The Conversion Controversy
Posted By: Mountain Man
The Conversion Controversy - 10/01/04 06:01 AM
I'm hoping we can thoroughly study the truth concerning conversion, rebirth, and moral perfection. There are basically two opposing schools of thought:
1. We are born again with our defective traits of character. During the process of conversion, after we are converted and born again, we gradually, under the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit, outgrow and overcome our moral imperfections, in light of the cross. We also, so long as we are connected to Christ, grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit. Eventually our old man habits of sin are crucified.
2. During the process of conversion, before we are converted and born again, we gradually, under the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit, confess our moral imperfections, in light of the cross. Eventually our old man habits of sin are crucified, and we are born again without our defective traits of character. And then, so long as we are connected to Christ, we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit.
What is the truth? What does the Bible say?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 06:14 AM
For some time now I have hoped and prayed that we would study this subject thoroughly. In the past, when we have studied it, the discussion ended before any clear conclusions were drawn. I believe this topic is more important than any other. The differences between the two opposing views, outlined above, are more than mere symantics. One or the other is gravely wrong and should be exposed, while the other should be widely advocated. What is the truth?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 06:56 AM
The following passages help to define and describe conversion, rebirth and moral perfection. What do they mean to you? Which view do they support?
Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John
5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Philippians
4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
2 Peter
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/01/04 07:42 PM
If we are to go ahead with another topic of this nature, then we need to do it step-by-step and not move on until common ground/agreement has been established.
So let us begin by first determining what our common ground is on this topic.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/01/04 10:09 PM
Common Ground
1. Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to make atonement available and to make rebirth possible.
2. Jesus left "us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:21, 22.
3. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15.
4. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5, 6.
5. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:6, 7.
6. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ . . . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 1:6 and 2:13.
7. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13.
8. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Galatians 5:16.
9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.
10. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 04:28 AM
Mike Lowe posted a Common Ground post.
Does everybody agree, or does anybody disagree, with what Mike posted in that post?
If nobody responds either way, then I will assume that everybody agrees with what Mike posted there.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 04:45 AM
Only a fool would not agree with strings of Bible quotes: it is the addendums and conclusions drawn from them that are in question.
Daryl Silence to Mike's issuing in yet another form of this topic should not be considered as a vote. Many do not wish to dance to this tune any longer after 4 years of lengthy discussion.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 06:58 AM
Addendums and Conclusions
1. Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to make atonement available and to make rebirth possible.
The life and death of Jesus gives God the legal right to pardon our confessed and forsaken sins, and it gives Him the right to offer us salvation, full and free.
2. Jesus left "us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:21, 22.
The sinless life of Jesus is our example, our expectation, and our experience.
3. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15.
Although Jesus was tempted in every way we are, He never sinned. So it may be with us. Committing a known sin is optional, not automatic.
4. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5, 6.
When we are born again, we are born of the Spirit. Jesus was also born of the Spirit. The new man is not a modification of the old man. We are born again altogether new creatures in Christ. See 2 Cor 5:17.
5. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:6, 7.
If our old man habits of sin are dead and buried, we are free from sin. We are no longer the slaves of sin. Henceforth, we are free to reproduce the righteousness of Christ.
6. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ . . . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 1:6 and 2:13.
Our ability to obey God, and to live in harmony with His will and way, is made possible by the indwelling Spirit of God.
7. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13.
God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist unto His honor and glory. Consequently, there is no excuse for commiting a known sin.
8. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Galatians 5:16.
If we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We have ceased from sin. See 1 Peter 4:1, 2.
9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.
If we have experienced the miracle of rebirth, and if we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
10. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2.
When we are free from sin, we are free to sin. But, in order to commit a known sin, we must first disconnect ourselves from Jesus, and then all we can do is sin. But the gift of repentance empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to forgive us and to restore the relationship our sin severed.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 07:07 AM
In light of common ground, based on Scripture, are we born again with or without our defective traits of character, our former habits of sin?
[ October 02, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 06:36 AM
Do we gradually outgrow and overcome our moral imperfections, our defective traits of character, after we are born again?
Or, do we gradually confess them and crucify them, during the process of conversion, before we are born again?
When do we actually crucify our old man habits of sin? Before or after we are born again?
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Posted By: Restin
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/02/04 09:28 PM
Frankly, the only people i know who seem to be perfect are those I really havn't known for very long. I'm 63 years old now and don't know one solitary person at all, young or old, who is actually perfect...that is, who does not demonstrate some fault or other. I've been out in the world of employment for 50 years and in the SDA church for 60 years and havn't yet seen a faultless person, unless they are a quadraplaigic with Alzheimers, or something like that. So, did I miss something? I would love to meet a perfect man. Tell me where I can find one so I can move next door to him and maybe be his best friend, or maybe even his wife some day!!!
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Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 03:41 AM
Restin, you're too funny. I love it. Thank you for being so frank. But think about it. The most perfect person in the world, Jesus, was accused of being demon possessed. Peter, James and Paul, who were very Christlike, were put to death as evil-doers.
Peter described newborn believers this way: "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." 1 Peter 2:1-3. Concerning someone who has laid aside all evil speakings, James wrote: "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2.
That's the good news. When we experience the miracle of rebirth, when our old man is dead and buried, when we are connected to Christ, when we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It's that simple.
However, as born again believers, we are always free to disconnect ourselves from Jesus, our only source of success, and resurrect our old man and revert to our sinful ways. But if we do back slide and commit a known sin, the Holy Spirit immediately begins offering us the free gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, plus, it gives God the legal right to pardon us, and to restore the relationship our sin severed.
The promises of perfection only apply to us while we are connected to Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Otherwise, when we resurrect our old man and revert to our sinful ways, there are other promises that apply, namely, 1 John 2:1, 2. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Does that make better sense?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 07:50 AM
A couple of questions. First of all, what does this mean?
"The life and death of Jesus gives God the legal right to pardon our confessed and forsaken sins, and it gives Him the right to offer us salvation, full and free."
How does the life and death of Jesus give God the legal right to pardon? Did God not have the legal right to pardon sin apart from Christ's death? If not, how does Christ's death make is "legal". In what sense would it have been "illegal" if God had chosen to pardon sin apart from Christ's death? Also I suppose I should ask what "legally pardon" means.
Here's how I see things. Sin is rebellion. Legally pardoning rebellion does not fix the problem if the rebellion is not removed from the heart of the rebel. In order to remove rebellion from our rebel hearts, God instituted the plan of salvation, including the life and death of Christ. Through a revelation of Himself in Christ Jesus, God is able to restore us to His image, if we do not resist His grace.
Regarding perfection, EGW says the following in commenting on Matt. 5:48 "God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." (MB 76)
I think this puts a good perspective on things. God will make us like Jesus (i.e. perfect us) if we don't resist His grace.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 08:00 AM
Tom, are you inferring doubts based on the Broader View? Just curious. If so, we should discuss that topic on a different thread. Just exactly why the shed blood of Jesus was necessary and required is a wonderful study.
Also, I like what you posted about God making us perfect. But when? When are we perfect in Christ? And, in what sense? forensically (imputed), intrinsically (imparted), or both?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 08:22 AM
I think a study on why the shedding of Christ's blood was necessary would indeed be a wonderful study. I certainly don't have all the answers, as this is a profound study that will be go on for all eternity, but I'd be happy to share the thoughts I have and to try to arrive at a better understanding myself.
I'll share a couple of thoughts already as they tie in with your perfection questions. I think that Christ's work from a forensic standpoint was corporate in nature. From an individual standpoint I think that God restores us to His image in a way which is in harmony with His character, or, to put it another way, in harmony with the principles of His government. This is to a large extant what I think the legal statements mean when they refer to the individual.
EGW tells us that the decision not to go to heaven is voluntary with the wicked and that God accepts their choice. Legally God has made it possible for them to go to heaven, but if they don't want to be there, He won't force them to.
Regarding perfection, I believe the whole world was justified in Christ. That justification is made effective in the life of the believer when he is justified by faith. That is, when a person responds to the love of God shining from the cross, He is led in repentence for his sins and he is tranformed; the law is written in his heart, and every thought is brought captive to Christ. He has peace with God, not because God has changed, but because he has. He views God in a new way, as a Savior, as a Friend, as Someone he wants to worship, serve, and obey. Not because he has to in order to gain heaven or avoid hell, but because he admires God's character as it is revealed in Christ, and he wants to.
Regarding perfection, if perfection is defined as sanctification, then inspiration makes it clear that that is the work of a lifetime.
======
Removed quote of previous post. - Daryl
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[ October 03, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/04/04 06:42 AM
Beautifully put, Tom. Thank you. It did my heart good this morning to read your post. God is good. As I see it, we are born again justified and sanctified. In Christ, we are morally perfect. Our old man traits of character are dead and buried. We are new creatures.
However, we are not born again morally mature. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. And like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured morally and mentally from childhood to manhood, so too we begin perfect and we become perfect as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is indeed the work of a lifetime, but it is the result of lifelong obedience, not, as some seem to think (not you), the result of a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less and until we eventually cease sinning.
So long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are connected to Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, the growth we experience in Christ involves becoming more and more righteous, not less and less sinful. We advance from one stage of perfection to another, from grace to grace, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory. Not from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin.
The righteousness of God is "revealed" from glory to glory as we live by faith empowered by grace. It is revealed, not received. In other words, when we are born again, and receive the implanted sinless mind of the new man, it (the mind of the new man) comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God, and all the fruits of the Spirit. The fulness of God's righteousness is inherent in the mind of the new man, and is revealed, not accumulated, more perfectly as we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit.
John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/03/04 08:10 PM
What do you mean "connected to Christ"? You wrote earlier that before we can sin, we have to disconnect ourselves from Christ. What does that mean? What about a reactive sin, like thinking or saying a bad word when someone cuts you off in traffic?
Christ's Object Lessons---- First the Blade, Then the Ear-----PG- 63
"The parable of the seed reveals that God is at work in nature. The seed has in itself a germinating principle, a principle that God Himself has implanted; yet if left to itself
the seed would have no power to spring up. Man has his part to act in promoting the growth of the grain. He must prepare and enrich the soil and cast in the seed. He must till the fields. But there is a point beyond which he can accomplish nothing. No strength or wisdom of man
can bring forth from the seed the living plant. Let man put forth his efforts to the utmost limit, he must still depend upon One who has connected the sowing and the reaping by wonderful links of His own omnipotent power.
God's Amazing Grace--- The Divine Order of Growth
-PG- 283
"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can
be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is
the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in
proportion to our privileges."
New birth is just the beginning...Justification.
Our walk/progress with Christ is the purification process which leads to maturity/sanctification. The two go hand in hand, one is our belief and the other is growing by faith into the full stature of Christ. the choices are both active for we need the new birth daily, the growth daily to reack the full corn in the ear.;
"there is first a beginning in our understanding, then a progression then the completion."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/04/04 02:33 AM
By "connected to Christ" I mean abiding in Him, like the vine and the branch, like the cable and the trolley car.
John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
2 John
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike.
According to the quotes Charlene shared, we are born again with inherent righteousness and true holiness. As we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit, the righteousness of Christ is revealed from faith to faith, from glory to glory, like an unfolding plant reveals its inherent perfection day after day until it blooms in all its glory.
By the way, the undeveloped, unrevealed portion of a plant does not symbolize unknown defective traits of character. Sometimes people quote the growing plant illustration to mean as we grow and develop as Christians we gradually become less and less sinful. But the plant symbolizes how the righteousness of Christ is revealed more and more unto to the perfect day.
As we grow in grace, the righteousness inherent in the mind of the new man unfolds like a plant advancing from one stage of perfection to another stage of perfection. We begin as candlelight, and every day we shine brighter and brighter becoming more and more like Jesus. But His righteousness outshines the sun, thus eternity isn't long enough to stop growing and maturing.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
HP 186
It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity. {HP 186.6}
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/04/04 07:51 AM
"Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike."
Certainly this is true, but my question has to do with how you are defining things. Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.
There are a great many examples similar to this one I could give.
James tells us that for one to know to do right and not do it is sin. So known sin would incorporate any right thing that one knows that one refrains from doing. I would also submit that it is not necessary to "disconnect" oneself from Jesus to do this.
Also the Bible tells us that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So any known action not done from faith is sin.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the science of how to cultivate faith is the most important science there is. Or something like that. This is a science that is learned.
To not be misunderstood, I agree completely that sin can be overcome, and indeed the 144,000 will completely overcome sin. However, I do not think your characterization of how the process works is correct.
When I asked what it meant to be "connected" to Christ, you said "abide", but that's just another metaphor. It begs the question, what does it mean to abide in Christ?
Here's how I look at things. God will take anyone to heaven who would be comfortable there. He will make us all like Christ if we do not interpose a perverse will and frustrate His grace. I think this is a more positive way of looking at the process.
God is constantly seeking to reveal Himself to us. By beholding, we become changed. This is how He restores us to His image. This is why the Spirit of Prophesy suggests we spend a thoughtful hour contemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. As a result of this, we become sanctified; we become more like Christ.
What do you think?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/04/04 01:48 PM
Couldn't agee with you more, Tom E.!
Glad you are a plain speaker.
For me the latter scenes of Christ's life show utter lack of self-defense, ego, or concern for what others said or did to His "dignity". Even when Peter heard the cock's crow at his denial, Christ did not say "See, Peter? See what you've done to Me?"
Ellen White never wrote one rebuttal to any of her Sunday-keeping detractors. Why?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 06:12 AM
Tom, the idea that we gradually overcome a known sin by sinning less and less intensely until we are no longer tempted sounds reasonable, but is it biblical? Where in the Bible or the SOP is such an idea described? Where does it say we commit known sins even while we are abiding in Christ? Where does it say only the 144,000 are capable of living without sinning?
I have posted several scripture passages that seem to suggest quite the opposite. I have been unable to find where God says, Go, and taper off sinning. In Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin; apart from Christ we cannot not sin. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. There doesn't seem to be any other way.
Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
2 Peter
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
HP 56
Christ has provided means whereby our whole life may be an unbroken communion with Himself; but the sense of Christ's abiding presence can come only through living faith. . . . {HP 56.5}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 06:26 AM
Ikan, it's one thing to disagree with the ideas I've been sharing, as always you are entitled to your own opinion, but it would be nice if you could back up your objections with inspired quotes. Please feel free to share the truth. Thank you.
