What must I do to be saved?
Posted By: Will
What must I do to be saved? - 06/21/04 08:18 AM
Hello,
This has got to be one of the most important questions that has been asked since Biblical times and with all good reason.
This question was asked by a jailer in the book of Acts Ch. 16:32, and the response by the Apostles was:
quote:
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
How is it that something so easy has become so complicated? The Pharisees also made it complicated with rituals and ceremonies, and lots of extra laws.
2000 some odd years later with over 1,000 different Christian denominations the way to Salvation has a variety of 'tests' to determine if someone is ready i.e. baptism of the Holy Spirit, Communion, perfectionism, etc etc..
What was the sequence of events that led the jailer to be saved and his household?
quote:
Acts 16:32-34
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
The jailer had a repentant heart and was humble as well (The Holy Spirit must have been working on him since no man can change anyone) and the whole house rejoiced as they ate and believed.
How do we teach others about Jesus Christ, so they may be baptized when they ask in their hearts 'What must I do to be saved'? Is it by sharing the Word, witnessing to them in word and deed? Has anyone baptized anyone in the same day\hour after sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with them and they (convert) believed? Or do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?
Any thoughts on this?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 06/27/04 06:36 AM
While reading Chapter 32 of The Great Controversy titled
Snares of Satan the following words from Sister White struck a chord of familiarity:
quote:
When there is no special effort made to resist his power, when indifference prevails in the church and the world, Satan is not concerned; for he is in no danger of losing those whom he is leading captive at his will. But when the attention is called to eternal things, and souls are inquiring, "What must I do to be saved?" he is on the ground, seeking to match his power against the power of Christ, and to counteract the influence of the Holy Spirit. {GC88 518.2}
We don't have to answer this in this thread (although it would be nice), but it is a question with a very important result it will either be etaernal life or lost forever.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 06/29/04 06:18 AM
Will, I agree with you. Answering this question is more important than anything else we can study. You are, no doubt, familiar with the answer I have embraced.
In Christ we must:
1. Repent (Acts 3:19).
2. Crucify our old man habits and traits of character (Rom 6:1-23).
3. Be born again (John 3:1-8).
4. Walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man (Gal 5:16 and Eph 4:24).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/03/04 08:09 PM
It would be nice to take some time to thoroughly study this topic. I realize most MSDAOL members are sick and tired of my views on sin, rebirth, moral perfection, righteousness and salvation, but please don't let that prevent the rest of you from digging deeper into the most important doctrine in all the Bible.
Are we following the counsel of God?
TDG 93
Brethren, we must sink the shaft deep in the mine of truth. You may question matters with yourselves and with one another, if you only do it in the right spirit; but too often self is large, and as soon as investigation begins, an unchristian spirit is manifested. This is just what Satan delights in, but we should come with a humble heart to know for ourselves what is truth. The time is coming when we shall be separated and scattered, and each one of us will have to stand without the privilege of communion with those of like precious faith; and how can you stand unless God is by your side, and you know that He is leading and guiding you? Whenever we come to investigate Bible truth, the Master of assemblies is with us. The Lord does not leave the ship one moment to be steered by ignorant pilots. We may receive our orders from the Captain of our salvation. . . . {TDG 93.1}
If a brother is teaching error, those who are in responsible positions ought to know it; and if he is teaching truth, they ought to take their stand at his side. We should all know what is being taught among us, for if it is truth, we need to know it. The Sabbath school teacher needs to know it, and every Sabbath school scholar ought to understand it. We are all under obligation to God to know what He sends to us. He has given directions by which we may test every doctrine--"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20). But if it is according to this test, do not be so full of prejudice that you cannot acknowledge a point when it is proved to you, simply because it does not agree with your ideas. {TDG 93.2}
Do not catch at every objection, however small, and make it as large as possible, and preserve it for future use. No one has said that we shall find perfection in any man's investigations, but this I do know, that our churches are dying for the want of teaching on the subject of righteousness by faith in Christ, and for kindred truths. {TDG 93.3}
No matter by whom light is sent, we should open our hearts to receive it in the meekness of Christ.--Review and Herald, March 25, 1890. {TDG 93.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/03/04 08:20 PM
LDE 200, 201
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."--1SM 372 (1890). {LDE 199.4}
The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}
Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2}
The message of Christ's righteousness is to sound from one end of the earth to the other to prepare the way of the Lord. This is the glory of God, which closes the work of the third angel.--6T 19 (1900). {LDE 200.3}
The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them.--COL 415, 416 (1900). {LDE 200.4}
According Webster's "verity" means:
1 : the quality or state of being true or real
2 : something (as a statement) that is true; especially : a fundamental and inevitably true value (such eternal verities as honor, love, and patriotism)
3 : the quality or state of being truthful or honest (the king-becoming graces, as justice, verity -- Shakespeare)
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=verity
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 01:11 AM
Well, the answer in Acts 16:21 was obviously believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!!!!
The obvious result of their believing on the Lord Jesus Christ was that they were saved.
Water baptism followed the fact that they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and they were saved.
I also believe that it was at this point of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, that they were born again. The result of this born again salvation relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ was water baptism.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 02:40 AM
Jesus defines believing on the Him as behaving like Him. Are we born again behaving like Jesus?
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 03:18 AM
If that is the case, then, using your definition, the jailer and his family, who obviously believed on Him, would also have behaved like Him, however, I question your definition as I don't see how they would have so quickly behaved like Him.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 08:38 AM
I cannot take the credit for Jesus' definition of what it means to believe on Him. Is there a Bible text to support your position? Where in the Bible does it teach the jailer was born again unlike Christ? Jesus contrasted new born believers before and after rebirth in the following passage:
John
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And Paul wrote:
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Regarding new born babes Peter wrote:
1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
Concerning evil speaking James wrote:
James
3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
Was the jailer born again in the flesh or in the spirit? As a newborn babe did he retain or lay aside the sins listed above? In what way was he unlike Jesus?
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 11:30 AM
Mike,
The jailer was born again.. No dynamics on being completely immaculate. He and his family heard the Word of God, they believed, and were baptized that same hour. It does not state that he was not born again like Jesus and that he was born again like Jesus. He was born again and him and his whole family are saved.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 08:10 PM
Will, what do you mean by "completely immaculate"?
Peter wrote that newborn babes in Christ have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings." And James says anyone who has mastered the tongue is "a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."
In what way are newborn babes unlike Jesus the moment they are born again?
Where in the Bible does God say newborn babes in Christ are born again with their former sins in tact?
In what way are born again believers different before and after they experience the miracle of rebirth?
Are we "created" anew in Christ when we're born again? Or, do we "evolve" from greater sins to lesser sins after we're born again?
Do born again believers mature in "righteousness and true holiness" from "faith to faith" and from "glory to glory" after they are born again? Or, do they gradually outgrow and overcome their moral imperfections over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting?
These are fair, albeit familiar, questions. Is anyone willing to address these questions and provide Bible answers?
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 09:03 PM
Hi Mike,
When you are born again you are born again in Jesus Christ. When a person falls due to a weakness of theirs after they are born again (it does happen) they are not turned away from Jesus Christ but can ask for forgiveness since it is the goodness of God that leads all men to repentance. From what I have seen the pererctionism doctrine is almost if not a form of salvation by works since I have seen absolutely no information provided of repenting of a sin after you have been born again, but instead it falls on the premise of what a "converted" believer should not do and what constitutes a born again believer. Based on the information you have added basically no one who has sinned after they are born again is truly born again, and the verses provided in the Bible clearly state that if we say we have not sinned we make Jesus a liar (1 John 1:9), if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 John 1:8). There are many examples of people who sinned after they were converted such as Peter denying Christ, King David lusting, aommiting adultery and murder, the thief on the Cross who was being crucified for his own crime believed in Jesus Christ without baptism, nor a 6 week Bible class, but was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
To say otherwise with no way out basically condemns everyone of not being truly converted. That is what I have seen. Besides that the point of the topic is not perfectionism, but it is on the question of 'What must I do to be saved'. The more complicated it gets, and the more hoops we have to jump through to answer questions that lead us away from Christ only adds more firepower to the basic simple fact that a person needs to believe in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest. There is not 1 human who can make a person perfect, but it is when God leads that person in Truth that they will be shown the error of their ways and repent and continue to grow in Jesus Christ..
