Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Posted By: Linda Sutton

Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/14/03 07:18 PM

This study is for those who are asking questions about Bible prophecy and the war and for those who may not have thought that this war being fought in Iraq is anything more than just the USA meddling in world affairs again. I am posting here what I have discovered and what the Lord has revealed to me concerning this war. We have already been told that we should study the books of Daniel and Revelation.
quote:
Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for history will be repeated. . . . We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. {TM 116.3}

God's Spirit has illuminated every page of Holy Writ, but there are those upon whom it makes little impression, because it is imperfectly understood. When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness. . . . Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. Let there be light, yes, light, in your dwellings. For this we need to pray. The Holy Spirit, shining upon the sacred page, will open our understanding, that we may know what is truth. . . . {TM 112.1}

There is need of a much closer study of the word of God; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the papacy; but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has so shaped matters, both in the giving of the prophecy and in the events portrayed, as to teach that the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and that the Lord God of heaven and His law are to be exalted. Read the book of Daniel. Call up, point by point, the history of the kingdoms there represented. Behold statesmen, councils, powerful armies, and see how God wrought to abase the pride of men, and lay human glory in the dust. . . . {TM 112.2}

The light that Daniel received from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon come to pass. {TM 112.3. all emphasis mine}

I believe that we Seventh-day Adventists sometimes forget that "soon come to pass" must at some point become "currently taking place." In 9T there is an even more pointed and direct quote:
quote:
The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the eleventh chapter of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. {9T 14.2}
Look at the last 6 verses of Daniel 11.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Those who have studied the prophecies know that when Israel, God's people were attacked by Assyria and Babylon, the enemy came from the direction of the north. The enemy to the south was Egypt. Babylon represents Catholicism and apostate Protestantism. It is the USA that will set up the image of the beast acting as the agent of the papacy, the modern king of the north. Egypt, the king of the south, did not recognize the God of heaven. Neither does Islam. Allah is NOT Jehovah. This is established in Revelation chapter 9:1-11.

*Star represents an angel: Rev. 1:19
*Satan fell like lightening from heaven: Luke 10:18
*The king over them is the "angel of the bottomless pit." See Rev. 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3.

There are 1 billion Catholics in the world and there are 1 billion Muslims in the world. In order for the papacy to regain world domination, as foretold in Rev. 13, she must gain control of the Muslim world. Remember that the papacy hides her true agenda and operates covertly behind the scenes to bring about her own ends. Today would be no different than in the past. While giving lip service to lamenting the current war, she is, at the very least, using it to spread her power. But Iraq has only a small percentage of the Muslim population of the world. If you read again the verses in Daniel 11, it tells the extent the war will cover. Even now, there is talk about this war spreading to Syria and Iran.

Ezekiel chapter 32 gives more detail. An interesting note on this chapter can be found in verses 23-27. In these verses several middle eastern countries are named that will be slain by the sword. In each verse it says of these nations: they "caused terror in the land of the living." Did the Bible foretell a time of terrorists?

Those nations and their modern equivalents are:
*Egypt — Egypt
*Asshur — Iraq
*Meshech — Turkey
*Edom — Jordan, part of Saudi Arabia
*Tubal — Turkey
*Zidon — Lebanon
*Princes of the North — Iran, and probably could include former Soviet Republics such as Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kurdistan, etc, and other Asian Muslim countries.

This war may appear to be about over, but you will notice, if you listen to the news, that the US government won't say it is over.

In Daniel 2, when the 3 Hebrew men refused to bow to the image set up on Dura's plain, how quickly was the work of erecting that image done? It didn't occur overnight. It took at least months to prepare the gold, shape it into the image, build the base on which it stood, erect it, then issue the decrees ordering the people to assemble and worship the image. Americans, Adventists included, will wake up one morning and find they have been summoned to worship the image of the beast, and wonder how it came to be so quickly. Satan works under cover of darkness. Even now, we must believe that the image is being prepared and the base being built for it. The current war is probably serving a two-fold purpose — permitting the building of the image, and eliminating the largest hindrance to the world domination of the papacy.

It is my belief from my study that when this war is over, after it has spread to the entire Middle East, that we will see the National Sunday Laws be enacted and spread worldwide. "Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts." (PK 226:1). This is not the time for God's people to be sleeping but to be working, praying, weeping for the sins and abominations in the church. This is not the time for argument and for seeking out strange theories and ideas that have nothing to do with proclaiming the messages of the 3 angels to the whole world.

What I have posted here is not complete, as I didn't intend for it to be. Paul wrote that we are to study for ourselves. We need to come before the Lord with our Bibles and ask earnestly for the outpouring of the Holy Spirt to enlighten our minds and give us wisdom that we might understand these things. I have placed this here because the Lord has impressed me to do so as there are people who are truly searching for answers and if they will go to their Bibles, God will open to them His mysteries.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/14/03 11:42 PM

One thing is for sure - whatever way it all comes together; that we need to be ready, rather than "getting ready."

9T 11 tells us: "The final movements will be rapid ones."

I think that the war in Iraq is definitely a part of what we can all read about in Mat.24. "Wars & rumors of wars."

But do we have license to actually say how God will bring about these "final movements," through specific events, such as this war? We could perhaps spell out the possiblitity or potentials; and that would probably be more amenable to the accounting of the final movements in Mat.24? The order of events there seems like it might clash with the order of events Linda has stated above?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/15/03 04:11 AM

I read with interest what Linda posted. If it leads any of us to study the books of Daniel and Revelation, then I am all for what Linda posted. I think what Linda posted deserves careful examination.

As the USA is obviously factored as a key element in the prophecy of these last days, their activity against Iraq, and now their anger against Syria, bears careful scrutiny. It could very well be one of the landmarks of the lamblike beast beginning to speak like a dragon. I heard on the news where Syria has been weakened by the defeat of the regime in Iraq in which Syria is now sandwiched with Israel on one side and the Americans occupying Iraq on the other side.

David asked if the order of events there, which I believe is Matthew 24, seems like it might clash with the order of events Linda has stated above. In what way?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/15/03 05:09 AM

Good questions Daryl;

and I didn't mean to dismiss Linda's post as unimportant. [Smile] I have always been taught, however, that great caution should be exercised in stating exactly what will happen with "final events," by taking a war out of it's context, and making it into such a specific, endtime scenario. I think I may have good reason for saying this; and maybe I could start with the question:

What else is there, besides a war, ( or this war), or "rumors of wars," that the Bible tells us must come about just before Jesus comes?

When a Sunday Law comes, will we really have this much warning?
******
I am writing this short edit, as I forgot to include one additional thought that I think would explain what I am saying a bit more.

I am sure that everyone recalls the first Gulf War, and a number of other wars, involving the USA and other countries.

It seems that with every new war that arises, we hear the cries about how the end is near. "This war is the big one." Is it right to seize on each war that comes along, and use it as a catalyst to promote our prophecies? What is being said about the current conflict in Iraq, has also been said about many other past wars.

Do we not need more credibility than this?

And how should we balance the picture in Iraq, with the flip side of the coming Sunday Law Crises? The Second coming of Christ, as depicted in Mat.24 tells us of the stark scene where Jesus says to the disciples: "then shall they deliver you up to tribulation," (Mat.24:9), and in the same text, he said: "you will be hated by all nations, for My name's sake." This can mean nothing other than the fact that Jesus was looking down the corridors of time - right to the very end, and predicting tribulation all the way.

Tribulation...it is not a single event to mark the end. it is ongoing till Jesus comes, and simply increases in intensity till then.

I am questioning what has been said about this war in Iraq too, because Jesus clearly warned us ahead of time, of certain troubles; but he took special care to make sure we recognize that these were not "signs..."

"But the end is not yet..." Mat.24:6.

In Mat.24:15 we are told that when we see certain things happening; then we need to make a special effort to understand the book of Daniel. Why?

Because "the end is not yet," there is more to the picture.

Jesus speaks about several things as being "tribulations," such as

a) tribulations Mat.24:9
b) apostasy Mat.24: 10-12
c) success of the gospel - Mat.24:14

These things appear to be signs we are to look for as fully developed AFTER the troubles like a) war, b) famine c) earthquakes that are mentioned by Christ in Mat.24:4-8 which he calls just "the beginning of the birth pangs." (vs.8). This is where I get the part of tribulations increasing in intensity. As in a human birth, of which I have watched several; it really multiplies in intensity.

While it is good to quote Spirit Of Prophecy; our faith and doctrine can stand alone on Scripture, if need be.

Caution is needed here, because Jesus said: "You do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (mat.24:42), and it would be a shame to predict certain things that we "think" will soon happen, and have another "great disappointment."

I don't think we can afford to give the trumpet such an uncertain sound, by saying what's going to happen with this war in Iraq. Because we really don't know; and the Bible does not tell us.

Well, I don't know if this "edit" was "short" or not, but it was a good study for me. [Smile] I pray that we can work together for Jesus, and put these times we live in, in proper, Biblical perspective. [Smile]

[ April 15, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]
Posted By: Gregory

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/15/03 04:26 PM

As I look at the international scene, and read between the lines of the military effort, I find that there is much happening now thata could be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I think that these times are very serious.

