Jesus died our Second death.

I was privileged to witness something life changing.

I saw that the moment Jesus left the upper room and exited the Eastern Gate and crossed the brook Kidron on the east of Jerusalem, He was Jesus 'cut off' [Dan 9:26] from the Father. He was literally dying the second death, just as every person who is resurrected outside the New Jerusalem at the second resurrection will.

God gave me a vision then led me to all the proof I needed to learn more and see the meaning.

For three years I have been researching topics connected to the focus of my vision, Jesus fulfilling the Red Heifer sacrifice in Gethsemane, but in the process I discovered a little booklet from Joe Crews founder of Amazing Facts that perfectly illustrates why Jesus had to die the "Second Death".

The term Second death here means He died the death we all deserve, being cut off from the Father outside the Holy City. Our second death.

Here is an excerpt from this powerful pamphlet... The High Cost of the Cross...

Chapter 7 How the Cross Provides Forgiveness

But now we must consider another aspect of this heavenly drama which will further illuminate God's love and sacrifice. How does the death of one man, the second Adam, provide forgiveness for all who have sinned? The Bible says, "Without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins)." Hebrews 9:22. Remission, of course, means forgiveness. The question is, How does Christ's death make it possible for Him to forgive sin? This brings us to the crux of all we have learned so far. It was necessary for Jesus to suffer the second death in order to acquire the power to forgive.
The germ of all forgiveness is rooted in an act of substitution. Whoever forgives another person must actually substitute himself for the one he forgives, and be willing to suffer the consequences of the wrong done. For example, if I forgive someone a debt, I must be prepared to suffer the loss of the amount. If I forgive a blow, I must be willing to suffer the pain of it, without requiring the one who gave it to be punished.

Justice requires that every offender be recompensed in proportion to what he did: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. The one who gives a blow must also suffer an equal blow in return. Forgiveness, though, relieves the offender from receiving what he legally deserves. The forgiver accepts the consequence himself in order that the guilty one can go free without punishment. Thus there is clearly a substitution of the innocent for the guilty in every act of forgiveness.

As a further demonstration let us imagine that a murdered man could forgive his murderer from beyond the grave. He would, in effect, be consenting to his own death in order that the killer would not be punished. By accepting the results of the offense against him, he allows his own death to satisfy the penalty which could be legally laid upon the murderer.

This illustration brings us very close to the heart of the atonement. We are dealing here with the readjustment of a jarred relationship. That is what atonement really is. Two parties are always involved, the wronged and the wrongdoer. In this case it is God, the wronged, and man, the one who sins against Him. Justice demands an adequate expiation of the sin. Only two courses are possible: either justice will exact the prescribed penalty, or there must be forgiveness from the offended one. If forgiveness is extended, the forgiver will have to accept the consequences of the sin, and suffer it in place of the guilty. The penalty for sin is death. So in order to grant forgiveness to the sinner, Jesus must be willing to bear in His own body the same punishment that the broken law would demand of the sinner.

The punishment for sin is not the first death, but the second death. That is why the protracted agony of Jesus on the cross was totally unlike any other death. Thousands of criminals were crucified in the same physical way that Christ was nailed to the cross, but they suffered only the bodily pain of the first death. He experienced the awful condemnation and separation from God that the vilest of sinners will feel in the lake of fire. His sensitive nature was traumatized by sharing vicariously the guilt of foul rapes, murders, and atrocities. He became sin in order to allow the full wrath of the law to fall upon Him in exactly the same way it would fall upon the lost.

In no other way can we explain the mysterious anguish of spirit which surrounded our Saviour in His closing hours of life. From the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus bore the accumulated sins of mankind on His breaking heart. Not one ray of light was permitted to penetrate the blanket of total alienation from His Father in heaven. In order to take the place of guilty sinners and to provide forgiveness there could be no difference in their penalty and His penalty.

Let no one suggest that the Father did not suffer equally with His Son. The divine forbearance of God in allowing wicked men to torture His Son to death is the ultimate proof that He loves us with the same love that He loved Jesus. The choice He faced was very simple. He could spare the Son or He could spare us. There was no other choice. The law had been broken-the law which was holy and perfect. As a reflection of His character it could not be changed or destroyed. The penalty had to be paid. The Father loved those who had broken His law, but He also loved His Son.

Look again at the scene around that cross. God looked upon those wicked men as they spat upon Jesus and hit Him in the face with their fists. They were unworthy to touch the hem of His garment, but they were mauling Him to death. He held the power in His hand to smite those little men into oblivion. He could save His Son from cruel taunts and blows, but if He intervened not one human being would ever live again. Adam, Abraham Joseph, Daniel, and every other child of Adam would be lost for eternity. Their resurrection depended wholly upon the death and resurrection of His Beloved Son. In His omniscience God must have remembered every individual face and name, even of those who had not yet been born.

In that moment God thought about you and me. Even though He saw all our miserable failures He still wanted us to be with Him for eternity. He knew the great majority would not accept the offer of eternal life with Him, even though it would be provided at such a fearful cost. But He also knew that a few would love Him and gladly receive the substitutionary death of His Son in their behalf. So God turned away from His Son, and allowed Him to be crushed to death under the weight of sins He did not commit. Even the sun hid its face from the terrible scene, and the earth shuddered in protest. "It is finished," Jesus cried, and yielded up His life. John 19:30.



Here is the whole pamphlet. I have been shown that this writing is a very powerful tool in helping people understand how much God really loves us.

High Cost of the Cross

Here's the link for my vision of Jesus dying our second death for us. http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

Israel's sin at Beth-peor brought the judgments of God upon the nation, and though the same sins may not now be punished as speedily, they will as surely meet retribution. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy." 1 Corinthians 3:17. Nature has affixed terrible penalties to these crimes--penalties which, sooner or later, will be inflicted upon every transgressor. It is these sins more than any other that have caused the fearful degeneracy of our race, and the weight of disease and misery with which the world is cursed. Men may succeed in concealing their transgression from their fellow men, but they will no less surely reap the result, in suffering, disease, imbecility, or death. And beyond this life stands the tribunal of the judgment, with its award of eternal penalties. "They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God," but with Satan and evil angels shall have their part in that "lake of fire" which "is the second death." Galatians 5:21; Revelation 20:14. {PP 461.1}

God now calls upon you to repent, to be zealous in the work. Your eternal happiness will be determined by the course you now pursue. Can you reject the invitations of mercy now offered? Can you choose your own way? Will you cherish pride and vanity, and lose your soul at last? The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experience the second death. {2T 293.3}

Persecution has frightened many poor souls from the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel to the black banner of the great apostate. For the sake of this life, they transgress the law of God, and in that day when all transgressors are destroyed, they will be bound up with Satan to suffer the second death. But while persecution from those who worship at false shrines will cause some to yield up the truth, it will never induce a true child of God to separate from Christ, in whom his hopes of eternal life are centered. {RH, April 19, 1898 par. 15}

On either side of this beautiful river is the tree of life. And the redeemed saints, who have loved God and kept his commandments here, will enter in through the gates of the City, and have right to the tree of life. They will eat freely of it, as our first parents did before their fall. The leaves of that immortal wide-spread tree will be for the healing of the nations. All their woes will then be gone. Sickness, sorrow and death they will never again feel, for the leaves of the tree of life have healed them. Jesus will then see of the travail of his soul [Isaiah 53:11] and be satisfied, when the redeemed, who have been subject to sorrow, toil and afflictions, who have groaned beneath the curse, are gathered up around that tree of life to eat of its immortal fruit, that our first parents forfeited all right to, by breaking God's commands. There will be no danger of their ever losing right to the tree of life again, for he that tempted our first parents to sin, will be destroyed by the second death. {YI, October 1, 1852 par. 3}

Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus died the second death. Wherever the second death is mentioned Satan, the scapegoat, is the one who dies with (not for) the sins of the saved. Jesus "tasted death" as our substitute. He paid the sin debt of death for the entire world. He satisfied the death demands of law and justice on our behalf and thereby earned the right to pardon and save the penitent. But did He do it by succumbing to the second death? Or, did He do it by consuming and conquering it? Is He not the lawful owner of our sin and second death? And, is it not His duty to eliminate them with Satan in the lake of fire? Ellen wrote:


"Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do". Jesus earned the right to pardon and save the penitent before He died. Instead of the second death defeating Jesus, Jesus defeated the second death. He endured all that the second death could heap upon Him, but it wasn't enough to kill Him. He survived it and became our eternal Savior. Had Jesus succumbed to it, it would have owned Him. He would have remained in the grave forever. There is no resurrection from the second death.

No one or no thing killed Jesus. He voluntarily laid down His life, but not until after "He had accomplished the work which He came to do". Jesus said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." Jesus tasted, consumed, and conquered the cup of second death. He entered and existed the domain of death using the keys of hell and of death, thus demonstrating his victory over sin and death. In the end, Jesus will lay the sins of the saved upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat, who will die with their sins in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Wow, do you not know how the priest has to carry the sins to place them on the head of the scapegoat? Do you not know that two offerings were made, the one for the Lord and the scapegoat on the day of atonement? You make a pretty bold assertion after all the evidence I provided that I thought you read but obviously you didn't.

If you think you are so versed in the second death imagery can you tell me where it found in scripture? Why did Jesus sweat blood in Gethsemane? Why did He cry "why hast thou forsaken me Father" on the cross? How were the three days and three nights sign of Jonah fulfilled?

Here is a big clue brother... The Red Heifer. You will not understand.

Do you know the elements of the Atonement that you quoted about the scapegoat?

