with the systematic presentation as it has been a long time since I've studied the subjects. I'm being lazy, but I also wouldn't know where to begin.

In a nutshell?

I don't know if that is possible!

I will give it a try almost completely from memory, however, one point at a time per post. This will allow for any discussion or clarification on each point.

First of all, the 70th week is not in the future as it is a connected part of the 70 week prophecy rather than being detached from it.

The 70th week, 7 days, or 7 years is all about the last week of the time for the nation of Israel to get their act together beginning with the ministry of Jesus Christ from the time he was baptized by John the Baptist in 27 AD to His crufixion in the midst of the week, 3 1/2 years after this baptism, to the stoning of Stephen another 3 1/2 years later in 34 AD. This 70th week was completely fulfilled, and on time.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I got some excellent material on both the "Left Behind/Secret Rapture" and the false interpretations regarding Israel in the prophecies of the final events by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi. I could send a copy to whoever has an interest in the material (no charge). My e-mail address is: azeniltogb@aol.com.
Thank you.

If you want to go directly to bro. Bacchiocchi's site where he has excellent material on this question (besides his defense of the Sabbath in the face of some former SDA pastors challenging our convictions on that) his address is:

www.biblicalperspectives.com

See especially his "Endtime Issues Newsletters" ## 76 on.

As I was studying Daniel 9 I came to the conclusion that the rapture tradition is one of the little horns attacks on the sanctuary doctrine. The 70 weeks starts the 2300 day prophecy. The 2300 day prophecy and the 70 weeks starts at the same time in 457 BC. All of the 70 week prophecy, as well as the 2300 day prophecy are dedicated to the sanctuary service. 457 to 27 AD where the anointing and washing of Jesus, the High Priest and the sacrifice take place. 3.5 years later in 30 AD the Lamb of God is sacrificed and the earthly sanctuary service come to an end. In 34 AD the gospel goes out to the gentiles. We have 1810 years left of the holy place ministry and when the 2300 day prophecy is completed the Most Holy Place ministry begins to operate.

In all this the goal of the little horn is to keep these truths, and the specificity of it, away from God's people. One of the earmarks of God's people is to be clear, and forceful on the sanctuary doctrine. This is the true fulfillment of the the prophecies in Daniel. Getting the dates correct is important but the revelation of Jesus in His ministry is more important yet.

I thought that I would share a bit of up to date information from other forrum's on what modern "rapturists" believe. From what I can gather no-one uses the term "secret" with the rapture anymore, just as they no longer use the term "once saved... always saved". The term now is "eternal security in Christ". Evidently these terms are much more up to date. This last term makes anyone who does not accept the teaching of "eternal security" appear to have a lack of trust in God's ability to save.

As far as the rapture goes here is something that I could hardly believe has any possibility of using the Bible for it's origin. I cut and pasted this from a very pro Pre-trib believer...

Quote:

The Millennium is the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth after He returns at the 2nd coming (Rev. 20:1-10). During this time, Jesus will set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem and people will continue to live on earth until the earth is destroyed at the end of the millennium (2 Pet. 3:10-13, Rev. 20:11). Many people wrongly believe that the earth is destroyed with Jesus returns. The 2nd coming is not the end of the world, but the end of the age--the end of this time period as we know it (Matt. 24:3).

Some people believe the Rapture and the Second Coming are the one and same event. But if that is true, we've got a big problem. The problem is…who will populate the Millennium? Consider the following:

How do multitudes of people get into the Millennium?
Only a few will enter into the millennial kingdom (Matt. 24:22)

"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up year to year to worship the King." (Zech. 14:16). This verse indicates that most of the earth's population will be destroyed before Jesus returns.

By the end of the millennium, there will be multitudes on earth.

Rev. 20:8 tell us "the number of them will be like the sand of the sea."

If only a few people enter the millennium and there are multitudes by the end, how did all those people get there?

How do lost people get in the Millennium?
Only saved people enter the millennium.

At the Second Coming, only the sheep (saved people) enter into the kingdom, while the goats (lost people) are cast into hell. See Matt. 25:31-46.

By the end of the millennium, there will be many lost people.

At the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, Satan is loosed from the abyss and deceives the nations on the earth, who try to overthrow the throne of Jesus. These are obviously lost people. Zechariah 14:16-19 tell us that during the millennium people will be required to go to Jerusalem once a year to worship the King (Jesus). For those who refuse to go, punishment will come upon them.

Why would a saved person refuse to worship Jesus? Obviously, saved people will look forward to worshiping Jesus. But these are lost people. How did they get in the millennium?

The answer is simple. These are people born during the millennium!

How can people be born after the Second Coming?
Resurrected people can't beget children.

