The Date of the Crucifixion & Related Issues

Elle posted this in another thread:


Yes, I’m interested as I am into that study right now and it’s always nice to have someone to test findings with.



I'm a little confuse how to apply this with when we(SDAs) say that Jesus died in the spring of A.D 31. Do we really mean the 31AD according to our current calendar or according to some another calendar? Or do we mean 30AD??? Can you clarify what exactly is the date we(SDAs) say (with precise meaning according to our calendar) Jesus died?

Years that Nisan 14 falls on a Friday : Concerning on what day when Nissan 14 happened in 31AD, it was on a Tuesday March 27th . So 31AD is not possible to be the year of Jesus crucifixion. Nisan 14 fell upon a Friday on only two years:

• April 8 in 30 AD
• April 3 in 33 AD

Darkness over the earth according to Luke : Another astronomical sign that G-d gave is the suddenly imposed darkness upon the whole land described in Luke 23:44 “And it was, as it were, the sixth hour[noon], and darkness came over all the land till the ninth hour[3pm],

According to Kudlek and Mickler's book on solar and lunar eclipses before the Christian era, on April 3, 33 AD, Nissan 14 Friday, there was a star, El Nath that pass in front of the Sun from noon. Then another phenomena happened at 3:01pm a lunar eclipse started in Jerusalem and continued until after 5pm. Both these astronomical phenomena is a historical witness from G-d to mark the importance of that day. Not only to mark that day for His Son’s death but also this imposed darkness prevented the priest to kill the Passover lamb during light time as they were to kill the lamb anytime after noon and before sunset. This imposed darkness maid it unlawful to kill the Passover.

Then there’s many more historical and astronomical data to consider to conciliate with scriptures concerning the birth of Jesus and the start of his ministry that also points to a 33AD crucifixion. We could continue this in another topic.

Let's start with this: Did Christ die on a Nisan 14 or on a Nisan 15?

YLT Ex 12:4 '(And if the household be too few for a lamb, then hath he taken, he and his neighbour who is near unto his house, for the number of persons, each according to his eating ye do count for the lamb,) 5 a lamb, a perfect one, a male, a son of a year, let be to you; from the sheep or from the goats ye do take it. 6 'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

Ex 12:6 specified to kill a lamb in the afternoon between noon and sundown "between the two evenings" (literal Hebrew text)on Nisan 14. The first evening was at noon, when the sun began to go down; the second was at sundown, when the sun actually set.

Alfred Edersheim says in his book the temple, page 211
"According to the Samaritans, the Karaite Jews, and many modern interpreters, this means between actual sunset and complete darkness (or, say, between six and seven p.m.); but from the contemporary testimony of Josephus, and from Talmudic authorities, there cannot be a doubt that, at the time of our Lord, it was regarded as the interval between the sun's commencing to decline and his actual disappearance. This allows a sufficient period for the numerous lambs which had to be killed, and agrees with the traditional account that on the eve of Passover the daily evening sacrifice was offered an hour, or if it fell on a Friday, two hours, before the usual time."

So, Did Christ die on a Nisan 14 or on a Nisan 15?

Nisan 14 as written in the Law of Moses.

If we believe that Jesus life and death fulfilled the Law, than Jesus would of died the way He has instructed in the law.

YLT Mt 5:17 Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;18. for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

For Jesus to be the antitype of the Passover lamb, it wasn't necessary for Him to die on the day the Passover lamb was sacrificed. He was also the antitype of the sacrifices offered at Pentecost, at the Day of Atonement, at Tabernacles - but He didn't have to die on the day they were killed.

If Jesus kept the law, could He have observed the Passover on the wrong day?

Here is what EGW wrote about this:

I love this! I had just read about that in the commentary a few days ago and so was wondering how Elle was handling it.

I will come later with scriptures, but first I wanted to give everyone else a chance to say something and hoping that someone would talk according "to the Law and to the Testimony"(the manner of the Law). Is 8:20

Elle,

I've been super busy lately, but have some interest in this topic as it seems to have cropped up here and there lately. I'm researching this one right now to have more precise answers, but so far, here are some Biblical facts to start with. I'll put this into a table, because I like to visualize things that way.

Bible Facts in Brief	Fact Details	Supporting Scriptures
Start of Jesus' Ministry: AD 27	John began baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, at which time Jesus also came to be baptized of John.	Luke 3:1-4
3 days prior to crucifixion, Jerusalem's siege predicted	Jesus spoke of the events surrounding the destruction of the temple two days before the Passover.	Mark 13; Mark 14:1-2, 12
Siege would be for that generation	Jesus predicted in multiple accounts that the siege would come before that generation had passed.	Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32
One generation = 40 years	The Bible uses a generation to represent a period of 40 years.	Numbers 32:13; Psalms 95:10
Jesus was to die mid-week of His ministry	Daniel prophesied some very specific timelines relative to the coming of the Messiah. Messiah was to be "cut-off" (killed) in the midst of the week. Jesus had not made Himself known to be the Messiah until it was revealed at His baptism, which then started that "week."	Daniel 9:26-27
Daniel predicts the events of that week	Daniel gives the major events of the week of Christ's ministry in reverse order, starting with the last and working up to the first, in reference to how the full 70-week prophecy should culminate. Here are the events: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and [stoning of Stephen] to make an end of sins, and [the greatest of all sins in crucifying Christ] to make reconciliation for iniquity, and [Christ's atonement] to bring in everlasting righteousness, and [Christ's perfect life] to seal up the vision and prophecy, and [Christ fulfilled the prophecy] to anoint the most Holy. [Jesus' baptism]	Daniel 9:24
One day = one year	According to the Bible, a prophetic day represents one year, so one week would be seven years, and one half-week would be 3.5 years. If Jesus is to be cut off in the midst of a week, that allows 3.5 years for Him to minister prior to His death.	Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Daniel 9:24-27

From the above table, there are three pathways, which may converge, to locating the year of Christ's death.

1) We know it must take place AFTER the baptism.
2) We know it must take place about 40 years before Jerusalem is destroyed.
3) We know He has but 3.5 years of ministry before He is to die.

If we look at the prophecy of Daniel more closely, we have additional facts to use relating to the start of the seventy weeks. For now, I am concentrating on these events which are nearest to the actual time of Christ.

According to online sources, Tiberius Caesar's reign can be pinpointed to a start date of September 17, 14 AD. The ascension year is always counted as one, even if only a day before the next calendar year began. Apparently, Luke was using the Syro-Macedonian calendar, in which that particular year would have begun in October. So whether Tiberius' reign had begun in August of that year, when Augustus Caesar died, or in September, when the Roman senate convened to officially inaugurate Tiberius, is immaterial to the start of the year. He would have reigned but a few weeks when his "second" year began.

So, if AD 14 corresponds to the start of Tiberius' second year, as Luke would have reckoned, then his 15th year would start in AD 27. This lines up perfectly with other facts, including the dates stamped on coins in the time of Jesus.



The "Guematria" of the above, shown HERE, reveals that LIS = Year 16, LIZ = Year 17, and LIH = Year 18. The above quote was using the Roman calendar, not the Syro-Macedonian that Luke used, so the ascension year included almost a full year, from September 17 until August 29/30--the start of the year in the Roman calendar of that time. So the count is one year behind that of Luke's reckoning. In other words, the years would have been 17 through 19 according to Luke. Again, this points to AD 27 as the 15th year given in Luke 3:1.

Adding 3.5 years to AD 27, we land somewhere between AD 30 and AD 31. I have come to the conclusion that the AD 30/31 notation is on account of calendar differences that cause those years to overlap. I have yet to find a good website explaining the slash notation, but such notation is nonetheless quite common. In any case, when we look carefully at the years which fit the Passover landing on Friday, it comes down to AD 30 according to the calendar of our times. AD 31 would be the end of that year (considering the overlapping calendars), and it would be possible to use AD 31 for the year of Jesus' death as well.

(I hope all this was clear, as I sure put some time into it.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, Tx for the reply and all of the good data. I will come back to it tomorrow.

First I would like to adress Rosangela's post and I was hoping you were going to comment on it.
Do you agree with what she said?

Elle,

My post was right after Rosangela's post in response to her post.

Elle & Daryl,

My previous post was focused on the year, not the day. As regards the day, I am convinced that Jesus was crucified on the very day of Passover.