The 'strong man' who leads the scapegoat out the eastern gate over the bridge of the Red Heifer to the wilderness of forgetfulness are those filled with the Holy Spirit at the end of probation, proclaiming the loud cry, and leading Satan and his followers to perdition. The strong man are the 144,000 who find the path at the top of Mount Olives where the Miphkad Altar (Altar for the Red Heifer) stood. Miphkad means 'place of numbering' this is the place the 144,000 lead the scapegoat to the second coming when Christ is fully in us, the hope of glory.

Did you know any of this about the Atonement sacrifice of the scapegoat? But you assert your opinion in direct contrast to someone who has intensively studied this message since I received a vision?

Does that sound rational to you?

James, please take it easy. Be careful. State your view without insisting I am clueless or uninformed if I don't agree with you.

Tell me what you know of Atonement to make your case please.

You do know that the Scapegoat is part of atonement right?

Two goats were chosen on the Day of Atonement. Lots were cast to determine which one would die as the Lord's Goat and which one would serve as the Scapegoat. The blood of the Lord's Goat allowed the High Priest to enter the Most Holy Place and extract the sins of the nation. He then placed the sins of the saved on the head of the Scapegoat, which was then led into the wilderness by the hand of a fit man to perish with their sins.

Yes, correct. What happened to the one for the Lord? It was killed and the body burned 'outside the camp' on the Miphkad altar on the top of Mount Olives just above Gethsemane where Jesus sweat great drops of blood saying "If this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done", accepting His baptism of blood as Mrs White said. This is where He died for our sins and had "victory over Satan" says the Spirit of Prophecy.

In order for the Lord to have the right to transfer the sins to the head of the scapegoat first He must die the second death since everyone dies the first death and this is not the penalty for sins. Millions died on a cross but only one of them was 'cut off' [Dan 9:26] from the Father with the sins of the world upon His head.

The second resurrection is where we all deserve to be resurrected. Jesus had to die that death in order to pay for the sins of the world. in the name of Jesus I defend what God showed me through the Spirit of Prophecy. I don't want it to offend, but to stimulate a response, I hope you see.

I am always asked, why do you snap? I say "what did Jesus say to Peter when he contradicted the word of the Lord?" Always silence.

The Spirit of Elijah is here, we have full access to the heavenly storehouse of knowledge and how many swim in that pool? How many even know of it's existence? The church has neglected the truth. Soon the source of grace will be extinguished and the decree will go forth 'let him that be Holy be Holy still...' and the wicked?

Elijah and John the baptist called false doctrines to the mat and took them on to the point of offending men in high places. That's what our message will be to the leaders soon. How much more for those who claim to know and are wrong? They never go quietly. You wouldn't believe the hateful things I've seen in our church. But I praise God that we are His church.

By consuming and conquering the cup of trembling, Jesus accomplished more than merely dying. Anyone can die the second death. Only Jesus could consume and conquer it. Ellen wrote:


Not once does it say the annual accumulation of sins were placed upon the Lord's Goat on the Day of Atonement. It says the blood of the Lord's Goat is what gave the High Priest the right to remove and transfer the annual accumulation of sins upon the head of the Scapegoat. Throughout the year, it was the blood of sacrifices that made it possible to transfer sins to the Most Holy Place. At the end of the year, it is the Scapegoat that makes it possible to transfer their sins to the wilderness.

"The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." Jesus did not suffer the full and final penalty for sin. Satan is the one who will "suffer the full penalty of sin". He will "bear the final penalty". Dying the second death is how one suffers the full and final penalty. There is no resurrection from the second death. Jesus was raised on the third day.

What is your reference for this insight?

I believe Ellen White said Christ "tasted" the second death. How can one taste death without experiencing it? Jesus was not lost, so therefore did not experience it fully, but he did die for our sins. Could that be what "tasting" means?
He died the second death, but at the same time did not die as the lost will. Not sure if I said it completely.

Dying a first death means nothing.

Kland, you could be right. Jesus may have died the second death.

If dying the second death is paying the full and final penalty for sin, how can Jesus be my Redeemer if He did not pay the full penalty of my sin?

If Jesus died, not being able to see through the portals of the tomb, wasn't that experiencing the second death?

"The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God." {DA 753.2}

Isn't that the theme that drove the apostle Paul.
"He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil. 2:8.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed (by God, Deut. 21:23)is everyone that hangeth on a tree." Gal. 3:13.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." Gal. 6:14.

I believe the depth of this sacrifice will be our study for eternity.
No wonder it says in Luke, "He set His face steadfastly to go up to Jerusalem."

Geoff, what Jesus suffered from Gethsemane to Golgotha was the ultimate, the epitome of suffering. No doubt about it. Not being able to see through the portals of the tomb, although temporary, was nonetheless intense and beyond human comprehension. Just before He laid down His life the "loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn" and Jesus saw past the tomb standing victoriously on the Sea of Glass with the trophies of His triumph. Ellen wrote:


Jesus drained the last dregs of the cup before He died. He accomplished what He came here to do before He died. He won the battle before He died. He planted His banner as victor before He died. He satisfied the death demands of law and justice before He died. He laid down His life after He paid our sin debt of death. On the Day of Atonement, according to the testimony of Scripture and the SOP, the accumulation of sin was transferred to the Scapegoat - not the Lord's Goat. The Scapegoat suffers the "full" and "final" penalty, that is, the second death, from which there is no resurrection. Jesus suffered and died for our sins; Satan will die with them. Jesus did not lay down His life on the Day of Atonement. The second death happens after the Day of Atonement.

Hebrews 13:10

We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. (The Miphkad Altar outside the eastern gate on Mt Olives was the only altar used in any Temple service not inside the Holy Precinct)

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (written after Jesus had already ascended to heaven, we are to imagine going to Jesus while He drank the cup for us, like my vision seeing Jesus suffer the second death for me outside Jerusalem's Eastern Gate)

14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.



This is the Miphkad altar where the body of the atonement sacrifice was burned and where the Red Heifer sacrifice took place. Here is where Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey's colt and also where Jesus ascended to heaven. The gate to Gethsemane which was just down hill beneath the bridge was next to this altar. This is one of the most important places in redemption and very little is said about it in scripture because it is a message for us in the end.

The bridge was were the scapegoat was lead by the strong man to the wilderness of forgetfulness. Beneath the bridge is were the Brook Kidron was and this is the stream that Mrs White said the spring of life flows from. I could go on and on but you probably don't even care.

“Soon after they had commenced their earnest cry, the angels, in sympathy, desired to go to their deliverance. But a tall, commanding angel suffered them not. He said: “The will of God is not yet fulfilled. They must drink of the cup. They must be baptized with the baptism.”
{CET 178.2}

Jesus drank the cup in Gethsemane outside the Eastern Gate, the Spirit of Prophecy says this is also when He had His baptism of blood.

“Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}


The second death that Jesus suffered, doesn't mean Jesus died twice. It means He died the death that we will if resurrected outside of the Holy city after the thousand years of judgment. It would have been our second death if Jesus didn't do it for us. Just recently, I found the perfect sermon that illustrates this from Joe Crews, the founder of Amazing Facts. From his sermon and booklet;

"The High cost of the cross".

"The question is; how does Christ's death make it possible for Him to forgive sin? This brings us to the crux of all we have learned so far. It was necessary for Jesus to suffer the second death in order to acquire the power to forgive.

The germ of all forgiveness is rooted in an act of substitution. Whoever forgives another person must actually substitute himself for the one he forgives, and be willing to suffer the consequences of the wrong done...

This illustration brings us very close to the heart of the atonement.

The punishment for sin is not the first death, but the second death. That is why the protracted agony of Jesus on the cross was totally unlike any other death. Thousands of criminals were crucified in the same physical way that Christ was nailed to the cross, but they suffered only the bodily pain of the first death. He experienced the awful condemnation and separation from God that the vilest of sinners will feel in the lake of fire. His sensitive nature was traumatized by sharing vicariously the guilt of foul rapes, murders, and atrocities. He became sin in order to allow the full wrath of the law to fall upon Him in exactly the same way it would fall upon the lost.

In no other way can we explain the mysterious anguish of spirit which surrounded our Savior in His closing hours of life. From the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus bore the accumulated sins of mankind on His breaking heart. Not one ray of light was permitted to penetrate the blanket of total alienation from His Father in heaven. In order to take the place of guilty sinners and to provide forgiveness there could be no difference in their penalty and His penalty.

Let no one suggest that the Father did not suffer equally with His Son. The divine forbearance of God in allowing wicked men to torture His Son to death is the ultimate proof that He loves us with the same love that He loved Jesus."

Regarding this second death that Christ suffered for us, Acts 2: 29; 35 says… “Brethren, concerning the patriarch David… he spoke concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption." This sermon of Peters, was just seconds after the early rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost; which in itself is proof that it is a revelation in present truth. Peter was speaking with the same voice that the Holy Spirit originally prophesied through David and Joel, received by Peter here.

Notice that the soul of Jesus “was not left to Hades, NOR did His flesh see corruption”, two distinctly different phases of His death.

Taken directly from Strong’s concordance we find;

Hades; OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL USAGE; 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions 2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead. 3) Later use of this word: the grave, death, hell.

According here to Strong’s concordance, the word Hades was not used for the word grave until after the bible was written! So “left to Hades” here must represent Christ before he went to the grave, being tormented by the god of this world, Satan, in the realm of the dead.

He was suffering the Second death with the sins of the world upon His head, cut off from communion with His Father. Imagine the wrath of Satan after He's been imprisoned by darkness and cold for a thousand years, and see why Jesus fears for those who will be lost to Him in the second resurrection.This is the real fear OF the Lord because He proved that He didn't fear for Himself, but for us.

