Harmony with God

Posted By: Tom

Harmony with God - 10/31/04 08:27 AM

When a person is born again, he is changed so as to be in harmony with God and God's law. As long as he does not resist God's grace, he will be made to be more and more like Christ.

Comments?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 10/31/04 05:50 PM

Before commenting, can you add some meat to that with some Bible references and quotes, as well as some relevant EGW references and quotes?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 10/31/04 06:41 PM

Also, what about believers who do not know about the sabbath and diet? are they born again? If so, then why aren't they in harmony with God's law? And, what do you mean by - "he will be made to be more and more like Christ"? If his life is in harmony with the law isn't he already Christlike? Or, do you mean he will gradually sin less and less until he ceases to sin? Are we more like Jesus if we are less like Satan? Are we more like Jesus if we progress from murdering someone to only hating them in our heart?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/01/04 07:49 AM

Could it be that it is more like when being born again one does live without sin, but like Peter when walking on water other things sooner or later manages to distract/misslead ones eyes from Jesus. When this happends the person starts to sink/sin until the circle compleates when the sinking is noticed and like Peter one once again look to Jesus asking, no, shouting out to Him for help. Growing in Jesus would then be to better resist the temptation to look to the glittering adds of the world in desire or at the towering clouds of darkness in fear.

Comments?

/Thomas

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 10/31/04 08:00 PM

quote:
when being born again one does live without sin

Yes, Thomas, that's what makes sense to me. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, so long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

But the instant we take our eyes off Jesus we cannot not commit a known sin. Without Jesus we sin automatically. But we are not left to wallow in our defeat and despair. No way. Rather, the Holy Spirit immediately begins offering us the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and then God restores the relationship our sin severed. He restores us back to the mind of the new man.

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 10/31/04 10:57 PM

I am noticing some disturbing ideas that border if not cross the line and is outright legalism such as your "diet" In case you didn't know Jesus ate fish..yes He did, so being a vegetarian will NOT get you into heaven.

As for people bing in harmony with God. Well the Bible says this about the Gentiles:

quote:

Romans 2:15,15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

God has written His law on everyones heart, so this tells me that the people who God will call out of Babylon will know the truths contained in the Bible because they are written upon their hearts and minds.
God Bless,
WIll

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/01/04 02:37 AM

Will, more on the same theme...

1 tim1: 3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Also, I think you are right about the legalism part. What sums up the law is "Love the Lord Your God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself". Merely fullfilling the letter of the law is not what God desires us to do but to show mercy and accnowledgement of God (hos6:6).
1 John 3: 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

/Thomas

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/01/04 03:47 AM

Will, just in case you didn't know, I agree with you regarding salvation and diet and sabbath keeping and non-SDA born again believers. However, during the MOB crisis, under the influence of the loud cry of the latter rain, everyone will choose for or against, among other things, diet reform and sabbath keeping. Those who reject these truths will be lost.

Also, do you really believe Gentiles (heathens wholly ignorant of the Bible) unwittingly obey all of the commandments, including the seventh-day sabbath? Or, do you think Paul was talking about the last six commandments? And, do you believe they will be saved based on their works?

Posted By: Shelley

Re: Harmony with God - 11/01/04 04:27 PM

quote:
under the influence of the loud cry of the latter rain, everyone will choose for or against, among other things, diet reform and sabbath keeping. Those who reject these truths will be lost.

Mike, are you saying if I choose not to become a vegetarian during the latter rain, I will not be saved?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/01/04 08:37 PM

Shelley, good question. Whether or not we are translated alive when Jesus returns depends on the truths we accept or reject during the outpouring of the latter rain. No one will be saved alive if they reject the 3AMs.

DA 490
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}

CH 575
Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people, to walk no more with them. {CH 575.2}

Living in harmony with God means living in harmony with present truth. Yes, there was a time when God winked at meat eating. But that time passed a long time ago. God's attitude about the injurious effects of eating meat is no different than any other harmful habit - including tobacco and narcotics. Vegetarianism is present truth, and has been for over a hundred years.

People who insist on eating meat, because the Bible condones it, are in essence rejecting present truth. This attitude, not meat eating itself, towards present truth is what causes people to abandon the Advent Movement during the final crisis. If we are willing to reject present truth, no matter what it is, then we are unfit for heaven. It is this unfitness that bars against us the gates of heaven.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/02/04 06:40 PM

Shelley,
Being a vegetarian will not get you into heaven plain and simple. In fact nothing we do of our own strengthwill get us into heaven.
However in this day and age the quality of meat has gone down the drain basically.
I was talking to a lady and she mentioned in such a non-chalant manner that "The avian flu is harmless to humans", and that our (Canadian) meat is healthier than the meat in the states.
From my perspective I would like meat with NO antibiotics,steroids,stressed out animals, and free from diseases. Some viral infection is not acceptable.
However you are not going to hell for eating a tbone steak, but from a health point of view it is much like "eat a tbone at your own risk". There is a verse in the Bible that menions something regarding that even the animals are gronaing, so I wonder if it has to do with today?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/03/04 12:03 AM

Will, please verify your insights with inspired quotes. The idea that eating meat is not going to ban us from heaven is a bold and daring statement, especially in light of what Sister White wrote about meat eating and the last days. By the way, T-Bone steaks do not pass the laws of health in Leviticus, at least not the way they are served in North America - with the blood and fat. Kosher meat is what the Bible specifies. But even that has been banned by God in these last days.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/03/04 12:34 AM

Thats an easy one Mike. I didn;t think I had to actually quote this but here goes the first of may:

quote:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/03/04 12:36 AM

What will ban you from heaven is not being saved. Not if you like to eat a turkey sandwich.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/03/04 01:34 AM

If anybody wishes to discuss the side topic on vegetarian versus non-vegetarian as a salvation issue any further, please do it as a new topic, unless you are prepared to clearly relate it with this topic on how it is, or is not, in harmony with God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 12:17 AM

Here's the original post:

quote:
When a person is born again, he is changed so as to be in harmony with God and God's law. As long as he does not resist God's grace, he will be made to be more and more like Christ. Commetns?

At what point are we in harmony with God's law? What constitutes living in harmony with His law? and, how does it relate to salvation? Does God require us to live in harmony with the laws of health? What are the consequences if we refuse to adopt a vegan diet during the final crisis?

Will has suggested that we are saved regardless of whether we accept or reject Sister White's counsel on health reform. What is the truth? Does living in harmony with God's law include health reform? Can God save us if we refuse to live in harmony with His law, even the least of these laws?

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 01:18 AM

I've been busy the last couple of days. To answer Daniel's original question, here are a couple of quotations from EGW I had in mind when I wrote the original post:

quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

quote:
God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)

The first quote deals with what it means to be brought into harmony with God and His law. The second has to do with how God will make all those like Christ who do not resist His grace.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 10:03 AM

When are the following promises a reality? Under what circumstances do they apply? Please explain your answer, and provide scripture to support it. Thank you.

Genesis
17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Psalm
119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Jeremiah
31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel
36:26, 27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Romans
6:2, 6 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? ... Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Hebrews
13:20, 21 Now the God of peace... Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James
3:2 If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.

1 Peter
2:1-3 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

1 Peter
4:1, 2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John
3:6-9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 10:21 AM

Mike,
You are not saved by your works. You are saved by GRACE and faith IN Jesus, not by eating gluten. If I choose to eat fish then I will, if I choose to eat turkey I will. FInd me some scripture to back up the claim that you are lost for eating chicken. Scripture only as that is where I base my standard of faith... in the Word of God.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Shelley

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 01:10 PM

MARK

quote:
Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law, why are we not stoning people to death, wearing torn clothes and unkempt hair if we have an infectious disease and shouting out unclean. There are heaps more that I could list.

quote:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Could it be that, by His death, Jesus has fulfilled the law, and the old laws, apart from the 10 commandments, do not apply to us anymore?

quote:
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Note: The above verse says "whoever breaks the least of the commandments, shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven ". It does not say that he or she shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:23 AM

Will, the inspired insights of Sister White represent present truth. To set aside new light in favor of old light is dangerous ground. Please listen to the prophets and prosper, otherwise you make of none effect the voice of God to the remnant church.

2 Chronicles
20:20 Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

Hosea
4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We are not saved by faith alone, simply for the reason true faith is never alone, it is always accompanied by corresponding works. Faith without works is dead.

James
2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If we refuse to comply with the will and voice of God, as expressed through the inspired counsel of Sister White, then we are in an unsaved state. If we reject and refuse to adopt and implement the endtime vegan diet, advocated in the SOP, then we are rebellion against God and His kingdom. Any injurious habit we indulge by choice violates our soul temple, the throne of God, and is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1 Corinthians
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians
10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:28 AM

I am like Will interested in the bible references to when and why eating kosher meat would be a salvation issue. And before anyone comes around to remind of the first sin of eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, Id like to say this was about trusting God or not trusting God. Eating kosher meat can only be compared if such scripture can be found than clearly says God forbids it.

What I find strange is that Gods rules on food would have gone from middle hard (if you touch this and that animal, you must wash and be unclean till evening), to more open (eat that which God made with thanksgiving, and, only this do we place upon them that they refrain from eating blood) to supposedly in our days be (eat meat and your eternal salvation is threatened or maybe lost for it).

Anyways, maybe this is the wrong thread to post this but then the question has appeared here so...

/Thomas

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
If we refuse to comply with the will and voice of God, as expressed through the inspired counsel of Sister White, then we are in an unsaved state. If we reject and refuse to adopt and implement the endtime vegan diet, advocated in the SOP, then we are rebellion against God and His kingdom. Any injurious habit we indulge by choice violates our soul temple, the throne of God, and is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Mike, I dont really understand your point here. First you say that to eat animal products or animals is a sin against the body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Then you quote a text that says that ONLY fornication counts as such a sin. You got me confused this time allright.

/Thomas

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:49 AM

Sorry Mike. You can't topple the Word of God using Sister White's writings as a platform and go against what she specifically said regarding if there is a contradiction between her writings and the Bible, and that is to use the Bible. You have chosen to follow her as your voice, and I have chosen since a child to follow Jesus.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:54 AM

I also noticed no Bible verses to back up the claim of salvation by works either. Not only that no vereses to back up the claim of going head first to hell for eating a chicken wing. Personally I would find it rather unusual and alarming when I can't back up my claim with the Bible. Sister White is not the Bible, and unfortunately many people refer to her as if she was Jesus.
Present truth is found... In the Bible.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:01 PM

Shelley, another way to look at Jesus' thoughts regarding the binding nature of the law is from the prospective the Christian Church. In the OT dispensation the nation of God was governed by a theocracy, but in the NT dispensation the church of God governs herself under the jurisdiction of earthly governments. As such, certain rights and privileges enjoyed in the OT are no longer available in the NT. For example, the Church no longer possesses the right to administer the death penalty for capitol offences. God has given this responsibility to earthly governments, which we are enjoined to obey unto salvation or damnation.

