Why did Jesus have to die?
Posted By: Tom
Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/03/05 08:01 PM
This seems particularly appropriate (I was going to say "appripros," but I don't know how to spell it) considering our new quarterly. Another way of asking the same question is "What is it that Christ's death accomplishes?"
The cross will be the study of eternity.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/04/05 06:39 PM
I'll start things going.
Christ had to die for our reconciliation, both on a corporate (or legal) and individual basis.
His death accomplishes a legal reconciliation for every person who has ever lived or will live, and an individual reconciliation for all those who respond to God's grace given to us in Christ.
How does Christ's death accomplish a corporate (or legal) reconcilation? The following statement from the Spirit of Prophesy explains:
quote:
By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.
This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. Whatever is rendered back to Him is only His
own who has given it.
Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 21, 22)
The same idea is expressed more succinctly here:
quote:
He (Christ) took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God. (1SM 343)
and here:
quote:
Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. (DA 660)
To the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life. What a thought!
This idea can be found in Scripture in the following places: Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; Isa. 44:22; 1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10
John tells us in several places that Christ is the Savior of the world. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us in several places that Christ saved the world.
OK, the above deals with the corporate or legal aspect of reconciliation. Now for the individual part. How does the death of Christ invidually reconcile us to God?
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/05/05 06:24 AM
Tom,
I'm going to have a hard time keeping my mouth shut in Sabbath School class this quarter. There are a number of reasons to believe that the sacrifice Jesus made and the salvation He offers were at His birth and through His life rather than on the cross. In the Garden of Gethsemane, for instance, Jesus told God in effect, "I've finished the work You gave me to do, Lord. Now let me get some rest before I return to You" John 17:4 (in fact the same thought runs throughout Jesus' prayer in John 14 to 17). Notice also in the parable of the tenants in Matthew 21:33-41 that the "son" was killed, not to save anyone, but because the tenants (wicked husbandmen) were wicked.
There is another paradigm of salvation that makes a lot more sense to me. That is a cause/effect model rather than the currently accepted crime/punishment model. In the cause/effect model, there are no "punishments," only effects or consequences. And Jesus came to heal us from those consequences and teach us how to avoid doing things which bring on adverse effects.
I realize this paradigm has not been explored much, but I feel this is the message God was trying to convey through Jones and Wagonner in 1888 and by Ellen White in subsequent years where she condemned the "legalistic" model and promoted what is now referred to as "salvation by faith." It seems to me that it might be well to explore this alternate model in conjunction with the Sabbath School lessons this quarter.
RL
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/06/05 07:26 AM
Tom, I agree that Jesus’ life and death makes temporal and eternal life possible and available to everyone. Temporal life is unconditional. It’s a reality for everyone, no questions asked, no qualifications required. But eternal life is conditional. Only those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, who are born again, and who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, will inherit the kingdom of God. However, there’s always Romans 2:13-15.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Boblee, if Jesus was merely seeking rest and refuge, why did He fear the cup, why did He pray for another way? The life of Jesus was as necessary as was His death, but His life does not atone for our sins, His death does. If Jesus had returned to heaven, without first laying down and taking up His life, no one could be saved. Why? Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
God is in control, not the law of cause and effect. God manages the consequences of our choices. He tailor-makes them, by sometimes allowing natural law to run its course, but most often by manipulating things to serve His perfect plan. There was nothing natural about Jesus drinking the cup of God’s wrath. Also, there was nothing natural about the death of Jesus. He didn’t die in the same way we die. No, He laid down His own life.
It is true, Jesus finished one aspect of His mission before He entered Gethsemane. He lived a perfect life, which He credits to our account the moment we are born again. But on the cross He finished the second aspect of His mission. When Jesus entered Gethsemane He began experiencing the perfect death, the second death, which gives Him the legal right to pardon us, and to empower us to live in harmony with the precepts and principles of His perfect law of love.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/05/05 08:33 PM
Boblee, I agree that the crime/punishment model is flawed, given how most people understand it, and the cause/effect model is a much better way of looking at things. However, Christ's death is a crucial part of that model, I believe. Christ's life shows us God's character, and what it means to live according to the principles of God's governement, which is love. Christ's death shows us what the results of giving one's self up to sin is. This is a very important lesson for us to understand. When we see sin as the ugly thing it is, that will motivate us fight against it.
quote:
Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. (Education 263)
The cross is necessary, among other reasons, for us to see the pain which sin causes God. God has always been aware of what a terrible thing sin is, of course, but we are not aware of that fact, and the cross is what may open our eyes to see it as God sees it.
