Posted By: Daryl
What Is A Cult? - 11/27/04 05:44 AM
In another topic here in this forum, the UPC is being referred to as a cult.
What is a cult?
What is a cult?
What Is A Cult?
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is A Cult? - 11/27/04 08:36 PM
Here is a definition that I found.
Will
quote:In a nutshell according to the above definition all eligion can fall under this category, but I would like add the following which is found in the Bible, and after cross referencing it in a dictionary is synonymous with cult, and that is the word sect:
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
quote:
Acts 24:5
5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
quote:God Bless,
Acts 28:22
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Will
Posted By: John H.
Re: What Is A Cult? - 11/29/04 12:35 AM
Most all Christian religions/denominations have one or a few people who can be thought of as the head(s) or originator(s) of that religion/denomination. Christians have Jesus Christ. Catholics have Peter (or so they claim). Lutherans have Martin Luther, Presbyterians have John Calvin, Methodists have John Wesley. SDAs have the Whites and other pioneers, and before them William Miller.
But normally at the head of a cult there is a charismatic leader who teaches things that are contrary to Inspiration, and this leader demands obedience in a fashion contrary to that expected by God. Jim Jones and his People's Temple cult in Guyana in the late 70s is one example. People are brainwashed, the free will of believers is not respected. Those who want to leave these groups often find that they're unable to do so without a lot of problems. The leaders are often discovered to be immoral people who use their power for personal gain, earthly prestige and riches.
But normally at the head of a cult there is a charismatic leader who teaches things that are contrary to Inspiration, and this leader demands obedience in a fashion contrary to that expected by God. Jim Jones and his People's Temple cult in Guyana in the late 70s is one example. People are brainwashed, the free will of believers is not respected. Those who want to leave these groups often find that they're unable to do so without a lot of problems. The leaders are often discovered to be immoral people who use their power for personal gain, earthly prestige and riches.
Posted By: liane
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/02/04 09:29 PM
In mainstream Christianity the term cult or sect denoted those that did not consider Christ part of the Godhead, one with God. Some denominations such as the Latter Day Saints, the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventist Church were among those that were considered a cult not following the correct view of Christ.
According to Walter Martin first book on cult denominations we as Seventh-day Adventists fell in that group. It had to do with the human nature of Christ that was the problem.
During the 50's that changed to some degree because of Walter Martin and some thought leaders within the SDA church that changed the wording of our belief regarding the nature of Christ. Since that time it has been a battle topic within the church of what we are.
In Martin's book called "The Kingdom of the Cults" are also listed religions that fall into the what he termed as cults.
For the time being though because of what happened in the 50's we are far more accepted within mainstream Christianity than we were back then.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
According to Walter Martin first book on cult denominations we as Seventh-day Adventists fell in that group. It had to do with the human nature of Christ that was the problem.
During the 50's that changed to some degree because of Walter Martin and some thought leaders within the SDA church that changed the wording of our belief regarding the nature of Christ. Since that time it has been a battle topic within the church of what we are.
In Martin's book called "The Kingdom of the Cults" are also listed religions that fall into the what he termed as cults.
For the time being though because of what happened in the 50's we are far more accepted within mainstream Christianity than we were back then.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/02/04 10:11 PM
Hi Liane,
Can you describe what we as SDA's changed regarding our belief in the nature of Christ pre-50's and post-50's? I find this interesting and want to know what we said\changed vs.what the Bible teaches.
God Bless,
Will
Can you describe what we as SDA's changed regarding our belief in the nature of Christ pre-50's and post-50's? I find this interesting and want to know what we said\changed vs.what the Bible teaches.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/03/04 12:22 AM
Will,
You could read this for a start:
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/columns/c-lk031120.php3
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/reportandreview/kir-qod-atonement.php3
You could read this for a start:
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/columns/c-lk031120.php3
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/reportandreview/kir-qod-atonement.php3
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/03/04 12:40 AM
Claudia,
You must have posted as a visitor, therefore, as you are still a registered member of MSDAOL, I sent to you by email your username and password information.
You must have posted as a visitor, therefore, as you are still a registered member of MSDAOL, I sent to you by email your username and password information.
Posted By: liane
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/03/04 02:44 AM
Thank you Claudia for the links. They are well written and needed in such a time as these.
Next to Love, the understanding of the Nature of Christ and what happened in our church is very important and much needed in these times.
The truth of Christ's nature is the whole foundation of all our other doctrines such as the state of the dead, the Sanctuary and many more. It is the foundation of knowing the true Christ for these days and our work is being cut out for us by the return of Questions On Doctrines.