Romans
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Nevertheless, just because the Church can no longer function independent of earthly governments in matters concerning the death penalty it does not mean God has abolished those aspects of His law. They still apply, but in a manner altogether different than in OT times. Thus, the words of Jesus stand true today, as always. And we would do well to heed His words, our eternal life depends on it. We will never enter heaven unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

By the way, being called the least in the kingdom of heaven does not imply impenitent lawbreakers will occupy a lower status in heaven than those who obeyed every aspect of God’s law. This passage refers to how the heavenly inhabitants classify lawbreakers and law keepers. Liars and lawbreakers will not enter heaven unless, of course, they repent and obey the law of God perfectly.

Revelation
21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:07 PM

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:08 PM

I may not be the best person to comment the question of Ms White vs Bible since I havent read much of her books, but recently I have done some searches in the EW library using bible either alone or with other keywords and based on what I then read, there is no way anyone could claim that what Ellen wrote should replace anything that is written in the bible. She defends the bible and its worth in stronger words than anyone I have yet seen in this forum.

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:11 PM

The quick answer is that the promises you have written become a reality when one exercises faith.

It would be more fruitful, IMO, to develop some sort of argument, using a few quotations to support a position, rather than quote a whole long list of texts. Everyone in this disucssion believes the Bible. Not everyone understands the Bible the same way. The thing to consider is what a text means.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:15 PM

Thomas and Will, whether or not we can eat our way out of heaven is a very important issue. Diet and health reform are the right arm of the 3AMs. If we reject it we reject God. Deliberately eating something unclean, or unfit for human consumption, is a sin. And if we refuse to repent and confrom to the will of God, to present truth, our sin will bar the gates of heaven against us. The choice is ours.

CD 73
The gospel of health has able advocates, but their work has been made very hard because so many ministers, presidents of conferences, and others in positions of influence, have failed to give the question of health reform its proper attention. They have not recognized it in its relation to the work of the message as the right arm of the body. While very little respect has been shown to this department by many of the people, and by some of the ministers, the Lord has shown His regard for it by giving it abundant prosperity. {CD 73.1}

When properly conducted, the health work is an entering wedge, making a way for other truths to reach the heart. When the third angel's message is received in its fullness, health reform will be given its place in the councils of the conference, in the work of the church, in the home, at the table, and in all the household arrangements. Then the right arm will serve and protect the body. {CD 73.2}

But while the health work has its place in the promulgation of the third angel's message, its advocates must not in any way strive to make it take the place of the message. {CD 73.3}

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:20 PM

Mike,
I still see the following:
1. Working your way to heaven
2. No Bible verses to back up the claim of eating chicken, or fish will prevent you from going to heaven using the Bible.

No one has the right to say that yo uwill go to heaven if you eat broccoli and the fish eating Christian is hell bound. That is not Biblical at all. Show me in the Bible where that is found.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:22 PM

Tom, I agree with you, The promises of God apply to us the moment we are born again and believe them through faith. Others seem to disagree. They might apply them to certain defects of character, but not to all of them. They seem to feel there are certain sins we do not overcome until after years of gradually outgrowing them. By the way, the reason I posted so many promises which say the same thing is because some people tend to twist isolated promises to serve a lie. But it's harder to get away with that in light of a multitude of testimonies. Some still manage to figure out a way though.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 08:33 PM

quote:
Will, the inspired insights of Sister White represent present truth. To set aside new light in favor of old light is dangerous ground. Please listen to the prophets and prosper, otherwise you make of none effect the voice of God to the remnant church.

2 Chronicles
20:20 Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

Hosea
4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We are not saved by faith alone, simply for the reason true faith is never alone, it is always accompanied by corresponding works. Faith without works is dead.

James
2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If we refuse to comply with the will and voice of God, as expressed through the inspired counsel of Sister White, then we are in an unsaved state. If we reject and refuse to adopt and implement the endtime vegan diet, advocated in the SOP, then we are rebellion against God and His kingdom. Any injurious habit we indulge by choice violates our soul temple, the throne of God, and is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1 Corinthians
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians
10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Will, if these passages mean nothing to you in light of the endtime vegan diet advocated and required by God in the SOP, then I don't suppose you can be convinced. Please read Counsels on Diets and Foods and tell me what you think. It's not a matter of working our way in or out of heaven, it's a matter of faith and works, law and grace - the age old argument. We cannot work our way to heaven, but none of us will be there if we refuse to allow heaven to work its way in us.

SC 62, 63
More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us. {SC 63.1}

Notice what she says here: "Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us." It takes both. We are not saved by faith alone, because true faith is never alone. True faith works by love and purifies the soul. "Faith which worketh by love." Gal 5:6.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 09:06 PM

Hi Mike,
I understand clearly that it is not by faith alone, nor by works alone. That is not the issue, but the issue is the condemnation of a person due to them eating turkey, fish or chicken. That is what its about.
Too much of anything is harmful, and if it is unfit for human consumption such as infected meats then don't touch it. Waving a stick of "not listening to Counsel" which would result in making of none effect the Word of God is akin to arm twisting. God will not banish you from heaven because you ate fish! You will not go to heaven if you are not saved plain and simple. JOhn 3:16 cuts right to it quickly. Naturally this doesn;t mean anyone can live a life of decandence, and their salvation is not negated by eating fish.. You will not lose your salvation for eating fish, or turkey, or chicken. It is not Biblical plain and simple. I am looking for Bible verses to support the eating of fish and chicken and it affecting your Salvation i.e. You will not go to heaven.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 09:46 PM

Mike
Yes, the question is indeed whether what we eat will bring us closer or further from God. The bible indicates that such which is eaten with good concience will bring us neither closer nor further while you say this has changed since 150 +- years ago.

You claim that the health message is the right arm of the 3AM. How can this be? The chapter talking about the 3AM does not mention food, it talks about worship, unless of course you see Gods wine of wrath as a foodstuff. Health may be, or even is, the method which SDA has used and in many places is using to bring the 3AM to people. Is this the same as being the right arm I wonder?

Further I notice that what you here call unclean and unfit for consumption, considdering that we here are talking bird and fish, is something the bible never calls unclean or unfit for consumption. Some birds, though perhaps not chickens, where what the poor should bring as an offering before God. Do you call such unclean which God in those days would accept as an offering?

If we refuse Gods will for us, then its agreed that such a choise is like locking one self out of Gods presence. The question here is wether Gods will for us took a 180 degree turn on this particular issue at a sertain point in time. This unless someone can show that eating no meat whatsoever is a natural step in Gods process of showing us His will. That would require this person to show a process going from much meat (in egypt for instance) to meat of a sertain kind only (at sinai) to, here comes the apparent problem. Is the consumption of clean meats further restricted in the prophets or NT as would be the case in a gradual revealing of veganism? It does not seem so but maybe someone has researched it and can show if and where I (supposedly) am wrong.

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/04/04 10:33 PM

Regarding the health message, the general principle is that since God communicates with us through the mind, we should take care of our minds so that we can understand what He is saying to us. This is especially important in the context of the last days in which we live.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 03:29 AM

I never understood the Health Message in the area of a vegetarian diet versus a non-vegetarian diet as being a salvation issue, however, I remember that EGW stated that a vegetarian believer and follower of Christ would live to be translated, whereas, God out of mercy would not suffer a non-vegetarian believer and follower of Christ to go through the time of trouble, as his body wouldn't be in any condition to make it through that ordeal.

In other words, a non-vegetarian believer would be laid to rest prior to the time of trouble to be resurrected at the Second Coming.

I don't recall reading anywhere in her writings that a non-vegetarian believer and follower of Christ would be lost.

If necessary, I will need to do some research for EGW references and quotes.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 04:49 AM

Okay. Enough said. Unless someone else wants to share more quotes regarding the necessity of a vegan diet, during the closing scenes of Earth's history (I'm not talking today, right now), I won't say any more. Please read the book Counsels on Diet and Foods to see for yourself what Sister White said about it. Our body is the temple of God, what we do with it directly effects His dwelling place. The choice is ours.

When the choices include fruits, nuts, grains, vegetables and legumes - I can testify that meat is not necessary, indeed, the medical journals are proving over and over again that not only is meat not necessary, it's also one of the leading causes of cancer and heart disease. I'm not going to put anything in my body, if better choices are available, that can rob me of my health, especially since my family has a history of cancer and heart disease.

The Bible condones eating fruit, but I'm not going to eat fruit that has gone bad or has been proven to cause long term illnesses. I feel the same about meat. There is no safe meat, not any more, and hasn't been for many years. Besides, people who insist on eating beef, because it is considered clean in the Bible, usually do not eat it kosher, according to the Bible - no blood, no fat. Many animals die of their accord. To eat it is to sin. Do they know if the animal they're eating was killed properly? Do they care? Do they bother to ask? If not, they are not in harmony with God's law.

CH 480
The Lord has been sending us line upon line, and if we reject these principles, we are not rejecting the messenger who teaches them, but the One who has given us the principles. {CH 480.1}

CME 31, 32
Reform, continual reform, must be kept before the people, and by our example we must enforce our teachings. True religion and the laws of health go hand in hand. It is impossible to work for the salvation of men and women without presenting to them the need of breaking away from sinful gratifications, which destroy the health, debase the soul, and prevent divine truth from impressing the mind. Men and women must be taught to take a careful review of every habit and every practice, and at once put away those things that cause an unhealthy condition of the body, and thus cast a dark shadow over the mind.-Counsels on Health, p. 445. {CME 31.4}

Those who act as teachers are to be intelligent in regard to disease and its causes, understanding that every action of the human agent should be in perfect harmony with the laws of life. The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world. Men and women should be informed in regard to the human habitation, fitted up by our Creator as His dwelling place, and over which He desires us to be faithful stewards. "For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."--Review and Herald, Nov. 12, 1901. {CME 32.1}

CME 35, 36,
As a people we have been given the work of making known the principles of health reform. There are some who think that the question of diet is not of sufficient importance to be included in their evangelistic work. But such make a great mistake. God's Word declares, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." The subject of temperance, in all its bearings, has an important place in the work of salvation.-- Testimonies, Vol. 9, p. 112. {CME 35.4}

Edit: included the quotes from Sister White.

[ November 04, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 05:50 AM

My issue here isn't whether we shouldn't eat meat whether beef, chicken, etc. but, if a person chooses to eat these and other clean meat, it is a salvation issue, whether it is a salvation issue in that a person who does so will lose their salvation.

