Posted By: Mountain Man
What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/24/06 07:23 PM
What is the truth about faith and works?
What is the truth about faith and works?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/24/06 07:24 PM
1 SM 379-382
No Compromise With Sin
Let my brethren be very careful how they present the subject of faith and works before the people, lest minds become confused. The people need to be urged to diligence in good works. They should be shown how to be successful, how to be purified, and their offerings may be fragrant before God. It is by virtue of the blood of Christ. Messages of a decided character must be borne to the people. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. {1SM 379.4}
If there is given to the angel of any church a commission like unto that given to the angel of the church of Ephesus, let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul. {1SM 380.1}
His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome. The reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.--Manuscript 26a, 1892. {1SM 380.2}
Cooperation With God
Man is to cooperate with God, employing every power according to his God-given ability. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect. . . . {1SM 380.3}
We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin. The human agent is to cooperate with God, and keep under those passions which should be in subjection. To do this he must be unwearied in his prayers to God, ever obtaining grace to control his spirit, temper, and actions. Through the imparted grace of Christ, he may be enabled to overcome. To be an overcomer means more than many suppose it means. {1SM 380.4}
The Spirit of God will answer the cry of every penitent heart; for repentance is the gift of God, and an evidence that Christ is drawing the soul to Himself. We can no more repent of sin without Christ, than we can be pardoned without Christ, and yet it is a humiliation to man with his human passion and pride to go to Jesus straightway, believing and trusting Him for everything which he needs. . . . {1SM 381.1}
Let no man present the idea that man has little or nothing to do in the great work of overcoming; for God does nothing for man without his cooperation. Neither say that after you have done all you can on your part, Jesus will help you. Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). From first to last man is to be a laborer together with God. Unless the Holy Spirit works upon the human heart, at every step we shall stumble and fall. Man's efforts alone are nothing but worthlessness; but cooperation with Christ means a victory. Of ourselves we have no power to repent of sin. Unless we accept divine aid we cannot take the first step toward the Saviour. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6) in the salvation of every soul. {1SM 381.2}
But though Christ is everything, we are to inspire every man to unwearied diligence. We are to strive, wrestle, agonize, watch, pray, lest we shall be overcome by the wily foe. For the power and grace with which we can do this comes from God, and all the while we are to trust in Him, who is able to save to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him. Never leave the impression on the mind that there is little or nothing to do on the part of man; but rather teach man to cooperate with God, that he may be successful in overcoming. {1SM 381.3}
Let no one say that your works have nothing to do with your rank and position before God. In the judgment the sentence pronounced is according to what has been done or to what has been left undone (Matt. 25:34-40). {1SM 381.4}
Effort and labor are required on the part of the receiver of God's grace; for it is the fruit that makes manifest what is the character of the tree. Although the good works of man are of no more value without faith in Jesus than was the offering of Cain, yet covered with the merit of Christ, they testify {to} the worthiness of the doer to inherit eternal life. That which is considered morality in the world does not reach the divine standard and has no more merit before Heaven than had the offering of Cain.--Manuscript 26a, 1892. {1SM 381.5}
No Compromise With Sin
Let my brethren be very careful how they present the subject of faith and works before the people, lest minds become confused. The people need to be urged to diligence in good works. They should be shown how to be successful, how to be purified, and their offerings may be fragrant before God. It is by virtue of the blood of Christ. Messages of a decided character must be borne to the people. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. {1SM 379.4}
If there is given to the angel of any church a commission like unto that given to the angel of the church of Ephesus, let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul. {1SM 380.1}
His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome. The reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.--Manuscript 26a, 1892. {1SM 380.2}
Cooperation With God
Man is to cooperate with God, employing every power according to his God-given ability. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect. . . . {1SM 380.3}
We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin. The human agent is to cooperate with God, and keep under those passions which should be in subjection. To do this he must be unwearied in his prayers to God, ever obtaining grace to control his spirit, temper, and actions. Through the imparted grace of Christ, he may be enabled to overcome. To be an overcomer means more than many suppose it means. {1SM 380.4}
