Mike, one reason we fail, I think, is because we don’t believe it enough to claim the promise and put for the effort. Saying no to sin DOES require some effort on our part!
Jeff
Posted By: debbie
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/28/05 01:37 AM
Often it just takes a decision that you would rather honor God than sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 07:28 AM
Okay, but if resisting temptation simply requires the appropriate amount of effort on our part, assuming, of course, that our ability to do so is supplied by the Holy Spirit, then why is it necessary for God to regulate the intensity of temptation? That is, why must He ensure it isn't more than He can empower us to resist? The promise is, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Phil 4:13. "Nothing shall be impossible unto you." Mat 17:20. "For with God nothing shall be impossible." Luke 1:37. Do you see what I mean?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 05:18 AM
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:
God is not doing anything to the temptation to regulate it. He is offering grace sufficient to overcome it whatever it is. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. This is relevant to those that rely upon God for victory; he will not let them down, but will give them whatever is needed for victory.
If sin has power over one, it is because of failure to rely upon God for grace to overcome it.
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 06:09 AM
Greetings Brother Mike,
We are learning to completely learn to be void of self and to become soley dependant on God. We each have a journey on the narrow path when we accept Christ Jesus as our Savior. God will allow trials and temptations so that we may learn to stand up before the time of trouble that such has never seen before comes along. We are in the Lord's army and we have much to learn in a very short time. quote:
What is temptation? It is the means by which those who claim to be the children of God are tested and tried. We read that God tempted Abraham, that He tempted the children of Israel. This means that He permitted circumstances to occur to test their faith and lead them to look to Him for help. God permits temptation to come to His people today that they may realize that He is their helper. If they draw nigh to Him when they are tempted, He strengthens them to meet the temptation. . . .
Temptations will pour in upon us, for by them we are to be tried during our probation. This is the proving of God, the revelation of our own hearts. There is no sin in having temptation, but sin comes in when temptation is yielded to. . . . Heavenly Places 251.2,3.
quote:
Each one has his own battles to fight, his own Christian experience to gain, independent in some respects from any other soul; and God has lessons for each to gain for himself that no other one can gain for him. . . . Our heavenly Father measures and weighs every trial before He permits it to come upon the believer. He considers the circumstances and the strength of the one who is to stand under the proving and test of God, and He never permits the temptations to be greater than the capacity of resistance. If the soul is overborne, the person overpowered, this can never be charged to God, ... but the one tempted was not vigilant and prayerful and did not appropriate by faith the provisions God had abundantly in store for him. Christ never failed a believer in His hour of combat. The believer must claim the promise and meet the foe in the name of the Lord.... Our Higher Calling, 323.2.
Your questions:
quote:
"then why do so many of us fail so often, and so easily? Is it really, truly possible to be successful every time we are tempted? Or, is this promise some kind of sick joke?"
Unfortunately not all will accept truth to live in them. Many will call on His name only.
Yes, it is truly possible to utterly and completely die self when we are tempted. And no, none of God's promises are ever a joke.
quote:
Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. Acts of the Apostles, 482.2
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: John H.
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 06:57 AM
quote:
Is it really, truly possible to be successful every time we are tempted? Or, is this promise some kind of sick joke?
That's a pretty bad choice of words, Mike. God doesn't engage in "sick jokes."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 08:14 AM
John, if the promise is true then it's not a sick joke. But if the promise depends, in part, on our efforts to resist, then the promise is no better than our part of the equation, which makes the promise tenuous - doesn't it?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 08:18 AM
Does God and Satan work together to tempt us in such a way that it helps us grow as Christians? What's in it for the Devil? Besides, aren't we supposed to pray, "Lead us not into temptation"?
Posted By: John H.
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 05:58 PM
quote:
John, if the promise is true then it's not a sick joke. But if the promise depends, in part, on our efforts to resist, then the promise is no better than our part of the equation, which makes the promise tenuous - doesn't it?
Wow, this is getting worse and worse! First you imply that God might make sick jokes, now you imply that God's promise might not be true, i.e. that He might be a liar. That's dangerous ground to be treading, Mike."It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional."
{1SM 67.8}
He never has promised to wind us up like toy soldiers and send us through life, impervious to sin and temptation to sin, with us having no part to play, no choice in the matter.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 06:16 PM
Mike,
This is how I see this promise: all of us are different from one another, therefore a temptation that you are able to bear can be irresistible to me. Therefore, God will not permit that any of us are tempted above that we are able. This means that by depending on God we are able to overcome all temptations that come our path.
But why do we sometimes find a temptation irresistible? Isn't it because our dependence on God sometimes wavers? But, as we learn more and more to depend on Him, don't you find that some temptations you considered irresistible in the past can now be resisted?
"'His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue' (2 Peter 1:3). None of us need excuse our hasty temper, our misshapen characters, our selfishness, envy, jealousy, or any impurity of soul, body, or spirit. . . . {AG 235.3}
"We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}
"As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. . . . In Him there is inexhaustible fullness. . . ." {AG 235.5}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 06:20 PM
John, it was God who said, "Come now, let us reason together." It seems quite evident that you believe God's promises are true, and yet you also believe they are conditional. What's so conditional about God promising He will not allow the Devil to tempt us beyond His ability to empower us to resist? What does this promise have to do with human effort?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 06:35 PM
Rosangela, great quotes. Thank you. Yeah, it makes perfect sense that God fulfills His promises in and through us IF we 1) know about them, 2) understand them, and 3) believe them. But even still we fail so often! Why? Are there any promises that indicate we will eventually cease failing? What about this promise:
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
When is this promise supposed to come true? Can it be true now? Or, is it only true after we live the rest of our time sinning less and less often? If so, then why does it imply the opposite? Why does it say we can live the rest our time doing the will of God instead of sinning?
Also, I am reposting this question:
quote:
Does God and Satan work together to tempt us in such a way that it helps us grow as Christians? What's in it for the Devil? Besides, aren't we supposed to pray, "Lead us not into temptation"?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/29/05 10:02 PM
Mike,
The way you are approaching this topic is causing people, such as John, to question where you are coming from, especially here in a public forum setting, therefore, I think it would be wise for you to explain why you are coming across, what seems to be, as a devil's advocate?
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 12:29 AM
I think it would be good to consider the story of Job. God allowed him to be tempted, but he stood fast. Pastor Batchelor said in one of the Prophecy coed meetings "is your Devil stronger than your God?" Meaning, Is the Devil's power to tempt you grater than God's power to help you? Perhaps the main point is we have to reach out an accept God's promisis.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 02:36 AM
Daryl, even if you assume all of God's promises are true you still have to prove them, don't you?
SC 111, 112
There is an evidence that is open to all,--the most highly educated, and the most illiterate,--the evidence of experience. God invites us to prove for ourselves the reality of His word, the truth of His promises. He bids us "taste and see that the Lord is good." Psalm 34:8. {SC 111.3}
No, I'm not playing the Devil's Advocate. I really do want to understand this issue more clearly, and questioning my questions isn't helping. Can truth bear the test of scrutiny? Dare we embrace "truth" if it hasn't been tested and proven? The "evidence of experience" is all we can trust.
AA 232
Those who are sincerely seeking for truth will make a careful investigation, in the light of God's word, of the doctrines presented to them. {AA 232.2}
COL 111
But there must be earnest study and close investigation... No halfhearted, indifferent work will avail... Our salvation depends on a knowledge of the truth contained in the Scriptures. {COL 111.2, 3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 02:44 AM
Dave, what determines whether or not a certain promise in the Bible is valid? What do you base it on? Is believing it is true enough to prove it is true? Or, must we put it to the test, to taste and see if it is so? Without evidence or proof a promise is just so many words. Is there any evidence that proves God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist?
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 04:23 AM
1. I don't believe that God is a liar and
2. I don't think the devil has more power than God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 04:29 AM
Okay. Maybe that works for you, but what about others? Is there any evidence that God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist? besides your personal testimony?
Posted By: John H.
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 05:05 AM
Yes. Jesus' life as a man on earth.
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 05:06 AM
The book of Job seems to be a good example for that. God told the devil to stop when he saw Job had enough.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 06:13 AM
There is a difference between temptation, trial, difficulty and suffering.
The question here is temptation. Temptation is not trial, difficulty or suffering.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
All temptation comes from ones own lust.
The trials, difficulties or suffering may come from others including Satan.
Which makes temptation stronger? Is it trial, difficulty, suffering; or ease, prosperity, affluence?
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 06:56 AM
But wasn't the devil trying to temp Job to curse and abandon God?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 08:26 AM
John, where is the evidence that God regulated how Satan tempted Jesus? Was it necessary for God to prevent Satan from tempting Jesus too much? Did Jesus possess certain weaknesses that made it necessary for God to restrain Satan?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 02:07 PM
Mike,
Some quotes that might be of help.
About Peter:
"Had Peter walked humbly with God, hiding self in Christ; had he earnestly looked for divine help; had he been less self-confident; had he received the Lord's instruction and practised it, he would have been watching unto prayer, working out his own salvation with fear and trembling. Had he closely examined himself, the Lord would have given him divine help, and there would have been no need of Satan's sifting. The enemy can not overcome the humble learner of Christ, the one who walks prayerfully before the Lord. Christ interposes himself as a shelter, a retreat, from the assaults of the wicked one. The promise is given, "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him." Peter was not intelligent in regard to his own defects of character. He did not see his need of the power and grace of Christ in order that he might know himself.
"Satan was permitted to tempt the too confident Peter, as he had been permitted to tempt Job; but when that work was done, he had to retire. Had Satan been suffered to have his way, there would have been no hope for Peter. He would have made complete shipwreck of faith. But the enemy dare not go one hair's-breadth beyond his appointed sphere. There is no power in the whole satanic force that can disable the soul that trusts, in simple confidence, in the wisdom that comes from God." {YI, December 15, 1898 par. 5}
About Jesus:
"In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met His adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. All heaven watched the conflict between the Prince of Light and the prince of darkness. Angels stood ready to interpose in Christ's behalf should Satan pass the prescribed limit." {ST, October 17, 1900}
"These were real temptations, no pretense. Christ 'suffered being tempted' (Heb. 2:18). Angels of heaven were on the scene on that occasion, and kept the standard uplifted, that Satan should not exceed his bounds and overpower the human nature of Christ."--1SM 94.
There was a limit for Christ's temptations too. Satan's temptations could be above what His human nature could bear.
Posted By: John H.
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 03:16 PM
Spot on! Good finds.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 11:29 PM
Amen! I'm glad to learn that even Jesus needed the kind of help we need. I guess it all boils down to faith and trust. God's promises work IF we cooperate with Him. Perhaps that's why there is no excuse for committing known sins. But what about unintentional sins? aren't they kind of, sort of, excusable? You know, the ones that just slip out without, supposedly, any warning?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/30/05 11:54 PM
quote:
"In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met His adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. All heaven watched the conflict between the Prince of Light and the prince of darkness. Angels stood ready to interpose in Christ's behalf should Satan pass the prescribed limit." {ST, October 17, 1900}
Nice find.
I would have said the same thing without the quote, the reason being that Christ's strongest tempations were at the cross. Christ's whole life led up to the confrontation He would have with the devil at the cross. It is regarding this temptation that the following quotations are primarily referencing, I believe:
quote:
Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)
The temptation in the wilderness was a great temptation, much greater than what it appears, and one to which God had been preparing Christ His whole life. But is was a tempation which He could bear at that point, but not the greatest of possible temptations, and not one beyond what Christ could have born (as per the quotation of Rosangela).
The cross, I believe, was the greatest of any possible temptation. Since Christ overcame that tempation, the greatest of any possible temptation, He condemned sin in the flesh, crucifying it at the root. By Christ's "one righteous act" self and sin were forever crucified in principle, and the human race was set free.
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/31/05 04:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
But what about unintentional sins? aren't they kind of, sort of, excusable? You know, the ones that just slip out without, supposedly, any warning?
I don't think this would be classified as a temptation. Even if we do slip up, God will still forgive us.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/31/05 08:05 AM
If it's not the result of a temptation, then is it more than God can empower us to resist? What if we never stop sinning unintentionally? Or, what if we sin unintentionally after probation closes?
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/31/05 09:11 AM
Isn't there a topic called "It is impossable to overcome before Jesus comes?"
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 03/31/05 04:53 PM
Mike,
I believe God wants to make us overcomers over both intentional and unintentional sins. I can’t believe Enoch lost his temper, for instance, the day before he was taken to heaven.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 07:17 AM
Amen, Rosangela. If it weren't true, if God couldn't empower us to resist even unintentional sins, then I wouldn't be interested in His plan of salvation. It is depressing, or at least discouraging, when professing Christians excuse and defend unintentional sinning, as if it were normal and unavoidable. Usually, when I ask these kinds of questions on MSDAOL, they are ignored or worse. Sometimes I am misunderstood, and the more caring people pray for me, and the less caring ones imply my theology is wrong and misleading.
I really do believe we can take God at His word, that we can claim His promises, exactly the way they are worded, and expect God to fulfill them in and through us, so that we come off more than conquerors - unto the honor and glory of God. I believe these promises can be true now, today, this very moment, and every day. I do not believe we gradually outgrow and overcome our defective traits of character by sinning and repenting less and less until we eventually resemble Jesus.
AG 235
None of us need excuse our hasty temper, our misshapen characters, our selfishness, envy, jealousy, or any impurity of soul, body, or spirit. . . . {AG 235.3}
We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}
"Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character." This is true the moment we are born again, not after years and years of sinning less and less. This is also the only way God's promises can be true. God cannot say, I will never allow you to be tempted above my ability to empower you to resist, if it takes a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less for it to be true. "A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong." MAR 237.