My thoughts are that it is not a salvation issue. There will be consequences, however, it isn't a salvation issue.

Posted By: Charlene Van Hook

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 06:03 AM

Testimony Studies on Diet and Foods
Diet and Morals----PG- 26

2 T.--352
" If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden
the moral powers. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to Heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health."

Counsels on Diet and Foods

- Flesh Meats (Proteins Continued) -PG- 380

Preparing for Translation

Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view, and endeavor to work steadily toward it. I
cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us. All who are connected with our health institutions especially should be educating themselves to subsist on fruits, grains, and vegetables. If we move from principle in these things, if we as Christian reformers educate our own taste, and bring our diet to God's plan, then we may exert an influence upon others in this matter, which will be pleasing to God."

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 06:06 AM

Daryl, I'm sorry, but I posted those quotes above before I realized you posted your ideas on diet and salvation. Again, please take the time read what she said about the importance of health reform. I suspect you'll change your mind about it.

Thank you, Charlene, for sharing those quotes. "I cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us." God is good.

Posted By: Charlene Van Hook

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 06:07 AM

Temperance----PG- 161

Satan is no novice in the business of destroying souls. He well knows that if he can lead men and women into wrong habits of eating and drinking, he has gained, in a great degree,
the control of their minds and baser passions. In the beginning man ate of the fruits of the earth, but sin brought into use the flesh of dead animals as food. This diet works directly
against the spirit of true refinement and moral purity. The substance of that which is taken into the stomach, passes into the circulation, and is converted into flesh and blood. . . ."

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 07:20 AM

I'm a bit curious, Daryl, why you would think diet is not a salvation issue.

Here's how I look at things. God will take anybody to heaven who would be happy there; anyone who is a friend of His. He can't take rebels. He can't take people who hate Him. In order to win our friendship, He sent Jesus Christ to reveal His lovely character to us. If we are open to this revelation, we will be transformed into the same image; we will be made like Christ. We learn to live our lives in harmony with the principles of God's government; principles of living for others, principles of love.

God communicates to us through our minds, which are connected to our bodies. If we do things to our bodies/minds that impacts how well God can communicate with us. If we take drugs God will have a lot more difficulty communicating with us. If we cannot understand what God is trying to tell us, that may lead to our being lost. Filling ourselves with sugar would be an obvious example of how diet could effect our ability to understand God's Good News. This could impact our salvation. Similarly anything that we do which leads to our dying earlier than we otherwise might have could be an issue of salvation if we die as unbelievers.

Posted By: Shelley

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 12:38 PM

MARK

quote:
Diet and health reform are the right arm of the 3AMs.

I don't understand how diet and health reform are the right arm of the 3AMs. Can you please explain what you mean?

In another post you suggested that we read EGWs Counsels on Diet. I am currently a quarter of the way through EGWs Counsels on Diet & Food. It has lots of commendable information in it. However it also has lots of stuff that I would call dribble. As such, I find it extremely difficult to believe that it was inspired by God. That being the case, I now question EGWs authenticity as a prophet of God.

Why is it that food is such a big issue for SDAs? Food, food, food, always food. I am soooo sick of it. Do this, do that, don’t do this, don’t do that, don't eat this, don't eat that. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH @#%$@*?!

I give up! I don't think I want to be an Adventist anymore. It is toooo hard. I don't want to belong to an organisation that seems to focus more on food than on Jesus.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 05:38 PM

Like many organizations, SDA's have a great deal of diversity. There are those who have different emphases. You can notice that by reading through the threads.

Regarding not being an Adventist because it's too hard, I can say I understand your frustration, but it's based on a misunderstanding of God's character. Following God is not a hard thing to do. Jesus said, "Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." To Paul Christ said, "It's hard to kick against the pricks." What's difficult to do is resist the Holy Spirit. It's easy to take Christ's yoke.

God only asks us to do things which are in our own interest. God communicates to us through the mind. The mind and the body are connected. By taking care of our bodies, we take care of our minds. It's really as simple as that.

Counsels on Diet and Foods is a compilation. I certainly wouldn't recommend reading it for anyone who's not an Adventist. There you get a lot of do's and dont's as you say without any context. It creates a false impression.

If you are unsure whether Ellen G. White is a prophetess, read The Desire of Ages. That's a beautiful book which reveals the character of God and expresses the essential principles of Adventism in context.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 05:46 PM

Shelley, I'm sorry health reform is such a turn off for you. It is just the opposite for me. Poor health has devastated my extended family for years. So many of my loved ones suffer terribly. But not me. At least, not any more. I became an Adventist largely because of health reform. My reasons now include much better motives, namely, I love Jesus and want to live eternally with Him and my friends and family.

Health is very important, but most people do not realize it until they begin to lose it. I got my education to serve the church as a pastor at Weimar College in Northern California. They specialize in health reform. People come from all over the world to learn how to recover their health and then how to maintain it. I met lots of precious souls who cannot praise the church enough because of our health message. And not a few became members. Living in harmony with God's will and law is not a bummer for them, that's for sure. Health reform saved their lives.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 06:59 PM

Shelley,
I wouldn't get too worked up about the misconception one must eat grapfruit and wheat in order to get to heaven. Your salvation is not dependant on eating vegetables only since we have genetically modified vegetables which happen to have genes which come from animals. This is something to consider when you think that you are eating something healthy and uncontaminated.
There is wheat that has genes from animals, and corn also.

Don't fret Shelley, and don't let the devil discourage you from your walk with Christ who by the way.. ate Fish!

So none of the arguments such as :

1. Well you see fish was different 2,000 years ago.
2. Meat was Ok since it was not present truth.
3. Eat vegetables only to get to heaven.

Those arguments hold ZERO weight. Being pure and righteous comes from Jesus and not via a fruit (I think we have a case for idolatry here).
The state of affairs is that vegetables are contaminated, meats are contaminated, the air you breathe is contaminated that contain chemicals, and particles harmful to your body which by the way everyone knows so no one can be without excuse. So unless you decide to start breathing water (which by the way is also contaminated) then you may have been better off not being born.

Depressing isn't it when you are told you won't go to heaven cause you eat fish, or chicken, or turkey. However eating fruit and grain will get you to heaven they imply.. The diet that Adam and Eve had is WAAAYYYY different than what we have today. Anyone care to look into the actual vitamin and mineral content of the land on which these vegetables are grown by the aggroculture industry? I think you may as well add some honey to cardboard and eat that and get more fiber.
Eden was perfect something we will never in this lifetime have..Adam and Eve were immortal.. something we in this lifetime will never have, Adam and Eve were perfect something NO ONE HERE can say they have because.... We were conceived in sin, live in a world of sin, sin is around us, and sin has altered the genetic makeup of everything for the past 6,000 years.

No escaping it.. So Shelley the devil will use anyone to get to you and and if you submit yourself to God and resist the devil he will flee!

If you feel that you want to start changing your diet to improve your health then by all means do so. I think its excellent to have a balanced diet, and your overall well being will improve and maybe shed a few pounds [Big Grin]

Pretty tought times we live in. However rest assurred Shelley that as you grow in Christ He will lead you and guide you in all that you do.

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 07:43 AM

Will, your words seem to implicate the counsel God gave to Sister White to share with His remnant people. Please carefully compare what you just posted to what God posted through Sister White. Do you see any difference?

FW 43
None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment-breakers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly trampled upon and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken to heaven to do the same work there; there is no change of character when Christ comes. {FW 43.2}

CD 21
Knowledge must be gained in regard to how to eat, and drink, and dress so as to preserve health. Sickness is caused by violating the laws of health; it is the result of violating nature's law. Our first duty, one which we owe to God, to ourselves, and to our fellow men, is to obey the laws of God, which include the laws of health. If we are sick, we impose a weary tax upon our friends, and unfit ourselves for discharging our duties to our families and to our neighbors. And when premature death is the result of our violation of nature's law, we bring sorrow and suffering to others; we deprive our neighbors of the help we ought to render them in living; we rob our families of the comfort and help we might render them, and rob God of the service He claims of us to advance His glory. Then, are we not, in the worst sense, transgressors of God's law? {CD 21.2}

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 09:46 PM

Mike,
I choose what the Bible says any day. Its that easy, and my faith is rooted in the Word of God, and not what Sister White says, she was strongly opposed to what is being done today where people say "Ellen White says.." and the expected response is something along the lines of being quiet as if she is the final word.

You know what God says about stuff like that?

quote:

Revelation 22:18,19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Very clear and concise. Thats why God said that the Word is powerful, and will cut, and separate the bones, and joints even to the soul. Thats where we find Jesus.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 10:02 PM

Will, it would appear, and please correct me if I've misunderstood you, that you believe Sister White's views on diet and salvation contradict the Bible. Also, do you feel living in harmony with God's law includes the new light and present truth revealed in the SOP?

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 10:37 PM

I firmly believe that Sister White's writings are abused to the point where it makes me wonder who is following who.
I believe that the Bible is clear on salvation, and if there is a contradiction between what Sister white says and what the Bible says then what can you do.
Naturally the Bible is also abused to the point where I wonder where such interpretations came from, and that goes for anything else.
If I find a contradiction between Sister Whites writings and the Bible well then thats what I see. If there isn't well then there isn't. I think that there is way too much abuse, and discouragement against people who are still on the baby milk formula, and are being fed some tough meat which they cannot digest. Telling somone they wil lgo to hell for eating a tuna sandwich is extreme and fanatical, and not only that it is not in the Bible. I still have yet to see anyone provide Bible verses that condems you to hell for eating drumstick. Please provide Bible verses.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 11:43 PM

Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God? If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God? And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God? If so, would you be willing to explain how and why? At this point, most people run and hide, but somehow I don't think you are that type of person, at least I hope not.

Also, if a new believer happens to come across this thread, I hope and pray they are strong enough to see the forest in spite of the trees, that is, not lose sight of the bigger picture on account of the details. Diet is just one part of salvation. It is rather difficult to talk about all 27 fundamental doctrines simultaneously.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/05/04 11:55 PM

By the way, I edited this post to say that I posted this before reading the two posts previous to this post.

I believe that the writings of EGW are inspired, however, I don't believe the way we use her writings or even the Bible itself is what I would call "rightly dividing the word of truth."

quote:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We need to be very careful on how we use these writings. If we are not rightly dividing the word of truth, then we are using it as a club, which isn't in harmony with God. [Caution]

Christians don't begin as Adam and Eve began before the Fall, fully grown. They were the only ones who were born as babies. Their lives began fully grown. Even though fully grown, they still had much to learn. Eve was deceived. Adam followed in her in her deception.