The Spirit of God will answer the cry of every penitent heart; for repentance is the gift of God, and an evidence that Christ is drawing the soul to Himself. We can no more repent of sin without Christ, than we can be pardoned without Christ, and yet it is a humiliation to man with his human passion and pride to go to Jesus straightway, believing and trusting Him for everything which he needs. . . . {1SM 381.1}
Let no man present the idea that man has little or nothing to do in the great work of overcoming; for God does nothing for man without his cooperation. Neither say that after you have done all you can on your part, Jesus will help you. Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). From first to last man is to be a laborer together with God. Unless the Holy Spirit works upon the human heart, at every step we shall stumble and fall. Man's efforts alone are nothing but worthlessness; but cooperation with Christ means a victory. Of ourselves we have no power to repent of sin. Unless we accept divine aid we cannot take the first step toward the Saviour. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6) in the salvation of every soul. {1SM 381.2}
But though Christ is everything, we are to inspire every man to unwearied diligence. We are to strive, wrestle, agonize, watch, pray, lest we shall be overcome by the wily foe. For the power and grace with which we can do this comes from God, and all the while we are to trust in Him, who is able to save to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him. Never leave the impression on the mind that there is little or nothing to do on the part of man; but rather teach man to cooperate with God, that he may be successful in overcoming. {1SM 381.3}
Let no one say that your works have nothing to do with your rank and position before God. In the judgment the sentence pronounced is according to what has been done or to what has been left undone (Matt. 25:34-40). {1SM 381.4}
Effort and labor are required on the part of the receiver of God's grace; for it is the fruit that makes manifest what is the character of the tree. Although the good works of man are of no more value without faith in Jesus than was the offering of Cain, yet covered with the merit of Christ, they testify {to} the worthiness of the doer to inherit eternal life. That which is considered morality in the world does not reach the divine standard and has no more merit before Heaven than had the offering of Cain.--Manuscript 26a, 1892. {1SM 381.5}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/24/06 07:36 PM
Several things are clear:
1. Let my brethren be very careful how they present the subject of faith and works before the people, lest minds become confused. The people need to be urged to diligence in good works. They should be shown how to be successful, how to be purified, and their offerings may be fragrant before God. It is by virtue of the blood of Christ. Messages of a decided character must be borne to the people.
2. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. . . let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin.
3. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul.
4. His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome.
5. The [human] reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery.
6. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body.
7. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.
8. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect.
9. We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given.
10. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin.
11. The human agent is to cooperate with God, and keep under those passions which should be in subjection. To do this he must be unwearied in his prayers to God, ever obtaining grace to control his spirit, temper, and actions. Through the imparted grace of Christ, he may be enabled to overcome.
12. To be an overcomer means more than many suppose it means.
13. The Spirit of God will answer the cry of every penitent heart; for repentance is the gift of God, and an evidence that Christ is drawing the soul to Himself. We can no more repent of sin without Christ, than we can be pardoned without Christ, and yet it is a humiliation to man with his human passion and pride to go to Jesus straightway, believing and trusting Him for everything which he needs.
14. Let no man present the idea that man has little or nothing to do in the great work of overcoming; for God does nothing for man without his cooperation. Neither say that after you have done all you can on your part, Jesus will help you. Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).
15. From first to last man is to be a laborer together with God. Unless the Holy Spirit works upon the human heart, at every step we shall stumble and fall.
16. Man's efforts alone are nothing but worthlessness; but cooperation with Christ means a victory. Of ourselves we have no power to repent of sin.
17. Unless we accept divine aid we cannot take the first step toward the Saviour. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6) in the salvation of every soul.
18. But though Christ is everything, we are to inspire every man to unwearied diligence. We are to strive, wrestle, agonize, watch, pray, lest we shall be overcome by the wily foe. For the power and grace with which we can do this comes from God, and all the while we are to trust in Him, who is able to save to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him.
19. Never leave the impression on the mind that there is little or nothing to do on the part of man; but rather teach man to cooperate with God, that he may be successful in overcoming.
20. Let no one say that your works have nothing to do with your rank and position before God. In the judgment the sentence pronounced is according to what has been done or to what has been left undone (Matt. 25:34-40).