However, in my presonal orientation, I prefer to clearly state that Bible prophecy was fulfilled after the event. So, I do not say that it is being fulfilled in what we see happening today.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/15/03 05:59 PM

I think Linda's main point was that this war, initiated by the USA in that it is a USA driven war, should be a signal, or at least a reminder, that we need to study the books of Daniel and Revelation:

quote:

Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for history will be repeated. . . . We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. {TM 116.3}

In other words, we need to look at what is happening and examine the books of Revelation and Daniel in connection with these unfolding events, and how it changes the attitude of the USA, the Middle East, the Moslem world, the Christian world, etc. for as it says above in the quote that Linda quoted, history will repeat itself therefore, is history being repeated here, and, if so, how, or in what way, is it being repeated?

The title of Linda's topic though is whether this war is a fulfillment of prophecy? Is it? If yes, then what Bible prophecy is it a fulfillment of? If no, then, as David stated, is it simply another sign of Matthew 24?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/16/03 06:19 AM

I remember my uncle telling me how certain SDA church leaders and members attempted to prove that WWI and then WWII were fulfillments of prophecy. They wrangled this and that passage from the Bible and SOP convincing themselves and others that Sunday laws were going to be enforced and probation was about to close.

Who knows? Maybe things could have ended back then, but apparently the church was not ready to give the three warning messages, and so yet more opportunites passed us by. Personally I do not see that a war with Iraq or any other Muslim nation has anything to do with fulfilling prophecy. But I am more than willing to be wrong if it means we can go home soon.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/15/03 09:00 PM

If nothing else, I believe it is a stepping stone towards the fulfilling of prophecy, and it could be a giant stepping stone at that.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/16/03 03:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
[QB] I think Linda's main point was that this war, initiated by the USA in that it is a USA driven war, should be a signal, or at least a reminder, that we need to study the books of Daniel and Revelation:

Hello Daryl

I am wondering about your statement regarding how the US started this war...How would you explain such a statement in light of Sept.11th/01 @ the WTC? I am not so sure that the US started this war, and therefore, the relation of this war to Bible prophecy becomes something different than what we are hearing from some.

Gregory may have been hinting at the fact that there is more to this war, than "Freedom For Iraq" when he talked about "reading between the lines;" and I do agree with that.

But if we look above in the Bible text I supplied, Jesus was very clear in stating that some of these things we are seeing are not "signs."

We are certainly in agreement on the need to study Daniel & the Revelation. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on which texts in these two books would be most applicable to us right now?

With me, the text I would have to mention is Dan.11:32: "The people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

Maybe we should ask; "Is this happening now?" And if not, "Why?"

[ April 16, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/18/03 03:32 AM

One of the things I look for as a sign that the end is near is that the prophecy regarding the drying up of the Euphrates is one of earth's final events. U Smith interpreted that event (Revelation 15 or 16 I think) as being the drying up of the sovereignty of the Arab nations that occupy that area. I think he was right. It's true that we had the Golf War a decade ago, and it's true that peace could return to the region, but if you compare the situation now with ten years ago, the chances of the Arabs cooperating with their occupiers are not good.

Does this have anything to do with you're feeling that the end is near Linda. Is there anything more you can add.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/18/03 11:28 AM

Hello Mark

Sorry if I did not make myself clear.

You present an interesting point; but this is what I think is being questioned right now...I will quote from Linda's first post:

"It is my belief from my study that when this war is over, after it has spread to the entire Middle East, that we will see the National Sunday Laws be enacted and spread worldwide."

Mark

If you check page 691-94 of this book by Uriah Smith; you will also see that he is placing the "drying up of the Euphrates" as something that happens during the seven last plagues;" at the time of the 6th plague, to be exact.

The key event to be noticed in this plague, would be the issuing forth of "three unclean spirits like frogs..." (Rev.16:3).

I find it difficult to associate the current conflict in Iraq, within this time setting by Uriah Smith.

What are your thoughts? I would appreciate hearing them. [Smile]

[ April 18, 2003, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/20/03 12:44 AM

Revelation
16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Where in the SOP does she describe an Arab-American conflict during the seven last plagues?

Instead of a war between two rival nations near the Euphrates River I read Ellen White describing the forehead marked followers of spiritual Babylon withdrawing their support and turning their weapons upon her and the blood bath that ensues. This makes sense in light of water symbolizing people and the Euphrates River being the water supply for Babylon.

1. The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

2. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/20/03 12:51 AM

Daryl, why do you believe a US war with Iraq is a giant stepping stone toward the fulfillment of prophecy? which prophecy are you referring to? where in the SOP do you get this idea?
Posted By: Pete P Pete

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/20/03 01:11 AM

I agree with Gregory that we can see the fulfillment of prophecy after the events have transpired. I have to say that I was an SDA for a long time before I realized this fact.

A number of years ago I heard a sermon at camp meeting in which the speaker pointed out the many times over the past decades that Adventists, not necessarily the church, have said that "this is it" with respect to the end. And it wasn't "it."

This is not to say that there does not seem to be a confluence of events that could unfold as some have speculated. It destroys credibility, however, when we say this current event will lead to this other event, etc.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/20/03 05:30 AM

I wasn't referring to any specific prophecy, however, I was referring to the USA's war against Iraq as an indication of the USA beginning to speak more agressively which is a beginning of a different kind of voice as depicted in prophecy in which the lamblike beast is beginning to speak like a _____________. You can fill in the blank. [Smile]
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/20/03 07:36 AM

Daryl, it sounds like you have determined that the US action against Iraq was preemptive or unprovoked. That's easy for us to say. We didn't live under the repressive regime of Saddam. We didn't live in fear of our lives if we spoke the truth about our government. People who oppose the action taken against Saddam in essence approve of his form of dictatorship. Can you imagine how different history would be if Europe had cared enough to check the tide of Hitler's maddness before it got out of control? instead of waiting until it was too late? Did you oppose detente during the cold war? or are you happy communism fell in Russia?

Ask all of those Iraqis who celebrated the downfall of Saddam - Are you sorry he's gone? The truth be told the world is a better and safer place without him in power. Perhaps you're glad he's gone too. But how can you insinuate the US used bad judgment or acted like a "dragon" because she ousted a mad man and a murderer? Did you really think it was humane to stand by and allow him to abuse his people and fund terrorism while the liberals continued hoping he would eventually listen to reason and common sense?

It is one of the duties of a super power to liberate the downtrodden. When freedom and democracy begin to work in Iraq the other Arab nations are going to seek the same. Once the doors of freedom are open Christian missionaries will be able to share the gospel with whoever is willing to listen. And when this gospel is preached in the world as a witness Jesus can return. Amen! Thank you President Bush! Thank you Jesus!
Posted By: Dora

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/21/03 06:57 AM

The conflict in and around Iraq and the Euphrates River could easily be taken as something being literally fulfilled in the prophecy in Rev. 16:12.
But, as it has been pointed out there are some things we know to be true which shows this text is speaking symbolically.

This event spoken of, the "Drying up of the Euphrates," does not occur until the last plagues.
Also, as we are reminded in the book, "God Cares," by Mervyn Maxwell, "In 1944,the allies successfully crossed the English Channel in places where the channel is 100 miles wide. Where the Euphrates flows through Syria, the area most likely for a crossing is mucn less than a mile in width.....hardly an obstacle, even if it were running full."

So, doesn't it seem that this has to be a different kind of warfare, a different meaning to the Euphrates, as Mike has stated below:

..................................................
Instead of a war between two rival nations near the Euphrates River I read Ellen White describing the forehead marked followers of spiritual Babylon withdrawing their support and turning their weapons upon her and the blood bath that ensues. This makes sense in light of water symbolizing people and the Euphrates River being the water supply for Babylon.
..................................................

[ April 21, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dora ]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/21/03 12:07 PM

Hi Dora

You stated it well.

Since it is easy to see the time period when whatever does happen with the Euphrates River happens; we can atleast be sure that the current situation in Iraq is no more a "sign" than any number of other conflicts in the world today.

Besides, some of the major "signs" involve deception. Not war.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/21/03 05:07 PM

Mike and others,

All I am saying is that the USA has taken what I see as an about face.

The USA stayed out of World War 2 until the Pearl Harbour incident.

Why was that?

Why didn't they make a pre-emptive strike against Germany under Hitler as they did against Iraq under Hussein?

Why did they stay out of the war of liberation and freedom until they were forced into the war as a result of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour?

Could the answer be that there is a shift in the attitude of the USA which is transforming it from the features of a lamb to that of a dragon?

September 11th was obviously a pivotal date towards this change of attitude.

These are the events that are setting the USA up to the very slow but prophetic transformation.
Posted By: Dora

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/21/03 10:09 PM

Although, as in my post above, I do not see the war with Iraq having anything to do with "the drying up of the Euphrates," as a literal happening.

On the other hand, no doubt the devil loves the geography mentioned here, for he can cause some to look at these as literal applications.

Daryl, as I also stated above, much as I hate to think it, I feel the US is shifting its attitude, and it is transforming from the features of a lamb to that of a dragon.

I thought your last sentence very appropriate.

"These are the events that are setting the USA up to the very slow but prophetic transformation."