Christians begin as newborn babes in Christ. They first need to drink the milk of the Word before being fed the meat of the Word. Feeding a new Christian meat first isn't good for the new Christian. The same is true for new Seventh-day Adventist Christians.

By feeding a new Adventist Christian meat, instead of the milk first, you could be responsible for that person's stumbling. That definitely isn't in harmony with God.

I, therefore, say that we need to be very careful in what we quote, be it the Bible or EGW, without rightly explaining it with the bigger picture in mind.

There is a lot more ways than this food discussion to be out of harmony with God.

God accepts us where we are, whether pertaining to flesh eating, or whatever. It's too bad we also do not accept people where they are like God does.

I think we all need to examine ourselves in the way we present things here, taking into consideration where each of us are in the rung of the ladder, Jacob's ladder, in our climb towards heaven.

quote:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Shelley is a new Adventist Christian, therefore, I challenge you not to be a stumbling block to her and others that may be in the same arena.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 12:06 AM

Shelley,

You said, "I don't think I want to be an Adventist anymore. It is toooo hard. I don't want to belong to an organisation that seems to focus more on food than on Jesus."

The operative word in what you said is seems.

The SDA Church's focus is on Jesus with the results being different depending on where each person is at in their Christian walk.

You are just as accepted by God in your present understanding of the food issue as Mike Lowe is in his present understanding of the food issue. In fact, you may be even in more harmony with God than he is or than I am in this issue and other issues, therefore, keep on trucking and living up to all the convictions that the Holy Spirit has given you. If you are not convicted on this food issue, then don't worry about it. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin; not Mike Lowe or anybody else.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 12:16 AM

Daryl, might I suggest that you move this topic to a private forum? Also, how do we determine what is milk and what is meat? In some cases, like Weimar, the first thing people learn about the Bible and the SDA church is diet and health reform, and I know from experience it is like water to a thirsty soul. In the Bible, one of the first things God told the newborn slaves from Egypt (i.e., the children of Israel) to do was to incorporate and to practice diet and health reform. If quoting the Bible and Sister White regarding these basic and simple truths is wrong, then what is right?

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 12:59 AM

I strongly feel that any new Christian would feel that they were stubmling due to the content of this topic. Shelley does not need to feel pressured into giving up turkey dinner eveyr year with family or her favorite poultry\fish\beef dish because of misconceived ideas about losing your salvation over food?! THink about it..Waking up at the SECOND resurrection to find out it was because of eating turkey or something like that. Seriously think about it.. If Jesus can forgive a thief the crime (if one can even overstep and go that far) of eating salmon or turkey is not even an issue. Very strange and I have yet to find any scripture that supports this position. I keep seeing alot of Ellen White quotes, but not 1 verse dealing with the issue of losing your salvation over eating salmon or turkey or chicken.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 02:57 AM

Will, please don't blow me off, but I'd like to know your answers to the following questions:

quote:
Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God? If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God? And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God? If so, would you be willing to explain how and why? Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

Thank you.

Posted By: Shelley

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 04:17 AM

Thank you everyone for your encouragement and support.

Unlike Mark, diet is not a big issue for me. I exercise regularly and eat a balanced diet. I am currently not over weight and rarely eat meat. I look after myself because I want to be healthy, not because of EGWs beliefs.

Mark, I am glad you were helped by the health message and that it initially bought you to God. I can now see why you are so burdened to share your beliefs in the way that you do.

As for me, I am inclined to agree more with Will, the Bible has the answers. And like Will, I would like to see the Bible verse that says a meat eater will go to hell. Will, thanks for continuing to respond to the questions on this thread. I really appreciate your balanced approach to the situation.

Tom, you are right, following God should not be a hard thing to do, and it wasn’t, until I joined the Adventist church. You are also right about not recommending Counsels on Diet and Food to non Adventists. At this point in time, I would only recommend it to the garbage can.

Daryl, I believe you are correct when you say “we need to be very careful on how we use these writings. If we are not rightly dividing the word of truth, then we are using it as a club, which isn't in harmony with God.” One point that I would add regarding the “using it as a club” would be that it is being used as a club to beat one over the head with. The whole idea turns my stomach. It reminds me of the Pharisees Jesus mentioned in the bible, the teachers of the law who “shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces.” [Matt 23:23]. Maybe I am wrong but being beaten over the head with all of these do’s and don’ts seems like legalism to me.

I would like everyone to understand that eating meat is not really an issue for me. I can live without it. The issue is the loss of salvation because of what you put in your mouth, eating ones way into heaven. WORKS!!!!

In order to stay sane in the Adventist church, I have to take a stand, and that stand is: The Bible has the answers. It says: “Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved” [Mark 16:16]. “If I remain in Him He will remain in me” [John 15: 4] and “the Holy Spirit will teach me all things” [John 14:26]. God has spoken these words and I claim them right now.

As of now, I am getting off the roller coaster of religiosity, and resting in Christ. I intend to enjoy my time with Jesus and to keep it simple. [Heart]

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 05:07 AM

Mike,
We are on page 3 and the last page I have asked for verses and we are about half way through with this page, and still no verses to support eating turkey,salmon,chicken, or beef will send cause a person who is saved by the way to lose their salvation. We all would like to see those verses can you please provide some.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 05:29 AM

Shelley, I'm glad you have decided not to blow off Jesus just because the SDA church advocates a vegan diet for endtime believers. Are church members hell bound if they reject this message? I guess it depends on why they reject it, which also goes for any other present truth God sends His remnant people. Some people in the church are going to accept the mark of the beast. Why? Because, at least in some cases, they will rationalize choosing to die, rather than break the sabbath, is too legalistic.

What is my point? Deciding against present truth because it seems too legalistic is not a valid reason for rejecting it. Our choices should be based on sound biblical principles. You sound like a sincere and loving person, so I am sure you are doing what you believe is the right thing, not because someone else opposes Sister White's insights on veganism and last day events.

God bless, happy sabbath, and thank you for all the sharing you have posted on MSDAOL. I hope you return again soon (if not on this thread, then at least on one you like better).

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 05:53 AM

Mike,
3 pages and over 36 hours have elapsed and not 1 single Bible verse has been provided to support your position of one losing their salvation over eating chicken, turkey, or salmon. You asked me to provide Bible verses and I did so, yet when I have asked you for close to 2 days their is not 1 verse. Are you able to provide Bible verses or not to support your position?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 05:53 AM

Will, as you know, the Bible doesn't forbid eating kosher prepared meat. But, as you also know, it does contain principles that forbid health destroying habits not specifically mentioned in the Bible (i.e., smoking, dope and drugs). The same principles that forbid these things also apply to anything that hinders good health. Arguing that since the air we breathe is harmful it is, therefore, okay to eat beef, turkey and chicken because, in spite of the fact they are infested with cancer causing toxins and impurities, that it is no worse than the air we breathe - this type of argument flies in the face of reason and common sense.

I am reposting the texts I provided on page one, and then again on page two, when you first asked me to support Sister White's insights regarding diet and salvation from the Bible. By the way, these are the same verses that you and I have both used to help others give up smoking and drugs. I believe Sister White's thoughts on veganism and last day events are based on the same cause and effect principles that apply to drugs or any other health destroying habit not specifically prohibited by God in the Bible. These passages make it clear that if we willfully destroy our health, our body temple, then we are in jeopardy of losing our souls.

quote:
1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1 Corinthians
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians
10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 06:12 AM

oops!! Apparently we both must have posted at the same time. Accept my humble aplogies since I don't think it is allowed to delete your own posts,so I left mine up there..

I agree Mike that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit,and I also agree that smoking, drugs, alcohol, and abuse of prescription drugs is contrary to Scripture as I do not recall Jesus smoking or doing any of theabove, and also the Bible strongly opposes any strong drink etc etc.

I also understand that eating meat from sickly animals is not only unhealthy, but not the wisest choice. The difference is if the animals are sickly.

The choice is a persons to make. Today I would strongly recommend not to go and eat a burger, or eat that salmon at Olive Garden. Even the fish is farmed and fed fish parts to fatten them up.

If you get deep sea fish that is healthy, and clean, and it is offered to you for dinner over at family's house I would eat and have done so (1X a year). Its the crab,shrimp,and lobster I don't touch because they are not clean, and the same goes for any unclean meat. Even the beef I don;t eat because its unhealthy, and the animals are usually stressed out, have a large amount of adrenalin running through their body which is in the meat(I believe they know what is going to happen to them at these places)

A Christian person who has access to clean meats from a small farmer and the quality is excellent, and the animals are healthy and fed either real grain or eat the grass and everything is Ok and buys steak or whatever cut from the farmer is not harming their bodies. Its a whole other areana if all you eat every day is meat meat meat meat..Then you risk colon cancer, heart problems, and things of that nature.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 06:47 AM

Shelley, God is infinitely good and any news He has for us is infinitely good. Sometimes there are things which are difficult to understand. You don't seem to have a problem with the Bible, in spite of the fact that there are many places, particularly in the Old Testament, that appear to paint a less than flattering picture of God.

Given that the same lovely Jesus whose character we love as revealed in the Gospels inspired His prophets, we can expect that said prophet would also be sharing with us Good News. My favorite book is the Desire of Ages. I cannot recommend it highly enough. It portrays such a positive picture of God, I can't imagine why anyone would not be encouraged in reading it. That book was a catharsis for me in a very difficult time in my life. It portrays a God who understands me profoundly and simpathizes with me completely.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 07:00 AM

Fair enough. I disagree that any meat is safe to eat today. Back in Sister White's time meat was deemed wholly unfit for human consumption, take into consideration that our best meat is more unfit than the worst meat at that time, and it is clear to me that no meat today is healthy enough to risk eating. And that applies to kosher meat, which most people do not eat.

If refusing to quit smoking or taking drugs, when we know it is forbidden (in principle) by the word of God, I believe it constitutes a violation of the law of God and is, therefore, just cause to keep us out of heaven. Would you agree? If so, then please explain why the same principle doesn't apply to eating meat that is not kosher and otherwise unfit for human consumption.

Also, I am still interested in your position regarding the following questions I posted earlier:

quote:
Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God? If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God? And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God? If so, would you be willing to explain how and why? Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 09:13 AM

quote:
If refusing to quit smoking or taking drugs, when we know it is forbidden (in principle) by the word of God, I believe it constitutes a violation of the law of God and is, therefore, just cause to keep us out of heaven.

God is not trying to keep us out of heaven, He's trying to get us in! He's not looking for "just cause" to keep us out. If He were, not a soul would make it. "If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" (Ps. 130: 3)

Where eating meat and such like fits in is very simple. God communicates to us by way of the mind. Our minds are connected to our bodies. If we cloud our minds, that makes it more difficult for God to communicate to us, and hence more difficult for us to understand the beauty of His character as revealed in Jesus Christ.