The Next words in Acts, “NOR did His flesh see corruption” is the next phase in the Death of Christ.

Corruption in the New Testament; that destruction which is effected by the decay of the body after death.

What Peter and David are prophesying here is; God the Father would not leave Jesus the Son, outside of the Heavenly City suffering our second death in the land of the dead, without communication with Him forever. Nor would He let His body see decay or corruption during His stay in the grave. His body did not begin to stink.

Jesus was ordained as High Priest by the hand of the Father in heaven at that exact moment on Pentecost. Why was Peter prompted by the Holy Spirit to quote this prophecy, the very instant the Holy Spirit was poured out in strength and the tongues of fire wrote the law upon their hearts? It is because this fulfillment is part of the sign of Jonah, which leads to a more perfect understanding of the love of Christ and His Father for us. It shows us the path to heaven where He is, even now.

Since this was one of the first prophetic texts quoted by the Holy Spirit in the early rain, why would it not be connected to the latter rain message?

Did Jesus sin? No He didn't so he did not even deserve the first death. Jesus died both the physical and spiritual death that those resurrected in the second resurrection will die. He spent three days dying this death. First He was cut off dying the spiritual death, then He died physically, then He spent a day in the grave.

This is the three days and three nights sign of Jonah. This is the message for the wicked and adulterous generation and God is paying close attention to your response.

James, Jesus didn't lay down His life on the Day of Atonement.

MM, you mentioned something about the Day of Atonement more than once. I didn't see the relevance?

That's the point, I suppose. It isn't relevant. That is, Jesus' death on the cross didn't occur on the Day of Atonement, the day associated with the scapegoat and the second death.

Jesus didn't die on Atonement but pleads the merits of the shedding of His blood on our behalf on Atonement.

He died as the sacrifice on Passover in the court which represents His earthly ministry, then ascended to heaven and entered the Holy Place and became high priest on Pentecost, then entered the Most Holy Place on atonement to begin pleading His blood on each of our cases in the judgment. You should know this Brother.

The blood that He shed by sweating was on Passover, as was His being scourged and hung on the cross, all of the fulfillment of the literal blood sacrifices were complete in those 3 days. That is why elements of the atonement are found in the Red Heifer sacrifice and why the bodies were burned on that altar outside the eastern gate. This is to show they are connected.

The Red Heifer was a peculiar sacrifice like Melchizedek was a peculiar priest.

It was a miracle birth. It was a sign that the temple could be rebuilt. The ashes of the Red Heifer were for a cleansing from sin just as atonement was. The Heifer was burned to ashes on the same altar outside Jerusalem as the Atonement goat for the Lord. Burning to ashes illustrates that this was His hell. He didn't just slightly taste death for us, He drank the cup to the dregs.

The blood for atonement was cast to the east towards the Miphkad altar on Mt Olives and the blood for the Red Heifer was cast to the west in the direction of the temple. In other words the blood of both sacrifices were cast towards each other, like a bridge of blood, and in between was the bridge of the Red Heifer. Both trails of the blood cast by the finger fell in the direction of Gethsemane where Jesus was cut off from the Father Where our sins were upon His head.

“…Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God's law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law”.
EGW (2nd death)

(In Gethsemane) The disciples were suddenly aroused from their slumber by a bright light shining upon and around the Son of God. They started up in amazement, and beheld a heavenly being, clothed in garments of light, bending over their prostrate Master. With his right hand he lifted the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and with his left hand he pointed toward Heaven. His voice was like the sweetest music, as he uttered soothing words presenting to the mind of Christ the grand results of the victory he had gained over the strong and wily foe. Christ was victor over Satan; and, as the result of his triumph, millions were to be victors with him in his glorified kingdom.{5Red 21.1}

He gained the victory over Satan in Gethsemane. He died the death we deserve by being cut off from the Father.

So many important pieces of the puzzle are sewn in Gethsemane.
Mrs. White had a dream about a secret spring of water that flowed from the bottom of a stream, that was crossed by a bridge. She doesn’t mention where this bridge is, or give it a name as if it is supposed to be discovered by inspired believers who, like her, would be led to it. This spring had “Living Water” that flowed from it, as she entitled the dream…

"Living Water"; “…as we walked on, we came to a bridge over a stream of water, when he abruptly left me and plunged out of sight into the water. I was frightened; but he soon arose, holding in his hand a glass of sparkling water. He drank it, saying, "This water cures all manner of diseases." He plunged in again out of sight, brought up another glass of clear water, and as he held it up repeated the same words. I felt sad that he did not offer me some of the water. He said: "There is a secret spring in the bottom of this river which cures all manner of diseases, all who obtain it must plunge at a venture, no one can obtain it for another, each must plunge for it himself." As he drank the glass of water, I looked at his countenance. His complexion was fair and natural. He seemed to possess health and vigor. When I awoke, all my fears were dispelled…” CET Pg. 125

Well friends, if this water is so important, why would she not tell us where it is, or even the name of the bridge or stream? It is obvious that a very important message is connected to this overlooked dream of hers, and I know without shadow of a doubt, I have been led to discover it “…for the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water…" Revelation 7:17.

The Prophets Jeremiah and Zechariah both prophesied about the ‘Living Water’ being the word of the LORD, but there are only TWO places in scripture that Jesus spoke directly about the living water. The first when He was talking to the Samarian woman at the well, and the last time was at the feast of tabernacles in His last year of earthly ministry. This quote from the Spirit of Prophecy mentions both of these incidents AND talks about the brook where the spring of healing water is. It’s in the chapter called…‘The Feast of Tabernacles’…

“The feast lasted one week, and during all that time the temple was a festal scene of great rejoicing. There was the pomp of the sacrificial ceremonies; and the sound of music, mingled with hosannas, made the place jubilant. At the first dawn of day, the priests sounded a long, shrill blast upon their silver trumpets; and the answering trumpets, and the glad shouts of the people from their booths, echoing over hill and valley, welcomed the festal day. Then the priest dipped from the flowing waters of the Kedron a flagon of water, and, lifting it on high, while the trumpets were sounding, he ascended the broad steps of the temple, keeping time with the music with slow and measured tread, chanting meanwhile: "Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem!" He bore the flagon to the altar which occupied a central position in the temple court. Here were two silver basins, with a priest standing at each one. The flagon of water was poured into one basin, and a flagon of wine into the other; and the contents of both flowed into a pipe which communicated with the Kedron, and was conducted to the Dead Sea. This display of the consecrated water represented the fountain that flowed from the rock to refresh the Hebrews in the wilderness. Then the jubilant strains rang forth: "The Lord Jehovah is my strength and song;" "therefore with joy shall we draw water out of the wells of salvation!"... The feast was drawing to a close. The morning of the last, crowning day found the people wearied from the long season of festivity. Suddenly Jesus lifted up his voice in tones that rang through the courts of the temple: "If any man thirst let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." The condition of the people made this appeal very forcible. They had been engaged in a continued scene of pomp and festivity, their eyes had been dazzled with light and color, and their ears regaled with the richest music; but there had been nothing to meet the wants of the spirit, nothing to satisfy the thirst of the soul for that which perishes not. Jesus invited them to come and drink of the fountain of life, of that which should be in them a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” The priest had that morning performed the imposing ceremony which represented the smiting of the rock in the wilderness and the issuing there from of the water. That rock was a figure of Christ. His words were the water of life. As Jesus spoke thus to the people, their hearts thrilled with a strange awe, and many were ready to exclaim, with the woman of Samaria, "Give me of this water, that I thirst not."
{Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 2 345-6}

The Brook Kedron is where the waters were taken from and re-deposited, mingled with the wine through the silver pipe. The priest had to exit the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem to get to the place where the water was taken from the Brook, the same rout Jesus took after His last supper. This place where the water was taken, is the exact same spot Jesus crossed the Brook Kedron to enter into the Garden of Gethsemane which was on a terrace immediately beneath ‘the Bridge of the Red Heifer’ on the east side of the Brook Kidron, in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, also known as the Valley of the shadow of death or Kedron, Kidron, or Cedron. This is where the ashes of all the sacrificial animals were thrown. On the Passover these waters were completely red from the blood of the sacrifices flowing into it.

The bridge Mrs. White had the dream about, where the spring of living water flowed, is the Bridge of the Red Heifer. We need to see the messages connected to Gethsemane and the Red Heifer, to discover the spring of "living water". Then we can sing "The Lord Jehovah is my strength and song;" "therefore with joy shall we draw water out of the wells of salvation!" as they did at the feast of Tabernacles.

Amen! Yes, I am aware of these wonderful facts. Thank you, Jesus. As you know, the sins removed from the MHP on the Day of Atonement were placed upon the head of the scapegoat, which was then led into the wilderness to die the second death. Jesus paid our sin debt of death in the Outer Court - not in the wilderness after the Day of Atonement. It is Satan who will suffer the "full" and "final" penalty, which is the second death. Jesus experienced the bitter anguish sinners will sense in the lake of fire, but unlike the unsaved Jesus triumphed over the second death. Like the saved, Jesus got the victory over sin and the second death. Jesus symbolizes the saved - not the unsaved. It is Satan who symbolizes the unsaved and who will share their fate bearing the sins of the saved.

Yes but in order for Jesus to secure the right to redeem anyone He had to pay the full price of their sins. He became sin for us. This gives Him the right to transfer the sins upon Satan and that is why Satan tried so hard to discourage Jesus in Gethsemane. You're getting very close to the truth here.