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 09:54 PM
Will, I agree with the idea we are saved on the basis of what Jesus did for us and not what He does in and through us. I'm sorry if anything I've posted implied otherwise.
Also, I think you will agree that I've never posted anything to the effect that born again believers are incapable of resurrecting the mind of the old man and committing a known sin. Nor have I ever insinuated post-conversion sinning indicates the believer was never truly born again in the first place.
Sister White teaches clearly that God can justify no one who has not confessed and forsaken their sins. She says, "God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place...." How many known sins, if any, does this insight exclude?
FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
Is anybody willing to answer the questions I've posted in the last few posts?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 10:05 PM
At the moment the jailer and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they were saved, they were born again, and they were then baptized. I don't believe you can separate being saved from being born again.
What happened to them after that wasn't revealed to us in the Bible, therefore, we can't comment any further on that except to say that, if they endure to the end, they will be saved.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 10:12 PM
Will, are you implying that 1 John 1:6-10 insinuates we are born again with our former sins in tact?
SL 68, 69
The epistles of John breathe a spirit of love. But when he comes in contact with that class who break the law of God and yet claim that they are living without sin, he does not hesitate to warn them of their fearful deception. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:6-10).
MAR 224
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/04/04 10:20 PM
Daryl, in light of what the rest of the Bible tells us about born again newborn babes in Christ it would not be stretching the truth to infer the jailer and his family met the conditions of rebirth and salvation as defined by God Himself in the Bible.
What do you make of Sister White's insights in FW 100?
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 12:51 AM
Mike,
1 John 1:6-10 clearly states in the present tense if someone walk in darkness, and also states that by walking in thwe Light we have fellowship with Christ, and it also clearly states that if we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and make Jesus a liar, and it also clearly states that if you do messs up which is going to happen at least 1 X in your post converted life that guess what.. We can come to Christ and He will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness notice it didnt say error, or if you ate some pizza, or drank coffee or got wasted.. it clearly says He will forgive us our sins meaning current post-converted sin that was done. I don't feel comfortable adding to Scripture or implying or insinuating anything. The Bible will interpret itself and anything that contradicts what is clearly stated in Scripture is clearly a contradiction. DOes the Bible teach that no one has fsinned after they have been converted.. Nope, does it teach that we are to obey God yes, does the Bible teach if we do sin we can be cleanbsed of sin yes it does.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 02:24 AM
Will wrote:
quote:
Does the Bible teach that no one has sinned after they have been converted...
Will, where in the Bible does God say they will sin after they have been converted, born again?
Will, assuming that 1 John 1:6-10 clearly teaches born again believers, who are abiding in Christ, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, continue to sin and repent [which it doesn't] - then how do we reconcile the following insights:
1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 02:26 AM
Would someone please take the time to address the questions I've posted on this page. Thank you.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 03:18 AM
Mike,
Again it amazes me at how you attempt to go ahead and change the topic to suit your own purposes. I have been addressing your posts, but apaprently it may not be up to your level of satisfaction, and you posted a verse:
quote:
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
So how do you say that no one sins yet we see clearly in verse 1 of 1 John chapter 2 that if[b/] any man sin? an [b]if actually suggests that ia may happen and if it does then you can ask for forgiveness.. Can you elaborate on what exactly you are trying to say clearly without complicating what is clearly stated in Scripture after you address my questions I posted initially:
1. Have you ever baptized anyone within the same hour after giving them the Gospel?
2. How do we teach others about Jesus Christ, so they may be baptized when they ask in their hearts 'What must I do to be saved'?
3. Do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?
Those are questions I have asked and want to study, not the dynamics of perfectionism vs this or that.. lets stay on topic.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 08:49 AM
Will, sorry for getting off topic. Thank you for keeping me on task.
To answer your questions: first of all, I agree with you that 1 John 2:1 implies it is possible for a born again believer to commit a known sin. It's just that I also happen to believe John teaches it's not possible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. To commit a known sin a born again believer must first take their eyes off Jesus. In so doing they resurrect the mind of the old man and commit a known sin. Of course, the gift of repentance is available, which ultimately restores the relationship their sin severed.
1. Have you ever baptized anyone within the same hour after giving them the Gospel?
No.
2. How do we teach others about Jesus Christ, so they may be baptized when they ask in their hearts 'What must I do to be saved'?
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
3. Do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?
Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 09:19 AM
Hi Mike,
I can understand your zeal and passion for serving the Lord which is why you do what you do
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
What I want to understand is that is North America the only place where a person would have to take a baptism class for several weeks and to learn what is basically very simple? Does this exist in Africa, Asia, South America?
We have a very serious crisis going on that is serious enough to reach the very Throne of God, and He gave His only Son to come and die for our sins. Jesus said that a man has to be born again in by water and Spirit, and in 1 Corinthians we know that a person is a new creation.. the old things are past.
I have read Romans 6, and agree with what it says Mike I definitely do not have issues with that at all, and believe it whole heartedly and you know because of my own stupidity and what I believe to be lack of faith there have been times I have let go (very stupid I know) and have fallen on my face, and I know that The Lord picks me up and I go and pray and ask for forgiveness.
I have a serious concern for people who are in a really bad spot and I visit them and feed them every month (will soon be increasing frequency), and I know that The Lord is with them. Lets say for example (hypothetical situation) one of God's children who is on the streets strikes up a conversation with me, and there is a genuine interest to learn more about Jesus, so I would naturally give them a Bible and point them to John 3:16, and show them the verses in Acts 16:31, and this person says that they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ died for their sins and they want to be baptized.. What do I do? I am thinking ahead here because it can happen and I want to be prepared and don't want to give a basically lame excuse of telling them 'Well we can have a Bible study for the next X weeks' when in reality they may not be around the next day, week or month.
How does one handle this? All I have with me is the Holy Spirit, my Bible, and lots of literature which happens to include Steps to Christ.
Has this happened to you when you are overseas?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/05/04 07:10 PM
Will, thank you for being so understanding. I am excited about your mission involvement. You have chosen, what I consider to be, one of the most challenging groups to work with. You are in my prayers, brother.
You ask a very good question regarding the gospel and the timing of baptism. Here's the way I understand it and what I learned in college while studying for the ministry:
The disciples were baptizing people left and right, by the thousands, shortly after the ascension of Jesus, but they were basically reaping the harvest of Jesus' 3 1/2 year ministry. Most of these people were already familiar with the truth and all they needed was to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.
But as time passed, and they began to work with people less familiar with the truth, things slowed down markedly. The people who were baptized too soon, before they were thoroughly indoctrinated, went on to become the source of all manner of trouble within the church.
Baptism is basically membership approval and acceptance. People are baptized into the church. "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47. As such they need to know what it means to be a church member, what is expected of them. This is fair to them and necessary to protect the church from riff-raff and half converted souls. "As an important factor in the spiritual growth of the new converts the apostles were careful to surround them with the safeguards of gospel order." AA 185.
6BC 1075.7
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897).