MAR 237
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {Mar 237.1}
6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 07:29 AM
Before I am accused of evil speaking, please understand that I am not implying we will never choose to sin again after we are born again. Rebirth does not eliminate our ability to sin if we so choose. We are always free to sin, and this is true even after we make it to heaven. However, we are not free to sin until we are free from sin. Before we are born again, before we are dead to sin, before we are free from sin, we are the slaves of sin. We cannot not sin.
But, and praise the Lord, rebirth changes everything, otherwise we weren't truly born again. In Christ, we are brand new creatures, new born babes, free from all our former defective traits of character - just not free from our sinful nature, which bombards us with all manner of unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of temptations, which must not be confused with, or considered to be, an unconquered defective trait of character.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 05:31 AM
Is "unintentional sin" being used in the sense of "unpremeditated" or "unknown". If it's unknown sin we're talking about, then the only way God can cure us of that is to make it known to us, isn't it? Otherwise we'll just keep on ignorantly doing the same wrong thing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 05:55 AM
Spontaneous, not premeditated. What you posted about sins of ignorance is true. So, what about it? Are unintentional sins considered a temptation? And, does the promise in 1 Cor 10:13 cover it, too?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 02:04 PM
Yes, I believe in unintentional sins we also pass through the stages of temptation, although very quickly, and I believe the promise in 1 Cor. 10:13 covers them too, but the key to victory over sin is to be constantly connected to God.
“The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end.” {DA 324.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 05:08 PM
Amen! It makes so much sense. I am so proud of God, so happy to be a Christian. I can read the promises of God and take Him at His word. I do not have to reword this or that promise to excuse or justify a life of sinning and repenting. In Christ, I can work and rest with confidence in the plainly worded promises of God.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not...
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 ... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/01/05 11:37 PM
quote:
What you posted about sins of ignorance is true. So, what about it? Are unintentional sins considered a temptation?
I'm not following the progression of thought here. If we commit sin ignorantly, then God must make us aware of what we are ignorantly doing before we can overcome that sin, right? We're in agreement on that, aren't we?
Posted By: myarsman
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/02/05 04:18 AM
Is it possible to overcome all temptations that we are faced with?
YES!!!!!
How is that possible?
We simply "choose" not to yield to the temptation.
This is a power that is available to us all and was given to us by our Creator.
The reason anyone "succumbs" to temptation is due entirely to their "choosing" to do so.
Posted By: debbie
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/02/05 06:16 PM
"If the grace of Christ cannot remedy these defects, what then constitutes transformation of character?" That I May Know Him, p. 157
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/04/05 02:26 AM
Tom, I'm not sure what you believe about sins of ignorance. I believe unintentional sins and sins of ignorance are two entirely separate types or categories of sin. In the OT, there were two different sacrifices for dealing with them. An unintentional sin is a known sin we commit spontaneously.
Bob, I am more inclined to believe that the only way to resist temptation is to choose to stay connected to Jesus, rather than choosing not to sin or choosing to be righteous instead. It is by beholding Christ and Him crucified that we are empowered to resist any and all temptations. Sin loses all its power and appeal at the Cross!
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/04/05 07:31 AM
By unintentional you mean unpremeditated, correct? I believe sins of ignorance need to be made known in order to be overcome.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/05/05 06:16 AM
Yes, unpremeditated. Yes, sins of ignorance are ongoing sins committed without realizing it is a sin. For example, working on the sabbath, eating pork, believing we go immediately to heaven or hell the moment we die, etc. It is impossible, however, to be impatient, unkind, unlovely, or to lie, cheat and steal and not know it is a sin. The reason being is the Holy Spirit dwells within us, seated upon the throne of our soul temple, endowing us with spiritual discernment so that we cannot commit such sins and not know it is a sin.
Romans
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/05/05 01:03 AM
quote:
It is impossible, however, to be impatient, unkind, unlovely, or to lie, cheat and steal and not know it is a sin.
It's possible to be unkind and not know it is a sin (and the other things on your list too). There is ample evidence of this on this very forum. I assume the vast majority of the time people are being unkind, they don't realize they are doing so. I know that's the case for me. I don't recall ever being purposely unkind on this forum, but I'd be very surprised if I haven't been unkind in some of the things I've said.
It's part of our learning process, to learn to have the tact of Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/05/05 04:42 AM
More tactful, yes, but unknowingly unkind? cheat? steal? lie? When can we expect God to set us free? If sin is so subtle, how can we know if we are free?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/06/05 08:08 AM
quote:
More tactful, yes, but unknowingly unkind? cheat? steal? lie? When can we expect God to set us free? If sin is so subtle, how can we know if we are free?
The truth sets us free, so when we know the whole truth, then we will be wholly free. If God were to disclose the whole about us all at once, it would kill us, so He tells us a little at a time. God discloses the truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/06/05 05:39 PM
True. But do we experience the miracle of rebirth before our "old man" habits of sin are confessed and crucified? And, how long does it take us, cooperating with God, to see and confess all of our sinfulness, in light of the cross? According to Steps to Christ:
SC 28, 29
You who in heart long for something better than this world can give, recognize this longing as the voice of God to your soul. Ask Him to give you repentance, to reveal Christ to you in His infinite love, in His perfect purity. In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts. {SC 28.2}
We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 06:08 AM
Evangelism, page 272
"A Work of the Heart.--There are many who try to correct the life of others by attacking what they consider are wrong habits. They go to those whom they think are in error, and point out their defects. They say, "You don't dress as you should." They try to pick off the ornaments, or whatever seems offensive, but they do not seek to fasten the mind to the truth. Those who seek to correct others should present the attractions of Jesus. They should talk of His love and compassion, present His example and sacrifice, reveal His Spirit, and they need not touch the subject of dress at all. There is no need to make the dress question the main point of your religion. There is something richer to speak of. Talk of Christ, and when the heart is converted, everything that is out of harmony with the Word of God will drop off. It is only labor in vain to pick leaves off a living tree. The leaves will reappear. The ax must be laid at the root of the tree, and then the leaves will fall off, never to return."
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 08:11 AM
Very nice, Claudia.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 08:25 AM
Yes, we can, as we have in the past on MSDAOL, add to our list of sins of ignorance - dress reform. Of course, not knowing about biblical dress standards is not a defective trait of character, not any more than not knowing about biblical dietary standards. Thus, Sister White is in no way implying that a person can be born again with unknown or unconfessed or uncrucified defective traits of character related to dress reform. If a person is ignorant of dress reform it doesn't mean they have an unknown defective trait of character. It is a sin of ignorance, not a defective trait of character. To develop a defective trait of character a person must reject the influence of the Holy Spirit and repeatedly do something that violates their conscience and convictions.
Posted By: Davros
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 08:34 AM
Isn't it more human nature?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 05:28 PM
I don't think so, not when it comes to sins of ignorance. Diet, dress, sabbath, Jesus, etc, are learned. They are not naturally known from birth. But things like lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc, are things we know about naturally from birth. It is part of our nature. When we go against what we know is right and choose to do wrong, if we do it often enough, it becomes a defective trait of character. The development of character is not the result of accident. It's the result of the deliberate choices we make for weal or woe. We cannot accidentally, or ignorantly, develop defective traits of character. That's why it is character that determines our eternal destiny in judgment.
GC 486
Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. {GC 486.3}
SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}
5T 310
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {5T 310.1}
COL 74
It is character that decides destiny. {COL 74.4}
In contrast to character development, here's what the SOP says about sinful flesh nature:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 09:37 PM
quote:
Diet, dress, sabbath, Jesus, etc, are learned. They are not naturally known from birth. But things like lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc, are things we know about naturally from birth.
Why do you think things like lying are known from birth? Why do you not think this is learned? Lying includes a lot. Do you think there is no aspect of lying which is learned?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/08/05 10:35 PM
No one can lie without knowing it because a lie is something you know is not the truth. If you don't know it's not the truth then it's not a lie. Do you have an example in mind?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/09/05 07:35 AM
Lies are not just saying something is true which you know not to be true. Much more is included than that.
For example, not representing something you know to be true, but remaining silent, may be lying. It may not be clear whether this is a lie or not, as it would depend on the context.
When Christ was being tried before His death He mostly remained silent. But when He was called upon to testify by an oath, I think by the high priest, He did not remain silent, but spoke.
In certain contexts by remaining silent you may convey an idea which is not true. Anyone who is married knows the art of doing this.
By mannerisms, by a tone of voice, by silence, and by many other ways one may bear false witness. These are things which are learned, both how to do them, and that they are sin.
Similar examples could be given for all the sins you mentioned. IMO you're taking much too narrow a view on things to make the types of distinctions your are. The law is exceedinly broad. We have much to learn.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/09/05 08:05 AM
I agree, if a person is being sly, furtive or silent on purpose, in order to give a false or fake impression, it is a type of lie. But if they are not trying to be devious or deceptive, then people are just misreading their body language. Sin is not so subtle that God cannot set us free now, today. It does not take years and years of sinning less and less to discover and overcome our defective traits of character.
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/10/05 07:13 AM
I think sin is more subtle than you think. There's more to sin than just what you ascribe to defects of character. Even if what you say is true, given your meaning of the terms you use, there is still much to be done in the formation of our characters after we first believe.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/10/05 07:50 AM
According to the SOP "one ray of the glory of God" makes every defect and deformity painfully obvious. Sin isn't so sneaky that it can evade the glory of God. And, yes, after we are born again, after we receive the mind of the new man, we have a ton of growing to do. But the growth we experience, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, is the same growth Jesus experienced as He grew from childhood to manhood. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth.
As newborn babes in Christ we are without fault or defect, the same as Jesus. But we are not born again morally mature. Character development is the work of a lifetime, including eternal life. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more like Jesus, more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit. No temptation is too difficult to resist because, as partakers of the divine nature, we are partakers of His holiness, we are more than conquerors in Christ.
1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/12/05 06:31 AM
According to Peter, quoted above, newborn babes are free from sin, dead to sin, having laid aside all evil speaking, all envies, all hypocrisies, all guile, and all malice. According to James, he who sets aside all evil speaking "is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." Jam 3:2.
Such are those who are counseled to "desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." The milk of God's word is for newborn babes, who are free from sin. In other words, the milk doesn't help them figure out how to rid themselves of known sin, rather, it helps them to grow in grace, and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, in exactly the same way Jesus grew and matured and developed perfect traits of character.
But this is only true IF they have tasted the goodness and power of God to deliver them from their former sinful traits of character, their old man habits of sin. "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Elsewhere Peter talks about the privilege of partaking of the divine nature, but it is only for those who have already escaped the lusts of the flesh.
2 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Peter makes it clear that only those who have already escaped the lusts of the flesh, their former sinful traits of character, can claim the promises of God and partake of the divine nature. The divine nature does not empower them to gradually cease sinning, instead, it empowers them to grow in grace, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, and to develop the Christlike traits of character they received when they were born again.
DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/13/05 07:12 AM
quote:
According to the SOP "one ray of the glory of God" makes every defect and deformity painfully obvious. Sin isn't so sneaky that it can evade the glory of God. And, yes, after we are born again, after we receive the mind of the new man, we have a ton of growing to do. But the growth we experience, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, is the same growth Jesus experienced as He grew from childhood to manhood. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth.
There are a number of differences between us and Jesus at birth. I'll mention a couple. First of all, Jesus did not know anything at birth, except what a new born baby knows. We know considerably more than a new born baby. Secondly, Jesus never had any incorrect thoughts. We have have many, and continue to have many. We need to be educated to think correctly and to correct our incorrect thoughts. Jesus also had to be educated to think correctly, but only in the sense of maturing. He never had any incorrect thoughts.
Part of learning experience is to learn how much unlike Jesus we really are. Jesus, of course, did not need to learn this, since He was always like Jesus.
I think by comparing us to Jesus at birth what you have in mind is neiter we nor He had defects of character, but this is a pointless comparison. Jesus at birth had no character at all, except whatever character a new born baby might have, which isn't much. We have well developed characters when we are converted, with much which needs to be unlearned, which doesn't all happen at the moment of conversion.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/13/05 08:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Secondly, Jesus never had any incorrect thoughts. We have have many, and continue to have many. We need to be educated to think correctly and to correct our incorrect thoughts. Jesus also had to be educated to think correctly, but only in the sense of maturing. He never had any incorrect thoughts.
What do you mean by "incorrect thought"? and what is the difference between an incorrect thought and a temptation (which we are told that Jesus knew/knows like us)?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/13/05 07:56 PM
Tom, yes, I agree with you, Jesus wasn't born with fully developed traits of character. And neither are we. Like Jesus, we are born again with all of the righteous traits, fruits, and attributes of God. Not one is missing. But they are undeveloped. That's what sanctification is all about. Sanctification is a lifelong process of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.
Having incorrect or unholy thoughts or feelings, like Thomas alluded to, isn't a sin or the result of a defective trait of character. At least, not initially. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. And, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted. Our guilt or innocence is based on what we do with the sinful thoughts and feelings that regularly come into mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/13/05 09:48 PM
quote:
Tom, yes, I agree with you, Jesus wasn't born with fully developed traits of character. And neither are we. Like Jesus, we are born again with all of the righteous traits, fruits, and attributes of God.
We already have traits of character when we are born again. Jesus did not have traits of character when He was born (except for what a baby would have, which isn't much). We have much more character development than a baby.
We do not have the attributes of God. We have the attributes of a converted human being. We have some characteristics of God insofar as His character is concerned, but these are not the same things as attributes. (I'm being a bit picky here, but I think this is necessary in order to try to understand what you are actually trying to say).
quote:
Not one is missing. But they are undeveloped. That's what sanctification is all about. Sanctification is a lifelong process of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.
What does it mean to receive a sinless trait of character?
quote:
Having incorrect or unholy thoughts or feelings, like Thomas alluded to, isn't a sin or the result of a defective trait of character. At least, not initially. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. And, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted. Our guilt or innocence is based on what we do with the sinful thoughts and feelings that regularly come into mind.
