II Cor 3

As I studied this parable it dawned on me that the wicked servant was charging God with being evil, and then we have God coming and agreeing with him when He said, "Thou KNEWEST that I reap where I sowed not." I thought, "Something is wrong here, because I know from the rest of the Bible that God is not like that. So, I looked u the word "knewest" in Strong's Concordance. Another translation of the word is "perceived." This makes all the difference in the world! This is the word that should have been put in. In other words, the wicked servant charges God with being evil, and God comes along and says, "If you perceived that I was like that, then the least you should have done was this..." This translation does not have God agreeing that He is evil, but merely saying, "That is your perception of me." So, changing slightly a few key words makes all the difference in the world. As soon as I get this Bible I'll show you how they interpret several difficult texts in the New Testament and by just changing slightly a few key words, the problem is cleared up, making these texts agree with the rest of the Bible. That's why I think they are right--because then these texts line up with the rest of the Bible.

Thank-you again!

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Edward F Sutton

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited October 19, 2001).]

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Edward F Sutton

Vs.7 "Now if the ministry that brought death which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not steadily gaze upon the face of Moses because of its gloriousness, a glory which was to fade away,

Vs.8 Will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Vs.9 For if the service of the condemnation; the reminder of sin, is glorious, so much more the ministry of righteousnesss; which forgives past sins, exceeds in gloriousness.

Vs.10 For what was glorious has no glory in comparison now, because of the glory that exceeds.

Vs. 11 For if that which was but passing away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts?

Vs. 12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we use great boldness of speech.

Vs. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not gaze at it, as the radiance was fading away.

Vs.14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the Law, Prohets, and Writings, because only in Messiah is it taken away; the veil taken away, and the blindness removed.

Vs.15 But even to this day, when the Law given through Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; minds.

Vs.16 However, when one turns to God, the veil is taken away."

Vs.17 Now God is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of God is, there is liberty; freedom from death.

Vs.18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholdling as in a mirror the glory of God, are being transformed into the same image, from one degree of glory to another degree of glory--which comes from God Who is the Spirit."

It seems to me that this translation is not saying that the Law is done away with, but rather now that Jesus, the Messiah is here, the veil of blindness which prohibited one from understanding the Law is removed--since Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law.

I think this translation is much more accurate because it does not give the impression that the Law is done away with.

The KJV gives the impression that the Law is done away with. But look at the Jewish Messianic translation!

"But now, in Jesus Messiah, you who were once far off, have been brought near through the blood of Messiah. For He is our peace, Whoh has made both one, and has broken down the dividing wall separating us--ABOLISHING THE ENMITY; THE HATRED AND THE OPPOSITION TO THE LAW, THE COMMANDMENETS, AND THE ORDINANCES, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace."

Notice that it is the enmity to the law-not the law--that is abolished. I think they got it straight!

The best answer to 2 Cor. 3 is found in 1SM 236-245.

To bolster the interpretation of the passage given by Ellen White, consider 2 Cor. 3:7, 11, 13, 14, and Rom. 3:31. In each verse is a Greek word, katargeo. This word is translated "done away," "abolished," and "make void" in these verses.

What this basically tells us is that Paul tells us that the law is not done away in Rom., but seems to say the opposite in 2 Cor. 3. The solution is that one passage is talking about the 10 Commandments and the other about the ceremonial law.

That's why I think the Messianic Jews are correct. I know because of other passages that Paul addresses that he definitely does not throw out the law--so we can't make Paul conflict with himself; thus these verses cannot be speaking of throwing out the moral law--but neither does Paul give good indication he is speaking of the ceremonial law. That is the problem.

Add this list below to 2 Corinthians 3 and judge by yourself the truth in it.

1. The law (functions) ends in Christ (Romans 10:4), and when you are “in Christ” (by faith), the law is no longer for you, as you are now justified by faith where the law is powerless to do because what the law can do is only revealing the SIN in you and made it alive.

2. We are dead to the law “in Christ”, that we might belong to Christ (for when we belongs to SIN and controlled by SIN, the law only aroused in us our sinful passions that bore fruits (acts of the flesh) unto death), and bear fruits of the Spirit (by living after the Spirit) - Romans 7:4,5.

3. By dying to SIN that once bounds him (when he was a law keeper), a believer was released from the law to live by the Spirit and no more by the law (Romans 7:6).

4. The law was put in charge to lead the law keepers to Christ that they might be justified by faith (what they failed through keeping the law), and when faith comes, they are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:24,25).

5. Through the law a law keeper was killed and since the law takes him as a death man, he was released from the law (authority) in order he might live for God and lives by faith (Galatians 2:19,20).

6. Get rid from the law that only put us into slavery of SIN (Galatians 4:21-30).

7. Christ abolished the law with it commandments and regulations in His flesh, to create in Him a “one new man” (a justified believer) and in this new man (Christ in him) reconciled him with God through the work of the Spirit (Ephesians 2:15,16).

8. Nailing the law to His cross and made it of no effect, in order it will be no longer against us and stood opposed to us (Colossians 2:14). (How could he reconcile us with God if the law is in effect that will only condemns us and provokes the SIN in us that is not subjected to the law of God?)

9. The law is no longer for a righteous man (by faith in Christ), but for the law-breakers and sinful etc. (1 Timothy 1:8-11).

10. The law was set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope was introduced (living by the Spirit through faith), that we might draw near to God (reconciled with God) – Hebrew 7:19.

The era before Christ was the era of the law and condemnation, all was under the law and the whole world become guilty before God (Romans 3:19). But since the cross, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11). And “God saved us not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ, so that, having been justified by His grace (through faith), we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life” – Titus 3:4-7. “And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL” (Hebrew 10:10), “since that time He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool, because BY ONE SACRIFICE HE HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER THOSE WHO ARE BEING MADE HOLY” (Hebrew 10:13).

“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come – one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there MUST ALSO BE A CHANGE OF THE LAW” – Hebrew 7:11,12.

“For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another” – Hebrew 8:7.

But God found fault with the people under the first covenant, so He made a new covenant for the believers in Christ. If the first one is the covenant of Law and obedience (that lead to condemnation and death), the second is the covenant of grace (justified by faith and live by faith under the leading of the Holy Spirit) that lead to a holy and righteous life for eternal life.

Luke told us the same thing:

The law was in effect only till John (Christ death), and since then the gospel of to live by faith is preached (Luke 16:16).

James told us the same thing: To keep the royal law, which is “Love your neighbor as your self”. What he meant here was to keep the spirit of the law (not the letter) as he understood that it could only be fulfilled by the Spirit through faith (James 2:8,18,26). But if a believer commit murder, he became a law-breaker (breaks the spirit of the law – love). He stressed his meaning by saying: “Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom” (James 2:12), a repetition of James 1:25. Surely he knew that the written law (10 commandments) is not the law that gives freedom, as in fact it keeps all law keepers under curse and prisoner of SIN.

Since Peter didn’t write anything concerning the law (to keep the 10 Commandments), I might say that he too understood the gospel of Christ: “The just shall live by faith” as can be seen in 2 Peter 1:3-8; 3:11 where he based his writings on the Divine power of God (the Holy Spirit) that will led Christ believers to a holy and righteous life through sanctification (1 Peter 1:2) and have a sincere love for the brothers (1 Peter 1:22). A fact that he has the same perception with Paul, was his warning about Paul’s letters that was hard to understand that will be destructive for those who are ignorant and unstable (2 Peter 3:16).

At last, John also said the same thing: “And this is His command, to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another” – 1 John 3:23. John knew, those who obey His command (above) lives in Christ and Christ in him (1 John 3:24), and will bore much fruits of the Spirit (John 15:1-5).

Praise God that has nullified the law for us, Christ believers, in order we might justified by faith and lives by faith.

In His love

James S.

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12 NKJV.

The old covenant saints (before Christ) were those who kept the written commandments (Torah including 10 Commandments) with faith, the new covenant saints are those who kept the spirit of the law through faith in Christ.