21. Effort and labor are required on the part of the receiver of God's grace; for it is the fruit that makes manifest what is the character of the tree.
22. Although the good works of man are of no more value without faith in Jesus than was the offering of Cain, yet covered with the merit of Christ, they testify {to} the worthiness of the doer to inherit eternal life.
23. That which is considered morality in the world does not reach the divine standard and has no more merit before Heaven than had the offering of Cain.
1. Let my brethren be very careful how they present the subject of faith and works before the people, lest minds become confused. The people need to be urged to diligence in good works. They should be shown how to be successful, how to be purified, and their offerings may be fragrant before God. It is by virtue of the blood of Christ. Messages of a decided character must be borne to the people.
2. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. . . let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin.
3. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul.
4. His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome.
5. The [human] reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery.
6. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body.
7. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.
8. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect.
9. We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given.
10. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin.
11. The human agent is to cooperate with God, and keep under those passions which should be in subjection. To do this he must be unwearied in his prayers to God, ever obtaining grace to control his spirit, temper, and actions. Through the imparted grace of Christ, he may be enabled to overcome.
12. To be an overcomer means more than many suppose it means.
13. The Spirit of God will answer the cry of every penitent heart; for repentance is the gift of God, and an evidence that Christ is drawing the soul to Himself. We can no more repent of sin without Christ, than we can be pardoned without Christ, and yet it is a humiliation to man with his human passion and pride to go to Jesus straightway, believing and trusting Him for everything which he needs.
14. Let no man present the idea that man has little or nothing to do in the great work of overcoming; for God does nothing for man without his cooperation. Neither say that after you have done all you can on your part, Jesus will help you. Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).
15. From first to last man is to be a laborer together with God. Unless the Holy Spirit works upon the human heart, at every step we shall stumble and fall.
16. Man's efforts alone are nothing but worthlessness; but cooperation with Christ means a victory. Of ourselves we have no power to repent of sin.
17. Unless we accept divine aid we cannot take the first step toward the Saviour. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6) in the salvation of every soul.
18. But though Christ is everything, we are to inspire every man to unwearied diligence. We are to strive, wrestle, agonize, watch, pray, lest we shall be overcome by the wily foe. For the power and grace with which we can do this comes from God, and all the while we are to trust in Him, who is able to save to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him.
19. Never leave the impression on the mind that there is little or nothing to do on the part of man; but rather teach man to cooperate with God, that he may be successful in overcoming.
20. Let no one say that your works have nothing to do with your rank and position before God. In the judgment the sentence pronounced is according to what has been done or to what has been left undone (Matt. 25:34-40).
21. Effort and labor are required on the part of the receiver of God's grace; for it is the fruit that makes manifest what is the character of the tree.
22. Although the good works of man are of no more value without faith in Jesus than was the offering of Cain, yet covered with the merit of Christ, they testify {to} the worthiness of the doer to inherit eternal life.
23. That which is considered morality in the world does not reach the divine standard and has no more merit before Heaven than had the offering of Cain.
Posted By: Johann
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/28/06 11:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1 SM 379-382
No Compromise With Sin
No Compromise With Sin
Agreed MM, and yet I am not fully satisfied. You make a selected list compiled from the compilation of someone else of the writings of Ellen White. I agree with you that she was selected by God to reveal specific messages to God's people in the final events of this world's history.
You see, when you start making such a list, I immediately think of a number of other statements EGW has made. She has made it clear that wasting your time is a horrible thing, and this we must not do if we want to honor our Creator. I'm sure you can find the quotations for this.
She makes another statement that says some of us must not take so much time writing when in reality God is calling us to do some other work for Him.
Many people through the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church have divulged great amounts of time on this very subject. Have they all ignited more light than heat?
How can we be sure that we should spend so much time on this very subject too? Is there a possbility that we should be out there reaching out a hand to some soul in dire need, spiritually, mentally, or physically? Do we first have to tell a dying soul the minute details in relation to faith and works before we reach that person a cup of cold water that will keep him from dying?
Could this lead to a sin that might keep us out of heaven?