Provided we know they are wrong. There are many things we do ignorantly which are wrong. These are defects of characters if one considers the character as having to do with one's thoughts and feelings. One does not incur guilt for what one does not know, if one is not purposely avoiding light, but this does not alter the fact that one is acting with incorrect thoughts and actions, which is by definition character -- hence the character is defective.
Maybe there's something in the Spirit of Prophesy which supports your use of the phrase "defective character". If you can produce a quote where she uses the phrase the same way you are, you may do so, but it seems to me your are using the phrase in an odd way. A "defective character" would be having thoughts and actions which are not just like Christ's, regardless of whether you were aware of that or not. At least, this is the way it seems to me. You have defined the term, it seems to me, that it's only defective if it's not like Christ and you are aware of that fact.
"It is not only at the beginning of the Christian life that this renunciation of self is to be made. At every advance step heavenward it is to be renewed. All our good works are dependent on a power outside of ourselves. Therefore there needs to be a continual reaching out of the heart after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the soul before Him. Only by constant renunciation of self and dependence on Christ can we walk safely.
The nearer we come to Jesus and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly we shall discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the less we shall feel like exalting ourselves. " (Col 159, 160)
" The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only--
'In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling.'" (IHP 64)
It seems to me from the Spirit of Prophesy, we:
1) Compare ourselves (i.e. our characters) to Christ.
2) Realise how woefully different they are from Christ's.
3) Repent.
The closer we come to Christ, the more we realise the difference between Christ's character and our own, hence the deeper our repentance.
Your theory would seems to me to have the danger of blinding oneself to one's own defect of character by mistakenly think the character is not defective when it is. Comparing one's character to Christ's character should remedy this.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/14/05 04:24 AM
“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)
“True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ.” (4T 17)
“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” (RH 7-22-1890)
“The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity.” (CG 477)
“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)
"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." (6BC 1075)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/14/05 04:32 AM
According to the quotes post above rebirth is a rare and radical transformation of character. It isn't a common occurence among professed believers. It is rare. It is radical. It involves a complete and total change. When we are born again "we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity." Rebirth is a miracle, a re-creation, not a gradual evolution from greater sins to lesser sins. During the "process of conversion" we confess and crucify our defective traits of character, and then we are born again without them - as totally new creature in Christ.
SC 57, 58
A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
7BC 943
We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . [Eph. 2:1-6 quoted.] . . . {7BC 943.1}
As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus (RH April 24, 1900). {7BC 943.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/14/05 07:30 AM
quote:
When we are born again "we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity."
Where did you get this from? It seems to me you just made it up. I didn't see it in any of the quotes you gave.
I would find it far more helpful if rather than quoting a whole bunch of statements which don't deal with the issue (at least in any way I can see) if you would just quote one or two which *do* deal with the issue, and discuss those. I can't read your mind. I don't know why you're quoting the statements you quote unless you explain why.
Rather than rewrite the questions I had in my post previous to this one, I'll ask you please re-address them.
I'm open to your showing that the SOP says that when we are born again that we no longer have defective characters, although in my present way of thinking it doesn't make sense to me, but you would have to convince me that my way of thinking is wrong, and none of the statements you produced seem to me to be saying anything different than what I think.
I presented a well developed argument based on the chapter the "Two Worshippers" from "Christ's Object Lessons". I would appreciate it if you would consider that argument, and respond to it.
Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/14/05 05:02 PM
quote:
Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . [Eph. 2:1-6 quoted.] . . . {7BC 943.1}
When is then? I believe, according to the other quotes posted above, it is a miracle that happens the moment we are born again. "The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are." SC 57.
"When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” 6BC 1101.
“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” RH 7-22-1890. "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." 6BC 1101.
These insights are so clear, so plain, so easy to understand, that I don't see what else I can say to show how they apply to what I've saying about them. We are radically different the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. It's that simple, that awesome, that wonderful. But, it's also a rare thing. "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." 6BC 1075.
“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)
"All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
Again, when is then? When do we experience this radical transformation? Why is it so rare? Your view implies it is common.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/16/05 02:08 AM
quote:
Again, when is then? When do we experience this radical transformation? Why is it so rare? Your view implies it is common.
I don't understand this. What's my view? What is it I think is common?
Regarding the when, depending on which quote you're talking about, the when is at different times. The "need not retain one sinful propensity" is not referring to the moment of conversion, I don't believe. I think it's referring to our Christian experience as a whole.
I'd be interested in your response to the post I made a couple of posts ago regarding the two worshippers and repentance deepening as we progressively see ourselves and Christ more and more clearly. How do you understand this?
One final thought. Do you think that our characters depend upon our thinking? (that is, thy are shaped by the things we think)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/17/05 06:54 AM
Sister White makes it clear rebirth is rare, your view seems to imply it is common. The quotes I’ve provided above also make it clear that we experience a radical change of character the instant we are born again. We need not retain one sinful propensity; those who do are not truly born again. "When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.”
“In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ."
Some people resist the truth because they do not understand it. So, in reality, they are not rejecting the truth, instead they are rejecting a lie. The idea that we are reborn first, and then we gradually, over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less, outgrow our defective traits of character - is simply not true. The Bible and the SOP do not support this evolution model of sanctification. “That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.”
What can be more rare, more radical than her description of rebirth? Instead of assuming she cannot possibly mean what she said, we should devote our time and energy figuring out how and why it is true.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/16/05 07:00 PM
Regarding the two worshippers. Yes, of course, the more fully we comprehend the sinlessness of Jesus, the more fully we realize our sinfulness, the deeper our sense of shame and guilt will be, and the more fully we will appreciate our Saviour and salvation.
Yes, our thoughts shape our character.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/17/05 11:07 AM
quote:
Sister White makes it clear rebirth is rare, your view seems to imply it is common. The quotes I’ve provided above also make it clear that we experience a radical change of character the instant we are born again. We need not retain one sinful propensity; those who do are not truly born again. "When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.”
What of my view implies rebirth is common, and what of EGW's view says it is rare?
Your logic is off in the above. The quote says that those who retain "all" of their natural defect of character do not differ from the worldling, and are not born again. Of course! There's no difference between them. How could they be born again? Retaining all natual defects of character is not the same as not retaining any, which is where your logic is off. I'm not aware of any SOP or Biblical passages which support your theory.
Here's what to me is the clearest depiction of being born again means from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/17/05 07:18 PM
quote:
What of my view implies rebirth is common, and what of EGW's view says it is rare?
She said, "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." If your view is correct, that is, if people are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact, then anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is born again. There is nothing rare or radical about rebirth if it includes some of their former defects. You haven’t quoted anything that suggests we are born again partially defective. The quote you posted above agrees with the quotes I’ve posted here.
Again, here is what she wrote, “In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” No suggestion that some of their former defective traits of character remain in tact, undiscovered or uncrucified. It’s a new life, not a modification of the old. “The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether." DA 172.
"The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." All their habits and practices, not some, but all. Not a combination of some of their old defects.
“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” As you know, selfishness is the root of all sin, and here she plainly says “all selfishness is expelled”. Not some, but all. “Under the general heading of ‘Selfishness’ came every other sin.” LS 241. “Selfishness is a soul-destroying sin.” 4T 476. If all sin has been crucified that means there are no left over defects. None.
"All evil-speaking is rooted out." All, not some. James wrote, "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body" James 3:2. No evil speaking means no sin - a perfect person. Now that's rare, eh? There is nothing rare about your view of rebirth, nothing rare or radical about retaining some of their old defects, nothing rare about a modification of the old man.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/18/05 04:50 PM
Mike,
When Ellen White says that all selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, I don't understand this has to happen all at once. The born-again person doesn't retain known defects of character, but there may be some which escape his notice.
I did a quick search about "defects of character" and chose some passages that might be of interest to this study:
"The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. If lifted up it will not be because he lifts and exalts himself, but because the Lord exalts him. Having his eye fixed upon the purity and perfection of Christ Jesus, and acknowledging and obeying God in all his ways, he is not blinded to his own failures and imperfections. When his deportment in the eyes of men is unblamable and irreprovable, God reads the intents and purposes of the heart." {TDG 16}
"Looking unto Jesus, dwelling upon His virtues, mercies, and purity will create in the soul an utter abhorrence for that which is sinful, and an intense longing and thirsting for righteousness. The more closely we discern Jesus, the more will we see our own defects of character: then confess these things to Jesus and with true contrition of soul co-operate with the divine power, the Holy Spirit, to put these things away.." {OHC 58}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/18/05 08:07 PM
quote:
Here's the paragraph preceding the TDG quote posted above:
The Lord bears long with men, and when they manifest a determination to follow their own judgments, the Lord allows them to do so. I have been made to see the weakness and ignorance of fallen man, even in his best estate. As man goes deeper and deeper in his studies, improving in learning the will and ways of the Lord, he sees more of his own ignorance, thus revealing that he has made decided progress from the beginning.
Rosangela, yes, there are sins of "ignorance" (i.e., "defects of character") which become more and more obvious as born again believers draw closer and closer to Jesus. But, in light of all the quotes posted above, this insight is not implying they are sins being discovered for the first time, sins which Jesus, in mercy, waited to reveal until some later date.
In other words, she's not talking about "defects of character" that were willfully "retained" for selfish reasons. Instead, they are defects that had "escaped his notice". Why and how did they escape his notice? Is it because Jesus chose not to make him aware of them during the process of conversion?
Which defects is Jesus willing to "wink at" or set on the "back burner" until we are ready to deal with them, until we are ready to confess and crucify them? Which ones is Jesus willing to tolerate in us until He thinks we are ready to live without them? Just because we feel unholy and undone in the presence of Jesus does it mean we have pet, private sins we are unwilling to give up, sins that will bar against us the gates of heaven?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/18/05 08:24 PM
quote:
Here is more of the OHC qoute posted above:
It is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which Jesus said He would send into the world, that changes our character into the image of Christ; and when this is accomplished, we reflect, as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord... {OHC 58.3}
When the soul is brought into close relationship with the great Author of light and truth, impressions are made upon it revealing its true position before God. Then self will die, pride will be laid low, and Christ will draw His own image in deeper lines upon the soul. {OHC 58.5}
Again, this insight teaches us that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals our imperfections and defects, who brings them to our attention. So, which sinful defects does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal to us until we are ready to confess and crucify them? If Jesus causes certain defects to "escape" our "notice", then isn't it Jesus who is responsible for them? How can we confess a defect Jesus hasn't revealed yet? Please name a defect Jesus would decide to reveal later on.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/18/05 11:59 PM
So what you are saying is that what stands between a man(or woman) and rebirth is sins refused to be surrendered. Thats quite a different thing than what I though you where saying previously that in order to be born again you must have no sin in your life at all.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/19/05 08:30 AM
That is, no known sins. We are born again without known sin.
But what is a known sin? If the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it yet is it an unknown sin, an unknown defective trait of character? If so, then when will God reveal it? How long will He allow people to go through life with a defective trait of character before He decides to reveal it? What if they die before it is revealed? Will Jesus change it when He comes?
6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God... The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/19/05 05:46 PM
TDG 16
"The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. {TDG 16.2}
Are we to assume "escaped his notice" means the Holy Spirit is to blame? In other words, are we to assume the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal them? If so, then who is to blame? Can God fault a person for having defective traits of character if the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed them yet? When will God reveal them? How long will He tolerate sin before revealing it? What is an example of a defective trait of character God is willing to tolerate for a time?
If the Holy Spirit refuses to reveal a certain defective trait of character how can God promise no temptation will be too difficult to resist?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/19/05 08:13 PM
Mike,
As Tom mentioned previously in the discussion, Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now" (John 16:12). God in mercy does not show us at once all our defects. Sometimes a tendency to be lazy, for instance, or to misspend money, or some other character defect can escape our notice.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/19/05 11:17 PM
Okay, let's assume for a moment that God waits to reveal certain defective traits of character, that the Holy Spirit blinds us so that we do not notice them, until we're ready to confess and crucify them. If a person dies, before they are revealed, what will Jesus do with them when He returns? Will He change their characters?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 07:58 AM
quote:
Okay, let's assume for a moment that God waits to reveal certain defective traits of character, that the Holy Spirit blinds us so that we do not notice them
Why would the Holy Spirit blind us? Or better yet, why we He need to? It's not as if our spiritual accuity is so sharp that the Holy Spirit must blind us to prevent us from seeing truth.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 08:05 AM
quote:
She said, "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." If your view is correct, that is, if people are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact, then anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is born again.
How do you reason from:
1) People are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact
to
2) Anybody and everybody who claims to be a Chrstian is born again.
This is one of the worst leaps of logic I've ever seen Please explain!
The publican prayed simply, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and walked away justified. The Spirit of Prophesy says if we pray the prayer, "I believe, Help Thou Mine Unbelief" we will never perish, never. This does not seem difficult to me. You seem to view salvation as something very difficult. EGW said that God's love has made it hard for the sinner to destroy Himself. Christ said His yoke was easy and His burden light.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 05:28 PM
Justification is conditional upon rebirth and obedience. We are not justified with our defective traits of character. Self must be crucified before Jesus can justify us. To obtain justification we must cease sinning, and in order to maintain justification we must continue to cease sinning.
7BC 908
Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902). {7BC 908.15}
FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 05:36 PM
quote:
If your view is correct, that is, if people are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact, then anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is born again.
If, as you say, people are born again with some of their defective traits of character uncrucified, how, then, do you determine who is born again and who is not? Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall know them. If a so-called Christian is impatient with his children at Church, every Sunday, and it has "escaped his notice", but everyone else is aware of it, then who is to say he is converted and born again? Based on what evidence?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 05:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
If your view is correct, that is, if people are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact, then anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is born again.