Both are saints, but the first one were under the law and the later are under grace.

If we say that the saints now are they who kept the 10 Commandments with faith in Christ then there are no difference with the saints of the first covenant time, all were under the law and judge by the law. And that is against what the bible say: “When there is a change of ministry there will be also a change in the law, For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another” – Hebrew 8:7.

The change is: the old covenant saints were under the law, to hear and do what the law says and judge by the law. The new covenant saints are under grace, to live by the Spirit through faith and kept the spirit of the law in heart, forgiven, made holy and perfect ONCE AND FOR ALL through ONE SACRIFICE by Christ death and resurrection that justifies all men in Him. “God will remember their sins and iniquities no more”, and the law could not judge us because we are not under the law (sin is not imputed).

So, it is true what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3: that the law kills but the Spirit gives live.

Romans 6:1,2: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to SIN, how can we live in it any longer?

If we keep the law we keep doing evil, we continue on sinning. Because when we want to keep the law, our will is overruled by the SIN in us which is stronger and dominate us and made us keep doing what we do not want to do, keep doing evil (Romans 7:7-23). Thus the fact that Christ has redeemed us ONCE AND FOR ALL become of no effect or useless, as by the law we must die again and again and Christ can not die again and again day after day to redeem us (Hebrew 7:27).

Hence, the law was put aside to give way for a new ministry, a ministry of the Spirit through faith. By the Spirit Christ believers might kept the spirit of the law in their heart and bears fruit of the Spirit that fulfils all aspects of the law both in written and the spirit. When they sins, their sins is not imputed (because there is no law that judge and condemns tem), their sins will be remember no more! But this privilege is only for those who live by faith and remain in Christ by faith as God “in Christ” has forgiven them once and for all.

If we believe this and accept the new ministry by giving away the law, we will be called the “saints” and His Spirit will lead us to all righteousness and holy life through sanctification DONE by the Spirit Himself (Romans 15:16; 1 Peter 1:2). Otherwise we remain under the law and keep doing evil as we live by SIN (SIN is our master who dominates our will)) and put ourselves out of the reach of the grace of God.

Romans 6:14 “For SIN shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.”
Galatians 5:18 ”But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.”

In His love

James S.

quote:

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But since the cross, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11).

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Since the cross?

How about since the first Adam sinned, since the foundation of the world, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11; Genesis 3:15).

How about those who were saved before Christ died on the cross including the first Adam?
Were they saved by law, or by grace?

It is obvious to me that nobody was saved by the law as those that were saved were all saved by grace.

Adam was saved by grace.

Enoch was saved by grace.

Daniel was saved by grace

All the others were saved by grace in the same way all the disciples, except for Judas, were saved by grace.

Guess what? If Judas had repented for betraying Christ as Peter repented for denying Him, Judas also would have been saved by grace.

The Everlasting Gospel in which "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9) took effect when Adam sinned, otherwise, Adam and Eve would have died the second death, however, Christ offered to take their place. This was announced to Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:15).

Both law and grace were in effect when Adam in Eve sinned.

Both law and grace were in effect when Christ took Adam and Eve's and our place on the tree of Calvary.

The law will always be in effect, however, God's grace will one day come to an end when Christ says, Revelation 22:11 and 12, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Interesting that His reward shall be given to "every man according as his work shall be."

The only thing that the saved person isn't under is the "condemnation of the law" because his works that follow shows that the saved person is walking in the "spirit of the law" as a result of this saved person being saved by grace.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited December 02, 2001).]

You wrote:

James Saptenno wrote:
quote:

But since the cross, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11).

Since the cross?
How about since the first Adam sinned, since the foundation of the world, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11; Genesis 3:15).
How about those who were saved before Christ died on the cross including the first Adam?
Were they saved by law, or by grace?

Unquote.

When did salvation appear to all men? Was it before Christ or after Christ? If Christ didn’t come and die for us, will there be any salvation for mankind? Will there be any grace for mankind?

Here is the answer:

Read Hebrews 11:4-38, and find the answer in Hebrews 11:39,40 “These were all commended for their faith, yet NONE OF THEM RECEIVED WHAT HAD BEEN PROMISED. God had planned something better for us so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT.”

Read Titus 3:4 “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.”

2 Timothy 2:1 :You then, my son, be strong in THE GRACE That IS IN CHRIST JESUS.”

God’s grace that brings salvation is in Christ Jesus; “who reconciled us to Himself through Christ Jesus and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, that God was reconciling the world to Him “in Christ Jesus”, not counting men’s sins against them.”

Quote:

The Everlasting Gospel in which "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9) took effect when Adam sinned, otherwise, Adam and Eve would have died the second death, however, Christ offered to take their place. This was announced to Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:15).
Both law and grace were in effect when Adam in Eve sinned.
Both law and grace were in effect when Christ took Adam and Eve's and our place on the tree of Calvary.

Unquote.

Was grace in effect since Eden? We have the answer above, it was in effect since the cross because God’s grace that brings salvation to all men is in Christ Jesus.

In His love

James S.

The written law was given 430 years later after Abraham was called at Sinai, and how many hundreds years after Eden. And since this law was in effect, all men were under the law.

Romans 5:13 “For before the law was given; SIN was in the world. But SIN is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who DID NOT SIN BY BREAKING A COMMAND, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the One to come.”

Before the Torah was given, SIN (self-love) was in the world, it is men’s nature, and it is they. This SIN is the source of all desires of the flesh and produce acts of the flesh. But this SIN and the sins committed IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT if the Law is not given! Because there is none to judge and condemn men. Nevertheless, death reigned since Adam till Moses even over those who did not break a command. Why, because their SIN was the SIN of falling short, self-love that was against God’s agape love. If there is no grace (through Christ) no one might be saved and live except through keeping the written law that gives life for those who obey (Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12). But since no one could fulfil the demands of the law (the spirit of the law – love), all men were under condemnation and under curse of the law, eternal death as wages of SIN.

Now we know that the PROMISE was based on grace that will come through Christ Jesus after He fulfils His mission. And in Him by faith, this grace that brings salvation was for all men who believe. The law was added to reveal the SIN in us, condemn us and kill us and lead us to Christ to receive God’s grace in Him. And being “in Him” by faith we remain in His grace, the law that kills and only reveals our SIN and made it alive was put asides; came to an end and faded away. But the spirit remains in our hearts, as it is the fruit of the Spirit that lives in us and led our life. The Spirit that was promised for those who believe.

The law that condemns and kills could not work together with grace. That’s why “the former regulation is set aside because it was WEAK and USELESS (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced (the ministry of grace and the promise of the Spirit), by which we draw near (reconciled) to God (in Christ by faith).

How could the law that condemns and kill stand side by side with grace? The law is not based on faith and the deeds of the law are the fruit of SIN in us, comes from SELF- love. On the contrary, to remain in His grace we must have faith in Christ, as the grace of God is IN CHRIST. If you take the one, you would not have the other, you could not have both!

“If you are led by the Spirit (live by faith and remain in His grace) you are not under the law (to hear and do what the law says that put you under it judgment and condemnation).” – Galatians 3:18.

“SIN will not be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

That is so clear and true that no one could deny except an unbeliever.

In His love

James S.

The law will always be in effect, however, God's grace will one day come to an end when Christ says, Revelation 22:11 and 12, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
Interesting that His reward shall be given to "every man according as his work shall be."
The only thing that the saved person isn't under is the "condemnation of the law" because his works that follow shows that the saved person is walking in the "spirit of the law" as a result of this saved person being saved by grace.

Unquote.

Because this was said to John, it will covers all men since Adam till the last person born in the end of time. Thus, it is true that the rewards would be according to the works. Because there were many who never hear the gospel, who have not the law but Christ died for him too. Their works will be their judge, were they living for themselves or did they have love for their fellowman.