It seems that in almost indiscernable ways, these things are happening, and I believe it is not any one thing that is THE determining factor, but, it is rather like building blocks, and one day we will look, and be startled to see the "tower" is already in place!

Then"the final movements will be rapid ones....."
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/25/03 03:14 AM

I hope you'll tell us more Linda if you feel impressed to.

Last weekend I reviewed the SDA Bible Commentary on the 6th plague and Armageddon. The commentators tell us that there have been two main views in Adventism - the older first put forward in the 1860's by James White - that Armageddon and the drying up of the Euphrates is symbolic of the demise of Babylon - and the view of a decade or two later by U Smith - that attaches more significance to the geographical location of the Euphrates than White. The commentators point out that the two views have more in comman than they differ. The commentators also seem to lean towards the opinion that a synthisis of both views may be the best answer.

I tend to agree. The main area that I think those who adopt the view of James White need to consider is the evidence in other scripture that the Asian nations will be the means that God will use to punish Babylon.
Posted By: zyph

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/25/03 04:44 AM

Mike, I am really astonished that you see George Bush as doing the work of the Lord. If he was doing the work the Lord wants him to, he would be giving homes to the homeless and addressing the grinding poverty and ecological issues at home. If God elects leaders, might God not have elected Saddam Hussein? And therefore, how dare another country decide what is best. This war was not for freeing anyone. The reasons for theis so-called war - in reality an attack by the United States - have changed regularly. Where was America when the East Timorese were being slaughtered in the tens of thousands? To thank George Bush and Jesus in the same breath is astonishing to me.

A recent article published on a large religious site defined George Bush's apocalyptic vision, and explained that he believes the Middle East turmoil can hasten Jesus' return. I may still have the link if you're interested. If you can't see the image to the beast in recent events, I would suggest you read Great Controversy again.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/26/03 04:06 AM

Manuscript Releases Volume One----PG- 49
Succession of Empires Governed by Law of Obedience
"Hundreds of years before certain nations came upon the stage of action, the Omniscient One looked down the ages, and predicted through His servants the prophets the rise and fall of the universal kingdoms. The prophet Daniel, when interpreting to the king of Babylon the dream of the great image, --an image symbolic of the kingdoms of the world,--declared to Nebuchadnezzar that his kingdom should be superseded. His greatness and power in God's world would have their day, and a second kingdom would arise, which also would have its period of trial as to whether it would exalt the one Ruler, the only true God. Not doing this, its glory would fade away, and a third kingdom would occupy its place. Proved by obedience or disobedience,
this also would pass away; and a fourth, strong as iron, would subdue the nations of the world. These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. . . .
Posted By: zyph

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/26/03 10:35 AM

So every murder/assassination of every leader of every country is ordained by God? Where does the sin factor come into this? Is it impossible to wantonly murder a political leader by virtue of them being a leader?
Posted By: Pete P Pete

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/26/03 03:03 PM

In Endtime Issues #18, Bacchiocchi has made some interesting obsrvation. Whether one agrees or not they still are provocative. "The presence of injustice in this world, where ruthless dictators like Saddan Hussein violate the rights of innocent people with impunity, raises the question: What is the Christian responsibility toward people suffering under oppressive political regimes? Can Christians morally ignore ruthless dictators who slaughter dissenters and threaten the security of other nations? Should Christian nations that have technological, financial, and human resources engage in wars of liberation like the current "operation Iraqui freedom"?"

Another quote: "It appears to me that taking a stand against ruthless, dictatorial regimes is a moral necessity for Christians. Dietrich Bonhoeffer could have saved his life by following the strategy of some political and religious leaders, like the Pope himself, who tried diplomatic solutions that entailed partial cooperation with Hitler. But, he chose to take a stand against the atrocities being committed by Hitler's regime. We salute him for his willingness to pay the price of imprisonment and ultimately death."

And one more quote: "Comparatively speaking the participation of European countries in these wars of liberation has been minimal. European politicians, including my Italian countrymen, are great philosophers. They talk a lot about international problems, but they do very little about them. Michael Novak, a perceptive TV commentator, rightly observes that the "Europeans are living in a kind of welfare paradise, which they are not willing to give up. Since 1945, they have by and large been content for the people of the United States to pay the huge expenses of defending them from the Soviet Union and other threats. Meanwhile, they have concentrated on building a prosperous and comfortable life, at a level of popular wealth never known before in the history of Europe."

Read the entire article for yourself. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/
Posted By: Avalee

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/26/03 04:06 PM

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_98.html

Pete did you mean this one? #18 I believe was on the state of the dead or something else. But 98 is on Iraq.

I am not endorcing Dr. Bacchiocchi, however he does give a good study on this and I intend to print this one out and study the scriptures he gives.

No one likes war. The innocent always get hurt. I am proud of my country and our servicemen who have given their time and lives to free a country that was being run by such a cruel regime. And I am proud of President Bush in his stand on this. Yes, I to believe that the making of the beast is being set up. But people this IS going to happen no matter who is in the President seat. I for one am happy that day is coming faster and faster. This old world is not my home. I praise God for His hand in the affairs of this world. He is in control of all the world affairs. We may not like or understand how things are working out, but they are working out the way they are soppose to. No need to fear...God is in control and He will take care of you. Our job is to warn those we come in contact with that the end of the world is about to come and they need to have their allegience on the side of God not the world.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/27/03 06:01 AM

One of the issues that is almost certain to confront every SDA is whether they support the position of their country whether it is the USA or any other nation to go to war.

There is a thread on combatancy in the SDA Church Issues forum that deals with the issue of bearing arms, but it also includes some quotes that have a bearing on how SDA's should relate to their own governments that are at war.

Here is one of the quotes below. I don't want to take this thread more off topic so I may open another thread on how we should relate to that issue.

quote:
I was shown the dreadful state of our nation, and again was referred to Isaiah 58; 59:1-15, as a description of the present state of things in our nation, and the reason for their present calamity. This is a most unrighteous war. The inhabitants of the earth have forgotten God. They have trampled upon His law and broken the everlasting covenant. They have despised His Sabbath. The fourth commandment was shown me as a golden link which God designed should serve as a bond of union uniting man to man and connecting earth to heaven and finite man to the infinite God.

But the man of sin has exalted himself above God, and has sought to break this golden chain, yet it is not broken. It exists yet, and will continue to exist as long as the new heavens and earth remain. Anciently God went before His people to battle against their enemies, but holy and consecrated ones bore the ark containing the ten precepts of Jehovah, and if any had transgressed any one of these ten commandments in the decalogue God turned His face from His people and suffered the enemy to make a dreadful slaughter. If Israel kept the ten precepts, a copy of which was contained in the ark they bore with them, God's angels fought with the armies of Israel, and although their numbers were ever so small, He turned back their enemies and gave them a triumphant victory.

Sabbathkeepers now cannot expect this, and should not, upon any consideration, engage in this terrible war. They have nothing to hope for. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy; the inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, famine, and pestilence.--Ms 5, 1862, pp. 1, 2. ("Regarding the Civil War," circa 1862.) Published in Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 111 - 112
Chapter Title: The Civil War

Notice above that Sister White characterizes the Civil War as a judgment from God on the entire nation for it’s breach of the fourth commandment. She roundly condemns the war out of hand calling it “a most unrighteous war”. Both the North and the South are condemned, and her advise is to have nothing to do with it. Her position regarding the North is what surprized me. What would she say today regarding some of the calamities that have befallen the US?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/28/03 07:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Shipowick:
One of the issues that is almost certain to confront every SDA is whether they support the position of their country whether it is the USA or any other nation to go to war.

[/QUOTE]

Hello Mark

This statement you made may be true; however, I see this, (war),if it occurs, almost as a side issue.

It is very difficult to encapsulate the current conflict in Iraq as “prophecy” or as a “sign,” for several good Biblical reasons.

One, as I have stated above, is because Jesus tells us in Mathew 24 that many of the “wars and rumors of wars” simply are not signs…”they are but the beginning of sorrows.” I suppose, in that sense only, we could agree with brother Daryl’s statement that this current conflict in Iraq “could be a small stepping stone.”

“All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Mat.24:8

“And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.” Mat.24:6

It is important though for us to clearly distinguish that we cannot use a single or specific conflict/war to say that “the end is near,” as people have done this with every major conflict in the world, so we would not be Biblically accurate exponents of prophecy, if we let our imaginations follow suit with the rest of the world on this point.

As a people of prophecy, we desire to warn people that “the end is near,” (which is good); and we can know for certain when world affairs do reach this state of being.

The greatest signs of end time scenarios on the world stage, is marked more by SPECIFIC DECEPTIONS, rather than specific, historical events such as a war.

Let us take a summarized view of the scenarios to watch for:

Revelation 13:13: "And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. "

Who is performing these “great and miraculous signs?”

Please remember, it was the Holy Spirit who brought fire from heaven to earth to anoint the original disciples at Pentecost (Acts 2). What we have here in Rev.13:13 is a counterfeit of not only the Holy Spirit, but Pentecost.

But let us also ask: “Why does the fire come down here?”

Verse 14 tells us two things:

1/ "Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. “

2/ “He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived."