The Bible starts each day with the "evening" followed by the "morning" for that same day. Jesus ate the passover supper with His disciples in the evening of the same day in which He was to die on the cross.

It is clear from the Biblical record that Jesus could not have died in the evening of the next day, because He was already dead with sufficient time before sundown for His followers to place Him in the tomb before Sabbath. At the start of Friday evening, the start of Sabbath, He was resting in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb.

Jesus spoke of His death to come on the Passover.



Mrs. White also confirms this, if the Bible were not already sufficient.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Now (now that I have time), let me address more of the original post that began this discussion. For the sake of remembrance, here it is.



I was first exposed to some of these concepts as recently as last month. I had not before realized what the "mainstream media," so-to-speak, was sponsoring in terms of the chronology of events surrounding the life and death of Christ. There are now multiple websites and sources that all seem coordinated in teaching the same chronology, but perhaps the most prominent and artful among them is that of bethlehemstar.net. They have a website that is replete with references to both the Bible and astronomy. They find facts from any possible source to piece together a very persuasive argument for Jesus' birth and death years being later than we have traditionally taught.

Being one who likes to verify things before I either accept or reject them, I took a look. My cousin was urging the new find as being very interesting and compelling. So, at his behest, I began to read their materials.

My first impressions, upon looking at the site, were to notice that the color scheme and imagery on their pages seemed allusive to psychics and/or spiritism. But I shrugged that off to check the actual text of what they were saying.

As I began to read, at first it appeared that their facts were in good order and all agreed with the Biblical record. But then I stumbled upon some points that seemed amiss. I will present them for your own study.

1) They claim that the star of Bethlehem which led the wise men from the East to Jerusalem and then on to Bethlehem, according to all of the Biblical record, could have been none other than a "wandering star," aka a planet.

2) They claim the star "stopped" over Jerusalem and again over Bethlehem by slowing down over a matter of days or weeks until it appeared almost stationary.


It is hard for me to imagine that #2 could possibly be true, as it seems from the Biblical record that the star actually moved ahead of them and stopped, first at Jerusalem, then over Bethlehem. However, I think the stronger case is with #1.

Here are the texts to look at:



Draw your own conclusions, of course. But from my perspective, there would have been no such herald of our Savior's birth as a "wandering star!" The rest of their explanation also seems to fall short of the Biblical narrative.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Daryl, with these quotes are you saying that Jesus died on Nisan 14? Which according to our beliefs and other EGW quotes, that it was on a Friday? But according to Nasa accurate calculation of the New Moon, on AD31, Nisan 14th fell on a Tuesday.

Here is Nasa’s website so you can verify the data yourself : http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html

Here is a handy simple calendar generator for anytime in CE showing the moon phase. Their moon phase are in sync with NASA’s data. So you can use it to see the calendar for 31 CE.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=31&country=34

Below is the moon conjunction time and date for the years from 30AD to 33 AD :

Jesus Crucifixions Years Probability(Data in Julian Date)

................. Conjunction ...........
Year ........ Date -- Time(UT) -- Day ...... Crescent Visibility* .... Nisan 1 .... Nisan 14
30 ........... Mar 22 -- 17:46 -- Wed ................ Thu 23 ............ Fri 24 ...... Thu 6(Apl)
30 ........... Apr 21 -- 09:36 -- Fri .................. Sat 22 ............ Sun 23 ...... Sat 6(May)

31 ........... Mar 11 -- 22:19 -- Sun ................ Tue 13 ............ Wed 14 ...... Tue 27(Mar)
31 ........... Apr 10 -- 11:32 -- Tue ................ Wed 11 ............ Thu 12 ...... Wed 25(Apl)


32 ........... Mar 29 -- 20:00 P-- Sat ................ Sun 30 ............ Mon 31 ...... Sun 13(Apl)
32 ........... Apr 28 -- 07:00 P-- Mon ............... Tue 29 ............ Wed 30 ...... Tue 13(May)


33 ........... Mar 19 -- 10:38 T-- Thu ............. Fri 20 ........... Sat 21 ...... Fri 3(Apl)
33 ........... Apr 17 -- 19:09 -- Fri ................... Sat 18 ............ Sun 19 ...... Sat 2(May)

*Crescent Visibility probability data is figured out with Roy Hoffman’s software (highly accurate) which is used by those who publish Feast calendars like the Karaite Jews http://www.karaite-korner.org/holiday_dates.shtml and Scott Arrington http://3rdangelfarmandpublishing.com/. They use Roy Hoffman software to plan moon sithing and to know the probability of sighting the first cresent.

Roy Hoffman’s software can be downloaded for free. http://sites.google.com/site/moonsoc/ I have done that just yesterday and I’m starting to get familiar with it.



Daryl and GC, as you can see, according to the astrological data, it was impossible that Jesus died on 31 CE for Nisan 14 fell on a Tuesday March 27th or on Wednesday 25th of April that year.

Nissan 14th only fell on a Friday Apl 3, 33 CE.

Elle,

I'm afraid you have fallen victim to some misinformation. I would encourage you to verify the facts of your table above by at least two other websites, to see if they give the same data. When I have looked for calendars online for those years, I have found a different set of facts. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I've even found a calendar that purports to say that the Jewish "Sabbath," the one called a "high day" in the Bible, the regular seventh-day Sabbath, fell on a "Thursday" for our calendars, of April 26. That kind of "data" is simply bogus. People are just making stuff up as they wish for whatever purposes they might have.

Take a look at the data at the following site, for example:

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm

Almost any source of information on it that I have found shows that Passover fell on a Friday for the year 30 AD. That is where I would look for the answer, with the discrepancy between 30 & 31 AD being that of a calendar reckoning.

By the way, I know something of how difficult it is to create an accurate date calculator software. There have been changes to the calendar at various times for different countries which affect the ability to predict ancient dates. None of the changes involved a restructuring of the week, but taking 10 days out of the calendar in 1582 (or whenever it was per the country at time of acceptance of the new calendar) really messes up the sequence for earlier dates. Remember Y2K? Computer programmers don't always do the job correctly--even for such simple matters as dates, not to mention that their job is made more difficult by special events such as extra leap days certain centuries and not others.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, my information source is NASA. Historical moon conjunction or other moon phases can be accurately calculated today. NASA's data is accurate.

Elle,

I was not talking about the moon phases. I don't know if that part is accurate or not. I was talking about the calendar data. None of the four Gospels mentions the moon with respect to the passover or crucifixion. But days of the week with respect to passover are mentioned.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The answers I'm coming to are that the Passover was on the day after the full moon. That should open up some dates that would have been missed if one thought it should be the day of the full moon itself. I'm also finding that Passover may have been on Nisan/Abib 15, not 14. Probably the 14th of Abib/Nisan was the full moon that people often are looking for, but they need to remember that it was the next day that was the Passover.

NASA certainly would have little interest in accurately finding a Passover. They may be able to help us with moon phases, if that will help us. But it is still left with us to interpret what relationship, if any, may have existed between the phase of the moon and the Passover in a given year.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, Nisan 1 fall on the day of the sighting of the first crescent of the new moon. NASA's data of the moon conjunction date and time tells us when it occurs in those years. With that info, we then know what day Nisan 1st and Nisan 14th falls on.

Hmmm...I'm not sure about the moon thing. Was it full the day of Passover, or the day before? I find different things for this online. I'm really not typically into studying the phases of the moon, and I feel that the Passover date in question may not require it. But if you can help us, Elle, to clear up this point, I would appreciate it.

Still studying...but might need to rest for a bit on this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tx, for bringing that point. Actually, to my understanding, Nisan 14 fall precisely on the full moon.

That's a way to double check Roy Hoffman's moon sighting probability software which uses several complex data algorythms based on moon curvature, and etc....

Anyway I went and verified my data reproduced using Roy Hoffman's probablility against NASA table of the full moon. All my data is accurate with the exception of my data being one day too early and NADA says full moon is on Monday April 14th 32 AD and Saturday May 2nd 33AD. NASA's data is according to UT wheras Roy Hoffman's data is according to Jerusalem Time. So this could be the reason of that discrepency.

Nevertheless, all other data are accurate, and these two dates are potentially off by only one day which these dates still reflect that they remain not a possible Nisan 14 day falling on a Friday.

With this double verification, April 3rd 33 AD still remain the only possible date where Nisan 14th falls on a Friday.