And Christ believers will be judged too according to their works, NOT BASED ON THE LAW but on their FAITH. Were their works based on SELF or were it based on LOVE as fruit of the Spirit.

“By their fruit you will recognize them” – Matthew 7:20.

“Remain in Me, and I will remain in you (a life of the JUST in Christ that lives by faith). No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in Me AND I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing” – John 15:4,5.

How true! Neither can we bear fruit (of the Spirit) unless we remain in Christ and He in us by the Spirit. If we remain in Him (by faith) He will remain in us by the Spirit and we will bear much fruit (of love). Without HIM, we ourselves can do nothing, our works would bear “fruit” which are the acts of the flesh that was produce by SIN in us that dominate us.

Because of our FAITH we remain in Him and He in us, our “works” are His works in us by the Spirit, it is called fruits of the Spirit. If the law is an obligation to keep, SIN will overruled our will, we have no faith in our deeds as the law is not of faith, and the “works” are no less then ‘acts of the flesh” that was based on SELF-LOVE that is the SIN in us.

Is a law keeper, then, Christ faithful believer? NO! Because a believer lives by faith and a law keeper lives by the law; a believer in Christ has the Spirit of Christ in him but a law keeper has SIN in him, dominating his will (that will obey the law) and controls his life bearing “fruits” that are acts of the flesh.

Thus if judge by the “works”; the work of a law keeper is not of faith and everything that does not come from faith comes from SELF that is SIN. But works of a faithful believer are “fruits of the Spirit’, as he has faith in Christ and trust Him that the Spirit in him will lead him to all righteousness and holy life, because it was not his own ‘works” based on SELF, but the “works” of the Spirit that “do the willing and the doing of God in him.”

Whose “works” would be accepted? Choose the right way of living! The bible said: “The just shall live by faith.”

In His love

James S.

quote:

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Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

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It says "as it is written."

One old testament reference that says that is:

quote:

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Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

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What then becomes of the law?

quote:

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Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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The law is established through faith.

Where is this law established?

quote:

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Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write IT in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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"After those days." What days is this referring to?

"I will put MY LAW." What Law is this referring to?

"In their inward parts, and write IT in their hearts." Where is this LAW placed and written? Again,what Law is this?

Here it is again in the New Testament:

quote:

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Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put MY LAWS into their mind, and write THEM in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

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Again, what law, when, and where?

Faith, without the resulting works of the LAW placed in the minds and written into the hearts of His faithful people, is dead.

quote:

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James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

---

His faith is revealed by his works which is the resulting obedience to His Holy Law.

No, we are not saved by obedience the Law. We are saved by grace through faith which results in obedience to His Law, not to be saved, but rather, because we are saved through faith in Him.

[quote]
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That is what Ephesians 2:8,9 tells me.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited December 03, 2001).]

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,{for if we are Christ's, we are Abraham's seed Gal.3:29}

Heb.11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[Abrahams faith was counted to him for rightousness.Romans4:3])
2 For by it the elders(fathers of Isreal) obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him(God: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews is called the faith chapter, and rightly so.
Every name listed there saw the promise, claimed it and it was accounted to them as if they had already received it, and they all lived before the cross.

Faith has always been the way to salvation, works could never earn it.
As James tells us, we show our 'faith by our works',James2:18.

Remember:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Yesterday, today and forever it remains thus.

IUf no law existed before Sinai, then how could there be sin?
The written law says that "Thou shalt not bear false witness", literaly, You shall not tell a lie, yet Satan is called a liar and the father of it,{John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar , and the father of it.}
if the law did not exist before Sinai, how could he have been a liar from the beginning.
He lied to Eve in the garden, didn't he tell her she shall not surely die? even after God had told them they would.

The decalogue is a written form of the law that has been in effect for eternity, past, present and future.. God's character is reflected in it.
Without law is no sin, so, by this reasoning, God punished our first parents illegaly, since the law did not exist until Sinai..
He also punished Cain without a law, remember, Cain killed Abel, no law, no sin, so, he never broke a law that didn't exist at the time, so, how come God punished him?
There was no law to judge him by, or was there?

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Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

What then becomes of the law?

quote:
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Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE establish the law.
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The law is established through faith.

Unquote.

Do we, then, nullify the law by faith? Not at all! Rather, WE uphold the law” – NIV.

You made a wrong interpretation of this verse. It doesn’t say the law is established through faith, but it says “we” established the law. Who are this “we?” They are sinners justified in Christ, the just and righteous people who have faith in Christ but in them selves were sinners.

“Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not te God of gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised (law keepers) by faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles sinners) through the same faith” – Romans 3:29,30.

Thus if law keepers (the Jews) were sinners justified by faith, the Gentiles were also sinners justified by faith. Thus, faith could not nullify the law, as it is still necessary to lead many other sinners (Law keepers and unbelievers) to Christ. “We” established the law for “them”, ONLY Christ has the authority to nullify the law as He was the lawgiver, and this dispensation is only in Him for those who believe.

How could faith establish the law, as faith comes from the Spirit that lives in a believer, and the job of the Spirit is to put death to SIN (Romans 8:2-4,13)? Meanwhile keeping the law is done by SIN, produced by SIN, because the law is not of faith and whatever that does not come from faith is SIN or comes from SELF.

That’s why a law keeper (such as Paul the Pharisee) might claim himself blameless against the written code, against the legalistic righteousness of the law, but failed to fulfil the spirit of the law as his sinful nature was SELF LOVE that is the SIN in him, meanwhile the spirit of the law is LOVE that seeks no SELF (agape).

Thus, “we” establish the law for those law keepers, unbelievers, murderers, liars etc. according to 1 Timothy 1:8-11 because these sinners still need Christ and must be led to Christ for their redemption and salvation. But the law is no longer for “us”, the righteous believers in Christ.

In His love

James S.

Is there any OTHER obedience among the Christians? Yes, there is! It is an OBEDIENCE TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW ENGRAVED ON STONE TABLETS THAT KILLS.

Is there any similarity or differences between obedience of faith and obedience to the law? Yes, there are!

The similarity is:

1. Both are God’s commandment.
2. It is a standard of living for His believers.

The differences are:

1. One is in effect and the other one is a past, faded and was taken away.
2. One is for Christ believers that have faith in Him, one is for unbelievers and law breakers.
3. One is for them that are in Christ, the other one is for them that seeks Christ.
4. One comes from the Spirit that works in us (to do the will and the act of God), and the other one comes from SIN (“whatever is not of faith is SIN and the law is not based on faith” .
5. The Spirit gives live but the wages of SIN is death.
6. One bore fruits of the Spirit, the other one acts of the flesh.
7. One is under grace (God will remember their sins and iniquities no more), the other one is UNDER THE LAW JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION.
8. One is IN CHRIST, the other one is UNDER CURSE.
9. One is a FREE MAN, the other one a SLAVE TO SIN.

And maybe some body else might add the list.

Obedience of faith is fruits of the Spirit, the spirit of the law written not by ink but by the Spirit not on stone tablets but on the tablets of heart.

Obedience to the law is act of the flesh, because it could only obey the letter and fails to fulfil the spiritual demands of the law.

In His love

James S.

WHO are those controlled by the sinful nature, who are those that live in the flesh? They are those who have the “works of the flesh.”

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are manifested, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such alike;”

These all iniquities and wickedness varies in “deeds” but based on the same PRINCIPLE, which is ‘SELF LOVE.” It comes from the mind that was sets on SELF, and since SELF-LOVE is the SIN that dominates us, our character that falls short of the glory of God or His agape love, then these works of the flesh is done by SIN.

“Now, the law is not based on faith, but who DOES all these things will live by them” – Galatians 3:12.

So, then, if keeping the law doesn’t require faith, WHO does the deeds of the law, who does the OBEDIENCE of the law?

There is only SIN in me, it is me, it is my nature. And so, if “Whatever is not of faith is SIN” – Romans 14:23, then the one who does the obedience of the law is the SIN in me, it is ME my SELF.

