Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - Maritime 2nd Advent Christian Believers OnLine Forums Consisting Mainly of Both Members & Friends of the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) Church

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/09/06 09:44 PM

“By what means shall the young man repress his evil propensities, and develop that which is noble and good in his character? Let him heed the words, ‘Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.’ Here is a principle that is to underlie every motive, thought, and act. Unholy passions must be crucified. They will clamor for indulgence, but God has implanted in the heart high and holy purposes and desires, and these need not be debased. It is only when we refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience that we are dragged down. Paul declared, ‘I can do all things through Christ.’” (GW 127, 128)

“Truth, precious truth, is sanctifying in its influence. The sanctification of the soul by the operation of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ’s nature in humanity. It is the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in character, and the grace of Christ brought into active exercise in good works. Thus the character is transformed more and more perfectly after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. There are broad requirements in divine truth stretching out into one line after another of good works. The truths of the gospel are not unconnected; uniting they form one string of heavenly jewels, as in the personal work of Christ, and like threads of gold they run through the whole of Christian work and experience.

“Christ is the complete system of truth. He says, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life.’ All true believers center in Christ, their character is irradiated by Christ; all meet in Christ, and circulate about Christ. Truth comes from Heaven to purify and cleanse the human agent from every moral defilement. It leads to benevolent action, to kind, tender, thoughtful love toward the needy, the distressed, the suffering. This is practical obedience to the words of Christ. (3SM 198, 199)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/10/06 01:49 AM

Quote:

The sentence before in the quote says that we are to reflect the light of God to others. The light is not ours. In doing good we are reflecting His goodness. Our righteousness is borrowed in a real sense. The moon and planets that have no light of their own, yet next to the sun are the brightest objects in the sky.

I agree with the reflected light illustration (pun intended). When you speak of borrowed righteousness, do you mean anything other than that our righteousness is not inherent or innate? If you say "borrowed," that conveys the implication of something which is to be returned, which is not really ours. But Christ is "the Lord our righteousness," given (not lent) to us.

I'm not getting a sense that we're disagreeing here; it seems just semantical to me.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/10/06 02:04 AM

Nice find on the poem.

Quote:

Lord, forgive these words of mine
What have I that is not Thine?
Whatsoe'er I fain would boast
Needs Thy pitying pardon most.
Thou, O Elder Brother! who
In Thy flesh our trial knew,
Thou, who hast been touched by these
Our most sad infirmities,
Thou alone the gulf canst span
In the dual heart of man,
And between the soul and sense
Reconcile all difference,
Change the dream of me and mine
For the truth of Thee and Thine,
And, through chaos, doubt, and strife,
Interfuse Thy calm of life.
Haply, thus by Thee renewed,
In Thy borrowed goodness good,
Some sweet morning yet in God's
Dim, veonian periods,
Joyful I shall wake to see
Those I love who rest in Thee,
And to them in Thee allied
Shall my soul be satisfied.

A little snipet of the poem. I tried googling this, and all I got was the EGW quote! I don't know what I was googling, because this time I found a bit more. Interesting, a site quoting this poem had this ending to it:

Quote:

So we read the prayer of him Who, with John of Labadie, Trod, of old, the oozy rim Of the Zuyder Zee. Thus did Andrew Rykman pray. Are we wiser, better grown, That we may not, in our day, Make his prayer our own?(http://www.gutenberg.org)

The other "borrowed goodness" quote was interesting too.

I googled "borrowed righteousness" a bit, but didn't find anything interesting.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/10/06 07:18 PM

Quote:

Tom, please understand that I am making a distinction between Jesus' implanted "traits" of character and developing them into "character" thereafter. Do you see the difference?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/11/06 09:45 PM

Does anyone else, besides myself, believe that the following quotes teach us that we are born again fully equipped with all of God's righteous traits of character? that not one is missing? that we do not accumulate them gradually after we are born again? Or, am I the only one?

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

COL 98, 99
New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. ... We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

TDG 186
The heart must be cleansed from all impurity, man must be fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God in any line. ... New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. {TDG 186.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 10/12/06 02:30 AM

The following two quotes also confirm the fact that we must crucify "sin in all its forms" before we can experience the miracle of rebirth, before we can enter into union with Christ. And yet the majority of SDAs that I know reject this truth. Why?

5T 46, 47
To effect the salvation of men, God employs various agencies. He speaks to them by His word and by His ministers, and He sends by the Holy Spirit messages of warning, reproof, and instruction. These means are designed to enlighten the understanding of the people, to reveal to them their duty and their sins, and the blessings which they may receive, to awaken in them a sense of spiritual want, that they may go to Christ and find in Him the grace they need. But many choose to follow their own way instead of God's way. They are not reconciled to God, neither can be, until self is crucified and Christ lives in the heart by faith. {5T 46.3}

Every individual, by his own act, either puts Christ from him by refusing to cherish His spirit and follow His example, or he enters into a personal union with Christ by self-renunciation, faith, and obedience. We must, each for himself, choose Christ, because He has first chosen us. This union with Christ is to be formed by those who are naturally at enmity with Him. It is a relation of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud heart. This is close work, and many who profess to be followers of Christ know nothing of it. They nominally accept the Saviour, but not as the sole ruler of their hearts. {5T 46.4}

Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers. After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ. {5T 47.1}

Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {5T 47.2}

5T 231
A union with Christ by living faith is enduring; every other union must perish. Christ first chose us, paying an infinite price for our redemption; and the true believer chooses Christ as first and last and best in everything. But this union costs us something. It is a union of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud being. All who form this union must feel their need of the atoning blood of Christ. They must have a change of heart. They must submit their own will to the will of God. There will be a struggle with outward and internal obstacles. There must be a painful work of detachment as well as a work of attachment. Pride, selfishness, vanity, worldliness--sin in all its forms--must be overcome if we would enter into a union with Christ. The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is that they try to attach themselves to Christ without first detaching themselves from these cherished idols. {5T 231.3}

After the union with Christ has been formed, it can be preserved only by earnest prayer and untiring effort. We must resist, we must deny, we must conquer self. Through the grace of Christ, by courage, by faith, by watchfulness, we may gain the victory. {5T 231.4}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/02/06 06:21 PM

How important is this topic?

Posted By: Charity

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/03/06 02:32 PM

It's vital. A good part of the forum is distracted and focused on the personalities of certain prominant television evangalists right now. This can't help but take their focus from Christ. If the forum was dealing in facts and acting on principle it wouldn't be suffering the way it is. As it stands now, a partisan spirit is undermining the spirituality of the forum and the participants - not unlike the political divisions that were fomented in 1888 when many Adventists were quick to seize on the faults of the messengers and miss the message.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/03/06 06:14 PM

That's too bad. I wasn't aware of how derailing the 3ABN issue had become. Hopefully Jesus will be successful in getting things back on track. Hearsay and sketchy facts are recipes for apostasy, eh?

At any rate, are you ready to resume discussing this topic? What do you think about the quotes and questions I raised in my last 4 posts? Are they relevant?

Posted By: asygo

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/03/06 07:39 PM

More important than figuring out what's wrong with people, we must figure out what's right with Christ and how to emulate it in our own lives. To that end, I'm ready to continue this thread. But I have to back up and read from the beginning.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/03/06 08:01 PM

I was reading A New Life (a SOP compilation) and came across this powerful paragraph:

NL 25
Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. He makes an end of the controlling power of sin in the heart, and the life and character of the believer testify to the genuine character of the grace of Christ. (NL 25)

When does Jesus do this for us? Before or after we are born again? Does He gradually make an end of the controlling power of sin in our heart? Or, does He do it immediately, the instant we complete the "process" of conversion, the second we are truly converted and born again?

DA 172
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. ... Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,-- a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/03/06 10:00 PM

Being born again means being converted, which points to a transformation. The converted person becomes a new creature, choosing to live for Christ instead of self. However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal. Of course, it wouldn't be possible to reveal all of our sin at once, or even more than a minascule part of it; there's simply to much. So the Holy Spirit reveals certain representative sins, and, as we are willing to cooperate with Him, reveals more and more as we grow in grace.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/04/06 02:49 AM

Tom, your explanation of post-conversion growth and sanctification assumes the Holy Spirit leaves us in ignorance and in sin. This implies that the Holy spirit is the author of unrevealed, unconquered sinful thoughts, feelings, motives, and behaviours.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/04/06 06:28 AM

MM: What? Your comment makes no sense to me. You must have misunderstood what I said. Please explain your thinking, or ask me for clarification on what I wrote, because there is a huge disconnect between what I was thinking when I wrote what I did and what you have written.

The Holy Spirit is in no way slack in His work, but shows us things a little at a time because of our shortcomings, not His!

Happy Sabbath.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/04/06 06:38 PM

Okay, let’s take what you wrote and look at each point:

TE: Being born again means being converted, which points to a transformation. The converted person becomes a new creature, choosing to live for Christ instead of self.

MM: I agree.

TE: However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal.

MM: I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not purposely withhold the truth from us because He thinks we are incapable of handling it. Character is the result of doing the same thing over and over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. No one can be unaware of such a thing, especially not someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

TE: Of course, it wouldn't be possible to reveal all of our sin at once, or even more than a minascule part of it; there's simply to much.

MM: I disagree. You are implying that we are born again with the majority of our sinful defective traits of character of intact. It is during the “patient, protracted process” of converting that the Holy Spirit gently reveals our defective traits of character. He doesn’t leave one single sinful habit unrevealed to be discovered later on after we are born again.

TE: So the Holy Spirit reveals certain representative sins, and, as we are willing to cooperate with Him, reveals more and more as we grow in grace.

MM: I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not intentionally keep us in the dark regarding certain unrevealed sinful habits of character. He doesn’t standby and allow us to go on sinning ignorantly until He decides we are ready to see the truth about our unknown sinful traits of character. Again, character is the result of cherished and repetitious thoughts and feelings or words or behaviour. No one is ignorant of how they think and feel and behave on a normal and regular basis.

According to the following inspired insight it does not require years of keeping us in the dark, years of allowing us to cherish and repeat certain sinful thoughts and words and actions, until the Holy Spirit thinks we are ready to know the truth about them, until He thinks we are ready to live without them.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/05/06 06:58 PM

In the following passage when does the miracle of conversion and rebirth happen? Is it before or after the sin-sick soul falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Jesus Christ?

LHU 273
The heart must first accept the truth as it is in Jesus. This is the foundation of true religion. Conviction of sin then begins to be felt; the sin-sick soul, feeling his need of a physician, comes to Jesus of Nazareth for pardon. Taking up the warfare against the enemy, he looks to Jesus for strength to resist temptation. He watches unto prayer, and searches the Scriptures. The truths of the Bible are seen in a new and intensely interesting light, and the Spirit of God opens to him their solemn importance. He studies the life of Christ, and the more clearly he discerns the spotless purity of the Saviour's character, the less confidence he has in his own goodness; the more steadily and closely he views Jesus, the less he discovers of perfection in himself. His self-righteousness disappears, and he falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Christ Jesus. He will be sorely pressed by the tempter, and at times may have feelings of discouragement, and be tempted to think that God will not accept him; but, taking God at His word, and pleading His sure promises, he presses through the darkness into the clear sunlight of Christ's love. {LHU 273.2}

It should be obvious that the sin-sick soul in this passage did not complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion until the instant he fell upon the Rock and was broken. But what about all the religious things he did before he was broken and converted? Can someone who is not born again do such thing? Or, is this what happens to sinners during the “patient, protracted process” leading up to their conversion?

Please notice how she uses the expression “fall upon the Rock” in the context of rebirth and conversion in the following quotes. Again, it should be obvious that the sinner in the LHU 273 text quoted above was not converted, in spite of all the religious things he was doing, until the moment he fell upon the Rock and was broken. Does anyone else agree?

DA 599
To those who believe, Christ is the sure foundation. These are they who fall upon the Rock and are broken. Submission to Christ and faith in Him are here represented. To fall upon the Rock and be broken is to give up our self-righteousness and to go to Christ with the humility of a child, repenting of our transgressions, and believing in His forgiving love. And so also it is by faith and obedience that we build on Christ as our foundation. {DA 599.3}

OHC 37
Do not merely assent to the truth, and fail to be a doer of the words of Christ. The truth must be applied to self; it must bring men and women who receive it to the Rock, that they may fall upon the Rock and be broken. Then Jesus can mold and fashion their characters after His own divine character. {OHC 37.5}

5T 518
And what has caused this alarming condition? Many have accepted the theory of the truth who have had no true conversion. I know whereof I speak. There are few who feel true sorrow for sin, who have deep, pungent convictions of the depravity of the unregenerate nature. The heart of stone is not exchanged for a heart of flesh. Few are willing to fall upon the Rock and be broken. {5T 218.2}

TM80
Those who are now first, who have been untrue to the cause of God, will soon be last, unless they repent. Unless they speedily fall upon the Rock and be broken, and be born again, the spirit that has been cherished will continue to be cherished. Mercy's sweet voice will not be recognized by them. Bible religion, in private and in public, is with them a thing of the past. {TM 80.1}

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/05/06 09:47 PM

Food for thought:

Truth is universal and absolute.

But

Salvation is personal.

Perfection of Character is a judgment.

If we judge perfection of Character by measuring up to absolute truth, we will be friends of Satan.

If we judge character in truth and grace we will be children of God.

If we make a universal formula of Salvation, we make Truth relative.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/06/06 06:09 PM

MM: I disagree. You are implying that we are born again with the majority of our sinful defective traits of character of intact.

No I'm not. At least, not the way you define things. You define sinful defective traits of character as being willful sins, not sins of ignorance. So I agree that when one is born again that one does not, using your definition of sinful defective traits of character, have such. Where we differ is that you seem to perceive perfection of character as being something which happens instantaneously rather than being a process, which is how I see both the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture presenting the topic.

For example, DA speaks of how God would have us renounce the selfishness which led us to choose Him. This is dealing with motivations we aren't aware of.

Another example would be DA speaks of how the disciples of Christ are not led to follow him by hope of reward or fear of punishment. But this is something which one grows into as there are many who are converted, born again, who are motivated by hope of reward and fear of punishment.

Another example would be COL "the Two Worshippers" which points out that at every advance step in our Christian walk, our repentance will deepen.

A. T. Jones, who was the one presenting "the message of God to the church of Laodecia" (from EGW) applied the Laodecian message to himself, and those to whom he was addressing; he was speaking to converted people.

So there are many indications (these are just a few) that our walk towards perfection of character is a progressive one. This doesn't mean that one must remain sinning while this growth occurs, however. John had the right perspective:

Quote:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1)

The idea is that we "sin not." But *if* (not "when" but "if") any man sin, we have an advocate.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/06/06 07:32 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/06/06 10:14 PM

TE: Where we differ is that you seem to perceive perfection of character as being something which happens instantaneously rather than being a process …

MM: I believe it is both. In the same way Jesus was born perfect and became perfect so too we are born again perfect and we become perfect.

It's not the same. Jesus never sinned. He had no sinfulness to overcome.

Paul spoke of “perfecting holiness”. That’s what I’m talking about.

This is perfection of character, a process.

Sanctification is a process that begins the moment we are born again. This process involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, and will continue throughout eternity. It’s an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from “glory to glory”, from “faith to faith”, from “grace to grace”.

If, as you believe, sins of ignorance constitutes cultivated defective traits character then we are in trouble.

I don't know why you so often misquote me, MM. It's mind-boggling. I've never said this.

Why? Because if we should die before the Holy Spirit reveals them to us we will go into the grave with them. The reason this is trouble is due to the fact that Jesus will not change our character when He returns. No one will go to heaven if they are resurrected with defective characters.

I do not believe sins of ignorance constitute character. They have to do with intellectual things such as which day is the Sabbath, what to eat and not to eat, when did Jesus enter the most holy place, etc. Such things do not constitute character. Character is the result of repetitious choices to think, speak, and behave in specific ways, and is related to what we know to be true and right.

What we know to be true and right develops as we learn more of the character of Christ. For example, one can become more attuned to what would be offensive to another person in terms of one's actions or words. Or some rationalization of a selfish desire can be brought to light, so one becomes aware of some selfishness one was not aware of previously. EGW alludes to that when she writes that God would have us renounce the selifshenss that first led us to Christ. When we were first born again, we were unaware of it. But when the Holy Spirit later reveals it to us, we should respond as God desires.

Here is some from Waggoner which discusses related ideas to what we have been discussing:

Quote:

Suppose that I have injured one of you; I may have been pursuing a systematic course of evil toward you--accusing you falsely, trying to injure you in your business, trying to provoke and irritate you in every way possible, doing everything I could against you day by day and week by week and month by month. By and by my eyes are opened, and I see the meanness of that course. I feel all broken down because I have lent myself to such a mean way of acting, and I come to you and acknowledge what I have been doing. You can see in a moment that I am all broken down over it and that I really feel that I have done wrong.

Some of us here have had occasion to forgive people who came to us in just that way. Now has it been our custom when they come in that contrite way to stand coolly back and let them tell the whole story from beginning to end and rack their minds to try to remember everything that they have done in detail, so that they may confess it? Then when they think they have told it all and ask for your forgiveness, do you stand back still and remind them that there was another little thing which they have missed and tell them that you would like them to confess that too? Then when they have told you everything that they can think of and that you can remind them of, do you say, "Well, I guess you have confessed it all, so I will forgive you"? There is not a person in this house that would do that.

When I settled that question for myself, I thought, I have no business to make myself out any better than God. When anyone comes to me or to you all broken down and confesses his wrong, we forgive him freely, and before he has told half what he might tell, we tell him that it is all right, that he is forgiven and to say no more about it.

That is just what God does. He has given us the parable of the Prodigal son, as an illustration of how He forgives. His father saw him a great way off and ran to meet him. I am so thankful that God does not require me, before I can be forgiven, to go back and take up every sin that I have ever committed and confess it. If He did, He would have to lengthen my probation longer than I believe He possibly can, for me to repeat the smallest part of them. Well may David say, "For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine heard: therefore my heart faileth me." Psalm 40:12. Yes, our sins are "innumerable," but "the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit"; a broken and contrite heart He will not despise. We take hold of the sacrifice of Christ, take it into our very selves, and thus we make a covenant with God by sacrifice.

The Lord forgives freely, and we can know it. God shows us the representative sins of our lives. Sins that stand out prominent--they stand for our whole sinful nature and we know that our whole life is of that same sinful character. We come and confess the sins. Shall we charge God with saying, "I have shown you those sins and you have confessed them; but there are some other sins, and I will not show you them, but you must find them out for yourself, and until you do I will not forgive you." God does not deal with us in that way. He is infinite in love and compassion. "Like as a father pitieth His children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him."(Emphasis mine)

This is from the 1891 GCB. Note his explanation of "representative sin".

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/07/06 04:57 AM

TE: It's not the same. Jesus never sinned. He had no sinfulness to overcome.

MM: It is the same. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. He overcame sin in the same way born again believers overcome sin – by resisting the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.

TE: This is perfection of character, a process.

MM: Beginning perfect and becoming perfect is another way of saying perfecting holiness. You cannot perfect holiness if you’re not already holy, right?

TE: However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal.

MM: If, as you believe, sins of ignorance constitutes cultivated defective traits character then we are in trouble.

TE: I don't know why you so often misquote me, MM. It's mind-boggling. I've never said this.

MM: Oh! Then what did you mean by “areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal”? What kind of character are you referring to? Character, by the way, is the result of repetitious choices.

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

5T 310
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {5T 310.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/07/06 05:05 AM

In the following quote Sister White makes it clear that when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion a “complete change” happens. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are “implanted”. We are “fitted with traits of character”. There is no hint that the “complete” and “thorough” change she describes is the result of gradually becoming less and less defective as the Holy Spirit slowly reveals hitherto unknown character imperfections.

ST 10-13-1898
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." By this parable Christ seeks to illustrate the work of the Holy Spirit upon the human heart. The process is invisible by which the leaven changes the meal into which it has been introduced; but it continues to work until the meal is converted into bread. So the leaven of truth, working inwardly, produces a complete change in the human heart. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The heart is cleansed from all impurity, and man is fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/07/06 07:55 PM

This is just talking about what Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about; being born again. Of course when one is converted there is a decided change. No one is arguing this.

Perfection of character is a process which takes time, not conversion. These are two different things.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/08/06 04:49 AM

Tom, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that the process of perfecting character includes the Holy Spirit keeping us in the dark regarding certain character defects until He feels we are ready to overcome them.

Whereas I believe it exclusively involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, nurturing and developing the righteous traits of character God implanted in us the moment we were born again. It has nothing to do with discovering unknown defective traits of character.

No one can begin partaking of the divine nature before they are born again. No one can begin the process of perfecting implanted character traits until after they are born again. The process of perfecting character begins the moment we are converted, and continues throughout eternity.

"This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." (ML 250) In other words, sanctification is the process of "perfecting holiness" - not unperfecting character imperfections.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/08/06 06:40 PM

Jesus Himself developed a perfect character. Obviously, therefore, developing a perfect character does not include the Holy Spirit gradually revealing unknown habits of sin, that is, cultivated traits of character. Instead, developing a perfect character means cultivating undeveloped traits of character. Jesus was born with undeveloped traits of character. No one is born again with mature, cultivated, fully developed traits of character. We do not begin cultivating sinless character traits until after we are born again.

3SM 133
In His life on earth, Christ developed a perfect character, He rendered perfect obedience to His Father's commandments. {3SM 133.3}

MYP 78
The early life of Christ was subjected to severe trials, hardships, and conflicts, that He might develop the perfect character which makes Him a perfect example for children, youth, and manhood. {MYP 78.2}

When we are born again Jesus implants within us all of His sinless, perfect traits of character. True, they are undeveloped. Nevertheless, the moment we are reborn we have His sinless, perfect character. We do not gradually accumulate His sinless traits of character one at a time. We are born gain with all of them. Not one trait is missing. Like Jesus, born again believers begin with perfect traits of character, traits which they must start nurturing and developing now and will continue to do so throughout eternity.

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

COL 311
Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. {COL 311.4}

ML 272
This robe, Christ's own spotless character, is freely offered to every human being. But all who receive it will receive and wear it here. {ML 272.6}

9T 21
Christ came to stand at the head of humanity, to work out in our behalf a perfect character. Those who receive Him are born again. {9T 21.3}

HP 18
Every promise is sure. Jesus is our Surety and Mediator, and has placed at our command every resource, that we may have a perfect character. {HP 18.5}

TDG 204
Christ did not leave this world until He had made it possible for every soul to live a life of perfect faith and obedience, to have a perfect character. {TDG 204.3}

When Jesus returns He will not change our character. Since our character determines our eternal destiny no one, not even those who are resurrected, can possess unknown and unconquered sinful traits of character. If they did, they would be unfit for heaven. Only those who have a perfect character can go to heaven with Jesus. It does not say all must have a perfectly developed character to go to heaven. Remember, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to continue perfecting our sinless traits of character.

CSW 112
In the word of God they are to learn that all who enter heaven must have a perfect character; for then they will meet their Lord in peace. {CSW 112.3}

UL 184
Christ came to the earth to give to men the pattern of the perfect character that all must obtain who would be welcomed to the future heavenly world. {UL 184.5}

MAR 326
The change from earth to heaven will not change men's character; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the character formed in this life after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {Mar 326.4}

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. {4T 429.2}

These inspire insights teach us that we are born again with perfect characters. The difference between people like Paul and people like the thief on the cross is how much time they had to nurture and develop and cultivate the sinless traits of character Jesus implanted within them the instant they were born again. Fortunately, by the grace of God, we are not saved based on our fitness for heaven; instead, we are saved based on our title to heaven.

FLB 116
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven. {FLB 116.2}

DA 762
The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. {DA 762.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/08/06 08:13 PM

By implanted character traits, do you mean something different than a change in our thinking? That's what conversion is, isn't it? A change in thinking? (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he).

Also, what's a defective trait of character? EGW speaks of character in terms of the trend of one's life. Is this what you have in mind? Or something else?

In terms of what happens during sanctification, I think of the following statement from Ellen White:

Quote:

The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love.(DA 200)

Note she uses the word "us," thus including herself in God's work in our hearts. So this is counsel is dealing with those who are converted. Does this fit with what you have been sharing?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/09/06 05:34 AM

TE: By implanted character traits, do you mean something different than a change in our thinking? That's what conversion is, isn't it? A change in thinking? (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he).

MM: Many things happen to us the moment we are converted and born again. New thinking is only part of what happens to us.

COL 98-100
The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

SC 60
If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? {SC 60.2}

TE: Also, what's a defective trait of character? EGW speaks of character in terms of the trend of one's life. Is this what you have in mind? Or something else?

MM: We inherit defective traits of character from our parents. We do not, however, inherit their character. We inherit their traits. Character is the result of repetitiously choosing sinful thoughts, words, or actions. As we cherish certain sins over and over again we develop corresponding traits. The sum total of such nurtured traits is called character. When we are born again God implants new traits of character within us. Then we spend the rest of eternity developing them unto perfection.

TE: Note she uses the word "us," thus including herself in God's work in our hearts. So this is counsel is dealing with those who are converted. Does this fit with what you have been sharing?

MM: According to the context of your quote, the nobleman and his family were converted sometime after the son was healed. He was selfish and unconverted when he first sought Jesus for healing. This is not how truly born again believers behave toward Jesus.

DA 200
The father hurries on to greet his son. He clasps him to his heart as one restored from the dead, and thanks God again and again for this wonderful restoration. {DA 200.1}

The nobleman longed to know more of Christ. As he afterward heard His teaching, he and all his household became disciples. Their affliction was sanctified to the conversion of the entire family. … {DA 200.2}

He who blessed the nobleman at Capernaum is just as desirous of blessing us. But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. … {DA 200.3}

The nobleman wanted to see the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. … {DA 200.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/09/06 10:01 AM

1.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. So as we think, we are. So whatever would be missing would have to be something which isn't a part of us, which is impossible.

Another way of seeing that right thinking (including the right action of the will) encompasses everything is that from our thoughts arise our desires, our choices, our actions; everything. So if God can get us to think right, the battle is won.

2.How do you define "trait"? You seem to be mixing two different things in your use of "trait". On the one hand you use it to refer to things inherited, and on the other you use it to refer to being converted. But being converted doesn't change our heredity. It changes our mind (that is, our thinking) not our genes.

3.The context of "us" does not include the nobleman, of course. How could "us" include the nobleman, who had been dead a couple of thousand years, at the point when Ellen White wrote her counsel to us?

"Us" refers, obviously, to the author and her readers, who would presumably be converted (the author was converted, right?)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/09/06 07:54 PM

TE: … from our thoughts arise our desires, our choices, our actions; everything. So whatever would be missing would have to be something which isn't a part of us, which is impossible.

MM: Yes, right thinking is important. But I do not agree that it is the source of everything else. Desires, choices, and actions are distinct and separate. The will, not the faculties of the mind or the body, is the governing power in man. Our lower powers are the source of our appetites and passions. They generate and communicate innocent and legitimate needs. It is our fallen flesh nature that intercepts them, perverts them, and transmits them as unholy thoughts and feelings, which are initially nothing more than temptations. Through the exercise of sanctified willpower we cherish and cultivate holy appetites and passions. As we repeatedly do this we develop sinless traits of character.

2MCP 685
The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience.--5T 513 (1889). {2MCP 685.1}

2MCP 685
This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {2MCP 685.3}

2MCP 693
Our will is to be yielded to Him that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power.--MB 61, 62 (1896). {2MCP 693.4}

2MCP 694
You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. {2MCP 694.2}

TE: How do you define "trait"?

MM: A character trait refers to a specific attribute of character – love, faith, kindness, patience, compassion, etc. We inherit the traits common to mankind from our parents. Unfortunately they are perverted and sinful. But when we are born again, God implants within us the fruits of the Spirit, namely, His righteous attributes of character. “New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. … We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God.” (COL 98) God doesn’t simply modify our old man sinful traits of character. “The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.” (DA 172)

COL 300
They expel the spirit of murmuring and complaint, and the tempter loses ground. They cultivate those attributes of character which will fit the dwellers on earth for the heavenly mansions. {COL 300.1}

RC 200
He who seeks to serve others by self-denial and self-sacrifice will be given the attributes of character that commend themselves to God, and develop wisdom, true patience, forbearance, kindness, compassion. This gives him the chiefest place in the kingdom of God.--Manuscript 165, 1898. {RC 200.6}

COL 358
Into every action of life we are to weave faithfulness and loyalty, cultivating the attributes that will enable us to accomplish the work. {COL 358.3}

COL 388
He permits us to come in contact with suffering and calamity in order to call us out of our selfishness; He seeks to develop in us the attributes of His character--compassion, tenderness, and love. {COL 388.3}

UL 347
God requires obedience, not for the purpose of showing His authority, but that we may become one with Him in character. We will find in God the attributes of character needed to form characters after His likeness. We are to form characters that are in harmony with the Deity. Thus our natures become spiritualized in every faculty. {UL 347.5}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

TE: "Us" refers, obviously, to the author and her readers, who would presumably be converted (the author was converted, right?)

MM: I disagree that she intended for us to assume she was, like the unconverted nobleman, withholding faith and belief in Jesus until He consented to answer her selfish prayer requests.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/10/06 07:06 PM

Perfecting holiness begins after we are born again, after our old man habits of sinning have been crucified, after we have been cleansed from all filthiness. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit slowly revealing, one or two at a time, to us unknown defective traits of character. This He does during the "patient, protracted process" of conversion before we consent to be born again.

True, the Holy Spirit may introduce us to specific dormant traits of character that reside within us, in order to prepare us for a new field of labor, but all such dormant traits are undeveloped. They do not count against us as character. We are not guilty of nurturing them. We did not turn them into character by repeatedly acting them out. There are dormant.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

FLB 140
Holiness is not rapture: it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in the light; it is walking by faith and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence, and resting in His love. {FLB 140.3}

5T 272
Instead of simply censuring yourself for your defects, you censure the circumstances and occasions which led you to develop the traits in your character which lie dormant or hid beneath the surface unless something arises to disturb and arouse them to life and action. Then they appear in all their deformity and strength. {2T 571.3}

4T 84
To men whom God designs shall fill responsible positions, He in mercy reveals their hid-den defects, that they may look within and examine critically the complicated emotions and exercises of their own hearts, and detect that which is wrong; thus they may modify their dispositions and refine their manners. {4T 84.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/10/06 07:30 PM

"As a man thinking in his heart, so is he." Given that this constitutes what a man is, it's difficult for me to see that Jesus missed something here. The will is connected to our thinking. We reach decisions based on what we think. If the will is disconnected from right thinking, as you seem to be implying, then what is it that determines what we do MM?

Regarding traits, I understand the implanting which takes place when one is born again as having to do with our thinking changing. For example, we have the following description from COL:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.(COL 312)

I see this as speaking of the same thing as the implanted traits. Do you agree with this, MM? Or do you think this paragraph here is dealing with something other than the statement about implanted traits when one is born again?

For example, let's take a look at one of the quotes you mentioned:

Quote:

He permits us to come in contact with suffering and calamity in order to call us out of our selfishness; He seeks to develop in us the attributes of His character--compassion, tenderness, and love. (COL 388)

I understand this to be saying that as we behold Christ and learn of Him, we will be transformed into the same image. I understand that the traits she mentioned -- compassion, tenderness, and love -- all have to do with right thinking. Indeed, I don't see how these traits can be understood as not having to do with thought.

Regarding our renouncing our selfishness, here's the quote again:

Quote:

She is not speaking of the nobleman here, but of "us," which includes herself and her readers. She took a principle from the nobleman's experience and applied it to her readers and herself. She is not implying that either she herself or her readers are not converted. She is saying that God would have us renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him, "us" meaning "you and I" where the "I" would be the one writing, Ellen White and the "you" would be the reader of what she wrote. The Nobleman, being dead, is not included in the "us."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/11/06 12:03 AM

TE: If the will is disconnected from right thinking, as you seem to be implying, then what is it that determines what we do MM? … I understand that the traits she mentioned -- compassion, tenderness, and love -- all have to do with right thinking. Indeed, I don't see how these traits can be understood as not having to do with thought.

MM: Thoughts and feelings combined constitute character. “If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character.” (5T 310) Right thinking is only part of the equation. Again, the will, not right thinking, is the power that governs all other faculties, including right thinking. Character is the compilation of cultivated traits. Undeveloped traits do not count as character.

5T 513
Pure religion has to do with the will. The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the incli-nation, but it is the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience. {5T 513.1}

TE: She is saying that God would have us renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him, "us" meaning "you and I" where the "I" would be the one writing, Ellen White and the "you" would be the reader of what she wrote. The Nobleman, being dead, is not included in the "us."

MM: Such selfishness is expelled from the heart when we are born again. It does not exist in the hearts of those who are truly born again. True, selfishness is a natural trait we all possess, but in the cases of born again believers it resides in sinful flesh nature, not in their hearts. In Christ they keep it under the control of a sanctified will and mind. In Christ they do not allow it to resurface.

LHU 292
All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

OHC 287
The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. {OHC 287.4}

SD 334
Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. If you are truly converted to God, you will exert a strong and telling influence on the side of truth. {SD 334.3}

MM 46
Selfishness must be expelled from the soul. The heart must be purified from all envy, all evil surmising. Believers must constantly receive and impart the love of God. {MM 46.1}

FLB 140
It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/12/06 05:02 AM

MM, please tell me how you can divorce the will from thinking. How exactly is it that you think the will is exercised, if not by thought?

Quote:

Such selfishness is expelled from the heart when we are born again. It does not exist in the hearts of those who are truly born again. True, selfishness is a natural trait we all possess, but in the cases of born again believers it resides in sinful flesh nature, not in their hearts. In Christ they keep it under the control of a sanctified will and mind. In Christ they do not allow it to resurface.

Here's what she wrote:

Quote:

This is obviously referring to born again persons, as it says he delays the answer to "our" request that He may show "us" our need of his grace; desiring "us" to renounce the selfishness that leads "us" to "seek Him." This is dealing with people (i.e. "us" , her readers and herself) who are seeking Him. People not born again would not be:

a.Seeking Christ
b.Reading the Desire of Ages
c.Include Ellen White

It is certainly possible that the groups in a. and b could include individuals who are not born again, but one would certainly not expect that to be the case. That is, it is obvious that Ellen White's intention in using "us" is to include persons who are born again, which appears not to be agreeing with your conception of things.

The selfishness of which Ellen White refers to is not active selfishness. As you point out, this is dealt with when one is born again. It is dealing of that which is in us of which we are unaware. God wants us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to follow Him. Surely we cannot do this as long as we are unaware of it. So the first step is for us to become aware of this selfishness. Recognizing that there exists the possibility that this selfishness could exist in us is a first step. If we take the position, contrary to what EGW has written, that it is impossible for there to be any selfishness in us to be revealed, I think we're making a bad mistake, and perhaps a dangerous one.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/13/06 11:29 PM

Tom, which one of the 5 quotes that I posted above teach us that we are born again with unknown selfishness that must be overcome a little at a time after we are born again?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/14/06 01:42 AM

MM, that's a strange question. You were showing quotes to present a point of view you hold. I presented a quote to show a shortcoming in your view. Surely you are clever enough to come up with quotes which do not say something contrary to what you are thinking. So why should I expect one of the quotes you presented to show something contrary to what you think?

The issue isn't if there is something in EGW's writings which does not deal with a certain issue (in this case, renouncing selfishness), but if there *are* things in her writings which deal with this subject. There are; specifically the quote I presented:

Quote:

Christ desires us to "renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him." "Our" refers to:

a.Ellen White
b.Her readers

(it doesn't include the nobleman; he dead.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/14/06 05:57 PM

Tom, I find it difficult to believe that Sister White, while writing the DA, was guilty of seeking Jesus for selfish, sinful reasons. And, I find it hard to believe that the following inspired insight excludes born again believers seeking Jesus for selfish reasons:

"The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart."

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/14/06 07:14 PM

On the DA quote, regardless of whether you find it hard to believe or not, that's what she wrote.

The selfishness referred to in the other quote is known selfishness. The DA quote is dealing with selfishness of which we are unaware. The Savior delays the answer to our requests in order to make this known; that was her point. We can hardly renounce something of which we are unaware. Of course the non-born again person is not seeking Christ at all, so the quote doesn't refer to the unconverted. And again, she speaks of "us," which, of course, includes her, the "I" in "us."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/15/06 06:34 PM

Thank you for making your point clear. Again, you believe Sister White, while writing the DA, was guilty of having unknown "evil" and "selfishness" in her heart. Did she also die in this evil, selfish state?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/16/06 03:18 AM

Ellen White wrote, "The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him."

I don't see a problem with this. We are not "guilty," as you put it, for things we don't know about (unless we are willingly ignorant). Ellen White wrote that from an early age (maybe 13), as soon as she was aware of God's will, she was willing to do it. God doesn't ask any more than this. Ellen White wasn't "guilty" of anything.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/16/06 06:04 PM

Unknown evil in our hearts that causes God to delay answering our prayers because we seek Him for selfish reasons.

1. Can you name some examples of unknown evil and selfishness that still remained in the heart of Sister White after serving Jesus for over 50 years? Which is how long she had been serving Jesus by the time she wrote the DA.

2. Also, why didn't the Holy Spirit reveal them to her? Why did He allow her to retain evil and selfishness in her heart for so many years?

3. Did He reveal them to her before she died? Or, did He let her retain them until she died?

Posted By: charis

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/16/06 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Unknown evil in our hearts that causes God to delay answering our prayers because we seek Him for selfish reasons.

If it is unknown, then how do you know you have it?

(I'm not trying to be snarky....just don't understand how the logic goes from *delayed answer from God* is caused by *seeking for selfish reasons* which is caused by *unknown evil in our hearts*... which we cannot know because it is *unknown.*

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/16/06 10:42 PM

MM, the questions you're asking miss the point. The point isn't "why?" or "what?" were these things which, frankly, are none of our business, but that she did write:

Quote:

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/17/06 06:38 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/17/06 11:32 PM

Charis, that's my point. I disagree with Tom's take on the DA quote he keeps posting. I do not believe the Holy Spirit keeps us in the dark regarding so-called unknown evil and selfishness in our hearts - especially not for 50 plus years, as in the case of Tom's example concerning Sister White. I believe the "us" in the DA quote refers to the human race in general. I do not believe it refers to born again believers. I believe it refers to people like the "nobleman" described in the context of the DA quote. I do not believe we are born again ignorant of evil or selfishness.

How do you see it?

Just to be clear, I don't believe this way of phrasing things is accurate. If one says, "the Holy Spirit keeps us in the the dark," that makes it sound like God is not doing something He could do, as if He were capriciously being negligent. But that's not EGW's idea at all in the DA quote. The quote brings out that God *is* working, and working to show us the truth, not working to keep us in the dark.

Quote:

Here we see that God *longs* to give us a greater blessing. The problem is not negligence on God's part; it's not that the Holy Spirit "keeps us in the dark." She writes, "As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul." (2/12/94)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/18/06 08:22 AM

Tom, do you believe the Holy Spirit purposely chooses not to reveal "evil" and "selfishness" in the hearts of born again believers until they are able to bear it? If it is not the Holy Spirit hiding it from them, then who is it? Who is responsible for making it known to them? Why don't they know about the evil and selfishness in their hearts?

Do you have any hypothetical examples of so-called unknown evil and selfishness in the hearts of believers, in particular in the hearts of seasoned vets like Sister White? You have dodged this question once already. Please resist doing it again. Please name some forms of evil or selfishness that can exist unknown in the heart of someone like Sister White.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/18/06 08:44 AM

Why do you wish to put things in a way which implies that God is somehow at fault? I find that very odd.

I agree with what Ellen White wrote, in the DA quote, and here: "As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul." There is no shortcoming on God's part. To the extent that we do not know truth we could have known, we have only ourselves to blame. God dispenses truth as quickly as He can.

Arrogance is an example that comes to mind of an unknown sin one can have. Blindness as to one's shortcomings and need for grace is another.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/18/06 07:16 PM

TE: Arrogance is an example that comes to mind of an unknown sin one can have. Blindness as to one's shortcomings and need for grace is another.

MM: Tom, it is surprising to me that you can say someone like Sister White can be guilty of arrogance and blindness after serving the Lord faithfully for over 50 years.

How can someone like Sister White be guilty of arrogance and blindness? What is the root of such sins?

Posted By: charis

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 07:05 AM

I think everyone is on an individual path to God. Some paths are lighter. Some are darker... And everyone is at a different stage in his/her path.

I like to think that I am *born again* - but that did not give me automatic knowledge to know what my unknown sins are ..... and I'm sure I have many.

Personally, I do not think God, in His mercy, would reveal all of them to me - not all at once. it would be cruel.

It is my perception that God *longs* to have me at a point where He CAN give me all the blessings that He wants. But, again, in His mercy, He is keeping pace with me and my stumblings and falls, and showing me at the *right* times the things I need to work on - those unknown sins of mine.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 12:01 PM

MM, here's what you asked:

Quote:

Do you have any hypothetical examples of so-called unknown evil and selfishness in the hearts of believers, in particular in the hearts of seasoned vets like Sister White? You have dodged this question once already. Please resist doing it again.

I gave a hypothetical example for a "seasoned vet" as you put it.

I don't see how long someone has been serving the Lord has to do with blindness, and arrogance. Surely you're aware of what happened in 1888. Virtually all of our leadership, the whole lot of them "seasoned vets," were guilty of this.

I'm surprised you would be surprised at my response when we have so many examples of this. I'm assuming you are aware of the 1888 history, and the cases I'm talking about. If you're not, I suggest you read Ellen White's letters from the 1888 Materials released by the EGW Estate and available on line. She wrote over 2,000 pages on this. There are many examples, not hypothetical, of exactly what we're talking about here.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 12:05 PM

charis, I see things just as you have stated. God is merciful, kind and patient with us. Thankfully so. He gives us light and truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it, but no faster. As the Psalmist says,

Quote:

He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. (Ps. 103: 10-13)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 08:41 PM

C: Personally, I do not think God, in His mercy, would reveal all of them to me - not all at once. it would be cruel.

MM: Charis, what do you think Sister White means in the following quote? Please realize that I’m not asking you to agree with her. I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us as we’re ready.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. (SC 29)

MM: And, what do you think she means in the following quote? I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us during the patient, protracted process that leads to conversion and rebirth.

EGW: The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. (DA 172)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 09:03 PM

Tom, is it possible for a born again believer to become unborn again? The following letter to Brother G plainly teaches it is possible to become unborn again. Do you think it is possible that the same might apply to the 1888 leaders you mentioned?

4T 90
Dear brother, God in His providence brought you from your farm to ----- to bear the tests and trials which you could not have where you were. He has given you some testimonies of reproof, which you professedly accepted; but your spirit was continually chafed under rebuke. You are like those who walked no more with Jesus after He brought close, practical truths to bear upon them. You have not taken hold in faith to correct the defects marked out in your character. You have not humbled your proud spirit before God. You have stood at warfare against the Spirit of God as revealed in reproof. Your carnal, unsubdued heart is not subject to control. You have not disciplined yourself. Time and again your uncontrolled temper, your spirit of insubordination, has gained complete mastery over you. How can such an impulsive, unsubdued soul live among the pure angels? It cannot be admitted into heaven, as you yourself know. If so, you cannot begin too soon to correct the evil in your nature. Be converted, and become as a little child. {4T 90.2}

The following insight teaches us that not everyone who claims to be born again is born again:

COL 99, 100
Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

Posted By: charis

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/19/06 10:10 PM

Quote:

MM: Charis, what do you think Sister White means in the following quote? Please realize that I'm not asking you to agree with her. I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us as we're ready.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. (SC 29)

Quote:

MM said: I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us as we're ready.

I agree with that.

I think the EGW quote means to say that once the hand of God reaches into and gently (or not so gently) touches part of the soul of a person, that area that has been touched is then seen by the person in all its ugliness and horror in comparison to the purity of Christ. Then it is the person's choice to withdraw from His touch, or to let Him continue.

I do not think said *acts of disloyalty* are counted against a person by God if that person has no clue he/she is being disloyal to God.

just fyi: I have a very difficult time reading/understanding most of Ellen White's writings. I generally find her to be verbose and usually clear as mud due to the Victorian-style of language/writing she employed.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/20/06 06:57 AM

MM, regarding the 1888 leaders, she wrote at times that they were in danger of being lost if they continued to resist the working of the Holy Spirit. But people often ignorantly disagree with things which are of God, especially the 1888 message, without meaning that they are necessarily in an unconverted position.

The whole point of the Laodicean message is to make clear to Laodecians what is not known to them. Even as early as the 1850's Ellen White was clear that this applied to us, the SDA church. A. T. Jones included himself. He was certainly converted, as he was being used by God to bring the message!

Ellen White prayed "show the worst of my case." She was aware that there things about herself of which she wasn't aware.

David prayed, "show me my secret faults."

Ellen White's statement in DA that I've quoted is in harmony with what A. T. Jones presented regarding the Laodecian message, and these other points I've raised here.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/20/06 06:50 PM

Charis, thank you. Do we agree on the second quote?

Tom, all of us at birth inherit hereditary traits and tendencies that are evil and selfish. But possessing them and cultivating them are two entirely different things. Jesus inherited the same evil traits and tendencies we do. They tempted Him from within in the exact same way they tempt us internally, and yet He was without sin. How? Why? Because Jesus never once cultivated them. He never once cherished them or acted them out.

Evil and selfish inherited traits and tendencies clamor for sinful expression, they tempt us with unholy thoughts and feelings, however, they cannot commit a sin. The only thing they can “do” is tempt us to sin. We do not become guilty of sinning until we choose to cherish or to act out the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature.

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

We cannot eliminate our inherited evil and selfish traits and tendencies. We are stuck with them until the day Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature. Our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with new and old unholy thoughts and feelings, temptations which we must, in Christ, recognize and resist unto the honor and glory of God our Father.

The evil and selfish traits and tendencies we inherit but do not cultivate, that is, that we do not transform into character by repeatedly acting them out either in thought, word, or deed, represent our fallen, sinful potential. Our sinful potential, incidentally, is second only to Satan. But most of us are ignorant of our full potential. During our short earthly sojourn we only have time to cultivate a fraction of our evil and selfish potential.

The majority of our sinful traits and tendencies, namely, our evil potential, lies dormant and hidden within us. Again, we are not held accountable for our dormant, uncultivated fallen potential. God does not count us guilty simply because we possess inherited traits and tendencies that are evil and selfish. We are not guilty of sinning until we cherish or act them out.

Most of us will never encounter, or become aware of, or be tempted by the majority of our secret, dormant, hidden evil and selfish traits and tendencies – our fallen potential. Although they lie unknown within us, like some mysterious monster hidden beneath the surface of the lake, they, nevertheless, represent our sinful, untapped potential.

Does anybody agree with these insights?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 01:37 AM

I do.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 04:46 AM

I thought we were in agreement, Tom, on these insights. I also suspect we are the only ones on MSDAOL who view Jesus' human nature in this light.

In addition to the insights listed above I believe during the "patient, protracted process", which leads to conversion and rebirth, that the Holy Spirit "makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

In other words, the Holy Spirit gingerly reveals to us our cultivated and known sinful character traits and tendencies no faster than we are capable of confronting them in light of the cross and crucifixion of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not, however, in most cases, during the process of conversion, before we are born again, reveal to us our untapped, uncultivated, dormant, hidden, unknown inherited traits and tendencies - our evil potential.

Therefore, I believe the evil and selfishness that remains within us after we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion belong to that long list of untapped, unknown, uncultivated, dormant sinfulness.

I do not believe it includes the sinful traits and tendencies that we cultivate, that we convert and transform into character by repeatedly cherishing or acting out the unholy thoughts and feelings that bombard us from within.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit would wait until sometime after we are born again to reveal to us our cultivated sinful traits of character.

I believe what Sister White wrote above means exactly what it says, that the word “every” does not exclude certain cultivated character traits. I do not believe the Holy Spirit shies away from them because He is afraid it will be too “painfully distinct”.

Does anyone else agree with these additional insights?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 04:00 PM

Mike,

How do you see Abraham's/Jacob's/Elkanah's/David's/Solomon's polygamy?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 04:40 PM

MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible. You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go. The SOP speaks of fights that go on for years. The fact that a person has to fight doesn't mean (s)he is not converted. She speaks of the importance of training the mind, and of the difficulty involved.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 06:52 PM

Rosangela, I believe polygamy was “winked at” in the same way God appointed kings to rule Israel. God is willing to compromise, but He never has “winked at” cultivated sinful traits of character.

The Holy Spirit will not sit by and allow born again believers to ignorantly sow and reap “selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, self-indulgence”, traits of character that contribute to ruin and wretchedness now and in the judgment to come. Our eternal destiny depends on the Holy Spirit exposing and empowering us to subdue our cultivated sinful traits of character, to rule them well with a sanctified will and mind.

CG 162, 163
The harvest of life is character, and it is this that determines destiny, both for this life and for the life to come. The harvest is a reproduction of the seed sown. Every seed yields fruit after its kind. So it is with the traits of character we cherish. Selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, self-indulgence, reproduce themselves; and the end is wretchedness and ruin. "He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:8. Love, sympathy, and kindness yield fruitage of blessing, a harvest that is imperishable. {CG 162.4}

The sinful traits of character we cultivated, before we embarked upon the “patient, protracted process” of conversion, are gradually revealed to us during the process. They are not dumped on us all at once. It is when the last cultivated trait of character has been revealed and confessed, in light of the cross, that we experience the miracle of rebirth.

DA 172
Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. (DA 172)

It is when we are converted and born again that the Holy Spirit begins empowering us to subdue our inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies, to keep them under control, to refuse to act out the unholy thoughts and feelings that bombard us from within and from without. “When they subdue those sins which God hates, Jesus will come in and sup with them and they with Him.” (1T 188) We are empowered to subdue our sinful flesh nature, but we cannot eliminate it. It will continue to strive for the mastery, to enslave us, but Jesus empowers us to keep it under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

MH 428
His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. {MH 428.3}

MH 90
He who curbed the lions in their den, and walked with His faithful witnesses amid the fiery flames, is just as ready to work in our behalf to subdue every evil in our nature. {MH 90.1}

3T 183
To subdue self, and bring the passions under the control of the will, is the greatest conquest that men and women can achieve. {3T 182.2}

GC 490
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 07:14 PM

TE: MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible.

MM: I agree.

TE: You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go.

MM: I disagree. I am fully aware of what it takes to "stay converted", to keep my eyes on Jesus, to prevent myself from becoming the "play thing" of the devil, to maintain the warfare against sin, self, and Satan, to keep my inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies under the control of a sanctified will and mind. I also know what it feels like to fail, which is why I am so very motivated not to crucify my Lord and Saviour afresh.

TE: The SOP speaks of fights that go on for years. The fact that a person has to fight doesn't mean (s)he is not converted. She speaks of the importance of training the mind, and of the difficulty involved.

MM: I agree. But fighting and subduing our sinful traits and tendencies does not include sinning and repenting because we fail to keep them under control. Fighting the good fight of faith means successfully preventing our natural, evil traits and tendencies from regaining control of us. We shall have to labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive against our inherited and cultivated traits and tendencies until Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one.

SC 43
God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.2,3}

AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/21/06 11:34 PM

Quote:

Mike,

I didn't understand.

