Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church
Posted By: Charity
Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/05/03 02:51 PM
Yesterday I was looking at the message of Christ to the churches in Thyatira and Pergamos in Revelation 2. I noticed that our Lord seems to connect the immoral practices of Jezebel with sorcery. Pagan rites have been known anciently for their immoral content, but here, the Lord warns the church that even among believers there is a decided connection between immoral thoughts and actions and the occult. The one leads to the other. The occult is moral night, so it would be expected that sexual impurity is one of its attributes, and conversely if one partakes of its fruit – impurity – one becomes identified with it’s secret, or ‘deep’ teaching, at first on a subconscious level, but more overtly as one’s capacity for self deception increases with each sinful indulgence.
Another connection that Christ makes is to link immorality and impurity with the overbearing, manipulative doctrine of the Nicolaitans in the church at Pergamos. According to Strong, this word defines a mindset to rule over the laity, not by any virtue other than for the purpose of being the one in authority. This doctrine especially threatens Adventism. But note that Thyatira and Pergamos were under attack from this three fold union – immorality, occultic influence, and a disposition in those who had come under these influences to rule or ruin. We need to be wise here, recognizing that the only way of overcoming our human tendency to entrust our God given duties and privileges to another human being is to overcome in these areas of moral purity. Only then can we expect to close the door on our inherent vulnerability to manipulation. This is my view. What do think forum?
quote:
2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;
2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.
2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/06/03 07:07 AM
What was the doctrine of the Nicolaitans? THis can help in identifying what and where it is being used today.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/06/03 07:49 AM
There is a book titled Deceived by the New Age that I am currently reading and one of the key points that is mentioned is the infiltration that happens in the church.
There are people sent to infiltrate the churches who would watch a very very big well known tv evengelist and study his techniques, and his techniques were attractive to the leader of this 'group' since what he said was very much inline with new age. So his techniques were used to preach to un-suspecting sincere truth seekers, but no truth was being preached.
Interesting stuff and worth the read since there seems to be a lot of people wanting to see spiritual manifestations occurr in order to be 'sold' on going to that church. No mention yet of the fornication and eating food belonging to idols, but am curious if such denominations have these types of practices and are under the guise of Christianity?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/07/03 07:13 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Do you think such activities are present in the church or presented as benign in our daily lives?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/07/03 06:21 AM
Fornication is pandemic throughout Christendom including Adventism. The occult is more subtle. Claudia Thompson-Burrows has some good insights on its manifestations in Adventism. Any ground given in adopting occultic thinking whether in the form of New Age mysticism or ancient paganism is eating the food of idols, that is demons.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/07/03 10:11 AM
Thanks Mark for your response, and I will see what type of literature Claudia Thompson-Burrows has published.
One thing that I do find curious and hopefully is not off topic, but what about the more popular holidays that are celebrated i.e. Christmas and Easter?
I know that today it is just a gimmick and the holidays are a time to see family and the like, but I have heard about the paganistic roots of Christmas and Easter and would like to know what your opinions are on these?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/07/03 02:42 PM
My view of Christmas and Easter is that they are good annual reminders of the birth and death of Christ, and we should take advantage of the opportunity to meditate on those events and enter into the Christian spirit of what they celebrate. If we bear in mind that the days chosen to do this are pagan, and that the actual day for Easter is the day after the Passover and the day for Christmas is likely one of the fall feast days we are safe. The Pagan days are false days of worship of course, but there is no law against worshiping God on any of them. The opposite is true. We worship God morning and evening and Sabbath to Sabbath regardless of what Pagan rites fall on these days.
But there is no safety in celebrating Hallowe'en. Participating in Hallowe'en with your children is breaking down the hedge that God has errected for us against the occult, because the focus is demonic.
Claudia hasn't written any books. She's posted some things on New Age within the church here on MSDAOL. She hasn't been that active lately but the way to trace her posts is to find one and then click on the link in the lower left corner of the post box. The most recent post she's made on an unrelated topic is in the church issues forum on one of the two thread on home churches I think.
Posted By: Ralph Myers
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/08/03 12:47 AM
Why should any Christian, that believes that the papacy is the beast, accept the holy day instituted by the beast? Re: Christmas...