It is not arbitrary whims which keep us out of heaven, but our own choice only. Sin causes us to wrongly view God, as evidenced, for example, by Adam and Eve's running away from God in fear. Why did they fear God? Had God changed? No, He still loved them, just as much as before. But because of sin, their minds were confused and they felt condemned, even though God was not condemning them.

God seeks to restore us to Himself by a revelation of Himself to us through Jesus Christ. That revelation, received by faith, saves/restores/heals us. To know God is life eternal (John 17:3). Clouding our minds impedes God's ability to restore us. It is in this sense that our abusing the laws of health may impede our being saved. That's the reason. It's not due to some arbitrary whim of God's. God is not like that.

Posted By: Shelley

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 12:29 PM

Tom, thanks for recommending The Desire of Ages. I did try to read it last year but found it difficult to read. The language threw me off and I just could not get into it. My husband did not have a problem with it though.

On the other hand, I read the Great Controversy and could not put it down. My husband, however, found it difficult to get into and did not read it. Funny isn’t it, maybe it’s a personality thing.

I have since acquired a copy of the "Messiah", a contemporary version of The Desire of Ages. I had forgotten about it and will give it a go now that you have reminded me.

Posted By: Avalee

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 04:19 PM

Since becoming a follower of the one and only God who created me I have run acros things both in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that go against what I WANT TO DO... I pray that instead of having this reaction to something that goes against what we want to do or what we believe is right that we continue to pray and study until we have a better idea of what God wants for our lives in order to serve Him with all of our mind, body and soul. What we eat does affect our mind and the choices we make. This has been proven. This is why God is seeking to bring us back to the original diet He have to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve cbose to eat what they wanted and we are all reaping the results of that choice. Let us all please take the time to study into why God has given us this Health message at this time. He is preparing a people to stand in the last days for Him. Our minds have to be clear in order to discern the true from the false.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 07:43 AM

Tom, of course, God isn't fighting to keep souls out of heaven. He has been, still is, and will continue do whatever it takes to influence us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, so that He can admit us to heaven without fear of failure, knowing that "affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. God will force no one to be in heaven who doesn't want to be there. You ask, Who wouldn't want to be there? Anyone who is unwilling to embrace Jesus here and now, who is unwilling to walk the narrow way, who is unwilling to take up his cross and deny sin, self and Satan, who is unwilling to live in harmony with the law of God. That's who wouldn't want to live in heaven.

And there's plenty of people like that, but who don't know it right now. Sounds strange, but it's painfully true. Think of the rich young ruler. He was genuinely attracted to Jesus, but he was unwilling to part with his worldly possessions and to obey the call to follow Jesus. Christianity involves a cross, but most people don't want to be reminded of the cross. It seems so legalistic, so unappealing, so bloody, so cruel and gruesome. A lot of people feel the same way about words like sin, obedience, judgment, punishment, and hell. They would rather talk about forgiveness, love, mercy, compassion, and kindness. But it’s all the same to God. Remember, the wrath of God is love. Mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin, the coin of love.

In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing legalistic or unappealing about the cross of Christ, about strictly obeying the law of God, about consistently denying myself to serve others, about rigidly refusing to indulge health destroying habits that, not only hinder my ability to hear the voice of God speaking to my soul, but is also a violation of the basic laws of nature and common sense. I am staunchly unwilling to do anything that is not in harmony with the will of God. I love Jesus too much to disobey Him, and He loves me too much to let me down, to withhold the power to obey Him.

Does all this talk about uncompromising obedience sound like heavy drudgery to you? Does it seem legalistic and unChristlike? devoid of love, sympathy, compassion, and the gentle graces of God? I hope not. Since you cannot see me or hear me speaking right now, you cannot discern my heart, you cannot read my body language, the tone of my voice, or the look on my face, thus it might be difficult for you to sense just how passionate, how jealous, I am about our loving Saviour and Friend, and so you might be tempted to read this post with disdain or disgust. Again, I hope not.

My face is lit up like a Christmas tree as I write these things. I know where I came from, I know the depths of despair, depression, discouragement. I know what it’s like to live in sin and disobedience, to live without Christ in my heart. I know what it’s like to run from God, to look over my shoulder and to see Him following me like an abandoned puppy. It hurt like hell, and yet I kept on running, and He kept on chasing after me. Every time I indulged this or that sin, there He was, standing there crying His heart out, and for what? For me! That’s right, for me.

Finally, one day, I couldn’t stand it any more. Breaking His heart, over and over again, was just too much. In the end, it was my heart that was broken, and in its place (please listen to this, this is the part that blows my mind), in place of my broken heart, Jesus gave me a new heart, a brand new heart, a heart full of love and joy and happiness. Praise God. Thank you, Jesus. My life has never been the same. Which is good. And what about sin? I think sin is the most foul, disgusting, loathsome, hateful thing in the world. And I refuse to give it one square inch in my heart. My heart is my home for Jesus, and I have given Him every inch of it. There’s no room left for anything else, especially not sin. I would rather die than let sin crowd Jesus out of my heart. God forbid. I'm not willing to go back there again. No way.

Posted By: John H.

Re: Harmony with God - 11/06/04 11:24 PM

Mike, I can't think of God as being like an abandoned puppy. In any circumstance.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 12:03 AM

quote:
Tom, of course, God isn't fighting to keep souls out of heaven. He has been, still is, and will continue do whatever it takes to influence us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, so that He can admit us to heaven without fear of failure, knowing that "affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9.

I agree completely with this. In fact, I couldn't say it better. Your previous statement spoke of "just cause" to keep us out. People are not kept out of heaven because God has "just cause" to keep them out, but because they choose not to go. The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves.

quote:
God will force no one to be in heaven who doesn't want to be there. You ask, Who wouldn't want to be there? Anyone who is unwilling to embrace Jesus here and now, who is unwilling to walk the narrow way, who is unwilling to take up his cross and deny sin, self and Satan, who is unwilling to live in harmony with the law of God. That's who wouldn't want to live in heaven.

It's true that God won't force anyone to go to heaven who doesn't want to be there. Those who do not want to go are those who have not seen the beauty of His character. It is not the hope of reward or the fear of punishment that leads Christ's followers to follow Him, but they discern the beauty of His character.

quote:
I am staunchly unwilling to do anything that is not in harmony with the will of God. I love Jesus too much to disobey Him, and He loves me too much to let me down, to withhold the power to obey Him.

Does all this talk about uncompromising obedience sound like heavy drudgery to you? Does it seem legalistic and unChristlike? devoid of love, sympathy, compassion, and the gentle graces of God? I hope not. Since you cannot see me or hear me speaking right now, you cannot discern my heart, you cannot read my body language, the tone of my voice, or the look on my face, thus it might be difficult for you to sense just how passionate, how jealous, I am about our loving Saviour and Friend, and so you might be tempted to read this post with disdain or disgust. Again, I hope not.

Your posts do not fill with me disdain and disgust, but they do strike me as self-serving. That is, you appear to have a very high opinion of yourself. I realize Christ has warned us to "judge not, lest ye be not judged" so I hasten to add that I may well be wrong. I may be misreading your posts. The only reason I'm giving you my thoughts, is it appeared to me you were asking for them.

"I am staunchly unwilling to do anything that is not in harmony with the will of God. I love Jesus too much to disobey Him." This is how Peter felt before his fall.

In the chapter of "The Two Worshippers" EGW writes:

quote:
No man can of himself understand his errors. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer. 17:9. The lips may express a poverty of soul that the heart does not acknowledge. While speaking to God of poverty of spirit, the heart may be swelling with the conceit of its own superior humility and exalted righteousness. In one way only can a true knowledge of self be obtained. We must behold Christ. It is ignorance of Him that makes men so uplifted in their own righteousness. When we contemplate His purity and excellence, we shall see our own weakness and poverty and defects as they really are. We shall see ourselves lost and hopeless, clad in garments of self-righteousness, like every other sinner. We shall see that if we are ever saved, it will not be through our own goodness, but through God's infinite grace.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 12:14 AM

Mike,

Q1: Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?
A1: No I dont. A person will burn in hell for not believing IN Christ Jesus, for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and for not having their sins forgiven

Q2:And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God?
A2: The way you use it YES

Q3:If so, would you be willing to explain how and why?
A3: I did for the last 3 pages.

Q4: Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

A4: Did I EVER suggest eating sickly animals? I went through great length to explain NOT TO EAT SICK ANIMALS. You have yet to show me where it says its not Ok to eat clean meat..

Q5: If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God?

A5: To share the Gospel with others. Thats His will one of many. In fact so many you can find it in the 66 books that make up the bible, and I dont see a person condemed to hell for eating a piece of fish, so thats definitely NOT HIS WILL.

You have not been able to tell me wherethe Bible a person is condemned from entering heaven for eating chicken.. This is getting not only old, but stupid. WHy is it stupid you may ask if there is absolutelyu nothing stupid with the Cross.. Well it is stupid tocondemn people for eating CLEAN MEATS plain and simple, and what you , and havebotare preaching here on this forum is contrary to Scripture. I don't care if Sister White "Says.." this or that. You have used it incorrectly, and have taken the place of the Bible. Personally that is beyond treading dangerous waters. Christ has been ursurped in favor of a book that is not in the Bible, and to claim "Well she was as inspired as the writers" does not make her canonized, does not add to the book (which by the way willresult in a curse).. This is where the Seventh-Day Adventist Church gets weird,strange, and just off thewall.. GIVE ME A VERSE WHERE FISHEATING SENDS A PERSON TO HELL.. I want to know if munching on Red Snapper is gonna send my neighbor to hell, show me where eating salmons is going to send me to hell SHOW ME THE MONEY! I am tired of the verbal gymnatics. If you can;t back it up then dont use it as if it were there.

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 12:29 AM

By the way.. you will not go to hell for eating meat. I dont care if youwant to use the "kosher\non koser" angle, I don't care if you want to use the "well in SisterWhites time even the best meat was bad" routine.. or "Diet and helth says" bla.. You cannot prove at all in priciple, in actual Scripture nothing about condemning a person for eating meat Clean meats by the way incase youplan on dragging this out to 9 pages on the finer points of semantics of the english language past and present. You will lose more people instead of winning souls to heaven. I will call a spade a spade..no hair splitting here.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 01:07 AM

Will posted:

quote:

This is where the Seventh-Day Adventist Church gets weird,strange, and just off thewall..

What do you mean by this? [Confused]

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 02:30 AM

Regarding the dangers of eating meat and vegetables, a newspaper I read last week had two articles about "ehec" (its a bacteria I think), one was about cattle who carried it, the other was about a fotball (or soccer in america) tournament where several contestants had been infected. First they thought it came with the water but now it seems the infection carrier was fresh vegetables served during the tournament. One serious disease being sourced both trough meat and vegetables. I also remember reading the same about the e-coli bacteria.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q; Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?