The question is not how God considered this sin, but how the people who committed it related to it.
Were those people aware that polygamy was a sin or weren't they? Was this a willful sin or a sin of ignorance? Was it a cultivated sin or not?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/22/06 03:02 AM

I'm confused with your "I agree." I thought you've been saying when a person is converted they become aware of all their cultivated traits to evil, and have to confess them all, and they are all removed at that point.

So what are you saying? If they're not all removed, then some remain, and get removed as the Christian grows and becomes aware of them. I thought that's what Rosangela and myself and I think everyone but you have been saying. I thought you disagreed with this idea.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/22/06 07:25 PM

Polygamy is a sin. "God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. It was contrary to his will. He knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it." (3SG 100) "It was one of the sins that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world." (PP 338)

I searched the word "polygamy" in the SOP and it is clear to me that in some cases believers practiced it innocently and ignorantly, while others did it during a time of backsliding. Thus, some were guilty and ohers were not.

PP 145
Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. {PP 145.1}

4aSG 86
[David] finally fell into the common practice of other kings around him, of having a plurality of wives, and his life was imbittered by the evil results of polygamy. {4aSG 86.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/22/06 07:32 PM

TE: MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible.

MM: I agree.

TE: I thought you've been saying when a person is converted they become aware of all their cultivated traits to evil, and have to confess them all, and they are all removed at that point.

MM: I do not believe it happens "all at once". The Holy Spirit gradually reveals them to us a little at a time during the "long wooing", the "patient, protracted process" that leads to conversion and rebirth.

Posted By: Johann

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Polygamy is a sin. ..

Agreed! The Muslims are allowed to have not more than four wives. They claim this is much better than the poligamy of Christians who have many wives, just marrying one at a time, divorcing them before taking a new one!

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 08:12 AM

Ok, I did understand you correctly. We're back to this:

TE: You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go.

MM: I disagree. I am fully aware of what it takes to "stay converted", to keep my eyes on Jesus, to prevent myself from becoming the "play thing" of the devil, to maintain the warfare against sin, self, and Satan, to keep my inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies under the control of a sanctified will and mind. I also know what it feels like to fail, which is why I am so very motivated not to crucify my Lord and Saviour afresh.

What Waggoner wrote about this subject is that if God were to wait for him to confess all his sins, until probation closed wouldn't be long enough. Instead what the Holy Spirit does is to present to us our reprensentative sins. (I posted the quote a bit earlier in this thread).

I agree with Waggoner. I also agree with what I wrote earlier, that you are seriously misjudging the amount of cultivated sin that we have, and the idea that we can confess it all, or must confess it all, before being converted is also misjudged.

The true idea is communicated here:

Quote:

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up unto the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 08:29 AM

Quote:

MM: I do not believe it happens "all at once". The Holy Spirit gradually reveals them to us a little at a time during the "long wooing", the "patient, protracted process" that leads to conversion and rebirth.

I was thinking some more about this, and this is just so foreign to any experience I'm aware of that I had to comment. When I was converted, God didn't wait for me to confess my cultivated evil. A girl presented me the Gospel, the Holy Spirit presented Christ to me, and I considered what I wanted to do, decided to accept Christ, and that was it.

I can't recall the Holy Spirit convicting me of any sins, let alone all of them. There certainly wasn't any "patient, protracted process" which involved God's making my sins known to me.

Here's the SOP quote:

Quote:

By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.(DA 172)

This isn't talking about sins being revealed before one is converted; it's talking about drawing the sinner to Christ! What she writes agrees exactly with my experience, but what you wrote not only doesn't agree with my experience, I don't know of anyone's experience that it agrees with.

Posted By: Johann

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

I can't recall the Holy Spirit convicting me of any sins, let alone all of them. There certainly wasn't any "patient, protracted process" which involved God's making my sins known to me.

Here's the SOP quote:

Quote:

Thank you, Tom, for this quote. It is quite similar to what I read yesterday in Steps to Christ. I agree with Paul that I am the greatest of sinners, and therefore I need the more of Jesus Christ. If I manage to be so "good" I need less of Christ, and become sufficient in myself. I believe in the words of Christ that without him I can do nothing, so I must hang my helpless soul on him and his merits.

An important part of our message is jusfication by faith and we must live constantly by this faith and by it is our sanctification.

There comes a sanctfied will power, but what is it, and how does it work?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 03:41 PM

Quote:

Polygamy is a sin.

Then why didn’t the Holy Spirit reveal it to them? Why didn’t the gleams of the purity of Christ make this spot of defilement painfully distinct to them?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 07:33 PM

Tom, if all that God requires of us to be born again is to acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for the sins of the world, and nothing else - no more truth, no more doctrine - then who isn't born again? According to your view everyone who is baptized is born again.

Why did Sister White observe that rebirth is rare? that many, so many who name the name of Jesus are not born again? Also, why did she counsel us to properly prepare baptismal candidates?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 07:33 PM

“I saw that there is not one in twenty who knows what experimental religion is.” (1T 496)

“Not one in twenty of those who have a good standing with Seventh-day Adventists is living out the self-sacrificing principles of the word of God.” (1T 632)

“It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.” (ChS 41)

“We need also much more knowledge; we need to be enlightened in regard to the plan of salvation. There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare.” (1SM 359)

“Not one in a hundred among us is doing anything beyond engaging in common, worldly enterprises. We are not half awake to the worth of the souls for whom Christ died.” (8T 147)

“The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ.” (6BC 1075)

“There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. . . . The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments, and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. . . .

“Satan does not want anyone to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; the appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the conscience, so that true conversion does not take place. If all had a sense of the conflict which each soul must wage with satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare, entice, and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor for those who are young in the faith. . . .

“Baptism is a most sacred and important ordinance, and there should be a thorough understanding as to its meaning. It means repentance for sin, and the entrance upon a new life in Christ Jesus. There should be no undue haste to receive the ordinance. . . . Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. . . .

“The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord’s side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. . . .

“All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character.

“The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God’s purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God’s servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus.” (6T 91-97)

“There is one thing that we have no right to do, and that is to judge another man’s heart or impugn his motives. But when a person presents himself as a candidate for church membership, we are to examine the fruit of his life, and leave the responsibility of his motive with himself. But great care should be exercised in accepting members into the church; for Satan has his specious devices through which he purposes to crowd false brethren into the church, through whom he can work more successfully to weaken the cause of God.” (RH 1-10-1893)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 07:40 PM

R: Then why didn’t the Holy Spirit reveal it to them? Why didn’t the gleams of the purity of Christ make this spot of defilement painfully distinct to them?

MM: It became painfully evident to them that polygamy is a source of stress and unrest for the family. But those who backslide do not care about such things. They do whatever seems pleasing to them at the time. It’s the same way with any other sin. Backsliders are not concerned about doing what pleases God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/23/06 09:33 PM

Tom, if all that God requires of us to be born again is to acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for the sins of the world, and nothing else - no more truth, no more doctrine - then who isn't born again?

God doesn't "require" things in order for us to be born again, as if it were some sort of deal or something like that. The process of being born again is laid out here:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

Our being born again is not dependent upon our knowledge. God doesn't "require" that we "acknowledge" Christ is the Son of God, or anything else. God "requires" that we be reconciled to Him, and God accomplishes this, if we don't resist, by revealing Himself to us.

The way you phrased your question makes it appear that you view conversion as having to do with knowledge and mental assent. Conversion has to do with an appreciation of God, who He is, and what He has done for us. It involves our responding to His love by giving ourselves to Him, uniting our will to His will, becoming one with Him.

It certainly isn't dependent upon our remember every sin we've committed and confessing it.

According to your view everyone who is baptized is born again.

Where do you get this idea from? Where did I say anything whatsoever about baptism? Ever. I mean even once. I'm truly amazed as to where some of your ideas come from.

Why did Sister White observe that rebirth is rare?

The answer to this question is obvious. It's because it is rare.

that many, so many who name the name of Jesus are not born again?

Again the answer to your question is obvious. It is because to many who name the name of Jesus are not born again.

Perhaps what you're really wanting to ask is why being born again is a rare event?

Also, why did she counsel us to properly prepare baptismal candidates?

Because it's a good thing to have baptismal candidates properly prepared.

I'm not seeing how any of your questions have anything to do with what we were talking about, which is your idea, assuming I've understood it correctly, that before one can be born again one must confess all of one's cultivated tendencies to evil.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 07:43 AM

TE: When I was converted, God didn't wait for me to confess my cultivated evil. A girl presented me the Gospel, the Holy Spirit presented Christ to me, and I considered what I wanted to do, decided to accept Christ, and that was it. I can't recall the Holy Spirit convicting me of any sins, let alone all of them. There certainly wasn't any "patient, protracted process" which involved God's making my sins known to me.

MM: What is the difference, in your mind, between conversion and rebirth and baptism?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 08:17 AM

I see no difference between conversion and rebirth. These are just two terms for the same thing. Baptism is a formal recognition, or public proclamation, of a decision which one has made.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 01:05 PM

Quote:

MM: It became painfully evident to them that polygamy is a source of stress and unrest for the family. But those who backslide do not care about such things. They do whatever seems pleasing to them at the time. It’s the same way with any other sin. Backsliders are not concerned about doing what pleases God.

I don't get it. Were Abraham, Jacob, David, Elkanah all backsliders?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 06:35 PM

I was wondering the same thing. (that Rosangela said)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 07:21 PM

In Abraham's time polygamy ceased to be regarded as a sin. In David's time it was the result of backsliding.

PP 145
Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. {PP 145.1}

4aSG 86
[David] finally fell into the common practice of other kings around him, of having a plurality of wives, and his life was imbittered by the evil results of polygamy. {4aSG 86.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/24/06 07:30 PM

Posted By: Johann

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

MM: Tom, please help me understand your testimony. Were you converted and born again the day you “accepted” Jesus? Were you converted and born again before the Holy Spirit revealed to you any of your sins and defects? Were you converted and born again with all of your sins and defects in tact? Were you fit to enter the kingdom of God the instant you accepted Jesus?

I found your statement interesting, Mr. Mountain Man, becaue we were just reading the chapter on Nicodemus in the Desire of Ages - translated into the Icelandic language. Since my English copy is still unpacked I'm paraphrasing. Jesus is clearly speaking of the new birth where EGW comments that there is nothing the human being can do to obtain it. It is a matter of cleansing the spring from where purity flows, rather that attacking impure acts. The Christian life is not to repair the old acts but a transformation of the nature of man.

Some may not be able to determine when or where they were born again or trace to acts which accomplished it, but this is no proof they are not reborn. The new birth is further described as being drawn to Christ. Then suddenly the soul submits to the power of Jesus with joy, perhaps based on the work of the Holy Spirit over a long period.

In this translation conversion and rebirth appear as synonyms. It appears clear here that the Holy Spirit renews the mind of the person who is not able to keep the commandments. Besides it is impossible to reach heaven by keeping the commandments without conversion.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 02:23 AM

Pastor Johann, how would you answer the questions I listed above? Is it possible to experience the miracle of rebirth, to have the mind renewed, to have the soul spring cleansed, without realizing what constitutes a sin, without the Holy Spirit first revealing to us our sins and character defects?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 07:15 AM

TE: I see no difference between conversion and rebirth. These are just two terms for the same thing. Baptism is a formal recognition, or public proclamation, of a decision which one has made.

MM: Tom, please help me understand your testimony. Were you converted and born again the day you “accepted” Jesus? Were you converted and born again before the Holy Spirit revealed to you any of your sins and defects? Were you converted and born again with all of your sins and defects in tact? Were you fit to enter the kingdom of God the instant you accepted Jesus?

I was 15 years old. A girl about the same age share with me the Gospel. Before this time I was indifferent about God. I probably would have called myself an athiest. Anyway I heard the Gospel, that Christ had died for me, and the Holy Spirit made clear to me that this was true, and I decided to give myself to Christ. There was a decided change in my life, just as decribed in The Desire of Ages. It was just like that. Everything was new, different. I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ.

God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all.

MM, what you are suggesting makes absolutely no sense at all to me. When we are converted the law is written in our heart. How could all of our sins and defects remain "in tact"?

But God doesn't reveal all of our sins at once. That's just a rediculous concept. How many sins had I committed by the time I was 15? Millions? How long would I have had to wait before God had revealed them all? Years and years. Who would have the patience to wait for all that? And what would that say about God?

Consider the prodigal son. When he came back to the father, did the father make him wait until he had told him all the bad things he had done, how he had spent all his money? He didn't let him say anything. It was obvious that he had repented. That's what God desires.

Quote:

The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Ps. 34:18)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 07:50 PM

Posted By: Johann

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

This question is important, but should be worded slightly different. It was quite a surprice to me when I discovered in the writings of Ellen White that we are not to worry about a single sin unconfessed when the door of grace closes. I was brought up to believe that a single unconfessed sin could keep me out of heaven. Why does Ellen White make such a statement? Seems to contradict some of what she wrote when she was younger?

Therefore I believe it is of greater importance the Holy Spirit reveals to me what sin is, rather than a sin. Jesus makes it clear that unbelief consitutes sin, and EGW states this is the most grievous sin.

Who commits sinful acts? Are you committing sinful acts while your soul is in tune with Christ? Or is it more important that you dwell on your sinful acts to refrain from sinning any more? Or are you living in sin if your mind dwells on sin?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/25/06 11:47 PM

Mike,

You said:

Quote:

It became painfully evident to them that polygamy is a source of stress and unrest for the family. But those who backslide do not care about such things. They do whatever seems pleasing to them at the time. It’s the same way with any other sin. Backsliders are not concerned about doing what pleases God.

Then you said:

Quote:

In Abraham's time polygamy ceased to be regarded as a sin. In David's time it was the result of backsliding.

Then I get that David was a backslider who did what pleased to him instead of what pleased God. In other words, his sin must be a willful sin and a cherished sin. I have two questions: 1)Will he be in heaven? 2)Can a backslider be a prophet?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/26/06 04:56 AM

TE: There was a decided change in my life, just as decribed in The Desire of Ages. It was just like that. Everything was new, different. I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ. God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all.

MM: If the Holy Spirit did not reveal to you any of your sinful ways, if your sinning was not an issue, in what way was “everything” new and different? Did you stop practicing the sins you practiced before you accepted Jesus?

I spoke about this, MM. I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different." Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

I didn't say, "The Holy Spirit did not reveal any of my sinful ways." I wrote "God did not make known to me all my sins."

TE: When we are converted the law is written in our heart. How could all of our sins and defects remain "in tact"?

MM: Good point. I do not believe they remain in tact. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals them to us during the process of conversion, and when we confess the last one, we experience the miracle of rebirth. Do you agree?

I believe what Waggoner wrote about this to be correct, which I quoted several times previously. He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that.

Or, do you believe we gradually overcome or outgrow, after we are born again, the sinful traits we cultivated by committing the same sins over and over again before we were born again?

This would depend upon the individual. There's no need to keep sinning, but if anyone sin, we have an advocate.

TE: But God doesn't reveal all of our sins at once. That's just a rediculous concept.

MM: I agree.

Good!

TE: How many sins had I committed by the time I was 15? Millions? How long would I have had to wait before God had revealed them all? Years and years. Who would have the patience to wait for all that? And what would that say about God?

MM: I see what you mean. Good point. I didn’t realize that’s what you had in mind. What I mean is that God reveals to us, for the first time in our life, in light of the cross, just how sinful and wrong are the specific traits we have cultivated over the years - not the repetitious sinning that led to the development of each trait of character. As He gently reveals them to us and, as we see them for the first time in light of the cross, we confess that they are sinful and destructive, and it is our wish and desire to be set free from them.

I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/26/06 07:49 PM

PJ: It was quite a surprice to me when I discovered in the writings of Ellen White that we are not to worry about a single sin unconfessed when the door of grace closes.

MM: Pastor Johann, I, too, am surprised. Please quote her here so we can study it. Thank you. By the way, are the following insights the ones that led you to initially believe we will answer for our sins in judgment?

GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

GC 620
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

Satan leads many to believe that God will overlook their unfaithfulness in the minor affairs of life; but the Lord shows in His dealings with Jacob that He will in no wise sanction or tolerate evil. All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless. {GC 620.2}

PJ: Who commits sinful acts? Are you committing sinful acts while your soul is in tune with Christ? Or is it more important that you dwell on your sinful acts to refrain from sinning any more? Or are you living in sin if your mind dwells on sin?

MM: Great questions. Not sinning is not the goal. The goal is to be like Jesus. Maturing in the fruit of the Spirit is the goal. We do not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. This truth does not mean we are incapable of choosing to sin. It means we will not choose to sin while abiding in Jesus. So, the goal is to keep our eyes on Jesus, to continue abiding in Him, to refuse to disconnect from Him.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/26/06 07:56 PM

R: Then I get that David was a backslider who did what pleased to him instead of what pleased God. In other words, his sin must be a willful sin and a cherished sin. I have two questions: 1)Will he be in heaven? 2)Can a backslider be a prophet?

MM: Yes, and yes.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/26/06 08:35 PM

TE: I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different."

MM: But, Tom, such things do not mean you experienced the miracle of rebirth. Right? Sister White wrote these kinds of things happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: What do you mean?

TE: He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals.

MM: Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t get in the way? Which trait, which is the result of hundreds and thousands of sins, does not hinder healing and reconciliation? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: If we should die in this proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns? If so, when do we overcome them?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/26/06 10:31 PM

TE: I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different."

MM: But, Tom, such things do not mean you experienced the miracle of rebirth. Right?

I wasn't interested in spiritual things. The Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ. I gave my heart to Him, and accepted Him as my personal savior. This is is the experience of the new birth.

Sister White wrote these kinds of things happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

"The soul gladly surrender itself to Jesus." That's the new birth.

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: What do you mean?

I meant what I wrote. What's not clear about it?

TE: He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals.

MM: Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t get in the way? Which trait, which is the result of hundreds and thousands of sins, does not hinder healing and reconciliation? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: If we should die in this proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns? If so, when do we overcome them?

It's up to God to decide who will be raised in which resurrection. He certainly won't allow anyone to die lost who had chosen to give their life to Him.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/27/06 01:27 PM

Mike,

Then what you believe is that when the gleams of the purity of Christ make ours sins painfully distinct to us we don’t need to renounce these sins, and that these cherished sins (which are distinct to us but we choose not to renounce) won’t prevent our admittance to heaven? Is this your position? If not, what is it (having David's case in mind)?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/27/06 06:54 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/27/06 07:04 PM

R: Then what you believe is that when the gleams of the purity of Christ make ours sins painfully distinct to us we don’t need to renounce these sins, and that these cherished sins (which are distinct to us but we choose not to renounce) won’t prevent our admittance to heaven? Is this your position? If not, what is it (having David's case in mind)?

MM: Good observation and question. Thank you. In David’s case, he repented of his known sins. Thus, he will be in heaven. But if he had chosen not to repent, to persist in his sins until death, then he would have died lost. In the case of all post-conversion sinning, if we repent, then 1 John 2:1, 2 applies. If we refuse to repent, then Hebrews 10:26, 27 applies. Is this how you see it?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/27/06 11:58 PM

Regarding David, I think Rosangela's point is that you said that David practices polygamy because he had backslid. After David repented, he still was committing polygamy, correct? So how does that tie in with the idea that David comitted polygame because he was backsliding?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/27/06 11:59 PM

TE: "The soul gladly surrender itself to Jesus." That's the new birth.

MM: Tom, do you agree that this happens after the three things she listed?

EGW: Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher.

Of course. I explained in my case I learned the Gospel from a girl who shared it with me.

TE: I meant what I wrote. What's not clear about it?

MM: So, sinning was never talked about?

That's not what I wrote, is it?

Nothing was ever said about your sinful habits?
Again, not what I wrote, is it?

How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?
From the usual sources.

TE: God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

MM: True. God does not reveal to us “all of our” sinful traits of character in one second. We have already agreed upon this point. Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t “get in the way”? Which evil habit does not hinder “healing and reconciliation”? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

The process of conversion is very well described by Jesus in His talk with Nicodemus. Ellen White, in the chapter "Nicodemus," explains what Jesus said, in the quote that I often cite. Basically the process is: a)The sinner is drawn to Christ b)The beauty of His character leads one to repentance c)The sinner repents, and is reconciled to God.

Clearly there is a need for one to recognize one's need for Christ and for repentance. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation.

Keep in mind that reconciliation is what God is after. He wants to be one with us. He leads us into harmony with Himself by revealing Himself to us through Christ. Sin is a deadly thing, which separates us from Him. As necessary, God reveals our sin to us. But this is never the primary thing. The primary thing is always the revelation of Christ. The revelation of sin is a means to an end, and the end is Christ.

TE: It's up to God to decide who will be raised in which resurrection. He certainly won't allow anyone to die lost who had chosen to give their life to Him.

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns?

MM, you should be careful about putting words into another's mouth, or pen, as it were. This is not what I wrote. I'll pass on responding to this since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If so, when do we overcome the types of evils you named? If not, what does Jesus do before they die that "won't allow them to die lost"? How does it apply to the thief on the cross?

Ellen White points out that the character consists of the trend of one's life, not the occasional good deed or misdeed. In relation to the theif on the cross, obviously God has foreseen that he would be happy in heaven, so he will be there. The same applies to us. If we will be happy there, God will take us there. If not, then the Holy Spirit will work to make us aware of what needs to be addressed so that we would be happy citizens of heaven.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 01:21 AM

Did God require David to put away his other wives? If not, why not?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 02:04 AM

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?

TE: From the usual sources.

MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

TE: But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at on[c]e, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation.

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

TE: Sin is a deadly thing, which separates us from Him. As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

MM: I agree. But you keep saying God permits us to retain certain sinful habits until after we are born again, that He doesn’t reveal them to us until later on.

In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

SC 26-29
Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts. {SC 26.3}

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. {SC 27.2}

The same divine mind that is working upon the things of nature is speaking to the hearts of men and creating an inexpressible craving for something they have not. The things of the world cannot satisfy their longing. The Spirit of God is pleading with them to seek for those things that alone can give peace and rest--the grace of Christ, the joy of holiness. Through influences seen and unseen, our Saviour is constantly at work to attract the minds of men from the unsatisfying pleasures of sin to the infinite blessings that may be theirs in Him. To all these souls, who are vainly seeking to drink from the broken cisterns of this world, the divine message is addressed, "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17. {SC 28.1}

You who in heart long for something better than this world can give, recognize this longing as the voice of God to your soul. Ask Him to give you repentance, to reveal Christ to you in His infinite love, in His perfect purity. In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts. {SC 28.2}

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 02:14 AM

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 03:10 AM

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

From glory to glory!

2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

We are changed by the glory that excelleth, not by raking through the past glory, much less muck.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 04:45 AM

I like it, John. We are changed from "glory to glory", from "faith to faith", and "grace for grace" - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Sanctification is "an advance from one stage of perfection to another" - not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection.

John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romns
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

ML 250
This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 08:25 AM

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns?

TE: MM, you should be careful about putting words into another's mouth, or pen, as it were. This is not what I wrote. I'll pass on responding to this since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

MM: Sorry about the quotation marks I included. Here’s what you actually posted:

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: So, if we should die in this state are we lost or saved?

I answered this. I answered that God knows if we would be happy in heaven or not, and will take us to heaven if so. If not, He will woo us to repent.

Let's take Luther as an example. He was certainly headstrong, stupid and blind regarding certain things, wouldn't you agree? For example, Jews. Yet he will be in heaven. So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven.

TE: If we will be happy there, God will take us there. If not, then the Holy Spirit will work to make us aware of what needs to be addressed so that we would be happy citizens of heaven.

MM: Are pride and arrogance sinful traits that would need to be addressed before we die if hope to be happy citizens in heaven?

I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven. Happily we may be healed by contemplating the life of Christ, who was meek and humble (just like God)

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 02:18 PM

Quote:

Did God require David to put away his other wives? If not, why not?

Yes, why not? Why not, if polygamy is a sin, a transgression of the 7th commandment? Why was he not rebuked for having several wives, but was rebuked for having committed adultery with Bathsheba? Besides, why couldn't a male servant or one of his wives warm him in his deathbed, instead of this being done by a beautiful virgin?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 08:34 PM

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died? Did the theif on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

PS - You overlooked a post on the previous page.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/28/06 08:53 PM

Rosangela, the only thing I can think of is that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins. He chooses His battles wisely.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/29/06 03:15 AM

Quote:

The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition.(43)

I would say conversion occurs when the soul yields itself to Christ, at which point a new heart is created. It's preceded by repentance, and there are evidences which follow. What especially motivates the soul to yield to Christ is the love of God.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/29/06 12:46 PM

Mike,

You said to Tom:

Quote:

But you keep saying God permits us to retain certain sinful habits until after we are born again, that He doesn’t reveal them to us until later on.

But aren't you expressing the same concept when you say that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/29/06 08:27 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/29/06 08:44 PM

R: But aren't you expressing the same concept when you say that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins?

MM: Polygamy is one of those kinds of sins that does not go away after its been committed and repented. Getting pregnant before you're married is another one. God did not requrie David to send away his other wives. Sinful habits like impatience, selfishness, pride, and arrogance do not fall into the same category as polygamy. I do not believe God "winks at" these kinds of sins. Do you?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/30/06 03:53 AM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/30/06 05:23 AM

MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

TE: Before and after.

MM: That makes more sense to me. I was having a hard time believing the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal to you any of your sinful habits.

I never said anything of the sort. Be careful when reading!

………………..

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

TE: Well I don't think God needs to "sort" through these things. I think He just knows how to motivate us to repent. … I wouldn't put it this way. It's not a matter of God "permiting" us to retain certain sinful habits.

MM: So, God chooses which sinful habits to motivate us to repent and which one not to? And, pride and arrogance and selfishness are types of sinful habits God may choose not to reveal to us until however long after we are born again, as long as 50 plus years in the case of Sister White? Does God ever reveal to us all of our sinful habits? Or, is it possible to die in and with our sinful habits unrevealed and in tact?

No, you're not getting my idea at all here. I'll try again. God converts us by revealing Himself to us through Christ. By His goodness, He draws us to Himself. The revelation of His goodness makes clear to us our need of Him and awakens a desire in us for Him. If we respond to that drawing, we are born again. God gives us a new heart. It becomes our desire to follow Him.

EGW explained all this. Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. This is just as she said.

Also, as I've pointed out, God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. If you think of it in terms of God's choosing to reveal this or that thing, or withholding this or that thing, that's not the right way to go about it. It's not that God is choosing this or that, but we are! God honors our choice. He does not force the will. He woos, invites. If we open ourselves to His Spirit, there's no end to the truth God will reveal.

Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. But His primary focus is that we know Him and love Him with all our heart. To know God is to love Him. It is by knowing Him and loving Him that we best perceive our own sin, just as Sister White said (in the quote you provided, I think, from SC). So if we choose to respond to His gracious revelation of Himself, we perceive our sin. As we give that up, we perceive Him more clearly, which in turn allows us to understand still more about ourselves. And so the pattern continues, as long as we are willing to respond to His Spirit.

……………………

TE: Surely you must know this by personal experience. I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted.

MM: Truthfully? I was one of those persons Sister White describes as burying the old man alive when I got baptized and joined the church. I was told I was converted and born again. And I believed it. But I was sadly mistaken. I was just as faulty and defective after I was “born again”.

At first, I was concerned about it and sought counsel from the pastor. But he convinced me that post-conversion sinning is normal, that sanctification is a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing and overcoming our sinful habits. He encouraged me to be patient with myself, not to expect God to miraculously eliminate my sinful habits.

I bought it hook, line, and sinker. So, for 13 years I taught myself to be tolerant with my frequent failures, comforting myself that God would eventually give me the victory over my sinful habits. Meanwhile, my poor wife and children bore the brunt of my imperfections, which, as I eventually discovered, I did not need to carry about. I was impatient with my wife and my children. I was demanding and overbearing.

But I tolerated it because I was patiently waiting for God to give me the victory, which I expected to happen gradually, which it seemed to be doing, that is, my impatience appeared to be decreasing and diminishing, at least in duration and intensity. I was the only one, though, who thought so. My poor, precious family continued to suffer as if the truth were wholly unknown to me.

FLB 140
We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

……………………….

TE: It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

MM: Ignorance is bondage. If I am guilty of unknowingly being unchristlike, then I am most miserable. But not more miserable than my wife and children. I do not believe, even for one second, that my loving, heavenly Father is choosing not to reveal to me sinful habits that I have been ignorantly cultivating for years.

It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

For what purpose? Why would He choose not to reveal them to me?

Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

Is it because I am so defective that He knows I am not ready to face them? Who suffers? My family, myself, my ministry, my Lord and Saviour – that’s who suffers! And why? Because God is choosing not to reveal them to me? I do not believe it! God forbid.

Well it is unfortunate that others suffer because of our dullness, but certainly God is not at fault for this. But what can God do, other than reveal truth?

When I discovered the truth – it set me free, and I was free indeed. Just like Jesus said. Now when I am tempted to be unlike Jesus, I know exactly what to do. And when I do it I am victorious. I am kind and loving and patient – just like Jesus. My family can testify that it is true. There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.

Are there unknown, inherited traits and tendencies that Jesus hasn’t revealed to me yet, that I have no idea reside within me? Yes, of course. There are, no doubt scores of them. But I have not cultivated them. They lie dormant and untapped within me. I have not turned them into character by repeatedly acting them out in thought, word, or behaviour. Possessing these unknown and uncultivated traits and tendencies is not a sin. God does not hold me accountable for them. I believe it was these things that Sister White had in mind when she prayed for God to show her the worst of her case.

I think you may have too limited a view here. In particular, I think you are too focused on behavior rather than character (I mean your behavior as opposed to God's character). I don't know if you have Ty Gibson's books or not, but he talks about this a lot. Especially in the book "See With New Eyes."

……………………..

MM: In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

TE: MM, there's no need to ask me if I agree with Sister White's explanation of something. If you want ask me if I agree with your interpretation of something she's written that's fine, but please don't ask me if I agree with what she has written. I looked through Steps to Christ and the following paragraph was ones that seemed to me to be especially speaking of the moment of conversion, or close to it:

MM: Tom, I was asking if you agreed with my interpretation. I said she describes things that happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again. Do you agree that she was describing an unconverted person in the passage I quoted?

Quote:

Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts. {SC 26.3}

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

I think this principle applies any time we repent, whether before conversion or not, but agree that primarily she is discussing the experience of conversion.

TE: I would say conversion occurs when the soul yields itself to Christ, at which point a new heart is created. It's preceded by repentance, and there are evidences which follow. What especially motivates the soul to yield to Christ is the love of God.

MM: I agree.

Good!

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/30/06 03:03 PM

Quote:

MM: Polygamy is one of those kinds of sins that does not go away after its been committed and repented. Getting pregnant before you're married is another one.

Ok, but if you really repented, will you continue to get pregnant again and again? And if you really repented, will you continue to get new wives? Or will you have a virgin in your bed without being married to her?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/30/06 09:08 PM

TE: Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger.

MM: Satan deceived Eve, not me. I was born in sin. I had no choice. I developed sinful habits because I was born in slavery to sin, self, and Satan. I had no idea there was a God until I was 15 years old. Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not. There isn’t one sinful habit that doesn’t get in the way of knowing God. Minimizing the danger and deceitfulness of sin isn’t the answer. Yes, knowing the truth about God is the answer. The answer to what? - Overcoming our sinful habits! And then we can begin the lifelong process of perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

MM: So, if we possess sinful habits it is because we are not open to the truth God has revealed to us? What? When the truth is presented to us who is responsible for convicting us? And if I am successfully convicted, am I still ignorant? Still not open to the truth?

TE: Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

MM: When God presents the truth to me, and I don’t get it, whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the person God chose to present the truth to me? Is it the fault of the Holy Spirit? Or, is it because I hardened my heart against the truth? Why did we fail to grasp or accept the truth when it is presented us? Saul, by the way, was kicking against his pricking conscience. He wasn’t innocent or ignorant.

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died? Did the thief on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 11/30/06 09:13 PM

R: Ok, but if you really repented, will you continue to get pregnant again and again? And if you really repented, will you continue to get new wives? Or will you have a virgin in your bed without being married to her?

MM: Genuine repentance, as you know, is no guarantee we will never sin again.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/01/06 01:19 AM

TE: Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger.

MM: Satan deceived Eve, not me. I was born in sin. I had no choice. I developed sinful habits because I was born in slavery to sin, self, and Satan. I had no idea there was a God until I was 15 years old. Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not. There isn’t one sinful habit that doesn’t get in the way of knowing God. Minimizing the danger and deceitfulness of sin isn’t the answer. Yes, knowing the truth about God is the answer. The answer to what? - Overcoming our sinful habits! And then we can begin the lifelong process of perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You said one very important thing that I'll start by agreeing with: "Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not." Amen to that!

But the essence of sin is not behavior, but thought. It's not what comes out of a man that defiles, but what is in the inside. "The kingdom of God is within you."

As a man thinkith in his heart, so is he. Only as we think correctly, can we decide correctly. It is from our minds, our wills, that correct behavior emenates. Only when the source is corrected can there be any hope that thich which flows from the source can be pure.

You were deceived as much as Eve was. It's a big mistake to not realize this. Our nature involves not simply a bent to do certain things, but a bent to perceive God in a negative way, just as Eve did, which is how Satan presented Him. Once man believed the lie, that deception was passed, and has been passed, from generation to generation. All mankind views God incorrectly, and Jesus Christ is our only hope of seeing God as He really is.

Remember that EGW wrote that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, in order to keep us right and set us right with God. The fact that she referred to this as Christ's "whole purpose" shows just how important it is.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

No comment!

TE: It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

MM: So, if we possess sinful habits it is because we are not open to the truth God has revealed to us? What? When the truth is presented to us who is responsible for convicting us? And if I am successfully convicted, am I still ignorant? Still not open to the truth?

God presents truth to us as fast as we are willing and ready to accept it.

TE: Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

MM: When God presents the truth to me, and I don’t get it, whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the person God chose to present the truth to me?

Possibly.

Is it the fault of the Holy Spirit?

I assume this is rhetorical.

Or, is it because I hardened my heart against the truth?
SMNH-6VYRUZ
This is certainly possible.

Why did we fail to grasp or accept the truth when it is presented us?

There are many possible answers to this.

Saul, by the way, was kicking against his pricking conscience. He wasn’t innocent or ignorant.

I'm not saying he was innocent. I'm sure he was ignorant, though, to some degree, because as soon as he knew the truth for certain he became perhaps the greatest disciple of Christ ever.

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died?

He overcame it enough.

Did the thief on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

God wouldn't take them to happy if they wouldn't be happy, right? So that's how I'm sure. The most important sinful habit to overcome is the habit to not love God. The theif overcame that one.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/01/06 01:38 AM

Okay, that got us nowhere. You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

..............

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/01/06 06:07 AM

Okay, that got us nowhere.

That's too bad. I was sharing some important principles.

You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/01/06 03:43 PM

Quote:

MM: Genuine repentance, as you know, is no guarantee we will never sin again.

Genuine repentance for a sin does mean that you will renounce that sin, that you will not practice this sin habitually. Taking new wives or having a girl every day in your bed to warm you are clearly premeditated and habitual sins (in case these sins are distinct to you).

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/02/06 06:44 AM

Quote.
........., as long as we are willing to respond to His Spirit.
Unquote.

That is the keyword to be success in living righteously or not.

Naturally we live as according to our own will, which is sinful.
To live according to the Spirit is something we must do, work it out and try hard. But why we failed from time to time? Because to live naturally is to live in sin, which is easy, a natural outflow of our will and mind, but to live according to the Spirit is dying daily, to fight a constant 24 hours against self, and who can stand it?

But does it matter?

We are justified by faith and saved by grace.

So, God would justify me by faith even though I have a miserable life and many of my sinful habits still exist and empower me from time to time.

As long as we live with faith, which means according to the Spirit, we would be justified, even though it means we didn’t has a victorious life over sin and still live sinfully from time to time. Why I said God would justify us by our faith, because we have tried our best to live according to the Spirit. For some people, they sin less, for other they sin more, but that is the best they can produce. But no man I believe would live sinless except Jesus Christ.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/02/06 06:47 AM

Quote.

All mankind views God incorrectly, and Jesus Christ is our only hope of seeing God as He really is.

Remember that EGW wrote that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, in order to keep us right and set us right with God.

Unquote.

But I know God as the way the bible describe Him, only some time I still want to live naturally, which means the sinful way, because I am tired of living according to the Spirit or fed up. No matter how good you know God and his will, the choice is still yours, and living naturally is living in sin, so, die daily if you can, bit it doesn’t matter, God would still justify you because you have tried to live with faith.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 12:57 AM

MM: You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

TE: I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

MM: I based my summary of your view on the following posts:

(81638) [God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

(81669) God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

(81733) The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation. … As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

(81809) As we walk with Him, God reveals more things about ourselves. … I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted. It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

(81867) Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. … Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. … Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. … Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing.

…………………

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

TE: How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

MM: What do you mean by “I was trying to be nice”?

You answered your own question with a rhetorical question. When I asked what you thought about it, you responded - “No comment!”

I had already answered your question in the same post. “There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

Answering your own question with – “You were truly born again and never sinned again?” – sounds rude to me. You know it’s not true. You know what I've posted. So, why did you say such a thing?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 01:03 AM

R: Genuine repentance for a sin does mean that you will renounce that sin, that you will not practice this sin habitually. Taking new wives or having a girl every day in your bed to warm you are clearly premeditated and habitual sins (in case these sins are distinct to you).

MM: Okay. But I don't understand how you are using these insights to prove that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact? that God chooses to wait to reveal to us certain sinful habits until He feels we are ready to confess and crucify them? Please help me out. Thank you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 01:13 AM

JS: So, God would justify me by faith even though I have a miserable life and many of my sinful habits still exist and empower me from time to time. … Why I said God would justify us by our faith, because we have tried our best to live according to the Spirit. For some people, they sin less, for other they sin more, but that is the best they can produce. But no man I believe would live sinless except Jesus Christ.

MM: James, it sounds like you believe Jesus justifies us whether we overcome our sinful habits or not. Did I misunderstand you? It also sounds like you believe we will never overcome our sinful habits. Is that right? What do you think the following quotes teach us about it?

“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

“It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

“‘If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword.’ These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.” (1MR 369)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 09:44 AM

MM: You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

TE: I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

MM: I based my summary of your view on the following posts:

(81638) [God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

(81669) God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

(81733) The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation. … As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

(81809) As we walk with Him, God reveals more things about ourselves. … I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted. It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

(81867) Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. … Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. … Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. … Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing.

I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

…………………

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

TE: How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

MM: What do you mean by “I was trying to be nice”?

You answered your own question with a rhetorical question. When I asked what you thought about it, you responded - “No comment!”

I had already answered your question in the same post. “There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

Answering your own question with – “You were truly born again and never sinned again?” – sounds rude to me. You know it’s not true. You know what I've posted. So, why did you say such a thing?

I'm sorry you thought it was rude. From my reading of the post, my question was a natural question from the position you were outlining, starting from "truthfully." But this was a long time ago now, so it makes it more difficult. If you find fault with something I wrote, instead of asking me a question, and then a question about that question, and so forth, if you had just responded immediately, "that seemed rude to me" it would be a lot easier for me to respond. I couldn't even remember the context without going back to read the post.

It sounded to me like you were laying out a position that you have overcome all your sinful habits and don't sin anymore. My questions were by way of clarification. I can see how you could take them as rude, but it's not necessary to. I suggest putting the most favorable reading on what someone posts, and go from there. You can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice. I'm sorry if you felt offended by what I wrote. That was not my intention. My intention was to see what the conclusion of your line of thought was.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 06:41 PM

Quote.
“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

“It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

“‘If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword.’ These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.” (1MR 369)

Unquote.

Paul said:
1 Timothy 1:15
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

I am wondering, how long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins??

Jesus said:
Luke 23:43.
And Jesus said unto him: “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

A thief whose life long live in sin, taken to heaven at the last minute? Whom even hasn’t got the chance to work out his faith.

What does these two verses taught us?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 07:09 PM

TE: I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

MM: You believe God does not reveal all of our sinful habits to us before we are born again, right? You believe He only reveals to us those sinful habits that "get in the way" of healing and reconciliation, right? You believe God only reveals to us those sinful habits that we are ready to confess and crucify, right? You believe some sinful habits, like pride and arrogance, are so subtle that it takes God a long time to make us aware of them, right? And, you believe that the sinful habits God does not reveal to us are not necessary for us to know about before we experience the miracle of rebirth, right?

Again, here is what you posted about it:

(81638) “[God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.”

And, here is how I summarized your view:

(81899) “You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.”

Tom, please explain to me how my observations and conclusions regarding your views are different than what you believe. Thank you.

…………………….

TE: It sounded to me like you were laying out a position that you have overcome all your sinful habits and don't sin anymore.

MM: Tom, I find it hard to believe that you, of all people, someone who regularly instructs me and others how not to miss the obvious, that you thought I was saying I do not sin anymore. I posted my view clearly. There is no way you could have missed it. Not the Tom I know. I still believe you let slip some facetious sarcasm, and that you are unwilling to admit it.

Again, I wrote: “So, for 13 years I taught myself to be tolerant with my frequent failures, comforting myself that God would eventually give me the victory over my sinful habits.”

In response to this, you wrote: “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?”

A few paragraphs afterwards, I wrote: “There are times, however, when I fail to do [what works] and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

In response to this, you wrote: “I think you may have too limited a view here. In particular, I think you are too focused on behavior rather than character (I mean your behavior as opposed to God's character).”

No doubt, Tom, you have run into people who argue against the idea that we can overcome all of our sinful habits before Jesus returns by glibly saying – Oh, and are you one of those “saints” who hasn’t sinned in the past twenty years?

Even if you haven’t encountered such a person, I am sure you would agree that saying such a thing is at best a smoke screen and at worst facetious and sarcastic. And, answering your own question, What is the end of the story? by asking, You never sinned again? is at best insensitive and at worst rude. It reminds me of trial lawyers who attempt to discredit a witness to create reasonable doubt.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 08:06 PM

JS: Paul said: 1 Timothy 1:15. “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” I am wondering, how long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins?? Jesus said: Luke 23:43. And Jesus said unto him: “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” A thief whose life long live in sin, taken to heaven at the last minute? Whom even hasn’t got the chance to work out his faith. What does these two verses taught us?

MM: James, I see perfect harmony between your Bible texts and my SOP quotes. Do you agree?

To answer the question - How long does it take God to set us free from a sinful habit? I believe it happens the instant He sets us free! But our freedom from sinning is conditional. When God sets us free from a particular sinful habit, it does not mean we are suddenly incapable of ever taking our eyes off Jesus and committing that sin again.

The only way we can remain free from repeating a former sin is to abide in Jesus. That is the one and only condition for staying free. In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It is impossible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Here’s what Jesus, John, and Paul wrote about it:

John
8:32-36 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. … Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. … If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:6, 9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. … Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You also asked - How long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins? Again, I believe it happened the instant God revealed them to Paul. I do not believe God reveals our sinful habits to us and then we gradually outgrow them over the course of a lifetime of sinning less and less often until we finally cease sinning.

God is not an evolutionist. He is a creationist. And, rebirth is recreation. We are either all of His and free from sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Rom. 8:9, 10)

In the case of the thief on the cross, he was just as free as was the apostle Paul. The difference between the two is their fitness for heaven, not their title to heaven. Paul had more time to cultivate sinless traits of character, more time to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But we are saved based on our title, not our fitness. “The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.” (FLB 116)

Being free and staying free are separate, but similar, realities. Jesus sets us free from sinning the instant we are born again. Staying free from sinning requires us to “die daily”, to choose every second of every minute to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” (Col. 2:6, 7)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/06/06 08:15 PM

TE: I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

MM: You believe God does not reveal all of our sinful habits to us before we are born again, right? You believe He only reveals to us those sinful habits that "get in the way" of healing and reconciliation, right? You believe God only reveals to us those sinful habits that we are ready to confess and crucify, right? You believe some sinful habits, like pride and arrogance, are so subtle that it takes God a long time to make us aware of them, right? And, you believe that the sinful habits God does not reveal to us are not necessary for us to know about before we experience the miracle of rebirth, right?

Again, here is what you posted about it:

(81638) “[God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.”

And, here is how I summarized your view:

(81899) “You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.”

Tom, please explain to me how my observations and conclusions regarding your views are different than what you believe. Thank you.

Why don't we go about it this way. If there's something you disagree about what I wrote, why not point out what it is. I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him. I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements? I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/07/06 06:24 PM

TE: I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

TE: I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

TE: What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements?

MM: No to the first, and yes to the second. I believe it is necessary for God to reveal to us, in light of the cross, all of the sinful habits we cultivated during the years we served sin, self, and Satan. Even the least of our cultivated traits of character prevents healing and reconciliation. Nothing can be hidden from us.

Jesus gently, gradually makes us aware of all of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, a little at a time, during the long and patient “protracted process” that ends in true, genuine conversion. We experience the miracle of rebirth the instant we confess, in light of the cross, the last cultivated sinful habit revealed to us.

Not one sinful habit is left unrevealed, to be dealt with later on, after we are born again, after 50 years of faithful service, as in the case of Sister White, an example you shared which I totally disagree with, that is, I do not believe God waited 50 years to reveal to her even one sinful habit she cultivated before her rebirth, or sinful habits she continued to cultivate ignorantly after her conversion because she was unaware of wrongdoing.

There is also the matter of inherited traits and tendencies we never cultivated, that we are unaware of. We can also discuss them, too, if you want to. I think it is important for us to agree on the distinctions between inherited, unknown, uncultivated traits and inherited, known, cultivated traits.

TE: I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

MM: I believe Jesus reveals to us all of the sinful habits we have developed, all of the traits we cultivated by repeatedly going against our conscience and convictions. I do not believe we can accidentally or ignorantly cultivate sinful habits. Character is the result of thinking, saying, or behaving the same way over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. Our habits is who we are.

Unless we are dead or beyond hope, the Holy Spirit is always present, wooing us to do what is morally right, and we feel guilty when we refuse and reject to live accordingly. In this way, I do not believe anyone, lost or saved, can cultivate sinful habits without realizing it. Otherwise, we could blame the Holy Spirit in judgment for not convicting us of wrongdoing. The difference during the process of conversion is the Holy Spirit reveals to us our sinful habits in light of the cross. This difference makes all the difference in the world. It’s what makes or breaks us, that is, the cross.

TE: Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

MM: I was hoping for an admission, too. But I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give up. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/07/06 09:45 PM

TE: I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

No, not at all.

TE: I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

No.

TE: What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements?

MM: No to the first, and yes to the second. I believe it is necessary for God to reveal to us, in light of the cross, all of the sinful habits we cultivated during the years we served sin, self, and Satan. Even the least of our cultivated traits of character prevents healing and reconciliation. Nothing can be hidden from us.

Jesus gently, gradually makes us aware of all of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, a little at a time, during the long and patient “protracted process” that ends in true, genuine conversion. We experience the miracle of rebirth the instant we confess, in light of the cross, the last cultivated sinful habit revealed to us.

Not one sinful habit is left unrevealed, to be dealt with later on, after we are born again, after 50 years of faithful service, as in the case of Sister White, an example you shared which I totally disagree with, that is, I do not believe God waited 50 years to reveal to her even one sinful habit she cultivated before her rebirth, or sinful habits she continued to cultivate ignorantly after her conversion because she was unaware of wrongdoing.

There is also the matter of inherited traits and tendencies we never cultivated, that we are unaware of. We can also discuss them, too, if you want to. I think it is important for us to agree on the distinctions between inherited, unknown, uncultivated traits and inherited, known, cultivated traits.

You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

TE: I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

MM: I believe Jesus reveals to us all of the sinful habits we have developed, all of the traits we cultivated by repeatedly going against our conscience and convictions. I do not believe we can accidentally or ignorantly cultivate sinful habits. Character is the result of thinking, saying, or behaving the same way over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. Our habits is who we are.

Unless we are dead or beyond hope, the Holy Spirit is always present, wooing us to do what is morally right, and we feel guilty when we refuse and reject to live accordingly. In this way, I do not believe anyone, lost or saved, can cultivate sinful habits without realizing it. Otherwise, we could blame the Holy Spirit in judgment for not convicting us of wrongdoing. The difference during the process of conversion is the Holy Spirit reveals to us our sinful habits in light of the cross. This difference makes all the difference in the world. It’s what makes or breaks us, that is, the cross.

This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

TE: Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

MM: I was hoping for an admission, too. But I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give up. Thank you.

You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/08/06 06:02 AM

TE: You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: I’m sorry I haven’t been clearer about it. The following inspired insights can answer your questions better than I can.

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

3SM 286
[The] sinful practice of self-abuse … weakens the physical, mental, and moral powers and bars the way to everlasting life. {3SM 286.1}

EV 266
The indulgence of unnatural appetite, whether for tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin. {Ev 265.4}

6T 91, 92
There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. {6T 91.4}

CD 268, 269
When the message comes to those who have not heard the truth for this time, they see that a great reformation must take place in their diet. They see that they must put away flesh food, because it creates an appetite for liquor, and fills the system with disease. By meat eating, the physical, mental, and moral powers are weakened. Man is built up from that which he eats. Animal passions bear sway as the result of meat eating, tobacco using, and liquor drinking. {CD 268.4}

6T 96
One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {6T 96.1}

……………….

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

………………….

TE: You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.

MM: "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" is better than “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?” However, neither one accurately reflects what I have written about it. Here is what I believe:

The Holy Spirit reveals to us, during the patient, protracted process of conversion, all of the sinful habits we cultivated since birth. We see them in light of the cross for the first time. If we confess each sinful habit, as it is revealed to us, we advance in the process of conversion. When there are no more sinful habits to confess, we experience the miracle of rebirth.

We are born gain fully aware of all of the sinful habits we cultivated before we were born again. In Christ, we do not act out our former sinful habits. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/08/06 10:00 PM

TE: You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: I’m sorry I haven’t been clearer about it. The following inspired insights can answer your questions better than I can.

I don't know what you think the answer to my question is. I'm wanting to know if you think the things I listed are sinful habits. If I had to guess, I would say your answer would be "yes," but I would prefer a straight "yes" if that's how you feel. Also, if you are not comfortable with a straight "yes" answer, I would like you to qualify your answer.

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

So you agree?

………………….

TE: You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.

MM: "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" is better than “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?” However, neither one accurately reflects what I have written about it. Here is what I believe:

The Holy Spirit reveals to us, during the patient, protracted process of conversion, all of the sinful habits we cultivated since birth.

We see them in light of the cross for the first time. If we confess each sinful habit, as it is revealed to us, we advance in the process of conversion. When there are no more sinful habits to confess, we experience the miracle of rebirth.

We are born gain fully aware of all of the sinful habits we cultivated before we were born again. In Christ, we do not act out our former sinful habits. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

Ok, thanks for explaining your thought. I'm curious if anyone here agrees with you. I think I'll start a topic on this. It's a bit different than this topic because it gets into how justification by faith works. I think you did a pretty good job here explaining your thoughts. At least, I believe I understand your point of view a bit better than I did.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 12:22 AM

TE: 1) You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? 2) This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: 1) We must confess them, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. We cannot crucify them until the instant we are born again and begin partaking of the divine nature. In other words, we cannot resist acting them out in thought, word, or deed until we start abiding in Jesus. 2) Yes.

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

………………

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: So you agree?

MM: Yes. The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

……………………..

TE: Ok, thanks for explaining your thought.