These texts indicate that we can expect a great, final, worldwide deception in which a counterfeit trinity will stand in the place of God. Everything that happens on the world stage is clearly geared to either support of this deception; or, in carrying out the genuine Trinity’s designs for “the everlasting gospel.”

Let us be ever mindful that the purpose of the counterfeit is to deceive the world. The counterfeit Pentecost confuses people about the true God and His purposes for the last days of earth's history. Counterfeit “signs” will be widely used to deceive people about “the end.” The one that will culminate events to be played out is depicted in Rev.3:10 as “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

The devil has two primary methods of dealing with human beings:

1/ he counterfeits the work of God to deceive and persuade people

2/ he uses force, trying to persuade us by intimidation and persecution

If you closely look at history, force has had its limits and persecution usually backfires, in favor of “the everlasting gospel.” As Paul puts it: “What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice…” And it is in thise very sense that God’s people “rejoice in all things.”.

When a person's faith comes under threat, it either becomes stronger; or it is left in ruins. In the face of violent opposition, or blatant deception; knowing the Word becomes charged with even more importance and fervency.

In the last days of earth's history, Satan brings in deception refined to such a perfection so that people will not be able to tell which side is right whether they are dealing with Christ or Satan; unless they know the Bible; and it is upon this point alone that God’s people need to spring into a concerted, cooperative effort. Knowing the Bible, and making it known.

“God will be with everyone who seeks to understand the truth that he may set it before others in clear lines. God has spoken plainly and clearly. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come." Revelation 22:17. We are to make no delay in giving instruction to those who need it, that they may be brought to a knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus.” 6T.314.003

In the last days things will not be as they seem to be. And then we can say with all the force of Scripture: “The end is near.”

Lu 21:28 “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”
Posted By: Dora

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/29/03 12:12 AM

David,
I really appreciated your last post, and it also causes us to ask "how can we escape being deceived by the counterfeit?"

In GC 625 is some well known counsel to many Seventh Day Adventists:

"Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? Satan will, if possible, prevent them from obtaining a preparation to stand in that day. He will so arrange affairs as to hedge up their way, entangle them with earthly treasures, cause them to carry a heavy, wearisome burden, that their hearts may be overcharged with the cares of this life and the day of trial may come upon them as a thief."

I wondered, as I read this in GC, to how many of us does this apply? And, I would have to say, that in some way, probably to us all! Just daily living in this world is such a challenge, and Satan knows exactly what our weakest points are, and how to get to us. He knows how to cause trials and irritations that take our time from Bible study and prayer, and our mind off Jesus.

So, is there any hope, any safety for us? And what is the "work" we are to do?

"Thou will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Thee: because He trusteth in Thee." Isa.26:3 and, "in quietness and confidence shall be your strength....." Isa.30:15.

When chaos and confusion swirls around us, like a maelstrom even in our own homes, we can experience that "peace like a river," if our mind is "stayed on Jesus," through study, committing the Word to memory, and being "instant in prayer." To me, this means having in my mind always, that "Jesus is near," just as a loving parent, waiting for us to be in constant communication with him, sometimes with words, sometimes with just "quietness," as He speaks to us, and He will be our strength, and our refuge.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/29/03 03:34 AM

[Big Grin]
Dora! Are you following me on the net or what?? [Smile]

I'll have to find a good place to hide!

[ May 08, 2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]
Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/29/03 11:52 AM

Linda has started a very timely thread her, and I pray it will motivate people to study again the prophecies about the end-time. We are now living at a time when several of these end-time prophecies are rapidly converging toward fulfillment.

1. The United States is successor to Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome as KING OF THE NORTH. And Iraq may well be successor to Egypt as KING OF THE SOUTH. Now look at Daniel 11:40 and apply it to this present “time of the end," when the king of the south will “PUSH AT” the king of the north, who will then come against the king of the south “LIKE A WHIRLWIND.” If the United States now carries out its implied threats to “enter into” other countries, then we can be confident that we are now in that period referred to by Ellen White when she wrote:
quote:
The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the eleventh chapter of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. 9T 11.

The wars and rumors of wars, the destruction by fire and flood, say clearly that the time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is very near at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfilment. EGW in RH 11-24-1904.

2. Daniel 11:41 reads: “He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown.” Please note that the word “countries” is in italics in the Bible. That means it is a supplied word, not found in the original manuscripts. In our time, “the glorious land” is a symbol of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. So by leaving out that supplied word, we find this prophecy to be in agreement with the one in Revelation 13 about end-time persecutions by the two-horned beast.

3. We see the nations of Europe uniting, and becoming more and more critical of the United States. At the same time there is a push by the papacy to have these nations declared “Christian” (read, Catholic). Now read Revelation 17, where the harlot (apostate Protestant America) starts out in control of the situation, as in Revelation 13. But the beast there is a revival of the first beast of Revelation 13. The nations of Europe (symbolized by the 10 western kingdoms in the original breakup of the Roman Empire) are said to “receive authority with the beast for one hour.” During this very short period of time, they will “hate the harlot and burn her up with fire.” Revelation 17:12-13,16. (It is a future Sunday law that will be “giving life” to the papal beast, and “restore” its “lost ascendancy.” 5T 712; EGW in RH 6-15-1897. That was not accomplished by giving the papacy a couple acres of land back in 1948, as some say).

4. I believe there is one more line of prophecy to consider here; and I recognize it is more controversial, so be more cautious on accepting this unless future events prove it to be accurate. I believe we are seeing the beginning of the Revelation 6 events right now. Evangelicals believe the rider on the white horse is the antichrist; but Revelation 19:11 makes it evident this is Jesus, going forth “conquering and to conquer” in a wonderful way. As we see the rapid advance of the gospel around the world, we must consider the possibility that we are seeing the leadership of Jesus on that symbolic white horse. So Revelation 6 presents another “series of events” for us to consider as we watch the rapid march toward the second coming of Christ. Compare with the following:
quote:

There will be a series of events revealing that God is master of the situation. The truth will be proclaimed in clear, unmistakable language. 9T 96.

I saw that the powers of earth are now being shaken and that events come in order. War, and rumors of war, sword, famine, and pestilence are first to shake the powers of earth, then the voice of God will shake the sun, moon, and stars, and this earth also. EW 41.

There seemed to be a little time of peace. Once more the inhabitants of the earth were presented before me; and again everything was in the utmost confusion. Strife, war, and bloodshed, with famine and pestilence, raged everywhere. Other nations were engaged in this war and confusion. War caused famine. Want and bloodshed caused pestilence. And then men's hearts failed them for fear, "and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." 1 T 268.

I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments upon them, and they rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed. EW 33.

The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll. 6T 17.

When the fifth seal was opened, John the Revelator in vision saw beneath the altar the company that were slain for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. After this came the scenes described in the eighteenth of Revelation, when those who are faithful and true are called out from Babylon. Maranatha 199.

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness….The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob's trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs' graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convent vaults: "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev 6:10). 5T 451.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 03:42 AM

"The wars and rumors of wars, the destruction by fire and flood, say clearly that the time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is very near at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfilment."
EGW in RH 11-24-1904.

This quote will be 100 years old in a few short months.

A proper Scriptural grounding here would explain it all much better. I see the above EG White quotes as lifted out of the author's intended context based on the fact that "the end is near," was said 100 years ago, in this quote; as I have stated above, that people have been saying for longer than 100 years.

If these EGW quotes are intended to dismiss the above Scripture evidence presented; then it would indeed be a use of her writings that she had never intended.

I agree with Stan; that this topic is worthwhile; and it will be doubly so, if it gets even one more person studying more closely the books of Daniel & Revelation.

The Bible facts of the matter, especially in context to initial comments re the Iraq conflict; seems to indicate something more overwhelming than a specific conflict, in specific geographic locations.

Over and over again; the Bible and the Spirit Of Prophecy warns against overwhelming delusions and deceptions, as the over riding signal, that will herald in "the time of trouble."

I have supplied some Scripture above; which are supported well in Ellen White's writings by such as:

"EW.088.002
I saw the rapidity with which this delusion was spreading. A train of cars was shown me, going with the speed of lightning. The angel bade me look carefully. I fixed my eyes upon the train. It seemed that the whole world was on board, that there could not be one left. Said the angel, "They are binding in bundles ready to burn." Then he showed me the conductor, who appeared like a stately, fair person, whom all the passengers looked up to and reverenced. I was perplexed and asked my attending angel who it was. He said, "It is Satan. He is the conductor in the form of an angel of light. He has taken the world captive. They are given over to strong delusions, to believe a lie, that they may be damned. This agent, the next highest in order to him, is the engineer, and other of his agents are employed in different offices as he may need them, and they are all going with lightning speed to perdition."

"The final movements will be rapid ones." 9T 11

I guess I am just questioning why we tend to join the rest of the christian world in repeating the phrase, "the end is near," (for over 100 years),when there are more immediate issues to be confronted.

The above quotes supplied by Stan seem to lend better support to an atmosphere, and an era of deception, rather than "the end?"