I guess i just post to thin air.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 02:13 AM
Charlene, here's what I posted right after your post:
quote:
According to the quotes Charlene shared, we are born again with inherent righteousness and true holiness. As we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit, the righteousness of Christ is revealed from faith to faith, from glory to glory, like an unfolding plant reveals its inherent perfection day after day until it blooms in all its glory.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 02:37 AM
Tom and Charlene are doing the quoting of proofs just fine, Mike. "He who has an ear, let him hear"
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 02:43 AM
Just a few verses from 1 John show, to my mind, that Mike's way of thinking here is not sound.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -- 1 John 1:9
Who is the "we" John is describing here?
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;..." -- 1 John 1:1
Whoever "we" is, John himself is a part of that group, since "we" saw Christ with their own eyes, handled Him with their own hands.
So -- John is a part of the group that has a possibility of sinning, as mentioned in verse 9. Nowhere is there the first hint that whoever sins, first has to disconnect themselves completely from Christ. Was John disconnected completely from Christ if and when he sinned? There's nothing about such a scenario in the Bible. No, he asked for forgiveness and received it. We're not "cast off" every time we sin. If so, it would mean the Holy Spirit moves into our bodies ('connected'), then out of us before we sin ('disconnected'). Then back in when we confess and repent. I don't think that's the way it is.
In the ancient Hebrew economy, was it true that when an Israelite sinned, he had automatically left the camp beforehand, thereby disconnecting himself from God? No. He sinned where he was, then brought an animal to be sacrificed as a substitute for him. Sure, there could come a point where an Israelite who continued in sin could be cut off from the body of believers and from God's salvation, the same as it is with Christians today. But it didn't happen every time a sin was committed. If it didn't happen in the type, it doesn't happen in the antitype either.
Now, I believe wholeheartedly that it's possible to cease from sinning, completely and totally. In the here and now, not just when the 144,000 appear, or after the close of probation. Ellen White wrote, "There are Enochs in this our day."
{COL 332.1}
But I don't agree with Mike's salvation methodology as stated here and in many other places throughout MSDAOL.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 02:53 AM
Regarding the 144,000, it is my belief that there experience will be unique. This is because the live at a time where there will be no Mediator. This requires victory over all sin, not just known sin. I also believe this cleansing from sin is corporate in nature. That is, it is not a case of 144,000 individual believers each overcoming sin on their own, but a corporate experience experienced by all who open their hearts to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which will be a revelation of God's love, His character, by way of clearer light and understanding with respect to the Gospel. (wow, long sentence!)
Regarding our own experience, I think if we focus on sin we are doomed to failure. The process I described above I believe is in line with reality, and certainly Scripture will be in agreement with reality. We are creatures of habit; bad habits take time to overcome and new habits take time to form. God understands this, as He made us. And perhaps our definition of sin is not the same as His.
There is no excuse for sin, and God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able. I believe this, and believe that victory over sin is possible, for any believer at any time. However, that victory will come, I believe, by way of an appreciation of God's character as revealed by Jesus Christ, not by focusing on sin itself.
The way God restores us to the image of Christ is by revealing Himself to us, for it is by beholding that we become changed. If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, God will make us like Jesus. This should be our goal, and our emphasis, I believe.
Thanks for acknowledging the quotes. I think they apply to the subject.
My concern with this presentation by Nike is it seems to be free from battles. It seems after the new birth..."happy ever after time is here".
That is not the case. We have a sinful nature that must be put away. we fail, we fall we battle but we may always have the choice to get up and try again and choose that Jesus has the answers if we just let Him. He havn't let Jesus so we trip yp, stug our toes. it is not "new Birth ' and slide into heaven. read the chapter on talents in the book 'Christ object sessons." pages 331-333 Satan does not like his folks taking jesus seriously....he has all kind of thing to divert our attention. sins need to be forsaken yes. i guess what i am saying is it doen't come at once.
There is a process.....understanding..followed by progression and then maturity. i don't see new birth and maturity in the same place i see new birth beginning the process and maturity the result. but...there is war, in between the war of self. Self does not die easy and what we think is death of the 'old man' may not be....there may still be envy in lur hearts. this is why we must die daily ...each commitment takes us farther in Christ. The propmise i hang on to is "he will finish in us what He has started" IF we cooperate with Him. Don't make it sound easy,,,there are struggles/trials/ from the unseen enemy. our victory is in Jesus we know thr road is narrow and the path is dangerous but God will make us sure footed if we take his hand.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 05:28 AM
In First John chapter one John is addressing the Gnostic idea that we are sinless spiritual beings who do not need to repent because we have never sinned. But the Bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23. John says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
1 John
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We cannot use this passage to prove that born again believers continue to commit known sins while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. God forbid. John, and other NT authors (including Sister White), plainly teach that we do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, like the vine and the branch. The only place, in the entire Bible, where post-conversion sinning is mentioned is the following scripture:
1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Please notice that this promise does not say "when any man sin", no, it clearly says, "if any man sin." But even this promise is prefaced with the following promise, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." John is clear - In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Period! But he also warns:
1 John
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Please notice what John says about sinning. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him . . . He that committeth sin is of the devil . . . Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God."
These insights in no way agree with the idea that born again believers can continue to commit known sins while abiding in Christ. In fact, John says exactly the opposite. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous . . . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
John takes these things very seriously. He did not mince his words. "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." 1 John 2:10. Again, his warnings cut like a two-edged sword.
1 John
2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
John writes, "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Anyone who denies this truth denies the Father and the Son. "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." Again, John is straight forward. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 05:41 AM
Charlene, I agree with you that abiding in Christ is a battle and march, if need be we must sweat blood resisting sin, self and Satan. But nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say we gradually outgrow our defective traits of character after we are born again.
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. John is not implying that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. We are always free to resurrect our old man and revert to our old sinful ways. But while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
Like Tom Ewall wrote - our focus must be on Jesus; not sin, not righteousness. When tempted with unholy thoughts and feelings we must labor, agonize, wrestle and strive to stay connected to Jesus. Fighting the good fight of faith means doing whatever it takes to keep our eyes on Jesus, which is a metaphor that means hanging out with Jesus, as with a friend. He must be as real to us as our earthly friends. If He isn't as real to us as our earthly friends, then we must pray until it becomes a reality.
FW 48
We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 05:41 PM
The idea that we can commit a known sin while abiding in Christ, while walking in the Spirit, denies the truth. The Bible says:
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John
4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
God says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil." Man says, "He that committeth sin is of the Lord." Both cannot be correct. Either God is telling the truth and man is liar, or man is telling the truth and God is a liar. "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3:10.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 06:06 AM
Tom, John, Ikan and Charlene:
You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ, while walking in the Spirit, but the inspired passages shared above absolutely refute this idea. Please, show me in the Bible or the SOP where your view is correct. Thank you.
You also seem to believe that sanctification is a process of becoming less and less sinful by gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character, little by little. But where does it say we become more like Jesus by slowly becoming less like Satan?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 08:16 PM
"You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ."
I didn't say this. You first said that before a person could commit a known sin, they had to "disconnect" themselves from Jesus. I asked you what "connected" meant. You said it meant "abide." I asked you what "abide" meant. I couldn't find an answer to that.
If you define "abide" is some way which implies you can't sin without stopping to abide, then I'd have to agree with your conclusion, as it would be a tautology.
I don't wish to be put in the position of defending sin. I wrote there is no excuse for sin, that God will deliver us from any temptation. I don't agree with your perspective, but I do believe it's possible for a Christian to live without sinning. I don't believe one's salvation depends on living without sinning.
I believe God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. He prepares us for heaven by revealing Himself to us; this is how He restores us to His image. By beholding we become changed. So if we wish to progress in the process of becoming more Christ-like, we should discover the truth of what God is really like, which is that He is like Jesus.
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. (DA 480)
This should be our focus.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/05/04 11:21 PM
Amen, Tom. I completely agree with you. We must focus on Jesus; not sin, not righteousness. It is the love of God that softens and subdues our hearts and empowers us to "Go, and sin no more." Focusing on Jesus is what I mean when I use the metaphor of being connected to Him, abiding in Him. Hanging out with Jesus, as with a best friend, is being connected to Him. The Holy Spirit sits solo and supreme upon the throne of our soul temple.
Here are the comments that led me to believe you guys believe born again believers can and do commit known sins while connected to Jesus.
quote:
Tom wrote: Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
quote:
In response to this, Ikan wrote: Couldn't agree with you more, Tom E.!
quote:
John wrote: Nowhere is there the first hint that whoever sins, first has to disconnect themselves completely from Christ.
quote:
Charlene wrote: He havn't let Jesus so we trip yp, stug our toes. it is not "new Birth ' and slide into heaven.
In your last post, Tom, you made it very clear that you believe born again believers cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. But you also seem to make a distinction between being connected to Christ and abiding in Him. What's the difference?
And then there's the other question. Where in the Bible or the SOP is it taught that we become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan? The gradual process you outlined seems to suggest we progress from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin. But I have been unable to verify this idea.
quote:
Tom wrote:
I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.
Also, can you please elaborate on this comment:
quote:
Tom wrote: I don't believe one's salvation depends on living without sinning.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 04:06 AM
quote:
Tom wrote: Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
The point I was making here was thinking a bad word could be understood as a "known sin". I don't know if that's what you had in mind by "known sin" or not. I also wasn't sure what you meant by "connected to Jesus". I should have been more clear. I should have said that "thinking a bad word can be thought of as a known sin". I don't know if that's what you had in mind or not. At any rate, I don't think a Christian has to "disconnect" himself from Christ in order to think a bad word.
Sin involves choice. It involves rebellion. I feel comforatable saying that a Christian will not rebel against God. I think this is in harmony with John's teaching.
The Greek in 1 John 3:9 is in the present continuous, which can be translated "Whosoever is born of God does not go on sinning" or "continue sinning" or "persist in sinning". I don't have an SDA Bible Commentary. I'd be interested to know what it says.
quote:
In your last post, Tom, you made it very clear that you believe born again believers cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.
How'd I do this?
quote:
But you also seem to make a distinction between being connected to Christ and abiding in Him. What's the difference?
I was asking what you meant by these terms. I wasn't intending to make any distinction. I haven't thought about what "connected" means, other than I don't think a Christian has to "disconnect" to think a bad word.
I think the whole idea of thinking of staying connected is the wrong perspective. I have written several times what I think the right perspective is, and will repeat it again.
I think God will take anyone to heaven who would be comfortable there. I think His goodness is leading us to repentence, and if we do not resist He will save us. If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, He will make us like Christ. The way that He does this is by revealing Himself to us.
Saying that our salvation does not depend on our living without sinning means that we do not get to heaven by living sinless lives. We get to heaven by not resisting the grace of God. That grace, if not resisted, will perfect us.
It is not the hope of reward, or the fear of punish, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him, but they behold the beauty of His character.
What is beautiful about Christ's character?
Posted By: Restin
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 04:10 AM
I'm supposing Mike is including himself as one of those converted persons who is now incapable of sinning or having any serious faults of any kind, thereafter. So, Mike, if I took your wife aside and asked her, would she agree that you don't do anything wrong ever, or have any very bad faults or foibles? Forgive nosey here, but I have a hard time putting your theory into real life situations. You can sock me in the eye now, if you feel like it.
![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 05:08 AM
Tom, again, I agree that it is the love of God, the beauty of Christ's character, that motivates us to serve and obey Him.
The thing that gave me the impression you disagree with the following statement . . .
quote:
You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ.
. . . was the following response you posted:
quote:
I didn't say this . . . . If you define "abide" is some way which implies you can't sin without stopping to abide, then I'd have to agree with your conclusion, as it would be a tautology.
Did I misunderstand you?
Also, I believe all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. We must not automatically assume we are guilty of them. We do not become guilty of them until we cherish them or act upon them either in thought, word or deed.
Is that what you meant when you wrote:
quote:
Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
Did you mean to include speaking bad words? Is it possible to say bad things while abiding in Christ?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 05:53 AM
Restin, don't worry, the thought of smacking you never even entered my mind. But you probably knew that. Also, I never said born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Here's what I posted to Charlene (October 04, 2004 11:41 PM):
quote:
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. John is not implying that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. We are always free to resurrect our old man and revert to our old sinful ways. But while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
Do I ever resurrect my old man? Yes, sometimes I do. But doing so does not mean the promises of God are untrue. They only apply while we are abiding in Jesus. Our occasional misdeeds and mistakes are not the standard by which we determine whether or not God's promises are true. Jesus' life and example is the standard. His life proves they are true.
Here's what my wife thinks about it:
Hi Restin, I'm Mike's wife, Barbara. Let me first say that I do not claim to have the knowledge of scripture that the people posting on this site have; in fact, I am what you call a "new babe" in Christ. But I do know in my heart, and agree fully with Mike, that when we are connected to Jesus we cannot sin. I have to say that Mike is one of the most "connected" people I have ever met. I've known him for three years and been married to him for one year (on Oct. 12!), and it has been a very rare occasion when he has fallen into sin, and then it has been a sin of impatience. His consistency of character and love of Christ are two of the very reasons I married him. I think he is a living example of the concept that we are born again morally perfect and we do not sin as long as we are connected to Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 05:05 PM
And then there's the other question. Where in the Bible or the SOP is it taught that we become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan? The gradual process you outlined (quoted below) seems to suggest we progress from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin. But I have been unable to verify this idea.
quote:
Tom wrote:
I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.
Also, in what way does the following meaning and interpretation of 1 John 3:9 differ than the KJV?
quote:
The Greek in 1 John 3:9 is in the present continuous, which can be translated "Whosoever is born of God does not go on sinning" or "continue sinning" or "persist in sinning".
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 05:30 PM
I find it interesting that we keep agreeing that if we want to have victory over sin we should be focusing on Christ, not focusing on sin, yet the conversation keeps coming back to sin.
I believe absolutely in perfection of character, so I'll make that clear. I don't think asking the question, "Do you sin?" is in any way relevant to the conversation. I believe it's possible for the Christian to overcome sin. However, I think the means is not by focusing on sin.