MM: You’re welcome. Of course, I didn’t explain sanctification, post-conversion repentance, or dormant, uncultivated, inherited traits and tendencies.

TE: I'm curious if anyone here agrees with you.

MM: As do I.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 01:05 AM

TE: 1) You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? 2) This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: 1) We must confess them, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. We cannot crucify them until the instant we are born again and begin partaking of the divine nature. In other words, we cannot resist acting them out in thought, word, or deed until we start abiding in Jesus. 2) Yes.

So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

………………

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: So you agree?

MM: Yes. The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

Are you implying that Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote 1 Cor. 13:12? Paul was speaking of a future event, being known as we are known, and if 1 Cor. 13:12 applies to being converted, then Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote this.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 03:58 PM

Quote.
The only way we can remain free from repeating a former sin is to abide in Jesus. That is the one and only condition for staying free. In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It is impossible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Here’s what Jesus, John, and Paul wrote about it:
You also asked - How long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins? Again, I believe it happened the instant God revealed them to Paul. I do not believe God reveals our sinful habits to us and then we gradually outgrow them over the course of a lifetime of sinning less and less often until we finally cease sinning.
Unquote.

So, why did Paul said he is still the Chief of sinners at the day he wrote the letter to Timothy, which I don’t know how many years after his conversion, but I think it was a long time. So, Paul realized that he still sins till the day he wrote his letter to Timothy, and we don’t know until when he could overcome his habitual sins.

The same John said in 1 John 1:8,10.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. F we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

We could never reach a perfect sinless life, not a single day. You might think you are sinless and hasn’t committed a sin this day, but that is not true. Sin is a part of your life, God safe you in your sins and he would justify you by your faith whenever you have tried your best to live by the Spirit, no matter the result.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Will

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 06:25 PM

James,
It is when we lay hold of Jesus CHrist that we are righteous. His character becomes our character, we are to have this moind in you that was in Christ.
We are sinful by nature, and every now and then the old man wants to come back out. THis is where we need to pray and ask GOd for strength, and be delivered.
Therefore submit yourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee.
There were plenty of sinners in the camp when the Israelites were int he wilderness, but they were all made righteous when they laid hands on the priests. I'll find the verse that descxribes this later on today.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 08:09 PM

TE: So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

MM: Correct. They may be in the process of converting, but they cannot experience the miracle of true, genuine conversion until they confess and crucify all the sinful habits they cultivated. Here is what Sister White wrote about it:

CD 62, 63
Let none who profess godliness regard with indifference the health of the body, and flatter themselves that intemperance is no sin, and will not affect their spirituality. A close sympathy exists between the physical and the moral nature. The standard of virtue is elevated or degraded by the physical habits. Excessive eating of the best of food will produce a morbid condition of the moral feelings. And if the food is not the most healthful, the effects will be still more injurious. Any habit which does not promote healthful action in the human system, degrades the higher and nobler faculties. Wrong habits of eating and drinking lead to errors in thought and action. Indulgence of appetite strengthens the animal propensities, giving them the ascendancy over the mental and spiritual powers. {CD 62.4}

"Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul," is the language of the apostle Peter. Many regard this warning as applicable only to the licentious; but it has a broader meaning. It guards against every injurious gratification of appetite or passion. It is a most forcible warning against the use of such stimulants and narcotics as tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and morphine. These indulgences may well be classed among the lusts that exert a pernicious influence upon moral character. The earlier these hurtful habits are formed, the more firmly will they hold their victim in slavery to lust, and the more certainly will they lower the standard of spirituality. {CD 62.5}

……………………..

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: Are you implying that Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote 1 Cor. 13:12? Paul was speaking of a future event, being known as we are known, and if 1 Cor. 13:12 applies to being converted, then Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote this.

MM: I wasn’t quoting it in that sense. What I mean is - the Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Nothing is left hidden to be revealed later on, after we are born again. Here is how Sister White saw it:

4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. {4T 16.4}

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

GC 468
The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

Do you think these insights support what I posted?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/09/06 08:23 PM

JS: The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

MM: Okay. I'll keep studying. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully Jesus can deliver us from sinning.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 04:56 AM

JS: The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

MM: Okay. I'll keep studying. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully Jesus can deliver us from sinning.

Unquote.

We all keep studying, I may wrong, but till then, I will remain in my position.

We are saved by the grace of God, not by our faith and not by our perfect works thanks to our faith in Christ.

What does saved by grace mean?

According to me:
1. God saved us through the blood of Jesus Christ
2. God saved us through the righteousness of Christ imputed to us
3. God saved us through the righteousness of Christ imparted to us

What is Justification by faith?

According to me:
People who believed in Christ are justified for their faith whenever they have tried their best to live by the Spirit.

Those Israelites who looked up at the bronze serpent uphold by Moses in the wilderness would be healed instantly. Are they justified to continue living because of their faith? I doubt it? Many of them looked up with unbelief, but they too were healed because they followed what was instructed to them, even with unbelief.

Does result matter to be justified? There are many examples in the bible that result is not the point. The point is that God saved us by his grace.

We are asked to belief in Christ, we are asked to live with faith in Him, we are asked to walk after the Spirit, we are asked to keep his commandments, we are asked to love each other, we are asked to be perfect at His coming, we are asked to be holy at His coming, but are these all a state or condition that unless we achieved it we would not enter the gate of heaven? I don’t think so.

There is no guarantee that we could die daily, there is no guarantee that we could live a perfect sinless life, even though the Spirit is working hard in us, but he just cooperate with you whenever you want. It is all depend to us, to our will, to what we want, and what we want is satisfying the flesh, which is natural.

So, I think, if the one saved and get to heaven are only those who are perfect, who are holy, who reached that state and condition of perfect righteous and sinless, then they are all saved by works. Works of faith that saved them!

But the bible said we are saved by grace through faith.

That is clear, grace does save us, faith brought us to Christ to receive his imputed and imparted righteousness in the judgment, which mean, receiving the grace of God that saved us.

In His love

James S

Posted By: 5th Generation

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 09:13 AM

I have not read all the previous commentsa and therefore hope I am not merely repeating thoughts on this most important topic.
EGW makes an amazing statement in COL "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." {COL 69.1} It seems to me that if we are to have His character we will be perfect, since Jesus was perfect. No doubt we are sinners but Christ has removed our sins as we confess them and thus we stand perfect after confession, however to be perfect as Jesus is means (as I understand) to stop sinning. John 16:8,9 says speaking of the Comforter 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; The important portion being that sin is a lack of belief in Jesus and the sinning is the fruit of it. Romans goes on to say in the last part of the verse "for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."
In GC we read:
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them. {GC 489.2}
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {GC 489.3}
This is the true issue that was so much of a problem in 1888 with Jones and Waggoner. The message of perfection is Righteousness by faith. Bible quotes such as "Sin shall not have dominion over you." "Awake to righteousness, and sin not." "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it." "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." Romans 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:34; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Jude 24. All bring me to the same point that perfection and an end of sinning must be possible or I am agreeing that satan's power is greter than God's for it is God who will as it says in Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. God's good pleasure is to take us to the place of harmony with Him and that can only be when we are no longer sinning as Christ did..The Lord will perform this work in us. I have a dear friend who for years has struggled with tobacco, quit and start and never getting the victory. It has only been since he came to the place where he fell at Jesus feet, TOTALLY defeated in his own efforts saying to Jesus that it was impossible for him to stop and Jesus would have to do it for him that he has gained the victory. God is well aware of our condition but I believe He can change us totally Ezekiel says 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. This is God's promise to us and before (as I understand) He can return we must allow Him to transform us into the image of Jesus Christ. Colossians says 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
I believe God will do all these but we must choose and the choice is daily. I look forward to other thoughts. May God bless .
terry

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 06:40 PM

Thanks so much for your input, Terry!

If you put in breaks between the paragraphs, it makes it easier to read. You can do this by using the "Enter" key to make a space between the paragraphs. Also you can use the quote tag to quote material. For example:

Quote:

Quoted text.

You do this by typing "[" followed by "quote]" followed by the text you want to quote, and then closing the tag by typing "[" followed by "\quote]".

Hope that makes sense, and hope to hear more from you!

Welcome,

Tom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 08:30 PM

Terry, it sounds like you and I are in agreement. Please take the time to read this thread from the beginning and let me know if you think we are in agreement. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 10:54 PM

No, regarding if the quotes you provided support your position. The quotes present that a radical transformation takes place, and there's no doubt about that. The transformation is described here:

Quote:

The means to conversion is beholding Christ, in whom we see God's love and character. The sight of Him subdues the heart, leading the sinner to seek to be reconciled.

The part that is absent in the quotes you provided, and in Scripture, is the idea that we have to made aware of every sinful habit and confess them before being converted.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/11/06 10:58 PM

TE: So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

MM: Correct.

So no one who had not given up smoking or drinking at the time they died will be in heaven?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/12/06 01:05 AM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/12/06 03:11 AM

TE: The part that is absent in the quotes you provided, and in Scripture, is the idea that we have to made aware of every sinful habit and confess them before being converted.

MM: Not so. Even in your quote it is there – “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Not one sinful, cultivated habit is left unrevealed, to be brought to our attention later on.

There's nothing in the quote that says what you wrote. You just added it, without justification.

TE: So no one who had not given up smoking or drinking at the time they died will be in heaven?

MM: Why didn’t they give up smoking or drinking? Were they convicted of the sinfulness of smoking or drinking but refused to quit?

You shouldn't be asking this. You have stated that *every* sinful habit is revealed, without exception. You have also identified smoking and drinking as sinful habits. So if every habit must be revealed before one is converted, and smoking and drinking are sinful habits, then clearly, based on what you have stated, these habits would have had to have been revealed. So you shouldn't be asking for clarification.

If the person could be in heaven for the reason that they were not convicted of the sinful habit, then your assertion that no one can be converted unless every sinful habit is revealed and confessed is false. You would have to replace it with the assertion that one is not lost unless the sinful habit is one which has been revealed and the person refused to repent, in which case you would be in agreement with me and many others.

Posted By: 5th Generation

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/12/06 09:49 AM

I wondered if it is too much to consider that God who knows each and every heart completly decides on the intentions of a persons heart and character and how they live up to the light they have received.

I don't know if an ignorant person in Africa knows about ??? Sabbath??? or perhaps who Jesus is and yet God judges them fairly.

Romans 2 speaks to this.
2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

(There is a standard required of every man regardless of knowledge and it comes from the Holy Spirit as we know from John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:)

Romans goes on in chapter 2;
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

It is my understanding that God is revealing more and more truth until all is known that He deems sufficient and some will live up to all the revealed light so that in fact they will truly represent God's character and be ready for translation.

Proverbs 4:18 says But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

That perfect day as I see it refers to the end of time.

Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

I don't believe they knew all things and time has proven that truth is constantly unfolding.

E.G. White says In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form. {COL 127.4}

As the people of the last days I believe God's truths, His plans and His CHARACTER are being revealed fully so that we can glorify Him in fullness by standing in perfection of character by His strength.

By my understanding it is then we will be sealed by God having His name written in our forehead.

For those that died in the past without having lived in perfect obedience to God's principles it is my belief that God judges on the basis that they lived up to what they knew and the fact that He knows exactly how a person will respond to the balance of truth needed for acceptance into heaven.

I thank God that he is able to change me completely that I may stand faultless before the throne, by Christ forgiving my sins before conversion, by forgiving me when I fall now and by giving me a new heart and a new spirit that knows His way for me is perfect and as I understand Him and the beauty of His purpose for me my choices will choose His way and by my choices they will allow God to make me a new creature that will not sin.

May God bless this discussion that we may all learn from each other and come to unity of spirit.

Terry

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/12/06 09:15 PM

MM: Not so. Even in your quote it is there – “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Not one sinful, cultivated habit is left unrevealed, to be brought to our attention later on.

TE: There's nothing in the quote that says what you wrote. You just added it, without justification.

MM: I disagree. Here’s how I see it:

“If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.” The word “sins” is plural. Every sinful habit we have cultivated crucified Jesus. Not one doesn’t. Therefore, we will be led to repent of each one. Not one will be reserved by the Holy Spirit to be dealt with after we are born again.

“Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” The “new life” does not include the sinful habits we cultivated during our old life. Our “thoughts and desires” are in obedience to the will of Christ. Not one is allowed to continue cultivating our former sinful habits.

…………………

TE: If the person could be in heaven for the reason that they were not convicted of the sinful habit, then your assertion that no one can be converted unless every sinful habit is revealed and confessed is false. You would have to replace it with the assertion that one is not lost unless the sinful habit is one which has been revealed and the person refused to repent, in which case you would be in agreement with me and many others.

MM: I agree. There are times when God chooses not to point out to certain individuals that smoking and drinking are sinful habits that must be confessed and forsaken before they can be rewarded with eternal life.

In such cases God winks at ignorance. Thus, they are not guilty of refusing to obey God. The Gentiles Paul mentioned in Romans fall into this category of people who will be saved in spite of the fact they did not know all truth.

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

It would be fruitful to explore why God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits. In well-informed America, would God choose not to reveal to smokers and drinkers that these sinful habits must be given up in order to experience the miracle of rebirth?

For example, during one of our many public SDA evangelistic crusades, would God choose not to reveal these truths? Would He choose to not make giving up smoking and drinking a prerequisite for rebirth?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/12/06 09:37 PM

Terry: It is my understanding that God is revealing more and more truth until all is known that He deems sufficient and some will live up to all the revealed light so that in fact they will truly represent God's character and be ready for translation.

MM: Does this apply to truths necessary to crucify our cultivated sinful habits? In other words, is God withholding truths needful to overcome our cultivated sinful habits? Is He waiting to reveal these truths until the end of time? If so, this doesn’t make sense to me. It makes God responsible for the cultivated sinful habits we do not crucify. Do you see what I mean?

Terry: For those that died in the past without having lived in perfect obedience to God's principles it is my belief that God judges on the basis that they lived up to what they knew and the fact that He knows exactly how a person will respond to the balance of truth needed for acceptance into heaven.

MM: I agree with this principle, but it sounds like we are applying it differently. I believe it applies to intellectual truths, and not to truths required to cultivate character. God will not change our character when returns. All character defects must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we die.

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}

I realize God makes certain exceptions in cases involving the Gentiles Paul referred to in Romans, but we cannot make wide sweeping generalizations based on it. For example, Sister White wrote about certain slaves not making it to heaven:

EW 276
I saw that the slave master [SEE APPENDIX.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

Posted By: 5th Generation

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/13/06 08:46 AM

MM: Does this apply to truths necessary to crucify our cultivated sinful habits? In other words, is God withholding truths needful to overcome our cultivated sinful habits? Is He waiting to reveal these truths until the end of time? If so, this doesn’t make sense to me. It makes God responsible for the cultivated sinful habits we do not crucify. Do you see what I mean?

Terry: my intention was not to infer that God witholds truth needed to overcome our sinful habits. Faith is the victory over our habits; God will change our needs and desires if we will let Him but it can take deeep faith. What God; in my understanding is revealing to us in these last days is His character. His character is what we need to emulate, by His power, that we will be able to glorify Him to the world and be ready for translation. Our relationship with God must be based on a true understanding of who He is and how He deals with humanity and the sin problem. If we do not know Him how can we truly have an everlasting relationship with Him?

MM: I agree with this principle, but it sounds like we are applying it differently. I believe it applies to intellectual truths, and not to truths required to cultivate character. God will not change our character when returns. All character defects must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we die.

Terry: Indeed God will not change our character except we allow Him. A person can have a character totally in harmony with God and yet not know all the truth about God. I believe the thief on the cross is one of the best examples, David, a man after god's heart is a second and so on. these are acceptable to God and into the kingdom.

MM: I realize God makes certain exceptions in cases involving the Gentiles Paul referred to in Romans, but we cannot make wide sweeping generalizations based on it. For example, Sister White wrote about certain slaves not making it to heaven:

EW 276
I saw that the slave master [SEE APPENDIX.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

Terry: Sister White is in harmony with scripture the key I believe is in her statement that he knows nothing of God. in other words he has not hearkened to the Holy Spirit.

Terry: I wonder, do we subconsciously struggle with giving God authority over our understanding and this then becomes the wall we run into that makes it seem so difficult to give up those sinful practices.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

May God bless all of us as we search for the tools we need in the completion of partnering with God to fulfill His purpose in us.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/13/06 04:51 PM

Quote:

MM: I agree. There are times when God chooses not to point out to certain individuals that smoking and drinking are sinful habits that must be confessed and forsaken before they can be rewarded with eternal life.

In such cases God winks at ignorance.

This is agreeing with what I said, and disagreeing with you said previously. You had been saying that every sinful habit must be revealed before conversion, which you are now seeing is not the case, which is good.

I'm glad we're finally on the same page.

So God reveals some sinful habits before conversion, and some afterwards, which is what everyone here believes.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/13/06 07:31 PM

TE: I'm glad we're finally on the same page.

MM: Tom, there is more to it. Here’s what I wrote about it:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Please address the points I raised. Thank you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/13/06 07:44 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/14/06 12:27 AM

MM, I don't know what point you want addressed.

What I see is this:

1)You wrote that all sinful habits, without exception, must be revealed by the Holy Spirit to us, and confessed, before we are converted.

2)I asked if smoking and drinking are sinful habits.

3)You said yes, and exempted these habits as being among those which must be revealed by God and confessed before one is converted.

So what this means is that God reveals some sinful habits before conversion, and some He doesn't, which is what I was saying, making you on the same page with the rest of us.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/14/06 12:31 AM

I do see a couple of questions that can be addressed:

Quote:

It would be fruitful to explore why God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits. In well-informed America, would God choose not to reveal to smokers and drinkers that these sinful habits must be given up in order to experience the miracle of rebirth?

For example, during one of our many public SDA evangelistic crusades, would God choose not to reveal these truths? Would He choose to not make giving up smoking and drinking a prerequisite for rebirth?

Regarding well-informed America, I know many who smoke and drink who have been converted.

Regarding SDA evangelistic crusades, God doesn't choose what to bring out in these crusades, the evangelists do.

Regarding giving up smoking and drinking being a prerequisite for rebirth, it never has been. The prerequites for rebirth are repentance and faith.

Quote:

The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalm 34:38)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/14/06 08:24 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/15/06 12:01 AM

Tom, by agreeing that there are times when God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits to baptismal candidates, before they experience the miracle of rebirth, I want to qualify it by explaining the extenuating circumstances. Again, we both agree it is God who chooses when to reveal or not to reveal certain sinful habits. It is not up to the evangelist.

Of course it's up to the evangelist what he chooses to talk about. God isn't limited by an evangelist, of course, but your hypothetical was dealing with an SDA evangelist speaking about the health message, so in this scenario it's likely that what the user is convicted about will have to do with what the evangelist talks about. But the health message is often brought up after Christ is anyway, so if the listeners respond to the invitation to accept Christ before the healh message is talked about, it's likely none of those things would have been brought up. But as a converted person, once they are brought up, later on, they could be convicted about them then. That's a likely scenario.

In the case of smokers and drinkers, especially in well-informed places like America, I do not believe God approves of SDA evangelists baptizing them before they confess and forsake smoking and drinking.

Conversion is not dependent upon baptism.

I realize it happens, but I do not believe God ordains it. I believe God expects SDA evangelists and pastors to thoroughly indoctrinate baptismal candidates in matters of diet, dress, health, and doctrine before consenting to baptize them.

Do you agree?

None of this matters, as far as the issue we were discussing is involved. I agree that baptismal candidates should be properly instructed.

You had said earlier that all sinful habits cultivated from birth had to be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before one could be converted. This is false. You have admitted this is false by allowing an exception for smoking and drinking. You should acknowledge that your original statement was wrong, and that you are presenting the same idea as the rest of us have been, which is that God reveals some sinful habits, and some He doesn't (He "winks" at them, to use your language).

Posted By: 5th Generation

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/15/06 09:38 AM

MM: What do you mean by the “truth about God”? Are there truths, already revealed and not yet revealed, that do not contribute to the perfection of Christian character?

Terry: Christian perfection is to be like Christ. How can one be like Christ except that he knows His character, His ways and His plans for us. How many truly know who God is and what His plans are? In these last days each person, I believe must have a true relationship with God; one that is based on a spiritual and truthful understanding of the principles that God sets as His own and ours. These are the eternal principles that will fulfill all life for eternity. These are the truths God has set before us for our acceptance or rejection.

MM: Also, are the 144,000 the only ones ready to be translated alive? In other words, what if the people who will come up in the first resurrection hadn’t died – were they also ready to be translated alive? What was it about Enoch and Elijah that made it possible for them to be translated alive? Were they just as ready as the 144,000?

Terry: From E.G.White
Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {1T 59.1}
The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads were the words God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us, who could wash one another's feet, and salute the brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshiped at our feet.
60
{1T 59.2}
Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence we all gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, and became lighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire; a rainbow was over the cloud, while around it were ten thousand angels, singing a most lovely song; and upon it sat the Son of man. His hair was white and curly and lay on His shoulders, and upon His head were many crowns. His feet had the appearance of fire; in His right hand was a sharp sickle, in His left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched His children through and through. {1T 60.1}
Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out: "Who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless?" The angels ceased to sing, and there was a time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke: "Those who have clean hands and pure hearts shall be able to stand; My grace is sufficient for you." At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sang again, while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried: "Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise." Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, "Alleluia!" as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed, and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. {1T 60.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/15/06 05:20 PM

The truth about God is that He is kind, and gracious, merciful, compassionate, patient, One who puts the interests of His children above His own, regardless of the cost to Himself. He is just like Jesus Christ.

The enemy has lied about God's character, portraying him to be altogether such a one as himself, who will resort to any means to get His own way. God is portrayed as being selfish, dictatorial, harsh, and arbitrary.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/16/06 07:24 PM

TE: Conversion is not dependent upon baptism.

MM: Tom, I believe the following inspired insights disagree with the conclusion that conversion is not dependent upon baptism. Do you agree?

EV 306
Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. Letter 174, 1909. {Ev 306.3}

EV 307
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {Ev 307.1}

LHU 79
In the submission of Christ to the ordinance of baptism, He shows the sinner one of the important steps in true conversion. . . The steps in conversion, plainly marked out, are repentance, faith in Christ as the world's Redeemer, faith in His death, burial, and resurrection, shown by baptism, and His ascension on high to plead in the sinner's behalf. {LHU 79.2, 4}

SR 289
The descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles was not an equivalent for baptism. The requisite steps in conversion, in all cases, are faith, repentance, and baptism. Thus the true Christian church are united in one Lord, one faith, one baptism. {SR 289.2}

………………………

TE: You had said earlier that all sinful habits cultivated from birth had to be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before one could be converted. This is false.

MM: Again, I believe the following inspired insights disagree with the conclusion that conversion does not require giving up our cultivated sinful habits. Do you agree?

SD300
The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. {SD 300.3}

6T 65
Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character.

Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. {6T 95.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/16/06 08:17 PM

Terry: A person can have a character totally in harmony with God and yet not know all the truth about God.

MM: What do you mean by the “truth about God”? Are there truths, already revealed and not yet revealed, that do not contribute to the perfection of Christian character?

Terry: Christian perfection is to be like Christ. How can one be like Christ except that he knows His character, His ways and His plans for us. How many truly know who God is and what His plans are? In these last days each person, I believe must have a true relationship with God; one that is based on a spiritual and truthful understanding of the principles that God sets as His own and ours. These are the eternal principles that will fulfill all life for eternity. These are the truths God has set before us for our acceptance or rejection.

MM: How can a person have a character “totally in harmony with God” and yet “not know all the truth about God”? Which “eternal principles” and “truths” can we not know and yet still “have a character totally in harmony with God”?

……………………..

MM: Also, are the 144,000 the only ones ready to be translated alive? In other words, what if the people who will come up in the first resurrection hadn’t died – were they also ready to be translated alive? What was it about Enoch and Elijah that made it possible for them to be translated alive? Were they just as ready as the 144,000?

Terry: From E.G. White

MM: The quotes you posted were great, but they didn’t address the questions I posted. I realize the 144,000 have a special place and standing in heaven and the New Earth, but my questions have to do with individual qualification.

Are the 144,000 more qualified to be translated alive than those who are resurrected? Are they more holy, more righteous, and more sinless? Are they the first humans to “reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” (HP 46)

If so, what made the difference? Why was it possible for them, but not for the others, to reach a condition of sinlessness? Is it because God is waiting until the end of time to reveal the truths necessary to make it possible to reach such a state?

…………………….

By the way, here is an interesting observation concerning the 144,000:

GC 621, 622
Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. {GC 622.1}

During the time of trouble, after probation closes, the 144,000 still have “earthliness” which “must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected”. And some of them still have “lessons of faith”, which they neglected to learn before probation closed, that “they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.”

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/18/06 04:27 AM

Quote:

LHU 79
In the submission of Christ to the ordinance of baptism, He shows the sinner one of the important steps in true conversion. . . The steps in conversion, plainly marked out, are repentance, faith in Christ as the world's Redeemer, faith in His death, burial, and resurrection, shown by baptism, and His ascension on high to plead in the sinner's behalf. {LHU 79.2, 4}

This points out that true conversion is "shown" by baptism, which is correct. It's not a prerequsite as I was using the term, which was in the sense of being born again. Being born again is an internal experience which is manifest by external acts.

Now conversion can also be defined as "an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion," and in this sense it would be proper to say that baptism is a necessary part of conversion, but this wasn't the sense I was using the term.

One is converted when one responds to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, as described here:

Quote:

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/18/06 06:51 PM

Tom, did you overlook these quotes:

SR 289
The descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles was not an equivalent for baptism. The requisite steps in conversion, in all cases, are faith, repentance, and baptism. Thus the true Christian church are united in one Lord, one faith, one baptism. {SR 289.2}

EV 307
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {Ev 307.1}

1. What does "requisite steps” mean to you?

2. What does “a positive condition” mean to you?

You seem to be insisting that baptism is NOT required to complete the long, protracted, patient process of conversion, that people can experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized.

………………….

TE: You had said earlier that all sinful habits cultivated from birth had to be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before one could be converted. This is false.

MM: Again, I believe the following inspired insights disagree with the conclusion that conversion does not require giving up our cultivated sinful habits.

Do you agree?

SD300
The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. . . . The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. {SD 300.3}

1. What does “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man” mean to you?

You seem to be insisting that it doesn’t include all of the sins that were practiced before conversion, that it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

6T 65
Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. {6T 95.1}

2. What does “have they wrong habits and practices” mean to you?

You seem to be insisting that the “special meetings” pastors are required to have with baptismal candidates, to help them understand and experience the biblical meaning of true conversion, to teach them which “evil habits are to be given up” – that these meetings 1) do not include “plainly” showing them all of their sinful habits, 2) that the pastor must wisely overlook certain sinful habits, 3) that he should save addressing them until sometime after they are baptized.

3. What does “the sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away” mean to you?

You seem to be insisting that it doesn’t include all forms of disobedience, that it wisely and purposely excludes certain sins.

5. What does “a warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character” mean to you?

You seem to be insisting that it doesn’t include “every” evil trait of character, that it excludes certain sinful habits.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/18/06 10:23 PM

No, I didn't overlook the quotes. I explained them in what I wrote.

Regarding giving up cultivated habits, you seem to be going back again. You agreed that drinking and smoking are sinful habits, and that some are converted while still taking part of these habits. Once you say that you can no longer insist that every sinful habit must be given up, because here are two that don't need to be.

Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

Please bear in mind that I am speaking of conversion in the sense of being born again, of accepting Christ as one's personal savior, not in terms of becoming converted to the SDA church.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/19/06 03:09 AM

Here is what you believe Sister White taught:

1. She did not teach baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people can experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized.

2. When she wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, before consenting to baptize someone, it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

3. The “special meetings” SDA pastors are required to have with baptismal candidates, to help them understand and experience the biblical meaning of true conversion, to teach them which “evil habits are to be given up” – that these meetings 1) do not include “plainly” showing them all of their sinful habits, 2) that the pastor must wisely overlook certain sinful habits, 3) that he should wait to address them until sometime after they are baptized.

4. When she wrote “the sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away”, before consenting to baptize someone, it doesn’t include all forms of disobedience, that it wisely and purposely excludes certain sins.

5. When she wrote “a warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character”, from the moment someone is baptized, it doesn’t include “every” evil trait of character, that it excludes certain sinful habits.

..................

TE: Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

..................

TE: Please bear in mind that I am speaking of conversion in the sense of being born again, of accepting Christ as one's personal savior, not in terms of becoming converted to the SDA church.

MM: In light of the inspired counsel regarding the “special meetings” mentioned above, do you see a difference between rebirth and baptism and becoming a member of God’s Remnant Church?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/19/06 07:35 AM

MM, it doesn't appear to me upon reading your last post that you read my post #82682. Either that or you didn't understand what I was saying. Otherwise I don't understand why you would write you what you did. Please take a look at the post.

Also this statement of yours:

Quote:

2. When she wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, before consenting to baptize someone, it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

is way off as a characterization of what I've written. I've never written anything like this. You would do better to quote what I've written than to put words into my mouth, or pen. Either that or be more humble in your approach. Say something like, "It appears to me that this is what you have in mind..." or ask a question, "Is this what you mean" rather than just assert something which you have no way of knowing is true.

Of course there's a difference between rebirth and becoming an SDA. What do you understand the new birth to be?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/19/06 10:08 PM

TE: MM, it doesn't appear to me upon reading your last post that you read my post #82682. Either that or you didn't understand what I was saying. Otherwise I don't understand why you would write you what you did. Please take a look at the post.

MM: Here is what you wrote: Now conversion can also be defined as "an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion," and in this sense it would be proper to say that baptism is a necessary part of conversion, but this wasn't the sense I was using the term. (82682)

Does this mean you agree with what I’ve been saying about the SOP quotes I’ve been posting? In other words, I have been asking questions specifically related the SOP quotes that describe conversion and baptism and joining the SDA church.

………………………

TE: You would do better to quote what I've written than to put words into my mouth, or pen. Either that or be more humble in your approach. Say something like, "It appears to me that this is what you have in mind..." or ask a question, "Is this what you mean" rather than just assert something which you have no way of knowing is true.

MM: In post #82716 I expressed my understanding of your views by prefacing each statement with “You seem to be insisting ...” In response to it, you posted the following: Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

From this response it appeared to me that you agreed with each one of the statements I posted. I reworded them in the following post. In response to this you posted that statement number 2 “is way off as a characterization of what I've written. I've never written anything like this. You would do better to quote what I've written than to put words into my mouth, or pen.”

Please do me a favor and address each one of the five statements I posted and explain why you agree or disagree with it. Thank you.

……………………….

TE: Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

..................

TE: Please bear in mind that I am speaking of conversion in the sense of being born again, of accepting Christ as one's personal savior, not in terms of becoming converted to the SDA church.

MM: In light of the inspired counsel regarding the “special meetings” mentioned above, do you see a difference between rebirth and baptism and becoming a member of God’s Remnant Church?

..................

TE: What do you understand the new birth to be?

MM: The completion of the long, patient, protracted process of conversion.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/19/06 11:41 PM

MM, this is a response to the 5 statements you requested.

1. She did not teach baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people can experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized.

I don't see how I can respond to this other than to say that I don't agree with your assertion that I don't think she didn't teach this.

2. When she wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, before consenting to baptize someone, it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

I don't see things in these terms. I wrote in detail about how I see conversion. I think in general the difference between us on this question, or at least a big difference, is that your view of what constitutes sinful habits is very limited, to my point of view. From my perspective, it simply would not be possible for God to reveal all of our sins to us at once. I agree with Waggoner on this, who said something to the effect that "probation wouldn't be long enough to wait to confess all my sins" and that what God does is to present to us certain representative sins.

Also I see that the problem that we have centers heavily upon our view of God's character. EGW speaks of how we can have idols in our way of thinking just as much as out of wood. Thus we may be guilty of the sinful habit of idolatry, without having any idea that we are so doing. Your way of looking at things, and perceiving things, appears to me to be much more on the basis of behavior. You see that certain things are wrong, and must be given up. I see things more in terms of our way of thinking is wrong, and must be changed. We need to be healed from the effects of our wrong thinking. We need to learn to think correctly, and this takes time.

3. The “special meetings” SDA pastors are required to have with baptismal candidates, to help them understand and experience the biblical meaning of true conversion, to teach them which “evil habits are to be given up” – that these meetings 1) do not include “plainly” showing them all of their sinful habits, 2) that the pastor must wisely overlook certain sinful habits, 3) that he should wait to address them until sometime after they are baptized.

Same response as 1)

4. When she wrote “the sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away”, before consenting to baptize someone, it doesn’t include all forms of disobedience, that it wisely and purposely excludes certain sins.

This isn't clear to me. (that is, what point you are trying to make isn't clear to me).

5. When she wrote “a warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character”, from the moment someone is baptized, it doesn’t include “every” evil trait of character, that it excludes certain sinful habits.

I think it's obvious that "every evil trait of character" means "every evil trait of character of which one is aware." That goes without saying, doesn't it? How can we fight against evil traits we have that we don't know about?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/19/06 11:59 PM

TE: MM, it doesn't appear to me upon reading your last post that you read my post #82682. Either that or you didn't understand what I was saying. Otherwise I don't understand why you would write you what you did. Please take a look at the post.

MM: Here is what you wrote: Now conversion can also be defined as "an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion," and in this sense it would be proper to say that baptism is a necessary part of conversion, but this wasn't the sense I was using the term. (82682)

Does this mean you agree with what I’ve been saying about the SOP quotes I’ve been posting? In other words, I have been asking questions specifically related the SOP quotes that describe conversion and baptism and joining the SDA church.

That's not the topic I've been discussing. I think the baptismal candidates should be carefully prepared.

………………………

TE: You would do better to quote what I've written than to put words into my mouth, or pen. Either that or be more humble in your approach. Say something like, "It appears to me that this is what you have in mind..." or ask a question, "Is this what you mean" rather than just assert something which you have no way of knowing is true.

MM: In post #82716 I expressed my understanding of your views by prefacing each statement with “You seem to be insisting ...” In response to it, you posted the following: Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

From this response it appeared to me that you agreed with each one of the statements I posted. I reworded them in the following post. In response to this you posted that statement number 2 “is way off as a characterization of what I've written. I've never written anything like this. You would do better to quote what I've written than to put words into my mouth, or pen.”

Please do me a favor and address each one of the five statements I posted and explain why you agree or disagree with it. Thank you.

Your whole way of framing things is completely different than how I think. For example, it makes many of questions you ask of the "Did you stop beating your wife?" type. There are implicity assumptions that I have to buy into if I were to answer the question "yes" or "no," which is why I ofter refuse to do so. I'm not being evasive, as it appears to you, but just not allowing you to frame a yes/no question in a way which would violate my perspective.

……………………….

TE: Regarding the questions of what does such and such mean to me, I understand it to mean every sinful habit etc. that we know to be wrong. It's not dealing with things we don't know about (such as smoking and drinking, for example, if we don't know these things are wrong).

MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

No.

..................

TE: Please bear in mind that I am speaking of conversion in the sense of being born again, of accepting Christ as one's personal savior, not in terms of becoming converted to the SDA church.

MM: In light of the inspired counsel regarding the “special meetings” mentioned above, do you see a difference between rebirth and baptism and becoming a member of God’s Remnant Church?

One is reborn when one comes to Christ. One becomes a member of the SDA church by profession of faith or baptism.

..................

TE: What do you understand the new birth to be?

MM: The completion of the long, patient, protracted process of conversion.

That's not very clear. Actually not clear at all. Let me give a practical example. Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted? Or do you see conversion as only taking place when one becomes an SDA? Can any non-SDA's be saved? At what point do you see one to be converted? (by converted here I mean "born again")

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/20/06 10:28 PM

1. She did not teach baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people can experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized.

TE: I don't see how I can respond to this other than to say that I don't agree with your assertion that I don't think she didn't teach this.

MM: Okay, then, are you saying she did teach that baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people cannot experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized?

……………………………

2. When she wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, before consenting to baptize someone, it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

TE: From my perspective, it simply would not be possible for God to reveal all of our sins to us at once. I agree with Waggoner on this, who said something to the effect that "probation wouldn't be long enough to wait to confess all my sins" and that what God does is to present to us certain representative sins.

MM: Surely you recall the fact I agreed that God does not reveal the millions of individual sins we committed before we can be reborn. I agree with the idea that God reveals sinful habits, what Waggoner calls “representative sins”. For example, God reveals to us being impatient is a sinful habit we must confess and crucify before we can experience rebirth. He does not reveal to us the millions of times and different ways we were impatient.

So, with this in mind, do you agree that when Sister White wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, that she meant all the “representative sins”, or what I call cultivated sinful habits, which are the result of the millions of times and different ways we sinned, must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we can experience the miracle of rebirth?

………………………………

TE: You see that certain things are wrong, and must be given up. I see things more in terms of our way of thinking is wrong, and must be changed. We need to be healed from the effects of our wrong thinking. We need to learn to think correctly, and this takes time.

MM: Actually, I believe it is when God reveals to us, in light of the cross, our sinful habits that we understand why they are wrong and must be given up. Real conversion changes the thoughts and feelings and motives, which in turn affects the way we behave. Here is how Sister White put it:

5T 82, 83
There are few really consecrated men among us, few who have fought and conquered in the battle with self. Real conversion is a decided change of feelings and motives; it is a virtual taking leave of worldly connections, a hastening from their spiritual atmosphere, a withdrawing from the controlling power of their thoughts, opinions, and influences. The separation causes pain and bitterness to both parties. It is the variance which Christ declares that He came to bring. But the converted will feel a continual longing desire that their friends shall forsake all for Christ, knowing that, unless they do, there will be a final and eternal separation. The true Christian cannot, while with unbelieving friends, be light and trifling. The value of the souls for whom Christ died is too great. {5T 82.5}

He "that forsaketh not all that he hath," says Jesus, "cannot be My disciple." Whatever shall divert the affections from God must be given up. Mammon is the idol of many. Its golden chain binds them to Satan. Reputation and worldly honor are worshiped by another class. The life of selfish ease and freedom from responsibility is the idol of others. These are Satan's snares, set for unwary feet. But these slavish bands must be broken; the flesh must be crucified with the affections and lusts. We cannot be half the Lord's and half the world's. We are not God's people unless we are such entirely. Every weight, every besetting sin, must be laid aside. {5T 83.1}

…………………..

3. The “special meetings” SDA pastors are required to have with baptismal candidates, to help them understand and experience the biblical meaning of true conversion, to teach them which “evil habits are to be given up” – that these meetings 1) do not include “plainly” showing them all of their sinful habits, 2) that the pastor must wisely overlook certain sinful habits, 3) that he should wait to address them until sometime after they are baptized.

TE: Same response as 1)

MM: Okay, then, do you agree she did say that during “special meetings” pastors are required to point out their sinful habits, that none should be purposely overlooked until after they are baptized?

…………………………

4. When she wrote “the sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away”, before consenting to baptize someone, it doesn’t include all forms of disobedience, that it wisely and purposely excludes certain sins.

TE: This isn't clear to me. (that is, what point you are trying to make isn't clear to me).

MM: Do you agree she wrote that pastors are required to teach them to “put away” the “sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience” before consenting to baptize them? And that pastors must not purposely overlook certain types of disobedience?

…………………………..

5. When she wrote “a warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character”, from the moment someone is baptized, it doesn’t include “every” evil trait of character, that it excludes certain sinful habits.

TE: I think it's obvious that "every evil trait of character" means "every evil trait of character of which one is aware." That goes without saying, doesn't it? How can we fight against evil traits we have that we don't know about?

MM: Okay, you believe she did not mean “every” when she wrote “every sinful trait of character”. That’s what I thought. But, as you know, character is the result of repetitious thoughts, words, and actions. It is not the result of accident or ignorance. No one can think, say, or do the same kinds of things over and over and over again without realizing it. So, it makes sense that she meant "every" when wrote it. Else why would she say it?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/20/06 11:02 PM

TE: I think the baptismal candidates should be carefully prepared.

MM: I agree.

…………………………..

MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

TE: No.

MM: I agree. But what do you think the “truth” is regarding smoking and drinking? Do you agree that both are sinful habits that must be given up, that even moderate indulgences are sinful?

………………………….

TE: One is reborn when one comes to Christ. One becomes a member of the SDA church by profession of faith or baptism.

MM: Can the baptismal candidates Sister White described experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be baptized and join the Remnant Church?

…………………………..

TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth. Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

…………………………..

TE: Or do you see conversion as only taking place when one becomes an SDA?

MM: No.

TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

TE: At what point do you see one to be converted? (by converted here I mean "born again")

MM: After, in light of the cross, they confess and crucify the last sinful habit there is to be revealed to them, after they have completed the long, patient, protracted process of conversion, after they consent to be baptized.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/22/06 11:54 PM

I think we're talking past each other here. You seem to have a different conception of conversion from any one I've ever met, or read, or heard of.

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the majority of the saved are not SDA's, yet they smoke and drink (the smoking was especially true at the time EGW wrote this), as well as drink coffee, and other sinful habits. Yet they are saved. I don't see how this can make any sense to someone who holds the ideas you do. (I'm assuming you're aware of the reference I'm referring to. If not, I could try to find it.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/23/06 04:21 AM

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church.

Do you agree?

…………………………..

TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth.

Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

Do you agree?

…………………………..

TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

Do you agree?

.................

MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

TE: No.

MM: I am glad that we at least agree SDA pastors should not baptize people before they give up smoking and drinking.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/25/06 09:35 AM

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church.

Do you agree?

One does not have to be an SDA to be reborn. Is this what you are suggesting?

…………………………..

TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth.

Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

Do you agree?

It seems like you're reading a lot into a simple question. I believe many have been converted in these crusades.

…………………………..

TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

Do you agree?

I'm talking about right now. Can any non-SDA's be saved right now? Specifically, can any Catholics, who drink wine at mass, base saved? Can any protestants who drink wine with supper be saved? Or who smoke occasionally, like say a cigar, to celebrate the birth of a baby? Can they be saved?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/25/06 01:52 PM

I guess we could sumarise this as us being either like God (who wishes for as many people as possible to be bound for heaven) or us being like the devil (who wishes for as few people as possible to be bound for heaven). Whos dream are we living closest to?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/25/06 06:42 PM

Another question is, what is it that enables one to be saved? That is, what is God looking for?

I believe God will take all to heaven who would be happy there, and this will no doubt include many who we, in our stupidity, would exclude. But God looks at the heart, and knows those whose principles, whose deepest thoughts, are in harmony with His, which are the principles of self-sacrificing love.

To know God is to love Him. To know God is eternal life.

Knowing God is not primarily by means having sinful habits revealed and confessed (although these can get in the way, and need to be dealt with), but primarily by means of knowing Jesus Christ. He (not sinful habits) is the way, the truth, and the life.

Basically we see what Christ is about, and we say in our soul, "That's what I want!" We make the decision that we want to be like Him, that we want to live according to the principles He taught; We love the God He portrayed, and that's the God we want to present to others, the God we want to spend eternity with.

Merry Christmas.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/25/06 09:39 PM

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/26/06 06:35 PM

MM: Really? Then why does the SOP describe it as a long, patient, protracted process? I do not believe that in our day and age someone who has never heard the gospel before can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion by hearing Billy Graham talk about it once.

-The one doesnt contradict the other once we realise that it is not you, me or Billy Graham that does the heart work. We can probably safely assume that the Holy Spirit has been at work on the individuals for a long, long time, that they are just lacking once piece of the puzzle, knowledge of Jesus and when they learn that from pastor Grahams preaching, they are ready for baptism.
……………….
TV: Whos dream are we living closest to?

MM: As for me and my house – We serve the Lord. Hopefully every born again believer can say the same thing. "I know whom I have believed." (2 Tim. 1:12)

-In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

Merry Christmas
& a good new years.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/27/06 08:08 PM

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church. Do you agree?

TE: One does not have to be an SDA to be reborn. Is this what you are suggesting?

MM: No. I was referring specifically to the baptismal candidates Sister White described in 6T 91, 92.

I don't know why you're bringing this up. I wasn't discussing SDA baptismal candidates. This whole discussion I have not been discussing them.

…………………….

MM: Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time. Do you agree?

TE: I believe many have been converted in these crusades.

MM: Really?

Yes, really.

Then why does the SOP describe it as a long, patient, protracted process?

You make these jumps of logic, or non-logic, that have no place. There's no contradiction here. The obvious answer is that the end of the long, patient, protracted process is the Billy Graham crusade, where the person is converted.

I do not believe that in our day and age someone who has never heard the gospel before

Who said they never heard the gospel before? There's no basis for you to make the assumption that because a person is converted at a Billy Graham crusade, they never heard the gospel before, nor that there conversion was sudden.

can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion by hearing Billy Graham talk about it once.

……………….

TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved right now? Specifically, can any Catholics, who drink wine at mass, base saved? Can any protestants who drink wine with supper be saved? Or who smoke occasionally, like say a cigar, to celebrate the birth of a baby? Can they be saved?

MM: The Bible talks about “Gentiles”, people who have never heard the name of Jesus, being in the kingdom of God. Such people are not “saved” in the appointed manner, that is, the process Jesus described to Nicodemus.

You are confused if you think anyone can be saved in any other manner than by being born again.

These kinds of exceptions are not the rule. Whether or not someone is “saved” is up to God. He is the only One who can make exceptions to the rule. If God rewards smokers or drinkers or polygamists or any other practitioner of forbidden habits with eternal life, it will be based on exceptions to the rule.

The rule is, whoever comes to Christ will be saved. He is the Savior all of men. The exception would be that pagans may not know who Christ was, by having read about Him in a book, or hearing about Him from some preacher. But God is God, and is not limited by such things, and is able to use the Holy Spirit to convert by other means.

However, this is all irrelevant to our conversation. I wasn't talking about Gentiles who were not familiar with the Scriptures, but Christians who have accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and accept the teachings of Scripture, as best they understand it.

Many of these Christians drink moderately. This is not to defend drinking, but to point out to you that your idea that someone who takes a drink now and again cannot be saved is not Scriptural, nor is it common sense.

Also, when you open exceptions, you show that your original statement that for one to be born again, or converted, God must reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and these must all be confessed, was wrong. It's only a question of by how much it is wrong.

So let's start out by admitting the error; the original statement was wrong. Then we will progress to discussing details.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/28/06 09:12 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/28/06 09:18 PM

TE: I don't know why you're bringing this up. I wasn't discussing SDA baptismal candidates. This whole discussion I have not been discussing them.

MM: Let me know when you're ready to discuss it. Thank you.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/28/06 11:44 PM

TV: The one doesnt contradict the other once we realise that it is not you, me or Billy Graham that does the heart work. We can probably safely assume that the Holy Spirit has been at work on the individuals for a long, long time, that they are just lacking once piece of the puzzle, knowledge of Jesus and when they learn that from pastor Grahams preaching, they are ready for baptism.

MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

-I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think. I started with the unseen agency just like Ellen did, and while she speaks about a person who is drawn to Christ from within a church or through a church, my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon. Her example conserns the kind of people she was likely to meet in America and Australia and Europe 200 years ago. Not so today. A person who would fit the description made today either is a christian, on the road of becoming a christian or a former christian. The majority of the population, at least in Europe, is neither of the above and doesnt fit into Ellens description at all.

DA 172
By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

..................

TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

We must, each for himself, choose Christ, because He has first chosen us. This union with Christ is to be formed by those who are naturally at enmity with Him. It is a relation of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud heart.

This is close work, and many who profess to be followers of Christ know nothing of it. They nominally accept the Saviour, but not as the sole ruler of their hearts.

Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back.

Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.

As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers.

After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ.

-Most of the above I agree with. With the addition that it is not for you or me to prune this wine(Jesus) that we are grafted into. It is not for us to say, he is truly converted, she is not truly converted, he is not truly converted, she is..... In the bible, we can find characteristics that identify true converted christians, but these are not of the kind which help us identify others as converted or not. They are of the kind which are only good for self evaluation. How can we judge if another is charitable, patient or the level of Godliness of another? Can we in another understand the level of love, peace, longsuffering, faith or meekness? These are the signs of a converted heart, these rather than outward acts of doing this or doing that.

And no, we have assurance that satan cannot separate a single soul from Gods embrace. Not even one.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/29/06 08:19 AM

Jesus said, "My burden is easy, my burden is light." We do a misservice to God's character if we make things appear otherwise. It's much easier to choose Christ than to choose against Him. Here's something from the Spirit of Prophecy:

Quote:

Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves. It is true that Satan's path is made to appear attractive, but it is all a deception; in the way of evil there are bitter remorse and cankering care. We may think it pleasant to follow pride and worldly ambition, but the end is pain and sorrow. Selfish plans may present flattering promises and hold out the hope of enjoyment, but we shall find that our happiness is poisoned and our life embittered by hopes that center in self. In the downward road the gateway may be bright with flowers, but thorns are in the path. The light of hope which shines from its entrance fades into the darkness of despair, and the soul who follows that path descends into the shadows of unending night.

"The way of transgressors is hard," but wisdom's "ways are ways of pleasantness and all her paths are peace." Proverbs 13:15; 3:17. (MB 139; emphasis mine)

I love this quote! Notice particularly the emphasized part, that the love of God makes it difficult for the headless and headstrong to destroy themselves. As one who is by nature heedless and headstrong, I am so thankful for this!

We should always remember that the gospel is good news!

From the same book, we read that God has made provision whereby He will make all like Jesus (which is how EGW defines perfection), and that He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will.

It is by love that God attracts us to His service. To know God is to love Him. When we know the love of God, then He can win our hearts. Winning our hearts is His key to success. Being free moral agents, it is of course true that we must choose to give Him our hearts (even this we can't do without His help), but once He has our heart, then the rest will follow.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." The kingdom of God is within us. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. We need to be changed from within.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/29/06 11:30 PM

MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

TV: I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think.

MM: And yet you go on to explain in detail why and how your description and her description are so different?

TV: … my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon.

MM: And you think this person could acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour, experience the miracle of rebirth, and get baptized – all this after hearing one sermon preached by someone like Billy Graham?

………………..

TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

TV: Most of the above I agree with.

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 12:29 AM

TE: We do a misservice to God's character if we make things appear otherwise. It's much easier to choose Christ than to choose against Him.

MM: I disagree. And the following testimonies confirm it. They teach that it is not easy to be saved, that it is hard to fight the good fight of faith.

Quote:

COL 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. {COL 331.1}

MAR 47
It is no easy matter to gain the priceless treasure of eternal life. {Mar 47.3}

UL 141
God asks us to sink self in Christ. For the natural man this is not easy. {UL 141.5}

MYP 60
And if they see and try to resist the powers of darkness and to free themselves from Satan's snare, it is not an easy matter. {MYP 60.1}

OHC 11
It would be an easy matter to let go the reins of self-control, and plunge over the precipice to sure destruction. {OHC 11.3}

1SM 131
It is an easy matter to idle away, talk and play away, the Holy Spirit's influence. {1SM 131.2}

3SM 289
But it is not an easy matter to overcome hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {3SM 289.3}

4T 32
It is not an easy matter to overcome an established taste for narcotics and stimulants. {4T 32.2}

4T 98
You will now find it not an easy matter to correct the impressions that have been made. {4T 98.1}

6T 38
True, it is not an easy matter to make the required change from the first to the seventh day. {6T 38.2}

VSS 261
[It] is hard to change wrong habits for right ones. {VSS 261.3}

NL 4
[Compilers comments] The way to eternal life is not easy. After all, it is called “strait” in the Bible. {NL 4.1}

FW 48
We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. {FW 48.1}

HP 30
Let self break in pieces before God. It is hard to do this; but we are warned to fall upon the Rock and be broken, else it will fall upon us, and grind us to powder. {HP 30.2}

MB 10
The trials of life are God's workmen, to remove the impurities and roughness from our character. Their hewing, squaring, and chiseling, their burnishing and polishing, is a painful process; it is hard to be pressed down to the grinding wheel. {MB 10.3}

AA 560
Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. {AA 560.3}

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 12:48 AM

[quote=Mountain Man]MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

TV: I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think.