Jesus said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven." People with resurrected bodies won't be able to marry or have children. At the Rapture, every Christian will receive a resurrected body, therefore we can't be involved in repopulating the earth. So, the Rapture can't occur at the same time as the 2nd coming because no one would be available in natural bodies to repopulate the earth.

Children will be born during the millennium.

Only people in their natural, unresurrected bodies are able to have children. Because the earth's population will be drastically reduced because most people will be killed (or raptured) before Jesus returns, the earth will need to be repopulated. Jesus referred to the millennial kingdom on earth as the "regeneration" (see Matt. 19:28) which means "repopulation."

Many children will be born on earth during this 1,000 year of Christ (Zech. 8:1-5, Isa. 65:20-23, Ezek. 47:22, Rev. 20:7-9). Zechariah 14:16 tells us that those who refuse to worship Jesus in Jerusalem come from "the families of the earth," indicating these are the children and grandchildren of those who entered the millennium.

Who are the parents of these children?
The parents are those people saved after the Rapture who are alive at the Second Coming!

As a matter of fact, this is why the Rapture and the 2nd Coming of Christ cannot be the same event. If the Rapture happens at the same time as the Second Coming, there would be no people to repopulate the earth because all saved people would have resurrected bodies. We also know only saved people enter the millennium, so these believers must be those people saved after the Rapture who are alive at the Second Coming. God kept them alive through the Tribulation Period so they would be able to repopulate the earth during the millennium.

Therefore, the Rapture serves 2 purposes: 1) For the church to receive our resurrection bodies and home in heaven 2) To provide a group of people to populate the earth after the Second Coming.

Well there you have it...Right from your Bible... ... I have become friends with someone who used to believe this but has now accepted the Sabbath. He has been rejected by his Church and family. They view him as in rebellion against God and practically beg him to come back to Christ. To come out of this belief system is as much of a miracle as conversion.

Blessings
Forever His

Thank you, Forever His. That was really informative. Makes you shake your head, doesn't it?

My son told me he read the following story on the net. He said the site claimed it was true.

A husband and wife were driving on the highway (in the US somewhere?) when the wife said she could see Jesus and the disciples. The husband looked, and sure enough, there they were in front of them. The wife, believing it was the rapture, stood up through the sun roof in their car, with her arms up, ready to meet the Lord. She fell out, and was killed. What they saw was a display being carried on the back of a truck.

False beliefs can be dangerous for other reasons.

Hi, nice to meet you zyph. That is an amazing story. Sad to say but it shows how our emotions can (and will) deceive us. Here is another post from the pre-trib believers. I almost hesitate to share this on an Adventist site, however most of the information that we have previously been taught in reference to what "they believe" is no longer pertinent. In order to know what they believe and therefore have an intelligent answer we should at least know what they believe.

Quote: by Thomas Ice

One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for
pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit's role to the church and the
tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2
Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit
through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before
the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well.
If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for
pretribulationism.

I have been building a theological case for the pre-trib rapture. I
presented the four foundational issues: consistent literal interpretation,
premillennialism, futurism, and a distinction between God's plan for Israel
and the church. Next, I brought forth six reasons for pretribulationism:
contrasts between comings, an interval needed between comings, imminency,
nature of the tribulation, nature of the church, and finally the work of the
Holy Spirit in this article. In future installments I will present some
concluding arguments and show the practical implications that flow from
pretribulationism.

The Holy Spirit as Restrainer
Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back
until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the
indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ
during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since
"the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the
Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot
occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the
pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer
is referring to the Holy Spirit.

I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the
restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present
church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of
believers. This cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work explains
the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer"
is in the neuter gender (to katéchon) while in verse seven "the restrainer"
is masculine (o katechôn). The significance of this grammar and how it
relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas
below.

Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
After surveying various interpretations of the passage, Dr. Thomas
concludes:

To one familiar with the Lord Jesus' Upper Room Discourse, as Paul
undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the
Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether
the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the
Spirit's personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see
John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer
with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. The special
presence of the Spirit as the indweller of saints will terminate abruptly at
the parousia as it began abruptly at Pentecost. Once the body of Christ has
been caught away to heaven, the Spirit's ministry will revert back to what
he did for believers during the OT period . . . . His function of
restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will
cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah
(Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the
Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon
("what is holding back") was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the
Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal
attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).1

Dr. Gerald Stanton cites six reasons why this passage should be understood
to refer to the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry through the church.

(1) By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other
possibilities fall short of meeting the requirements of one who is to hold
in check the forces of evil until the manifestation of Antichrist. . . .