A; What Jesus taught in Matthew. Chapter 18, the parable about the unmerciful servant. Refusing to extend to others the forgiveness and grace recieved from God. Chapter 22, the wedding of the kings son. Refusing to heed the invitation given. Chapter 25, lack of oil (Holy Spirit). Refusing to use what God has given. Not doing good deeds to whomever needs them.

Q; If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God?

A; The will of God. John chapter 6, That all who see Jesus and believe in Him shall have eternal life and that none of these should be lost. Romans chapter 12, that we would not conform to the world but be transformed by the renewal of our thoughts to know Gods will. 1 Thess chapter 4, that we shall become holy, honouring our bodies trough keeping them away from unlawful sex, immorality. 1 Thess chapter 5, being happy, praying at all times, giving thanks to God. 1 Pet chapter 2, doing good things so that noone have anything legitimate to accuse us for.

On a whole it seems that what God says, we humans easily make into rules and with time forget the principles behind what God said. Matt 9:13 seems to be something that keeps reappearing, first with the prophets and then in Jesus preaching. There must be a reason for this.

Q; And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God?

A; As Will has been pointing out, when made into a salvation issue. There is an example in the bible about a good health advice, how it was seen by the people and what its place should be according to Jesus. The example: pharisees and lawyers questioning Jesus on His diciples not washing their hands before they eat, to wich Jesus answered among other things, "its not what goes into the mouth that makes a man unclean". Nothing wrong with the good piece of advice as long as its not elevated to the same heights as Gods commandments.

Q; If so, would you be willing to explain how and why?

A; Everything that a person needs to know in order to be saved is written in the holy Bible. Other things may be good and wholesome but will not and can not replace the clear truths in this word of God. Could Gal 3:15-23 be compared?

Q; Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

A; Ehm, meat from sick animals or animals who died of sickness is not to be eaten. On the other hand noone is trying to argue that it should be. Its easy scoring points by kicking in open doors...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 03:52 AM

Tom and John, that hurt. I thought a personal testimony would help you guys appreciate where I'm coming from. I guess I need to think twice before bearing my soul. Perhaps you didn't intend for your words to wound, but sometimes it's not so much what is said as what is left unsaid. Who can be more guilty than myself? I'm very glad our God is merciful.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 05:04 AM

Will, you sound very passionate about this. I can appreciate the fact you are unwilling to believe God will burn someone in hell simply because they eat the animals permitted in the book of Leviticus. Also, thank you for answering the questions I posted. We will probably never agree on the vegan issue, which is fine, but the way you answered the first question gave me pause.

quote:
Q1: Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?
A1: No I dont. A person will burn in hell for not believing IN Christ Jesus, for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and for not having their sins forgiven

The things you named that disqualifies a person from entering into the joy of the Lord are fundamentally the will of God. If a person refuses to live in harmony with the will of God is he not in essence rejecting his ticket to heaven? Can a person believe in Jesus, accept Him as Saviour, ask forgiveness for sins and not be in harmony with God's will? Well, apparently it is possible to do all these things and still be lost. Here's a thought that seems to speak to this very issue:

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

It would appear that saying and doing are not always synonymous, at least from God's point of view. What do you think? If we refuse to live in harmony with the will of God, that is, obey His laws (i.e., imitate the example of Jesus), will He, in spite of our disobedience, invite us to join Him and His friends to live eternally in heaven and the New Earth? Never mind the diet thing. Is faith, and faith alone, enough to ensure us a place in the kingdom of God? Or, does it require faith AND corresponding works to be saved?

EDITED this post by making bold - Never mind the diet thing.

[ November 07, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 05:32 AM

Mike,
It is interesting you used John15:10, as I do not see a commandment banning the consumptioon of eating chicken,salmon or turkey. Where did you get that idea from?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 05:41 AM

Daryl,
I response to your question about what did I mean. Well here goes:
In our church (Not the church itself, but members) there are people who profess to be sinless, there are people who think that making food on the Sabbath for poor people is violating the Sabbath, there are people who claim that the church is babylon because some people want to use the NIV, and there are people who think that any harmful substancethat enters the body will give you a one way ticket to hell, and if you have long hair as a man you are an abomination to God, and last but definitely not least. People who think that by me eating a slice of pizza that uses mozzarella cheese which is a dairy product, and uses cheese will prevent me or anyone for that matter to go to heaven, and if I eat some fish.. Opps there you go sorry cant go to heaven. You ate fish. Sorry but that is definitely not in the Bible, and I am not putting up with any rhetoric especially when no Bible verses are provided.
That constitutes for me weird, strange, and off the wall. Crazy world we live in, and even crazier times. I don't know about many of you but the God I serve doesn't throw people out for having a chicken wing, or eating..cheese sticks !
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 07:15 AM

Mike, I'm sorry what I said was hurtful. It appeared to me you were asking my opinion, so that's what it is. Perhaps I've judged you incorrectly. I hope so. It does appear to me that you view yourself in the terms Ellen White was describing in the passage I cited. Once again, I hope I'm wrong.

Fortunately, I'm no judge. God, who is infinite in mercy, is the judge.

By the way, I don't begrudge the experience you shares in "bearing your soul." I do not doubt that you have had a genuine conversion experience, or that God has worked wonderfully in your life. That was not what I was referring to.

I see in your theology a great danger in that it makes it possible for one to think that one is not sinning when in fact one is. The pharisee appeared before God and said, "Thank you God that I am not as other men. Especially like this publican." He could not recongnize his need. God can help anyone who recognizes their need, as the publican pointed out, "God be merciful to me a sinner." He walked away justified. God is the God who justifies the ungodly.

The Spirit of Prophesy says regarding the man who prayed, "I believe, Help Thou mine unbelief" that we can never perish while we pray this prayer, never. If we recognize our need for help, the Lord will save us. But if we think we are OK when we're not, then how can the Lord help us?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/08/04 07:39 AM

Will, in my last post I was trying to steer clear of the diet issue. I believe it is safe to say we are never going to agree on that whole question. I agree with Sister White that obeying the ten commandments includes the laws of health, which, in her inspired opinion, means adopting a vegan lifestyle. I realize you don't agree with this application, or interpretation, of her insights and counsel. So, it might be best if we put this behind us, and turn to other concerns. With this in mind, would you care to address the questions I posted above? If not, no big deal.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 08:06 PM

Tom, the reason it hurt was because I was sort of thinking that by sharing my testimony others might rejoice with me, like the lady who looked long and hard for her lost coin. I am just as happy that I have found myself in Jesus as she was about finding her coin. And when you, especially you, because I have grown fond of you, when you doubted my joy and wondered if whether or not my experience isn't more akin to the Pharisee who was blinded with self deception, well, it set me back. But I know you didn’t mean anything hurtful by telling me how it made you feel. I’m just sorry it affected you that way. Believe me, I was hoping for something entirely opposite.

When is it safe to rejoice in the Lord? Is it ever safe to feel happy because we were once lost but now we are found? Can we know now, today, this very moment, that because of Jesus we have eternal life abiding in us, and that we are heaven bound? Is it wrong to express these feelings publicly? Jesus has saved me from so many destructive habits, things and ways I used to be that are no longer the source of my grief and despair, and I am so happy, so very happy, that He has set me free, to the point where it’s hard not to shout it from the mountain tops.

I tend to be a very expressive person, wearing my feelings on my sleeves, and I have been cautioned, on more than a few occasions here on MSDAOL, for being so sensitive. But, to tell you the truth, I cannot help myself, that’s just the way I am, but I’m learning not to let my feelings get in the way. I realize my views on rebirth and perfection have made me very unpopular on this forum, most people have just given up on me, so I can see how sharing my testimony wouldn’t be well received by some. So, I guess I need to be more careful in the future.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 10:27 PM

Mike, I've grown fond of you too. I agree with a lot of what you say, but some of what you write I find deeply troubling. I've thought and prayed a great deal about how to communicate.

Again, I don't doubt that you have had a genuine conversion experience, nor that the Lord has delievered you from destructive habits. My response had/has nothing to do with that, but only with a theological theory which I find very dangerous. That is the idea that it's impossible for someone who is connected to Christ to sin (or at least knowingly sin).

I think this theory is very dangerous. If you think you are connected to Jesus, and think that in such a state you cannot sin, that leads to the very dangerous position of being able to delude yourself that you're not sinning when you are. Inspiration does not teach that one cannot sin if "connected" to Jesus, but that one need not sin. That's an important distinction.

This is also from Christ's Object Lessons, the Two Worshippers chapter:

quote:
No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be, Lord, take my heart; for I cannot give it. It is Thy property. Keep it pure, for I cannot keep it for Thee. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self. Mold me, fashion me, raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere, where the rich current of Thy love can flow through my soul.

It is not only at the beginning of the Christian life that this renunciation of self is to be made. At every advance step heavenward it is to be renewed. All our good works are dependent on a power outside of ourselves. Therefore there needs to be a continual reaching out of the heart after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the soul before Him. Only by constant renunciation of self and dependence on Christ can we walk safely.

Regarding perfection of character, I think that is something which takes place as one is transformed by beholding Christ. Focusing on sin will not acheive this desired result.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/07/04 11:06 PM

Thank you, Tom, for being my friend. I look forward to spending eternity with you in Paradise.

I agree that character development, perfecting Christlike traits of character, is something that happens on a daily basis, that we're not born again fully developed, as if there is no more room left to grow. I believe character perfection starts now and will continue throughout eternity. We will never stop "perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord." 2 Cor 7:1. Perfecting holiness? Yes, that's right, even Jesus perfected holiness as grew from childhood to manhood.

Yes, there is a fine line between truth and error, and there is a risk of deceiving ourselves into thinking we are without fault before the throne of God, when in reality we are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. But believing the truth has always involved a risk. Peter said it is better not to have known the truth than to turn from it later on. In Hebrews we read, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." 10:31.

Believing the truth comes with a serious and heavy responsibility, but it shouldn't stop us from embracing it wholeheartedly. It's a fine line, for sure, but we need not fear it. In Christ we are more than conquerors, which is something we should never forget, something we should never fear. Nevertheless, we must handle it like dynamite, with extreme care and caution, because it will either kill us or save us. There is no middle ground, no neutral territory. The great controversy is a great big battle field, and our hearts and minds are hanging in the balance of victory or defeat - and the choice is ours.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/08/04 08:14 AM

Hi Mike,
If we disobey from doing His will I believe we can be in trouble, but this is something that comes over a period of time.