If, as you say, people are born again with some of their defective traits of character uncrucified, how, then, do you determine who is born again and who is not? Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall know them.
After you have determined that a person is christian or isnt christian, what are you going to do about it? quote:
If a so-called Christian is impatient with his children at Church, every Sunday,
Every sunday? I thought most of the christians you know went to church on sabbath quote:
and it has "escaped his notice", but everyone else is aware of it, then who is to say he is converted and born again? Based on what evidence?
Maybe the best thing to do is to let God handle His own...
/Thomas
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 06:14 AM
Mike,
The new birth/justification occurs when self is completely surrendered to God:
“God requires the entire surrender of the heart before justification can take place” 1 SM 366
"'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' An entire surrender of the will to God, repentance, faith, and reception of Christ, in the spirit of a little child, will ever bring freedom, light, blessing, and peace to the soul." {1888 Materials, 394}
Then God gives the person a new heart and character is transformed:
“There is no power in repentance to change the life. But when the helpless soul casts itself on Christ, there comes transformation of character. The Saviour declares, ‘A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.’” {ST, May 20, 1903 par. 2}
Genuine surrender is a complete thing at the time it is made, as far as we know. But there are things in the life that will need to be surrendered that we do not see immediately. That’s why self-surrender is a continual process, although it must be complete at every stage:
“The Christian life is one of daily surrender, submission and continual overcoming” 4 SDABC, 1154.
God brings us where we can see the weaknesses in our characters. If we depend on God, we will be victorious over temptation:
“God often brings men to a crisis to show them their weakness, and to point them to the Source of strength. If they will pray, and watch unto prayer, fighting bravely, their weak points will become their strong points. ... Shall we obtain strength from God, and win victory after victory, or shall we try in our own strength, and at last fall back defeated, worn out by vain effort? Victory is sure when self is surrendered to God. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise.” {ST, May 20, 1903 par. 6}
“Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6).
Makes sense?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/20/05 07:28 PM
No, it doesn't make sense to me. Being aware of our weaknesses doesn't mean we are guilty of sin. And, overcoming sin, self, and Satan doesn't imply sinning and repenting. Overcoming, as Christ overcame, means recognizing and resisting temptation, not giving in and then repenting of it.
I don't understand how we can experience the miracle of rebirth and retain some of our sinful habits. It sounds good in theory, but not according to the promises of God. Why would God tolerate sin in born again believers? Which sinful habits can He afford to overlook? Which ones are impossible, or too overwhelming, to discern before we are born again?
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
5T 515
You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 02:00 AM
quote:
Maybe the best thing to do is to let God handle His own...
Thomas, the following quotes suggest that the conversion of souls, and the fruits thereof, should be our concern and passion:
4bSG 114
All should feel that they are their brother's keeper; that they are in a great degree responsible for souls around them. {4bSG 114.1}
CH 215, 216
The conversion of souls to God is the greatest, the noblest work in which human beings can have a part. In this work are revealed God's power, His holiness, His forbearance, and His unbounded love. Every true conversion glorifies Him and causes the angels to break forth into singing. {CH 215.4}
CC 292
He might never be able to explain the process of conversion, but he would be able to discern its effect. . . . No human reasoning of the most learned man can define the operations of the Holy Spirit upon human minds and characters; yet they can see the effects upon the life and actions. {CC 292.2}
EV 288
Though we cannot see the Spirit of God, we know that men who have been dead in trespasses and sins, become convicted and converted under its operations. The thoughtless and wayward become serious. The hardened repent of their sins, and the faithless believe. The gambler, the drunkard, the licentious, become steady, sober, and pure. The rebellious and obstinate become meek and Christlike. When we see these changes in the character, we may be assured that the converting power of God has transformed the entire man. {Ev 288.2}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 11:15 AM
Mike
I was of the impression that this thread dealt with christians, believers.
/Thomas
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 02:41 PM
Mike,
Circumstances and temptations reveal your weaknesses, but this doesn’t mean you must fall into sin. The circumstance just reveals what is in your heart. Let’s say a given circumstance or temptation makes you experience self-pity, for instance. You become aware of that weak point of your character. The question is, are you going to yield to self-pity or are you going to recognize and battle self-pity?
If, however, we do fall into sin, we have a precious promise:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 07:55 PM
Rosangela, I agree. But when a person is born again their "old man" habits of sin, their defective traits of character, are crucified. They no longer reside in the heart. They are dead and buried. However, character is not the only thing that is developed and cultivated as we habitually make wrong choices. They also add to and/or strengthen our inherited propensities to evil, our sinful flesh nature.
Yes, test, trial, and temptation make our sinful predispositions painfully obvious. However, after we experience the miracle of rebirth, sinful character is no longer a secondary source of our weaknesses. As born again believers, who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, the primary and only source of all our faults, imperfections, and shortcomings is sinful nature.
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that, when we are born again, our "old man" defective traits of character are dead and buried, that we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness and true holiness, we must not, therefore, assume that the presence of unholy thoughts and feelings indicates an unknown or unconquered sinful trait of character. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. The origin of temptation is sinful nature, not sinful character.
If we misidentify the origin of tempting thoughts and feelings, which bombard us daily, then we run the risk of misunderstanding the promises of God. The Bible describes born again believers as those who do not and cannot, while abiding in Christ, commit a known sin. Since this is true, it is obvious, then, that the existence of tempting thoughts and feelings is not the result of unknown or unconquered defective traits of character. It is merely evidence that we still possess a fallen nature, which continually generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/21/05 07:58 PM
quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 02:53 PM
quote:
But when a person is born again their "old man" habits of sin, their defective traits of character, are crucified. They no longer reside in the heart. They are dead and buried.
Mike,
At conversion we can say that our defective traits of character are dead, self and selfishness are dead, the old man is dead, only in the sense that they are subdued, dethroned, not in the sense that they are eliminated. We will continually have to battle them:
“Our morning meeting was held in the tent. I spoke again about thirty minutes in reference to genuine sanctification which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. Paul's sanctification was a daily conflict with self. Said he, ‘I die daily’ (1 Cor. 15:31). His will and his desires daily conflicted with duty and the will of God. In the plan of not following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature.” {TDG 251.2}
We will be daily tempted to manifest again our natural defects of character, but we can be victorious in this struggle through Christ:
“We have each a daily work to do, to correct our natural defects of character, and to cultivate the Christian graces. Only by the accomplishment of this work, can we hope to share in the reward of the righteous." {RH, May 30, 1882 par. 18}
"When there is a determined purpose born in your heart to overcome, you will have a disposition to overcome, and will cultivate those traits of character that are desirable, and will engage in the conflict with steady, persevering effort. You will exercise a ceaseless watchfulness over your defects of character; and will cultivate right practices in little things. The difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ. Earnest, persevering effort will place you on the vantage-ground of victory; for he who strives to overcome in and through the grace of Christ, will have divine enlightenment, and will understand how great truths can be brought into little things, and religion can be carried into the little as well as into the large concerns of life. {YI, September 7, 1893}
And gradually the sinful traits can be eliminated from the character:
“As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good.” {Mar 225.7}
[edited to add a passage]
[ April 22, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 05:43 PM
quote:
At conversion we can say that our defective traits of character are dead, self and selfishness are dead, the old man is dead, only in the sense that they are subdued, dethroned, not in the sense that they are eliminated. We will continually have to battle them:
Okay, you believe they are controlled, and I believe they are crucified, but the results are basically the same, namely, we are victorious in Christ. Some people, however, seem unwilling to admit even that much. It also seems like you believe our defective traits of character are, over time, eventually eliminated. Which is better than saying they aren't dead and buried until Jesus returns.
As you study this important topic what do you make of the following insights:
FLB 23
We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}
TSB 98
By what means shall the young man repress his evil propensities, and develop what is noble and good in his character? The will, intellect, and emotions when controlled by the power of religion will become transformed. "Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" [1 Cor. 10:31]. Here is a principle underlying every act, thought, and motive if the entire being is under control of the will of God. {TSB 98.1}
The voice and passions must be crucified. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" [Phil. 4:13]. The will, the appetites and passions, will clamor for indulgence, but God has implanted within you desires for high and holy purposes; and it is not necessary that these should be debased. This is so only when we refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. We are to restrain our passions and deny self. {TSB 98.2}
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
CG 446
Some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences, yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions. This is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Why is this weakness? It is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise, until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers. Men and women lack principle. They are dying spiritually, because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone. The lower passions of their nature have taken the reins, and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion. The soul is held in lowest bondage. Sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity. {CG 446.2}
What is the difference between sinful character and sinful nature as it relates to Paul's insight regarding the crucifixion of the "old man" and the "body of sin"?
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 07:01 PM
quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
MAR 58
None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth. Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome. {Mar 58.3}
This applies to the thief on the cross, the apostle John, and the 144,000. Jesus will not change the character of anyone when He returns. It must be done before we die or before we are translated alive.
6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God... The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 09:08 PM
quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
Unrevealed habits/traits of character will be changed by a revelation of truth, right? For example, Luther will start observing the Sabbath and hugging Jews.
I find the language you use a bit wierd, as it is tautalogical. You talk about "uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character" which you define as things which people know to be wrong. So a clearer way of saying the same thing you are saying, it seems to me, would be simply to be to say that when people are converted, their rebelliousness is healed -- being justified by faith, they have peace with God. Isn't this saying the same thing?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 11:20 PM
Rosangela,
If the evidence that a person subdues, rather than eliminates, their defects when they’re born again is based on the fact they must labor to resist the temptations associated with them, and if they eventually die out, would it be reasonable to assume, then, that the evidence a particular defect has been eliminated is the fact the born again believer can no longer be tempted by it? If the defects of born again believers devolve, diminish, and disappear gradually, is it safe to assume, then, they will eventually reach a point where they can no longer be tempted? Is temptation really evidence our defects have not been eliminated?
Do the words subdue, remove, not retain, remedied, as they relate to our defective traits of character, mean the same thing? The reason I ask is because Sister White wrote, “Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome.” (Mar 58) She prefaces this statement by warning, “None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth.” Elsewhere she warns, “The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/22/05 11:27 PM
Tom, did Luther knowingly, willfully break the sabbath and withhold hugging Jews? Were they defective traits of character he cherished and was unwilling to confess, forsake and crucify? If so, do you think Jesus can, or will, justify such a person and take him to heaven?
Yes, overcoming rebelliousness and "not retaining one sinful propensity" are synonymous.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/24/05 10:21 AM
I'm sure Luther wilfully did the things he did, but he didn't do them knowingly (i.e., knowing they were wrong). Regardless of the fact that he didn't know, they were nevertheless sins, and defects of character in the ordinary sense of the word, "character" having to do with one's thoughts, actions and feelings, which were all clearly wrong, hence defective.
If being rebellious is the same thing as what you are saying, why not just say that? From my perspective, you use words and phrases in a unique and provocative way, to argue points which would not be argued if you used clearer language with words and phrases understood in a normal way. For example, if you wrote that when a person is born again, they do not retain their rebelliousness, but are brought into harmony with God, I doubt many people would disagree with this
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/24/05 07:13 PM
quote:
If the evidence that a person subdues, rather than eliminates, their defects when they’re born again is based on the fact they must labor to resist the temptations associated with them, and if they eventually die out, would it be reasonable to assume, then, that the evidence a particular defect has been eliminated is the fact the born again believer can no longer be tempted by it?
It seems this conclusion is correct, since Ellen White says that "the difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ” {YI, September 7, 1893}
quote:
If the defects of born again believers devolve, diminish, and disappear gradually, is it safe to assume, then, they will eventually reach a point where they can no longer be tempted? Is temptation really evidence our defects have not been eliminated?
Do you mean no longer tempted by a particular sin or no longer tempted at all?
If you refer to the latter, I believe that, if this was the case, neither Adam and Eve nor Jesus could have been tempted, since they had no defect of character. There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us, and Satan can also tempt us using positive traits, instead of negative traits. For instance, he tempted Eve to increase her knowledge. What is wrong with this? Nothing. But it can become wrong if you try to do it independently of God. He tempted Jesus to satisfy His hunger, to show His true identity, to avoid suffering. There is nothing wrong with these things. But it is wrong to do these things in a way that goes against God’s will.
quote:
Do the words subdue, remove, not retain, remedied, as they relate to our defective traits of character, mean the same thing?
It seems so.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 07:12 AM
Tom, Sister White uses specific adjectives to differentiate between the various types and qualities of human traits of character. But never once has she described a sin of ignorance as a "defective" trait of character. Ignorantly breaking the sabbath is not a "defective" trait of character.
In following quotes please note that she talks about unbelievers who possess "noble" and "excellent" traits of character. She doesn't refer to their unsanctified noble and excellent traits of character as "defective". Character is the result of known and willfull choices we make repeatedly.
SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}
4T 505
The unbelieving may possess an excellent moral character; but the fact that he or she has not answered to the claims of God, and has neglected so great salvation, is sufficient reason why such a union should not be consummated. The character of the unbelieving may be similar to that of the young man to whom Jesus addressed the words, "One thing thou lackest;" that was the one thing needful. {4T 505.1}
2T 284, 285
I saw that you should study every move. You should do nothing rashly. Let God be your counselor. He loves your children, and it is right that you should love them; but it is not right to give them the place in your affections that the Lord claims. They have kind impulses and generous purposes. They possess noble traits of character. If they would only see their need of a Saviour, and bow at the foot of the cross, they might exert an influence for good. They are now lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They now stand in the enemy's ranks, under the black banner of Satan. Jesus invites them to come to Him, to leave the ranks of the enemy, and to stand under the bloodstained banner of the cross of Christ. {2T 285.2}
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 07:30 AM
quote:
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
I'd be interested in this too. I think this is harmony with your general idea, but the way you present your idea is not very good IMO (because it's unclear).