What do others think? [Smile]
Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 07:22 PM

David, I agree that we need to be careful not to change the meaning by lifting a phrase out of context. But a delay of 100 years for the words of our end-time prophet to be fulfilled seems quite reasonable in view of some of the time statements found in the Bible, and written nearly 2,000 years ago:
quote:
Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass. Revelation 1:1.

Behold, I come QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Revelation 3:11; see also 22:7, 12, 20.

Now compare what John wrote above, nearly 2,000 years ago, with that EGW statement written just 100 years ago:
quote:
"The wars and rumors of wars, the destruction by fire and flood, say clearly that the time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is VERY NEAR at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfilment." EGW in RH 11-24-1904.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 08:11 PM

Daryl and Zyph, I've been away for the last week. That's why I haven't answered you sooner. Plus this isn't my favorite thread. However, I do find it interesting that you are finding fault with the USA for deposing Saddam and working towards democracy in Iraq. If this is "speaking like a dragon" then I say - Praise God!

I believe it is very clear in the SOP that the USA doesn't begin speaking like a dragon until she begins enforcing the Sunday Sabbath. Liberating innocent citizens from the tryanny of Saddam hardly resembles a dragon. Do you think the USA would stand by and tolerate tyranny in Canada or Australia? Would you want her to? Or would you welcome her military if it meant the restoration of democracy and freedom?

Why didn't the USA enter WWII sooner? Because neither she nor the world perceived her as the only superpower back then. If the European nations did not perceive the threat of Nazi Germany - why should the USA? Did the world forget the lessons of WWII? It would appear so - that is, except for Britian and the USA. To sit back and allow Saddam to build weapons of mass destruction is tantamont to what happened in Europe during the years before WWII.
Posted By: Linda Sutton

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 08:17 PM

God’s instructions to us are very clear and were repeated many times: study the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. A sampling of those instructions are here quoted. I searched to see how many times we were instructed to study Matthew 24. I can’t find even one. We are instructed to study chapters 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 18, 25, and 28 but no 24.

Yet there is a great fear of studying the prophecies of these two great books. There is a fear among Adventists to say, “This is being fulfilled before our very eyes.” We’re afraid we might be wrong and someone might laugh at us. Poor William Miller. If he had had the same attitude, the first angel’s message would not have been preached by him. And it turned out he was wrong on one detail! Are we doing the same thing? Are we afraid to study for fear of what we might discover? Do we fear that we might be called on to give an unpopular message, unpopular even with Adventists? Are we so afraid of being deceived that perhaps we are actually being deceived while believing that we are avoiding it?

Delusions are rampant in these last days, but it is no delusion or deception to study the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. What message can we give that is more important to this world that those of Revelation 14, that we are living in the time of the judgment in heaven, that Babylon is fallen, and those who receive the mark of the beast will be destroyed when Jesus returns. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation flesh out the scenes of these messages. Our very salvation rests on our proper understanding of these messages.
quote:
As we near the close of this world's history, the prophecies recorded by Daniel demand our special attention, as they relate to the very time in which we are living. With them should be linked the teachings of the last book of the New Testament Scriptures. Satan has led many to believe that the prophetic portions of the writings of Daniel and of John the revelator cannot be understood. But the promise is plain that special blessing will accompany the study of these prophecies. "The wise shall understand" (verse 10), was spoken of the visions of Daniel that were to be unsealed in the latter days; and of the revelation that Christ gave to His servant John for the guidance of God's people all through the centuries, the promise is, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein." Revelation 1:3. {PK 547.2}
________________

Brethren, the Lord calls for copartnership in his work. He desires us to enlist our interests in his cause, as Daniel did. We should receive great benefits from a study of the book of Daniel in connection with the Revelation. Daniel studied the prophecies. He earnestly sought to know their meaning. He prayed and fasted for heavenly light. And the glory of God was revealed to him in even greater measure than he could endure. We are in equal need of divine illumination. God has called us to give the last message of warning to the world. There will be voices heard on every side to divert the attention of God's people with new theories. We need to give the trumpet a certain sound. We do not half realize what is before us. If the books of Daniel and the Revelation were studied with earnest prayer, we should have a better knowledge of the perils of the last days, and would be better prepared for the work before us--we should be prepared to unite with Christ and to work in his lines. {RH, February 9, 1897 par. 13}
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Those who make light of the third angel's message do so because they know little of Daniel or the Revelation. They have not read these prophecies with a determination to find out the meaning by prayer, by study, and by fasting. If they had had the experience of Daniel or of John, they would know that the third angel's message will go forth unto perfect victory. Those who proclaim that message because they see and believe it, will understand that very much is comprehended by it. The third angel is represented as flying through the heavens with a banner on which is inscribed, "The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." All who will gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their defections, and loyalty from their treason, will triumph with the third angel's message. {RH, June 8, 1897 par. 17}
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This is our work. The light that we have upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord's command to His servants is, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Isaiah 58:1. A message that will arouse the churches is to be proclaimed. Every effort is to be made to give the light, not only to our people, but to the world. I have been instructed that the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation should be printed in small books, with the necessary explanations, and should be sent all over the world. Our own people need to have the light placed before them in clearer lines. {CH 520.3}
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Ministers should present the sure word of prophecy as the foundation of the faith of Seventh-day Adventists. The prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation should be carefully studied, and in connection with them the words, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." {Ev 196.2}
________________

Prophecy has been fulfilling, line upon line. The more firmly we stand under the banner of the third angel's message, the more clearly shall we understand the prophecy of Daniel; for the Revelation is the supplement of Daniel. The more fully we accept the light presented by the Holy Spirit through the consecrated servants of God, the deeper and surer, even as the eternal throne, will appear the truths of ancient prophecy; we shall be assured that men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Men must themselves be under the influence of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Spirit's utterances through the prophets. These messages were given, not for those that uttered the prophecies, but for us who are living amid the scenes of their fulfillment. {2SM 114.2}
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I am in great travail of soul for our people. We are living in the perils of the last days. A superficial faith results in a superficial experience. There is a repentance that needs to be repented of. All genuine experience in religious doctrines will bear the impress of Jehovah. All should see the necessity of understanding the truth for themselves individually. We must understand the doctrines that have been studied out carefully and prayerfully. It has been revealed to me that there is among our people a great lack of knowledge in regard to the rise and progress of the third angel's message. There is great need to search the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, and learn the texts thoroughly, that we may know what is written. {2SM 392.1}
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"God has chosen a people who are to proclaim the third angel's message to the world. They are to be a separate and peculiar people in this world of churches who are transgressing his commandments. We have a special work to do to prepare the people for the greatest event the world has ever seen. The books of Daniel and Revelation are of great consequence to us, and should be studied with great earnestness. {RH, June 21, 1898 par. 38}
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In view of the testimony of Inspiration, how dare men teach that the Revelation is a mystery beyond the reach of human understanding? It is a mystery revealed, a book opened. The study of the Revelation directs the mind to the prophecies of Daniel, and both present most important instruction, given of God to men, concerning events to take place at the close of this world's history. {GC 341.3}
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As we near the close of this world's history, the prophecies relating to the last days especially demand our study. The last book of the New Testament scriptures is full of truth that we need to understand. Satan has blinded the minds of many, so that they have been glad of any excuse for not making the Revelation their study. But Christ through His servant John has here declared what shall be in the last days, and He says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein." Rev. 1:3. {COL 133.2}

Concerning Uriah Smith’s book:
quote:
Those who are preparing to enter the ministry, who desire to become successful students of the prophecies, will find Daniel and the Revelation an invaluable help. They need to understand this book. It speaks of past, present, and future, laying out the path so plainly that none need err therein. Those who will diligently study this book will have no relish for the cheap sentiments presented by those who have a burning desire to get out something new and strange to present to the flock of God. The rebuke of God is upon all such teachers. They need that one teach them what is meant by godliness and truth. The great, essential questions which God would have presented to the people are found in Daniel and the Revelation. There is found solid, eternal truth for this time. Everyone needs the light and information it contains. {1MR 61.2}
Posted By: Linda Sutton

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 08:23 PM

These paragraphs are from Testimonies to Ministers, the chapter entitled “The Study of the Books of Daniel and the Revelation.”
quote:
God's Spirit has illuminated every page of Holy Writ, but there are those upon whom it makes little impression, because it is imperfectly understood. When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness. . . . Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. Let there be light, yes, light, in your dwellings. For this we need to pray. The Holy Spirit, shining upon the sacred page, will open our understanding, that we may know what is truth. . . . {TM 112.1}

There is need of a much closer study of the word of God; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the papacy; but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has so shaped matters, both in the giving of the prophecy and in the events portrayed, as to teach that the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and that the Lord God of heaven and His law are to be exalted. Read the book of Daniel. Call up, point by point, the history of the kingdoms there represented. Behold statesmen, councils, powerful armies, and see how God wrought to abase the pride of men, and lay human glory in the dust. . . . {TM 112.2}

The light that Daniel received from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon come to pass. {TM 112.3}

Consider the circumstances of the Jewish nation when the prophecies of Daniel were given. {TM 113.1}

Let us give more time to the study of the Bible. We do not understand the word as we should. The book of Revelation opens with an injunction to us to understand the instruction that it contains. "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy," God declares, "and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." When we as a people understand what this book means to us, there will be seen among us a great revival. We do not understand fully the lessons that it teaches, notwithstanding the injunction given us to search and study it. {TM 113.2}

In the past teachers have declared Daniel and the Revelation to be sealed books, and the people have turned from them. The veil whose apparent mystery has kept many from lifting it, God's own hand has withdrawn from these portions of His word. The very name "Revelation" contradicts the statement that it is a sealed book. "Revelation" means that something of importance is revealed. The truths of this book are addressed to those living in these last days. We are standing with the veil removed in the holy place of sacred things. We are not to stand without. We are to enter, not with careless, irreverent thoughts, not with impetuous footsteps, but with reverence and godly fear. We are nearing the time when the prophecies of the book of Revelation are to be fulfilled. . . . {TM 113.3}

We have the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the spirit of prophecy. Priceless gems are to be found in the word of God . Those who search this word should keep the mind clear. Never should they indulge perverted appetite in eating or drinking. {TM 114.1}

If they do this, the brain will be confused; they will be unable to bear the strain of digging deep to find out the meaning of those things which relate to the closing scenes of this earth's history. {TM 114.2}

When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart. {TM 114.3}

The Lord will bless all who will seek humbly and meekly to understand that which is revealed in the Revelation. This book contains so much that is large with immortality and full of glory that all who read and search it earnestly receive the blessing to those "that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein." {TM 114.4}
. . . .