What a sad day for us with so many other issues that are vital to the witness we need so much to do out in the world yet are troubled by so much inside the church.
As stated in the Spiriti of Prophecy, we have far more to fear from within than we do from without and it was our own that reached out to the outside and worked with those to undo the work God had given us and the truth needed for these times.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Next to Love, the understanding of the Nature of Christ and what happened in our church is very important and much needed in these times.
The truth of Christ's nature is the whole foundation of all our other doctrines such as the state of the dead, the Sanctuary and many more. It is the foundation of knowing the true Christ for these days and our work is being cut out for us by the return of Questions On Doctrines.
What a sad day for us with so many other issues that are vital to the witness we need so much to do out in the world yet are troubled by so much inside the church.
As stated in the Spiriti of Prophecy, we have far more to fear from within than we do from without and it was our own that reached out to the outside and worked with those to undo the work God had given us and the truth needed for these times.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Posted By: John H.
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/03/04 08:02 PM
The QOD people also tried to change the sanctuary doctrine. Some more good reading on the subject is M.L. Andreasen's Letters to the Churches, online at
http://members.cox.net/jhowardjr/sda/Andreasen.pdf
http://members.cox.net/jhowardjr/sda/Andreasen.pdf
Posted By: liane
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/04/04 12:44 AM
Hi John:
That is an excellent booklet written by him.
It was sad what he had to go through for the truth, but we have been blessed because of him those that were able to read what happened.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
That is an excellent booklet written by him.
It was sad what he had to go through for the truth, but we have been blessed because of him those that were able to read what happened.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/04/04 11:54 AM
Since the nature of Christ has come up in this topic and I found a quote speaking on it yesterday, I thought Id post it here. Its from CS Lewis "mere christianity, unfortionately I havent read it in the original book but as a quote. I hope it was fairly quoted in the first place.
/Thomas
quote:What do you think about this?
No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good. A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. After all, you find out the strength... of a wind by trying to walk against it, not by lying down. A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later.
That is why bad people, in one sence, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means--the only complete realist.
/Thomas
Posted By: liane
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/05/04 12:51 AM
Will let the Spirit of Prophecy speak for me:
"In the parable of the unjust judge, Christ has shown what we should do. "Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him?" Christ, our example, did nothing to vindicate or deliver Himself. He committed His case to God. So His followers are not to accuse or condemn, or to resort to force in order to deliver themselves. {COL 171.2}
When trials arise that seem unexplainable, we should not allow our peace to be spoiled. However unjustly we may be treated, let not passion arise. By indulging a spirit
172
of retaliation we injure ourselves. We destroy our own confidence in God, and grieve the Holy Spirit. There is by our side a witness, a heavenly messenger, who will lift up for us a standard against the enemy. He will shut us in with the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness. Beyond this Satan cannot penetrate. He cannot pass this shield of holy light. {COL 171.3}
While the world is progressing in wickedness, none of us need flatter ourselves that we shall have no difficulties. But it is these very difficulties that bring us into the audience chamber of the Most High. We may seek counsel of One who is infinite in wisdom. {COL 172.1}
The Lord says, "Call upon Me in the day of trouble." Ps. 50:15. He invites us to present to Him our perplexities and necessities, and our need of divine help. He bids us be instant in prayer. As soon as difficulties arise, we are to offer to Him our sincere, earnest petitions. By our importunate prayers we give evidence of our strong confidence in God. The sense of our need leads us to pray earnestly, and our heavenly Father is moved by our supplications. {COL 172.2}
Often those who suffer reproach or persecution for their faith are tempted to think themselves forsaken by God. In the eyes of men they are in the minority. To all appearance their enemies triumph over them. But let them not violate their conscience. He who has suffered in their behalf, and has borne their sorrows and afflictions, has not forsaken them. {COL 172.3}
Liane, the Zoo Mama
"In the parable of the unjust judge, Christ has shown what we should do. "Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him?" Christ, our example, did nothing to vindicate or deliver Himself. He committed His case to God. So His followers are not to accuse or condemn, or to resort to force in order to deliver themselves. {COL 171.2}
When trials arise that seem unexplainable, we should not allow our peace to be spoiled. However unjustly we may be treated, let not passion arise. By indulging a spirit
172
of retaliation we injure ourselves. We destroy our own confidence in God, and grieve the Holy Spirit. There is by our side a witness, a heavenly messenger, who will lift up for us a standard against the enemy. He will shut us in with the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness. Beyond this Satan cannot penetrate. He cannot pass this shield of holy light. {COL 171.3}
While the world is progressing in wickedness, none of us need flatter ourselves that we shall have no difficulties. But it is these very difficulties that bring us into the audience chamber of the Most High. We may seek counsel of One who is infinite in wisdom. {COL 172.1}
The Lord says, "Call upon Me in the day of trouble." Ps. 50:15. He invites us to present to Him our perplexities and necessities, and our need of divine help. He bids us be instant in prayer. As soon as difficulties arise, we are to offer to Him our sincere, earnest petitions. By our importunate prayers we give evidence of our strong confidence in God. The sense of our need leads us to pray earnestly, and our heavenly Father is moved by our supplications. {COL 172.2}
Often those who suffer reproach or persecution for their faith are tempted to think themselves forsaken by God. In the eyes of men they are in the minority. To all appearance their enemies triumph over them. But let them not violate their conscience. He who has suffered in their behalf, and has borne their sorrows and afflictions, has not forsaken them. {COL 172.3}
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/05/04 01:46 AM
I would like for us to try and keep on topic here. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Those side topics could become new topics though.