I agree. The killing of the passover lamb was to be killed on Nisan 14 between the two evenings(noon and sunset); however the actual eating of the passover meal was always after sunset after the killing which would of fell on Nisan 15th.

Therefore, Jesus was dead on Nisan 15th and it was impossible for him to eat the actual passover meal at the apointed feast time according to the law with His disciples. So Jesus and His disciples ate a passover meal(evening of Nisan 14) the day prior but it was not the passover meal that needs to be eaten with the family in their respectful homes according to the Torah. Its the same thing Employers do with their employees. They have a Christmas diner sometime before Christmas. Everyone calls it a Christmas diner, but it wasn't the Christmas diner that is eaten with the family.

Also, according to the law, they were not to leave the house until sunrise. Jesus and the disciples left after their meal during the night to the mount to sing some hyms. They did because they were not observing the actual Passover meal and they did not break any laws neither by doing so. If that meal was the actual passover meal, it would of been unlawful for them to go outside that night.

For sure NASA are not reporting this for any religious interest. Their data is totally objective and purely reporting astronomical data. However, these data are very reliable and important for us to know when the moon phases occur during those dates which pinpoints the feasts time.

Looks like while I'm reply to your post, you are replying to my post, making us a post late of each other.

As said in my previous post, that I appreciate your point that Nisan 14 would fall on the full moon which I have checked against NASA's data as they also reports the dates and time of the full moon. My data was still accurate with the exception of two dates however Nisan 14 still didn't fall of a Friday for neither of these dates. So April 3, 33 CE remain the only possible date for Nisan 14 on a Friday.

In my Jesus Potential Crucifixion dates Table for the year between 30-33 CE on page 2, I only provided the conjunction moon date & time as I was using that to figure out Nisan 1st(with Roy Hoffmans software) and then Nisan 14th.

However, here are Nasa's full data of all the moon phases for years 30 to 33. The Full moon data column would reflect Nisan 14th, if Nisan where to start on that moon of that year. Nasa did not provide the day of the week in this table, however they do provided it elsewhere. I have provided them in parenthese for ease of reference and it can be verified easily at this link http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=31&country=34 which is a NASA reference link by which these calendar are generated using NASA's data.

*New Moon ……. First Quarter ……. Full Moon(Nisan 14) ……. Last Quarter
30 CE
Mar 22 17:46 …. Mar 30 22:18 ………. Apr 6 19:42(Thu) ………. Apr 13 11:34
Apr 21 09:36 …. Apr 29 10:40 ………. May 6 03:00n(Sat) ………. May 12 22:26

31 CE
Mar 11 22:19 …. Mar 19 21:41 ………. Mar 27 10:55(Tue) ………. Apr 3 04:30
Apr 10 11:32 …. Apr 18 15:06 ………. Apr 25 19:59p(Wed) ………. May 2 10:42

32 CE
Mar 29 20:00 P…. Apr 6 11:58 ………. Apr 14 09:00t(Sun) ………. Apr 21 06:57
Apr 28 07:00 P…. May 6 05:37………. May 13 19:09(Tue) ………. May 20 11:33

33 CE
Mar 19 10:38 T …. Mar 26 10:33 ………. Apr 3 14:51 p(Fri) ………. Apr 11 03:45
Apr 17 19:09 …..... Apr 25 02:19 ………. May 3 04:54(Sat) ………. May 10 09:20


*NASA New moon here is the conjunction of the moon which is the dark moon(totally disappered) and not the first crescent sighting. The first crescent or sliver sighting is when Israelites reckoned the new month.

Please check for yourself NASA's data : http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html

Elle, this is not accurate.
Towards the close of the 29th day of a month a watch was kept for the young crescent moon low in the western sky just after sunset. If the crescent was visible, a new month was begun; otherwise an extra day was added to the month. So both days must be considered as a possibility.
Schaefer, in his article “Lunar Visibility and the Crucifixion,” says the following about the visibility of the moon on April 11, A.D. 31:

If R is less than 1, I would characterize the moon as being difficult to spot. … Sunset of April 11, A.D. 31, R = 0.9 (Bradley E. Schaefer, “Lunar Visibility and the Crucifixion,” The Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, no. 31 (1990), pp. 53-67).

So, astronomically speaking, it is perfectly possible for A.D. 31 to be the year for Christ’s death, provided that we consider that Nisan 1st was on April 13 (12/13, sunset to sunset); that, therefore, Nisan 14th fell on Thursday, April 26, (25/26, sunset to sunset); and that Christ died on Friday, April 27, a Nisan 15th.

So it was against the law to leave the house until sunrise (who said that? not the Bible) but it was not against the law to eat the Passover on the wrong day?
A meal during the unleavened-bread week could be called a Passover meal, but a meal before Passover could never be called a Passover meal.

What does the Bible say?

The three passages in the Synoptics (Matt. 26:17, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7) say that the disciples prepared the Passover for Christ on the first day of Unleavened Bread. In Jesus' time, the Jews regarded the fourteenth of Nisan as the first day of Unleavened Bread. Several ancient sources agree that the Jews regarded the fourteenth as the first day of the feast: Josephus in one passage speaks of Passover as a festival lasting eight days (Antiquities 2.15.1), and elsewhere he states explicitly that the festival began on the fourteenth (Wars 5.3.1); The Talmud says that the rabbis considered the fourteenth as the first day of Unleavened Bread (Babylonian Talmud, Peshaim 5a); and the gospel writers remove any possible confusion by saying specifically what they mean: the day could only be Nisan 14, for the expressions they use confirm this.

In Mark 14:12 the writer defines the first day of the feast as the day when the lambs were killed:

And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?” … And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover. And when it was evening he came with the twelve (Mark 14:12-17, RSV).

The Greek expression used is to pascha ethuon. Ethuon is the third person plural imperfect active of thuo, to kill in sacrifice, sacrifice, immolate. So the verb used is in the imperfect. What are the implications of this?
The imperfect indicative represents an action as going on in past time (durative, or linear action in past time),- this action may be simultaneous, prolonged, descriptive, repeated, customary, interrupted, attempted, or begun, according to the context and the meaning of the verb itself. This is how, for instance, the NIV translates the passage:

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” (NIV).

Thus it can be concluded that the day on which the Passover lamb was being sacrificed by the Jews was Thursday. Therefore, Thursday must necessarily be Nisan 14.
There is another passage that should be considered:

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. (Luke 22:7, RSV).

The emphatic language of Luke 22:7, “had to, must” is translated from the Greek word edei, third person singular, imperfect of deo (dei is an impersonal verb meaning “it is necessary”), which means to bind, that is, to put under obligation, of law, duty, etc.; to bind by a legal or moral tie; to be necessary, proper, inevitable, binding, obligatory, as defined in Greek Lexicons.

Notice that it was the disciples who asked Christ where the Passover should be prepared, which implies they were doing what everybody else was doing. There is nothing in these texts indicating that Jesus observed the Passover on a different occasion from the Jewish people in general.

Had not Christ observed the law in every particular, He could not be our Savior. The Bible says: “It is written, ‘Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them’” (Gal. 3:10).

I appreciate your post, Rosangela, however the little part above still leaves questions with me. Would you perhaps be speaking of Thursday night? If so, you are actually meaning "Friday," aren't you? Because after sunset, the next day has begun according to the Bible...none of this "midnight" delimitation of days such as we have now.

Of course, Jesus died on Friday (the preparation day--see Luke 23:54).

Mrs. White also tells us the moon was full that Thursday night (the evening of the preparation day) in Gethsemane.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle, you said,



Then you said,


On which day was the Passover eaten?

GC, I'm not sure I understood your question. The paschal lamb was sacrificed after 12 p.m. on Nisan 14 and eaten after sunset, that is, on Nisan 15. So Jesus would have eaten the Passover on Thursday after sunset, was arrested around midnight and died on Friday (Nisan 15).

I think those were my quotes, Rosangela.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sorry, GC and Elle, for the confusion. GC, it seems you said in one of your posts that you no longer believe Christ died on a Nisan 14?

I'm simply not an expert on this topic, Rosangela, and am looking for the answers. Some websites claim Nisan 15 was the Passover, not 14. I simply do not know, I guess.