What then SIN can do regarding obedience to the law? It can only fulfil the LETTER OF THE LAW with deeds that conforms or is based on SELF-LOVE. Do these “deeds” please God? NO! “Those controlled by the sinful nature (his deeds) can not please God.” Why not? Because it was based on SELF, and not on FAITH, there is no “love agape” in these deeds except “self love.” This proves that the deeds were done by an UNBELIEVER.

That’s why “the letter kills”, the ministry that was engraved on stone tablets lead to death. Because it fulfils only one aspect of the law: deeds of the law according to the letter, but fails to fulfil the other demands of the law which is the principle of the law: LOVE.

Thus, it is true that “all who rely on observing the law are under CURSE” – Galatians 3:10, because NO ONE is justified by the law and all were under condemnation. As these deeds is not based on faith then this is a proof that the doers of the law has no faith in Christ, they are not IN CHRIST yet.

And if they are not “in Him” (even though they claim that they believe Him), is there grace for them? The bible answer this with: “You then, My son, be strong in the GRACE THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS” – 2 Timothy 2:1.

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace” – Ephesians 1:7.

And since they are not “in Him” yet, but still “in the law” that should bring them to Him, but because of their UNBELIEF, they like more to be in the law, to live within the law boundaries, to be “under the law” guidance rather then to be LED BY THE SPIRIT. Then, what will happen with them? If they reject God’s grace, if they reject to be “in Him” by giving up the law (giving up SELF), could they then be saved through their obedience to the law?

“By observing the law no one will be justified “ and “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law” – Galatians 2:16; 3:11.

And if there are no “justification by the law”, what then REMAINS for them?
“All who sin under the law will be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.

How sad and hopeless are they who set their mind on the flesh, who live not according to the Spirit but to the sinful nature, who wants to obey the letter of the law that kills.

And the law really KILLS, because under it judgment, the wages of SIN is death. All law keepers lives in SIN because they are under the law and not under grace (Romans 6:14).

But, we, believers in Christ, “having believed, we were marked in Him with a ZEAL, the promised Holy Spirit” – Ephesians 1:13, and sets our mind on what the Spirit desires – Romans 8:5.

Praise God that :”The just shall live by faith” and this faith we have “in Christ” who will lead us by living in us.

In His love

James S.

2 Corinthians 5:7 “We live by faith, not by sight.

Hebrew 12:2 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.”

What is seen and what is unseen?

The letter of the law engraved on stone tablets and the deeds according to the letter, this can be seen, and what is seen is temporary. This is a life by sight, focused on SELF and on what the letter of the law desire.

Jesus is unseen, His Spirit is unseen and the fruit of the Spirit is unseen but fills the hearts of his believers. The world might see the fruit of the Spirit in the “deeds” of love, but they can’t see the “source” of these deeds as it is not engraved on stone tablets or written with ink, but it is written on the tablets of our heart by the Spirit. And what is unseen is eternal. This is a life by faith, fixing our eyes on Jesus that is unseen, setting our mind onwhat the (unseen) Spirit desire.

In His love

James S.

Whether we establish it or not, the fact is that the law is established and not nullified.

Who is we? Every believer in Jesus Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, is we.

I have read through this topic and I feel that your comments about the law are a little off balance.

By balance, I mean that your posted comments here, seem to over emphasize the fact that the law does not save us.

As Seventh day Adventists, we have often had to endure accusations of being "law-keepers," and I am not sure if this is what you are thinking or not; but when you consider the following verse, and other related Scriptures; it would be really hard to prove from the Bible that the law was somehow lessened in it's importance, because of Calvary.

Here is the verse:

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. {it: or, him}

I hope you are not trying to make the law of God dishonourable, just to try and prove that we are saved by grace. Grace does not need proof. But, it does need the law, or else grace is not needed.

If I have mis-judged your comments, please forgive me, and let us know what you are thinking.

The reasons why God's law can never be lessened, or abolished, is because His law, that is, especially the Ten Commandments; are a Biblical transcript of His character; and who He is

For eg.

1) a> God is just: Rom.3;26
b> God's law is just: Rom.7:12

2) a> God is true: Jo.3:33
b> God's law is true: Neh.9:13

3) a> God is pure: 1 Jo.3:3
b> God's law is pure: Ps.19:7-8

There are many more examples I wil post later if you are interested.

The law is the gospel concealed
The gospel is the law revealed

The law is the gospel fulness delayed
The gospel is the law portrayed

The law is the gospel contained
The gospel is the law maintained

The law is the gospel sighted
The gospel is the law lighted

The law is Christ-designed
The gospel is Christ-enshrined

The gospel of our Lord AND Savior, Jesus Christ the righteous, is wonderfully simple, and simply wonderful!

Daryl.

We establish the law and that is a fact! For whom? That is the question?

Christ abolished the law in Him and that is a fact? For whom? For us, His believers IN ORDER we might live by FAITH. Otherwise, being under the law we will only do the obedience of the letter based on SELF-LOVE or the SIN in us. And that will made us forever under curse, Christ died in vain.

In His love

James S.

As Seventh day Adventists, we have often had to endure accusations of being "law-keepers," and I am not sure if this is what you are thinking or not; but when you consider the following verse, and other related Scriptures; it would be really hard to prove from the Bible that the law was somehow lessened in it's importance, because of Calvary.
Here is the verse:
Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. {it: or, him}

Unquote.

Brother David, the law is not lessened in it’s important, it is ABOLISHED and TAKEN AWAY for Christ believers. There is no more law for those who are “in Christ” to obey and be under the law! If you think differently, please clarify and refute one by one the verses I have given above posted on December 01.

You quote Isaiah 42:21 that was said in the Old covenant time, if it was meant as an indication that men must keep it, then it was really meant for the people of that time. For now, it is over and finish.

Quote:

The reasons why God's law can never be lessened, or abolished, is because His law, that is, especially the Ten Commandments; are a Biblical transcript of His character; and who He is

Unquote.

The law is a transcript of His character but the law is not HIM.
The law demands obedience for a reward of eternal life, but condemn with eternal death for those who disobey. On the contrary God judge with love, and being under His grace He “remember our sins and iniquities no more.”
The law guides men from outward with external obedience; an obedience to the LETTER OF THE LAW, but CONDEMN men for their failure in obeying the spirit of the law “love agape”, God’s character as the principle of the law, because those who keep the law their obedience was based on SIN or self-love and not of faith.
Only by faith through the Spirit that leads men from inside, both the letter and the spirit of the law is fulfilled. It is God who is in you who does this all.

Who needs a law anymore?

In His love

James S.

For obedience:
“Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and My judgments; WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM; I am the Lord” – Leviticus 18:4,5

For disobedience:
“Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them” – Deuteronomy 27:26.

According to Paul:
Romans 7:10 “I found that the very commandment that was INTENDED TO BRING LIFE actually brought death.” (NIV).

Galatians 3:21 “………..For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.”

What will we learn from those verses above?

1. The law was given with the intention that the law keepers (Israel) might be redeemed from the death through their perfect obedience and rewarded with life eternal.
2. But the fact that Christ did come and redeemed mankind, we knew that the law could not save (redeem) the law keepers through their obedience and justify them as a righteous person that have the right to claim life eternal as their reward.

Did God know that NO MAN would pass the judgment of the law for righteousness so that all men will be found guilty and must die because of their sins? Yes, He knew! If He knew that, why then God gave mankind (Israel) a law that they could not keep and fulfil it demands? What was His REAL intention? Even there is no law STILL all men must die because of SIN was already in the world. IOW without law or with a law death reigned in the world (Romans 5:12-14). So, what was God real intention by giving mankind His holy law that no one could keep?

To SHOW HIS GREAT LOVE AND MERCY, that He is a God with LOVE that seeks NO SELF. And to REVEAL the REAL CHARACTER of Satan, unrevealing his LOVE FOR SELF.