MM: And yet you go on to explain in detail why and how your description and her description are so different?

-Well, what I mean is probably that during the same sircumstances, there would not have been any significant differences.

TV: … my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon.

MM: And you think this person could acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour, experience the miracle of rebirth, and get baptized – all this after hearing one sermon preached by someone like Billy Graham?

-Billy Grahams crusades usually are longer than one sermon. Doesnt he preach something like 3 sermons a day for a week or even two during these events? But yes, I do believe a person can acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour from taking part in such an event. The reason for this is that I see this as the first step on a long journey with God, rather than the end when one has straightened out all the questionmarks and purged all the sins.
………………..

TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

TV: Most of the above I agree with.

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

-You didnt comment on what I wrote. After you have done so, we can return to this question.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 08:12 AM

MM, she wrote, "God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves." This is very clear. It's hard to be lost!

She wrote, "(D)o not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way."

What I wrote is that it's easier to choose for Christ than against Him. I'm sorry you do not seem to understand and appreciate this truth. I should think you would, as anyone who has experience trying both ways should. At any rate, the statements you provided do not disagree with the statements I provided (which they shouldn't, being from the same author). Rather, they simply say (the ones you provided) that perfection of character is not easy. However, in the other statements I provided she did not say that it was easy to follow Christ, but easier than the alternative, so she didn't contradict herself.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 08:16 AM

MM, a point that seems to be eluding you regarding the Billy Graham sermons is that these are not the first time God is working with the individual. This is the point of the EGW quote you cited.

Quote:

In this statement the "word from the living preacher" is the sermon from the Billy Graham crusade. "Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus." This is the Holy Spirit working through the word of the living preacher, making the appeal.

I have no idea why you would leap to the conclusion that the Billy Graham crusade would be the first thing God was doint to reach the converted soul. All along God has been doing the things outlined in the DA quote.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 07:59 PM

TV: But yes, I do believe a person can acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour from taking part in such an event. The reason for this is that I see this as the first step on a long journey with God, rather than the end when one has straightened out all the questionmarks and purged all the sins.

MM: Thank you for clarifying what you believe. It seems to me that most people believe confessing and forsaking our cultivated sinful habits is the work of lifetime, that is, it takes a lifetime to discover and overcome the sinful habits and practices we cultivate or commit regularly. In the meantime, before we realize it, we are supposedly ignorant of our faults and imperfections; we go on from day to day offending people around us without realizing we are being unchristlike. I totally disagree with this version of rebirth.

……………………………

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

TV: You didnt comment on what I wrote. After you have done so, we can return to this question.

Quote:

Most of the above I agree with. With the addition that it is not for you or me to prune this wine(Jesus) that we are grafted into. It is not for us to say, he is truly converted, she is not truly converted, he is not truly converted, she is..... In the bible, we can find characteristics that identify true converted christians, but these are not of the kind which help us identify others as converted or not. They are of the kind which are only good for self evaluation. How can we judge if another is charitable, patient or the level of Godliness of another? Can we in another understand the level of love, peace, longsuffering, faith or meekness? These are the signs of a converted heart, these rather than outward acts of doing this or doing that. And no, we have assurance that satan cannot separate a single soul from Gods embrace. Not even one.

MM: We can discern the fruits of the Spirit in Christians or the lack thereof. But we are not supposed to judge their motives, that is, we cannot discern why they do the things they do or don’t do. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Paul put it this way:

1 Corinthians
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Thessalonians
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

And Jesus taught us how to deal with open sinners. He put it this way:

Matthew
18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

So, while we are not to judge motives, we can and must be our brother’s keeper. If we see a brother or sister walking in darkness and sin, it is our solemn duty to warn them off Satan’s enchanted ground, to encourage them to walk in light, even as Jesus is in the light. And if they refuse to heed counsel, then we are counseled to keep no company with them.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/30/06 08:11 PM

Tom, if being saved is easier than being lost is true why, then, is the majority lost?

Also, conversion and rebirth is the result of a long, patient, protracted process. There is nothing "sudden" about it. We both agree that no one who is completely ignorant of Jesus can complete or finish the process of conversion after hearing only one sermon.

Where we disagree, apparently, is whether or not a person can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion without first confessing and forsaking their sinful habits and practices.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/31/06 07:13 AM

Tom, if being saved is easier than being lost is true why, then, is the majority lost?

The EGW quote addresses this. People don't always do what's easier.

Also, conversion and rebirth is the result of a long, patient, protracted process. There is nothing "sudden" about it. We both agree that no one who is completely ignorant of Jesus can complete or finish the process of conversion after hearing only one sermon.

This was never under discussion.

Where we disagree, apparently, is whether or not a person can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion without first confessing and forsaking their sinful habits and practices.

No, that's not it. First of all, you disagree, apparently, that a person can be converted at a Billy Graham crusade. Why you would think that, I have no idea.

Secondly you stated that *every* sinful habit cultivated from birth must be revealed and confessed, which is false. *That's* the area of disagreement.

You don't even agree with this yourself, because you speak of God's "winking" at certain sinful habits.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/31/06 06:49 PM

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 12/31/06 11:05 PM

MM: Also, conversion and rebirth is the result of a long, patient, protracted process. There is nothing "sudden" about it. We both agree that no one who is completely ignorant of Jesus can complete or finish the process of conversion after hearing only one sermon.

TE: This was never under discussion.

MM: It matters to me. So, please, tell me, do we agree on this point?

The quote from DA mentions that conversion can appear to be sudden, but in reality God has been at work for a long time.

………………..

MM: Where we disagree, apparently, is whether or not a person can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion without first confessing and forsaking their sinful habits and practices.

TE: No, that's not it. First of all, you disagree, apparently, that a person can be converted at a Billy Graham crusade. Why you would think that, I have no idea.

MM: On the contrary. I do believe it is possible to experience rebirth during a Billy Graham weekend series or sermons.

Well why didn't you just say that two weeks ago when this was mentioned? Why waste all this time giving the impression you didn't agree with something you did?

It’s just that I do not believe it can happen if it’s the first time a person has heard the gospel.

Why do you go off on tangents? If you look back at the Billy Graham statement, this was never under discussion. Why not just say you agree when you agree and leave it at that?

TE: Secondly you stated that *every* sinful habit cultivated from birth must be revealed and confessed, which is false. *That's* the area of disagreement. You don't even agree with this yourself, because you speak of God's "winking" at certain sinful habits.

MM: Please, Tom, please acknowledge the fact that I believe God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.

Please, Mike, please ancknolwedge the fact that your original statement was wrong.

The “rule” requires confessing and forsaking every sinful habit and practice before we can experience the miracle of rebirth. The “exceptions” to the rule may include God not revealing one or more sinful habits. Under normal circumstances, however, God does not bend the rule. I am not contradicting myself.

Yes you are. You first wrote that no one can be converted without God's revealing every sinful habit. Now you are saying that's not true. That's a contradiction.

You could have avoided the contradiction by not stating the original proposition as an absolute. But you didn't do this. You made your assertion as an absolute. So you should admit your error, and then we can go on from there.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/01/07 06:25 PM

No, Tom, it is not an "error" to state the "rule" as an absolute.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/01/07 09:51 PM

Why is "error" in quotes? Why is it so difficult for you to admit your errors?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/02/07 07:13 PM

Tom, if I were guilty of making a mistake I would not hesitate to admit it. But I was not in error when I posted the "rule" with absolute certainty. Nor was I in error when I posted the "exceptions" to the rule. Both stand with absolute certainty.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/02/07 07:58 PM

Quote:

Getting you to admit a mistake is like pulling teeth. In I think over three years, and hundreds of posts (thousands?) I can only think of twice when you have admitted a mistake, and you took back your admission both of these times.

I have pointed out many, many mistakes, and you have never, even once, admitted a mistake in a frank manner.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/03/07 06:35 PM

Why are you so fixated on pressuring me to admit what you perceive as a mistake? Point out a mistake and I’ll admit it. But I did not make a mistake when I posted an absolute rule without also including exceptions to the rule. God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them. That prerogative belongs to God alone.

Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake? Please explain your answer. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/03/07 07:35 PM

I've been "fixated" on it because it strikes me as such curious behavior. Many people freely admit mistakes, but you go to great measures to avoid such, even to the extent of suggesting that words do not mean what they normally mean.

This strikes me as odd. Why is it so important not to be wrong? Wouldn't it be better to admit a mistake, learn from it, and move on?

I don't see how you can rationally argue that the statement that before a person can be saved, they need to have revealed to them every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and confess them, when this statement simply isn't true. You've already admitted it's not true in regards to those who smoke, drink, and commit polygamy (at least, in certain circumstances, which you haven't defined yet). Since the principle doesn't apply to smoking, drinking, and polygamy, there are no doubt analagous areas where they also do not apply.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/04/07 01:09 AM

Maybe it is as simple as this: Mike says that born again people have come beyond sin and having a perfect understanding of the vital doctrines. Thus, if he admits to being in error, he would to himself in doing that say that he is not born again. Could this be true?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/04/07 01:34 AM

Yes, Thomas, I was wondering if something along those lines might be the case. It's hard to express in words; you did a nice job.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/04/07 01:53 AM

Maybe it is that perfection of character in MM's eyes has to do with rules, and not with faith?

Quote:

God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/04/07 02:38 AM

This is an interesting statement:

Quote:

God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

I wonder if this is commonly believed.

I would say the "rules" are descriptive, rather than proscriptive; that is, the describe what God is like, rather than being a list of things we're not supposed to do.

Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 12:51 AM

TE: Since the principle doesn't apply to smoking, drinking, and polygamy, there are no doubt analagous areas where they also do not apply.

MM: I disagree. The rule applies with equal force to all sinful habits and practices. But God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.

………………………

MM: God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

TE: Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 12:56 AM

Thomas, I do not believe born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Do you believe I believe it? Or, do you think I believe the hideous thing you suggested?

Do you agree with the following inspired insights? If so, then pleaase explain what it means to you. Thank you.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 01:10 AM

JB: Maybe it is that perfection of character in MM's eyes has to do with rules, and not with faith?

MM: Are you suggesting we separate law and works? If so, then please explain how it is done. Thank you.

FW 96, 97
The doctrine of sanctification advocated by many is full of deception, because it is flattering to the natural heart; but the kindest thing that can be preached to the sinner is the truth of the binding claims of the law of God. Faith and works must go hand in hand; for faith without works is dead, being alone. {FW 96.3}

4T 494
Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. {4T 294.2}

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Since what this was speculating on was Toms perception of you being incapable of conceeding when caught being in error, the important point must really be the one about "having perfect understanding of vital doctrines". Mike, can you be wrong and would you confess being wrong if you found yourself being wrong? Would having a false understanding about a doctrine, in your thinking, negate your salvation? Lets say you are finally overwhelmingly convicted that God in creating beings and giving them a free will in this act ceded some of his sovereignity and therefore has surrendered some things outside of His controll, ponder if this would happen, would such a change in any way affect your relation to the salvation offered by Jesus?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 05:59 AM

Quote:

No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.

The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.

The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 07:19 PM

Thomas, I do not believe born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Do you believe I believe it? Or, do you think I believe the hideous thing you suggested?

Please answer this question. It is important to me. Thank you.

..................

1. Mike, can you be wrong and would you confess being wrong if you found yourself being wrong?

MM: Yes.

2. Would having a false understanding about a doctrine, in your thinking, negate your salvation?

MM: No.

3. Lets say you are finally overwhelmingly convicted that God in creating beings and giving them a free will in this act ceded some of his sovereignity and therefore has surrendered some things outside of His controll, ponder if this would happen, would such a change in any way affect your relation to the salvation offered by Jesus?

MM: Probably not. I would, by faith and the grace of God, thank Him and praise Him "for" all things and "in" all things. I may not be able to explain why God commands or permits this and that thing to happen, but I believe with all of my heart, mind, and soul that He will explain it to me in heaven, and that it will make perfect sense to me.

Ephesians
5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians
5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 07:27 PM

JB: No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.

MM: And I believe a righteous character is the result of obeying the law.

JB: The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.

MM: and I believe the law is the standard by which a righteous character is judged.

JB: The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.

MM: It is not a character defect for God to bend the rules. There is nothing contradictory about it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 07:44 PM

Quote:

The rule that you say applies with equal force for to all sinful habits is that they must be revealed and confessed. If your assertion that this rule applies with equal force to every sinful habit, this means is that the exception applies to every sinful habit. Otherwise some sinful habits are treated differently than others, which would mean that the rule does not apply with equal force.

Or to put it another way, if some sinful habits can be exempted, but others cannot be, then there is a difference in the way sinful habits are treated. Some are exempted, from time to time, from your rule, and others aren't.

So I suppose for clarification I should ask, do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 07:50 PM

MM: God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

TE: Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

I don't know what this is referring to.

The only rule to being saved is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." God doesn't bend this rule because it isn't an arbitrary rule which could be bent. It's a description of the process by which God heals (saves) sinners.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/05/07 07:56 PM

Quote:

What were you thinking when you read what JB wrote here? I can't understand what would prompt you to ask, based on what JB wrote, if he was suggesting that law and works be separated.

It's clear to me that he was "suggesting" exactly what he asked, which is that there is an appearance that you perceive perfection of character as having to do with rules, as opposed to having to do with faith.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 02:34 AM

JB: No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.
MM: And I believe a righteous character is the result of obeying the law.
Righteousness by rules!? Really, by now there should be a clarity that righteousness comes not by obeying rules, but righteousness comes by faith.

JB: The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.
MM: and I believe the law is the standard by which a righteous character is judged.
But it is not only that you wish to judge whether one is righteous by the law (rules) but you also assert above that one achieves perfection of righteousness by obeying rules. Now he who judges is not a doer of the law, how then shall he achieve the perfection of character; and if not righteous how shall he judge by the law.

JB: The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.
MM: It is not a character defect for God to bend the rules. There is nothing contradictory about it.
Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!

Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 04:40 AM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 05:12 AM

JB: Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!

MM: We’re talking about two different “rules”. Character perfection is the fruit of obeying the law (rules) of God. The “rules” God bends to save people is not the law.

6BC 1073
The law of Jehovah is the tree, the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears (Letter 119, 1897). {6BC 1073.6}

3T 371
The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}

Quote:

We do not earn salvation by our obedience, for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" (chap. 3:5, 6). Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (verse 7). Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {RC 274.3}

Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight. God help us to render to Him all His law requires. We cannot do this without that faith that brings Christ's righteousness into daily practice. {2SM 380.4}

When we bring our lives to complete obedience to the law of God, regarding God as our supreme Guide, and clinging to Christ as our hope of righteousness, God will work in our behalf. This is a righteousness of faith, a righteousness hidden in a mystery of which the worldling knows nothing, and which he cannot understand. Sophistry and strife follow in the train of the serpent; but the commandments of God diligently studied and practiced, open to us communication with heaven, and distinguish for us the true from the false. This obedience works out for us the divine will, bringing into our lives the righteousness and perfection that was seen in the life of Christ (MS 43, 1907). {1BC 1118.4}

The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden-- perfect obedience to His law. In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace ith God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

(1 John 2:4.) Faith Manifested by Works of Obedience.-- God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden, perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law, but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts. {6BC 1073.1}

The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do." While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And the apostle John declares, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" (RH Oct. 5, 1886). {6BC 1073.2}

JB: Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature ...

MM: I do not divorce the law from the gospel. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom. 8:4) “The enemy has ever labored to disconnect the law and the gospel. They go hand in hand.” (6BC 1073)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 08:38 AM

MM, you're not dealing with the issues JB is raising. In particular, his final paragraph would be an especially good one to consider:

Quote:

Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.

Also this point is very well taken:

Quote:

Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!

This points out the inconsistency of what you've been presenting. If righteousness were by keeping rules, then the most righteous one would be the one who best kept the rules. Since God is perfectly righteous, it would follow that He would that One. He would not bend the rules.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 08:50 AM

TE: … do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?

MM: There are certain sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit must reveal, that is, He cannot allow the sinner to go on in ignorance committing them. Romans 2 explains it.

This contradicts your idea that the "rule" applies to all sinful habits with equal force.

……………………..

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

TE: I don't know what this is referring to.

MM: Thief on the cross was not baptized and yet he will be in heaven. And certain Gentiles will be saved who never called on the name of Jesus.

I think you're whole way of conceptualizing what's happening in the process of salvation is off if you think that God was bending a rule here to save sinners. Salvation is by faith. The thief had faith. The Gentiles who believed in Christ without knowing His name had faith. No rules were broken.

If salvation were something arbitrary, then God could break arbitrary rules in order to save. But salvation is not an arbitrary thing. It's not something God gives to someone in return for obeying some rule. It's a process which happens when one responds to the light and truth which God gives to all.

Jesus Christ is the true light who lightens everyone who comes in the world. All who love that Light will be saved. That's the only way of salvation for any creature in the universe.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 04:06 PM

MM: We’re talking about two different “rules”. Character perfection is the fruit of obeying the law (rules) of God. The “rules” God bends to save people is not the law.
Am I correct in understanding you to be saying that character perfection comes by obeying the Ten Commandments; and that the rules which God bends to save people are not those?

JB: Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.
MM: I do not divorce the law from the gospel. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Thank you for the quote MM. Please note that the scripture you quoted does not say that righteousness or perfection of character comes by obeying the Law.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 08:01 PM

TE: This contradicts your idea that the "rule" applies to all sinful habits with equal force.

MM: How so? If it didn’t, there would be no reason to make exceptions to the rule.

……………………

MM: Thief on the cross was not baptized and yet he will be in heaven. And certain Gentiles will be saved who never called on the name of Jesus.

TE: The thief had faith. The Gentiles who believed in Christ without knowing His name had faith. No rules were broken.

MM: The rule God bent to save the thief was the one requiring baptism.

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

MM: And the rules God bends to save the Gentiles Paul referred to in Romans 2:13-15 are the ones requiring baptism and accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour.

Acts
4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

MM: Not all, however, are saved in spite of their ignorance of Jesus. There are certain criteria that must be met.

EW 276
I saw that the slave master will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/06/07 08:08 PM

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: John Boskovic

MM: I do not divorce the law from the gospel. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Thank you for the quote MM. Please note that the scripture you quoted does not say that righteousness or perfection of character comes by obeying the Law.

What can we learn about this topic from the verses quoted below?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 12:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

It seems possible that you believe this in the sence that a born again believer who once slipped into a known sin would seace to be a born again believer. This is just a guess for I have come more and more to understand that I cannot understand you. Where you are comming from is a direction so different than the one I (and I also believe Tom and John) am comming from that I am not even sure if the same words carry the same meaning with you. It is, however, possible, yea even propable that this in the long run will not matter. Where one is comming from is of no consequence as long as where one is headed is towards the heavenly courts of God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 06:21 AM

TE: … do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?

MM: There are certain sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit must reveal, that is, He cannot allow the sinner to go on in ignorance committing them. Romans 2 explains it.

This contradicts your idea that the "rule" applies to all sinful habits with equal force.

MM: How so? If it didn’t, there would be no reason to make exceptions to the rule.

The rule is that all sinful habits must be revealed and confessed. That's the first thing you said. Then you said, "There are certain sinful habits and practices which the Holy Spirit must reveal." You really don't see the contradiction here?

MM: Thief on the cross was not baptized and yet he will be in heaven. And certain Gentiles will be saved who never called on the name of Jesus.

TE: The thief had faith. The Gentiles who believed in Christ without knowing His name had faith. No rules were broken.

MM: The rule God bent to save the thief was the one requiring baptism.

Justification is by faith, not by baptism.

Quote:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:26)

No rule was broken. The rule is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." (Acts 16:31) Baptism is an evidence of salvation, a public confession of the work of transformation which God has accomplished. It is not a means to salvation, any more than circumcision was.

In fact, the exact same argument Paul used regarding circumcision may be used regarding baptism. Paul asked if Abraham was circumcized before or after he was justified. He answers his own question that it was after, arguing that circumcision was a sign of the righteousness Abraham already had by faith in Christ. Similarly baptism is a sign of the righteousness that the believer has already by faith in Christ.

Salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Quote:

There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. {FW 18.1}

MM: Not all, however, are saved in spite of their ignorance of Jesus. There are certain criteria that must be met.

Of course. The criteria is faith. Justification is by faith.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 07:16 PM

TV: It seems possible that you believe this in the sence that a born again believer who once slipped into a known sin would seace to be a born again believer.

MM: Thank you for addressing this question. I am sorry my view seems so foreign to you.

First of all, please understand that I do not believe born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin.

Neither do I believe it is evidence they were never truly born again if they should choose to commit a known sin, or an unknown sin, for that matter.

Nor do I believe they cease being a born again believer if they do choose to sin.

I do believe, however, that a born again believer will not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin while they are abiding in Jesus, while they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God . . . We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 3:6, 9 and 5:18)

Again, this does not mean they are incapable of sinning. What it does mean is that so long as they are abiding in Jesus they will not choose to sin. To commit a known sin, therefore, they must first stop abiding in Jesus. Once they disconnect from the only Source that can empower them to resist sinning, the only thing they can do is sin.

However, God does not abandon them if, in a moment of weakness, they commit a known sin. Instead, the Holy Spirit immediately begins pleading with them to accept the free gift of repentance, which, when received into the heart, empowers them to confess and forsake their sin. It also gives God the legal right to pardon them, and to restore them back to the mind of the new man. Once cleansed and restored, they resume abiding in Jesus, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1, 2)

TV: What can we learn about this topic from the verses quoted below?

MM: Romans 7 does not teach us that we cannot, in spite of everything God is doing to empower us to recognize and resist sin, prevent ourselves from committing known sins. Instead, Paul wrote, "I allow not" (verse 15).

He goes on to explain it is his sinful "flesh" nature that wants him to "do" things that, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, he does not want to do. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me . . . that is, in my flesh" (verses 17 and 18).

The only thing sinful flesh can "do" is tempt us to sin. It tempts us to sin by generating unholy thoughts and feelings, but it cannot actually commit a sin. "[The] flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." (AH 127) The nature of our warfare is the warfare of our nature.

Sister White describes it this way:

SC 43
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

3T 84
You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. (3T 84)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 07:35 PM

TE: This contradicts your idea that the "rule" applies to all sinful habits with equal force.

MM: How so? If it didn’t, there would be no reason to make exceptions to the rule.

TE: The rule is that all sinful habits must be revealed and confessed. That's the first thing you said. Then you said, "There are certain sinful habits and practices which the Holy Spirit must reveal." You really don't see the contradiction here?

MM: No, there is no contradiction. When God make exceptions to the rule it does not mean the rule does not apply with equal force. The blood of Jesus covers sins of ignorance. That’s why and how God can make exceptions to the rule.

…………………………..

MM: The rule God bent to save the thief was the one requiring baptism.

TE: Justification is by faith, not by baptism.

MM: If baptism is not a rule, why, then, is it required? Why is it one of the requisites steps, without which no one can be saved?

…………………………..

MM: Not all, however, are saved in spite of their ignorance of Jesus. There are certain criteria that must be met.

TE: Of course. The criteria is faith. Justification is by faith.

MM: In what way do the Gentiles Paul referred to and the slaves Sister White referred to differ? In light of the following insight, how did the Gentiles experience justification by faith? And, why didn’t the slaves experience it?

FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 07:42 PM

I thought (according to your view) it was the death of Christ which gave God the legal right to pardon us. Now you are saying that it is repentance which is necessary for God to have the legal right to pardon us?

Why does God not already have the legal right to pardon us, by virtue of being God? How did He lose this right? To whom did He lose it? How does our repenting allow Him to get it back?

Another thing I'm not understanding is the statement that once a born again believer commits a known sin, he can do nothing but sin until he repents. How are you defining sin? You seem to view people as either always sinning or never sinning.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/07/07 07:49 PM

JB: Am I correct in understanding you to be saying that character perfection comes by obeying the Ten Commandments; and that the rules which God bends to save people are not those?
MM: Yes. Do you agree that the SOP quotes I posted confirm it?

No, I do not agree that the writer of the quotes you posted had even the slightest intention to teach what you are saying. You are distinctly missing the mark entirely.

JB: Please note that the scripture you quoted does not say that righteousness or perfection of character comes by obeying the Law.
MM: I believe it is implied. Neither imputed nor imparted righteousness happens without us obeying the law. That is, Jesus will not impute His righteousness to cover our past sins if we are not obeying the law.

Nothing like it is implied, but the opposite is spelled out. The means by which we attain to righteousness and perfection of character is not by obeying the law, but by living by the spirit; by abiding in Christ: as you amply quoted,
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God . . . We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 3:6, 9 and 5:18)

Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/08/07 05:05 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/08/07 05:08 PM

JB: Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.

MM: Where does that leave you and me regarding this study?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/08/07 07:40 PM

TE: I thought (according to your view) it was the death of Christ which gave God the legal right to pardon us. Now you are saying that it is repentance which is necessary for God to have the legal right to pardon us?

MM: Please recall that I believe the death of Jesus gave God the legal right to offer repentance and pardon.

I don't recall you saying that the death of Jesus gave God the legal right to offer repentance. I think that's new.

I do recall you're saying the death of Jesus gave God the legal right to pardon. If this is the case, then how can repentance give God the legal right to do something He had already obtained by the death of Jesus?

TE: Why does God not already have the legal right to pardon us, by virtue of being God? How did He lose this right? To whom did He lose it? How does our repenting allow Him to get it back?

MM: Law and justice determines what God can and cannot do.

Isn't this backwards? Isn't it the character of God, what He does and does not do, which determines law and justice?

Also, You didn't answer my questions. Justice isn't an actual person, so the question still remains as to from whom God obtained the legal right to pardon, and how He could have lost such a right in the first place.

TE: Another thing I'm not understanding is the statement that once a born again believer commits a known sin, he can do nothing but sin until he repents. How are you defining sin? You seem to view people as either always sinning or never sinning.

MM: We are lost until we choose to repent.

This is a different issue. If one is in rebellion against God, he would hardly be happy to spend eternity with God in heaven. As the SOP points out, it is not the occasional good deed or misdeed which determines the character, but the trend of the life. This statement makes clear that a lost person is capable of the occasional good deed, and the saved person is capable of the occasional misdeed.

The reason repentance is necessary is that the broken relationship must be repared. But there is nothing in this obvious necessity which implies that a born again person, who commits a known sin for whatever reason, can do nothing but sin from that point on.

If we refuse to repent we commit an unpardonable sin. We either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin. There is no neutrality. Sin is the transgression of the law.

Given that sin is transgression of the law, if the born again person in your hypothetical example commits a sin, why would that make it so he could no longer keep the law? I can see some sense in what you're saying if you conceptionalize things in terms of a relationship which needs to be healed, but if it has to do with rules which are broken, I don't see how what you appear to be saying makes sense.

Romans
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

A person doesn't all of a sudden lose the Spirit of God because he commits a known sin. God is not that easy to get rid of.

Let's give a specific example. Let's say a (born again) person is moving some furniture, loses his grip on a piano, says a bad word, and before he gets a chance to repent, the piano falls on him and kills him. Is he lost?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/09/07 06:55 PM

Quote:

COL 316
The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. {COL 316.2}

MAR 82
One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. {Mar 82.4}

CC 114
One cherished sin will, little by little, debase the character, bringing all its nobler powers into subjection to the evil desire. {CC 114.5}

4T 453
Selfishness, envy, pride, jealousy, idleness, or any other sin which is cherished in the heart, will exclude one from the blessedness of heaven. "To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are." {4T 453.1}

1SM 396
No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty. {1SM 396.2}

AA 312
Every habit or practice that leads into sin and brings dishonor upon Christ must be put away, whatever the sacrifice. The blessing of heaven cannot attend any man in violating the eternal principles of right. One sin cherished is sufficient to work degradation of character and to mislead others. {AA 312.1}

TE: Given that sin is transgression of the law, if the born again person in your hypothetical example commits a sin, why would that make it so he could no longer keep the law?

MM: If he refuses to confess and forsake that one sin, he is in a lost state, he is no longer abiding in Jesus, thus, he is no longer partaking of the divine nature, the only thing that can empower him to “go, and sin no more.”

TE: A person doesn't all of a sudden lose the Spirit of God because he commits a known sin. God is not that easy to get rid of.

MM: The reason he commits a known is because he has lost the Spirit of God. We do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

TE: Let's say a (born again) person is moving some furniture, loses his grip on a piano, says a bad word, and before he gets a chance to repent, the piano falls on him and kills him. Is he lost?

MM: Do you know of such an incident? Did you watch someone die suddenly before they had time to repent of cursing? Was it their habit to repent under such circumstances? That is, did they always repent of unintentional sins? If so, then I suspect the following insight would apply to them in judgment. It is character that decides our destiny during judgment.

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

RC 124
Let us never forget that by the characters which we are forming day by day, we are deciding our future destiny. Those whose hearts are filled with the love of Christ will find in the heavenly courts a glad reception. {RC 124.7}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/09/07 08:00 PM

TE: I do recall you're saying the death of Jesus gave God the legal right to pardon. If this is the case, then how can repentance give God the legal right to do something He had already obtained by the death of Jesus?

MM: The death of Jesus does not give God the legal right to pardon someone who refuses to repent.

You're using the phrase "legal right to pardon" in a strange way. Let me give you an example. The Governor of a state has the legal right to pardon any state criminal. He is conferred that right by the constitution. He can legally pardon whoever he wants; guilty, unrepentant people; whatever. Now if God somehow lost the right to legally pardon people by virture of being God, and regained it when Christ died, then He had it. He has the legal right to pardon whomever He wishes.

I think what you really mean to say is that it would be out of harmony with the principles of His character, which are the principles espoused by the law, to forgive someone who was unrepentant.

TE: Isn't it the character of God, what He does and does not do, which determines law and justice?

MM: Law and justice is based on the character of God, but the kingdom of God is under obligation to abide by the law of God.

Is God under obligation to something or someone outside of Himself?

TE: Justice isn't an actual person, so the question still remains as to from whom God obtained the legal right to pardon, and how He could have lost such a right in the first place.

MM: Law and justice is the personification of God’s character.

That's correct! That's why the phrase "the law demands punishment" means "God demands punishment."

It requires God to punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin.

This means "God requires that He punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin." Aside from being obviously not true, since God has never actually done this even once, why do you think this is the case?

It cannot grant mercy or pardon.

This means "God cannot grant mercy or pardon," given that what you say is true, which is that law and justice are the personification of God's character. I suppose what you really mean is that law and justice are the personification of a portion of God's character, and that part of His character doesn't allow Him to grant mercy or pardon.

In this way law and justice does not reflect the character of God.

I suppose here you mean fully reflect His character. Obviously it reflects His character, since you earlier wrote that it is the personification of His character. It could hardly be the personification of His character if it didn't reflect it.

He lost the legal right to pardon sinners the moment they sinned.

This doesn't make sense. It would be like saying that the Governor of a state loses the power to pardon a criminal the moment the crime takes place. God, like any of the rest of us, has the right to forgive anyone who sins against Him. We are free to forgive, or not, just like God is.

God earned the right to offer sinners pardon when Jesus became sin for us and died as our substitute.

God did not lose the right to offer sinners pardon when sin was committed. Why do you even think it makes sense to say this? How could God lose any right that He has to do anything? The rights God has are inalienable.

Law and justice is satisfied because sin and sinners were punished and destroyed in the person of Jesus Christ.

There's some truth to this idea, (although it's not well stated; particularly the part that sinners are destroyed in the person in Christ; that's not very clear), although I'm sure we'd understand the meaning quite differently.

TE: As the SOP points out, it is not the occasional good deed or misdeed which determines the character, but the trend of the life. This statement makes clear that a lost person is capable of the occasional good deed, and the saved person is capable of the occasional misdeed.

MM: When a lost person does a “good” deed it is as filthy rags in the eyes of God, and, as such, it does not count as a good deed. It is tainted with selfishness.

A person can choose to a good thing, although lost, such as give his life for another. Many have. What God is concerned with is not "counting" deeds, but with the person committing the deed.

TE: … there is nothing in this obvious necessity which implies that a born again person, who commits a known sin for whatever reason, can do nothing but sin from that point on.

MM: A backslider who refuses to repent is in a lost state, and in such a state all he can do is sin. People who refuse to confess and forsake even one sin are incapable of anything else but sin. They must repent, or else they cannot be like Jesus.

The quotes you provided are dealing with cherished sin. What I wrote was, "there is nothing in this obvious necessity which implies that a born again person, who commits a known sin for whatever reason, can do nothing but sin from that point on." You haven't considered what I wrote, but a subset, specifically cherished sin.

TE: Given that sin is transgression of the law, if the born again person in your hypothetical example commits a sin, why would that make it so he could no longer keep the law?

MM: If he refuses to confess and forsake that one sin, he is in a lost state, he is no longer abiding in Jesus, thus, he is no longer partaking of the divine nature, the only thing that can empower him to “go, and sin no more.”

It's not the occasional good deed or misdeed that determines the character. Committing one sin does not cause you to be lost. (Cherishing a sin is not merely committing a sin, but committing many sins). God might not even bring it to the believer's mind. Think of Luther as an example.

TE: A person doesn't all of a sudden lose the Spirit of God because he commits a known sin. God is not that easy to get rid of.

MM: The reason he commits a known is because he has lost the Spirit of God.

This is backwards. If a person doesn't commit a known sin, how could he lose the Spirit of God?

We do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

You must mean something different than what your saying. I'm guessing what you really mean to say is that one cannot continue to abide in Jesus while comitting sin. Your statement, as actually written, is clearly false, as it would imply that you lose free will when you abide in Jesus, no longer having the ability to sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

TE: Let's say a (born again) person is moving some furniture, loses his grip on a piano, says a bad word, and before he gets a chance to repent, the piano falls on him and kills him. Is he lost?

MM: Do you know of such an incident?

Why would this make a difference?

Did you watch someone die suddenly before they had time to repent of cursing? Was it their habit to repent under such circumstances? That is, did they always repent of unintentional sins?

What the point in asking these questions? What possible difference could my witnessing an incident make?

If so, then I suspect the following insight would apply to them in judgment. It is character that decides our destiny during judgment.

Good answer!

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

RC 124
Let us never forget that by the characters which we are forming day by day, we are deciding our future destiny. Those whose hearts are filled with the love of Christ will find in the heavenly courts a glad reception. {RC 124.7}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/09/07 10:01 PM

JB: Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.

MM: Where does that leave you and me regarding this study?

You might wish to consider the other parts of his post.

Posted By: Johann

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 01:43 AM

Here is the patience of the "saints"!

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 05:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

JB: Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.

MM: Where does that leave you and me regarding this study?

That depends on what your interest is.

After several years and your 7000+ posts; it is somewhat consistent that you are quick to speak and slow to hear. It would be nice from time to time to get a real connect so we can know that we are communicating. I think you commonly reply way too quickly and do not give it careful thought and consideration, to see if you are hearing what is being said.

Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 07:37 PM

TE: The Governor of a state has the legal right to pardon any state criminal. He is conferred that right by the constitution. He can legally pardon whoever he wants; guilty, unrepentant people; whatever.

MM: There is absolutely nothing “lawful” about it. Pardoning a guilty, unrepentant criminal is criminal.

………………………….

TE: I think what you really mean to say is that it would be out of harmony with the principles of His character, which are the principles espoused by the law, to forgive someone who was unrepentant.

MM: The law cannot pardon. It makes no provision for pardon. The law requires death for sin. It shows no mercy. Not even God can get around it. According to law and justice, sinners cannot be pardoned, they must die. “There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted.” (6BC 1070)

In this way, the law is not a transcript of God’s character. The law does not reflect the fact God is merciful and willing to pardon. If mercy was inherent in the law, then mercy would cease to be mercy. The fact the law is merciless, exacting penalty instead of pardon, means mercy is necessary to save us. God, not the law, is merciful. But mercy and pardon are unlawful unless the death penalty is exacted.

Justice demands death. God cannot ignore this requirement and pardon sinners just because He is merciful. Someone has to die for the sins we commit. There is no way around it. God cannot pardon sinners without a substitute. Jesus had to die because the law requires it. God must satisfy Justice, and Justice will not allow God to save sinners without the death of Jesus.

“[1] Christ on the cross not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law--for whom God pardons He first makes penitent -- [2] but Christ has satisfied Justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. His gushing blood, His broken body, satisfy the claims of the broken law, and thus He bridges the gulf which sin has made.” (1 SM 341)

……………………

TE: This means "God requires that He punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin." Aside from being obviously not true, since God has never actually done this even once, why do you think this is the case?

MM: The plan of salvation puts it on pause. Sinners will not pay for their sins until after the second resurrection.

…………………………………

TE: The quotes you provided are dealing with cherished sin. What I wrote was, "there is nothing in this obvious necessity which implies that a born again person, who commits a known sin for whatever reason, can do nothing but sin from that point on." You haven't considered what I wrote, but a subset, specifically cherished sin.

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins. Are you suggesting that born again believers do not cherish certain sins? Also, are you suggesting that believers who fall into sin, and who refuse to repent, can continue to live without sinning? The following quote teaches us that one sin, unrepented of, separates us from the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit all we can do is sin.

“Sanctification is a daily work. Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Whatever may be the ecstasies of religious feeling, Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor Him.” (LHU 144)

…………………………

TE: Committing one sin does not cause you to be lost.

MM: Adam and Eve committed one sin. It caused them to be lost.

………………………………………..

MM: The reason he commits a known is because he has lost the Spirit of God.

TE: This is backwards. If a person doesn't commit a known sin, how could he lose the Spirit of God?

MM: He can’t. Of course, we are talking about born again believers who are abiding in Jesus.

MM: We do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

TE: You must mean something different than what your saying. I'm guessing what you really mean to say is that one cannot continue to abide in Jesus while comitting sin. Your statement, as actually written, is clearly false, as it would imply that you lose free will when you abide in Jesus, no longer having the ability to sin.

MM: Yes, “one cannot continue to abide in Jesus while comitting sin” is true. It is also true they cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. That’s what the Bible says. No, it does not mean we lose the ability to choose to stop abiding in Jesus. We are always free to stop abiding in Jesus. But if we choose to stop abiding in Jesus we cannot stop sinning. Thus separated, we lose the ability to choose not to sin. To stop sinning we must first choose to abide in Jesus.

5T 515
But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {5T 515.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 07:42 PM

JB: Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.

MM: Where does that leave you and me regarding this study?

JB: That depends on what your interest is.

MM: I'm listening. Why is it an "empty cloud"?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 08:59 PM

First part. You're confusing terms here. Having a legal right to do something has nothing to do with whether or not the act the one with the legal right performs is lawful or not

Second part of what you wrote, it just looks like you're repeating the same things you've said many times before. I've addressed this many, many times already. I've quoted many times from Waggoner, Fifield and Ellen White on this, without your ever commenting on the quotes I provided, as far as I can remember. I'm not seeing the point of responding.

Third part:

Quote:

TE: This means "God requires that He punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin." Aside from being obviously not true, since God has never actually done this even once, why do you think this is the case?

MM: The plan of salvation puts it on pause. Sinners will not pay for their sins until after the second resurrection.

The devils weren't destroyed either, and there was no plan of salvation in place. No sinner has ever died the instant they sinned. This has never happened. It's odd to assert that God must do something He has never done.

Fourth part:

Quote:

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

Fifth part: Adam is not lost. (I'm not sure about Eve. Do we know for sure she'll be in heaven?) Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

Sixth part:

Quote:

MM: The reason he commits a known is because he has lost the Spirit of God.

TE: This is backwards. If a person doesn't commit a known sin, how could he lose the Spirit of God?

MM: He can’t. Of course, we are talking about born again believers who are abiding in Jesus.

If a born again person can't lose the Spirit of God without sinning, and can't sin without losing the Spirit of God, then no born again person can sin. But born again people have sinned, so this theory is false.

Final point. The "cannot sin" is present continuous. It means one cannot continue to sin, as several versions translate. It doesn't mean "commit a sin." John himself, earlier in the epistle, stated we are to go to Jesus Christ our advocate if we sin (he said, "if anyone sin") so he was certainly aware of the possibility of our sinning.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/10/07 11:27 PM

Quote:

MM: I'm listening. Why is it an "empty cloud"?

That's a nice expression, "empty cloud." If the theory had more merit to it, it could grow to the status of "cloud."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 02:26 AM

TE: I think what you really mean to say is that it would be out of harmony with the principles of His character, which are the principles espoused by the law, to forgive someone who was unrepentant.

MM: No. The law cannot pardon sinners; only God can. I this way, the law and God are unlike.

………………………….

TE: The devils weren't destroyed either, and there was no plan of salvation in place. No sinner has ever died the instant they sinned. This has never happened. It's odd to assert that God must do something He has never done.

MM: You are familiar with why Satan wasn’t destroyed the instant he sinned. Do you still agree with it?

………………………

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it. Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

……………………………

TE: If a born again person can't lose the Spirit of God without sinning, and can't sin without losing the Spirit of God, then no born again person can sin. But born again people have sinned, so this theory is false.

MM: They cannot sin until after they stop abiding in Jesus. Sinning is not what separates them. We are always free to stop abiding in Jesus. If we stop abiding in Jesus we lose the ability to choose not to sin.

……………………………..

TE: The "cannot sin" is present continuous. It means one cannot continue to sin, as several versions translate. It doesn't mean "commit a sin." John himself, earlier in the epistle, stated we are to go to Jesus Christ our advocate if we sin (he said, "if anyone sin") so he was certainly aware of the possibility of our sinning.

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

But if we examine the broader context, it becomes obvious that’s not what John had in mind. The following is my verse by verse commentary.

3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

NOTE: John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He doesn’t argue the difference is those who abide in Jesus will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning.

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NOTE: John compares them to Jesus, not to people who continue sinning even after they realize they are sinning.

3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

NOTE: John says Jesus came to make us like Him, not less like the devil. People who sin are like the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

NOTE: John explains that the reason they cannot sin while abiding in Jesus is because the seed of God remains in them. The seed of God is what makes it possible for them not to sin.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

NOTE: Again, John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He does not argue the difference has to do with what one or the other does after they realize they are sinning.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

NOTE: Again, John explains that the reason they do not sin is because the devil cannot touch them while they are abiding in Jesus. He doesn’t say the devil cannot continue touching them after they realize they are sinning.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 06:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

JB: Your concept about imputed and imparted righteousness has no basis in reality and is just an empty cloud.
MM: Where does that leave you and me regarding this study?
JB: That depends on what your interest is.
MM: I'm listening. Why is it an "empty cloud"?

“empty cloud” = no substance; or in other terms, a cloud that does not “deliver”.

The theoretical, legal concept of imputed righteousness is void of reality. Salvation is not a process of legislated righteousness, but rather the deliverance from legislated righteousness to the righteousness apart from the law.

The position that one can attain to righteousness much less perfection of character, by obeying rules (Ten Commandments) speaks of a real lack of experimental knowledge. This is not to say that anything is wrong with the law, but that it was never given for that purpose.

Have you ever tried to do this; to attain to righteousness by obeying the rules?

Does one attain to righteousness by “not killing”; not stealing; … not bowing down to idols; not using the Lord’s name in vain? Even if it were possible to not transgress in such a manner; is righteousness simply the absence of outward transgression? Even if one had never outwardly sinned, would that make him righteous?

What is righteousness?

Righteousness is made of such things of which there is no law or rules. What is that?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 07:20 AM

Quote:

You responded:

Quote:

MM: The plan of salvation puts it on pause. Sinners will not pay for their sins until after the second resurrection.

I pointed out that this statement is incorrect because the plan of salvation was not in place for the devils, and yet they didn't die. If the reason they didn't die was for any other reason other than the plan of salvation, then your statement is false (although I don't expect you to perceive this; nevertheless it is true)

………………………

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it.

Where do you get this from?

You've attempting to back up one statement that has no basis for being made with another. First of all, not every sin a sinner commits is cherished, not even close. I have doubts regarding your understanding of what "cherished sin" means, given that you would make such a statement. A cherished sin is something one knows to be wrong, yet knowing it to be wrong, chooses, in spite of this, to do it anyway. There's no way that more than a very small percentage of the sins unconverted people commit fall into this category. No way. Not even a decent percentage, let alone all. Think about it. What percentage of the sins unconverted people commit would fall into the category of something they know to be wrong, yet knowing it to be wrong, they choose to do anyway?

Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

That's true in an absolute sense. That doesn't mean that an unbelieve can make a right choice, and choose good instead of evil in certain circumstances. Have you ever seen "It's a Wonderful Life?" If so, think of the choices the Jimmy Stewart character made, sacrificing himself for the good of others. These weren't sins. Nothing in inspiration teaches this.

………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

Here's what I wrote:

Quote:

It's not the occasional good deed or misdeed that determines the character. Committing one sin does not cause you to be lost. (Cherishing a sin is not merely committing a sin, but committing many sins). God might not even bring it to the believer's mind. Think of Luther as an example.

You never did consider Luther. Luther was a beer-loving anti-semite, sinning until the day he died, yet not lost. My statement, as written, is correct. It is not the occasional misdeed that determines the character. (i.e. cause you to be lost). If what you are asserting were true (that a single sin causes you to be lost) then Ellen White's statement could not be true.

……………………………

TE: If a born again person can't lose the Spirit of God without sinning, and can't sin without losing the Spirit of God, then no born again person can sin. But born again people have sinned, so this theory is false.

MM: They cannot sin until after they stop abiding in Jesus. Sinning is not what separates them. We are always free to stop abiding in Jesus. If we stop abiding in Jesus we lose the ability to choose not to sin.

This is an interesting statement. Sinning does not separate us from Jesus.

……………………………..

TE: The "cannot sin" is present continuous. It means one cannot continue to sin, as several versions translate. It doesn't mean "commit a sin." John himself, earlier in the epistle, stated we are to go to Jesus Christ our advocate if we sin (he said, "if anyone sin") so he was certainly aware of the possibility of our sinning.

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

This is by no means true. Here's the NIV translation:

Quote:

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

According to you, this translation implies that born again believers will continue to sin, yet the verse says exactly the opposite! You couldn't get any more wrong than this.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 07:22 AM

Quote:

Very good!

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 10:47 AM

MM: No. The law cannot pardon sinners; only God can. I this way, the law and God are unlike.

-Which we can read about in Pauls letter to Rome for instance.
………………………….

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it. Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

-I am of the oppinion that at least as much sin is commited out of hate as is commited out of cherishing the sin. Such hate may very well include the sin itself but provides no power to resist it successfully. A cherished sin may transform over time and turn into a hated sin.
I also dont think it would be correct to say you cherish something you hate.
………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.
……………………………

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

But if we examine the broader context, it becomes obvious that’s not what John had in mind. The following is my verse by verse commentary.

-In my oppinion, broader context for Johns letter is the entire letter. And if you read all of it, it isnt quite as simple as when reading well choosen parts of it.

MM:
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

NOTE: John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He doesn’t argue the difference is those who abide in Jesus will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning.

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NOTE: John compares them to Jesus, not to people who continue sinning even after they realize they are sinning.

3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

NOTE: John says Jesus came to make us like Him, not less like the devil. People who sin are like the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

NOTE: John explains that the reason they cannot sin while abiding in Jesus is because the seed of God remains in them. The seed of God is what makes it possible for them not to sin.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

NOTE: Again, John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He does not argue the difference has to do with what one or the other does after they realize they are sinning.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

NOTE: Again, John explains that the reason they do not sin is because the devil cannot touch them while they are abiding in Jesus. He doesn’t say the devil cannot continue touching them after they realize they are sinning.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 06:51 PM

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.

You are suggesting that a person could say, "since I'm not lost by committing a single sin, I'll go ahead an committ this one sin" and use that an excuse? Well, this by itself would not cause harm, but repeating this argument again and again certainly would! (but then it wouldn't be a single sin).

The whole way of looking at things in terms of being lost because of committing a sin is wrong anyway. What causes one to be lost is to resist the Spirit of God who is constantly seeking to draw our attention to the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. Committing a sin, or sins, is simply evidence of the condition of the heart. It's the other side of the coin that good works reveal the condition of the heart, but do not make us right with God.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 07:49 PM

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.

You are suggesting that a person could say, "since I'm not lost by committing a single sin, I'll go ahead an committ this one sin" and use that an excuse? Well, this by itself would not cause harm, but repeating this argument again and again certainly would! (but then it wouldn't be a single sin).

The whole way of looking at things in terms of being lost because of committing a sin is wrong anyway. What causes one to be lost is to resist the Spirit of God who is constantly seeking to draw our attention to the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. Committing a sin, or sins, is simply evidence of the condition of the heart. It's the other side of the coin that good works reveal the condition of the heart, but do not make us right with God.

-The tempter or his minions should be expected to be deceptive and try to sneak up on us when least expected, and use foul play doing so, as far as possible causing us to do all kinds of things. As we read that the law wich is good has been turned into a snare that kills us.

Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 08:06 PM

Quote:

-The tempter or his minions should be expected to be deceptive and try to sneak up on us when least expected, and use foul play doing so, as far as possible causing us to do all kinds of things. As we read that the law wich is good has been turned into a snare that kills us.

This is true. What he's really trying to do is to get us to perceive God incorrectly. This is how he originally led men into sin, and how he continues to ensnare him. If our view of God is wrong, we can do everything "right" and be further away from Him then "common sinners." This is exactly what happened in Christ's time (and it continues to happen all the time).

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 08:18 PM

John, our views on law and obedience and righteousness are vastly different. I see the law as a transcript of God's character. It defines and describes righteousness perfectly. It lacks nothing. To obey the law is to reproduce the character of God.

The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy. While it promises life to the obedient, it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past" and becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries: "Abba, Father!"

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Romans 3:31; 6:2; 1 John 5:3. In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law.

When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97.

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ.

True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23. The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for His disciples: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." John 17:17. And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:16.

What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told His disciples: "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." John 16:13. And the psalmist says: "Thy law is the truth." By the word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in His law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy.

Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him - by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 09:04 PM

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Romans 3:31; 6:2; 1 John 5:3. In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

TE: According to you, this translation implies that born again believers will continue to sin, yet the verse says exactly the opposite!

MM: It implies that born again believers 1) will, from time to time, sin, but 2) they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning. Instead, 3) they will repent and stop sinning as soon as they are aware of it.

The KJV, on the other hand, states they do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. I spelled it out verse by verse in my last post.

Mike, would you happen to have the proper skills to figgure out what the greek text says in this passage?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 10:34 PM

TE: If so, think of the choices the Jimmy Stewart character made, sacrificing himself for the good of others. These weren't sins. Nothing in inspiration teaches this.

MM: “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” (Isa 64:6) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” (Rom 3:10)

The first verse is dealing with self-righteousness, trying to merit God's favor. The second statement is making the case that no one is perfectly righteous. All have sinned. This is a very different thing than saying that a person can do nothing but sin. Neither of these texts is discussing your point of view.