(2) The Wicked One is a personality and his operations include the realm of
the spiritual. The restrainer must likewise be a personality and of a
spiritual order, to resist the wiles of the Devil and to hold Antichrist in
check until the time of his revealing. . . .

(3) To achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a
member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger
than Satan. . . .

(4) This present age is in a particular sense the "dispensation of the
Spirit," for He works in a way uncommon to other ages as an abiding Presence
within the children of God. . . .

(5) The work of the Spirit since His advent has included the restraint of
evil. The Spirit is God's righteous Agent for the age, and there are many
reasons to be grateful for His restraining hand upon this world's iniquity.
None but the Lawful One could restrain this world's iniquity. . . .

(6) It is not difficult to establish that although the Spirit was not
resident on earth during Old Testament days, whatever restraint was exerted
was by the Spirit. . . . (Isa. 59:19) . . . The wickedness of Noah's day and
the fact that life went on as usual in blindness to impending destruction is
used of the Spirit in vivid portrayal of careless and wicked men upon whom
Tribulation judgment shall fall. . . .

In light of this Scriptural parallel, it is exceedingly significant that in
the days immediately preceding the destruction of the flood, the restraining
work of the Spirit is emphasized. . . .2

Present Work of the Holy Spirit in the Church
The church began on the Day of Pentecost with a visitation of the Holy
Spirit as recorded in Acts 2. The church ends at the rapture with the
translation of living saints and the resurrection of those who have died in
Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Until the rapture God is gathering out from the
Gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15:14) and combining them with the
elect remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:5) into one new body called the church
(Eph. 2:11-3:13). This great task is accomplished by a unique ministry of
the Holy Spirit only during the church age called the baptism of the Holy
Spirit. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit were we all
[Jewish and Gentile Believers] baptized into one body, whether Jews or
Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one
Spirit." This work of the Holy Spirit is only for the church. Therefore, it
is not surprising that since the tribulation cannot start until after the
church is completed and taken to heaven in the rapture that the man of
lawlessness is restrained through the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth
indwelling church age Believers. This current work of the Holy Spirit is
unique to the church. Dr. John Walvoord explains,

We search the prophetic Scriptures in vain for any reference to baptism of
the Spirit except in regard to the church, the body of Christ (1 Cor.
12:13). While, therefore, the Spirit continues a ministry in the world in
the tribulation, there is no longer a corporate body of believers knit into
one living organism. There is rather a return to national distinctions and
fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium.3

The Work of the Holy Spirit in the Tribulation
Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of
the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that we do not believe
that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not
what we are saying. We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and
active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be
carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all
members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy
Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the
elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be
parto f the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid
tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit
will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for
their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the
two witnesses of Revelation 11.

Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the
current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct
to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the
tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during
the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses,
that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease
certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to
come onto the stage of history.

Endnotes
1 Robert L. Thomas, "2 Thessalonians," in The Expositor's Bible Commentary,
Vol. 11, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1978), pp. 324-25.

2 Gerald B. Stanton, Kept From The Hour, 4th. ed., (Miami Springs, FL:
Schoettle Publishing Company, 1991), pp. 99-102.

3 John F. Walvoord, The Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing Co.,
1958), p. 231.

My observance, after a year of getting to know some of these people (online) is that what they say makes a lot of sense to them. For example. Eternal security. Many love John 3:16 to prove this... If we believe.. and receive "eternal" life there is no way that we could loose it if indeed it is "eternal" life. "Eternal" life is everlasting, and if you receive it... how could you loose it? In their view to question this only reveales our lack of faith.

Daryl Fawcett Wrote: There are many in more than one denomination that believe in the Secret Rapture.
Is the Secret Rapture fact or fiction, a true or a false doctrine?

Why is it that they believe in the Secret Rapture in the first place?

What texts do they use to promote such an idea?

They believe that Paul taught this doctrirne and that it consistent with all the scriptures, including Daniel, and going right on through to Revelation. They believe that Jesus Himself taught this doctrine. Mat. ch 13 + 24 etc. They use an amazing amount of texts now days to support different aspects of this idea. They also use a whole lot of supposition's to fill in the unanswered questions.

If there is a Bible truth, it is for sure that there will be at least one counterfit. Satan has had time to refine this one, and has been using it very effectively. God does have a Truth that will be proclaimed to the world, and it is a priveledge, and such a Blessing to be a part of that work.

Blessings.

Forever His

Hi Everyone,

A few years ago I listened to a cassette tape sermon by an Auatralian preacher about the real reason behind the rapture. But I dont have the tape anymore and dont remember who the preacher was or even how I could get the tape again. I also cant remember exactly what it said.

The thing I do remember however, was that he said it was a known fact that the Jesuits actually invented the rapture theory. The reason given was that the Catholic Church wanted to cover up the truth about that they are the beast of Revelation.