For example, does the SOP ever suggest that upon being born again one immediately has a character without defect? I know of no passage which suggests that. However, it would not be difficult to establish that born again believers are in harmony with God's will and not rebels.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 07:40 AM
Rosangela, I like the idea that some temptations, in certain cases, disappear immediately (i.e., physical problems like smoking). And, I like the idea that other temptations disappear altogether after a period of time. Certain sins are self-eliminating as specific hormones loss ground to old age and diminishing desire.
But, again, just because we can be tempted, after rebirth, to repeat a former sin it doesn't mean we still possess the affliated defective trait of character. Jesus was tempted in "all points" like born again believers, not like Adam before his fall. Jesus didn't need defective traits of character in order to be tempted to do wrong. And neither do born again believers. Jesus wasn't only tempted to misuse His powers, to do a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way, He was also tempted to do evil things.
What was the origin and source of Jesus' temptations? God cannot be tempted, therefore, it was necessary for Jesus to become a human, to inherit our sinful flesh nature, in order to experience resisitng temptation. "His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own." (3SM 129)
DA 48
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Do you think we can come to the point in our sanctification where Satan can no longer tempt us with evil? that eventually he will only be able to tempt us to do a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 07:58 AM
quote:
For example, does the SOP ever suggest that upon being born again one immediately has a character without defect? I know of no passage which suggests that. However, it would not be difficult to establish that born again believers are in harmony with God's will and not rebels.
If our views are essentially the same, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that in everything she wrote there are places where she expresses it the way I do, and the way you do. She was very gifted at expressing the same thoughts using different words. For example:
We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}
A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {Mar 237.2}
The mighty power of the Holy Spirit works an entire transformation in the character of the human agent, making him a new creature in Christ Jesus. {FLB 137.5}
Through faith in Christ, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed. {RC 125.7}
True conviction of sin, real heart sorrow because of wickedness, death to self, the daily overcoming of defects of character, and the new birth--these, represented as old things, Paul says had passed away, and all things had become new. {RC 208.3}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 01:41 PM
Mike,
I've addressed this in my last post, but you must have overlooked it, so I'll requote it here:
quote:
Do you mean no longer tempted by a particular sin or no longer tempted at all?
If you refer to the latter, I believe that, if this was the case, neither Adam and Eve nor Jesus could have been tempted, since they had no defect of character. There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us, and Satan can also tempt us using positive traits, instead of negative traits. For instance, he tempted Eve to increase her knowledge. What is wrong with this? Nothing. But it can become wrong if you try to do it independently of God. He tempted Jesus to satisfy His hunger, to show His true identity, to avoid suffering. There is nothing wrong with these things. But it is wrong to do these things in a way that goes against God’s will.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 02:16 PM
quote:
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
I agree with Tom.
"Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption." {FW 103.2}
"Let no one think that, while he is living in transgression, he will be allowed to enter the gates of the holy city. Those who, when Christ comes, are in rebellion against God will not be admitted to the courts above. No rebel will enter heaven." {TDG 320.3}
"The surrender of the heart to Jesus subdues the rebel into a penitent, and then the language of the obedient soul is: 'Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' This is the true religion of the Bible. Everything short of this is a deception." {4T 625.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/25/05 05:56 PM
quote:
There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us ...
Did this apply to Jesus' human nature, too? That is, did His sinful nature generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings that He had to resist on a daily basis? If so, how do these temptations differ from the ones we experience because our defective traits of character haven't been eliminated yet?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 06:04 AM
Great quotes, Rosangela. And I'm glad you agree with Tom's way of expressing the truth. But, if we retain our defective traits of character when we are born again, and if they devolve, diminish and disappear gradually, over the course of a lifetime, what will Jesus do with them when He returns if they haven't been eliminated yet? Since Jesus will not, and cannot, change of characters when He returns, and since we cannot enter heaven with our defects, when will they be eliminated?
As you know, I believe our defective traits of character are revealed, confessed and crucified (i.e., eliminated) during the process of conversion, before we are born again, and that we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth (i.e., with a clean slate and sinful nature). We are also born again like Adam and Eve when they were created - grown up and able to speak and reason like an adult, but with no experience as soldiers of the cross. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot repeat our former habits of sin. But more than this, we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit from glory to glory, from faith to faith - just like Jesus did.
How does this view of rebirth and sanctification differ from the one you and Tom believe?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 07:44 AM
When Christ comes again, it is not only known sin that must be overcome (which is how you have defined your use of "defect of character") but unknown sin as well (which I would also view as a "defect of character"). So I would say that all defects of character must be remedied before Christ comes again, and this does not happen when one is born again, or Christ could have come long ago.
What is it that causes unknown sin to become known? It's truth. What else could it be?
The Spirit of Prophesy refers to the work of Jones and Waggoner as the "beginning of the latter rain" and the loud cry of the third angels message, identifying it with that other angel in Revelation 18, which will fill the earth with its glory. If we would be ready for Christ's coming, not a bad place to start would be by studying the message which the Lord gave for that very purpose.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 04:05 PM
quote:
Did this apply to Jesus' human nature, too? That is, did His sinful nature generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings that He had to resist on a daily basis? If so, how do these temptations differ from the ones we experience because our defective traits of character haven't been eliminated yet?
Mike, once Jesus had no sinful propensities, I think it would be risky to try to define if and to what extent Christ had to resist unholy thoughts and feelings generated by His own nature. What we do know is that He was tempted through legitimate human needs and instincts, and that He was tempted to distrust God, to act independently of God. Appetite was the basis of the first temptation. The second temptation was to act independently of God. The basis of the third temptation was the instinct to preserve life, to avoid suffering. All these are things with which human nature can be tempted. It is said of Christ, for instance,
"Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all his faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use his power to deliver himself from peril, and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness. Satan showed his knowledge of the weak points of the human heart, and put forth his utmost power to take advantage of the weakness of the humanity which Christ had assumed in order to overcome his temptations on man's account." {RH, April 1, 1875 par. 3}
It is proper of human nature the impulse to deliver oneself from peril, and Christ had divine power to do so. Appetite, the impulse to preserve life, the impulse to deliver oneself from peril, the impulse to distrust God when things get difficult, would all constitue weak points of the human heart.
quote:
But, if we retain our defective traits of character when we are born again, and if they devolve, diminish and disappear gradually, over the course of a lifetime, what will Jesus do with them when He returns if they haven't been eliminated yet? Since Jesus will not, and cannot, change of characters when He returns, and since we cannot enter heaven with our defects, when will they be eliminated?
Well, I think we must trust God’s promise, “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6), or until the day of our death.
It seems, however, that if self and sin are completely subdued and yielded to God in this life, they will no longer represent a problem when Satan’s temptations no longer exist. "As long as Satan reigns we shall have self to subdue [and] besetments to overcome" (AG 291), even after our conversion, but this will cease to be a problem after Jesus' coming.
Another important thing to notice is that it is not only character defects that must be under subjection to Christ, but
“There is not an impulse of our nature, not a faculty of the mind or an inclination of the heart, but needs to be, moment by moment, under the control of the Spirit of God. There is not a blessing which God bestows upon man, nor a trial which he permits to befall him, but Satan both can and will seize upon it to tempt, to harass, and destroy the soul, if we give him the least advantage. Therefore however great one's spiritual light, however much he may enjoy of the divine favor and blessing, he should ever walk humbly before the Lord, pleading in faith that God will direct every thought and control every impulse. {MYP 62.1}
“All who profess godliness are under the most sacred obligation to guard the spirit, and to exercise self-control under the greatest provocation. The burdens placed upon Moses were very great; few men will ever be so severely tried as he was; yet this was not allowed to excuse his sin. God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.”{MYP 62.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 07:22 PM
Tom, please quote where Sister White refers to sins of ignorance as defective traits of character. I made an argument, posted above, that she never referred to them that way.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 07:54 PM
Rosangela, aren’t all temptations nothing more than the perversion of innocent, legitimate needs? Jesus was tempted in all points, not just the ones He resisted in the wilderness. He was tempted left and right, continually, the same as born again believers. He was not, however, tempted like an unbeliever. There is a difference. His human nature was sinful, the same as ours. It tempted Him the same as it tempts born again believers.
3SM 132
He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. . . . He was "in all points tempted like as we are" (Heb. 4:15). He exercised in His own behalf no power which man cannot exercise. As man He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature, and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received, it is possible for man to obey God's law.-- Manuscript 141, 1901. {3SM 132.4}
What does she mean by, “He assumed human nature, with… its temptations”? What is the origin and source of these temptations? I believe the following quote explains what she means:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Jesus wrestled with these very same carnal, fleshly lusts and affections. That’s why He can identify and sympathize with struggling believers. He knows, by experience, just how powerful is the craving and clamoring of fallen flesh nature. “He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world, which had brought upon man inexpressible suffering.” (1SM 271)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/26/05 08:25 PM
Rosangela, is it possible that what you are calling defective "traits" of character is more accurately what Sister White calls "inherited and cultivated tendencies" to evil, to wrong? "The world is becoming more and more devoted to the service of sin. Each age, as it passes, bequeaths to the one following its accumulation of contamination." (RH 2-11-1902)
Since we inherit natural tendencies, inclinations, propensities to sin, evil, wrongdoing they cannot be construed as defective "traits" of character, because character, good or evil, is the result habitual thoughts, words and deeds. "... character is not inherited." (PP 223) "The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." (SC 57, 58)
RC 354
Too often we grieve the heart of Jesus by our unbelief. Our faith is shortsighted, and we allow trials to bring out our inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {RC 354.4}
AH 206
The converting power of God can transform inherited and cultivated tendencies; for the religion of Jesus is uplifting. "Born again" means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. {AH 206.1}
MYP 68
When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul. All that is done must be done to the glory of God. This work includes the outward as well as the inward man. The entire being, body, soul, and spirit, must be brought into subjection to God, to be used by Him as an instrument of righteousness. {MYP 68.3}
RC 298
Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace and Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. {RC 298.2}
PP 223
An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. {PP 223.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 07:15 AM
The word "defect" means "imperfection". Do you believe that one's character is perfect the moment one is born again? I suppose it's possible to believe this according to how you define your terms, but this is not the normal way this subject is understood.
Is it your understanding that the SOP teaches our characters our perfect the moment we believe in Christ? If so, is that the same as saying that Christ's character is reproduced in us? If that's so, then why hasn't Christ come, given that He will come when His character is reproduced in us?
And how does the message of Christ's righteousness fit into this?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 08:34 AM
Tom, yes, we are born again morally complete, morally perfect. God implants within us all the righteous fruits and attributes of His character the moment we are born again. We do not gradually accumulate them. Not one is missing the moment we are born again. We are not, however, born again morally mature. Like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we begin morally perfect and we become morally perfect, as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime, the result of lifelong obedience. From faith to faith, from grace to grace, from glory to glory we become more and more mature in the righteous fruits and attributes God implanted within us the moment we experienced true and genuine converison.
The quote you eluded to, the one regarding perfection, applies to the corporate church, not to individual members. The reason Jesus hasn't returned yet is because conversion is a rare thing, many, so many, have not been truly born again, self did not die, therefore, they did not rise up to newness of life, and that is why there are so many perplexities in the church, which is also why Jesus hasn't returned yet. Not until the "shaking" purifies the church will Jesus be able to return. The message of Christ's righteousness is justification and sanctification by faith, the results of which cause us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}
COL 69
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 02:45 PM
quote:
Since we inherit natural tendencies, inclinations, propensities to sin, evil, wrongdoing they cannot be construed as defective "traits" of character, because character, good or evil, is the result habitual thoughts, words and deeds.
Mike,
You are making a distinction which in fact does not exist. When you inherit or acquire a sinful propensity, it is inevitable that it will mold your habitual thoughts, words and deeds. Thus, an evil trait of character is a defect of character, which is nothing but a sinful tendency weaved into the character:
The men connected with the work of God in the office, the sanitarium, and the college can be accounted safe men only so far as they assimilate to the character of Christ. But many have inherited traits of character that in no way represent the divine Model. There are many who have some defect of character received as a birthright, which they have not overcome, but have cherished as though it were fine gold, and brought with them into their religious experience. In many cases these traits are retained through the entire life. For a time no particular harm may be seen to result from them; but the leaven is at work, and when a favorable opportunity arrives, the evil manifests itself.
Some of these men who have marked deformities of character have strong, decided opinions and are unyielding when it would be Christlike to yield to others whose love for the cause of truth is just as deep as their own. Such persons need to cultivate opposite traits of character and to learn to esteem others better than themselves. ... Men of various temperaments and defective characters can see the faults of others, but do not seem to have a knowledge of their own errors; and if left to carry out their own plans without consultation with others, they would make sad mistakes. {5T 418 }
Well may mortal man be afraid of weaving into his character the miserable threads of his own inherited and cultivated tendencies. {BTS, August 1, 1903}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 02:51 PM
quote:
we are born again morally complete, morally perfect.
Do you mean all our sinful propensities are eliminated?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 06:46 AM
Rosangela, that's my point. Character is not inherited. We do not inherit the character that our ancestors developed during their lifetime. But we do inherit their sinful propensities; the evil tendencies to wrongdoing that were fortified and strengthened as they habitually made sinful choices and developed sinful traits of character. We inherit sinful nature, and the sinful propensities associated with it, but we do not inherit sinful character. Character is the stuff of choices, not the result of chance.
Character is the fruit of willful, deliberate, and habitual choices, not the result of accident or ignorance. Character is part of our moral makeup. Thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and behaviour combined make up the moral character. Character is the result of making habitual choices for or against our moral conscience and convictions of right and wrong. Non-Christians can develop, even before they are born again, noble traits of character.
However, even though unbelievers, and unconverted believers, are capable of developing Christlike traits of character, each trait is unsanctified and unholy in the eyes of God. But from a human perspective we may not be able to tell the difference, especially in partially converted church members. We cannot develop holy and righteous traits of character, habits that meet with God’s approval, until we experience the miracle of rebirth.