TE: If what you are asserting were true (that a single sin causes you to be lost) then Ellen White's statement could not be true.

MM: A single unconfessed, unforsaken sin makes us lost. Of course, we can repent and be saved. But if we refuse to repent, we are lost.

She wrote that an occasional misdeed or occasional good deed does not comprise character. I just restated what she said, which viewpoint I consider to be perfectly reasonable and in harmony with what we see in Scripture.

TE: This is an interesting statement. Sinning does not separate us from Jesus.

MM: We cannot sin while we are choosing to abide in Jesus. We must first stop abiding in Him before we can commit a known sin. Sinning is what we do because we are separated from Jesus. It is not what separates us. Continuing in sin continues our separation. Repentance is what restores us to Jesus.

You are continuing to assert that sinning does not separate us from God, correct? If I found a statement that said "sinning separates us from God," would that make any difference? I expect the answer is "no," because you would respond that the statement is using "sin" or "separate" in some other sense than you are.

TE: According to you, this translation implies that born again believers will continue to sin, yet the verse says exactly the opposite!

MM: It implies that born again believers 1) will, from time to time, sin, but 2) they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning. Instead, 3) they will repent and stop sinning as soon as they are aware of it.

The verse says that no one who is born again will continue to sin. According to you, what this is implies is that one who is born again will continue to sin. That's weird reasoning.

How you get 1), 2) and 3) from the simple statement that "no one who is born of God will continue to sin" is odd too.

The KJV, on the other hand, states they do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. I spelled it out verse by verse in my last post.

This isn't right either. That's not what the KJV says. (Take another look, and you can see how what it says differs from what you are saying it says.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 11:45 PM

TE: This is a very different thing than saying that a person can do nothing but sin. Neither of these texts is discussing your point of view.

MM: Tom, are you implying that an unbelieving sinner can do good works? What is the origin and source of his good works? Paul wrote:

Romans
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

TE: How you get 1), 2) and 3) from the simple statement that "no one who is born of God will continue to sin" is odd too.

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

1 John (NIV)
3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John (KJV)
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/11/07 11:58 PM

TV: Mike, would you happen to have the proper skills to figgure out what the greek text says in this passage?

MM: Yes. I have the same sources available to me that are available to you.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin." He feels that he is the purchase of the blood of Christ and bound by the most solemn vows to glorify God in his body and in his spirit, which are God's. The love of sin and the love of self are subdued in him. He daily asks: "What shall I render unto the Lord for all His benefits toward me?" "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?"

The true Christian will never complain that the yoke of Christ is galling to the neck. He accounts the service of Jesus as the truest freedom. The law of God is his delight. Instead of seeking to bring down the divine commands, to accord with his deficiencies, he is constantly striving to rise to the level of their perfection.

It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart and the human agent is purified and cleansed. Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Is it possible to be healed, while knowingly committing sin?

No; it is genuine faith that says, I know that I have committed sin, but that Jesus has pardoned my sin; and hereafter I will resist temptation in and through His might. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth {not professeth to do} righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . . because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." Now mark where the distinction is made: "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother." "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 12:04 AM

TV: 1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

MM: Thomas, do you see a discrepancy between what I posted and the verse you quoted?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 12:41 AM

TE: This is a very different thing than saying that a person can do nothing but sin. Neither of these texts is discussing your point of view.

MM: Tom, are you implying that an unbelieving sinner can do good works? What is the origin and source of his good works?

I'm "implying" just what I said. People, before they are born again, can make right decisions, in accordance with God's will. God alone is good. He is the source for all good, whether for unbelivers or not.

Paul wrote:

Romans
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

TE: How you get 1), 2) and 3) from the simple statement that "no one who is born of God will continue to sin" is odd too.

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

1 John (NIV)
3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John (KJV)
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The difference is in you, in how you are interpreting the versions. You, for some odd reason, are interpreting the NIV, which says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" to mean "One who is born of God will continue to sin."

There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

Did you catch your error regarding what you said the King James version says and what it actually says?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

TE: This is a very different thing than saying that a person can do nothing but sin. Neither of these texts is discussing your point of view.

MM: Tom, are you implying that an unbelieving sinner can do good works? What is the origin and source of his good works? Paul wrote:

Romans
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

It seems to me that this verse tells us what John means by "His commandments". I thought that was worth pointing out.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

TV: Mike, would you happen to have the proper skills to figgure out what the greek text says in this passage?

MM: Yes. I have the same sources available to me that are available to you.

Both you and I can find the greek text online and both you and I have access to Strongs concordance. I however cannot read the greek. That was what I was asking, in case my inquiry wasnt clear enough. So I ask again, do you know how to read biblical greek well enough to tell us which group of translators did the best work or if both did acceptable jobs on this text that is being discussed in this thread.

Quote:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin." He feels that he is the purchase of the blood of Christ and bound by the most solemn vows to glorify God in his body and in his spirit, which are God's. The love of sin and the love of self are subdued in him. He daily asks: "What shall I render unto the Lord for all His benefits toward me?" "Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?"

The true Christian will never complain that the yoke of Christ is galling to the neck. He accounts the service of Jesus as the truest freedom. The law of God is his delight. Instead of seeking to bring down the divine commands, to accord with his deficiencies, he is constantly striving to rise to the level of their perfection.

It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart and the human agent is purified and cleansed. Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Is it possible to be healed, while knowingly committing sin?

No; it is genuine faith that says, I know that I have committed sin, but that Jesus has pardoned my sin; and hereafter I will resist temptation in and through His might. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth {not professeth to do} righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . . because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." Now mark where the distinction is made: "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother." "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth."

It is not clear to me what these paragraphs have to do in a post supposedly concerned with the ability to read and comprehend greek.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 02:06 AM

This made me think of an old joke.

"I know every language in the world but Greek," I said. "What about Chinese?" was the reply.

"It's Greek to me."

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 03:33 AM

Quote:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7.

Obviously the law this is speaking of is not the same as the one of which you spoke above, which provides no remedy for sin.

What you have forgotten or omitted in your first concept of the law is the same thing which the Jews omitted in Christ’s day.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Quote:

And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy.

Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him - by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification.

Therefore what follows is:

Christ is the express image of God’s character.
Christ’s character is perfect exposition of righteousness.
Christ’s character includes the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, faith.
The gospel is the full exposition of God’s character with the weightier matters in place.

What you have done MM is exactly what the Jews did, and why they crucified the Lord. By separating from the law and God’s character the weightier matters, you have established the character of Satan in the place of God.

They took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.
You took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.

They formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.
You formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.

They according to their righteousness, and their interpretation of law crucified the Lord of glory.
You according to your righteousness, and your interpretation of law require the Lord of glory to be crucified.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:17 AM

Excellent, John.

Quote:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Great point. Also the explanation of Christ as the embodiment of God's character, as well as the law (including its weightier matters).

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:17 PM

TE: People, before they are born again, can make right decisions, in accordance with God's will. God alone is good. He is the source for all good, whether for unbelivers or not.

MM: Tom, please help me out, again. Which ones of the following statements best describes what you’re trying to tell me. Thank you.

Quote:

1. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. {SC 18.1}

2. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. {SC 18.2}

3. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. {SC 23.3}

4. It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

5. We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

6. Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. {SC 29.3}

7. It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

TE: The difference is in you, in how you are interpreting the versions. You, for some odd reason, are interpreting the NIV, which says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" to mean "One who is born of God will continue to sin."

MM: I’m sorry, Tom, but can you please help me understand the differences between the following contrasts? Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

………………………

TE: There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

MM: It never occurred to me to read what Jesus taught in the way you just suggested. So, the good tree - bad tree metaphor doesn’t mean what it says, that it actually means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit.

And, this interpretation helps explain why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, that it means they can commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.

Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Does this next quote, and the ones following it, also support your interpretation of the good tree - bad tree metaphor?

UL 154
The fruit of the tree testifies if it is a good or corrupt tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. By their fruits ye shall know them. Let us so speak and so labor that our fruit may be unto righteousness and we letting our light shine forth in good works. Profession is nothing. A godly life alone will God approve. {UL 154.3}

Quote:

The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth.--Manuscript 56, 1900. {Ev 308.2}

The character of the Christian is shown by his daily life. Said Christ, "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit" (Matt. 7:17). Our Saviour compares Himself to a vine, of which His followers are the branches. He plainly declares that all who would be His disciples must bring forth fruit; and then He shows how they may become fruitful branches. "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me" (John 15:4). {RC 96.2}

The apostle Paul describes the fruit which the Christian is to bear. He says that it "is in all goodness and righteousness and truth" (Eph. 5:9). And again, "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal. 5:22, 23). These precious graces are but the principles of God's law carried out in the life. {RC 96.3}

In these days of peril we are not to accept everything that men bring to us as truth. As professed teachers from God come to us declaring that they have a message from God, it is proper to inquire carefully, How do we know that this is truth? Jesus has told us that "false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:11). But we need not be deceived; for the Word of God gives us a test whereby we may know what is truth. The prophet says, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20). {2SM 99.1}

From this statement it is evident that it becomes us to be diligent Bible students, that we may know what is according to the law and the testimony. We are safe in no other course of action. Jesus says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matt. 7:15-19).--The Review and Herald, Feb. 23, 1892. {2SM 99.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

It seems to me that this verse tells us what John means by "His commandments". I thought that was worth pointing out.

Do you mean instead of the ten commandments?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:29 PM

TV: It is not clear to me what these paragraphs have to do in a post supposedly concerned with the ability to read and comprehend greek.

MM: I figure Sister White's comments are more inspired than mere men attempting to interpret and translate the Greek.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:39 PM

JB: Well MM, this is a typical problem we have in communication with you. Try and think this through before you answer.

MM: John, I posted Sister White's comments, not mine. You are critiquing her, not me.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 07:57 PM

1.Asking me to pick what best describes my thought from a list you have composed is pointless.
2.My point regarding the NIV and 1 John 3:9 was that is says "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" (this is from memory; that's close if not perfect) which you, for some reason, interpret to mean "No one who is born of God will not continue to sin." That's what I said was weird. You also had a list of three things which you inferred from this statement, which I saw no basis for inferring.

I pointed out that where I see the difference is not so much in the texts themselves (that is, how the NIV and KJV put it) but in how you interpret them, where you interpret the NIV to mean exactly the opposite of what it says.

3.I'm not following the end of what you were saying, but, in brief, what my point was is that the character is not comprised of the occasional misdeed or occasional good deed. A person can be a born again Christ and occasionally commit an occasional misdeed, a sin. It seems to me that you are taking a principle, and wanting to make an iron clad rule out of it. Actually, all of your views seem to be like this. They are stated in absolutes. You seem to think this way.

For example, you wrote that in order for a person to be born again, the Holy Spirit must reveal every cultivated sinful habit from birth and must confess them all. This is an absolute statement, which is obviously false. I was able to convince you of the falsity of the statement, because you changed it to be that all sinful habits must be revealed and confessed, except for exceptions to the rule. But, even though you recognize the falsity of the absolute statement, which is seen by your correction of it, you still to not admit the error, which is also an interesting characteristic of your style of thinking.

Part of the reason I've continued to dialog with you is to try to understand how you think. It's very challenging. I've figured out a few things, but there are other things I don't understand (such as your reticence to admit error).

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/12/07 08:14 PM

MM, it looks to me like JB was responding to your post #83857, which doesn't even have one EGW comment. It has a lot of your comments though, and JB's post addressed the comments you made, in detail. I think his suggestion to you is well taken. You responded to what he wrote without addressing any of the points he made, and apparently without even being aware of which post of yours he was addressing.

JB expressed thoughts I've been trying to share very well. Thomas is also getting at similar ideas. What Thomas is pointing out is not what John (who wrote the epistle, not JB) was concerned about when he wrote the letter. He conception of keeping the commandments is not at all similar to yours. It is not concerned with sinless behavior, but with loving one's neighbor. This is clear from the examples that John gives, which involve caring for your neighbor. John is pointing out that anyone who knows Christ will love his neighbor and take care of him.

It's not so much that John is saying the opposite of what you are saying, as that John's whole way of thinking, his whole concern, his whole purpose, was different than your way of thinking, your concern, and your purpose.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/13/07 12:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

And they said, Moses said...

Even if you are quoting, you are doing so to communicate something, and I am communicating to you on what you are communicating.

These are important thoughts, and I trust you are considering them, though they might be quite new to you.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/13/07 02:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

It seems to me that this verse tells us what John means by "His commandments". I thought that was worth pointing out.

Do you mean instead of the ten commandments?

I mean that the letter of John interprets itself. John defines what he means when he writes "His commandments" for us so that we wont have to be in doubt about it. For a more thorrough reply, I saw Tom provided one a few posts back.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

If the mere men who attempted interpretation and translation made a scornworthy result, we might aswell throw it away. If you cannot rely on your bible to tell you what the original author did try to communicate, it is of no more weight than any other book in your library.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/13/07 03:25 AM

Kevin had a nice post on this subject on the thread regarding if all the writings of the SOP are inspired.

When I read the SOP I see an emphasis upon reason and thought. I see her present the idea over and over again that God provides us with evidence for what is right and true; evidence regarding His character. He wants us to make decisions on the basis of evidence, not authority. He wants a religion based on conviction, because we are convinced of who God is (i.e. His character) and believe that His ways are right and true. He doesn't want us to follow Him because "He said so."

How we interpret Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy is dependent upon our conception of God's character. If we view God in a primarily authoritarian way, our view of inspiration will reflect that. By authoritarian, I mean that we do what He says not based on the fact that we believe what He says because we believe it to be right, true, and honorable, but because He is God, and whatever He says goes, because He is all-powerful and can squash us like grapes if we don't follow Him.

The problem (a problem among many) with viewing God in an authoritarian manner is that it leads to a religion based on magic or mystery or superstition. We see this in many of the religions of the world. They have "faith" in their mysteries, but it's a faith based on tradition, and the authority of those who pass on the commands. Is our religion any different than those of the others, of the Catholics, or the Moslems, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Mormans? If it is, it is because it is based on truth, not on authority.

I don't know how well I'm presented the idea I'm trying to share, but here are some quotes which should express it well:

Quote:

God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His Word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth, will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith." Steps to Christ 105

Quote:

Experience is said to be the best teacher. Genuine experience is indeed superior to mere theoretical knowledge, but many have an erroneous idea as to what constitutes experience. Real experience is gained by a variety of careful experiments, made with the mind free from prejudice, uncontrolled by previously established opinions and habits. The results are marked with careful solicitude. . .

That which many term experience is not experience at all. . . . There has not been a fair trial by actual experiment and thorough investigation, with a knowledge of the principles involved in the action. (3T 71)

Quote:

13. "Faith in a lie will not have a sanctifying influence upon the life or character. No error is truth, or can be made truth by repetition, or by faith in it. Sincerity will never save a soul from the consequences of believing an error. Without sincerity there is no true religion, but sincerity in a false religion will never save a man. I may be perfectly sincere in following a wrong road, but that will not make it the right road, or bring me to the place I wished to reach. The Lord does not want us to have a blind credulity, and call that the faith that sanctifies. The truth is the principle that sanctifies, and therefore it becomes us to know what is truth. We must compare spiritual things with spiritual. We must prove all things, but hold fast only that which is good, that which bears the divine credentials, which lays before us the true motives and principles which should prompt us to action." Letter 12, 1890; Selected Messages, vol. 2, p. 56

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/13/07 07:21 PM

Tom, I am reposting the following post. Please take the time to address my concerns and questions. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Quote:

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 12:28 AM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 12:40 AM

TV: If the mere men who attempted interpretation and translation made a scornworthy result, we might aswell throw it away. If you cannot rely on your bible to tell you what the original author did try to communicate, it is of no more weight than any other book in your library.

MM: Actually, the KJV of the Bible is very reliable, not perfect, but very trustworthy. And, praise the Lord, we have the SOP to steer us right in those few places where the translators got it wrong. I trust how the SOP applied John's first epistle in regards to the "commandment" he wrote about.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 03:13 AM

In BSDA, there was a discussion conserning eagles in the bible. The hebrew word means either eagle or vulture, and as my hebrew dictionary points out, the descriptions given in the bible at times confirms that it is indeed speaking about vultures. Despite of this, the KJV consistently translates it eagles. Why? One likely hypothesis is that the 50 translators having lived their entire life in northern europe had no concept of there being such a bird as a vulture so they took the only alternative left to them. Today we are familiar with the existence of vultures. Should we then stick with the KJV translation of eagles at all times or should we in context examine wether it may be talking about vultures?

This is a reason why checking again may be profitable. Language schoolars today know more about the translation of the hebrew language than they did then for the simple reason that they have had more opportunity to read different documents in the language and thereby gaining an increased understanding of the nuances of the languages. And we should remember that it isnt alltogether unlikely that the KJV will be confirmed at many places by doing this.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 06:23 AM

MM, please see post #83913. I addressed your concerns there. If you didn't understand something I wrote there, you can ask me something specific.

Tom

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 06:25 AM

JB: These are important thoughts, and I trust you are considering them, though they might be quite new to you.

MM: John, it is hard for me to appreciate it when you even find fault with what Sister White wrote about it.

He didn't. As I pointed out, the post he responded to didn't have any EGW quotes in it. I gave you the number of the post. You haven't addressed any of the points JB made, in two responses now.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 06:42 AM

MM: Actually, the KJV of the Bible is very reliable, not perfect, but very trustworthy. And, praise the Lord, we have the SOP to steer us right in those few places where the translators got it wrong. I trust how the SOP applied John's first epistle in regards to the "commandment" he wrote about.

What leads you to write something like this? First of all, I agree with you that KJV is an excellent translation. However, we are not fundamentalists. We do not believe in verbal inspiration. The Bible is not a rule book, where God gives us rules, and then sends a prophet to make sure we get the rules right when the translators goof.

Consider the example TV gave. Did Ellen White write somewhere that these were really vultures and not eagles? Even though the KJV is very good, there are still many errors in it. The Bible has thousands of verses. Even only one error in a hundred verses would still be a lot. As Thomas points out, there are things we know now that translators didn't know then. We know more about the culture and the language. From Ellen White's time, there are things we know about that she didn't know.

What evidence can you adduce that part of Ellen White's ministry was to correct the KJV?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 07:27 PM

Eagles or vultures? Again, there are places in the KJV where the translators didn't get it right. But doctrinally speaking it is almost always right. One exception is the word "sacrifice" in Daniel.

EW 74
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Dan. 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text . . . {EW 74.2}

Tom, in relation to John’s response to my post (83857) I am referring to his post (83888). All but the first paragraph of my post is from the SOP. The edit button is missing and I could not go back and place her comments in quotes.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 07:31 PM

TE: MM, please see post #83913. I addressed your concerns there. If you didn't understand something I wrote there, you can ask me something specific.

1. Asking me to pick what best describes my thought from a list you have composed is pointless.

MM: Please humor me. The list is from SC. Here it is again.

Quote:

2. My point regarding the NIV and 1 John 3:9 was that is says "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" (this is from memory; that's close if not perfect) which you, for some reason, interpret to mean "No one who is born of God will not continue to sin."

Quote:

3. . . . the character is not comprised of the occasional misdeed or occasional good deed. A person can be a born again Christ and occasionally commit an occasional misdeed, a sin.

MM: I agree.

………………………….

TE: There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

MM: It never occurred to me to read what Jesus taught in the way you just suggested: 1) that the good tree - bad tree metaphor actually means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit, 2) that this interpretation helps explain why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, 3) that it means they can commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.

Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

MM: Does this next quote, and the ones following it, also support your interpretation of the good tree - bad tree metaphor?

UL 154
The fruit of the tree testifies if it is a good or corrupt tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. By their fruits ye shall know them. Let us so speak and so labor that our fruit may be unto righteousness and we letting our light shine forth in good works. Profession is nothing. A godly life alone will God approve. {UL 154.3}

Quote:

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

It appears you do not wish to own what you wrote or quoted.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 10:21 PM

I can't make sense of your last post, MM. Sorry. The only thing I understood from it was your repeated request that I choose something that represents my thought from a list you composed. I don't see the point in this.

You seem to have the idea that one either exhibits sinful behavior all the time, or does so none of the time. Either everything a person does is sinful behavior, or none of it is. My point is that this is not the case. Neither Scripture nor our experience bears this out.

Nothing on your list is looked to be presenting the point I was making. Everything on your list appeared to me to be dealing with the necessity of being converted.

Tom

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/14/07 10:23 PM

MM, John's post #83888 was very well written, I thought, and presented excellent points and arguments. I haven't seen that you have addressed any of these.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 12:49 AM

JB: It appears you do not wish to own what you wrote or quoted.

MM: I agree with with what Sister White wrote. I disagree with your critique of what she wrote.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 01:07 AM

TE: You seem to have the idea that one either exhibits sinful behavior all the time, or does so none of the time. Either everything a person does is sinful behavior, or none of it is. My point is that this is not the case. Neither Scripture nor our experience bears this out.

MM: Again, I believe everything we do before we experience the miracle of rebirth is tainted with selfishness. And, I believe everything we do as a result of abiding in Jesus is righteous. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

TE: Nothing on your list is looked to be presenting the point I was making. Everything on your list appeared to me to be dealing with the necessity of being converted.

MM: I posted the list in response to your claim that unconverted people perform good works which count as good works from God's perspective. The following quote is interesting n light of what you believe about it.

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

.................

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV in the following questions. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

.................

TE: There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

MM: Here's what I hear you saying (please correct me if I've misunderstood you):

1) the good tree - bad tree metaphor means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit,

2) this insight explains why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus,

3) instead, 1 John 3:1-10 means born again believers can commit a known sin while they are actively abiding in Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 04:32 AM

MM, you're reframing our dialog, having me make claims I'm not making and saying things I'm not saying. I chose my words carefully. You should stick to what I'm actually saying.

Yes, you misunderstood my point with the trees. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. It was clear.

You're saying everything so differently than what I am, I don't know how to continue from here, unless you backtrack and deal with points I'm actually making and things I'm actually saying.

I'd be interested in your responding to JB's post, which I thought was excellent. (83888) Perhaps you can understand JB better than you have understood me. We could continue our discussion on the basis of that post.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 04:50 AM

I thought of another way of trying to make my point, so forget about my previous attempt, as it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

You've brought out several times that the process of being born again is a length, protracted process. I think you see the process as follows:

a)The Holy Spirit works with the unbeliever to give up sinful habits.
b)The unbeliever learns about sinful habits, and gives them up little by little (this is the lengthy, protracted process) until he's finally ready to have every cultivated habit since birth revealed to him, and confess them all (not including exceptions to the rule).
c)At this point the person becomes born again, and ceases doing any sinful behavior, as long as he abides in Jesus.

I'm pretty sure this is accurate, according to what you have been sharing, but please correct my characterization of your beliefs if you disagree with anything I've said above.

I'll guess I'll stop here and just ask if I've correctly understood your ideas.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 06:34 PM

a) The Holy Spirit works with the unbeliever to give up sinful habits.

MM: Not “give up”, but rather the Holy Spirit influences them to “confess”, in light of the cross, their sinful habits and practices. They admit that their cultivated habits are sinful and need to be crucified.

b) The unbeliever learns about sinful habits, and gives them up little by little (this is the lengthy, protracted process) until he's finally ready to have every cultivated habit since birth revealed to him, and confess them all (not including exceptions to the rule).

MM: In normal cases, ones not involving exceptions to the rule, the Holy Spirit carefully reveals to them, in light of the cross, their cultivated sinful habits. He does not reveal to them the sinful traits and tendencies that they inherited at birth but have not yet cultivated.

c) At this point the person becomes born again, and ceases doing any sinful behavior, as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: The Holy Spirit empowers them to crucify their old man sinful habits when the last sinful habit is revealed to them and confessed. At this point they are born again. They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

They are not incapable of committing a known sin, but to do so they must first stop abiding in Jesus, stop walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, revert back to the mind of the old man, all of which happens the instant they take their eyes off Jesus – and then all they can do is sin.

Repentance restores the relationship their sin severed, and they resume abiding in Jesus, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

…………………………….

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV in the following questions. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

………………………………

MM: Here's what I hear you saying (please correct me if I've misunderstood you):

1) the good tree - bad tree metaphor means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit,

2) this insight explains why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus,

3) instead, 1 John 3:1-10 means born again believers can commit a known sin while they are actively abiding in Jesus.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: John Boskovic

Quote:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7.

Quote:

Therefore what follows is:

Christ is the express image of God’s character.
Christ’s character is perfect exposition of righteousness.
Christ’s character includes the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, faith.
The gospel is the full exposition of God’s character with the weightier matters in place.

They took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.
You took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.

They formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.
You formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.

They according to their righteousness, and their interpretation of law crucified the Lord of glory.
You according to your righteousness, and your interpretation of law require the Lord of glory to be crucified.

JB wrote:

Therefore the sum of what you stated is:
God’s character reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.
God’s righteousness provides no remedy for sin.
The gospel of Christ must therefore be outside of God’s character.
Christ must be unlike God’s character.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

………………………….

JB wrote:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Obviously the law this is speaking of is not the same as the one of which you spoke above, which provides no remedy for sin. What you have forgotten or omitted in your first concept of the law is the same thing which the Jews omitted in Christ’s day.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

………………………….

JB wrote:

What you have done MM is exactly what the Jews did, and why they crucified the Lord. By separating from the law and God’s character the weightier matters, you have established the character of Satan in the place of God.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

And here I thought JB had responded on your comments Mike, rather than Ellens.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 07:06 PM

a) The Holy Spirit works with the unbeliever to give up sinful habits.

MM: Not “give up”, but rather the Holy Spirit influences them to “confess”, in light of the cross, their sinful habits and practices. They admit that their cultivated habits are sinful and need to be crucified.

They confess them, but don't give them up? Is that what you're saying?

b) The unbeliever learns about sinful habits, and gives them up little by little (this is the lengthy, protracted process) until he's finally ready to have every cultivated habit since birth revealed to him, and confess them all (not including exceptions to the rule).

MM: In normal cases, ones not involving exceptions to the rule, the Holy Spirit carefully reveals to them, in light of the cross, their cultivated sinful habits. He does not reveal to them the sinful traits and tendencies that they inherited at birth but have not yet cultivated.

c) At this point the person becomes born again, and ceases doing any sinful behavior, as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: The Holy Spirit empowers them to crucify their old man sinful habits when the last sinful habit is revealed to them and confessed. At this point they are born again.

Ok, so you're definition of being born again is having the last sinful habit revealed and confessed. (excluding exceptions). Being born again has nothing to do with the heart being transformed? Or God waits until the last sin is confessed, and at that moment transforms the heart? I'm not getting where the transformation of the heart fits in.

They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

They are not incapable of committing a known sin, but to do so they must first stop abiding in Jesus, stop walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, revert back to the mind of the old man, all of which happens the instant they take their eyes off Jesus – and then all they can do is sin.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 07:09 PM

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV in the following questions. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

I've answered this three times, or something like that.

………………………………

MM: Here's what I hear you saying (please correct me if I've misunderstood you):

1) the good tree - bad tree metaphor means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit,

No.

2) this insight explains why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus,

No.

3) instead, 1 John 3:1-10 means born again believers can commit a known sin while they are actively abiding in Jesus.

No. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. This is so far off from what I said, I don't know how to respond. If it were closer, I could try to clarify some points. But this is so different than what I was saying, I don't know where to begin, which is why I suggested dropping it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 07:16 PM

MM, JB wasn't responding to what Sister White wrote, but what you wrote. He quoted what you said, which was this:

Quote:

Then he made his points.

Even if JB had been characterizing Sister White in some incorrect way, for you to just state that you disagree is not enlightening; you could at least have made clear what you were disagreeing with and why.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 08:56 PM

TV: And here I thought JB had responded on your comments Mike, rather than Ellens.

MM: I explained that I was unable to go back and put her comments in quotations. It was because the "edit" function disabled itself before I realized my mistake. Again, the first paragraph is mine, the rest are hers, the ones JB critiqued.

TE: MM, JB wasn't responding to what Sister White wrote, but what you wrote. He quoted what you said, which was this:

MM: Please go back to my post and you'll see that her comments begin at the second paragraph which begins with - The law reveals to man his sins. . .

TE: Even if JB had been characterizing Sister White in some incorrect way, for you to just state that you disagree is not enlightening; you could at least have made clear what you were disagreeing with and why.

MM: I posted exactly what I disagree with. It should be obvious why.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 09:39 PM

Quote:

John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

Quote:

Chap. 138 - Fruit-Bearing Branches

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:1, 2. {OHC 144.1}

The Saviour . . . points out the sign of discipleship: "Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." By faith we are to lay hold on a living God, and maintain an experience that shall breathe love, tenderness, kindness, compassion, and affection. These traits of character are the fruit that the Lord Jesus desires us to produce, and to present before the world as a witness that we have a Saviour who can uplift and who can satisfy. . . . We need not be on the losing side, for in everything He is our sufficiency. {OHC 144.2}

What we need is the presence of Jesus Christ. We want His truth shining in our hearts, pervading all our life actions. This will determine whether or not we are branches of the True Vine. If we are fruit-bearing branches we may expect that the Great Husbandman will prune us, that we may bring forth more fruit. All that is useless, all that would hinder our growth in the Christian life, must be removed. {OHC 144.3}

When the purging comes, we frequently feel that the Lord is against us. Instead of this we should look to ourselves and see if there is not something we have left undone or something we need to take away from our lives before we can stand in right relation to God. . . . {OHC 144.4}

We must be living branches of the True Vine, daily laying hold of our Redeemer that we may bear the fruits of a Christian character. . . . When we are willing to practice self-denial and self-sacrifice, as Christ practiced it in His life, we shall bear fruit to God's glory. {OHC 144.5}

It is the Saviour's delight to see His followers colaborers with God, receiving bountifully all the means of fruit bearing, and giving bountifully, as workers under Him. Christ glorified His Father by the fruit He bore, and the lives of His true followers will produce the same result. Receiving and imparting, His workers will produce much fruit. {OHC 144.6}

Chap. 139 - Abiding in Christ

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:4. {OHC 145.1}

As the severed branch, leafless, and apparently lifeless, is ingrafted into the living stock, and, fiber by fiber, and vein by vein, drinks in the life and strength of the vine until it buds and blossoms and bears fruit, even so may the sinner, by repentance and faith, connect himself with Christ, become a partaker of the divine nature, and bring forth in words and deeds the fruit of a holy life. {OHC 145.2}

Jesus "has life in himself," and this life He offers to impart freely, to souls that are dead in trespasses and sins. Yea, He shares with them His purity, His honor, and exaltation. . . . The sapless branch, ingrafted into the living vine, becomes a part of the vine. It lives while united to the vine. So the Christian lives by virtue of his union with Christ. The sinful and human is linked to the holy and divine. The believing soul abides in Christ, and becomes one with Him. When persons are closely united in the relations of this life, their tastes become similar, they come to love the same things. So those who abide in Christ will love the things which He loves. They will sacredly cherish and obey His commandments. . . . {OHC 145.3}

The vine-branch, nourished from the parent stock, becomes flourishing and fruitful. Its rich and fragrant clusters attest its union with the living vine. So the Christian, abiding in Jesus, will bring forth fruit. In character and life will be manifested, like the teeming cluster of the vine, the precious graces of the Spirit,--love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. . . . {OHC 145.4}

Resolve that you will be fruit-bearing members of the living Vine. The scion can flourish only as it receives life and strength from the parent stock. Improve, then, every opportunity to connect yourselves more closely with Christ. It is by believing Him, loving Him, copying Him, and depending wholly upon Him, that you are to become one with Him; and through you His life and character will be revealed to the world. {OHC 145.5}

Chap. 140 - The Source of My Strength

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5. {OHC 146.1}

We are finite, but a wonderful arrangement has been made that we may have close connection with the Infinite. . . . Finite beings at their best can do but little, but Christ working through humanity may accomplish wonderful results. {OHC 146.2}

It is a painful thought to me that I can do so little. The limited sphere of human capabilities leads me to feel indeed the words of Christ, "Without Me ye can do nothing." Many are endowed with superior talents and do not use them, because they have no living connection with God. . . . My own scanty knowledge and feeble energies drive me to Jesus, and the language of my heart is, "Oh God, I can do nothing. I hang my helpless soul on Thee, Jesus Christ my Saviour. Put Thy grace into my heart. Attract my mind from my weakness to Thy almighty strength, from my ignorance to Thy eternal wisdom, from my frailty to Thy enduring might. Give me correct views of the great plan of redemption. Let me see and understand what Christ is to me, and that my heart, soul, mind, and strength are bought with a price. Christ has imparted to me that I may impart to others. Lift up my soul; strengthen and enlighten my mind that I may comprehend more clearly the character of God as revealed in Jesus Christ, that I may know that it is my privilege to be a partaker of the divine nature." {OHC 146.3}

The great and eternal power of God fills my mind with awe, and sometimes even terror. . . . May I indeed look upon Jesus, full of goodness and compassion and love, and behold the Lord God, and call Him by the endearing name of Father. {OHC 146.4}

The deep struggles of my own soul against temptations, the earnest longings of my mind and heart to know God and Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour, and to have assurance, peace, and rest in their love, lead me to desire every day to be where the beams of the Sun of Righteousness can shine upon me. {OHC 146.5}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

MM, please see post #83913. I addressed your concerns there. If you didn't understand something I wrote there, you can ask me something specific.

Tom

The following post is 83913:

Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

1. Asking me to pick what best describes my thought from a list you have composed is pointless.

2. My point regarding the NIV and 1 John 3:9 was that is says "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" (this is from memory; that's close if not perfect) which you, for some reason, interpret to mean "No one who is born of God will not continue to sin." That's what I said was weird. You also had a list of three things which you inferred from this statement, which I saw no basis for inferring.

I pointed out that where I see the difference is not so much in the texts themselves (that is, how the NIV and KJV put it) but in how you interpret them, where you interpret the NIV to mean exactly the opposite of what it says.

3. I'm not following the end of what you were saying, but, in brief, what my point was is that the character is not comprised of the occasional misdeed or occasional good deed. A person can be a born again Christ and occasionally commit an occasional misdeed, a sin. It seems to me that you are taking a principle, and wanting to make an iron clad rule out of it. Actually, all of your views seem to be like this. They are stated in absolutes. You seem to think this way.

For example, you wrote that in order for a person to be born again, the Holy Spirit must reveal every cultivated sinful habit from birth and must confess them all. This is an absolute statement, which is obviously false. I was able to convince you of the falsity of the statement, because you changed it to be that all sinful habits must be revealed and confessed, except for exceptions to the rule. But, even though you recognize the falsity of the absolute statement, which is seen by your correction of it, you still to not admit the error, which is also an interesting characteristic of your style of thinking.

Part of the reason I've continued to dialog with you is to try to understand how you think. It's very challenging. I've figured out a few things, but there are other things I don't understand (such as your reticence to admit error).

Point #1 did not address my question.

………………..

Point #2 did not address my question.

Quote:

It would be nice if you would take the time to explain the differences.

………………………

Point #3 did not address my question.

…………………..

In the following post you introduce your interpretation of the good tree – bad tree metaphor:

Quote:

[1] The difference is in you, in how you are interpreting the versions. You, for some odd reason, are interpreting the NIV, which says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" to mean "One who is born of God will continue to sin."

[2] There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

[3] Did you catch your error regarding what you said the King James version says and what it actually says?

1&3. I believe what the NIV means is – They will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning. Which means they will, on occasion, commit known sins. The KJV does not allow for this idea. It simply says they do not and cannot sin while abiding in Jesus.

2. “This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit.” In my mind, this idea implies that good trees can, on occasion, produce bad fruit. Is that what you meant to say?

“Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.” Again, in my mind, this idea implies that 1 John 3:1-10, the passage we have been examining, means that people who are abiding in Jesus can, while abiding in Jesus, commit a known sin. Is that what you meant to say?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/15/07 11:14 PM

My first point did address your first question. I pointed out that for you to make a list of things to choose from which best address my point is pointless. Why would you do this? You put a bunch of things on the list that are talking about something else, and asking for me to pick from that.

On the second question, my point was not that there were differences between the NIV and the KJV, but that you were interpreting the NIV in a strange way. The NIV says the born again believer will not continue to sin, but you wrote that it implied such would continue to sin, because it used the phrase "continue to sin" instead of "doth not sin." I don't think this is so much a difference between the NIV and the KJV as it is a difference in the way you are interpreting these translations.

You are interpreting the KJV to mean exactly what you believe, and are interpreting the NIV to mean something different than what you believe. You are the one making the case that these translations are different, which I pointed out.

You seem to be doing the same thing in this question as in the first, which is to ask me to make your point for you. You need to make your own points. If you think the versions are different, you need to point out why.

I don't know what the third question is.

Regarding your interpretation of the NIV, I don't read anything in the text which suggests that they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning. I don't think this is what John was talking about -- this wasn't on his mind at all. And it's not what the NIV says or implies. I don't see that. You'd have to explain what there is in the text that makes you think this, because it appears to me you are reading your idea into the text.

Regarding the KJV, English is not so precise as to disallow other meanings, as you are suggesting. There are many who accept the KJV translation as accurate who do not interpret it to say what you think it is saying.

By the way, the sin that John is talking about is not sinful behavior, such as smoking or drinking, but the sin of not loving your neighbor. This is brought out by the context.

Also, John says that one who is born again cannot commit sin. He doesn't says, a born again person does not commit sin as long as he abides in Jesus. He simply says a born again person cannot sin. Actually John gives as the reason that the born again person cannot sin is because he is born again. So if you were correct that John was actually saying that the "cannot sin" part means literally "in unable to commit any sin whatsoever at any time" then this would mean that no born again person would ever sin, even once.

Regarding the good tree producing bad fruit, I thought I was clear. In fact, as I re-read it, I see that I was clear. I wrote:

Quote:

This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

I do not see anything unclear about this. I could write it out numerically:

1.This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit.

2.Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees.

3.The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin.

4.It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

Please note that there is absolutely nothing in these points which suggests or implies that a born again believer *will* sin. It is pointing out that John's point is not that a born again believer is incapable of sinning, nor that no born again believer will ever commit a sin.

Indeed, we know this cannot be John's point because he states elsewhere that if anyone sin, we have an advocate. He says, "I write these things that ye sin not" recognizing that it is not necessary to sin, but also writes, "If anyone sin..." recognizing the possibility of sin.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 12:21 AM

Okay, Tom, based on what you just posted it sounds like we're saying the same thing about 1 John 3:1-10. I believe this passage, verses 1 thru 10 (not verse 9 by itself), teach us that we will not commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 12:39 AM

It is verse 9 that stipulates the condition of not sinning.

Quote:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It doesn't say, "whoever abides in Jesus cannot sin." It says, "he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

So if you interpret "cannot sin" to mean "is unable to commit even one sin," then this means that no one who is born of God is able to commit even one sin. It's not talking about abiding in Jesus here. It's talking about being born again.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 03:05 AM

But verse 9 does not exist in a vacuum. The context matters. John is talking about sinning and not sinning and abiding in Jesus and not abiding in Jesus.

It doesn't say they lose the ability to choose to stop abiding in Jesus and to revert back to their sinful ways. It simply says they do not and cannot commit a sin while choosing to abide in Jesus.

I thought we agreed on these points. You cited the good tree - bad tree metaphor to prove that born again believers do not sin while abiding in the vine. We agreed on this point, as well. or, did I misunderstand you?

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" = "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Well MM, this is a typical problem we have in communication with you. Try and think this through before you answer.

You state:
The Law is a transcript of God’s character.
The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.
It defines and describes righteousness perfectly.
The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin.

Therefore the sum of what you stated is:
God’s character reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.
God’s righteousness provides no remedy for sin.
The gospel of Christ must therefore be outside of God’s character.
Christ must be unlike God’s character.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, this has nothing to do with EW. What this has to do is with your correlation of your first paragraph and your EW quote which is not in context with your pretext. So the sum is that it is your interpretation and implication, that the law which has no remedy for sin is the perfect and complete transcript of God's character; and that the gospel is something therefore apart from God's character/righteousness/law.

Quote:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7.

Obviously the law this is speaking of is not the same as the one of which you spoke above, which provides no remedy for sin.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, this is plain scripture here; right!? I did not contend with this scripture but agreed with it as you see below. I pointed out that it is obvious that this scripture does not agree with your pretext that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. This scripture which you quoted, says that it does. And, it does when that which you have omitted is reunited, as stated below.

What you have forgotten or omitted in your first concept of the law is the same thing which the Jews omitted in Christ’s day.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Quote:

Therefore what follows is:

Christ is the express image of God’s character.
Christ’s character is perfect exposition of righteousness.
Christ’s character includes the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, faith.
The gospel is the full exposition of God’s character with the weightier matters in place.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, my statements are fully in agreement with the quoote you supplied. What are you disagreeing with?
You are likely disagreeing with what I wrote that follows about what you did. It has to do with your interpretation and application of it. Your first paragraph establishes the pretext for what you correlated and associated with those thoughts, and that is where you present that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. But, I have shown from the quotes you gave and the scriptures that the gospel of Christ is certainly that character/righteousness/law of God which is the remedy and salvation from sin.

What you have done MM is exactly what the Jews did, and why they crucified the Lord. By separating from the law and God’s character the weightier matters, you have established the character of Satan in the place of God.

They took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.
You took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.

They formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.
You formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.

They according to their righteousness, and their interpretation of law crucified the Lord of glory.
You according to your righteousness, and your interpretation of law require the Lord of glory to be crucified.

Christ came to reveal the truth of the law and God’s character; the remedy for sin; so that we may be saved.
Christ came to save just from such a concept of the law which is devoid of judgment, mercy and faith.

I just like you to note that the word “judgment” here means something different than what you think judgment to be. For in this judgment, mercy and faith are the weightier matters.

Thus in Christ who is the express image of the invisible God it is fully fulfilled:
Psa 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

There is a law which has no remedy for sin. That law is the letter of God's law without the spirit of God; without judgment, mercy and faith. Such a law is of the spirit of Satan and produces death. It ought to be obvious that when one removes the weightier matters from God's law, it is no longer the transcript of God's character; but has at such time become "the law of sin and death".

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Now which law shall you fulfill?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 06:52 AM

Quote:

No, that's not what the verse says. As I've pointed out several times now, it says that the one who is born again cannot sin. You are mixing the phrase from one verse and combining it with another, and then claiming "this is what it says." But it doesn't.

You may content that this is what it means, but it certainly is not what it says.

The context is not about abiding in Christ, or not abiding in Christ, but about loving one's neighbor. If you read the epistle, you can see this emphasis from beginning to end. John simply doesn't have the emphasis nor does he have in mind the point you are trying to make.

I'd suggest reading the epistle from beginning to end at one sitting (it's short, so this is easy to do) to get a flavor of what John is talking about. He is talking about love throughout. We saw perfect love when Christ dwelt amongst us. Our hands felt it, our eyes saw it.

Christ, the embodiment of love, left a commandment, that we should love one another as He has loved us. This was the burden of John's heart. This was what he talked about for the whole epistle.

Quote:

It simply says they do not and cannot commit a sin while choosing to abide in Jesus.

I'd like to reiterate so it's clear to you that this is not what the verse says. It says that one who is born of God cannot sin, NOT one who is abiding in Christ cannot sin.

Now a bit later you wrote:

Quote:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" = "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"

This you could make a case for. And if it said "Whosoever abideth in him cannot commit sin" you could make a case that this = "Whosoever is born again cannot sin" (which it actually does say). But it doesn't. So you cannot make this case.

What you're saying is actually backwards from the text. You are saying that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus. The text says that a born again person cannot sin. So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again, but not the other way around. Twisting it is attempting to make the text say something it doesn't say.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 07:23 AM

MM: Not “give up”, but rather the Holy Spirit influences them to “confess”, in light of the cross, their sinful habits and practices. They admit that their cultivated habits are sinful and need to be crucified.

TE: They confess them, but don't give them up? Is that what you're saying?

MM: Not “give up” in the sense that they are “crucified”. My list of SC quotes explains that unconverted people are motivated to make outward corrections to their behavior, but I believe that such things are not the same thing as crucifying them.

………………………

MM: The Holy Spirit empowers them to crucify their old man sinful habits when the last sinful habit is revealed to them and confessed. At this point they are born again.

TE: Ok, so you're definition of being born again is having the last sinful habit revealed and confessed. (excluding exceptions). Being born again has nothing to do with the heart being transformed? Or God waits until the last sin is confessed, and at that moment transforms the heart? I'm not getting where the transformation of the heart fits in.

MM: They experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their old man is crucified. It is at this precise point that God “implants” within them the sinless seed or mind of the new man. It comes complete with all the “fruits” and “righteous attributes” of God’s character. “Not one is missing.” They receive a “heart of flesh”.

It doesn't seem to me you are being consistent in what you're saying here. You said that the conversion process is a lengthy, protracted process where each sinful habit cultivated since birth is revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed. My impression from what you said before is that this legnthy and protraced process was begun before the person is born again, and only completed when the last sin is confessed. So if it begins earlier, then the earlier work must include a complete confession, including crucifying them, or else it's of no value. There's two possibilities:

a)Some of them are crucified before the person is born again, during a preliminary part of the protracted process

or

b)All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again.

If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

……………………………..

MM: They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

TE: Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

MM: Jesus explained what it means by using the vine-branch metaphor. He also said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

This is completely circular, right? You are maintaining that:

1)If a person abides in Jesus, he cannot sin.

and

2)To abide in Jesus means to keep HIs commandments.

So this means that as long as one keeps HIs commandments, one cannot sin. And since sin is transgression of the law, this means that as long as one keeps His commandments, one cannot break them.

That's not really saying much, is it?

Quote:
John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a myster" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

Quote:

"I have been shown that many who profess to have a knowledge of present truth know not what they believe. They do not understand the evidences of their faith. . . . When the time of trial shall come, there are men now preaching to others who will find, upon examining the positions they hold, that there are many things for which they can give no satisfactory reason....

It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 707,708 (1889); GW 297-300; CWE 39,40; Maranatha 45; LDE 70

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 07:52 AM

Quote:

There is a law which has no remedy for sin. That law is the letter of God's law without the spirit of God; without judgment, mercy and faith. Such a law is of the spirit of Satan and produces death. It ought to be obvious that when one removes the weightier matters from God's law, it is no longer the transcript of God's character; but has at such time become "the law of sin and death".

It's intersting that justce and mercy are linked together. (the KJV has "judgment," but this, in our parlance, is actually "justice," as the NKJV has it).

It is thought be some that justice and mercy have nothing to do with one another, but both are a part of God's character, and, as this verse you have cited demonstrates, both are incorporated in God's law.

Here are a couple of nice texts which bring out the relationship between mercy and justice:

Quote:

Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Execute true justice, Show mercy and compassion Everyone to his brother." (Zech. 7:9)

Quote:

Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice. (Isa. 30:18)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 06:51 PM

JB: MM, this has nothing to do with EW. What this has to do is with your correlation of your first paragraph and your EW quote which is not in context with your pretext. So the sum is that it is your interpretation and implication, that the law which has no remedy for sin is the perfect and complete transcript of God's character; and that the gospel is something therefore apart from God's character/righteousness/law.

MM: John, I do not believe the gospel is something apart from God’s character or righteousness or law. God’s law (10Cs) is a transcript of God’s character. However, the law (10Cs) does not provide a remedy for sin, and in this way the law (10Cs) of God does not reflect the character or kingdom of God.

……………………

JB: MM, this is plain scripture here; right!? I did not contend with this scripture but agreed with it as you see below. I pointed out that it is obvious that this scripture does not agree with your pretext that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. This scripture which you quoted, says that it does. And, it does when that which you have omitted is reunited, as stated below.

MM: I do not believe the law (10Cs) of God in and of itself can convert us. When Jesus spoke of the “weightier matters of the law” He was referring to law in general, not to the Ten Commandments (10Cs). “The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us.” (RC 55)

……………………….

JB: MM, my statements are fully in agreement with the quoote you supplied. What are you disagreeing with?

MM: Here’s what I posted:

Quote:

JB wrote:

What you have done MM is exactly what the Jews did, and why they crucified the Lord. By separating from the law and God’s character the weightier matters, you have established the character of Satan in the place of God.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

JB: You are likely disagreeing with what I wrote that follows about what you did. It has to do with your interpretation and application of it. Your first paragraph establishes the pretext for what you correlated and associated with those thoughts, and that is where you present that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. But, I have shown from the quotes you gave and the scriptures that the gospel of Christ is certainly that character/righteousness/law of God which is the remedy and salvation from sin.

MM: Again, I do not believe the Ten Commandments (10Cs) can save or convert us. In this way the law (10Cs) is unlike God.

…………………..

JB: There is a law which has no remedy for sin. That law is the letter of God's law without the spirit of God; without judgment, mercy and faith. Such a law is of the spirit of Satan and produces death. It ought to be obvious that when one removes the weightier matters from God's law, it is no longer the transcript of God's character; but has at such time become "the law of sin and death".

MM: Again, the law (10Cs) does not provide a remedy for sin. “The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.” (GC 467) “His blood is the only remedy for sin.” (FLB 102) The “law of sin and death” Paul spoke about is not the law (10Cs) divorced from weightier matters. The word “law” in this case is referring to a principle.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 08:06 PM

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

…………………………

TE: b) All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again. If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

MM: I believe the Holy Spirit reveals to people their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the “long . . . patient, protracted process” (DA 172) of conversion, a process which can lead to conversion and rebirth if people “do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.” (MB 76) He reveals them no faster than they are able to handle it.

During the process of conversion they “confess” their sinful habits, but they do not “crucify” them until the instant they are born again. They are not revealed all at once in an instant, but they are crucified all at once in an instant. “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

……………………….

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

MM: To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

MM: That sounds circular to me, too. Jesus said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.” (John 7:17) In other words, we must first obey God to determine if it is doctrinally right, and not the other way around.

FE 125
For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. {FE 125.2}

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

………………………..

TE: The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a myster" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

MM: I borrowed the expression “like magic” from Sister White. It seems appropriate to me. I also borrowed the word “mystery” from the apostle Paul.

Quote:

The springs of heavenly peace and joy, unsealed in the soul of the teacher by the magic words of Inspiration, will become a mighty river of influence, to bless all who connect with him. {CT 171.2}

Within the past few years, doors have been thrown open as if by magic, and men and women are needed to enter these doors and begin earnest work for the salvation of souls. {CT 524.1}

[Systematic benevolence] has worked like magic. {4bSG 121.2}

The world was awakened from the slumber of ages, as from land to land were sounded the magic words, "Religious Liberty." {SR 338.4}

MM: Sister White goes on to say the following about the operation of the science of salvation:

TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 08:27 PM

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

…………………………

TE: b) All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again. If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

MM: I believe the Holy Spirit reveals to people their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the “long . . . patient, protracted process” (DA 172) of conversion, a process which can lead to conversion and rebirth if people “do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.” (MB 76) He reveals them no faster than they are able to handle it.

During the process of conversion they “confess” their sinful habits, but they do not “crucify” them until the instant they are born again. They are not revealed all at once in an instant, but they are crucified all at once in an instant. “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?
……………………….

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

MM: To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

MM: That sounds circular to me, too. Jesus said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.” (John 7:17) In other words, we must first obey God to determine if it is doctrinally right, and not the other way around.

Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

FE 125
For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. {FE 125.2}

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Do you think John had your ideas in mind when he wrote about abiding in Jesus? (I don't see any evidence of this in his epistle, or in anything he wrote, which is why I'm curious. He seems to have had other ideas in mind in what he wrote. Have you considered reading his epistle for the purpose of getting what his ideas were?