Somebody was asking me about the rapture the other day and I shared that with them but does anyone have any information on this? Has anyone else ever heard that idea about the Catholic Church and the rapture? Im not sure I understand how the rapture idea would cover up the fact that in Revelation the Catholic Church was the Beast. I cant remember.

Claudia

I've looked at the "Left Behind" forums, and man...a lot of different interpretations there, mostly based on personal opinions. Many people there use Scripture to back up their preconceived notions, it would appear; instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture, and reading it for what it plainly says.

Pastor Steve Wohlberg has a good site on the subject, http://www.truthleftbehind.com/
He's been on 3ABN talking about this, and knows his stuff, especially on the subject of "who constitutes the Israel of God", a subject that confuses most evangelical Christians who think it still means the literal Jews 'after the flesh'. That belief leads rapture theorists to expect that a literal temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, coupled with their (mis)understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Also there are some good pamphlet articles at the Amazing Facts site:

"The Secret Rapture", by Joe Crews -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/catalog/pb/bk-sr.html

"Rendezvous in Space", by Joe Crews -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/catalog/pb/bk-ris.html

"Anything But Secret", by Doug Batchelor -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/ourministry/news/anything_but_secret.html

And it's my understanding that the 'futurist' school of prophetic interpretation was thought up by the Jesuit Ribera during the "counter-Reformation", in an effort to counteract the Reformers' identification of the Little Horn of Daniel 7, and the Beast of Revelation 13, with the Papacy. Ribera said all those prophecies applied to some power that wouldn't appear until the very end of time, and so they couldn't possibly apply to the Papacy. And now most Protestants believe that!

The two-phase 'secret rapture' part of the equation came about as a result of a supposed prophecy given by a young lady in a Scottish church around 1830; this teaching went on to appear in the study notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and it took off from there.

It's amazing how many Christians accept this teaching completely, unquestioningly. Before I was an Adventist, I went to the Methodist church, and had some Baptist friends who taught the 'rapture' theory. (One of them went on to become a Baptist preacher.) I argued with the Adventist pastor who came to town holding crusades, mainly over the 'rapture' theory and the state of the dead. The more I studied trying to prove him wrong, the more I saw that he was right, and that what I'd been taught had no support in the Bible. SDAs know the Scriptures better than anyone on earth, I believe; and thank the Lord for it!

Welcome, John, to Maritime SDA OnLine!

I also went to the Bible to prove how wrong the Seventh-day Adventists are and ended up becoming a Seventh-day Adventist instead.

Always interesting to read about those people coming to Adventism because they checked it out and found it air-tight! On lady was baptised and shortly later left the church, all I ever got out of her at college was that "she just couldn't believe certain things the church taught."

I'll tell you, I wish she were more open to conversation - I was burning to know what the problem was so I could talk more about it - that she was maybe missing a certain element or misunderstood something... I may never know. I just have to pray.

As far as Raptures go... it just seems that people love security. A Safety-net if you will. Who wouldn't like to know that if they miss the boat that leaves at an unknown time, there will be another boat some time very shortly after it.
All you really have to do is kick back and wait for people to get on the first boat - then you've got a 1-7 years to "get your act together" and be good and get on Jesus' Buddy List.

And therein lies the danger. It's an excuse for some to not want to be truly devoted. But that doesn't lump everyone in a nice, neat package. Like the driver falling out of her sunroof, some are people who DO love Jesus (or sure think they do!) Isn't it rather prideful to think that one denomination is above another and gets a "Get out of Tribulation Free!" Card while the others get to suffer it out. They get to live happily and bear lots of children while the rest of the world waits for Jesus' arrival? That Jesus would favour them other other people who love and serve Him?

I would think that Jesus, in ultimate fairness, gives everyone the same chance. One life to live. You choose your master. When He comes, you get to stay forever with your choice - except staying with satan means also sharing his fate. "Forever" in this case, means being reduced to ashes.....

I was all set to ramble on further. I think I'll just end here. Happy Sabbath everyone! God bless...

==========

Icon correction only.

[ May 31, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

We are beginning a Bible Study on this tonight at our weekly Prayer & Bible Study Meeting.

In order to recognize a counterfeit dollar bill, be it a $1.00 bill, or a $5.00 bill, or a $10.00 etc., we first need to know what the true dollar bill looks like. How can you tell a counterfeit, if you don't even know what the true one looks like?

Our focus will be to first study what the Bible truly has to say about the 490 day prophecy (70 week prophecy), and then to compare it to the counterfeit or false doctrine of this prophecy, particularly on the 70th week, the last 7 days of the 490 day prophecy.