There are many other lessons the cross teaches us, which I hope we will get into during this thread.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/05/05 08:39 PM
Mike, than you for your response.
I'm having some trouble understanding what you're saying. For one thing, I don't know what you mean by the word "natural." I've asked you in the past to use a different word. Please do. It's a vague word, at least to me. It could mean "natural" as in "natural law," which phrase you do use, but in a different way than it is normally used. It could also mean "natural" as in "normal," that is, "what one would expect". "Natural law" implies that God is not involved, which no one here suggests is the case.
When you say that Christ died to give God the legal right to pardon us, who gave God that right? Who is the legal authority over God?
Peter says that Christ bore our sins in His body, to "bring us to God." How does Christ's bearing our sin bring us to God?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/05/05 10:20 PM
Tom, we've pretty much gone over this territory before, and have agreed to disagree. I believe the main reason Jesus had to taste death on our behalf is because without it God will not and cannot 1) justify forgiving us, 2) empower us to live without sinning, and 3) grant us eternal life in the New Earth.
Who or what is the legal authority over God? The truth, the law, which God Himself established. He will do nothing contrary to the truth or to His law. I believe that the law of cause and effect answers to God. That is, God manages the consequences of our choices. And, as you know, I also believe the law of sin and death is based on a crime and punishment motif. In other words, before destroying sin and sinners in a literal lake of fire, God punishes them according to their wicked words and works. He doesn't make them vanish without vengeance.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/05/05 11:15 PM
Mike: Tom, we've pretty much gone over this territory before, and have agreed to disagree.
Tom: With what? That is, what are you disagreeing with?
Mike: I believe the main reason Jesus had to taste death on our behalf is because without it God will not and cannot 1) justify forgiving us, 2) empower us to live without sinning, and 3) grant us eternal life in the New Earth.
Tom: I agree with these statements, although I imagine they may mean something different to each of us. I would say God could not justify forgiving us because, apart from the cross which transforms our characters, "forgiving" sin would be tantamount to "overlooking" it, which would do no good. The deadly effects of sin, which is selfishness at its core, would remain. God needs some way to cure us of our selfishness, which causes death.
Regarding 2), I agree completely that Christ's death empowers us to have victory over sin. How does it do this? I'll wait for your thoughts on this before sharing my thoughts on this. I think this is a very important question to consider.
Regardinge 3), I agree as well. To know God is life eternal (John 17:3 I think). It is through Christ, and particular by His cross, that we know God.
Mike: Who or what is the legal authority over God? The truth, the law, which God Himself established. He will do nothing contrary to the truth or to His law.
Tom: But the law is a transcript of His character, right? So to say that God will do nothing contrary to the truth or His law is tantamount to saying that He will do nothing against His own character. That's certainly true. But there's no need for a sacrifice to "enable" God not to act contrary to His own character. He doesn't act contrary to His own character because He is God; He never changes.
Mike: I believe that the law of cause and effect answers to God. That is, God manages the consequences of our choices.
Tom: Let's say I choose to jump off a building. Does God "make" me fall and this the ground? Let's say I choose to smoke. Does God "smite" me with cancer? Or is falling the result of gravity, and lung cancer the result of smoking?
Is the only reason sin is bad because God doesn't like it?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/06/05 03:30 AM
1. Yeah, I disagree with you, if that’s the way you prefer I state it.
2. I do not believe “selfishness” causes death. You already know what I believe causes the first death and the second death. I disagree with you.
3. I don’t believe Jesus’ death empowers us to imitate His example, the Holy Spirit is the One who makes it possible. The perfect life and death of Jesus is what gives the Holy Spirit the right to empower us to obey.
4. Yes, the law is a transcript of His character, but not the other way around. That is, His character is not a transcript of the law. The two are similar, not one and the same. The one is the substance, the other a shadow. God established the law of sin and death, which demands punishment and death for sin. Death is not the result of sinning or being selfish. I disagree with you.
5. The law of cause and effect answers to God. We make the choices, but God manages the consequences, He tailors them according to His perfect plan. Sometimes He allows natural law (i.e., gravity and cancer) to run its course, but more often than not, He tweaks it to serve a higher purpose, His perfect plan. For example, Daniel’s dudes and Neb’s hot furnace.
6. And, as you know, I also believe the law of sin and death is based on a crime and punishment motif. In other words, before destroying sin and sinners in a literal lake of fire, God punishes them according to their wicked words and works. He doesn't make them vanish without first satisfying His thirst for vengeance. See Deut 32, and many others.