I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hated us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday. {SpM 1.5}
Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus’ work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}

MM, why make the distinction between Christ being destroyed in the lake of fire and the agonizing death He endured for us. Isn't the important point that His suffering was great beyond measure and his life blood was pour out for us - that it was a complete, perfect, infinite sacrifice for finite, polluted man?

The love that motivated the sacrifice was infinite so the sacrifice itself is on the same scale - infinite. And if it was infinite, why suggest that it lacked anything - like the lake of fire or any other kind of annihilation. The separation of Christ from the Father was complete and caused His death. His tender suffering on our behalf is a unique, one-off event - the water-shed divide of not only the history of this sinful world but the great divide of the history of the universe; In one sense it's like a black hole from which no light escapes - we can only partly fathom it. But in a greater sense it's like the creation of the universe when the Father and the Son commanded the light to shine out of darkness; that is from the greatest darkness - the separation of Christ from the Father for our sakes - comes the brightest light.

Mark, I thoroughly agree with you that what Jesus underwent for us is the epitome of love and sacrifice and redemption. It lacked nothing. Jesus "did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do". The separation Jesus and the Father suffered for our sacrifice and salvation ended before Jesus laid down His life. He did more than die the second death - He completely consumed it and triumphantly proclaimed - "It is finished." He conquered the cup; not the other way around. Saying so does not detract from what Jesus "accomplished" for us; on the contrary, it exalts and magnifies His accomplishment. He entered and existed the domain of death to demonstrate His ownership of the keys of hell and of death. Again, Jesus drank the cup as our Substitute. He endured everything law and justice demand of the damned. Jesus suffered for our sins. However, according to the inspired record, it is Satan, the scapegoat, who will suffer with the sins of the saved in the lake of fire at the end of time. The inspired record makes this distinction. I do not pretend to know all there is to know about it. Eternity will not be long enough to exhaust the truth. Thank you, Jesus.

Amen praise God, now tell me how does this fit with what you said before that Jesus "Didn't die the second death"?

I praise God that you are learning...... *****STAFF EDIT*****

*****STAFF EDIT RE THREAD CLEANUP***** You're right, I do not believe Jesus died the second death. What I posted above supports it. Jesus drained the dregs of the cup and lived to tell about it. He "won the battle." Satan and the unsaved will not fare as well, that is, they will perish. Satan will pay the "full" and "final" price in perdition.

1 Corinthians
15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

Revelation
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

All who were partakers with Christ in His humiliation and sufferings will be partakers with Him in His glory. By the resurrection of Christ from the dead every believing saint who falls asleep in Jesus will come forth from his prison house in triumph. The resurrected saint will proclaim, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:55). . . . {2SM 271.4}

Jesus Christ has triumphed over death and rent the fetters of the tomb, and all who sleep in the tomb will share the victory; they will come forth from their graves as did the Conqueror. . . . {2SM 272.1}

The inspired passages posted above make it clear Jesus and the saints that He will resurrect when He returns experienced same death, namely, the first death. It is Satan and the unsaved who will suffer the second death in the lake of fire at the end of time.

*****STAFF EDIT***** The second death is the punishment for sins.

Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God’s law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law. (In Gethsemane) The Majesty of heaven was as one bewildered with agony. No human being could endure such suffering; but Christ had contemplated the struggle. He had said to His disciples, “I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!” Now is the “hour, and the power of darkness.”Manuscript 42, 1897. {CTr 266.8}

SEPARATION FROM THE FATHER IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. Not the physical death. 'And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment.' Hebrews 9:27

The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that “the wages of sin is death,” that every violation of God’s law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father’s face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.... {DD 16.4}

*****STAFF EDIT*****

"Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their (Father/Son) separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

"Separation From God Brings Anguish of Soul—It was the anguish of separation from His Father’s favor that made Christ’s sufferings so acute. As the agony of soul came upon Him, “His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (Luke 22:44). His terrible anguish, caused by the thought that in this hour of need God had forsaken Him, portrays the anguish that the sinner will feel when, too late, he realizes that God’s Spirit is withdrawn from him.—MS 134, 1905. {2MCP 464.4}

"Satan had hoped that God’s abhorrence of evil would bring an eternal separation between heaven and earth. But now it was manifest that the connection between God and man had been restored.—The Desire of Ages, 116. {TA 170.2}

What happens to sinners when they are resurrected in the second resurrection, 'Cut off' from the Father? They sweat blood.

"The Lord has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Ezekiel 33:11. But if they will not come unto him that they may have life; if they choose to follow the multitude to do evil, rather than to walk in the way of God’s commandments, then they must bear their iniquity. Their blood will be upon their own heads. God gives them the power to choose, and warns them against the evil which lies before them. Against all his entreaties, they do despite to the spirit of grace, and trample on the precious blood of Christ which was shed for their redemption. {4SP 501.2}

"In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. His heart was rent with anguish and oppressed with gloom..." (What? He felt gloom after He yielded His life?)...But it was not the fear or the pain of death that caused His suffering. It was the crushing weight of the sin of the world, a sense of separation from His Father’s love. This was what broke the Saviour’s heart, and brought His death so soon. {SJ 145.1} Christ felt the woe that sinners will feel when they awake to realize the burden of their guilt, to know that they have forever separated themselves from the joy and peace of Heaven. {SJ 145.2}

"Without Christ there can be only condemnation and a fearful looking for a fiery indignation, and final separation from the presence of God." {1SM 371.2}

Here's a great one, but you will only harden your heart...

"In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”.... Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony.... Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law. {AG 168.2}

So it was in Gethsemane that Jesus died in our stead suffering the THE DEATH pronounced upon transgressors? I love that one, thank you Father for showing me, I'll have to put that one on the blog.

If by this quote alone you do not change your mind, I fear for you literally.

"In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”.... Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony.... Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law. {AG 168.2}

So it was in Gethsemane that Jesus died in our stead suffering the THE DEATH pronounced upon transgressors? Praise God, thank you for revealing this to such a man as me. I am not worthy but I praise you for your love amen.

If by this quote alone you do not change your mind, I fear for you literally.

The fires of hell are a blessing on the wicked separated from the Fathers love just as the physical death of Jesus on the cross was a blessing for His suffering to be finished.

This is what would happen to me if I didn't faithfully share these things. This is what God showed me is what the second death is like, that they will all sweat blood...

"Presently an angel bade me rise, and the sight that met my eyes can hardly be described. Before me was a company whose hair and garments were torn, and whose countenances were the very picture of despair and horror. They came close to me, and rubbed their garments upon mine. As I looked at my garments, I saw that they were stained with blood. Again I fell like one dead, at the feet of my accompanying angel. I could not plead one excuse, and longed to be away from that holy place. {CET 79.2}
The angel raised me to my feet, and said: “This is not your case now, but this scene has passed before you to let you know what your situation must be if you neglect to declare to others what the Lord has revealed to you. But if you are faithful to the end, you shall eat of the tree of life, and shall drink of the river of the water of life. You will have to suffer much, but the grace of God is sufficient.” {CET 79.3}

It may sound strange, but I agree with both of MM and James.

Christ SUFFERED the second death in all it's terrors. The weight of the worlds sins was so great it dragged Him to the depths of "hell" and subjected Him to the wrath of a righteous God against sin. He felt the agony sinners will feel when they stand outside the walls of Jerusalem knowing they lost it all. He felt it all.
All those quotes James presented -- yes, Jesus felt it all and He did it out of love for us.

But while He TASTED and experienced all the agonies and terrors of the second death for all of us, so we don't have to experience it, yet He didn't "die" the second death.

Why do we say that?
Because there is NO RETURN from the second death. It is everlasting, final, finished, the end.

Jesus experienced the terror and anguish of that death, but HE ROSE AGAIN!
Because that awful load of sin that drove Him down into the depths of utter lostness, could not hold Him, because He had never sinned.
HE ROSE AGAIN and liveth forever to intercede for us.

No one who dies the second death will rise again, they are finished, gone forever, never to be again. And in the end satan will get the whole heap of sins on him and he will die the second death never to bother anyone ever again.
I noticed several times that MM tried to explain the role of the scape goat in the day of atonement, but it was always brushed aside. That scape goat is satan.

But James is right in his concern that we understand that Christ experienced (fully felt) the agonies and terrors of the second death in our place.
Yet, He rose -- so it wasn't the second death.
He conquered DEATH!

How we should cling to Christ in thankful amazement that He would do that for us so we don't have to experience it
And yes, as MM explained if we experience the second death -- it will be final -- NO RETURN.

In Christ is life -- come to Him, for why would anyone turn their back on Christ Who did so much for us, and head into that black hole from which there is no return.

I agree. Jesus didn't literally die the second death. He "tasted" it, of all it, but in the end He conquered it. Thank you, Jesus.

Dedication, thank you for emphasizing this vital truth. From the beginning of this thread I have attempted to do so. Here is a sampling of what I've posted thus far:


However, I really appreciate the way you stated it above. We cannot overstate what Jesus suffered as our Substitute. So again, thank you, Dedication, for expressing it so eloquently. God is good.

To be absolutely clear,

1: Jesus was sitting outside the gates of Jerusalem...Just as the wicked will be at the second resurrection.

2: Jesus was 'Cut off' as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be 'cut off', but not for himself...

3: Jesus sweat blood just as everyone in the second resurrection will sweat.

4: Jesus pleaded with the Father to let "the cup" that He offered in the upper room, the cup of the new and everlasting covenant, to pass from Him that He might not drink it.

5: Jesus had His 'Baptism of blood' in Gethsemane and the Holy Spirit 'like a dove' overshadowed Him.