Will our brethren bear in mind that we are living amid the perils of the last days? Read Revelation in connection with Daniel. Teach these things. {TM 115.4}

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 04/30/03 09:14 PM

Linda,

The bulk of those quotes you provided are telling us that revival will come through the study of the books of Daniel and Revelation. It also sounds like the book Daniel & Revelation by Uriah Smith would be a good companion book.

That being the case, I am either contemplating the creation of a public forum just for that purpose or a topic for that purpose. I am not certain which would be the better way to go.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/02/03 06:04 AM

Be that as it may - none of the SOP quotes Linda shared even remotely suggest that the war in Iraq is/was a fulfillment of some specific prophecy.
Posted By: Greg Goodchild

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/01/03 09:46 PM

I have just finished reading all the posts and it seems that there are several ideas present.

First that we are in the last days. I think that is true.

Second, the war in Iraq is the USA exercising her role as a super power in dealing with a tyrant. I think that is true is well.

Third that the USA is exercising her power as a preamble to her speaking as a dragon. I think there is light in that as well. For we have been told that the USA is the two horned beast that somewhere and sometime will switch from being benevolent to that of a dragon. Whether the Iraq war is the switching point time will tell.

Fourth that studying Daniel and Revelation are key issues in preparing for the second coming and all of the events leading up to it. I think that is true as well.

Fifth that we need to study for ourselves to be prepared for the last events. Also true.

Sixth that there are various camps of interpretaton of prophecy even inside of the SDA church. Also true. We have the three classical schools, preterist, futurist, and historicist. The SDA church has traditionally taken the historicist school of thought but sad to see the other schools are bleeding into our school of thought, perhaps this is the beginning of the flooding of error spoken of in Revelation 12:15. It would be good for us to restudy our thoughts on these subject matters. My personal bias is toward the school of historical thought of Louis Were as the best reasoned most thoroughly grounded Scriptural and SOP position that SDAs have been able to develop so far.

Seventh that the last movements will be rapid, world wide, religious in nature, and the USA and the Papacy will be the central negative players. This is true as well.

Thank you for the study. I hope to learn more as we share.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/02/03 07:16 AM

Greg: I appreciated your summary; that was helpful.

Mike, I wanted to say that I agree with what you have said re the USA “speaking like a dragon.” I suppose that almost any country would speak like a dragon, when they go to war; however, prophecy does pinpoint a specific point in time, when the USA will do so; but rather than being tied to a specific event, like a war; this time of trouble seems more connected with certain deceptions.

We have been studying the conflict of Iraq, and how it relates to prophecy. It has been stated above, in reply to what I have said about Mathew 24 that:

a) “God’s instructions to us are clear, and were repeated many times. A sampling of these instructions are here quoted. I searched to see how many time we were instructed to study Mathew 24. I can’t find even one. We are instructed to study chapters 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 18, 25, and 28, but no 24.”

b) “Delusions are rampant in these last days, ; but it is no delusion or deception to study the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. What message can we give, that is more important to this world, than those of Rev.14?”

So, is it "delusion" to study Mathew 24?

The intentions of my post this time, will be to reply to these two items, in specific reference to the ORIGINAL TOPIC of this thread. It has been stated that this conflict in Iraq, will herald in some very specific, international events; and I have replied that because of things told to us in Mat. 24, that we do not have any credible way of tying in such specifics, to some hand-picked ,commonly used Spirit Of Prophecy quotes, regarding “the last days.”

Several points I would like to make:

1) I have not intended to polarize Mathew 24 against the books of Daniel and Revelation, as has been done here in this thread. Daniel and Revelation are not “more important” than Mathew 24.. To even hint at such a thing; would not be true to the Words of Christ Himself. It is unfair to the high calibre of Ellen White’s writings, to intimate that she does not tell us to study Mathew 24.; in relation to the “endtime message,” that we, as a people, have been given to share with the world.

2) In a) above, we read the following: “I searched to see how many times we are instructed to study Mathew 24. I can’t find even one.” The writer of this only leaves us guessing what that statement means, so the door is open to all manner of “interpretations” on that point. This is unfortunate indeed. Mathew 24 is an essential part of the last message of mercy, and warning….(so are parts of Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah)…

a) Consider that Jesus Himself draws for us an intimate connection between Mat.24, and, the book of Daniel. In Mat.24:15, He tells us that when we see certain things happening around us, to make sure that we understand the book of Daniel. If Jesus uses Mathew 24 to point people to the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation; then why would we not want to? As I stated above in another post, Mat. 24 gives us light on how to avoid the deception of tying in specific events, to specific prophecies, and then basing our personal “predictions” of how history will occur, as a result of that one, specific event.

b) it remains to be answered, just how the conflict of Iraq is a specific fulfilment of prophecy; except in a general sort of way, relating to what Jesus called “tribulations.” But to be Biblical; it must be noted, without minimizing it; that Jesus says clearly in Mat. 24 how these specific wars & rumors of wars” were not always “signs” of the end; and that they mainly marked “the beginning of sorrows.” The over-all intent of Mathew 24, as I have alluded to earlier, seems more focused on the fact that there will be certain deceptions, rather than specific wars, that we need to consider as being genuine signs of the end.

c) No one in this thread has disputed the fact that it is important to study the books of Daniel and Revelation. There are many places in the Bible that tell us to focus on these two books. Mathew 24 is one of the more important ones; because Jesus Himself makes the connection there, to these two books of prophecy. (24:15).

For a brief glimpse of what the Spirit Of Prophecy says on Mathew 24, consider the following. I would hate to give people the idea, in any way that Mathew 24 was not as important, or was not a part of the endtime message:

GC.025.004
“Jesus declared to the listening disciples the judgments that were to fall upon apostate Israel, and especially the retributive vengeance that would come upon them for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah. Unmistakable signs would precede the awful climax. The dreaded hour would come suddenly and swiftly. And the Saviour warned His followers: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains." Matthew 24:15, 16; Luke 21:20, 21.

When the idolatrous standards of the Romans should be set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls, then the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight. When the warning sign should be seen, those who would escape must make no delay. Throughout the land of Judea, as well as in Jerusalem itself, the signal for flight must be immediately obeyed. “

Neither Ellen G White, nor the Bible support the ideas initially brought forth here, regarding the conflict in Iraq; and it certainly appears that Ellen White did indeed draw people’s attention to Mat.24, in much of her writings about the books of Daniel & Revelation.

Linda, perhaps it would be helpful if you could explain more your comments re “I could not find any[SOP] that told us to study Mathew 24?” Perhaps I am not reading that comment right?

But, in any case, none of the Bible or other writings here, says: “When ye see the conflict in Iraq; “ but some of them do say: “When ye therefore see the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel..” Do we see this “abomination NOW with the Iraq conflict? When will we see this “abomination?” Is it not true, that this “abomination” is referring to a specific state of deception in the world?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 06:50 AM

Greg, thanx for the succinct summary. And David, I agree with your observations and look forward to exploring the issues you raised. Indeed, Mat 24 is as relevant now as it was in days of the early church. "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." GC 36.2

The "abomination of desolation" Jesus referred to seems to imply the one mentioned in Daniel 11:31 (rather than the one in 12:11), which deals specifically with the Roman occupation and final destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Daniel
11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Matthew
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

But when Matthew 24 is fulfilled again in the last days what will constitute the “abomination of desolation” then? Daniel 8:11-14 seems to indicate a two phase fulfillment: 1) During pagan Rome, and 2) During Papal Rome. If the “daily” involves the sanctuary, then Pagan Rome took it away when she destroyed the earthly temple. And Papal Rome took it away when she began counterfeiting Jesus’ daily ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. But it ceased being a counterfeit in 1844 when Jesus discontinued the daily ministry in the holy place and began the annual ministry in the most holy place.