What I am still convinced of is that Jesus died on a Friday, and that said Friday was Passover. That much I know. I also know that it was either in 30 AD or 31 AD as we would count it now. It is not possible for it to have been 33 AD as many are now trying to say, because it would not fulfill the messianic prophecies, nor those of Daniel.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This book examines in detail the 2300-day prophecy in its starting and finishing date, as well as in the date of Christ's death (middle of the 70th week):

http://www.iasdcentralfortaleza.com.br/Cronological_Studies_Daniel_9.pdf

The Bible says:

"Take care of them [the Passover lambs] until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight" (Exod. 12: 6).

What does the expression “at twilight” (Exod. 12: 6) mean?

Deut. 6: 5, 6 also says: "You must not sacrifice the Passover in any town the Lord your God gives you except in the place He will choose as a dwelling for His name. There you must sacrifice the Passover in the evening, when the sun goes down, on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt."

The expression “in the evening, when the sun goes down” in Deut. 16: 6 is sometimes interpreted to mean or to state that the Passover lamb was killed after sunset, and the expression “at twilight” (“between the two evenings”) is understood to mean the short period of time between sunset and nightfall. However, this is not the case.

How are these expressions understood by Jewish writers?
A Jewish commentary says:

At twilight. Hebrew bein ha-`arbayim, literally means “between the two settings.” Rabbinic sources take this to mean “from noon on.” [Mish. Pes. 5:1 and Pes 58a imply that the slaughtering took place from 2:30 p.m.] According to Radak, the first “setting” occurs when the sun passes its zenith just after noon and the shadows begin to lengthen, and the second “setting” is the actual sunset. Josephus testifies that the paschal lamb was slaughtered in the Temple between 3 and 5 P. M. [Wars 6.9.3].

"The Lord's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work" (Leviticus 23:5-7).

It must be borne in mind that “at twilight” in verse 5 must necessarily mean some time before sunset, since at sunset the fifteenth day of the month, that is, the first day of Unleavened Bread, began.

As can be seen from 2 Chron. 35:1-19, in the Passover celebrated at the time of Josiah the levites and priests sacrificed and roasted thousands of animals till nightfall, therefore they must have begun doing that some hours before sunset. This confirms that the Passover lamb was really sacrificed on the fourteenth, before sunset.

But we don't even know when the year starts.

Which "Passover"? In Jesus' day, how many "Passovers" were being celebrated?

They began the month with the first sighting of the new crescent moon and they began the year with the ripeness of the barley crop in Israel (called in the Bible “abib”). They used the checking of the barley crops in Israel to determine if it was necessary or not to add an intercalary month before the first month, so that the barley was ripe enough for the sheaf to be waved during the Passover week (Lev. 23:10-14).

I don't see any evidence that there were many "Passovers" being celebrated.
The Passover and the other appointed feasts of the Lord were proclaimed feasts, that is, they should be proclaimed in their seasons to the people (see Lev. 23:2, 4, 21, 37). And this was done by the Sanhedrin. Jesus told the Jews: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not” (Matt. 23: 1-3). In spite of their hypocrisy, they did have authority from God, and the religious calendar is a good example of that authority.

I really don't understand your point Rosangela. Could you clarify?

Let's compare the NASA data of 33 CE with the data of 31 CE with your proposed first crescent sighting and Roy Hoffman's.

Data for 33 CE.

a) Moon Conjuction -- Thu Mar 19, 33 CE: the conjunction of the moon is on Thursday, Mar 19th at 10:38 Universal Time(UT) according to NASA.

b) First Crescent Visibility -- Fri 20 Mar : Roy Hoffman's software with his complex algorithm produced as data that the first crescent should be visible on the night of Friday the 20th(the beginning of the 21st day according to Jewish recognition of a day).

c) Nisan 1 -- Sat 21st Mar : Therefore Nisan 1 start to be counted on March 21st.

d) Nisan 14 -- Fri 3rd Apl 33 CE:

e) Full moon -- Fri 3rd Apl 33 CE (NASA) : Therefore Roy Hoffman’s Data correlate with NASA’s data as Nisan 14 fall on the Full moon date that NASA reported.

Data for 31 CE.

a) Moon Conjunction -- Tue Apr 10 , 31 CE at 11:32 (UT) : According to NASA.

b) First Crescent Visibility -- Thu Apl 12 (Rosangela) and Wed Apr 11, 31 CE(Hoffman) : You suggest that according to Schaefer that the R = 0.9 (less than 1 equal hard to see) for the night of the 11th. Therefore you propose that it was spotted the next evening Thu Apr 12.

c) Nisan 1 -- Fri Apl 13th (Rosangela) or Thu Apl 12th (Hoffman)

d) Nisan 14 -- Thu Apl 26th (Rosangela) or Wed Apl 25th (Hoffman) : first of all your data still doesn’t produce a Nisan 14 on a Friday. You are a day short.

e) Full Moon -- Wed Apl 25th 31 CE (NASA): NASA’s data correlates with Hoffman’s first crescent sighting probability and not Schaefer’s.

The problem with your desperate attempt to make 31CE fulfill prophesy is :

1. The astronomical reality is that Nisan 14th and the Full Moon(NASA) was on Wednesday and not on a Thursday as you suggest.

2. The prophetic Type and Law was that Christ was to die on Nisan 14th and not on a Nisan 15th.

Obvious Conclusion : Friday Apl 3, 33 CE is the only date between 30 CE and 33 CE that Nisan 14th fall on a Friday. See my table on page 2 Jesus Potential Crucifixion dates Table for the year between 30-33 CE and NASA's DATA that I published here

This is not the only data(astronomical and historical) that points to a 33 CE crucifixion date. There was a lunar eclipse that happened during apl 3rd, 33 CE after 3pm reported by NASA. But nothing is reported in 31 CE on the day or anywhere close by that Rosangela propose. Plus, the data around Jesus' Birth, and beginning of ministry also harmonizes with a 33 CE crcifixion date and does not support31 CE.

Elle,

I still think you may be looking in the wrong place or at the wrong data. When I examine closely NASA's data, I find that 30 AD does indeed have a valid spot on the timeline.

Take a closer look. Especially, examine the time for the full moon. According to one online sunset calculator, for the year AD 30, the sun set at the exact hour of 18:00 (6 pm) on Thursday, April 6, in Israel. Now compare to the date of the full moon. According to NASA, the full moon is at: Apr 6, 19:42. In other words, the full moon is rising on the night of Thursday, which equals the Biblical "sixth day" of the week, i.e. Friday. If Nisan 14 is supposed to be Friday, then in AD 30 there was just such a day. The full moon would have risen over an hour and a half past sundown, probably just about the time Jesus was walking to the Garden of Gethsemane, having already eaten the Last Supper in the upper room.

As I was saying earlier on, the distinction between Biblical days and our modern reckoning can easily throw us off the track of truth. Such seems the case here, where the full moon was on "Friday."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ok I see what your saying GC. It appears to be a valid point. Let's take 6 April 30 CE as a possibility for now.

We can proceed with other data if you, or anyone else, feel comfortable with that. We can get back to your other post about Tiberius, and I also wanted to get back to Rosangela about the passover meal, but I think I won't have time until Sabbath.

You may not be paying attention to what I'm saying. I've never defended a Nisan 14 on a Friday for the year 31 A.D.


First of all, it's no desperate attempt at all.


???
Didn't I say that a lunar month could have 29 or 30 days and that both possibilities must be considered in this case for the previous month (Schaefer's article and all that)? And, by the way, full moon is a lunar phase which lasts roughly seven days. So, Passover would generally fall close to this phase (since the month begins with the new moon), but not necessarily on the first day of the full moon.

The time interval between similar lunar phases—the synodic month—averages about 29.53 days. Therefore, in those lunar calendars in which each month begins on the new moon, the full moon falls on either the 14th or 15th of the lunar month. Because lunar months have a whole number of days, lunar months may be either 29 or 30 days long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_moon


Please read my post #139933 and reply to it. Thank you.

Maybe I should have emphasized "we". But even back then, I believe there was discrepancies.

But what do you make of the commentary then? I forget where I was reading it, but it was in the front section of a volume and I think it was regarding Jesus' date of death.

The Sanhedrin sent official observers to stand on vantage points at sunset on the 29th of a month, and they scanned the western sky. If the crescent moon was spotted, the Sanhedrin would proclaim the Feast of the New Moon. If it wasn't, the Feast would be proclaimed on the next day. The temple priests verified if the barley had reached the stage of "abib" in order to determine if the year was going to begin or if an intercalary month had to be added.


