What is the spirit of a man?

Quote:

Tom, your views are similar to Darius'. We've reviewed them in detail from different angles over a long period of time and done a lot of study and the staff unanimously agrees that the main thrusts of your teaching on God not punishing, on Christ not making an expiatory atonement, on Christ not suffering under the wrath of God in our place and possibly others I can't think of right now are unbiblical. The members of the forum can look at the most recent examples of our dialogues in the New Light forum where we examined your views on whether God directly punishes and on the atonement.

1.You're very confused if you think my ideas are similar to Darius'. They're not. On virturally every area we differ. Our view of inspiration is different, where my view is very similar to yours, and far different than his. He believes in Universalism, which of itself is a hugely different paradigm. He disagrees with virtually every idea I share on the atonement and the Great Controversy. That you would lump me with him shows a shocking. If you were going to lump me with someone, it should be with John B.

2.My ideas, as far as I'm aware, on just about everything (at least, everything important, that's not semantical), are the same as John B's. I agree with everything he writes regarding justification by faith, the atonement, and the Great Controversy.

3.The main idea I'm aware of that I have which is out of the mainstream, if Waggoner's ideas can be accepted as mainstream, are the ideas of God's not killing, where I agree with the ideas that Ikan shared. I'd be happy to refrain from sharing these ideas, if that's requested. I've only spoken of these ideas up to now because I was specifically and repeatedly (many, many times) and directly asked to do so.

4.Regarding the atonement, as far as I'm aware, I'm in complete agreement with what Waggoner presented during the time when he was being strongly and repeatedly endorsed by the Spirit of Prophecy. I would be happy to present my ideas on justification by faith and the atonement by just quoting him.

I also agree 100% with Ty Gibson's ideas, who is an SDA is good and regular standing, and appears on 3ABN, and works in conjunction with with organized church. I'd be happy to present my ideas by quoting him as well.

5.You said you're asking me a "second time." When was the first? I missed that. Please point that out to me.

6.a.Just to be clear, I do believe that God punishes us. He reproves, chasens, and disciplines those He loves. I only differ on what I perceive the means He uses, not on the fact.

b.I absolutely believe and have stated as much many times that Christ suffered under the wrath of God in our place. For you to state I have been teaching something different than this is to severely misrepresent my position. My ideas are the same as Waggoner's and Gibson's (and John B.), and it should go without saying that I believe they are completely Biblical and in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy. I just don't agree with Anselm.

c.Regarding expiatory atonement, I agree that Christ received the punishment for our sins, the penalty for sin, that He died as our substitute, that He suffered God's wrath against sin, that He died as a propitiation for our sins. I don't agree with Anselm, but I do agree with Waggoner. I don't agree with you, but I do agree with Gibson.

7.Among the main posters in this forum are Mark, Rosangela, John B., Mike and myself.

a.Mike holds views regarding the God's character and sanctification which are far outside of the mainstream. I don't think I need to quote him to substantiate this, but I certainly can.

b.Rosangela holds ideas regarding temptation which are outside of the mainstream. I've never heard the idea that we are only tempted by Satan before, within Adventism, or outside of Adventism.

c.Mark holds Calvistic views which I gave up when I was a Calvinist and became an Adventist. It surprises me that any SDA could hold these views.

d.John B's views, baring semantics, are the same as mine, as far as I can tell. I haven't talked to him specifically about many different themes, but I have had long conversations with him, and as to what he posts here on line, excluding semantics, I say "Amen!" to everything he says.

Ok, my reason for bringing out these things is to point out that I'm not unique in my role in this forum as far as having different ideas is concerned. Everyone who regularly posts presents ideas which are out of the norm. And this is one of the nice things about forums. You get an opportunity to present ideas which others may not be familiar with, and to learn from discussing new ideas.

In your rules section, you mention the 28 fundamental beliefs. I agree with these beliefs (unlike others who have posted here, e.g. discussions regarding the Trinity). If there is some specific topic you don't want discussed, shouldn't that be clearly spelled out in the rules section?

I'm happy to abide by whatever rules you want to establish. Just make them public, and I'll abide by them. Let me know specifically what I can and can't say, and I'll abide by that. I'm just asking that you be specific.

Tom

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/15/06 02:48 AM

No one is willing to venture an opinion so far? . . . Hmmm. I found the quote interesting because we generally think of the Holy Spirit as being the One who searches and convicts us of sin. Do you think the passage may be saying that the Spirit employs man's own spirit to enlighten a man about his true spiritual state? If so, what does that tell us about man's spirit, his conscience, his will, etc and how they interact with the Spirit of God to enlighten and transform the person?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/15/06 07:27 AM

I was expecting John B. to say something.

In the Hebrew, the word translated "spirit" (ruah I think) can be translated "spirit," "wind," or "breath" depending on the context. When it refers to the spirit returning to God, that's not a living entity, as non-SDA's believe (the same thing is said of animals; their "spirit" also returns to the Lord), but simply a poetic way of saying they're dead.

We know now that all of thought occurs in the brain. The ancient spoke of the "heart" of the "bowels" to refer to different aspects of thought. The "heart," for example, is the center of a man's thoughts and emotions, where he does his deepest thinking. The bowels refers to the unconscious mind.

The spirit, as used in the context, refers to the part of the mind which can appreciate spiritual things. I think this is clear. All communication between God and man occurs in the mind; without the brain all communication stops. I don't see what else the spirit (in the context of dealing with spiritual things) could be referring to.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/15/06 09:22 AM

So the topic ought to be renamed "what is the brain of a man?"?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/16/06 12:04 AM

Because the spirit is a subset of the mind? By the same logic being suggested, should the question be, "What is the upper torso of a man?"

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/18/06 02:14 AM

So, you had expected John B. to say something!

And I have been waiting to see what you folks come up with.

The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit

save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God

piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit

and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

The above scriptures along with those Mark presented, are very meaningful

I agree with Mark, to the state of things in regards to the understanding of ‘the spirit’ and ability to think in terms of spirit, even though it is the prevailing theme of the scriptures and salvation. But this is not only true of Adventists but of all of fallen mankind. I am finding it very difficult to express here, what is very simple, due to the web that has been woven.

God created man in his image, in the image of God created he them. As God has a spirit, so also man has a spirit. Our concept of God will directly affect our understanding of ourselves.

On the other hand the problem of the false doctrine (of the spirit being immortal), and the way some statements have been used, has made many Adventists to think that there is no spirit at all, and to make no difference between soul and spirit. Oftentimes, reducing man to the purely soulish life; physical life with mental activity as modern so called science is wont to profess.

Just because the spirit of man is not immortal, does not mean it does not exist, much less that we should be ignorant of it. On the other hand, the reality of sin has something to do with that concept, since man died spiritually and now the spirit lives by the flesh. However to think of the spirit in physical terms is entirely misleading, even as much as to think of the spirit as immortal, is.

As breath is meaningful to our physical life, and must be considered part of our physical life, so also is the spirit to spiritual life. Now if any man tries to quantify 'breath' physically, he will come up with just “air”; but air is not breath. So likewise if the spirit is tried to be physically identified, it will be misunderstood. Religious tendency is however disposed to think that whatever is not physical is immortal, and that is just not true as the issue of life and death; sin and salvation is spiritual and not physical.

As without breath there can be no physical life, so without spirit there can be no thought in the brain. Some have called it the inner or inmost life. The spirit also stands for our identity of person and thereby our very existence.

The spirit must be thought of spiritually, and this probably is another difficulty. What is spiritual thinking? Well, it is thinking in terms of the: thoughts and intents of the heart. The spirit is the heart from which the thoughts and intents proceed. When allowed, the spirit of the Lord lays bare what is in our spirit. That is why there is a division between the soul and the spirit. This is very vital in salvation. To speak of the soul is to speak of the resultant interaction of the spirit and the body. Where this division is not realized the understanding of spirit is not realized either.

For many ‘the heart’ means their seat of emotion, desire or feelings. That is simply so because their spirit is living off of the flesh. However, it is not the way God created man to be. Character and spirit is also not the same, though character reflects the spirit.

To speak of the spirit is to speak of the spirit of a person. To speak of the spirit of a person, is to speak of the person, not encumbered with physics. So the spirit is what we spiritually are, yet while being that what we are, we have the authority to change that which we are in the spirit.

The will and faith are two fundamental realizable aspects of spirit or heart. The soul on the other hand is that which we have become, not inclusive of the spirit. So then, do we begin to understand why it is necessary for the word of God to divide between the soul and the spirit, discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart? It is in the spirit where the new birth needs to occur and not in the soul. To endeavor to make the change in the soul is backwards; it is to endeavor to change the fruit, and not the root (the spirit). So much of religion is the works of the soul, rather than the work of the spirit. That is what Paul is trying to address in 1st Corinthians 13.

Well , I’ll stop here, and let you folks deal with this.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/18/06 06:03 AM

The Spirit of Prophecy speaks quite a number of times of God's creating a new life in the soul through the Holy Spirit. For example:

Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. (FILB 55)

It seems to me that there is a definately a mystery involved here. All communication between man and heaven occurs in the mind, through the brain nerves, as EGW puts it. Faith, the will, originate in the brain. However man is not a purely physical being. There is more to man than the chemical activity that occurs in the brain. The will of a man, while housed in the brain and dependent upon it, controls the brain which houses it.

As I understand these things, man has the ability to perceive spiritual things because God created his mind to have this ability. I do not see the spirit of man as existing independently from his mind. If the mind of a man is dead, so is the spirit.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/18/06 01:33 PM

John B put words to my thoughts.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/18/06 06:20 PM

Yes, excellent post John to stimulate thought. I agree that our view of the spirit of man is an important ingredient in our overall perspective of what God is trying to do to save us and how He goes about it. Your point is well taken that God is spirit and that we are made in His image. That is a thought worth meditating on and exploring more.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/18/06 06:22 PM

Also, your treatment of the 'dividing of soul and spirit' passage is interesting and deserves more study.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/19/06 01:58 PM

1 Thessalonians 5:23.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I always think that these three identities: spirit, soul and body are the Spirit of God and our living body as a living soul. When the Spirit is gone, the soul is dead and the body becomes dust.