Concerning the prophecy in Daniel 12:11 it appears that between taking away the daily and setting up the desolating abomination there are 1290 years. I believe the 1290 years was fulfilled between 508 AD and 1798 AD, the dates Papal Rome ruled in Europe. But what was the desolating abomination in 1798? Was it the roots of communism? which were developing during the French Revolution? But I'm not sure I see a connection between Iraq and the desolating abomination.

Daniel
8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 06:58 AM

Daryl and Zyph, did you happen to watch the President's speech yesterday on the destroyer ship Abraham Lincoln? It didn't sound like the voice of a dragon to me. No hint of enforcing a national or international Sunday Law. And did you notice he praised the UK (the mother of Canada) and Australia for their participation in the war?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 04:56 AM

Hi folks. I understood from her post that Linda was making an observation. I was happy to learn more about what sources Sister White emphasized. Of course Matthew 24 is important too.

I think the idea of a prophecy forum is good.

Isn't it Pippenger that draws a lot from this former SDA pastor/writer Greg?
Posted By: Greg Goodchild

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 09:12 AM

I have never met Mr. Pippenger before. I have ended up at his website because he has a couple of Louis Weres books on his site. I like Louis Were but I have not read much of Mr. Pippengers materials so I would hesitate on commenting on him due to my ignorance of his thoughts and materials. I will probably get acquainted with him soon. Any one who likes Louis Were can't be all bad. I did find an interesting book on that site and it was Louis Weres analysis of EGW and Uriah Smith and Smiths teachings on turkey as the king of the north. I have not read it yet but I suspect it will be pretty good. The address is as follows:
http://64.4.10.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=17d13904c611be485b1cd2173eef2a78&lat=1051940760&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2etemcat%2ecom%2fnewview%2ehtm

Just as a final note. I think that Daniel, Revelation, Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2, are all linked together. So happy studying.
Posted By: Greg Goodchild

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 09:17 AM

A better address to that book is a follows:
http://www.temcat.com/EGW-and%20-U-Smith.htm
Posted By: zyph

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 12:51 PM

Mike, Satan himself appears as an angel of light. I don't want anyone thanking my country for killing the citizens of another country, and I believe this war was based on lies. I haven't seen it, but "Bowling for Columbine" is reliable regarding America's involvement in the international overthrow of regimes.

The war is only a symptom. Have you seen the laws in your country that were changed while the red herring was happening? Do you know you can be held without legal representation if someone says you are a threat to your country's security, and without proof? Most Americans have accepted a war against no-one - after all just who is "Terrorism"?? - and anything the government says is necessary, without questioning it. I suspect you're reacting in a patriotic way. Patriotism causes men to kill each other. I don't believe we should be patriotic the way the world promotes it, as all countries are made up of God's children, and all leaders are Divinely appointed. (I still haven't heard a clear answer on whether it is possible to have a wrong leader, not the one God wants.) Abuse of so-called Democracy has resulted in the suffering of humanity in exactly the same way as any form of earthly government. There are benign dictatorships, and evil democratically elected leaders. Saddam Hussein gave on-going food to support his people. I wonder if you have seen any of this on American television. He wasn't all bad. I wanted to comment on something you mentioned about America not getting involved in WW2 because she wasn't a super power. Well, she did have the atom bomb. She did watch other countries hurt for years, not months, and responded only after she was attacked. Terrorism has been hurting people world wide for years. Ireland is a classic example. America reacts only when it comes to her door.

I believe the USA was a country that promoted peace - but that is a long time ago. She looks the same, but don't cross her.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 02:25 PM

A valid point Zyph that we all need to step back and candidly evaluate what actuates a nation to make war. When there is moral declension on an unprecedented scale in Christendom, we can expect that the motives of any western country are not completely ultraistic. Canada for example has a long history of peace keeping, but it helped the US silently. Why?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/04/03 06:26 AM

Zyph wrote - "I still haven't heard a clear answer on whether it is possible to have a wrong leader, not the one God wants."

Perhaps rereading the history of King Saul, David and Solomon can provide answers. God appointed them to rule over Israel, and yet who can forget the base things they did? not to mention the good things they did! And let's not forget that God is currently tolerating Satan's regime.

If you're willing to defend Saddam's regime on account of the humanitarian aid he provided his countrymen then are you also ready to say the same thing in defense of Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Amin? Even Satan himself is willing to bless certain people if it furthers his evil plans.

If you are willing to believe that the USA is speaking like a dragon because she selectively goes after tyrants who have supported terrorist attacks against her people - then so be it. I doubt anybody can persuade you otherwise. But rest assured that if a cruel dictator should someday threaten the freedom of Australians the USA will fight to restore your freedom.

Yes, a day is coming when the USA will enforce a national and international Sunday Law. Which is when she speaks like a dragon. Regarding the laws you mentioned that allows the US government to hold, until found innocent, someone suspected of terrorist intentions or involvement are necessary considering the secret and nocturnal tactics they employ. The old system of waiting until they kill hundreds of innocent children before taking them into custody went out on September 11 - which was not soon enough for my tastes.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/03/03 07:20 PM

Hi Daryl [Thank You]

I am speaking in reference to your high recommendation of the Uriah Smith book, Daniel And The Revelation, in this post. I have long had questions about the real quality of this book. I have come to believe that it is not a good source of really reliable inspiration.

With a little research; it is easy to see why this should not be one of our “recommended books.” While Ellen White did at some points write commendably of the work that Smith was doing, we must be careful to note that she never once said that his book was inspired. And for good reason.

For one quick eg. : Uriah Smith's teachings about Armageddon (the military, Palestinian interpretation), the final conflict, were VERY DIFFERENT from the clear teachings in the Spirit of Prophecy that "the Sabbath question [the "Sign" of righteousness] is to be the issue [not Turkey, etc.] in the great final conflict in which all the world will act a part" Rev.3:10 says it like this:

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is precisely the error we as a people fall into today, when we try to take an individual war, such as the Iraqi conflict, and make it into a “sign,” and force fit it into our personal interpretations of history, and prophecy.

Ellen White teaches, in opposition to elder Smith that it is deception which will constitute the final battle:

“The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great, final conflict, in which all the world will act a part.” (6T. 352).

In The Review And Herald, May 13, 1902; and in G.C. pp. 562, 582, 623, 656, 640; 6T. 410; TM. 465, etc., the Lord's servant quotes or refers to Rev. 16: 14.-16 and makes it definitely clear that "the final conflict" will be between the forces of good and evil over loyalty to the Commandments of God. The Bible, as I have already mentioned, backs this up very well.

Those who have learned from experience the teaching of righteousness by faith- how to obtain power from our Lord Jesus, the power-imparting King-priest-will be attacked by those who have not been freed from the tyranny of the prince of darkness. 1Co 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

It is this conflict, this battle for the mind, and for truth, which all last-day prophecies depict; and not a military conflict associated with the ending of Turkey or nations adjacent to the Euphrates; nor with the current Iraqi conflict turning out some certain way.

We need to be careful not to adopt the types of errors of uninspired books like Daniel & The Revelation. Although there are matters of truth, well said therein; there are some blatant errors. But truth has to be mixed with error, in order for error to have it's effect. Thankfully, the Lord’s servant, did not always see it necessary to trumpet the errors of our pioneers, so she has limited her public responses to Uriah Smith’s erroneous teachings.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/04/03 12:12 AM

Mike, you're making me uncomfortable. [Smile] We are only trying to say that the USA will not become a tyrant overnight. National decline can be quick but not immediate. It is progressive, and we need to realize that there are signs that is is occuring throughout Christendom. Failure to recognize this could cause us to eventually support the most oppressive regimes out of a misguided patriotism which is what happened in Nazi Germany to most Seventh-day Adventists. Hitler didn't pass any Sunday laws that I am aware of. But German Seventh-day Adventists for the most part blindly followed him and it seems to me that many lost their souls in the process.

We need to give credit where credit is due, but let's not be blind to the fact that America's and the west's motives are not fully ultruistic.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/04/03 12:46 AM

Mark, sorry for making you uncomfortable. Can you tell I am an American? Ha! You're right though, in spite of the many good reasons Saddam needed to be deposed, the USA is not altogether altruistic in her motives. But it is still far from speaking like a dragon. Yes, the road to perdition is long, and at times imperceptible, but the USA will eventually speak like a dragon - that is, she will enforce Sunday Laws. Until then I, as an American (not to mention an American veteran as well), cannot entertain ideas that suggest she is anything other than the lamb described in prophecy.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/04/03 02:28 PM

My position on the war in Iraq is this... (I wont give SOP references here because I already did on that other thread)

1. The Spirit of Prophecy says clearly that at times, God wanted His people to go to war. So although this doesnt automatically mean that He wants the USA to go to war, it does mean that we should not jump to the conclusion that every war is wrong or "of the Devil". It means we should keep our minds open to the fact that some wars may actually be "Just".

2. The Spirit of Prophecy says we shouldnt get into politics because we really never know what the true motives or position is, of those in power. So really, none of us knows the full and complete reasons this war was waged.