An example is going door to door and everyone agrees that we shold witness to people and introduce people to Christ. Yet there are many who don't go because they are either timid, afraid, or are unable to. God will not tell them that they are unable to go to heaven. God has given us all gifts and different ones at that.

Faith alone without works (a faith that works) is dead, so it would require Faith and works.. I think hookers, and drug addicts, and the mentally insane should be given the opportunity to study the Bible, and witnessed to,clothed and fed, but there are people at my church even that say "Be careful those people will find out who you are and steal from you", but these people may be serving God in a different capacity. We can;t just sit there complacent alal OnceSaved Always Saved and wait for Jesus to come. He is coming soon, so we need to share the Gospel with others, show them the truth as it is in Christ. I wonder how it will be done when God calls out His people to come out of babylon.
So I beleve because the Bible tells me so that faith & works combined is an important element in our salvation.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/09/04 07:52 AM

Thank you, Will. I thought we both believed the same way about faith and works, but the diet issue sort of made things messy. Of the four disciplines - Bible study, prayer, fellowship and outreach - I agree with you, outreach is sorely neglected. I praise God for the obvious love of souls He has instilled in you. My gift is working with young people in the great outdoors. But I'm not so good with street people. So, I'm really happy about people like you who work well with them. God bless you, and your ministry.

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/08/04 08:32 PM

Hi Mike,
I agree with you there, but the diet thing did make me upset and I think rightly so. However I do realize that in todays market, and the meat that is channeled through there for public consumption is not the best, and can't find scripture that supports the condemntation of a person for eating yogurt, or fish, or poultry, BUT I have found verses that do mention things like "be healthy", so as I search I learn, and as I learn I share.
It is awesome that you do work with youth especially in this day and age where everytihng on television is so candy coated and shiny to look appealing. This does not even include the sexual pressures imposed on them from tv programs, and movies. It is a blessing indeed that The Lord has called you to help them out in this troubling day and age.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Harmony with God - 11/08/04 11:01 PM

Just thought Id point out that not witnessing by going door to door does not mean that the person does not witness. There are many other areas and circumbstances where one can be a witness, possibly even more efficently than when walking door to door. For instance when witnessing to your coworkers whom you can build a trust relationship with.

/Thomas

Posted By: Will

Re: Harmony with God - 11/08/04 11:57 PM

Thats right Thomas. I think that everywhere you are at youare a witness, and whether at work, in the neighborhood, or with friends who are not Christian you are a witness. Good point though [Smile]

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: John H.

Re: Harmony with God - 11/09/04 03:17 AM

Mike, I didn't mean for my comment to be hurtful -- but to repeat, it's not appropriate to compare the Almighty to an abandoned puppy. I won't apologize for saying that, because I firmly believe that it's true. Can you find a better 'word picture' perhaps? I can appreciate the sentiments you were expressing, but can't sit still while seeing the Lord of heaven being demeaned in the process.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/09/04 04:36 AM

Okay, John, I see your point. I'm a big dog lover, and comparing the way God feels when we turn our backs on Him to how an adoring and faithful puppy feels made perfect sense to me. But I can see how it might not sound appropriate to someone else. I thought about using a venomous reptile to illustrate the love of Jesus, but that seemed out of place. Not that God has never likened Himself unto a snake. I guess it's better to let God compare Himself to animals. Instead of a puppy, maybe I should have used a lamb? But I like puppies better than lambs, they're cuter and smarter and don't stink near as bad. Solomon didn't have any problem comparing God's love for us using animals as an example.

John
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Song of Solomon
1:9 I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots.
2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.
4:1 Behold, thou [art] fair, my love; behold, thou [art] fair; thou [hast] doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair [is] as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
4:2 Thy teeth [are] like a flock [of sheep that are even] shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none [is] barren among them.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Harmony with God - 11/27/04 12:42 PM

Mike.

How could a health reform anounce by EGW 130 years ago be of any goodness in this last years of heavy pollution, whether on ground, under water and off ground?

Not only that, with the hi tech investigation and research, we found out that what is said as unclean in the past is now a healthy thing to consume, and what is healthy is unclean now. In the 3rd world countries, where fresh food is sold in the conventional market and Super market without any label of warnings or Health Department inspections marks, how could we know that what we eat is healthy for us, meanwhile all the vegetables sold is full with insecticide, and we eat it every day.

Now, I hear news that drinking tea is a healthy diet, eating chicken wing brought death because it was infected with Flu virus.

So, I think, that what we eat is no longer an issue of salvation. Eating pork now is much healthier than eating chicken wing. And I continue to eat what the OT said about unclean meat because I didn’t see it as something that might hinder me to enter heaven. We are saved from the death for Christ has given us our life back, we are fit for heaven because we have the love of God in our heart, we understood what love is and we are willing to love God and our neighbors.

But what we eat or drink, does it matter? How could I know that what I eat is healthy? How could I know that what I think is healthy, in reality is unclean and the cause of many sickness? How could I know that what I drink would make me sick or would make me healty?

1 Corinthians 10:25.
Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1 Corinthians 10:27.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.
Ephesians 2:14,15
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcille both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

What do you think?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 11/27/04 06:49 PM

James, you raise good points. The world we live in is being turned upside down by disease and disasters. Nothing is safe any more. Living in harmony with God, therefore, requires us to do those things that promote sound mind and body, the best health possible. True, optimum health is not possible any more, but we must exercise common sense using the word of God to guide us. A vegan diet, wherever possible, is clearly the best and safest. The SOP has made this crystal clear. To doubt the testimonies is to flirt with death.

quote:
1 Corinthians 10:25.
Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 10:27.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

These two passages are talking about eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols. Paul's point is that idols do not mnake clean meat unfit for food.

quote:
1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.

You left out the next verse. "For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Everything sanctified, or set apart, by the word of God is good for food. That is, providing it isn't diseased or contaminated.

quote:
Ephesians 2:14,15
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcille both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

The law of God is not our enemy, it is our school teacher. The ordinances Paul is talking about here have to do with the temple services. Now that Jesus is our mediator and high priest in the heavenly sanctuary we have better promises upon which to build our faith.

Living in harmony with God means imitating the holy and righteous example of Jesus, which includes avoiding body destroying practices and adopting the very best lifestyle possible, given our immediate circumstances. If we refuse to obey the counsel of God as outlined in the Bible and the SOP then we are rejecting God Himself - which is not a good state to be in, especially since we are living in the last days.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Harmony with God - 11/27/04 09:45 PM

These two passages are talking about eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols. Paul's point is that idols do not mnake clean meat unfit for food.

Unquote.

Mike.

How do you know that what Paul meant is eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols?

Let’s see the first passage:

Eat whatever is sold in the market! Now, do you think that those Corinthian’s believers originated from pagan believers, are going to buy their meat in the Jewish market? Are they not going to their own market where everything is sold? Did Paul give a clear distinction whether those Corinthian’s believers must go to buy their meat in the Jewish market? Are you sure that those Corinthian’s believers understood that the law of clean and unclean meat stil binds them and exist in its jurisdiction after the cross?

Now, let’s see the 2nd passage:

A Corinthian’s believer was invited to a feast by his pagan neighbor, his daughter birthday for example. What does he expect to find at the table served to him? Clean meats? Does his neighbor knows what he believed? Does he care about his neighbor’s believe and served him clean meat, understanding that his neighbor, who was Christ believers, observe the doctrine of clean and unclean meat? How could he knew that his neighbor, an ex pagan and now is Christ’ believer would and could not eat unclean meat as the Jews does?

I really think, that this pagan neighbor would serve his neighbor, who was a believer anything that was made by his wife, and surely I knew it would be of any kind of mixed clean and unclean meat. Probably a whole pork steak is on his plate, but should he refused this offer, hurting his neighbor’s feeling and pride? Paul’s issue was only about meats offered to idols, but I think, he didn’t made a distinction whether what meat is offered; is it clean or unclean.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Harmony with God - 11/27/04 11:40 PM

As this can be a major topic of its own, the digression to eating clean and unclean meat needs to continue in a different existing topic or by creating a new topic. [Caution]

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Harmony with God - 12/11/04 06:54 PM

It would appear that saying and doing are not always synonymous, at least from God's point of view. What do you think? If we refuse to live in harmony with the will of God, that is, obey His laws (i.e., imitate the example of Jesus), will He, in spite of our disobedience, invite us to join Him and His friends to live eternally in heaven and the New Earth? Never mind the diet thing. Is faith, and faith alone, enough to ensure us a place in the kingdom of God? Or, does it require faith AND corresponding works to be saved?

- - - - - Quoted from Mike post to Will - - - - - -

A serious question.

How could we, who were led by the Spirit do the things that are not in harmony with God’s law, meanwhile all our deeds are fruits of the Spirit.

I think, only the moral law that is written on our hearts, which we are responsible to follow, but we could only do and fulfill it demands through the power of the Spirit.

Does not accepting the vegan diet might close the door of heaven for us? Would it hinder God to invite us to join Him and His friends in heaven and the new earth? Meanwhile these laws are not the moral law, and is not written in our heart.

If this is true, there must be a solid reason to believe it.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Harmony with God - 12/11/04 09:19 PM

James, I hope and pray you get the diet and health issue figured out some day.

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Harmony with God - 12/15/04 11:26 PM

Recently at a Christian (non-SDA) Message Board they were talking about eating ham sandwiches and was there anything wrong with that since Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 "Not that which goes into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out". So below is just a copy and paste of what I wrote there, maybe it will help someone some way when it comes to the issue of Diet:

Isaiah 66:15-17:
"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD."

Being that I am a Seventh Day Adventist, I probably have a different view about the food issue than most everyone here, but here goes...

The Bible positively states that all who eat "swine's flesh", "the mouse" and other unclean things that are an "abomination" will be destroyed with fire at the coming of the Lord. When God says to leave something alone and not eat it, we should by all means obey Him. After all, when Adam and Eve ate a mere piece of forbidden fruit this is what brought sin and death into the world in the first place.

Can we say it doesnt matter when the Word of God plainly shows that it does? God says that men will be destroyed because they "chose that in which I delighted not" Isaiah 66:4.

Many believe that the law of clean and unclean animals originated at Sinai and that it was "for the Jews only" and ended at the cross. But the Bible gives ample evidence that there were designated both clean and unclean animals from the beginning of time. The animals were taken into the ark ..clean animals by "sevens" and unclean by "twos". Revelation 18:2 refers to some birds being unclean just before the second coming of Christ.

The death of Christ has no altering effect on health laws since the Bible says that ALL who break them will be destroyed when Jesus returns (Isaish 66:15-17).