How does this verse fits in your theory, John?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 04:01 AM

And all of these discussions continue because we assume that the writers of the Bible were authorities on the nature of the Eternal Creator of the Universe. Such thinking may have been excusable five hundred years ago but not today. We should know better.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 08:12 AM

What progress has been made on knowledge about the nautre of the Creator the last hundred years?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 08:14 AM

There's been a lot of progress on the character of the Creator. I think that's what's of concern. I doubt in eternity we will know a whole lot of more of the nature of God.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 02:55 PM

Zero. Zilch. Nada. Theology is a dead "science." No new data; just a new rearrangement of the old.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 03:20 PM

then who is a better authority on God than the bible authors?

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 04:55 PM

Romans 1:20. Those who study the things that He made. There is strong logic to that. Everything we do or make is a product of the condition of our minds. Frightening, isn't it?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 05:28 PM

Tom

In the context of this discussion, for Jesus to be a better source of knowledge about God than the authors who wrote about what Jesus thaught while walking earth would require personal special revelation for everyone. Maybe He is teaching people appart from any biblical source but it doesnt seem to be the norm does it?

Darius

Quote:

Romans 1:20. Those who study the things that He made. There is strong logic to that. Everything we do or make is a product of the condition of our minds. Frightening, isn't it?

While God ougth to be made plain for those who study His creation, you will find the majority of those who pursue this field to be either atheists or agnostics, and even of them who would call themselves christians most would not acknowledge Him as Creator. The following verses are all to true:

Quote:

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

My base for saying this is having spent four of the last five years at different biology institutions at two different universities.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 06:42 PM

I had in mind for the thread to focus on the spirit of man rather than on God. God enters in because we're made in His image. Would anyone like to address the soul/spirit difference in man based on what revelation tells us or from nature - but not from speculation! Darius, how about you?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 07:00 PM

Jesus Christ uses many sources to reveal truth. The purpose of the Scriptures is to testify of Him.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:39, 40)

While God ought to be plain from a study of the Scriptures, you will find that the majority of those who pursue this field to have worse concepts of God's character than those who are totally ignorant of it. I say this on the basis of studying for 6 years at a religious/theological institution.

I'm just making an ironic observation here; I'm not denigrating the Scriptures in any way. The problem is with those who read the Scriptures, not with the Scriptures themselves.

I'll give a perfect example of this. When Jesus Christ taught, He said He spoke not of Himself, but spoke the words He heard from His Father, and did the works He saw Him doing. Now where did Jesus see and hear these things? From His study of the Old Testament. So Jesus was basically saying, "If you want to know what I think God is like based on My study of the Old Testament, just look at Me."

Now when we look at Jesus Christ, we see one thing, but when we look at the Old Testament God, we see something totally different. What we actually see is not the true God, but a caricature. The true God we see in Jesus Christ. Now the true God was revealed in the Old Testament, but as a glass dimly, or, as Paul puts it, through a veil. Through Jesus Christ the veil is removed, and we see what God is really like.

But Jesus saw the truth about God when He studied the Old Testament, because that's where He learned that truth. So this shows that the difference is not in the Scriptures, so both Christ as we study the same Old Testament, but in the one reading those Scriptures. He saw something totally different in them than we do.

Oh for the eyes of Jesus Christ!

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 07:10 PM

How would anything we said about the soul/spirit based on nature, but not inspiration, be anything but speculation?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 07:15 PM

One comment I would make is that it is a mistake to take the Scriptures that say split man up into parts, such as body, soul and spirit, too literally, as if these were exact divisions. This is easily seen in that the divisions are split up differently. For example, one place says "body, soul, and spirit" while another says, "mind, heart, soul and strength." So if we are going to use the one text to say man is comprised of three distinct things, "body, soul, and spirit," say like a three roomed house, where each thing corresponds to a different room, then to be consistent, from the other text we'd have to say that man is comprised of four distinct things, which are "mind, heart, soul and strength."

So we shouldn't take these things too literally, but should instead try to understand the meaning that is trying to be communicated.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 07:47 PM

Mark, humans are not spirit beings nor do they have spirits. Let us not be bound by the misunderstandings of men who wrote the best they understood thousands of years ago. I can't comment on a concept that is not supported by enlightened facts.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 08:31 PM

Darius,

You say that with so much certainty, therefore, what is the basis, what is the authority of your certainty?

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/28/06 10:00 PM

Because those are the facts. We are human. The Creator is a spirit. Spirits can see other spirits and humans. Humans cannot see spirits unless the spirits take on the form of humans. It is not possible to believe in the Gen. account of the creation of man and believe that man either is or has a spirit.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 12:11 AM

Simply saying that those are the facts isn't good enough for me, as I could also say the same thing about anything I post.

When it comes to spiritual things, we can't simply say this is a fact or that is a fact without having some authority.

Christ spoke with authority, and, seeing who He is, I accept His authority.

I also accept the fact that He passed His knowledge or facts on to His disciples, who, in turn, passed it on to others.

So, I ask again, by what authority, Darius, to you claim what you posted as fact about humans not being spirit beings and God and angels, both the unfallen and unfallen angels I might add, being spirit beings?

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 12:54 AM

Daryl, there are some obvious things I refuse to argue. If you think you are a spirit or have a spirit then that is up to you. The only authority I recognize is the Creator of the universe and the hidden things about Him are clearly seen in the things that He made.

When you say that He passed the word to His disciples it is amazing how that title is restrict to a few men living two thousand years ago. Somehow it is forgotten that He has disciples on earth today.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 01:58 AM

I'm not understanding the authority line here. It's interesting. I'm trying to get my head around this.

Is the thought that truth cannot be accepted unless some authority says it? What if God reveals something to you directly. Then the authority would be God, right?

Since all truth comes from God, if we hold to anything true, God must have been the source, and hence the authority. So Darius' authority for anything true he holds would be God, just as for any of the rest of us.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 02:06 AM

If God tells me something it is of course true, and if I tell you about it would still be true but how would you know it was true? You didnt hear God tell me and only have my word for it. Obviously there are many who claim to talk for God to whom God has not spoken. Many of the prophets tell about such things.

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 02:35 AM

How do you know anything is true? You evaluate it according to what you already believe to be true. You can't base anything solely on the basis of authority unless you don't think.

An accepted basis of truth helps to communicate. But one should be able to recognize truth regardless of the source. For example, here's a cool quote:

When a man takes one step toward God, God takes more steps toward that man than there are sands in the worlds of time.

I love this! This is from Jewish mysticism I think. But I don't care what the source is. The first time I heard it, to use John B. speak, my spirit bore witness that it was true. I don't need authority to know it's true. The fact that this is from a source I do not recognize as authoritative makes no difference to me. I still know it's true.

A better question, IMO, would be "Darius, what's your evidence for what you believe?" *That's* what's importance. Not authority, but evidence.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 03:43 AM

Yes, evidence is probably a better word, however, authority is also relevant in spiritual things.

In spiritual things, in the things of God, the Bible is the authority I go by, for the Bible came from God to man. The Bible is God's method of communication to man.

What the Bible says about the spirit of a man is an authorative source, whereas what you or I say is to be examined by that authorative source. Paul commended the Bereans for examining the authoritative source, the Scriptures, to see if what Paul said was so.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:18 AM

Tom, you hit the nail on the head. Christians have been trained not to think but to follow their chosen authorities. A radio preacher said it well, On any topic Christians are more interested in the heroes than in examining the issues. If their hero believes it then they believe it as well.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:20 AM

It must sadden the Creator to hear his creatures say that the Bible is His method of communication to man.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:30 AM

I am not going to say anything further here as it is causing us to go

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:35 AM

It is off-topic to even ask what is the spirit of man and expect any answer but, "Man does not have a spirit."

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:38 AM

John's post is very good at explaining the natural reasons for belief in a spirit. He's suggesting or implying that awareness in general, self-awareness in particular, consciousness, will, thought, faith and conscience are both the essential properties of a spirit and are at the same time the evidences of a spirit. The essential difference between a robot that might be infinitely smarter and faster than a man are these properties. Combine these properties with traits of character and a body you have the person, the soul.

How could we have a single original thought if we have no spirit? There has to be a force behind the chemical reactions in our brains. The reactions allow us to think, but what guides the reactions? Not the body or we would be completely carnel. And not the spirit of God or of Satan or we would all be saints or hell's angels. But for the Christian, it says 'In Him', that is to say, in His Spirit, 'we [our spirits] live and move and have our being'.

Here is a text that Darius is aluding to I think:

2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This was also one of the texts I had in mind when I suggested that the Biblical teaching on what is a soul is that it is composed of a of body and a spirit.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 04:43 AM

What do you think John, and all the rest?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 05:34 AM

Well folks, you have been here for quite the clip and all in a day.

I think Darius; you could contribute a lot more meaningfully if you were to just share the information you have. The way your posts have largely been has tended to be mostly disinformation. Disinformation is not helpful.

So Darius if you think our pearls are plastic or common, why don’t you show some real pearls (information) and see if we merchants of pearls may be willing to sell the ones we have for one of greater worth.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 05:40 AM

Quote:

John's post is very good at explaining the natural reasons for belief in a spirit. He's suggesting or implying that awareness in general, self-awareness in particular, consciousness, will, thought, faith and conscience are both the essential properties of a spirit and are at the same time the evidences of a spirit. The essential difference between a robot that might be infinitely smarter and faster than a man are these properties. Combine these properties with traits of character and a body you have the person, the soul.

How could we have a single original thought if we have no spirit? There has to be a force behind the chemical reactions in our brains. The reactions allow us to think, but what guides the reactions? Not the body or we would be completely carnel. And not the spirit of God or of Satan or we would all be saints or hell's angels. But for the Christian, it says 'In Him', that is to say, in His Spirit, 'we [our spirits] live and move and have our being'.

I like your paraphrase there Mark.

However, it is late now, so I will get back to this tomorrow.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 05:41 AM

Mark, based on your post above would what you call spirit be what I call consciousness?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/29/06 06:17 AM

What's the difference between "spirit" and "mind" in the sense you used "spirit" in your post, Mark?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 05:41 AM

I think I can answer both questions, Darius' and Tom's, by saying that in my view, the spirit of the man is what pilot's his mind. Although it has that attribute of consciouness, it is not consciousness. It is, simply, him. It is that being that worships God 'in spirit (the being, the complete moral intellegence) and in truth'.

It's not something that I claim to understand fully by any means.

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 09:42 AM

Mark,

When you read the following Bible verses about "the spirit" doesn't it seem like your spirit is kind of like your inner feelings? and sometimes just your attitude? your conscience?