8T 184.2
Some will be sanctified through the truth; but many make a superficial change in their habits and practices, and then suppose that they are Christians. They are received into church fellowship, but they are a great trouble and a great care. Through them Satan tries to sow in the church the seeds of jealousy, dishonesty, criticism, and accusing. Thus he tries to corrupt the other members of the church. The disposition that has mastered them from childhood, that led them to break away from all restraint and brought them down to degradation, still controls them. They are reported to be rescued, but too often time shows that the work done for them did not make them submissive children of God. At every supposed slight, resentful feelings rise. They cherish bitterness, wrath, malice. By their words and spirit they show that they have not been born again. Their tendencies are downward, tending to sensuality. They are untrustworthy, unthankful, unholy. Thus it is with all who have not been soundly converted. Every one of these marred characters, untransformed, becomes an efficient worker for Satan, creating dissension and strife. [end quote] You might want to read this quote in its context since it pertains to the type of ministry you've chosen to pursue.
That's why it is so important to follow Jesus' instruction and spend time with baptismal candidates and ensure they understand what it means to be converted and born again, what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist, especially in these last days. Surely there is time enough to properly prepare souls for baptism.
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/10/04 04:28 PM
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach; all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Amen Mike. I noticed that the word teach is used before baptizing them in verse 19. So many times people are baptized and then they find out what the commands of God are and that can be a real shock to some. Or some are not even taught the commands of God and they continue right on where they were. I do not believe we are really caring for their souls when we do not teach them before baptizing them.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/19/04 06:57 AM
This thread was opened, in part, with the following question:
quote:
Or do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?
Would a baptismal candidate want to be baptized before learning about our complicated rules and regulations? What happens if they get baptized before learning about them and afterwards they decide they don't agree with them?
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/19/04 03:32 AM
I'm not aware of any rules that made me want to wish I wasn't born again. If its not based on the Bible then those rules are completely useless, and redundant.
The jailer believed and him and his family were baptized after they heard the Word of God.
The thief on the cross wasn;t even baptized, and didn't have any special rules to follow, and he was saved.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/19/04 04:32 AM
I worked as an evangelist for Amazing Facts for a year, and I met alot of people across the country and Cananda who wanted to be baptized the first or second meeting of a 23 meeting series.
We were told to encourage these kinds of people to attend all the meetings and then make a decision to be baptized. On average, about 4 out of 10 of these kinds of people quit attending after they learned about the sabbath.
Quite a few quit when they learned the meetings were sponsored by the SDA church - "that legalistic cult". Others enjoyed the singing and the stories and were perfectly content to stay with their own church family.
In some cases I felt certain people were "saved" or "born again", and just because they rejected the SDA church or the sabbath didn't, in my mind, mean they were unsaved.
In 23 meetings, including home visits, some people still do not understand the SDA message and mission and, as such, they are not ready to commit to baptism and church membership.
So, is salvation contingent upon baptism and church membership?
John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Posted By: Shelley
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/20/04 06:04 AM
Having just read through the comments on this forum, there certainly is a lot to consider. I guess we need to take into consideration where people are at regarding what they must do to be saved:
1.The thief on the cross could not get down and be baptized, so was accepted right then and there.
2.The Jailer and his family accepted Jesus and were in a position to be baptized and were.
3.People who attend lengthy seminars are obviously searching and are in a position to accept Jesus and be baptized.
4.Homeless people are not usually in a position to follow the norm of attending church and should be (like the thief on the cross) accepted right where they are, and offered baptism.
We are not all the same and our squeaky clean churches often make it hard for people who are "different" to fit in.
An individual knows if they are born again. In my experience I was born again when I realized that God existed and that He loved me. An unbelievable sense of hope, joy and peace came over me. I wanted to be baptized but was refused because they thought that I was not ready. This was with the Jehovah Witnesses. I felt so disheartened that I stopped seeing them.
I knew in my heart that I had to find a church that was right. However the JWs had told me that everywhere else was pagan. I was really afraid to go anywhere and prayed like mad outside a church that Satan would not touch me. When I finally went in I knew that God was with me, I felt a tremendous peace come over me and I knew that I was not in a pagan place. It is amazing how God works.
The church that I was attending was a Sunday keeping church and they believed in going straight to heaven when dead. I knew from reading my bible that this was not true. I finally left that church and did not attend a church for 2 years. God still had a hold on me and led me to the Adventist church. Finally a church that teaches the truth.
My Husband and I were baptized 2 months ago. We went through the baptismal lessons and the fundamental beliefs. It was good and I am glad that we went through it. We both know and understand who and what we have committed to. However, I believe that I was saved before I was baptized. I was a changed person and only the spirit of God could have done that.
You just don't know how God will work in people’s lives.
God bless
Shelley
[ July 20, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Shelley ]
Posted By: John H.
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/20/04 06:19 AM
quote:
You just don't know how God will work in people’s lives.
A big Amen to that Shelley. Bless you in your renewed walk with Him.
I too was definitely born again before being baptized (the right way; having been sprinkled as an infant).
Then I got dunked yet again not too long ago, after a prolonged prodigal period. That time was the last one that will be needed, I trust.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/20/04 08:53 AM
It is amazing at how good God is, and how we all have the gift of eternal life extended to us in love, and no matter who or where we are Jesus said He would never leave us.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/24/04 07:52 PM
How can we know we are born again? What evidence do we base it on? Are there biblical guidelines or a check list?
1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/24/04 07:59 PM
Amazing Grace, page 20
In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. . . . But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace; he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth. . . . {AG 20.3}
The first step in reconciliation to God is the conviction of sin. . . . "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). In order to see his guilt, the sinner must test his character by God's great standard of righteousness. It is a mirror which shows the perfection of a righteous character and enables him to discern the defects of his own. The law reveals to man his sin. . . . It declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. . . . {AG 20.4}
In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. . . . {AG 20.5}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/24/04 08:08 PM
The Great Controversy, pages 468-470
The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy. While it promises life to the obedient, it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past" and becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries: "Abba, Father!" {GC 467.4}
Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Romans 3:31; 6:2; 1 John 5:3. In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun.
Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. {GC 468.1}
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}
The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13, 14. And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:5-10. {GC 470.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/24/04 09:14 PM
Please notice the when-then cause and effect relationship before and after a person is born again.
GC 468.1
When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97.
There is a radical transformation, which is nothing less than a miracle. When we are born again we are radically different. We pass from sin to holiness. Our old man habits of sin are eliminated. We are born again perfect, sinless. Some people have a hard time with this truth.
CH 44.2
The Spirit of God should have perfect control of us, influencing us in all our actions. If we have a right hold on Heaven, a right hold of the power that is from above, we shall feel the sanctifying influence of the Spirit of God upon our hearts.
NL 55.1
Sanctification is not a happy flight of feeling, not the work of an instant, but the work of a lifetime. If any one claims that the Lord has sanctified him, and made him holy, the proof of his claim to the blessing will be seen in the fruits of meekness, patience, long-suffering, truthfulness, and love.
AA 560.3
Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.
FLB 91
The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. In its great need the soul cries out for a power out of and above itself; and through the operation of the Holy Spirit the nobler powers of the mind are imbued with strength to break away from the bondage of sin.
RH 9-11-1883
In character and life will be manifested, like the teeming cluster of the vine, the precious graces of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Not one of these fruits will be miss-ing in the life of one in whose soul the Spirit of Christ abides.
DA 311
The tempter’s agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making ex-cuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.
RH 6-4-1901
Those who accept Satan’s reasoning are terribly deceived. They accept a position which has no true foundation. God is unchangeable. He is satisfied with nothing short of perfect obedience. Perfection is the only title which will gain admittance to heaven.
DA 668
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.
I think that many Seventh Day Adventists completely lose sight of the following truth:
Steps to Christ, page 46, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Consecration
"But what do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love. And yet men think it hard to give up all! I am ashamed to hear it spoken of, ashamed to write it.