7. Is the only reason sin is bad because God doesn't like it? No, God hates sin because it’s bad.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/06/05 07:41 AM
1. Yeah, I disagree with you, if that’s the way you prefer I state it.
Tom: The question I posed on this thread was why did Jesus have to die. I started out talking about how Christ accomplished a corporate reconcilation for the human race, and quoted quite a bit from the Spirit of Prophesy. You said you disagreed with me. I asked what you were disagreeing with. I still don't know what you were disagreeing with (I'm talking from the point of time that you made the statement you were disagreeing with me -- not subsequent points that have emerged since then).
2. I do not believe “selfishness” causes death. You already know what I believe causes the first death and the second death. I disagree with you.
Tom: I guess so. I think selfishness is inherently suicidal. It causes one to separate from God, who is the source of life. Apart from God, we die.
quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.
3. I don’t believe Jesus’ death empowers us to imitate His example, the Holy Spirit is the One who makes it possible. The perfect life and death of Jesus is what gives the Holy Spirit the right to empower us to obey.
Tom: Do you see the Jesus' death has any other function from the standpoint of enabling us to lie holy lives other than a legal one? (the legal aspect giving the Holy Spirit the legal right to empower us to obey) I guess another question that comes to mind is what is it that the Holy Spirit does to empower us to obey. That is, what does the empowering consist of?
4. Yes, the law is a transcript of His character, but not the other way around. That is, His character is not a transcript of the law. The two are similar, not one and the same. The one is the substance, the other a shadow. God established the law of sin and death, which demands punishment and death for sin. Death is not the result of sinning or being selfish. I disagree with you.
Tom: I know you disagree with me, although I don't know why. It's very logical and agrees with inspiration to say that sin results in death. Even the why; God is the source of life. When one cuts oneself off from the source of life, one dies. That's logical, isn't it? Plus it's what's written (quoted above).
On the law comment, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You keep saying that Christ died to give God the "legal right" to forgive us. I assert that God always had the "legal right" to forgive us. I say that God does not forgive us apart from Christ's dying because that forgiveness would not be effective apart from His death.
I asked for clarification of what it meant to say that God had the "legal right" to forgive, asking to whom did He obtain the "legal right" from. You said He obtained it from His law. I pointed out that the law is but a transcript of His character. The way you are phrasing things sounds as if you are making God subservient to His law.
I still don't know what you mean by saying that God obtained the "legal right" to forgive us. Who gave Him that right?
Again, I would say God is sovereign, and as such has in His very being, by nature of who He is, the "legal right" to do as He pleases. Indeed, Romans 9 makes that point clear. He chooses to forgive those who have faith in Jesus.
5. The law of cause and effect answers to God. We make the choices, but God manages the consequences, He tailors them according to His perfect plan. Sometimes He allows natural law (i.e., gravity and cancer) to run its course, but more often than not, He tweaks it to serve a higher purpose, His perfect plan. For example, Daniel’s dudes and Neb’s hot furnace.
Tom: I don't know what the point of this comment is, so I'll refrain from commenting.
6. And, as you know, I also believe the law of sin and death is based on a crime and punishment motif. In other words, before destroying sin and sinners in a literal lake of fire, God punishes them according to their wicked words and works. He doesn't make them vanish without first satisfying His thirst for vengeance. See Deut 32, and many others.
Tom: "Satisfying His thirst for vengeance." Yowie! This makes me curious as to what you think God is like. You perceive God as having "a thirst for vengeance"? Is He like the pagan deities that one must sacrifice virgins to to appease their wrath?
7. Is the only reason sin is bad because God doesn't like it? No, God hates sin because it’s bad.
Tom: Well I'm glad we found something to agree on. Yes, God hates sin because it is bad. It is by its very nature bad. It is bad because it separates one from God, the source of life, and as such its inevitable consequence is suffering, misery and death. This is why God does not want us to do it, because He loves us.
That sin is bad is one of the things I hoped this thread would lead to a discussion of. It is the cross that shows sin to be the hideous thing that it is. As Christ became sin for us, that is, as our sins entered into His thought, He became estranged from God and felt as if God had abandoned Him. He felt the mental anguish the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads. It was this mental anguish that led to His heart being broken. So great was this mental anguish, He scaresely felt His physical pain.
When He perceive Christ's suffering, and recognize it was due to sin, it can help us see sin for what it is, and hopefully lead us to hate it as God does.
quote:
Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. (Education 263)
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/06/05 07:56 AM
Ughhh...
"He doesn't make them vanish without first satisfying His thirst for vengeance." Mike
(Yes: I know. Bible words use the term vengeange. However It also says a sword will come out of His mouth. Also the saints can't all fit "Under the altar" when crying for vengeance {Especially if they are asleep, too})
Gotta read with both eyes fully "eye-salved".)