6: The wrath of the Father was upon Him.

7: The Red Heifer which was burned to ashes was fulfilled at that moment in Gethsemane.

8: Hebrews 13: 10-13 says "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

and we are commanded, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach."

And so many more proofs, and after all of these you still say Jesus didn't die the second death? Completely contrary to many pastors of our faith that I discovered after having a vision from God..... *****STAFF EDIT*****

You have no idea what you are doing.

I will reiterate. If you speak words claiming to be enlightened by God, but are speaking CONTRARY to the Holy Spirit, THIS IS WHAT A FALSE PROPHET IS! By definition.

*****STAFF EDIT*****

I am confident the Lord has spoken through me on this issue... *****STAFF EDIT*****

James, you do not have Ellen White's support. She never says Jesus died the second death. She makes it abundantly clear Satan will pay the "full" and "final" penalty for the sins of the saved. The sins of the saved were transferred to the head of the Scapegoat on the Day of Atonement. They were not placed upon the Lord's Goat.

*****THREAD CLEANUP STAFF EDIT*****

I don't think James understands what we have said. He isn't addressing what was said.
Sadly he seems to see it only as a "challenge" against himself.
No it's not a challenge against him, it's expressing what I believe!


Here is his rebuttal with my observations added.

James: 1: Jesus was sitting outside the gates of Jerusalem...Just as the wicked will be at the second resurrection.

Dedication: Yes, -- but not "sitting" He was crucified outside the walls on Mt. Calvary.



James:2: Jesus was 'Cut off' as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be 'cut off', but not for himself...

Dedication: Yes, He was crucified as prophesied in Daniel 9:26 and it wasn't for Himself it was for us that we might have redemption.


James:3: Jesus sweat blood just as everyone in the second resurrection will sweat.

Dedication: Yes, He experienced all the agonies and terrors of the second death for all of us, so we don't have to experience it, yet He didn't "die" the second death, though in all its darkness it felt like it would be eternal death, He died the first death.


James:4: Jesus pleaded with the Father to let "the cup" that He offered in the upper room, the cup of the new and everlasting covenant, to pass from Him that He might not drink it.

Dedication: Yes, taking the full load of the world's sin and going through with the sacrifice was difficult for His human nature. But the "cup" was not the covenant, the cup was the "cup of iniquity" of the world. It was taking the sins of the world that would separate Him from His Father and incur the wrath of justice.

James:5: Jesus had His 'Baptism of blood' in Gethsemane and the Holy Spirit 'like a dove' overshadowed Him.

Dedication: Yes, Jesus sweat blood in Gethsemane and had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him He would have died there.
DA page 695 does say the Holy Spirit like a dove overshadowed Him.

James:6: The wrath of the Father was upon Him.

Dedication: Yes, because of the load of the worlds sin, He experienced the wrath of God which the sinners facing the second death will experience.

James: And so many more proofs, and after all of these you still say Jesus didn't die the second death?

Dedication: He experienced all the terrors and agonies of the second death, but though He died, he didn't actually die the second death. Even though every indication was that He must die the second death due to the terrible load of sin He bore, but because of His innocence, death could not hold Him, thus He gained the victory over the second death, He defeated it, it had no power over Him!

And MY PROOF FOR THAT IS BECAUSE HE ROSE AGAIN! HALLELULLA !!! AMEN!

Don't you believe Christ rose and lives forever more???

All who die the second death are dead forever more. There is no resurrection for those who die the second death.

Christ took the sins of the world upon Himself.


Christ created the human race and they "went bad", they deserve death. But as our heavenly parent, Christ takes the blame and suffers the penalty. Now the penalty is everlasting last. Jesus experiences the full agony of the eternal death, but because of His absolute sinlessness He gains victory over it, breaking its grasp and rises again! Death has no power to hold Him.

His death is depicted by the Passover Lamb.
The confessed sins of the saints are recorded in the heavenly sanctuary with the blood of Christ covering them.
But they won't stay there forever.
The confessed sins of the saved will be carried into the everlasting destruction on the head of the instigator of sin -- the devil.


"[On the day of atonement] As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited;" so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. {FLB 213.4} (GC 486)

I didn't use the word 'sitting' for his body position, but for His co-ordinance.

It was the custom of Jesus to go to Gethsemane to pray because it was the same proximity of the altar Adam erected outside the eastern gate of the Garden of Eden. Nostalgically He longed to go to His friend there, to be with him once again. It is a symbol of His care that He truly has for our lives.

In my vision of Jesus in Gethsemane He was on His hands and knees sweating blood over every inch of his body like he was being squeezed with immense pressure, like Jonah at the bottom of the ocean in the giant fish.

He was looking up to Jerusalem's eastern gate from the bottom of the abyss on the east of Jerusalem. The gates of Jerusalem were closed to Him, and His prayers were not evident of being accepted. His connection with the Father was 'Cut Off'. Silence from heaven, just like the 144,000 after probation ends. Jesus finally had an angel by His side just like the 144,000 also in the very last days.

In the vision Jesus longed for sympathy from me like a brother in need. I felt ashamed, because of how I saw myself in His light. His need superseded my longing to hide, so I got to minister to Him while he was suffering for me. He held on to me in support of my realization of shame, while He was incurring the wrath of God for me. He was loving the fact that I cared about His pain. It drew us together in love because of the faith involved, like waves of truth.

I saw my sins transferred to the head of Christ there in the garden in my vision. He showed me, this is where the propitiation takes place, like the spark plug of Christianity. It is where we confess our sins upon His head and He takes them through the shame in our place and dies with them on the cross fulfilling the ultimate sacrifice. He died the death we all deserve in the Garden, and this begins the three day and three night "Sign of Jonah". This is the sign to the wicked and adulterous generation.

In The vision, while Jesus was on His hands and knees I saw an all red Heifer superimposed over His bloody visage. They inhabited the same place showing Jesus was this mysterious sacrifice in Gethsemane dying the second death.

It was so clear; like I was there, and then He came to me and when He held on I saw it through His eyes like His mind became my mind to suffer the shame of my past. This experience REVEALS EVERYTHING!!! It avails us to God's perspective on our lives, the mirror of liberty, in the light of the Ten Commandments.

This experience is what was supposed to happen in the heart of every man offering sacrifice at the Eastern Gate of the temple, and an invaluable tool in the Christian faith to empathize with Christ for our sin. This empathy is the greatest weapon against sin because of the reality of the shame. The perfect incentive to not continue to go through it and put Christ through it while He pleads on our behalf in heaven.

"The human heart longs for sympathy in suffering. This longing Christ felt to the very depths of His being. In the supreme agony of His soul He came to His disciples with a yearning desire to hear some words of comfort from those whom He had so often blessed and comforted, and shielded in sorrow and distress. The One who had always had words of sympathy for them was now suffering superhuman agony, and He longed to know that they were praying for Him and for themselves.... {CSA 32.8} Rising with painful effort, He staggered to the place where He had left His companions. But He “findeth them asleep (foolish virgins).” ... {CSA 32.9}


In the vision I was permitted to witnessed what the disciples would have if they did not sleep through it. Peter would go back to Gethsemane after the death of Jesus and this is where He continued to commune with Christ after His ascension, in prayer. It is a symbol of the gate to heaven facing the west, towards the eastern gate of the heavenly city, of which earthly Jerusalem is but a model. The model gives us a visual aid to imagine the heavenly eastern gate where the true triumphal entry will take place at the second resurrection. The wicked, Gog and Magog will watch Jesus and His saints enter the new Jerusalem's eastern gate when they come to do battle against God, to their death.

But to avoid going to the second death we accept Jesus suffering it for us, you see how that works?

"Again the Son of God was seized with superhuman agony, and fainting and exhausted, He staggered back to the place of His former struggle. His suffering was even greater than before. As the agony of soul came upon Him, “His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” The cypress and palm trees were the silent witnesses of His anguish. From their leafy branches dropped heavy dew upon His stricken form, as if nature wept over its Author wrestling alone with the powers of darkness." {DA 689.3}

I have never heard it preached HOW the writer of this biblical message could know these things to write them if everyone was asleep or had a limited knowledge of the suffering of Jesus in the Garden. There were no alert witnesses... Now I know how. It is the sprinkling of the ashes of the Red Heifer. They witnessed it after the fact in the Spirit like I did.

This message leads to the sanctification for the reception of the later rain. The ashed of the Red Heifer were quintessential to build or rebuild the temple, and God is trying to bring us together in truth to build the true temple, the Body of Christ.

In Gethsemane, to the east of Jerusalem, Jesus became the brazen serpent, sin for us.

Then He was brought in the city at the hand of wicked men.

Then led out of the sheep gate to the North where Golgotha is.

This is where the Brazen Serpent was hung on the pole.

We need to look and live.

I haven't read through this thread yet, however, I thought I would post the following link by the BRI:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/secondeath.htm

How does the content of the above link relate to what has been posted and is being posted here?

Than you, thank you, thank you Daryl, this was an excellent article!

Amen! Good point. It was the blood of the sacrificial animals slain in the outer court that made it possible for the sins of the penitent to be transferred to the MHP. This symbolizes what Jesus accomplished for us before He died on the cross. What happened on the Day of Atonement symbolizes what Jesus will do when He transfers the sins of the saved to Satan at the end of time. Saved sinners do not die the second death. Neither did Jesus. He voluntarily laid down His life on the cross after He tasted and defeated the second death. He did not die in a lake of fire. It is Satan and the unsaved sinners who will die the second death in the lake of fire. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Pastor Rodriquez wrote: "The second death is the final penalty for sin, the total and eternal elimination of evil powers and sin in God's creation." And Ellen White wrote: Satan "must bear the final penalty" (GC 422). He "will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked" (GC 486).