Just wondering - yet I do not want to quench your desire to dig deep in these details.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/29/06 04:25 AM
What are we doing with our time? Good question! It is amazing and awesome just how little time it takes to post a new thread on MSDAOL. Thank God for modern technology.
For example, it took me 13 minutes to create this thread and to post the first three posts. That includes cutting and pasting 1SM 379-382 twice, once without numbering the various points and once with numbering the points. Was it a waste of time? I hope not!
For example, it took me 13 minutes to create this thread and to post the first three posts. That includes cutting and pasting 1SM 379-382 twice, once without numbering the various points and once with numbering the points. Was it a waste of time? I hope not!
Posted By: Johann
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/29/06 02:10 PM
23 important points in 13 minutes - after a thorough study, prayer and meditation?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/29/06 06:06 PM
What's the relationship between faith and works? Before exploring the answer to this question, let's consider the words we will be looking at. First of all, notice the Bible uses "works" in both a positive and negative sense. In a positive sense, it is equivalent to obedience to the law. In a negative sense, it means things one does to try to earn favor with God. We will be using it in the positive sense.
The Bible also uses "faith" in a negative sense. In a negative sense, it is used as a counterfeit for true faith, a "faith" devoid of works. Similarly "believe" can be used in a negative sense. For example, "The devils believe and tremble." "Believe" here is not used in the same sense that Jesus used it when He said, "Whosoever believes in Me shall not perish." We will be using it in the positive sense. We also note that as "works" and "obey" express the same idea in two ways (one as a noun, the other as a verb), so too "faith" and "believe" express the same idea in two ways (one as a noun, the other as a verb).
When Nicodemus went to see Jesus, Jesus explained to him the way of salvation. To be saved, Nicodemus must believe in Him. The distinction between the sheep and the goats was made clear. The sheep are those who believe in Him. They shall never perish. The goats are those who "believe not." They are already condemned.
In another occasion, when Jesus was asked how to obtain eternal life, He responded, "Obey the commandments." Was Jesus mistaken? Did He not know that the way to eternal life is by believing in Him? Why did He say one thing in one place and something else in another?
Jesus is not the only one who does this! The great apostle Paul, who so strongly and clearly teaches that justification is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, tells us "not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law will be justified." John also, whose pen brought us the truth that those who believe in Christ "shall not perish" tells us, "Blessed are they that keep His commandments, for they shall have a right to the tree of life and enter into the gates of the city." (Rev. 22:14) The distinction between the sheep and the goats is made clear. The sheep are those who obey. The goats are those who don't.
Is it a coincidence that these groups are the same? That is, that those who believe are the same as those who obey, and those who "believe not" are those who do not obey? Not at all!
It is often said that faith leads to obedience, but the relationship between faith and obedience is much closer than that. Those who believe, obey. And those who obey, believe. You can not have one without the other. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Sin is transgression of the law, or disobedience. So whatever is not of faith is disobedience. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The law of God comprises those things which please God. It is "the whole duty of man." Without faith, it is impossible to obey the law of God. With faith, it is impossible not to.
When one believes in Christ, the law is written in the heart and in the mind. This is where obedience begins. As long as the law is something outside of man, something external he tries to do, his failure is inevitable. But when Christ, of whom it is written, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." dwells within, then the law is no longer something external. It is written in our hearts by the living Christ, who dwells in the heart by faith.
The law has an internal element to it. Jesus taught this in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5, 6, 7). The law can be disobeyed by a glance, by a thought. In fact, one commandment, "Thou shall not covet" is only internal. One must be born again to keep it. One needs the mind of Christ.
Just as the law has an internal element to it, faith has an external element. Faith works by love (Galatians 5:6).
So what is the relationship of faith and works? They are two expressions of the same process, like sin and death. As the sting of death is sin, the sting of works is faith. As sin has death wrapped within, faith has works wrapped within. Faith works.
So when Jesus told the man who inquired of Him to obey the law if He wanted to obtain eternal life, He was right! (How could He not be?) Implicit within this obedience is faith. James expresses the same idea when he writes that Abraham was justified by works.