And God has shown mankind and the whole universe His great love - mercy and grace through Jesus Christ the Son of God that came to redeem mankind with His death.

In His love

James S.

Because the law is holy, good and just, it was a transcript of His character, it was based on His principle that ruled heaven and the whole universe. The law has a principle that conforms with the principle of the kingdom of God; LOVE THAT SEEKS NO SELF (agape).

“But men were carnal, unspiritual and sold under SIN.” Men were slaves to SIN, men have the principle of the world as their nature that it origin comes from the master of the world, Satan and his SELF-LOVE principle.

Thus, God could not give a law that conforms to the principle of the world, “I am who I am”, and He is agape.

Back again to God’s real intention in giving mankind (Israel) His holy law, which is to show the world and the whole universe His great love, mercy and grace through the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that redeems and saves us, we come to know that the purpose or function of the law does not lay on our obedience or disobedience (IOW our performance) but lays on our knowledge and acceptance of the plan of salvation.

Because there is no difference, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. NO ONE could be saved through keeping the law, and so, obedience or disobedience doesn’t matter. In God’s eyes we REMAIN sinners and for the law sake all law-keepers are sinners and were slave to SIN.

But through Christ Jesus, God introduced His great love – mercy and grace that saves mankind. In Christ Jesus, God released men from their slavery and bondage to SIN and granted them with life eternal as a gift. Two things that man could not get from keeping the law.

Then, what is the REAL purpose of the law?

To introduce Christ, the love of God, to lead law-keepers to Christ for their redemption and salvation after they had been judge and condemn to death by the law (no matter they obey or disobey) for their SIN and sins.

In His love

James S.

The law is holy, good and just but to compare with the One that would come, the law is no less then a shadow and not the real thing. It seems that it would give life (through obedience) but in fact the law could only condemn and kill the law keeper with death sentence (no matter they obey or disobey), but Christ – the Real Thing – judge with love – mercy and grace and in Him there is life.

When God proclaimed His covenant and brought in the ministry of law and obedience that was engraved on stones tablets, men (Israel) were being lead to Christ through their knowledge of SIN and their failure in keeping it with an obedience that might satisfy the demands of the law both in the spirit and in the letter.

Some of them knew the purpose of the law, and resting their hope to the One that would come, they obeyed God with love and faith that comes from the Spirit. But some others have wandering away from faith and by erecting their own righteousness, they stumbled on the “corner stone” and didn’t enter His rest.

“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons” – Galatians 4:4,5.

And since then, a new covenant and a new ministry came in effect, a covenant of GRACE and the ministry of the Spirit. “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect) and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God” – Hebrew 7:18.

“The ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone…….was fading away, to be substituted with the ministry of the Spirit of the living God that gives life” – 2 Corinthians 3:3,6-11.

The old covenant with it ministry ends in Christ, shadow met the body. A better hope was introduced through Christ and His ministry of the Spirit that reconcile mankind to God in Him (Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 1:22).

When the law made nothing perfect, when the law only kills the law keepers, when Christ has abandon the law that kills and give men a new means of worship that gives life through justification by faith as a free gift; WHY should there be any needs to be under the law again? Why is there any works needed when works means nothing (for salvation)? Either you keep the law or you break the law, either you obey or disobey, you gain nothing except death. Because under God’s holy law, you are a sinner that deserve death as the wages of SIN. And since it is a fact that you remain a sinner till Christ come for your glorification and putting on a glorified body, keeping the law will do us no good but harm. In Christ we were released from the law (obligation) and Christ in us sets us free from SIN and condemnation (Romans 7:4,6; 8:1,2). What more is needed? Nothing! Except our FAITH! Because with faith we show the world that we know God and accept His plan of salvation, we believe because we understand God’s way in saving men. It does not lay on our obedience or disobedience to His holy law, but lays on our faith in Him.

Thus, GET RID OF THE SLAVE WOMAN and her sons (law and SIN) and be not entangled with the yoke of bondage. Christ has SET you FREE!

Keeping the letter of the law shows only that you have no faith in Christ.

In His love

James S.

If sin here refers only to the transgression of the letter of the law, then many of the law keepers will be sinless through their obedience. We have some examples from the bible such as Saul the Pharisee (Phil. 3:6) and the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-26.

But as “the whole world become guilty before God because all men has sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, besides it was a fact that Christ came and died to redeem mankind; we come a conclusion that sin is not only a transgression to the letter of the law but also a transgression to the spirit of the law. And in the case of “sin is a transgression to the law” it refers to the nature of SIN that transgressed the spirit of the law.

We all agree that the spirit of the law is love that seeks no self or love agape, the nature of God. Then what else is a transgression to the nature of God if it is not SELF-LOVE.

Thus, SELF-LOVE transgressed the nature of God, self-love is against the character of God. “Self-love” falls short of God’s agape love, which is the glory of God.

Conclusion: SIN as a transgression to the law covers both the transgressions to the letter and also to the spirit of the law.

In His love

James S.

Faith is fruit of the Spirit, and sin is a transgression to the law.

We may say then “Everything that is not fruit of the Spirit, transgress the law.”

IOW, all “deeds” or “works” of a believer, when it is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is sin or a transgression to the law. And when the “work” is not fruit of the Spirit, then it is the deeds of the flesh. Because the deeds of the flesh is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit. One was based on self-love and the other was based on agape love.

Next in Galatians 3:12 we read: “the law is not based on faith but who “does” these things will live by them.”

Is there any one on earth that “does” the ‘things” required by the law? No one, but Christ! That means law keepers are those who breaks the law, otherwise they might live by their obedience and Christ doesn’t need to come and die to redeem them (Leviticus 18:4,5; Galatians 2:21).

The law is not based on faith and whatever does not come from faith is sin! “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!” – Romans 7:7. So, if the law is not sin, then the deeds of the law that is sin.

I believe this must be a shock for the law keepers. But, is this true?

Since we agree that only Christ is sinless and perfect before the law, on the contrary all men has sinned so that no one would be justified by the law because of no one is righteous before the law (they might be perfect against the letter of the law but all break the spirit of the law), then it is true that the deeds of the law keepers transgressed the law. The deeds of the law keepers is sin! On the contrary the fruit of the Spirit is perfect and fulfils the demands of the law both in the letter and also in the spirit, and this fruit of the Spirit is based on faith. The just shall live by faith!

Why are the deeds of the law keepers (their obedience to the law) transgressed the law? Because the deeds was an act based on self-love, done by the SIN in us. It was not an act that comes from love (agape) as fruit of the Spirit. Thus obedience to the law only results in deeds that is the acts of the flesh. Obedience to the law is sin! The deed of the law is sin! No matter you obey or disobey the law, all men has sinned and must die.

That’s why, Paul tried so hard to explain the gospel of Christ regarding the law, that the law which is engraved on stone tablets kills, it is a ministry of death that ends in Christ, abolished in Christ and so on. That the law is no longer for the righteous believers in Christ because it would only lead man off from faith and puts him under the law judgment and condemnation with eternal death as its wages.

Christ has set us free from the obligation to keep the law in order we might live by faith and released from the power of SIN that deceived us through our law keeping Romans 7:11).

In His love

James S.

When you say that the law is obsolete, are you saying that we now have license to do whatever we want?

When you say that we are saved by faith alone, what is your definition of faith? If the law no longer applies to Christians, how is our faith shown?

We must study the whole to understand the part, and perhaps this is an area that needs to be relooked at in order to fully understand. This is a lawyer writing - I work for lawyers, you sometimes have to look hard to understand the whole context.

I look forward to your answers.

I do not think I fully understand what you are trying to say.... If we continue on in Romans 7, v. 16 Paul says "...I consent unto the law that it is good"v. 22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man". Paul is talking about two laws in this chapter - see v. 25 - the law of God and the law of sin...

Unquote.

The law of God is holy, just and good.
The law of SIN in our members opposes the law of God; it doesn’t subject to the law of God and never can be.