The SDABC, for instance, assumes the untenable position that Christ died on a Nisan 14 in 31 A.D. The insistence on the idea that Christ died on a Nisan 14, which cannot be sustained by the synoptic gospels, led them to suggest that perhaps there were different groups observing the Passover on different days at Christ's time.

I found it again on pages 532-537 of Vol 5 and a reference to 248-264 for the date of His death.

Were there different groups observing the Passover on different days at Christ's time? The Pharisees vs. the Boethusian Saducees?

Yes, I see you're trying to prove that Jesus died on Nisan 15th. However, what do you do with Ellen White writings that confirms that Jesus died on Nisan 14th in fulfilling prophesy in the appointed time?


There's no room for extending a day in March 31AD as on the night of the 13th the moon visibility rate was easy to see by 100% giving it was not cloudy. However, you are taking the month of April which the moon conjuction is 1 day later, and the probability to see the first crescent on the Wednesday was not difficult according to Roy Hoffman's calculation having a 73% chance of being seen. However, let's give you that extra day in case it was cloudy and most moon observers was not on their post. So this would extend Nisan 14th to a Thursday instead of a Wednesday in the month of April.


The data that NASA provides concerning full moon is not the first day of the full moon. It is when the moon is totally full which doesn't last for 7 days.


I appreciate this clarification. As I was going through Roy Hoffman's software to note the calculated ease of visibility rate and reproducing many calendars; I came to see that it does occur on the 15th at times.

AV Ex 12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

However, here’s a comment from a SDA that I believe has lots of soundness and talks in accordance to the Spirit of the Torah :


A. There is no way Jesus could of eaten the Passover meal on the night of Nisan 15th with His disciples because He knew He was going to be killed. This is what you would classify a “legitimate extenuated circumstance”.

If you read Num 9:6-14 here is another “legitimate extenuated circumstance” where the Lord gives a second opportunity for men to keep the Passover on the second month instead of the first. However, if you read carefully, the lamb still needed to be slain on the 14th day of that 2nd month.

B. The eating of the Passover lamb(or unleavened bread in the NT) was to be fulfilled by the believer yearly; whereas, the lamb that was to be slain could only be fulfilled once by Jesus alone. The slain lamb (Jesus) was the foundation of the whole Passover Feast(Nisan 14 when lamb ws slain, Nisan 15-21 of unleavened bread, and the wave sheaf day).

• The eaten of it was to be practice as a memorial, on the night of the 15th day of Nisan by the believer as a gesture of faith. This feast to be a 7 day feast is to emphasize of the continual aspect in daily eating Jesus unleavened flesh and blood. This is the spirit of the Torah that is practice by the believer on a continual basis.
• Whereas, the Antitype meets the Type of the Passover lamb, was only done on one day in the whole world history. For sure Jesus sacrifice covers and extends all time of earth history. But the fulfillment was done only by Christ, one time,on a specific appointed day according to the Law. To concile scripture with history, Pilate was governor of Judea from 30 AD to 36 AD. So Jesus had to be crucifixed sometime between those years by which Nisan 14th fell on a Friday on 30AD and 33AD.

According to Torah, the first day of unleavenened bread was on the night of Nisan 15th.

AV Lv 23:6 “And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].”

The feast of unleavened bread was a 7 day feast that started after the lamb was killed in the night of 14/15th Day. It was not a 8 days feast. I understand that it can be express in that way since Nissan 14th was a preparation day of the feast of unleavened bread and people could of counted that as a day. However, to be very specific and technically speaking, the feast of unleavened bread started on the night of the 14th/15th which is Nisan 15th. Nisan 14th was a preparation day and the last day people had to remove all the leaven from their house so they wouldn’t be cut out of the congregation, and had to kill the lamb before sundown.

Nisan 15th was the 1st day of unleavened bread that was a type of Sabbath day with no work allowed. Nisan 21st was the 7th day of unleavened bread which was another Sabbath day. The fact that Nisan 15th happened on an actual 7th day Sabbath, that’s why scripture referred to that day as a Hi-Sabbath because a convocation Sabbath day happened on a 7th day Sabbath.



The “on” word is an added word in that translation. If that day was actually “on” the first day of unleavened bread, then that would have been on a Nisan 15th which would have been too late to do any “preparation” for it. This erroneous translation makes the purpose of the disciples question nil as it makes no sense to prepare a meal when the day has already arrived to eat it. You don’t prepare for Sabbath on the Sabbath day do you?



The problem with your emphasis and scripture selection, is assuming that 1) that Nisan 14 is the first day of unleavened bread, and 2) that the english translations you picked implies that it was already the first day of unleavened bread which makes no sense for the question to prepare for it, if it already came.

Let’s take Mt 26:17 to clarify the matter.

YLT Mt 26:17 . And [on](an added word) the first day of the unleavened food came(proselthon, comes from the word proserchomai, meaning to approach. This word is literally translated in the interlinear as “toward came” or “approached” however many Bibles have translated it as “came”. ) the disciples near to Jesus, saying to him, 'Where wilt thou that we may prepare for thee to eat the passover?'

So the word “proselthon” means that the day of unleavened bread was approaching. It could have been one day or two days ahead. With the approaching important first day of unleavened bread with no work, then it makes sense that the disciples would inquire beforehand to make the necessary preperation for it.

But note that there is no mention of eating a lamb at that Passover meal.

Here are the “circumstantial applications” to the Passover Jesus did :
1) no lamb killed;
2) adding the wine;
3)no blood painted on the lintel;
4)no eating standing up with staff in the hand;
5)no staying in the house all night;
6)added foot washing;
7)with family in the faith instead family in the household.

Here is what He preserve from the original
1)make preperation, to remove all leaven from the place
2)eat unleavened bread

We, like the Jews, tend to read and keep the letter of the law without knowing the spirit (intend) of the law according to the Father’s heart and mind. Whereas Jesus knew the intent of the LAW for He’s the one that gave it and He knows how to apply it in all circumstances without breaking it and removing one "iota" from it and fulfill it all.

Yes they ask, and it was "behoving" of them to keep this feast as customary. However, they ask before Nisan 14th because the night of Nisan 13/14th Jesus was arrested.

It is not unreasonable to ask this question on Nisan 13th considering it was a big important feast that required extensive preparation in removing all the leaven in the house. That means the house or room had to be thoroughly cleaned from head to toe. However, what the disciple didn't know that the Antitype was about to be fulfilled and therefore circumstances on how to keep the feast was about to change too.

If at Jesus time it became customary to also refer to Nisan 14th as the feast of unleavened bread, then it was only a way of expression. They all knew that according to the law the first day of unleavened bread was on Nisan 15th as the law is very clear on that.

In conclusion, Matt. 26:17, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 is all refer to the “first day of the unleavened food” which was a referal of Nisan 15 that was to be kept like a Sabbath day with no work allowed. Many translation has added the word “on” to imply it was the first day of the unleavened bread when the disciple ask the question; however this defeat the question logic. Why ask to prepare for it, if the day has already come.

So, am I correct in gathering that Elle and Rosangela have now both found Nisan 15 as the proper day for Christ to have been crucified?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle, it's clear this applied to the Passover in Egypt. They had to stay inside their houses until the morning because the firstborns would die if they were outside. In the subsequent Passovers this obviously didn't happen.


He knew He was going to be killed and so He couldn't have eaten the Passover on Nisan 15? Sorry, I didn't understand the logic of this.


The Passover lamb couldn't be slain on the 11th, on the 12th, on the 13th, on the 15th - it had to be slain on the 14th, and eaten on the 15th.


It's clear in the Bible that the gospel writers are referring to the 14th as the first day of unleavened bread, for they say that this was the day on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.


They prepared the Passover on the Passover day - the lamb could only be prepared (slain and roasted) on that day. And the Passover day, at Christ's time, was evidently called "the first day of unleavened bread."


The verb translated as "came" here refers to the disciples, not to the day.
Besides, Luke's testimony refutes what you've just said.

Luke 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near [eggizo], which is called Passover.
Luke 22:7 Then came [erchomai] the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed.

Notice the difference in Luke's words. In v. 1 he says the feast was approaching, and in v. 7 he says the day had arrived (erchomai, not proserchomai). Notice also that he says that "the Feast of Unleavened Bread ... is called Passover."