I think John's point in 1 John is equivalent to saying that a born-again Christian will not rebel. When you look at the examples that John gives us sin, he's talking about taking care of your neighbor. If we someone in need, and don't help him, then how can we say the love of God abides in his heart? James says the same thing. So does Paul. Love is the fulfilling of the law.
I don't want to get involved in trying to define minutiae as to what constitutes a known sin or not.
God is gracious and kind. He is wonderfully patient. He understands our struggles. His grace will make us like Jesus, if we don't interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
It is by a revelation of Himself in Christ that God restores us to His image. It is not the fear of punishment or the hope of reward that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him, but they behold the matchless beauty of His character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 05:58 PM
Restin, sometimes people have inflated and unrealistic ideas of what constitutes "righteousness and true godliness". Eph 4:24. In many cases, righteous people and righteousness go unknown and unnoticed. Take Jesus, for example. He lived in realitve obscurity for 30 years. Righteousness is ruddy and rugged, and not nearly as rare and unearthly as we think.
DA 109
The fact that Jesus had for so many years remained in obscurity, giving no special evidence of His mission, gave occasion for doubt as to whether He could be the Promised One. {DA 109.3}
But Jesus was, nonetheless, perfectly godly and righteous. And that's the point. In fact, not only was His righteousness largely overlooked, it was sometimes considered evil and unholy. "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?" John 10:20.
The question is, who is to say we wouldn't have passed by Jesus, during those pre-public ministry days, unimpressed? Even later on, it was more His magic and miracles that made Him so singular and popular, notwithstanding the few souls who were attracted to Him because of His love and kindness.
What I'm getting at is this: our unrealistic ideas of what constitutes righteousness can cause us to doubt the promises of God - the ones that describe newborn babes as new creatures who do not and cannot commit a known sin while connected to Jesus - our unrealistic ideas can cause us to deny, doubt, disbelieve that these promises apply to us, that they actually describe our Christian experience.
Thus, some people, based on their over inflated ideas of godliness and righteousness, do not believe they are godly and righteous. But the problem is, most people are harder on themselves than is biblical. We are usually our worst critic. But if we are born again and connected to Christ, the Bible says we are perfect, morally sinless. The truthfulness of God’s Word does not depend on our feelings. It is true because God say so, not because we do or don’t think so, or feel so.
We must take God at His word, otherwise, we will doubt His word, and His plainly worded promises. The Bible says born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Plain, and simple. That’s what God says. It is our duty and privilege to believe Him, and to take Him at His word.
John
8:34, 36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin . . . If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Galatians
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2 Peter
1:4, 5, 10 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue [knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, and charity] . . . For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
1 John
3:6, 7 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 06:10 AM
Tom, the problem, as I see it, with saying not sinning has nothing to do salvation and beholding the loveliness of Christ's character, is what Jesus Himself said about it.
John
5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
While I agree with you that we cannot resist sin, self and Satan by focusing on not sinning, or by focusing on righteousness, instead we must focus on Christ and Him crucified, but in so saying, the Cross of Christ is all about Jesus dying to pay our sin debt.
The love of God, as revealed on the Cross and the blood of Christ, is all about saving us from sin and sinning. The evidence that God is a God of love, who can be trusted throughout eternity to treat us fairly and to provide a safe, sin-free environment to enjoy eternal life, is the fact He can empower us to live without sinning here and now.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 06:28 AM
What does the SDA Bible Commentary say about 1 John 3:9?
Let me first quote 1 John 3:9 here:
quote:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And here is what the SDA Bible Commentary has to say about that:
quote:
9. Whosoever. Again the apostle uses this comprehensive term (cf. on John 3:16; 1 John 3:4, 6). What he says applies to all who are “born of God.”
Born of God. See on ch. 2:29. But here, unlike ch. 2:29, there is no doubt that the writer is speaking of being born of the Father. John is the only NT author to speak of our being “begotten,” or “born of God” (John 1:13; 1 John 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18). The form of the Greek verb shows that he is referring to those who have been born of God and continue to be His children. He thus includes every Christian who has not returned to the world and thus denied the Lord who redeemed him.
Doth not commit sin. That is, he does not continue to sin, or he does not habitually sin (see on v. 6; the form of the Greek verb here is the same as it is there). The apostle thus characterizes those who have been born of God. They have experienced the new birth, their natures and changed, and they resemble their heavenly Father (see on John 3:3–5; 1 John 3:1). They hate the sin they used to love, and love the virtue they used to despise (see on Rom. 6:2, 6; 7:14, 15). Such people do not continue slaves to their old sins, they do not habitually commit their old mistakes. Divine power has given them the victory over those weaknesses, and is ready to aid them in overcoming other faults of which they may not previously have been aware.
His seed. That is, God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent), which, implanted in a sinner, brings the new man to birth and produces the Christian. This divine “seed” abides in the truly converted man, ensures him spiritual energy, and enables him successfully to resist sin. John thus gives God the credit for the Christian’s sinlessness. Because the divine power operates in his soul, the Christian does not continue to sin.
Cannot sin. Or, “is not able to go on sinning,” or “is not able to go on habitually sinning.” This does not mean that the Christian is incapable of committing a wrong act. If he were unable to sin, there would be no virtue in his being without sin, and there would be no true development of character. John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1). The passage means that, having been born of God, and having God’s life-giving power dwelling in him, he cannot continue his old pattern of habitual sin. He now follows the sinless ideals that have been implanted in his soul by the new birth.
It also gave reference to 1 John 3:6 quoted below:
quote:
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
And the SDA Bible Commentary says:
quote:
6. Whosoever abideth. Another of John’s comprehensive statements (cf. chs. 2:23; 3:4, 9, 15; 1 John 4:15; 5:1). The word “abideth” may suggest an active willingness to remain in union with Christ. The form of the verb in Greek implies continuity—whosoever continues to abide.
Sinneth not. Or, “does not continue to sin,” or “does not habitually sin,” as the form of the Greek verb implies. The apostle is here speaking of habitual sin, not of occasional mistakes which every Christian is prone to make (see on ch. 2:1). John knows that Christians are inveigled into sin (ch. 1:8, 10), but he also knows the remedy for such failures (chs. 1:9; 2:1). Here he is speaking of the ideal state that is attainable by one who habitually abides in the protecting presence of the sinless Saviour.
Whosoever sinneth. That is, whosoever habitually sins (see above on “whosoever abideth”). John refers to the one who habitually sins, the one who continues to practice sin.
Hath not seen. The one who continues to sin demonstrates that he has not retained his original vision of Christ.
Know him. See on ch. 2:3.
The SDA Commentary on the above verses clearly says that the Greek word implies continual and habitual sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 07:05 PM
Here's what the author above said:
quote:
John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1).
And here's what John said:
quote:
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Whereas the author says John implies we will sin, John himself, on the other hand, says, If any man sin. The difference is significant. He doesn't say, When we sin. Instead, he clearly says, If we sin. There is no excuse for committing a known sin. Yes, there are reasons, but they don't count as excuses.
In this next quote, the author is in agreement with John:
quote:
Here he is speaking of the ideal state that is attainable by one who habitually abides in the protecting presence of the sinless Saviour.
This is also what I'm saying. If we are abiding in Jesus, we will not commit a known sin. Obviously, therefore, in order to commit a known we must first disconnect from Jesus.
It is unbiblical to quote 1 John 2:1 and 3:6 and 3:9 to prove that born again believers will sin, but that they will not long continue in that sin, that they will quickly repent, as if sinning and repenting is a normal part of abiding in Jesus. Sister White put it this way:
quote:
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/06/04 07:34 PM
Again, please listen to how Sister White describes abiding in Jesus.
AA 563
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}
There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed. {AA 563.2}
AH 403
Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences which will result from one wrong, hasty step! Our only safety is to be shielded by the grace of God every moment, and not put out our own spiritual eyesight so that we will call evil, good, and good, evil. Without hesitation or argument we must close and guard the avenues of the soul against evil. {AH 403.1}
Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {AH 403.2}
DA 675, 676
"I am the Vine, ye are the branches," Christ said to His disciples. Though He was about to be removed from them, their spiritual union with Him was to be unchanged. The connection of the branch with the vine, He said, represents the relation you are to sustain to Me. The scion is engrafted into the living vine, and fiber by fiber, vein by vein, it grows into the vine stock. The life of the vine becomes the life of the branch. So the soul dead in trespasses and sins receives life through connection with Christ. By faith in Him as a personal Saviour the union is formed. The sinner unites his weakness to Christ's strength, his emptiness to Christ's fullness, his frailty to Christ's enduring might. Then he has the mind of Christ. The humanity of Christ has touched our humanity, and our humanity has touched divinity. Thus through the agency of the Holy Spirit man becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is accepted in the Beloved. {DA 675.3}
This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained. Christ said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me." This is no casual touch, no off-and-on connection. The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. {DA 676.1}
"Abide in Me, and I in you." Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2}
The root sends its nourishment through the branch to the outermost twig. So Christ communicates the current of spiritual strength to every believer. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay. {DA 676.3}
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 01:21 AM
(thanks Daniel for the SDABC quote)
"Tom, the problem, as I see it, with saying not sinning has nothing to do salvation and beholding the loveliness of Christ's character, is what Jesus Himself said about it."
That's not what I said. I try to be careful with the things I write, so please be careful in quoting me. What I said is that our salvation does not depend upon our living sinlessly. That's not the same thing as saying that not sinning has nothing to do with salvation by a long, long way.
I think the Bible Commentary is correct. When John said "if anyone sins" that means it is implied that someone might/would sin. We know from practical experience that we can and do sin. John wants us not to get discouraged if that happens. The use of the word "if" means that sinning is not inevitable.
I would say that not sinning is possible, and should be our goal, although I think if we think of it in those terms it will never be acheived. If we think about not sinning in terms of beholding Christ, then I think God has a chance of achieving His purposes for us.
You are saying that we have to disconnect from Christ in order to commit a known sin. The Bible Commentary was saying that one who habitually abides in Christ may attain the state where he doesn't sin. I think what the Bible Commentary is saying is in harmony with what John wrote, and I also thing what EGW wrote is in harmony with that. I didn't see anything in her quotes that would deny that.
This is not to say that sinless living is impossible. Inspiration clearly teaches there is no excuse for sin. That's not the same thing as what you are saying, however. You're saying, as I understand it, that the ideal MUST be the reality. I understand inspiration is saying the ideal SHOULD be the reality; it is something to strive for.
I still don't like this way of thinking about it. A much more positive way of looking at things is that God will make us like Jesus if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. He does this by revealing Christ to us. By beholding we become changed.
This puts the focus where it should be: on God, on Christ, not on us, and not on sin.
Why should we even care about not sinning? (serious question, I'm getting at motivation here)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 03:45 AM
quote:
Why should we even care about not sinning?
Hebrews
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
TDG 98
Our hearts cannot reflect light until there is a vital connection with heaven. This alone can make them burn steadily with holy, unselfish love for Jesus, and for all who are the purchase of His blood. And unless we are constantly replenished with the golden oil, the flame will die out. Unless the love of God is an abiding principle in our hearts, our light will go out. . . . {TDG 98.2}
Satan and his confederate angels point to those who profess to be children of God, but who by their disposition and actions show that they are after the similitude of the apostate, and taunt Christ and the heavenly angels. How long shall we thus crucify the Son of God afresh, so that God is ashamed to call us His sons and daughters? {TDG 98.3}
TDG 339
All who learn in Christ's school are under the training of heavenly agencies; and they are never to forget that they are a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. They are to represent Christ. They are to help one another to become worthy of admission into the higher school. They are to help one another to be pure and noble, and to cherish a true idea of what it means to be a child of God. They are to speak encouraging words. They are to lift up the feeble hands and strengthen the feeble knees. Upon every heart there is to be inscribed the words, as with the point of a diamond, "There is nothing that I fear, save that I shall not know my duty, or shall fail to do it." We are living in a time when we should seek the Lord most earnestly. . . . {TDG 339.2}
There are many ways in which human beings can crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame. The worship of worldly business so confuses the mind that Satan stealthily approaches, and insidiously gains entrance. He has many theories by which to lead astray those who will be led. The erroneous views of God that the world is entertaining are skepticism in disguise, preparing the way for atheism. By hasty words and selfish deeds, men often grieve the heart of Christ. thus Satan works untiringly to lead them to disloyalty. As he gains control of minds, he makes upon them lasting impressions, and the realities of eternity fade away. {TDG 339.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 04:00 AM
quote:
This is not to say that sinless living is impossible. Inspiration clearly teaches there is no excuse for sin. That's not the same thing as what you are saying, however. You're saying, as I understand it, that the ideal MUST be the reality. I understand inspiration is saying the ideal SHOULD be the reality; it is something to strive for.
The ideal IS the reality when we are connected to Jesus. That's the only time, and the only way, it can be. Without Christ all we can do is sin. Inspirations agrees.
quote:
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
Jesus is our example. He never sinned. Why? Because He was habitually connected to the Father. Just because born again believers occasionally backslide does not mean humanity, combined with divinity, can and does sin occasionally.
If, as you say, there is no excuse for committing a known sin, there must be a reason why it is true. And that reason would have to apply to all sin, great and small, hard and easy, intentional and unintentional. God will not allow us to be tempted, tested or tried above His ability to empower us to resist unto and His honor and glory.
Since there is no excuse for committing a known sin, we can take God at His word. We do not have to dilute it or change it to accommodate the occasional sin. We can claim His promises exactly the way they are worded and recorded in the Bible and the SOP.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/07/04 07:54 PM
You didn't answer my question about not sinning. At least not in a way that I can understand. My request is that you answer, in your own words, why it is important that we not sin.
If you are correct, that all that we need to do in order to not sin is be connected to Jesus, then that's great! All we need to focus on is remaining connected to Him. To do that it suffices to not resist God's grace. So let's do that! Let's not resist the goodness of God. Let's learn of His goodness and share insights of His character with one another, since it is by beholding Him that we are transformed.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/09/04 07:39 AM
Mike.
What does it mean that we are saved by his grace through faith?
Does it mean that by his grace through faith we are made perfect and sinless or does it mean that by his grace he saved us through faith even we are not perfect and not sinless?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/10/04 05:15 AM
Tom, we should stop sinning because sin is the root of all human misery and unrest, and it caused the death of Jesus on the Cross. To stop sinning all we have to do is experience the miracle of rebirth and stay connected to Jesus.