Dedreic Grecian, a member of MSDAOL, (His wife Lorelei is also a member of MSDAOL), will be leading out in this study. I don't believe they presently have an internet connection, therefore, I plan to share here what goes on there.

Whenever time permits, I also plan to share from what we have already discussed on this thread. That may not happen until we get further on into the study.

Early on in this discussion someone asked about where all this can come from. After reading Hal Lindseys book "The Late Great Planet Earth" is discovered that they start the prophecy of Daniel 9 NOT with Ezra 7 but with Neh 2 or 3 thus pushing the date from 457 BC to a later date. THEN they have to do some heavy math gymnastics to get to the time period of Christ. They use instead of God announcing His arrival at His baptism they start with His entry into Jerusalem. From there the rest of the 70 weeks CAN'T fit so they then justifiy from here the rapture.

I have always wondered what need there would be for the resurrection; with the "secret," but not so secret rapture.

Whenever we see some counterfeit in a given situation, it can always be traced to a fundamental lack of insight, with some portion of the Scripture text itself.

It is also very unfortunate with the secret rapture doctrine, how it's adherents "comfort one another," with those words, of how the righteous will be secretly taken up to heaven.

I am referring to the text of 1 Thes.4:13-18. Secret rapture adherents seem to have gotten this text very confused.

At the very centre of this confusion is the Word "caught up." Verse 17 reflects on the fact that both the righteous living, and the righteous dead will be "caught up," TOGETHER, to meet Jesus in the air.

"Caught up" has more than one possible meaning in the original language. "Harpazo" and "Klepto" in the original language, are both sometimes translated as "caught up." (meaning "raptured").

"Klepto" refers to secrecy, whereas "Harpazo" means "take to one's self...not secret. It is "Harpazo" that is used in 1 Thes.4:17. Only in this context, would "caught up" be understood as intended. If it was "klepto" or secret in nature, then texts like Rev.1:7 would have to be null and void.

"Every eye shall see Him..." is not a secret; and Jesus tells us to comfort one another with the Words of the Bible, in the intended context of the author of this passage.

We started with what was considered as the most important secret rapture text: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One is taken and the other is left behind.

quote: Daryl Fawcett

It is interesting to note that those who believe in the Secret Rapture will read this one verse (ignoring the surrounding verses ... i.e. the context), and they make two assumptions. Those assumptions are:

The one left behind ...

1. ... does not notice what is taking place, except that someone suddenly vanished
2. ... is left alive

But the context of given in that chapter and other scriptures that describes the same event does not support these two assumptions.

Why do they read into that verse more than there is? This leaves them with having to believe in two Second Comings; one secret, and one visible and noisy.

But Christ did not tell us that He would come again and again to take us to be with Him. He simply said:

... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
	John 14:3

Good points Den Borg

Part Two

To further explain “harpazo:” This word is used in the sense of

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

“Harpazo” is anything but “secretive” in it’s nature. It means to literally “seize upon with force,” which is in stark difference to “klepto” meaning “to steal away secretly.” “Harpazo, is referring to an open act of violence.

Although “harpazo” is usually used to denote another person’s property being robbed; it is not used exclusively so. Sometimes it is used in a general sense for forcibly seizing upon, snatching away, or taking to one’s self. Note the following texts for examples of uses of “harpazo”:

Mat.13:19: “catcheth away”

John 6:15: “take Him by force”
John 10:12 – “catcheth them”
28 – “pluck them out”
29 – “pluck them out”

Acts 23:10 – “take him by force”

Jude 23 – “pulling them out of”

Now, there are some texts where “harpazo” is used particularly for “rapture:”

Acts 8:39 – “caught away”

2 Cor.12:2 – “caught up”
4 – “caught up”

1 Thes.4:17 – “shall be caught up” (together)

Rev.12:5 – “was caught up”

“Harpazo” is used to show use of force against someone in the following text:

Mat.11:12 – “take it by force.”

It is of course important to also reference this word “klepto” and how the Bible writers used it:

Mat. 6:19 – talking about where thieves “break through and steal” (secretively), see also Mat.6:20 – where thieves do not break through or “klepto,” (steal).

Mat.19:18 – in talking about the ten commandments says: “Thou shalt not steal.” (this is not always referring to something in the open that everyone sees).

Jo.10:10 – mentions a thief breaking in to “klepto” or “steal.”

Rom.13:9 – thou shalt not “klepto” or “steal.”

Eph.4:28 – “let him that “klepto” (stole), “klepto” (steal) no more.”

I have a large book in my library here at home. It has 21 lengthy, in depth essays by the worlds most prominent secret rapture scholars. Each essay is done by a different scholar. Someone gave me this book years ago, trying to convert me to the secret rapture proposals; but I think it has only served to make me see the truth more clearly.