Those side topics could become new topics though.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What Is A Cult? - 12/05/04 03:19 PM
Daryl, sorry for intruding on the cultic topic with Christ You or another moderator could perhaps move it into a new topic.
Could anyone explain what Lianes quote had to do with mine, if it was an answere at all.
/Thomas
You or another moderator could perhaps move it into a new topic.Could anyone explain what Lianes quote had to do with mine, if it was an answere at all.
/Thomas
Posted By: Jeff
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/14/05 09:10 AM
I can see it’s been awhile since anyone posted to this topic, but I think it is interesting and important enough to revive it.
What a cult is depends on who gets to define it. The term prior to the 1940’s was mostly a benign synonym of “sect”. Some Evangelicals began to apply the term to religious groups who used bibles that deviated from the KJV or whose beliefs were different from the teachings of the KJV as interpreted by—you guessed it—them.
By the 1950’s Evangelicals like Jan Karel van Baalen, J. Oswald Sanders and, of course, Walter Martin, were applying the term to a broader group. Martin’s definition from Rise of the Cults, in at least some form, has been used by Evangelicals ever since:
What it amounts to is a modern equivalent to the term heresy which begs the question, who gets to decide what is “orthodox” and what gives them authority to decide? At least they don’t seem to include burning “cultists” at the stake….yet!
Perhaps another related topic should be, Are Christians called to designate “cults”?
Jeff
What a cult is depends on who gets to define it. The term prior to the 1940’s was mostly a benign synonym of “sect”. Some Evangelicals began to apply the term to religious groups who used bibles that deviated from the KJV or whose beliefs were different from the teachings of the KJV as interpreted by—you guessed it—them.
By the 1950’s Evangelicals like Jan Karel van Baalen, J. Oswald Sanders and, of course, Walter Martin, were applying the term to a broader group. Martin’s definition from Rise of the Cults, in at least some form, has been used by Evangelicals ever since:
quote:There are two major problems with this definition:
"By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith."
- It is subjective. The RCC could easily have used the same definition to condemn the Reformation.
- It does not establish the authority by which the term can apply.
What it amounts to is a modern equivalent to the term heresy which begs the question, who gets to decide what is “orthodox” and what gives them authority to decide? At least they don’t seem to include burning “cultists” at the stake….yet!
Perhaps another related topic should be, Are Christians called to designate “cults”?
Jeff
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/14/05 10:22 AM
Christians are certainly called to define according to their best understanding what is and what is not a sound system of religious faith. The UPC does not teach the biblical view of the godhead but instead teaches an ancient heresy called modalism. Many would represent that then as a cult.
Nevertheless, the determination is an inevitable outcome of who is measuring against what.
Nevertheless, the determination is an inevitable outcome of who is measuring against what.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/15/05 07:09 AM
quote:Agreed. But can't we just say THAT?
Originally posted by Larry Kirkpatrick:
Christians are certainly called to define according to their best understanding what is and what is not a sound system of religious faith.
quote:I agree that the UPC does not teach what I believe is a biblical view of the godhead. But what this amounts to is that we *disagree* with them. Our definition of the Trinity is not explicated in scripture. It is an inferred doctrine that seems to us, the best reconciliation of what speaks of God’s uniqueness versus Christ’s Godness. Certainly this is something that we don’t fully understand. Then, why should we castigate a group for teaching a different explanation for what we don’t fully understand either. I’d rather just reason from the scriptures and allow them to disagree. From there, what they believe is between them and God. This is what we'd ask of those who don't agree with us.
The UPC does not teach the biblical view of the godhead but instead teaches an ancient heresy called modalism. Many would represent that then as a cult.