It has no other holy significance other than that given to it by the pope that made it a holy day.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/08/03 02:49 PM
Christmas is like Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is not more holy than any other day, but it is another good opportunity to remember God's providences and mercies. If we can remember what God has done in general on one day of the year because the rest of the community thinks this is a good thing, why can't we also remember the birth of Christ annually. No one knows the exact date of His birth, but it would be a shame not to celebrate it. Lots of good things happen on Christmas. Many children have their first chance to experience the joy of giving and they do it wonderfully. The Jews annually lived in booths made of trees boughs, and in the Christmas tradition, we bring in a tree. Just the smell of the pine or spruce is a blessing and worthwhile, let alone the beauty.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/08/03 04:23 PM
I would hope the majority of people, especially Chritians, realize that the day the world celebrates Xmas is not really the day Jesus was born. I think there is a very good reason why we have not been allowed to know just what day He was born..and for very good reason. Look what the people have done with the 25th day of December. It has become a very good time of the year for sales to go way up. I do belive the majority of the people who celebrate this day really do not spend much time remembering that it is soppose to be in honor of Christ's birth. Mostly it is for giving and receiving presents, partying, etc. If I am not mistaken there are even some schools who can not even have the Xmas play we use to all have...you know the manager and wise men, etc. It might offend some of these other non-Christian people.
However, since it is a time of the year that does bring out some thoughts of Christ to the world I believe that we as Christians should in some way, not like the world, use it for telling others about Christ and what He has done for us and will do for them.
I agree with not having anything to do with Halloween...
Easter....mostly another time of the year for spending money...egg hunt, chocolate bunnies...pagan. We can use the time to tell others about Christ's resurrection.
If God had wanted us to celebrate all these man-made holidays He would have told us how to do it and what day. Since He did not then I do not think we should be giving the wrong example by following the world in the way they do. But I do beieve, especially if you have children, that you learn to do it in a way that will show others the love of God and point them to Christ. We can not just ignore certain holidays like Christmas. Great time to show the which spirit is in you...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/10/03 10:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Shipowick:
Claudia Thompson-Burrows has some good insights on its manifestations in Adventism.
Mark
This is not true. I would like to see you prove this statement with VERIFIABLE evidence.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/10/03 03:01 PM
Check out what she says David and show where she is wrong. We can discuss that on a separate thread if you like and I'll remove my endorsement here if you can show otherwise.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 07:23 AM
Mark
You made the claim; why can't you show us evidence? I am asking for evidence because I don't understand why you say this.
I know what she says.
Posted By: Kim Varner
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/10/03 11:16 PM
For a nice, spiritually refreshing holiday alternative, try the following site:
http://www.biblicalholidays.comMay His Spirit guide us into all truth,
Kim V.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 02:32 AM
David,
Yes, a separate thread is strongly advisable, and in a private forum setting.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 03:30 AM
That's OK Daryl; but then, I don't understand why a referral to this source of "information" was allowed in a public thread.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 04:03 AM
Making a referral in a public thread is one thing; discussing it in a negative sense is another matter that doesn't belong in this thread.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 07:19 AM
LOL...I love those now familiar, red, flashing lights you use Daryl. Whatever you say...it's your forum.
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 04:19 PM
What does lol mean? I've seen that so many times, but haven't figured it out. The context is always a supposed rolleyes situation.
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/11/03 06:37 PM
Mark,
LOL means "laughing out loud." To find out more, check out
GLOSSARY OF INTERNET ACRONYMS.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/14/03 01:40 AM
What other topics, or subjects do any of you see as being subtly brought into church? Anyone see meditation or things like that?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/15/03 07:10 AM
Have you you heard of the "spiritual disciplines?" You will find them being (often subtly) brought into our churches. These disciplines, while not all bad in and of themselves, are based on the monastic practices of monks and the Catholic Church. The main promoter and source of information is Renovaré, the company began by Richard Foster to promote the disciplines.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/15/03 02:38 AM
Thanks Linda: That's a handy page. Suppose I should bookmark it.