I have several lines of thought, from this book, and other sources, that would likely be very constructive to pursue within this topic…so let me start with this one:

I will be referring to some notes taken from one of the authors of this book, with the name of Edward E Hindson.

I am going to act as if I am a secret rapture proponent for the next few posts, to better illustrate how truth can be twisted, (I have been approached this way by secret rapture adherents), and to see how complex this topic can get.

But, the other thing that I believe this will accomplish, is to set the truth before others, in much clearer lines. So please remember, in the next few posts, I will be stating my case for the secret rapture. I have studied into this because of various relatives or friends who believe it:

“First of all, I think that it is really wrong for you to believe that the rapture is NOT a secret. Why do I say this? Because, the rapture, and the return, are two separate aspects of the same event. In other words, the rapture and the return, are two aspects of the second coming of Christ Jesus, OUR Lord.

Is there a difference between the rapture, and the second coming? Yes! We pretribulationists have seen some really clear, Biblical evidence, for making distinctions between these two events. Many of you opponents of the pretrib doctrines, can’t see these distinctions even though I can show you overwhelming Biblical evidence that supports a pretribulational rapture – that is, a secret coming of Christ for His people.

Now, I know what all you amillenial people think…I know that in 1 Thes.4:17, there is indeed the word “harpazo” used for the phrase caught up. So, we are definitely agreed on the fact that there is a rapture. What we are not agreed upon, is WHEN will this rapture occur?

Many of you guys argue against the secret rapture, on the basis that it is really hard to conceive of what it might be like for thousands of people to suddenly disappear! Your many joking remarks about those raptured, smacking their heads on the ceiling, false teeth being left behind somewhere, people in the middle of changing their clothes and being secretly wisked up to meet Jesus naked…and car accidents all over the place…pandemonium city! But have hear all these jokes before. They are not Biblical proof of anything.

So, OK…When will the secret rapture occurr? And what is it’s relationship to Christ, at the time of His second coming? If I can prove that the church will be “caught up” into heaven; and that this “gathering together” (2 Thes.2:1), is a separate event from the return of Christ in judgment, then I will have already, more than adequately made my case, and proved Seventh Day Adventists, along with some other Christian groups, as wrong in trying to dismiss the pretrib as false doctrine. Right?

All I need to do now is to show how the dissimilarities between rapture passages, and second coming passages, are significant enough to demonstrate that they are indeed two separate aspects of the same events. In the next post, I will start to deal with relevant Bible texts to prove my point.”

The most definitive texts, to my mind:

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luke 17:26-30.

No room there for anything besides destruction on the very same day.

What bothers me most about the rapture doctrine is that it is so often associated with the time-line promoted by the Sunday-worshipping churches. They have the prophetic week at the end of the 2300 days. They believe that the rebuilding of the temple is future, and that Jesus is going to descend upon Jerusalem and usher in the millenium here on earth.

They obviously believe in the biblical day for a year principle, however, they still confuse things by this two thousand some odd years gap doctrine in which they place the 70th week (7 days/7 years) two thousand some odd years into the future from the time of Christ from which there isn't anything in the Bible to back up such a thing.

DavidTBattler:

I like your idea of role playing. What would you think about using the Quote feature to supply your arguments and comments from "Secret Sam", your alter ego? This way, they would be indented and set apart from your other comments.

Here are my comments concerning Secret Sam's arguments.

First of all, I think that it is really wrong for you to believe that the rapture is NOT a secret. Why do I say this? Because, the rapture, and the return, are two separate aspects of the same event. In other words, the rapture and the return, are two aspects of the second coming of Christ Jesus, OUR Lord. Is there a difference between the rapture, and the second coming? Yes! We pretribulationists have seen some really clear, Biblical evidence, for making distinctions between these two events. ... ... Now, I know what all you amillenial people think ... I know that in 1 Thes.4:17, there is indeed the word "harpazo" used for the phrase caught up. So, we are definitely agreed on the fact that there is a rapture. What we are not agreed upon, is WHEN will this rapture occur?

quote: Secret Sam - DavidTBattler's alter ego

Secret Sam's comments are problematic right from the start, for the following reasons:

1. Self Contradiction - In the first paragraph, the rapture and the second coming are described as two aspects of the same event. However, in the second paragraph, they are described as two distinct events. And then, in the very last paragraph, the rapture and second coming are once again described as a single event.

   This is at best, double speak.

2. Language Redefinition - Secret Sam seems to acknowledge the point about the use of the word "harpazo", but immediately ignores the true definition of the word. He tries to cast a "secrecy" meaning into the word which does not belong. I would pose the question, "If the Bible writer was trying to describe a secret rapture, why would the Bible writer use the word 'harpazo' which clearly means anything but secret?!"