*****STAFF EDIT*****

This is what Pastor Rodriguez said in that article for the Biblical Research Institute.

"It's impossible for us to understand fully what the second death entails, because the only one who went through it and came back was Jesus. Therefore, we must carefully approach this subject, beginning by examining the passages in which the phrase "second death" is used and then exploring Jesus' experience."

Then later he said...

"Third, Jesus experienced the anguish of His separation from the Father in the most real form (Matt. 27:46). He confronted the pain of God's abandonment. The anguish of His soul had a spiritual component in that He was the rejected one. This is unquestionably the second death. Of course, Christ came back to life. He was resurrected because there was no sin in Him and the tomb could not retain Him. For believers, Jesus' resurrection is an expression of God's love. For the wicked, going into eternal oblivion may well be an expression of that same love. The second death marks the extermination of sin and death from the universe. Because Jesus paid the penalty for our sin, our destiny is communion with God and the Lamb throughout eternity, achieved for all who believe in Him through His death and resurrection."

The WHOLE article supports the fact that Jesus DID die the Second Death. So how can you have the nerve to say otherwise? Do you just assume no one else is reading the link and you want to subvert the the minds of those who are just reading this argument?

*****STAFF EDIT*****

"In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”.... Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony.... Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law. {AG 168.2}

In the Garden Christ was suffering the death that us sinners deserve. He was still suffering this death when He died physically on the cross.

Here's that whole quote...

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. Matthew 26:39. {AG 168.1}
In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”.... Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony.... Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law. {AG 168.2}
It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when he bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God’s law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {AG 168.3}
Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering.... The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {AG 168.4}
The sword of justice was unsheathed, and the wrath of God against iniquity rested upon man’s substitute, Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. {AG 168.5}

This was in Gethsemane, before Jesus died on the cross.

*****POST REMOVED*****

James, I'm having difficulty in understanding what you see MM as rejecting. MM said:

And before he had said:

Yes your right kland, it seemed he started to support this biblical doctrine but then, starting in that first quoted response he denies the full penalty that Jesus felt by saying "Jesus didn't literally die the second death."

Then he went back to supporting his previous statements saying;



I have been shown and know I have been given perfect SOP evidence that Jesus did die the second death, the death that we all deserve, separation from the Father is the second death.

Then when brother Daryl sent the link from Pastor Rodriquez about his article in the Bible research institute which completely supports what God showed me in vision that Jesus DID die the second death, he totally denied that the subject of the article was about Jesus dying the second death when THE WHOLE ARTICLE was exactly that.

Either he didn't even bother to read the article or what would be worse is; he read the article and tried to dissuade others from seeing the proof and made a completely false statement as if others would listen to his statement and not bother following the link to read it for themselves, which would be evil.

In either case a Holy Spirit filled man of God would have corrected his statements, but he has not. This is a major indicator of whether he is loyal to God and follows the promptings of His Spirit or not. If we have offended by false statements, especially when we act as if sent by God to make such statements as he seemed to imply, then in particular the Holy Spirit would prompt a true man of God to repent. He has not.

Read that article from Pastor Rodriquez that elder Daryl sent and see for yourself. Why would he try to say Pastor Rodriquez did not say Jesus died the second death when the whole article is saying He did?

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/secondeath.htm

The reason I am defending this position so vehemently is for this one purpose. I have been sent with this message to show how to be prepared for the outpouring of the later rain.

This is what our Father has sent me to do. This claim is what I am being persecuted for on so many levels from so many people within God's church, which is a test for them.

Men have taken me on as if sent by God to do so, when they discover through revelation of truth that they are wrong, this is their valley of decision. If anyone claims I am not sent by the Lord on this subject they are proving what side they are really on by denying the Spirit of Prophecy.

Men who deny the Spirit while claiming to be led by God are the ones who try to take me on. You should see what I've seen from these men in God's church. This is why I am not afraid to confront them. I have seen this pattern develop over and over.

I have seen a great light, and I am being prepared for the later rain through these messages. Everything fits so perfectly in the Spirit of Prophecy and I will never deny this message, and feel an obligation to prayerfully defend the message that God has given.

When Paul was shown that the Gentiles were to be fully accepted into the Christian church and he had to confront the men of Hebrew origin, including Peter, over this subject, did he allow compromise in the debate? No, he would prayerfully contend with Peter until he saw his error so he could repent. This is my heavenly inspired mission. The men and women I know who have accepted this message of meeting with Jesus in their hearts at Gethsemane to place their sins upon His head and bear His reproach are the people God has blessed to be prepared for the end. This is my greatest blessing in my life. God showed me this and then I was led to proof and no one filled with the Spirit can deny it.

“Have you followed him in the garden of Gethsemane? Have you seen the bloody sweat bedew the ground?” {RH July 12, 1892, par. 6}

“The garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience is to be carefully studied and compared with the garden of Gethsemane where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him.” {Ms 1, 1892}

I had never read that quote before, but felt drawn to these two subjects that night in 2009, as if lured in righteousness to find a deeper comprehension. A year later I found that perfect command by our prophet to prove that it is Gods will that we compare these two events. I can tell you, finding this quote made me so excited.

While envisioning these two premises; Adam outside of Eden’s Eastern Gate and Jesus outside Jerusalem’s Eastern Gate, I was impressed that God wanted me to go further in this image. So I responded by praying, “Please Father, show me more”. Then immediately I had a vision…

I was shown Jesus on His hands and knees in the Garden of Gethsemane, covered in bloody sweat, and simultaneously saw an all Red Heifer super imposed over Him. I was privileged to be shown by our Father that Jesus fulfilled the mysterious Red Heifer sacrifice in the Garden of Gethsemane.

The three years since have been an experiment in faith and I have not been discouraged in it.

If you are interested in the vision and the biblical and Spirit of Prophecy support on this subject please visit my blog and prayerfully see for yourselves.

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

Peace in the name of Jesus amen.

10 snoring virgins?

(From my blog)



Another mystery explained; the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:5 has been translated this way… “While the Bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept”, and I have often wondered "why they are all depicted as sleeping, but 5 of them awake with enough oil?" So I did a word study.

The word used for ‘slumbered’ is nustazó. This word can also be translated “got drowsy”.

The word that is here translated ‘and’ is the Greek word ‘kai’, which can also be translated ‘also, both, but, even, for, if,' and 'so’. But, it is also translated ‘or’ 11 times in scripture.

The true translation of Matthew 25:5 should read “While the bridegroom tarried they all got drowsy or slept.”

Now look at this quote from Signs of the Times about the Garden of Gethsemane.

“In this fearful hour of trial Christ's human nature longed even for the sympathy of his disciples. A second time he rose from the earth and went to them and found them sleeping. This was not a deep sleep. They were in a drowse. They had a limited sense of their Lord's suffering and anguish. . In these sleeping disciples he sees a representation of a sleeping church.”
{ST, August 14, 1879 par. 10}

In this parable of the 10 virgins; the wise ones have an extra measure of oil when they come out of their slumber telling the foolish who slept to go buy for themselves. Where did they get the extra measure of oil, or Holy Spirit? In Gethsemane (the olive press)! They tell the foolish ones to go ‘buy for themselves’, which means it’s too late for them to prepare because the gate is shut and they have to pay for their own sins by their own blood at the second resurrection. The wise virgins have a limited sense of Jesus’ suffering and anguish, while the foolish ones are depicted here.

“They forget the Man of Sorrows, who was acquainted with grief. The sufferings of Jesus in Gethsemane, His sweating as it were great drops of blood in the garden, the platted crown of thorns that pierced His holy brow, do not move them. They have become benumbed. Their sensibilities are blunted, and they have lost all sense of the great sacrifice made for them. They can sit and listen to the story of the cross, hear how the cruel nails were driven through the hands and feet of the Son of God, and it does not stir the depths of the soul. Said the angel: "If such should be ushered into the city of God, and told that all its rich beauty and glory was theirs to enjoy eternally, they would have no sense of how dearly that inheritance was purchased for them. They would never realize the matchless depths of a Savior’s love. They have not drunk of the cup, nor been baptized with the baptism. Heaven would be marred if such should dwell there. Those only who have partaken of the sufferings of the Son of God, and have come up through great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, can enjoy the indescribable glory and unsurpassed beauty of heaven."
{1T 155.2}

James, these comments are inflammatory, unacceptable, and unChristlike. They also violate forum rules. Please refrain from using such abusive language. Thank you.


You quoted Ellen: "Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law." I agree with this insight. I also believe this is what Pastor Rodriquez is saying in his article. Jesus finished what He came here to accomplish before He died. "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, 'It is finished.'"

Really? I haven't heard you yet correct this statement...

"Pastor Rodriquez did not say Jesus died the second death."

Are you above having to correct your statements?

Mountain Man, these comments are inflammatory, unacceptable, and unChristlike. They also violate forum rules. Please refrain from using such abusive language. Thank you.

And by the way her name was 'Mrs. Ellen White' or 'sister White' if you have any civil decency (manners). I think even by today's standards calling her by her first name would be a little froward don't you? This is connected to respect of an elder, but you might not have been taught this decorum yet.

We refer to Bible personalities by their first names - Moses, Elijah, Peter, Paul, etc.

I believe Jesus "suffered" the ravages of the second death. This is not the same thing as death. It is more than death.

Your pride is in the way brother. You have not apologized or corrected for making the false statement...