James, both. We are born again without our former defective traits of character.
Posted By: Will
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/10/04 06:10 AM
Then I am definitely not born again. I will say some bad words when I get really angry at some things that are beyond comprehension, and that is not what a Christian does.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/10/04 07:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Tom, we should stop sinning because sin is the root of all human misery and unrest, and it caused the death of Jesus on the Cross. To stop sinning all we have to do is experience the miracle of rebirth and stay connected to Jesus.
James, both. We are born again without our former defective traits of character.
Mike, I think your answer is very, very good. It is true that it is sin that causes all the misery that man experiences. It causes misery even to those who do not perceive that's what it's doing.
Sin caused the death of Christ on the cross, and it is that death which exposes sin for the terrible thing that it is.
Some other reasons not to sin are that sin causes great pain to God. It also casts a blight on God's character. That is, by sinning we misrepresent God.
Finally sin causes our minds to be confused so that we view God in a wrong light. We see Him as harsh and severe, looking to punish us, rather than as the kind, gracious, Heavenly Father who He really is.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/10/04 05:08 PM
An interesting question was asked in our Adult Sabbath School Bible Study Guide under Tuesday, October 6th.
quote:
What needs to happen witin us, to the other "powers" within us, in order to truly follow the Lord as we should?
As I was teaching that particular class, I asked another most interesting and most revealing question: "How many of us are true followers of Jesus Christ?"
Nobody raised their hands, however, the discussion that followed revealed that nobody felt they were a true follower of Jesus Christ.
Why would practically everybody there give the impression that they are not true followers of Jesus Christ?
What needs to be done to turn that impression around?
I beleive this confusion of whether or not we are true followers of Christ could be at the root of this Conversion Controversy topic.
Could this also be the reason why our church is in such a Laodicean state?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/11/04 02:09 AM
If you ask the question, "Are you a true follower of Christ?" that question is likely to be interpreted as, "Are you like Christ in every aspect?" No one will answer that question yes. If you ask the question like this, "Do you really believe the teachings of Christ are true?" then you'd be likely to get a lot of yes answers.
======
Edited to remove my own last previously quoted post. Looks like I may need to remove the quoting feature once again. - Daryl
[ October 10, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/11/04 02:45 AM
Tom,
Wasn't it Christ Himself who said on more than one occasion for one or more people to follow Him?
Wasn't He asking each one of them to become true followers of Him?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/11/04 06:00 AM
I suppose it's the word "true" that causes the trouble. Christ called ordinary men to follow Him from normal occupations such as fishermen, accountants (so to speak) and so on. So He calls us. He calls everyone. Whosoever will may come. So in the sense that anyone who hears His voice and responds to His invitation, that person is a follower of Christ.
I suppose a "true" follower would be one who truly follows. This is where the problem of the word "true" comes in, as it carries the implication to many of being like Christ in every respect, and no undeluded person will say that.
How about if we ask this question, "Has Christ called us to follow Him?" That question we can answer yes. And here's a follow up, "If we answer that call, will He turn us away?"
I think it's good, very good, for us to learn to frame questions and issues so that they are not centered on us.
======
Quote of my previous post removed. The quote a post feature has also been suspended once again. - Daryl
[ October 11, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/12/04 06:16 AM
Let me ask another similar queston that was asked by one of our campmeeting speakers a few years ago:
How many of you have the assurance of salvation? Please raise your hands.In an auditorium of about 1,000 people, hardly anybody raised their hands.
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
Could this almost nil response also be the reason for this Conversion Controversy?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/12/04 12:06 AM
How about this question, "Do you believe that God wants you to be saved?" And follow up, "Do you believe God will save you if you don't persitently resist His efforts?"
The Spirit of Prophesy has a quote in reference to the fellow that wanted Christ to heal his son who said, in response to Christ's remarks, "If you can believe, anything is possible to him that believeth" "I believe. Lord, help Thou my unbelief" She said that if will pray this prayer, we will never perish, never. (She repeated the never).
That's not too much to ask, is it?
======
Removed quote of my previous post. - Daryl
[ October 11, 2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/15/04 05:15 AM
Tom, I appreciate your focus on Christ. But Jesus is not the weak link in our salvation. We are. That's why, I believe, it is important for us to ask, "What must I do to be saved"?
Daryl, I agree with you. The conversion controversy is related to our misunderstanding of conversion, rebirth and moral perfection.
Will, just because you curse when you flub up doesn't mean you were never converted or born again. It's just that sin separates us from Jesus, that's why we curse instead of resist.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/15/04 09:11 PM
quote:
Tom, I appreciate your focus on Christ. But Jesus is not the weak link in our salvation. We are. That's why, I believe, it is important for us to ask, "What must I do to be saved"?
That's easy. Don't resist.
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/15/04 09:47 PM
Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. Born again believers are new creatures in Christ, the old man is dead, the new man is alive, everything is brand new. As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/15/04 11:40 PM
quote:
As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
I think a statement like this is very likely to be misunderstood. An equivalent statement like "As newborn babes in Christ, we are in morally in harmony with God." or "As newborn babes in Christ, the law is written in our hearts."
These should be equivalent statements to what you wrote, and much less likely to be misunderstood I think.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/16/04 12:55 AM
So true. But I've also found that it is so vague that two people, using the same words, can intend opposite meanings. That's why it's necessary to be more specific.
Posted By: Restin
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/16/04 03:49 PM
Thanks so much, Daryl, for suspending the quotes. Long quotes make the forum a tiresome jumble to read, when reading on the computer screen is a bit of a strain at best.
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
I'm okay with a brief one sentence quote for focus, but long quotes infer that I'm too dumb to keep track of what is being discussed, not to mention having to scroll on ahead of them to search out the new reply. Thanks so much. It means I will spend more time here. And i think this applies to many other people as well.
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/16/04 05:15 PM
quote:
Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike.
I can testify to this being true. When I was not a Christian I admitt I cussed. And whenever I hit my finger, etc. the cuss words just came out instead of just ouch. I spent a whole week with some people who did not cuss and I had to really catch myself whenever something like this happened as I did not want to offend them, and I think by beholding I was being changed too. That of course did not last. When I came home of course I was back to my old habits.
Then I became a follower of Christ. I must admit the changes did not come overnight. But I will say for a fact that I do not think or say a cuss word when something like hitting my finger happens. At work they are always watching me to see if I will trip up. It is really kind of funny to see them all just stop and see what I will say. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/18/04 06:29 AM
quote:
As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
So true. But I've also found that it is so vague that two people, using the same words, can intend opposite meanings. That's why it's necessary to be more specific.
The problem is you're being less specific, not more. The statement "morally in harmony with God" is probably understandable by just about everyone. If you ask 5 people what "morally sinless" means, you're likely to get 5 different answers.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/18/04 07:55 AM
What is the difference between moral, mental and physical perfection?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/19/04 08:06 AM
Jesus was morally perfect, but He was not intellectually or physically perfect. Obviously, therefore, being morally perfect is all that counts between now and the return of Christ, at which time we will be made physically perfect too. But not intellectually perfect. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to learn more and more. Also, we will continue to mature morally throughout eternity.
Dont say we are sinless and dont say Jesus wasnt perfect. When you start splitting hairs things can get turned around backwards.
Evangelism, page 595, paragraph 2
"We shall meet with false doctrines of every kind, and unless we are acquainted with what Christ has said, and are following His instruction, we shall be led astray. One of the most dangerous of these doctrines is that of false sanctification. There are those who claim to be holy, and yet are breaking God's commandments. Their assertion that they are sinless is false and should not be received. . . .
Another doctrine that will be presented is that all that we have to do is to believe in Christ--to believe that He has forgiven our sins, and that after we are forgiven, it is impossible for us to sin. This is a snare of Satan. It is true that we must believe in Christ. He is our only hope of salvation. But it is also true that we must work out our individual salvation daily in faith, not boastingly but with fear and trembling. We are to use every power of our being in His service, and after we have done our utmost, we are still to regard ourselves as unprofitable servants. Divine power will unite with our efforts, and as we cling to God with the hand of faith, Christ will impart to us His wisdom and His righteousness. Thus, by His grace, we shall be enabled to build upon the sure foundation.-- Manuscript 27, 1886.
The Faith I Live By, page 219, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Walking as Christ Walked
We have before us the highest, holiest example. In thought, word, and deed Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matt. 16:24.
Selected Messages Book 3, page 354, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Sinlessness and Salvation
Only Those Far From Christ Claim Sinlessness. --Why is it that so many claim to be holy and sinless? It is because they are so far from Christ. I have never dared to claim any such a thing. From the time that I was 14 years old, if I knew what the will of God was, I was willing to do it. You never have heard me say I am sinless. Those that get sight of the loveliness and exalted character of Jesus Christ, who was holy and lifted up and His train fills the temple, will never say it. Yet we are to meet with those that will say such things more and more.--Manuscript 5, 1885.
Im sorry, I guess I need to be banned from all forums, I just have less and less patience anymore. Im just so disgusted with everything lately... sorry.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/21/04 06:43 AM
6BC 1118
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901). {6BC 1118.10}
This experience is available now, not after years and years of gradually becoming less and less sinful, gradually outgrowing our moral imperfections, slowly swapping our defective traits of character for more virtuous ones.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/23/04 08:23 PM
1 SM 330
When you turn away from the broken cisterns that can hold no water, and in the name of Jesus your Advocate come directly to God, asking for the things you need, the righteousness of Christ will be revealed as your righteousness, the virtue of Christ as your virtue. You will then understand that justification will come alone through faith in Christ; for in Jesus is revealed the perfection of the character of God; in His life is manifested the outworking of the principles of holiness. Through the atoning blood of Christ the sinner is set free from bondage and condemnation; through the perfection of the sinless Substitute and Surety, he may run in the race of humble obedience to all God's commandments. Without Christ he is under the condemnation of the law, always a sinner, but through faith in Christ he is made just before God.
18 MR 96
Justification is the reward of faith in the righteousness of Christ. His imputed righteousness brings everyone who accepts Him as a personal Saviour into conformity to the will of God. His righteousness goes before them. He leads the way, bidding us follow Him. He who follows Christ must live in obedience to the law of God. Sin and holiness cannot unite.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/24/04 07:45 AM
The ability to live without committing sin, with God's help, is certainly available now. It's always been available, since right after sin entered.
But it's a sure thing that those who
say they are sinless are light-years away from attaining that status. Those who actually do reach that status will not be running around saying so.
We know that the saints who are still alive after the close of probation will have reached the place where they're living without committing any sin. But witness their attitude at that time:
"...in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance."
{GC 620.1}
A deep sense of their unworthiness, even though they'll be living sinlessly at that time. That's a far cry from the practice of going about proclaiming their sinlessness.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/24/04 07:56 AM
John, do you know of anybody on MSDAOL who is claiming to be sinless? It may be tempting to accuse the apostle John, but he wasn't claiming to be sinless, he was merely explaining the truth about born again believers in general.
1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not...
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/24/04 05:40 PM
Also, feeling undone and unworthy isn't the same thing as doubting whether or not the promises of perfection apply to us while we are abiding in Christ. The truth is, we are morally complete, morally sinless, while abiding in Christ, from the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Not morally finished or morally mature. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to mature more and more in the fruits of the Spirit.
The Bibles speaks to both sides of the coin of worthiness. But being counted worthy of eternal life isn't based on creature merit, it's based on the fact we have cooperated with the plan of salvation, which has as its foundation, Christ and Him crucified.
Luke
20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1 Thessalonians
2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
2 Thessalonians
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Revelation
3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
We can know, here and now, that we are saved. In the face of God's abundant promises there is no reason for us to doubt our salvation status in Christ. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13. To doubt is to dishonor God.
But here's the tricky part. To know and believe we are saved implies we know the promises of God, the promises of perfection, apply to us now. We do not put them off in the future, as if they only refer to the 144,000 at the end of time, after probation closes. So long as we are connected to Christ, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we are morally sinless - just like the Bible says. Obviously, we don't go around claiming to be sinless, the Bible forbids it, but not because it isn't true.
Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2 Corinthians
2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[ October 24, 2004, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/27/04 07:06 PM
John, you haven't been real clear on this issue. You have objected to some of what I have posted, that's clear, but what is your position? What do you believe? Are we born again with or without our former defective traits of character? If so, then what is an example of an unknown sinful trait of character? Please support your conclusions with the Bible or the SOP. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/29/04 05:47 PM
The idea that we are born again morally imperfect, that is, with our former defective traits of character in tact and uncrucified, goes against what the Bible and the SOP teach. The onus is upon those who advocate this idea to back up their assertions with inspired quotes. So far no one has been able to do it. Instead, they have simply stopped posting, assuming that people who believe otherwise are unteachable. Unless there is evidence to support their ideas, the truth requires recognition and insists upon an apology.
6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/30/04 11:55 PM
Am I correct in saying that this isn't the present theological belief of the SDA Church?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/31/04 12:15 AM
If Sister White's theology is representative of the SDA Church then, Yes, it is the official position. However, there are members within the SDA Church, even here on MSDAOL, who do not agree with it. They believe we are born again morally defective, and that we gradually outgrow our imperfections after years of sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. This is a fatal lie, and may very well be the reason why mankind is still wandering in the wilderness of sin, instead of fellowshipping with angels and loved ones in heaven.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/31/04 05:15 AM
Who is someone who believes what you're saying? I think you're arguing against a straw man.
Ask if people believe that when they are born again, they are brought into harmony with God and His law. Ask if they believe God will make them more and more like Christ if they do not resist His grace.
I'd like to know how many believe that to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life, and that Christ restored the entire race of men to favor with God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/31/04 07:36 AM
Tom, you are fairly new to this forum, so you are unaware of the opposition to this view of rebirth and perfection. Most of the members on this forum believe the idea you outlined awhile ago, that is, that we gradually become less and less defective as we become more and more like Jesus. This view, however, is unbiblical and detrimental. We cannot hide behind vague ideas, and assume we're all saying the same thing - when in reality we are not.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 10/31/04 07:21 AM
Maybe they disagree with it because of the way it's framed.
