God's love not unconditional
Posted By: danielw
God's love not unconditional - 08/12/04 04:07 AM
The doctrine of God's unconditional love is probably the worst error to enter the churches, Babylon and Laodicea, in the last 100 years.
Why is this error passed over so lightly? How did it ever get accepted in the first place? Does anyone have any thots/info on this?
quote:
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/12/04 05:44 AM
I think God's love is unconditional. His salvation isn't, however. Unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional salvation. Even God's "strange act" (Isaiah 28:21) of destroying sinners in the lake of fire will be an act of love, since sinners wouldn't be happy in the earth made new.
God is love (1 John 4:8), and He changes not (Malachi 3:6).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/12/04 08:08 AM
I agree with John.
PP 522.2
Satan deceives many with the plausible theory that God's love for His people is so great that He will excuse sin in them; he represents that while the threatenings of God's word are to serve a certain purpose in His moral government, they are never to be literally fulfilled. But in all His dealings with his creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. Such pardon would show the abandonment of the principles of righteousness, which are the very foundation of the government of God. It would fill the unfallen universe with consternation. God has faithfully pointed out the results of sin, and if these warnings were not true, how could we be sure that His promises would be fulfilled? That so-called benevolence which would set aside justice is not benevolence but weakness.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/12/04 09:55 AM
ouch.
quote:
The conditions of obtaining mercy of God, are simple and just and reasonable.
...
Those who have not humbled their souls before God in acknowledging their guilt, have not yet fulfilled the first condition of acceptance. If we have not experienced that repentance which is not to be repented of, and have not with true humiliation of soul and brokenness of spirit confessed our sins, abhorring our iniquity, we have never truly sought for the forgiveness of sin; and if we have never sought, we have never found the peace of God. The only reason why we do not have remission of sins that are past is that we are not willing to humble our hearts and comply with the conditions of the word of truth.
...
It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions, to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin.
...
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness
Above found in Steps to Christ
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/13/04 06:36 AM
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"
The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. SC 27
God's love towards the sinner is unconditional. There is nothing in us that causes Him to love us. There is nothing we can do to make Him love us more. He doesn't love us because we are good, but His loves makes us good.
God so loved that He gave. God has taken the initiative in our salvation. It is our job to cooperate with Him.
The only way any person can be lost is to resist the unconditional love of God shining from the cross which is leading him to repentence. The goodness of God leads us to repentence. Jesus, being lifted up, draws all unto Him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/12/04 07:16 PM
That's a nice quote, Mark. I'd like to add one along the same theme:
quote:
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. DA 763, 764
An important point to note is that it is sin which causes our destruction, not an arbitrary act of God. Because God is love, God hates sin, which destroys His creatures whom He loves, which is why He cannot unconditionally pardon sin. If fact, the thought of such a thing is incomprehensible.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/13/04 08:37 AM
Is there any inspired writing that supports this statement?
quote:
God's love towards the sinner is unconditional.
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/13/04 03:01 PM
I think John has already given a very good answer to that question.
I would ask, is there any Scripture or anything that EGW wrote which says that God's love is conditional?
Tom
[ September 03, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Tom Wetmore ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/13/04 05:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
Is there any inspired writing that supports this statement?
quote:
God's love towards the sinner is unconditional.
I'm not sure one can find the inspired words "unconditional love", however the concept is certainly there. This is a good question, and if I have time I'd like to research it further, but off the top of my head Romans 5 comes to mind. Consider vss 6-10:
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
Paul contrasts the high ideal of man's love with God's agape in that while a person might choose to die for another if value is perceived in the one being benefited by the sacrifice, God's love sacrifices while we are enemies, while we are sinners before we have done anything to affect God.
God loves us because He is love, not because of what we can do for Him.
Another example of God's unconditional love that springs to mind is in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. God could have chosen to allow Adam and Eve to suffer the consequences of the choice and die. But because He loved them, He went after them, and provided them a covering (representing, of course, the covering of the righteousness of Christ), once again before Adam and Eve had done anything, illustrating the principle of unconditional love.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/14/04 06:42 AM
I just performed a search on "conditional love" on the E.G. White Estate website and it came back - The search returned 0 items relevant to "conditional love":
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/published-writings.html Dan, what's the motivation behind your question?
quote:
The doctrine of God's unconditional love is probably the worst error to enter the churches, Babylon and Laodicea, in the last 100 years.
Why is this error passed over so lightly? How did it ever get accepted in the first place? Does anyone have any thots/info on this?
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/14/04 01:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
Is there any inspired writing that supports this statement?
quote:
God's love towards the sinner is unconditional.
E. G. White uses the phrase "unmerited love", which is synonymous to "unconditional love".
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/15/04 04:20 AM
Thank you Tom-san for attempting to answer my question.
No one has yet shown where unconditional love is taught in inspired writings. Does the phrase "unmerited love" mean "unconditional love"? A check on Roget's Thesaurus gives 3 entries for "unmerited".
1. gratuitous: not necessary
2. unjust: not fair
3. unworthy: not of value, undeserving
Only undeserving fits this instance of its use, and it is plain to all that "undeserving" is not close to "unconditional".
What is the antonym of "love"? (antonym = a word having a meaning opposite to that of another word)
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/15/04 05:40 AM
Most often people seem to think that "hate" is the opposite of "love". But I've heard it said that this can't be true, that "apathy" is the opposite of love, since apathy means you just don't care one way or the other. When you hate someone or something you still care about them, albeit in a negative way.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/15/04 07:41 AM
To merit something is to deserve it. Unmerited love means the love is not deserved. Assuming for the moment that God's love is conditional, what would the condition be? How would such a condition not be meriting God's love?
I'm failing to see a distinction between "unmerited" and "unconditional".
I think God's action towards Adam and Eve after their fall illustrate the principle of unconditional love. God loved them and unilaterally took action to save them. They had fulfilled no conditions which would have led God to sacrifice His Son on their behalf.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/15/04 08:01 AM
I don't know if this will be helpful, but the following statement came to mind:
I ask, How can I present this matter as it is? The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. If you would gather together everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason. Standing in the presence of their Creator and looking upon the unsurpassed glory which enshrouds His person, they are looking upon the Lamb of God given from the foundation of the world to a life of humiliation, to be rejected of sinful men, to be despised, to be crucified. Who can measure the infinity of the sacrifice!
Christ for our sakes became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. And any works that man can render to God will be far less than nothingness. My requests are made acceptable only because they are laid upon Christ's righteousness. The idea of doing anything to merit the grace of pardon is fallacy from beginning to end. "Lord, in my hand no price I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling." FW 24
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/15/04 08:07 AM
quote:
What is the antonym of "love"? (antonym = a word having a meaning opposite to that of another word) [/QB]
C. S. Lewis supposedly wrote, "The opposite of love is not hate, it is power."
(I say "supposedly" because I just have the quote, not a reference).
Elie Wiesel wrote:
The opposite of love is not hate,
it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness,
it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy,
it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death,
it's indifference.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 03:08 AM
Would Christ saying to love even our enemies in Matthew 5:43-45 (quoted below) testify to God's unconditional love?
quote:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 09:02 AM
Yes, the opposite of
LOVE is HATE.
And God does hate sometimes.
quote:
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
This doctrine of "unconditional love" was not generally known when i was growing up in the 1960-70s. It is possible some "scholars" were already promoting it, but it was not generally known until the middle 1990s or so.
It seems to have come largely from the "peace, love, sex, drugs, rock n roll" movement of the 1960s.
What is the end result of "unconditional love"? It is of course Universalism. This is the natural result of such teaching.
Just try googleing "unconditional love". Other than the movie and song of that title, it mostly brings up pagan, yoga, and homosexual sites. Google "unconditional love" sda, and the first site that comes up is the SDA Gay and Lesbian site. They state there: "This list is dedicated to the proposition that God loves lesbian and gay people unconditionally in spite of many messages from representatives of the church that have presented a contrary view."
Universalism is one of the last big messages that false pastors will give to the churches. This is prophesied in the original 1858 Great Controversy, chapter 35: quote:
The people turned upon the ministers with bitter hate, and reproached them, telling them, You have not warned us. You told us all the world was to be converted, and cried, Peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was aroused. You have not told us of this hour, and those who warned us of it you said were fanatics, and evil men, who would ruin us. But the ministers, I saw, did not escape the wrath of God. Their sufferings were ten-fold greater than their people's.
Looks like God is angry at those false shepherds.
If you wish to see a rebuttal to "Beyond Belief" where the author states: "This is the key issue here", look here.
I actually had this email exchange with someone.
"If God's love is unconditional, then if Satan repented now, he would be accepted back into heaven." "Of course" was the reply. This is the end result of this thinking - God's love is unconditional. It is Universalism under a different name.
May we show love to God and our fellow man, in the truth of the Spirit.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 07:15 PM
I would like to see a response to the post I wrote at 10:41 on 8/14. Thanks.
You appear to be arguing that God will love us if we are good, but will hate us if we are bad. Am I understanding you correctly?
The assertion that believing that God's love is unconditional will lead to Universalism is false. There are many who believe God's love is unconditional - God loves because God is love - but that not all will be saved.
The Spirit of Prophesy comments on this issue:
"God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
...
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." GC 541-3
God has created us with free will, and the possibility of rejecting Him. Because God loves us unconditionally does not mean we will be saved. His love respects our choice to spurn Him.
Regarding the question of love, it's enough to appeal to our own experience. If you have a spouse or child or parent who is lost at last, and you witness your loved ones existence mercifully ending in the lake of fire, are you going to hate them? To ask such a question is to answer it. Is God's heart less tender than ours?
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 09:05 PM
Good points Tom.
I also wonder about the usage of the word "hate" in the Bible. Does it always means "hate" the way we think of it?
Genesis 29:30,31
"And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, He opened her womb: but Rachel was barren."
Here we have it said that Jacob loved Leah, but not as much as Rachel; then the very next verse says Leah was hated. Could "hate" sometimes mean "to love less"?
Luke 14:26
"If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 09:35 PM
I must say that I am troubled by this discussion, just as I was equally troubled by the very same discussion over on TRO. After some pondering the topic I identified what I think is the root of the problem that has caused this perplexity. I believe that the problem is the limited scope of the premise of the topic. The end result has been a conflict of semantics. The word study is far too restricted and tends to diminish the ultimate message about God's love that those using the phrase "unconditional love" fully intend. The focus has been primarily on one aspect of the meaning of the word "unconditional", namely "without condition". It has not taken into account the full meaning of the word, nor some very illuminating synonyms that are frequently used in Scripture and by EGW to describe the quality of God's love.
The Oxford English dictionary defines the word as "Not limited by or subject to conditions or stipulations; absolute, unlimited, complete." The highlighted words illuminate what I believe is the root of the problem with this discussion. To suggest that God's love is not unconditional is to actually say that it is quite the opposite, that it is conditional, less than absolute (less than perfect or pure), limited, incomplete. The end result is to put a limit or restriction on God's love, to put it in a language box into which it clearly does not fit.
Pulling out my handy Roget's Thesaurus I find there are 3 basic categories of synonyms that flesh out the full meaning of the word "unconditional". They are words expressing "completeness, no qualification and no restriction." Under the first category are words such as: complete, thorough, exhaustive, intensive, comprehensive, all-encompassing, radical, pervasive, utter, absolute, total... Under the second: unqualified, unrestricted, unlimited, unhampered, unreserved, unequivocal, unmistakable, positive, absolute, definitive, complete, final... And under the third category: unconfined, uncircumscribed, unbounded, unmeasured, unlimited, limitless, perfect, full...
Now I think if we just broaden our word search to include even a few of these words that express the same or quite similar concepts as "unconditional" we will see that Scripture and EGW both use them frequently to describe God's love. Speaking of EGW, it seems clear to me that by her usage of the word "unconditional" most frequently in conjunction with "surrender" she is ascribing its full meaning, especially the concept of complete and absolute surrender. Certainly God's love cannot be described as conditional any more than our surrender can be conditional.
Tom
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 10:01 PM
What's TRO?
I had trouble completely following your line of thought, but I believe I was thinking along the same lines as you are suggesting when I posted about unmerited love. I don't see a distinction between unmerited love and uncondional love, and the SOP does use the expression "unmerited love."
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 10:21 PM
Daniel,
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
This doctrine of "unconditional love" was not generally known when i was growing up in the 1960-70s. It is possible some "scholars" were already promoting it, but it was not generally known until the middle 1990s or so.
It seems to have come largely from the "peace, love, sex, drugs, rock n roll" movement of the 1960s.
This observation highlights a very significant flaw of the apparent initial premise of this topic that Ellen White never used 'unconditional love' as an expression of God's love, therefore it must be a false idea. Well, she did not use the phrase because it was not a phrase that was used by anyone in her time. As you pointed out, you had never heard it when you were growing up, for good reason. The phrase was first used by psychologist Eric Fromm who was merely a teenager when EGW died. The phrase was not linked to God's love until sometime later. Saying EGW never used a phrase that originated after her death proves little and largely ignores the parallel and synonymous concepts that she does frequently use.
quote:
What is the end result of "unconditional love"? It is of course Universalism. This is the natural result of such teaching.
Just try googleing "unconditional love". Other than the movie and song of that title, it mostly brings up pagan, yoga, and homosexual sites...
These extremist examples really do not reflect the ideas of anyone I know of who has described God's love as unconditional and unfortunately misdirect the fundamental concept presented by the phrase. The fact that new agers, universalists or homosexuals have distorted a valuable Christian idea does not make the idea false.
I continue to see that the danger of the direction of this topic is to put God in a box and somehow putting human parameters on His love. While understandably we can only vaguely understand His love in the familiar terms of human emotion and logic, in the end they are inadequate.
One of the consequences of that limiting approach is to assume that if God loves he would act and respond toward the objects of his love as we would do. And we further limit God by assuming that if his love is rejected that he would have to respond in familiar ways that humans do.
It is sadly a normal human reaction to such rejection to stop loving and to those who further act against us to retaliate, punish and get our revenge. We feel justified because the evil person got his due. We have a hard time feeling any compassion toward evil people. (How many of us actually felt sorry for Sadaam after he was dragged from his pathetic little hole in the ground?)
I think we need to step back and carefully consider our presuppositions and the ultimate direction this discussion is taking us. I am not so sure that it is leading us to a higher and more positive appreciation of God's love.
One thing that I see repeated is the presupposition that God's anger, wrath, hatred of evil are the same as we humanly would feel and act on such emotions. We naturally assume that hate is the antithesis or opposite of love. However just as John has pointed out, the true opposite of love is really apathy. Think about it. When we cease to care, become indifferent and feel nothing toward another, their life or death means nothing to us. We don't even feel anger toward such a person. Love is truly absent.
I cannot see God as apathetic, even toward Satan. Why? Because His love never ceases. Whatever actions He must take to end sin once and for all are not the actions of an apathetic God but are the actions of a God who cares more deeply than any of us can comprehend. An apathetic God would not take matters into his own hands, absorb the ultimate consequences of sin to save a pathetic little planet in his vast creation. He would step back and just let humanity ultimately destroy itself into extinction, no matter how long it would take. If he exercised hate and wrath as we humans know those emotions, he would have wiped out the devil, rather than just throwing him out of heaven. And if he hadn’t done that he would have turned Adam and Eve back into a lump of clay and started over.
Tom
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/16/04 10:35 PM
Tom,
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
What's TRO?
TRO is The Remant-Online forum from where I assume Daniel imported some of the ideas he is now putting forward in this topic on this forum. That forum had an extremely long-winded and very tedious "discussion" of this whole notion.
Tom
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 03:30 AM
I have never seen any discussion on TRO of this subject.
"Unmerited" is not closely related to "unconditional".
Suppositions and conjectures are not what this subject is about.
This subject is about the worst error to creep into the church in the last 100 years. It has also been shown how this doctrine, or a derivative of it, will be THE major false doctrine in the last days.
Let's uplift the righteousness of God, showing his mercy and judgment. When Jesus came the Jews focused on the law to the exclusion of mercy, and here in the last days we are in danger of making the opposite mistake - focusing on mercy to the exclusion of the law.
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 04:22 AM
Daniel W,
I'm not under any delusions about God saving everybody unconditionally; far from it. I reckon that somewhere along the lines of 95% of all people now living will end up in the lake of fire when all is said and done. Probably more than that. But God loves those people, and will continue to love them until their last moment of life, even as they're being destroyed because they refused to avail themselves of the remedy for sin.
Even in light of the facts of eternal damnation I believe the Bible and SOP teach that God loves unconditionally. He loves all of His created beings, no matter what they might do. Otherwise He wouldn't have set into motion the plan of salvation before man even took the first step back towards God, as Tom E. has mentioned.
But God won't unconditionally save those who have sinned, certainly not. There are strict conditions attached to the gift of eternal life for humans who have fallen. (The angels who fell are beyond saving.)
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 05:01 AM
Yes, it is true that God loves us so much he gave us his only begotten son, even while we were sinners. Praise God!
So while his love is an attribute flowing out of himself, regardless of our response to it, it will finally be cut off from all those who reject him. This will happen soon at the close of probation for all living then, and has occurred to individuals thruout all history, starting when Lucifer made his final rejection of mercy in heaven.
Original Great Controversy:
quote:
It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof.
...
The last tear for sinners had been shed, the last agonizing prayer offered, the last burden had been borne. The sweet voice of mercy was no more to invite them.
The doctrine of unconditional love is diametrically opposed to this. It says there are no conditions to receiving the mercy of God. But those who "make no effort" for their own salvation, will be eternally lost. Follow the logic in this erroneous doctrine to its logical conclusion, and you'll see it is universalism in 21st century garb.
Let us be busy spreading the 3rd Angel's Message warning people to get ready for the Time of Trouble soon to come ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 06:42 AM
Dan
If God's love is not uncondtional then it must be conditional and so must have conditions. What are these conditions? Are there any Bible or SOP references to conditions of God's love? Not conditions of salvation which we most likely all agree exist.
Mike Carner
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 07:56 AM
quote:
"Unmerited" is not closely related to "unconditional".
Sure it is! What would be the example of some condition we could fulfill which would entitle us to be loved by God which would not be simultaneously meriting it?
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 08:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
So while his love is an attribute flowing out of himself, regardless of our response to it, it will finally be cut off from all those who reject him.
God's love is not cut off. God is love. He can't cut Himself off. He cannot cease being what He is. God's love is not something He turns on and off like a fountain.
"This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 764
Far from being cut off, it is the love of God which destroys the wicked. (or it's sin, depending on your perspective)
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 10:05 AM
There ARE conditions to receiving the mercy of God Mike-san. You may want to read my 2004-08-12 03:55 AM post.
I do not
merit my dad giving me a new car, but if it is
unconditional, then he
has to give it to me.
God actually kills the wicked with the 2nd death. It is not just that he reveals his love which the wicked cannot stand so they die.
A Word to the Little Flock: quote:
...the Almighty breathed from his high throne, on the City, a breath of devouring fire, which came down on them, and burnt them up, "root and branch."
...
This will not take place, until Jesus has finished his priestly office in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and lays off his priestly attire, and puts on his most kingly robes, and crown, to ride forth on the cloudy chariot, to "thresh the heathen in anger," and deliver his people.
...
Jesus raised his mighty glorious arm, laid hold of the gate and swung it back on its golden hinges, and said to us, You have washed your robes in my blood, stood stiffly for my truth, enter in.
Does he thresh the heathen in love, or in anger?
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 03:11 PM
Hi Daniel
I have no problem with there being conditions to receiving God's mercy, recieving mercy would be the same as receiving salvation. But I asked for some references to the conditions for God loving us. Are love and mercy the same thing?
Are love and receiving love the same thing? I don't think so. Think of the story of the prodigal son. While he was in the far off country did his father love him? Yes, he was watching for him every day. Was he receiving that love, experiencing the benefits of it? No? Why? He had cut himself off from his father's love. When did he receive it? When he went back home. So there father loved him at home or away but he had to choose to place himself in a position to receive that love. So the reception of love has conditions. We must choose to place ourselves in a position to receive God's love which is already there.
So, again, what are the conditions for God loving us, not for our reception of that love?
The fact that God will destroy those who ultimately refuse to receive His love does not mean He does not love them. Since God is love all that He does is a manifestation of that love, including His "strange act" of destroying the wicked.
Mike Carner
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/17/04 03:37 PM
Just had another thought on this subject.
If God's love is conditional that means He would love us in response to our meeting those conditions. This is the basis of pagan worship. The idea that we must do something to make the gods loves us. If my god is angry I must do something to appease him, if its bad enough I may need to offer my child as a human sacrifice.
In paganism the human is the actor or initiater and the god is the reacter in the relationship. I have done abc and now my god will do xyz.
In Christianity God is the initiater and we are the respondants. We love Him because He first loved us. Not the other way around.
Mike
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 06:29 AM
"This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 764
1. The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of God.
2. The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3. They have cut themselves off from life, by separating themselves from God.
4. God's presence is a consuming fire to the wicked.
God does not change Himself and reveal Himself one way to the wicked and another to the rightoues. He is who He is (Jehova).
"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil" (Isa. 33:14, 15)
"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: 'O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will." GC 35
1. The sufferings of the Jews (which are typical of the final destruction of the wicked) are often represented as being by the direct decree of God.
2. This is how Satan seeks to conceal his own work.
"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."(continuation of the above quote)
1. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.
2. God leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.
"It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him." DA 480
1. It is not the hope of reward that caused Christ's followers to follow Him.
2. Nor is it the fear of punishment.
3. It is the matchless love of Christ revealed at the cross.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 05:51 PM
John-san, In re-reading the posts i see where i did not answer one question of yours:
I also wonder about the usage of the word "hate" in the Bible. Does it always means "hate" the way we think of it? No it doesn't, which is why i left out the obvious different usages, and even the borderline usages. I tried to be careful to quote only those instances where the meaning is too clear to be misunderstood - that God does hate sometimes.
Didn't God send his angel to kill 185,000 Assyrians once, and send his Spirit on many different OT people like Samson, who promptly went out and killed 1,000 heathen? Didn't God send judgements on the Egyptians and kill all their first-born? Where did fire and brimstone come from to burn up some cities given over to homosexuality? And in the most amazing instance of God killing, he was sorry that he even made us humans, and killed probably hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, only saving 8 in the ark.
Their time of probation was past, and they perished. In the same manner, there will be another close of probation soon, and this time it will be for the whole planet again.
Most everyone who believes in "unconditional love", also tends to play down God's attribute of justice. It is nice to see a few posters here that still uphold the justice aspect of God. What i'm trying to show, is that taken to its logical conclusion, "unconditional love" leads to universalism. I've met this again and again.
It may not be news to viewers of this post, but there is determined work going on now to bring all the world's religions into one. Two years ago the evangelical representatives and Catholic representatives came to an agreement that Jews do not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, basically because the promises made to them in the OT are unconditional. Of course if that is true, then there is no reason for Muslims, Hindus, Evolutions etc. to believe in Jesus either to be saved.
Even some Adventists are caught up in this. The head of Adventist/Muslim relations uses this "unconditional love" meme to give support to his belief that the Muslim god - Allah, is the same as the Christian god - the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. If you wish, you can see our email exchange here:
Is the Muslim God and the Christian God the Same? The story of the prodigal son is very touching. But does it teach unconditional love? Please allow me the liberty to change the parable a bit:
The son went out from his father, and beat up some of his servants. After awhile, he came back and harassed and beat up some more. Then another time, he wounded some and drove them off. Finally one day he caught the father's other son, and killed him, thinking to get the entire vineyard for himself. Luke 20:15
quote:
"...What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?" (him in this instance)
What will he do?
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 07:05 PM
Hi Daniel
When a parent punishes a child do they stop loving them at that time?
What about family members that have turned someone over to the police for there crimes, do they not love the person? An example: the brother of Ted Kazinski, the Unibomber. Did he hate his brother and so turn Him in? No he still loved his brother but turned him in to protect others and see justice done.
What if you had an 18 year old son that was being a bad influence on younger siblings or abusive to other family members. And nothing you tried got him to change. You would likely tell him he had to move out. Why, because you hated him? I would hope not. But because of your love and concern for the rest of your family. Would you still love your son? I would hope so.
In the same way God's love will cause him to remove the finally impenetant from the Universe by destoying them to protect the rest.
Pastor Mike
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 08:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
Most everyone who believes in "unconditional love", also tends to play down God's attribute of justice. It is nice to see a few posters here that still uphold the justice aspect of God. What i'm trying to show, is that taken to its logical conclusion, "unconditional love" leads to universalism.
In order to show something, you need to do more than simply assert it. Please provide a point by point argument that shows that if one believes God's love is unconditional, he will be led to believe in universalism.
I have argued that this reasoning is false, because it is the love of God which destroys the wicked, as noted in the quotes of my preceeding post. Here's one of them:
"By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 764
God is love. He cannot not love. The fact that He loves, does not mean all will be saved, because of free will. One can choose to be lost, and God will respect that choice, but making that choice does not cause God to stop loving.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 08:06 PM
Nice thoughts Mike. The Spirit of Prophesy points out that it is also in the best interest of the lost themselves that God allows them to be destroyed.
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/18/04 11:34 PM
Some personal empirical evidence:
I first believed in the unconditional love of God when I became a for-real Christian (in the Methodist church) in 1978. Long before the middle 1990s that DanielW mentioned earlier. Then when I became an SDA in 1979 I still believed it. Then later I left the church for a number of years, and still believed it during that time. (I was one of those who left not over doctrine, but over personalities, behaviors, etc.) Now that I'm back I still believe it.
But not at any time has this belief pushed or drawn me towards universalism! Not that I can tell, anyway.
Posted By: kubuli
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 01:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Carner:
Dan
If God's love is not uncondtional then it must be conditional and so must have conditions. What are these conditions? Are there any Bible or SOP references to conditions of God's love? Not conditions of salvation which we most likely all agree exist.
Mike Carner
Most do not make this distinction, hence the unnecessary debate on the issue.
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 03:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kubuli:
Most do not make this distinction, hence the unnecessary debate on the issue. [/QB]
Just because some people do not make a distinction between God's love and being saved does not mean we should not discuss the subject.
The issue is not if people do make a distinction but if they should make one. That is what this "debate" is all about.
There is no more important subject than God's love. That after all is the subject we will be studying throughout eternity.
Pastor Mike
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 04:05 AM
Sorry John-san, my wording should've been more precise:
This doctrine of "unconditional love" was not generally known when i was growing up in the 1960-70s. It is possible some "scholars" were already promoting it, but it was not generally known until the middle 1990s or so.
What i meant was in the SDA church. As far as i know, the term "unconditional love" was not used widely in SDA literature until around the middle '90s. It was in some material before then, but not general-speak.
Does anyone know if this doctrine is official SDA doctrine? I know it is here in Japan, but wondered about at the GC level?
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 04:35 AM
Daniel
There is only one set of official doctrines for the church, that is the 27 fundamental beliefs. They are the same the world over.
I just quickly skimmed through them and they don't seem to directly deal with this issue. The term unconditional love doesn't occur. Unless I missed it in my quick perusal, but I don't think so.
Pastor Mike
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 06:12 AM
I did a thorough search on the GC website last year, and could not find anything regarding unconditional love
However, the Japanese SDA Union official home page DID have a "unconditional love" blurb on it. It has since been removed
It is good to see that this doctrine has not been officially adopted, but it is very prevalent in official church publications such as the Review, Sabbath School lessons etc. etc.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 02:52 PM
I just read 10 minutes ago on an other thread that Mike-san found this forum thru Pastor O'Fill's forum, so i went to have a look. Somewhere i've heard the name, and even seen the website before, but never looked into it much. However, there is a very interesting article regarding this very issue: "unconditional love". I'm not sure how accurate it is fact wise, but what i read on this particular point seems to be right on:
Richard O'Fill's comments on unconditional love BTW, welcome to MSDAOL Pastor Mike
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 04:19 PM
Here is the section dealing with unconditional love from Pastor O'Ffill's sermon:
"Think of the term "unconditional love" for a moment, and let's walk through the concept. In the first place, God is love. To that extent God's love is unconditional because He was love before there was anyone to love. God's love is one of His attributes.
Is it true that God loves us unconditionally? The answer is Yes and No depending on our circumstances. We have said that God is love and, therefore, it would stand to reason that He loves us unconditionally. But this would not be because of who we are, rather who He is. Did you follow that? He does not love us unconditionally because we are such loving and lovable creatures but because He is all loving.
On the other hand, God's unconditional love is not expressed to us unconditionally, or else He would not have had to send His Son to die for us. That created a tremendously costly condition. So that I could understand this better, I took another look at the most important text of all, which is John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." This text spotlights the love of God, but seen up close, it is hardly what could be called unconditional love. The conditional aspects of the text are first, that Jesus would have to die, and second, that we would have to believe on Him.
The bottom line of the philosophies that are being tossed around these days even in the church is that God accepts us the way we are. The word "acceptance" then is connected with the term "unconditional love."
The impression is given that when you come to Christ you do not have to change. To be sure, we can't change until we do come to Him, but I greatly fear that the hidden agenda of the false gospel that is being preached in many places might be expressed in the words, "Keep the world, but give me Jesus."
We often hear the story of the Prodigal Son as an example of God's unconditional love. The point is made that the father accepted the boy just as he was. The truth is that he did not. He received the boy just as he was, but then he was quick to give him a bath and put clean clothes on him.
Though the love of God is unconditional because it is what He is, His love doesn't manifest itself to us without condition. We must understand this or we will miss the point of what the gospel is about. The fact is the love of God is unconditional, but it causes change in all who come to Him. If it does not, it is not the gospel but something like what Fromm taught."
http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/broken_cisterns.shtmlI agree with this. Based on who God is His love is unconditional but there are conditions to our realizing, fully experiencing, receiving, and benefitting from this love.
God's love meets us where we are and radically transforms us. It puts self to death and implants the life of Christ in its place, so that it is no longer I but Christ. Christ's life being lived out in me brings me into perfect harmony with the law of God.
Pastor Mike
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 04:34 PM
Well stated by Pastor O'Ffill. Thanks for the find, guys.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/19/04 07:13 PM
From the pastor's sermon,
"On the other hand, God's unconditional love is not expressed to us unconditionally, or else He would not have had to send His Son to die for us."
I'm having some trouble understanding this. The logic seems to be since God had to send His Son to die for us, this proves God's unconditional love is not expressed uncondionally. He goes on to say, "This text spotlights the love of God, but seen up close, it is hardly what could be called unconditional love. The conditional aspects of the text are first, that Jesus would have to die, and second, that we would have to believe on Him."
Saying that God's love is unconditional means there are no conditions placed on God that make Him love us. It was not necessary for Christ to die for us in order for God to love us, but God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. The above logic seems a bit confused to me.
A bit further he says, "Though the love of God is unconditional because it is what He is, His love doesn't manifest itself to us without condition. We must understand this or we will miss the point of what the gospel is about. The fact is the love of God is unconditional, but it causes change in all who come to Him. If it does not, it is not the gospel but something like what Fromm taught."
The last part of the paragraph is clear, and makes the main point I think he is trying to make. The first part is a bit unclear, and perhaps I'm being nit-picky, but it may be an important point worth discussing, so I'll go ahead and nit pick.
To manifest is to make an appearance or to be revealed. God manifests His love to all, without condition. Romans 1:19 points this out. However, whereas the manifestion itself is done without conditions, such manifestion imposes conditions on those upon whom it is manifested.
Mike went on to say, "Based on who God is His love is unconditional but there are conditions to our realizing, fully experiencing, receiving, and benefitting from this love.
God's love meets us where we are and radically transforms us. It puts self to death and implants the life of Christ in its place, so that it is no longer I but Christ. Christ's life being lived out in me brings me into perfect harmony with the law of God."
Amen!
Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/20/04 01:04 AM
Tom,
That was essentially my reaction too.
Tom
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/20/04 01:29 AM
I have to catch a train for Tokyo in 30 minutes, so can't spend long here, but for a few quick takes on the article.... While admitting that there are phrases that could be worded better: "Is it true that God loves us unconditionally? The answer is Yes and No depending on our circumstances." (The answer is not yes AND no, but either yes OR no), one major point is clearly brought out - the term "unconditional love" is of recent origin, and has a meaning that is totally foreign to the Bible.
BTW, God does not just "allow" the wicked to die at the end, he physically, actively, burns them up. Re-read the flood story again to see how God actively destroys sometimes. No doubt it hurts him too, but he is going to deal with the sin problem once and for all in the near future. Let's get ready!
Posted By: my little friend
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/20/04 01:32 AM
There is a difference I think between having God love us (the saved and the lost) while insisting that we allow Him be our Lord and Master or instead expecting Him to love us in a wishy-washy sentimental way that would allow us to be arrogant and presumptious and self destructive.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/20/04 02:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
BTW, God does not just "allow" the wicked to die at the end, he physically, actively, burns them up. Re-read the flood story again to see how God actively destroys sometimes. No doubt it hurts him too, but he is going to deal with the sin problem once and for all in the near future. Let's get ready!
It is sin that destroys, Dnaiel-san. That is what God is trying to save us from. "Every man who is lost destroys himself." (PH149 - 35,36)
"It will be seen that Satan's rebllion against God has resulted in ruin to himself, and to all that choose to become his subjects. He has represented that great good would result from transgression; but it will be seen that 'the wages of sin is death.' Rom. 6:23"(FLB - 357)
"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.... When men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest." GC 35, 36.
"This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is 'alienated from the life of God.' Christ says, 'All they that hate Me love death.' Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 763, 764.
Destruction takes place when the glory of God meets with sin. Sin cannot abide in God's presence. God is a consuming fire. Isaiah says, "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously." (Isaiah 33:16, 17).
God is love, and that love is a consuming fire. Sin cannot abide in the presence of God, but the righteous can. God does not change. He is what He is. But while the righteous can abide with the devouring fire that is God, sin cannot, so those who choose to cling to sin will be destroyed.
Please note "this is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God."
This is the important point.
It is NOT an act of arbitrary power.
It is true there is language in inspiration which speaks of God destroying the wicked, but we should bear in mind that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits. This is reasonable, since God is sovereign over His universe. For example, Isaiah tells us that God created evil. (He actually quotes God as saying that "I create evil" Isaiah 45:7). In other spots God is presented as sending evil spirits to lie in His behalf.
There are two problems with presenting God as being arbitrarily responsible for the death of the wicked. First of all, it does a terrible misjustice to His character. Secondly, it makes light of the destructive power of sin. The idea is that sin in itself is not so bad, and if it weren't for God, we could live forever with it. But sin is a hideous murderer, from whose power God longs to deliver us.
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/20/04 11:15 PM
While it's true that sin is the ultimate destroyer, God does actually kill:
"The Lord rained brimstone and fire out of heaven upon the cities [Sodom and Gomorrah] and the fruitful plain;..."
{PP 162.2}
"God visited them [the sons of Aaron] with His wrath; fire went forth from His presence and destroyed them."
{3T 295.2}
"Fire flashing from the cloud [of the Lord's presence] consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."
{PP 401.1} (Korah's rebellion)
"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits."
{GC 614.2}
"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. . . It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace."
{GC 543.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/21/04 01:46 AM
quote:
Hey, you're getting into a whole nuther thread! Well I guess the original post has already digressed anyway. But I see a relation in the impact on how one views God.
Is He someone looking to punish us if we step out of line, or does He in love try to lead us in the direction we need to go to avoid death? Is His motto, "My way, or the highway!"
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/21/04 01:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by John:
"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. . . It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace."
{GC 543.3}
I guess I should have commented on this one, since it's on the same subject.
I agree that God will destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. However, what causes their destruction? Is it an arbitrary act on the part of God, or is it simply the fact that sin cannot abide in God's presence?
It is sin which is destructive, not God. God is seeking to save us from the destructive power of sin.
God does not need to act arbitrarily to destroy sin. He must act arbitrarily in order to keep sin from destroying, which He has chosen to do in order to allow the goverment of Satan's devisings an opportunity to develop, so that intelligent beings with free will can compare the two governments and make a choice. But sin must come to an end, so God will allow sin to fulfill its destiny, which is death.
Posted By: danielw
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/22/04 04:22 PM
Had a good time in Tokyo, and several people at church showed interest in the original 1858 Great Controversy which was heartening to see
I re-read the last few chapters of the above-named book over and over and over in the train. There were a few places that seemed pertinent to this discussion:
quote:
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased.
quote:
It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof.
quote:
The people turned upon the ministers with bitter hate, and reproached them, telling them, You have not warned us. You told us all the world was to be converted, and cried, Peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was aroused. You have not told us of this hour, and those who warned us of it you said were fanatics, and evil men, who would ruin us. But the ministers, I saw, did not escape the wrath of God. Their sufferings were ten-fold greater than their people's.
quote:
The false shepherds were signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet.
We have to be about giving the 3rd Angel's Message. Let's re-read it, and follow the simple message to give the warning to all the world; instead of teaching false doctrines dressed in pretty language packaged by psychologists.
Posted By: Dora
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/22/04 05:05 PM
Maybe I am digressing from the subject, or maybe there is already a thread on here addressing my question.
Over and over I read about "the 1858 edition of the Great Controversy," as though all of the other editions should be ignored. If there is not a thread started on here concerning this, could there be? Are you saying that some of the SOP books are good, and some are not? If we allude to this thought on here, but do not go into depth about it, I feel that we are being asked to accept something without really knowing why.
Would someone please comment. I don't mean just one person, I wonder if there may be others on here who are as puzzled as I, as to why the GC I have in my library is not "the one" to read? It says, "copyright 1888, 1907,1911, by Mrs. E.G.White." "copyright renewed, 1939, and Text copyright, 1950."
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/22/04 05:31 PM
I agree that the GC posts are going off topic and consequently should be further discussed as a separate topic in either the SDA Church Concerns forum or in the SDA Church Issues forum.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/24/04 06:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
I agree that the GC posts are going off topic and consequently should be further discussed as a separate topic in either the SDA Church Concerns forum or in the SDA Church Issues forum.
The question of unconditional love has to do with God's character. Why does He love us? Is His love subject to conditions? What happens if we don't meet those conditions?
One view of God sees God as presenting conditions which must be met, and if they're not, then the sinner is subject to God's wrath. It sees "uncoditional love" as a dangerous idea, because it leads to universalism and undercuts the seriousness of sin.
Another view sees unconditional love as an essential part of God's character, and that there is no danger of leading to univeralism or undercutting the seriousness of sin. Universalism is not a danger because, although God would be willing to allow the wicked into heaven if He could, because He loves them, the fact of the matter is, He can't. They have unfitted themselves for heaven. Victory of sin, according to this view, is fueled, not by fear of suffering the wrath of God if the conditions are not met, but out of appreciation for His wonderful gift in sacrificing His Son.
I'm writing this because I see the quotes from the Great Controversy as related to this topic. I can see why danielw is quoting the quotes he is, and I also see why I and others have been citing the quotes we have.
What the poster was afraid might be off topic (as I understood the post) was not the GC posts themselves, but the question relating to different versions of the GC.
Posted By: John H.
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/23/04 08:09 PM
quote:
What the poster was afraid might be off topic (as I understood the post) was not the GC posts themselves, but the question relating to different versions of the GC.
That's the way I read it as well.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/24/04 12:01 AM
"The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture."(6T 408).
"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised." (6T 388-389)
"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." (GC 36, 37)
We note:
1) It is when God withdraws His Spirit and tells the restraining angels to release the winds of strife, that the horror predicted in Revelation takes place.
2) Satan is the destroyer.
3) To those who refuse to obey God, He turns over to Satan to do his destroying work.
4) God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.
5) God leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.
6) The sufferings of the wicked are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/26/04 08:33 PM
After reviewing the last few posts, I want to go on record that my post regarding the GC editions was really in response to Dora's post.
Danielw's GC quotes being related to this topic were not being questioned by me whatsoever.
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/28/04 07:15 PM
Hi:
I am a member over at the TRO The Remnant Onlin forum. We have had this discussion on one of our forums in what is called the Laodecia forum.
Let us start with these few questions:
1. Do you love satan?
2. Do you hate satan?
3. Is there any Bible or Spirit of Prophecy direction to love satan?
4. Do you think God hates satan?
Liane
Posted By: Charity
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/28/04 08:56 PM
Hi Liane;
Greetings. I'm glad you dropped by. I hope things are going well with you.
Good questions you've posed. I'll add one or two to yours if you don't mind - Does Satan love God? Are the righteous supposed to love the wicked? When Babylon through the image beast persecutes the saints and God eventually interviens on their behalf and sends the plagues (by withdrawing His protective Spirit from the earth) are the saints supposed to weap for the wicked or are they commanded to rejoice?
It may also be helpful, if it hasn't been done yet, to define what we mean by unconditional love. I have a simple way of looking at that: God sends his blessings on the good and the bad. He waters the crops of the wicked and the righteous. But He is hoping for a response to His love isn't He?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/28/04 10:37 PM
Hi Mark:
Thanks for the greeting. I came by to update my password and saw this topic. Have not been posting on this forum in years and when I saw this topic could not resist the desire to read what has transpired. So thus my post.
The term "unconditional love" came up many years ago for me when I first joined the church and studied it over the years and have come to terms with what God has blessed me to understand and I have learned.
We have two things we are dealing with here on this topic. Unconditional love and hate. Does God use both? Or either? Or none?
From what I have come to know is there is no such thing as unconditional love by God. There is eternal love. There is forgiving love, there is love that is deep, wide and willing to do anything necessary to save His children, but all are based on one thing. God's love is a covenant and like so many covenants by God there is a role that the person must do and God does.
We must also realize that this love endures forever and is never ending. So how can hate fit into this. We must look to other parts of His Word to understand that.
We must realize that love does have a period for some people at a certain time in the course of events of this earth as we know it. It will happen on the day that our High Priest will leave the Most Holy Place and all mercy shall be closed to mankind from that point on.
Until then God does extend mercy with justice and loves the sinner and hates the sin. But someday the sinner and the sin will be so meshed within a person that not even God can separate the sinner from the sin and thus God does hate sin and the wicked will be so consumed by sin that there is no difference to God or us.
For God so loved the world that He gave His onmly Begotten Son and to those that believe upon the Son shall have eternal life.
Some have said that if God could hate that they could not believe in Him ever again, that it would destroy any trust they would have in God. I look at it another way. If God can destroy those that he loves, how can one trust that love at any point in their lives?
Let me be clear the very foundation and character of God is love. It is what makes Him God. If we are created in His image and we have emotions I do believe that God has emotions as well. Love is a force that God has given us, hate is an emotion that we feel. In other words love should be so grounded within us that it motivates all that we do. Hate, fear, anger are emotions that affect us at any given time and can change. The same goes for joy, happiness and peace.
When we understand love as is connected with God then we can understand everything else. There is love, but there is no unconditional love, love without conditions. The word love does not need anything before or after it to describe it. LOVE IS and is all the essence we need to know about God and His love.
Maybe none of this will make sense to anyone, but it has sustained me for many years. It has helped me to understand the word Love according to God and has given me the trust that I feel toward Him always.
Liane
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/29/04 06:29 AM
Here are a couple of more questions.
1. Is there any command in the Bible or the SOP for us to hate Satan?
2. Is there a Bible or SOP reference to God hating Satan?
Pastor Mike
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/29/04 05:51 PM
Hi Mike:
Yes it does. In Matthew 6:24 the Bible speaks of not being able to serve two masters. That one can love the one and will hate the other. One cannot serve God and satan at the same time.
In John 8:44 we are told that satan is the source of sin. He is sin. We are told to hate sin. One cannot separate satan from sin for it so consumes the being of satan that there is not way to love this being.
When we read in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy the deeds of satan we see that God hates the evil deeds that is done. If we are the children of God then we will love that which He loves and hate that which He hates.
We are told to love the sinner and not the sin. We are told to love our enemy. This is true, but we are told to do this because we do not know the outcome of the sinner, only God knows presently.
But there will be a day of reckoning in which we will know and there will be no doubt about the status of each person once Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place. Their deeds will follow them and their hatred of God will be seen clearly and we will have no compassion or love for them.
Liane
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 06:49 AM
Hi Liane!
I am also happy to see you here too.
Let's bring this down to another interesting level; the level of parents love for their children, notwithstanding the sad things that are even happening in this area re child abuse, etc. But that's another topic which fulfills the "without natural affection" aspect of the signs of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
To those parents who really love their children, as God loves us all as His children, is their love for their children unconditional love or is it conditional love?
Posted By: Mike Carner
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 12:11 AM
Hi Liane,
The Matthew 6:24 text is not a command it’s a statement of fact. You can not give ultimate loyalty to two anything. Ultimate loyalty can only be given to one. It is a statement of comparison. Look at Luke 14:26
“If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. “
Is Jesus saying here that we should literally hate our families? Of course not. What this is saying is that our love and loyalty to Christ is so complete that in comparison our love for our families seems to be hate because it is so much less than our love for him. We must love Christ supremely. We see it clearly in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37
“ He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. “
So we are said to “hate” something when we don’t love it as much as something else. This is not that burning passion against something that we often think of when we use the term hate.
Also Matthew 6:24 refers to mammon not Satan. Mammon is usually understood to be money or worldly goods. We are not called to hate money. The warning is not to serve money. This quote from Adventist Home brings that point out.
“ When we love God supremely, temporal things will occupy their right place in our affections. If we humbly and earnestly seek for knowledge and ability in order to make a right use of our Lord's goods, we shall receive wisdom from above. When the heart leans to its own preferences and inclinations, when the thought is cherished that money can confer happiness without the favor of God, then the money becomes a tyrant, ruling the man; it receives his confidence and esteem and is worshiped as a god. Honor, truth, righteousness, and justice are sacrificed upon its altar. The commands of God's word are set aside, and the world's customs and usages, which King Mammon has ordained, become a controlling power. {AH 372.2}”
We are to love God more than money and so serve Him. In contrast to this our relationship to money is said to be one of “hate.” This is like the description of our relation to our family cited above in Luke 14:26.
It’s going a long way to try and extrapolate a command to hate Satan from this verse.
The same goes for the treatment of John 8:44. The verse teaches that Satan is the originator of sin. You go beyond the verse to say Satan is sin. Then since we are to hate sin you say we are to hate Satan. So your statement that we are to hate Satan is built upon your extrapolation rather than on the verse itself.
However the Bible does give us a clear command to love our enemies. Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Are there any clear statements that would show this does not apply to Satan? I am not saying it necessarily does. But in the face of a clear command it seems there should be something equally clear to show that it doesn’t apply.
In Christian love,
Pastor Mike
----------------
edited for grammer - Mike
[ August 29, 2004, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Mike Carner ]
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 02:19 AM
Hi Daryl:
In Romans 3:23 the Bible states that: All have sinned and come (fall) short to the glory of God.
Isaiah 64:6 states: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags...
None of us has that perfect love, no less are able to love that to the point of unconditionally. We love as much as we can love if we have the love of God in us. All other love is conditional, because we have a fallen nature.
God is love, 1 John 4:8. The best that we can do is seek God and learn of His love and grow in His love. Desire to be like Him in His love.
I do not believe that any parent can love their child unconditionally. What they can do is love them as much as they are able on this earth.
I will ask you this question. Could you love unconditionally your adult child that goes around molesting and killing children?
You may still love your child, but to love that child unconditionally to me would be to justify their actions. There would have to be some part of a parent that changed in their heart and mind about the love they feel for that child that commits sins against mankind and God.
Liane
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 02:44 AM
I guess what I am trying to say with the parent-child unconditional scenario is that God loves all of us to the extent that God sent His only begotten Son to all of us as stated in John 3:16 with no conditions attached.
Isn't this an established fact?
And if so, isn't this also a sure sign of God's unconditional love for all of us?
When Jesus said what He said below regarding the people of Jerusalem how did He feel about that?
quote:
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Didn't He still love them?
Why did He say it the way He did, unless He still loved them in spite of what they were doing to Him and what He saw would happen to them as a result of their rejection of Him?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 03:09 AM
Hi Pastor Mike:
The context of Matthew 6:24 is regarding two things.
One is one cannot serve or love two masters.
Second the word Mammon also means deify or deified, which means: to make a god, to look upon as a god.
Third satan has made himself a god of this earth.
If we love anything more than God, then we make of that thing a god. Whether it be family, money, food, rock stars, etc.
What Jesus is saying is that one cannot love your parents or spouse or children MORE than Me. If you do try you will eventually hate one and love the other. What Jesus is saying is as black and white as it can get.
If the love that is required to love someone takes away our ability to love God supremely, we will fall short of our love for God. Jesus used the word hate for a reason. He is asking of us all or nothing. It could very well require of us to hate our family so that we can surrender ourselves totally to Him.
John 8:44 indeed states satan is the originator of sin. Since this is true then satan is sin because that is all satan is and can be. The very foundation and character of satan is manafested in sin. The whole being of satan is consumed in the hatred and evil.
The Spirit of Prophecy states very clearly that on the day of Calvary the door was closed forever for satan. One of the best chapters in the Desire of Ages is "It is Finished." Clearly is revealed what is satan's character and the contrast that God gives to mankind and where satan stands now in the eyes and mind of God.
Yes I agree with you regarding Matthew 5:43. But let us remember that what I am speaking of and what you are speaking of is two different time periods when it comes to mankind. Again we must look to a time when Jesus will leave the Most Holy Place. All mercy will be closed on that moment for all of mankind that has rejected the love of God. It is this and only then we will be allowed to read the heart of man and see that they have become so much a part of sin that they are sin.
Starting with Proverbs 6:16
16: These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18: a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19: a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.
Now I must ask three questions.
Does this verse not state that the Lord does hate?
In this discription can we not see satan?
Then therefore God does hate satan?
Liane
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 03:44 AM
Yes, I agree, however, even though God hates our sinful acts, He still loves us and wants to save us from our sins.
He loves the sinner but hates the sin.
Hating our actions doesn't mean He hates the persons behind those actions.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 03:47 AM
Another thought just struck me.
Could we be getting confused about God's love and God's promises; God's love being unconditional and God's promises being conditional?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 02:15 PM
Hi Brother Daryl:
Yes you are correct about the present time. God does separate the sinner from their sins in His love for them. Today and until our High Priest leaves the Most Holy Place, God will continue to out of His love for us respond with justice and mercy.
What I am speaking of is not present time, but when the end of the world comes and the plagues come and when those of mankind have rejected His love that the wall between the sinner and the sin will be gone by the blood of Jesus and the cleansing of the Heavenly Most Holy Place will have been finished.
the Bible says: If you love me you will keep my commandments. John 14:15. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall have eternal life. John 3:16.
Here are two examples of conditional love from the Bible as stated by God. The condition in which we show our love for God is based on us keeping His commandments. The condition for eternal life is based in believing in His only begotten Son. There are many more throughout the Bible.
The Godhead does set conditions in regards to love, not only His, but ours.
We must separate what God is and His emotions. The Bible states "God is love." "God is hate" is no where to be found. So when the Bible speaks of God hating we must look at it in the context in which God is speaking.
In the book of Malachi 1:3 God states: and I hated Esau...
This does not state he hated Esau deeds, but hated Esau.
The definition of hate is: detestation. To dislike intensely, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe. To hate in general terms signifying intense aversion, and can be accompanied by ill will.
God never desires or causes his hate to be accompanied by ill will. this is the difference between when a person hates and God hates. When we understand this then we can understand how God can indeed hate even though He is love.
Liane
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/30/04 07:01 PM
I found the reference to
Malachi 1:3 interesting, therefore, I looked it up in our SDA Bible Commentary and here is what I read there.
quote:
3. Hated Esau. From the context it seems that Edom, the nation of Esau’s descendants, is primarily referred to here rather than the man Esau himself. The use of the word “hate” is a typical Oriental hyperbole (see Gen. 29:33; Deut. 21:15; see on Ps. 119:136), and should not be taken in its strongest sense. The Lord here makes plain His preference for Jacob and his descendants over Esau and his descendants. This preference arose, of course, out of the relationship of the two brothers to God. Because Jacob was spiritually-minded and had soul-saving faith, loving the things of God, his sins were forgiven and he enjoyed God’s favor and fellowship. Esau, on the other hand, was a worldly-minded, “profane person,” with no desire or love for divine things, and so he put himself outside the divine favor (Heb. 12:16, 17).
It, therefore, seems that God didn't hate Esau in the sense that we understand the word today.
I guess that is why we need to look at it in the sense in which the word was used back then.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/31/04 12:02 AM
What do you mean by saying God's love is conditional? What would the condition be? Obedience? (that's the only possible candidate that comes to mind)
Would this mean that God loves us because we are obedient, and will stop loving us if we quit? Or, this is the way God becomes after Christ finishes His ministration in the Most Holy Place?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 08/31/04 05:08 AM
Hi Brother Daryl and Tom:
Daryl:
First, I am leaving tomorrow morning and will not be back until late Wednesday so I will not be able to get online and post until Thursday morning.
Very clearly the verse of Malachi 1:3 is referring to Esau and his decendants. The word hated is pass tense, there for God is clearly speaking of Esau and his decendants.
There is no statement of this verse from the Spirit of Prophecy. So one must look to the Holy Spirit and the wisdom given to us.
Let us look to the definition of hate I gave on a previous post:
The definition of hate is: detestation. To dislike intensely, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe. To hate in general terms signifying intense aversion, and can be accompanied by ill will.
There is a big difference between intense dislike or detest to abhor or loathe someone.
First let me say that God never hates anyone to the point to be accompanied by ill will. Only on a human level and satan with the fallen angels would hate go to that point.
Also when I think of Esau at that time when God hated him I believe it was in the terms of dislike, which I would believe would be a lesser form of hate.
What I believe is that when God will hate the wicked in the latter days it will be a stronger form of hate such as abhor, abominate and loathe. They will disgusting vile beings in which all mercy will have been swept away and only justice will prevail.
When Jesus tells us not to hate our enemies, he was speaking in the terms that we often think of hate in which when we do hate someone we often desire ill will towards them at the same time. This brings us down to the level in which satan works and is dangerous to our souls. It is better to love our enemy than to hate because of what hate does to our character and state of being.
When the time Jesus will leave the Most Holy Place we will have a faith and character so manifested like Jesus that we will understand better the emotion of this hate. We will have an understanding of satan and the beings that followed satan we will understand this form of hate that we will see and experience ourselves with God.
Yes hate comes in different forms and levels and thoughts and emotions, even with God, but nonetheless God hated Esau. There is no translation error, no mistake, the word hate is there and was used for a reason and we must seek the wisdom of God and understand.
___________________________________
Tom:
We must separate what God is and what God's actions are toward us when He loves us. The Bible says: God Is Love. This means that everything God is is made up from, with, and by love. It is the very being of His character. There is nothing like it in the universe.
But God's attitude and relationship with man is a covenant and everything He does with us is based on an action and reaction. God tells us if you love me keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love,....
So Jesus saying if you do not keep His commandments you will not abide in His love?
Love and obedience is the whole foundation of the Great Controversy. It started with satan in heaven, continued on this earth when our first parents fell and has continued to this day and will end when Jesus comes.
Liane
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/01/04 07:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by liane:
Hi Brother Daryl and Tom:
Daryl:
The definition of hate is: detestation. To dislike intensely, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe....Also when I think of Esau at that time when God hated him I believe it was in the terms of dislike, which I would believe would be a lesser form of hate....
What I believe is that when God will hate the wicked in the latter days it will be a stronger form of hate such as abhor, abominate and loathe. They will disgusting vile beings in which all mercy will have been swept away and only justice will prevail. ...
Yes hate comes in different forms and levels and thoughts and emotions, even with God, but nonetheless God hated Esau. There is no translation error, no mistake, the word hate is there and was used for a reason and we must seek the wisdom of God and understand.
God's attitude and relationship with man is a covenant and everything He does with us is based on an action and reaction. God tells us if you love me keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love,....
So Jesus saying if you do not keep His commandments you will not abide in His love?
Liane
First regarding the word hate. This word, like many words, means different things in different contexts. It may mean (this is a bit awkward in normal English) "the thing (or person) not preferred." For example, when God says He hated Esau and loved Jacob, He means He preferred Jacob. This is born out both by the context and common sense.
In the story in Genesis, Jacob, though a scoundrel, responded to God's love and showed an interest in the things of God. It was for this reason the God preferred him. The Spirit of Prophesy goes into great detail about this in Patriarchs and Prophets.
Here are some other examples of the word translated "hate" (Strong's 8130) meaning the person not preferred:
And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. (Gen. 29:31-33)
Jacob didn't "detest" Leah, but he preferred Rachel.
"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated." (Deut. 21:15)
The same theme.
To suggest that God, who gave His only Son to save Esau, would detest him, or even could detest Him, is an odd thought. What made you think of this?
Regarding abiding in Christ's love, Christ said if we obeyed His commandments, we would abide in His love, even as He obeyed His Father's commandments and abided in His love. Do you suppose God only loved Christ because Christ obeyed Him?
God's love is what causes us to repent. (Rom. 2:4). God's love is what saves us:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 6)
Notice it's God's love which results in the salvation of whoever, provided that person doesn't resist His love.
God began loving us without conditions, when we were sinners, enemies, without hope (Romans 5). Perhaps no better example of God's unmerited love can be given than Adam. Adam disobeyed the explicit command of God, and unlike Eve, he was not deceived. What was God's response? Did He hate him? No, He loved Him, and, before Adam repented, gave Him the give of Christ's righteousness (represented by the animal skin) at infinite cost to Himself.
I think the problem is with the phrase "unconditional love", which is of rather recent usage. It is true that some misuse the term, to give the idea that there are no consequences to one's actions. However, because there are some who misuse a phrase does not imply there is something wrong with the phrase itself. It means the same thing, as far as I can tell, as "unmerited love." However, if you are uncomfortable with the phrase "unconditional love", why not use "unmerited love" instead? In conveys the same thought.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/01/04 09:13 AM
Interesting thoughts, Tom.
Loving response to His love entails obedience,faithfulness,loyalty in my opinion, but is not the spring of that loving response.
I love Him because He is irresistable, not because if I don't I will fry.
Intellectual or a knee-jerk response to religious concepts does not smack of a loving response, but a fear or rigidity concerning God's true character.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/01/04 05:26 PM
Hi,
First of all I keep wondering why noone has quoted john 3:16-18
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Jesus came to the world for ALL humans, despite the fact that most would not respond to this in a positive way.
Secoundly, I read this which seems to be saying that the writings of Ellen somehow replaces the need of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, john 16: 12-14
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
If this is what it was meant to mean, it is sad indeed. Correct me if I am wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by liane:
Hi Brother Daryl and Tom:
There is no statement of this verse from the Spirit of Prophecy. So one must look to the Holy Spirit and the wisdom given to us.
Liane
/Thomas
edit, I saw that john 3:16 had in fact been refered to when reading the secound last page, however, the conclutions still seem to be different...
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/02/04 06:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
Interesting thoughts, Tom.
Loving response to His love entails obedience,faithfulness,loyalty in my opinion, but is not the spring of that loving response.
I love Him because He is irresistable, not because if I don't I will fry.
Intellectual or a knee-jerk response to religious concepts does not smack of a loving response, but a fear or rigidity concerning God's true character.
Amen! Your comments bring to mind the following:
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. (DA 480)
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/02/04 12:42 AM
Jn:14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he
that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Hosea 14:4.
1: O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2: Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3: Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4: I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
Notice it says God will then love them freely. Maybe a difference between loving and loving freely?
Jn:13:23: Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
The Desire of Ages, page 292, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: "He Ordained Twelve"
"These disciples had been for some time associated with Jesus in active labor. John and James, Andrew and Peter, with Philip, Nathanael, and Matthew, had been more closely connected with Him than the others, and had witnessed more of His miracles. Peter, James, and John stood in still nearer relationship to Him. They were almost constantly with Him, witnessing His miracles, and hearing His words. John pressed into still closer intimacy with Jesus, so that he is distinguished as the one whom Jesus loved. The Saviour loved them all, but John's was the most receptive spirit. He was younger than the others, and with more of the child's confiding trust he opened his heart to Jesus. Thus he came more into sympathy with Christ, and through him the Saviour's deepest spiritual teaching was communicated to His people."
side note:
The Spirit of Prophecy doesnt keep the Holy Spirit from guiding us into all truth anymore than reading the Bible instead of relying upon impressions does. Depends on how you use it.
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/02/04 02:36 PM
ABOVE QUOTE:
=====================================
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. (DA 480) =======================================
Amen!!! It is the Attitude we obey in and the reason we obey that makes the difference. All said and done, it is the relationship we have with Him, the love "because He first loved us!"
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/02/04 08:36 PM
"How could I give you up, O Ephraim, or deliver you up, O Israel? How could I treat you as Admah, or make you like Zeboiim? My heart is overwhelmed, my pity is stirred." (Hos. 11:8; kjv)
"My heart is changed within me;
all my compassion is aroused." (NIV)
"My heart will not let me do it! My love for you is too strong. (GNB)"
If we persist in rebellion, God has no choice but to eventually "give us up", but it deeply hurts Him to do so, because He so greatly loves us. He didn't start loving us because we were obedient to Him, nor does He stop if we reject Him, just as Hosea didn't stop loving his wife when she rejected him.
Here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophesy which incorporates John 14:21:
If we can bear persecution for His dear name's sake, His love becomes a ruling power in our hearts, for we have the assurance that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Never is the tempest-tried soul more dearly loved by his Saviour than when he is suffering reproach for the truth's sake. When for the truth's sake the believer stands at the bar of unrighteous tribunals, Christ stands by his side. All the reproaches that fall upon the human believer fall upon Christ in the person of His saints. "I will love him," said Christ, "and will manifest myself to him" (John 14:21). (That I May Know Him, p. 275)
The point is that if follow Christ, then we can expect to be persecuted as He was. In our persecution, Christ continues to love us and manifest Himself to us. The point isn't that Christ will only love us on condition of obedience, but that we can count on His love come what may.
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/04/04 12:12 PM
Sorry for the long delay in response. This had been a full week for me, more than I had expected.
There is no question of the love of God. The Bible quotes that "God is Love." We know this because of what He did on the cross for us. His love is a major part of the image that God is and we need to understand and learn from.
At the same time we have verses that speak of His hate. There are more than I had seen before. We must not just look at one side of His relationslhip with humanity, but all aspects of it so that we get a very good picture of Who God really is.
Failure to do so will lead many to have a tunnel vision of God that will cause many to stumble when the great time of trouble comes. Because they will have failed to know Him they will miss the mark and not hear His knock at the door.
We see this very clearly when we look at how the Apostles of Christ reacted from the time in the Garden to the moment of His death on the Cross. Yes because there were parts to Jesus and His message of His death they did not want to hear or did not understand they ran like scared rabbits and hid in their den.
We can talk about the love of God toward the saved and the wicked, but we must also understand his hatred toward those wicked when the judgment is set and the books are open. We will see when Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place the wrath of God and His "strange act."
And before Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place the world will be visited with six of the plagues that God will pur out unpon the wicked. So let us with all purpose and faith do all that we can to reach out to the world of the love of God which was so demostrated on that cross because of all of our sins so that many will be saved.
Liane
Posted By: Charity
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/04/04 04:42 PM
Liane, you wrote
quote:
. . .Love is a force that God has given us, hate is an emotion that we feel. . . .
. . .The word love does not need anything before or after it to describe it. LOVE IS
Those distinctions that you make are important I think. Hate is not the opposite of love just as evil is not the opposite of good and Satan is not the opposite of God.
'Love is' , 'God is' and 'good is' but the followers of God hate evil because they love good. True, wholesome hatred is rooted in the love of that which is good; in the love of God. The destation of sin in ourselves and in others is an important part of godliness and is rooted in love.
Liane, you also wrote quote:
God's love is a covenant and like so many covenants by God there is a role that the person must do and God does. . .
I agree with you here too. Many espousing 'unconditional love' are unwittingly adopting a 'sin and live' theology. Our obedience is the result of our submission to Christ and His righteousness. If the love of Christ only covered our sins but did not constrain us to respond in love there would truly be 'no strings' attached. But there would also be no real love. Our hearts are drawn to Christ and resonate with His pulse of love as we see Him hanging on the cross where we should be. The same love constrains us to resist sin by faith. The bottom line for me is that since He loved us so dynamically and completely, how can we not respond?
To say that He loved us while we were still His enemies makes it all the more poignant to us. In that sence His love is unconditional. He showers His blessings on us even while we are estranged from Him. But it is love with a purpose - His is entreating us to respond and live. We can go on turning our backs on Him, but rejecting the grace of God brings consequences. Over time our hearts are hardened, and finally become an impenitrable stone to the Holy Spirit.
So rejection of this unconditional love brings consequences. If that is so, then in an important aspect, the love of God is not unconditional; it is as you point out Liane, a covenant relationship based on God's agape love and our response of love to Him.
In scientific allegory, God's love is the first note in the cosmic song, but our hearts resonate at the same frequency.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/04/04 09:09 PM
God doesn't hate the wicked. He "hates the sin, but loves the sinner." God loves the wicked, but hates the sin which causes their destruction, which He, out of love, warns them from.
If we had a child, or spouse, who chose not to be a part of those who will make themselves ready for Christ's coming, would we hate them? Or would we grieve for them? Is God's love for them less than ours?
God will cry out, "How can I give you up?" "My heart is stirred with compassion." God will suffer more than the wicked themselves when they are destroyed.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/05/04 01:39 AM
That is how I also see it, Tom.
God loves the sinner but hates the sin he or she is committing.
I did a word search to see how many verses I can find that says that "God is love" and here they are:
quote:
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
As you can see there are only two verses in the whole KJV of the Bible.
I next did a word search on "God is hate" and I am happy to say that I obviously didn't find any verses that says that, and I didn't expect to find any.
I decided to do a word search to see what the Bible says that God hates and came up with the following verse:
quote:
Deuteronomy 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deuteronomy 16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
I stopped here when I came across Psalms 11:5 as this verse seems to say that God hates the wicked and him that loves violence.
Does anybody have any thoughts on this particular verse?
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/05/04 03:41 AM
If God hates the wicked then why does He shower his love on him with rain and warmth Etc... as He does the righteous?
If God hates the wicked then why are we told that God laments when He has to distroy them? This shows us that He loves them all the way to the time of distruction.'
One question. I notice that the Bible says that God hates the wicked. It does not use the words that He hates the sinner. At first thought we say that they are both the same. Is it possible that they are not the same?
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I did a word search for God hate sinner, and came up with nothing.
but God love sinner, I came up with the above.
It makes one wonder if there is a difference between wicked and sinner as far as God's love/hate goes.
Any thoughts?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/05/04 05:03 PM
Daryl & Marie:
Between you two I think there is some light that just might be merging for us to understand.
Let us read two verses:
Matthew 13:38
The field of the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one.
Psalms 11:5
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hateth.
What is a Sinner:
A person who willfully breaks a religous or moral law.
What are the Wicked:
Someone who is morally bad, evil.
What are the tares?
They are the children of the wicked one.
The Bible says sin is the transgression of the law. It also says that the wages of sin is death.
It does not say that a sinner shall receive death, but that sin does require death.
So is there a point when a person goes from being a sinner to being wicked?
Who is the wicked one? That being is satan.
Who are the tares? They are the children of the wicked one.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that says God hates sinners, but there is this one verse that says God hates the wicked.
As the world comes to the close I believe that we will begin to see this more clear as time goes by. It appears that we will see people go from being sinners with hope to those that will be wicked that have passed all hope and we will see with our own eyes the evil that is within them.
I believe we do see that now, but the difference will become so contrast that we also will know those that have cut themselves off from God and those to where there still will be some hope.
There are many verses in the Old and New Testament that describe satan, the devil as the wicked one. To the wicked one and those that have become wicked are all as one, but the sinner there still is a light that could be burning if but we fail to reach them that will walk in the way of darkness.
Liane
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/05/04 11:10 PM
Thank You Liane,
This is just how I see it. Another way of putting it is that man does not become so wicked that God hates him as well as his sin, till he commits the unpardnable sin and no long has any hope....due to his own choice of turning away the holy Spirit till there is no turning back.
With
for our Lord as we seek him
![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
to find the truth.
Marie
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 02:16 AM
Just asking for clarity, what bibleverses back the definitions of sinner and wicked as given above?
/Thomas
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 04:52 AM
Texts have been given. It is also thought of because of what is not in the Bible. Such as the fact that the Bible does never say that God hates sinners, but rather it does say that He hates the Wicked.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 12:40 PM
Only verses i saw are those which say that the wicked love violence...
/Thomas
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 05:30 PM
Hi Vost:
Sorry it took me awhile to reply. My main computer is down with all my software and my backup can only be used to do e-mail and post on forums, that is all I have room for in it.
Sinner: To miss, lead estray, trespass, sinful person. Ecc. 7:26 and Luke 15:7 are examples with the concordance gives 2398 and 268 as reference.
Wicked: morally wrong, ungodly, evil, degeneracy, vicious, malicous, without law. Ps 11:5 and Matt 13:49 are examples with the concordance gives 7563 and 4190 as reference.
There is a big difference between a sinner who is missing the mark and is being led estray to one who is wicked, does evil and is without law.
The Bible says: Yet while we were sinners Jesus died for us. For all have sinned and fall short to the glory of God. There is now for many those that have crossed the line from just being a sinner to one who has altogether rejected the salvation give to us.
At some point in time when Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place there will only be left the righteous and the wicked, the just and the unjust.
Liane
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 09:58 PM
The word "hate", both in the Hebrew and Greek, can have the meaning of "the one (or thing) not preferred." For example, Jesus tells us we're not worth of following Him unless we hate our parents and siblings.
Nothing is clearer in Scripture that God loves His children, regardless of their behavior. Even we, wicked as we are, love our children regardless of their behavior. Is God less loving than we are? Or to be more like God, do we need to learn to hate our children if they are bad?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/06/04 10:30 PM
Your post, Tom Ewall, reminded me of the following Bible text, which I believe you were referring to.
quote:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Is Christ actually telling us that we must hate our father, mother, wife, children, brethren, and even our own selves in order to be His disciple in the above text?
Hate is a very strong word in today's language.
Was it a strong word back then too?
I think Tom Ewall may have answered these questions in his post.
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 12:06 AM
My questions are:
1. Would loving good parents who follow Jesus and teach their children to love Jesus would need to be hated?
2. Would selfish parents who do not follow Jesus and do not teach their children to love Jesus would need to be hated?
Liane
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 02:53 AM
How about answering a question with a question.
If you were a parent, which I never was and never will be, would you ever actually hate and disown your procreated child no matter what your child did to you?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 12:18 PM
Thanks Tom E. That's whittling to a fine point! We need to stop seeing God as a mortal being is, filled with too human emotions.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 12:20 PM
I think this is a model quote on the subject:
"Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment.
It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah, and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them."
{CH 460.2}
Posted By: Ikan
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 12:22 PM
Let's do some surgery on this verse:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not.....his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
It becomes clear that here "hate not" means "not regarding as superior, too precious or too important to be in God's control."
It's about keeping Commandment #1 in place #1.
It's about not keeping self as king, always right and never being humbled.
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 05:13 PM
The Bibles says we are created in His image. If that be the case then emotions are just as much a part of God as it is for us.
Presently in our world we may have a distorted understanding of emotions. Emotions are not to rule our faith, nor be an instrument in which to understand truth.
Emotions:
conviction, contempt, despondency, disappointment, disgust, envy, fear, humility, hate, joy, love, loyalty, regret, revenge, sorrow, grief.
God does have emotions, perfect emotions. Gen 6:6 states that it grieved Him in His heart.
Neh 8:10 The joy of the Lord is your strength.
We must not confuse our experience with emotions on the same level of the emotions that God does have to express Himself.
In any understanding of Scripture we must put aside emotions and read the Bible in logic. We also are told that all Scripture must be read literal unless otherwise symbolic in nature.
The concordance states hate 8130/3404 as to hate, to persecute, to detest, to love less. The dictionary gives more: to dislike intensely, detest, abhor, loathe, abominate.
In our understanding of God we must look at God beyond our emotions and distorted concepts. God is love. We must separate what God is to what emotions He can feel, which is love, hate, joy and sorrow as different parts to what makes up God.
Many who say that God's love is unconditional must ask themselves even if we picked the least discription of hate as "to love less" come face to face that God's love must be conditional or else God could not love less. In unconditional love God could not love less.
Daryl:
Like you I have never had a child and never will. Can a person who has never had a child be able to ask and/or answer your question?
What I can do is answer as a child of parents who abused me. Hate and love are emotions. They have their high and low points in our experience. They can change because they are not absolute and are ever changing.
I wanted my parents love, but I got abuse instead. I hated them all my life for what they did to both my sister and me. The difference between my father and my mother is that I was able to learn to love my mother. Why? Because she near the end of her life realized that she was an abusive parent and repented of her deeds. With that healing and forgiveness we were able to reach out and touch each other and love grew between us.
My father on the other hand never repented that I know of and told his family that my sister and I were liars. Therefore my contempt and hate towards him is still there. At one point in my life I went to my fathers grave to forgive him, not for him, because he would not know anyway, but for me.
The hate I felt towards him was consuming me and I had to release it before it destroyed me completely. I still hate him for what he did to us, how it messed up our lives and relationship with others, including God. By doing what I did that day I was able to release all that pain and give it to God. I leave to God his judgment of my Father.
If in God's justice and mercy my earthly Father will be with me for eternity I will accept that because God is perfect and does not make mistakes. It is God's wisdom I trust.
There are good and bad emotions and there is also good and bad understanding and use of emotions. For some Christians it is all to easy to make romantic emotions of our understanding of God. For some it goes against their fear that they are not loved by God, so some have come up with this term, "unconditional love," because they fear that God could reject them if His love was not unconditional.
In the final judgement and before the second death the wicked shall bow before Him and acknowledge that God was indeed just, loving, fair and perfect. This will not be a heart, but a head acknowledgement of God for all to see. That is why they will be destroyed.
Liane
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 09:32 PM
I agree with you that we are created in God's image, and He like us (or perhaps, more accurately, we like Him) has emotions. I agree that God hates. I just don't believe that God hates (in the sense of detest) His children. He hates the sin which destroys them. He "hates the sin, but loves the sinner."
Regarding the word "hate", I provided proof that the word may mean, depending on the context "prefer less". I gave a couple of texts which show that, and if you look at Strong's definition of the word itself, it will tell you that. It doesn't always mean "detest".
God detests wickeness, but not the wicked. God gave His Son that the wicked (which includes us) might be justified by faith.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/07/04 09:50 PM
Perhaps this text will shed more light on God's love for everybody in this world:
quote:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The Lord doesn't want anybody to perish.
He wants everybody to repent.
Such love for everybody as demonstrated in the above text.
Then there is also the mysterious side of God as revealed through His strange act.
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/08/04 12:27 AM
Hi Tom,
The Bible "directly" says that God hates the wicked. However it also says we are to love the sinner. I have thought about this for a long time wondering how to put the two together. The Bible never says that God hates the sinner. Nor have I found that He loves the wicked.
So I can only be let to believe that there has to be a difference between the wicked and the sinner. The only difference I can see is that there is hope for the sinner, but the wicked are sealed as such and will never change. When this happens in one life I am not sure we know. But I do know that if at any time we want to except Christ then we can not be sealed yet. Being sealed in wickedness can only mean that we have come to the point of commiting the un-pardnable sin by a long time of turning the Holy Spirit away.
God's love will draw the sinner, but I don't feel this is done for the wicked for they no longer will change due to their own choice.
I don't know if this thought has been presented before, but it is the only way I can understand what otherwise does not agree in the Bible. I feel there is always agreement in the Bible, we just need to understand.
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/08/04 09:01 PM
The Bible "directly" says many things. It says that God creates evil. It says God killed Saul. It says God moved David to number Israel. It says that God created a covenant that leads to bondage. We need to read the Scriptures intelligently, considering what we know of God's character, especially as revealed in Jesus Christ, in coming to decisions.
For example, we know when the Bible says God killed Saul, it must mean He permitted Saul to kill himself, even though it "directly" says that God killed Him.
So how do we understand that God hates the wicked? In Romans 4 and 5 we are told that God loves His enemies, sinners, and justifies the ungodly. I think you're going to have a difficult time making a case that God hates the wicked while loving enemies, sinners and the ungodly.
The truth is all of us are wicked. It is only by the grace of God that any of us has any righteousness at all. It would be just as appropriate for us to pray, "God, be merciful to me, a wicked person" as to pray, "God, be merciful to me a sinner."
It makes much more sense to me to understand that God's hates the wicked in the sense that He hates sin, and the wicked have identified themselves with sin. But as to the actual wicked person, He continues to love them. When they die, He will cry out, "How can I give you up?" He will lament, as Jesus did for Jerusalem. After all, God loves the wicked so much He sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal life.
If one of our children, or a spouse, or a parent, were to totally reject Christ, so they are "wicked", would we quit loving them? Is God any less loving than we are?
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/08/04 09:11 PM
We Tom, are not to ever judge anyone as "helpless" and as one gone over the line, regardless of what it may seem. This line when crossed is only known to God. It is not shown to us and there is a good reason for that. God only knows the heart. He only knows the future of that person. Never should we cut someone off, it is not our job to judge people in this.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/09/04 12:05 AM
Amen, Marie!
I don't think anybody is questioning that fact.
Frm reading Tom's post, I thought of other interesting texts quoted below where it says in Exodus 8:32 that Pharoah hardened his own heart and then in Exodus 9:12 that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
quote:
Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
So which is it? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or did God harden Pharoah's heart?
This may help us to better understand the love-hate aspect of this topic on whether or not God's love is conditional or unconditional.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/09/04 04:54 AM
I'm not suggesting we judge whether someone has gone over the line or not. If God were to tell us our [some loved one] was lost (i.e., they had committed the unpardonable sin), would we stop loving them? What would are reaction be? Would we start hating them? Or would we grieve?
Is God any less loving than we are? He records what His emotions are when one of His children are lost, "How can I give you up? My compassion is stirred within me."
If we think God will start hating him if we don't obey Him, we are doing God a great disservice. God is as He revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, and there is no hint that Jesus hated anybody. We are told there were tears in His voice when He rebuked the pharisees, and He prayed for those who were crucifying Him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/09/04 04:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Amen, Marie!
I don't think anybody is questioning that fact.
Frm reading Tom's post, I thought of other interesting texts quoted below where it says in Exodus 8:32 that Pharoah hardened his own heart and then in Exodus 9:12 that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
quote:
Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
So which is it? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or did God harden Pharoah's heart?
This may help us to better understand the love-hate aspect of this topic on whether or not God's love is conditional or unconditional.
If we keep in mind that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits, I think the answer to your question will present itself.
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/09/04 06:25 AM
Who is to blame for his hardened heart according to what all the Bible teaches us?
The Bible teaches us in many places that we were made with a choice for good or for evil. From Eve and Adam right on down, it is our choice.
So who hardened his heart? He had to have done it just as sure as we are the ones that harden our hearts over things. It was his choice and it is our choice.
I feel that God allows it. I do feel that in the old testiment men did feel God was to blame for this and that. But it is my understanding that God allows it. He does not make choices for us. He woes us to Himself that we may have a chance to make good choices, but He don't make choices for us.
I can understand that one can go a step farther and say that many old testiment people thought God did hate the wicked. I can see this possibilty also in the old Testiment. But I am not so fast to do away with texts when there are other explanations. If we do, we could go on and on and soon find us without a Bible to go by.
I am not saying I am right in my stand. But I feel the explanation could be the answer. It is a hard call. It is hard for me to believe that God ever hates anyone. I don't want to believe that. But we can't just change the meaning of all texts that we can't understand. We really need the leading of the Holy Spirit so we can know what the answers are.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/09/04 05:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
ouch.
quote:
The conditions of obtaining mercy of God, are simple and just and reasonable.
...
Those who have not humbled their souls before God in acknowledging their guilt, have not yet fulfilled the first condition of acceptance. If we have not experienced that repentance which is not to be repented of, and have not with true humiliation of soul and brokenness of spirit confessed our sins, abhorring our iniquity, we have never truly sought for the forgiveness of sin; and if we have never sought, we have never found the peace of God. The only reason why we do not have remission of sins that are past is that we are not willing to humble our hearts and comply with the conditions of the word of truth.
...
It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions, to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin.
...
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness
Above found in Steps to Christ
I re-read the above post and quote by danielw which isn't speaking about conditions for God's love, but conditions for God's mercy, acceptance, truth, and pardon, but nowhere is God's love listed as a condition to be a recipient of His love for the whole wide world is already a recipient of God's love as stated in John 3:16 in which God so loved the world [everybody in the world] that.....
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 09/10/04 07:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Amen, Marie!
I don't think anybody is questioning that fact.
Frm reading Tom's post, I thought of other interesting texts quoted below where it says in Exodus 8:32 that Pharoah hardened his own heart and then in Exodus 9:12 that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
quote:
Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
So which is it? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or did God harden Pharoah's heart?
This may help us to better understand the love-hate aspect of this topic on whether or not God's love is conditional or unconditional.
If we keep in mind that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits, I think the answer to your question will present itself.
I think you're absolutely correct in your analysis of what it means when it says that God hardened Pharoh's heart. God allowed it. Similarly when it says that God killed Saul, that's what it means. And when it says God moved David to number Israel. Many examples of this principle could be cited.
So how do we arive at this conclusion, even though the Bible directly says God killed Saul, for example? God gave us reason to analyze His word. By asking intelligent questions, and studying His Word to see how He reveals Himself, we come to conclusions, trying to piece things together the best we can.
Regarding what it means when it says God hates certain people, why not follow the same principle you have followed above? You say you don't want to believe God hates anybody. Then don't!
The clearest revelation of God is in Jesus Christ. He said to pray for those who despitefully use you and to love your enemies. He prayed for forgiveness for those who were killing Him. Tears were in His voice when He denounced the Pharisees, and there were no more wicked people than they.
The word "hate" can mean "prefer less", as Strong points out in his concordance. Examples of that are when Christ says we are unworthy to follow Him unless we hate our parents and siblings.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence. His love is drawing all to Himself, and unless that love is rejected, the rejector will be saved.
Satan is the one who has presented God as one who will destroy you if you don't do His will. He presents a "God" with a dark side, but God reveals Himself in Christ. Can you imagine Christ hating (detesting) anyone? Is there any evidence that Christ ever hated (detested) anyone? To ask such a question is to answer it.
Christ loved the sinner, but hates the sin. "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
Posted By: Daryl
Re: God's love not unconditional - 03/16/06 05:29 AM
Tom,
Upon reviewing this old topic, it seems like you had the last word.
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 03/16/06 06:59 AM
I was going to respond, "Not anymore." but that doesn't work, does it?
Posted By: liane
Re: God's love not unconditional - 03/17/06 04:49 PM
Brother Mark:
I was just going to read this topic, but when I came across one that you wrote on September 4, 2004 I had to say something.
Many things have been said here, but that post was one of the most inspiring to be written. I most liked about it was when you said:
"God's love is with purpose."
Yes everything God does through His love is with purpose. Many when they write about salvation and can relate that to conditions seem to separate salvation from love. Why? Because it is hard to accept the idea that there can be conditions in love.
But without His love there would be no salvation. His love set up a plan that would bring us home to be with Him for all eternity. There is a defined connection between God's love and His desire to save us.
His whole purporse in sending His Son was from His love for us and making a way for us to receive grace and life.
God is love, and yes there are no verses that says God is hate, because that is not His character. His character is in the foundation of love.
Psalms:
139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Whatever this "perfect hatred" that David was able to have I believe that God can have it as well. Since God is perfect, then He has a perfect love, then He must be able to have a perfect hate.
I believe that as we drawn nearer to the end days we will understand this as the wicked grown more evil and the saints grow more righteous.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Posted By: teresaq
Re: God's love not unconditional - 05/31/09 08:51 AM
My father on the other hand never repented that I know of and told his family that my sister and I were liars. Therefore my contempt and hate towards him is still there. At one point in my life I went to my fathers grave to forgive him, not for him, because he would not know anyway, but for me.
The hate I felt towards him was consuming me and I had to release it before it destroyed me completely. I still hate him for what he did to us, how it messed up our lives and relationship with others, including God. By doing what I did that day I was able to release all that pain and give it to God. I leave to God his judgment of my Father.
i so hope that you have gotten to the point where you now feel love and pity for him, where your heart breaks because he is more than likely eternally lost.
i am almost there for those who have abused me in my childhood. it feels so much better than hating and blaming them.
i want that unconditional love of God. i want it to permeate my being. i want, God forbid, that if someone is physically harming me all i can think of is how to reach them for God. i want it for those who are harming me in non-physical ways also.
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
and yet he got up each time and went back over and over trying to reach people for God. why? the unconditional love of God which he now felt for those lost souls.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
and for all eternity Jesus will suffer the loss of those who spit on Him, beat Him, mocked Him, stuck thorns on His head, nailed Him to a cross. He will mourn for those who cried, crucify Him. He will mourn for each and every pharisee that stalked His every move and made life hell for Him.
unconditional love? just read the gospels and the desire of ages with the understanding of the Holy Spirit and there would be no question!
Posted By: Tom
Re: God's love not unconditional - 05/31/09 06:58 PM
Nice thoughts, especially this:
I want that unconditional love of God. I want it to permeate my being. I want, God forbid, that if someone is physically harming me all i can think of is how to reach them for God. I want it for those who are harming me in non-physical ways also.
Beautiful.
This is the spirit of Christ, to want good for those who do us evil.
Posted By: asygo
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 09:34 AM
He pitied and loved not only those who sought to be obedient and loving, but those also who were wayward and perverse. Jesus has not changed; He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and He still loves and pities the erring, seeking to draw them to Himself, that He may give them divine aid. He knows that a demon power is struggling in every soul, striving for the mastery; but Jesus came to break the power of Satan and to set the captives free. {ML 300.3}
Posted By: Green Cochoa
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 10:56 AM
In "Address to Ministers" (Testimonies, vol. 2), Mrs. White also writes:
The hateful sin of selfishness exists to a great degree, even in some who profess to be devoted to the work of God. If they would compare their character with His requirements, especially with the great standard, His holy, just, and good law, they would ascertain, if earnest, honest searchers, that they are fearfully wanting. But some are not willing to look far enough or deep enough to see the depravity of their own hearts. They are wanting in very many respects; yet they remain in willing ignorance of their guilt, and are so intent upon caring for their own interests that God has no care for them. {2T 512.2}
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Alchemy
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 04:55 PM
I guess the clarification I would make is this; God's love is conditional upon our choice. God's desire has always been for all His creatures to be saved. Unfortunately, we disagree with God and end up choosing to be lost.
That is not God's fault!
Posted By: Alchemy
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 04:57 PM
The doctrine of God's unconditional love is probably the worst error to enter the churches, Babylon and Laodicea, in the last 100 years.
Why is this error passed over so lightly? How did it ever get accepted in the first place? Does anyone have any thots/info on this?
quote:
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
My best guess is that we were just ashamed that the evangelicals were calling us a cult! So, we decided to be more like them. What a huge mistake.
Posted By: kland
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 06:26 PM
I guess the clarification I would make is this; God's love is conditional upon our choice. God's desire has always been for all His creatures to be saved. Unfortunately, we disagree with God and end up choosing to be lost.
That is not God's fault!
I think previous posters had said it was unconditional. Us choosing to be lost, does not change the condition of His love. But maybe you are questioning the definition of love. And does it mean the same as "care"?
Posted By: Johann
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 09:16 PM
I found it very interesting to skim through this whole thread, seeing how you have wrestled with such as issue before.
It was good to see you posting here, Daryl, and I am in full agreement with everything you said.
Posted By: asygo
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 09:53 PM
Does God's love = salvation?
Posted By: Johann
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/18/14 11:07 PM
Does God's love = salvation?
No, there is no salvation without acceptance
Posted By: asygo
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/19/14 05:37 AM
Does God save everyone he loves? Does He love only the saved?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/19/14 08:06 PM
"God is love." They cannot not love. Their love is unconditional. However, salvation is very much conditional.
Posted By: Alchemy
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/20/14 03:28 PM
I guess the clarification I would make is this; God's love is conditional upon our choice. God's desire has always been for all His creatures to be saved. Unfortunately, we disagree with God and end up choosing to be lost.
That is not God's fault!
I think previous posters had said it was unconditional. Us choosing to be lost, does not change the condition of His love. But maybe you are questioning the definition of love. And does it mean the same as "care"?
I could say God's love is unconditional to a point. But, once I say "to a point", it becomes conditional.
So, to try and clarify my earlier response, once the wicked are completely destroyed, I don't believe God still retains love for those whom He had to destroy. I don't believe that God will go through the ceaseless ages yearning for those people He destroyed. Consequently, I do believe God's love has a limit.
I hope I was clearer?
Posted By: Green Cochoa
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/20/14 04:12 PM
I could say God's love is unconditional to a point. But, once I say "to a point", it becomes conditional.
So, to try and clarify my earlier response, once the wicked are completely destroyed, I don't believe God still retains love for those whom He had to destroy. I don't believe that God will go through the ceaseless ages yearning for those people He destroyed. Consequently, I do believe God's love has a limit.
I hope I was clearer?
I look at this differently. I would explain the apparent discrepancy by saying there are two kinds of "love" which God has and are recorded in His Word.
The first kind is that ingrained in His very character. God IS love. In this sense, God always loves every creature, regardless. For example, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son" applies to everyone.
The second kind is that which corresponds to His acceptance. It is more similar, perhaps, to the word "like." In this sense, God only "loves" those who have His spirit in their hearts and who desire to serve Him. For example, "For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth" applies to this group, and not to everyone.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/22/14 08:57 AM
I could say God's love is unconditional to a point. But, once I say "to a point", it becomes conditional.
So, to try and clarify my earlier response, once the wicked are completely destroyed, I don't believe God still retains love for those whom He had to destroy. I don't believe that God will go through the ceaseless ages yearning for those people He destroyed. Consequently, I do believe God's love has a limit.
I know two couples who have lost toddlers. They do not spend their days crying over their loss. However, I don't think they love them any less.
Consider David's reaction to Absalom's death. If David could love his son who had attempted to kill him, can't we envision that God can love His wayward children at least as much?
The destruction of the impenitent is no less an act of love than the salvation of the repentant.
Posted By: Green Cochoa
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/22/14 01:25 PM
Well said, Arnold, especially that last line. It bears repeating...
"The destruction of the impenitent is no less an act of love than the salvation of the repentant."
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/22/14 03:42 PM
"The destruction of the impenitent is no less an act of love than the salvation of the repentant."
Exactly, but those who are the devils advocate believe that wicked men are justified to live forever without God. They see men as having some kind of licence to live without God. Some kind of celestial rights that do not include God and being Holy.
Without true conversion it would be better for the universe for fallen men to die and the earth to vanish. Thank God for His promise to recreate us in His image to restore harmony in the Universe.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/22/14 08:36 PM
"God is love." Can't imagine love not loving someone.
Posted By: Alchemy
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/23/14 06:24 AM
"God is love." They cannot not love. Their love is unconditional. However, salvation is very much conditional.
Excellent post, MM.
It's because of God's love for us that Jesus risked everything for our salvation. Unfortunately, we often choose to reject salvation anyway.
Posted By: Alchemy
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/23/14 06:29 AM
I think I understand what you are saying Green.
My point had more to do with time. God loves everyone now, no matter what! In the time of the New Heaven and New Earth, the lost will be forgotten. I believe God even forgets them.
I know God will always "know" everything past, present and future. I mean He will no longer have love for those who were destroyed.
It does work for me with all I know from Scripture.
Posted By: Green Cochoa
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/23/14 07:25 AM
Why does the Bible speak of certain ones as being "greatly beloved" or "the one whom Jesus loved?"
I'm not convinced that God loves all equally. This has to do with sin...God cannot love sin. The less sin we have in our character, the more ability God has to love us, in a sense.
An interesting statement I just read this morning from Mrs. White's writings indicates that not all lives are equal in value.
Invalids, I advise you to venture something. Arouse your will power, and at least make a trial of this matter. Withdraw your thoughts and affections from yourselves. Walk out by faith. Are you inclined to center your thoughts upon yourselves, fearing to exercise, and fearing that if you expose yourself to the air you will lose your life; resist these thoughts and feelings. Do not yield to your diseased imagination. If you fail in the trial, you can but die. And what if you do die? One life might better be lost than many sacrificed. The whims and notions which you cherish are not only destroying your own life, but injuring those whose lives are more valuable than yours. But the course we recommend will not deprive you of life or injure you. You will derive benefit from it. You need not be rash or reckless; commence moderately at first to have more air and exercise, and continue your reform until you become useful, a blessing to your families and to all around you. Let your judgment be convinced that exercise, sunlight, and air are the blessings which Heaven has provided to make the sick well and to keep in health those who are not sick. God does not deprive you of these free, Heaven-bestowed blessings, but you have punished yourselves by closing your doors against them. Properly used, these simple yet powerful agents will assist nature to overcome real difficulties, if such exist, and will give healthy tone to the mind and vigor to the body. {2T 534.2}
That's a rather interesting statement. Of course, if "love" is related to "value," this would help to answer the topic question. I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but I do see a good case could be made for it.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/23/14 08:37 PM
No Respect of Persons with God
The religion of Christ uplifts the receiver to a higher plane of thought and action, while at the same time it presents the whole human race as alike the objects of the love of God, being purchased by the sacrifice of His Son. At the feet of Jesus, the rich and the poor, the learned and the ignorant, meet together, with no thought of caste or worldly pre-eminence. All earthly distinctions are forgotten as we look upon Him whom our sins have pierced. The self-denial, the condescension, the infinite compassion of Him who was highly exalted in heaven, puts to shame human pride, self-esteem, and social caste. Pure, undefiled religion manifests its heaven-born principles in bringing into oneness all who are sanctified through the truth. All meet as blood-bought souls, alike dependent upon Him who has redeemed them to God. {GW 330.1}
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Satan declared that there is no forgiveness with God; that if God should forgive sin, he would make his law of no effect. He says to the sinner, You are lost. {RH, January 19, 1911 par. 16}
Christ came to this world to prove the falsity of this statement, to show that God is love, that like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him. Follow the Saviour from the manger to the cross, mark his life of unselfish ministry, his agony in the garden, and his death on the cross; and know that with God there is plenteous forgiveness. He abhors sin, but with a love that passes knowledge he loves the sinner. {RH, January 19, 1911 par. 17}
God will forever remember those whom He has lost.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/23/14 11:42 PM
God will forever remember those whom He has lost.
The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}
One reminder alone remains: Our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of His crucifixion. Upon His wounded head, upon His side, His hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought. Says the prophet, beholding Christ in His glory: “He had bright beams coming out of His side: and there was the hiding of His power.” Habakkuk 3:4, margin. That pierced side whence flowed the crimson stream that reconciled man to God—there is the Saviour’s glory, there “the hiding of His power.” “Mighty to save,” through the sacrifice of redemption,
He was therefore strong to execute justice upon them that despised God’s mercy. And the tokens of His humiliation are His highest honor; through the eternal ages the wounds of Calvary will show forth His praise and declare His power. {GC 674.2}
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/24/14 01:08 AM
Yes, only one outward physical reminder will remain.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/24/14 07:52 PM
God will forever remember those whom He has lost.
Ezekiel 21:32
King James Version (KJV)
32
Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land;
thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the Lord have spoken it.
Jeremiah 31:34 "I will remember their sin no more."
If God can forget the sinful past of our lives, then what makes you think He will remember those who perished in His presence? (written by APL as if He dwells on them forever) Doesn't the fact that they disappear as if they never existed refute your statement?
"They who have been “accounted worthy” of the resurrection of life are “blessed and holy.” “On such the second death hath no power.” Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death.
Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: “Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”Psalm 37:10; (ED; You will not be able to bring it to mind) And another declares: “
They shall be as though they had not been.” Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}
But APL has spoken that the Lord will always have the pain of their loss on His soul. God has sworn that He will forget them.
It may just be that you make a lot of mistakes in the doctrines of our faith in ignorance, but man it seems as if you are here just to confuse as many as you can about the truth.
If it is ignorance I do pray for you like a brother. If it is to be maniacal, I hope you are severely tested to wake up. And that goes for quite a few people on this site. In the name of Jesus amen.
A heavy curse rested upon the Serpent in Eden, because he was the medium Satan used to tempt our first parents to transgress.
And whoever yields themselves to subvert others, a heavy curse from God will follow them. And although those who permit themselves to be led astray, and learn vile habits, will suffer for their sin, yet those guilty of instructing them, will also suffer for their own sins, and the sins they led others to commit.
It were better for such if they had never been born. {ApM 30.1}
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/24/14 09:55 PM
jsot - will Christ retain the marks in His hands and His side? When we ask Him, why do you have these, will He say, "I have no idea!". When David and Bathsheba meet in heaven with Solomon, and along come Uriah, will Uriah not know who David and Bathsheba are? Will there not be a knowledge of how Solomon ultimately came about? Yes, they will know. Will it matter? NO. Why? Because sin is gone.
The mistake is thinking that our behaviors (10C) are the sin when they are only the symptoms. A person has cough and fever, what is the diagnosis? Cough? Fever? No, look deeper. Pneumonia and lets say it is caused by tuberculosis! You don't cure the disease by treating the cough and fever, you treat the disease. When you treat the disease, the symptoms go away, and the person because safe to be around again. That is the plan of redemption. We will not forget where we have been or what we have done.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/25/14 06:44 AM
We wont have to ask Jesus, we will be forgiven and that is all we will have to remember.
"The horrible details of crime and misery need not to be lived over, and none who believe the truth for this time should act a part in perpetuating their memory." {3TT 164.2}
But Jesus will? Forgiveness is never having to say your sorry again.
I couldn't find the quote in the limited time I have but there is a quote from Mrs White where she said that under the tree of life she was asked about even the trials and she couldn't bring them to memory let alone any sin.
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/25/14 08:45 AM
Your quote is not about the new earth. It is about books published today with heart-sickening crimes and atrocities. We don't need to read that stuff.
You say we will be forgiven but forgiven of what? Makes no sense. Uriah will know what happened to him. Solomon will know where he came from. But that is not the point! The point is that those saved will be safe to be around. The sin has been removed!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/25/14 06:32 PM
Your quote is not about the new earth. It is about books published today with heart-sickening crimes and atrocities. We don't need to read that stuff.
You say we will be forgiven but forgiven of what? Makes no sense. Uriah will know what happened to him. Solomon will know where he came from. But that is not the point! The point is that those saved will be safe to be around. The sin has been removed!
What about this quote? Ezekiel 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land;
thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the Lord have spoken it.
You are very selective in the way you address things.
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/25/14 08:22 PM
I'm selective?- - <grin> - - You chose a quote about present day books and apply it to the world to come, and that is not selective??? It is creative!
Do you not believe that David, Bathsheba, Solomon and Uriah will not remember their history? They will remember. It won't matter because they are changed.
Posted By: Johann
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 01:42 AM
I'm selective?- - <grin> - - You chose a quote about present day books and apply it to the world to come, and that is not selective??? It is creative!
Do you not believe that David, Bathsheba, Solomon and Uriah will not remember their history? They will remember. It won't matter because they are changed.
Unless God decides to destroy all the copies of Scripture to prevent us from seeing anything from the past? Is there a Scriptural support for this idea?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 05:42 AM
So you think we are going to have our forgiven sins brought to memory throughout eternity? Are you guys mad? Don't you know what forgiveness is?
Do you know what the book of remembrance is?
UNFORGIVEN sins are brought before the whole universe durring the 1000 years of Judgment but forgiven sins are put on the head of the scape goat at the second coming so their record is GONE! But you would have to know something about the scapegoat or the book of remembrance to know these things.
"The mansions that Jesus has gone to prepare for all who love Him will be peopled by those who are free from sin. But sins that are not confessed will never be forgiven; the name of him who thus rejects the grace of God will be blotted out of the book of life. The time is at hand when every secret thing shall be brought into judgment, and then there will be many confessions made that will astonish the world. The secrets of all hearts will be revealed. The confession of sin will be most public. The sad part of it is that confession then made will be too late to benefit the wrongdoer or to save others from deception. It only testifies that his condemnation is just.... You may now close the book of your remembrance in order to escape confessing your sins, but when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, you cannot close them. The recording angel has testified that which is true. All that you have tried to conceal and forget is registered, and will be read to you when it is too late for wrongs to be righted.... Unless your sins are canceled, they will testify against you at that day.29 {TMK 238.3}
So conversely this should prove that if your sins are canceled they will NOT testify against you.
"Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.” Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: “When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, ... all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned.” Ezekiel 18:24. {CIHS 119.1}
Every person who has not accepted forgiveness will be blotted out, which means erraced.
"All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: “I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.” Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.” “Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.” Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {CIHS 119.2}
The book of life is a record of those who have accepted Christ as savior, but more than that, they are the only people from this planet who will appear to have ever lived.
You guys are something else. Especially you Pastor.
Don't you know that when we go to heaven we will not be able to remember our sins? If we have the good fortune of making it, then we will have righteous amnesia. God even forgets the sins that have been forgiven. And the men who are destroyed at the second resurrection are forgotten forever.
Do you think we carry our bibles with us to heaven before the earth is cleansed? What survives is righteous thoughts, not memories of sin.
An SDA pastor should know these things.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 05:58 AM
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited.” Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward. All business was laid aside, and the whole congregation of Israel spent the day in solemn humiliation before God, with prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart. {CIHS 35.3}
You guys need to start studying more and talking less, you would be a lot better of than to continually lump errors on your heads claiming the name of Lord in guidance.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 06:14 AM
On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people. {CIHS 97.1}
The high priest leaving the sanctuary represents the end of probation, the scapegoat is led to the land of FORGETFULNESS! The sins are forever gone.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 06:24 AM
"...pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.” (August 4) 1850, EGW Manuscript Releases (Silver Spring, MD: E. G. White Estate, 1993),
"He will come to the door of the tabernacle, or door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues come upon the wicked, and they do not come until Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and takes His seat upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling the scape goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape Israel would be destroyed (or slain). I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head. . . .As Jesus passed through the holy place or first apartment, to the door to confess the sins of Israel on the scape goat, an angel said, This apartment is called the sanctuary.
Learn your bibles then try to teach others please.
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 07:22 AM
That's right. Sins are forgotten. But are the symptoms we suffered? When a person is healed, they remember the pain they went through, but they no longer remember the disease. Sin is a disease. Bad behaviors are symptoms of the disease. Uriah will know where Solomon came from. David And Bathsheba will remember. But they are healed. And they will be grateful for God for healing (saving) them. All of them will be safe to be around. Sin is gone.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 01:51 PM
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Will it matter to Uriah?
Ye of little faith.
Posted By: APL
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 05:33 PM
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Will it matter to Uriah?
Ye of little faith.
Many people remarry after the death of a spouse. It won't matter in heaven. We will know each other in heaven and we will know our relationship to each other. And we will know who is missing. And we will see them again after the 1000 years, only they will be on the other side of the wall. Will we forget why they are on the other side? No.
Posted By: Johann
Re: God's love not unconditional - 02/26/14 07:36 PM
We Will Know One Another—God’s greatest gift is Christ, whose life is ours, given for us. He died for us, and was raised for us, that we might come forth from the tomb to a glorious companionship with heavenly angels, to meet our loved ones and to recognize their faces, for the Christlikeness does not destroy their image, but transforms it into His glorious image. Every saint connected in family relationship here will know each other there.—Letter 79, 1898 quoted in Selected Messages 3:316. {Hvn 39.2}