3. Wrong Assumptions - Secret Sam simply states his personal opinion that he believes us wrong for not believing that the ratpure is secret, but fails to present Biblical evidence that supports a secret rapture. Thereafter in his commentary, Secret Sam wrongfully assumes that we are all in agreement that the rapture is secret, simply because of his say-so. For example, he stated, "So, OK…When will the secret rapture occurr?"

   Before we discuss when the secret rapture will occur, we must first show from the Bible that the rapture is indeed a secret event.

Only after these descrepancies are resolved, are we then able to carry the discussion on to additional points.

What are your thoughts on these comments I just presented?

They obviously believe in the biblical day for a year principle, however, they still confuse things by this two thousand some odd years gap doctrine in which they place the 70th week (7 days/7 years) two thousand some odd years into the future from the time of Christ from which there isn't anything in the Bible to back up such a thing.
	quote: Daryl Fawcett

It is amazing that they can think that way, isn't it?! That a 490 year prophecy would take over 2,000 years to complete!

Is that not a sign of a false prophet, if the prophecy does not come true as predicted?! But distorting the prophecy's time table is the only way they can try to make it fit the interpretation they want to believe.

It would be like a physic (sp?) predicting that a certain man would die in 2 years. But the man is still alive until 50 years later. If the physic was asked why his prediction did not come true, would they believe in the physic's ability if the physic replied:

You see, at the end of the first year, I stopped the prophetic time clock. It did not start up again until exactly one year before that man's death.

So, you see! My prediction of his death in 2 years came true, exactly as predicted!!!

It just does not make any sense to me!

Very Kool idea DenBorg!

I will have to be away from here a few days as I am licking my wounds from a cycling accident earlier today.

We still had a very nice Sabbath!

"See" you soon.

"Secret Sam"

by the way...your point #3 is true, but I had been planning to supply the Scripture in the next post. I just ran out of time.

I am glad that your accident was not too serious. I hope you heal quickly and get to feeling better soon.

I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

-Dennis

Thankyou & Ouch! I went flying right over the handlebars, after hitting my poor little one broadside, full speed. He is just learning the rules, and we were on a bike path away from traffic; and you would not believe how high, how fast, or how far I traveled! My other, older son of 10, was absolutely petrified as he heard the crunch of metal, and saw dad screaming, and flying through the air. My little one forgot to look before turning, and he turned right in front of me...There was no time to do anything. When I landed, I skidded about 10 feet on rough terrain; and I was almost unconscious...I couldn't speak as i took a direct blow to the stomach by a protruding handle bar.

We praised the Lord anyways, because all my stuff went flying out of my pockets; except my new cell phone which costs $400.00!

The hardest part was trying to console my little one who felt so gulty about what he did to cause the accident. Finally I told him I just had too much beet greens for lunch, and that is why I was moaning! That got us all laughing. I am very very sore, but I see a really exciting spiritual lesson here. That's why I got up the energy to write this out today.

Like the Rapture; our accident happened so suddenly! No time to prepare or take evasive action. We have to be ready at all times to meet our Lord.

Part Three

Hello

This is “Secret Sam” reporting for duty.

Let me recap, where I left off, just so we are all on the same wave length:

“So, OK…When will the secret rapture occurr? And what is it’s relationship to Christ, at the time of His second coming? If I can prove that the church will be “caught up” into heaven; and that this “gathering together” (2 Thes.2:1), is a separate event from the return of Christ in judgment, then I have already, more than adequately made my case, and proved Seventh Day Adventists, along with some other Christian groups, as wrong in trying to dismiss the pretrib as false doctrine. Right?

All I need to do now is to show how the dissimilarities between rapture passages, and second coming passages, are significant enough to demonstrate that they are indeed two separate aspects of the same events. In the next post, I will start to deal with relevant Bible texts to prove my point.”

Denborg

I think it was you who asked where my Bible texts were.

To begin, in brief; I would like to share 10 main reasons, why I believe the pretrib rapture is what we can expect:

1/ Christ promised to keep the church from the Tribulation. In Rev.3:10, the risen Christ said that the church would be “kept from,” (literally “preserved,” protected out of”), the hour of trial, or divine retribution, that is coming upon the whole world.

2/ Tribulation Judgments are “the wrath of the Lamb.” Rev.6:16 depicts the cataclysmic judgments of the end times, as the wrath of Christ. Rev.19: 7-9 shows the Church as being the Bride of the Lamb. The church IS NOT the object of His wrath which is poured out on an unbelieving world!