I have read lots of materials by Texe Marrs. Texe tends to promote the idea that every single thing the Government does is because of the "Illuminati". It is like "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". It is like the Time Setting problem. If we begin to attribute every single thing the US Government does as being sinister and "something to start the Sunday Laws" ... pretty soon, people will not listen to us anymore. We should try to think the best, until and unless we have compelling evidence on something, telling us otherwise.

3. We are told in the Spirit of Prophecy that we should be very careful in our church papers -not to attack the government because it will be assumed later that the entire body of believers feels this way about the Government and will be used against us later.

...and just personally, I think that if nothing is done about this terrorism problem, it will grow worse and worse. It must be stopped. It was actually the British Tony Blair who was always warning about Saddam Hussein. It isnt that the "evil USA Government" just dreamed this up in order to be able to do something sinister. It's the President's job to protect the citizens of the USA and that is what he is doing. And not just for the USA but for the world. Unless someone shows me some really compelling evidence otherwise, that is what I will continue to believe.

I think it is a bad idea to become a bunch of little "Texe Marrs" running around saying "the sky is falling" "the sky is falling" ... every time something happens, or every time there is a war... because if so, when the sky really IS falling... nobody will believe us.... just like Time Setting. We don't have to become Sensationalists. Doing that will cause us to lose our credibility.

By the way, you should watch the documentary about 8:00 or so tonight on the "History Channel" about the torurous regime of Saddam Hussein.

In the Spirit of Prophecy we are told that there have been times when things were about to become very "hot" and the Sunday laws were going to become a reality but that God allowed various things to intercept... so that men would have more time to repent. How do we know that some of these wars might not be curtailing the start of the Sunday Laws rather than the other way around? How do we know who is really behind these terrorists acts at the very top? We already know about the concept of "Order out of Chaos" -where anarchy is purposely started for politcal reasons. And how do we know if that perhaps President Bush waging war against Iraq isnt actually curbing the start of the Sunday Laws? The point is... we DONT KNOW.


...and as a side note, the Pope is against the war on Iraq.. and so was the evil one world order United Nations of course... http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/iraq/20030114_522.html

whats with that former Iraqi deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz being a Catholic anyway? [Smile]


----------


I forgot to add this part... The thing about our relationship to the Government ... I view it as the same way Ellen White said we should have treated the Temperance Club back in her day. Just because they didnt have light upon all that we did... this didnt mean that they therefore had no redeeming qualities at all. We shouldve united with them in whatever way we could, without sacrificing principle... in order that people dont view us as a set of fanatics:

Temperance, page 217, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
A Sensible Attitude Toward Other Organizations. --The temperance question is to be respected by every true Christian, and especially should it receive the sanction of all who profess to be reformers. But there will be those in the church that will not show wisdom in the treatment of this subject. Some will show marked disrespect to any reforms arising from any other people besides those of their own faith; in this they err by being too exclusive.

Temperance, page 222, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
2. Co-operating With the W.C.T.U.
An Organization With Which We Can Unite. -- The Woman's Christian Temperance Union is an organization with whose efforts for the spread of temperance principles we can heartily unite. The light has been given me that we are not to stand aloof from them, but, while there is to be no sacrifice of principle on our part, as far as possible we are to unite with them in laboring for temperance reforms. . . . We are to work with them when we can, and we can assuredly do this on the question of utterly closing the saloon.

Temperance, page 222, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
As the human agent submits his will to the will of God, the Holy Spirit will make the impression upon the hearts of those to whom he ministers. I have been shown that we are not to shun the W.C.T.U. workers. By uniting with them in behalf of total abstinence, we do not change our position regarding the observance of the seventh day, and we can show our appreciation of their position regarding the subject of temperance. By opening the door, and inviting them to unite with us on the temperance question, we secure their help along temperance lines; and they, by uniting with us, will hear new truths which the Holy Spirit is waiting to impress upon hearts.-- Review and Herald, June 18, 1908.

Temperance, page 225, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
Christ's one purpose when upon this earth was to reflect the light of His righteousness to those in darkness. The W.C.T.U. workers have not the whole truth on all points, but they are doing a good work.--Manuscript 31, 1911.

[ May 04, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Claudia Thompson ]
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/05/03 06:10 AM

Claudia, I totally agree with your comments here. But mostly I appreciated the rational way you presented them. Very winsome. Thank you.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/10/03 08:56 AM

"I do not know what called out these remarks, only the thought that many will look away from present duties, present comfort and blessings, and be borrowing trouble in regard to the future crisis. This will be making a time of trouble beforehand, and we will receive no grace for any such anticipated troubles. Rejoice in God always. To-day praise God for his grace, and continue to praise him every day; and then when the scenes of sore conflicts come, having learned the lesson of holy confidence, of blessed trust, we place our hands in the hands of Christ, our feet on the rock, and we are secure from storm and tempest." RH.1884-03-25.005

How might this apply to what we tell the world regarding the Iraq conflict, and it’s "connection to fulfilled prophecy?"
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 05/13/03 06:46 AM

I touched the iraq war and its place in prophecy at the following link if anyone is interested. This was presented on March 22, 2003 in the midst of the event.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/documents/sermons/sermons-kir/kir-iraq.php3

LK
Posted By: Markell Moss

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 07/13/03 04:37 AM

I know I don't post here all that often - it seems much of the discussion is book quoting which is often too detailed and goes over my head. [Frown] Never fear, the Bible still comes first. [Smile]

That said, I think there may be too much emphasis on the "Sunday Law". Not that I would ever condone it, being a Sabbath-keeper, but that in keeping our eyes peeled for a Sunday law, we might miss some *other* very important events.

I'm not going to dwell on whether or not the recent war was good or bad, but there are some events that have cropped up from it...

- Tightened internal security and policies for the general public.
I had someone come into the store I work at hoping to get the metal tip point of a pencil-compass because airport security confiscated it as "a dangerous weapon". While this security will help quell some of the world's evil, it will also serve very effectively a government's unintentionally-evil intent - with more and more security in place, the people are more easily "policed" which means when the remnant becomes a target for their policing. Other examples can be the thumb-printing required for a drivers' lisence in Texas, or the "Smart" all-in-one cards becoming more popular in Europe and being strongly considered by North America.

- Intolerance and Tolerance

A Confusing statement... there's a world "intolerance" being driven into us that "Terrorists are the enemy" and rightly so... but this "us vs. them" and "we hate the enemy" mentailty is really starting to show, and what will happen when "those pesky Bible-thumpers" become the Enemy #1 (and in places like N. Korea and others, Christians of all kinds are being persecuted HEAVILY - even to the death.) It is a means to an end.

And what did I mean by "tolerance"? Well, notice how many gay weddings have been happening in the media lately? Religious acceptance is another big topic these days. Blend, mix... anything to try and live together peacefully. End the anger by accepting what was considered "wrong" as "hey, we're different but it's OK!" Funny that Christianity is the only religion *really* under attack in the world today. Even Satanists (oops.. surely Wiccans and other Witchcraft/Magick/etc. aren't Evil... after all, Harry Potter's a nice guy...) are living the easy life these days. Harry Potter has really made witchraft popular and it's all okay because kids are reading for the first time since TV took over.


I guess if there's one point I'd like people to get out of this lengthy post is that of "birth pains". A local pastor said it best;

Birthing pains are a sign of what? An impending birth! How do you know the birth is getting closer? The FREQUENCY and INTENSITY of the birth pains become higher!

So as more and more fighting breaks out over the earth, crime becomes more violent, national issues become more urgent, more diseases appear out of nowhere, more disasters occur - natural or man-made.... by the time of the end, the Birthing Pains will be extremely intense and VERY frequent and we should be prepared for that early.

I have to wonder.... when God tells His remnant people to flee... where on earth will we go??? Good thing he'll be watching over us no matter what!
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 07/13/03 10:42 PM

Good post, Markell! [Thank You]

One event has a domino effect to another event.

The 911 event led to the Afganistan event and then to the Iraq event. What happens yet still remains to be seen.

And yes, 911, was a major event that affected our personal privacy as seen in the increased security at our airports, which in some cases as you already mentioned in your post is rather extreme, but tells us that the road is being paved for the so-called easier appearance of new enemies.

And frequency is the watchword, therefore, let us not be caught off guard.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 07/16/03 11:17 AM

People have long fabricated "prophetic warnings" from many different wars, in many different eras of time.

Surely there is inspired counsel to tell us when we are crossing over the line to bringing a day of trouble before it has actually arrived?
Posted By: Steve Claborn

Re: Target: Iraqi Freedom — Is the War A Fulfillment of Prophecy? - 09/12/03 06:31 AM

I am a bit late to this discussion through no fault of my own (just joined yesterday) and I have a couple of points for your consideration.

First, when has the U.S. ever been "lamblike?" It came to power by genocide of Native Americans, and the enslavement of Africans. In it's short history (in comparison to other nations) the U.S. has a very violent, exploitive existence......

Secondly, the second war in Iraq was necessary for what? Mr. Hussein did not assist in the 9/11 attacks, in fact Bin Laden is still walking around freely. The U.S,. decided arrogantly (in my opinion) to overthrow Mr. Hussein for the sake of self-interest. There are other dictators in the world who are still in power and the U.S. is completely ignoring them....

So from where I sit here in Alabama, this war is not a fulfilment of prophecy.....
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