There is the mention that the lamb was prepared, so obviously they ate the lamb.

Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?"


???
Jesus observed the Passover on the right day, and was arrested on the night of the 15th.

I'm afraid this is not the case in relation to Elle, GC.

Whaa? Not the first day of the full moon? You gonna haf ta splain that statement.

My reply was in relation to Rosangela's statement that she made in post #139948. I wasn't agreeing with it or dissagreeing with it, I was just refering to what she had said and only clarifying NASA's data which was not the first day of the full moon phase if such a thing existed.

Rosangela, I never heard of that either, could you explain and give your source?

Sorry, I stand corrected. I was considering the period from one primary phasis (New Moon, First Quarter, Full Moon, Last Quarter) to the next one, when in fact, technically speaking, the intermediate periods are considered intermediate phases (Waxing Crescent, Waxing Gibbous, Waning Gibbous, Waning Crescent). The Full Moon is considered to be the phasis which covers the period when the moon reaches 99% of illumination until it is 100% illuminated and decreases to 99% of illumination again, which takes about 45 hours:

http://astro.unl.edu/naap/lps/animations/lps.html

So, from the Full Moon to the Third Quarter or Last Quarter we have roughly 8 days, but the Full Moon lasts only about 2 days and the Waning Gibbous lasts about 6 days.

It is still clearly instructed in the Law to not leave the house until morning. Who can pick and choose what part of G-d’s instructions in the Law to follow and to not follow? Only the Spirit of G-d has that authority. Human logic should not be given this authority. It is something to inquire before making any conclusion. G-d could require us to keep that part of the law as a reminder to what effect the blood justify us each year.


??? You either don’t believe Jesus knew beforehand that he was going to die that Passover, or maybe you don’t understand the order -- first the lamb is killed then after the passover is eaten.


I agree, and that’s what Num 9:6-14 says those men that missed the passover on the first month should do on the second month-- according to the same instructions of the first month.

However, what I don’t understand is that your contradicting yourself. Aren’t you trying to prove that Jesus died on Nisan 15th??? Please clarify?


No, it’s not clear. First it is against plain instruction in the Law of Moses which says the first day of unleavened bread is on Nisan 15th. Second it defeat the question of preperation and planing for it before the day came. It is what the English translation is implying by adding the word “on” and chosing to formulate the sentence as what they thought it should say. Translators has done many other mistakes.


I re-read the text in Scripture4all and you are right. That verb does refer to the disciples. I appreciate you pointing this out to me.

In v.1, “the approaching” very well means they were still like a week away, whereas in v. 7 “ it has arrived” meaning it’s only 1 or 2 days away and we need to plan about doing the necessary preparation. This is in harmony with the essence and soundness of the question of the disciple. You do not do the preparation on the day you eat of it. It makes no sense. Especially Nisan 15th, the day to eat the passover lamb was a yearly Sabbath day. It was unlawful to do any work on that day.

Preparations was customarily done prior.
....1. So they had to make plans where they were going to eat,
....2. make arrangement for the place,
....3. clean thorougly the place up in removing all leaven,
....4. go buy or get unleavened bread and wine and whatever else needed.
....5. probably dress for the occasion.

You don’t do all those things on the very same day, especially a Sabbath type of day, when you are to eat of it. Makes no sense Rosangela. Having 2 days preperation time is not unreasonable for such an important feast day.

Regarding terminology, Passover is both used as a general term that encapsulate the 3 sub-events (lamb killed, Unleavened bread, first-fruit waving) or referred to the one meal out of the 7 days of unleavened bread where they ate the lamb. No leftovers was allowed to be kept. If they couldn’t eat the whole lamb, then all remaining had to be burned before sunrise. Then they ate unleavened bread for the remaining 6 days.

That one meal(with Paschal lamb customary eaten on the evening of Nisan 15th according to the Law) coincided with the first day of unleavened bread; so it is understandable that these terms would of been used interchangeably. So context, knowing the law, and common sense will tell you the true meaning of the sentence.


Just because the disciple ask the question according to their customs not knowing that Jesus was going to be that actual Paschal lamb the next day; it is a pure speculation to say that Jesus instructed them to prepare a lamb. There’s no mention that Jesus gave such instruction and there’s no mention that they ate the lamb at the meal.

Since, we all know that Jesus was the lamb that was going to be killed and He did give instructions how to apply the passover feast according to the coming age after the cross where He fulfill that part of the Law while preserving the spiritual intend of the Law. It is easily conclusive that it would be contradictory in purpose and in the instructions of the new way to keep the Passover-- to have a lamb at that meal like in the former way. However, it cannot be proven one way or the other.


??? Three major problems with your conclusion :

Problem #1 : It contradicts that the lamb needed to be killed on Nisan 14 between the two evenings (before sunset Nisan 14th/15th)

Problem #2 : It contradicts what EGW said that Jesus was killed on Friday, Nisan 14 according to the appointed time of the Law.

Problem #3: By saying that Jesus was killed Friday Nisan 15th , then Sabbath Nisan 16th wouldn’t of been a high Sabbath as specified in scripture, because Nisan 16th was not a feast’s Sabbath. Therefore, Nisan 15th has to fall on Sabbath to be a Hi-Sabbath.

That some details in the original ritual were modified is clear from other accounts of Passovers in the Scriptures. For instance, in the original ritual the people killed the lambs, but later we see the levites killing the lambs (2 Chron. 35:6; Ezra 6:20). Also, at the Passover in Egypt they had to eat standing, but the whole Jewish tradition says that, since only slaves ate standing, they used to eat the Passover lying along on couches in order to commemorate their liberty (for sources, see John Gill's commentary on Matt. 26:20) - which confirms the account of the gospels.


He knew He was going to die during that Passover season, yes - but see below for comments on the day.


As I said in one of my first posts, Jesus was the antitype of the sacrifices presented in all the feasts - Pentecost, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles - not just in the Passover. This doesn't mean He had to die on the same day these sacrifices were offered. Besides, Christ was the antitype both of the Passover lamb, which was sacrificed on the 14th, and of the unleavened bread, which was broken and eaten on the 15th. The emblems Christ left us in remembrance of His sacrifice were connected not to Nisan 14, but to Nisan 15.


Elle, the accounts speak for themselves:

Matt. 26:
17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the passover?"
18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.’"
19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the passover.
20 When it was evening, [at sunset] he sat at table with the twelve disciples

Mark 14:
12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?"
13 And he sent two of his disciples, and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him,
14 and wherever he enters, say to the householder, ‘The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?’
15 And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; there prepare for us."
16 And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.
17 And when it was evening [at sunset] he came with the twelve.

Luke 22:
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8 So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the passover for us, that we may eat it."
9 They said to him, "Where will you have us prepare it?"
10 He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him into the house which he enters,
11 and tell the householder, ‘The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?’
12 And he will show you a large upper room furnished; there make ready."
13 And they went, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.
14 And when the hour came, [at sunset] he sat at table, and the apostles with him.

What preparation was there to do? The slaying of the lamb and its roasting, and this could only be done on the 14th. Besides, prote ton azumon can only mean "on the first day of unleavened bread" - there is no other possible translation.


The verb is in the aorist indicative, which means that it refers to a punctiliar action which has already happened. You can't say that "came" means "will come in 1 or 2 days." And again, all the preparation was done on the 14th - the Bible is clear about that. (By the way, on the ceremonial sabbath days everything related to the preparation of food could be done.)


Jesus instructed them to prepare the Passover, which meant to prepare a lamb - there was no Passover without a lamb.


No, it doesn't contradict that. The typical lamb was killed on Nisan 14. Jesus observed the last Passover that was ever to be observed and in its place instituted the Communion service. As I said previously, Jesus, the antitypical Lamb, didn't have to die on a Nisan 14.


No, it doesn't contradict what Ellen White said. She said:

In the upper chamber of a dwelling at Jerusalem, Christ was sitting at table with His disciples. They had gathered to celebrate the Passover. The Saviour desired to keep this feast alone with the twelve. He knew that His hour was come; He himself was the true paschal lamb, and on the day the Passover was eaten he was to be sacrificed. DA 642


What does the expression "high day" (John 19:31) mean? How can someone know for sure? Some understand this expression to mean that the Passover Sabbath (Nisan 15) in that year fell on the weekly Sabbath. It could mean this. But this expression can equally mean that in that year there were two Sabbaths, one after the other: the Passover (ceremonial) Sabbath of Nisan 15, followed by the weekly regular Sabbath.
And another possible meaning for the expression “that Sabbath day was a high day” is simply that that Sabbath was special because it was the Sabbath of the Passover Week. Thus, the NIV translates John 19:31 in this way: “Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath.” So, there are three possible interpretations for this expression.