Faith looks at the process starting from within, and proceeds without. A heart appreciation of the love of God; a grateful, appreciating heart expresses itself in works of obedience. (e.g. Mary Magdalene's expression of faith at the feast at Simon's house). Obedience to the law looks at the process from another perspective. It presupposes the existence of faith, which purifies the motives and cleanses the inner being by bringing Christ to dwell within.
Why is it important to understand how closely faith and works are interwoven? We may come to incorrect conclusions when we consider our own lives and see a lack of works (or no lack of sin). We may be tempted to believe the solution is more works, to try harder. However, if we understand that faith and works cannot be separated, we will be led to understand the true problem — unbelief. If we further understand faith as a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross, a lack of works in our lives will drive us to where we need to go: the cross.
The Bible also uses "faith" in a negative sense. In a negative sense, it is used as a counterfeit for true faith, a "faith" devoid of works. Similarly "believe" can be used in a negative sense. For example, "The devils believe and tremble." "Believe" here is not used in the same sense that Jesus used it when He said, "Whosoever believes in Me shall not perish." We will be using it in the positive sense. We also note that as "works" and "obey" express the same idea in two ways (one as a noun, the other as a verb), so too "faith" and "believe" express the same idea in two ways (one as a noun, the other as a verb).
When Nicodemus went to see Jesus, Jesus explained to him the way of salvation. To be saved, Nicodemus must believe in Him. The distinction between the sheep and the goats was made clear. The sheep are those who believe in Him. They shall never perish. The goats are those who "believe not." They are already condemned.
In another occasion, when Jesus was asked how to obtain eternal life, He responded, "Obey the commandments." Was Jesus mistaken? Did He not know that the way to eternal life is by believing in Him? Why did He say one thing in one place and something else in another?
Jesus is not the only one who does this! The great apostle Paul, who so strongly and clearly teaches that justification is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, tells us "not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law will be justified." John also, whose pen brought us the truth that those who believe in Christ "shall not perish" tells us, "Blessed are they that keep His commandments, for they shall have a right to the tree of life and enter into the gates of the city." (Rev. 22:14) The distinction between the sheep and the goats is made clear. The sheep are those who obey. The goats are those who don't.
Is it a coincidence that these groups are the same? That is, that those who believe are the same as those who obey, and those who "believe not" are those who do not obey? Not at all!
It is often said that faith leads to obedience, but the relationship between faith and obedience is much closer than that. Those who believe, obey. And those who obey, believe. You can not have one without the other. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Sin is transgression of the law, or disobedience. So whatever is not of faith is disobedience. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The law of God comprises those things which please God. It is "the whole duty of man." Without faith, it is impossible to obey the law of God. With faith, it is impossible not to.
When one believes in Christ, the law is written in the heart and in the mind. This is where obedience begins. As long as the law is something outside of man, something external he tries to do, his failure is inevitable. But when Christ, of whom it is written, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." dwells within, then the law is no longer something external. It is written in our hearts by the living Christ, who dwells in the heart by faith.
The law has an internal element to it. Jesus taught this in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5, 6, 7). The law can be disobeyed by a glance, by a thought. In fact, one commandment, "Thou shall not covet" is only internal. One must be born again to keep it. One needs the mind of Christ.
Just as the law has an internal element to it, faith has an external element. Faith works by love (Galatians 5:6).
So what is the relationship of faith and works? They are two expressions of the same process, like sin and death. As the sting of death is sin, the sting of works is faith. As sin has death wrapped within, faith has works wrapped within. Faith works.
So when Jesus told the man who inquired of Him to obey the law if He wanted to obtain eternal life, He was right! (How could He not be?) Implicit within this obedience is faith. James expresses the same idea when he writes that Abraham was justified by works.
Faith looks at the process starting from within, and proceeds without. A heart appreciation of the love of God; a grateful, appreciating heart expresses itself in works of obedience. (e.g. Mary Magdalene's expression of faith at the feast at Simon's house). Obedience to the law looks at the process from another perspective. It presupposes the existence of faith, which purifies the motives and cleanses the inner being by bringing Christ to dwell within.