"Pastor Rodriquez did not say Jesus died the second death."

Why is this so hard for you to do? You do know humility is a sign of the Spirit don't you? If I find I make a mistake, I am motivated by God to apologize and correct it as proven on this website. It is a hard pill to swallow but if you do not then you have no part in Christ.

So if a man who never met your mama started calling her by her first name this would not offend you? Did anyone in the history of our church have the audacity to do as you do? "Hey Ellen!"

Moses didn't have a last name like we do. Peter was the 'Son of Zebedee', or they associated them by their place of origin. They called themselves in their written works by their first names after their full titles were established.

But they never did anything contrary to civility. Why do you think we, after the pioneers, established the protocol of calling people by 'Brother' or 'sister'?

Pride has nothing to do with it. Pastor Rodriquez did not say Jesus died the second death. He inferred Jesus suffered the mental and emotional aspects associated with it. You pointed this out earlier on this thread. You wrote - "SEPARATION FROM THE FATHER IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. Not the physical death." "So it was in Gethsemane that Jesus died in our stead suffering the THE DEATH pronounced upon transgressors?" Jesus did not die in Gethsemane. And the "separation" you speak of ended on the cross before Jesus laid down His life.

If using her first name by itself is offensive to you, I will, out of respect for you, use her full name when responding to your posts.

Are you reading the same article or Are you trying to get a rise out of me? *****STAFF EDIT*****

In the same article he said "It's impossible for us to understand fully what the second death entails, because the only one who went through it and came back was Jesus.

And he also said, "This is unquestionably the second death."

*****STAFF EDIT*****

Just to clarify that you are reading the same article;

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/secondeath.htm

"Surviving the Second Death"
By Ángel Manuel Rodríguez

"As a church we hold that sinners who die "the second death" will stay dead forever. Should not Christ, who experienced this death as our substitute, also stay dead forever?"

I'm telling you, if you do not soften your heart and repent for this wicked behavior it doesn't matter how many people here like you, God will not hold you unaccountable in the end because you will be seen as a liar in the Spirit Just as Ananias was.

It is my understanding from reading that article from the BRI is that Christ died the Second Death as the Substitute for all those who have accepted Him, are accepting Him, and will accept Him, as the Lamb of God.

It is also my understanding that there normally isn't any resurrection from the Second Death, except for the fact that in Christ's case, there was no sin of His own found in Him, but only the sins of others that He took upon Himself as the Substitute for all those who have accepted Him, are accepting Him, and will accept Him, as the Lamb of God. This is the only reason why Christ was able to come from the Second Death that He experienced, tasted, suffered, etc. It is my understanding that to experience, taste, suffer, etc. is to actually die as a result.

All the details surrounding this is too hard for us to understand, therefore, we must accept it by faith until we see our Substitute face to face.

Thank you Father for Brothers like Daryl F. Please bless him. In Jesus' name amen.

You are correct that the 2nd death Jesus died will only benefit those who accept what He did for us, and this does not do away with the second death those who did not accept His sacrifice will suffer.

He showed me you are a true brother in the church Daryl. You will be blessed for this. I do not mean to say God showed me you agree with everything He showed me yet, but that you have the correct response when it comes to discernment and testing the Spirit.

I am sorry for the confrontation here, it was necessary to strengthen the issue in the minds of those riding the fence on the subject and put it into long term memory for most.

I truly fear for those who with so much evidence still found it their duty to try to discredit the vision by challenging and contradicting the evidence already given by the Holy Spirit. This is the wrong response, but by the conflict it will make a more lasting response on the minds of the bystanders.

Nothing happens against righteousness except for righteousness.

Pastor Rodriguez has received the same Holy Spirit message that I received, I would very much like to meet with and talk with him. Peace in Jesus' name amen.

I can share this now.

Those who in these last days find the truth in this matter are those who will receive the extra measure of oil to make it to the wedding feast. If there are any here that want this blessing please test this vision in prayerful contemplation, and if in your heart you are right with God you will be so blessed. I know our God has shown this for everyone to be blessed but only a remnant will accept and embrace this place of meeting with Christ.

Here again is the full vision.

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

I agree. Furthermore, Jesus continued "suffering" the ravages of the second death on the cross. However, we must reconcile this insight with the following insights:


Sister White makes it clear Jesus finished what He came to do BEFORE He voluntarily laid down His life, BEFORE He died. The sense of the Father's favor was restored BEFORE He died. Neither of these things are part of the second death.

*****POST REMOVED IN THREAD CLEANUP*****

*** MOD HAT ON ***
jamesonofthunder,

Your post here questioning Mountain Man's mental state violates the General Forum Rule #8, and the Forum Rules of Conduct #2, #4, #5, and #6. This kind of inflammatory language is not Christ-like and will not be permitted. An apology to Mountain Man would be appropriate. Please reign in your impassioned speech and remember to keep your posts civil and on topic.

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

*****STAFF EDIT*****

Just so the facts are laid out, this was mt Man's first posting on this thread in direct contradiction to what he has been saying at the end of this thread.

Mt Boy's first negative response: "Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus died the second death!"

Mt Boy's middle response; "Pastor Rodriguez never said Jesus died the second death".

Then after proof after proof was laid out towards the end of this fiasco he finally said "of course Jesus died the second death"...

But in between there was no acknowledging his error or any apology to me, but you want an apology from me for sincerely asking if he might have a mental disability? Especially after crying to the moderators to fight his battles?

I know you are here to distract even if you don't.

I have openly and publicly asked him to leave me alone on the threads I start several times and he has time and again denied this right of mine, since there are cyber bullying laws you should consider that over your moderator suggestions.

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Again, as a moderator in this thread, I ask that you be more respectful in your tone as becomes a Christian and a gentleman. If you are unable to do so, I may give this topic a break for your sake. Be aware that this is a public forum, open to the view of anyone, and that any member of this forum is welcome to participate in the discussion.

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, isn't there a way for James to hide my posts?

As a moderator, I may be unable to ignore users. You might try looking at a user's profile page and seeing if you have the option to ignore that user. I don't. It might also be that the feature is not enabled in the current implementation. You could ask Daryl about it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

*****POST REMOVED*****

Isn't there a way to hide James' posts from the rest of the forum?

Daryl, moderators, please.

__________________

*** MOD HAT ON ***

jamesonofthunder,

As you have persisted in the off-topic disregard for the rules and for other members of the forum, this topic is temporarily closed for further review by the moderation team.

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Forum members,

I am reopening this topic following staff evaluation and editing. I trust that everyone participating here will move forward positively, and not revisit the wrongs of the past. Please do your best to always address the topic, and not the person.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

I agree. Furthermore, Jesus continued "suffering" the ravages of the second death on the cross. However, we must reconcile this insight with the following insights:


(1) Sister White makes it clear Jesus finished what He came to do BEFORE He voluntarily laid down His life, BEFORE He died. (2) The sense of the Father's favor was restored BEFORE He died. Neither of these things are part of the second death.

What was Jesus' mission?
1) 1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2)John 17:6 I have manifested your name to the men which you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word.

3) Hebrews 2:14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Summary - 1) Jesus can to destroy the works of the devil. This he did, and he declared it here: John 14:30, before death on the cross. 2) He represented the true character of God = manifest His Name, John 14:9. 3) Demonstrated that the wages of sin is death, and died the second death, Romans 6:23.

Brother M&M,

at least this time you agree that Jesus did die the second death.

The intention of the inspiration God has led me to about Jesus dying the second death in Gethsemane was never to do away with the cross but to amplify the mission of Christ. That He did not just die the physical death but the death we all deserve, being 'cut off' from the Father. Can you imagine?

Always remember, that evening, before Gethsemane BEGINS the three days and three nights 'sign of Jonah'. Every one of those three days are very important to our faith. But this aspect of the sign, beginning in the Upper Room, has not been fully embraced in our church. This message has been hidden to those who have not been led to it.

Mrs White and her husband saw it as Mr White posted in his first writing...

“The ‘earth’ in this case must mean the powers of earth, or the power and control of wicked men, and the Devil… Thus, Jesus was in the heart of the earth, or controlled and held by the powers of earth and hell, from the time that he was betrayed into the hands of sinners, until he arose from the dead, in triumph and victory. Jesus was as much in the heart of the earth when before Pilate, and on the cross, as he was while in Joseph’s tomb. With this view, all the Scripture testimony will harmonize.” {PTJW December, 1849, Art. 5, p. 39.5}

This sign is connected to present truth and it is validation that our message is from God. It is the only sign that will be given to the wicked and adulterous generation of our day that God has led us here.

Since I was led to the church no one could ever justify the three days and nights, then God gave me the vision and then I started finding all sorts of supporting evidence. It IS a sign.

jsot - Christ' betrayal into sinners hands was after the Gethsemane experience. You are moving the timeline up from James White's statement.

No sir Brother,

if you think about it, Jesus was betrayed into the hands of sinners when He looked at Judas and said "what you must do, do quickly". I believe that began the three days and three nights, just before sunset on Thursday in the upper room.