Mt:5:3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt:26:41: Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mk:2:8: And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Lk:1:47: And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Lk:1:80: And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

Lk:9:55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 09:47 AM

Also I dont know if this is off topic but what in the world does Jesus mean by this?

Lk:24:39: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

What does the word "spirit" mean there?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 10:11 AM

On the last one, He was using the word "spirit" as in "ghost." Recall that the Holy Spirit is older English, was called the "Holy Ghost."

Regarding the other quotes, it seems to me that the spirit is speaking of functions of the mind. For example, "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" seems to me the same thing as saying "My mind has rejoiced in God my Savior." or perhaps "the part of my mind which is interested in spiritual things and appreciates them has rejoiced in God my Savior." But that's not very poetic.

Or "the mind is willing, but the flesh is weak" where the part of the mind that is willing is the higher powers of the mind, and the flesh refers to the lower powers.

I'm not seeing that the spirit has any function which is disassociated from the mind. That is, if you took away the mind of a human being, he would cease to have a spirit. The essense of a human being is contained within the mind. People without minds are often referred to as "vegeatables," which conveys this idea.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 01:46 PM

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 02:13 PM

Good question Claudia on Christ's statement. It is evidence that Christ, although He no longer had a body subject to death, although His body was now glorified, still had a body. The same appears to be the case of the glorified saints. They are given new, glorified bodies, so although it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, this doesn't mean disembodied spirits do. Instead, it means that the form of our new bodies are not as we know them today - flesh and blood.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 03:27 PM

Even good angels who are 'ministering spirits' appear to have bodies. The bodies of the four exalted angels who stand in God's presence are described in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 06:49 PM

If A) Spirit of man refers to his emotional life, and B) we are to worship in spirit and in truth, then the conclution seems to be that the SDA (conservative?) aversion towards emotional worship is unbiblical...

Ellen White comments that it is seen to look upon the cross and not be emotionally affected. We are emotional as well as, I'm not sure what word to use, thoughtful?, beings, so our emotions are involved in everything we do. The Scripture tell us to love God with our heart as well as mind, which points to the emotions.

The SDA aversion isn't targeted against emotionalism per se, but against emotionalism not supported by reason; that is, emotionalism for emotionalism's sake. But there's something definately wrong if we are not moved by the Gospel.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 07:00 PM

Even good angels who are 'ministering spirits' appear to have bodies.

Yes, this is an interesting fact.

Ellen White described Satan's "flesh" seen in vision, and also spoke of Satan's fearing for his life during the flood, which seems surprising, as how could a flood kill an angel? So there does seem to be some connection between bodies/angels.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 07:02 PM

The SDA aversion isn't targeted against emotionalism per se, but against emotionalism not supported by reason; that is, emotionalism for emotionalism's sake. But there's something definately wrong if we are not moved by the Gospel.

In theory yes, but I suspect often it has become "emotionalism for emotionalism's sake is 'evil', therefore lets not have any emotions at all just to stay on the safe side". Something simmilar to the Spirits gifts, "sometimes the gifts are faked, therefore lets stay clear of them at all times just to stay safe"...

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 07:22 PM

It seems Mark is needlessly trying to create a layer of thought. Unfortunately, theology is plagued by that approach because it has no new data and can only rearrange old data. That is the only way interest can be maintained.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 09:21 PM

On the contrary, Darius the Holy Spirit is always presenting new truth to minds and hearts. The heavenly merchant brings out things old and new. The light of the righteous is like the dawn, growing ever brighter to perfect day. According to prophesy, those living before Christ's second Advent will witness and be part of a blaze of latter rain light and an increased knowledge of God that covers the planet like the waters cover the sea. Our future increase in knowledge will be partly to recover truths that have been lost, but it will also be a glorious advance in our knowledge of God that will continually increase throughout eternity.

Someone on the forum recently suggested something similar to your idea regarding religious thought Darius - words to the effect that we pretty much already know all there is to know about God. The only way that could remotely resemble the truth would be if we had the intellegence of Lucifer before his fall. We are almost infinitely more dull than Lucifer in terms of intellect, and do you not think that his own understanding of God has dramatically increased in just the last 6000 years through seeing the plan of salvation unfold despite his best laid plans to thwart it all, and this is on top of the knowledge he gleaned in the unnamed ages that he existed and observed God before our times.

Sin has blinded his giant intellect. It is still gigantic. I tremble somewhat when I read about him under the symbol of Leviethan in Job where God describes him.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 10:47 PM

Is lucifer a sea monster?

Job 41
Ps 104:26

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 10:52 PM

Nice post, Mark.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 11:20 PM

Mark, do you think that the Spirit did not reveal that the earth orbits the Sun until Copernicus figured it out? Nothing has been hidden from man. Man has been the victim of his own limitations. When you think you have the truth then you will see nothing else.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 06/30/06 11:33 PM

Some of the old greeks knew the earth orbits the sun, unfortunately the medievals voted for the wrong greek scientist...

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 12:18 AM

Correct, Thomas. Ptolemy was well aware of Aristarchus' work. So the issue is not revelation but discovery. It always is. All we need has always been here.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 03:24 AM

Darius, you said, 'When you think you have the truth you will see nothing else'. I hope we're all students and have some sense of how little we know in all fields - religion, science, philosophy. Wasn't it Moses who after conversing face to face with God for 40 years as a man talks with a friend begged God to grant him a few more years because He had only begun to show him His glory?

What are the implications of having a spirit? I think this concept increases in our minds of the worth of a soul. It makes our ideas of the individual more distict and noble. It challenges us to not cover ourselves with fig leaves when we approach God because as spiritual beings we know that God sees us as we are.

In Christ's day, one of His main works was to cast out demons. As we've seen, there is evidence that angels, good and bad have bodies of some sort. And yet legions of evil angels can possess the mind of a person. What treatment are all, or nearly all persons with mental disorders given today? Mind altering drugs. In contrast, rather than further clouding the individuals only link to reality, his mind, with mind altering drugs, Christ fixed the mental imbalance. The spirit of the person might be gaged and bound mentally but Christ set him free.

And if the truth were told, unless Christ delivers us, we all are in a similar state spiritually to that of the demoniacs.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 03:59 AM

Mark, I am no more a spirit than my dog would be human. I could give all the virtures attached to my dog being a human and that would not make him human. God created spirit beings and humans. We are not spirit beings. All the speculative theories in the world won't change that. To insist that man is different from what God made him as is to deny the very essence of what God did. Bear that in mind.

Spirit beings can take on bodies. This does not mean they are body-bound.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 07:37 PM

It's a characteristic of angels, good and bad, to appear to us in different forms. We know that much from the apostle's exhortation to practise hospitality, his reason being that we might be entertaining angels by entertaining strangers. But although angels can change their outward form and are not bound by time and space (they can travel much faster than the speed of light apparently) this is not to say that they are free to leave their bodies at will or that they have no body.

On the other hand, it does seem to me that God is able to summon the spirit of a man and likely the spirit of an angel, to appear before him or to instruct him, in the body or out of the body at will. But the normal state of man and it seems of other intelligences is that the spirit plus the body equals the soul.

So when the scripture says that God is the Lord of Hosts, it's saying He is Lord of the various hosts, free moral agents, the Lord of spirit-beings. This concept rings true to me because it emphasises on the one hand the glorious fellowship that we are capable of entering into with God, spirit with spirit, and on the other, it is also a solemn warning of the punishment that awaits those who grieve away the spirit of God from their spirits once and for all.

Animals lower than man are fascinating regarding their spirits. Dogs are so human in their emotions; they’re so much like us. They give their affections to humans almost without reserve. They even have a conscience of sorts. But they aren't accountable spirit beings and my guess is that’s why Solomon says their spirits go down to the earth while the spirit of man goes upward to an unconscious holding state to await the final judgment.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 07:38 PM

What is the difference between being a spirit and being spiritual?

/Thomas

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 08:26 PM

Mark, you are committing the most basic logic error of begging the question. You have decided that man is or has a spirit and are using this information to prove that man is or has a spirit. That way you will prove your case every time. With absolutely no foundation you assert that the Lord of the various hosts is another way of saying the Lord of spirit beings. That approach is lamentable.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/01/06 09:30 PM

Quote:

yhwh sebaot. The meaning of the phrase (284x, incl. 18x with elohe added to yhwh and 5x in place of it) is much debated. It is usually translated "LORD of hosts" (NRSV), and is associated with battle (1 Sam 4:4; Isa 31:4), with the hosts identified with human or divine (angelic) armies. For the former, see 1 Sam 17:45, "the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel" (NRSV; NIV "the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel"). In texts where God calls judgement upon Israel, often through the use of foreign armies, they remain God's hosts in the service of a divine objective (Isa 1:24-25). The divine armies position appeals to texts such as Judg 5:20 (cf. Isa 13:4) ; stars (also called "hosts" with other heavenly bodies) symbolize the heavenly hosts, the angels of Yahweh's court that do his bidding (1 Kgs 22:19; Job 38:7; Ps 103:19-21), in war or peace. The association of heavenly hosts, in the astrological sense, with idolatry (Deut 4:19) may have been a limiting factor on this understanding in certain periods.

But one need not choose between these positions. Because saba (army, warfare) in the human sphere has reference not only to armies (1 Sam 8:11-12) but to other workers in the service of God (Exod 38:8), indeed to Israel as a whole (12:41), it may be that each of the above could be in view in one or another context.
Hosts has reference to any group, human of divine, called upon by God to mediate a divine objective, which may or may not be military in nature. The fact that the phrase occurs 251x in the Prophets may reflect the prophet as a member of the divine council (Jer 23:18, 22), and the word of God thus becomes a divine instrument, often for purposes of judgment (23:29). Another approach would take "hosts" as a plural of intensification or majesty, particularly in view of the LXX translation of hosts as "Almighty". But such an abstraction lacks convincing evidence.

Quoted "Dictionary of old testament theology & exegesis, volume 4; pp 1297-1298"

LXX=the septaguint

/Thomas

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 12:41 AM

You're right Darius that the phrase 'Lord of hosts' is scant proof of what I've been saying. I'm relying on the several other passages I've quoted and applying my interpretation to 'Lord of hosts'. As Thomas has quoted some commentators think it refers to 'any group, human or divine' and I've added my gloss 'any group, human or divine' of spirit beings. I knew that phrase was not uncommon in the prophets but to see it was used over 200 times confirms that it is one of the most important titles that scripture assigns to God.

I'd be interested though in hearing what John B and others have to say before going any further.

Posted By: Darius

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 12:57 AM

I don't believe this but I must.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 01:48 AM

Just because we can't see somebody doesn't mean they are not here.

There are angels all around us, however, we can neither see them nor hear them, but, if God so chooses, He can make it so we can see them, as the following text verifies:

Quote:

2 Kings 6:15 And the servant of the man of God arose early and went out. And, behold, an army surrounded the city, and horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, Alas, my master! What shall we do?
16 And he answered, Do not fear, for those with us are more than those with them.
17 And Elisha prayed and said, I pray You, Jehovah, open his eyes so that he may see. And Jehovah opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

They were there, but couldn't be seen until God opened his eyes.

Posted By: Steve Claborn

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 03:19 AM

we have no idea what the spirit of man is.... however that has not stopped us from spiritualizing the concept then defining it..... just my opinion....

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 03:39 AM

We should just mention that when we speak of the spirit of man, we are in no way alluding to any concept that the Halloween scenario of ghosts and hobgoblins presents. This has nothing to do with the spirit of man. We should not let the enemy’s wiles influence us to stupidity, but should understand fully where the issues are.

Scriptural meaning of ‘spirit’ has a vastly different concept; a spiritual concept.

Mark you brought out well: “spirit of the man is what pilot's his mind”. So what is it that pilots? We will never understand it physically, because that is not where it is to be understood. But we can understand it from its governmental function. Our spirit is the supreme governor that governs our soul. Aside from it, we can do nothing. Whatever spirit we are of, such will be the fruit. Now, having said the foregoing; it is important to note that the spirit of man is ‘independently dependant’. So how does this work.

As mentioned, will and faith are two fundamental realizable aspects of spirit or heart. The soul on the other hand is that which we have become, not inclusive of the spirit.
The will is the independent part, and faith is the dependant part. These are mutually interdependent. It is easiest seen in the perspective of sin and salvation. Both of these are spiritual realities.

So, the spirit’s governing largely consists of will and faith. The power of the will is “faith”, and that is the only power that the will directly governs. Without faith, the will has no power. We can choose who to have faith in; whom to believe. Now faith is not a set of beliefs or doctrines one assents to. Those would be beliefs or information in the mind, which would be religion and not spirit. Faith in this context is the “gate” or “door” (the network security controlling authority of what passes in or out). It is obvious therefore that whatever faith authorizes; permits through, becomes part of us. But “faith” is governed by the will, and that is the only thing that the will directly governs. This door is the door of faith.

It is important to understand that whatever is trusted; wherever our faith is, such will be the spirit.

A carnal spirit is the natural state of fallen man. Why so? Simply put, faith was removed from God and placed in one’s own judgment; the natural avenues of information to the mind which man is left with; the five senses would be the resulting source. Note, it is not the mind which is the source, but the five senses, and these are only inputs for whatever they happen to be directed towards. So the source determines the nature of our spirit. So while before the fall, the spirit of God was the source for man’s spirit, governing all the other inputs to the mind; after the fall, the physical became the source for the spirit, hence the carnal spirit and mind. Now in these avenues of senses, one may favor one or several over the other. So you can have the “intellectual”, “sensual”, “religious”, “temporal”, etc; nevertheless it is all carnal.

So, what is the spirit of man? The spirit takes the attributes of whatever we have chosen to have faith in. Yet once faith is placed, the spirit dominates the being, and the will and faith are part of it. And we know and see no different then our spirit perceives it. Now the Lord stepped in immediately to put enmity into this equation, so that we may be saved from this state. So, the spirit of the Lord strives with man’s spirit, the law (knowledge) establishes controversy in the mind, and the gospel is preached (the avenue of hearing) to reach us by the word of faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

In conversion, man, having heard the word of faith, exercises his will to believe God thus placing his faith in God, making God the source, hence subverting (breaking faith with) all things within himself, making them subject to God, resulting in the indwelling of God by his spirit in our spirit. Thus by faith the source is changed; that from henceforth faith is to permit and authorize (we will trust and accept as valid input) only that which is from God, severing faith with the old man, resulting in the union of our spirit with God’s spirit. Hence we no longer live in (do not trust) our understanding but the Lord becomes our understanding, and righteousness and life. Hence the new birth means a new spirit. Our spirit reflects then the attributes of His spirit making us his children, and the fruit of the spirit is ours.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 06:00 AM

Quote:

Darius: Spirit beings can take on bodies. This does not mean they are body-bound.

Darius, your concept of Spirit beings is a different concept than “the spirit of a being”. That is beings that have a spirit. I understand that when Mark spoke of Spirit-Beings he was referring to the fact that the beings have a spirit regardless of the kind of body. There are heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies. There are no disembodied spirits.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is impossible to worship God in spirit, if you don’t have one.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 09:02 AM

Quote:

On the other hand, it does seem to me that God is able to summon the spirit of a man and likely the spirit of an angel, to appear before him or to instruct him, in the body or out of the body at will. But the normal state of man and it seems of other intelligences is that the spirit plus the body equals the soul.

What evidence is there that man can exist without a body? How is this different than what non-SDA's believe?

Without a body, how could a man think? Without a brain, there could be no communication with man, sin all communication occurs through the brain. So even if the spirit of a man could be summoned before the lord, it would be mindless, like a man in a coma.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 09:19 AM

I'm going to substitute "mind" for "spirit" in the last paragraph of John's:

In conversion, man, having heard the word of faith, exercises his will to believe God thus placing his faith in God, making God the source, hence subverting (breaking faith with) all things within himself, making them subject to God, resulting in the indwelling of God by his mind in our mind. Thus by faith the source is changed; that from henceforth faith is to permit and authorize (we will trust and accept as valid input) only that which is from God, severing faith with the old man, resulting in the union of our mind with God’s mind. Hence we no longer live in (do not trust) our understanding but the Lord becomes our understanding, and righteousness and life. Hence the new birth means a new mind. Our mind reflects then the attributes of His mind making us his children.

I left out the las phrase "fruit of the spirit" because I didn't know if that meant fruit of the Holy Spirit or not.

The indwelling of God by His mind in our mind, or His spirit in our spirit, I understand to mean our accepting His thoughts as our own.

With "mind" in the place of "spirit," what is said in the paragraph makes sense to me. If "spirit" means the same thing as mind, or an aspect of the mind, such as the higher powers of the mind, or the portion of the mind that can apprehend and appreciate spiritual things, and those aspect of the mind related to these spiritual things, then this makes sense to me as well.

If the idea is that the spirit is something which can exist apart from the mind, then it doesn't make sense to me.

To say that God's Spirit dwells in our spirit to me is saying the same thing that Paul says when he says for us to receive the mind of Christ. Or to quote from the Spirit of Prophecy (maybe I should say "the Mind of Prophecy")

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. (COL 312)

This seems to me to be saying the same thing (regarding the indwelling of God's Spirit in our spirit).

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/02/06 05:29 PM

True, you have to have truth before you can worship in truth.
So, what is spirit?
What is truth?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/03/06 02:26 AM

If angels have spirits, (and bodies) and we are a little lower than them, is it a great leap to think we have spirits too?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/03/06 02:36 AM

A couple of members have voiced concerns about this leading to spiritualism if we were to view man as having a spirit. That’s the main concern for Adventists, but is there any cause for it? And what are the alternatives? Something guides our thoughts. What is it? Someone suggested the will and/or the mind.

If we use the scriptural meaning of mind and/or heart, it is true that the mind or heart guide the thoughts. “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.” But if we are referring to the mind as most modern people think of it, that is, as a thought-processing centre like a computer, then we’re no longing using the biblical definition of mind and/or heart and we are not answering the question, ‘What guides the thoughts?’. In the case of a computer the operator using software guides it’s ‘thoughts’ not the computer itself. So, in the Bible, the mind and/or heart do guide the thoughts, but what are the bible writers taking about when they use those terms, mind and heart? They are not meaning the ‘human CPU (central processing unit)’ that most people today think of when the word mind is used. Instead, aren’t they referring to the essence of the person, to his spirit?

If the Bible writers meant only the will when they refer to the heart or mind, then where are the elements that make us human – the refined and elevated emotions and bonds we have for each other. Emotions are not a matter of will. We feel them regardless. Our conscience may tell us our emotions are right or wrong, but what guides or enlightens our conscience? Not our minds in the modern sense and not our wills. The Holy Spirit enlightens us. Can we speak of an enlightened will? The will is only the power of choice. It is the conscience, the mind (biblical sense) the heart (biblical sense) the spirit, that has to be enlightened.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/03/06 06:21 AM

To say that the spirit can override or invalidate the mind implies that the spirit has some way of doing this, some sort of thought process (unless there's is some way of invalidating or overriding without thinking). How can the spirit think without the mind? Where in the human body is this activity happening, if not in the brain? If the only communication that can happen between man and God is through the brain, how could God communicate with the spirit of a man, if not by way of the brain?

To me it makes more sense to think of things like this:
a)All communciation between God and man occurse through the higher powers of the mind. This involves the will, the conscience, faith, the ability to appreciate spiritual things, and the ability to respond to the Spirit. These higher powers could be called the "spirit" if so desired.
b)No spiritual activity occurs that does not involve the mind.
c)Faith is an activity of the mind. By faith man can believe in the spiritual things which God communicates to him through the mind, and by faith respond to the Spirit of God.
d)The heart is the center of the emotions and where man does his deepest thinking.

The essence of a man is his mind. The mind encompasses all that makes a man a man. As a man thinking in his heart, so is he. The heart here is simply the mind; not the lower powers of the mind (aka the "flesh"), but the part of the mind that reasons, that ponders spiritual things, that includes the conscience, that responds to the Spirit of God, that makes decisions, that plans, that determines the principles by which one will live, that sets the priorities of life, and so on.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/03/06 05:07 PM

John, why shouldn't we keep going over the same things? I'm just trying to understand what's being said. If you presented Scrpiture texts with the assertions, along the lines of what Mark is doing, that would help.

It seems to me that a highly developed theory is being constructed without a foundation which can be supported from Scripture. I'm not being dogmatic about this. I could well be wrong in this assertion. I'm open to seeing this, but so far I'm just not seeing the evidence for the assertions. It could well be that you're seeing something I'm not seeing, so that's why I keep putting things in my own words and asking questions. If you have a better way of looking at things, then I want to learn it.

When I said, "if so desired," I didn't have permission in mind. Were you just being funny? Or sarcastic? I didn't understand the comment about permission. I was just trying to communicate my understanding of the terms.