After we complete the process of conversion, all of our former, nobler traits and habits are sanctified, plus we begin developing all the rest of the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character, which we received as a “harmonious whole” the moment we were born again. “Not one will be missing.” As newborn babes, we are “complete in Christ.” “All malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings” have been crucified.
“If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” While walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we “do not and cannot” commit a former old man habit of sin. “For he that is dead is freed from sin.” He has “ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” Whoever abides in Jesus “sinneth not.”
3T 499
When the character is formed, the habits fixed, and the mental and moral faculties have become firm, it is most difficult to unlearn wrong habits, to be prompt in action. {3T 499.2}
RC 301
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {RC 301.2}
SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}
COL 281
Every sin cherished weakens the character and strengthens the habit; and physical, mental, and moral depravity result. You may repent of the wrong you have done, and set your feet in right paths; but the mold of your mind and your familiarity with evil will make it difficult for you to distinguish between right and wrong. Through the wrong habits you have formed Satan will assail you again and again. {COL 281.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 06:53 AM
quote:
Do you mean all our sinful propensities are eliminated?
No, of course not. That is, the sinful propensities associated with the sinful nature we inherit from our parents will not be replaced until Jesus returns. As long as we live in this world, occupying this sinful flesh nature, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome. Our fallen flesh nature will continue to generate and communicate, to our conscious new man mind, unholy tempting thoughts and feelings, which we must recognize and resist as the voice of sin, self and Satan.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 08:44 PM
Where is there any statement in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophesy that perfection of character is an instantaneous process? (which being born again is -- or perhaps you have a different idea of what it means to be born again).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/27/05 11:22 PM
Yes, rebirth is an instant act of re-creative power. After a "long... patient, protracted process" we are born again morally complete in Christ. God implants within us all the fruits of the Spirit and all of His righteous attributes of character. Not one is missing. However, we are not born again morally mature. The perfection of Christian character is the work of a lifetime. Like Jesus, we must nurture, foster, and develop each individual trait of character as we grow from glory to glory, from faith to faith, from grace to grace. This process of sanctification continues throughout this life and throughout eternal life. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to mature more and more, to become more and more like Jesus.
I hear you saying, and please correct me if I’ve misunderstood you, that we are born again morally defective, that our sinful traits of character devolve, diminish, and disappear gradually, and that while this is going on we gradually accumulate the fruits of the Spirit and the righteous attributes of God. And, you also seem to imply that only the 144,000 will actually attain to perfection of Christian character, that it isn’t possible for the rest of us. I realize I may have misstated your view, so please, don’t ask me to go back and research everything you’ve posted, just state your position clearly. Thank you.
I do not know of any Bible or SOP quotes that say or imply we can complete a lifetime of sanctification is a moment of time. But there are plenty of places where it says we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteous. You are already aware of my favorite quotes supporting this insight, but I can repost them again if you want me to. The thief on the cross was born again morally complete. He received the implanted character traits of God, just like any other born again believer, the difference is he didn’t have time to fully develop them. But our ticket to heaven doesn’t depend on how well we develop each trait of character that was implanted within us the moment we were born again. Instead, our ticket to heaven is rebirth.
How do you explain the difference between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit? What is the difference between walking after the flesh and walking after the Spirit?
John
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 06:31 AM
We are born again as beings who are at peace with God and in harmony with His will. However, character takes time to develop. The Spirit of Prophesy makes this point repeatedly. I don't agree with your characterization of my position because you use words in what seems to me to be a very strange way. Given your definition of "defects of character" that would mean "knowingly and willfully sinning" and you should know that's not what I believe.
Your view seems to be that our characters are perfected in an instant, the moment we believe in Christ. I was asking for some SOP statement to that effect.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 12:43 PM
Perhaps COL 65, 66 could be relevant to this study:
"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges."
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 12:50 PM
Now, Mike, I'm not really sure I understand what you are saying. Let's discuss a practical exemple. The apostles, for instance. They were walking with Christ but they had character defects. Do you mean they hadn't been born again?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 06:14 AM
I'm reposting this because I hope we can discuss it:
quote:
How do you explain the difference between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit? What is the difference between walking after the flesh and walking after the Spirit?
John
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 06:24 AM
quote:
Your view seems to be that our characters are perfected in an instant, the moment we believe in Christ. I was asking for some SOP statement to that effect.
Remember, Jesus was born morally perfect (complete), and He became morally perfect (mature) as He grew from childhood to manhood. It’s the same way for born again believers. They are born again morally perfect (complete), and they become morally perfect (mature) as they grow in grace. So long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glory to glory – not from greater sins to lesser sins. And, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 06:39 AM
Rosangela, the disciples did not experience the miracle of rebirth until after Jesus’ resurrection, until after He breathed on them the Holy Spirit. At that point, they were born again. Self, the old man habits of sin, died. They were raised to newness of life. Walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man they did not, and could not, sin according to their former defective traits of character.
However, if they disconnected from abiding in Jesus, they were just as incapable of resisting sin as before they were born again. Of course, repentance restores the relationship sin severs, and born again believers resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Remember, rebirth is a radical transformation, not a radical evolution.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
DA 664
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/28/05 10:22 PM
Isnt there a general agreement in this thread that all humans grow from not knowing God to being perfect as He is perfect, with the difference that some believe being born again happends in the beginning of the journey while others believe its a result of a successfull journey?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 01:56 AM
Actually, Thomas, it's both. We begin born again and, if we remain faithful and steadfast, we end up born again. The thief on the cross was born again, and even though he died before he had a chance to develop the holy traits of character God implanted in him, he will be in heaven. We know this is true because Jesus said no one can enter heaven who hasn't been born again. Jesus will not change the thief's character when He returns, thus it was obviously changed the moment he was born again on the cross. It was a thorough and radical change, to say the least.
ML 250
This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
AA 561
Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
RC 48
The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to go on unto perfection, to grow up unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. (RC 48)
ML 249
Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. (ML 249)
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 08:25 AM
Old Tom: Your view seems to be that our characters are perfected in an instant, the moment we believe in Christ. I was asking for some SOP statement to that effect.
Mike: Remember, Jesus was born morally perfect (complete), and He became morally perfect (mature) as He grew from childhood to manhood. It’s the same way for born again believers. They are born again morally perfect (complete), and they become morally perfect (mature) as they grow in grace. So long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glory to glory – not from greater sins to lesser sins. And, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
New and improved Tom: Making a comparison between Christ as He was born and a born again believer is a rather odd comparison since there are more differences than similarities by a long shot. For example:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
To say that believers are born again "morally perfect" is a strange use of words. You redefine "perfect" as "complete" which is OK for Greek, but a rather odd use of the word in English. Does it mean anything different than merely saying that born again believers are converted and in harmony with God? I think that's a lot easier to understand, and something everyone would agree to (as well as being Scriptural).
Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
You made a comparison with Christ as a baby. This is an odd comparison to make regarding perfection of character because as a baby Christ had not character, or perhaps more accurately, He had the character of an infant. That's certainly not comporable to the character of an adult, whether born again or not -- they're entirely different things in character (pardon the pun).
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/29/05 03:38 PM
quote:
Rosangela, the disciples did not experience the miracle of rebirth until after Jesus’ resurrection, until after He breathed on them the Holy Spirit. At that point, they were born again.
There was a time I used to think like that, but I couldn't harmonize this view with the following quote from The Desire of Ages 648:
"'Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit.'
"These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, 'Ye are clean.' Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts hey could receive Christ's words.
"Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace."
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 06:37 AM
The Scriptures say:
quote:
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 1:11)
If we don't understand that the disciples were born again, we're pretty much destined to miss just about all of what the Gospels have to teach us. The disciples were just like us. The which healed them will heal us, if we recognize we need healing. But as Jesus said, those who are whole have no need of a physician. That is, if we have a false view of ourselves, as the pharisees did of themselves, then we will not avail ourselves of the help Christ longs to give us.
This lack of perception reminds me of a Brazilian hymn: "Sim eis-nos prontos" (Yes, we're ready). It's referring to the episode where Christ asked the question, "Are you ready to be baptized with the baptism I will be batized with?" and they foolishly responded, "yes," not recognizing their true condition. In the hymn we sing, apparently rejoicing in their ignorance, "Yes we're ready," but I can't help but feel that we are no more ready than they were and our blindness is no less than theirs.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 07:59 AM
quote:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
1) "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
"The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." (MH 180)
2) "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
3) "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." (1 Peter 2:1-3)
"We are to see and understand the instruction given us by the great apostle, 'As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby,' in perception, in likeness to the character of Christ. Development of character, growth in knowledge and wisdom, will be the sure result of feeding on the word." (MM 124)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:06 AM
quote:
Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
Sister White makes it clear that God implants within the heart and mind of born again believers all the fruits and righteous attributes of God. These traits of character are perfect. However, like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we must cooperate with the Spirit of God and nurture, cultivate and develop them, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity.
DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:14 AM
quote:
1) Christ never sinned.
2) Christ was divine.
3) Christ was a baby.
Regarding 1) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
Regarding 2), I don't know why you quoted the SOP quote, as it has nothing to do with this, that I can see. The Scripture quote says we partake of the divine nature, but that doesn't make us divine.
Regarding 3), Paul is making an analogy that when one is newly come to the truth, one is *like* a new-born babe, not that one is literally a baby. Christ was a baby was literally a baby, which is a very different thing than an adult.
A more fit analogy would be that when we are born again, we are like Abraham was when he was born again. Any comparison we make to Jesus will result in our falling far short in the comparison.
Rather than just quoting Scriptures or EGW texts, I appeal to you, as I have in the past, to please explain your meaning. Why are you quoting the texts you are? Please don't make me try to read your mind.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:15 AM
Jesus spoke of Peter's conversion, during the Last Supper, in the future tense. Peter was in the "process of conversion" until after the resurrection of Jesus.
Luke
22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
5T 570
The Lord wants you and your family to be Christians in every sense of the word and to show in your characters the sanctifying power of the truth. If you had formed such characters, your works would stand the test of the judgment; should the fires of the last day kindle upon your works as they now are, they would prove to be only hay, wood, and stubble. Do not think this severe; it is true. Self has been mingled with all your labors. Will you come up to the high standard? It will be like learning the first principles of what constitutes a Christian character. Christ said to the apostle Peter: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." You, likewise, must be converted before you can do acceptable work for the Master. {5T 570.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:17 AM
Old Tom: Let's return for a moment to the question of whether one's character is instantaneously made perfect when one is born again. Is this what you believe?
Mike: Sister White makes it clear that God implants within the heart and mind of born again believers all the fruits and righteous attributes of God. These traits of character are perfect. However, like Jesus, like Adam and Eve, we must cooperate with the Spirit of God and nurture, cultivate and develop them, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity.
New Tom: Does this mean the answer to my question is "yes"?
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:23 AM
quote:
… humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin.
There is not a stain in the character because …
Tom, what do these insights say to you?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:36 AM
quote:
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
Of course. Sister White wrote that "convresion" is a rare thing among church members. But one ray of the glory of God makes every defect painfully obvious.
6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
To answer your question, Yes, the sinless traits of character that God implants within born again believers is perfect the moment, the instant, He implants them. Like a seed, perfection is inherent in the mind of the new man, which unfolds as each trait matures and blossoms - from glory to glory, from one stage of perfection to another. A plant does not progress from imperfection to perfection, rather its inherent perfection unfolds, from seed to blossom to fruit to harvest.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:36 AM
"There is not a stain in the character because …" means nothing to me. It's a sentence fragment, not even a complete thought.
Humanity combined with divinity doesn't sin is referring to Christ. Christ demonstrated God's character. By beholding Him, we may be transformed into the same image.
Here is my favorite Spirit of Prophesy quote regarding perfection of character:
quote:
God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)
I've answered your questions. Please answer mine.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:44 AM
I like that quote, too. What do you think about the following two quotes (reposted from above):
"The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." (MH 180)
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
Regarding my answer to your question, please see my last post.
Here's a similar quote to one quoted above:
RH RH 9-19-1912
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection, and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In his humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through cooperation with divinity human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we too may obtain complete victory. (RH 9-19-1912)
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 09:22 AM
quote:
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
I liked this quote very much. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. When we've seen Jesus Christ, we've seen the Father. When we believe the revelation of God's character we seen in Christ, we are brought into harmony with God.
God is enthroned in the heart. That's a beautiful thought. What does it mean? It's not literal, because God's throne is in heaven. It means that one believes the truth about God, and that truth reconciles one to God, leading one to unite one's heart, mind, soul and will with God's. God sits at the throne of the heart, meaning that one can say with Christ, "I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, they law is written within my heart."
The key to the whole thing is given here: "We behold Him for the perfection of His character." If we believe the truth about God -- He is kind, gracious, generous and a respector of freedom, not cruel, arbitrary, or harsh as the enemy has portrayed Him to be -- then healing can begin.
I didn't see that you answered my questions. You presented some quotes which were along the lines of what Rosangela presented from Christ's Object Lessons, which talk about about the seed being perfect at every stage. Everybody accepts this principle (at least everybody participating on this thread).
What causes difficulty is when you stray from the language and thoughts of the Spirit of Prophesy and introduce your own ideas, such as the idea that when one is born again one's character is instantaneously made perfect. As I've mentioned, it is actually possible to understand the process of conversion in a way where this is true, if one uses a vocabulary whereby words and phrases have a private meaning, not shared by the general public. But what one generally understands as perfection of character is not something which happens to one the instant one is born again. Rather the teaching of Scripture is that one begins the path at that point, pressing on to perfection. If you interpret this along the seed analogy, fine and good, but why not use language which is clear and easy to understand?