A torturing blood-thirsty God is what you want us to become "conformed to His image"?? Not me! Not that image...that sounds more like Ol' Scratch, to me.
If we are to "be like Him, as we will see Him as He is", than you may be in for a surprisingly shock on That Day!
Perhaps that's why one can see the tsunami as God's "thirst for blood"...hmmmm. Perhaps that is where the idea of death stopping sinners, killing stopping wars, force used to counter threats, etc. If we see God like that, sooner or later we become like that.
Just as the Protestant Swiss reformers soon took to burning heretics, and using the sword to kill their enemies.
You become, sooner or later,what you admire in God. Therefore a false concept could have eternal consequences.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/07/05 07:34 AM
1. The word natural. That’s one of the things we disagree about. You believe sinners die when they are exposed to the glory of God. I believe they die when God rains fire down upon them.
2. You believe sinners die when they are exposed to the absence of God. I believe they die when God rains fire down upon them.
3. Yes, of course, there are many wonderful things that Jesus’ death accomplishes. We cannot grasp all of them right now. In fact, even eternity isn’t long enough to totally get it. There comes a point when Jesus’ death motivates us to hate sin enough, to love Him enough, that we would rather sweat blood, even die, than to knowingly sin. Of course, this kind of intensity increases over time. But this insight should not overshadow the fact Jesus’ death was necessary to satisfy the death penalty for sin.
4. Yes, sin results in death. Why? Because God will rain fire down upon sinners. That’s the penalty for refusing to abide in Jesus, a penalty established by law and based on the holy, just and loving character of God. Or, according to your idea, death is the result of sin because God pulls the plug. Either way, they die because of something God does to them. And, yes, He does it because they are worthy, not because He is arbitrary or vengeful.
Yes, God has always possessed the legal right to forgive us. Why? Because Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before we were created. The legal right to forgive us is based on the eternal death of Jesus. God cannot forgive us, apart from the death of Jesus, because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
Why? Because that’s the way God set it up. The death penalty is the wages of sin, and God is the One responsible for punishing and destroying sin and sinners in the lake of fire. Is God “subservient” to His own law? Yes, of course. However, I think a better way to express it is that God is true to Himself. Who gave God the legal right to forgive us? God did. The law is the foundation of His authority, and the standard for dealing with the sin problem.
5. The point? God is not “subservient” to the laws of nature. He has the right to alter the natural consequences of our choices. And this God does with wonderful regularity. But you seem to be implying the consequences of our choices always obey the laws of nature. But what about Daniel’s companions and the fiery furnace? They didn’t succumb to natural law.
6. Does the expression “satisfy His thirst for vengeance” sound unChristlike? Listen to what an angel said about it. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased.” EW 51 and 218 and 1SG 113. Sister White herself made a similar statement in 1SG 193. “Then the wrath of God will be appeased.” God’s desire to avenge the forsaken blood of Jesus is, indeed, a strange act, but an act nonetheless.
7. No, I disagree. It is not the very nature of sin to separate us from God, the source of life. Satan was more than willing to help God make amendments to His law, and to rule as His co-regent. But instead there was war in heaven and Satan was cast out, separated forcibly from the heaven, from the presence of God. The same thing happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned. They were cast out, driven forcibly from the Garden of Eden, from the presence of God. Sin forces God to separate sinners from Himself. Yes, sinners would soon grow tired of living around “straight-laced, narrow minded people”, if admitted into the New Earth, and would choose to relocate. But this is a far different scenario than your idea suggests, namely, that they would die.