………………………..

TE: The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a mystery" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

MM: I borrowed the expression “like magic” from Sister White. It seems appropriate to me. I also borrowed the word “mystery” from the apostle Paul.

You are using the words differently, especially in the case of Paul. Two of the SOP quotes use "magic" similarly to how you did (the second and third one; the other two have a completely different meaning for "magic" in mind than you used). Paul never used "mystery" as in "I'm clueless. I don't understand. It's a mystery."

In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

Quote:
The springs of heavenly peace and joy, unsealed in the soul of the teacher by the magic words of Inspiration, will become a mighty river of influence, to bless all who connect with him. {CT 171.2}

Within the past few years, doors have been thrown open as if by magic, and men and women are needed to enter these doors and begin earnest work for the salvation of souls. {CT 524.1}

[Systematic benevolence] has worked like magic. {4bSG 121.2}

The world was awakened from the slumber of ages, as from land to land were sounded the magic words, "Religious Liberty." {SR 338.4}

MM: Sister White goes on to say the following about the operation of the science of salvation:

TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

Her point is that it goes beyond human reason and understanding. Her point is not that we can't understand it at all. She was not using the phrase in the sense of "I don't know what's going on here. It's a mystery." That is, "mystery" does not mean "cluelessness." It means "unfathomably great."

She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

Quote:

It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/16/07 11:20 PM

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

TE: But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: (1) “a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again” and (2) “a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus” mean, in my mind, the exact same thing.

The “person” in (1) is, by necessity, born again. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be true. Thus, it could be stated – “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”. Similarly, (2) could be expressed in the exact same way, that is, it could be stated - “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”.

……………………

TE: During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

…………………….

TE: Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

MM: I think the SOP confirms the idea that we must doers of the word if we hope to learn more of the word. We step out in faith trusting that the truth will set us free. Fruit follows faith.

…………………….

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus?

MM: I believe it describes what it means to abide in Jesus. It’s what born again people do to continue abiding in Jesus.

………………………..

TE: In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

MM: The “magic” continues to happen so long as we continue to do those things. The list, of course, is not exhaustive. By the way, the “magic” I’m talking about is the fact we are able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. The "why" is not mysterious. It's the "how" that is unexplainable.

………………………

TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

TE: Her point is that it goes beyond human reason and understanding. Her point is not that we can't understand it at all. She was not using the phrase in the sense of "I don't know what's going on here. It's a mystery." That is, "mystery" does not mean "cluelessness." It means "unfathomably great."

MM: “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” To me this means that there are parts of it that cannot be completely explained.

…………………….

TE: She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

MM: This principle applies to everything except for those aspects of the science of salvation that we cannot explain. Just because we cannot explain it doesn’t mean we cannot experience it.

TSB 86, 87
God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. {TSB 86.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 12:22 AM

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

TE: But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: (1) “a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again” and (2) “a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus” mean, in my mind, the exact same thing.

The “person” in (1) is, by necessity, born again. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be true. Thus, it could be stated – “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”. Similarly, (2) could be expressed in the exact same way, that is, it could be stated - “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”.

The problem is that John says that one who is born again does not sin. He does not qualify that by saying "who abides in Jesus." He just simply states, flat out, a person who is born again cannot sin. He cannot sin because he is born again (that's the reason John gives). Even if he doesn't abide in Jesus, he cannot sin, so long as he is born again (this is the logical conclusion of the statement that one who is born again cannot sin). The reason he cannot sin is because he is born again, not because he abides in Jesus.

……………………

TE: During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

We haven't been considering the question of selfishness, so there's no reason to bring that up. We've been discussing the idea that before being born again one can only exhibit sinful behavior, which is what you were saying. Now if a person responds to the Holy Spirit before being born again, and this response is not sinful behavior, it should be easy for you to see that your statement is false (although I don't expect you to admit this).

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

…………………….

TE: Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

MM: I think the SOP confirms the idea that we must doers of the word if we hope to learn more of the word. We step out in faith trusting that the truth will set us free. Fruit follows faith.

That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

…………………….

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus?

MM: I believe it describes what it means to abide in Jesus. It’s what born again people do to continue abiding in Jesus.

What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

………………………..

TE: In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

MM: The “magic” continues to happen so long as we continue to do those things.

Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

The list, of course, is not exhaustive. By the way, the “magic” I’m talking about is the fact we are able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. The "why" is not mysterious. It's the "how" that is unexplainable.

(snip)

TE: She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

MM: This principle applies to everything except for those aspects of the science of salvation that we cannot explain.

The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

Just because we cannot explain it doesn’t mean we cannot experience it.

This is true. It's also true that it doesn't mean that someone else cannot explain it.

TSB 86, 87
God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. {TSB 86.4}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 03:51 AM

TE: The problem is that John says that one who is born again does not sin. He does not qualify that by saying "who abides in Jesus." He just simply states, flat out, a person who is born again cannot sin. He cannot sin because he is born again (that's the reason John gives). Even if he doesn't abide in Jesus, he cannot sin, so long as he is born again (this is the logical conclusion of the statement that one who is born again cannot sin). The reason he cannot sin is because he is born again, not because he abides in Jesus.

MM: Are you suggesting that 1 John 3:9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? It says he does not sin “for his seed remaineth in him.”

………………………

TET: We haven't been considering the question of selfishness, so there's no reason to bring that up. We've been discussing the idea that before being born again one can only exhibit sinful behavior, which is what you were saying. Now if a person responds to the Holy Spirit before being born again, and this response is not sinful behavior, it should be easy for you to see that your statement is false (although I don't expect you to admit this).

MM: My observations are not false. I said their response is “tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.” In never said it is “not sinful”.

……………………….

TE: That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

TE: Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

………………………….

TE: What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

HP 20
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. {HP 20.2}

…………………………

TE: The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

MM: This principle does not apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 07:35 AM

Quote:

E: During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them.

By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

……………………….

TE: That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

TE: Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

………………………….

TE: What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

HP 20
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. {HP 20.2}

…………………………

TE: The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

MM: This principle does not apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Your response here has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 01:25 PM

Here is something for you all to chew on.

Quote:

Our ministers need a transformation of character. They should feel that if their works are not wrought in God, if they are left to their own imperfect efforts, they are of all men the most miserable. Christ will be with every minister who, although he may not have attained to perfection of character, is seeking most earnestly to become Christlike. Such a minister will pray. He will weep between the porch and the altar, crying in soul anguish for the Lord's presence to be with him; else he cannot stand before the people, with all heaven looking upon him, and the angel's pen taking note of his words, his deportment, and his spirit. {TM 143.3}

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 01:54 PM

And more:

Quote:

Paul describes the work of God's ambassadors as that by which every man shall be presented perfect in Christ Jesus. Those who embrace the truth of heavenly origin should be refined, ennobled, sanctified through it. It will require much painstaking effort to reach God's standard of true manhood. The irregular stones hewed from the quarry must be chiseled, their rough sides must be polished. This is an age famous for surface work, for easy methods, for boasted holiness aside from the standard of character that God has erected. All short routes, all cutoff tracks, all teaching which fails to exalt the law of God as the standard of religious character, is spurious. Perfection of character is a lifelong work, unattainable by those who are not willing to strive for it in God's appointed way, by slow and toilsome steps. We cannot afford to make any mistake in this matter, but we want day by day to be growing up into Christ, our living Head. {5T 500.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 08:42 PM

Quote:

Luke
8:8 And other {seed} fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold.
8:11 The seed is the word of God.

1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change. This change is described in the following quote:

Quote:

4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. (4T 17)

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. (6 BC 1101)

TDG 186
New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. (TDG 186)

SC 60, 61
But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {SC 61.1}

TE: By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:

Quote:

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

TE: This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

MM: Okay, by faith we abide in Jesus. That’s how we abide in Jesus, but it doesn’t explain what it “means” to abide in Jesus. The “list” wasn’t prerequisites; instead, it describes what it means to abide in Jesus ad what it means to continue abiding in Jesus.

Quote:

MM: They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

TE: Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

MM: Jesus explained what it means by using the vine-branch metaphor. He also said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

TE: But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

……………………………

TE: What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

MM: Tom, there are aspects of salvation that we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 09:27 PM

Thomas, what do you think your quotes teach us about perfecting character?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/17/07 09:39 PM

TE: The text says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." It doesn't say anything one way or the other about abiding in Jesus. Verse 6 talks about abiding in Jesus, not verse 9. The reason John gives that one cannot sin is "because he has been born of God." John does not say, "because he abides in Jesus."

MM: Are you suggesting that verse 9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? Also, it says they do not sin “for {or because} his seed remaineth in him.” Doesn’t this mean “his seed” is what empowers born again believers not to sin? Here’s what the Bible says about the “seed”.

Quote:
Luke
8:8 And other {seed} fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold.
8:11 The seed is the word of God.

1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change. This change is described in the following quote:

Quote:
4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. (4T 17)

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. (6 BC 1101)

TDG 186
New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. (TDG 186)

SC 60, 61
But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {SC 61.1}

You wrote, "The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change." After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct?

Here's what I've been pointing out.
a.You say a born again person cannot sin as long as they abide in Jesus. They can choose not to abide in Jesus.
b.John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.

TE: By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:

Quote:
MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

TE: This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

MM: Okay, by faith we abide in Jesus. That’s how we abide in Jesus, but it doesn’t explain what it “means” to abide in Jesus. The “list” wasn’t prerequisites; instead, it describes what it means to abide in Jesus ad what it means to continue abiding in Jesus.

In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

Quote:
MM: They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

TE: Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

MM: Jesus explained what it means by using the vine-branch metaphor. He also said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

This is circular, right? I mentioned this. If to abide in Jesus means to keep His commandments, and sinning is breaking the commandment, then what you are saying is that as long as you keep the commandments (abide in Jesus) you can't break them (sin).

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

TE: But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

……………………………

TE: What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

MM: Tom, there are aspects of salvation that we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

What I was pointing out is that you use expressions such as "It's a mystery" (e.g. in relation to your comments about how God treated Jesus at the cross, as if He were sin, which He hates) and "no explanation is given" when what would be more accurate is "I don't know." The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

You cannot prove the statement "All things like A are B" by providing an example where A is B. You make these arguments a lot.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, what do you think your quotes teach us about perfecting character?

Did you chew on it yet or are you asking me to do it for you?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 03:02 AM

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 03:27 AM

TE: After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct? … John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.

MM: The context contains conditions, which is – abiding in Jesus. Being born again is not what empowers them to cease sinning. Abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to stop sinning. We cannot divorce the two, that is, 1) rebirth and 2) abiding in Jesus. Both are necessary for them to be like Jesus.

SC 61
"Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. {SC 61.1}

…………………………

TE: This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.

MM: It is not false. Unconverted people cannot experience “good works”. Yes, unbelievers can do good things, but such things do not count, from God’s perspective, as “good works”.

…………………………..

TE: In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

MM: By faith we abide in Jesus. By faith we do the things on the “list”. A born again believe cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. By not choosing to abide in Jesus they are choosing to commit a known sin.

…………………………

TE: You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

MM: I see no contradiction. Only born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus. This choice in not an option for people not abiding in Jesus.

………………………..

TE: The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

MM: Okay. But this principle doesn’t apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.”

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 06:51 AM

TE: After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct? … John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.

MM: The context contains conditions, which is – abiding in Jesus. Being born again is not what empowers them to cease sinning.

No it doesn't. It says, "He cannot sin because he is born of God." It doesn't says, "He cannot sin because He abides in Jesus. You keep saying the text says something it doesn't say. The text does not say "being born again is not what empowers him to cease sinning." It says, "He cannot sin." Why? "Because he is born of God."

Abiding in Jesus is what empowers them to stop sinning.
We cannot divorce the two, that is, 1) rebirth and 2) abiding in Jesus. Both are necessary for them to be like Jesus.

SC 61
"Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. {SC 61.1}

Now this is in harmony with what John wrote!

Let's get back to my point. John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can one who is born again choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

Do you see the problem? You state that a born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus. You also state, "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So a born again person who chooses not to abide in Jesus is, as you point out, "sinning." But John says that a born again person cannot sin.
…………………………

TE: This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.

MM: It is not false. Unconverted people cannot experience “good works”. Yes, unbelievers can do good things, but such things do not count, from God’s perspective, as “good works”.

You're saying a different thing here. What you've said in the past is that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. But you say that such a person, responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to confess his sins is not commiting sin, contradicting yourself.

…………………………..

TE: In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

MM: By faith we abide in Jesus. By faith we do the things on the “list”. A born again believe cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. By not choosing to abide in Jesus they are choosing to commit a known sin.

I think the way EGW put it is good. It reminds me of another statement she wrote elsewhere:

Quote:

Notice in the above quote, which you cited, she equates abiding in Christ with the love of God dwelling in us. This is in harmony with John's emphasis. What causes the love of God to dwell in us? "We love Him because He first loved us." It is the love of God, revealed on the cross, which draws us to Him. As Christ is revealed to us, we are motivated to respond to His love. This is why it is the character of God that is so important that we understand. This is why the whole purpose of Christ's earthly ministry was the revelation of God.

…………………………

TE: You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

MM: I see no contradiction. Only born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus. This choice in not an option for people not abiding in Jesus

The contradiction is that John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. You say that choosing not to abide in Jesus is sinning. So you say that one who is born of God can sin. That's the contradiction..

………………………..

TE: The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

MM: Okay. But this principle doesn’t apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.”

I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 10:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 11:50 AM

I admire your patience Tom, really do.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 04:57 PM

It's a blessing .... and a curse.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 07:28 PM

Quote:

MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

TE: I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

MM: Okay.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 07:29 PM

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

It matters to me what you think about it.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

It matters to me what you think about it.

Why?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 08:28 PM

TE: Do you see the problem? You state that a born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus. You also state, "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So a born again person who chooses not to abide in Jesus is, as you point out, "sinning." But John says that a born again person cannot sin.

MM: I do not believe born again believers can commit known sins while abiding in Jesus. The reason, as I understand it, that they cannot commit known sins while abiding in Jesus is because they are 1) born again and 2) abiding in Jesus.

I realize you disagree with this observation. You seem to think there is another reason why they cannot commit known sins. Please share with me what you believe about it. And, I would appreciate it if you would simply share what you think without finding fault with what I believe about it. Thank you.

I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why. I have made no comment regarding the observation. I've been trying to get you to see the logic first. I was going to make a point if I were successful in getting you to see the logic here, but it doesn't appear that that's going to happen, so I haven't made my point, so you can't can't make any judgements what I think about your observations, because I haven't made any, as we didn't get that far.

…………………………

TE: You're saying a different thing here. What you've said in the past is that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. But you say that such a person, responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to confess his sins is not commiting sin, contradicting yourself.

MM: Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin. However, whatever we do about it before we are born again is, in one way or another, tainted with sin and selfishness. “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Rom 14:23)

Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

…………………………..

TE: Notice in the above quote, which you cited, she equates abiding in Christ with the love of God dwelling in us. This is in harmony with John's emphasis. What causes the love of God to dwell in us? "We love Him because He first loved us." It is the love of God, revealed on the cross, which draws us to Him. As Christ is revealed to us, we are motivated to respond to His love. This is why it is the character of God that is so important that we understand. This is why the whole purpose of Christ's earthly ministry was the revelation of God.

MM: I agree.

……………………………

TE: The contradiction is that John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. You say that choosing not to abide in Jesus is sinning. So you say that one who is born of God can sin. That's the contradiction.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:

Quote:
MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

Which is what I said. "We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." So, according to you:
a)A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
b)Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which means:
c)A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d)A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.

TE: I was making an observation that you use the expression "this is a mystery" often, not to things that "we cannot explain" but to things you cannot explain.

MM: Okay.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

It matters to me what you think about it.

Why?

Because you posted it for a reason, but I don't know what that reason is. It was important to you. I like knowing important things.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/18/07 11:47 PM

TE: I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why.

Quote:

MM says:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.

b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which [to TE] means:

c) A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d) A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.

MM: We already you know what you think of my interpretation and application. So, please explain what you think 1 John 3:9 means. There are 4 parts to it:

1) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
2) for his seed remaineth in him:
3) and he cannot sin,
4) because he is born of God.

………………………

TE: Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

MM: Admitting, before we are born again, that our sinful habits are wrong is not sinning, and neither does it qualify as “good works”. Confessions mean nothing until it is forsaken and forgiven. The “devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)

GC 620, 621
Those professed Christians who come up to that last fearful conflict unprepared will, in their despair, confess their sins in words of burning anguish, while the wicked exult over their distress. These confessions are of the same character as was that of Esau or of Judas. Those who make them, lament the result of transgression, but not its guilt. They feel no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They acknowledge their sin, through fear of punishment; but, like Pharaoh of old, they would return to their defiance of Heaven should the judgments be removed. {GC 620.3}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 12:21 AM

TE: I disagree with your logic, which isn't sound. I've tried to explain why, but you're not getting it, I'm not sure why.

Quote:
MM says:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.

b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.

Which [to TE] means:

c) A born again person can sin.

But John says:

d) A born again person cannot sin.

This is a contradiction.

MM: We already you know what you think of my interpretation and application. So, please explain what you think 1 John 3:9 means. There are 4 parts to it:

1) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
2) for his seed remaineth in him:
3) and he cannot sin,
4) because he is born of God.

It appears that you disagree that:
a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

I'm curious about this, because you wrote, "Which [to TE] means ..." which implies you disagree. This seems like completely straight-forward logic to me! I'd like to resolve this issue, and get to the point I wanted to make assuming we can, and then I'll come back to explain what I think the verse means.

………………………

TE: Again, not the point I was addressing, and not relevant to the veracity of what you have said in the past. You have stated, often, that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin. Yet I succeeded in providing an example which you agree with where this is not the case. So what you said before (a person who is born again can do nothing but sin) contradicts what you say now (Admitting that our sinful habits are wrong is not a sin).

MM: Admitting, before we are born again, that our sinful habits are wrong is not sinning, and neither does it qualify as “good works”. Confessions mean nothing until it is forsaken and forgiven. The “devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)

Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 12:28 AM

TE: I'm curious about this, because you wrote, "Which [to TE] means ..." which implies you disagree. This seems like completely straight-forward logic to me! I'd like to resolve this issue, and get to the point I wanted to make assuming we can, and then I'll come back to explain what I think the verse means.

MM: Correct. I disagree. That is, I do not believe 1 John 3:9 means born again believers lose the ability to sin.

TE: Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.

MM: An unconverted person can admit that their sinful habits are wrong. I do not see it as sinful or sinless.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 12:42 AM

Quote:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

It looks like you are saying you disagree with something I wasn't asking. Do you disagree with what I am asking? Please bear in mind that I'm not discussing the text here, not discussing what John meant, just the logic present by a), b) and c).

TE: Now you're adding a different new thing. I didn't say anything about good works. I didn't say anything about selfishness. What I said was that your idea that a born again person can do nothing but sin is false, and I proved it is false by using your own example of something a person who is not born again can do which is not sin.

MM: An unconverted person can admit that their sinful habits are wrong. I do not see it as sinful or sinless.

So your statement that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is false.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 01:04 AM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 01:42 AM

Here is what the Bible says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:

1 John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2 John
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Here is what the SOP says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:

John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}

The Holy Spirit seeks to abide in each soul. If He is welcomed as an honored guest, those who receive Him will be made complete in Christ. The good work begun will be finished; the holy thoughts, heavenly affections, and Christlike actions will take the place of impure thoughts, perverse sentiments, and rebellious acts. {CH 561.1}

Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {AH 403.2}

There are only two classes in the world today, and only two classes will be recognized in the judgment--those who violate God's law and those who obey it. Christ gives the test by which to prove our loyalty or disloyalty. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments. . . . He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. . . . He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 14:15-24; 15:10. {COL 283.3}

This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained. Christ said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me." This is no casual touch, no off-and-on connection. The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. {DA 676.1}

"Abide in Me, and I in you." Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2}

The root sends its nourishment through the branch to the outermost twig. So Christ communicates the current of spiritual strength to every believer. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay. {DA 676.3}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

"My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away." While the graft is outwardly united with the vine, there may be no vital connection. Then there will be no growth or fruitfulness. So there may be an apparent connection with Christ without a real union with Him by faith. A profession of religion places men in the church, but the character and conduct show whether they are in connection with Christ. If they bear no fruit, they are false branches. Their separation from Christ involves a ruin as complete as that represented by the dead branch. "If a man abide not in Me," said Christ, "he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." {DA 676.5}

"And every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth [pruneth] it, that it may bring forth more fruit." From the chosen twelve who had followed Jesus, one as a withered branch was about to be taken away; the rest were to pass under the pruning knife of bitter trial. Jesus with solemn tenderness explained the purpose of the husbandman. The pruning will cause pain, but it is the Father who applies the knife. He works with no wanton hand or indifferent heart. There are branches trailing upon the ground; these must be cut loose from the earthly supports to which their tendrils are fastening. They are to reach heavenward, and find their support in God. The excessive foliage that draws away the life current from the fruit must be pruned off. The overgrowth must be cut out, to give room for the healing beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The husbandman prunes away the harmful growth, that the fruit may be richer and more abundant. {DA 676.6}

"Herein is My Father glorified," said Jesus, "that ye bear much fruit." God desires to manifest through you the holiness, the benevolence, the compassion, of His own character. Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers. This is the same vital union that is represented by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Receiving them, you receive the life of the Vine. You live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt. 4:4. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him. Living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, you bear fruit after the similitude of Christ. {DA 677.1}

A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian. For "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." In every clime, in every nation, our youth should cooperate with God. The only way a person can be pure is to become like-minded with God. How can we know God?--By studying His Word. . . . {SD 297.2}

It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart and the human agent is purified and cleansed. Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Is it possible to be healed, while knowingly committing sin?--No; it is genuine faith that says, I know that I have committed sin, but that Jesus has pardoned my sin; and hereafter I will resist temptation in and through His might. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation. {SD 297.3}

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth {not professeth to do} righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . . because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." Now mark where the distinction is made: "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother." "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth." {SD 297.4}

Both the Bible and the SOP teach that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. It does not mean they lose the ability to stop abiding in Jesus and resume sinning.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: västergötland

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.

In such case it probably makes no difference anyhow.

It matters to me what you think about it.

Why?

Because you posted it for a reason, but I don't know what that reason is. It was important to you. I like knowing important things.

I read it in a document that had to do with another thread here at MSDAOL and thought that it would fit in this thread. It is true that part of the reason I acctually did post it is becoures you do not agree with it, but I do not wish to get into a discussion about it. The quote is plain enough as it stands and forum history tells me such a discussion is about as usefull as emptying a lake with a tablespoon anyways.

Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 02:17 AM

TE: It looks like you are saying you disagree with something I wasn't asking. Do you disagree with what I am asking? Please bear in mind that I'm not discussing the text here, not discussing what John meant, just the logic present by a), b) and c).

MM: Okay. Divorced from any biblical context, yes, I agree.

Ok, let's consider it now with the Biblical context. Here we go!

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

Since you agree with the logic, that means that c) is true if a) and b) are true. Do you agree with a) and b)? Or do you see either one of them as not being Biblical?

TE: So your statement that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is false.

MM: Yes.

Can you think of any other things a person who is not born again can do which is not sin, other than confess sins that the Holy Spirit reveals? That is, are there any other things a person might respond to which the Holy Spirit is working on them with?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 03:34 AM

Thomas, here is the first quote you posted (the bold and underlined part is how you posted it):

Quote:

Attaining to perfection of character is a lifelong work. It involves becoming more and more mature in the fruit of the Spirit. The work does not involve gradually outgrowing our sinful habits and practices. I’m not accusing you of believing this.

We are born again complete in Christ. God implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruit and attributes of God’s character.

Like Jesus, we begin perfect (complete) and we become perfect (mature). In fact, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more like Jesus. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

Quote:

“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330)

“When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)

“Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (ML 249)

“‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

“The Holy Spirit seeks to abide in each soul. If He is welcomed as an honored guest, those who receive Him will be made complete in Christ. The good work begun will be finished; the holy thoughts, heavenly affections, and Christlike actions will take the place of impure thoughts, perverse sentiments, and rebellious acts.” {CH 561.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 04:02 AM

Quote:

a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

Since you agree with the logic, that means that c) is true if a) and b) are true. Do you agree with a) and b)? Or do you see either one of them as not being Biblical?

I would like to reword the formula:

a) Born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus

b) Born again believers sin while they are not abiding in Jesus

c) Born again believers can sin

A + B = C

I agree with this formula. I believe it is biblical.

……………………..

Quote:

Can you think of any other things a person who is not born again can do which is not sin, other than confess sins that the Holy Spirit reveals? That is, are there any other things a person might respond to which the Holy Spirit is working on them with?

Not unless we include exceptions to the rule, like the natives who showed kindness to missionaries. Of course this does not apply to those poor slaves who will not go to heaven.

Quote:

DA 638
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the

EW 276
I saw that the slave master will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 06:06 PM

Quote:
a) A born again person can choose not to abide in Jesus.
and
b) Not abiding in Jesus is sinning
means
c) A born again person can sin.

Since you agree with the logic, that means that c) is true if a) and b) are true. Do you agree with a) and b)? Or do you see either one of them as not being Biblical?

I would like to reword the formula:

a) Born again believers can choose not to abide in Jesus

b) Born again believers sin while they are not abiding in Jesus

c) Born again believers can sin

A + B = C

I agree with this formula. I believe it is biblical.

Ok. If a born again believer can sin, then why does John say a born again believer cannot sin?

Quote:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:8, 9)

Not only does John say that a born again believer cannot sin, he characterizes such a person (one who commits sin) as being of the devil. That seems to be a pretty strong way to characterize a born again believer who momentarily stubles, stops abiding in Jesus for a time, and commits a sin, don't you think?

……………………..

Quote:
Can you think of any other things a person who is not born again can do which is not sin, other than confess sins that the Holy Spirit reveals? That is, are there any other things a person might respond to which the Holy Spirit is working on them with?

Not unless we include exceptions to the rule, like the natives who showed kindness to missionaries.

But all sorts of people show kindness to missionaries before being born again, not just natives. Non-born again people are genuinely kind routinely. Does a person have to be a native for his kindness towards a missionary to be counted as an exception?

I'm also curious as to why you think this is an exception. The Bible says that Jesus is the true light that lightens every one who comes into the world. That light lightens everyone. Not all that light is constantly rejected.

Consider someone like Muhatma Ghandi. Do you think he did nothing but sin his entire life? Were his teachings of meeting violence with kindness sin?

Quote:

1.Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love.
2.There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever.
3.The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
4.Nonviolence is a weapon of the strong.
5.Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected.

These quotes appear to me to be evidence that the true Light was lightening him. Are these insights sin? Or could they be evidence that the Holy Spirit was working with him too?

(Another Ghandi quote I like: "What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea.")

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 07:25 PM

Quote:

From what I’ve read and studied about it, no, it isn’t too strong. It is the truth. We are either in Christ and free from sin or we are in Satan and full of sin. There is no neutral ground, no third option. “We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy.”

“If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

Again, obviously John is not saying that born again believers lose the ability to choose to stop abiding in Jesus and to resume sinning. The context disallows such a conclusion.

Quote:

But all sorts of people show kindness to missionaries before being born again, not just natives. Non-born again people are genuinely kind routinely. Does a person have to be a native for his kindness towards a missionary to be counted as an exception?

Kindness is no guarantee a person is saved as an exception. Satan can be kind when it serves his purpose. “He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs. . . .” (GC 589) Only God knows the true motive behind kindnesses. Whether they are lost or saved is not up to good works, but up to God. Only He can make exceptions to the rule.

Quote:

I'm also curious as to why you think this is an exception. The Bible says that Jesus is the true light that lightens every one who comes into the world. That light lightens everyone. Not all that light is constantly rejected.

Consider someone like Muhatma Ghandi. Do you think he did nothing but sin his entire life? Were his teachings of meeting violence with kindness sin? These quotes appear to me to be evidence that the true Light was lightening him. Are these insights sin? Or could they be evidence that the Holy Spirit was working with him too?

Again, only God knows the true motive. What is the fruit of Gandhi’s life and works? Does it build up the kingdom of God? Does it lead people to the foot of the cross? Or, does it make people think they can be good enough without becoming a baptized member of the Remnant Church? "By their fruits ye shall know them." How many unbelievers have joined the SDA Church because of the life and works of Gandhi?

Quote:

Not unless we include exceptions to the rule, like the natives who showed kindness to missionaries. Of course this does not apply to those poor slaves who will not go to heaven.

I noticed you left out the part about the poor slaves Sister White wrote about. Why?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 07:50 PM

I am reposting this post because it got overlooked. The following inspired insights teach unequivocally that abiding in Jesus is what empowers born again believers to "go, and sin no more". Rebirth is not what empowers them not to sin.

Abiding in Jesus is what empowers them not to sin. So long as they continue to abide in Jesus they will not and cannot commit a known sin. "A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian." A born again believer is someone who is abiding in Jesus. When they are not abiding in Jesus they are "born again" only in name, which is "worthless".

.....................

Here is what the Bible says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:

Here is what the SOP says about “abiding in” Jesus:

Quote:

John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}

The Holy Spirit seeks to abide in each soul. If He is welcomed as an honored guest, those who receive Him will be made complete in Christ. The good work begun will be finished; the holy thoughts, heavenly affections, and Christlike actions will take the place of impure thoughts, perverse sentiments, and rebellious acts. {CH 561.1}

Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {AH 403.2}

There are only two classes in the world today, and only two classes will be recognized in the judgment--those who violate God's law and those who obey it. Christ gives the test by which to prove our loyalty or disloyalty. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments. . . . He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. . . . He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 14:15-24; 15:10. {COL 283.3}

This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained. Christ said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me." This is no casual touch, no off-and-on connection. The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. {DA 676.1}

"Abide in Me, and I in you." Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2}

The root sends its nourishment through the branch to the outermost twig. So Christ communicates the current of spiritual strength to every believer. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay. {DA 676.3}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

"My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away." While the graft is outwardly united with the vine, there may be no vital connection. Then there will be no growth or fruitfulness. So there may be an apparent connection with Christ without a real union with Him by faith. A profession of religion places men in the church, but the character and conduct show whether they are in connection with Christ. If they bear no fruit, they are false branches. Their separation from Christ involves a ruin as complete as that represented by the dead branch. "If a man abide not in Me," said Christ, "he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." {DA 676.5}

"And every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth [pruneth] it, that it may bring forth more fruit." From the chosen twelve who had followed Jesus, one as a withered branch was about to be taken away; the rest were to pass under the pruning knife of bitter trial. Jesus with solemn tenderness explained the purpose of the husbandman. The pruning will cause pain, but it is the Father who applies the knife. He works with no wanton hand or indifferent heart. There are branches trailing upon the ground; these must be cut loose from the earthly supports to which their tendrils are fastening. They are to reach heavenward, and find their support in God. The excessive foliage that draws away the life current from the fruit must be pruned off. The overgrowth must be cut out, to give room for the healing beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The husbandman prunes away the harmful growth, that the fruit may be richer and more abundant. {DA 676.6}

"Herein is My Father glorified," said Jesus, "that ye bear much fruit." God desires to manifest through you the holiness, the benevolence, the compassion, of His own character. Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers. This is the same vital union that is represented by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Receiving them, you receive the life of the Vine. You live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt. 4:4. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him. Living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, you bear fruit after the similitude of Christ. {DA 677.1}

A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian. For "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." In every clime, in every nation, our youth should cooperate with God. The only way a person can be pure is to become like-minded with God. How can we know God?--By studying His Word. . . . {SD 297.2}

It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart and the human agent is purified and cleansed. Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Is it possible to be healed, while knowingly committing sin?--No; it is genuine faith that says, I know that I have committed sin, but that Jesus has pardoned my sin; and hereafter I will resist temptation in and through His might. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation. {SD 297.3}

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth {not professeth to do} righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . . because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." Now mark where the distinction is made: "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother." "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth." {SD 297.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 08:09 PM

Ok. If a born again believer can sin, then why does John say a born again believer cannot sin? Not only does John say that a born again believer cannot sin, he characterizes such a person (one who commits sin) as being of the devil. That seems to be a pretty strong way to characterize a born again believer who momentarily stubles, stops abiding in Jesus for a time, and commits a sin, don't you think?

From what I’ve read and studied about it, no, it isn’t too strong. It is the truth. We are either in Christ and free from sin or we are in Satan and full of sin. There is no neutral ground, no third option. “We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy.”

Where does it say that an active agent for Christ cannot commit a known sin?

“If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

Again, obviously John is not saying that born again believers lose the ability to choose to stop abiding in Jesus and to resume sinning. The context disallows such a conclusion.

The problem is you are misinterpreting what John means when he says that one cannot sin. The contradiction goes away once you understand "cannot sin" correctly. If you take "cannot sin" to mean "is unable to commit a sin" then you have the contradiction I've pointed out many times now. You have:

a)A born again believer can choose not to abide in Jesus.
b)Not abiding in Jesus is sinning.
c)Therefore a born again believer can sin.

So what do we conclude? We conclude that when John says a born again believer cannot sin, he doesn't mean that the believe is unable to commit a sin, but means something else, which has been my point all along. John cannot have in mind what you are suggesting, because that runs into the contradiction I've shown you.

Quote:
But all sorts of people show kindness to missionaries before being born again, not just natives. Non-born again people are genuinely kind routinely. Does a person have to be a native for his kindness towards a missionary to be counted as an exception?

Kindness is no guarantee a person is saved as an exception.

Who said it was? One of the challenging things involved in carrying on a conversation with you is you go off on so many tangents. The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

Satan can be kind when it serves his purpose. “He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs. . . .” (GC 589) Only God knows the true motive behind kindnesses. Whether they are lost or saved is not up to good works, but up to God. Only He can make exceptions to the rule.

This is not germain to the point.

Quote:
I'm also curious as to why you think this is an exception. The Bible says that Jesus is the true light that lightens every one who comes into the world. That light lightens everyone. Not all that light is constantly rejected.

Consider someone like Muhatma Ghandi. Do you think he did nothing but sin his entire life? Were his teachings of meeting violence with kindness sin? These quotes appear to me to be evidence that the true Light was lightening him. Are these insights sin? Or could they be evidence that the Holy Spirit was working with him too?

Again, only God knows the true motive. What is the fruit of Gandhi’s life and works? Does it build up the kingdom of God? Does it lead people to the foot of the cross? Or, does it make people think they can be good enough without becoming a baptized member of the Remnant Church? "By their fruits ye shall know them." How many unbelievers have joined the SDA Church because of the life and works of Gandhi?

The questions you are asking are off point. My question to you was directed to your claim that a non-born again person can do nothing but sin.

Quote:
Not unless we include exceptions to the rule, like the natives who showed kindness to missionaries. Of course this does not apply to those poor slaves who will not go to heaven.

I noticed you left out the part about the poor slaves Sister White wrote about. Why?

Because it had nothing to do with the subject. I was seeking to show you that your idea that people who aren't born again can do nothing but sin is incorrect (which you've recognized up to a point -- I'm trying to expand your horizons on this). That slaves won't be taken to heaven has nothing to do with the question as to whether people who aren't born again can do nothing but sin. Unless you can produce a quote which says something like "The slaves who won't be resurrected never did anything but sin."

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 08:16 PM

Quote:

MM: I already know what I believe about it.

And I know whom I believe.

And that is what makes all the difference.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 08:17 PM

When we speak of a person being "empowered" to overcome sin, we are dealing with the choice on the part of the believe to not sin, correct? Physical power, a person always has. There could be some defect in the brain due to drugs or genetic defect, or something like that, which would require a miracle on the part of God, but this is an exceptional case. In general, the miracle which God performs to empower us to overcome sin is the miracle of right thinking.

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. If we can think correctly, we can act correctly.

This all goes to the realm of perception. How do we see things? Do we see them like God sees them? If not, how can we come to see them like God does? As long as we see things wrong, we are destined to act wrong, thinking we are one thing when we're another, like the Pharisees, or the people who said "look at all these things we did in your name" but Jesus reponds, "I never knew you."

Being born again is the beginning of the miracle of right thinking. That's what the concept of "new birth" is about. It is a new entrance in the world; or, an entrance into a new world, the world (or kingdom) of God.

Because right-thinking is what's important, we are encouraged to spend a thoughtful hour each day comtemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God. Through Christ, God became visible and familiar to our eyes, which is the only way we could be set right and kept right with Him. What Christ did is what we should do, which is reveal God to others. We do this by beholding Him, because by beholding we become changed.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 09:30 PM

TE: Where does it say that an active agent for Christ cannot commit a known sin?

MM: Where does it say they can? No one abiding in Jesus can commit a known sin, not any more than Jesus could have committed a known while abiding in the Father. Again, this doesn’t men they are incapable of committing a known sin. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: If you take "cannot sin" to mean "is unable to commit a sin" then you have the contradiction I've pointed out many times now.

MM: I agree. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning. No born again believer, who is willingly submitted and surrendered to Jesus, the origin and source of obedience, can commit a known sin. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phil 2:13)

TE: So what do we conclude? We conclude that when John says a born again believer cannot sin, he doesn't mean that the believe is unable to commit a sin, but means something else, which has been my point all along.

MM: Again, I agree. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

MM: Again, unless we include exceptions, the answer is - No. Other than the fact they can admit that their sinful habits are wrong, which is neither sinful nor sinless.

TE: The questions you are asking are off point. My question to you was directed to your claim that a non-born again person can do nothing but sin. . . I was seeking to show you that your idea that people who aren't born again can do nothing but sin is incorrect (which you've recognized up to a point -- I'm trying to expand your horizons on this).

MM: Did Gandhi do anything that did not qualify as a sin? I don’t know. Only God knows. However, there are two scriptures that can help us discern with spiritual discernment:

Romans
14:23 For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Matthew
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 09:34 PM

JB: And I know whom I believe. And that is what makes all the difference.

MM: Amen!

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 10:03 PM

TE: In general, the miracle which God performs to empower us to overcome sin is the miracle of right thinking.

MM: I disagree. Paul wrote that knowing what is right and being willing to do it is not enough. We do not naturally possess the physical or spiritual power to do it.

Romans
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not {within myself}.

We need a power above and outside of us to do those things that we know and believe are pleasing to God. We need to abide in Jesus, to partake of the divine nature – this, not merely right thinking, is what empowers us to work out what God works in. “Divine agencies are combining with the human in reshaping the character according to the perfect pattern, and man is to work out that which God works in.” (6T 129)

DA 466
In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan’s control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. (DA 466)

TE: Because right-thinking is what's important, we are encouraged to spend a thoughtful hour each day comtemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God. Through Christ, God became visible and familiar to our eyes, which is the only way we could be set right and kept right with Him. What Christ did is what we should do, which is reveal God to others. We do this by beholding Him, because by beholding we become changed.

MM: Amen! But are there exceptions to this truth? Is this truly “the only way we could be set right and kept right with Him.” What about the Gentiles Paul wrote about in Romans 2:13-15?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 10:19 PM

Thirteen fundamental truths (excerpts from post number 84256):

1. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God.

2. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ.

3. There are only two classes in the world today, and only two classes will be recognized in the judgment - those who violate God's law and those who obey it.

4. This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained.

5. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion.

6. Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service.

7. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay.

8. When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.

9. So there may be an apparent connection with Christ without a real union with Him by faith.

10. It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers.

11. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him.

12. A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian.

13. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." God has power to keep the soul who is in Christ, when that soul is under temptation. "Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That is, every one who is a true believer is sanctified through the truth, in life and character.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/19/07 10:43 PM

Quote:

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature.

You seem to be suggesting that EGW was wrong in suggesting that this was the only way. There's actually some other way, which applies to "exceptions." Well, if there was some other way, which God could apply to exceptions, why send Christ at all? Remember that Christ risked all for our redemption. So great was the risk, it was a "struggle" for God to decide to send His Son. Why undertake this risk if God could have saved man by some other means?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/20/07 01:00 AM

Quote:

Tom wrote:

1. When we speak of a person being "empowered" to overcome sin, we are dealing with the choice on the part of the believe to not sin, correct? Physical power, a person always has.

2. Being born again is the beginning of the miracle of right thinking.

3. Your statement about not having the physical power to do what is right is interesting. Do you think God does something to us physically like what happens to Popeye when he eats spinach? How do we get supernaturally physically stronger? How does being physically stronger help us to do right? Was Samson more able to do right than others because of his physical strength?

4. So what do you think, in general, the miracle which God performs to empower to overcome sin is?

In general? Divine agencies! And, in particular, the Holy Spirit. In other words, the “miracle which God performs to empower to overcome sin” is an ongoing miracle in which divine agents empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to cease sinning and to mature in the fruits of Spirit. We cannot employ them without their aid. They are "lifeless".

The following quotes describe it nicely:

6T 129
Divine agencies are combining with the human in reshaping the character according to the perfect pattern, and man is to work out that which God works in. (6T 129)

DA 466
The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan’s control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. (DA 466)

SC 18
There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. (SC 18)

COL 98
New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up; the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. (COL 98)

ST 10-13-1898
New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The heart is cleansed from all impurity, and man is fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God. (ST 10-13-1898)

Quote:

Tom wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that EGW was wrong in suggesting that this was the only way. There's actually some other way, which applies to "exceptions." Well, if there was some other way, which God could apply to exceptions, why send Christ at all? Remember that Christ risked all for our redemption. So great was the risk, it was a "struggle" for God to decide to send His Son. Why undertake this risk if God could have saved man by some other means?

Here’s the quote:

Quote:

Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

She is talking about Jesus fixing what Satan, through the nation of Israel, had broken. They misrepresented the character of God. The only way Jesus could fix it was to become one of us.

She also addresses your interpretation and application of Jesus risking failure. “Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work.”

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/20/07 01:03 AM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/20/07 06:54 PM

Sister White is very clear about it:

Quote:

“Daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives.” (WM 315)

“The Spirit of God, with its vivifying power, must be in every human agent, that every spiritual muscle and sinew may be in exercise. Without the Holy Spirit, without the breath of God, there is torpidity of conscience, loss of spiritual life. Many who are without spiritual life have their names on the church records, but they are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. They may be joined to the church, but they are not united to the Lord. They may be diligent in the performance of a certain set of duties, and may be regarded as living men; but many are among those who have ‘a name that thou livest, and art dead.’

“Unless there is genuine conversion of the soul to God; unless the vital breath of God quickens the soul to spiritual life; unless the professors of truth are actuated by heaven-born principle, they are not born of the incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth forever. Unless they trust in the righteousness of Christ as their only security; unless they copy His character, labor in His spirit, they are naked, they have not on the robe of His righteousness. The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (4BC 1166)

“Will those before whom this letter shall come, consider their own individual cases, pass judgment upon no one else, but consider their own character in the light of God’s law?

“Has your character been transformed? Has darkness been exchanged for light, the love of sin for the love of purity and holiness? Have you been converted, who are engaged in teaching the truth to others? Has there been in you a thorough, radical change? Have you woven Christ into your character? You need not be in uncertainty in this matter. Has the Sun of Righteousness risen and been shining in your soul? If so, you know it; and if you do not know whether you are converted or not, never preach another discourse from the pulpit until you do. How can you lead souls to the fountain of life of which you have not drunk yourself? Are you a sham, or are you really a son of God? Are you serving God, or are you serving idols? Are you transformed by the Spirit of God, or are you yet dead in your trespasses and sins? To be sons of God means more than many dream of, because they have not been converted. Men are weighed in the balance and found wanting when they are living in the practice of any known sin. It is the privilege of every son of God to be a true Christian moment by moment; then he has all heaven enlisted on his side. He has Christ abiding in his heart by faith.

“A soul united with Christ, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, in accepting and living by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God will war against all transgression and every approach of sin. He becomes every day more like a bright and shining light, and more victorious. He goes on from strength to strength, not from weakness to weakness.

“Let no one deceive his own soul in this matter. If you harbor pride, self-esteem, a love for the supremacy, vainglory, unholy ambition, murmuring, discontent, bitterness, evil speaking, lying, deception, slandering, you have not Christ abiding in your heart, and the evidence shows that you have the mind and character of Satan, not of Jesus Christ, who was meek and lowly of heart. You must have a Christian character that will stand. You may have good intentions, good impulses, can speak the truth understandingly, but you are not fit for the kingdom of heaven. Your character has in it base material, which destroys the value of the gold. You have not reached the standard. The impress of the divine is not upon you. The furnace fires would consume you, because you are worthless, counterfeit gold.

“There must be thorough conversions among those who claim to believe the truth, or they will fall in the day of trial. God’s people must reach a high standard. They must be a holy nation, a peculiar people, a chosen generation – zealous of good works.” (TM 440, 441)

Not every Christian is a converted Christian. What passes for good works is, in reality, nothing less than self-righteous acts of self-serving benevolence. It is worthless, counterfeit gold. "The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/21/07 07:50 PM

MM, you really didn't address my question at all, even thought you quoted a lot of EGW statements. My question to you was what you think the miracle which God performs in us is, that allows us to overcome sin. I maintain that what God does is to give us light, and enable us to see that light, so that we can make intelligent choices in regards to truth, specifically in regards to His character and the nature of His kingdom.

I was going to quote something from Ellen White, but it looks like the EGW servers are down. I wish they hadn't taken down the old site. It was faster and didn't crash like the new one.

Anyway, she wrote of how it's Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character, and to confuse us as to what the real issues of the Great Controversy are. God enables us to see the true issues, and His true character. The divine power He gives us in overcoming sin is principally in regards to our mind, to right thinking.

Now you disagreed with this idea I shared, but haven't been clear as to what your alternative is.

Regarding the ST 1/20/90 quote, quoting more of it just made my point all the more clear. It says exactly what I've been saying.

Regarding your statement that when she said that Christ "could not fail" that she in contradicting her idea that she could ("remember Christ risked all; God sent His Son at the failure of eternal loss; for our sake He took the risk of failure and eternal loss"), you are wrong. She is not speaking of that subject at all. You are taking her words shamefully out of context. She is saying that Christ could not fail to present the character of God (that's the context), not that there was no risk in undertaking His ministry.

Do you really think she would write in one spot that Christ came at a "fearful risk," and then in another spot contradict her own idea?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/21/07 08:17 PM

TE: Where does it say that an active agent for Christ cannot commit a known sin?

MM: Where does it say they can?

All throughout Scripture. Moses is one example. Dozens upon dozens more could be given.

No one abiding in Jesus can commit a known sin, not any more than Jesus could have committed a known while abiding in the Father. Again, this doesn’t men they are incapable of committing a known sin. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

This isn't saying anything useful. You're just saying that before one can commit a known sin, one must choose to stop choosing not to commit a known sin.

TE: If you take "cannot sin" to mean "is unable to commit a sin" then you have the contradiction I've pointed out many times now.

MM: I agree.

Good! So if "cannot sin" does not mean "is unable to commit a sin," what does it mean? (this is in 1 John 1:9)

What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

I know this is your theory, but where is there any evidence that John has any of this in mind? John's whole epistle is speaking of love; the love of God, love for fellow man, God's love manifest in Christ. Your theory doesn't make mention of these things, yet this is all John could talk about. How can your theory explain John's ideas when you don't mention the things which were so important to him?

No born again believer, who is willingly submitted and surrendered to Jesus, the origin and source of obedience, can commit a known sin. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phil 2:13)

This is just a tautology. It's just saying as long as you choose not to commit a known sin, you cannot choose to commit a known sin.

TE: So what do we conclude? We conclude that when John says a born again believer cannot sin, he doesn't mean that the believe is unable to commit a sin, but means something else, which has been my point all along.

MM: Again, I agree. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

This is not a responsive answer. The verse says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I have pointed out that this does not mean "is unable to commit a sin" (which is what you were saying before). It must mean something else. You have proposed something which is impossible. There is no way that:

Quote:

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can mean:

Quote:

they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

MM: Again, unless we include exceptions, the answer is - No.

Brilliant, Mike. Think about what you're saying here. What are the exceptions? Exceptions are the instances where one who is not born again is not sinning. So you are saying that the answer to the question, "Can a person who is not born again do anything but sin" is "No, if one excludes all the times when they are not sinning."

Other than the fact they can admit that their sinful habits are wrong, which is neither sinful nor sinless.

Whether they were "sinful" or "sinless" was not the question under consideration. Whether they were sinning was the question. But you've already agreed that they aren't, so there's no need to continue answering this.

TE: The questions you are asking are off point. My question to you was directed to your claim that a non-born again person can do nothing but sin. . . I was seeking to show you that your idea that people who aren't born again can do nothing but sin is incorrect (which you've recognized up to a point -- I'm trying to expand your horizons on this).

MM: Did Gandhi do anything that did not qualify as a sin? I don’t know. Only God knows. However, there are two scriptures that can help us discern with spiritual discernment:

Romans
14:23 For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Matthew
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Ok, what were Ghandi's fruits? Were they such that you would judge him as never having done anything but sin his whole life? Do you not see any light in the quotes I provided from him? If you do, where do you think he got his insights from, if not God? When Ghandi was recognizing and teaching truth which comes from God, was he sinning?

We are told that Jesus is the true light that lightens everyone who comes into the world, doesn't it follow that sometimes people follow the light?

You are being black and white here where there is reason to do so. Inspiration does not teach that before being born again a person can do nothing but sin. In fact, the quotes you've presented from the SOP bring out the reverse. They point out how people have responded to the Holy Spirit before being converted.

I've given you several examples already to see how the Holy Spirit works with people who are not converted, and how these people can respond. You've accepted the example of when the unconverted recognize sinful habits they have. So if there's already an "exception" here, why would you limit the exception to just this one area? Why can't there be other "exceptions"? There's nothing in inspiration that speaks of the exception you accept; it's just logic which forced you to recognize it.

Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/21/07 08:20 PM

Quote:

I don't know what this is in reference to. I doubt anyone disputes this. Why are you mentioning it?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/30/07 07:06 PM

TE: My question to you was what you think the miracle which God performs in us is, that allows us to overcome sin.

MM: The Holy Spirit.

TE: The divine power He gives us in overcoming sin is principally in regards to our mind, to right thinking.

MM: The way I see it, right thinking is not the miracle that empowers us to live in accordance with right thinking.

TE: Do you really think she would write in one spot that Christ came at a "fearful risk," and then in another spot contradict her own idea?

MM: No. I believe the two statements compliment one another. Yes, hypothetically Jesus could have sinned and failed to represent the character of God. But it didn’t happen. The Father knew Jesus would succeed. There was no doubt in His mind.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/30/07 07:35 PM

TE: My question to you was what you think the miracle which God performs in us is, that allows us to overcome sin.

MM: The Holy Spirit.

Meaning what?

TE: The divine power He gives us in overcoming sin is principally in regards to our mind, to right thinking.

MM: The way I see it, right thinking is not the miracle that empowers us to live in accordance with right thinking.

Right thinking would be what allows one to make correct decisions. All actions, whether expressed in thought, word, or deed, flow from correct decisions.

TE: Do you really think she would write in one spot that Christ came at a "fearful risk," and then in another spot contradict her own idea?

MM: No. I believe the two statements compliment one another. Yes, hypothetically Jesus could have sinned and failed to represent the character of God. But it didn’t happen. The Father knew Jesus would succeed. There was no doubt in His mind.

So there was no risk, right? "No doubt" = "no risk." This would contradict the idea that there was risk, right? That is, "no doubt" == no risk, which contradicts risk.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/30/07 08:22 PM

Quote:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Can mean:

“They must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.”