Paul delights in the law of God after the inward man, in his inner being, in his mind. Is this the mind of a man that sets his mind on the Spirit or on the flesh? If he sets his mind on the flesh, he will not be delighted in the law of God, it oppose him. So, this is the mind of a man who sets his mind on the Spirit, who sets his mind on what the Spirit desires. This is a man who lives after the Spirit through faith.

But in his members Paul see another law, the law of SIN that took him captive and made him a slave of SIN. And when this two forces met in the mind of Paul, the force of the Spirit and the force of SIN that conflicts to each other, he came to a conclusion: “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the on to the other; SO THAT YE CANNOT DO THE THINGS THAT YE WOULD” – Galatians 5:17.

What are the things that Paul wants to do? If he wants to satisfy the flesh, would be there any conflict? No, that is his nature! Then the “thing” Paul wants to do is not to satisfy the flesh but to please God. And if he wants to please God by his law obedience, he CAN NOT DO THAT! What he can do is only breaking the law!

“So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of SIN”- Romans 7:25.

Paul can only serve the law of God in his mind, all what he can do is having “a desire” to keep/obey the law, but the deeds remain acts of the flesh. He looks as an obedient law keeper but in fact he is a law-breaker, a sinner.

Quote:
When you say that the law is obsolete, are you saying that we now have license to do whatever we want?
Unquote.

The gospel of Christ is “the just shall live by faith” that nullifies the authority of the law in Him. But although there is no law to keep, shall we live in SIN, shall we serve SIN and do whatever the flesh desires? By no means! (Romans 6:1,15; Galatians 5:13). And how could we serve SIN when through faith the Spirit in us who does the “willing and the doing of God?”

Through a life led by the Spirit we will have fruit of the Spirit, the love of God that seeks no self that was imparted to us. This (agape) love will substitute our self-love. The love of God sets us free from hate, anger, pride, selfish ambition, ego, jealousy, love for money, idolatry, sexual immorality, impurity. The love of God sets us free from self-love, and fills our heart with joy, happiness, peace, patience, kindness, sympathy, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Quote.
When you say that we are saved by faith alone, what is your definition of faith? If the law no longer applies to Christians, how is our faith shown?
Unquote.

We have been justified by faith in Christ, we believe Him and accept Him as the Son of God, Redeemer and Savior of mankind and we believe His gospel. Now, as a righteous believers (by faith) in Christ we should live by faith alone; “the just shall live by faith,” because through our faith Christ Spirit will live in us and lead our life. I am in Christ (by faith) that justifies me and saved me, Christ in me working out His love for my fellow man. And the first but important step that shows our faith is: we believe that the law is no longer for us (1 Timothy 1:8-11), because in Christ He sets us free from the obligation to keep and obey the written law in order the spirit of the law might be written in our heart by the Spirit that lead our lives.

In His love

James S

quote:

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.....because in Christ He sets us free from the obligation to keep and obey the written law in order the spirit of the law might be written in our heart by the Spirit that lead our lives.

---

What do you mean by the spirit of the law?

In His love

James S.

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Saptenno:
. . . And the first but important step that shows our faith is: we believe that the law is no longer for us (1 Timothy 1:8-11), because in Christ He sets us free from the obligation to keep and obey the written law in order the spirit of the law might be written in our heart by the Spirit that lead our lives.

---

How then, is my life different from anyone elses? For they do not keep the law either - they have no desire and see no need to.... If I throw out the law, I throw out a lot of what the law means. The law points us to Christ and gives us focus. Will I be saved by keeping the law? No, but will I be saved if I don't keep the law?

He asked two questions and received two answers:

1 - Will we be saved by keeping the law? Everybody said no.

2 - Will we be lost by not keeping the law? Everybody said yes, however, the answer is also no, for if we can be lost by not keeping the law, then we should be able to be saved by keeping the law.

What, then, is the problem here?

In Romans 3:31, Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

How, then, can anybody say that the law has been abolished, or made void? Our response should be, "God forbid: yea we establish the law" through faith. Also, don't forget that faith without works is dead.

What is the works that is the result of genuine faith? Establishing the law.

How then do we establish the law? By being obedient to the law out of love for Christ as a response to our faith in Him.

It's so simple that even a child should be able to understand it.

Why do we make something that should be such simple truth so complicated?

What, then, is the problem here?
In Romans 3:31, Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
How, then, can anybody say that the law has been abolished, or made void? Our response should be, "God forbid: yea we establish the law" through faith. Also, don't forget that faith without works is dead.
What is the works that is the result of genuine faith? Establishing the law.

Unquote.

How could faith establish the law? Faith leads us to live after the Spirit, to accept Christ Spirit in our heart. And the job of the Spirit is to eradicate SIN that is SELF-LOVE and replace it with God’s agape love.

Meanwhile, law obedience comes from our own desire to please God. It is our SELF that performs this obedience, that’s why we could only fulfil the legalistic righteousness as per the letter, but fails to fulfil the spirit of the law. Because our deeds of the law were based on self-love, the SIN in us that dominates us. Only through the Spirit we might fulfil the spirit of the law. And He does it all alone, the Spirit can’t work together in a joint forces with SIN to perform the law obedience. They are in conflict with each other.

Genuine faith is establishing the Spirit in the heart, and the Spirit will sets the mind to what the Spirit desires, not only that, the Spirit will do also the “doing”, He doesn’t trust you enough to let you do the doing (Philippians 213). Sanctification is done solely by the Spirit, what is need from us is faith.

The law is not of faith, and whatever that does not comes from faith is SIN or comes from SELF, based on SELF-LOVE.

But the verse said “WE establish the law” and not FAITH establish the law!

Who are these we? The righteous believers in Christ, who were released from the law obligation in Christ, but established the law for those law-breakers and unbelievers so that they all might be led to Christ.

In His love

James S.

Sarah Moss.

There is really no difference between a law keeper that obey and law breakers and unbelievers, in fact they were all the same “law breakers!” You keep and obey the law, still you are a law breaker.
No one will be saved by their law keeping doesn’t mean that because Christ has redeemed us then the way of salvation is by faith in Christ even though they might keep and obey the law perfectly. Justification then MUST be by faith, even though you might keep the law perfectly. It is not so!

Because no one can keep and obey the law perfectly to fulfil the demands of the law, Christ must come and die to redeem those law-breakers and release them from death penalty. Who believe Him will have their justification (by faith as a free gift), a justification that they could never attain from their obedience to the law.

That is the reason that Christ released his believer from the authority of the law and the obligation to keep it. Because the law made nothing perfect, the law that was engraved on stone tablets kills.

Once you believe Christ as your Redeemer and Savior, you acknowledge that you have been breaking the law and will keep breaking it, so Christ sets you free from the law in Him. And the law has fulfilled its function in bringing you and leading you to Christ for redemption and salvation because all the time what you could do was breaking the law through your obedience.

And when you are in Christ now by faith, why do you seek again the law to point you and lead you to Christ? Is there any other Christ? This means that you didn’t believe the person to whom the law lead you to, and keep seeking Christ through your law keeping.

Will I be saved by keeping the law? No, but will I be saved if I don't keep the law? YES!

The above quote is for those who have faith in Christ. There is no law for you to keep and your obedience is not needed because it will be only filthy rags. What is required from you is to have FAITH, FAITH AND FAITH. Your unquestionable trust in God for the things that is unseen and for things that you hope for that needs no proof and evidence. And you will have fruit of the Spirit, because just then the Spirit can work in you to lead your life and working out the willing and the doing of God.

The Just shall live by faith, and if they draw back, God will have no pleasure in them.

It doesn’t matter that you keep or break the law, because before the law you remain a law-breaker that must die (make you know the need for Christ). But it does matter that you have faith or not.

In His love

James S

If so, then are you not in effect saying that a born again Christian will continue in sin?

Are you not also aware that sin is the transgression of God's law?

