Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger

Jeff Pippenger is a diligent bible student. In the last 10 or more years he's applied some prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to our time. Recently he's applied the third woe/seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 to our day. http://www.thelatterrainisnow.com/thirdwoe.html. Is he using right principles of interpretation?

Here's something from his site:



I don't see how he gets from this that Ellen White says that an angry horse represents radical Islam. I couldn't find anywhere in Ellen White's writings that this was suggested.

I notice he is looking to apply prophecies to 9/11. I think this is a big mistake. Back in the late 30's/early 40's SDA's thought the coming of Christ was near because of Adolph Hitler. When JFK became the first Catholic president, there were SDA's thinking Christ's coming was near because of that. Many example of this could be given, but the SOP tells us as early as 1858 I think that "Christ could have come 'ere this." She says that Christ was bitterly disappointed that He could not come around the time the latter rain was being poured out in 1888 and thereafter. (I think this was 1903). It would hardly make sense for Christ to be disappointed if 9/11/2001 is prophesied in Scripture -- surely Christ would have known that.



The real reason for Christ's delay doesn't have to do with 9/11 or any other prophecy not being fulfilled, but with the rejection of the light which God gave to lighten the earth with glory. Rev. 18:1 (which Ellen White references here) is "that other angel," the loud cry of the third angel. Christ would have come very shortly had the message been heeded instead of rejected, and His coming will be very soon whenever the acceptance of this light takes place.

His application of multiple fulfillments is interesting. As I recall, Desmond Ford used a similar technique in his book "Daniel," but I'm not familiar enough with it to say how much the techniques used are similar or different.

Well, those are certianly things to consider. I'll try to make a few observations, maybe on Sabbath, on the methods he's using. One good thing about him - he stimulates my thinking.

By the way, I've been listening to David Fiedler's sermons from the 2008 GYC on 1888. He's a bit glib, but overall he has a good analysis. I agree with a lot of what he says - most of it.

Have you read any Were? I don't know if I have any "soft print" of his. I'll see if I can get some if you'd like. I think he has a very solid framework for studying prophecy; I can't think of anyone with a better one. It's very Christocentric and Gospel focussed.

Yes I've read some of Were. I think what I read was from the 1950's. I thought it was good.

I should point out that the site I linked to is anonymous. Jeff Pippenger almost certianly did not publish it. But I linked to it because it mirrors his teaching well and summarizes it. A lot of what Jeff presents is complex. This site is a good simplification. I don't endorse the contents. I question some of the methods he uses and his conclusions. But I enjoy reading any prophetic study that challenges my views and causes me to look at things from another angle and modify them.

Looking at things from different angles and having our thinking challenged is definitely helpful.

Yes, Pippenger is saying that 9/11 was the beginning of the fulfilment of the third woe of Rev 11:14-19:

More than this, in a nut shell, Pippenger is also saying that the sealing, the latter rain, and the judgment of the living for Adventists started on 9/11. He comes to that conclusion by a combination of applying what he calls the 'triple application principle' to the Bible prophecy and by putting together statements of Ellen White that do seem to associate the latter rain, the sealing and the judgment of the living together and by applying them to the Loud Cry message of Revelation 18:1-3. There is at least one statement from Sister White that can be interpreted to read that when skyscrappers in New York City fall, the Loud Cry will be given. Pippenger puts that statement together with her others to say that since the Twin Towers fell on 9/11, and since they were brought down by radial Islamic extremists, the Loud Cry began on that date and by association the other events - the sealing, latter rain and judgment of the living - did too. I agree with associating the Loud Cry, sealing, latter rain and judgment of the living together, but is it valid 1) to pin them to the 3rd woe of Revelation 11, and 2) is it valid to make 9/11 the fulfilment of the third woe?

Going back to his 'triple application principle', if you view some of his videos you can see that he has found several parallels in first, second and third applications of prophecies. Much of what he says is interesting and the result of careful observation. It's been a while since I looked at them so I can't recall many of the details, but I remember thinking that some of the connections he was making were remote/doubtful, and/or strained the meaning or context of the text. His logic is good, but if the connections he's making are not well founded to begin with, the logic isn't helpful in arriving at the conclusion.

A while after the fall of communism and the Berlin Wall, Pippenger got the attention of many conservative Adventists with his application of that event to Daniel 11:40:
He said that the King of the South was communism and that in 1989, the King of the North, the Papacy allied with the USA, overthrew it. At that time and up to now, Pippenger says that we will see the rest of chapter 11 fulfilled shortly. And in the big picture, I'm sure he's right. But was he right in applying that text to the fall of communism?

Personally, I think Elder Pippenger is mistaken on both interpretations - the 1989 fall of communism in Daniel 11 and the fall of the Twin Towers as the third woe of Revelation 11. But the more important issues are 1) where did he go wrong and 2), especially, where is he partly right. Recall that William Miller made major mistakes as well, but God used him in a mighty way regardless.

The same may be true of Brother Jeff. What I'm thinking of in particular is that fact that we Adventists, for the last 165 years have believed that the judgment of God and of the living is at some unknown time based on Ellen Whites statement that soon, none know how soon, the judgment will turn to the cases of the living. But we've ignored her equally inspired statements that today 'God is measuring you'. . . etc. For many years I've been convicted and told others that yes, the judgment of the living is going on individually. The scripture says judgment begins with us, the household of God. For those who have the light of the full gospel, that Christ can deliver from sin fully, the judgment is here friends. And, it's good news. Christ is our saviour and our Righteousness. Overall, that's that more important message and personally, I'm glad to see that Pippenger's message is having an impact.

Regarding where he's gone wrong, I'd say it seems like his initial misapplication of Daniel 11 was caused by the straight jacket that conservative Adventists put on reapplications of prophecy. Over the last four or so decades, Hope International and similar well meaning ministries stiffled open-minded investigation of the scriptures by doggedly following "Historic" interpretations of prophecy. Pippenger was affected by that closed environment. And that initial misapplication of Daniel 11 has lead to his current ones. But his conclusion that the latter rain is current reality and that we live in the sealing, judgment hour - in my view, those are timely, awsome, present truthes. God speed to you, Brother Jeff.

i couldnt help but think of that verse with bush going to war with irag and the plan to wipe out every country that might be a threat to us.

I think where he went wrong was in not recognizing the significance of 1888. From the SOP:



If this is correct, is seems logically impossible that 9/11 (or any other event post 1888) could be the correct interpretation of anything in Revelation, or elsewhere in Scripture. This is because had Christ come in the 1888 era, it's not possible that any of these things could have been fulfilled later.

Actually, there is a way. One could make the argument that 9/11 could have happened in some other way in the 1888 era, had the 1888 message not been resisted. That would be logically consistent. However, it would be logically impossible to assert that 9/11 is *the* interpretation of Revelation.

At any rate, I think any attempt to interpret Revelation which doesn't take into account the happenings of 1888 is due to failure.

The message was given over 150 years ago that Christ's coming was soon. The SOP tells us it could have been. There has to be a reason why Christ hasn't come. 1888 explains why.

Reluctantly, I need to update my assessment of Jeff Pippenger's teaching.

I listened recently to a sermon by Brother Jeff at the Seven Thunders web site that he gave ealier this year. The link to the video of his sermon is http://theseventhunders.com/cls0921.html. Some of you know I've followed Jeff's ministry for several years. His studies have always stimulated my thinking, but there also have always been some concerns. But this most recent sermon called "Eating the Little Book", raises my concern to a new level.

Jeff claim that the judgment of the living began at 9/11/01 when the twin towers were attacked. He makes that a test of faith now, saying that on that date, the Mighty Angel of Revelation 10 came down with the little open book in his hand and if you and I want to be sealed and be part of the 144,000 we have to accept this interpretation. According to Jeff, the message of the Angel, that is, the message contained in the little book, is the message that the seventh trumpet began sounding on 9/11; the attack on the twin towers was by Islamic extremists and since the 5th and 6th trumpets, according to the 1843 time chart were also Islamic woes, it follows that the twin tower attack is the fulfilment of the seventh trumpet and third woe; and if you fail to understand and accept that interpretation, you are refusing to eat the little book and you will loose not only your position among the 144,000, you'll loose your salvation over it.. (Listen for example to minute 30 to 31 of the video.)

Until now, I've not discouraged anyone from reviewing Jeff's material if they are aware of some of the weaknesses of his interpretations, because much of it was good. I'm sorry I can't do that any longer. I can't recommend him as a study source. Here are some reasons (not ranked):

- The seventh trumpet is like the seventh seal and the seventh plague - probation is closed at that time. Jeff teaches that probation is open under the seventh trumpet.

-Ellen White says the trumpets and seals both have a future application. We should be looking for the future fulfilment of the all seven trumpets and seals in their order rather than for the fulfilment of the seventh trumpet only.

-The message of the little book is the three angel's messages. These are for the world and our focus should be on giving them to the world.
-Ellen White also says the seven thunders are future events that will be disclosed in their order. We don't know all of the details of what lies ahead.
-These ideas misrepresent the character of God. Would God make belief in this interpretation, a minor point of prophecy, a test of salvation for Adventists or for anyone else?

I could add more but you all have the scriptures. "Prove all things".

Mark, thank you for the heads up. Too bad Jeff has gone so far afield. We used to teach at the same camp meetings several years ago.

Personally, I think where he went wrong is in reapplying the prophecies into multiple meanings.

I haven't been following his teachings, but what I have heard I've had major disagreements with.

A point -- there are several people out there, who are claiming "new light" "for the last message" and lacing it with quotes from EGW that all who don't accept the message will be lost. Only problem is they don't agree with each other. That's the problem with the "multiple meanings" approach -- people come up with "private interpretations" which they then proclaim to be the "last testing truth".


On one point I agree with Tom --
The testing message for the reception of the latter rain is the 1888 message.

The big emphases on "accept my message or be lost" already raises a big red flag. Anyone who applies the quotes on the urgency of accepting the "righteousness in Christ" message as a weapon to get people to accept their own message, are beating on the wrong drum.

This movement has a gnostic tone to it.

Jeff has admitted that he has been in error on numerous occasions yet always seems to give a reason or justification for it. This makes him very dangerous.

It is a latter rain movement. Sept 11, 2001 began its commencement. Historically these type of movements breed fanaticism.

It is intellectually based. If you don't embrace a certain knowledge and understanding of these principles you are lost. I have heard this implied from a number of his devotees.

Notice the following statement from Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 291, 292:

Let none be self-confident, as though God had given them special light above their brethren. Christ is represented as dwelling in His people. Believers are represented as "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord," says Paul, "beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

That which Brother D calls light is apparently harmless; it does not look as though anyone could be injured by it. But, brethren, it is Satan's device, his entering wedge. This has been tried again and again. One accepts some new and original idea which does not seem to conflict with the truth. He talks of it and dwells upon it until it seems to him to be clothed with beauty and importance, for Satan has power to give this false appearance. At last it becomes the all-absorbing theme, the one great point around which everything centers; and the truth is uprooted from the heart.

No sooner are erratic ideas started in his mind than Brother D begins to lose faith and to question the work of the Spirit which has been manifested among us for so many years. He is not a man who will entertain what he believes to be special light without imparting it to others; therefore it is not safe to give him influence that will enable him to unsettle other minds. It is opening a door through which Satan will rush in many errors to divert the mind from the importance of the truth for this time. Brethren, as an ambassador of Christ I warn you to beware of these side issues, whose tendency is to divert the mind from the truth. Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. It is always dangerous. The enemy has great power over minds that are not thoroughly fortified by prayer and established in Bible truth.

There is an intellectual pride emanating from its core. His followers put him on a pedestal. I have heard him referred to as not only brilliant but almost a prophet by a number of his followers.

The 1843 chart has become an icon and the belief that it is infallible is presented as a testing truth (though the original contained a mistake ordained of God).

We do have a chart, but it is more far reaching than the 1843 version. The Bible is our chart. Notice the following statement found in Review and Herald, June 11, 1908.

"God has given us his Word as a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. Its teachings have a vital bearing on our prosperity in all the relations of life. Even in our temporal affairs it will be a wiser guide than any other counselor. Its divine instruction is the only way to success. There is no social position, no phase of human experience, for which the study of the Bible is not an essential preparation.

The Bible is the great standard of right and wrong, clearly defining sin and holiness. Its living principles, running through our lives like threads of gold, are our only safeguard in trial and temptation.

The Bible is a chart, showing us the waymarks of truth. Those who are acquainted with this chart will be enabled to tread with certainty in the path of duty, wherever they may be called to go.

The Bible contains a simple and complete system of theology and philosophy. It is the book that makes us wise unto salvation. It tells us how to reach the abode of eternal happiness. It tells us of the love of God as shown in the plan of redemption, imparting the knowledge essential for all,--the knowledge of Christ."


These are just a few items for starters.

Old Timer to the Maritime forums.

As it has been a while since I read this thread, I will probably need to read it again from the beginning.

We had Jeff Pippenger at our Maritime Campmeeting several years ago as one of our guest speakers, thus the reason for my interest in this thread and for the continuance of it.

The understanding of the Seven Thunders is required understanding for each and every Seventh Day Adventist. Spirit of Prophecy Quote:

Whatever may be man's intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of the Scriptures for greater light. As a people, we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought before others. {CW 41.1}

So if the Lord is calling us to be students of prophecy, is that optional? The command of the Lord and the will of the Lord should be our focus. We must obey for only through obeying the Lords command can we be sanctified. SOP quote:

Jesus Christ is our example in all things. He began life, passed through its experiences, and ended its record, with a sanctified human will. He was tempted in all points like as we are, and yet because he kept his will surrendered and sanctified, he never bent in the slightest degree toward the doing of evil, or toward manifesting rebellion against God. Have men and women who profess to be followers of Christ, been simply gratifying their own tastes, been confirming themselves in selfishness, in obstinacy, simply living to gratify their carnal propensities? Those who persist in living in this way will at some time in their experience become offended by the truth presented from the word of God. They cannot be one with Christ or abide in him, because they refuse the terms upon which salvation is provided. They do not wear Christ's yoke or lift Christ's burden; for they will not learn of him meekness and lowliness of heart. Those who have a sanctified will, that is in unison with the will of Christ, will day by day have their wills bound to the will of Christ, which will act in blessing others, and react upon themselves with divine power. Many cultivate those things which war against the soul; for their desires and their will are set against God, and employed in the service of Satan. {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 7}

So going back to the seven thunders. This mystery was to be sealed until just before the close of probation, for the only item specified in the book of Revelation to be sealed, are the seven thunders. Bible quote:

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Now are the seven thunders to be sealed forever? Is there a purpose to them? Just before the close of probation, the command is given to not seal them any longer. Bible Quote:

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

In the following verse 11 you see the close of probation, so before the close of probation, verse 10, we have a command to not seal, therefore to the student of prophecy (which we are all required to be, see first quote) this understanding will be revealed.

Are the books of Daniel and Revelation related? SOP Quote:

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. {7BC 971.5}

If the books of Daniel and Revelation are one, then there must be a relationship between one and the other. And if this is true, does the book of Daniel specify anything about an increase of knowledge in the end? Bible quote:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So at the "the time of the end" there will be an increase of knowledge according to Daniel. And the book of Revelation agrees! Just before the close of probation there is unsealing of the seven thunders or an increase of knowledge on what they are. These two books are in perfect agreement just as the Lord has designed.

So what are the Seven Thunders?

So first we see that when the seven thunders were first uttered was during the proclamation of the first and second angels message.

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {7BC 971.6}

We are clearly told by the spirit of prophecy that the proclamation of the first and second angels message was given between 1840-44:

The truths that we received in 1841, ‘42, ‘43, and ‘44 are now to be studied and proclaimed. The messages of the first, second, and third angels will in the future be proclaimed with a loud voice. They will be given with earnest determination and in the power of the Spirit. Manuscript Releases, volume 15, 371.

All the messages given from 1840–1844 are to be made forcible now, for there are many people who have lost their bearings. The messages are to go to all the churches. Manuscript Releases, volume 21, 437

So what does 1840 through 1844 have to do us now at the time of the end?

After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. {7BC 971.4}

So not only were the seven thunders uttered and did there work between 1840 through 1844 but at the time of the end or just before the close of probation the seven thunders will be disclosed in their order!

And who exactly uttered the seven thunders? Bible quote:

Revelation 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

And spirit of prophecy:

The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy had waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth. {7BC 971.3}

So the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ himself uttered the seven thunders, and when He roars like a Lion, He is showing His power and authority.

The seven thunders were uttered between 1840-44 and will be repeated or disclosed again at the end of time just before the close of probation.

Now I'm going to stop here for a very important reason.

The pen of inspiration has told us in the following quote:

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events . . . {7BC 971.6}

The seven thunders are "events". Has the Lord given us any special light or warnings regarding "events" for the end time? SOP quote:

So in the prophecies the future is opened before us as plainly as it was opened to the disciples by the words of Christ. The events connected with the close of probation and the work of preparation for the time of trouble, are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed. Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready. {GC 594.1}
When God sends to men warnings so important that they are represented as proclaimed by holy angels flying in the midst of heaven, He requires every person endowed with reasoning powers to heed the message. The fearful judgments denounced against the worship of the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9-11), should lead all to a diligent study of the prophecies to learn what the mark of the beast is, and how they are to avoid receiving it. But the masses of the people turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. The apostle Paul declared, looking down to the last days: "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:3. That time has fully come. The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love. {GC 594.2}

Satan is doing everything in his power so that we might not understand these important events proclaimed by Jesus Christ Himself as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Now, is it a small thing to go against the Word of God?

These important events are salvational! The understanding of the SEVEN THUNDERS is SALVATIONAL! and they "are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed."

Brothers and Sisters, I pray that you might understand the importance of the light that God has given.

Just a quick recap, the seven thunders occurred during the proclamation of the first and second angels message (period of 1840 - 1844) and the events will be disclosed in the future just before the close of probation.

Does inspiration tell us anywhere else that this period between 1840-1844 is going to be repeated or fulfilled to the very letter?

I'm not going to put the whole chapter here but in chapter 22 of GC titled Prophecies Fulfilled, the pen of inspiration lets us know that the parable of the 10 virgins was fulfilled during the millerite time period completing in 1844.

Then we are told. SOP quote:

This parable has been and will be fulfilled to the very letter, for it has a special application to this time, and, like the third angel's message, has been fulfilled and will continue to be present truth till the close of time. {RH, August 19, 1890 par. 3}

So not only do the seven thunders teach us that the millerite time period will be repeated, but the parable of the 10 virgins was fulfilled during the same time period and will be "fulfilled to the very letter" again.

Also if you have the understanding that Revelation 10 talks about the millerite time period (you can read in {CTr 340.1}) at the end of Revelation 10 it says, Bible quote:

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

The Lord is telling us that these things must happen again.

I left the greatest and best evidence for last.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John on the isle of Patmos to His servants, the students of prophecy, what is the primary and most important characteristic which the Lord repeats of Himself?

("The Lord does not repeat things that are of no great consequence."--Ms 107, 1897, pp. 1, 2)

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

And what does this mean that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The pleasure of the God, declaring the end from the beginning. If you read from Isaiah 40 onward the Lord explains this characteristic of Himself declaring what will occur at the end by what he has declared from the beginning. Bible quote:

Ecclesiastes 1:9 ¶ The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

For the student of prophecy, the greatest tool that the Lord has given his people for the understanding of Revelation is, that He declares the end from the beginning.

So when were the beginnings of Adventism? When were the foundations and platform of The Seventh Day Adventist Church Laid? Because if were are to believe Christ, to understand the Seven Thunders or The End of Adventism we have to go back to the beginning of Adventism.

And when we do, we will have an understanding of the 'events' which Satan is so desperately trying stop us from learning. But the Lion of the Tribe of Judah will prevail with the faithful servants who do HIs Will. SOP quote:

The warning has come: Nothing is to be allowed to come in that will disturb the foundation of the faith upon which we have been building ever since the message came in 1842, 1843, and 1844. I was in this message, and ever since I have been standing before the world, true to the light that God has given us. We do not propose to take our feet off the platform on which they were placed as day by day we sought the Lord with earnest prayer, seeking for light. Do you think that I could give up the light that God has given me? It is to be as the Rock of Ages. It has been guiding me ever since it was given. {GCB, April 6, 1903 par. 35}

I pray that you now have somewhat of an understanding of what the Seven Thunders represents, simply put, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ, Declaring the end from the beginning, which for us, is, there are 'seven thunders' or 'events' which will be repeated at the end and Satan is trying to prevent any which way he can to stop us from learning this understanding.

Lord willing, next will try to explain why or what Islam has to do with all this. SOP quote:

There are periods which are turning points in the history of nations and of the church. In the providence of God, when these different crises arrive, the light for that time is given. If it is received, there is spiritual progress; if it is rejected, spiritual declension and shipwreck follow. {BEcho, August 26, 1895 par. 11}

lco,

Thank you for posting your studies here. They are thought provoking. I would like to look at them in more detail when I have more time. It does make some sense to my logical mind that the thunders would be discernible to those who study carefully and with the Holy Spirit's help. Otherwise, why would they have been mentioned at all? The Bible has no vestigial organs.

to the forum!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Welcome Ico. I agree that the seven thunders are events. Would you mind sharing your list of the seven when you have a moment. Personally, I think they're still sealed because the Mighty Angel's stance on the sea and land indicating a global enlightenment is still future. But if you could briefly tell me why you think they're unsealed along with your list, that would be great.

Happy Sabbath,

Hello brothers, I will be getting to the seven thunders, but it seems wise to put some more evidence before getting there. I pray that you will see why this is best.

Upon the testimony of two or three a thing is established -

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1

And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. Genesis 41:32

Upon the testimony of the bible and the spirit of prophecy, it is clear that the seven thunders are:

1 - events

2 - have already occurred once during the millerite time period (time period of the first and second angels message)

3 - and SOP and the bible clearly reveal that they will occur again

Not going to put the whole first chapter of GC here, but it is important how this book begins. Here we see Jesus crying, but this is, "not of ordinary grief, but of intense, irrepressible agony" - Would recommend reading the whole chapter.

"If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." Luke 19:42-44. {GC 17.1}
From the crest of Olivet, Jesus looked upon Jerusalem. Fair and peaceful was the scene spread out before Him. It was the season of the Passover, and from all lands the children of Jacob had gathered there to celebrate the great national festival. In the midst of gardens and vineyards, and green slopes studded with pilgrims' tents, rose the terraced hills, the stately palaces, and massive bulwarks of Israel's capital. The daughter of Zion seemed in her pride to say, I sit a queen and shall see no sorrow; as lovely then, and deeming herself as secure in Heaven's favor, as when, ages before, the royal minstrel sang: "Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion, . . . the city of the great King." Psalm 48:2. In full view were the magnificent buildings of the temple. The rays of the setting sun lighted up the snowy whiteness of its marble walls and gleamed from golden gate and tower and pinnacle. "The perfection of beauty" it stood, the pride of the Jewish nation. What child of Israel could gaze upon the scene without a thrill of joy and admiration! But far other thoughts occupied the mind of Jesus. "When He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it." Luke 19:41. Amid the universal rejoicing of the triumphal entry, while palm branches waved, while glad hosannas awoke the echoes of the hills, and thousands of voices declared Him king, the world's Redeemer was overwhelmed with a sudden and mysterious sorrow. He, the Son of God, the Promised One of Israel, whose power had conquered death and called its captives from the grave, was in tears, not of ordinary grief, but of intense, irrepressible agony. {GC 17.2}

The jews were about to be swept away in a very grotesque way, all because they did not know the day of their visitation. They were required to study the prophecies, so they might know.

Are we required to know the day of our visitation? Later on in GC Sister White tells us that words can not describe what is about to befall us.

In DA, we are told that the Gospel is based on prophecy, so can we proclaim the gospel without prophecy? Is it any wonder then, that the Lord in his infinite wisdom declared the surest portion of His Word, is prophecy! Bible quote:

2Peter 1:19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

And the increase of knowledge is, SOP quote:

There were men and women who were eagerly seeking for knowledge, the sure word of prophecy, and when it came, it was as a light shining in a dark place.” Spalding Magan, 58.

So the jews did not heed the warning clearly laid out in prophecy, but the more important question now is will we? Again SOP quote:

The events connected with the close of probation and the work of preparation for the time of trouble, are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed. Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready. {GC 594.1}

If they are clearly presented, where should we look for them? Because we have been told through the bible and sop that we are laodiceans and we are blind. So how can a blind people see? Bible quote:

1Samuel 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Brothers, we must trust in the prophets, for it is through them that the Lord GOD will reveal that which satan is trying to keep from us. We will see through the prophets.

So John the Revelator has told us that Christ is the First and The Last, The Alpha and the Omega. He teaches us what is going to happen at the end by what happened at the beginning. And SOP:


“Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. ‘Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.’ 1 Corinthians 10:11. ‘Not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.’ 1 Peter 1:12. . . .
“The Bible has accumulated and bound up together its treasures for this last generation. All the great events and solemn transactions of Old Testament history have been, and are, repeating themselves in the church in these last days.” Selected Messages, book 3, 338–339

This is critical to understand, this characteristic of Christ. It is absolutely essential to the student of prophecy to clearly believe and have an understanding of this. If not what is the point of reading the ancient truths? Would dare say, that if you reject this truth, you are rejecting Christ Himself.

SOP quote:

The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity in every great reformation or religious movement. The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same. The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time. {GC88 343.1}

Going to stop here to emphasize the importance of this last quote.

Old Timer, you posted above that Bro. Jeff is practicing Gnosticism. From what I can see Pippenger, unlike the example you cite, is still grounded in Ellen White’s writings. We all have our own views. Gnosticism takes personal knowledge to an extreme in teaching that certain secret knowledge is essential and subtly superimposing the notion that only those initiated into this enlightened understanding are truly enlightened. I agree though that Bro. Jeff has many supporters who are indiscrete in their praise of him and that’s likely had a negative effect.

I thought I’d give an overview of the development of Brother Jeff’s prophetic understanding. Pippenger has spent a good part of his life expounding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, especially Daniel 11:40 to 45 and more recently the sixth trumpet of Revelation 9-11 which he applies to 9/11. No doubt these were important events in world history, but do they fulfill prophecy?

In the early 90’s Pippenger began teaching that the fall of communism was a fulfillment of Daniel 11:40. Some conservative Adventist bible students, notably Hope International, reviewed his material and concluded he may be right. They published a series of his articles on the topic. But no consensus was reached among conservative Adventists on the issue and when after 9/11 Bro Jeff started to apply the sixth trumpet to the destruction of the twin towers on 9/11/01 by Islamic terrorists most conservative Adventists rejected his interpretation. Since then there have been efforts among conservatives to dialogue and reconcile differences but the gap between Pippenger and conservative Adventism has widened.

Pippenger’s lens for viewing all prophetic interpretation is the long held Adventist belief that there can be no literal reapplications of the trumpets or seals or any time elements of the prophecies. I empathize with him a great deal. On one hand he can see that the world is on the verge of its final great conflict and the return of Christ. He senses the urgency of the situation and the great need of God’s people for prophetic guidance. But he has accepted and bound himself by the view that none of the prophecies, especially their time elements, can be reapplied.

Whereas some conservative Adventists allow for the possibility the prophecies could be repeated so long as all time elements are removed, Pippenger is more thorough going. He believes that if a prophecy can’t be repeated in full, it can’t be repeated. In my view that position is better and more consistent than the view that a prophecy can be reapplied with the time elements removed. Either a prophecy applies to the future, all of it, or it doesn’t. Prophecy can’t be laundered. It has to be accepted as is.

Below I’ll look briefly at his two main teachings and at how his assumptions have shaped his teaching and whether those assumptions are sound.

The Fall of Communism
Students of prophecy are aware that for the last 120 years most Adventists have accepted Uriah Smith’s interpretation applying the king of the south in the last part of Daniel 11 to atheistic, revolutionary France. Pippenger builds on that view and modifies it by applying the same symbol to atheistic, revolutionary Communism. I respectfully disagree and suggest here that Daniel 11:40 is still future where the conflict between the Kings of the South and North refers to a literal battle(s), possibly the physical side of the Battle of Armageddon, which now appears to be shaping into an East-West conflict.

Pippenger in this context interprets the King of North as John Paul II allied with Ronald Regan. In my view, the references in verses 40 to 45 to the King of the North are better applied to the future workings of the image-beast of the second half of Revelation 13 rather than to Regan and the Pope.

Adventists agree that the image-beast is the last beast of prophecy. It is through the influence of Protestant America that the image-beast will be erected and worshipped. The ten kings of Revelation 17 are said to give their power to this beast for a short time. Ellen White identifies these ten kings as the Protestant churches of America.

9/11

Ellen White makes a number of statements on the future application of the seals and trumpets which I’ve posted here on other threads. If these are taken at face value as they should be, then all seven trumpets and seals have future applications. Whether brother Jeff is right or wrong on his application of the sixth trumpet to 9/11, the main application is still future when all seven trumpets sound and all seven seals are unsealed. Some of his material may be helpful in understanding how that trumpet, the sixth, will unfold. Unfortunately though, in his application of this prophecy to 9/11, Brother Pippenger has begun making his interpretation a test of faith and is drawing parallels from sacred history that aren’t always sustained by Scripture. Why does he do that?

In my view, it’s not that Pippenger is a poor Bible student. He is a good one. The reason for his parallelisms is because, while his approach doesn’t allow direct, literal reapplication of prophecy it does allow ‘parallels.’ Pippenger has avoided being branded as a futurist by some, but forged his own unique future applications by ‘parallelisms’. Before joining his ranks, I suggest that a person would want to investigate carefully whether Brother Pippenger’s underlying assumption – no future literal application of time prophecies – is well founded.

Revelation 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The whole Bible is a revelation; for all revelation to men comes through Christ, and all centers in Him. God has spoken unto us by His Son, whose we are by creation and by redemption. Christ came to John exiled on the Isle of Patmos to give him the truth for these last days, to show him that which must shortly come to pass. Jesus Christ is the great trustee of divine revelation. It is through Him that we have a knowledge of what we are to look for in the closing scenes of this earth's history. God gave this revelation to Christ, and Christ communicated the same to John. {7BC 953.7}
John, the beloved disciple, was the one chosen to receive this revelation. He was the last survivor of the first chosen disciples. Under the New Testament dispensation he was honored as the prophet Daniel was honored under the Old Testament dispensation. {7BC 953.8}
The instruction to be communicated to John was so important that Christ came from heaven to give it to His servant, telling him to send it to the churches. This instruction is to be the object of our careful and prayerful study; for we are living in a time when men who are not under the teaching of the Holy Spirit will bring in false theories. These men have been standing in high places, and they have ambitious projects to carry out. They seek to exalt themselves, and to revolutionize the whole showing of things. God has given us special instruction to guard us against such ones. He bade John write in a book that which should take place in the closing scenes of this earth's history (MS 129, 1905). {7BC 953.9}

Christ Himself, roared as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and when he roared, seven thunders uttered their voices.

And when Christ describes His character for the student of prophecy, He tells us that He teaches what will happen at the end by what happened at the beginning, The Alpha and The Omega.

The seven thunders are a delineation of events that occurred during the millerite time period and will again be repeated.

At the beginning of Adventism and at the end of Adventism.

What was the purpose of their sealing? Surely their must be a purpose to that!

Have we not read already that the millerites were going through a testing process? SOP quote:

It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. {7BC 971.6}

Sure enough! so if the seven thunders were sealed up after the millerite time period, is not the purpose of the sealing to test us!

Of course! remember Daniel and Revelation are one book and in Daniel chapter 12 we see the test come to us. Bible quote:

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

So there is going to come a time when knowledge will be increased, but the wicked (or the tares) will not understand, and the wise will understand. But not only that, SOP quote:

. . . they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. RH May 27, 1890.

So just as the injuction comes to John, it comes to Daniel, the knowledge is sealed up till the time of the end.

But now we know were to look for the seven thunders. Have we not received light directly from the Word of God were to find the increase of knowledge? Is this not the characteristic of Christ that we must understand in order to receive the light on the seven thunders?

We must go back to the old paths and search, The First and The Last has spoken it, and who dares challenge His authority. Is it not satan, the serpent, the great deceiver who is trying to hide that truth from us? Bring doubt on our foundations? Does not satan have his minions doing his work to stop us from following a direct command from Christ Himself?

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Isaiah 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. {7BC 971.6}

Upon the testimony of two or three a thing is established in the Word of God.

And a fourth testimony SOP quote:

The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity in every great reformation or religious movement. The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same. The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time. {GC88 343.1}

And there are more, but the evidence is beyond clear.

So now as we have just discussed, were not the millerites tested? were not the jews tested? Are we going to be tested? Yes, yes and yes. Bible quote:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Would not the Lord, in his mercy let us know when the testing time begins? The Lord will honor His Word.

Now simple logic will suffice. What event occured during the time period of the jews and the time period of Jesus, that marked the beginning of the testing period? What event marked the beginning of the testing period during the millerite time period? Because if we can establish that, if we can identify an event that precedes the testing time period, can we not with the authority of Christ Himself say that our testing time period has begun? Is this not the characteristic of Christ, to let us know from ancient times? SOP quote:

The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity . . .

. . . God's dealing with men are ever the same . . .

movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, . . .

. . . the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time. {GC88 343.1}

Bible quote:

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 4:1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Revelation 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Revelation 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Revelation 18:1 ¶ And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
Daniel 10:15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
Daniel 10:16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
Daniel 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
Daniel 10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
Daniel 10:19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Here see the signature of Christ, The Alpha and The Omega, The First and The Last, doing His pleasure, declaring the end from the beginning, from ancient times, roaring as the Lion of The Tribe of Judah.

When the testing time came in the period of the jews and Jesus, a Heavenly being came down marking the beginning of that time period, and Jesus first went out to be tested, and then Jesus tested the jews with his message.

When the millerite testing period began (for we are told clearly that they were tested during the period of the seven thunders) The Angel of Revelation 10 came down, a Heavenly being marking the beginning of the testing period, and most assuredly they were tested.

And for us, upon the testimony of two or three a thing is established, when the Angel of Revelation 18 came down our testing time began.

The seven thunders relate to the beginning of Adventism and the end of Adventism.

On August 11, 1840 the prophecy of Revelation 9:15 was fulfilled (see GC 334-335)

On September 11, 2001 the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:9-11, Revelation 9:11, Testimonies volume 9 page 11, Zephaniah 1:16, Review and Herald July 5, 1906 par. 14, all pointing to this point in time. The evidence is overwhelming!

There are periods which are turning points in the history of nations and of the church. In the providence of God, when these different crises arrive, the light for that time is given. If it is received, there is spiritual progress; if it is rejected, spiritual declension and shipwreck follow. {BEcho, August 26, 1895 par. 11}

Ask any person in the world if September 11 was not a turning point in the history of the world. We as a people have been given more light than any other people in the history of the world. Yet what does Jeremiah tell us Bible quote:

Jeremiah 6:17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

So how does the trumpet relate to August 11th 1840 and September 11th 2001. Will give the evidence in the following post but will leave with this SOP quote:

"How comes the word that I have declared that New York is to be swept away by a tidal wave? This I have never said. I have said, as I looked at the great buildings going up there, story after story, 'What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! Then the words of Revelation 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.' The whole of the eighteenth chapter of Revelation is a warning of what is coming on the earth. But I have no light in particular in regard to what is coming on New York, only that I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power. From the light given me, I know that destruction is in the world. One word from the Lord, one touch of his mighty power, and these massive structures will fall. Scenes will take place the fearfulness of which we can not imagine. {RH, July 5, 1906 par. 14}

If you have ever seen or studied the New York skyline, there were only two buildings in all of New York that stood out above and beyond all the other buildings, only two. There are hundreds of buildings in New York, but only two were greater than all the others. And those great buildings came down, and when they came down, Revelation 18:1-3 is fulfilled and what does Revelation 18:1 say? Bible quote:

Revelation 18:1 ¶ And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

So a Heavenly being came down, just like in the time period of Jesus, the time period of the millerites, and now in our time period. And the testing time began.

Ico, let's look at that idea for a moment - the idea that a heavenly being came down on 9/11.

In the parallels you cite, the start of Christ's ministry and the attention given to the millerite message after August 11, 1840, in those cases the public in general was challenged with a fuller revelation of truth. In contrast Pippenger's views are directed at and appeal to a narrow segment of Adventism rather than to the public.

I never read Jeff Pippenger but know that Mark is able to be objective and bring a good summary. I can see many in the church having the "fear" to be label as dissenter and refuse to see that Dan 12 and most Prophecies in Revelation are futur for EGW has said this in just a few passages, and it conflicts with past interpretations of those scriptures.

I really have a problem and see a great danger in believing in multiple fulfillment of prophecies. I have expressed that opinion with reasons in the "EGW a Futurist" topic.

Christ Speaking in Rev 10 & Dan 12

One thing to note about Rev 10 and the 7 thunders, is in verse 5 & 6 we have a picture of an angel standing and swearing there will be time no more. I believe this angel is Christ. What he says in rev 5&6 is very similar to Dan 12:7. I believe Dan:7 and Rev 5&6 is the same prophetic element having Christ speaking also in Dan 12.



Christ Speaking(Thundering) about the End Time





What is the 7 Thunder ABout?
Notice what was Christ thundering about and when the 7 thunders finish? In red we see that the thundering is relating to the "Mystery of God".

When is the 7 Thunder going to be finish?
And I believe the thundering will be finishing at the beginning of the sound of the 7th trumpet as shown in verse 7. That's when the close of probation takes place.

What is the "Mystery of God"
And what is the "mystery of God" is Christ in you = born again = New birth = the "last" but the "greatest" harvest that's going to take place during the end time.

To whom the 7 Thunders are declared
Highlighted in Blue, notice that these 7 thunders are declared to the servants the prophets.

What is declared to the Servants the Prophets?
Things relating to the "mystery of God" which is Christ in you, which is the Gospel message.

Who are the Servants the Prophets?
I believe it is the 144K that are sealed before the trumpets starts to sound. They will deliver the last message. They will prophesy again of the coming of Christ with judgment. They will be given the 7 thunders from Christ directly during the sealing.

The sealing is happening now, brothers and sisters. The 7 thunders are being given to those who are sitting at the feet of Jesus and learning only from him. 1Jn 2:27

Mrs. White repeatedly speaks of prophecies and history being repeated, Elle. Like this statement in Testimonies to Ministers:


She is saying that the "history" of Revelation and Daniel are to be repeated. That "history" was prophecy of the future at one time.

Here are some more of her statements relating to repeated fulfillments of prophecy.


Mrs. White points out multiple instances of Christ having intended double meaning to His words. If Jesus would make statements in person which hold double meaning, why would He not also, by His Spirit, express things through the prophets with double meaning as well? Jesus' words on multiple occasions were to be twice fulfilled in prophecy.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Thanks Green for your reply. I understand that EGW says that, but does the Bible say that. Does the Bible say that prophecies are to have multiple applications? We had discussed about that in the other thread and you failed to supply proof from the Bible.

This is a very solemn subject, I pray that you all ask for the Holy Spirit for understanding on this very important subject.

Let us be clear first of what we do know and what has been overwhelmingly revealed to us.

1 - The Seven Thunders are events, there are things associated with the events, but we must first acknowledge this without doubt or question. Please read the previously posted quotes, I do not want to post all that again.

2 - The testing came to God's people first. It doesn't matter where you look, whether in Ezekiel, Revelation, Matthew, EGW, God's people are always tested first. Period, there is no way the rest of the world will be tested before the Seventh Adventist People are tested. This is another subject that can be taken at another time.

3 - Time is no longer after October 22, 1844

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Does Christ need to sware?, but here He does to emphasize there are no more time prophecies. It is amazing how many of the popular adventist evangelist and are re-applying time prophecies. Brothers and sisters, do not be fooled by false teachers, Christ Himself declared this important fact.

There are prophecies waiting to be fulfilled, but they can not be time prophecies, 1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

4 - And lastly, regarding does the bible say that prophecies have multiple applications? Absolutely, please read the previous post on Christ The First and The Last, The Alpha and The Omega.

But not only that and this is what is incredible and amazing about the Word of God, is that all the writing of the ancient prophets have more weight and more meaning for our time than the time that they were writing! That's right, the primary focus of their writing was for us! So that we could know what was going to happen in our time. This is stunning!


“Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. ‘Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.’ 1 Corinthians 10:11. ‘Not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.’ 1 Peter 1:12. . . .
“The Bible has accumulated and bound up together its treasures for this last generation. All the great events and solemn transactions of Old Testament history have been, and are, repeating themselves in the church in these last days.” Selected Messages, book 3, 338–339.


ENSAMPLES: 5179. tupos, too-pos; from 5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by impl.) a stamp or scar; by anal. a shape, i.e. a statue, (fig.) style or resemblance; spec. a sampler (“type”), i.e. model (for imitation) or instance (for warning):—en. (ex.) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print. The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.


“These men of the Old Testament spoke of things transpiring in their day, and Daniel, Isaiah, and Ezekiel not only spoke of things that concerned them as present truth, but their sights reached down to the future, and to what should occur in these last days.” Selected Messages, book 3, 419–420.

This is Jesus Christ Himself revealing this important truth at the end. And where does He do this?

Right there in the first chapter of Revelation, the Revelation of The Lion of The Tribe of Judah, Roaring, but will you hear?

Welcome to the forum 1co. To tell you a little about where I stand, I only base my belief and understanding of doctrines and prophecies on the Bible alone and the teaching of Christ throught His Spirit. I think highly of Ellen White, but I will not use her writings to understand prophecies or doctrines.

Yes, I agree.



That could be so, or it may not be so. The book of Revelation and Daniel already is filled with prophesies marking events. So, since the voice of God was associated with the word Thunder in Rev 10; then I'm more incline to think it may be associated with the Lost Gospel Truth.

If you look at how the word thunder when associated with God's voice in the Bible, it is not frequently associated with events. Events might accompany it, but the main thrust of the usage is to declare something or to convict the heart.

Here's is the usage of thunder and thundering in the Bible:

In the OT there's two words used for thunder

H6963 that means "to call out", a voice, or a sound. which is primairly translated as voice 383x(times), and only used as thunder 10 times and thundering 2 times.

This is the context it was used
- in the plague of hail & fire & Thunder, Ex 9:23,28,29...
- Thunder + lightning : To proclaim the 10Commandments EX 19:16; 20:18
- in a war to discomfort the Philistines 1Sa7:10
- thunder + rain : to convict the Israelites of their sins when they ask for a King 1Sa 12:17
- For God to utter His voice : 2Sa 22:14; Ps 29:3; 18:13; 77:18; Job 37:4,5; 40:9;

H7482 only mean thunder as we understand thunder and differ in meaning from H6963, despite both can have the same sound of thunder especially for an fearful unbeliever. However, H6963 the sound is associated with the voice of God which carries forth conviction and impression on the heart to the unbeliever.

The NT usage of Thundering is less descriptive as a definition.

G1027 means "to roar" used thunder 8x, thundering 4x

A. In the gospel, it was used when the Father uttered His voice of delight when Jesus was baptized, and at the transfiguration.

B. What's interesting in the NT is the usage of Thunder(G1027) in Revelation

Rev 4:5 : Thunder and Lightning and Voices proceeded from the throne of God
Rev 6:1 : To announce the opening of the 1st Seal
Rev 8:5 : To mark when the censer cast on earth
Rev 10:3 : The 7 Thunders
Rev 11:19 : To mark the 7th Trumpet Sound
Rev 14:2 : To mark the sealing of the 144K
Rev 16:18 : After the 7th bowl is poured
Rev 19: 6 : The voices of the great multitude in heaven

Yes I agree that we're going to be tested first, however, I now understand the "testing" differently now. But again it's another discussion.

As what relates to the 7 Thunders of Rev 10, I believe the testing is now. By the time the 7 thunders are completly uttered, the test will be over and God will have sealed His servants the Prophets with the 7 thunders and will go and make the mystery of God known to the world.

God is declaring his 7 Thunders TODAY to His servants the Prophets(144K)and seeling them with it, before they start proclaiming the good news for 1260 days during the time of tribulation found in Dn 12 and Rev 11, and other places.

Study Is 29:1-8 which seems to relate to this event.



1co, Christ is not swearing that their's no more time prophecies here. That's not what is written.

It is written "that there should be time no longer".

Time no longer for what?

The answer is found in the next verse: when he shall begin to sound (the 7th trumpet)"the mystery of God should be finish, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

(I don't know if you are SDA or not but) The Seven Thunders are extremely fascinating, what we are discussing here is just the intro, barely scratching the surface. As you dig deeper, it becomes more and more amazing.

Upon the testimony of two or three, a thing is established. Because God established it. Jesus said this of Himself, so even He applied this rule to Himself.

Does God have a chosen people on earth, denominated peculiar distinct from the rest? Yes it's the Seventh Day Adventist. Did He make a covenant with them? Yes and He gave us a name. What is one of the things that establishes us as the true chosen people of God? The testimony of Christ. If we do not have the testimony of Christ, The Spirit of Prophecy, then we are a false church, because it is one of the requirements for Gods people.

This is one of the clearest truths in the bible, rejecting the SOP is rejecting Christ Himself because when He roars, what is the roar? It is prophecy, the sure word of prophecy. Gods church must have a prophet.

I'm not even going to give a quote here, because I'd have to quote just about the entire bible. Well maybe just one quote, ". . . where there is no vision, the people parish . . ." Prov. 29:18

One more thing, we are the only people who are going to understand the seven thunders, as a people, because it is only through the SOP that you can remove that seal. This will be clearer down the line, a little patience. I know of a few non-adventist that are understanding this message, but very few. We on the other hand, are required to understand this. It is part of our DNA, it is our foundation.

Yes I am SDA, nearly 3 decades attending every Sabbath! I'm very well familiar with our doctrines, our prophetic believes, our spiritual condition, etc... recently started to take EGW counsel to study my Bible seriously and test all beliefs.


Our brothers and sisters are dying not because of "lack of vision" but because we have married the world, we have compromised on truth, we let our men and woman being taught by man and not by Christ(read the spiritual formation thread), we let an "organization" be the head of our Church, etc... I could elaborate more but will stop there.


Well, I hope you can back up what you say with the Bible. I don't believe that you can remove the seal with the SOP. It will be ONLY through Christ Jesus' direct teachings. You are making the SOP a replacement of your dear teacher, Christ. 1Jn2:27, Jer 31:34; Jn 6:45, 1Co 2:10; Mic 4:2 Ellen White said at a few places that she didn't understand Daniel 12 and that book was sealed to her and that there was much more light to obtain. Daniel 12 and Rev 10 are talking about the same prophecy and one shed light on the other.

1co I will wait for your answer of my comments of your obvious facts #1, #2, #3, before letting you know what I think of your #4.

Elle,

Do you replace your "dear teacher, Christ" with the writings of the apostle Paul or the apostle John?

If so, why? If not, why not?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This is saying that there is Scripture that can only be understood by means of the SOP? I don't think we believe, as a church, believe this to be the case. That is, I believe that we explicitly teach the converse, that's it's not necessary to believe in the SOP to understand the Bible. EGW herself wrote that God, in His mercy, gave a prophet because the Bible was not being read and studied as it ought, and that if it had been, her office would not have been necessary. That, in itself, implies that it's possible to understand the Bible without her writings.

Tom,

That is true. However, having ordained Ellen White as a prophet, don't you think that God would share with us additional truths through her that were not otherwise possible for us to understand in the Bible? I agree that Ellen White helps us understand the Bible. I just think that she also gives us some extra-biblical truths of special interest to us in these last days. Of special note, many of her messages relating to health fall into this category.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I've been wondering about the final week of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 for a quarter century - does it have an end-time application? Is this the final invitation that the Jews rejected going to be given to the world in 1260 days. The language is similar to the Day of Atonement - atone for iniquity, bring an end to sins, bring in everlasting righteousness. If there's no thread on that topic, maybe we should open one.

That comment seems off topic, but Ico's parallels to the 1260 day ministry of Christ and the 3.5 years +- of Millerite revival stimilated my thinking regarding Daniel 9.

Students of Prophecy
“Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of the Scriptures for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy.” Testimonies, volume 5, 708.

What is one of the ways the Lord has defined Prophecy?

“Historical events, showing the direct fulfillment of prophecy, were set before the people, and the prophecy was seen to be a figurative delineation of events leading down to the close of this earth’s history.” Selected Messages, book 2, 101–102.


Waymarks

“God speaks in his word, and fulfills this word in the world. We need now to seek to understand the movements of God’s providence. Said Paul, ‘Ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night nor of darkness.’ God’s people are not left to depend on man’s wisdom. With prophetic guideposts God has marked out the way he wishes them to take. These great waymarks show us that the path of obedience is the only path we can follow with certainty. Men break their word, and prove themselves untrustworthy, but God changes not. His word will abide the same forever.” Review and Herald, February 6, 1900.


“Today Satan is seeking opportunities to tear down the waymarks of truth,—the monuments that have been raised up along the way; and we need the experience of the aged workers who have built their house upon the solid rock, who through evil report as well as good report have been steadfast to the truth.” Gospel Workers, 104.


“Our faith in reference to the messages of the first, second, and third angels was correct. The great waymarks we have passed are immovable. Although the hosts of hell may try to tear them from their foundation, and triumph in the thought that they have succeeded, yet they do not succeed. These pillars of truth stand firm as the eternal hills, unmoved by all the efforts of men combined with those of Satan and his host. We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so.” Evangelism, 223.


“The great waymarks of truth, showing us our bearings in prophetic history, are to be carefully guarded, lest they be torn down, and replaced with theories that would bring confusion rather than genuine light.” Selected Messages, book 2, 101–102.

“At this time many efforts will be made to unsettle our faith in the sanctuary question; but we must not waver. Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories, and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old waymarks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings.” Manuscript Releases, volume 1, 55.

“Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority.” Counsels to Writers and Editors, 52.


“We should study the great waymarks that point out the times in which we are living.” Last Day Events, 14.


“Brethren and sisters, my faith is as strong as ever that the things of this world are about to close. It is stronger than when I saw you last. We can see the waymarks that are all along the way. When we are traveling along a road alone, and see a guide board; if we can read we know that we are at such a place; so it is if our minds are active and so consecrated to God that we can understand His workings, we can know just where we are in this world’s history. Things we spoke of 25 years ago are just working up. The powers of darkness are working with an intensity from within, but God has been working for us, and He will work for us that Christ shall not have died in vain, that we may have of the life that runs parallel with the life of Jehovah. It is this little, little atom of a world that is absorbing all our force.
“Is there not something that will have a reviving influence on [our] lives? Should we not study the Word of God, and when duty is made known, meet every objection to it with a ‘thus saith the Lord’? Should we not search out the truths that are clustered about the truths of God? We have no time to fold our hands, brethren; the Lord is soon coming, and we have heard the note of warning till we have consoled ourselves and a sleep has taken hold of us, of the life and the character. There is nothing about us to show the world that we have the most sacred truth that has ever been given to man.
“We want to know where we are in history.” Sermons and Talks, 48, 49.
Past History to be Brought Before the People
“The dealings of God with His people should be often repeated. How frequently were the waymarks set up by the Lord in His dealings with ancient Israel! Lest they should forget the history of the past, He commanded Moses to frame these events into song, that parents might teach them to their children. They were to gather up memorials and to lay them up in sight. Special pains were taken to preserve them, that when the children should inquire concerning these things, the whole story might be repeated. Thus the providential dealings and the marked goodness and mercy of God in His care and deliverance of His people were kept in mind. We are exhorted to ‘call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions.’ Hebrews 10:32. For His people in this generation the Lord has wrought as a wonder-working God. The past history of the cause of God needs to be often brought before the people, young and old. We need often to recount God’s goodness and to praise Him for His wonderful works.” Testimonies, volume 6, 364, 365.

So why is it so important to study the past histories in the bible? What is it in these prophetic lines that satan is trying to prevent us from learning? Bible quote:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

SOP quote:

The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity in every great reformation or religious movement. The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same. The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time. {GC88 343.1}

Could it be possible that if we delineate past reformatory movements placing them line upon line, waymarks along a line, that we can learn that "God's dealing with men are ever the same? Is this really possible?

When the Angel (Christ) of Revelation 10 tells John, to take the little book and eat it, what book is He referring to? Isn't the little book the same book of Revelation 5 which He that sat at the Throne had in His right hand and no one could open? Yet there was One who prevailed to open the little book, yes, The Lion of the tribe of Juda, was able to remove the seven seals and when He, The Lion of the tribe of Juda removed the seals, seven thunders were uttered.

But again, why is it the little book? Brothers and sisters, it is the little book, because once you understand that the seven thunders are a delineation of events and those events are God's dealing with men and God's dealing with me are ever the same, then you see what God is trying to teach us here at the end is that all the accumulated light of ages past He has given us are going to shine now with such an incredible brightness that the incredible darkness that surronds us will not prevail. The bible turns into a little book that can be more easily understood, the book of Daniel has been unsealed, the seven thunders have been unsealed.

This is a test. It was a test to our founding fathers and it a test for us. Will we listen to The Lion?

If you break that down or simplify it a little, Bible quote:

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

SOP quote:

The Holy Spirit has so shaped matters, both in the giving of the prophecy and in the events portrayed, as to teach that the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and that the Lord God of heaven and His law are to be exalted.” Testimonies to Ministers, 112

But remember, Bible quote:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

So before this period of Sin, Righteousness and Judgement (or reformatory movement) begins, the Lord will let us know that the time has arrived by fulfilling a prophecy. God is good.

And in each of these periods, it is preceded by time of darkness. But there will be an increase of knowledge. Bible quote:

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Also remember, SOP quote:

The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity in every great reformation or religious movement. The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same. The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time. {GC88 343.1}

These periods are strikingly similar but not exactly identical. There are small differences.

Now the three periods that SOP compares most often are:

1 - The time period of Jesus

2 - The time period of the Millerites

3 - and our time period.

If you read the SOP writings, she compares these time periods over and over and over and over again.

So in these time periods, the message begins at the time of the end but it is empowered at a certain time.

And this is absolutely critical to understand the empowerment of the message, because when the message is empowered, the testing time begins and Judgement will soon take place. If you go back to the first post, that is part of the reason why the sadness that had befallen Jesus was so intense. The Jews had failed to realize that their day of visitation had arrived. And that history is going to be repeated in our day.

And in these three periods (as well as some others), the message is empowered when a heavenly being comes down. (The brother that did the 1st graphic is German, and where he puts the empowerment in the time of Jesus, it should say Holy Spirit comes down as a Dove)

The other reformatory movements have some very very important lessons but here are the ones that SOP compares most often.

"If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." Luke 19:42-44. {GC 17.1}

I don't know how to do the quote showing what Elle wrote but here is the quote from Elle - "Well, I hope you can back up what you say with the Bible. I don't believe that you can remove the seal with the SOP. It will be ONLY through Christ Jesus' direct teachings."

The bible (Word of God) tells us plainly that God's chosen people will have the testimony of Christ, or in other words the spirit of prophecy. No one on earth has authority to now say, God's people do not have the spirit of prophecy or testimony of Christ. If you look at the bible, God's people have always had a prophet.

If you look at the doctrines (truths that the church upholds and promotes) number 18 specifically says that Ellen G White is our prophet.

So the only logical question would be, are you a member of a false church?

not only that, but at the end the casket is bigger. SOP quote:

He then placed on the table a casket, much larger and more beautiful than the former, and gathered up the jewels, the diamonds, the coins, by the handful, and cast them into the casket, till not one was left, although some of the diamonds were not bigger than the point of a pin. {EW 83.6}
He then called upon me to "come and see." {EW 83.7}
I looked into the casket, but my eyes were dazzled with the sight. They shone with ten times their former glory. I thought they had been scoured in the sand by the feet of those wicked persons who had scattered and trod them in the dust. They were arranged in beautiful order in the casket, every one in its place, without any visible pains of the man who cast them in. I shouted with very joy, and that shout awoke me. {EW 83.8}

I'm going to post this here also since it's related:


The Casket is bigger at the end of the world.

Without a doubt we are living in a very dangerous time.

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." Proverbs 29:18. Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. He will bring in spurious visions, to mislead and mingle the false with the true, and so disgust people that they will regard everything that bears the name of visions, as a species of fanaticism; but honest souls, by contrasting false and true, will be enabled to distinguish between them. {FLB 296.6}

SOP tells us that there are hidden treasures in the bible, that we must not study the bible superficially for in it we will find jewels of truth. (are there any accidents in the Word of God?) Also upon the testimony of two or three, a thing is established. This rule is found throughout the bible. Even Jesus used it on Himself.

We have been told that those that listened to the prophets or the "chosen ones" were called fanatical and are going to be called fanatical. Here are a few examples.

In the time of Noah. Was Noah and his family ridiculed for believing?

Moses, how many times did the Israelites ridicule Moses?

John the Baptist and Jesus.

(for any of these prophets, if you rejected their message, what happened?)

Now it's interesting to note, in the history of the world, there are only four dispensational prophets, ever. (dispensational - meaning there has been a change in dispensation i.e. Noah - change of focus of worship from the gates of eden to the altar)

God's people must understand clearly the correct place of worship for as we read in the testimonies, if one worships God thinking Him being in the wrong place, you end up worshiping satan. See EW 259

Those four prophets are:

Noah - Focus from gates of eden to the altar

Moses - Focus from altar to the earthly sanctuary

John the Baptist - Prepared the way for the focus from earthly sanctuary to the heavenly sanctuary

Lastly Ellen Gould White - Focus of worship from the Holy to the Most Holy.

In each of these cases, God used the prophet to give light to the people. Interesting group no? And the people needed these prophets to clarify, no?

Also interesting, Ellen Gould White, interesting name. Has the prophets name ever had anything to do with their work?

Noah - comforter

Moses - out of the water

John the Baptist - baptized

And Ellen Gould White? What does her name represent?

Ellen - Bright Light

Gould - Old english for gold

White - White

Is there anywhere in the bible that mentions a prescription for people living at the end of the world?

Laodiceans

What is the prescription for Laodicea in Rev 3:18

Eyesalve

Gold

White Raiment

Now Gold and White are easy to see. But what about Eyesalve?

. . .eyesalve (true spiritual discernment). {RH, November 8, 1956 par. 7}

And what allows one to have spiritual discernment?

Psalms 119:105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The Word of God, is a bright light.

Ico, Jeff teaches by parallels and there is some merit to that, so here's a clear parallel. The ministry of Christ was 3.5 years, Elijah's testing of Israel was 3.5 years and the Millerite message was empower for about the same length. In fact regarding the Millerite message, I found this interesting quote today by Miller himself:

Miller consistently taught that Christ would come in 1843/1844. What is fascinating about this quote is that it reveals that Miller apparently believed that there would be a 3.5 year period of trouble and anarchy leading up to the return of Christ in 1843/1844. Given the keen prophetic insight of Miller, and the parallels with past dispensational way marks I think these teachings of Miller's and the parallels are worth noting.

If you look at the quotes from the Bible and SOP, the fact that there are parallels in the bible is taught by God, not by any man. (These studies are being taught all around the world along with the two charts God gave the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The two charts are the 1843 chart and the 1850 chart, both mentioned in the Bible, that they would speak and not lie at the end. Those charts can be found at the General Conference Offices or Various E.G. White Libraries)

We are not to depend on man or take the word of man. If it can not be proved from the Bible and SOP, than it is mans opinion, and we are not to be guided by mans opinion.

If you look at the sequence of events of the 3 1/2 years, they only match up in the line of Elijah and the Millerites. (the 3 1/2 years are in red)

The 3 1/2 years during the time of Christ do not follow the same sequence.

Now if you take the lines of Elijah and the Millerites, you will find some very interesting lessong that the Lord is teaching us. I'm not going to go into that right now since I want to finish the time of our visitation sequence, but notice.

Preceding the Millerite time period and the Elijah time period there were 3 1/2 of years of darkness with "Jezebel"

After the 3 1/2 years, the true prophet was revealed when the fire came down from heaven. In the line of Elijah, it was literal fire and in the line of the Millerites it was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Midnight Cry.

If you study the pattern of Christ and the pattern of anti-christ you will see the 3 1/2 line up i.e. the preparation of Christ was 30 years followed by 3 1/2 years. The anti-christ also has 30 years of preparation, from 508 to 538 and then 3 1/2 prophetic years of work. If I find that pattern I will post it.

This group is known as "Christians".Which is given by the Holy Spirit and has been so for the entire Christian era. While the words you write are true, your intent with them is not. The prophecies of the bible and the Holy Spirit are not exclusive property of the SDA church. In fact, it is only by grace that we partake them together with ALL other christians who are our brothers in the body of Christ. Once you identify SOP with the person Ellen White, you are stepping outside of biblical truth and are by yourself. Identifying SOP with the Spirit who gives the Prophetic utterances would retain truth in your statement. This last paragraph illustrate why your aim is off center, as I said above.

Let us be clear. A denominated people are a people that have been given a name.

The Lord has let us know the Seventh Day Adventist Church, is His denominated people, distinct separate. Our prophet is very clear on this. She repeats this in the inspired Word over and over again.

I do understand that there is a group within adventism that does not believe in this fundamental belief, and that is unfortunate. Especially considering that the group is getting bigger.

One of the test given to God's people is always the test of believing in the chosen one. This can be seen in the history of ancient Israel. If ancient Israel rejected the counsel of the prophet, they were lost. This is always the first test. All you have to do is read the story of Noah or Moses, Nehemiah, John the Baptist etc.

Some would like to treat doctrines and the Bible as a buffet. The Bible is not a buffet nor are the doctrines of the church.

By the way, access to Sister Whites writing are free online.

I understand from your text that Ellens words are scripture to you.



Matthew 12:18
"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

The one who trusts in the chosen one will never be put to shame. Now, who is this chosen one?

As for prophets..

Hebrews 1:
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

But then in even later times this must have been reversed so that God is again speaking by the prophets. For the prophets to be superseded by the Son of God, Himself God, is an honour. But if the Son of God is superseded by a prophet, whom among them is then receiving glory?

The prophecy of Daniel 9 predicts the greatest of all revivals - one in which atonement is complete, sin is ended and everlasting righteousness established. There were two 3.5 periods in the last 7 years of the 70 weeks. According to the prophecy it was in this last week that the covenant between God and His people was to be established. The first 3.5 years of the last week of years was Christ's ministry and the second was the gospel going to the Jews - 31 to 34 AD.

If we try to line up these two periods of the greatest of all reformations where would we place them in Elijah's day and in Millerite history, and especially where would we place them in the future Loud Cry?

Elijah’s 3.5 years of drought ended in revival at Mt. Carmel. This event is paralleled in Revelation 11 where the two witnesses have power for the same period to stop the rain and call down fire and smite the earth with plagues as Moses and Elijah did.



Unlike some Adventist expositors, Ellen White applies Revelation 11, ‘every verse’ of it, to the future and ties it into Rev 18, the Loud Cry.




At the first Advent of Christ revival and a special endowment of the Holy Spirit on the church came in the middle of the seventh week at the feast of Pentecost. Similarly, in Elijah’s day, fire from heaven fell at the end of the 3.5 years of drought and revival came. In the case of the Millerites there was a power that attended the message after August 11, 1840, but the third angel’s message was not empowered or given until after October 22, 1844. In the same way that the first two angel’s sounded in the 1840’s but all three were not empowered until spiritual gifts were revived in the church after 1844 - an event/endowment that not many appreciate the significance of - similarly, in the future, there will be a dual phased revival, the latter part of it paralleling the apostolic power of the two witnesses, which as we’ve seen above, Ellen White places primarily in the future.

But regarding this dual-phased revival, here is the parallel Ellen White makes to Christ’s ministry, His dual cleansing of the temple and the three angel’s messages:

In other words, in the future we can look for an initial empowerment of the gospel message followed by a second period of empowerment mingled with judgment.

I personally believe we're well into the first phase of the empowerment.

We most definitely are into the phase of empowerment but we must remember clearly, the latter rain is first poured out with measure, meaning to some. And only those who recognize it will be able to receive it. SOP quote:

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it. {TM 507.1}

In John 20:22 Jesus breathed on His disciples before pentecost, and this act of breathing on His disciples was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with measure before it was poured out without measure during the time period of pentecost.

As I have stated before, it is critical that we understand when this begins. This moment when the empowerment begins has been prefigured or shown in past histories.

Remember "God's dealing with me are ever the same" so in the examples of the end of the world in the bible, the empowerment begins when a heavenly being descends from heaven to empower the message.

In Acts, it states that when the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove from heaven, that act empowered Jesus ministry, then Jesus went to be tested first and He came back to test the Jews with the message.

The Millerites were also empowered on August 11, 1840 when the angel of Rev. 10:1 descended. See GC Millerites.

So with us now, and SOP clearly tells us that when the great buildings of New York come down, Rev. 18:1-3 are fulfilled, so the angel of Rev. 18:1 has come down and our testing time has begun. The message has been empowered.

If we get this wrong, if we reject this fact, we will fall into the same trap that befell the Jews in the time of Christ, and the protestant churches in the time of the Millerites.

We must understand that the time of our visitation has arrived.

I just got back from a camp meeting which was a real blessing. The Lord is giving us more light as we proceed.

The above quote is one of the reasons I do not view 9/11 as a test of faith. In order to receive the latter rain, we have to become practical Christians, growing in the active Christian virtues. Why is a particular prophetic interpretation unlikely to be a test of faith? Because what matters in God's eyes is our characters. In order to be prepared for the return of Christ we have to be like Him. Our understanding of what happened on 9/11 isn’t a matter of character.

There was a time when a prophetic interpretation was a test - the first, second and third angel's messages were indeed tests. They are tests now and they will be tests again in the future. The difference between these and 9/11 is that all three angel’s messages embrace the entire gospel, and it’s a correct understanding of the gospel and it's power to deliver us completely from the bonds of sin, not a private interpretation of prophecy, that makes these messages present truth. Therefore these message have tested and will test the church and the world “in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Romans 2:16.

I have another question. This is regarding Brother Jeff's emphasis on the 2520. I think it's good to study what Miller taught in that regard. But why so much emphasis on it and little attention on what he taught about 666 being the number of days or years of pagan Roman, starting at the Jewish-Roman treaty of 157 BC and ending in 508. Shouldn't that time prophecy receive as much attention as the 2520.

From my study of Daniel 7, I can prove that 9/11/01 is of prophetic significance. It is a lengthy study, but it is there.

"The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves" (7 BC 949.6).

Multiple fulfillments?

"There in His open hand lay the book, the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {20MR 197.2}
This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

I notices phrases like "the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation..." With the roll being opened some of those things revealed must apply to more than one nation.

Have you ever compared the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse to Daniel 2 and 7? Gold, silver, brass, iron and clay? Lion, bear, leopard, beast with iron teeth and brass nails? Horseman one, two, three and death and hell?

As Adventists we tend to put prophecy in a framework of linear progression and just don't see multiple fulfillments with some exceptions (the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem for example).

I'd like to read your view of 9/11 and it's connection with scripture. Would you be willing to share that with us in a new thread? Another new thread I'd be interested in is your view of 666 and the seven heads of the beast. I'd like to hear your views on that as well. The Search of Truth forum might be a good one to use.

I realize this thread has been inactive for a while but I feel obliged to comment. I have followed Jeff's interpretations keenly and a couple of my friends have preached themes similar to what he advances. Out of my discussions with them, and based on my own studies into Jeff's propositions, I agree that we are in a most important point in our history and need to wake up to the fact. However, as some have mentioned, I see some flags in his current message and wish to observe the following:

1. If 9/11 does fulfil the third woe then 1888 was not really the Loud Cry. But we have overwhelming evidence that the Lord began bringing us into the Loud Cry and we did not rise up to the need of the time.

2. The interpretation is based on the fact that the 7th trumpet (which ushers the 3rd woe) has been sounding since 1844. I agree with someone who commented previously that the 7th Trumpet sounds at the close of probation. See Rev 10:6, 7. The phrase translated as 'when he shall begin to sound' should better read 'when he shall be about to sound' as can be understood from most major bible dictionaries.
Strongs: G3195 primarily means 'To be about:
a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something
b) to intend, have in mind, think to'

Young's literal translation: 'But in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.'
I could post more versions but from your own private studies you can verify the exact meaning of the phrase. You could also find it useful to assess the various times the word is translated by the KJV- it is almost ALWAYS in anticipation of something. See Strong's analysis of the word

This could mean that the 7th trumpet has not began sounding since Rev 10: 7 says the mystery of God will be fininshed in anticipation of the sounding of the 7th trumpet. That being the case, the 3rd woe has not even began, so the entire interpretation might not hold.

3. These words are normally used to support the idea that there will be another 'delination' of events similar to that of the 1840-44 movement as a parallel to the 7 thunders: 'These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.'
My proposal on this text is that the words 'these relate to future events' were adressed, not to Mrs. White as is commonly held, but to John as a reason why he should seal them. Notice that the text is still talking about John in the next sentence: John sees the little book unsealed... The quting only differentiates where scripture begins and ends but not the message to John. Mrs. White has used this form of writing elsewhere, i can pull up references when i have more time. Anyway, what I am trying to propose is that the 7 thunders do not necessarily repeat as some commonly hold due to their interpretation of the passage.
When this is compared to the reason why the message of the 7 trumpets was hidden ('The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angel's messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested'), it becomes clear that the reason why this message of the 7 trumpets was sealed is because of the experience of the Great Disappointment which the early Adventists had to go through.

I have more to say but will wish to hear your thoughts.
God bless!

Davis, welcome to the forum. I look forward to studying with you. My research of the Spirit of Prophecy (SOP) has led me to believe the Loud Cry of the Latter Rain follows the formation of the image of the beast (USA) and the subsequent enforcement of the mark of the beast (Sunday Sabbath). Ellen wrote:

As foretold in the eighteenth of Revelation, the third angel's message is to be proclaimed with great power by those who give the final warning against the beast and his image.--8T 118 (1904). {LDE 201.6}

But the time to receive the mark of the beast, as designated in prophecy, has not yet come. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit Sabbath, and when the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads or in their hands. {BTS, February 1, 1913 par. 5}

Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers.--GC 611, 612 (1911). {LDE 203.2}

I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect....I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel." {Mar 201.6}

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place--when the mighty angel will come down from heaven, and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world; my message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning (RH March 29, 1892). {7BC 984.7}

As the message of the third angel swells to a loud cry, great power and glory will attend the closing work. It is the latter rain, which revives and strengthens the people of God to pass through the time of Jacob's trouble referred to by the prophets. The glory of that light which attends the third angel will be reflected upon them. God will preserve his people through that time of peril. {ST, November 27, 1879 par. 10}

MM, I agree with you fully.
Even in 1888 as Mrs. White confirmed that the message which was to usher us into the fullness of the Loud Cry had began, movements were evident which would doubtlessly have led to the climax of the final conflict. I believe the relationship between the Loud Cry and the Mark of the Beast will be the same as then in the final fulfilment. The Loud Cry will swell from a slow beginning as did the Midnight Cry. What is going to assist it blow up into a Loud cry will be the widespread interest generated by the debating into- and final passing of- the sunday Laws. Evidence from Great controversy which I cannot dig up now because I am in the office
I think, as was observed earlier on this thread, the key thing we lose in Jeff's arguments is the role of the kmessage of righteousness by faith in preparing people for the final outpouring. In his analysis, all that stood between the people of God and this remarkable blessing was, not the sins and insubordination of the people of God, but the development of radical Islam.
How sad!

Davis, it's good to know we are in agreement regarding this key doctrine. You will be happy to learn that I also believe the message and testimony of the True Witness must shake Adventism. It is a shaken and purified Adventism that will give the trumpet that distinctive, "certain sound". Too many Adventists believe Jesus will save them in their sins. They do not believe Jesus promises to save them from their sins.

Even many of the most well meaning Adventists believe we are born again with our sins [bad habits and practices] in tact and then we are supposed to work forever thereafter to gradually outgrow them. They disagree with Peter's description of newborn babes in Christ:

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

Newborn babes in Christ have "tasted that the Lord is gracious" and have laid aside "all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings" and are daily growing and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit through the "sincere milk of the word."

This is not to say they have lost the ability or freedom to separate from Jesus and resume sinning, no, not at all. However, it does mean that so long as they are "walking in the Spirit", "abiding in Jesus", and "partaking of the divine nature" they "do not and cannot" commit a known sin.

If they neglect to abide in Jesus and commit a known sin they immediately receive the gift of repentance which empowers them to confess and forsake their sin which in turn gives God the legal right to pardon them and to restore them to mind of the new man. They resume where they left off growing in grace and maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit "perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

The Biblical reasons given above do demonstrate how the 9/11/01 event is not the Seventh Trumpet, etc. I have recently done several studies that shed some light towards an understanding of the message of the Seven Thunders. The summary of these studies in regards to the Seven Thunders is given in this blog post , however the linked underlying studies will have to be read to get the full context and Biblical foundation. Hope this helps. Comments on it can be made here.

Would you mind summarizing in 50 words or less what you believe about the 7 trumpets?

Actually I really do not “mind” at all, however the problem with such a “50 words or less,” Reader’s Digest, summary is that it has to leave out all of the establishing, exegetical basis and context, and one can make just about any claim without such background proof. Nonetheless, here goes:

As explained in that blog post and its linked posts, the Seven Thunders are, as most strongly thematically linked in Rev 10, a delineated, New Covenant, application of the prophecies and messages in the entire book of Ezekiel (= the Scroll), as parallely also outlined in the eschatological fulfillment of the prophecy in Dan 11:5-45 (=Little Scroll) in the North vs. South Civil War in God’s Israel. As shown in that blog post, the book of Ezekiel was given in ca. 7 vision/oracle development sections over ca. 7 calender years. This entire development is summarized in the Two Witnesses prophecy of Rev 11, which is to follow, and complete the developments started in Rev 10 (1840+). Thus, as advanced Prophetic symbology shows, the Seven Thunders are a concealed “judgement” message of God which is seeking to accomplish all that God had in mind for His Israel on this Earth, and that for the Salvation/Testimony Benefit of the entire world.

Feel free to comment/ask questions however, for at least the sake of my time and effort, do first read through the greater, exegetical context of this ‘summarization’.

Do we know what the concealed judgment message is? Is it different than the 3AMs?

You’ll have to read up on my blog posts to get the answers to your questions here, however, in the line of what Jesus said, if you are willing to “do the truth” you will understand what this “thundering” judgement is/entails. (John 7:17). This judgement is primarily actually a judgement of the Laodicean Church, and in its full development it is not different from, but completes/finishes the Three Angel’s Messages all revolving on the fuller understanding of God’s Sabbath.

... Nonetheless, as a Messenger from God has related: “All the thunders and lightnings of Mount Sinai [Exod. 19:18-20:25ff] cannot move those who will not be moved by the plain truths in the Word of God. Neither would an angel's message move or awake them.”

I do not usually take the time read long, detailed studies without knowing ahead of time the basic conclusion. I hope you can appreciate this practice.

I can understand this, however not when this conclusion can, as it is normative, easily be seen or gleaned from the final portions of even such“long and detailed studies.” Notwithstanding, I believe that I have already answered your questions here short of restating all that I have posted on my blog in support of this conclusion. If you have further, “valid” questions for “unaddressed/unanswered” points, do let me know. I am merely concerned with managing my, quite vitally valuable time, particularly given these already written and posted answers. (Given the way this blog of mine is codingly structured, I cannot even directly refer you to a specific section in the blog post which may self-containedly answer a question, unless, when applicable, I just tell you which key word/phrase to search for on that page in your web browser.) Also simply stating a conclusion, which may be different from what people have traditionally/commonly believed, can unjustifiably lead to knee-jerk dismissals, though certainly not at my detriment.

Ellen made it clear that the 7 Thunders described events that transpired during the Millerite Movement. John was forbidden to record them. That's all we know about them.

It is important to read all of what EGW has to say on a subject, and also follow her counsel to make the Bible our final interpreter, and not her, for reasons that should be realistic and Biblical.

Nonetheless, in 19MR 319 (1900) [posted on my blog post], Ellen White links the message of the Seven Thunders with the now opened (sealed) little book. Sound exegesis shows that this little book are the prophecies of Dan 10-12 and in turn is linked to an eschatological application of the entire book of Ezekiel. In that 1900 statement, it seems to me that EGW places all of these events still/also/again “in the future” and which she also sees taking place under the Third Angel’s message. This understanding of her is corroborated by the fact that that Third Angel’s message came after the days of the Millerites and as it is to be sounded again in the future, as is the Second Angel’s Message, an application of the Seven Thunders message should also be expected. I exegetically see all of these 3 Messages, and thus the 7 Thunders, being sounded again in an eschatological application within the Church itself, before going to the world. Hence the Ezekiel application, among other linked, and also “Ecclesiologically” applicable sections of Scripture. ‘Judgement must, and will, begin in the House of God.’

It is also significant to understand that with the Second Coming having been postponed from a expected occurrence in ca. 1888, as many unequivocal EGW statement testify to, the historical fulfillment of prophecy which had extended through the Millerites days was broken an gave way to the eschatological days. So it is not surprising that many prophecies have literally been reset due to this “mission aborting” development, as with Ancient Israel. As discussed in my blog, the case is easily made, due to current developments in the SDA Church of a halted semi historical-eschatological development given place to a complete eschatological era, which actually was always God’s full plan, with the previous plans being merciful shortcut opportunities which His people did not seize.

Again these understandings are not done in/through such soundbites, which is why I have stated them in detail on my blog.

I agree it makes sense to assume the 7 Thunders will have another fulfillment in the future. However, as in the past, I think it also makes sense to assume God will hide the details from us.

It is what you are “expecting” that actually does not exegetically harmonize with the Scriptures and God’s approach, especially on this matter. God does not “supernaturally” reveal what can be easily gleaned/understood from a proper study of the Scriptures and unlike the early and past generation of SDAs, the current generation has all of the resources, education and personel to engage deep and sound Biblical research and exegesis. They however, actually just like you have manifested, on various levels, prefer to have a “simple” ‘square root of 2 =1’ approach. That may be in truncated/rounded up part true, however it will lead to all kinds of incorrect answers if “simply” plugged in as such.

God did not even give the “details” of the 7 Thunders to EGW in the past. He just made her aware that it involved ‘a testing of God’s people’. As such a ‘“testing” series of events upon the Church,’ it is not surprising that He does not want it to be expressed in full details. This “testing” nature is also to be expected in the future (eschatological) fulfillment. Nonetheless, as “detailed” on my blog, proper exegesis, given all of the thematic and spiritual clues in Rev 10, shows that this prophetic series is linked to the message of the entire book of Ezekiel. (The following thematically related “testing” post may be of help here. (An explanatory/annotated version of that blog post will soon be posted)).

The following passage contains everything Ellen wrote about the Seven Thunders:


In particular she wrote: "The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the Angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {19MR 320.3}

How do you envision this being repeated in the future?

Also, do you think the events delineated in Ezekiel transpired during the Millerite Movement?

Is Ellen White the infallible interpreter of Scripture?

Why do you ask?

The argument seems to follow the lines of "Ellen says it, I believe it and that settles it for me"..

The biblical approach seems to rather be:
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

Thus, compare what is said with the Scriptures, and:

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Thus, when the prophet interprets scripture, you test the interpretation and keep what is good.

The conclusion is that prophets are not infallible interpreters of scripture, for scripture is the basis for testing prophets. If you interpret the scripture through the prophet, the scripture will no longer function as a basis for testing said prophet (as you would end up with :Prophet X has told us that the Bible confirms everything Prophet X is saying and that we therefore must trust Prophet X or perish doing otherwise, therefore we know that we can trust Prophet X since when we use the Prophets interpretation, the bible does tell us that the prophet must be right).

Thomas, who is the final authority? Who determines what is the correct prophetic interpretation and application of a previously uttered prophecy?

Can we trust the NT? Or, must we study the OT to determine whether the NT presents the correct interpretation and application?

If you and I disagree, who determines who is correct?

If the SDA church interpretation and application disagrees with the rest of Christendom, who decides who is correct?

Is it possible to arrive at absolute truth based on Bible study? Or, is it a matter of opinion and personal preference?

God is the final authority, everyone else is approximating truth.
Any prophecy is to be compared with the clearest revelation of God known to mankind, the person and teaching of Jesus Christ. The NT, containing the testimony of the life and teaching of Jesus is the lens through which the Spirit who gives prophecy guides us into all Truth as far as we are able and willing to follow it. Many of the topics we discuss are mysteries; who is to say that both are not equally right and approaching Truth from different angles?The SDA church claims its reason for existing as having a God-given message to the world. Other churches, having received different messages make other emphasises than does the SDA church. Then all churches have more or less misunderstandings or misinterpretations in their doctrines. We can inform others in some areas as they must inform us in other areas. It is not possible to arrive at absolute truth, for then your knowledge would equal that of God. Nor is reaching towards absolute truth the primary objective of a christian life. Gods perfection is shown by how He acts with love and grace towards friend and foe, reaching towards this is our primary goal. Jesus only hard words were for those who put burdens on others backs, for those who profited on the expense of others. But for the men who flogged him, put thorns on his brow and penetrated his hands with nails, He prayed for their forgiveness and salvation. This is where we must reach, to a burden to love even those who cause us unspeakable harm.

I indeed quote and discuss this passage of EGW on the 7 thunders in my postand it is indeed here that I find the “testing” aspect of the 7 Thunders.



The background of much of what I have posted on my blog is contextually needed for the following statements but I cannot restate them all here. Nonetheless, here goes:

In a vision on the Third Angel’s message (EW 254.1ff) EGW says that: “[Jesus] sent another mighty angel with a third message to the world. A parchment was placed in the angel's hand,” not much has been said about the pointed and deliberate description and association here, but thematic comparison and exegetical studies shows that this is echoing the angel in Rev. 10 that descends with a “little scroll” in his hand. As such the Third Angels message can be understood to be most prominently associated with the message of the 7 thunders and as already demonstrated on my blog, this is also associated with the “unrolling of the scroll” theme crucially expressed by EGW.

It can therefore be seen and understood that the message of Ezekiel, which is, from Ezekiel 8 & 9, a “post Church-sealing’ message, revolves especially around the full unfolding of the third angel’s message.

I see that the first and second angel’s message were, like the first part of Ezekiel, as shown in the table on my blog, an attempt, in judgement by God’s approaching throne, to reform the existing Israel. This was all seen in the judgement message upon the Millerites, which similarly spoke of a “approaching of God to earth” and then (second angel) sought to separate God’s people from the Babylonian error it had “collected” during its days of Captivity. It is then that the Third Angel (in Ezekiel 8:1ff begins to do its work, starting with a sealing message which paramountly also involves God Sabbath, as well as a deeper intellectual and spiritual understanding and application of the truth. Much more is said on these in my blog posts.

Thomas, thank you for answering my questions.

NJK, it seems to me you are unnaturally forcing the 7 Thunders to fit into your prophetic model. John was told not to record them. Consequently, we have no idea what they are (other than Ellen saying they described events that happened during the Millerite Movement).

As I have said before, if you refuse to read the establishing background and contextual materials in regards to the 7 thunders it is really only “natural” (1 Cor 2:14) that you come to such ‘knee-jerk’ conclusion. Biblical Exegesis and the many thematically linking clues that God has given around this message help us to figure out what they are. If you “won’t read details” then don’t make the false claim that “these can never be understood”. That is a quite unbiblical approach, to say the least.

Also the torch of Biblical understanding did not end with EGW and, as shown before, she also did not see that the 7 thunders were all exhausted/fulfilled with the Millerite. She understood that a future, (i.e., future to 1900) fulfillment under the Third Angel’s message would transpire. There is also a whole issue of Historical fulfillments and eschatological fulfillments that is to involved and complex to be succinctly stated in sound bite here, nonetheless I have through study seen and understood that the an eschatological fulfillment is applicable today, with the previously started historical one having been halted, as seen with OT prophecies, and also due to the unworthiness of God’s Israel then.

Also you may see this as “forcing” because the 1st Angel and 2nd Angel message were said to cover the events of Ezekiel 1-7 while the Third is said to start with Ezekiel 8 and extend through the end of the book. Well proportionality of text is not a hermeneutic requirement for understanding applicable fulfillment, but only the actual content of the passages. Still it can be seen even in the experience of the Millerites and later SDA’s that the 1st and 2nd Angel’s Message periods were relatively short compared to the Third Angel which started in the late 1840's and continues until today, as its message has not yet done its work.

What does the Bible say about the 7 Thunders?

Well, as Rev 10:4 indicates, nothing explicit. Nonetheless, through careful exegetical study, in the Bible and SOP, as done on my blog post and its related posts, one can figure out what the message series entails. And, summarily stated here, it is the still not fully fulfilled message of Ezekiel rightly understood through a New Covenant prism.

(Since you clearly are interested in my substantiating details, yet “religiously” refuse to visit my blog, I must tell you, if this applies, that I do not make a penny off visits to my blog!?! Nor do I have to restate what is already, structuredly and documentedly posted there. You are only fooling yourself if you think that your oblivious ways are justified, and if you are merely trying to maintain a traffic/content focus on MSDAOL, then I cannot/will not sustain such Capitalistic mentality. Like usually the ultimate truth comes down between Biblically Righteous Acts and Capitalistic tenets and dogma.)

NJK, please understand that I am a regular person on this forum. I have no agenda. Your comments elicited a chuckle.

Well you did fool me with your patent, and at times mindlessly redundant, one-liner questions and comments combined with your noticed, most-probable, staunch refusal to visit my linked blog posts containing background and/or further information. This illogical incoherence all points to some sort of agenda to me, and even if it is solely a personal one. (Perhaps your “personal agenda” is to comment in as many forum as possible, for whatever reason??? Thus your “necessitated” non-interest in ‘bogging details.’)

I do not have the time to restate, and that forcefully out of context, what I have already fully discussed elsewhere.

NJK, I hope things go well for you on your blog.

Not the discussion follow up I was looking for, but “typically” expecting! (Matt 21:27)

Comments like this do not motivate discussion.

Well then just don’t ask, factually, “mindlessly redundant” questions!! Opting to ignore obtainable posted details is a waste of my time. Don’t blame me if you are choosing to, literally “stick your head in the sand!”

More frankly, many of you all act like ‘spiritually prideful, grown up children’ (1SM 109-111)... vexatiously looking for quibbling excuses to self-justify their, various, non-assumption of responsibility. Anything to skirt the actual, full and pertinent issues at hand.

Or in one short sentence: "refusing to take your word for it". Or: "not thinking exactly like you, despite you telling us repeatedly that you are right"..

NJK, the way you communicate is less than winsome and endearing. It makes me less inclined to spend time with you studying. Please considering changing the way you communicate.

I’ll most naturally change my communication when I objectively see that you are being honest in this discussion by actually reading the background details instead of making me waste my time with questions on issues that I have already covered on my blog (and that can be electronically closely ascertained)! How’s that for a "deal"?!

You may believe that your 'EGW and nothing else' approach entitles you to your defaultly dismissive stance, however that stance in its is rejected by both the Bible and EGW herself.

I am uncomfortable building a prophetic interpretation on a prophecy John was forbidden to record.

I can, and do, readily understand that. In fact I was of the same opinion before a particular, recent watershed moment. And still, even after what I have been able to exegetically understand from that prophetic series, I know and understand, even better than before that if God’s people were/are faithful in endeavoring to accomplish Jesus Christ’s exhaustively comprehensive Gospel, indeed how He wants and expects it to be done, they would indeed never need to know the details of this “testing” prophecy, because in these concrete ‘righteous actions’ in their lives, they would have been walking in the light that God wanted them to, thus easily passing this test. So even if one understands these exegetical details in this prophecy, if they still refuse to truly accomplish Christ’s Gospel, they’ll still not pass this test.

That “watershed” moment, was, after having done exegetical studies on other “recorded” prophecies, particularly the one on the SOP ‘Mark of the Beast/Unrolling of the Scroll”, which dealt with the statements in Rev. 10. So many recorded key points in that prophecy were so sounded exegetically identified/explained that the relation of the Seven Thunders and the Prophecies of Ezekiel was then a self-evident given. The ending mention of the ‘eating of the scroll” (Rev 10:9-11) which almost verbatim echoed the action that launched Ezekiel into his prophetic ministry (Ezek 2:8-10) sealed this exegetical association.

So as seen in the deliberate, sequential placement of this prophecy in my blog’s listing, it was the end result of several other underlying studies and not a vice-versa shot in the dark. That is why I am emphasizing the study of these prior posts first.

How can you concretely and confidently say your understanding of Ezekiel's prophecies definitely reveals the details John was forbidden to record, details we must know and believe to pass the end time test?

That is a question that requires the restatement of all of the background studies that had led to this noticed association. So you’ll have to read these studies which are posted on my blog. And, in regards to understanding that the test involves truly ful-fill-ing Christ’s exhaustively comprehensive Gospel, cf. John 7:17. (You evidently are not aware of this, but such substantively “redundant” as this questions are simple being caused by your manifest choice not to read any of these posted studies, because their background/context info addresses these issues. Honestly-speaking, as this might help, your line of questioning resembles a person at the airport who missed their transatlantic flight yet is pestering the ticket agents about why it is not return to get him so that he won’t be late to his scheduled meeting. Seems to me that in your continued questioning, still with the chosen ignorance of these previous posts, you are hoping for an “impeachable” out-of-context (thus “proof-text” type) answer here in order to have some sort of summarily dismissive “gotcha” moment here!?? The fact of the matter is, I know the foundational facts which support my conclusion, so if you also really want to know, you’ll have to, actually, just read them.

Please work on your communication skills.

As much as you may self-justifying want to believe it, I do not have ‘“communication skills” problems’ I am just utterly annoyed by, in this pointed case, your senseless refusal to read background info from my blog. So call me human, but when I am so annoyed, I use the, indeed, appropriate expressions. Seems like Jesus also did not mince words with people who knowingly insisted on being “blind”, “moronic” and “foolish” (Matt 23). So, once again, as “tone deaf” as you seem to be, when you exercise your reading skill in regards to the related material on my blog post, (i.e., I have not seen a visit from (ca.?) Cotton_ _ _ _ , A_ to my blog since ca. 9-minute, 2 page+ 1 graphic view, visit, January 10, 2011 11:05:32.), then I’ll consider you to be sincere and truthful and my attitude towards you will natural change. Otherwise this is all just a waste of my quite valuable time.

AHEM! To go back to Jeff's study methods...

I find reasonable reason to disregard much of what he teaches. I recently studied the 2520 year prophecy with a few friends and I will post here parts of our discussions:

I wish to propose that this period does not exist at all. I have three points on this and will post them seperately. I draw heavily from the appendix of Bro. Uriah Smith's work 'Daniel and Revelation'

1. The Language of Lev 26

One of the ares we agreed to look into more was the way in which 'seven times' is rendered in the Hebrew. Uriah Smith did a good job on this one and will not reinvent the wheel byt echoing his thoughts here. I will however summarize his view that the words used in Lev 26 differ significantly with what is later used in Daniel. In Lev the rendition is a single Hebrew word (an adverb) which simply means sevenfold, while in Daniel the phrase rendered 'seven times' in Dan 4 is two word with the word 'time' being a noun. The same is observed in Dan 7 and 12 to refer to 'time, times and dividing of time' where a noun is used.

I read Jeff quoted somewhere to the effect that some Hebrew experts have shown that Lev 26 could well mean 'seven times' in the sense of seven periods of time rather than seven degrees more.

I think Uriah Smith's review of the context, which I will address in the next post, can clarify that. But for now I can disagree with this based on my own study of the phrase in
Hebrew. It is not one in which I would really require much external assistance for I can check for myself and determine, and on this one I think Bro. Smith was quite correct

In the previous post I explored the reason why Lev 26 should be read as 'seven degrees' rather than 'seven periods of time' as Bro. Jeff suggests. I based this on the fact of parts of speech. Now I wish to refer to Bro. Smith's key reason for finding this latter interpretation improper, and it has to do with a little word often overlooked: 'more'.
See, when the Lord was iving these warnings to His people, He often said something like 'I will punish you seven times more...'

Study the chapter well. First in verses 1- 23 God gives instructions and the blessings that would follow obedience to them.

Then in vs 14- 17 He highlights plagues and terror that would befall his people if they disobeyed. They would also be slain before their enemies among other things. These things
would come upon them if they did not obey to prove them and bring them back to the path of obedience.

But IF THEY STILL DID NOT OBEY after these punishments, vs 18- 22 records a higher degree of punishments that would come upon them. It is clear, therefore, that this would only happen if they failed to be reproved by the earlier punishments. It is in verse 18 that we find the first reference to 'seven times more'.

Clearly, the correct rendition, according to the context, should be that they would be punished seven degrees more than the previous punishments. The context does not support the idea of 'seven periods of time more'. But if it did, then note that we would have to keep adding the 7 times together as long as the word 'more' appears. No wonder Uriah Smith obeserved that if Lev 26 refers to time periods then it would not be 2520 years at all, but 2520*4 years!

But let us continue:
If the punishments in vs 18- 22 failed to bring them to their senses, verse 23, 24 say that seven times more punishment would come upon then- another higher degree of punishment. The specifics are outlined as in other previous cases until verse 26.

Verse 27 onwards says that if all this would still not accomplish the desired goal then they would have one last punishment which would involve them being driven from thier land
into captivity, and the land would enjoy her sabbaths. To this final punshment there is no 'seven times' attached.

Hence the 'seven times' in this chapter refer to punishments of increasing magnitude which indeed began as early as the days
of the judges just after the death of Joshua.

We therefore fall into the trap of applying a period to a punishment that does ot specify it. But, as Smith insists, if we have to count at all, we should remember that these were several punishments, one coming only after the previous has failed to do its work. We should therefore be consistent and add upp all the mentiones of 'seven times' and not treat them as a single punishment, because indeed they are not.

But the Lord did mention just how long the land would lie in desolation, and hence how long this final punishment would last. This was later confirmed by the record of the departure into captivity in 2 Chron 36, Jeremiah's prophecy concerning the liberation from captivity and Daniel's prayer for restoration.

Now we need to look at Mrs. White's enthusiastic endorsement of the 1843 & 50 charts and her comment that the figures are right and should not be altered, except at inspiration.

I purposely chose to respond to this last because i think Mrs. White's endorsement should not substitute proper study. As you will probably note, the charts were later were later reprinted without the 2520 being inserted. Suffice it to say she did not think it significant enough to raise her voice in protest.

Here is exactly what Mrs. White says:
"I saw that the truth should be made plain upon tables, that the earth and the fullness thereof is the Lord's, and that necessary means should not be spared to make it plain. I saw that the old chart was directed by the Lord, and that not a figure of it should be altered except by inspiration. I saw that the figures of the chart were as God would have them, and that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none should see it till His hand was removed..."

This statement was made regarding the 1843 chart and not the 1850 one as some people think (hence errenously using it to confirm that Mrs. White said the 1850 chart should not be altered except by Inspiration).

Observe the 1850 chart and you will realize that the 1335 and the 1290 are missing! If EGW was referring to all features of the initial chart being left intact, except for the correction of the dates from 1843 to 1844, why does this important chart drop the two periods 1335 and 1290? It seems that they were not included in the injunction to leave the chart intact.

By the way the 1850 chart was actually developed by James White and God directed that it be produced. Adventists had continued preaching using the 1843 chart as it was, but Mrs White says,

"God showed me the necessity of getting out a chart. I saw it was needed and that the truth made plain upon tables would affect much and would cause souls to come to the knowledge of the truth."--Letter 26, 1850, p. 1. (To Brother and Sister Loveland, November 1, 1850.) {5MR 202.4}

It is when this new chart was being drawn up that she explained that the old chart was not to be altered but a mistake had been in the figures- which is what was being addressed.

"I saw that the truth should be made plain upon tables, that the earth and the fullness thereof is the Lord's, and that necessary means should not be spared to make it plain. I saw that the old chart was directed by the Lord, and that not a figure of it should be altered except by inspiration. I saw that the figures of the chart were as God would have them, and that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none
should see it till His hand was removed." {SpM 1.3}

"On our return to Brother Nichol's, the Lord gave me a vision and showed me that the truth must be made plain upon tables, and it would cause many to decide for the truth by the third angel's message with the two former being made plain upon tables. I also saw it was as necessary for the paper to be published as for the messengers to go, for the messengers need a paper to carry with them containing present truth to put in the hands of those who hear and then the truth would not fade from the mind, and that the paper would go where the messengers could not go. Other things I saw, which will appear in the paper...." {5MR 203.1}

Why, then, did the messenger not protest at the exclusion of the other time periods? This could guide us in understanding exactly what she meant in the first quote above.

Apparently, she did not consider that the 1335 and the 1290 were part of the figures that should not be altered. She clarifies in GC and other sources quoted below that other Adventists who were setting different times for the fulfilment of the 2300 were wrong and should leave the dates just as God had set them, that they were as God wanted them but the failure of fulfilement as had initially been anticipated should not be taken as a
reason to adjust the figures.

"The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to
intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door." {10MR 270.1}

"We have not cast away our confidence, neither have we a message dependent upon definite time, but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Saviour, and doing all in our power for the preparation of our fellow men for that great event. We are not impatient. If the vision tarry, wait for it, for it will surely come, it will not tarry. Although disappointed, our faith has not failed, and we have not drawn back to perdition. The apparent tarrying is not so in reality, for at the appointed time our Lord will come, and we will, if faithful, exclaim, "Lo, this is our God; we have
waited for Him, and He will save us" (Isaiah 25:9)." {10MR 270.2}

I think it is an attempt to read into what Mrs White did not mean when we claim that the 1843 chart should not have been altered in any way saving for the change of the dates
from 43 to 44. And this we can safely deduce from the fact that the chart whose printing she was directed to oversee dropped important figures initially found in the 'old chart', and in her statement to clarify the reason for a new chart she included that statement taken today to mean that the initial chart was to be left just as it was.

A second argument for not taking a blanket assurance towards the correctness of every detail of the chart is in the ten toes of the 1843 chart. we know today that they pioneers were not very right as to the true identity of the ten kingdoms of the Roman
Empire, until this was clarified in the 1880's. Did Mrs. White endorse the chart? Yes. Was its production inspired of God? Yes. Did it contain an error? Yes. Did Mrs. White's endorsement later prevent this from being corrected? No.

How can this help us?

Just as other works that Mrs. White endorsed (such as Uriah Smith's Daniel and Revelation) there could have been errors in the Millerite chart. Mrs. White's endorsement is clarified when we understand the historical context of the message to be, not a
blanket confirmation as to the contents of the 1843 chart, but a seal to the correctness of the dates that had been used in the charts, and which were in dispute at that point in time.

For these reasons (and more especially on hias views on Rev 10, the 3rd Woe and 9/11) I do not trust his study methods.

Davis, thanks for the good research. Have you reviewed Jeff's more recent rebuttal to some of your arguements. Would you mind commenting on it is you have the time. Here's the link. http://the2520.com/PDFs/Jeff%202520.pdf.

Like you, I have to reject a lot of Jeff's conclusions, but I tend to think he has a valid point on the 2520.

Regarding your point that the 1290 and 1335 days don't appear in the 1850's chart and therefore not all figures from 1843 such as the 2520 are valid, you imply that the dropping of those figures invalidates them but is that the case? Many Adventist bible students would say the 1290 days did indeed start in 508 CE and end in 1798. Granted there is less clarity on the 1335 days which end in 1843 rather than 1844, but rightly on wrongly (wrongly in my view) conservative Adventists insist this part of the prophecy was in fact fullfilled in 1843. So dropping figues from the chart doesn't appear to bother most Adventists.

Today I put together a short compilation of obscure SOP statements on the prophetic periods and last day events that I'll post shortly on a different/new thread - Obscure Prophetic Statements by EGWhite. One of them refers to these two periods and implies a future fulfillment.

Blessings everyone,

I am new here and I just want to ask a question without reading but a small portion of the posts in this thread; Are we discussing whether or not Ellen White predicted 9/11?

I've noticed talk about the third woe being started by 9/11, and radical Islam, and I just want to know what this discussion is about.

For those who don't know,

James White wrote an article in the Review and Herald in 1864 showing there wasn't any prophetic period in Leviticus chapter 26. I would have to agree with James White.

As far as the charts are concerned, Ellen White clearly stated that "some of the figures" were wrong. Also, if you look up the words "precious dust" on the software, she gives a wonderful endorsement of William Miller being used by God even though he had rejected the third angels message and the Sabbath.