Why is it important to understand how closely faith and works are interwoven? We may come to incorrect conclusions when we consider our own lives and see a lack of works (or no lack of sin). We may be tempted to believe the solution is more works, to try harder. However, if we understand that faith and works cannot be separated, we will be led to understand the true problem — unbelief. If we further understand faith as a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross, a lack of works in our lives will drive us to where we need to go: the cross.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/30/06 12:50 AM
Pastor Johann: 23 important points in 13 minutes - after a thorough study, prayer and meditation?
MM: Please take a another look at the 23 points I posted and you'll see that all I did was enumerate the points Sister White made in the previous post.
Again, is it a waste of time to spend 13 minutes posting such things on MSDAOL?
MM: Please take a another look at the 23 points I posted and you'll see that all I did was enumerate the points Sister White made in the previous post.
Again, is it a waste of time to spend 13 minutes posting such things on MSDAOL?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/30/06 12:55 AM
TE: However, if we understand that faith and works cannot be separated, we will be led to understand the true problem — unbelief. If we further understand faith as a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross, a lack of works in our lives will drive us to where we need to go: the cross.
MM: Amen!
MM: Amen!
Posted By: Johann
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/30/06 02:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
MM: Please take a another look at the 23 points I posted and you'll see that all I did was enumerate the points Sister White made in the previous post.
Again, is it a waste of time to spend 13 minutes posting such things on MSDAOL?
All of the points are excellent and of great value. My questioning is merely to stir up our pure (some may spell it "poor") minds to consider the options. Will such a list assure that we are on the right track?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/30/06 08:06 AM
Thank you MM.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 12/30/06 06:55 PM
Pastor Johann: All of the points are excellent and of great value. My questioning is merely to stir up our pure (some may spell it "poor") minds to consider the options.
Will such a list assure that we are on the right track?
MM: It is the truth that sets us free – not lists. If we read and heed the truth we are free to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, obedient, manifesting the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the glorious day of Jesus Christ our Lord, thereby vindicating the kingdom and character of God our Father.
2. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. . . let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin.
MM: How well does reproving and rebuking sinning go over in the church nowadays?
3. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul.
MM: Amen! Reprovers and rebukers should never divorce Jesus from their messages.
4. His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome.
MM: Amen! The power of God Almighty is at our disposal so that we can live in harmony with His will and way.
5. The [human] reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery.
MM: We must learn to master ourselves, to subdue and subject our unholy traits and tendencies to a sanctified will and mind, to recognize and resist the sinful thought and feelings that bombard us from within and from without ceaselessly.
6. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body.
MM: Reprovers and rebukers must not only help sinners understand their sinful practices and corrupt habits, but they must also encourage them to, by the grace of God, keep them under the subjection of a sanctified will and mind, to not allow them to resurface, to be manifested in their words or behaviour.
7. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.
MM: Amen!
8. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect.
MM: Ignorance is not bliss – the truth is, that is, living the truth in our daily life is bliss and peace.
9. We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given.
MM: Amen!
10. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin.
MM: God forbid, that is, God forbids us to commit sin. All the power in heaven and earth is ours for the asking, ours for the taking, ours for the making – the making of righteousness and true holiness. To God be the glory.
Will such a list assure that we are on the right track?
MM: It is the truth that sets us free – not lists. If we read and heed the truth we are free to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, obedient, manifesting the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the glorious day of Jesus Christ our Lord, thereby vindicating the kingdom and character of God our Father.
2. Men must go forth reproving, rebuking every manner of evil. . . let the message be heard through human agents rebuking carelessness, backsliding, and sin, that the people may be brought to repentance and confession of sin.
MM: How well does reproving and rebuking sinning go over in the church nowadays?
3. Never seek to cover sin; for in the message of rebuke, Christ is to be proclaimed as the first and the last, He who is all in all to the soul.
MM: Amen! Reprovers and rebukers should never divorce Jesus from their messages.
4. His power awaits the demand of those who would overcome.
MM: Amen! The power of God Almighty is at our disposal so that we can live in harmony with His will and way.
5. The [human] reprover is to animate his hearers so that they shall strive for the mastery.
MM: We must learn to master ourselves, to subdue and subject our unholy traits and tendencies to a sanctified will and mind, to recognize and resist the sinful thought and feelings that bombard us from within and from without ceaselessly.