When the Lord applies the law differently because of circumstances, the changes made has authority. Despite I agree that probably that we shouldn’t eat the passover standing up with the staff, it is irrelevant what I think. My point still stand that no man’s logic has authority to cherry pick in the Law what to keep or what not to keep unless He has inquired of the Lord and received an answer from the Lord. Only then the answer has authority.

Jesus often rebuked the Jews of following traditions of men. When man takes authority to change the law without inquiring or receiving instruction from the Lord; it becomes traditions of men.


Rosangela, the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled exactly at the appointed time – at Pentecost when the 40 gathered in the upper room and received the earnest deposit of the Spirit.

The Day of Atonement is still not fulfilled and only will be fulfilled at the 2nd coming when Jesus will come with his vesture dipped in blood(figure of the second dove whose was dipped by the blood of the first dove and of Joseph whose coat was dipped in the blood of goat) on a white horse.


The cross (death of Jesus) is the foundation work that all the rest of the feasts rest on. Now you are elevating the unleavened bread above the cross to support a crucifixion date of Nisan 15th when the unleavened bread has no meaning without the cross??? Be careful!


No it doesn’t. Again the “on” is added, and it makes no sense to prepare for a day that has already came.

There was lots of preperation as it was a very important feast. The most time consuming preperation is to remove all the leaven in the house. If that wasn’t done, they were cut off. On the 14th, typically was the last day to finish all preperations and yes, they had to roast that lamb on that day as customary. However, I do not believe that Jesus instructed the disciples to do that, but that cannot be proven whether He did or not as it is not specified.

And cleaning one room is not as time consuming as cleaning a house. However, they didn’t know what Jesus was going to answer and they might of had to go to someones else’s house, therefore it is reasonable to ask the question 2 days ahead.

You do not plan a big event the same day of the event. I’m sure you don’t plan Christmas on the day of Christmas. Some people plan and do preperation months ahead, however the cleaning of the house start at least a week prior depending how well you maintain your house. And the cooking, you start days ahead too.


There’s no “on” in prote ton azumon.


The aorist is the most vague verb tense there is.


The term Passover is either used to refer to the feast, or to the lamb. It is mostly used in reference to the feast in the Bible.

BTW. As I was looking at all the verses in the Bible with Passover, I found this interesting verse that makes very clear that Jesus, when he was at trial, it is mentioned that day was the preperation day of the passover (Nisan 14th).

Jhn 19:13- 14 “When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Jesus died on the preparation of the passover which was Nisan 14th between the two evenings according to the appointed time indicated in the law.

See Jhn 19:14 text given above. Jesus died on Nisan 14th.


Maybe you missed these quotes :

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. GC 399

-“between the two evenings” at the very time the Passover lamb had been slain for centuries. The previous evening He had eaten the last supper with His disciples. The Saviour rested in the tomb on the Sabbath, the 15th day of Nisan, which had been kept as an annual sabbath in type of this event. “Christ was the antitype of the wave-sheaf, and His ressurection took place on the very day when the wave-sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.”-The Desire of Ages, 785.

David and Solomon and other prophets, inspired by God, gave instructions in relation to the temple services and to the feasts, which are not registered in detail in the Scriptures, but which evidently introduced some changes, owing to the change of circumstances. So, the Jewish tradition is important in this case because it confirms the account of the gospels. In Jesus's time the Passover was no longer eaten standing. Also, Jesus and the disciples did not remain the whole night inside the house.


The Passover was also fulfilled exactly at the appointed time, however, in the Passover there were several symbols which pointed to Christ (the lamb, the bread, the sheaf), and specifically, two which pointed to His death - the lamb and the bread. However, He chose the latter as a symbol of His death.


???
Above the cross? You should be careful! This is the symbol Jesus Himself chose to symbolize His sacrifice on the cross - the broken bread.


Elle, have you ever studied Greek? If the meaning was other than "on the first day of unleavened bread," another Greek word must necessarily be added to indicate that.


The Bible account is clear that "they prepared the Passover" (Matt. 26:19; Mark 14:16; Luke 22:13). This is three times repeated.


It generally describes a past action if the mood is the indicative, like here. But one thing is sure - that it does not denote that the day of unleavened bread was approaching, for then another verb would have been used. It says that the day "came" and it can't be translated as "was drawing near," as you wish.


I agree that it can refer to the feast, but the reference of the synoptics is to the lamb.

Mark 14:12 And the first day of the unleavened food, when they were killing the passover, his disciples say to him, ‘Where wilt thou, that, having gone, we may prepare, that thou mayest eat the passover?’ (YLT)

It's clear here - the first day of the unleavened bread was when they killed the lambs.

Luke 22:7 And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed (YLT)


Nowhere in the Bible can you find that - that Nisan 14 is "the preparation of the Passover." Nisan 14 is the Passover. It was a Friday, and Friday was the day of preparation for the Sabbath. Because it was the Passover week, John calls it the Passover preparation day.
The New International Version correctly translates this verse as follows: “It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. ‘Here is your king,’ Pilate said to the Jews” (John 19:14).


No, I didn't miss them. Ellen White said in the other quote that Christ would be sacrificed on the day the Passover was eaten. In the GC quote it must be borne in mind that time is passing as we advance from the time the lamb is slain to the time the lamb is eaten. During the passage of time we go from the fourteenth to the fifteenth, as the sun sets. Then she says that Christ, "having eaten the Passover" with His disciples, instituted the Communion service. I can't believe Christ transgressed the law of the Passover eating it on the wrong day.


Sure. And on which day was the sheaf waved?
In the festal calendar of Lev. 23 is found the phrase mohorat hassabbat, “morrow after the sabbath” (vv. 11. 15f.). This day is designated as the day for waving a sheaf as part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Does the word "sabbath" in this phrase refers to one of the days of the feast (the first or the last?) or to a seventh-day sabbath within the festival period? For the Pharisees, “the Sabbath” referred to the first day of Passover, and the 50th day was therefore always 6 Sivan. The Sadducees and later the Karaites understood the term “Sabbath” in its literal sense, so that the counting began on the Sunday of Passover week; thus the date was variable but the holiday would always fall on a Sunday. If Pentecost had a fixed date, why is it that it is the only festival for which no specific date is given in the Bible? The King James Version translates the text in the following way: “And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete.” If we accept that the word “sabbath” means ceremonial sabbath, we come across a serious problem, because there is only one ceremonial sabbath, and not seven, between Nisan 15 and the fiftieth day (Pentecost), namely, Nisan 21. To avoid this, the Rabbinical Jews have to interpret the word “sabbath” in two different ways in the very same verse! They argue that the first sabbath mentioned is none other than the 15th of Nisan, and that here the word “sabbath” means holy day (ceremonial Sabbath). But, in their view, the meaning of “seven sabbaths,” at the end of the verse is seven weeks, and the word “sabbath” in this context means seven days!

Finally, I would like to point out that Christ died at the hour of the evening sacrifice - 3 p.m.

I agree that some of the Jewish traditions are important, however much were “traditions of men” as Jesus often rebuked them. Since much details of the changes of the feasts are not recorded in scriptures, then as Christians it is our duty to inquire of the Lord what modification, additions, subtractions are His and what are traditions of men. If we didn’t receive any answers right away, that’s fine to follow what we currently think how to keep the feast. However, we shouldn’t be conclusive about it and be honest sharing tht "this is what I think but haven’t received confirmation from the Lord". At each feast keeping the Lord will enlighten us a little at a time until we come to embrace the dept, width, breath knowing the mind and heart of the Lord behind each details of the feast.


??? You didn’t even address the nature of the discussion. Pentecost was not fulfilled at the cross, nor the day of atonement as what you believe.


I agreed that the broken bread symbolizes the body of Christ who died at the cross. But the cross was the actual Death of Jesus. Not a symbolism.

I have mentioned in a previous post to you that the fulfillment of the unleavened bread was done by the believer who ate the unleavened bread for 7 days. The unleavened bread feast is not fulfilled by Christ but by the believer, however His death was fulfilled by Him and is the foundation of all rituals. Without the cross, there is no unleavened bread symbolism for the believer to eat.