8. Amen! The blood of Jesus should motivate us to hate sin and to love righteousness. To this end, I pray daily, without ceasing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/06/05 08:00 PM
Ikan, please hear what the prophet wrote about the wrath and vengeance of an offended God:
5T 211
Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}
EW 36
Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man, and God will keep silence no longer, but pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His truth. {EW 36.1}
FW 33
Men may make what excuse they please for their rejection of God's law; but no excuse will be accepted in the day of judgment. Those who are contending with God and strengthening their guilty souls in transgression must very soon meet the Great Lawgiver over His broken law. {FW 33.2}
The day of God's vengeance cometh--the day of the fierceness of His wrath. Who will abide the day of His coming? Men have hardened their hearts against the Spirit of God, but the arrows of His wrath will pierce where the arrows of conviction could not. God will not far hence arise to deal with the sinner. {FW 33.3}
PP 138, 139
Abraham had seen in his guests only three tired wayfarers, little thinking that among them was One whom he might worship without sin. But the true character of the heavenly messengers was now revealed. Though they were on their way as ministers of wrath, yet to Abraham, the man of faith, they spoke first of blessings. Though God is strict to mark iniquity and to punish transgression, He takes no delight in vengeance. The work of destruction is a "strange work" to Him who is infinite in love. {PP 138.4}
1SM 313
The love of a holy God is an amazing principle, which can stir the universe in our behalf during the hours of our probation and trial. But after the season of our probation, if we are found transgressors of God's law, the God of love will be found a minister of vengeance. God makes no compromise with sin. The disobedient will be punished. {1SM 313.1}
2BC 1005
God is slow to anger. He gave the wicked nations a time of probation that they might become acquainted with Him and His character. According to the light given was their condemnation for refusing to receive the light and choosing their own ways rather than God's ways. God gave the reason why He did not at once dispossess the Canaanites. The iniquity of the Amorites was not full. Through their iniquity they were gradually bringing themselves to the point where God's forbearance could no longer be exercised and they would be exterminated. Until the point was reached and their iniquity was full, the vengeance of God would be delayed. All nations had a period of probation. Those who made void God's law would advance from one degree of wickedness to another. Children would inherit the rebellious spirit of their parents and do worse than their fathers before them until God's wrath would fall upon them. The punishment was not less because deferred (MS 58, 1900). {2BC 1005.6}
2T 454
He has sold himself to work wickedness. What will be the wages of such a man? The indignation and wrath of God will punish him for sin. The vengeance of God will be aroused against all those whose lustful passions have been concealed under a ministerial cloak. {2T 454.2}
5T 207, 208
Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary to put on garments of vengeance and pour out His wrath in judgments upon those who have not responded to the light God has given them. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Instead of being softened by the patience and long forbearance that the Lord has exercised toward them, those who fear not God and love not the truth strengthen their hearts in their evil course. But there are limits even to the forbearance of God, and many are exceeding these boundaries. They have overrun the limits of grace, and therefore God must interfere and vindicate His own honor. {5T 207.4}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/07/05 08:59 AM
Mike, you have what appears to me to be a blood-thirsty view of God. Is this how you see God? Or am I misreading your intent? Do you see Jesus as blood-thirsty as well? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but these are the words you seem to be using.
You seem only able to see the quotes that talk about God reigning fire from heaven, but the quotes which say that the glory of God destroys the wicked, or that the wicked are destroyed because they cut themselves off from God who is the source of life you completely ignore. Why is that?
Mike: 5. The point? God is not “subservient” to the laws of nature. He has the right to alter the natural consequences of our choices. And this God does with wonderful regularity. But you seem to be implying the consequences of our choices always obey the laws of nature. But what about Daniel’s companions and the fiery furnace? They didn’t succumb to natural law.
Tom: Of course God is not subservient to the laws of nature. Why would you think that based on anything I wrote? I have said nothing about the laws of nature. In fact, I have asked you to refrain from using the word "naturally" for the very purpose of avoiding any such ambiguity of such. Again, what did I write that has prompted you to write what you have.
What I have written is that sin prompts us to act selfishly, to cut ourselves off from God, which is suicidal. I have written that the fact that death is the consequence of sin is not an arbitrary act of power of God, but due to the very nature of sin itself. Selfishness is not a viable principle. It must lead to death. The death would have occured immediately if God had not intervened by His grace. (FW 21, 22)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/08/05 05:34 AM
Tom, I do not look at the Scriptures describing the wrath and vengeance of God as blood-thirsty. I just accept them as is, that it is a strange act of God. I’m not ignoring anything. I just interpret them differently than you do. You mentioned the laws of gravity and cancer awhile ago, that’s why I said God isn’t obliged to obey them, even if we fall off a cliff or get cancer.
Why did Jesus have to die? Because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Your view seems to understate, if not outright undermine, this answer. There are other reasons, but they are actually results (i.e., His death motivates us to hate sin and to love righteousness). God demands punishment and death for sin, and if Jesus had not stepped in on our behalf, the human race would not have survived the punishment and death of Adam and Eve.
Why does God demand punishment and death for sin? Because, in His omniscience, He understands all things and knows what is holy, just and good. The floods, the fires, the quakes, the epidemics, and the many other ways God has punished and killed sinners since the beginning of time, all speak to the fairness of God’s end time, strange act, the punishment and destruction of sin and sinners in a literal lake of fire and brimstone. The wrath of God is love. There’s nothing arbitrary or capricious about it.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Why did Jesus have to die? - 01/09/05 01:39 AM
Since this has been referenced to the Sabbath School study for this quarter, I have moved this topic in the
Adult Sabbath School forum.
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