Those disciplines, are they related to Loyola's spiritual exercises?
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/15/03 06:01 AM
Good catch there Linda! I came across many..many SDA churches that have 'Spiritual Disciplines' as part of there services or teachings while searching online. The following site that I came across is renovare.org and they have the motto Bringing the Church to the churches, so definitely here is the root. Very interesting to see this.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 12:42 AM
There is a lot of information regarding the spiritual disciplines on the internet. Yes, they are connected with
The Spiritual Exercises of Ignasisus Loyola. That is one of the sources that they have used to develope the modern day version of the disciplines. One of the best sources I found for describing what these exercies are is found in a newsletter called
Relections Monthly Newsletter in issues that were published in
1998 and in
1999. The September '98 issue answers the question "What are the disciplines?" Succeeding issues describe them in more detail. Some of these things in and of themselves are good. Things like fasting and prayer are definitely biblical.
The June '98 issue says this about the spiritual disciplines:
quote:
A number of recent authors have called believers to savor the wealth of the spiritual disciplines that have informed Catholic and Orthodox spirituality for centuries but that have been largely overlooked by Protestants. These authors include Richard J. Foster (Celebration of Discipline, Freedom of Simplicity, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home), Dallas Willard (The Spirit of the Disciplines, The Divine Conspiracy), and Henri J. M. Nouwen (The Way of the Heart). These writers are united in their view of the spiritual disciplines as crucial means to the pursuit of God. They argue that the classical disciplines of the Christian faith are not optional, but essential practices for those who not only love Jesus, but want to become like Him. {underline added for emphasis}
Here they state clearly the source of the disciplines and even go so far as to say they are mandatory. The Catholic system of salvation is a system of works, and the disciplines are part of that, now being brought into Adventism. They also open a door into the realm of spiritualsim.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 10:42 AM
OK...so who is bringing these disciplines into Adventism? How are they doing it? What verifiable evidence can you provide for this?
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 11:01 AM
Hi David,
Currently this is being taught at Andrews University. Below is a quote:
quote:
The time will be approachingwhen “every professor is a spiritual guide and every syllabus a confession of faith.”
If you want to see what is currently being taught to future pastors then check out this link
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 08:00 PM
I find it difficult to believe that anyone can swallow what is being charged here re the big Jesuit thing and all these "disciplines" entering the church, whatever that means.
I checked out the link, and it is just as I suspected. They are not teaching this stuff as something they want us to believe and adopt. if you read carefully, all you will see is that they are teaching this as an adjunct to doctoral level courses, for the purpose of examining how different religious phenomena have shaped spirituality in society.
I quote from the "Desired Outcomes" of the course:
quote:
Students will know, in broad terms, how Western Christianity has conceptualized the Christian life.
a. Key metaphors
b. Major movements
c. Classic devotional literature
Once again; it looks like our watchmen on the wall are a bit sleepy.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 09:04 PM
Hi Stan,
This was a general search I did and not something specific, but there are already churches that are doing this so if:
A.) A rather large well known university is providing this as part of a curriculum.
B.) There are already SDA churches participating and actively promoting Spiritual Disciplines.
Are the identity specifics really that important when the 2 conditions listed above already do exist? This is interesting to say the least, and I am not familiar with what 'SPiritual Disciplines' are, so perhaps you can take a look into it. That's my 2¢
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 10:23 PM
I dont know what the diciplines you are talking about are, since they obviously derrive from Loyolas club, but when I hear the words spiritual diciplines, my assossiations go to 2 Peter 1:5-8(11).
Perhaps what you are talking about is something entierly different.
/Thomas
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/16/03 10:44 PM
I would venture to say that the verses you referred to Thomas are not the ones, but this is just a guess since 2 Peter1:5-11 is about growing in grace which comes from God:
quote:
2 Peter 1:3,4
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
I do not know and am not familiar with the disciplines that stem from loyola, BUT check out renovare.org to get an idea.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/23/03 04:15 PM
Thanks Will for posting that link. I didn't realize that you could customize a Google search like that. That is a very handy thing to know.