But this is what have you said Rosangela

You have said that He chose to fulfill His death on Nisan 15 for the reason that the eaten of the unleavened bread that was “the emblems of Christ left us in remembrance of His sacrifice”.

This is the same logic the catholic used to change the worship day to Sunday instead of Sathurday. They have elevated the day of his resurrection to validate the change of day of worship. You have done the same by elevating the first day of unleavened bread(a symbolism fulfilled by believers) more important than His death(the foundation fulfilled by Himself), to justify a change of the day of His death to be on a Nisan 15 contrary to all laws and soundness just to safe keep traditions of men(the SDA interpretation of the 70 weeks).

The cross is the foundation -- the center point —that validates any other components of any other feasts. The components have no meanings without the cross. The cross was the Antitype of the slaying of the lamb on Nisan 14th. The cross was not the Antitype of the 7 day Unleavened bread feast, nor The Pentecost, nor the Day of Atonement.


Look in your scripture4all software, there is no “on” word in the greek. The “on” is an added word by the translators.


Nowhere in the Bible written explicitly that Friday is the preparation day for Sabbath. It is inferred by the context of many texts indirectly, just like Nisan 14 as being the preparation day of 1st day of unleavened bread.

In the law, Nisan 14 is not considered as a convocation Sabbath day as opposed to Nisan 15th which is explictly and clearly given as a command not to do any work on that day. On Nisan 14th you needed to kill the lamb and cook it prior to Nisan 15th which both these activities are considered as “work”. The lamb was only eaten on the 15th with the unleavened bread. So it is inferred that you prepared the lamb before Nisan 15th convocation Sabbath day, which is exactly what we do for a typical weekly sabbath. A preparation day happens the day before the day of importance.

In John 19:14, John says very clearly that the day of Christ death was the preperation of the Passover. He did not say it was the Sabbath preparation day, as you are trying to make that text say. You are adding to the text what is not there. John was making a specific reference to the exact timing of the Passover so to be a written witness of the fulfillment of the prophecies in regard to Nisan 14th. Later down and with other gospel writings we know that day was a Friday which was also a preparation day for the Sabbath and then confirming the two Sabbaths coiinciding by saying that it was a hi-day.

Let’s recap your goal of all this argument.
....A. You’re trying to prove that Jesus ate the Passover on Thursday night(14-15 Nissan) April 26th 31AD, and
....B. that He died on the next day, Friday on Nisan 15th .

Jhn 19:14 says that Friday was the preperation day of the Passover which contradicts your trying to prove A. Wouldn’t you agree that it is impossible to have the preperation of the Passover one day after the passover was eaten? The conclusion is obvious, Jesus ate the passover one day earlier than the rest because He knew that at the time the passover is regularly eaten He would be dead.

Jhn 19:14 also contradicts your point B, because preparation day of the Passover is Nisan 14th, the day before the passover is normally eaten. That Friday was not Nisan 15th.



You can't believe that Jesus ate a passover which is to be fulflled by believers on the wrong day. But you can believed that He died on the wrong day which is the foundation of all Laws and rituals which He was suppose to fulfill Himself according to the law. Can't you see there is something wrong with your logic and where you want to put emphasis on.

Ah! You missed it again, I will increase the font of the part you missed.

-“between the two evenings” at the very time the Passover lamb had been slain for centuries. The previous evening He had eaten the last supper with His disciples. The Saviour rested in the tomb on the Sabbath, the 15th day of Nisan, which had been kept as an annual sabbath in type of this event. “Christ was the antitype of the wave-sheaf, and His ressurection took place on the very day when the wave-sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.”-The Desire of Ages, 785.

It is clear in this quote that EGW says that Jesus was in the tomb Sabbath Nisan 15th. This contradicts that Friday was Nisan 15th and both your point A & B.

Elle, the sacrifices of these feasts were fulfilled at the cross - all the sacrifices were fulfilled at the cross, as the cross is the foundation of all the events of salvation.


???
Elle, this argument does not make sense. There was an interaction between the believer and the symbols - the paschal lamb was also eaten. Both symbols were fulfilled by Christ and both symbols represented Christ's death on the cross. Now, as I pointed out previously, for Christ to fulfill the symbolism of the paschal lamb, He didn't have to die on the day the paschal lamb died. For instance, Christ fulfilled the symbolism of the goat for the Lord of the Day of Atonement (which means that the judgment is founded on Christ's sacrifice), but for this He didn't have to die on the 10th day of the 7th month.


Not at all. My reason for believing that Christ died on a Nisan 15 is that the Bible is clear that the disciples came to Jesus on the day that the Passover was being sacrificed/killed (Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7), and the Bible is clear that on that day the disciples prepared the Passover for Christ (Matt. 26:19, Mark 14:16, Luke 22:13), and the Bible is clear in saying that Christ ate the Passover:

Mark 14:14 and wherever he enters, say to the householder, ‘The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?’

Luke 22:11 and tell the householder, ‘The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?’

Luke 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer

The Bible is also clear that Christ couldn't have transgressed the law of the Passover without incurring a curse (Gal. 3:10). And what the law said was: “You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year” (Exod. 13:10). The argument you use is like the one which says that Christ transgressed the Sabbath because He was going to die and so would abolish it. What you are saying is that Christ transgressed the law of the Passover because He was going to die and so would not have time to eat it. In both cases, Christ is excused for breaking His Father's laws. But what Christ said was, "I have kept my Father's commandaments" (John 15:10). A sinner can't be a Savior.

There are indeed some apparent discrepancies on the gospel of John, but they can be explained to harmonize with the synoptics; on the other hand, what the synoptics state cannot be explained away.


The translators added the preposition "on" because not doing it would produce bad English grammar, but omitting the "on" in Greek was not bad Greek grammar. Besides, there is no other possible meaning. If the gospel writers meant that the day of unleavened bread was still ahead, either they had to use the verb eggizo (like in Luke 22:1), or the adverb eggus (like in John 2:13, 6:4, 7:2, 11:55), or the preposition pro (before), or the preposition peri (about, around, near). Otherwise nobody would understant that they meant that.


It's clearly said that the Day of Preparation is the day before the Sabbath (Mark 15:42). Besides, there are several other references in the gospels to the fact that that Friday was the Day of Preparation - obviously for the weekly Sabbath.


No, they weren't considered "work" on a ceremonial sabbath. The killing of sacrifices should be done every day, even on the weekly Sabbath and on ceremonial sabbaths, and, as I had said, the preparation of food was also permitted on ceremonial sabbaths:

Exodus 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly; no work shall be done on those days; but what every one must eat, that only may be prepared by you.

So, these things were indeed done on Nisan 14, not in "preparation" for the feast of unleavened bread, but because Nisan 14 was the Passover day. Anyway, previously your argument had been that Thursday couldn't have been Nisan 14 because these things had to be prepared much in advance and not in a single day (which is not true), and now you are saying that these things had to be done on Nisan 14 because Nisan 14 was the "preparation" for Passover. Which is it?


I think you haven't realized that these are someone else's words. Ellen White's words are those between the commas ("Christ was...").

Elle, in what way does Ellen White say we should observe the feast of tabernacles?

Rosangela, I appreciate you sharing your belief that Jesus died on Nisan 15. To be honest with you it was the first time I heard someone having that opinion. After reading several SDA website with their views on it, I see that the church is divided in half in this belief. Some believe as I do that Christ died on Nisan 14, and others as you do.

I feel we have started to go in circles. Since I have so much other things I want to look at and other discussion I want to participate in, I personally don’t want to engage in a cicular discussion. You have expressed your views and I mine.

However, I would like to look at other data that also define the time of Jesus death. So if there is some question in your post that you really want me to address, let me know and I will answer them for you. Then we can move forward. First, I need to answer Daryl a question in another discussion before coming back here.

Kland I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion. Could you just say what point you want to express.

In fact, this has been discussed among Christians of all faiths for centuries. Since the statements of the synoptics are a strong argument in favor of Nisan 15, the year 31 A.D. is a possibility for Christ's death - and the only one for those who don't disregard the information given in the synoptics.

For those who wish to go deeper into this subject (and in the 2300 days/70 weeks prophecy), I would recommend the book whose link for download is in my post #139948.

It was in response to your comment: