Your sin is forgiven

Just want to make sure that I understand the word of God.
Could you please help me to answer this question:

When we now ask God to forgive our sins, are we immediately forgiven? How about those before the cross, were their sins forgiven too the time they asked God forgiveness?

In His love

James S.

Yes, sins are forgiven the moment we experience the gift of repentance. However, they are not "blotted out" of our record and memory until Jesus determines our eternal destiny during the investigative judgment.

1 John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts
3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Before the cross there was the sacrificial system, where the sinner could seek forgiveness.

Enoch and Elijah were translated and Moses was raised from the grave.

Based on these examples, I would think there was forgiveness before the cross.

How could sin's forgiveness happen before redemption take place? If God could forgive sins before redemption take place, the Moslem are right, we didn't need Christ!

In is love

James S

Do you believe that "redemption took place" at the cross, and not before? Trying to grasp your terminology here.

By what is our sins forgiven? By the blood of Christ or by the love of God?

In His love

James S

God's forgiveness is based on what Christ did on the cross. Before the cross it was prospective, after the cross it is retrospective.
Forgiveness is a Person and what He did. "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2, NKJV). Forgiveness is provisional until the final judgment. If you cease to have a living connection with Christ, your sins are credited back to you (see Matt. 18:23-35).

Perhaps debited back would be a better wording.

But shed blood is not all that is needed. In order for the blood to be available at all, and for it to be ministered to those who need it, the love of God plays a critical role.

1 Corinthian 15:17 – And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

Until then, Christ resurrection, all before the cross are not forgiven yet, they are still in their sins, must wait till the blood is shed, before the shedding of the blood there is no remission of sins.

A different case for those after the cross, the blood has been shed for remission of sins, their sins are forgiven the time they repent and ask God forgiveness.

In His love

James S

Quote:
But shed blood is not all that is needed. In order for the blood to be available at all, and for it to be ministered to those who need it, the love of God plays a critical role.
Unquote.

There were billions of people died before the cross in the 4,000 years after Adam, if all their sins were forgiven before the shedding of the blood; it means God can forgive without presentation of the holy blood, just based on his infinite love, then why it is needed to sacrifice His Son?

In His love

James S

The following text in the Old Testament shows that the Lord forgave sins prior to the shedding of blood by Jesus Christ:

Also, in response to James' post, if that were true, then how is it that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were all in heaven prior to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross?

In response to James' second post, the Bible clearly says:

In other words, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

This is why the sacrificial system was necessary prior to the death of Christ, as all these animal sacrifices pointed to the sacrifice by the Lamb of God on the cross.

Don't forget that He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8) In the sense that Jesus was sacrificed from the foundation of the world, so also the blood has been available from the foundation of the world.

How about Hebrew 9:26,28.

So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people……

Hebrew 7:27 – He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Read also Hebrew 10:1-4.

It is quite clear that without the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ at the end of time at Calvary, there is no remission of sins, there is no forgiveness, there is none who was taken away their sins.

For Darryl:
In other words, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

This is why the sacrificial system was necessary prior to the death of Christ, as all these animal sacrifices pointed to the sacrifice by the Lamb of God on the cross.
Unquote.

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Hebrew 10:4).

For Asygo
Don't forget that He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8) In the sense that Jesus was sacrificed from the foundation of the world, so also the blood has been available from the foundation of the world.
Uquote

But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sins by the sacrifice if himself.
He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

He was not sacrificed yet at the foundation of the world, his blood has not been shed yet, only at Calvary. Till then sins must wait to be forgiven.

Hebrew 10:1 – The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves.

It is only a shadow of things to come, not the realities themselves, sins forgiveness must wait till the real blood of the Savior has been shed.

If it is real, we do not need Christ, God forgives based on his infinite love, and the Moslem’s are right.

In His love

James S.

The shedding of the blood of animals alone wasn't in itself sufficient for the forgiveness of sin without also the shedding of the blood of Christ for us.

The fact that God took Enoch and Elijah to heaven without seeing death, and also resurrecting Moses from the dead and taking him to heaven tells me that there was forgiveness for sin even before the then future event of Christ shedding His blood for them and for us.

But the Bible is clear that there is a sense in which Christ was sacrificed at the foundation of the world. In that same sense, the blood was available to the penitent. Certainly, it wasn't the "real" sacrifice. But it was potent, nonetheless.

But perhaps we need to distinguish between the relationship and legal aspects of the plan of redemption. Forgiveness relates more to the relationship aspect, while the blood relates more to the legal.

It's not like God was sitting up there saying, "I'm not going to forgive you because I'm still waiting for the blood in the bowl." He forgives the penitent when they repent.

But when we're talking about blotting out our sins, paying the penalty for transgression, blood is required. For that reason, Jesus had to come down and die.

Now, some may disagree with that, but that's how I see it today. And I might not even be expressing myself well, since it's pretty late.

In the Old Testament, God forgave on the basis of what Christ would do - that is, without His sacrifice forgiveness would have been impossible. But at this time forgiveness was provisional, to become effective at the cross.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:23-26).

Quote from Darryl:
The fact that God took Enoch and Elijah to heaven without seeing death, and also resurrecting Moses from the dead and taking him to heaven tells me that there was forgiveness for sin even before the then future event of Christ shedding His blood for them and for us.
Unquote.

How can God do this? Redemption hasn’t taken place, blood of the Redeemer hasn’t been flown yet but God accepted sinners in heaven.

What is the legal aspect of His action?

Colossians 1:20 – And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Ephesians 2:16 – And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

How could God do things that is ahead of time, the Lamb is not slain yet, the blood is not flown yet, which mean, we (them) are still in our sins, but he accept Enoch, Noah and Moses in heaven? What is the legal aspect to do this? Were these three guys forgiven? Were these three guys righteous? On what base His judgment was done?

Quote from Asygo:
But perhaps we need to distinguish between the relationship and legal aspects of the plan of redemption. Forgiveness relates more to the relationship aspect, while the blood relates more to the legal.
Unquote.

Quoted from Rosangela:
In the Old Testament, God forgave on the basis of what Christ would do - that is, without His sacrifice forgiveness would have been impossible. But at this time forgiveness was provisional, to become effective at the cross.
Unquote.

In His love

James S.

As Arnold quoted earlier, Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The past and the future are present in God. He "inhabits eternity." (Isa 57:15) What will be and has been is both then and now and always. In other words, the death of Jesus will never stop being now. It's not something that only happened 2,000 years ago. It is fresh now and forever from the foundation of the world. It's a God thing.

Quote:
It's a God thing.
Unquote.

No better explanation for this?

In His love

James S

Yes, it is a God thing. That is, only God can inhabit eternity. Only Jesus can be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world forever and ever. His death on the cross will never cease being a present reality. His death has been and will be efficacious forever, which is why God was able to forgive sins before Jesus died on the cross. In other words, God is not bound by our time-space continuum. He inhabits eternity, which transcends our time-space continuum.

If Christ failed, if he didn't take the "cup", what happened? These three guys in heaven would descend back to earth, and all men are still in their sins.

The question is: are the sins of the people before the cross forgiven? If yes, whatever the result of Christ mission would have no effect to their status, but seems to me it is not so, it must wait till the fulfilment of grace.

In His love

James S

Yes. And all who have ever sinned would reap the wages of sin - eternal death.

I am not satisfied with yours arguments here, because I think there is something lacking.
Rom the bible texts we may see that the basic of sin’s forgiveness is Christ’ sacrifice on the cross, “without blood there is no forgiveness.”
But since “Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and the fact that there are three guys (Enoch, Elijah and Moses) in heaven, we think that their sins must be forgiven for good, otherwise they would be not there.
But this view, I think is not in harmony with what the bible told us, so I have my own opinion, and seek your counter opinion to find a satisfactory answer to my question.
I think, these guys sin’s were not forgiven yet because Christ has not been sacrificed, how could He that bore the sins of the world forgives them and justify them to live eternally while He was still in heaven and hasn’t come down yet as a man?
But since He was appointed and chosen as the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, God dare to transfer their sins to Christ, for He knew that Christ would be successful in bearing the sins of the world and its penalties through his death. Thus, in this view, the guys were stand righteous before God that He may justify them to live in heaven, but owing all to the future event that would take place at Calvary one day.
God is in debt, that He must pay one day through Jesus death.
So, the question: are their sins forgiven, is answered, not yet! Just transferred to Christ and owing to an future event that would take place at Calvary, where at His resurrection, the sins of the world is at once all forgiven, giving humanity the right to live, because they stand righteous in Christ.
I think, this is clarify in the Sacrificial laws of the Jews, where the sins of the nation is transferred to the ark and must wait till the Day of Atonement for a symbolical forgiveness, cause this too is just a shadow of the thing to come.
(Read Romans 3:23-25)

In His love

James S.

James, the sins of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were "forgiven" the moment they confessed them, however, their sins were not "blotted out" until sometime after 1844.

As I mentioned before, you're amalgamating forgiveness and atonement.

But realize that sins were NOT blotted out at Christ's resurrection. If you're thinking about sins being erased from the record, that has to wait until the close of probation.