David, I don't think you looked over the many references to spiritual disciplines in the link very well. The one that you did review also has the following information as part of the course description:
quote:
7. Students will understand theories of spiritual development.
a. classic tradition
b. Protestant spiritual renewal: Lovelace
c. faith development: Fowler and Parks
d. spiritual disciplines: Willard, Foster, Mulholland, etc.
e. logic of the Spirit: Loder
8. Students will be able to integrate theology and the social sciences for understanding spiritual growth.
a. body and spirit: Willard
b. Holy Spirit and human spirit: Loder
c. personality and piety: Mulholland
. . . . .
10. Students will be able to articulate a theoretical model of spiritual growth that has significant explanatory power.
a. Thayer model
b. student's own synthesis
11 Students will be able to design a plan to facilitate spiritual growth for a selected group. (age, culture, etc.)
a. curriculum development
b. instructional strategies
. . . .
Total class experience
15. Students will value the spiritual disciplines as "means of grace" or as the methods by which human beings place themselves before God so that he can transform them.
. . . .
This is the only reference I've checked of the dozens of hits that Google generated at the Andrews web site.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/23/03 11:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Shipowick:
Total class experience
15. Students will value the spiritual disciplines as "means of grace" or as the methods by which human beings place themselves before God so that he can transform them.
It would be very interesting what this teacher means by spiritual diciplines. Methods by which humans come before God? I wonder how they get this to add up with the rest of what we believe in.
/Thomas
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 11/24/03 03:33 AM
I came across a term called
reflection, so what does that term mean and where does it come from especially in the context of one's 'spirituality'?
Also I came across an
Ecumenical Order of Christian Scholarsat this university , so since I am not up to date at all on the terminology used I decided to find out what Ecumenical means:
quote:
Adj. 1. ecumenical - concerned with promoting unity among churches or religions; "ecumenical thinking"; "ecumenical activities"; "the ecumenical movement"
Refer to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ecumenical
This is just extra information since felt that this is a form of manipulation that is occurring. Any thoughts?
God Bless,
Will
edited original definition with one from the dictionary
[ November 23, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Will ]
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/10/03 04:49 AM
These things are troubling. I hope someone will drop a line to the dean of the seminary re both issues above. It may not be what it appears, but on the surface, it doesn't look good.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/11/03 09:27 PM
Dr William Loveless, Pastor of the University Church at Lome Linda, Calif (at least he was last time I checked dont know if he still is now) went around teaching our SDA pastors Eastern Mysticism techniques such as Visualization and having actual mystical encounters with Jesus Christ, which I have heard on tape.
This same Dr. Loveless also advocated on his suggested reading list "Lessons in Contemplative Prayer" that we read the works of William Johnston. Johnston is a Jesuit Professor at Sophia University in Tokyo. Johnston is a very strong believer in Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin's ideas of the "Cosmic Christ" or all of humanity evolving into oneness and that is "the Christ" and "the Omega Point". Johnston believes that "through Christian mysticism, a fresh impulse is given to the thrust of consciousness in its movement toward the Omega".- William Johnston, S.J. (Jesuit- Spociety of Jesus), "The Cloud of Unknowing and the book of privy Counseling: and enduring classic of Christian mystical experience" pg. 15-19.
Some of the other names on William Loveless's suggested reading list for SDA pastors are, Loyola, Ignatius- The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius (who was the founder of the Jesuits), Robert Ornstein -"The Nature of human consciousness", St. Theresa -"The complete work of St. Theresa", John White, -"What is Meditation?", Arthur Deikman, "Bimodal Consciousness", and Thomas a'Kempis.
Ignatius Loyola created his "Spiritual Exercises" which basically were just a way to get people to have a full submission to the leaders without question. Also Ignatius Loyola was obsessed with forumlating exercises that would lead to conversing with dead saints and even with God Himself, physically.
Robert Ornstein is a well known New Age teacher who popularized Right and Left Brain thinking, which basically New Agers use to try to activate the Right Brain "intuitive" side so they may have a mystical experience with "The Universal All" (their pantheistic "god force" which is all of nature as one, being "God"). Dr Loveless also has held men's retreats that "add to your whole brain learning", according to a church brochure.
John White, another name on Loveless' suggested reading list for SDA pastors teaches that we will pass from "the Age of ego" to "the Age of God" and realize "the unity of all life". -John White, CHANNELING, a short tradition of long tradition". John White agrees with Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin's works that say mankind is evolving into a "new speices". Interesting because as we know, the Omega Apostasy was said by EG White to be about pantheism and she also said:
"Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen, restlessly waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are watching and waiting and working for our Lord's appearing; while the other party are rapidly falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. They look for a god in humanity, and Satan personifies the one they seek. Multitudes will be so deluded through their rejection of truth that they will accept the counterfeit. Humanity is hailed as God." EG White, Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 364
well I could go on and on with this stuff but I just thought you'd like to know this. And yes its true that the watchmen do need to wake up:
"There are among us wicked men who do not love the truth" -2RH 329, Ellen White
"Persons who pretend to believe the truth will come to us and urge upon us erroneous doctrines, which will unsettle our faith in present truth if we pay heed to them." -1RH Dec. , 1884, Ellen White
"I am charged to tell our people, that do not realize, that the devil has device after device, and he carries them out in ways that they do not expect. Satan's agencies will invent ways to make sinners out of saints. I tell you now, that when I am laid to rest, GREAT CHANGES WILL TAKE PLACE... I desire to warn all against the devices of the devil. I want the people to know that I warned them fully before my death" -Manuscript 1, Feb. 24, 1915, Ellen White.
It is truly time for God's people to get their naive heads out of the sand and face up to the reality of things that are really going on...
Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers, page 10,
"It should now be clearly understood that we are not really helping those who are determined to do evil, when we show them respect, and keep our words of reproof for those with whom the disaffected one is at enmity. A grave mistake has been and is being made in this matter. Shall the servants of Jehovah, into whose heart He puts enmity against every evil work, be assailed as not being right when they call evil evil, and good good? Those who feel so very peaceable in regard to the works of the men who are spoiling the faith of the people of God, are guided by a delusive sentiment.
There is to be a constant conflict between good and evil. Those who are enlightened by the Holy Spirit's power are to strive with every power of their being to snatch the prey from the seductive influences of men who refuse to obey the word of God, whether they be in high places or in low. Christ's property is not to pass out of His control into the control of the children of darkness.
If this matter were rightly understood and closely guarded, God's servants would feel a continual burden of responsibility to counterwork the efforts of the men who do not know what they are about, because they are enchanted by the delusive allurements of Satan. When God's people are fully awake to the danger of the hour, and work fully on Christ's side, there will be seen a sharp contrast between their course and that of those who are saying, "Good Lord, and good devil," and we shall see much firmer and more decided work done to counterwork the schemes of satanic agencies." -EG White
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/11/03 10:04 PM
I think I will say a little more. This is happening not only in our church but other denominations as well.
So-called Christian author, Richard Foster encourages us to utilize Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises...
"Ignatius of Loyola in his Spiritual Exercises constantly encouraged his readers to visualize the gospel stories... seek to live the experience, remembering the encouragement of Ignatius Loyola to apply all our senses to our task... Hence you can actually encounter the living Christ in the event... It can be more than an exercise of the imagination; it can be a genuine confrontation. Jesus Christ will actually come to you" . -Richard Foster, "celebration of Discipline; a path to spiritual growth" pg 26. Gail Riplinger in her book "New Age Bible versions" pg 437 tells how the church of England was started off on the teachings of Theosophy (and remember EG White said John Kellog's teachings were theosophy and pantheism). Then she says:
The new Age banner flies high over St. James Anglican Church off Piccadily Square. There 'Sufi Healing Order, Yoga Meditation Class, and Lifetime Astrology' are taught. To train the Lay Leaders for such esoteric meanderings, they begin with the occult Spiritual Exercises of Jesuit Ignatius Loyola. They follow up with a meditation ceremony celebrating the birth of Buddha." (by the way the birth of Buddha really symbolizes the birth of the "higher Self" or the God Self within... just so you know, which is what all these things are really all about.
The Great Controversy, page 554, Chapter Title: Can Our Dead Speak to Us?
"Satan beguiles men now as he beguiled Eve in Eden by flattery, by kindling a desire to obtain forbidden knowledge, by exciting ambition for self-exaltation. It was cherishing these evils that caused his fall, and through them he aims to compass the ruin of men. "Ye shall be as gods," he declares, "knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5. Spiritualism teaches "that man is the creature of progression; that it is his destiny from his birth to progress, even to eternity, toward the Godhead." And again: "Each mind will judge itself and not another." "The judgment will be right, because it is the judgment of self. . . . The throne is within you." Said a spiritualistic teacher, as the "spiritual consciousness" awoke within him: "My fellow men, all were unfallen demigods." And another declares: "Any just and perfect being is Christ."
"Before the last developments of the work of apostasy there will be a confusion of faith. There will not be clear and definite ideas concerning the mystery of God. One truth after another will be corrupted.
Spiritualism is about to take the world captive. Superhuman power is working in a variety of ways, and few have any idea as to what will be the manifestations of Spiritualism in the future." 3ST 188,199 EG White
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/13/03 07:07 AM
Very informative Claudia, and if you don;t mind please do post some more as I feel this is very important to know these things, and in order to know the conterfeit we must all know the truth.
Here is sometihng rather interesting that I found in the paper in regards to spiritualism, and unification of churches etc etc etc..
Click Here! We must indeed keep watch.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Edison
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/13/03 02:48 AM
Claudia
How can we find out more about Dr. Loveless? I would like to make sure about what is going on.
Thanks
email it to me if you would like.
P.S. I called LLU today and he is no longer the pastor of the Church but he is still working for LLU.
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/13/03 05:38 AM
Loveless stepped down (retired) in June 2000 and is no longer senior pastor at the Campus Hill church in Loma Linda. That position now belongs to Hyveth Williams.
If you want to read a partial transcript of Loveless' talk on spiritual exercies,
go here.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/13/03 05:55 AM
Correction: Hyveth Williams is no longer the senior pastor there. She was replaced by a Randy somebody who spoke at our Campmeeting in the summer of 2002. I think his name is Randy Roberts. I have seen him preaching several times on the LLBN (Loma Linda Broadcasting Network).
Posted By: Edison
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/13/03 08:57 AM
Cludia
"Dr Loveless also has held men's retreats that "add to your whole brain learning", according to a church brochure."
Can you Scan the Church Brochure and email it to me I would like to have that in my files.
wethreefive@bellsouth.net
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/18/03 03:42 AM
I just want to add my thanks as well. It is a perplexing problem. The only solution I can see is that Adventism has to become a grass roots movement again, which is the way all successful movements impact their surroundings, religous or otherwise.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/18/03 05:17 AM
I agree, Mark! Grassroots is more productive to the soul than a 'Wal-Mart'-ized system... We have been warned about getting "too big for our britches", and the cost of leaving the simplicity of the Gospel and It's Way of Life.
"Leaders and scholars", as well as laymen should feel the pull of the Spirit toward authentic conversion and proof of that in conduct, not mental assent, cultural religion, or safe conformity to human-build policies.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/19/03 05:21 AM
I'd never seen that quote by Sister White in 1915 that Claudia put in her post above. 1915 was the year that Sr. White died, so this statement is one of her last, a final warning to us. She knew what was in store for us in the future. God is gently alerting us to what we are facing today.
Here is her famous Omega statement:
quote:
Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians
and Ministers, page 53, paragraph 2
Finally my son said to me, "Mother, you ought to read at least some parts of the book, that you may see whether they are in harmony with the light that God has given you." He sat down beside me, and together we read the preface, and most of the first chapter, and also paragraphs in other chapters. As we read, I recognized the very sentiments against which I had been bidden to speak in warning during the early days of my public labors. When I first left the State of Maine, it was to go through Vermont and Massachusetts, to bear a testimony against these sentiments. "Living Temple" contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our
people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and personality of God. The statements made in "Living Temple" in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/19/03 05:33 AM
Are any SDA's doing seminars for the public on the New Age and Christianity. That would be something that people would be interested in and could be followed up by other outreach programs.