God does not require us to give up anything that it is for our best interest to retain. In all that He does, He has the well-being of His children in view. Would that all who have not chosen Christ might realize that He has something vastly better to offer them than they are seeking for themselves. Man is doing the greatest injury and injustice to his own soul when he thinks and acts contrary to the will of God. No real joy can be found in the path forbidden by Him who knows what is best and who plans for the good of His creatures. The path of transgression is the path of misery and destruction."
...as I said, I think that many Seventh Day Adventists completely lose sight of the truth in the quotation above, thus they have the mistaken idea that they are somehow being "kind" by letting people hold on to the wrong idea about sin and are afraid to tell them the truth. SIN HURTS!
We need to stop trying to help the feelings of unbelievers by watering down the truth.
Testimonies for the Church Volume One, page 560, "...in an institution established among us the greatest danger would be of its managers' departing from the spirit of the present truth and from that simplicity which should ever characterize the disciples of Christ. A warning was given me against lowering the standard of truth in any way in such an institution in order to help the feelings of unbelievers and thus secure their patronage. The great object of receiving unbelievers into the institution is to lead them to embrace the truth. If the standard be lowered, they will get the impression that the truth is of little importance, and they will go away in a state of mind harder of access than before."
Posted By: Shelley
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/29/04 04:50 AM
Quoted by Claudia: "God does not require us to give up anything that it is for our best interest to retain. In all that He does, He has the well-being of His children in view. Would that all who have not chosen Christ might realize that He has something vastly better to offer them than they are seeking for themselves. Man is doing the greatest injury and injustice to his own soul when he thinks and acts contrary to the will of God. No real joy can be found in the path forbidden by Him who knows what is best and who plans for the good of His creatures. The path of transgression is the path of misery and destruction."
I agree that we should not water down the truth; however, the truth is often presented in a sledge hammer like fashion and is enough to turn anyone off.
Old habits die hard, especially if you have not grown up in the faith. Look at the children of Israel in the wilderness; it took them 40 years to get Egypt out of their system.
In my journey, I have been the recipient of bible bashing dictators, whom I promptly decided I wanted nothing more to do with. My current Pastor, however, had a very gentle approach, told me the truth and said to let God work on those areas that I had difficulty with. The truth was not watered down, it was discussed and pondered over.
Claudia's quote speaks volumes
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
, and would be a great piece to present to those who are new to the faith. It makes a lot of sense and a good discussion could be generated from it.
We need to “be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.” Mat 10:16
The Desire of Ages, page 328, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: The Invitation
"In these words Christ is speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:6. He has borne the burden of our guilt. He will take the load from our weary shoulders. He will give us rest. The burden of care and sorrow also He will bear. He invites us to cast all our care upon Him; for He carries us upon His heart."
Hi again, I was just thinking of something
The way I feel about this thing that has to do with Baptism and the way we seem to feel we have to hide the truth under a bushel... so people wont be offended....
To go along with that quotation from Steps to Christ about God only asking us to give up things that will hurt us and offering us something much better in return... I feel that somehow we as a church have gotten off track --in that we dont realize people are under a BURDEN of sin. Kind of like the woman at the well, doing all sorts of things but never getting their unspeakable thirst satisfied, because they are seeking for fulfillment in all the wrong things and all the wrong places.
I think we make the mistake of viewing our message as some sort of negative thing... as if "Oh no, we have to lay all this on people and make them give up something". Then instead of realizing our presentation of the truth is what's wrong, we go off and try to invent all sorts of things to "win" people, like the Celebration "fun" movement, for instance. And to me, it is really just mocking their sad state..
gotta go... bye
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/col/col29.htmljust read that and realize we have lost sight of our real mission and the good news message.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 08/10/04 07:01 PM
Claudia, thanx for sharing. Here's a passage from the link you posted.
COL 411
The class represented by the foolish virgins are not hypocrites. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth; but they have not yielded themselves to the Holy Spirit's working. They have not fallen upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, and permitted their old nature to be broken up. This class are represented also by the stony-ground hearers. They receive the word with readiness, but they fail of assimilating its principles. Its influence is not abiding. The Spirit works upon man's heart, according to his desire and consent implanting in him a new nature; but the class represented by the foolish virgins have been content with a superficial work. They do not know God. They have not studied His character; they have not held communion with Him; therefore they do not know how to trust, how to look and live. Their service to God degenerates into a form. [end quote]
And yet these people are accepted as members "in good and regular standing." Amazing. I agree, things are not as they should be. Hopefully things will get back on track - and soon.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 08/12/04 01:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Jesus defines believing on the Him as behaving like Him. Are we born again behaving like Jesus?
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
To the original question, "What must one do to be saved?" one must know what "being saved" means. I believe it means "to be converted." "Born again" would be another synonym.
John 3:16 tells us that whoever believes in Christ will be saved, and Jesus Himself gave an explanation as to what that meant in the preceding verses:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14, 15.
The principle Jesus enunciated was that believing involved seeing something. The cross reveals to us the character of God, of sin, of Satan, and of ourselves. If we do not resist it, it will convert us.
Another way to answer the question as to what one must to do be saved is to ask the question what is it that causes us to be lost? One answer to this question is resisting the Holy Spirit causes us to be lost. Thus one will be saved if he doesn't resist.
But what about holy living and keeping the commandments one might ask? When one is converted, the law is written in the heart, so that is taken care of. The following quote by the Spirit of Prophesy provides a nice explanation:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. DA 175, 176
I also like the following statement by E. J. Waggoner:
If we choose to have it [the law of God] established in our hearts, we have only to accept Christ by faith. Faith brings Christ to dwell in the heart. Ephesians 3:17. The law of God is in the heart of Christ (Psalm 40:8), so that the faith which brings Christ into the heart establishes the law there. And since the law of God is the establishment of his throne, the faith which brings the law into the heart, enthrones God there. And thus it is that God works in men "both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (This quote is from Waggoner's comments on Romans 3, I don't have a page number).
Posted By: danielw
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 08/12/04 03:39 AM
Thus one will be saved if he doesn't resist.
But aren't we all born children of wrath - in other words: Satan's possession?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 08/12/04 06:56 AM
Tom, thank you for sharing. I really appreciated what you posted. It makes perfect sense. When we're born again God implants within us the law and the ability to live in harmony with it. Now, that's good news.
Dan, although we are born the servants of sin, self and Satan, we still possess the ability to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit and to experience the miracle of rebirth and righteousness.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 10/09/04 07:47 AM
If God implant his law in the born again believers and they may live a perfect sinless life, how about those who didn’t realize that Sunday is not God’s 7th day Sabbath? Do they live in sin all the time because they broke the law at every 7th day, which mean they all would be lost? Or are they too saved by the grace of God because they loved him and his love rules their hearts?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 10/09/04 08:14 AM
Hi James,
Long time since I have seen you post, and I trust that the Lord is providing for you and your family
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
Your question brought a verse to mind.
quote:
Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Big difference between those who are ignorant of the Truth vs those who willfully reject and continue to reject the Truth.
God Bless and Happy Sabbath,
Will
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/20/06 10:49 PM
This verse comes to mind:
Quote:
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
If a person doesn't know about it, it is still a sin, however, if that person is living up to the truth that they know, then I believe that this sin is forgiven by the Lord.
If a person, however, knows about the 7th day Sabbath, and rejects it because it is not a convenient day for worship, then it is a known sin to that person that needs to be repented of in order for it to be forgiven by the Lord.
Salvation requires repentance from all known sin and from any other sin that the Holy Spirit reveals to them and convicts them of.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/21/06 07:03 AM
In order for a sin to be forgiven, it must be known, from the perspective of the person who committed the sin. That is, if I commit a sin in ignorance, I cannot be forgiven of it, unless I am made known of it. Forgiveness is not something which happens unilaterally.
Unless you're speaking of in a corporate sense, as in when Christ prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." In this sense *all* sin is forgiven, whether done ignorantly or not, which is evident by the fact that although we are sinners, we live. That is to say, as the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life."
To conclude, from the standpoint of God's unilaterally forgiving sin, *all* sin has been forgiven by God (the evidence of this being the fact that we are physically alive). From the standpoint of our personally receiving forgiveness, which involved repentance and reconciliation, we must know of the sin, as how can one repent or an unknown sin, or why would one need reconciliation for such?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/21/06 11:10 AM
Would a sin you are not aware of then stand in your way to hinder you from entering Gods kingdom?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/21/06 05:07 PM
Why are seeking an answer that was inspired by a young man's misunderstanding of the nature of Christ and the gospel? If the rich young ruler had any understanding of Jesus Christ he would never have asked the question and by pursuing the same question we are demonstrating the same ignorance.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/21/06 07:57 PM
Thomas, can you give an example? (of an unknown sin which might bar someone from heaven)
Regarding being saved, a description from the Spirit of Prophecy I like says,
Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
In this description we see that when one believes in Christ, he is brought into harmony with God and His law. The law is "written in the heart." On the basis of this description, it is difficult for me to see how there could be a barrier to such a one to entering into heaven based on something the believer does not know.
On the basis of Scripture, the same idea given by EGW is spelled out in the New Covenant, which speaks of the law being written in the heart.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/21/06 08:19 PM
Quote:
In order for a sin to be forgiven, it must be known, from the perspective of the person who committed the sin. That is, if I commit a sin in ignorance, I cannot be forgiven of it, unless I am made known of it. Forgiveness is not something which happens unilaterally.
From the standpoint of our personally receiving forgiveness, which involved repentance and reconciliation, we must know of the sin, as how can one repent or an unknown sin, or why would one need reconciliation for such?
Only commenting upon this part of your previous post...
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 01:12 AM
I'm not understanding your point, Thomas. How would an unknown sin bar one from heaven? The only way I can see that happening is if the sin becomes known, and one refuses to respond to the new light.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 01:56 AM
I see that I was not clear enough on what I meant. I read what you wrote as quoted below and became confused, where you trying to say that a person who is not aware of all their sin cannot be forgiven of those sins that they are unaware of? I am not asserting anything of the like that there would be such a scenario, I was trying to find out wether you believed there was such a scenario.
Quote:
In order for a sin to be forgiven, it must be known, from the perspective of the person who committed the sin. That is, if I commit a sin in ignorance, I cannot be forgiven of it, unless I am made known of it. Forgiveness is not something which happens unilaterally.
From the standpoint of our personally receiving forgiveness, which involved repentance and reconciliation, we must know of the sin, as how can one repent or an unknown sin, or why would one need reconciliation for such?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 02:03 AM
What about those, Thomas, who died believing that they day had been changed from abbath (Saturday) to Sunday?
They were sinning in ignorance, were they not?
And yet their sins of ignorance will have been forgiven, and they will be saved, will they not?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 04:24 AM
No Thomas, I wasn't suggesting that scenario. What I was saying is there are two ways of looking at forgiveness. There is forgiveness from the standpoint of the one offering the forgiveness, and the one receiving the forgiveness. If you committ an offense against me, it is possible for me to forgive you, even though you are unaware that you have offended me. I can set it in my heart to not lay this offense against you. This is exactly what Stephen did to those who were stoning him, and also what Christ did as He was being crucified. This attitude will be reflected in any true follower of Christ. This is how God's attitude is towards the world.
There is also forgiveness from the standpoint of the one who committed the offense. In order for forgiveness for an offense to be received from the standpoint of the one who committed the offense, the offending party must be aware of the offense he has committed. Then he can receive forgiveness from the party he has offended.
From God's perspective, He is not holding anything against us, as it says in 2 Cor. 5:19:
Quote:
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (NASB)
God does not count our sins against us. However, in order for us to be forgiven, from out perspective (that is, to feel forgiven, and experience forgiveness; to be reconciled to God in our experience) we must know of how we have offended God and repent of that deed. If we don't know what we've done, we cannot receive forgiveness for that deed, even though God, from His perspective, has already forgiven us.
Since a sin of ignorance is one by definition that we are not aware of, there is no way we could have experienced forgiveness for it. But it won't bar us from heaven, because only light which has been rejected can do that.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 07:06 AM
Quoted from Daryl post:
If a person doesn't know about it, it is still a sin; however, if that person is living up to the truth that they know, then I believe that this sin is forgiven by the Lord.
If a person, however, knows about the 7th day Sabbath, and rejects it because it is not a convenient day for worship, then it is a known sin to that person that needs to be repented of in order for it to be forgiven by the Lord.
Salvation requires repentance from all known sin and from any other sin that the Holy Spirit reveals to them and convicts them of.
Unquote.
If this person reject it because his study of the bible ensure him that Sabbath observation no longer required, is this a sin to him? How could he know the truth if no one come to teach him? How could he know the truth if the people that came to him teaching of the Sabbath was defeated because of their lack of knowledge of the Scripture or they could not express it well?
I knew that these events happened many times, so, whose fault is it? Is it his fault of rejecting the truth of the Sabbath, or is it the fault of the messenger that came to him but defeated?
In His love
James S
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 09:23 AM
Quote:
1 John 1 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Is this simmilar to what you are explaining Tom?
Quote:
Romans 14 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Daryl, doesnt this text cover the example you gave? I also think James made a good point.
Though, Romans 14 talks more about judging (or not) the choises others make in at least these areas.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 05:13 PM
James, here a point to ponder:
6T 371
The Lord does not now work to bring many souls into the truth, because of the church members who have never been converted and those who were once converted but who have backslidden. What influence would these unconsecrated members have on new converts? Would they not make of no effect the God-given message which His people are to bear? {6T 370.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 06:28 PM
Quote:
I knew that these events happened many times, so, whose fault is it? Is it his fault of rejecting the truth of the Sabbath, or is it the fault of the messenger that came to him but defeated?
We can be thankful that God is so kind and gracious that He takes all these things into consideration! We are quick to judge another as unworthy, especially if they disagree with us (those who agree with us automatically seem more worthy), but the Lord looks not at outward appearance, but at the heart. Also we should remember that God is not trying to keep people out of heaven, but get them in!
Anyway, your point is well-taken. It may be that a person who from our perspective has rejected truth, from the Lord's perspective has not done so. William Miller, for example, did not accept the Sabbath truth, yet EGW was shown he will be in heaven.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/22/06 06:36 PM
Yes, Thomas, that fits in. I was originally responding to Daryl's comment that God forgives sins done in ignorance. I was pointing out that in the sense that God forgives sins of ignorance, God forgives all sin. Known sin is treated differently because of us, not God (with the privisal that our situation necessarily requires God take that into account.)
To make an analogy. Say you offend me, but you don't know you have offended me. I have a choice to make. I can hold that offense against you, and wait for you to ask for forgiveness, or do whatever acts of pennance I think I am entitled to require of you before I forgive you, or I can freely forgive you, even before you ask. This latter option is the Spirit of Christ, and represents God's attitude.
As far as our receiving forgiveness, or experiencing it, we need to know of the offense. We cannot repent of, or be restored in relation to, an offense we do not know we are committing.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 05/23/06 06:52 AM
Quote:
Anyway, your point is well-taken.
- - - - - - - - - -
Yes, it is important to master the knowledge and technique of preaching the Gospel to people, fellow Christian’s non Sabbath observance.
I have seen and followed my pastor view years ago to preach the Gospel and share the Sabbath truth to a Pentecost member, and when my pastor talked and preached this guy, he countered back so good that my pastor was speechless. What a shame! And worse, my pastor never comeback to share again the gospel to this guy.
Many people don’t know how to share the Gospel of Christ in such a way that might take interest of people, and when confronted they lack of knowledge and defeated.
The result is; the soul that we want to share the Sabbath truth becomes more confidence of his righteousness.