Ok, this is regarding the first question about perfection of character. The other question was, "If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?" I didn't see that you answered this.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 08:11 PM
quote:
To answer your question, Yes, the sinless traits of character that God implants within born again believers is perfect the moment, the instant, He implants them. Like a seed, perfection is inherent in the mind of the new man, which unfolds as each trait matures and blossoms - from glory to glory, from one stage of perfection to another. A plant does not progress from imperfection to perfection, rather its inherent perfection unfolds, from seed to blossom to fruit to harvest.
quote:
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
Of course [not. However,] Sister White wrote that "conversion" is a rare thing among church members. But one ray of the glory of God makes every defect painfully obvious. [Any defect retained, after God reveals it, is a cherished sin, and will neutralize the entire gospel].
Our differences, which are profound and many, include the process of sanctification. I believe people, who complete the "process of conversion", are born again without their former defective traits of character. Each trait was revealed and confessed, in light of the cross, until every trait was confessed and crucified. You believe each trait is revealed and gradually crucified after people are born again.
I believe the process of sanctification begins the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience, the work of a lifetime, an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glory to glory. It is not, as you assert and advocate, the result of progressing from greater sins to lesser sins. Sanctification is not a gradual evolution whereby we become less and less imperfect. It is quite the opposite. It is the result of lifelong obedience, not the result of gradually becoming less disobedient.
We are born again new creatures in Christ. Behold, all things are become new. The old has passed away. All malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings have been crucified. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. We receive, the moment we are reborn, all the fruits and righteous attributes of God as a harmonious whole. We do not gradually accumulate them. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart. The Holy Spirit sits supreme upon the throne of our soul temple. We work out what God works in by cooperating with His Spirit. Humanity combined with divinity does not sin.
Which one of the above mentioned expressions or insights is unscriptural or foreign to the Spirit of Prophecy?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 04/30/05 11:36 PM
Also, regarding the example of Jesus as our perfect surety:
OHC 48
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/01/05 07:21 PM
I would like you to support your contention that I believe the things you say I do. When I say that you believe something, I present proof in the way of direct quotes from things you have written. You just write what comes to mind, as far as I can tell, because I do not recognize my own thoughts or ideas among the things you claim are my thoughts and ideas.
So, regarding your post two back, please provide some proof to support your contentions as to what I believe, because you haven't come very close to representing what I believe from my point of view. If you provide quotes, and I have been unclear, then I can clarify what I meant.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/01/05 08:53 PM
Tom, I guess it is no accident that you continually encourage me to use expressions that you believe everyone can agree with, especially since I can't even correctly represent your view of rebirth. I am truly sorry for getting it wrong. I'm not sure I can go back through all threads and find the exact quotes you are looking for. So, for the sake of time and clarity, would you please refute what I posted and share with us just exactly what it is you do believe. Thank you.
Again, it seems to me, from all the studies we have done online together, that you believe we are born again morally defective, that is, with certain defective traits of character that haven't been revealed or discovered yet, which are gradually revealed, as God sees fit, and confessed, if we are sincere about salvation. Also, regardless of these unrevealed character defects we are seen as, from God's perspective, living in harmony with His will, and no longer rebellious.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 04:04 AM
I can think of no better way of describing the process of being born again, as I see it, than this:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
1) The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God and draws us to Himself.
2) If we do not resist that drawing, we are led to repentence (i.e. the goodness of God leads us to repentance)
3) The Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul (i.e. born again)
4) One's thoughts and desires are brought into harmony with God.
I wouldn't characterize our growth in grace as becoming less and less sinful, but as becoming more and more like Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 04:40 AM
Great! We are in agreement, right? Do you think our views differ in any way?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 06:01 AM
"I wouldn't characterize our growth in grace as becoming less and less sinful, but as becoming more and more like Christ."
A very important perspective.
It is only possible when we are hid with Christ in God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 06:08 AM
quote:
Great! We are in agreement, right? Do you think our views differ in any way?
I think the most important distinctions of our viewpoints has to do with God's character. Your point of view appears to me to make God out to be cruel and arbitrary. For example, you view God as the author of sin and death. That's as wrong as can be IMO.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 05:11 PM
Sorry, I couldn't keep up with the discussion during the weekend. Mike, you said,
quote:
Jesus spoke of Peter's conversion, during the Last Supper, in the future tense. Peter was in the "process of conversion" until after the resurrection of Jesus.
It's easier to interpret Jesus' words that Peter needed to be converted in the sense that he had to be converted from his sin, for, as Ellen White says, "we need to be converted daily" {GCB, July 1, 1902}, than to interpret Jesus' words that "He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean" as meaning that Peter was still in the process of conversion. The verb "has bathed" is in the greek perfect tense - an action completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 07:00 PM
John, an important distinction, too. Some people believe becoming less and less sinful is the same thing as becoming more and more like Jesus.
Tom, my view of God's wrath is biblical. Please see Rosangela's post on the "Behold the Lamb" thread. Also, I suspect our views regarding sins of ignorance and defective traits of character is our biggest difference. Like John, I believe we are born again without our former defective traits of character.
Rosangela, it's hard for me to imagine a converted believer betraying Jesus, doubting His messsianic claims, on the night of His betrayal and arrest. Peter was a confused and tormented soul, full of doubt and self-reliance, quick to draw the sword, and quicker still to turn tail. The traits and qualities he revealed that night do not remind me of a born again believer, of someone like Paul was willing to die rather than to deny his Lord and Saviour. Of course, Peter demonstrated the traits of Paul after the resurrection of Jesus, which makes me think his conversion took place after his killer crash.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 09:32 PM
The Biblical view of wrath is that God gives people over to the result of their choices. For example,
quote:
16And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deut. 31:16-18)
This is the same principle that EGW explains in GC:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (GC 36)
A couple of other statements which cast light on this discussion:
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. (COL 84)
quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (RH 9/7/97)
It appears to me that in your view of God's wrath, the underlying principle is force. If you do not do what God wants, then He will kill. Actually torture you first, then kill you. This is not an accurate picture of God, I don't believe. I don't recall Jesus ever torturing and killing those who disagreed with Him.
Posted By: John H.
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 09:52 PM
He didn't, then. But God does different things at different times. And He will punish sinners in the lake of fire at the end of the millennium. There's no other way they could burn for different periods of time, in keeping with equitable judgment, according to their sins committed in this life. God has to orchestrate that; no other being in the universe has that ability.
To say that God does not kill is to preach "another gospel." It portrays another god, not the One described in Scripture.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/02/05 11:26 PM
Well said, John. Thank you.
Tom, Jesus made it clear that His first mission to earth wasn't to judge sinners, but to save them. The purpose of His second coming is totally diiferent than His first coming. Without Jesus it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. There is more to Jesus than the NT. He is also the God of the OT.
John
12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Matthew
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
Hebrews
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 12:49 AM
quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (RH 9/7/97)
Please explain to me how the changing circumstances affect the above quote. According to the quote, the exercise of force is not a principle of God's government, but is instead only found in Satan's government, because His principles are not of this order. This, in fact, was given as the reason that God did not destroy Satan (or perhaps I should say "a reason" or "a principle reason"). So how do changing circumstances change the principles of God's government?
That seems to me it would be like God changing His character. How would changing a principle of God's government not be tantamount to a changing of God's character?
The principle embodied by Christ is that evil is overcome by good, not by force.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 03:11 AM
Judgment is not force, it is due process of law. "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment..."
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 04:50 AM
Force is causing someone to do something against their will. According to the paradigm you are presenting, this is exactly what God does. According to the one I am presenting, it is not.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 05:22 PM
Speaking of "force", as it relates to resisting temptation (the topic of this thread), the following quotes imply that God will supply the force, or power, necessary to resist any and all temptations, so that there is no excuse for committing a known sin.
SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}
SC 43, 44
The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator. He desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development. He sets before us the height of blessing to which He desires to bring us through His grace. He invites us to give ourselves to Him, that He may work His will in us. It remains for us to choose whether we will be set free from the bondage of sin, to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. {SC 43.4}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 06:33 AM
quote:
Rosangela, it's hard for me to imagine a converted believer betraying Jesus, doubting His messsianic claims, on the night of His betrayal and arrest. Peter was a confused and tormented soul, full of doubt and self-reliance, quick to draw the sword, and quicker still to turn tail. The traits and qualities he revealed that night do not remind me of a born again believer, of someone like Paul was willing to die rather than to deny his Lord and Saviour. Of course, Peter demonstrated the traits of Paul after the resurrection of Jesus, which makes me think his conversion took place after his killer crash.
Mike,
Here she is commenting about another disciple, John:
"John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, because he was believing and trustful, and loved his Master with devotion. His love for Christ was characterized by simplicity and ardor. There are many who think that this love for Christ was something natural to the character of John, and the disciple is frequently represented by the artist as of a soft, languid, feminine appearance, but such representations are incorrect. John and his brother were called the "sons of thunder." John was a man of decided character, but he had learned lessons from the great Teacher. He had defects of character, and any slight shown to Jesus aroused his indignation and combativeness. His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome. At one time he and his brother claimed the right to the highest position in the kingdom of heaven, and at another he forbade a man to cast out devils and heal diseases because he followed not with the disciples. At another time when he saw his Lord slighted by the Samaritans he wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume them. But Christ rebuked him, saying, 'The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.' {ST, April 20, 1891 par. 1}
"In the character and teaching of Christ, the disciples had both precept and example, and the grace of Christ was a transforming power, working marvelous changes in the life of the disciples. The natural traits of character, the spirit of criticism, revenge, ambition, evil temper, were all in the beloved disciple, and had to be overcome in order that he might be a representative of Christ. He was not only a hearer but a doer of the words of his Lord. He learned of Jesus to be meek and lowly of heart, to wear his yoke, to bear his burden. This was the result of companionship with his Master." {ST, April 20, 1891 par. 2}
Notice what she says: "His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome."
Look at the sequence: saved through the merits of Jesus - loved Jesus - there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 07:06 PM
Yes, that's my point, too. A born again believer, someone who has experienced true and genuine conversion, recognizes and resists their "natural evil traits", their "inherited and cultivated tendencies" to evil and wrongdoing. The expression "overcome" means recognizing and resisting them. It doesn't mean eliminating them so that we can no longer be tempted by them. Jesus overcame them, too. We will have to resist them, to a lesser or greater degree, until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful nature with a sinless one.
Revelation
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
"The thoughts must be centered upon God. We must put forth earnest effort to overcome the evil tendencies of the natural heart. Our efforts, our self-denial and perseverance, must be proportionate to the infinite value of the object of which we are in pursuit. Only by overcoming as Christ overcame shall we win the crown of life.--MH 455 (1905). {2MCP 666.6}
"Christ has power from His Father to give His divine grace and strength to man--making it possible for us through His name to overcome. There are but few professed followers of Christ who choose to engage with Him in the work of resisting Satan's temptation as He resisted and overcame. {Con 63.1}
"In order to copy a pattern correctly we must carefully study its design. If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. {Con 66.1}
"By profession they say, We are the servants of Jesus Christ, while their works say that they yield subjection to Satan's sway because it costs them the least inconvenience. Is this overcoming as Christ overcame? Or is it being overcome by temptation. {Con 76.2}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 07:14 PM
Mike,
Do you still see a distinction between an evil trait of character and a defect of character?
And what is the difference you see between Peter and John?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 07:15 PM
"Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies . . . The heavenly intelligences will work with the human agent who seeks with determined faith that perfection of character which will reach out to perfection in action. To everyone engaged in this work Christ says, I am at your right hand to help you. (RC 298)
“Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.” (AA 560, 561)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 07:19 PM
quote:
Do you still see a distinction between an evil trait of character and a defect of character?
For all intents and purposes there doesn't seem to be a major difference between sinful nature and sinful character. Rebirth doesn't necessarily lessen the warfare against sin, self and Satan, against our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. In fact, if anything, things tend to be harder, at times. The devil is fighting to hang on. He desparately doesn't want to lose us.
The difference between Peter and John? As far as whether or not they experienced conversion before the resurrection of Jesus - I think it is clear that they both experienced a profound change and conversion when Jesus rose from the grave. Jesus said, If I be lifted up, all men will be drawn unto me." It is the blood of Jesus that saves us.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/03/05 09:27 PM
quote:
His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome.
John was saved, but still had natural evil traits which had to be overcome. The clear implication of the text is that the evil traits had not been overcome -- i.e. a defective trait of character. If the evil traits had already been overcome (i.e. John didn't have the defect of character) she would not have written "there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome" but rather "there had been natural evil traits which had been overcome."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 12:01 AM
No problem, Tom. That's why I believe John's ultimate conversion occurred after Jesus was resurrected, after Jesus breathed on him the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit fell upon him on the day of Pentecost. But even after he was born again of the Spirit, after his old man habits of sin were crucified, his sinful nature continued to generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings, the same clamorings he had to resist, which he wasn't very successful at, before Jesus laid down His life on the cross. And, although certain clamorings diminish over time and with age, sinful nature never dies in this lifetime.
Regarding being born again of the Spirit, there were believers, well after Jesus returned to heaven, who were followers but hadn't received the Holy Spirit. Jesus said,
John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Acts
19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 01:28 AM
quote:
No problem, Tom. That's why I believe John's ultimate conversion occurred after Jesus was resurrected, after Jesus breathed on him the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit fell upon him on the day of Pentecost.
But John was alread saved (i.e. born again) *before* this point. John 2 says that the disciples believed in Jesus. They were born again right away, but they still had much to learn (as do we).
We miss a lot if we think we don't have any defects of character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 02:41 AM
People can say they believe all day long, but actions speak louder than words. The night Jesus was betrayed, by someone who claimed to believe, He was abandoned, by people and disciples who claimed to believe. Denying Jesus is the fruit of an unbeliever, not a believer, regardless of their claim or profession.