Also, can someone tell me what authors, books, magazines and other media are the leading authorities on modern spiritualism, whether for or against it. I'll check into some of the names Claudia mentioned, but I'd like to get a ranking of who is out front in leading the Christian and secular New Age movement.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/19/03 08:43 AM
Hi Mark,
You might want to read a book titled
Deceived by the New Age written by
Will Baron. I am reading it sort of but it is very interesting, and talks about how he infiltrated a church and spread 'new age' theology and stuff like that
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/19/03 05:47 PM
Church InfiltrationThat can be a topic in itself.
I remember when a young person who at that time was attending one of our two universities here in Fredericton, NB.
She became interested in our church and began attending church. She got involved in our more active church group within our church and soon requested Bible studies. She was subsequently baptized and became a member of our church.
Soon after that she claimed to be having problems with her father, an Anglican Minister (if I remember correctly), over her being baptized and becoming a member of the SDA Church. She was helped, counselled, and prayed for over this crisis in her life.
A short time after that she suddenly stopped attending church.
We later learned that it was all a charade as she was doing a student paper on her experience with the SDA Church in which she pretended to be interested in the church. She conjured up her crisis to see how the church members close to her over this whole period of her relationship with them would respond to her crisis.
I think the church came through for her in flying colours, even though she was pretending and not interested in the church at all.
I only wish we had seen her student report, article, or whatever it was that she had submitted.
This goes to show how easily a person can infiltrate and consequently
manipulate the church.
Even after saying all this, who knows how this may affect her later in life for God's Word does not return unto Him void (Isaiah 55:11).
quote:
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I, therefore, pray that all she learned through the Bible studies she received will accomplish its real purpose in her life and will save her in the end.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 02:38 AM
I wonder how much the RCC has infiltrated. Though I'm certainly not among those who see a Jesuit lurking around every corner, it stands to reason that some of the influences dividing the Adventist church these days must have origins in the Vatican.
Years ago I corresponded with an associate editor of the
Review about this, and he didn't believe any Jesuit infiltration into the church was possible. But I'm not so sure:
"Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side." GC 565-566
"Every principle of popery that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The popery that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation..." GC 571
What are these principles? How did the Jesuits operate way back when?
"Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters." GC 235
If we look at what secular historians wrote, we see that they went farther than infiltrating only the secular governments:
Bernard Wall,
The Vatican Story, Harper & Brothers, 1956; p. 226 --
"Ignatius's (Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order) intention that his men should be capable of occupying key positions in every field, in learning, in the missions, even in power politics, for the sake of the propagation of the faith, was fully realized."
A.H. Newman,
Manual of Church History, vol. 2, pp. 373-374 --
"The Jesuit missionary or worker in any sphere may adapt his dress, manner of life, and occupation to the exigencies of the occasion. He may disguise himself and figure as a Protestant or a Brahmin, if by so doing he can gain an entrance otherwise difficult for Catholic teaching."
From the Jesuits themselves --
Beyond All Horizons: Jesuits and the Missions, edited by Thomas J.M. Burke, S.J. 1957. Nihil Obstat: John A. Goodwine, J.C.D., Censor Librorum. Imprimatur: Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York.
p. 53 --
"...there actually were 'secret, disguised' Jesuits making their way into dozens of towns, cities, and countrysides all over Europe, and from the days of St. Ignatius up to our own times the sons of St. Ignatius have had not too infrequently to go secretly and in disguise if the Gospel of Christ [sic] was to make its way to ears longing to hear."
And Ellen White wrote,
"If the reader would understand the agencies to be employed in the
soon-coming contest, he has but to trace the record of the means which
Rome employed for the same object in ages past." GC 573
So do we have Jesuits in our midst? The testimony of EGW and the historians would seem to indicate that we do. Especially when we look at how things are changing right before our eyes.
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 02:47 AM
I agree whole heartedly John. I have and do attend some Bible seminars and have noticed certain books which are part of the 'required reading'(part of that mega-church business) that contain false theological teachings such as eternal damnation i.e. you will be burning in hell forever(when did the wicked inherit eternal life for this punishing?).