Whose fault is it? It is our fault.
Therefore, I always try my best to know and understand the Scripture before I go and preach people and share about the Sabbath truth. I must master any topic regarding justification by faith, sanctification, redemption, origin of sin, the Law, etc. So, when I faced a dedicated and educated non Sabbath observance, I know how to speak and how to counter his defenses and counter attack with the Scripture.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 06/25/06 12:08 PM
What must I do to be saved?
According to the Scripture, I had been saved 2,000 years ago through Christ death and resurrection.
Christ had saved me from the death; he had given me a place in heaven in Him.
What I must do is believe his Gospel and live by the Spirit and He would save me from sin.
At the judgment day, my name would not be banned from the Book of life, thus, I have the right to accept what Christ had done for me, by entering the gate of heaven to the trees of life and ate of it.
Thanks God.
In His love
James S
Posted By: scott
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/25/06 05:54 PM
Quote:
by James: What I must do is believe his Gospel and live by the Spirit and He would save me from sin.
Hi James,
We know there is the gospel and there are false gospels. We have Christ's gospel and the Anti-Christ gospel. Two questions:
What is the true gospel?
Did Jesus teach the gospel?
In Christ, scott
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 03:54 AM
Scott.
This is the true Gospel:
The Gospel of Christ is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first for the Jews, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.” Romans 1:16, 17.
Jesus did teach the Gospel in live when he was on earth and through His Holy Spirit when he was in heaven.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 06:03 AM
James, what is the righteousness of God which is revealed?
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 06:49 AM
Can you tell me first, I may agree or disagree.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 07:54 AM
The righteousness of God which is revealed is His character; that's the Gospel. That is, the Gospel is, in Jesus' words "When you've seen me, you've seen the Father."
To use Ellen White's words, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us that we might be set right with Him. The only way that God could set man right and keep him right was to become visible and familiar to his eyes.
As the apostle John said, no one has seen God at any time. His only son, who knew Him best, has shown us clearly what He is really like.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 08:15 AM
Theres more to it than that Tom. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and the Gospel is Good News. So why would we want good news, and good news about what?
If I were on a sinking ship or worse, out in the ocean after the ship has sunk, good news would be that help is arriving soon,and that I would be saved from death. Good news isn't telling me what the help is like, it doesn't do anything for my current situation which is "i'm stranded out in the deep sea, and am helpless".
Our iniquities have separated us from God, and thrpough jesus Christ we are reconciled to God, so we are set right with Him. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
There is a problem, and that problem has a solution. Revealing what a solution is like doesn't solve the problem.
I hope you understand what I am saying, if needed I can elaborate some more, but thats thegist of it.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 08:59 AM
If the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us, to use Ellen White's words, what is the "more to it" that is missing?
Christ destroyed the works of the devil by revealing the truth. God's government is moral; love and truth are its prevailing power.
Certainly the Good News is that we are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. This is the Gospel! How does Jesus Christ reconcile us to God? By revealing God to us, which was the whole purpose of His mission.
Paul discusses this in Colossians chapter 1:
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
Previously we are alienated and enmies in our minds, but by the blood of the cross, through Him through whom the Father dwelt bodily in His fullness, we are reconciled to God.
The revelation of God *is* the solution, because to know God is eternal life.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 04:41 PM
I dont understand what you are saying, well I do but and I am seeing something rather odd. I am seeing you do not agree that Christ came to save us, but to reveal His Father to us correct? I dont agree with that because Jesus Christ said "And this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thous hast sent" John 17:3. Without Christ we are nothing, or to use His words, Without me ye can do notthing John 15:5.
He came to take away our sins,and to destroy the works of the devil that was His mission. The Father revealed Himself many times in the Bible, the Israelites were well aware of this, and knew about this via the sanctuary services, the exodus, the prophets, and they also knew that the Messiah would come up and save them. To me this is very clear, which is why I don't see how you come up with the theory of revealing the Father, and leave Christ out of the equation.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 05:55 PM
Jesus said, "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father" so when we know God, we know Jesus Christ. Jesus was not suggesting that eternal life is knowing to different persons, as if One had nothing to do with the other. In fact, the Spirit of Prophecy tells us that if the Father had come in place of the Son, the history of His life would have been no different. Jesus Himself said, "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father."
How is it that Christ takes away our sins? He does it by converting us. When we are justified by faith, Christ pardons our sins, and writes the law in our hearts. We are reconciled to God by His death, and saved by His life. This is how we are saved from our sins.
What is the work of the devil? It is to mispresent God's character. He makes God out to be selfish, arbitrary, harsh, severe and unforgiving. This leads us to view God in a false light, which in turn leads to our not trusting Him, which bears fruit of disobedience, which leads to misery, pain, suffering, guilt, condemnation and death. Jesus destroys these works by putting the lie to Satan's claims, restoring us to faith in God, giving us eternal life, which bears fruit in obedience, leading to lives of peace, safety, and happiness (if not all things in this life, in the life to come).
The theory of revealing the Father is not mine. It's the theme of all the Scriptures.
Then He said to them, 'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?' And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.(Luke 24:25-27)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:39, 20)
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person. (Hebrews 1:1-3)
I'm very surprised by your comment about my leaving Christ out of the equation. He *is* the equation! My entire post of which you were commenting was about Him!
Please not what Paul wrote in Colossians chapter 1:
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
We were alienated and enemies in our mind. We needed to be reconciled. We are reconciled by the blood of His cross, and not only us, but "things in heaven" as well.
By reconciling us, Christ destroys the work of the devil, and saves us from our sins.
Tom
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 06:22 PM
Thank you for clarifying your statement, which is why I asked if I was correct in assessing what you said cause I found it confusing.
Why would Jesus pray to the Father, that life eternal is knowing Him(The Father) and Jesus Christ who He has sent.
There was a factor of knowing 2 persons. I say this because Jesus emphasized that, and was showing His disciples some very interesting things about His mission, who He was sent by, who He learned from, and who loves them, what would happen to Him, The Bible clearly states what the works of the devil is. It is sin, those are his works, and whoever practices sin is of the devil for the devil has sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
God bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 06:48 PM
I'm not following your point regarding the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. (John 14:7-9)
The whole purpose of Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father. It's true that God was revealed in "sundry ways" in the Old Testament, but the fullness of His glory was not seen until Jesus Christ (John 1:14-18; Heb. 1:1-3; 2 Cor. 3).
I agree that sin is the work of the devil. But is sin a physical thing which can be destroyed? Or is the battle one which is fought in the mind?
Sin resides in the mind, so in order to destroy it, the mind must be changed. One must be born again. This is where Jesus Christ comes in. Quoting from Ellen White:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Here we see the stages of salvation:
1.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God.
2.This love draws us to Himself.
3.If we do not resist, we will be led to repentance.
4.We are brought into harmony with God and His holy law.
Posted By: scott
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 07:05 PM
Quote:
By James: This is the true Gospel:
The Gospel of Christ is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first for the Jews, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.” Romans 1:16, 17.
Jesus did teach the Gospel in live when he was on earth and through His Holy Spirit when he was in heaven.
Amen, James, Jesus did teach the gospel and it was good news. I think that many don’t understand the way the Jews thought. They believed that God was in every act of nature doing good and evil as either a reward or punishment. They believed that if there were a storm that flooded a man’s house the man must have some deep sin and God had to punish him. If a man had a disease it was sent from God as a punishment. Every act of the Adversary was attributed to God. This idea of God was started in heaven by Lucifer as he whispered of God’s supposed indiscretions.
Trust is the issue in the Great Controversy
God said that if man ate of the tree in the midst of the garden that man would die. Satan said that God was a liar and that the tree was good to make one wise. Therefore, the thought had to have crossed Adam and Eve’s mind, while enjoying eating the fruit, “if this fruit isn’t going to kill us then who is?” Thus they were hiding for fear of their lives when God showed up. Somehow in one conversation with Satan our first parents were convinced that God is lethal and someone to fear.
There is a “fear of God” that is a healthy respect kind of like the fear of my wife. I am really afraid to hurt her in any way. I love and respect her and would never do or say anything to bring down her wrath (leave me or divorce me). I’m not afraid that she would torch me because she is a peace loving individual that respects life, but I know that if I persisted in doing harm to her and the kids she would definitely leave me to my own self destructive ways.
There is another fear that is bad. That fear would be like having a wife that was psychotic and knowing that if I crossed a certain line, sometime, somewhere, she would find a way to kill me to get even. I don’t think I would want to be married to her. In fact I would want to run as far away from her as possible as quickly as possible. God has been presented by Satan as someone we can’t trust and someone we better fear. No wonder this world is in such a mess. The masses are running from Him, trying to appease Him, wondering why He inflicts so much suffering on little undeserving men, women, and children, wondering when it is my turn to be in the receiving end of one of God’s temper tantrums.
God is love and perfect love casts out fear. Jesus (God) came to earth disguised as a human. He was an ambassador from heaven representing God like none before Him. He presented God as “light and there is no darkness in Him”. He presented God as unconditional love, someone that wants to be our friend, someone that cries over our pain, rejoices in our joys, heals us when we are sick, and would give His life to save ours. This is our God. Behold Him on the cross!
This is good new! Really good news!
In Christ, scott
Posted By: scott
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 07:22 PM
Hi Tom,
I think, according to your last post, we see things very similar. Thank you for making it so clear.
In the dark ages the church took the gospel away from the common people by removing bibles and setting up the clergical hierarchy.
In modern times the reformed church has taken the gospel away through language. Rather than making things simple they make them hard. This is why I appreciate Ellen so much. Although she enters the realm of theology and speaks their language she also breaks it down into understandable pieces. Many of her interpretations of the theological "dark speech" are refreshing and illuminating.
Thanks again!
In Christ, scott
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 07:26 PM
Will n Tom, Is there any specific reason this must be an either or situation? I see no reason that Jesus mission could not have been both to show us who God Father is and to save us from our sins by being the guiltless lamb sacraficed for us. Two biblical pictures of Jesus mission to earth, you arent forced to choose between them.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 07:54 PM
Being the guitless lamb of God sacrificed for us (and by us) shows us who God the Father is better than anything else possibly could. They aren't two different things, but one. There is no "either or" involved.
Tom
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 08:02 PM
Scott, I agree completely that truth is the issue involved in the Great Controversy. Above all else, the issue is "What is the truth about God?"
From the beginning God has been seeking to reveal the truth about Himself, but the adversary, our nature, and our sins, make things very difficult for Him, as these things conspire to cause us to misinterpret what He is saying to us. It is a terrible shame that (some) Christians (e.g. who believe that God predestines certain ones to be tortured eternally in hell) have the worst possible view of God's character possible.
Here's something from our official website:
God's greatest desire is for you to see a clear picture of His character. When you see Him clearly, you will find His love irresistible.
For many, "seeing God clearly" requires that they see God's face. However, how He looks is not the issue. Seeing and understanding His character is what's most important. The more clearly we understand Him, the more we will find His love irresistible. As we begin to experience His love, our own lives will begin to make more sense.
God most clearly reveals His character in three great events. The first is His creation of man and woman--and His giving them the freedom of choice. He created humans with the ability to choose to love Him or to hate Him! The death of Jesus Christ, God's only Son, on the cross as our substitute is the second great event. In that act He paid the penalty we deserve for our hateful choices toward God and His ways. Jesus' death guarantees forgiveness for those choices and allows us to spend eternity with Him. The third event confirms the first two and fills every heart with hope: Christ's tomb is empty! He is alive, living to fill us with His love!
Jesus' disciple John wrote that if everyone wrote all the stories they knew about Jesus, the whole world could not contain them. Our knowledge of God helps us understand His love, character, and grace. Experiencing that love begins a lifelong adventure in growth and service. This knowledge and experience powers our mission to tell the world about His love and His offer of salvation. (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/index.html)
This is a nice emphasis! I'm glad to see our official site emphasizing the importance of "seeing God clearly." I agree with whoever wrote this that this is what's important, and it is appropriate that this be the emphasis of our denomination.
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 10:31 PM
I think its both Thomas. I believe iis the grand scheme of things, the Bible says so and Jesus mentioned that when Phillip asked Him to show us the Father. Jesus mentioned His Father on different occasions.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/26/06 10:41 PM
Tom I disagree. You said Jesus whole purpose waws to reveal the Father, the Bible cleary and expressly states that Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. I dont have a problem with that at all, as I dont have a problem with Christ telling His disciples about the Father, but I do have a major bone to pick when Christ's work is negated to one of a real estate broker showing you a house with all the nice bells n whitsles, and how nice it would be to own one. Action needs to take place to pull you out of that situation. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
There was a bigger plan in mind and that was to save mankind from the clutches of satan, whom they had given allegiance to, and also to whom the world belonged to.
The prophets mentioned this, He would heal the sick, restore eight to the blind, set the captives free etc etc. What Jesus did was redeem us, He bought us back, by using Himself as a sacrifice, and died to take away our sins.
By believing in Him and having faith in what He did, you not only believe Him but believe in Him that sent Him which was His Father.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/27/06 12:14 AM
Thomas,
I wanted to complete my line of thought:
Simultaneously Christ Christ dwelt among men to become more like us, and He had a mission to accomplish, and in Him was found no sin, but He became sin for us. I know what you are saying, about it not being one or the other, yet it appears to me that it does come down to one or the other by negating the redemtion of mankind by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We don't need a sales person to show us how neat and packaged out product is, we need someone to take action and give us what we need.
In fact the book of revelation starts off with the most siginificant important words that will have an affect on all mankind since the beginning of time:
Quote:
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
If its not one or the other, it must include both. I don't see that in Tom's post's, so I will come and defend the fact that Christ's work was to redeem mankind, not show us some far off person in another galaxy, and how good He is, we know that from John 3:16, John 16:27,1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. I need to know "Will I be forgiven, Will I be saved, What must I do to be saved". From there you begin your commitment, and by faith in believing that God is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, well its a life long walk, one with a definite good and wonderful ending.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/27/06 06:08 AM
Quote.
Sin resides in the mind, so in order to destroy it, the mind must be changed. One must be born again. This is where Jesus Christ comes in. Quoting from Ellen White:
Unquote.
Sin resides in the mind?
Romans 7:18, 20, 23.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no mor3e I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
In His love
James S
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/27/06 06:29 AM
Well, you folks get on a clip so fast, by the time I get a look; you’ve gone a couple of pages here.
Tom, you know I agree wholeheartedly about the revelation of God’s character. But that is half the story. The other half is how that character of God can become ours, and that is what Christ is about. There are two sides in a relationship. There is the “Faith” of the Son and the “Love” of the Father. We must know the Son of God in order to discover “Faith”. Without faith, the love of the Father will find no entry.
So I agree with Will and Thomas that there are two sides, and we must know both the Father and his Son. It is by knowing the Son that we become sons of the Father.
We have shared lots on the love of the Father. We ought to discuss some on the Faith of the Son.
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier
“of him that is of the faith of Jesus”.
The meaning of this text has been highly altered in most translations.
"him that is of the faith of Jesus". Let us think about that.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/27/06 06:37 AM
See, before I even get to put up a little post; another page flipped.
Yes James, your point is good. The answer to the flesh is in the realization of ‘faith’. What does it mean to be a Son?
Think about this folks. I have to go now. Working on a number of other posts and time is late. I’ll see how far you get by the time I get a chance to get back here.
Posted By: scott
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/27/06 04:53 PM
Quote:
By Will: If its not one or the other, it must include both. I don't see that in Tom's post's, so I will come and defend the fact that Christ's work was to redeem mankind, not show us some far off person in another galaxy, and how good He is, we know that from John 3:16, John 16:27,1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. I need to know "Will I be forgiven, Will I be saved, What must I do to be saved".
Hi Will, If one really knew God like Jesus knew Him those questions would be answered. Jesus answered all of them by revealing God.
Quote:
By James: Sin resides in the mind? Romans 7:18, 20, 23.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no mor3e I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
In His love
Hi James, I think what Tom is saying is that sin is integral to our human nature. Jesus taught that if we hate our brother then we have in essence murdered Him. Also if we lust in our minds we have committed adultery. The word “flesh” is in Romans is in reference to the human nature which is just as much a sick mind as it is a sick body.
In Christ, scott
Posted By: Will
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/28/06 03:50 AM
Hi Scott,
Jesus answered them by dying for us, being resurrected, ascending to heaven, and promised us to come again and take us with Him, to a literal physical place called heaven, and if you can believe that, and accept by faith what He has done, and desire to be made new old things passed away, and trust Him enough to ask for forgiveness, and give praise, you are saved. Its not a 1 sided issue, as you and Tom believe.
If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, and focus on the Father who sent Him, then that would be completely opposed to what Christ said "No man comes to the Father but by Me".
Jesus came to earth to destroy the works of the devil,redeem all of humanity "For God so loved the world" and to reconcile us to the Father. Jesus was sent by the Father, and if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.
Christ came to take away our sins, it wasn't solely about revealing the Father. In fact the entire Bible is about Christ, about a Savior for the human race, about a solution to a problem with rewards, about the plan of salvation where the Father sends His only Son, who came in the Fathers name.
I dont agree with Tom's assessment, this is about the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. If you leave Christ out, you have a huge problem. Jesus said "Without me ye can do nothing".
God Bless,
WIll
Posted By: dedication
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/28/06 04:03 AM
What does it mean to be born again?
Is it simply saying "I now believe" ? I realize that's rather the popular definition, but is it the Biblical definition-- or is it a narrowing the truth down to a dead skelaton.
What did Jesus mean when He said:
"Matt 15:8 This people draw nigh unto me with their mouth, and honour me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9 In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Also didn't Peter BELIEVE?
He's the one that said "YOU ARE the Son of God!"
yet, Jesus says "When you are converted..... (Luke 22:32)
To be born again MEANS TO BE CONVERTED.
And what does it mean to be CONVERTED?
To be born again means "to be a new creature in Christ"
"1 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eze. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/28/06 02:51 PM
The way the Spirit of Prophecy put it is that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the Father, in order that man might be set right with God. She referenced John 17, where Jesus told us that life eternal is to know God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent.
Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that if the Father had come, and the Son remained in heaven, the history of His life would have been the same.
The way we know the Father is through the Son. Jesus said, "No man knows the Son, except the Father, and no man knows the Son, except the Father, and he to whom the Father reveals Him." So when we know God, we really know the Father, whom the Son revealed.
Jesus' job was to reveal the Father, not Himself. In the John 17 passage He said, "I have manifest thy glory." The glory of God is His character. Again He said, "I have declared Thy name." The name in Scripture represents the character.
I like the formulation of this which Ty Gibson gives:
1.Misperception of God's character.
2.Distrust of God.
3.Disobedience.
4.Guild and condemnation (which comes from sin).
This is the order that he presents man's problems. The root cause is the misperception of God's character (1, which leads to 2, 3, and 4). To fix man's problem, the root cause, 1, must be taken care of. This agrees with EGW's assertion, and Jesus' own words in John 17, that the whole purpose of His mission was to reveal God.
Notice she says that the revelation of God sets us right with Him. "Set right" is another term for "justifies." By faith we apprehend the truth about God which Jesus Christ is revealing. We are reconciled by the blood of the cross, and not we only, but "things in heaven" as well.
The passage from the Desire of Ages explains the process of salvation well. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. The sinner is drawn to God in repentance. The law is written in the heart.
Tom
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/29/06 04:45 AM
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whomsoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
The Father decision to send his Son to save men, to die for the remission of their sins, to die in order they might live again.
The Son came to reveal the Father, to live the life of love, for God is love, and die as the ultimate sacrifice unselfish love can ever made. In this way, those who come to know the Father by this revelation would have eternal life.
In His love
James S
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/29/06 03:47 PM
Tom
Noone is contesting that Jesus came to show us who God is. There is really no need to further assert that. What you instead ought to do (considering the position you have taken) is to show us why Jesus did NOT come to save us from our sins by His blood.
1Jo 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/29/06 08:16 PM
Quote:
I like the formulation of this which Ty Gibson gives:
1.Misperception of God's character.
2.Distrust of God.
3.Disobedience.
4.Guild and condemnation (which comes from sin).
This is the order that he presents man's problems. The root cause is the misperception of God's character (1, which leads to 2, 3, and 4). To fix man's problem, the root cause, 1, must be taken care of. This agrees with EGW's assertion, and Jesus' own words in John 17, that the whole purpose of His mission was to reveal God
I agree that it is misperception of God’s character. But misperception of God’s character is not an objective thing. It is a subjective thing. No matter how much objective evidence, doubt is subjective, and that is where the problem is.
Christ came to save us from doubt. He is the author of faith, so that we may overcome doubt and believe the truth of God. Sin’s concept of God does not allow for a true perception of God. Before the truth of God can be received, faith is needed.
This is why all the revelation of the character of God has been further misperceived. The penal-substitution, concept of sin, salvation, righteousness, judgment; all these are misperceived; not because of lack of objective evidence but because of the working of sin.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/30/06 07:30 AM
Quote.
Hi James, I think what Tom is saying is that sin is integral to our human nature. Jesus taught that if we hate our brother then we have in essence murdered Him. Also if we lust in our minds we have committed adultery. The word “flesh” is in Romans is in reference to the human nature which is just as much a sick mind as it is a sick body.
In Christ, scott
Unquote.
The fact that we need a transformation from this body of death to the everlasting body at the 2nd return of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) gives evidence that “sin is in our members.” This is, I think, is the DNA and genes we inherit from our ancestors that has it’s origin to Adam.
What is in the mind is the urge or desires of the flesh that sends it’s signal to the brain, so that we want to have or to do what sin is and we did sin by following it.
Just as James said: “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” – James 1:14, 15.
Therefore, Paul said that we should not live by the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4, 5).
The war is between the flesh (the desires) and the Spirit but this war is held in our mind, not in the flesh. That’s why we still need a body transformation even though we had been transformed in our heart through faith.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/31/06 03:33 AM
Quote:
What you instead ought to do (considering the position you have taken) is to show us why Jesus did NOT come to save us from our sins by His blood.
But Jesus DID come to save us from our sins by His blood. What we are discussing is what that means. I think it means what Paul says here:
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. (Col. 1:19-21)
Or Peter here:
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.(1 Pet. 3:18)
I also addressed this in the Fifield quote I presented in the atonement thread, so I won't repost it here.
I will repost the following statement from the Spirit of Prophecy, however, which clearly lays out how the cross of Christ saves us:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Posted By: Tom
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 07/31/06 03:37 AM
Well said, James!
The Good News is that the Spirit is stronger than the flesh:
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. (Ga. 5:16)
Posted By: scott
Re: What must I do to be saved? - 08/03/06 07:11 PM
Quote:
by James: The war is between the flesh (the desires) and the Spirit but this war is held in our mind, not in the flesh. That’s why we still need a body transformation even though we had been transformed in our heart through faith.
I agree with this 100%. Salvation is a free gift to all men, but how many will actually open up their minds and commune with God through the Holy Spirit. We can't be changed unless we let Him in. There is no power to change in us.
In Christ, scott