__________________________________
John 15:12 This is my commandment,
That ye love one another,
as I have loved you.

Daryl

Christ came to supervise a new ministry under a new covenant that is the Covenant of Grace and the ministry of the Spirit that gives life.

What is the Covenant of Grace? “I will remember their sins and iniquities no more!”
What is the ministry of the Spirit? “I will put My laws in their hearts, and will write them on their minds!”

The Old Covenant was based on the obedience to the letter, but the new one on the Spirit. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Now, if Christ believers that were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) as a sign of faith, must they not continue their life with a life after the Spirit? Yes, they must! Because it is an order: “The Just shall live by faith”, and a life by faith is a life after the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law that was engraved on stone tablets is no longer needed and necessary, it was a sign of SIN. You don’t believe that? Here is the proof!

“The law is not based on faith” and “Everything that does not come from faith is sin” – Galatians 3:12 & Romans 14:23.

To keep the law doesn’t need faith, what the law requires is just PERFECT OBEDIENCE IN REWARD FOR LIFE (Leviticus 18:5; Galatians 3:12). This was the ministry of the Old Covenant. And since no one can fulfil the spiritual demands of the law (love that seeks no self) through their obedience that was based on SELF-LOVE which is the SIN in us, the whole world become guilty before God and need Christ redemption and atonement for their sins. And thus, this ministry was called the ministry of death, because the wages of SIN is death.

But Christ needs His believers to have faith in Him, so that He might marked them with the seal of the Holy Spirit, to lead their life and released them from SIN and death. To release them from SIN means, to put dead to SIN by changing their selfish love to agape, to impart the love of God in their heart.

Now, if Christ believers take the law as a standard for living and have the desire to keep it as an obligation of worship to God, they have taken the ministry of death that was abolished by Christ in His flesh. They reject the ministry of the Spirit that gives life and changes it with the ministry of the letter that kills. This act was and acts of unbelief, an act that shows that they have no faith in Christ. They believe Him (just as the demons who believe and trembles) but deny His authority.

Everything that does not come from faith is sin! Keeping the law requires no faith but perfect obedience, and so, THAT IS SIN. It was based on human desire, based on self-love, based on SIN. And remember that the wages of SIN is death. Thus, keeping the law that requires no faith, in the real sense, is sin!

God never commanded us in His New covenant ministry, to keep the letter of the law, because the letter kills. What He asked from us, Christ believers, is to keep the spirit of the law; that was His command. And since we can not change our nature (self-love) from our selves, we could never keep the spirit of the law (agape love) unless His Spirit is with us. And when the Spirit is in us, He will eliminate SIN (self-love) and impart the love of God in our heart. The fruit of the Spirit will be then: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22). Against such thing there is no law and SIN (self-love) is no longer our master, this happened because we have taken the ministry of the Spirit and put aside the ministry of the letter that kills. We are not under the law (to keep and obey the law) but under the covenant of Grace.

In His love

James S.

Only a few that had shown faith by trusting God unquestionable, and for that, their faith is credited as righteousness. We have Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samson, David and so on. “All these people were still living by faith when they died” – Hebrew 11:13.

In the New Covenant, it will be the Spirit that serves men (Christ believers) through faith in return for “love.”

John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in My name, will TEACH you all things and will REMIND you of every thing I have said to you.”
John 16:7,8 “But I tell you the truth; It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. When He comes, He will CONVICT the world of guilt, in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.”

We knew the reason why the Old Covenant people failed to fulfil the demands of the law that was required from them, they obey it without faith, and without faith there is no Spirit of God in them to impart the love of God in their heart.

God would not that this failure might happen again after Christ had been offered for the atonement of sin. This failure happened because the Holy Spirit didn’t work in the law-keepers heart due to their unbelief. And so, He set up His New covenant, based on the ministry of the Holy Spirit that will live in those who belief and have faith in Christ. And in them, the Spirit will work “the willing and the doing of God” (Philippians 2:13), in them the Spirit “will write down the principle of the law of God (agape love) in their heart and in their mind” - (Hebrew 8:10). In them the Spirit will serve and work to recreate a whole new man after the likeness of God, love that seeks no self will rule their heart. This works include the eliminating of SIN (self-love).

If we understand this, why do we believe that God’s commandments that was given to the Old Covenant people still exist and valid in it authority for the New Covenant believers? Why do we think that obedience to the law is still needed? God revealed His gospel through Paul, so that Christ believers might know and believed that the service to the ministry of the law from the Old Covenant is over and ended in Christ. Not only the ceremonial law but also the moral law, because the ministry of the law include the whole law. It is no longer us that served the law, but it is now the Spirit that serve us.

What is not made perfect in the ministry of the law will be made perfect in the ministry of the Spirit. And when the ministry of the Spirit came in effect, the ministry of the law is over, nothing is left! (Hebrew 7:18,19).

The former ministry was based on human service (and of course it was based on SELF), but the new ministry was based on the service of the Spirit for those who have faith in Christ, and where the Spirit is, there is life. And where the Spirit ruled, there is love, because God is love.

Thus, it is a real sin, when we take the law again to observe and to obey, we offer again our service (that was based on SELF-love) rather then to receive the service of the Spirit that impart the love of God.

“The law is not of faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin.”

Now is the Covenant of grace, a ministry of the Spirit, what is required from us is “the just shall live by faith.”

Not by works was the remnant chosen, but by grace (Romans 11:5).

In His love

James S.

Daryl.

Brother Daryl, did I give any indication for that? Please check my post and you will find none of it.

In His love

James S.

If so, then are you not in effect saying that a born again Christian will not continue in sin?

And again this question: Are you not also aware that sin is the transgression of God's law?

Therefore, if so, then how can you say that the law has been abolished?

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

1. Obedience to the law is the ministry of the Old Covenant, ministry to the letter that kills, a ministry of death.
2. Christ has ended this ministry “in Him.”
3. Since the cross, a new ministry came in effect, it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
4. What is needed from them that believe Christ as their Redeemer and Savior is their faith in Him. Firstly, they will be justified freely by their faith in Him, and secondly Christ will live in them. The first is justification by faith, the second is sanctification through the Spirit.
5. Christ believers had been released from the Law (obligation to keep and obey) in Christ, and thus were not under the law.
6. But without Law shall they live the way they wants, shall they continue living in sin? If so is the case, they are not Christ believers and have no faith in Him.
7. Christ believers have an obligation but not to the flesh to live according to it, but to the Spirit.
8. Their freedom “in Christ” is not a license to live in sin.
9. When Christ is in your heart, do you need anything else? This is the ministry of the Spirit, this is the service of the Spirit, to eliminate sin in you and to impart God’s love in you. What is needed from you is just faith. The just shall live by faith!
10. Being under grace, if this believer commits sins, God will remember his sins and iniquities no more. But if he continues with his live for the flesh, he will die.
11. Led by the Spirit doesn’t mean that this believer will live a sinless perfect life. The Spirit is in him to lead his life, but the Spirit does not become him and he becomes not the Spirit. The Spirit greatest task is to eliminate sin (self-love) and so He will be in a constant war with sin in you. And so, some time you might do the things you do not want to do, or you hate to do. But this sin and iniquities God will remember no more. And since you are under grace and not under the law, there is no law that you break that could condemn you.
12. But law keepers, having taken the ministry of the law again, they put them self back under the law and it condemnation. When they break the law, the law will judge them and condemn them.
13. Taking the ministry of the law is the same with rejecting the ministry of the Spirit. Ministry of the law is your service to God through obedience (and in the Old Covenant time it was a great failure), but ministry of the Spirit is God service to you, to make you righteous, to make you just, to make you have the “love of God” in your heart.
14. That’s why; the law is not of faith, and if you take it, you live in sin, because “whatever is not of faith is sin.” And also it is a sign of disbelieve, because you trust your self more rather then the Spirit. Unfortunately you forget that you are under dominion of sin, and so, your law obedience was based on sin as you live in sin. On the contrary if you give yourself to the Spirit, He will eliminate sin in you and impart the love of God that fulfils the righteous demands of the law.
15. Sin is transgression to the law, and the wages of sin is death. Those who are under the law (taking the ministry of the law) were under condemnation of the law “the wages of sin is death”, because their obedience was based on sin (self-love). Sin is self-love, it transgress the holy principle of God’s Kingdom “love that seeks no self.” Thus, sin is not only a transgression to the letter of the law but in the real sense it is a transgression to the nature of God as this act was performed by you that were under dominion of sin that is self-love.