MM: “Which is what you were saying before.” No. I believe they do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. Being “unable” to sin is totally different. It is obvious that John did not mean people lose the ability to sin after they are born again or while abiding in Jesus. Therefore, what I posted about it is true. BTW, you have yet to explain what you think it means.

…………………….

TE: The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

MM: The Bible says “all our righteousnesses are filthy rags”. It is even more true of all our unrighteousnesses, right? What is your point? Are you arguing that unconverted people can do things that are not filthy rags in the sight of God?

………………..

TE: When Ghandi was recognizing and teaching truth which comes from God, was he sinning?

MM: He deliberately rejected Jesus as his personal Saviour. Therefore, he was sinning. He taught people to look within themselves for the power to be good. His influence leads people to believe they can be good without accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. Which is Satan’s argument.

TE: Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

MM: Just because he did not commit physical adultery it does not mean he did not sin. His motive for not doing it is tainted with sin. It doesn’t matter that he was initially influenced by the Holy Spirit. He chose not to commit physical adultery based on sinful motives and reasons, which, in turn, makes his behavior sinful, even though it did not involve adultery. That’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

……………….

MM: Not every Christian is a converted Christian. What passes for good works is, in reality, nothing less than self-righteous acts of self-serving benevolence. It is worthless, counterfeit gold. "The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure."

TE: I don't know what this is in reference to. I doubt anyone disputes this. Why are you mentioning it?

MM: You seem to be insisting that unconverted people can be good without Jesus. But in reality not even “half baked” Christians can be good. It is even more true of unconverted people.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/30/07 08:32 PM

TE: Meaning what?

MM: The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is “the miracle which God performs in us … that allows [empowers] us to overcome sin” and to imitate the example of Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: Right thinking would be what allows one to make correct decisions. All actions, whether expressed in thought, word, or deed, flow from correct decisions.

MM: Neither right thinking nor right decision making is what empowers us to think right, to speak right, or to act right. The Holy Spirit is the source of power - not right thinking or right decision making.

TE: So there was no risk, right? "No doubt" = "no risk." This would contradict the idea that there was risk, right? That is, "no doubt" = no risk, which contradicts risk.

MM: The “risk” was real. Jesus could have failed. But He didn’t. The Father knew Jesus would succeed. There was never a moment of doubt in His mind.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/30/07 10:15 PM

TE: Where does it say that an active agent for Christ cannot commit a known sin?

MM: Where does it say they can?

TE: All throughout Scripture. Moses is one example. Dozens upon dozens more could be given.

MM: Moses was not actively abiding in Jesus when he sinned. No one can commit a known sin while actively abiding in Jesus.

You just arguing in a circle. Also you changed your response from "active agent" to "actively abiding in Jesus."

………………………….

MM: No one abiding in Jesus can commit a known sin, not any more than Jesus could have committed a known while abiding in the Father. Again, this doesn’t men they are incapable of committing a known sin. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: This isn't saying anything useful. You're just saying that before one can commit a known sin, one must choose to stop choosing not to commit a known sin.

MM: No. There is a huge difference between what I posted and your response to it. You replaced “they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus” with “one must choose to stop choosing not to commit a known sin.” No one can resist sinning by focusing on not sinning. We can only do it by focusing on abiding in Jesus

So the important thing is focussing on abiding in Jesus? A person focussing on abiding in Jesus cannot sin, correct? So before a person can commit a known sin, he much choose to stop focussing on abiding in Jesus.

…………………..

TE: Good! So if "cannot sin" does not mean "is unable to commit a sin," what does it mean? (this is in 1 John 1:9)

MM: I believe the context makes it clear that born again believers who are abiding in Jesus do not and cannot commit a known sin by virtue of the fact they are abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature.

Doesn't answer the question. What does "cannot sin" mean? It can't mean "unable to commit a sin," so it must mean something else. What does it mean? (just the two word phrase "cannot sin").

………………………..

TE: So what do we conclude? We conclude that when John says a born again believer cannot sin, he doesn't mean that the believe is unable to commit a sin, but means something else, which has been my point all along.

MM: Again, I agree. What it does mean, though, is that they must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.

TE: The verse says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I have pointed out that this does not mean "is unable to commit a sin" (which is what you were saying before). It must mean something else. You have proposed something which is impossible. There is no way that:

Quote:
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Can mean:

“They must first neglect to choose to abide in Jesus, and then they will be able to resume sinning.”

MM: “Which is what you were saying before.” No. I believe they do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. Being “unable” to sin is totally different.

How is "cannot" different than "unable"? "Can" means "to be able". "Cannot" means "to not be able"

It is obvious that John did not mean people lose the ability to sin after they are born again or while abiding in Jesus. Therefore, what I posted about it is true. BTW, you have yet to explain what you think it means.

It's been a long time now, because of your hiatus, but I think I wanted to know what "cannot sin" means before answering.

…………………….

TE: The question was not who is saved but if a person who is not born again can do anything other than sin.

MM: The Bible says “all our righteousnesses are filthy rags”. It is even more true of all our unrighteousnesses, right? What is your point? Are you arguing that unconverted people can do things that are not filthy rags in the sight of God?

No, my point is what I said. I gave examples. You agree that an unbeliever responding to the Holy Spirit who reveals sin to him is not sinning by so responding, so that's sufficient to show that your statement that an unbeliever can do nothing but sin is false.

………………..

TE: When Ghandi was recognizing and teaching truth which comes from God, was he sinning?

MM: He deliberately rejected Jesus as his personal Saviour. Therefore, he was sinning. He taught people to look within themselves for the power to be good. His influence leads people to believe they can be good without accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. Which is Satan’s argument.

TE: Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

MM: Just because he did not commit physical adultery it does not mean he did not sin. His motive for not doing it is tainted with sin. It doesn’t matter that he was initially influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Why would this not matter? The Holy Spirit is striving with the person, convincing him not to sin. Satan is tempting him to sin. He chooses to respond to the Holy Spirit. How can this be committing sin? Sin is transgression of the law. The person is tempted to transgress. He chooses not to transgress. That's not sin.

He chose not to commit physical adultery based on sinful motives and reasons, which, in turn, makes his behavior sinful, even though it did not involve adultery. That’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

……………….

MM: Not every Christian is a converted Christian. What passes for good works is, in reality, nothing less than self-righteous acts of self-serving benevolence. It is worthless, counterfeit gold. "The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure."

TE: I don't know what this is in reference to. I doubt anyone disputes this. Why are you mentioning it?

MM: You seem to be insisting that unconverted people can be good without Jesus. But in reality not even “half baked” Christians can be good. It is even more true of unconverted people.

I think your idea that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin is wrong, very wrong. I'm just arguing against this idea.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 01:06 AM

A short answer as to what I think the text means. I think John is saying that a person who loves God will take care of his fellow. How can one love God whom he has not seen if he does not love his neighbor, whom he has seen? If a person is of Christ, he will take care of those in need. This seems to be John's overriding concern throughout the epistle.

In the passage in question, John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I understand this to mean that the characteristic of a born-again person is that he will take care of fellow. If we love God, we will keep His commandment, and His commandment is that we love one another.

This seems to be in harmony with John's teaching throughout his epistle.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 03:11 AM

I'll make a comment on 'cannot sin'. It refers to a man not intentionally doing wrong. The man does not know right and wrong perfectly - none of us do - but he maintains his integrity in doing what he understands to be right. On the one hand, like Job, he shuns evil, and on the other, also like Job, he fulfills his duty to his neighbour, to the stranger, the widow and the orphan.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 05:09 AM

TE: . . . you changed your response from "active agent" to "actively abiding in Jesus."

MM: I see no difference.

TE: So the important thing is focussing on abiding in Jesus? A person focussing on abiding in Jesus cannot sin, correct? So before a person can commit a known sin, he much choose to stop focussing on abiding in Jesus.

MM: Abiding in Jesus requires focus. It’s akin to “keeping your eyes on Jesus”. It is abiding in Jesus that makes it possible for born again believers to resist sin, self, and Satan., and to mature in the fruits of Spirit, to imitate the example of Jesus.

TE: What does "cannot sin" mean? It can't mean "unable to commit a sin," so it must mean something else. What does it mean? (just the two word phrase "cannot sin").

MM: Why do you insist on divorcing it from the context? The words “cannot sin” mean “cannot sin”. But it is conditional.

TE: How is "cannot" different than "unable"? "Can" means "to be able". "Cannot" means "to not be able"

MM: Good point. Actually, I prefer the word “incapable”. “Cannot sin” does not mean “incapable” of sinning.

TE: You agree that an unbeliever responding to the Holy Spirit who reveals sin to him is not sinning by so responding, so that's sufficient to show that your statement that an unbeliever can do nothing but sin is false.

MM: I disagree. Admitting that certain things are sinful is neither sinning nor not sinning. It doesn’t proves anything to me. You seem to be suggesting that “all our righteousnesses are filthy rags” doesn’t mean “all our righteousnesses are filthy”.

…………………..

MM: In the following exchange you overlooked Gandhi’s rejection of Jesus and his satanic argument. Do you still believe his life and teachings are counted as righteousness in the eyes of God?

Quote:

TE: When Ghandi was recognizing and teaching truth which comes from God, was he sinning?

MM: He deliberately rejected Jesus as his personal Saviour. Therefore, he was sinning. He taught people to look within themselves for the power to be good. His influence leads people to believe they can be good without accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. Which is Satan’s argument.

TE: Say an unconverted person is married, and is tempted to commit adultery. The Holy Spirit works with him, convicting him not to pursue an illicit relationship. Even though he is strongly tempted to do pursue the wrong relationship, he responds to the Holy Spirit, and refuses the illicit relationship. Is this sin?

MM: Just because he did not commit physical adultery it does not mean he did not sin. His motive for not doing it is tainted with sin. It doesn’t matter that he was initially influenced by the Holy Spirit. He chose not to commit physical adultery based on sinful motives and reasons, which, in turn, makes his behavior sinful, even though it did not involve adultery. That’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

TE: Why would this not matter? The Holy Spirit is striving with the person, convincing him not to sin. Satan is tempting him to sin. He chooses to respond to the Holy Spirit. How can this be committing sin? Sin is transgression of the law. The person is tempted to transgress. He chooses not to transgress. That's not sin.

MM: The Holy Spirit was not only influencing him not to commit physical adultery, He was also influencing him not to commit adultery in his heart and mind. The motives and reasons why he didn’t commit physical adultery are sinful. Again, that’s the whole premise behind Paul’s argument: “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

TE: In the passage in question, John says that one who is born of God cannot sin. I understand this to mean that the characteristic of a born-again person is that he will take care of fellow. If we love God, we will keep His commandment, and His commandment is that we love one another.

MM: Sounds good to me. Thank you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 05:32 AM

Mark, thanx for sharing. What do you think the following passages mean? John seems to be comparing born again believers to Jesus. Peter seems to agree. Do you agree with this observation?

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 08:08 AM

1.Regarding Moses, he was an active agent for Christ for 40 years. He didn't stop being so because he made a mistake.

2.Regarding focusing, or whatever, it still comes down to the same thing. If one is not sinning, before one can sin one must choose to quit not sinning and start sinning. That's basically what you're saying. It's true, but not very helpful.

So what is helpful? What's helpful is to recognize what our problem is. Our problem is not one of sinful behavior (that's a symptom) but one of not knowing and trusting God, and of being damaged by the results of this. We need to be healed, to become closer to God, so see things as He does, to love and trust Him. This is done by beholding God in Jesus Christ.

3."Incapable" means "not able," so it's no improvement.

4.The condition of "cannot sin" is "born of God."

Quote:

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

This is the only place where John speaks of what the condition of "cannot sin" is. To say "cannot sin" means "cannot sin" is, obviously, not at all helpful. Please try defining "cannot sin" is some way which is not simply repeating the same two words. What does "cannot sin" mean?

5.You stated previously that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. You also stated that such a person is not sinning when responding to the Holy Spirit's conviction of a sin. You may disagree that this is a contradiction, but it doesn't matter; it is. A = ~A is a contradiction.

6.Your conclusion about the premise of Paul's argument is off base. Paul is not speaking at all of what you are suggesting. Take a look at the context.

What of the ones mentioned here:

Quote:

Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. {DA 638.2}

Do these do nothing but sin?

Either someone is not sinning at all, or doing nothing but sinning. This seems to be how you see things. Is that right?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 04:15 PM

Quote:

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 07:37 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 07:43 PM

Thank you, John. Can I assume that you agree "righteousness by faith" and being righteous "even as he is righteous" mean the same thing? Namely, that it means born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus, will grow in grace and mature in the fruits of Spirit in the same way Jesus did? that the origin of their righteousness is the same as was Jesus' righteousness?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 08:50 PM

1. Moses was not actively abiding in Jesus when He took his eyes off Jesus and sinned. Being an active agent of Jesus means dying daily to self, moment by moment. We stop being an active agent the instant we take our eyes off Jesus. Repentance, of course, restores the relationship we severed.

This is just a tautology. You're simply saying that a person can't continue not sinning unless he chooses to sin. Moses was as active an agent for Christ as there's ever been. He didn't go through any steps of not focusing on Jesus, or stopping to abide in Him. He lost his temper. He wasn't perfect. Things like that happen. According to the SOP, his repentance was immediate and deep, showing that he was walking (abiding, if you prefer) in Christ.

2. Amen! The focus is Jesus, not starting or stopping sinning. The difference is not mere semantics. To be born again and to abide in Jesus means everything.

If the focus is Jesus, why not talk about Him?

3. Okay, then, let me spell it out. “Cannot sin” does not mean born again believers lose the ability or freedom to sin. Even after the great controversy is ended, throughout eternity, we will possess the ability and freedom to sin. The good news is we will never exercise our freedom and ability to sin.

Then using this definition, John said that one who is born of God will not excercise his freedom and ability to sin. This is true as a general statement, as a characteristic of one who is born again. But it's not a fixed law, saying that no one who is born again never sins. And John doesn't say anything whatsoever about abiding in Jesus being a condition. The only condition John gives is being born again.

4. Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

This sentence doesn't make sense. I'll explain why. Let A be "born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." Let B be "Rebirth is not the solitary condition that makes it possible to not sin." You are saying that A implies B. Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

One of the challenges of communicating with you is that you frequently make these logically faulty assertions, and even when they are pointed out to you, you do not acknowledge them, either because you cannot understand the logical error, or you do see it, but choose not to acknowledge it.

Born again believers are always free to sin. Thus, being born again is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

You could apply this "logic" (or, more accurately, lack of logic) to any condition, for example, abiding in Jesus. "Born again believers who abide in Jesus are always free to sin. Thus, being born again and abiding in Jesus is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

Yes, rebirth is necessary; otherwise, they would be unable to take advantage of whatever it is that empowers them to cease sinning and to mature in the fruits of Spirit, which, by the way, includes loving God and man.

5. I never said a person who admits, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, that certain behaviors are sinful is not sinning. At least that's not what I meant. Such admissions are neither sinful nor sinless.

You did say so, which is another challenging thing. It's like pulling teeth to get you to admit to any point, and when you finally do, you take it back.

6. Paul argued that whatever is done through self, apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, is sin. In other words, it is, in one way or another, tainted with sinful motives. If it does not honor and glorify God it is “filthy rags” – no matter how good it looks to us. “For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.” (Rom 14:18)

This doesn't have any context. That is, I don't know why you're making this point.

7. The “heathen” Sister White wrote about in DA 638 and the “Gentiles” Paul wrote about in Romans 2:13-15 are examples of the Holy Spirit taking matters into His own hands.

As opposed to when someone else takes things into the Holy Spirit's hands?

Where there is no one preaching the gospel, the Holy Spirit will preach it Himself.

It's always the Holy Spirit who preaches the Gospel.

Such people are born again. They are partaking of the divine nature, which is why and how they are able to behave like Jesus. Thus, their unique situation does not prove unconverted people can be like Jesus without abiding in Him.

Another challenge is that you often change the topic. It is never been suggested that unconverted people can be like Jesus without abiding in Him. This isn't what we were talking about.

8. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is everything. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Also not the topic. You should know from our previous conversations thoughout the years that I agree that faith leads to victory over sin. There's no need to argue that point. It's only your particular theory that I have problems with.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 01/31/07 11:59 PM

TE: You're simply saying that a person can't continue not sinning unless he chooses to sin.

MM: I have been trying to say the opposite. I have been stressing that “’a person can't continue not sinning” if they take their eyes off Jesus, if they stop abiding in Jesus.

TE: [Moses] didn't go through any steps of not focusing on Jesus, or stopping to abide in Him. He lost his temper. He wasn't perfect. Things like that happen. According to the SOP, his repentance was immediate and deep, showing that he was walking (abiding, if you prefer) in Christ.

MM: If Moses had kept his eyes on Jesus he would not have sinned. He didn’t sin because he was faulty or imperfect. He sinned because he took his eyes off Jesus. He was not abiding in Jesus when he sinned.

Quote:

But when he took it upon himself to accuse them, he grieved the Spirit of God and wrought only harm to the people. {PP 417.3}

More than this, Moses and Aaron had assumed power that belongs only to God. . . . Wearied with the continual murmuring and rebellion of the people, Moses had lost sight of his Almighty Helper, and without the divine strength he had been left to mar his record by an exhibition of human weakness. {PP 418.2}

It was by looking to themselves, appealing to their own sympathies, that they unconsciously fell into sin, and failed to set before the people their great guilt before God. {PP 418.3}

But they were not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment. {PP 419.1}

TE: . . . John said that one who is born of God will not excercise his freedom and ability to sin. This is true as a general statement, as a characteristic of one who is born again. But it's not a fixed law, saying that no one who is born again never sins. And John doesn't say anything whatsoever about abiding in Jesus being a condition. The only condition John gives is being born again.

MM: I disagree. John did not say a born again believer “will not exercise his freedom and ability to sin”. He said “whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” Only born again believers can abide in Jesus. Thus, only born again believers who abide in Jesus are empowered not to sin.

TE: Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I disagree. Neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

TE: You could apply this "logic" (or, more accurately, lack of logic) to any condition, for example, abiding in Jesus. "Born again believers who abide in Jesus are always free to sin. Thus, being born again and abiding in Jesus is not the reason why they “cannot sin”.

MM: I disagree. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is precisely what empowers people with the ability to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/01/07 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Yes, the origin and the nature of their righteousness is the same as is Jesus' righteousness.

It is the nature of the righteousness that is misunderstood, and hence there is sin and condemnation.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/01/07 02:29 AM

1.MM, you have a non-falsifiable theory, in the way you have defined things. There's no point in discussing a non-falsifiable theory. I should have just said this a long time ago.

2.Here's the quote from John regarding "cannot sin"

Quote:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.(1 John 3:9)

You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

3.TE: Your proof rests upon the following point "they do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." This implies that there is some condition which allows one to not sin, which has the property that it leads one lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I disagree. Neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

You missed the point. Here's what you wrote:

Quote:

Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

Can you not see that this doesn't make sense? As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin. One could just as easily make the following statement:

Quote:

Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true).

Do you not understand this?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/01/07 06:05 PM

JB: Yes, the origin and the nature of their righteousness is the same as is Jesus' righteousness.

MM: Amen!

JB: It is the nature of the righteousness that is misunderstood, and hence there is sin and condemnation.

MM: How does misunderstanding it lead to sin and condemnation?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/01/07 06:53 PM

TE: You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

MM: I am not comfortable with divorcing verse 9 from its immediate context, especially from verse 6. Also, I disagree with the idea that “right thinking” is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin. Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.

TE: As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

TE: Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I’m talking about the origin and source of power that enables born again believer to not sin. Being born again is not enough. It’s only part of the equation. They must also abide in Jesus in the same way He abode in the Father, which includes everything. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to use their faculties of mind and body to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: One could just as easily make the following statement: Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true)

MM: I agree with you that - “rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin” - is not true. If born again believers continually abide in Jesus, in the same way Jesus abode in the Father, they, like Jesus, do not and cannot commit a known sin. In fact, they are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. Apart from abiding in Jesus, all we can do is sin.

The following quotes make it clear that abiding in Jesus, like Jesus abode in the Father, is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit:

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

FW 71
Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/02/07 12:32 AM

TE: You're free to disagree, but disagreeing won't change the fact that the "cannot sin" is not qualified by anything other than "because he is born of God."

MM: I am not comfortable with divorcing verse 9 from its immediate context, especially from verse 6. Also, I disagree with the idea that “right thinking” is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin. Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.

The origin and source of everything is God. But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions. That impacts what we say and do, the fabric of our character. We must learn to perceive things the way Jesus does, and to think about things the way that He does.

The very expression "born again" or "conversion" has in mind the idea that before we used to think about (or perceive) things one way, and now we perceive and think about them another way.

TE: As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

TE: Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I’m talking about the origin and source of power that enables born again believer to not sin. Being born again is not enough. It’s only part of the equation. They must also abide in Jesus in the same way He abode in the Father, which includes everything. Being born again and abiding in Jesus is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to use their faculties of mind and body to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: One could just as easily make the following statement: Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true)

MM: I agree with you that - “rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin” - is not true. If born again believers continually abide in Jesus, in the same way Jesus abode in the Father, they, like Jesus, do not and cannot commit a known sin. In fact, they are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. Apart from abiding in Jesus, all we can do is sin.

Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't. You're not talking about what I pointed out. Your logic was faulty. I explained why. You're not even addressing the argument I made. All I can think about suggesting is to re-read the argument, and see if you can understand the points I made, and if so you can address that and we could discuss it. (However, I think if you were capable of doing this, you would have recognized right off that your argument didn't make sense to start with, so I'm probably being stupid to even bring this up).

The following quotes make it clear that abiding in Jesus, like Jesus abode in the Father, is the origin and source of power that enables born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit:

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

FW 71
Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/02/07 03:53 AM

Quote:

1) As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin. 2) Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

One could just as easily make the following statement: 3) Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin. This argument is just as valid as the one you made (valid, not true; neither argument is true)

MM: Okay, let’s try this again:

1. As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

2. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: It requires rebirth and abiding in Jesus to not sin. Thus, rebirth alone is not enough. It takes both. I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?

3. Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

MM: Why not? Being born again and abiding in Jesus includes everything. What else is needed to empower born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 01:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Sin entered by taking amiss the nature of God's righteousness (God's character). Sin is perpetuated by holding the nature of God's righteousness amiss.

I do not mean misunderstanding in the benign sense, as in when one is in the process of learning; but misunderstanding in the sense of holding the wrong view of the nature of God's righteousness; having a misconstrued nature of God's righteousness.

Since God's righteousness has its foundation/nature in "faith". Holding the righteousness of God amiss would be understanding his righteousness amiss of faith - which is the nature of sin.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 05:02 AM

John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness? And, how do people hold it amiss? How do they hold it aright?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 08:29 AM

TE: The origin and source of everything is God.

MM: Amen! In light of this discussion, I believe abiding in Jesus is what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: But all of our decisions are made on the basis of thought. If we can't think correctly, we can't make right decisions.

MM: Hopefully we can agree that “right thinking” is not what empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of Spirit.

As I said, God is the origin and source of everything. Therefore, of course, God empowers born again believers to think correctly, just as He empowers every created thing to do whatever it does.

The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

TE: Are you really not understanding what I'm saying? It sounds like you aren't.

(snip)

You haven't understood the argument. I'm too tired to repeat it right now, but it was clearly presented. For now I can ask you to re-read it, and please pay attention to the logical points I was making. You're focusing too much on the content and not enough upon the logic. An argument can be true, but not logical. For example, the sky is blue, therefore Friday is the day before Saturday. It's true that Friday comes before Saturday, so the conclusion is true, but the argument is not valid.

Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 08:36 AM

Quote:

John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness? And, how do people hold it amiss? How do they hold it aright?

I can't speak John's language fluently like John, but these are interesting questions, so I'll jump in.

The nature of God's righteousness is His goodness; His mercy, compassion, graciousness, and love. False righteousness is self-righteousness, which insists upon seeing things from man's perspective, as opposed to God's. People hold righteousness aright when they accept God's perspective of it, instead of insisting upon their own.

An example of this concept is brought out here:

Quote:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' F23 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

"Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 07:18 PM

Quote:

MM: Okay, let’s try this again:

1. As you correctly point out, neither being born again nor abiding in Jesus causes people to lose their ability or freedom to sin.

MM: I agree.

2. Given that this is that case, you cannot reason that being born again is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin, because born again believers do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.

MM: It requires rebirth and abiding in Jesus to not sin. Thus, rebirth alone is not enough. It takes both. I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?

3. Since born again believers who abide in Jesus do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth plus abiding in Jesus, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

MM: Why not? Being born again and abiding in Jesus includes everything. What else is needed to empower born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit?

TE: Please take a look at the logical problem of your statement that I pointed out. If you still don't see what I was pointing out, I'll repeat, if you'd like, tomorrow.

MM: “I’m not sure what you’re getting at, though. What does retaining the ability and freedom to sin have to do with it?” Perhaps it would help if you reworded your argument?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/03/07 07:35 PM

TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?

Exodus
21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus
24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.
24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him [again].
24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him [that which is] wrong;
19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy [is], shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, [if] the witness [be] a false witness, [and] hath testified falsely against his brother;
19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 12:43 AM

Tom has the point.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

John, what is the "nature" of God's righteousness?

The nature of God’s righteousness is “life”; “eternal life”. It is the spirit of his righteousness. It is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting:
Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

And, how do people hold it amiss?

The simplest way to realize the nature of our righteousness is in how we respond when someone wrongs us, or crosses our idea of right and wrong; our idea of God.

The nature of our righteousness is revealed in the way we make or want to make wrongs right. Are we sorry for the transgressor or for ourselves? Do we become the accuser or mediator? If we condemn and wish for “justice” (retribution), the nature of our righteousness is amiss. It is not the nature of God’s righteousness. It is the righteousness which brings death. This is the law of sin and death.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So to hold it amiss is to use the word of God for the purpose of condemnation, retribution and death. This is the deception of sin.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

How do they hold it aright?

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Thus to hold the nature of God’s righteousness aright is to cease from our own judgment (righteousness) and trust God’s judgment. This we can only do by faith; accept his judgment (grace) in the place of ours. Thus by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thus we hold the righteousness of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

Hardness of the heart does not yield the nature of God’s righteousness. The one was according to the nature of our righteousness (hardness of heart); the other is according to the nature of his righteousness.

Which nature of righteousness do you aspire?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 01:29 AM

JB: Which nature of righteousness do you aspire?

MM: Real righteousness. The kind that blesses man and glorifies God.

Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Revelation
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 06:46 AM

TE: The way that we do right is by thinking right. Our brain controls our actions, and our words. To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts. God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right. This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

MM: Tom, I totally disagree with this idea. Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you. Thank you.

Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right. You really think it's necessary to make this point?

Let's try it this way.

1.The way that we do right is by thinking right.
2.Our brain controls our actions, and our words.
3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts.
4.God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right.
5.This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

You say you "totally disagree" with this idea. Which of these points do you disagree with, and why? (In case you didn't notice, I just restated what I said before, but numbered the sentence to make identification easy).

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 06:59 AM

Quote:

Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

You are saying the following:
Suppose the following is true:
1.Born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin.

It follows that:
2.Rebirth is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin.

The problem is with your preliminary statement, 1. You say that since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin that 2. follows. However, this same logic could be used for any idea postulated as that which makes it possible for them not to sin.

Say X is what makes it possible for born again believers not to sin. Then I could make the following argument, based on your logic:

1.Believers with characterist X do not lost the ability or freedom to sin.
2.There X is not the only thing that makes it possible for them not to sin.

You've constructed an argument which can never be valid. That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false. A valid argument has to have a true premise which implies a true conclusion. Your argument has a false premise, from which not valid argument can ensue.

The whole problem is with the phrase "do not lose the ability or freedom to sin". Since this never happens, you cannot make any inferences from this. Your "therefore" does not follow, and cannot follow. No "therefore" can.

Here's an analogy:

Since Americans do not lose the ability or freedom to get ill, aspirin, therefore, is not the only condition which enables them to get healthy.

Your argument is like this one. This argument is invalid, because Americans never lose the freedom or ability to get ill.

Do you see the problem?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 07:02 AM

Quote:

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (Deut. 24:1-4)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 07:14 AM

Quote:

The nature of our righteousness is revealed in the way we make or want make wrongs right. Are we sorry for the transgressor or for ourselves? Do we become the accuser or mediator? If we condemn and wish for “justice” (retribution), the nature of our righteousness is amiss. It is not the nature of God’s righteousness. It is the righteousness which brings death.

Nice point, John. It reminds me of the following, form the Desire of Ages:

Quote:

. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 09:22 PM

TE: Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right. You really think it's necessary to make this point?

MM: Here’s what I wrote:

Quote:

Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right, speak right, or do right. The Holy Spirit, residing within them, is what empowers them to not only know what is right but to “will and to do” what is right. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” I do not believe God simply points out the truth so they can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”.

MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.

TE: Let's try it this way:

1.The way that we do right is by thinking right.

MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Right thinking is not the source of righteousness.

2.Our brain controls our actions, and our words.

MM: In the realm of righteousness our brain, by itself, is powerless to produce holy thoughts, words, and beahvior. It is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit that we are able to use our faculties of mind and body to resist sinning and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts.

MM: I disagree. See my response to 1 and 2 above.

4.God empowers us to do right by teaching us to think right.

MM: I disagree. See above.

5.This is why we are enjoined to do things like meditate upon the life of Christ an hour a day, especially upon the latter scenes; because by beholding we become changed.

MM: These things, in and of themselves, do not empower us to resist sinning and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The reason they work is because the Holy Spirit makes it efficacious.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 09:50 PM

TE: You've constructed an argument which can never be valid. That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false. . . The whole problem is with the phrase "do not lose the ability or freedom to sin". Since this never happens, you cannot make any inferences from this.

MM: Tom, I wrote “born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin” in response to the idea that rebirth is the reason why they “cannot sin”.

Before people are born again and begin abiding in Jesus “cannot sin” is not an option. People are not truly free to sin until they are free from sin. They are sin-slaves until they experience the miracle of rebirth and abide in Jesus.

“Cannot sin” only applies to born again believers abiding in Jesus. Rebirth, by itself, is not enough. Both are necessary. In order to enjoy the “cannot sin” experience, people must be born again and abide in Jesus.

TE: That's because the last part of your premise "do not lost the ability or freedom to sin" is always false.

MM: I disagree. People retain the ability and freedom to sin throughout eternity. Though they will never use it, they, nevertheless, will never lose it.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/04/07 09:58 PM

TE: "Eye for eye" is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss. Loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, etc. are examples of holding it aright.

MM: Why, then, if one cancels the other, did Jesus command both in the OT?

TE: For the same reason He commanded this [Deut. 24:1-4 quoted]:

MM: How does the law governing divorce and remarriage explain why the laws governing retribution (“eye for eye”) are examples of holding the righteousness of God amiss?

Since it was Jesus Himself who created and commanded the “eye for eye” principle, how can you say it is an example of holding the righteousness of God amiss?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 12:43 AM

John already answered this, by the way.

Why did Christ give the command in Deut. 24:1-4?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 01:06 AM

Responding to post #84840.

1.Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking.

Quote:

Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ...

How can this make sense?

2.I think you're being excessively nit-picky, just looking at things to pick at rather than trying to understand the overall point being made, which is from Christ who said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is He." But just to mention one of the points you disagree with:

Quote:

3.To do right, we must make right decisions, which comes about by thinking right thoughts.

Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly.

The server is down right now, but I suggest doing a search on "right thinking." You might find some interesting things out.

In general, the weakness, as I see it, of your opposition to the importance of right thinking is the implication that we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 01:19 AM

You're still not dealing with the logic of the argument. Perhaps you'd like to consider the analogy that I gave and deal with that. I've pointed out that you are preoccupied with the content rather than considering the logic. The analogy may help because, since it is not an argument you presented yourself, but just a made up one, you should feel no pressure to defend it, which may leave you free to concentrate on the logic. Here's the analogy.

Quote:

Since Americans do not lose the ability or freedom to get ill, aspirin, therefore, is not the only condition which enables them to get healthy.

Do you see the problem with this argument? (that is, with the logic). If so, what is it? If you can answer this question, you should be able to apply this answer to your own argument, of which this is an analogy.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 07:00 AM

MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.

TE: Let's try it this way: The way that we do right is by thinking right.

MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Right thinking is not the source of righteousness.

TE: Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking. “Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ...” How can this make sense?

MM: I do not believe God points out the truth so people can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”. Knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Right thinking is not the source of holy thoughts.

TE: Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly.

MM: I do not believe it is possible. "Right thinking" (understanding what is right) is necessary, but it is not what empowers people to have holy thoughts (thinking right thoughts).

TE: In general, the weakness, as I see it, of your opposition to the importance of right thinking is the implication that we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking.

MM: Here are my comments on this thread regarding right thinking:

Quote:

“Paul wrote that knowing what is right and being willing to do it is not enough. We do not naturally possess the physical or spiritual power to do it.” (84263)

“The way I see it, right thinking is not the miracle that empowers us to live in accordance with right thinking.” (84626)

“Right thinking is necessary, but I do not believe it is the origin and source of power.” (84683)

MM: None of my comments can be construed to mean I am implying “we can do right in some way which doesn't involve thinking.”

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 07:11 AM

PS - I do not see how your analogy reflects the insights I've been posting. I see no corollary connection.

1. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

2. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus, however, does not cause them to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 11:53 AM

MM: So, again, knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.

TE: Let's try it this way: The way that we do right is by thinking right.

MM: I disagree. The “way” that we are able to “do” right is by cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

When we cooperate with the Holy Spirit, what is it that He does? Doesn't He enable us to think right? How can we do right without thinking right?

TE: Of course right thinking cannot be that which enables right thinking. “Right thinking is not what empowers born again believers to think right ...” How can this make sense?

MM: I do not believe God points out the truth so people can think right and then turns them lose to “go and sin no more”.

Right thinking does not come about merely as a result of God pointing out the truth. Why do you suggest this?

Knowing what is right is not what empowers born again believers to have holy thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Right thinking is not the source of holy thoughts.

This is irrelevant to my point.

TE: Please explain to me how we can do right while making wrong decisions and thinking incorrectly.

MM: I do not believe it is possible. "Right thinking" (understanding what is right) is necessary, but it is not what empowers people to have holy thoughts (thinking right thoughts).

Right thinking is not what empowers people to have right thoughts. Again you're pointing this out. I don't know why. Of course right thinking doesn't enable right thinking. Why would it? Why do you feel this point needs to be made even once, let alone repeatedly?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 12:00 PM

Quote:

PS - I do not see how your analogy reflects the insights I've been posting. I see no corollary connection.

The analogy, as I pointed out, had to with the logic. You are having difficult seeing the logic of your argument. I keep pointing out why your argument is not logical, and you keep not dealing with the logic, but rather with the content of individual statements. The logic has to do with how the individual statements are put together. As far as the logic of the argument is put together, the content of the statements does not matter, except as to whether or not they are true.

You stated that since a person is free to sin after being born again, therefore being born again cannot be the sole reason as to why they can overcome sin. This is an illogical argument. I have repeatedly pointed out why. I gave the other argument as a analogy to the faulty logic that you used. That is, the argument about the aspirin uses the same logic you are using. I gave you this analogy to try to help you to look at the argument as a whole, so you could see why it's not logical, rather than get bogged down on the individual statements, which is not what I was commenting on.

Nevertheless, you keep commenting on the individual statements, rather than on the logic of the argument.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 06:12 PM

TE: When we cooperate with the Holy Spirit, what is it that He does? Doesn't He enable us to think right? How can we do right without thinking right?

MM: Thinking right and having holy thoughts are different things. Just because God successfully “convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed” it doesn’t mean they are also capable of having holy thoughts. Cooperating with the Holy Spirit, abiding in Jesus, is what empowers us to have holy thoughts that are in harmony with the principles of right thinking.

TE: Right thinking does not come about merely as a result of God pointing out the truth. Why do you suggest this?

MM: I am making a distinction between knowing what is right, that is, knowing the truth about God’s law and character, and having holy thoughts that are in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus. The devils believe and tremble. In other words, knowing what is right and true is not the same thing as be able to have holy thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. So, how are you defining “right thinking”?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/05/07 06:23 PM

TE: You stated that since a person is free to sin after being born again, therefore being born again cannot be the sole reason as to why they can overcome sin. This is an illogical argument.

MM: For some reason you keep dissecting my statements and contrasting them in a way that is contrary to my intent. The way you miss match them does sound crazy. But for the life of me I cannot understand why you think the following two insights are illogical.

1. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus empowers born again believers to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

2. Rebirth and abiding in Jesus, however, does not cause them to lose the ability or freedom to sin.

Again, please bear in mind that these statements relate to 1 John 3:6-9 where John describes rebirth and abiding in Jesus in the context of not sinning and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit (loving God and man).

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 12:05 AM

Here's what you wrote, MM:

Quote:

Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

This is illogical. Do you understand this? I've explained why several times now. If you don't understand, just say, "No, I don't understand why this argument is illogical" and we don't need to discuss it anymore. I'll just live with your making statements like this.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 12:27 AM

I know you like authority based things, so here's a quote from the Spirit of Prophecy:

Quote:

The only security for any soul is right thinking. As a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7). --MH 491 (1905). {2MCP 666.3}

This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

The devils to not think right. If you think they do, you've really misunderstood things. I don't know why you'd bring them up.

Chapter 27 of "Mind, Health, and Personality" is entitled "Right Thinking." You might find that helpful to look at.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 05:07 AM

MM: Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

TE: This is illogical.

MM: I am arguing against the idea that rebirth and right thinking are the reasons why people "cannot sin" (verse 9). Rebirth and right thinking are not the reasons why they cannot sin. Abiding in Jesus is what gives them the ability and freedom to not sin. And only born again believers can abide in Jesus. Thus, rebirth by itself is not enough. It takes both. Combined they empower people to live in harmony with right thinking.

EGW: The only security for any soul is right thinking. As a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7). --MH 491 (1905). {2MCP 666.3}

TE: This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

MM: Are you sure right thinking is our "only" security?

CH 594
Our only security against falling into sin is to keep ourselves continually under the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, at the same time engaging actively in the cause of truth and holiness, discharging every God-given duty, but taking no burden which God has not laid upon us. {CH 594.2}

4BC 1166
Unless they trust in the righteousness of Christ as their only security; unless they copy His character, labor in His spirit, they are naked, they have not on the robe of His righteousness. {4BC 1166.2}

8T 106
Man's only security against rash, ambitious movements is to keep the heart in harmony with Christ Jesus. Man's wisdom is untrustworthy. Man is fickle, filled with self-esteem, pride, and selfishness. {8T 106.1}

UL 75
Christ is our only security. We cannot trust to human reasoning. The world is full of men and women who cherish deceptive theories, and it is dangerous to listen to them. {UL 75.5}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 05:40 AM

Quote:

Since born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin, rebirth, therefore, is not the solitary condition that makes it possible for them not to sin.

It simply does not follow that rebirth is not the solitary condition that make is possible for born again believers not to sin from the premise that "born again believers do not lose the ability or freedom to sin." That this argument is illogical can be seen by substituting some other criterion which you do think is sufficient for "born again believers". Say you think "born again believers abiding in Jesus" is a sufficient criterion to not sin. Then your argument would read like this:

Quote:

Your argument would never work, regardless of what you put in the place of "born again believers." It is fundamentally flawed.

EGW: The only security for any soul is right thinking. As a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7). --MH 491 (1905). {2MCP 666.3}

TE: This is what I've been saying. (She even quoted the same verse I did, and used the same logic.) Now you can accept it as truth, because someone besides me said it.

You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 07:09 PM

TE: It doesn't matter what the purpose of your argument is. What you wrote above is illogical.

MM: Okay. You’re right. It is illogical. Thank you for pointing it out. Now we need to discuss the reason why born again believers “cannot sin” (verse 9).

TE: You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

MM: I agree with everything she wrote about our “only” security, not with just the one quote you provided. I especially like this one - “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/06/07 08:20 PM

Quote:

TE: You made a statement questioning Ellen White's statement and then quoting a bunch of other Ellen White statements. I'm sure you had some reason for doing this, but you didn't state what it was. Do you disagree with what she wrote?

MM: I agree with everything she wrote about our “only” security, not with just the one quote you provided. I especially like this one - “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)

Well, she said the same thing I did, used the same logic, and used the same Scripture text. So if you agree with her, you agree with me.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/07/07 06:45 PM

TE: This seems sarcastic.

MM: I'm sorry. I am not being sarcastic. Let me know when you'd like to discuss the reason why born again believers “cannot sin” (verse 9). Thank you.

TE: Well, she said the same thing I did, used the same logic, and used the same Scripture text. So if you agree with her, you agree with me.

MM: Amen! Right thinking is crucial. But my favorite "only security" statement is “Christ is our only security.” (UL 75)

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/07/07 07:39 PM

I already know you think that "He cannot sin because he is born of God" means "He cannot commit a known sin because he is born again, plus is abiding in Jesus." Is there some other point you want to make?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/07/07 09:02 PM

Actually, I am curious about the phrase "for his seed remaineth in him". (vs 9) Do you see this as a reason why born again believers "cannot sin"?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/07/07 11:08 PM

Yes.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/07/07 11:18 PM

Quote:

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If
you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. (MB 77, 78)

I think this expresses the same idea as John, in terms of what it means to say that a born again person cannot sin because His seed remains in him.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/08/07 04:56 AM

Amen!

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/08/07 05:55 AM

That's a beautiful quote, isn't it? The part right before it is good too. (Well, the whole book is good). It talks about how God has made provision what we will be like Him (Christ), and He will accomplish this if we don't interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/08/07 06:38 PM

It sounds like we're on the same page as to what Jesus does for us and through us when we do not hinder the Holy Spirit. I thoroughly love it, that is, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, not sinning, and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit - being like Jesus. Thank you Jesus!

Unfortunately I suspect we are not on the same page so far as just how converted, transformed people are the moment they are born again. I believe Jesus carefully, cautiously reveals to them all of their cultivated sinful habits, not too fast, not too slow, so as to not blow them away, and that they experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their last habit is revealed and confessed.

At this precise point they are justified, counted as though they have never sinned. Jesus implants within them the sinless seed or mind of he new man, which comes complete with all of the righteous fruit and attributes of God's character. Not one trait or fruit is missing. They are not, however, born again mature. Like Jesus, they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit so long as they are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus.

Eternity is not long enough to exhaust their ability to become more and more mature, more and more like Jesus. This process of sanctification, which begins the instant they are reborn, continues throughout eternity. It involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not include discovering cultivated sinful habits, which hitherto had not been revealed, which Jesus was waiting to reveal to them at a more convenient time. Sanctification only involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

Again, I suspect we disagree regarding some of these details. I hope we can discuss them.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/08/07 08:40 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately I suspect we are not on the same page so far as just how converted, transformed people are the moment they are born again. I believe Jesus carefully, cautiously reveals to them all of their cultivated sinful habits, not too fast, not too slow, so as to not blow them away, and that they experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their last habit is revealed and confessed.

I don't know a single person to whom this definition of being born again applies.

Quote:

My experience was similar to this. Those who I know who have been converted have had experiences similar to this. I don't know anyone who has had the born again experience you are describing.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/09/07 06:19 AM

Sister White certainly described it the way I did:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/09/07 01:05 PM

No, that's not describing things at all like you say; it's explaining things according to the way I was saying, according to the way people actually experience conversion.

When one is converted, one is made aware of one's sinfulness and one's need for Christ. These are the two overriding things. Ask anyone who has been converted, and these two things will be mentioned, surely.

What you are saying is that conversion has to do not with a need for Christ or a conviction of one's sinfulness, but with having every sinful habit cultivated from birth revealed by the Holy Spirit. At the precise moment the last sinful habit is revealed, then the process of being born again is completed. That neither ties in with reality or Scripture. I don't know a single person who has had that experience.

Here's an example of conversion from Scripture:

Quote:

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.(Luke 18:13, 14)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/10/07 05:36 AM

TE: I don't know a single person who has had that experience.

MM: That's the problem. True conversions are rare. Superficial conversions abound. Sister White addresses this problem in the following quotes. Each one of these quotes refutes the idea that rebirth and conversion is normal and plentiful.

EGW: With many, religious faith and principles are mingled with worldly customs and practices, and pure and undefiled religion is rare. {CT 478.1}

A character unsullied before God is rare. {4T 622.2}

Much of the faith which we see is merely nominal; the real, trusting, persevering faith is rare. {5T 651.3}

Holiness of life and character is a rare thing, but this the worker must have or he cannot yoke up with Christ. {FE 109.3}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7}

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/10/07 06:37 AM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 05:10 AM

Tom, according to the theory you are espousing, rebirth is common and frequent experience. This view totally contradicts the following inspired insights:

Quote:

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7}

The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

A) Please quote where it says conversion is as common as you say it is. Where does it say people experience a "radical change of heart" while simultaneously retaining all manner of sinful habits, that is, cultivated defects and imperfections God is waiting to reveal until the time is right.

B) Also, which cultivated sinful habits are overlooked, reserved to be revealed later on, which trait of Christ's spotless character is hidden, in the following quote:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul,

[1] makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct,

[2] and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

[3] It makes apparent the unhallowed desires,

[4] the infidelity of the heart,

[5] the impurity of the lips.

[6] The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God,

[7] are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.

[8] He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 06:58 AM

Quote:

Tom, according to the theory you are espousing, rebirth is common and frequent experience.

Where do you get this from? You assert many things that, as far as I can tell, you just make up. You have no idea how frequent I think rebirth us. Please present some evidence for your assertion regarding how common I think the rebirth experience is.

Quote:

Please quote where it says conversion is as common as you say it is.

What are you referring to? How common do I think conversion is? I'm sure you have no idea.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 07:01 AM

Anyway, you're going off on a tangent. My point is that nothing you have presented in any way supports your theory. There's nothing in inspiration which says that before a person can be born again that God must reveal every cultivated sinful habit. You yourself have admitted that there are exceptions to this, so even you don't believe it to be true. If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions. Not only are there exceptions, there are no recorded episodes in history where this has happened. There simply isn't any evidence for this theory, but there is evidence against it, such as the publican I cited, and the exceptions you have already admitted to.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 06:41 PM

Here is evidence:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul,

[1] makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct,

[2] and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

[3] It makes apparent the unhallowed desires,

[4] the infidelity of the heart,

[5] the impurity of the lips.

[6] The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God,

[7] are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.

[8] He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Here is more evidence:

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. (1 S&T 246)

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. (DA 676)

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. (COL 330)

Only the faultless will be there. None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth. Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome. (Mar 58)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 06:56 PM

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the theif on the cross?

TE: ... such as the publican I cited ...

MM: Where does it say the publican retained certain sinful cultivated habits? Are you assuming he was justified in his sins? Or, do you have evidence to prove it?

The following inspired insights describe the publican:

SC 29, 30
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1} ...

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. {SC 30.2}

COL 151
The publican had gone to the temple with other worshipers, but he soon drew apart from them as unworthy to unite in their devotions. Standing afar off, he "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast," in bitter anguish and self-abhorrence. He felt that he had transgressed against God, that he was sinful and polluted. He could not expect even pity from those around him, for they looked upon him with contempt. He knew that he had no merit to commend him to God, and in utter self-despair he cried, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." He did not compare himself with others. Overwhelmed with a sense of guilt, he stood as if alone in God's presence. His only desire was for pardon and peace, his only plea was the mercy of God. And he was blessed. "I tell you," Christ said, "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other." {COL 151.3}

The following quote describes the prerequisites for justification:

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 09:01 PM

None of the proposed evidence says anything remotely like what you are suggesting. Not a word that every sinful habit cultivated from birth must be revealed and confessed. Not a word about exceptions for smoking and polygamy.

Here's something from Waggoner:

Quote:

Note how this epistle emphasizes the fact that the Gospel is divine, not human. In the first verse the apostle states that he was not sent by man, nor to represent any man. Again he says that he is not anxious to please men, but only Christ; and now it is made very clear that the message he bore was wholly from heaven. By birth and education he was opposed to the Gospel, and when he was converted it was by a voice from heaven. Read the accounts of his conversion in Acts 9:1-22; 22:3-16; 26:9-20. The Lord Himself appeared to him in the way as he was breathing threatening and slaughter against the saints of God.

There are no two persons whose experience in conversion is the same, yet the general principles are the same in all. In effect, every person must be converted just as Paul was. The experience will seldom be so striking, but if it is genuine, it must be a revelation from heaven as surely as Paul's was. "All thy children shall be taught of the Lord." Is.54:13; John 6:45. "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." "The anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." 1Joh.2:27. (The Glad Tidings, chapter 1)

Waggoner has the right idea. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ, not sinful habits cultivated since birth, which leads to conversion. This is the same thing Ellen White wrote. The revelation of Christ does indeed lead to things you presented as evidence, but the evidence is that of a changed heart and mind, a change direction in life; but nothing about every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/11/07 09:13 PM

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the theif on the cross?

This isn't a very accurately phrased question, but I think I know what you mean. You're actually asking if the exception regarding sinful habits being revealed applied to the thief on the cross, but you mentioned baptism, so I assume what you really mean is if the requirement that one be baptized before one can be converted applies to thief on the cross.

There is no such requirement. As circumcision was a sign of the righteousness the believer had in Christ by faith, so is baptism a sign of the righteousness one has by faith in Christ. The thief was born again by faith in Christ, the same as any other individual who has been born again.

By the way, at the time Christ died, baptism wasn't a requirement for anyone, even for those whose lives were not cut short. It's very odd that you mention it at all.

TE: ... such as the publican I cited ...

MM: Where does it say the publican retained certain sinful cultivated habits?

You have an theory of conversion that speaks little of Christ and much of cultivated sinful habits. But there's no record of the principles you are suggesting in any recorded conversion, nor in real life conversions that we encounter amongst our friends and so forth. You do not converted people? I'm not talking about over the internet, where one's character is difficult to ascertain, but in real life. Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

However there is a principle of conversion that I have noticed amongst those I've met, and that is the principle Waggoner brings out. There was a revelation of Christ. It is Christ who saves. By knowing Him, one's life is transformed.

Please bear in mind that in disagreeing with your particular idea of every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed, which is neither practical, nor expressed in inspiration, nor born out by actual experience, I am not denying that there is a wonderful transformation that takes place when one is converted. Here is a nice expression of conversion:

Quote:

Are you assuming he was justified in his sins? Or, do you have evidence to prove it?

[color:blue]I've said nothing of the sort. You should read more carefully!!

The following inspired insights describe the publican:

SC 29, 30
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1} ...

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing. {SC 30.2}

COL 151
The publican had gone to the temple with other worshipers, but he soon drew apart from them as unworthy to unite in their devotions. Standing afar off, he "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast," in bitter anguish and self-abhorrence. He felt that he had transgressed against God, that he was sinful and polluted. He could not expect even pity from those around him, for they looked upon him with contempt. He knew that he had no merit to commend him to God, and in utter self-despair he cried, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." He did not compare himself with others. Overwhelmed with a sense of guilt, he stood as if alone in God's presence. His only desire was for pardon and peace, his only plea was the mercy of God. And he was blessed. "I tell you," Christ said, "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other." {COL 151.3}

The following quote describes the prerequisites for justification:

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Right! Ellen White has the right idea. Stick to this, rather than adding you own requirements, and you'll be in good shape!