6. He is to encourage them to struggle for deliverance from every sinful practice, to be free from every corrupt habit, even if his denial of self is like taking the right eye, or separating the right arm from the body.
MM: Reprovers and rebukers must not only help sinners understand their sinful practices and corrupt habits, but they must also encourage them to, by the grace of God, keep them under the subjection of a sanctified will and mind, to not allow them to resurface, to be manifested in their words or behaviour.
7. No concession or compromise is to be made to evil habits or sinful practices.
MM: Amen!
8. He is not to be ignorant as to what are right practices in eating and drinking, and in all the habits of life. The Lord designs that His human agents shall act as rational, accountable beings in every respect.
MM: Ignorance is not bliss – the truth is, that is, living the truth in our daily life is bliss and peace.
9. We cannot afford to neglect one ray of light God has given.
MM: Amen!
10. To be sluggish in our practice of those things which require diligence is to commit sin.
MM: God forbid, that is, God forbids us to commit sin. All the power in heaven and earth is ours for the asking, ours for the taking, ours for the making – the making of righteousness and true holiness. To God be the glory.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 01/08/09 09:06 AM
So, what would come first?
Faith that lead to works, or, works that lead to faith?
In His love.
Faith that lead to works, or, works that lead to faith?
In His love.
Posted By: teresaq
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 01/08/09 11:30 PM
that is an interesting question.
i remember when i first decided to keep the sabbath. i would say it was because i was supposed to-works. i would say that it led to faith. in that particular case "works that led to faith".
i will have to think if that has always been true, or if it has been a combination of the two.
i remember when i first decided to keep the sabbath. i would say it was because i was supposed to-works. i would say that it led to faith. in that particular case "works that led to faith".
i will have to think if that has always been true, or if it has been a combination of the two.
Posted By: teresaq
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 01/08/09 11:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
MM: Please take a another look at the 23 points I posted and you'll see that all I did was enumerate the points Sister White made in the previous post.
Again, is it a waste of time to spend 13 minutes posting such things on MSDAOL?
All of the points are excellent and of great value. My questioning is merely to stir up our pure (some may spell it "poor") minds to consider the options. Will such a list assure that we are on the right track?
your posts have given me some great thoughts to stop and consider and search my heart.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 01/10/09 10:38 PM
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
So, what would come first? Faith that lead to works, or, works that lead to faith?
They happen simultaneously. They are inseparable. Apart from one another they cease to be what they are when united. Faith without works ceases to be faith. And, works without faith ceases to be works. This is, of course, looking at it from God's perspective. Which is how we need to view it.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 03/04/18 06:55 PM
Rather than create a new topic, I am resurrecting this one.
I came across this while reading through the book, Patriarchs & Prophets:
True faith, which relies wholly upon Christ, will be manifested by obedience to all the requirements of God. From Adam's day to the present time the great controversy has been concerning obedience to God's law. In all ages there have been those who claimed a right to the favor of God even while they were disregarding some of His commands. But the Scriptures declare that by works is "faith made perfect;" and that, without the works of obedience, faith "is dead." James 2:22, 17. He that professes to know God, "and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4. {PP 73.2}
I came across this while reading through the book, Patriarchs & Prophets:
True faith, which relies wholly upon Christ, will be manifested by obedience to all the requirements of God. From Adam's day to the present time the great controversy has been concerning obedience to God's law. In all ages there have been those who claimed a right to the favor of God even while they were disregarding some of His commands. But the Scriptures declare that by works is "faith made perfect;" and that, without the works of obedience, faith "is dead." James 2:22, 17. He that professes to know God, "and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4. {PP 73.2}
Posted By: Josh M
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 03/05/18 09:37 AM
Let's consider what it means for works to make faith perfect and a lack of works to cause the death of faith. In Luke 17:5 there's an interesting request made to Jesus- "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith."
The answer was-
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
The lesson presented is that we have a Master and have been given both a commission an a law. Obeying these, not as a gift of works to God for which we would deserve a payment (see Romans 4:4), but out of a sense of duty to the God whom we love and choose to serve will increase our faith.