In His love

James S.

What will our rewards or otherwise be based on?

The first is our salvation and the second is our sanctification.

To have both, all what is required from us is FAITH. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrew 11:6).

Why is SIN such an important matter that Christ Himself must take care of it? Because SIN is our nature, it is our character, it is self-love. We can do nothing to change it, we must live with it, it is a part of us, it is us.

And since Sin or “self-love” is against God’s nature that is “love that seeks no self,” all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

The Old Covenant people (Israel) were all under the law because the Covenant was based on the ministry of the law that requires perfect obedience for return of life. But their service to the law were a great failure, because Israel didn’t base their service on faith but on works (Romans 9:32).

To avoid a repetition of this failure, God set up a New Covenant with His people, the Covenant of grace that was based on the ministry of the Spirit. It is no longer man that serve God with keeping the law (that will only breaks the law), but it is the Spirit that keep the (intent of the) law for men.

As the intent of the law was based on the principle of God’s nature “love that seeks no self”, then only the Holy Spirit that can carry it out for men in their heart, because the heart of men is selfish and stand opposite with God’s nature. As long obedience is based on the service of men, what is gained only legalistic righteousness, righteousness to the letter of the law.

Based on this concept, the New Covenant of God requires ONLY faith from Christ believers. By faith we are in Him, and in Him we have our life (1 John 5:11) because in Him we were redeemed from the wages of SIN (2nd death). And if we are in Him, He will be in us. And if Christ is in us, He will release us from the power of SIN. This He did by eliminating SIN through the imparted love of God that was shed abroad in our heart by the Spirit. What else is needed? The moral law? Nothing!

“Remain in Me and I will remain in you” – John 15:4.

“He that believeth the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” – John 3:36.

“Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him” – Hebrew 10:38

“For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith” – Romans 1:17.

Keeping the law is taking the ministry of the law that was abolished by Christ in His flesh and was ended in Him. It is no longer our service to God by keeping the law, but it is the service of the Spirit for us. The first one was a ministry of death and made nothing perfect, the second is a ministry that gives life.

There is no combine works, works of man and works of the Spirit. Either you take the ministry of death or take the ministry of the Spirit. Taking both means you don’t understand the gospel of Christ and that is a proof that you have no faith in Christ, because you don’t believe that the Spirit in you will make you righteous and so you need the law as a mirror.

The law is not of faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin!

In His love

James S

We are saved or lost depending whether or not we abide or do not abide in Christ.

Daryl.

That is what the gospel of Christ told us.

We accept salvation by faith if we abide in Him and we lost our salvation by unbelief if we do not abide in Christ. WHY? Because “in Him” we have our redemption (from wages of SIN) and forgiveness of sins (by grace) – Colossianns 1:13. In im we have our eternal life (1 John 5:11; Colosians 3:3), in Him we seat with God in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6).

What else is needed except faith to abide in Him. Where does the moral laws fits in, where does obedience fits in? Fruit of the Spirit fulfils all the demands of the law, and we have this fruit if we abide in Christ by faith. It is all God who did it for us, it is the ministry of the Spirit anyway.

In His love

James S.

Who were under the law? Those that were under the ministry of the law, those that lived in the Old Covenant time.

Since the cross of Christ, no new born were under the law. Why? Because Christ has abolished the law in Him and nailed it to His cross (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2; 14), the functions of the law ended in Christ (Romans 10:4) and a new ministry was established, the ministry of the Spirit that gives life.

The ministry of the law is until John (cross of Christ) – Luke 16:16, this ministry could only condemn men with death and made nothing perfect, it was set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrew 7:18). Since the cross a new Covenant came in effect, and the Old Covenant was made obsolete and disappear (Hebrew 8:13).

With Christ death and resurrection all men has been redeemed from the wages of SIN (2nd death) and justified freely by the grace of God. Salvation had appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) because of “one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men” – Romans 5:18, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” – 2 Corinthians 15:22.

And when all men have been justified and made alive in Christ, there was no more need for the ministry of the law, it is finished and taken away. No men need to be justified by the law (because all has been made righteous and justified by Christ work of redemption), thus, no one will be condemn by the law (for breaking the law). Because Christ died only ONCE, thus, there must be no more law that could condemn men with death as there will be no more sacrifice for sins (if the law still exist, many will be condemned by the law and Christ could not come again to die for them).

What is left for men now is to believe and to have faith in Christ, the Redeemer and Savior of men. Those that believe and have faith in Him will live, but those who believe not will not see life (John 3:36).

Those that believe and have faith in Christ will be led by His Spirit to all righteousness and holy life that fulfils the spiritual demands of the law, which is “love that seeks no self.” Something that could not be attained through the ministry of the law in the Old Covenant time. That’s why this ministry was called the ministry of the Spirit, because it was the Spirit that work in Christ believers heart to change their sinful nature by condemning SIN and to impart the love of God.

And in Christ there is no condemnation, either from the law because there is no law, or from SIN and our sins. Because Christ has redeemed us from the wages of SIN and in Christ God remember our sins and iniquities no more.

There is no room for the law, it is over and finished. All has been done for men’s salvation, what is required from them now is just FAITH in Christ and to live by faith.

The just shall live by faith! If some one take the law (moral law) again to keep and obey it, he has shown his unbelief, he didn’t belief the gospel of Christ or he didn’t know what is the gospel of Christ. And since Christ die no more, there is no more sacrifice of sins for him, he remained under the wrath of God. But those who live by the ministry of the Spirit are all under the grace of God, for that His New Covenant was called the covenant of grace.

Note: I have a bit difficulty in expressing my thoughts in proper English but I hope that you might understand the point, which is: Christ has redeemed those who WERE (past tense) under the law, those who lived in the era of the Old Covenant, those who were under the ministry of the law, in order WE (those after the cross) might receive the adoption of sons through a free justification and righteousness that comes from God. All have been saved (through Christ redemption from the wages of SIN) and were or are under the grace of God that remember our sins and iniquities no more. What is left is our faith to believe the gospel and to live by faith, with this we accept all what God has done for us. The rest is the work of God to maintain our salvation for us through His Spirit or through the ministry of the Spirit. The ministry of the law (including the moral law) was over, because there will be no more those who were or is under the law that need redemption.

In His love

James S.

What was it that Jesus told the rich young ruler when he asked what he needed to do to inherit eternal life?

The law points to Christ. If I throw out the law, I throw out the map. I am saved by faith, but that faith MUST change my life, the way I live, in order to be real. I cannot and will not be saved by keeping the law, but I keep the law because I love my Lord and want to do as He asks.

Sometimes we must look not at the result, but at the motivation to discover whether it is legalism or not.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. He never changes, why would He change the rules on us? I'm not sure about this old covenant/new covenant thing, but I know that my God is always the same. There is nothing confusing about following Jesus, there is nothing confusing about His law or His covenant. He has asked that I keep His commandments and I will.

quote:

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Originally posted by James Saptenno:
DenBorg.

Nice to hear you again and continue with this thread. I think since no one continue with this topic then they may all agree with my view.

James S.

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Genesis 26
5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

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Psalm 119
90 Your faithfulness continues through all generations; you established the earth, and it endures.
91 Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.
92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction.

Psalm 119
159 See how I love your precepts; preserve my life, O LORD , according to your love.
160 All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

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