I find no scriptural example where we are called to assign categories to how we disagree with people, creating and assigning negative terms. The term does not bring us closer to reconciling them, or anyone else that we believe in what we believe is truth. It seems counterproductive.
Jeff
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/14/05 08:40 PM
OK, dumb question, but I'm new here so be easy on me. What is UPC? I know it's not the Universel Product Code.
Redfog
Redfog
Posted By: Jeff
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/15/05 12:02 AM
quote:Yeah, aren't they that shipping company???
Originally posted by Redfog:
OK, dumb question, but I'm new here so be easy on me. What is UPC? I know it's not the Universel Product Code.
Redfog
![[Animated Laughter]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
J/K, it's the United Pentecostal Church.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
They are sometimes referred to as Oneness Pentecostals.BTW, I'm new here as well.
Jeff
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/16/05 12:36 AM
But here is where we have such authority. Remember, in 1844 heaven declared Babylon (there's name-calling and labelling) falle, We can, indeed, we must, be willing to sustain Heaven's declaration of what is and is not Babylon. I am comfortable in calling a spade a spade. I have no trouble identifying the UPC or the Catholic Church to be cults. LK
Posted By: Jeff
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/16/05 02:13 AM
quote:LK, I hope you don’t think I am trying to be contentious, because that’s not my purpose. What definition of “cult” are you applying? Perhaps I can agree.
Originally posted by Larry Kirkpatrick:
We can, indeed, we must, be willing to sustain Heaven's declaration of what is and is not Babylon. I am comfortable in calling a spade a spade. I have no trouble identifying the UPC or the Catholic Church to be cults.
If, by cult, you mean in the traditional sense, more synonymous with sect—a small religious group that has branched off of a larger established religion—I agree. If, by cult, you mean the same as defined by Walter Martin’s and other’s invention, I’d rather not use that term for that purpose. Not only do I disagree with that use for the reasons I’ve stated previously, but also it seems that to use the term to apply to a group like the UPC, within that modified definition, I’d be acknowledging Evangelical’s justification and authority to apply the same term to us.
I agree with the authority to speak of Babylon, but that’s not the same thing.
Jeff
[ February 15, 2005, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Jeff ]
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/16/05 08:04 PM
There is actually a book in a publically and widely known Christian Bookstore here in Fredericton that actually labels the UPC as a cult.
They are compared with the JWs who are also listed there. The Mormons are also listed there.
Another interesting fact though is that I do not remember them listing the SDA Church as a cult in that book. I don't remember seeing the Roman Catholic Church being listed there either.
The next time I am there I will check out that book again to make sure my memory is serving me correctly.
They are compared with the JWs who are also listed there. The Mormons are also listed there.
Another interesting fact though is that I do not remember them listing the SDA Church as a cult in that book. I don't remember seeing the Roman Catholic Church being listed there either.
The next time I am there I will check out that book again to make sure my memory is serving me correctly.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/19/05 10:03 AM
quote:Daryl, I’ve also seen the UPC labeled as a cult on several websites. Of course, JWs and Mormons are there as well. I read somewhere that the RCC is not typically thought of as a cult because of the portion they take up in the overall Christian pie. It seems that even if a particular doctrine is considered “wrong”, they are not a cult if the doctrine is accepted by a large number of Christians, no matter how unscriptural it is.
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
…Another interesting fact though is that I do not remember them listing the SDA Church as a cult in that book. I don't remember seeing the Roman Catholic Church being listed there either.
Those groups that do consider the Seventh Day Adventist Church a cult do so because our doctrines that they believe are wrong are not accepted by many other Christians. Some of the doctrines that people find so “cultish” are one’s like the Investigative Judgment, that Michael refers to Jesus, and that Satan is the “scapegoat”. Perhaps if as many Christians believed that Satan is the “scapegoat” as believe that Mary intercedes on behalf of man, we’d not be considered a cult either!
Jeff
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Is A Cult? - 02/20/05 01:27 AM
In many parts of the world, the members of a majority faith group usually refer to other religious groups (usually minority faith groups)as cults. In the Philippines, for example, where over 80 percent of the people are Roman Catholics,
it is a common practice for these people (RCs) - priests and lay people - to label and view non-Catholic Christian groups like Evangelicals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and countless Born-Again groups and Adventists not merely as "separated brothers and sisters in Christ" but as cults and sects.
it is a common practice for these people (RCs) - priests and lay people - to label and view non-Catholic Christian groups like Evangelicals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and countless Born-Again groups and Adventists not merely as "separated brothers and sisters in Christ" but as cults and sects.