3/ Jesus Himself told His disciples to pray that they would ESCAPE THE TRIBULATION. In Luke 21:36, Jesus said: “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen!” Remember, even Lot was given a last minute chance to escape Sodom, before divine judgement fell.

4/ The coming of Jesus in the clouds, (1 Thes.4:13-18), means that the church’s deliverance has already come. Jesus told His disciples quite clearly: “Lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (Luke 21:28). The Hope of the church is not in surviving the judgment of tribulation, but rather, in escaping it.
5/ God will call His ambassadors home before He declares war on the world. In
2 Cor.5:20, believers are called “Christ’s ambassadors,” who appeal to the world to be reconciled before God, before it’s too late! In Biblical times, as well as present day; one’s ambassadors were always recalled, when it was time to make war with the enemy.

6/ Moral restraint will disappear when the church is taken home. 2 Thes.2:1-11 warns starkly that after the “coming of our Lord,” and “our being gathered unto Him,” that “the man of lawlessness,” (antichrist), will emerge on the world scene. The church’s restraining ministry of “salt” and “light” will no longer hold back the tide of evil.

7/ The Rapture will happen “in the twinkling of an eye.” 1 Cor.15:51-52 promises us that “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye…the dead shall be raised imperishable; and we, [who are living at the time of Rapture], will be changed.” KJV. This instantaneous disappearance will terminate the church’s earthly ministry.

8/ The Rapture will take place in the air. Unlike the glorious appearing, when Christ descends to earth, splits The Mount Of Olives, overthrows Antichrist, and binds Satan, the Rapture will occur when we are “caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.”
(see 1 Thes.4:17).

9/ The woman who suffers persecution during the Tribulation symbolizes Israel. This is a very important point. The woman who delivers the male child, (Christ), represents the nation of Israel. It was Israel, and NOT THE CHURCH which brought forth Christ; and He in turn brought forth the church. Jesus Christ is the Founder of the Church, certainly not a descendant of the Church! Therefore, the persecuted “saints” of the Tribulation are Jewish: the Remnant of the woman’s seed. (see Rev.12: 1-2, 5-6, 17).

10/ The Marriage Super of Christ, The Lamb, and His Bride, the Church, takes place BEFORE THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON. The Bible describes the fall of “Babylon” (kingdom of Antichrist), in Rev.17-18. But, before it tells of Christ’s return to conquer the Antichrist, it tells us that “the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready. (Rev. 19:7-8). THIS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THE BRIDE HAD TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HEAVEN EARLIER; and that she returns with Christ and the hosts of the “armies of heaven, ….dressed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Rev.19:8, 14).

Conclusion:

We have clearly, but briefly been starting to see from the New Testament, that the Rapture and the Second Coming are very different in nature, and therefore, they have to be seen as occurring in two separate events. This observation that there are TWO FUTURE COMINGS, is a very crucial element in determining the Biblical timing of the Rapture.

I am not surprised to see objectors to Pretribulation Rapture, often ignore such BIBLICAL DISTINCTIONS.

Seventh Day Adventists need to accept that a LITERAL INTERPRETATION of all the Biblical passages involved in the two comings, IS BEST REPRESENTED BY A PRETRIBULATIONAL PERSPECTIVE.

I HAVE MUCH MORE IN DEPTH STUDY DETAILS ON THESE TEN POINTS ABOVE; and once I prove that Seventh Day Adventists are wrong on this one; it will leave us with “open season” on a few of your other beliefs. I believe that one wrong belief will effect all your other beliefs. Like Jesus tells us; if you break one; then you become guilty of other wrong beliefs.

I respect the zeal, and the love for Jesus of Seventh Day Adventist; but when we look at the real story on the Rapture and the Second Coming; we see prophecy calling Seventh Day Adventists to come out of their “Babylon,” and join the true Remnant in finishing the work of God on earth; and preparing a people to meet their God in The Secret Rapture of our Lord.

In future posts; I will go into detailed studies on each of these ten points I have named above; and I think you will be hard pressed to refute the immense mountain of Scripture rebukes to your falsehoods of the second coming of Jesus Christ.

I pray that you will see the Light, and that God will make His face to shine upon you, as we continue to study together. Let me know if there is anything I can pray about for you.

We covet the opportunity to lift people to the throne of Grace.

Sincerely
“Secret Sam”

Well, I must be right here...no one has been able to show otherwise from the Bible.

Nice talking to you all...

Secret Sam

Secret Sam,

I guess it is way past the time to study your posts and then to respond to them, however, I don't have the time right now to do so.

I will be back though as soon as I can.

If anybody else has the time to respond to Secret Sam's posts, be my guest.

Of course, we know who Secret Sam really is.