You said that that which is in the mind enters there through the spirit and by the spirit. You say that all information is catergorized and priotized by the spirit. How does the spirit do this? You say there is thought process, but the thought process is predetermined by the "position" of the spirit. What does this mean? What positions can the spirit have? You also speak about the position of faith being changed. I don't know what you mean by "position." What are the possible positions of faith?

It sounds like you are saying that "heart" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably. Do I understand you correctly?

I think the faith I descrbied is saving faith, because it responds to the Spirit. For example,

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)

If we do not resist the drawing, the Spirit through faith procudes a new life in the soul. Not resisting means we are responding. If we respond, then the Spirit through faith creates a new life in the soul. This is describing saving faith.

To use the verse you cited in Romans, with the heart we believe unto righteousness. We perceive the love of God revealed at the cross, which affects us both on the level of reason and emotions. The belief, in the sense of Rom. 10:10, describes the saving faith which is the affirmative response to the Spirit of the things which the Spirit is revealing to us.

Again, it is not at all my desire to argue about these things. I'm just trying to understand the ideas being presented, and giving feedback to my own way of thinking, to make it easier for you to respond in a way that I may better understand what you're saying.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/03/06 05:09 PM

Mark, isn't the word "mind" used at times with a deeper meaning in mind as well? For example, "Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus."

It seems to me that Scripture uses the word "spirit" in many different ways, depending on the context.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/04/06 01:51 AM

You mentioned your Romans 5-9 experience paralleling Paul's. Perhaps if you sketched that, it might help.

I also see a parallel in my experience. What is see is that after I became an SDA, I saw that there were many things I should do, but I fell short. The law came and it killed me. Then I understood that Christ crucified is all I needed, and my whole perspective changed. I see this as what happened to Paul.

Also what might be helpful would be if you gave some examples. For example, the difference in the thought process of one who is spiritual vs. one who is carnal in terms of the elements you are mentioning.

I'm still wanting to quote some stuff from the "Repenting of Religion" book. I'm sure you'd like it. It has to do with our substituting our judgment for God's judgment starting at the TOTKOGAE. Hopefully I won't be too lazy to get at it soon (although the part I'd be quoting from first doesn't really deal with this theme, but it's still good stuff, as you'll see, assuming I actually post it)

Thanks for your patience.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/04/06 02:07 AM

I’m not clear on quite a bit of what John is saying. We agree man has a spirit. But phrasing it that way is probably not the best. I think what I should have been saying right from the beginning is that man is a spirit rather than that he has a spirit. The spirit of man is his essence – it is him. The body only is the house or temple he lives in. The brain is where the thoughts occur, but the spirit, the person, guides his own thoughts. (But he is only in full control of his thoughts if his spirit is fully submitted to Christ.) If we take mind or heart in the broadest sense, I suppose it is quite close to the idea of spirit, but even then the connotation of spirit is broader. The essence of spirit is conscious being coupled with moral accountability.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/04/06 02:23 AM

By the way, when I say 'the body is just the temple we live in,' I don't mean to minimize the problems caused by the flesh. That these problems are insurmountable without grace at every step is clear from the Romans 7.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/04/06 07:12 AM

Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/04/06 07:49 PM

Ecclesiastes
12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What is the "spirit" that returns to God? I believe it is the essence of who we are - a living record of our life and character and likes and dislikes, etc. This record and memory is preserved in the mind of God and restored to us when we are resurrected.

MAR 301
Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Mar 301.1}

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 01:40 AM

Good work MM. Someone may have quoted this one earlier, but I'm really glad you posted or reposted it.

She says:

"The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved."

If we rephrase this is would read "The spirit is returned to God to be preserved." So, she agrees man has or is a spirit.

Character here is more than moral qualities. If you look at the context, she is saying the character is the essence of the person, the indentifying marks of the person, the personality and everything that contributes to that - dispositions, emotions, likes, dislikes, values - in a word, character in this context is the person minus the body.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 01:49 AM

Tom may right that a spirit cannot be conscious without a body. I'm not ready to adopt a blanket position on it because one of the things nature teaches us is that there are often exceptions to the rule. It's not that the rules are being broken, it's that our theories haven't accounted for or anticipated certain things and so we call them exceptions or phenomina. Probably in most or all cases the rule being broken is only our rule, not God's or nature's. Even miracles, if we knew the 'science' of them are obeying the 'rules'.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 02:44 AM

In Ecclesiastes 12:7 one could argue that the "spirit" is nothing more than the breath of life because technically God doesn't "give" us a character, but in one sense He does because without Him we couldn't cultivate character for the kingdom of God. At any rate, the "spirit" that returns unto God isn't, as I understand it, something else other than character.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 05:06 AM

"The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved."

She would be listing it here; not restating spirit.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 03:12 PM

Christ as he grew from infancy to manhood 'waxed strong in spirit'. His character became strong. He became strong. Like Jacob who wrestled with God, he had power with God and with men. Character in this sense is spirit.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 04:31 PM

I think we struggle for the right words to use, but everyone would agree that when one dies and God resurrects someone, what makes the person what he is not simply the matter or chemicals that makes up his body. There is a personality, or character, or spirit, or whatever you want to call it, which makes someone who they are. The way each person reacts to different situations, what one finds humorous, sad, touching, the choices one would make in different situations, how one relates to God and men, all of these things are contained within the "essence" of the person.

I think Mark was using "character" in this sense, not in the more limited sense of one's disposition to do right or wrong.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/05/06 07:40 PM

JB: She would be listing it here; not restating spirit.

MM: Do mean she meant to say "the spirit, and the character of man both return to God"?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 04:29 AM

There is an interesting statement in the Ellen White’s writings to the effect that when the wicked are finally destroyed after the millennium in the lake of fire that they continue to suffer for so long as a particle of their body remains unconsumed, a process that will take days from some.

What is interesting about that statement is the fact that in order for that to be true, it would mean that the brain of the person would stop functioning yet the person would continue to consciously suffer. So, on the one hand her statement suggests that the body and the spirit do not separate, but both are consumed together, but on the other it would indicate that the person can have conscious pain even while the brain may not be functioning. I suppose God could arrange things so that the brain miraculously continues to function in the lake of fire and is the last organ to be consumed, but I’m not sure He would do something like that. It would also be inconsistent with the physiology of Ellen White's visions. If He does not keep the brain functioning to the last then we have one example here of consciousness outside of the brain.

Adventism teaches man is a unity and I agree that is the normal condition. But we should recognize that man is a spirit-being. That the Apostle thought it was possible for him to be in heaven outside of the body is fairly clear I think.

Tom has reminded us several times of Ellen White's statement that God only communicates through the brain. I think both can be true. The apostle may have been in heaven in spirit only but the vision was recorded in his memory. This seems to be what happened to Ellen White in vision. Her breathing stopped so no oxygen was nurishing her brain. It seems unlikely that the electro-chemical reactions necessary for normal thought were taking place during her visions because these need the benefit of oxygen to occur. But when she came out of vision and began breathing again, she had a memory of what she had seen. That memory seems to have been miraculously given to her. What she saw 'in spirit' was somehow transferred to her mind's memory.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 05:16 AM

What was man when he was created? Was he spirit or human?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 06:42 AM

What is interesting about that statement is the fact that in order for that to be true, it would mean that the brain of the person would stop functioning yet the person would continue to consciously suffer. So, on the one hand her statement suggests that the body and the spirit do not separate, but both are consumed together, but on the other it would indicate that the person can have conscious pain even while the brain may not be functioning. I suppose God could arrange things so that the brain miraculously continues to function in the lake of fire and is the last organ to be consumed, but I’m not sure He would do something like that. It would also be inconsistent with the physiology of Ellen White's visions. If He does not keep the brain functioning to the last then we have one example here of consciousness outside of the brain.

What you're writing here strikes me as very odd. God arranging things to the brain is the last organ to be consumed so the person continues to suffer? Here's the quote:

Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." (EW 294)

It amazes me that anyone would take this literally. Fire preying upon someone? Does fire "prey"? How so? The following quote found by Rosangela explains what the fire is:

“When too late he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides upon him. This is fire unquenchable. Thus the soul and body of every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed.” {18MR 74.1}

Adventism teaches man is a unity and I agree that is the normal condition.

Normal? Adventism teaches this is "normal"?

But we should recognize that man is a spirit-being. That the Apostle thought it was possible for him to be in heaven outside of the body is fairly clear I think.

You're misundrestanding what he said. He's not saying it's possible for him to exist outside of the body. He's saying he didn't know whether he went to heaven in his body, or if it was a vision. Not that he was a disembodied spirit that actually went to heaven.

I thought I already cited this:

Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 12 that he is not sure whether during his supernatural experience he was physically taken to heaven or whether he had a spiritual experience, a vision, during which the body was not as involved as it would have been had he actually been taken to Paradise. (http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-1555/story4.html)

I just quoted a little bit. The article goes into greater detail. Adventists do not believe that men have spirits which can exist apart from the body.

This seems to be what happened to Ellen White in vision. Her breathing stopped so no oxygen was nurishing her brain. It seems unlikely that the electro-chemical reactions necessary for normal thought were taking place during her visions because these need the benefit of oxygen to occur.

This is faulty logic. Moses was on the mount for a month without eating or drinking, sustained miraculously by God, just as Ellen White was, if indeed she was not breathing. Does this mean that Moses wasn't thinking?

But when she came out of vision and began breathing again, she had a memory of what she had seen. That memory seems to have been miraculously given to her. What she saw 'in spirit' was somehow transferred to her mind's memory.

She had a memory of what she had seen because she saw it in vision, which is an act of the mind. There's no reason to think she wouldn't remember her vision.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 06:45 AM

I am not sure Mark, what the point is about your trying to establish whether the spirit of man can be made to exist apart from the body, or by some other means. I certainly see no reason why the Lord could not give us any type of ‘body’ to suit the purpose. Maybe some people see themselves as ‘body-beings’, and I am not sure that seeing themselves as spirit-beings would help them any.

The only reason that I see this topic meaningful is in the light of sin and salvation; meaning: to understand the working of sin which is spiritual, and how that changes our spirit to enmity with God; and how salvation is to restore our spirit in harmony with God, so that sin would not have dominion over us; and what our place is in that.

Salvation is not a legal game of temporal works or failures. It is the salvation of souls, spirits from destruction to eternal life - meaning much more than existence.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 02:21 PM

John I agree completely that this topic is only important because it relates directly the spiritual nature of our warfare. That's why I initiated it and have invest this amount of time in it. We need to see that character, which is what is at stake, is often used by Ellen White to refer to the essence of the entire person, to his spirit.

Regarding the Review's position on the Apostle's vision, it would be better to quote the scripture. The scripture indicates that Paul believed it was indeed possible to be taken to heaven in or out of the body. The term 'in the spirit' is also used in other places in scripture and if we put the evidence together with the scripture and passages I've cited, we can come to the right conclusion, notwithstanding that some might see this as faulty logic.

Welcome Kabuli. I'm saying Adam, a human, was a spirit- being and that's what you and I are too. The issues of the Christian warfare are spiritual. We are not fighting flesh and blood.

6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Eph.

As spiritual creatures we need to fight intelligently in this warfare.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/06/06 08:46 PM

What is the "spirit" of a man? The Bible uses words like flesh, heart, soul, mind, and spirit to describe our mental and emotional and spiritual make up.

Ezekiel
11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Matthew
26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

John
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians
5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians
2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Hebrews
4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Peter
4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 04:59 AM

Where, according to Christ's very last words, was His spirit while He slept in the tomb until Resurrection Sunday? Wouldn't the spirits of all who die in faith be in the same place awaiting the final resurrection? Do those kinds of thoughts help or hinder the gospel?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 01:43 PM

Christ said of himself that he had the power to lay down his own life and power to take it up. Adventism has taught that the spirit of man is merely the 'breath of life' from God. That is an element of what the scripture means by the spirit of man, but only a part of it. The more important aspect from our point of view is that our spirits are us, our essence, our characters. Why would Christ, in His dying moment wrap his arms of faith about the Father and merely say to Him, Here is the breath of life that you gave me. Please take it back. If the spirit Christ was committing to the Father was only the life we all borrow from God with no personal identy, then there is nothing unique about our spirits and we (and Christ) would have no burden to see that the Father receives our spirits in safe keeping. But if in fact our spirits are our essence, our personal identity which are animated by the Spirit of God, then when we approach our final hour we would be quite interested in yielding our spirits to God as Christ did.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 01:50 PM

But here is the nub of the matter: If we yield our spirits to God consistently as we walk the narrow path here, when we reach the pass of the Jordan, we may be tempted to falter, but the Holy Spirit will take us by the hand and lead us through as we have yeilded to Him in our past experiences.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 02:22 PM

Just an aside here. I understand that, in Christ's case, His spirit was His divinity.

Anyway, this is what Ellen White says that happened:

"When He closed His eyes in death upon the Cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true—'I am not yet ascended to my Father'? The Spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven." RH, April 5, 1906. Cited by 5 BC, 1126.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 06:19 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 09:49 PM

You should to a better job of quoting. You're making it look like I said something Mark said.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 09:52 PM

Mark, this is a bit of a side issue, but I don't understand your position on Ellen White's vision or on Paul's statement. I've presented arguments on both showing why what you're suggesting looks untenable. You apparently don't find the arguments convincing, but I have no idea why not. The logic in both arguments looks to me to be sound.

We should understand that a disembodied human spirit cannot be. At the very least, there are issues of spiritualism involved.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 10:55 PM

What is your view on the nature of man Kubuli? You don't think he has a spirit? Did you look at my comments on the thread on the election. One of your concerns here is about spiritual warfare and that I might be overstating what our role is. On the other thread, you'll see I have a modest view of the role we humans have in fighting the Lord's battles.

I don't think I can add much more on the topic of Ellen White in vision Tom. I've stated that when prophets are in vision, scripture speaks of them as being 'in the spirit'. To me I think it means more than an altered state of awareness. But I agree that all the evidence indicates that there are no disembodied spirits because we all live and move and have our being in God. A spirit outside of the sustaining life of God ceases to exit. And as I've said, it looks to me like all intellegent life has some form of body.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/07/06 11:26 PM

I don't think that Christ had to receive a "breath of life" like other human beings. He was life in Himself. Divinity did not die, but it must have remained unconscious in the tomb. It did not go to heaven.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/08/06 01:40 AM

How can divinity be unconscious? Christ the human being had a "breath of life" like any other human being.

When EGW wrote "the spirit of Jesus slept," she didn't mean anything different than for any other human being. In fact, her whole point in saying this was to make clear that neither the spirit nor the soul of a human being has a disembodied existence. If she were speaking of Christ's divinity, she could not have made this point.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/08/06 01:42 AM

Thanks, Mark, for the response.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/08/06 02:44 AM

Mark, man was created as a human. He never was a spirit and never had a spirit. Man was never a spirit being. This is why he is out of his depths fighting with spirit beings.

Sorry about that quoting mix-up, Tom.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/08/06 05:34 AM

Good observations. I'm still thinking about it but your interpretation of the passage seems reasonable.

So what is the significance of Christ's final words, 'into thy hands I commend my spirit'? Since Christ had original life in himself, then he was referring to something else other than the breath of life, agreed?

Kubuli, what you say about being out of our league is one of my main points on the election thread.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/08/06 08:56 PM

Mark, if that is you main point there is no need to add to it this false idea of man being a spirit or having a spirit. It is always good to stick to what is true.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 12:32 AM

John, Tom, she has a point though about unborrowed life. Let's think about this a bit more.

Posted By: Will

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 12:38 AM

It conflicts directly with "Did Jesus die for our sins or not" You can't be partially dead.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 01:50 AM

Well, we can ask the question all we want. Truth is the Jesus did not come to die for our sins. There was no need for Him to die. It is impossible for the originator of life to die.

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 02:44 AM

Hello Mark, thank you for your kind greeting in another post.

Unborrowed life. The fuller context of this quotation, often lifted from Desire of Ages 530, is found in 1 Selected Messages 296-7.

"In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He can not earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world." - Originally in Signs of the Times, April 8, 1897. One year before Desire of Ages.

Thus said, all the redeemed will have 'life original, unborrowed underived'. Am I misquoting Ellen White? How readest thou brethren?

"He can possess it only through Christ"..."This is the open fountain of life for the world". Unless this writing has been tampered with (always a possibility), I believe she is declaring that this is the gospel message of salvation.

Therefore, by her defintion, if we are not preaching the hope of "life, original, unborrowed, underived" for every repenting sinner, we are shutting the "fountain of life for the world", and will be weighed in the balances and found wanting. Have we missed the boat? - Surely we need to study some more.

Gordon

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 02:58 AM

Kubuli, we make every effort here to keep an open mind but you've crossed the line. We cannot tolerate that kind of expression here which the majority of our members and the moderators and staff unanimously view as error and worse. For clarity you cannot express those thoughts - "Jesus did not come to die for our sins" - and while we are try to err of the side of good will, you may not be warned again. I haven't consulted with the rest of the staff, but I expect I have their support, if not on the consequences, at a minimum on their opinion of your statement.

It's no accident in my view that someone with your manners holds these views. I don't say that in insult. You’re a valuable person in God's sight. I'm hoping you'll see the connection between the two. For now, I hope you'll refrain from a biting reply, review your posts and take some time to reflect.

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 03:42 AM

Thank you Dr. Kubuli/Darius for a theologian's perspective. I remain grateful that an old colporteur long gone warned the young men of the dangers at seminary.

From my reading, only the Father has immortality. "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16.

The Son of God is differently described as that "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" 1 John 1:1.

The Son was ordained to die, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 04:00 AM

Rosangela’s comments are contrary to the intended message, in regards to the life and death of Christ, and I disagree with them. EW never intended to portray that Christ did not die, but, to the contrary, that he did, and did not go anywhere else. When Lazarus was called forth, his spirit was not summoned down from heaven either. He was called forth out of the tomb. Christ never had/has his “own divinity”; his divinity is his Father. Gordon has given the proper perspective regarding the nature of the unborrowed life.

I live by the Father

All things Christ received from God

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 04:40 AM

I should add Kubuli, it is one thing to be openly enquiring about a topic but another to be promoting an error that you're aware the forum has rejected. In the former case, we're open to all discussions with people who really are wavering between opinions. But if you're coming here to promote an error then this is another lesson in manners that you need to consider. For example I can't imagine going to a Roman Catholic site and making derogatory remarks about the pope. It is common courtesy to refrain from that kind of behaviour.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 04:43 AM

I would like to see the hands of anyone here who has a plan detailing what they will do if their child were to fall into a raging stream. The fact is you have no plan. Yet, I know that anything you will do is inherent in your love for that child even before the child is born. Language is a beautiful thing when properly comprehended.

Why did Jesus come to the earth? He came to rescue the human race and he did that through his life which countered the false views of the Creator that had been disseminated by the enemy. If he had come to die Herod offered a good chance that He passed up.

Gordon, if you are suggesting that Jesus is not equal to the Father you will have to take that up with someone else.

Posted By: kubuli

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 04:48 AM

Mark, I like the way you throw insults then immediately warn, "Please don't send an insult back in my direction." This is priceless.

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 07:43 AM

Yes Mark, I agree, the Bible teaches that man has a spirit within, which you referred to as character. A man is known by his spirit. We might call an unkind man 'mean-spirited'. Just as "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24), He is also a physical being. The "Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9).

Christ, the only begotten Son of God, "the express image of his (Father's) person" (Hebrews 1:3) also has a Spirit and a body.

Man, created in the image of the Father & Son, likewise has spirit and body. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) "In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature." Great Controversy 644-45. "When Adam came from the Creator's hand, he bore, in his physical, mental, and spiritual nature, a likeness to his maker." Education 15.

My only sure hope will come from the Bible definition of 'spirit'. "God designs that men shall not decide from impulse, but from the weight of evidence, carefully comparing scripture with scripture." Desire of Ages 458. It is certain that God's people of old understood the meaning of 'spirit', as did those of Christ's day. Why are God's professed people today in confusion?

Leroy Froom makes a "frank personal confession" in 'Movement of Destiny'. Forty years after the fact, Froom, noted SDA historian and author admits the sources for his book on the Holy Spirit, 'The Coming of the Comforter'. " I was compelled to search out a score of valuable books written by men outside our faith." - Movement of Destiny, p.322. He also presented the fruit of his research (from Pentecostals and others) in a series of studies he gave in 1927-28 to SDA ministerial institutes throughout North America. He wrote to a colleague of his experience "You cannot imagine how I was pummeled by some of the old timers because I pressed on the personality of the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Godhead....But the book has come to be generally accepted as standard." - Letter to Dr. O.H. Christenson Oct. 27, 1960.