It's designed to be a cycle that eternally benefits us. Faith produces works which increases faith which produces more works. Without the works the cycle breaks and, rather than increasing, like any muscle that goes unused, faith withers and dies. Without the faith, works are only an imitating drudgery because works born of faith are faith put into action.
The answer was-
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
The lesson presented is that we have a Master and have been given both a commission an a law. Obeying these, not as a gift of works to God for which we would deserve a payment (see Romans 4:4), but out of a sense of duty to the God whom we love and choose to serve will increase our faith.
It's designed to be a cycle that eternally benefits us. Faith produces works which increases faith which produces more works. Without the works the cycle breaks and, rather than increasing, like any muscle that goes unused, faith withers and dies. Without the faith, works are only an imitating drudgery because works born of faith are faith put into action.
Posted By: dedication
Re: What is the truth about faith and works? - 03/10/18 12:20 AM
"He that professes to know God, "and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4.
Too often we focus on the last part of that verse and fall into a "works" program trying to keep God's commandments by works.
But notice the first part --
He that professes to know God...
That is the point we really need to concentrate on. Are we seeking to know God; not just have knowledge about Him, but to know Him on a personal, relationship basis?
Or is our knowledge of God just a profession, an intellectual acquiesce but not an actual "knowing" Him?
And yes --
"True faith, which relies wholly upon Christ, will be manifested by obedience to all the requirements of God."
It's also true that God invites us to "taste and see".
Ps. 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
A new believer may wonder "how can I give up my worldly way of life?" Instead of telling them "you better or you will be lost" -- invite them "taste and see that the LORD is good"
Try it and see -- not to earn anything, but to experience the blessings that come from trusting in Him.
God invites us to prove for ourselves the reality of His Word, the truth of His promises.
Trust and follow --- He will never leave you.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with Him, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Faith claims God's promises, and brings forth fruit in obedience.
To abide in faith is to walk humbly with the Lord, to appropriate His promises, and apply them to all occasions, believing that God will work out His own plans and purposes in your heart and life.
What could be more reliable than pure faith in God's promises? Take the blessed promises of God and apply them to yourself, bearing your whole weight upon them? This is faith.
Too often we focus on the last part of that verse and fall into a "works" program trying to keep God's commandments by works.
But notice the first part --
He that professes to know God...
That is the point we really need to concentrate on. Are we seeking to know God; not just have knowledge about Him, but to know Him on a personal, relationship basis?
Or is our knowledge of God just a profession, an intellectual acquiesce but not an actual "knowing" Him?
And yes --
"True faith, which relies wholly upon Christ, will be manifested by obedience to all the requirements of God."
It's also true that God invites us to "taste and see".
Ps. 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
A new believer may wonder "how can I give up my worldly way of life?" Instead of telling them "you better or you will be lost" -- invite them "taste and see that the LORD is good"
Try it and see -- not to earn anything, but to experience the blessings that come from trusting in Him.
God invites us to prove for ourselves the reality of His Word, the truth of His promises.
Trust and follow --- He will never leave you.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with Him, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Quote:
"He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy....
notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth.
If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new covenant promise is fulfilled. . . . Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship (Steps to Christ, pp. 59, 60).
The Christian's life should be one of faith, of victory, and joy in God. "Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." Truly spake God's servant Nehemiah, "The joy of the Lord is your strength." Nehemiah 8:10. {FLB 126.2}
notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth.
If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new covenant promise is fulfilled. . . . Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship (Steps to Christ, pp. 59, 60).
The Christian's life should be one of faith, of victory, and joy in God. "Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." Truly spake God's servant Nehemiah, "The joy of the Lord is your strength." Nehemiah 8:10. {FLB 126.2}
Faith claims God's promises, and brings forth fruit in obedience.
To abide in faith is to walk humbly with the Lord, to appropriate His promises, and apply them to all occasions, believing that God will work out His own plans and purposes in your heart and life.
What could be more reliable than pure faith in God's promises? Take the blessed promises of God and apply them to yourself, bearing your whole weight upon them? This is faith.