The laws of nature are the laws of nature and they dont discriminate between Jews and Christians... neither do diseases that come from eating pork and other things. Leviticus 3:17 says to eat neither fat nor blood. Recent scientific studies confirm that most heart attacks come from a high cholesterol level in the blood and that the use of "fats" is largely responsible for this high level. It looks like God knows what He is talking about after all.

When God said "Thou shalt not kill" He also meant that we should not kill our own selves by degress, "suicide on the installment plan" is not a real option just because you're a Christian.

"Be not deceived, whatever a man sows he shall reap" Galatians 6:7. Trouble comes when we disregard and ignore God's health laws. If a parent uses drugs for instance, he or she will transmit weaknesses to their children Deuteronomy 12:25. God makes it plain that children and grandchildren (to the fourth generation) pay the price for the folly of parents who disregard God's rules. Ezekiel 11:21 says that God will recompense their way upon their own heads" if a man walks after detestable things and abominations.

1. I Timothy 4:4 says that every creature of God is good and nothing is to be refused"... is this a license to eat and drink whatever you want to?

This Scripture refers to meats that "God hath created to be received with thanksgiving"... but we already know that clean meats are listed in Leviticus chapter 11 and Deut. chapter 14. Verse 5 tells why these animals or foods are acceptable, they are "sanctified" by God's Word, but the Bible also says that God will destroy those who try to "sanctify themselves" while disobeying God and eating unclean foods (Isaiah 66:17).

Matthew 5:11 says "Not that which goes into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out". What does this mean?

The subject in this passage is about not first washing the hands before eating. The focus is not upon eating, but washing. The scribes taught that eating any food without a ceremonial washing defiled the eater. Jesus said ceremonial washings were meaningless. in verse 19 Jesus lists certain evils adulteries, murder, thefts (in other words breaking the ten commandments) are the things that REALLY defile a man (verse 20)

But then some believe that Jesus cleanses all animals in Peter's vision as recorded in Acts 10. No! The subject of this vision is people, not animals. God gave Peter this vision to tell him that Gentiles were not to be regarded as unclean, as the Jews believed. God had instructed Cornelius, a Gentile, to send men to visit Peter.

Peter would've refused to see them, had God not given him this vision because Jewish law forbade entertaining Gentiles (verse 28). Peter said God showed him that he was not to regard any MAN unclean.

So why did God make the hog, then... if not to eat? He made it for the same purpose that He made buzzards- as a scavenger to clean up garbage. It was never intended for food.

What about Romans 14:13,14 "Let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth". "There is nothing unclean of itself". The passage are a discussion of those who eat certain things and they who do not. It does not say that either is right or wrong, it merely says not to pass judgment on each other. Let God be the judge. Verses 14 and 20 refer to foods that were once offered to idols (and were thus ceremonially unclean) -not to the clean and unclean meats of Leviticus chapter 11. The point was that no food is to be regarded as "unclean" just because it has first been offered to idols because an idol "is nothing in the world" 1 Cor. 8:4. But if it offends your conscience or even a brother you should leave it alone.

God ALLOWED certain meats after the flood, but it did not mean that these foods were the ideal diet for man. Genesis1:29;2:16 tells us God gave man a vegetarian diet. "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat".

Seventh Day Adventists who eat a vegetarian diet live on the average of 7 to 10 years longer than the general population. It isnt because they are Seventh Day Adventists, it is because they eat what God originally intended them to eat. In heaven there will be no killing... Revelation 21:4 says there will be no more death. There wont be any killing of animals for food.

3 John:2: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Isaiah 55:2 "Eat that which is good"

1 Corinthians 10:31
"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

God wishes for His people to be physically healthy as well as spiritually healthy. If we can add years to our lives and live healthier lives by eating and drinking healthy foods then we ought to do it. That is so much more years given to us to preach the Gospel to others.

Life is a gift from God, seek to live it as healthily as you can. Seek to live for God's glory... dont seek to find the lowest leavel that you can "get away with" and still manage to be "saved".

Remember Daniel, He and his friends refused to eat the King's food... and they asked to be allowed to eat "pulse" which was a vegetarian diet. It turned out he and his friends were better off physically, mentally and spiritually. (see Daniel chapter 1)They were able to think more clearly, God gave them understanding in visions, and in prophecies.

God does allow certain foods and He also condemns the use of certain foods. We ought to seek for the highest level... to glorify God, because after all our bodies are "not our own" and were meant to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor:6:20: "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Go back to the original diet for man and it will greatly decrease health problems. You will be doing what God originally intended. Not to "gain merit", but because you love God and love your fellow man... and because you love yourself who God created. Stop asking what you can "get away with" and still perhaps get to heaven... and start living for the glory of God. Every time you abuse your body you take time off your life which you could've used to spread the Gospel message and help others... and you diminish the quality of the life that you do have left.

Posted By: Doug Meister

Re: Harmony with God - 12/16/04 11:00 AM

.

[ January 01, 2005, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Harmony with God - 12/16/04 03:05 PM

I forgot to add the pages I gave them for references:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/35/1728_84376

http://www.thefountainoflife.ws/cancer/nocancer.htm

http://www.llu.edu/info/legacy/LegacyC.html

http://news.adventist.org/data/2001/06/0995375716/index.html.en

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Harmony with God - 12/16/04 03:11 PM

Hi Doug,

I like some of the fake vegetarian stuff too, like Cedar Lake and La Loma and Worthington Foods. Some of them you can can take any recipe you'd use for meat and just substitute.

I think you can eat stuff like macaroni and cheese once in a while ... most of the time you could have whole grain macaroni and they have lots of recipes for "cheeseless cheese" you can make that doesnt have all the fat... they even have Cedar Lake cheeseless sauce that is good.

Its best to slowly change over your diet and substitute good stuff for the bad, as you learn different methods of cooking, different recipes and so on.

Hold on, I will try and find a quote for you that I have tried to keep in mind by James White..

Claudia

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Harmony with God - 12/16/04 03:19 PM

Well growl, I cant find it right now, but anyway it was a quote by James White, its in Councils on Diet and Foods and it says something like that we should make sure to change our diet but to do it one thing at a time when we get a good victory over one thing... then move onto the next.

Some people go too far and just think they should get rid of this and that "bad" thing and they dont take care to add the good dietary things their body needs.

Eccl:10:17: Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!

[Tasty]

Posted By: Claudia Thompson

Re: Harmony with God - 12/16/04 11:28 PM

Doug,

I typed in the right key words into that online Ellen White writings site and found the quotation I was looking for... here it is (sorry its in all capital letters)

Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 498, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Teaching Health Principles
WHILE TOBACCO, TEA, AND COFFEE MAY BE LEFT AT ONCE, ONE AT A TIME, HOWEVER, BY THOSE WHO ARE SO UNFORTUNATE AS TO BE SLAVES TO ALL, CHANGES IN DIET SHOULD BE MADE CAREFULLY, ONE AT A TIME. AND WHILE SHE WOULD SAY THIS TO THOSE WHO ARE IN DANGER OF MAKING CHANGES TOO RAPIDLY, SHE WOULD ALSO SAY TO THE TARDY, BE SURE AND NOT FORGET TO CHANGE. THE PLAINEST FACTS POSSIBLE DEMAND A CHANGE FROM THE COMMON HABITS OF LIFE, BUT LET THEM NOT BE MADE SO FAST AS TO INJURE THE HEALTH AND CONSTITUTION.

In my opinion, Doug, people should be careful both ways.. they should be sure to change their diet but also not make changes too fast and/or make changes without bothering to supply an adequate substitute so as to give your body the nutrition it really needs. Thats why sometimes you will be vegetarians or "health conscious" people who end up looking like they are death warmed-over or like they just came out of a concentration camp... they dont take care to eat right stuff, instead they just focus on not eating wrong stuff.

But anyway, I think you should endeavor not to eat fried foods... but instead learn how to wean yourself away from that.. along with other things that are not so good for you.

Like, you can learn to bake french fries (french baked, is what I guess you'd then call them [Smile]

Bake them and then make some kind of dip that has all good stuff in it, to dip the fries in... and maybe add a little spicey stuff onto them... to give them more flavor... something you like... then later find a herb mixture you can put over them or whatever. (because the Spirit of Prophecy says that grease and spices are not so good for you). Have you ever seen that stuff at the store, its like a Shake and Bake but only you use diced potatoes? I like to get that and slice up potatoes like french fries and put them in the bag and shake them and it coats them with the herb mixture... then spay some of that Pam Cooking spray, the olive oil flavor onto a baking sheet and a little onto the fries and bake them, then dip them in catsup when they're all done cooking. You can learn to do substitutions like that with all kinds of things and just kind of learn new habits. You dont really have to "give up" anything of real value. But just change things gradually and dont try to go from zero to a hundred miles an hour in one day.

You wouldnt pour grease down your sink every day and expect it not to get clogged up after awhile, right? Well just think what that would do to your body. Its not a legalistic thing, its just that God loves us and wants us to be healthy and happy and to feel good and live longer and so on.

Well anyway, sorry I went on so long about this, I saw where somebody said on here that they should forget about the diet thing and go onto another topic.

Wait, I want to say something else first though while I'm at it. This thread is about Harmony with God. In Christ's Object Lessons it says in the "Wedding Garment" chapter that we need to have one mind with God and be of one will with Him. Well remember when the Disciples said at the woman at the well story that He needed to stop and eat something? Jesus said "My meat is to do the will of My Father in Heaven". It's like Jesus was saying that doing the will of His Father was number one priority and everything else was subjected to that one thing. His "food" wasnt most important, it was doing God's will that was important.

And remember how God made His people eat manna in the wilderness? Deut:8:3: "And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

Again, its like God was teaching His people that they had the wrong priorities. Eccl:10:17: "Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!" Everything we do is supposed to be ffor God's glory, not for our own satisfaction. You eat in order to strengthen your body that God gave you, so that you can be in top condition to serve God.

Mt:6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

See, like, a Christian can start setting out to get right of this and that sin, and maybe even accomplish it by sheer will power, yet not be with God at all. We have to truly love God first and then do everything because of that... even when it comes to our diet. Or esle its really spiritually useless.

Mt:6:22: The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

And then when you have the right outlook on things, giving up this and that thing that is "bad" doesnt seem to you to be something you have to force yourself to do or that you hate to do. Its more like you just dont really want to do that thing anymore because you view it as something that's hindering your goal. People should take time to read "Acts of the Apostles" by Ellen White, the chapter on "Called to reach a Higher Standard" ... the chapter about setting aside any and every thing that keeps you from winning your goal. Like the Apostle Paul said. Laying aside every besetting sin... that weighs you down, so to speak. http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/aa/aa30.html

Claudia

[ December 16, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Claudia Thompson ]

Posted By: Doug Meister

Re: Harmony with God - 12/17/04 11:20 AM

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]