In order to know the counterfeit we must all know the truth and know what the techniques are as mentioned in the EGW quote's you provided.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 03:25 AM
Today while my prayer partner and friend were talking, she told me about a story in last weeks Primary Treasure (the church paper for primary age) then she read it to me. I am horrified, but not surprised. In this paper, intended for 7-10 year-olds, was a story that was telling children that if they are afraid of monsters in the dark, they should draw a picture of the monster, then tear it up and tell the moster that they have power over the monster (I've forgotten the exact words). The story goes on to tell children in simple terms how to practice visualization, i.e., imagine that you are sitting in Jesus lap, that He is playing ball with you. We aren't talking sanctified imagination thinking about heaven, but a spiritualistic technique called visualization, a technique also taught by Bill Loveless which opens the door of the mind for communication with demons. (I intend to find an extra copy or make a copy of the story, then I will post what it actually says.)
Consider that in our schools most of the science instructors no longer believe in a literal 7 day creation or a world wide flood because scientific discovery doesn't support it. Can you guess who is winning this argument and what direction our church is headed in this? It's not toward creationism. What does this have to do with spiritualism? Pull the plug on creation, and you have nothing to stand on. There is no Saviour, because there was no Creator, therefore no sin, so there is no need of a Saviour. The door is wide open for the evolutionist to believe any spiritualistic theory that appeals to his carnal nature. And what happens to those vulnerable young minds to whom they are presenting their heresies?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 04:07 AM
That's quite a story Daryl. Was the student's teacher aware of what she was doing? I think it would be appropriate to have spoken to the University staff on their research methods. It's not that we have anything to hide. It's a matter of honesty and using the time and effort of the church on something without it's consent. You were being experimented on without consent. I'm not suggesting that a big issue should have been made of it, but a kindly worded objection to the academic dean would have been in order I think.
But it does underscore how easy it is to infiltrate us. The Jesuits and any group that will assume a disguise are using dishonorable methods, methods that are foreign to Christ who said let your yes be yes and your no, no. Paul willingly became all things to all men that he might by all means win some, but neither he nor any of the Apostles lowered themselves to deception. A hallmark of the Christian faith is open, honest, transparent dealing.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 04:12 AM
Thanks Will. I think I have a copy of that but have never read it. I'll see if I can find it.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 04:15 AM
Let's say that we are riddled with Jesuits and New Age Pastors. And there is a large body of evidence this is a growing problem. What do we do?
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 04:34 AM
That is very scary information Linda. The devil is a lion on the prowl and knows his days are short!
Is there a way for your friend to educate the parents of the kids she teaches on the ill's of this new age visualization technique? That could be a start you know.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Will
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 04:52 AM
Good question John. There should be a way to handle this via the GC or the Church manual.
Also test the spirits, but one thing to remember that God has revealed this to us in His Word.
quote:
2 Timothy 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Linda Sutton
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 05:45 AM
Will, she's not the teacher. Her son is in primaries. Sadly, the women who teach in that division would probably see nothing wrong with it, even if it were pointed out to them. My friend had started to read the story to her son, but wouldn't finish it for obvious reasons.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 12/20/03 02:44 PM
Excellent answer and scripture reference Will. Preach the word, encourage, warn. Leave the results with God. Any other thoughts?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 01/13/04 12:46 AM
This idea of infiltration into our church has resurfaced in my mind as a result of things that have come to my attention over the last few days.
The fact that this student was so easily baptized and received into our church fellowship as member for the sole purpose of giving an inside version about our church goes to show how easily it can be done for more sinister reasons.
Our local church here was obviously easily manipulated by this one student, therefore, it tells me that it could also be an easy thing for our church to be infiltrated and manipulated by infiltrators working their way into leadership positions in our corporate church.
I think there are enough EGW quotes out there to warn us that this infiltration is actually going on, however, how does our SDA Church or any other church denomination appropriately respond to this? They are not any more immune to this than we are.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Immorality, the occult and manipulation in the church - 01/15/04 12:36 PM
We could learn some lessons from the early church and its experience with the infiltration of Judas and also from the later warnings of the Apostles that wolves would come in among us and ravage the sheep, and look at their counsel on how to respond.