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/12/07 02:41 AM

TE: None of the proposed evidence says anything remotely like what you are suggesting.

MM: I disagree.

TE: It is a revelation of Jesus Christ, not sinful habits cultivated since birth, which leads to conversion.

MM: It’s both.

TE: If it were a requirement, there wouldn't be any exceptions.

MM: Does this apply to baptism and the thief on the cross?

TE: There is no such requirement. . . . By the way, at the time Christ died, baptism wasn't a requirement for anyone, even for those whose lives were not cut short. It's very odd that you mention it at all.

MM: I disagree. Jesus made baptism a prerequisite. It wasn’t optional. He made it a requirement before His death on the cross.

EV 306
Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. {Ev 306.3}

SR 289
The descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles was not an equivalent for baptism. The requisite steps in conversion, in all cases, are faith, repentance, and baptism. {SR 289.2}

DA 171, 172
Raising His hand with solemn, quiet dignity, He pressed the truth home with greater assurance, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus knew that Christ here referred to water baptism and the renewing of the heart by the Spirit of God. {DA 171.5}

TE: Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

MM: Yes, of course. But it doesn’t mean they never sin. It means they do not sin while they are complying with the conditions, namely, abiding in Jesus.

TE: Please bear in mind that in disagreeing with your particular idea of every sinful habit cultivated since birth being revealed, which is neither practical, nor expressed in inspiration, nor born out by actual experience, I am not denying that there is a wonderful transformation that takes place when one is converted.

MM: The view you are espousing comes short of the glory of God. It teaches that people are born again in need of rebirth, in need of confessing and crucifying sinful cultivated habits God chose not to reveal to them. The SC 29 quote refutes this view.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/12/07 03:59 AM

MM: I disagree. Jesus made baptism a prerequisite. It wasn’t optional. He made it a requirement before His death on the cross.

When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?

MM: The view you are espousing comes short of the glory of God.

Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

It teaches that people are born again in need of rebirth, in need of confessing and crucifying sinful cultivated habits God chose not to reveal to them.

So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

The SC 29 quotes refutes this view.

SC 29 says that before a person can be converted every sinful habit cultivated since birth, (except smoking, polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you all) must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed? Where does it say that? All I've seen you quote is this:

Quote:

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.

which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/12/07 05:28 AM

TE: When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it “fulfilled all righteousness”. (Mat 3:15) He said it is a prerequisite during His explanation to Nicodemus. It is not any more meritorious than Sabbath keeping.

TE: Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

MM: God is the one who makes exceptions – not me.

TE: So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

MM: Are you implying you think your view is no better than what you think of mine? Besides, I do not allow for such exceptions - God does. However, such exceptions are not the rule.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

TE: … which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

MM: It seems to me you have been arguing against it. From what I can see, you do not believe God reveals “every spot of defilement” in one ray or gleam. I hear you saying God waits to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until a more suitable time.

TE: Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

MM: Yes, of course. But it doesn’t mean they never sin. It means they do not sin while they are complying with the conditions, namely, abiding in Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/12/07 06:06 AM

TE: When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it “fulfilled all righteousness”. (Mat 3:15) He said it is a prerequisite during His explanation to Nicodemus. It is not any more meritorious than Sabbath keeping.

So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

TE: Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

MM: God is the one who makes exceptions – not me.

TE: So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

MM: Are you implying you think your view is no better than what you think of mine? Besides, I do not allow for such exceptions - God does. However, such exceptions are not the rule.

No, I'm pointing out the same argument you are making against my point of view applies equally well to yours. That is, your argument is unsound. It doesn't even work for your own view.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

TE: … which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

MM: It seems to me you have been arguing against it.

No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

From what I can see, you do not believe God reveals “every spot of defilement” in one ray or gleam. I hear you saying God waits to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until a more suitable time.

As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 12:59 AM

TE: So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

MM: It became a prerequisite when Jesus made it mandatory. Baptism is not optional. Not because I say so, but because Jesus says so. What do you believe?

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

TE: No, I'm pointing out the same argument you are making against my point of view applies equally well to yours. That is, your argument is unsound. It doesn't even work for your own view.

MM: I disagree.

TE: No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

MM: You are twisting what I believe. God making exceptions to the rule in rare circumstances does not do away with the rule.

TE: As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

MM: When God chooses to bend the rules to save someone that is His prerogative. But exceptions such as these do not abrogate the rule. Arguing against the rule based on God making exceptions implicates God – not me.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 02:13 AM

TE: So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

MM: It became a prerequisite when Jesus made it mandatory. Baptism is not optional. Not because I say so, but because Jesus says so. What do you believe?

I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(snip)

TE: No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

MM: You are twisting what I believe. God making exceptions to the rule in rare circumstances does not do away with the rule.

Smoking and polygamy are/were not rare. If the exceptions apply to smoking and polygamy, they surely apply to other things as well. Like drinking for example. The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

TE: As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

MM: When God chooses to bend the rules to save someone that is His prerogative. But exceptions such as these do not abrogate the rule. Arguing against the rule based on God making exceptions implicates God – not me.

The whole idea of thinking of salvation in relation to rules isn't the right way of looking at it. We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God. It also binds us to Him. The following describes this well:

Quote:

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 03:29 AM

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

MM: Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus. Do you think it is optional?

TE: The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

MM: God prohibits dinking strong drink. “The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.” (Te 42) “Therefore God explicitly forbids the use of wine and strong drink.” (Te 92)

TE: We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God.

MM: Again, we cannot separate faith and works. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17) God is the one who established the rules, laws, principles, whatever term you want to use to describe it, which govern His work of saving sinners. And He can bend them to save people if He needs to.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 03:32 AM

3SM 196
Many do not pray. They feel under condemnation for sin, and they think they must not come to God until they have done something to merit His favor or until God has forgotten about their transgressions. They say, "I cannot hold up holy hands before God without wrath or doubting, and therefore I cannot come." So they remain away from Christ, and are committing sin all the time in so doing, for without Him you can do nothing but evil. {3SM 196.2}

MM: I ran across this quote while searching for something else. “… without Him you can do nothing but evil.” Again, apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, apart from abiding in Him - we can do nothing but sin.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 06:18 AM

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

MM: Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus. Do you think it is optional?

I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

TE: The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

MM: God prohibits dinking strong drink. “The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.” (Te 42) “Therefore God explicitly forbids the use of wine and strong drink.” (Te 92)

Quote:

14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it; or, if the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD your God has blessed you,

14:25 Then shall you turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place which the LORD your God shall choose,

14:26 And you shall spend that money for whatsoever your soul lusts after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever your soul desires; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you, and your household.

I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

TE: We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God.

MM: Again, we cannot separate faith and works.

This is a tangent. Nobody has suggested this. Why are you saying "again"?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17) God is the one who established the rules, laws, principles, whatever term you want to use to describe it, which govern His work of saving sinners. And He can bend them to save people if He needs to.

God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 10:21 PM

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”.

TE: Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

MM: We are saved by the “rule of faith”. Faith does not save us in a vacuum. We are saved by faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

1BC 1110
We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed; it contains the instruction that if studied will enable us to understand better the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow in our dealings with one another. No soul has any excuse for being in darkness. Those who receive Christ by faith will receive also power to become the sons of God (Letter 3, 1905). {1BC 1110.4}

TE: God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

MM: Then how do you explain God winking at sins of ignorance? He says, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And yet there have been times when He winked at sinning. Did He make an exception?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/13/07 10:49 PM

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”.

Inspiration teaches us that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. We do not earn salvation by anything we do. However the genuineness of our faith is demonstrated by things we do. Baptism is a public confession of the righteousness we have by faith in Jesus Christ.

It seems to me I've answered this three of four times now. I think my answer is Biblical, as well as full and complete. I don't think you need to ask it again. If you do, please make your question as complete as my answer. That is, what exactly are you asking? Your question is rather vague. It seems to me regardless of what you are wanting to ask that my answer would address that.

TE: Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.

So your previous answer to my question as to when baptism became necessary was inaccurate? You said it was when he spoke to Nicodemus. Now you appear to be saying it was necessary before then. So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

TE: God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

MM: We are saved by the “rule of faith”. Faith does not save us in a vacuum. We are saved by faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

1BC 1110
We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed; it contains the instruction that if studied will enable us to understand better the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow in our dealings with one another. No soul has any excuse for being in darkness. Those who receive Christ by faith will receive also power to become the sons of God (Letter 3, 1905). {1BC 1110.4}

Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

TE: God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

MM: Then how do you explain God winking at sins of ignorance?

This is entirely in harmony with the principles of God. If God sometimes winked at sins of ignorance, then you would have a valid question.

He says, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And yet there have been times when He winked at sinning. Did He make an exception?

No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/14/07 06:06 AM

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”. In other words, did Jesus require it? If a person refuses to be baptized, in spite of what Jesus said about it, will he be saved? I understand baptism is not what saves us.

Quote:

Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. . . . As Christians submit to the solemn rite of baptism, He registers the vow that they make to be true to Him. This vow is their oath of allegiance. {FLB 145.3}

Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: So your previous answer to my question as to when baptism became necessary was inaccurate? You said it was when he spoke to Nicodemus. Now you appear to be saying it was necessary before then.

MM: Here are the two statements I made about it (please note that neither statements pinpoints when it was necessary):

1. “Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus.’

2. “Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.”

TE: So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

MM: Is it necessary for salvation? “He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” What do you think?
…………………………

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

MM: I don’t know what to think of Deut 14:26. What does the SDABC say about it? I don’t have a copy. Is there one online?

………………………….

TE: Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

MM: I believe God saves us according to specific rules and principles. He adheres to these rules. Except, of course, there have been times when He bent them.

……………………………..

TE: No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.

MM: Jesus died for sins of ignorance the same as for intentional or unintentional sins. Winking doesn’t do away with the death penalty.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/14/07 08:24 AM

TE: So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

MM: Is it necessary for salvation? “He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” What do you think?

I think you didn't answer my questions!

At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?

…………………………

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

MM: I don’t know what to think of Deut 14:26. What does the SDABC say about it? I don’t have a copy. Is there one online?

This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

………………………….

TE: Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

MM: I believe God saves us according to specific rules and principles. He adheres to these rules. Except, of course, there have been times when He bent them.

You have this, IMO, completely backwards. The principles reflect God's character. God's character doesn't change, so the principles which reflect His character don't change either. There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions. He is always kind, gracious, compassionate, merciful, walks the second mile, turns the other cheek; in short, He is always like Jesus Christ was during His earthly sojourn with us. The principles which Jesus Christ lived out are the principles by which God, not sometimes, but always, acts.
……………………………..

TE: No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.

MM: Jesus died for sins of ignorance the same as for intentional or unintentional sins. Winking doesn’t do away with the death penalty.

You must have some reason for writing this, but it certainly doesn't follow the train of thought, which was you saying that God makes exceptions to the rules by which he saves us, my denying that, your asking me a question as a follow, as an example of an exception, and my denying that.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/14/07 08:40 PM

TE: I think you didn't answer my questions!

MM: I’m not sure that I can. Precisely when baptism became a “requisite” step of conversion is not, so far as I know, pinpointed. Do you know?

TE: At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

Quote:

TE: This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

MM: Only God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. I suppose it depends on why, in spite of the fact God strictly prohibited it, they chose to drink alcoholic beverages. By the way, the following quote explains Deut 14:16.

Quote:

Regarding shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26, many translations do translate shakar "strong drink." However, some have "similar drink" (see the New King James). There is obviously an intended distinction being made between the "wine" and "shakar." The question is, what is the distinction. Is God not only allowing intoxicating drink but actually telling them to go buy it when God considers strong drink something concerning which man is to totally avoid (Prov. 23: 31)?

I believe the harmonious answer to the distinction between "wine" and "shakar" in Deuteronomy 14: 26 is seen in the celebrated scholar Patton's work, Bible Wines, pg.. 62: "Shakar (sometimes written shechar, shekar) signifies sweet drink expressed from fruits other than the grape and drunk in an unfermented or fermented state. It occurs in the Old Testament twenty-three times...." Since God prohibited the unnatural fermentation of juices for simple human intoxication, I must understand shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26 to simply mean unfermented or sweet juices other than juice from the grape. Deuteronomy 14 26, then, would be a case of shakar being used for sweet juice other than juice from the grape ("similar drink," NKJV).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR121.htm

TE: There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions.

MM: I disagree. God has made plenty of exceptions to certain rules. Making exceptions, however, is part of His character. But at a cost. God cannot just disregard a rule because He wants to. To earn the right to wink at sinful behavior Jesus had to pay the death penalty for their sins of ignorance.

It is the death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to wink at sins of ignorance, that is, to make exceptions to the rule. Again, the rule requires God to punish and destroy people who violate the laws of God. But by allowing Jesus to pay our sin debt, to suffer our death penalty for us, God can justifiably wink at sins of ignorance.

Quote:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." In the ages of darkness that had preceded the advent of Christ, the divine Ruler had passed lightly over the idolatry of the heathen; but now, through His Son, He had sent men the light of truth; and He expected from all repentance unto salvation, not only from the poor and humble, but from the proud philosopher and the princes of the earth. {AA 239.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/14/07 11:23 PM

TE: I think you didn't answer my questions!

MM: I’m not sure that I can. Precisely when baptism became a “requisite” step of conversion is not, so far as I know, pinpointed. Do you know?

If you mean "conversion" as Sister White used the term, which is inclusive of a public confession, then it became "requisite" when Jesus gave the great commission to go baptizing in His name. At least, this is the first that I am aware of His making this command.

If you mean "conversion" as in "born again," or "converted" in normal parlance, it isn't requisite at all, since conversion is entirely an inward experience, which is evidenced by outward actions.

For example, Zechariah was converted when he responded to the Holy Spirit. He repented and accepted Christ as his personal savior. His conversion was made evident by his promise to pay back four fold I think he said anyone he had wronged. That was evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit upon him. However, he did not have to wait until he actually gave any money back to be converted. Nor was his conversion dependent upon the promises he made. The promises he made was evidence of his conversion. Similarly, our baptism is evidence of the righteousness we have by faith in Christ.

This is exactly, to the letter, the same argument that Paul used to explain why circumcision was not a prerequisite to salvation. If you follow Paul's argument as applied to circumcision (in particular, when Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, this was *before* Abraham was circumcised; that's a key to Paul's argument.) and apply it to baptism, then you have an explanation of the relationship between baptism and salvation.

TE: At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

No, I still don't know what you think. Are you saying that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved? What I believe is as I said, that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and baptism is a public expression of that faith. I believe this has always been the position of the SDA church.

Quote:

Here is belief number 15:

Quote:

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

I believe this is correct.

Quote:
Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. . . . As Christians submit to the solemn rite of baptism, He registers the vow that they make to be true to Him. This vow is their oath of allegiance. {FLB 145.3}

Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

MM: Only God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. I suppose it depends on why, in spite of the fact God strictly prohibited it, they chose to drink alcoholic beverages. By the way, the following quote explains Deut 14:16.

Quote:
Regarding shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26, many translations do translate shakar "strong drink." However, some have "similar drink" (see the New King James). There is obviously an intended distinction being made between the "wine" and "shakar." The question is, what is the distinction. Is God not only allowing intoxicating drink but actually telling them to go buy it when God considers strong drink something concerning which man is to totally avoid (Prov. 23: 31)?

I believe the harmonious answer to the distinction between "wine" and "shakar" in Deuteronomy 14: 26 is seen in the celebrated scholar Patton's work, Bible Wines, pg.. 62: "Shakar (sometimes written shechar, shekar) signifies sweet drink expressed from fruits other than the grape and drunk in an unfermented or fermented state. It occurs in the Old Testament twenty-three times...." Since God prohibited the unnatural fermentation of juices for simple human intoxication, I must understand shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26 to simply mean unfermented or sweet juices other than juice from the grape. Deuteronomy 14 26, then, would be a case of shakar being used for sweet juice other than juice from the grape ("similar drink," NKJV).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR121.htm

Strong's has "strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor". The KJV translates the word "strong drink" 21 times, "strong wine" once, and "drunkard" once. If it's a fruit drink, I don't know how "drunkard" could be applied to it.

Divorce would be another example. Can a divorced person be saved ? How about if (s)he's remarried?

I'm just making the point that there are many exception to your rule, so many that it's difficult to think of the rule ever applying. That is, there has never been a person to whom, when they were converted, every sinful habit they had cultivated since birth was revealed.

TE: There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions.

MM: I disagree. God has made plenty of exceptions to certain rules. Making exceptions, however, is part of His character.

God says, "I am the Lord. I change not." He didn't say, "I am the Lord. Making exceptions is a part of My character."

The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

But at a cost. God cannot just disregard a rule because He wants to. To earn the right to wink at sinful behavior Jesus had to pay the death penalty for their sins of ignorance.

Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

It is the death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to wink at sins of ignorance, that is, to make exceptions to the rule.

I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

Again, the rule requires God to punish and destroy people who violate the laws of God.

You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

But by allowing Jesus to pay our sin debt, to suffer our death penalty for us, God can justifiably wink at sins of ignorance.

Quote:
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." In the ages of darkness that had preceded the advent of Christ, the divine Ruler had passed lightly over the idolatry of the heathen; but now, through His Son, He had sent men the light of truth; and He expected from all repentance unto salvation, not only from the poor and humble, but from the proud philosopher and the princes of the earth. {AA 239.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 02:32 AM

Quote:

TE: The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

TE: I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

MM: God cannot disregard the rules and principles governing how He must handle the sin problem.

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt. Otherwise, the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin. Even you agree that the death of Jesus bought us probation.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 03:54 AM

TE: If you mean "conversion" as Sister White used the term, which is inclusive of a public confession, then it became "requisite" when Jesus gave the great commission to go baptizing in His name. At least, this is the first that I am aware of His making this command.

MM: Sounds reasonable. Thank you.

!

...................

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

TE: Are you saying that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved? What I believe is as I said, that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and baptism is a public expression of that faith.

MM: I am saying that Jesus made getting baptized a requirement to enter into the kingdom of God. See John 3:5 quoted above and FLB 145 quoted below. Does it mean baptism is optional? (Yes or No please.)

I agree with what Sister White wrote, that it is a sign of entrance into the kingdom. I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

FLB 145
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: I'm just making the point that there are many exception to your rule, so many that it's difficult to think of the rule ever applying.

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

Glad you recognize this! The principles that regulate how God saves sinners are simple. "Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Salvation if by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

TE: That is, there has never been a person to whom, when they were converted, every sinful habit they had cultivated since birth was revealed.

MM: Don’t blame God for it.

Why would I blame God for something that doesn't happen?

True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again.

SC 29 does not say that. Also, it's an absolute statement. It doens't have exceptions. It's describing the process of actual conversions.

No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

Like smoking, drinking, or polygamy? or baptism (for those who lived before Christ made it known publicly that baptism had become a requirement). Or divorce? Or breaking the Sabbath? Or taking the Lord's name in vain? (e.g. saying "gee!" without realizing that this is short for Jesus.) Or not taking care of one's body? (e.g. not exercizing properly, or poor dietary habits)?

Regarding the years of sinning ignorantly, there's no need for these things to take years, but they will take some time. God dispenses truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it. But He doesn't give it to us all at once. That would blow us away. He reveals things to us as we are willing and able to accept them.

Quote:
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

TE: The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

Where is there any statement in Scripture (or elsewhere) that says that God makes exceptions to how He saves people?

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

This points out that God had a plan in place to meet the sin problem, should it arise. But it says nothing about God earning the right to be able to wink at sins of ignornace.

TE: I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

MM: God cannot disregard the rules and principles governing how He must handle the sin problem.

That's what I've been saying.

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt.

The rules I've mentioned? They're not based on the fact that Jesus paid our debt. They're based on God's character. They're based on the fact that God is kind and gracious, merciful and compassionate. Jesus' death for us is based on God's character as well. Everything God does is based on His character.

Otherwise, the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin. Even you agree that the death of Jesus bought us probation.

Nothing is above God. God does what He pleases, based on the attributes of His character. The law is an expression of that fact. Let's not get the cart before the horse! The law does not sit above God telling Him what He can or cannot do.

Regarding Jesus' buying us probation, what I believe is that had Christ not come to earth, sin would have wiped out the entire human race. For this reason, we each one, owe even our physical lives to Jesus Christ.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 06:50 AM

Quote:

No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It remains therefore that what the Lord works to establish is: "faith".

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 10:24 PM

TE: I agree with what Sister White wrote, that [baptism] is a sign of entrance into the kingdom. I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

MM: Then what does “cannot enter” (John 3:5) and “must comply” (FLB 145) mean to you?

Whatever “enter into the kingdom of God” and “who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” means, it is clear to me that “cannot enter” and “must comply” means baptism is required, that it is not an option.

…………………………

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

TE: Glad you recognize this!

MM: Actually, I never doubted it. I have always believed that God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages, and that Deut 14:26 is not an exception.

TE: The principles that regulate how God saves sinners are simple. "Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Salvation if by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

MM: This is only part of the formula, Tom. “You state this matter too strongly.” “God saves us under a law …”

FW 111
You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1}

Quote:

From the pulpits of today the words are uttered: "Believe, only believe. Have faith in Christ; you have nothing to do with the old law, only trust in Christ." How different is this from the words of the apostle who declares that faith without works is dead. He says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). We must have that faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Many seek to substitute a superficial faith for uprightness of life and think through this to obtain salvation. {FW 89.2}

There are many who cry, "Believe, only believe." Ask them what you are to believe. Are you to believe the lies forged by Satan against God's holy, just, and good law? God does not use His great and precious grace to make of none effect His law, but to establish His law. What is the decision of Paul? He says: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law. . . . For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and {the commandment then ended?--No.} I {Paul} died. . . . Wherefore the law is {standing directly in the way of my having liberty and peace?--No.} holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom. 7:7-12). {1SM 347.1}

Many at the present day say, "Believe, only believe, and live." Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

MM: True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again.

TE: SC 29 does not say that. Also, it's an absolute statement. It doens't have exceptions. It's describing the process of actual conversions.

MM: The SC 29 quote describes what happens prior to conversion. Here it is again:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

MM: Again, this rare experience does not overlook certain sinful cultivated habits that God plans to reveal to them later on when it is more convenient for them. Such an idea implicates God. It teaches that God is culpable, that God is to blame for the sinful cultivated habits they retain.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 10:25 PM

MM: No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

TE: Like smoking, drinking, or polygamy? or baptism (for those who lived before Christ made it known publicly that baptism had become a requirement). Or divorce? Or breaking the Sabbath? Or taking the Lord's name in vain? (e.g. saying "gee!" without realizing that this is short for Jesus.) Or not taking care of one's body? (e.g. not exercizing properly, or poor dietary habits)?

MM: Let’s examine your list more closely:

1. Smoking. If God chooses not to reveal this sin to people before they are born again, then that is His prerogative. It is not clearly prohibited in the Bible. In this day and age, however, it is highly unlikely that a pastor or evangelist would choose not to share it with them before they agree to be baptized.

2. Drinking. Alcohol is clearly prohibited in the Bible.

3. Polygamy. Multiple spouses is also clearly prohibited in the Bible.

4. Baptism. Jesus did not make baptism mandatory until the NT.

5. Divorce. Unremorseful, impenitent, shameless unfaithfulness and/or abandonment are just causes for divorce and remarriage.

6. Sabbath-breaking. Breaking the Sabbath is prohibited in the Bible.

7. Taking the Lord's name in vain. The third commandment is required in the Bible.

8. Not taking care of one's body. Certain aspects of diet and health are required in the Bible. Others are not so clear.

TE: Regarding the years of sinning ignorantly, there's no need for these things to take years, but they will take some time. God dispenses truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it. But He doesn't give it to us all at once. That would blow us away. He reveals things to us as we are willing and able to accept them.

MM: I believe this gracious, gradual process of revelation occurs during the long, “patient, protracted process” of conversion – before we experience the miracle of rebirth.

………………………..

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

TE: Where is there any statement in Scripture (or elsewhere) that says that God makes exceptions to how He saves people?

MM: Romans 2:13-15. Luke 23:39-43.

…………………………

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

TE: This points out that God had a plan in place to meet the sin problem, should it arise. But it says nothing about God earning the right to be able to wink at sins of ignornace.

MM: I believe it gives God the legal right to handle the sin problem in all its forms.

…………………………..

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt.

TE: The rules I've mentioned? They're not based on the fact that Jesus paid our debt. They're based on God's character. They're based on the fact that God is kind and gracious, merciful and compassionate. Jesus' death for us is based on God's character as well. Everything God does is based on His character.

MM: If Jesus had not paid our sin debt from the foundation of the world, God would have been forced, by law, to punish and destroy our first parents before the rest of us were born.

TE: Nothing is above God. God does what He pleases, based on the attributes of His character. The law is an expression of that fact. Let's not get the cart before the horse! The law does not sit above God telling Him what He can or cannot do.

MM: It’s how God established things. It is necessary to have a third party, as it were, to establish what is right and righteous. Otherwise, the Devil could accuse God of making up the rules to serve Himself. As such, the law is an unbiased witness.

TE: Regarding Jesus' buying us probation, what I believe is that had Christ not come to earth, sin would have wiped out the entire human race. For this reason, we each one, owe even our physical lives to Jesus Christ.

MM: Amen! The “entire human race” consisted of two people – Adam and Eve.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/15/07 10:30 PM

MM: No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

JB: Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. It remains therefore that what the Lord works to establish is: "faith".

MM: John, where do you stand? Does God wait to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until it is convenient for baptized church members to confess and crucify them? to acquire or accumulate the necessary "faith" (you mentioned above) to confess and crucify them?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 02:23 AM

TE: I agree with what Sister White wrote, that [baptism] is a sign of entrance into the kingdom. I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

MM: Then what does “cannot enter” (John 3:5) and “must comply” (FLB 145) mean to you?

What does, "Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone" mean to you? What I believe is that what is necessary, the one thing necessary, is faith in Jesus Christ. If faith and something else are required, then salvation is not by faith, right? So faith is necessary, but true faith will be evidenced by works, including baptism. This has been our viewpoint ("our" = SDA church) since we've been a church. It's also what Sister White wrote, as well as what Jesus tautght and what Paul taught)

Whatever “enter into the kingdom of God” and “who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” means, it is clear to me that “cannot enter” and “must comply” means baptism is required, that it is not an option.

"Required" for what? It by "required" you mean as a sign of acknowledgement, as Sister White put it, that's right. Baptism is required, as circumicision was in the past, in order to publicly be accepted as a member of the believing community.

…………………………

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

TE: Glad you recognize this!

MM: Actually, I never doubted it. I have always believed that God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages, and that Deut 14:26 is not an exception.

TE: The principles that regulate how God saves sinners are simple. "Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Salvation if by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

MM: This is only part of the formula, Tom. “You state this matter too strongly.” “God saves us under a law …”

Quote:

I've simply quoted her! Would you admonish her with her own words? That *she* (not I) is stating the matter "too strongly"? I'm simply agreeing with her that salavation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

MM: True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again.

TE: SC 29 does not say that. Also, it's an absolute statement. It doens't have exceptions. It's describing the process of actual conversions.

MM: The SC 29 quote describes what happens prior to conversion. Here it is again:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Where in this statement is there any mention of exceptions?

MM: Again, this rare experience does not overlook certain sinful cultivated habits that God plans to reveal to them later on when it is more convenient for them. Such an idea implicates God. It teaches that God is culpable, that God is to blame for the sinful cultivated habits they retain.

Yet you allow for exceptions which do the very things you say implicate God. That's odd. I know you say it's God that allows for exceptions, not you, but it is you have stated that God makes exceptions for smoking and polygamy. God never stated that. So why do you claim they are God's exceptions and not yours?

You're trying to construct a theological structure which just doesn't work. It's self-contradictory. On the one hand, how God saves is regulated by His character. On the other hand, there are exceptions to the rules. Yet God's character does not change.

Why not just stick to what the church has always taught, that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, and true faith will be manifest on works?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 07:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

No MM, your whole angle misses the mark. The way of your talk is the way of self-righteousness; precisely what the Lord is seeking to save from.

He who has set his eyes on the Lord, does not look on himself to see how many cultivated habits were overlooked or overcome. Faith looks to the Lord and lives by him. Faith, by nature of faith takes the eyes off of oneself, to dwell in the Lord.

In him we have our being, and his strength is made perfect in weakness. The victory over sin is to lose ourselves in him. God does not want us to focus on our habits, but that we should lose sight of ourselves and see only him. That is faith.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 07:59 AM

Quote:

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I'll just treat this one, at least for now (if you wish, we can look at the other one later on). How do you figure this as an exception? Paul argues that it's NOT an exception, but an example. The Gentiles show the work of the law "written in their hearts". This is the same as Paul argues elsewhere, and is echoed in Psalms (Ps. 19, for example), and John (the light which ligthens every man). Paul is arguing here that the Gentiles are without excuse because they have a knowledge of what is right and wrong. Where is the exception here?

…………………………

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

TE: This points out that God had a plan in place to meet the sin problem, should it arise. But it says nothing about God earning the right to be able to wink at sins of ignornace.

MM: I believe it gives God the legal right to handle the sin problem in all its forms.

Why? Why would God need a legal right to forgive sins of ignorance? Who gives God the right to forgive? Isn't that just something He can do because He's God?

…………………………..

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt.

TE: The rules I've mentioned? They're not based on the fact that Jesus paid our debt. They're based on God's character. They're based on the fact that God is kind and gracious, merciful and compassionate. Jesus' death for us is based on God's character as well. Everything God does is based on His character.

MM: If Jesus had not paid our sin debt from the foundation of the world, God would have been forced, by law, to punish and destroy our first parents before the rest of us were born.

TE: Nothing is above God. God does what He pleases, based on the attributes of His character. The law is an expression of that fact. Let's not get the cart before the horse! The law does not sit above God telling Him what He can or cannot do.

MM: It’s how God established things. It is necessary to have a third party, as it were, to establish what is right and righteous. Otherwise, the Devil could accuse God of making up the rules to serve Himself. As such, the law is an unbiased witness.

The devil accuses God of doing this anyway. How does God writing a law down help anything? I don't see any sense in this. In fact, this is doing the very thing you say it's designed to prevent. The law is not an unbiased witness, but rules which God made up. Why can't the devil just say that? After all, God is the one who gave the law.

TE: Regarding Jesus' buying us probation, what I believe is that had Christ not come to earth, sin would have wiped out the entire human race. For this reason, we each one, owe even our physical lives to Jesus Christ.

MM: Amen! The “entire human race” consisted of two people – Adam and Eve.

And everyone who would come from Adam. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 06:02 PM

TE: I do not agree that [baptism] is necessary to enter into the kingdom, I …

MM: Jesus didn’t add “if”, He simply said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

TE: I've simply quoted her! Would you admonish her with her own words? That *she* (not I) is stating the matter "too strongly"? I'm simply agreeing with her that salavation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

MM: The SOP makes it clear that the “faith” by which we are saved is faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Faith is never without good works.

TE: Where in [SC 29] is there any mention of exceptions?

MM: This quote reflects the “rule”. But “exceptions” are an inherent characteristic of God, not the “rule”.

TE: Why not just stick to what the church has always taught, that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, and true faith will be manifest on works?

MM: Because there are times when God doesn’t save sinners in the normal way. See Rom 2:13-15 and Luke 23:39-43.

TE: I'll just address one [on the list of sinful behavior], drinking. Is it your contention that no one who drinks (not a drunkard, but drinks occaisonally) will be in heaven?

MM: The Bible clearly prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. There are no exceptions. If, in spite of what the Bible says about it, a person chooses to drink alcohol, then whether or not they will be in heaven is up to God.

TE: And stops then? The "patient, protracted process" of conversion is to lead one to the point to where they will accept Christ as their Savior. It's not to get them to the point to where they've exhausted some list. Our salvation is in Christ!

MM: Yes, the process of conversion stops when they are converted. However, they must continue to choose daily to remain dead to self, to keep their eyes on Jesus, to abide in Him, to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. They do not work on the “list” while abiding in Jesus in the sense that God reveals more sinful cultivated habits when it is convenient for them.

TE: Paul is arguing [in Rom 2;13-15] that the Gentiles are without excuse because they have a knowledge of what is right and wrong. Where is the exception here?

MM: He’s talking about people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. That’s the exception.

TE: Why? Why would God need a legal right to forgive sins of ignorance? Who gives God the right to forgive? Isn't that just something He can do because He's God?

MM: God is obligated to save sinners in accordance with the rules He established.

TE: The devil accuses God of doing this anyway. How does God writing a law down help anything? I don't see any sense in this. In fact, this is doing the very thing you say it's designed to prevent. The law is not an unbiased witness, but rules which God made up. Why can't the devil just say that? After all, God is the one who gave the law.

MM: Satan can say whatever he wants to, but in the end he will bow down and confess he is wrong. The law will vindicate God.

TE: And everyone who would come from Adam. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

MM: How long do you think God would have delayed punishing and destroying Adam and Eve if He hadn’t given Jesus permission to pay our sin debt? Why would He allow them to live a second longer in a hopeless state, let alone bear children? To what purpose?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 06:08 PM

MM: John, where do you stand? Does God wait to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until it is convenient for baptized church members to confess and crucify them? to acquire or accumulate the necessary "faith" (you mentioned above) to confess and crucify them?

JB: No MM, your whole angle misses the mark. The way of your talk is the way of self-righteousness; precisely what the Lord is seeking to save from.

MM: Baseless accusation!

JB: He who has set his eyes on the Lord, does not look on himself to see how many cultivated habits were overlooked or overcome. Faith looks to the Lord and lives by him. Faith, by nature of faith takes the eyes off of oneself, to dwell in the Lord.

MM: “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Cor 13:5)

JB: In him we have our being, and his strength is made perfect in weakness. The victory over sin is to lose ourselves in him. God does not want us to focus on our habits, but that we should lose sight of ourselves and see only him. That is faith.

MM: Yes, staying in relationship with Jesus, keeping our eyes on Him, fellowshipping with Him, is how we overcome temptation. It is also how we mature in the fruits of the Spirit, how we become more and more like Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/16/07 07:17 PM

TE: I do not agree that [baptism] is necessary to enter into the kingdom, I …

MM: Jesus didn’t add “if”, He simply said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

MM, please don't cut up my posts and make them appear to say something I'm not saying. My "if" was for clarification as to what the meaning of what Jesus was saying was. It wasn't a conditional "if," as you are implying. Your not responding in a reasonable way here. You simply can't remove the "if" from my sentence! That's just not right.

TE: I've simply quoted her! Would you admonish her with her own words? That *she* (not I) is stating the matter "too strongly"? I'm simply agreeing with her that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

MM: The SOP makes it clear that the “faith” by which we are saved is faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Faith is never without good works.

Which is just what I said. Faith is evidenced by good works. That's what I wrote.

TE: Where in [SC 29] is there any mention of exceptions?

MM: This quote reflects the “rule”. But “exceptions” are an inherent characteristic of God, not the “rule”.

So it doesn't say anything about exceptions. Hence you can hardly use it to support a theory that has exceptions. Find a quote where she talks about exceptions in how God saves people. You won't find one. It doesn't work that way. Salvation is based upon God's character, which doesn't change.

TE: Why not just stick to what the church has always taught, that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, and true faith will be manifest on works?

MM: Because there are times when God doesn’t save sinners in the normal way. See Rom 2:13-15 and Luke 23:39-43.

I already remarked that Rom. 2:13-15 is not presenting any exception at all. Paul's language is arguing for the fulfillment of a rule (if you want to look at things in terms of rules), not as an exception to a rule.

TE: I'll just address one [on the list of sinful behavior], drinking. Is it your contention that no one who drinks (not a drunkard, but drinks occasionally) will be in heaven?

MM: The Bible clearly prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. There are no exceptions. If, in spite of what the Bible says about it, a person chooses to drink alcohol, then whether or not they will be in heaven is up to God.

So this is another exception. There's so many exceptions, that the rule isn't worth much. Is there even one example you can site where someone is on record as having been converted by having every sinful habit cultivated since birth revealed and then confessing them all? I don't know where you got such an idea from. You site sources such as SC 29, which are very well known, but no one else who reads this has the understanding about it that you have. Do you think it's possible you might be reading something into it?

TE: And stops then? The "patient, protracted process" of conversion is to lead one to the point to where they will accept Christ as their Savior. It's not to get them to the point to where they've exhausted some list. Our salvation is in Christ!

MM: Yes, the process of conversion stops when they are converted.

Big disagreement here. Maybe worth a thread.

However, they must continue to choose daily to remain dead to self, to keep their eyes on Jesus, to abide in Him, to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. They do not work on the “list” while abiding in Jesus in the sense that God reveals more sinful cultivated habits when it is convenient for them.

TE: Paul is arguing [in Rom 2;13-15] that the Gentiles are without excuse because they have a knowledge of what is right and wrong. Where is the exception here?

MM: He’s talking about people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. That’s the exception.

Paul doesn't say anything in Rom. 2:13-15 about God's saving people in a different way than He normally does, which was what I was asking for a reference for.

TE: Why? Why would God need a legal right to forgive sins of ignorance? Who gives God the right to forgive? Isn't that just something He can do because He's God?

MM: God is obligated to save sinners in accordance with the rules He established.

You say He is obligated to save sinners according to rules He has established, but that He makes exceptions to these rules. Since He's God, He can do whatever He wants, which He obviously does, since He makes exceptions to the rules He made up. That sounds pretty arbitrary, just like Satan alleges.

TE: The devil accuses God of doing this anyway. How does God writing a law down help anything? I don't see any sense in this. In fact, this is doing the very thing you say it's designed to prevent. The law is not an unbiased witness, but rules which God made up. Why can't the devil just say that? After all, God is the one who gave the law.

MM: Satan can say whatever he wants to, but in the end he will bow down and confess he is wrong. The law will vindicate God.

Except for the exceptions God makes.

TE: And everyone who would come from Adam. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

MM: How long do you think God would have delayed punishing and destroying Adam and Eve if He hadn’t given Jesus permission to pay our sin debt? Why would He allow them to live a second longer in a hopeless state, let alone bear children? To what purpose?

I don't see any connection whatsoever between what you are writing and what I'm responding to. What are you talking about? How does this have any relation about what we were talking about?

To answer your question, sin brings its own punishment, which is death. If God had not taken action to allow Adam and Eve to exist, they would have perished right away, and we would have perished along with them.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 07:10 PM

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 07:14 PM

TE: And stops then? The "patient, protracted process" of conversion is to lead one to the point to where they will accept Christ as their Savior. It's not to get them to the point to where they've exhausted some list. Our salvation is in Christ!

MM: Yes, the process of conversion stops when they are converted.

TE: Big disagreement here. Maybe worth a thread.

MM: This is one of those cases where a sentence extracted from its context is misleading. Here is what I posted:

Quote:

Yes, the process of conversion stops when they are converted. However, they must continue to choose daily to remain dead to self, to keep their eyes on Jesus, to abide in Him, to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. They do not work on the “list” while abiding in Jesus in the sense that God reveals more sinful cultivated habits when it is convenient for them.

MM: Here’s what Sister White wrote about it:

Quote:

The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Quote:

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {NL 28.1}

God will accept nothing less than unreserved surrender. Half-hearted, sinful Christians can never enter heaven. {LDE 191.5}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. (COL 330)

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. (DA 676)

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. (1 S&T 246)

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

MM: She clearly says, “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” No defective trait of character is unrevealed or uncrucified when a person completes the process of conversion.

6.” By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.”

MM: The long, patient, protracted ends in conversion. Conversion is the end product of the process of conversion. It does not go on indefinitely.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 07:15 PM

TE: Paul doesn't say anything in Rom. 2:13-15 about God's saving people in a different way than He normally does, which was what I was asking for a reference for.

MM: I believe it reflects a difference. People who have never heard of the name of Jesus and yet will be saved in heaven is very much different than people who consciously received Jesus into their hearts as their personal Saviour.

TE: You say He is obligated to save sinners according to rules He has established, but that He makes exceptions to these rules. Since He's God, He can do whatever He wants, which He obviously does, since He makes exceptions to the rules He made up. That sounds pretty arbitrary, just like Satan alleges.

MM: The exceptions God makes to “the” rule to save people do not violate “the” rule.

…………………….

TE: And everyone who would come from Adam [would have died if Jesus had not paid the sin debt]. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

MM: How long do you think God would have delayed punishing and destroying Adam and Eve if He hadn’t given Jesus permission to pay our sin debt? Why would He allow them to live a second longer in a hopeless state, let alone bear children? To what purpose?

TE: I don't see any connection whatsoever between what you are writing and what I'm responding to. What are you talking about? How does this have any relation about what we were talking about?

MM: It’s simple. If Jesus had not volunteered to pay our sin debt the human race would have ended with the punishment and death of Adam and Eve. You included “everyone who would come from Adam”, which is impossible. There would have been no offspring.

TE: To answer your question, sin brings its own punishment, which is death. If God had not taken action to allow Adam and Eve to exist, they would have perished right away, and we would have perished along with them.

MM: Again, there would have been no “we”. How can “we” perish with them since “we” did not exist?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 11:25 PM

TE: I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

MM: Jesus didn’t add “if”, He simply said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

TE: My "if" was for clarification as to what the meaning of what Jesus was saying was. It wasn't a conditional "if," as you are implying.

MM: Jesus included both baptism of water (outward) and of Spirit (inward). He did not say “if”.

I agree with what Sister White wrote. Baptism is a sign of one's having acknowledged Christ's principles. It, like circumcision, is a sign of the righteousness one has by faith. As she stated, salvation if by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Such faith is evidenced by works, but salvation is not procured by the works which accompany faith.

TE: Which is just what I said. Faith is evidenced by good works. That's what I wrote.

MM: Okay. But I believe you state it “too strongly”.

I just quoted her! If I state it "too strongly," then she states it "too strongly."

TE: So [the SC 29 quote] doesn't say anything about exceptions. Hence you can hardly use it to support a theory that has exceptions. Find a quote where she talks about exceptions in how God saves people. You won't find one. It doesn't work that way. Salvation is based upon God's character, which doesn't change.

MM: The onus upon you to supply a quote that teaches people are born again with all manner of sinful cultivated habits unrevealed and uncrucified. The SC 29 quote confirms the rule, that is, that “every” (not some or most) defective trait of character is revealed prior to rebirth. Exceptions have nothing to do with it (i.e., the rule). The rule is what it is.

If you are going to invent some new theory which our church has never taught, the onus is on you to support it.

…………………………..

TE: I already remarked that Rom. 2:13-15 is not presenting any exception at all. Paul's language is arguing for the fulfillment of a rule (if you want to look at things in terms of rules), not as an exception to a rule.
MM: Yes, “a” rule (i.e., exceptions to “the” rule”), but not “the” rule (i.e., the usual way people experience the “patient, protracted process” of conversion).

I asked for some Scripture backing up you assertion that God made exceptions to His principles in saving people, which I maintain is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. You suggested Rom. 2:13-15, but this says nothing about exceptions to how God saves. Paul says nothing about the Gentiles being saved in some other way than by faith in Christ.

………………………..

MM: The Bible clearly prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. There are no exceptions. If, in spite of what the Bible says about it, a person chooses to drink alcohol, then whether or not they will be in heaven is up to God.

TE: So this is another exception.

MM: Possibly. But I doubt it.

You cannot doubt it, unless you are willing to assert that nobody who drinks, even socially, will be saved.

If someone understands and rejects what God says about drinking alcohol, and insists on drinking it, they are guilty of willful, deliberate sin. Such are not living in a saved state. If they should die in this state they will not be in heaven. Do you disagree? Please answer the question – yes or no. Thank you.

The vast majority of Christians see nothing wrong with social drinking. See the drinking exception which apply to a great majority of Christians. There are only a very few denominations which teach abstinence, such as ours.

Of course no one who is practicing willful, deliberate sin is in a saved state, but my point is that of the sins which constitute all the sinful habits we have cultivated since birth, but a few are among those we are aware of. A few sins are recognized and repented of when one is converted; not the hundreds that would be necessary if your idea were correct. I know of no one whom God put through a vast list of recognizing sins and confessing them. The whole idea doesn't make sense. God is interested in our heart, in a willingness to learn of Him and be taught. He has no interest in overloading us all at once. His yoke is easy, and His burn is light, not overwhelming.

TE: There's so many exceptions, that the rule isn't worth much.

MM: Tom, that’s what “grace and mercy” is all about, isn’t it? In other words, God does not hold us accountable. Instead, of punishing and destroying us the instant we sin, like the rule of law requires of Him, God offers us pardon and grace through the shed of blood of Jesus Christ. Certainly we cannot say this “isn’t worth much”.

What's not worth much is the "rule" that God must reveal every cultivated sinful habit since birth.

TE: Is there even one example you can site where someone is on record as having been converted by having every sinful habit cultivated since birth revealed and then confessing them all?

MM: Again, please consider Peter, Paul, and John. They were born again without unrevealed, crucified sinful cultivated habits.

What's your grounds for asserting this? Peter was born again as recorded in John 2. ("This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him." (John 2:11). He had all sorts of problems. The same could be said of John.

Paul was converted in a moment, on the road to Damascus. There is no record of him spending the necessary hours it would have taken to confess every sinful habit he had acquired since birth. Indeed, he went away to study in the light of his conversions. No doubt God revealed many things about himself, including cultivated habits, during the time he was in Arabia.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 11:40 PM

MM: Here it is line by line. Do you agree with the points I’ve posted in response to each line?

1. “So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind.”

MM: She says it cannot be explained. It can, however, be experienced. Do you have any problem with her saying it “cannot be explained”? Yes or no, please.

Why does this need comment?

2. “A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted.”

MM: There is a process which ends in conversion. The process ends. It does not go on indefinitely.

No, I don't agree that the process ends.

3. “By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ.”

MM: During the process of conversion Jesus draws the person to Himself. During the process of conversion, the person is not saved or converted.

I couldn't say at what exact moment a person is converted.

4. “These [impressions] may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher.”

MM: During the process of conversion, before the person is saved or converted, he may do many things that Christians typically do, but they do not mean he is saved or converted.

They may be saved or converted before you think they are. Perhaps the giving of oneself to Christ begins when one starts saying "yes" to the Holy Spirit.

5. “Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus.”

MM: The person is saved and converted the instant they surrender themselves to Jesus. This “surrender” is full and complete. Nothing is unrevealed or uncrucified. All sinful cultivated habits were revealed and confessed. Here is how Sister White describes it elsewhere:

I disagree with your characterization here. She seems to me to be saying the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. What I hear her saying is that in some cases there is a dramatic event, where one gives one's self to Christ. She is specifically denying that all conversions are like this. She says *even* in these cases, where there is a dramatic event of one giving oneself to Christ, there was preparatory work of the Spirit to prepare the sinner to surrender.

However, many make the surrender without even knowing how or when it occurred.

Also notice that the surrender is described as giving oneself to Christ, not as having reached the end of a list of sins to confess.

You seem to think if the person died before the "instant" they gave themselves to Christ, they would be lost. This is not at all clear to me. If they were already responding to the Holy Spirit, already saying "yes" to God, then perhaps they would be happy if God were to take them to heaven. This is the bottom line; will a person be happy in heaven in God's presence, happy to live by the principles of God's kingdom?

Many will be converted without even having heard the name of Christ.

Well, this all seems beside the point, which is that there is no need for an exhaustive list of sins to be confessed before one can be converted. This isn't how conversion works. She doesn't describe anything like this. She describes the soul being prepared to accept Christ, to give oneself to Him.

Quote:
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {NL 28.1}

God will accept nothing less than unreserved surrender. Half-hearted, sinful Christians can never enter heaven. {LDE 191.5}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. (COL 330)

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. (DA 676)

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. (1 S&T 246)

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

MM: She clearly says, “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” No defective trait of character is unrevealed or uncrucified when a person completes the process of conversion.

I don't see how you can get from what she wrote to what you are saying. She's saying there must be an entire surrender. Every sin which is revealed must be surrendered. She doesn't say that God reveals every sinful habit cultivated since birth. That's something you came up with.

6.” By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.”

MM: The long, patient, protracted ends in conversion. Conversion is the end product of the process of conversion. It does not go on indefinitely.

What is the "this" she is talking about? It is talking about the specific cases where there is a dramatic event where one responds to the Holy Spirit, and gives oneself to Christ. The patient, protracted process is the preparation of the heart to yield to the appeal to give oneself to Christ. It has nothing to do with confessing an exhaustive long list of sins.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/18/07 11:46 PM

TE: Paul doesn't say anything in Rom. 2:13-15 about God's saving people in a different way than He normally does, which was what I was asking for a reference for.

MM: I believe it reflects a difference. People who have never heard of the name of Jesus and yet will be saved in heaven is very much different than people who consciously received Jesus into their hearts as their personal Saviour.

Paul doesn't say anything like this. He says they have a law written in their hearts. He said previously that everyone can know the graciousness of God, and should be thankful to Him, because He has revealed Himself to them. Everyone is saved by responding to the light which God reveals to them. It's the same principle for all.

TE: You say He is obligated to save sinners according to rules He has established, but that He makes exceptions to these rules. Since He's God, He can do whatever He wants, which He obviously does, since He makes exceptions to the rules He made up. That sounds pretty arbitrary, just like Satan alleges.

MM: The exceptions God makes to “the” rule to save people do not violate “the” rule.

"Exception" means to do something differently than the rule specifies. Otherwise it wouldn't be an exception. So it does violate the rule.

…………………….

TE: And everyone who would come from Adam [would have died if Jesus had not paid the sin debt]. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

MM: How long do you think God would have delayed punishing and destroying Adam and Eve if He hadn’t given Jesus permission to pay our sin debt? Why would He allow them to live a second longer in a hopeless state, let alone bear children? To what purpose?

TE: I don't see any connection whatsoever between what you are writing and what I'm responding to. What are you talking about? How does this have any relation about what we were talking about?

MM: It’s simple. If Jesus had not volunteered to pay our sin debt the human race would have ended with the punishment and death of Adam and Eve. You included “everyone who would come from Adam”, which is impossible. There would have been no offspring.

"Adam" means "man" or "human race." God foresaw those who arise from Adam's loins. We were all included in him. When God prevented Adam from perishing, He made our existence possible. It's like Paul talks about in Hebrews, when he says that Levi paid tithes in Abraham.

TE: To answer your question, sin brings its own punishment, which is death. If God had not taken action to allow Adam and Eve to exist, they would have perished right away, and we would have perished along with them.

MM: Again, there would have been no “we”. How can “we” perish with them since “we” did not exist?

The same way Levi could pay tithes in Abraham, when he didn't exist.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/19/07 02:05 AM

Tom, we are never going to see eye to eye on whether or not God deliberately waits until after we are converted and born again to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits. You are arguing vigorously against my conclusion, but you have not yet proven your conclusion.

So, let's switch gears. Please post inspired quotes (Bible or SOP) which clearly teach us that God does not reveal to us all of our sinful cultivated habits before we experience the miracle of rebirth, that He waits for a more convenient time to reveal some of them to us. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. - 02/19/07 03:04 AM

There's no need to do this. The principles of conversion are well described. They don't mention anything about the revelation of every sinful habit cultivated since birth. I could ask you to produce some inspired statement saying you don't need to hop on one leg to be saved, but this is not a helpful request.

Here's an SOP statement which lays out the principles of conversion:

Quote:

Conversion comes as we respond to the love of God revealed by Jesus Christ (not by an confessing sin from an exhaustive list).

Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.

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