What I outlined before (I assume you're talking about the example I gave about overcoming the use of profanity) was in harmony with experience, don't you think? Or do you think that a person who has been accustomed to profane language is born again, and never has to deal with the problem? Or overcomes it in the twinkling of an eye?
The Spirit of Prophesy talks about the difficulty of training the mind. She says given time the mind will become accustomed to thinking in the right way. She doesn't say that it happens in a split second.
I believe when a person is born again he is in harmony with God and God's law. If he doesn't resist God's grace, he will be made more and more like Christ. I think this is easy to understand and in perfect harmony with inspiration.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/01/04 07:25 AM
Gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character after we are born again versus gradually confessing and crucifying them before we are born again are two totally opposite ways of looking at rebirth. Most people seem to believe the first idea, which I believe is unbiblical.
I agree that it takes time to train our mind to spontaneously resist temptation, to obey by default, instantly, and in most instances to do the right thing without much of a struggle. But even Jesus grew and matured from childhood to manhood. He began perfect (sinless) and He became perfect (mature). We begin as newborn babes in Christ and, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we grow and mature, just like Jesus did. Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience. Here's Peter's definition of a newborn babe:
1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
According to this description, a newborn babe in Christ is someone who, if they have tasted the grace of God, has laid aside all sinful traits of character. They are morally sinless. It is at this point that they begin growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit by drinking milk. Our sinful nature will continue to harass us with sinful thoughts and feelings, which we must resist like any other temptation, but we also need to understand the source and origin of them. They are not the result of unconquered or unknown defects, but rather they originate with our sinful nature.
DA 668
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
Mike,
I dont know where you get these ideas of yours from but when I read the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy I see many instances and quotations about the fact that after we are converted we will continue to sin... because our faith is to become stronger and stronger, our belief in the power of God to become more and more reliant upon Christ and less and less reliant upon ourselves.
Steps to Christ, page 64, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance."
Mike,
I dont know where you get these ideas of yours from but when I read the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy I see many instances and quotations about the fact that after we are converted we will continue to sin... because our faith is to become stronger and stronger, our belief in the power of God to become more and more reliant upon Christ and less and less reliant upon ourselves.
Steps to Christ, page 64, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance."
..and to be really straightforward... I would bet that if you claimed you have no sin, you would be wrong, and it would be a strong indication that you have not been beholding the perfection of Christ because if you were, you would be very humbled and realize you are far from perfection.
Steps to Christ, page 28,
"In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts.
We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness.
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.
When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ."
I would hope that everyone would agree that we overcome sin by FAITH. Full perfect faith does not come in an instant... but rather as we behold Jesus and develop a true relationshp with Him it grows. And IF we overcome sin by faith and faith is a growing developing thing, then it would be wrong to say or to claim that we get converted one day and are perfect the same day.
Education, page 192, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Bible Teaching and Study
The great motive powers of the soul are faith, hope, and love; and it is to these that Bible study, rightly pursued, appeals. The outward beauty of the Bible, the beauty of imagery and expression, is but the setting, as it were, for its real treasure--the beauty of holiness. In its record of the men who walked with God, we may catch glimpses of His glory. In the One "altogether lovely" we behold Him, of whom all beauty of earth and heaven is but a dim reflection. "I, if I be lifted up," He said, "will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. As the student of the Bible beholds the Redeemer, there is awakened in the soul the mysterious power of faith, adoration, and love. Upon the vision of Christ the gaze is fixed, and the beholder grows into the likeness of that which he adores. The words of the apostle Paul become the language of the soul: "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: . . . that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings." Philippians 3:8-10.
Education, page 253, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Faith and Prayer
Faith that enables us to receive God's gifts is itself a gift, of which some measure is imparted to every human being. It grows as exercised in appropriating the word of God. In order to strengthen faith, we must often bring it in contact with the word.
The Faith I Live By, page 323, paragraph 6
Chapter Title: Facing the Final Test
Do you want to change this order of things without delay? Would you choose to serve God? Then Jesus invites you to believe. . . . Grasp the hand of infinite power. Faith grows by exercise. Feed upon the promises; be content to rely on the simple promise of God's Word. Wait no longer in unbelief; for you are in danger of losing your souls.
In Heavenly Places, page 20, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: A Change of Heart
Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . .
In Heavenly Places, page 127, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The Sure Anchor of Faith
Our faith increases by beholding Jesus, who is the center of all that is attractive and lovely. The more we contemplate the heavenly, the less we see desirable and attractive in the earthly. The more continually we fix the eye of faith on Christ, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered, the more our faith grows; our hope strengthens, our love becomes more intense and fervent, with the clearness of our spiritual insight, and our spiritual intelligence increases. More and more we realize the positive claim of God upon us to purify ourselves from the customs and practices of a world that knows not God, nor Jesus Christ whom He has sent.
Lift Him Up, page 376, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as Our Advocate and Infallible Judge
Through personal effort joined with the prayer of faith, the soul is trained. Day by day the character grows into the likeness of Christ; and finally, instead of being the sport of circumstances, instead of indulging selfishness and being carried away by light and trifling conversation, the man is master of his thoughts and words. It may cost a severe conflict to overcome habits which have been long indulged, but we may triumph through the grace of Christ. He invites us to learn of Him. He would have us practice self-control, and be perfect in character, working that which is well pleasing in His sight. "By their fruits ye shall know them" is His own standard of judging character.
Just one more ...
2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Great Controversy, page 470, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Modern Revivals
The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13, 14. And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:5-10.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/03/04 12:17 AM
Claudia, below is a quote from my last post. I believe you will see that I agree with you, that it is possible, and even probable, that born again believers may slip in and out of known sin.
quote:
Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience.
But nowhere in the Bible does it say we will certainly sin after we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. The only verse that comes close is 1 John 2:1, 2, but even this says "if" not when. There are plenty of places where it says if we abide in Jesus we will not commit a known sin. That's the beauty of salvation. But it is painfully conditional. In order to resist temptation, we must remain connected to Jesus. But I like walking with Jesus. And so do you, that's obvious to me.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/03/04 11:48 PM
Mike:
In regard to Tom Ewall's post below and your subsequent response:
What do you mean "connected to Christ"? You wrote earlier that before we can sin, we have to disconnect ourselves from Christ. What does that mean? What about a reactive sin, like thinking or saying a bad word when someone cuts you off in traffic? |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Your response, while a true statement, avoided answering the question. I don't think Tom refutes God's ability to empower us.
The question was specifically, how exactly does one go about "disconnecting from Christ" so that they can swear when cut off in traffic or when they hit their finger with the hammer? That is, explain the process required to disconnect oneself from Christ.
For example, take someone who has a bad habit of swearing when things like that happen. He has accepted Christ as his Saviour and is born again. He is hanging a picture on the wall and hits his finger with the hammer.
Are you saying that he first tells Christ to get lost so that he can swear, waits to make sure Christ has vacated, and then swears?
Tom, isn't this more or less what you were asking?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 12:47 AM
We're talking about unintentional sins, which are sins we commit spontaneously. The question is - Can the grace of God empower us to avoid sinning under such circumstances. The answer seems to be, Yes. If we have no problem with this particular insight then we should be able to understand why it is that we sometimes commit unintentional sins.
Spontaneous sins, from my experience, are committed unconsciously, that is, we don't reason it out from cause to effect before we blow it. It's something we do by default, which is related to the strength of that particular weakness. In order to overcome such recurring incidences we must pray without ceasing, because at any moment something might happen that preys on our weaknesses, our predisposition to sin.
Several years ago I began praying that God would grant, what I call, mind time, time to think about what I'm doing before I do it. He answered my prayer immediately. It's amazing, there's no other way to describe it. It's almost like everything goes into slow motion. Now, I have plenty of time to stay connected to Jesus and to imitate His example.
Which dosen't mean I always succeed in making the right choice. But I know victory is mine if and when I want it. If I fail now it's because I was too tired to care, or some other inexcusable reason. Not that I believe unintentional sinning is excusable, because it isn't. There is no excuse for any sin, no matter how tired or uncaring we might feel at the time. Salvation is a thorough work, and victory is available every time, all the time. Thank you, Jesus.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 12:53 AM
With all due respect, Mike, the following quote of yours contradicts your previous statements (emphasis added):
Will, just because you curse when you flub up doesn't mean you were never converted or born again. It's just that sin separates us from Jesus, that's why we curse instead of resist. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
You have said many many times, that it's impossible for one to sin while connected to Jesus. One must first disconnect himself from Christ before being able to commit sin.
But here you say that it is sin itself which separates us from Him, instead of separation being a prerequisite for sin.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 01:15 AM
We're talking about unintentional sins, which are sins we commit spontaneously. The question is - Can the grace of God empower us to avoid sinning under such circumstances. The answer seems to be, Yes. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
No, Mike, that was not the question. I thought the question was quite clear.
You have stated numerous times that before one can commit a known sin, one must first disconnect from Christ.
Since swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain is a known sin, how does such a person as described disconnect himself from Christ between the time the hammer hits his finger and the time he utters the curse?
Or is it instead as you have said just once that I know of before, "that sin separates us from Jesus"
Many of us are just trying to understand the message you are trying to convey. You seldom make it an easy thing to do.
The question is the one above in bold, light blue.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 01:38 AM
...at which time [Second Coming]we will be made physically perfect too. But not intellectually perfect. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to learn more and more. Also, we will continue to mature morally throughout eternity. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Do you truly think that in the New Earth, we will have intellectual flaws (imperfections)?
If continuing to mature morally throughout eternity does not mean we are morally imperfect, why would learning more and more throughout eternity mean that we are not intellectually perfect?
It would seem to me that just as a budding flower is not imperfect while it is growing into a mature flower, neither would our intellect be imperfect as we grow and mature intellectually.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 02:19 AM
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Why limit this to known sins? The verse itself certainly does not qualify the type of sin being talked about. Is it possible to commit any sin, whether known or unknown, while connected to Christ?
Just a few verses up 1 John 3:6, which reads:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. |
|  1 John 3:6 |
Would you say that anytime a person sins, it means that he does not know Him nor has seen Him? It certainly seems that this verse could be interpreted to mean that once we abide in Christ, then we would never ever sin again. For if we sin, we have not seen Him nor do we know Him. And how could we have abided in him if we never seen Him nor knew Him?
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 08:05 PM
Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
I agree with you, Mike, that it is not a must that we make a mistake after rebirth.
But I am curious, Mike. Do you think that the frequency of mistakes would be consistent throughout the growth towards natural, automatic obedience? Or do you think the frequency of mistakes would lessen as such a person reaches the point of natural, automatic obedience?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 09:08 PM
DenBorg, technically separation precedes sinning. At least, that’s what I believe. Thank you for pointing that out. However, in another sense separation is also the result of sinning. When we stop partaking of the divine nature, which is what empowers us to imitate the example of Jesus, we separate ourselves from God, from our only source of success. Once we disconnect ourselves from Jesus we are immediately incapable of being Christlike and, as such, we are in a sinful state, which is manifested in any number of ways – subtle sins or blatant ones. Regardless of whether or not we can detect our sin (self-righteousness is harder to discern as a sin) we are, nevertheless, in a state of sin when we’re not abiding in Jesus.
The difference between a seed and a blossom is not sin or imperfection, but rather the difference has to do with degrees of maturation. Perfection is inherent in the seed itself, and this perfection unfolds as the plant grows and matures. It is perfect at every stage of growth. The unrevealed portion of a developing plant does not symbolize sin or imperfection, instead it illustrates how Christ matured in the fruits of the Spirit as He grew from childhood to manhood. The same thing applies to newborn babes in Christ as they grow in grace and mature morally. The seed that God implants in them, which Paul refers to as the mind of the new man, comes complete with all the righteous character attributes of God and all of the fruits of Spirit. We are born again with each one of these traits and qualities, and as we grow and mature they shine brighter and brighter, more and more unto the perfect day.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Ephesians
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 09:25 PM
quote:
Since swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain is a known sin, how does such a person as described disconnect himself from Christ between the time the hammer hits his finger and the time he utters the curse?
Again, I suspect we sin unintentionally by default, it's what we do naturally and instinctively. By the way, I believe an unintentional sin is a known sin, otherwise we wouldn’t think of it as a sin. We commit unknown sins unwittingly, not intentionally or unintentionally. But committing a known sin by default is no excuse for sinning unintentionally. Do we agree on that point? If so, then the reason why we commit unintentional sins, why and when we disconnect from Jesus, is not as important as learning how to stay connected to Christ under those types of situations, that is, under circumstances where we tend to sin unintentionally. Why we sin is a mystery. It is only as we continue to partake of the divine nature that we are able to imitate the example of Jesus under all situations, including those tense times when we’re more likely to sin unintentionally. As I suggested before, I believe the solution to the problem is to practice the habit of praying without ceasing.
GC 492
Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 10:01 PM
In his First Epistle I believe John is saying that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ because he found it to be true through personal experience. He may very well be talking about all types of sin, known and unknown, but I doubt it, because he is addressing Christians in general, not just fully developed, well seasoned believers, full of wisdom and years of experience.
When he says, Whoever sins has neither seen or known Jesus, I believe he is talking about the contrast between those who are connected to Jesus and those who are not. But if and when a believer disconnects from Jesus all he can do is sin. When we take our eyes off Jesus we can’t see Him, and we sin, because without Jesus all we can do is sin. To know Jesus is to show Him in our everyday life and choices. We can’t do this when we’re disconnected from Him.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” 1 John 3:9, 10. Christians are manifested by their Christlike choices and behaviour, and non-Christians are manifested by their unChristlike choices and behaviour. The difference is whether or not we have been born again and continue to abide in Jesus.
quote:
But I am curious, Mike. Do you think that the frequency of mistakes would be consistent throughout the growth towards natural, automatic obedience? Or do you think the frequency of mistakes would lessen as such a person reaches the point of natural, automatic obedience?
First of all, I think it is important that we understand and believe that there is no excuse for committing known sins.
DA 311
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}
I do not believe making mistakes is necessary in order to become more and more like Jesus. Nor do I believe becoming less and less like Satan is the same thing as becoming more and more like Jesus. Satan is not the opposite of God. God has no opposite. And neither is sinning the opposite of righteousness by faith. There is no excuse for falling short of the glory of God. And just because we sometimes do commit known sins it does not mean we cannot successfully recognize and resist every known sin, every time we are tempted, from henceforth until Jesus returns.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/04/04 11:23 PM
Michael, tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You believe that if a person is "connected" to Jesus, he cannot sin. If he is not "connected" to Jesus, he cannot do anything but sin.