Matthew
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
2 Timothy
2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Titus
1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 02:44 AM
quote:
We miss a lot if we think we don't have any defects of character.
Which defective trait of character does Jesus overlook when He reveals them to us in light of the cross? Which one can we cling to, can we cherish, can we refuse to confess and forsake, without imperiling our soul?
"It is a perilous thing to allow an unchristian trait to live in the heart. One cherished sin will, little by little, debase the character, bringing all its nobler powers into subjection to the evil desire." (PP 452) And, what about this telling testimony? "There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ." (1 S&T 246) And, the following commentary?
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
SC 31
If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself better. How many there are who think they are not good enough to come to Christ. Do you expect to become better through your own efforts? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23. There is help for us only in God. We must not wait for stronger persuasions, for better opportunities, or for holier tempers. We can do nothing of ourselves. We must come to Christ just as we are. {SC 31.1}
SC 32, 33
Beware of procrastination. Do not put off the work of forsaking your sins and seeking purity of heart through Jesus. Here is where thousands upon thousands have erred to their eternal loss. I will not here dwell upon the shortness and uncertainty of life; but there is a terrible danger--a danger not sufficiently understood--in delaying to yield to the pleading voice of God's Holy Spirit, in choosing to live in sin; for such this delay really is. Sin, however small it may be esteemed, can be indulged in only at the peril of infinite loss. What we do not overcome, will overcome us and work out our destruction. {SC 32.2}
SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}
[ May 03, 2005, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 04:02 AM
OHC 215
Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. {OHC 215.2}
What is the origin and source of this "strong undercurrent of wrong"? Is it sinful character, or is it sinful nature? Does it mean we are still morally defective? Did Jesus have to resist it the same as born again believers? Or, was He somehow immune? Does the following quote shed any light on it?
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 06:56 AM
quote:
People can say they believe all day long...
By "people" do you mean John and Ellen G. White? They were mistaken in saying that John was a believer before Pentecost?
The way the disciples acted around Christ is just the way we act. We miss many lessons if we miss the fact that we are like Christ's disicples.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 07:02 AM
quote:
Which defective trait of character does Jesus overlook when He reveals them to us in light of the cross?
The ones we can't see.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 04:04 PM
Mike,
The first time I experienced suffering after I was born again (in fact it was the first time in all my life), I yielded to self-pity for a long time. At first I felt even justified in cherishing my self-pity. Later I had a notion that it was wrong, but it took me a long time to realize that it was a sin. This may sound silly, but the fact is our mind does not always works as it should.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 04:19 PM
Here are some warnings to written by God's Messenger to "The Brethern", those entering the ministry.
It is one of many similar exhortations I could post, but this should be clear enough for the impartial Bible student. The key is the very last paragraph.
This is not addressed to the unconverted, the spiritually ignorant or the unsaved. And I am not saying that an unsaved pastor does not exist.
If one instantly losses all "defective traits of character" upon the intial salvational conversion, as Mike theorizes, than EGW is seriously adrift in this letter, in my opinion.
(All emphasis amd puncuation are mine)
"The Holy Spirit is to do its work upon mind and character, exerting an influence upon thoughts and actions. If received, cultivated, and appreciated, it will always be reformatory, refining, elevating, and ennobling.
He who always: [not just at his initial conversion]
1.aims for entire conformity to God's will,
2.who does not follow his own natural inclinations,
will allow the Holy Spirit to improve and mold and fashion his character upon a plan and model different from his own inherited and cultivated tendencies, changing him to another man.
The influence of the Spirit upon the human mind will regulate it after the divine order. But the Spirit does not work in a manner and power beyond the human agent's power of resistance. [no "heavenly forcing": no stealing of a man's free will]
A man [this is addressed to a born again man]may refuse to hear the counsels and admonitions of God. He may choose to take the regulating of his conduct into his own hands; but when he does this, he is not made a vessel unto honor.
Like Moab, he refuses to be changed, emptied from vessel to vessel, and therefore his taste remaineth in him, and his scent is not changed. [See Jer. 48:11.] He refuses to correct his defective traits of character although the Lord has plainly pointed out his work, his privileges, his opportunities, and the advancement to be made. It is too much trouble to break up his old ways and transform his ideas and methods. [another definition of "defective traits of character"]
"His scent is not changed." He clings to his defects, and is thus unfitted for the sacred work of the ministry. He was not willing to make a close examination of himself, or to closely inquire for light to shine upon him in a clear, distinct manner. His prayers have not ascended to God in humility, while with humble endeavor he sought to live his prayers by understanding and performing his duty.
After the Lord has put one on test and trial, that he may be assured of his calling to the ministry, if he is content to follow his own way and his own will, if he will not heed the manifestations of the Spirit of God, if he refuses to profit by growth in grace and depth of understanding, be assured that the Lord does not need him, for he cannot communicate that which he has never received. {19MR 24.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/05/05 06:24 AM
Did the thief on the cross experience the miracle of rebirth? Yes, of course. How many unseen, unconfessed, uncrucified defective traits of character did he take with him into the grave? Which ones will Jesus change when He returns and resurrects the thief? So far, this question, which has been posted several times on MSDAOL, has not been addressed.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/04/05 07:24 PM
During the process of conversion, before we are born again, the Holy Spirit reveals to us all of our defective traits of character. If we confess and forsake our defects we are born again, we become new creatures in Christ. Note the following insights:
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. {SC 29.1}
TMK 247
When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. {TMK 247.3}
1 S&T 246
There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. {1 S&T 246}
No one, not even the thief on the cross, can enter heaven with an unconfessed, uncrucified defective trait of character. Jesus will not change our character when He returns. Note the following insights:
LDE 295
If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above.--13MR 82 (1891). {LDE 295.1}
FE 279
There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. "Except ye be born again," said Christ, "ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. {FE 279.1}
SD 9
We are not to settle down, expecting that a change of character will come to us by some miraculous work, when Jesus shall appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. No, my young friends, we are judgment-bound, and probation is granted to us here in this life, in order that we may form characters for the future, immortal life. {SD 9.2}
Born again believers are the last to feel that they are “righteousness, even as he is righteous.” In fact, the more they become like Jesus less they feel like it, but this does not mean they possess defective traits of character. Note the following insights:
2MCP 727
"He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked" (1 John 2:6). "Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans 8:9). This conformity to Jesus will not be unobserved by the world. It is a subject of notice and comment. The Christian may not be conscious of the great change, for the more closely he resembles Christ in character, the more humble will be his opinion of himself; but it will be seen and felt by all around him. {2MCP 727.3}
ML 196
We must educate the soul to be pitiful, gentle, tender, full of forgiveness and compassion. While we lay aside all vanity, all foolish talking, jesting, and joking, we are not to become cold, unsympathetic, and unsocial. The Spirit of the Lord is to rest upon you until you shall be like a fragrant flower from the garden of God. You are to keep talking of the light, of Jesus, the Sun of Righteousness, until you shall change from glory to glory, from character to character, going on from strength to strength, and reflecting more and more of the precious image of Jesus. {ML 196.5}
People who refuse to confess and forsake their defective traits of character do so to their own ruin. There is no excuse for retaining defects of character. Jesus reveals all of our defects, and if we refuse to forsake even one defect it will work our eternal ruin. Note the following insights:
TMK 247
Many fail to recognize the claims that God has upon them. They profess to be sons and daughters of God, but they do not behave as children of God. They argue that their evil habits and customs which they followed when they served under the black banner of the prince of darkness must be excused on the ground of their weakness, while they claim that "it is their way." . . . Their objectionable hereditary traits of character they choose to retain as idols. {TMK 247.2}
When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.... {TMK 247.3}
Will you who read these words resolve that you will never again seek to excuse your defects of character by saying, "It is my way"? Let no one declare, "I cannot change my natural habits and tendencies." The truth must be admitted into the soul, and it will work the sanctification of the character. It will refine and elevate the life, and fit you for an entrance into the mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him. {TMK 247.5}
DA 490
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/05/05 12:12 AM
quote:
How many unseen, unconfessed, uncrucified defective traits of character did he take with him into the grave?
All the ones he wasn't aware of.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/05/05 05:57 PM
And, will Jesus change them, or remove them, when He returns?
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/06/05 08:28 AM
God will patiently explain the truth of whatever it was that His children were ignorant of, and that will take care of the problem.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/07/05 06:18 AM
Tom, how does your answer harmonize with the following insights:
TDG 48
Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," Christ declared (John 3:3). This change of heart is unseen; for it is an inward work, and yet, it is seen, because it works outward from within. {TDG 48.3}
“The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/07/05 07:42 AM
The character has to do with the trend in one's life. It involves the feelings and thoughts and actions. These will continue as they were when a person died.
A person may have been doing things wrong which he wasn't aware of. These could have led on earth to defects of character with which the person was unaware. God will patiently explain these things.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/07/05 07:16 PM
Tom, it would be nice if you could post some quotes that say Jesus will "patiently explain" to us our unknown defective traits of character, and what Jesus will do with them afterwards.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/08/05 08:52 AM
There's no need for quotes. It's self evident. When many get to heaven, God will explain to them about concubines and polygamy. God will explain about the Sabbath to many.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/08/05 10:48 AM
Here are "proof-texts" for those who need them:
"Some among the redeemed will have laid hold of Christ in the last hours of life, and in heaven instruction will be given to those who, when they died, did not understand perfectly the plan of salvation. Christ will lead the redeemed ones beside the river of life, and will open to them that which while on this earth they could not understand." Undated manuscript 150. {1SM 262.2}
"Christ will lead the redeemed ones beside the river of life, and will open to them that which while on this earth they could not understand. {FLB 14.6}
In the light that shines from the throne, mysteries will disappear, and the soul will be filled with astonishment at the simplicity of the things that were never before comprehended." {FLB 14.7}
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/08/05 10:56 PM
Nice quotes!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/11/05 06:19 AM
Nice quotes, indeed, but they fail to prove that we are saved in our sins, that Jesus will change our defecitve traits of character when He returns.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/11/05 06:15 AM
No one I know of is trying to say we are saved in our sins, MM. If that is your conclusion, than I can understand a bit better why for so many years we have been on this merry-go-round with you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/14/05 11:40 PM
quote:
... that Jesus will change our defective traits of character when He returns.
Will He?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/15/05 03:34 AM
Quoting your own false assumptions of what posters are saying, without saying they are your posts, ain't cricket MM.
No one claims that Christ erases anything from us at His return.
But be warned: He will not overlook your unconfessed defects, pet sins, or personality traits that are unchristlike that you refuse to face just because you have constructed a fanciful theory of your own, no matter how much you write or postulate.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/15/05 04:06 AM
M, or MM, don't you define a defect of character as known sin? Noone here that I'm aware of (at least that has been discussing things on this thread) believes that you can be justified by faith while continuing in known sin. So what's the difference in what you think and what the rest of think?
IMO you use words and phrases in an odd way, which nobody else does (like "righteousness of the law" as the righteousness of God in another thread, when Paul uses it to describe that which is contrary to God's righteousness), which makes it challenging to get down to the really important issues, which have do to with what the words and phrases mean.
So does a defective character indicate anything other than continuing to willfully commit known sin?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/16/05 10:48 PM
Phil, Tom has made it clear, somewhere on MSDAOL, that Jesus will indeed change our defects of character when He returns.
Tom, the SOP talks about hereditary (inherited) and cultivated defective traits of character. What is the difference?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/17/05 02:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Phil, Tom has made it clear, somewhere on MSDAOL, that Jesus will indeed change our defects of character when He returns.
I suggest, for your credibility's sake, you find that damning statement of Tom's, or apologize.
[ May 16, 2005, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/17/05 08:30 AM
When we die our characters don't change. I'm well aware of this. I can't believe I would have written anything contrary to this. I suppose a slip of the keyboard is possible, but I doubt it on something like this.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/17/05 04:29 PM
MM: Please quote where you surmise Tom stated that he felt the wicked or even the redeemed get this mythical "defects of character changes at His return".
Well, I think we should let MM show where he saw this, Tom. I've read everything you have written, as well as MM's on this subject, as far as I can tell, and if you would have "gone off-track" in any degree I would have jumped on it, I promise.
I truly think this should be settled before we conitue, or we will soon find that we have been entangled and wasting time based on shallow understandings or misreadings or slanted opinionism.
Posted By: Tom
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/18/05 01:47 AM
Sorry M, or MM, I missed the question earlier. Inherited traits of character would refer to that which is inherited; that is, in the genes. Cultivated would refer to that which is cultivated; that is, developed by habit. Christ took both upon Him that He might heal us of both.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/19/05 07:05 AM
Very clear , Tom.
Still waiting for MM's revelation of his claim that you say Christ will change us at His return.
Whenever you find that evidence, MM.....
A person who comes from a long line of alcoholics, if not rescued by the Lord, has a very small chance of not becoming a boozer. This is an overt manifestation.
But there are many other less overt traits just as sinful that can be inherited, as well: fearfulness, lying, gluttony, sexual perversions, obstinacy, etc.
I have no idea which defects are strictly inherited or learned, and I don't think it matters one bit where it comes from.
Christ can and will "rewire" anyone that will, at anytime face these defects, helplessly give them to Him to uproot, and stand up in faith that He will do that job, His way.
To make a formula that all MUST face everything all at once before rebirth is seeking to avoid what one is. It also does violence to much of the Word's warnings about education, "I have much to tell you, but youcannot endure them..." etc.
[ May 19, 2005, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
Posted By: Ikan
Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! - 05/22/05 03:17 PM
Six days and no reply from MM.
He must be AWOL...off rock climbing with his students.
Well, so this will not be overlooked, and hoping not to appear a pest, I'll repeat:
Still waiting for MM's revelation of his claim that Tom or I say Christ will change us at His return.
Whenever you find that evidence, MM.....