Gordon

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 02:30 PM

I liked your comments Gordon on the evidence that even the Father and Son have a body.

On our achieving unborrowed immortality, while we become partakers of the divine nature, I see no evidence that we ever enter a sphere of unborrowed eternal existence. The four highest archangels who stand in God's immediate presence pictured in Revelation never have any life but what is borrowed. The river of life is pictured in scripture as always issuing from the throne of God. All living things are sustained by borrowing their life from Him.

It is looking like this area of doctrine is gaining the attention of people and it is showing signs of being in a state of flux. We need to be careful in our posts, thorough in our study and prayerful.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 05:22 PM

NOTICE:
As kubuli is actually a second registration of Darius, which is a direct violation of our forum rules, kubuli has been banned from any further activity in any forum of MSDAOL, therefore, there will not be any further replies under the username of kubuli.

It seems that all banned members were reactivated as a result of conversion, another glitch caused by conversion from UBB Classics to UBB Threads.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/09/06 06:33 PM

While Sister White wrote that "spirit" in Eccl. 12:7 means "character" it should be obvious from the context that it is primarily referring to the "breath of life". God "gave" us the breath of life - not character. Yes, our characters are preserved in the mind of God and restored to us in the resurrection, and Eccl. 12:7 includes this meaning, but the primary meaning refers to the breath of life. Also, the word "spirit" means many other things - attitude, disposition, intention, etc.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/10/06 06:07 PM

This is kind of an interesting thread. It's looking to me like no two of us completely agree, although much of what John H. wrote I agreed with.

I'd like to return to my question of some time back. How can divinity by unconscious? Even voluntarily? That doesn't make any sense to me. Could God the Father do this? Voluntarily be unconscious? The Holy Spirit as well? Can they take naps?

Regarding the life of Christ being underived, she also said of Him that He was "Jehovah, the self-existent One." Even though we could say that we also possess life, unoriginal, unborrowed, underived in the sense of receiving the life of God through faith, we could still not say of ourselves that we are "Jehovah, the self-existent One." We are not self-existent, so there is a difference in the sense in which Christ had life "unoriginal, unborrowed, and underived" and the sense in which we have it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/11/06 06:54 AM

What makes you think Christ's divinity slept with Him when He slept. I have to admit I'm in deep water here, although I did complete the course work for a Masters in Divinity.

The concept of divinity sleeping makes no sense at all to me. We are told that when Christ died, divinity did not die, and, indeed, could not die. I don't see how divinity could sleep either, by the same logic.

Christ was fully human and fully divine. Divinity didn't die, because divinity cannot die. Divinity also doesn't sleep, nor can it sleep.

Is divinity contained in a human brain? If it is, then why didn't it die when Christ died? If it isn't, how could it sleep?

I'm not understanding the siginificance of the quote you cited. I did notice something interesting about it, however. It shows that the wrath of God was not something God was doing to Him, but was the effect of sin, because when Christ won the victory and committed His trust to God, the sense of loss went away. If the wrath of God which Christ felt was due to God's doing something to Him, like being angry or hating Him or some such thing, the sense of loss wouldn't have subsided. Notice earlier that she said that hope did not tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice, nor could Christ see the Father's (not angry, but) reconciling face. So I see evidence supporting the atonement position of Waggoner and Gibson I've been presenting, but I'm missing the point you were wishing to make.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/12/06 04:29 AM

Tom, your views are similar to Darius'. We've reviewed them in detail from different angles over a long period of time and done a lot of study and the staff unanimously agrees that the main thrusts of your teaching on God not punishing, on Christ not making an expiatory atonement, on Christ not suffering under the wrath of God in our place and possibly others I can't think of right now are unbiblical. The members of the forum can look at the most recent examples of our dialogues in the New Light forum where we examined your views on whether God directly punishes and on the atonement. These are just a part of the in-depth dialogue we've had together. They can review the threads in this forum as well. (And while they are doing that they're welcome to review what I've said on the doctrine of the election. It is true, I agree on some points with Calvin but I'm by no stretch of the imagination a Calvinist. I agree with many points of Catholicism as well, but of course I’m not Catholic.)

In the New Light forum I suggested you voluntarily limit your comments on these things. I think it’s only being courteous to not scatter your ideas throughout a forum where they have been given a fair hearing and the staff are unanimous in their position. You’ve done us a good service by challenging our ideas, and I hope you’ll keep doing that, but not those ideas that have been reviewed and rejected. So, I’m asking you a second time to put yourself in our place and voluntarily limit yourself to things that have not been addressed and not continue to promote ideas that have been reviewed in depth and been rejected.

As far as the views of the ancients go that is no concern of ours. As Luther taught, the scripture is to be used to interpret the church Father's not the other way around.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/12/06 02:57 PM

You were asking about the connection between the thread and my recent posts on the final moments of Christ’s life. In His dying moments Christ yielded not only His will and His breath of life to God, He yielded His entire being, His spirit, His character. If this was the greatest act of His faith, then it is the pattern for us in yielding our spirits to God as well in our worship of Him. His example, His final legacy teaches the meaning of worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/13/06 01:34 AM

I thought you and Darius were close in your view of the meaning of the atonement. His view was that Christ did not die for our sins as our substitute. Isn't that a common belief between the two of you? I had a vague idea that Darius was quite a distance from basic Christianity and not in agreement with you on some things but I didn't know exactly where because I haven't followed most of his posts. That summary you gave of his views helps to explain things better. I knew you were dissimilar on some issues, but I didn't know how wide the gap was.

You're right though that you share most things in common with John. I thought that for a long time. But John isn't posting his views of no substitionary atonement in many places of the forum and I think he's set a good example of someone who disagrees on important points with the staff but is not evangelical in promoting the ideas we disagree with. I listed three things that were specific. Those are the main ones - God does not punish directly or kill, no substitionary atonement and the other one that I can't remember. The most important one is substitionary atonement which is the heart and soul of Christianity. I hope you and Rosangela will come to an understanding before long. In the mean time how if I ask you to follow John's example?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/13/06 02:36 AM

I thought you and Darius were close in your view of the meaning of the atonement. His view was that Christ did not die for our sins as our substitute. Isn't that a common belief between the two of you?

I have affirmed dozens of times that I believe that Christ died for our sins as our substitute. Darius believes in Universalism. How could he *possibly* have the same view of the atonement as I have? Think about it. To the best of my knowledge, my beliefs are the same as Waggoner's on this subject, as well as John B.'s.

I had a vague idea that Darius was quite a distance from basic Christianity and not in agreement with you on some things but I didn't know exactly where because I haven't followed most of his posts. That summary you gave of his views helps to explain things better. I knew you were dissimilar on some issues, but I didn't know how wide the gap was.

I agree with some of the points Darius made, regarding how we should investigate truth, and some other ideas here and there. But as I have affirmed many times, I believe in our 28 fundamental beliefs, which obviously Darius did not. I am an elder in my church. I majored in religion at Andrews and studied for a Masters of Divinity at the seminary. I understand Adventist history, and my beliefs are more in harmony with what our church traditionally taught than yours are!

On the question of justification by faith, for example, my view is *much* closer to what our pioneers taught than what you believe, which accords more with reformation theology, whereas our roots are Wesleyan.

On the question of the atonement, my beliefs are the same as what several of our pioneers taught, including George Fifield, and E. J. Waggoner. I haven't studied what Prescott and Jones taught regarding this specific topic, but strongly suspect that I'm in agreement with what they taught as well. Given how closely justification by faith is related to the atonement, I don't see how my thoughts could be different from theirs. Given that Ellen White endorsed their views of justification by faith, by the same reasoning, I don't see how my views could be different than hers.

You're right though that you share most things in common with John. I thought that for a long time. But John isn't posting his views of no substitionary atonement in many places of the forum and I think he's set a good example of someone who disagrees on important points with the staff but is not evangelical in promoting the ideas we disagree with.

Who started the threads I'm posting on? The reason John B. hasn't been posting on the Atonement thread is because he doesn't have access to that thread. John has posted his views many times, which is how I know what they are.

I listed three things that were specific. Those are the main ones - God does not punish directly or kill, no substitionary atonement and the other one that I can't remember.

I refrained from posting at all on the God killing question for a long time, and only finally posted because I was repeatedly over and over and over asked to post. This is not something I initiated!!

Regarding substitutionary atonement, I believe Christ died as a substitute for our sins. I have affirmed this many times. I can't quit posting something I never believed in the first place.

I can't comment on the one you don't remember.

The most important one is substitionary atonement which is the heart and soul of Christianity. I hope you and Rosangela will come to an understanding before long. In the mean time how if I ask you to follow John's example?

Certainly. I won't post on any threads I don't have access to.

Better than this, I'll do whatever you ask. However, I asked you to be specific. You haven't been very specific. For example, regarding the atonement, you have suggested I not post against substitutionary atonement. Of course I won't do this, since I believe Christ was our substitute and died for our sins.

You've also suggested I not post on God's directly punishing or killing, which I'll agree to. That is, I won't start any threads on the subject, and won't be "evangelical" about it. If someone asks me questions about it, I would tend to answer them, unless you don't want me to.

Also I don't think you should have a specific standard which only affects me. Post something publicly as a part of your rules. So far, the only specific thing you've posted is to respect our fundamental beliefs and the Spirit of Prophecy. I believe our 28 fundmental beliefs, and believe Ellen White was a prophetess.

If there are some views regarding the atonement, or other things, that you don't want mentioned, shouldn't that be publicly stated? Don't you agree that this is a reasonable request?

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/13/06 03:59 PM

Tom you were asking for specific rules. Rules are good at setting out a principle but they are only helpful as guidelines. We're asking people not to keep their letter but their spirit.

The crux here and in John's recent post is to ask whether our spirits are submitted to God and to each other. We can only answer that as individuals, but what a crucial question! It's an ongoing examination that only stops at the return of Christ. One of the main reasons I started the thread is to challenge ourselves with that very question - are we submitting our entire beings to God? Are we allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work?

Going back to the spirit of the rules, anyone can claim to be an orthodox Adventist. But the test is in how well the views of the individual harmonize with scripture. It is not whether you're an elder or a pastor or church leader that counts. If you claim to believe the Bible but post interpretations that conflict with it what good is your leadership position. Apparently the church you belong to does not find anything seriously wrong with what you teach. But you can ask the memebers of the forum and the staff if they find your many of your views in harmony with scripture. I think you know already what most if not all of the moderators and administrators think. So my request is to stay within the spirit of the rules.

I'll be going on vacation later today for a couple weeks and have no web access. When I come back I'll review Rosangla's progress with you on the atonement and if she is not finished, in consulation with her and the staff the forum give you a summary of the forum's findings on your views of the atonement and she can at the same time pursue that issue further with you if she chooses. I think you've already said quite a bit on your view of substitutionary atonement. We should be able to make a statement on that when I come back.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/13/06 05:57 PM

Tom you were asking for specific rules. Rules are good at setting out a principle but they are only helpful as guidelines. We're asking people not to keep their letter but their spirit.

Which is what? What exactly is it that you are wanting me to do? What specific rule am I not acting in harmony with the spirit of?

Going back to the spirit of the rules, anyone can claim to be an orthodox Adventist. But the test is in how well the views of the individual harmonize with scripture. It is not whether you're an elder or a pastor or church leader that counts.

The point I was making is that you are taking issue with my views as being unorthodox, but my views are less unorthodox than yours. You were questioning my position on the basis of orthodoxy, and I was defending myself on the same basis that you were challenging me.

Of course the bottom line is how things harmonize with Scripture. I believe my views harmonize with Scripture, and you don't. Similarly I don't believe your views harmonize with Scripture, but mine do. Isn't this going to be the case with any subject on which we disagree? Isn't the whole point of forums like this to stimulate discussion, so we can discuss things and learn from each other?

But you can ask the memebers of the forum and the staff if they find your many of your views in harmony with scripture.
I think you know already what most if not all of the moderators and administrators think. So my request is to stay within the spirit of the rules.

When you pick as moderators those who agree with the positions that you hold, why wouldn't they agree with you?

When you say to stay within the spirit of the rules, what rules are you talking about? What is it you wish me to do?

I've already several times that I'm willing to do whatever you ask me to do. It's your forum. You can run it however you want. I've just asked you to be specific in what you're requesting me to do, and to not have some special standard which applies only to me.

I'll be going on vacation later today for a couple weeks and have no web access. When I come back I'll review Rosangla's progress with you on the atonement and if she is not finished, in consulation with her and the staff the forum give you a summary of the forum's findings on your views of the atonement and she can at the same time pursue that issue further with you if she chooses. I think you've already said quite a bit on your view of substitutionary atonement. We should be able to make a statement on that when I come back.

My view on the atonement are the same as Waggoner's. If you're going to make a "finding," please include him in your finding. What do you think of *his* views of the atonement? I'm nobody.

Posted By: the1888message

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/14/06 03:58 AM

Is there some problem in what Tom has posted?
If so I cannot see where.
Are we not directed in the Bible(KJV) to bring our arguments before one another?
If we do not bring things to one another and show the differences how can we grow in understanding?
How can there be correction from the word of God.
I see many who write things here that are trying to sound as if they have some great theological understanding, while they over look a plain those saith the lord.
Remember we are warned about having “intellectual philosophy” by Sister White. 1SM 204-205

I may not agree with everything that everyone post and except for “Darius” where is the problem?

Why should there be a veiled censoring of Tom?

Peace and Grace
David

Posted By: Charity

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/20/06 05:30 PM

David, there is a problem with Tom's teachings. This thread is not the problem though. On this thread, Tom is following what Adventism has taught for many decades. I am the one here who is trying to show that our understanding of the nature of man in Adventism needs to be revisited; that man is/has a spirit. Our teaching on the non-immortality of the soul is correct, but in our efforts to uphold that doctrine we have held out our hands to steady the ark and made extreme statements on the nature of man that are not scriptural and that deface man into a non-spirit being whereas scripture teaches that were are formed in the image of God with both a body and a spirit.

Tom's teachings that the forum objects to have been discussed in many other threads in several forums and more recently in the New Light forum in the threads on whether God directly punishes and in the thread on the Atonement. We are very sensitive here to the need to promote free discussion of ideas. But let me ask you and the forum this: If Ellen White, who bore long with Kellogg and did not vigorously oppose him until the Lord directly told her to 'meet it' (meet Kellogg’s errors head on); if she had not said “this is false and must be rejected,” giving her reasons and calling on the church to take a stand, what kind of church would we have today? I can tell you it would be one that you would not be able to recognize. She knew that taking a stand would result in a division and that many valuable souls would fall under the influence of Kellogg's doctrines and not recover. This is probably the main reason she waited for so long for directions from God while the apostasy grew: She wanted as little collateral damage as possible.

I agree that we must have tolerance. Diversity of opinion is a sign of a healthy church. But we need divine wisdom to discern when a teaching is fundamentally at odds with the Word. Zwingli, for example, was bold in the Spirit to abolish the notion that the Lord’s Supper was anything but symbolic. Catholicism had taught for three centuries that the Priests reproduced the actual body and blood of Christ in the Mass. Luther didn’t see the need to take the issue that far. We agree with Zwingli today, but we respect Luther’s scruples and can see the perhaps God chose not to enlighten Luther on that point because the German people were not ready to take the step the Swiss did and if Luther had followed Zwingle’s example his influence would have been compromised at a time when it was needed to consolidate the Reformed church in Germany. But on primary points, on the essentials of the atonement, they were completely agreed.

Contrast this with Kellogg’s case. Kellogg’s doctrine was called the Alpha apostasy by Ellen White and it was a New Age variant. It struck at the root of the Christian economy by spiritualizing everything and thus nullifying the atonement. Adventism’s confrontation with Kellogg's Pantheism seems to have cured the church of its mystical tendencies in the same way that the Jews were cured of Paganism by their Babylonian captivity. In fact, we were ‘over cured’ not only rejecting the idea of a spirit residing in physical nature, but also of a spirit being imparted to man. It was the same with Jews. They were also ‘over cured’ and it wasn’t long before the Jews fell into the ditch of Will worship on the other side of the road. Tom’s teaching is a variant form of the Moral Influence theory (you can learn more by Googling that term) which to Adventism is a more formidable heresy than Kellogg’s mysticism, and is a variant on Will worship. I hope to be able to summarize my reasons for saying so in the Atonement thread in the New Light forum in the next week. For those with no access to that thread, after the staff reviews the issue I am hoping we will post a clear statement on Tom’s views of the atonement in a more public forum.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/20/06 08:47 PM

The view I am presenting of the atonement is the same view that E. J. Waggoner presented during the time when he was being endorsed by Ellen White.

For example, Waggoner wrote the following regarding Romans 3:24

A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.

The view I have been presenting was also held by other pioneers as well. For example, George Fifield, a contemporary of Ellen White's, held it. I strongly suspect A. T. Jones and W. W. Prescott held it as well, although I haven't been able to verify that as well. Given that they taught justification by faith the same as Waggoner did, and given that justification by faith and the atonement are so closely related, I would be greatly surprised if they differed from Waggoner's view of the atonement.

Here's Fifield (1897 GCB)

Every passage of Scripture that refers to the reconciliation or atonement, or to the propitiation, always represents God as the one who makes this atonement, reconciliation, or propitiation, in Christ; we are always the ones atoned for, the ones to be reconciled. For us it was done, in order that, as Peter says, he might bring us to God.

The only way to do this is by destroying sin in us. He took our sins upon him in order that he might bring us to God. It was that he might break down the high middle wall of partition between human hearts and God, between Jew and Gentile, between God and man; that he might make us one with him, and one with one another, thus making the at-one-ment, or the atonement. In Christ Jesus we who were sometimes afar off were made nigh by the blood of Christ, so that we are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth into an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." This is as near to the Lord as we can get. This is the at-one-ment; this is why he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, that he might do that for us by breaking down all those things which separate hearts from hearts, both human and divine. Notwithstanding this, we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. That was what we thought about it. We said, God is doing all this; God is killing him, punishing him, to satisfy his wrath, in order to let us off. That is the pagan conception of sacrifice. The Christian idea of sacrifice is this. Let us note the contrast. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That is the Christian idea. Yes, sir. Indifference keeps, hatred keeps, selfishness keeps, or gives, if at all, but grudgingly, counting the cost, and figuring on some larger return at some future time. But love, and love only, sacrifices, gives freely, gives itself, gives without counting the cost; gives because it is love. That is sacrifice, whether it is the sacrifice of bulls and goats, or of him who is the Lamb of God. It is the sacrifice that is revealed throughout the entire Bible. But the pagan idea of sacrifice is just the opposite. It is that some god is always offended, always angry, and his wrath must be propitiated in some way.

It is a great mistake to characterize this view as a variation of the Moral Influence Theory. It isn't. If someone would like to start a thread on it, we can discuss how Waggoner's view of the atonement differs from the Moral Influence view.

I would like to close by asking two questions. One is if there is any disagreement as to my claim that I am presenting Waggoner's view of the atonement. The second question is if there is doubt that Waggoner's view of the atonement, presented during the time Ellen White was endorsing him, is not Scripturally sound, or in harmony with the basic tenants of Christianity.

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/20/06 08:53 PM

Regarding's God's punishing people, this is not a subject I originated, and I declined to post on this for quite a long time, several months anyway. However, I was repeatedly asked to post on this, so I eventually responded. The current thread on this subject, which has been inactive as of late, is not one I started.

Also I should point out an error in the characterization of the issue. It's not a question of *if* God directly punishes, or destroys, but *how*. There is no question that God takes a direct interest in our lives, and in the Universe as a whole, and that God disciplines the righteous, and punishes and destroys the wicked. It should be clearly understood that I have never said otherwise.

Difficulties arise when one doesn't take care to carefully consider what a person is actually saying, and what they actually mean by what they say.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/20/06 08:59 PM

The idea that man has or is a spirit and body being sounds strange to me. If the "spirit" cannot exist independent of the body what is the point?

Posted By: Tom

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/20/06 09:05 PM

Could you clarify, MM? It makes sense to say man has a mind, even though the mind does not exist apart from the body. Why wouldn't the same thing make sense in reference to "spirit"?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: What is the spirit of a man? - 07/22/06 09:13 PM

Just as the mind, personality, or character cannot exist as an independent conscious being apart from the body neither can the spirit, however one decides to defines it, exist as an independent conscious being outside the body. I realize no one is saying otherwise. My point is - Why try to argue that the word spirit, as it is employed in the Bible or the SOP, means anything other than a synonym for mind or heart or feeling or attitude? The spirit of man is not a faculty or function or hardware, rather it is the byproduct of such tools.