I assume being "connected" to Jesus is something we do, by prayer, mediation, Bible study, etc. Is that correct?
John wrote that whoever is born of God cannot sin, right? He didn't say anything about being "connected" to Jesus. So if a person commits a sin, that means they are not born again?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/05/04 05:32 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I believe the Bible says about sin and salvation. And John, more than anyone else, articulated Jesus' vine and branch illustration, that is, the idea of abiding in Him, staying connected to Him, so that we can experience the joy of Spirit powered obedience, the abundant life. I realize Jesus' metaphor is somewhat elusive, but salvation is a miracle from beginning to end, and who can understand miracles? They defy reason. That's why it's easier to experience than it is to explain. Notice how Sister White talks about it, and the Scriptures she uses.
DA 494, 495
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. Only he who sees his own sinfulness can discern the preciousness of the Saviour. {DA 494.4}
FE 125, 126
Those who humbly and prayerfully search the Scriptures, to know and to do God's will, will not be in doubt of their obligations to God. For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. This is the character that is elected of God unto salvation. The test of a genuine Christian is given in the word of God. Says Jesus, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. . . . If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." {FE 125.2}
Here are the conditions upon which every soul will be elected to eternal life. Your obedience to God's commandments will prove your right to an inheritance with the saints in light. God has elected a certain excellence of character; and every one who, through the grace of Christ, shall reach the standard of His requirement, will have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of glory. All who would reach this standard of character, will have to employ the means that God has provided to this end. If you would inherit the rest that remaineth for the children of God, you must become a co-laborer with God. You are elected to wear the yoke of Christ,--to bear His burden, to lift His cross. You are to be diligent "to make your calling and election sure." Search the Scriptures, and you will see that not a son or a daughter of Adam is elected to be saved in disobedience to God's law. The world makes void the law of God; but Christians are chosen to sanctification through obedience to the truth. They are elected to bear the cross, if they would wear the crown. {FE 125.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/05/04 05:50 AM
quote:
I assume being "connected" to Jesus is something we do, by prayer, mediation, Bible study, etc. Is that correct?
Yes, doing those things helps us stay connected to Jesus, but being connected is as real and tangible, from a spiritual perspective, as a branch connected to the vine. There is something magical and mysterious about being connected to Jesus, but results are real and wonderful.
CT 171
Oh, for a clear perception of what we might accomplish if we would learn of Jesus! The springs of heavenly peace and joy, unsealed in the soul of the teacher by the magic words of Inspiration, will become a mighty river of influence, to bless all who connect with him. {CT 171.2}
quote:
John wrote that whoever is born of God cannot sin, right? He didn't say anything about being "connected" to Jesus. So if a person commits a sin, that means they are not born again?
Not necessarily. Born again believers are the only people who are truly free to sin, everyone else is a slave to sin, all they can do is sin. We are not free to sin until we are free from sin. And that option is always available to us. It's just that we cannot commit a known sin while connected to Jesus. Since He is our source of strength and success, the One who is empowering us to imitate His example, who enables us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, it is inconceivable that He would lead us into temptation (into sin).
Therefore, we must first disconnect from Jesus, resurrect (as it were) our old man, and then all we can do is sin. Consequently, everything depends on Jesus, everything depends on us staying connected to Him, and if we continue abiding in Him the promises of perfection apply to us - for Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and salvation. To me, it is all so awesome and amazing. I love it. I love Jesus. I know you do too. Ain't it great!
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/05/04 06:28 PM
So your view is that we are something like a vacuum cleaner which needs to be plugged in in order to have power? Those who aren't plugged in can do nothing but sin whereas those who are plugged in cannot sin, unless they unplug themselves.
How do we stay plugged in?
Your assertion that a person who is not converted can do nothing but sin strikes me as Calvanistic. I'm not aware that as Seventh-day Adventists we have any such tradition. I'm curious as to where you got such an idea. Inspiration is full of examples of unconverted people in situations where choices were to be made, some of which would be sin and some of which not. According to your view, apparently, even if the choice was made not to sin, that would still be sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 07:24 AM
Yes, plugged in like a vacuum cleaner, because otherwise, without Jesus, life sucks. Sorry, couldn't resist that one. I normally use the electric trolley car illustration. My grandpa, a kind and loving soul, was a trolley car operator, back in the heyday, in good ole San Francisco. So long as we are connected to Jesus we have the power necessary to override the sinful thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful nature, and, which is even more rewarding, we have what it takes to imitate the lovely example of sweet Jesus. That's what I love most about Christianity and the truth as it is in Jesus.
How do we stay plugged in to Jesus? I like that quote you use so often. How does it go again? If we do not resist or frustrate the grace of God, then He will empower us to experience His promises. That's it in a nutshell. The four Christian disciplines are, of course, indispensable: Bible study, prayer, fellowship and outreach. Also, avoiding worldly places, people and things is needful too. Reading books like Steps to Christ and The Desire of Ages and Christ's Object Lessons and Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing is invaluable. But nothing, absolutely nothing, compares with hanging out with Jesus, as with a best friend. It takes a miracle.
Yeah, I know what you mean about saying even the good things we do, apart from being connected to Jesus, are sins. It's hard to imagine that a good atheist is actually sinning when he donates millions of dollars to help provide relief for the suffering people around the world. But the Bible says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. Even though the godly things we do are the result of the promptings of God, if we do them in our own strength, without the aid of Jesus, they do not count as righteousness by faith, and faith is the only that matters to God, and counts toward salvation. So, regardless of how well mannered and decent we might manage to be, without Jesus, it is fuel for the fire. In the final analysis, the fruit of faith is the only thing that will survive the scrutiny of judgment. Which is right.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 01:17 AM
Well Mike, I see things much differently than you do. BTW, I liked your pun!
One good thing about our conversation is it helps to figure out how better to express ideas. I know I see things much differently than you do, but don't know how to best express my thoughts.
I'll start out from the point where we are, I believe, in agreement. That is, that the most important thing is the victory of Christ in the Great Controversy.
The Great Controversy is about who is telling the truth, God or Satan. Satan has presented God as being untrustworthy, and not having our best interests at heart. Satan has presented God as basically selfish.
Because man bought into Satan's lies, he has been profoundly affected by these dark thoughts of God, even into the depths of the psyche. Because man has been so confused about the truth about God, God sent His Son to reveal the truth. In Christ, we see God as He really is.
God is not a respector of persons. Anyone who is not against Him is for Him. He considers all to be His friend (see, for example, how Christ addressed Jesus when He was betrayed). What causes people to be lost has nothing to do with God, but with the people themselves.
God is constantly revealing Himself in Christ to all. A person may respond to that revelation in various ways. At a given time a person may respond dramatically, and this we see as an instantaneous conversion. However, the conversion may had been going on for some time.
Let's consider Nicodemus as an example. When was Nicodemus converted? We don't really know, but perhaps it wasn't until after the cross. However, Nicodemus demonstrated he was cooperating with Christ's purposes in the counsel he was giving to the Pharisees. I don't see how Nicodemus' work there could be consitituted as "sin."
I believe anyone, whether believer or not, can choose to sin or not sin, or choose to do righteousness or not. It's true that whoever commits sin is a servant of sin, but God's grace is more powerful than sin and it is constantly being poured out upon all so that anyone can choose to resist. A person can choose to overcome sin before being converted.
Here's a concrete example. Consider an alcoholic. An alcholic can overcome the addiction of alcohol without being converted. That's an example of a sin being overcome. Certainly the sin is overcome by the grace of God, even if the former alcholic doesn't acknowledge it. You might argue that the former alcholic is being selfish in his choice, so in some sense is "sinning", but I think that's going beyond the straightforward teaching of Scripture to Calvanistic ideas.
For example, from Ezekiel
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezek. 18:20-24)
This presents the idea that the wicked can choose not to sin and the rightoues can choose to sin.
Here's another one:
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8)
This is an open invitation. Anyone can choose to do this.
I don't believe the idea that a person continually sins until he is converted agrees with inspiration. It sounds Augustinian to me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 02:51 AM
Yes, we agree that the outcome of the great controversy will ultimately disprove Satan's accusation regarding the character and kingdom of God. But it looks like we disagree on the status of good works and atheists. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and faith comes by hearing and heeding the word of God. In rare cases, like aborigines in dark, out of the way places, God reserves the right to save some of them because they lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience.
But I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to atheists, who willfully deny Christ and Him crucified, regardless of how philanthropic they may have been. Such good works I have come to perceive as beautiful sin, that is, it is truly wonderful how it helps others in need, but the fruit of this type of loving labor actually serves to undermine the gospel. How? Because it gives people the impression that Christianity isn't necessary in order to overcome our sinful, selfish propensities, that we can be Christlike without Christ, thus proving organized religion is unessential and superfluous - definitely not a good outcome.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 06:37 AM
quote:
But it looks like we disagree on the status of good works and atheists. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and faith comes by hearing and heeding the word of God. In rare cases, like aborigines in dark, out of the way places, God reserves the right to save some of them because they lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience.
I wasn't talking about atheists, was I? I certainly wasn't aware of that. I don't believe in atheists.
I agree that whatsoever is not of faith is sin, but God has given to every man a measure of faith. People exercise faith in different ways. I gave Nicodemus as an example.
God is graciously revealing Himself all the time. The Holy Spirit works with whatever man gives to him. If a person will cooperate with Him, He will help him overcome sin, even if he is not converted. I gave the example of the alcoholic as an example. It is only by the grace of God that the alcoholic can overcome his sin, yet he can do that without being converted.
I totally did not understand your comment about God in rare cases reserving the right to save some because they lived in harmony with their convictions and consciences. I've got no clue what this means.
First of all, God doesn't "reserve the right" to save some. He loves all, and is not willing that any should perish. He "reserves the right" to save all men, and He does, unless they interpose a perverse His will and frustrate His grace. This includes aborigines or hard-hearted Americans.
Secondly He doesn't save people because they live in harmony with their consciences. Paul lived in harmony with his conscience, yet he was persecuting Christ. People are not saved by good works, as you seem to be implying, but by faith. This applies as much to aborigines as Americans or anyone else.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 08:09 AM
On a side note, or maybe not, the two texts quoted below seem to indicate that Paul believed not all men have faith but only those who are among believers.
Romans
12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
2 Thessalonians
3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.
I'm not sure I can agree with you that the good works unconverted people accomplish, or the sinful habits they give up, as a result of the Spirit influencing them, is the result of saving faith or anything close to it. I am more inclined to think it is the result of will power and true grit.
SC 18
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}
SC 23
Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. {SC 23.3}
SC 27
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}
The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. {SC 27.2}
SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 08:12 AM
By the way, that thing about aborigines has to do with the idea that heaven will be populated by natives who, even before they heard the name of Jesus, responded to the wooing influence of God and lived a life in harmony with their conscience and convictions. Have you ever read those kinds of statements before in the SOP?
COL 385
Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}
SD 364, 365
In the day of final reckoning, Christ does not present before men the great work He has done for them in giving His life for their redemption. He presents before them the faithful work they have done for Him. What surpassing love is this! He even mentions the work of the heathen, who have no intelligent knowledge of the law of the Lord, but who have done the very things the law required, because they have heeded the voice speaking to them in the things of nature. When the Holy Spirit implants Christ's Spirit in the heart of the savage, and he befriends God's servants, the quickening of the heart's sympathy is contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The grace of God, working upon the darkened mind, has softened the savage nature untaught by the wisdom of men. . . . {SD 364.3}
Christ implants His grace in the heart of the savage, and he ministers to the necessity of the missionary, even before he has heard or comprehended the words of truth and life. Behold that crowd collected about God's servant to harm him! But the Lord is working upon the heart and mind of perhaps one man to plead in behalf of His servant; and when the war council has determined the destruction of the Christian's life, the intercession of that savage turns the decision, and his life is spared. O, the love that goes forth to the savage for this one act! To such Christ says, in the Judgment: "I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." {SD 364.4}
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 08:53 AM
quote:
I'm not sure I can agree with you that the good works unconverted people accomplish, or the sinful habits they give up, as a result of the Spirit influencing them, is the result of saving faith or anything close to it. I am more inclined to think it is the result of will power and true grit.
You believe sin can be overcome by "will power and true grut"? Then what do we need Christ for?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 08:57 AM
quote:
By the way, that thing about aborigines has to do with the idea that heaven will be populated by natives who, even before they heard the name of Jesus, responded to the wooing influence of God and lived a life in harmony with their conscience and convictions. Have you ever read those kinds of statements before in the SOP?
I'm familiar with this one:
quote:
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)
This makes the point I was trying to make. The Holy Spirit works on the hearts of all men. If they do not resist His influence, God will save them.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 09:03 AM
Regarding faith being given to every man, this is from an article of E. J. Waggoner on Romans 12:
quote:
Every man is exhorted to think soberly, because God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Many people have a notion that they are so constituted that it is impossible for them to believe. That is a grave error. Faith is just as easy, and just as natural, as breathing. It is the common inheritance of all men, and the one thing wherein all are equal. It is as natural for the child of the infidel to believe as it is for the child of the saint. It is only when men build up a barrier of pride about themselves (Ps. 73:6) that they find it difficult to believe. And even then they will believe; for when men disbelieve God, they believe Satan; when they disbelieve the truth, they greedily swallow the most egregious falsehoods.
In What Measure? We have seen that faith is given to every man. This may be known also by the fact that salvation is offered to every man, and placed within his grasp, and salvation is only by faith. If God had not given faith to every man, he could not have brought salvation within the reach of all.
The question is, In what measure has God given every man faith? This is really answered in the fact already learned, that the faith which he gives is the faith of Jesus. The faith of Jesus is given in the gift of Jesus himself, and Christ is given in his fullness to every man. He tasted death for every man. Heb. 2:9. "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." Eph. 4:7. Christ is not divided; therefore to every man is given all of Christ and all of his faith. There is but one measure.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/06/04 08:44 PM
Tom, good stuff. Thanx for sharing it. I like the way Waggoner put it. Everyone is born with just enough "faith" to accept the faith of Jesus, the saving faith necessary to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4.)
Now, more about will power and true grit. Those quotes I shared from Steps to Christ make it clear to me that changing our behaviour is not the same thing as changing our heart. Sin goes much deeper than behaviour, as you and I both well know. Ungodly behaviour is merely a symptom of sin. Motive is the foundation of sin, and motive is something we cannot change, at least not without the divine touch of God.
We must be born again. Why? Well, our first birth left us deficient, without the ability to imitate the example of Jesus. We have the hardware, just not the software to run it. When we’re born again, God installs the software that makes it possible for us to go online, to partake of the divine nature, to stay connected to Christ, so that He can download the gift of His righteousness. Once online, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Why? Because we are connected to Christ, because our motives are pure and holy, because His love and holiness flow through us. We live His life.
Yes, an unconverted person can work real hard, and exercise superhuman strength and will power, if sufficiently motivated, to alter his outward behaviour, to clean things up nice and pretty on the outside. But even his best efforts, his grandest accomplishments, come short of the glory of God. Why? His motives are not pure or perfect. Everything we do, without Jesus, is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness. We can’t help it.
Our hearts are sinful and full of deceit. All of our righteousnesses, without Jesus, are nothing but filthy rags. Please notice that Isaiah is talking about our best behaviour, not when we’re at our worst, when he says all of our righteousnesses are nothing but filthy rags. Without Jesus, we’re nothing but sinners, full of lies, malice, deceit, hypocrisy, and “the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” Rev 18:2.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/09/04 04:55 AM
Tom, did we arrive at some sort of consensus?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/09/04 10:01 PM
I've noticed you're using the language, "As long as I don't resist God's grace" so I take that as a positive sign. I think we agree on the following points:
1) Overcoming sin is imporant and possible. The most important reason is because sin misrepresents God in the Great Controversy.
2) We overcome sin by beholding Christ, which transforms us into His image.
3) If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, God will make us like Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 07:38 AM
Sounds great. But are we really on the same page? I think it would be helpful if we were to explore two points in particular. What do we mean when we use the words "overcome sin" and "become like Jesus"? I suspect we are using these expressions to mean nearly opposite ideas. I will define what I mean, and then what I think you mean. Please correct me if I get your view wrong. Thank you.
I believe overcoming sin means resisting the temptation to sin. Jesus said we will sit with Him on His throne if we overcome even as He also overcame. See Rev 3:21. Obviously, therefore, overcoming cannot imply sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. It must necessarily mean resisting the temptation to sin.
I suspect, from what you've posted before, you believe overcoming sin means gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character by a process of sinning less and less often, less and less intensely, until we no longer give in, until it is no longer even a temptation. Again, please correct me if I have misunderstood you.
Now, on to the other expression. Becoming like Jesus, to me, means maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory. See John 1:16 and Rom 1:17 and 2 Cor 3:18. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting, or becoming less and less like Satan. Sanctification is an advance from one stage of perfection to another stage of perfection, and not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection. First, under the influence of God, we must confess and crucify our old man habits of sin, and then we experience the miracle of rebirth. Next, in Christ, we begin the lifelong process of obedience, of perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is what it means to become more like Jesus, who Himself began perfect and then became perfect.
I believe, on the other hand, that your definition and usage of the expression “become like Jesus” implies gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character until we cease sinning altogether, that we slowly, steadily become less and less sinful, less and less like Satan. Again, please correct me if I have misunderstood you. Thank you.
I hasten to add that if we should take our eyes off Jesus and slip into sin it does not mean we were never truly born again. That's not the case at all. Jesus offers us the gift of repentance, which, when received into our heart, empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and then Jesus restores the relationship our sin severed. Then we resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, which means we are living in harmony with the will and law of God, that is, we are not resisting His will or frustrating His grace.
quote:
Revelation
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/10/04 11:00 PM
If one considers sin to encompass both known and unknown sin, and defects of character to include unknown defects, then I agree with your characterization of my position that we sin less and less and our defects of character are minimized, although that's certainly not how I would state my position. I think that would technically be true, however.
If you define sin as only encompassing known sin, and defects of character as only encompassing known defects of character, I think I would not agree with your characterization of my position.
By being like Jesus, I mean being like Him in character. As Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father" we could say (if we're really like Him -- not that we would say this, however) "If you've seen me, you've seen Jesus."
The root of sin is unbelief. Much of our unbelief (most of it) is unconscious. Victory over sin includes victory over unbelief. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the most important science is the science of cultivating faith. I think complete victory over sin, as the 144,000 will experience, is dependent on a revelation of truth, which comes by the Gospel. This Gospel began in the 1888 message, as it was "the beginning of the latter rain." Without that message, and whatever light follows it, or builds upon it, the 144,000 cannot be successful. Thus victory over sin is not a purely individual matter, but is a corporate matter as well.
I hope this helps explain my position. I will be glad to explain more if desired.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 01:09 AM
If I remember right, you classify doctrinal error as an unknown defective trait of character. Assuming this is true, what are we, as the remnant, lacking? What truth or insight is God withholding that will make it possible for only the 144,000 to attain unto the completion of Christian character?
The following quotes seem to suggest that the completeness of Christian character has been, and still is, available to every repenting child of God, and that it is the only qualification for admittance to heaven, whether we are resurrected or translated.
AA 551
The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. {AA 551.1}
AA 531
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
FLB 44
God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. . . . The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {FLB 44.3}
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {FLB 44.4}
The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. . . . He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. {FLB 44.5}
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . {FLB 44.6}
1MCP 339
Some of these persons will never attain to perfection of Christian character because they do not see the value and necessity of such a character. Their minds cannot be elevated so that they will be charmed with holiness. Self-love and selfish interests have so warped the character that they cannot be made to distinguish the sacred and eternal from the common.--2T 519, 520 (1870). {1MCP 339.3}
3SM 148
We can never see our Lord in peace, unless our souls are spotless. We must bear the perfect image of Christ. Every thought must be brought into subjection to the will of Christ. As expressed by the great apostle, we must come "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." We shall never attain to this condition without earnest effort. We must strive daily against outward evil and inward sin, if we would reach the perfection of Christian character.--The Review and Herald, May 30, 1882. {3SM 148.3}
2T 588
We are seeking for purity and holiness of life, that we may at last be fitted for the heavenly society in the kingdom of glory; and the only means to attain this elevation of Christian character is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way for the exaltation of the human family. {2T 588.1}
4T 54, 55
You need a deep and thorough work accomplished for you. Your entire family needs it, and may God help you all to attain perfection of Christian character. {4T 54.3}
4T 400
The word of God sets a high mark before you. Will you, through fasting and prayerful effort, attain to the completeness and consistency of Christian character? {4T 400.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 01:19 AM
John, Will, Avalee, Restin, Debbie, Daryl, Charlene, Daniel, and anyone else who is silently following this thread - What do you guys think? How do you interpret the quotes that have been shared in the last few posts?
Posted By: Will
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 02:02 AM
Hi Mike,
I wll respond this evening, as I will read what you have posted, and give you an opinion, and study this in depth.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 05:28 AM
quote:
If I remember right, you classify doctrinal error as an unknown defective trait of character. Assuming this is true, what are we, as the remnant, lacking? What truth or insight is God withholding that will make it possible for only the 144,000 to attain unto the completion of Christian character?
I wouldn't say that God withholds truth. What makes you say that? That makes it sound like there's fault with God. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that God will give us truth as quickly as we are ready and willing to receive it.
Regarding doctrinal error, what I said was that if we hold doctrinal errors, that can lead us to misrepresent God. For example, if we believe that God tortures people for all eternity, then we misrepresent His character. The Spirit of Prophesy characterizes this teaching as "dreadful blasphemy." It seems possible, to me, to characterize "dreadful blasphemy" as sin.
The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a message of God's character. To tell the truth about God will be the work of the 144,000, I believe. We sin, perhaps unintentionally, but sin nonetheless, when we do not represent God aright.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 08:45 AM
quote:
The root of sin is unbelief. Much of our unbelief (most of it) is unconscious. Victory over sin includes victory over unbelief. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the most important science is the science of cultivating faith. I think complete victory over sin, as the 144,000 will experience, is dependent on a revelation of truth, which comes by the Gospel.
I assumed unconscious unbelief and sins of ignorance and doctrinal error and unknown defective traits of character were are related and pretty the same thing, that is, from what I've gathered from the various ideas you have posted here and there. But now I see, or I think I do, that you do not believe doctrinal error accounts for certain known or unknown defective traits of character.
Whew! That was a mouth full, eh? Okay, then what is the gospel truth, which hasn't been revealed or discovered yet, that, when implemented, will enable the 144,000 to attain unto perfection of Christian character, but the absence of which is preventing us from having that same experience right now?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/11/04 12:31 PM
quote:
Okay, then what is the gospel truth, which hasn't been revealed or discovered yet, that, when implemented, will enable the 144,000 to attain unto perfection of Christian character, but the absence of which is preventing us from having that same experience right now?
Ehm, this is an very interesting question. Who could tell you the truth which God has not yet revealed? Could anyone but a prophet share with us what has not yet been discovered? If the "thing" which you are refering to was something that the apostles had, then all that we need to know about the subject is written in the bible. In such case prayerfull biblestudy is what is needed.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/12/04 07:38 AM
I think that's the point, Thomas. The truth necessary that enables God to empower us to attain to perfection of Christian character is available now, and has been since the First Fall. Attaining to character perfection does not mean we have no more room to grow. On the contrary, real Christian growth doesn't begin until we're born again, until we're dead to sin, free from sin. "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2. How? By taking our eyes off Jesus. That's how.
FLB 117
When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. {FLB 117.2}
We are converted and born again with all the righteous character attributes of God and with all of the fruits of the Spirit. Not one thing is lacking or missing when God implants within us the sinless seed or mind of the new man.
COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
The righteous character traits of God and the fruits of the Spirit are not qualities we gradually accumulate by swapping sin and righteousness over the course of a lifetime. Rather, we are born again with them, with all of them, and then begins the lifelong process, which includes eternal life in heaven and the new earth, of growing in grace and knowledge and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It's what Paul calls, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Cor 7:1.
But again, just because we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness, it does not mean we are incapable of disconnecting from Jesus, resurrecting the mind of the old man, and reverting back to our former sinfulness. We are always free to sin. The difference is, now that we have experienced the miracle of rebirth, is that we must first take our eyes off Jesus, stop abiding in Him, before we can commit a known sin. If we do sin, God does not reject us. No way, never, never. He offers us the gift of repentance, which restores the relationship our sin severed.
The problem today isn't knowing what is truth, rather the problem today is consistently experiencing the truth, the truth as it is in Jesus - righteousness by faith. Most of us are trying to reconcile, in light of the truth, a life of sinning and repenting for the same stupid things over and over again. But we make a mistake, I believe, when we reinterpret the truth and force it to accommodate our frequent failures.
Intead of expending all of our energy trying to make the truth fit our pitiful condition, we should be pleading with God for the power to be more than conquerors in Christ Jesus, who loves us with an everlasting love, full of power and compassion. "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." Eph 3:20.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/12/04 05:05 AM
quote:
The truth necessary that enables God to empower us to attain to perfection of Christian character is available now, and has been since the First Fall.
If this were true, then we wouldn't need the Bible at all, right?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/12/04 05:57 AM
Tom, if the truth needful for God to empower the antediluvians to attain to perfection of character wasn't available to them, then how was it possible for them to overcome sin? The only reason Moses began to write the Bible, 2500 years after the First Sin, was to preserve oral truth and tradition. But for 2500 years believers were able to perfect holiness without a written record. The NT is a record of the life and times and teachings of Jesus and His disciples, but otherwise it is an inspired commentary on OT theology and how it applies to the apostolic church. If so, then how do you explain the many SOP quotes I posted toward the bottom of page 5 that clearly say character perfection is available now, and that it is the basis of our reward in judgment?
But what about today, right now? Do we posssess the knowledge and truth required to attain to the completeness of Christian character? Or, will God reveal certain aspects of truth later on, during the time of the 144,000, that will enable the final, translation generation of saints to accomplish what we cannot, namely, attain to perfection of character?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/12/04 08:54 AM
The 144,000 will attain to a higher state than others have attained to in other epochs. They will stand before a holy God without a mediator. I do not believe that this was possible for Christ began His work in the Most Holy Place in 1844. In fact, I believe that's why Christ began that work. That's what He's doing now; He's preparing a people to be ready for His coming. If what you were saying were true, Christ could have come before 1844. That's not in harmony with inspiration.
What is necessary for the 144,000 is for them to perfectly reproduce Christ's character. That's COL 69. Whatever truth is necessary for them to do that is the truth that remains for God to give to that end. Given that EGW described the message of Jones and Waggoner as the "beginning of the latter rain" and identified it with the shaking message, the counsel of the true witness, that other angel (Rev. 18) and so on, my guess would be that the truth remaining for the 144,000 to learn would be the truth of the Gospel; truth, in particular, that relates to God's character, since that's the last message to be given to the world. Other than that, it's pointless to ask me what that truth would be. How would I know? The only way I could know that truth would be if God already gave it out, and in that case it wouldn't be yet future, would it? So you're asking me a question which is impossible to answer.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/13/04 07:47 AM
Tom, as I see it, the only thing different about the 144,000 and other believers, is they will be alive when their record and memory of specific sins are blotted out in judgment. Attaining to the completeness of Christian character is an experience that has always been available. Otherwise, we implicate God if we insist new light is what accounts for the difference between those who make up the 144,000 and those who do not. I believe all the light required to attain to perfection of character has always been available.
The SOP quotes posted earlier on this thread make it clear that attaining to perfection of character is not only possible in each of our lifetimes, dating back to Adam and Eve, but it is essential to our salvation. Among those who are resurrected when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory, Sister White says, “In all the redeemed host not one [character] defect will be seen.” (FLB 44) And not because they were eliminated in the grave. “The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)
Whether or not we are worthy or qualified to enter the kingdom of God is not dependent upon Jesus completing His work in the MHP. Judgment merely confirms it. Already in heaven there are 24 elders, three of whom we know their names, the other 21 saints may have been resurrected with Jesus. Winning and ending the great controversy is a whole other matter, a matter altogether related to the corporate issue you’ve mentioned. But the issue of attaining to character perfection is something all of us must strive for individually – “without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)
Also, not all of the 144,000 are spiritual giants, who have attained a higher and holier state than the rest of us, who are more mature than us. Some of them barely survive by the skin on their teeth. “Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.” (GC 622)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/12/04 10:25 PM
In what way do they "barely survive by the skin on their teeth"?
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/13/04 06:59 AM
The phrase "perfection of character" can be taken to mean different things. One way of looking at it is in the sense of not commiting known sins. In this sense I agree with you that perfection of character has always been available to all believers from Adam and Even until now.
However, the work of the 144,000 is to perfectly reproduce Christ's character. That is dependent on the message which makes that possible, the "loud cry of the third angel's message", "the latter rain", "the counsel of the True Witness" whatever you want to call it.
The reproduction of Christ's character is dependent on the message which makes that possible. That's what Seventh-day Adventism is all about.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/13/04 07:46 AM
Tom, I agree there are different levels of perfection. Jesus clearly demonstrated this truth as He grew in grace, as He perfected His character from childhood to manhood. The same is true of born again believers. Which one of the following quotes do you think supports the idea that only the 144,000 can attain to the completeness of Christian character, to perfection of character?
AA 551
The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. {AA 551.1}
AA 531
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
FLB 44
God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. . . . The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {FLB 44.3}
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {FLB 44.4}
The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. . . . He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. {FLB 44.5}
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . {FLB 44.6}
1MCP 339
Some of these persons will never attain to perfection of Christian character because they do not see the value and necessity of such a character. Their minds cannot be elevated so that they will be charmed with holiness. Self-love and selfish interests have so warped the character that they cannot be made to distinguish the sacred and eternal from the common.--2T 519, 520 (1870). {1MCP 339.3}
3SM 148
We can never see our Lord in peace, unless our souls are spotless. We must bear the perfect image of Christ. Every thought must be brought into subjection to the will of Christ. As expressed by the great apostle, we must come "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." We shall never attain to this condition without earnest effort. We must strive daily against outward evil and inward sin, if we would reach the perfection of Christian character.--The Review and Herald, May 30, 1882. {3SM 148.3}
2T 588
We are seeking for purity and holiness of life, that we may at last be fitted for the heavenly society in the kingdom of glory; and the only means to attain this elevation of Christian character is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way for the exaltation of the human family. {2T 588.1}
4T 54, 55
You need a deep and thorough work accomplished for you. Your entire family needs it, and may God help you all to attain perfection of Christian character. {4T 54.3}
4T 400
The word of God sets a high mark before you. Will you, through fasting and prayerful effort, attain to the completeness and consistency of Christian character? {4T 400.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/13/04 07:51 AM
Daryl, the following quote was posted immediately prior to the question you posted, what do you think it means, if it doesn't imply some will barely survive by the skin of their teeth? Does this passage give you the impression they are spiritual giants, whose walk in the Lord makes Sister White's, or some other mature believer, look adolescent?
GC 622
Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. (GC 622)
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/14/04 07:42 AM
Mike, was that a trick question? I didn't see a single quote that related to the 144,000. Could you give me another list please?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/14/04 10:10 PM
Come on, Tom, that's the whole point. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say only the 144,000 will attain to the completeness of Christian character. It seems to me you are saying the opposite. Did I misunderstand you? That list of quotes make it obvious that everyone in heaven will have attained to character perfection - including the thief on the cross.
Yes, that's right, even people like the thief on the cross must crucify all of their defective traits of character in order to be admitted in heaven. That's what it means to be born again - dead to sin and awake to righteousness. The thief on the cross experienced the miracle of rebirth before he died on the cross, thus the biblical description of a born again believer applies to him, and others like him.
We are born again complete in Christ, and then we spend the rest of our life "perfecting holiness." 2 Cor 7:1. It says "perfecting holines", not accumulating holines, or swapping sin for righteousness. Whether we die the day we're born again or many years later, the fact remains - we are born again complete in Christ, and as such we are worthy to receive eternal life. Jesus will not have to change the character of the thief when He returns and resurrects him. It was changed before he died.
John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Ephesians
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
"For he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." 1 Peter 4:1, 2. If we take our eyes off Jesus and fall into sin, the gift of repentance restores the relationship our sin severed. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/14/04 10:59 PM
What do you see as the significance of the 144,000? Do you see any significance in Christ's work in the Most Holy Place?
What do you make of the statement in Christ's Object Lessons which says when Christ's character is perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come and claim them as his own? If every Christian perfectly reproduces Christ's character, then this has been happening since forever. Yet Christ hasn't come. Odd.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/14/04 11:46 PM
The only thing significantly different about the 144,000 (so far as attaining to perfection of Christian character is concerned) is that they will be alive when 1) their names come up during the investigative judgment, 2) their record and memory of specific sins is blotted out, 3) during the MOB crisis, 4) probation closes, 5) the plagues are poured out, 6) during Jacob's time of trouble, and 7) Jesus returns. They will also be the only ones allowed in the temple in heaven.
Those differences are significant indeed. But every truly born again believer is born again complete in Christ. We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Our old man habits of sin, our defective traits of character, are confessed and crucified during the process of conversion. But just because we born again complete in Christ it does not mean that every church member has been truly born again.
6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}
9T 187, 188
We have a character to maintain, but it is the character of Christ. Having the character of Christ, we can carry on the work of God together. The Christ in us will meet the Christ in our brethren, and the Holy Spirit will give that union of heart and action which testifies to the world that we are children of God. May the Lord help us to die to self and be born again, that Christ may live in us, a living, active principle, a power that will keep us holy. {9T 187.4}
That quote in COL 69 is referring to a shaken and purified church.
9T 15, 16
Soon the battle will be waged fiercely between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. Soon everything that can be shaken will be shaken, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain. {9T 15.5}
LDE 174, 179
In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us.--Ev 360 (1890). {LDE 174.1}
When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.--2SM 368 (1891). {LDE 174.2}
The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886). {LDE 179.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/15/04 12:28 AM
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that Christ will come when His character is perfectly reproduced in His people. His people are those who believe in Him. According to you, this has always been the case (i.e., His people always perfectly reproduce His character). Yet the fact that Christ hasn't come indicates that His character has *not* been perfectly reproduced in His people.
The 144,000 will stand before a holy God without a mediator. Noone else has done that. That's a significant difference.
Do you see any siginificance in Christ's ministry in the Most Holy Place? What is He doing? How long does it take for God to investigate the books in heaven? Less than a second, right? So why hasn't Christ come?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/15/04 01:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
The only thing significantly different about the 144,000 (so far as attaining to perfection of Christian character is concerned) is that they will be alive when 1) their names come up during the investigative judgment, 2) their record and memory of specific sins is blotted out, 3) during the MOB crisis, 4) probation closes, 5) the plagues are poured out, 6) during Jacob's time of trouble, and 7) Jesus returns. They will also be the only ones allowed in the temple in heaven.
Mike
You read all of that from the few verses describeing this group in the bible? And how does that last sentence go together with rev 21:22 which says that the new Jerusalem will have no temple for God himself is the temple of the city?
Tom
Where does it say that the 144000 will be special in standing before God without a meditator? In rev 14 they are standing WITH the lamb singing a new song before the heavenly court.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/15/04 01:54 AM
Tom, the church has never been perfect. Not until the shaking will it be perfect. I've addressed your questions regarding the 144,000 and the MHP on the new thread you started.
Thomas, the things I listed regarding the 144,00 are implied in the Bible and spelled out in detail in the SOP. You are right, the temple is not located inside the City, it's situated outside on the mount.
Revelation
7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
EW 17-19
Then we looked up and saw the great city.... Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city.... We passed through the woods, for we were on our way to Mount Zion.... Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies.... And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {EW 18.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/16/04 07:28 AM
I will be away from the computer until the 27th of November. God bless as you continue to study to show thyself approved unto God.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/19/04 05:00 PM
*****************************************
The 144,000 will attain to a higher state than others have attained to in other epochs.
******************************************
Tom, this is my first post here, and sadly it will be a dissagreement with this statement.
The difference between the last generation and other generations is NOT a difference in QUALITY but a difference in QUNATITY!
People have always fallen into four cagagories:
1. Those settled into the truth to serve Jesus come what may; such as Joseph, Daniel, Paul, John Wesley, maybe we can even consider Mother Tressia and Anwar Saddat in this group. But there have only been a few of these saints in each generation.
2. People who have responded to the Holy Spirit and accepted God on some level, but not in the same expirence and firmness as those in the above list.
3. People who have not yet accepted the drawing power of God's love, but that the Holy Spirit is still working on and who may convert.
4. Those who have developed characters of living for self and rejecting God's love so that they refuse to repent no matter what.
Through most of history it has been a bell curve of a few in groups 1 and 4 and most of us in groups 2 and 3.
The last generation will either be in group 1 or group 4, no one will be left in group 2 or 3.
As to living without a mediator... We need to be careful not to have the Catholic Church's defination of mediation replace the Biblical view.
The Catholics had people going to the priest to pray to the saints to pray to Mary to pray to Jesus to pray to the father for forgivness.
This was the world the reformers grew up in and they simply took this model for granted but removed the middle men and had us just go to Jesus to pray to the father for forgiveness.
Biblical mediation, such as found in Exodus 19:5-6, as well as other places in the Bible, Has Christ claiming victory before the Father, and the Godhead is through God's people trying to reach out to those who are not God's people to try to win them, or seal those he has won. In otherwords, mediation is focused on God to people in groups 2 and 3.
The last generation stands without a mediator because they have either been settled into the truth, or completely rejected the truth.
Yes, I completely agree that the Investigative Judgment is the key. Since the mid 1800s there has been an explosion of Biblical knowlege such as never before in history. Archaeology, linguististic studies, rediscoveries of the historical and cultural contexts of scripture. We have Bibles written on the third grade reading level, the Bible on tape and CD, and some books on VCR and DVD, bringing the word of God to life
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/19/04 08:35 PM
quote:
Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth." (GC 425)
This is the quote from the Great Controversy. The intersesstion of Christ has to do with actual sins being committed, does it not?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/19/04 08:49 PM
Exactly!
We just have to be careful about the context we read the quote in. Too many read it in the modified Catholic view based on the modified Catholic view of hell (although we may find different details as to how this happens, they all follow the basic formula of: you face God and your life's record and either are allowed into heaven or sent to a litterally burning hell)
We need to be careful to read it with the Biblical teaching of intercession and views of hell, and definations of sin, sinful nature, and character perfection in mind. It has been noted that although Mrs. White does not mention him by name, her discriptions of the perfection we are to reach are from the writings and discriptions of John Wesley. When you study out instead of clinging to choice words, you come to see that the Bible and Mrs. White teach not a different quality of the last generation, but the quanity of those who are in the deeper exprience.
I ran out of time on the computer on the last post, but I wanted to mention that with the things we can now learn about the Bible, this deeper knowlege of the Bible can lead to deeper knowlege of the God of the Bible, and as we behold him we become changed.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/19/04 09:57 PM
quote:
We need to be careful to read it with the Biblical teaching of intercession and views of hell, and definations of sin, sinful nature, and character perfection in mind.
Could you clarify this please?
quote:
When you study out instead of clinging to choice words, you come to see that the Bible and Mrs. White teach not a different quality of the last generation, but the quanity of those who are in the deeper exprience.
I think there's an 86% chance that I agree with this, although I'm not 100% sure what you're saying.
I'll mention that I think the experience of the 144,000 is a corporate experience, not simply individual. For example, EGW says when Christ's character is perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come and claim them as His own. I think this is speaking of the 144,000 as "His people"; they collectly form the Body of Christ which have "grown up" to the full statue of Christ and do His bidding (which is to proclaim the truth about God in their words and actions).
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/19/04 10:03 PM
I spoke of "The 144,000 will attain to a higher state than others have attained to in other epochs." You wrote of "the quanity of those who are in the deeper exprience."
I assume the "deeper experience" has to do with understanding/appreciating/making known God's character. Isn't this "deeper experience" "deeper" for the 144,000 than it was for those who have experienced it in earlier generations due to the fact that their is more light available regarding God's character than there used to be?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/27/04 04:44 AM
Living up to the light God has revealed is what constitutes the state of the saved - whether resurrected or translated. Anyone, since the beginning of time, who has lived up to the light God revealed possesses what it takes to be one of the 144,000. The fact they have already fallen asleep doesn't make them less holy or righteous or deserving than the 144,000.
I believe this touches on the main point of the conversion controversy. The moment we are converted and born again, I believe we are just as qualified as the 144,000 to enter through the gates of heaven. The difference between the thief on the cross and the 144,000 is time and circumstances - not fitness.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/27/04 10:06 AM
I agree with the principle of what you're trying to say, but sure didn't like how you put it, especially this part:
"Anyone, since the beginning of time, who has lived up to the light God revealed possesses what it takes to be one of the 144,000."
I'm too tired now to try to improve on it, but surely it's possible to put things so that Christ enters into play somewhere.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/27/04 10:11 AM
How do you look at old threads? I'd like to look at Stacie's question about how the blood of Jesus washes away our sins, but don't know how to find it.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/28/04 07:03 AM
Jesus, of course, put it best: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Mat 5:16.
Jesus was never afraid to refer it as our light, our good works, our righteousness. I used to wonder about this way of expressing righteousness by faith, but long ago I came to the conclusion that righteousness is reality. It's not something that God waves around in heaven, something detached from us. "For the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Rev 19:8.
It is implied that we are able to live up to the light God has revealed by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. This implication is inherent throughout the Bible. But I agree with you that when we mortals speak about it among ourselves we should spell it out. We can never give God the credit too often.
PS - I don't know of any search option on MSDAOL.
Posted By: Tom
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/27/04 11:23 PM
It's fine for Jesus to enjoin us to let our lights shine, and so forth, but our language should be of Him. The Gospel is about Him. By beholding Him, we may be transformed to the same image. If we behold Him perfectly, the transformation will be perfect.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Conversion Controversy - 11/28/04 12:14 AM
Here is the link to Stacie's topic which is located in the Bible Study forum of MSDAOL:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000242