“The Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me. After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord’s death till He come.” 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. {DA 652.1}
Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. {DA 652.2}

"In surprise and confusion at the exposure of his purpose, Judas rose hastily to leave the room. “Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.... He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.” Night it was to the traitor as he turned away from Christ into the outer darkness. {DA 654.3}

"As we receive the bread and wine symbolizing Christ’s broken body and spilled blood, we in imagination join in the scene of Communion in the upper chamber. We seem to be passing through the garden consecrated by the agony of Him who bore the sins of the world. We witness the struggle by which our reconciliation with God was obtained. Christ is set forth crucified among us. {DA 661.1}

Before leaving the upper chamber, the Saviour led His disciples in a song of praise. His voice was heard, not in the strains of some mournful lament, but in the joyful notes of the Passover hallel: {DA 672.3}
“O praise the Lord, all ye nations:
Praise Him, all ye people.
For His merciful kindness is great toward us:
And the truth of the Lord endureth forever.
Praise ye the Lord.” Psalm 117. {DA 672.4}
After the hymn, they went out. Through the crowded streets they made their way, passing out of the city gate toward the Mount of Olives. Slowly they proceeded, each busy with his own thoughts. As they began to descend toward the mount, Jesus said, in a tone of deepest sadness, “All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.” Matthew 26:31.

“Jesus with his disciples now left the upper chamber, and crossed the brook Kedron. Sorrow and anguish again pressed heavily upon his heart…It was not a dread of the physical suffering he was soon to endure that brought this agony upon the Son of God. He was enduring the penalty of man's transgression and shuddering beneath the Father's frown.{5Red 21.1}

They had that night celebrated the Passover correct? What was the first thing done for the Passover celebration? Dressed and ready to go, the Father of each family cut the throat of the Pascal Lamb between the door posts. As Jesus left the celebration of the Passover and exited Jerusalem out the Eastern Gate to descend to Gethsemane He was already shuddering beneath the Fathers frown.

Please Brother, take me seriously and test the Spirit truly, in faith that God will show you this amazing truth. The sign of Jonah Begins in the Upper room on Thursday evening just before Sunset.

Thursday evening to Sunday morning makes three days and three nights.

As a devoted follower of Jesus you owe this to Him. Peace.

The purpose of the Saviour in pronouncing the woe upon Judas was twofold: First, to give the false disciple a last opportunity to save himself from the betrayer’s doom; and, secondly, to give the disciples a crowning evidence of his Messiahship, in revealing the hidden purpose of Judas. Said Jesus: “I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen; but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.” {5Red 7.2}
The withdrawal of Judas was a relief to all present. The Saviour’s face immediately lighted, and the oppressive shadow was lifted from the disciples, as they saw the peace of Heaven return to the pale, worn countenance of their Lord. Jesus had much to say to his beloved disciples that he did not wish to say in the presence of the multitude, who could not understand the sacred truths he was about to unfold. Even the disciples could not fully understand them till after the resurrection should have taken place. {5Red 8.1}
Looking upon his faithful followers, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.” He then informed them of his approaching separation from them. The ardent Peter could not rest while the matter remained in uncertainty. He inquired, “Lord, whither goest thou?” Jesus answered, “Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterward.” But Peter’s interest was intensely roused, and he urged Jesus to explain his full meaning, saying, “Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.” Jesus answered sorrowfully, “Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow till thou hast denied me thrice.” Then, looking with pitying love upon his little flock, so soon to be left without a shepherd, he sought to draw their minds from the perplexity into which his statements had thrown them, and said tenderly, “Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.” {5Red 8.2}
Jesus with his disciples now left the upper chamber, and crossed the brook Kedron. Sorrow and anguish again pressed heavily upon his heart. With touching sadness he addressed his companions: “All ye shall be offended because of me this night; for it is written, I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. But after that I am risen I will go before you into Galilee.” Peter, again anxious to assure his Master of his fidelity, said, “Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.” Jesus, reproving his confidence as before, said, “Verily I say unto thee, that this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.” But Peter only “spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.” {5Red 9.2}
Jesus now repaired with his disciples to the garden of Gethsemane, at the foot of Mount Olivet, a retired place which he had often visited for seasons of communion with his Father. It was night; but the moon was shining bright, and revealed to him a flourishing grape-vine. Drawing the attention of the disciples to it, he said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” {5Red 10.1}

James, I didn't mean to say Jesus "died the second death". I believe He "suffered the second death". Satan, the scapegoat, will suffer with the sins of the saved and then die with their second death. I also believe Jesus began suffering the second death in Gethsemane.

So Brother Mountain Man,

you say that Jesus "suffered the second death" but did not die the second death?

I'm sure in your mind you are taking the words that He "tasted death" seriously eh? He didn't truly "drink the cup of the wrath of God" did He? He just tasted a little bit but didn't drink it to the dregs?

You do not comprehend what He went through. He tasted everyone's second death all at the same time.

"The High cost of the cross". by Joe Crews

"The question is; how does Christ's death make it possible for Him to forgive sin? This brings us to the crux of all we have learned so far. It was necessary for Jesus to suffer the second death in order to acquire the power to forgive.

The germ of all forgiveness is rooted in an act of substitution. Whoever forgives another person must actually substitute himself for the one he forgives, and be willing to suffer the consequences of the wrong done...

This illustration brings us very close to the heart of the atonement.

The punishment for sin is not the first death, but the second death. That is why the protracted agony of Jesus on the cross was totally unlike any other death. Thousands of criminals were crucified in the same physical way that Christ was nailed to the cross, but they suffered only the bodily pain of the first death. He experienced the awful condemnation and separation from God that the vilest of sinners will feel in the lake of fire. His sensitive nature was traumatized by sharing vicariously the guilt of foul rapes, murders, and atrocities. He became sin in order to allow the full wrath of the law to fall upon Him in exactly the same way it would fall upon the lost.

In no other way can we explain the mysterious anguish of spirit which surrounded our Savior in His closing hours of life. From the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus bore the accumulated sins of mankind on His breaking heart. Not one ray of light was permitted to penetrate the blanket of total alienation from His Father in heaven. In order to take the place of guilty sinners and to provide forgiveness there could be no difference in their penalty and His penalty.

Let no one suggest that the Father did not suffer equally with His Son. The divine forbearance of God in allowing wicked men to torture His Son to death is the ultimate proof that He loves us with the same love that He loved Jesus."


The second death is physically dying while cut off from the Father. Did Jesus not physically die while cut off from the Father?

If he didn't then He died for nothing because He had to pay the FULL penalty for everyone's combined sins all compounded.

James, I believe Jesus drained the dregs of the cup. It was empty and dry and when He triumphantly proclaimed, It is finished. He consumed and conquered the cup and lived to tell about it. Satan, the scapegoat, will pay the "full" and "final penalty" and suffer the "final punishment". Unlike Jesus, however, he will not live to tell about it. He will succumb and die eternally. No resurrection.


Sister White defines the "full and final penalty" as the "second death". "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} The "sense of the loss of His Father's favor" will not be withdrawn. He will not accomplish his work. He will not drain the cup, win the battle, be victorious, or be a conqueror before he voluntary lays down and takes up his life.


The elements highlighted in red in the passages above are not parts of the second death.

Brother, you are arguing against me on the level of Semantics.

If you believe Jesus drank the cup to the dregs then you believe He died the second death, because the cup of God's indignation is His wrath, it is hell or the second death. It is hell to drink the cup, if you drink it (sympathize with Jesus having drunk it) on this side of death you live later, if you don't, you die at the second resurrection.

The reason Jesus was not HELD by the second death is because He had not sinned. He willingly suffered the consequences of every sin that would ever take place, literally entering into the hearts of wicked men, literally suffering the same torment as every man who has ever lived would have felt during the second death.

If you agree with all these statements which I have been presenting since the first day I was prompted to post here then why are you arguing over semantics?

Jesus 'suffered' the second death for us. Is that better?

He died under the curse and became 'sin for us' in Gethsemane carrying these to the cross for EVERY MAN. This is why every man could be saved.

If He became sin for us, becoming the serpent raised on the pole so we can look and live, and the death that sin caused is cast into the lake of fire, then Jesus died while under the curse of being Cut Off from the Father which means He died the second death for us.

This is what gives Him the right to put the confessed sins of God's people on the head of Satan so he can die the second death in the end. But Satan does not die with the sins of the whole world on his head, only the confessed sins of God's people cleansed from the Ark, so Satan does not even come close to suffering as much as Jesus did in Gethsemane. (Think on this!)

Satan was not the sin bearer, Jesus was. You make it sound as if Satan pays the ultimate penalty for sin.

"It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when He bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God’s law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {5BC 1103.3}

Here it seen that Jesus became accounted as one of the unrepentant sinners here. He carried everyone's sin, not just the confessed ones like Satan in the end.

Isn't it more than semantics if I believe Jesus consumed and conquered the second death and you believe the second death consumed and killed Jesus?

Now you're putting words into my mouth. Where did I say that? You say I said something I never said so you are bearing false witness.

Here is the complete picture. (If you read the blog I posted and the beginning of this thread it is all there http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html)

Jesus left the upper room knowing His mission was to be forsaken and suffer our second death. He did it willingly to save us. It was not forced on Him He did it willingly.

When He left the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem, when He crossed the brook Kidron, the place of regeneration for sinners, the stream Mrs White was told had a "secret spring of living water" at the bottom of it, this is where He willingly left the communion with His Father, knowing He was to be 'Cut off'. When He prayed that the cup pass from Him and no answer from the Father He still continued and said "your will be done". He had faith even though He could not see through to the resurrection.

His heart willingly bore our sins and suffered for us so we would not have to die the second death. Where in anything I wrote under the influance of the Holy Spirit did I say "the second death consumed and killed Jesus"?

You are a master of double talk. I could quote three things you misquoted in a few posts. Why are you doing this? I don't think your stupid, so that leaves the fact that you have another motivation/strategy for using lies like this.

"...He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God...." {CSA 39.2}

The sense of sin, dying the second death is what broke the heart of Christ but He did it willingly so He could conquer the second death for us by allowing His heart to broken by being cut off from the Father. The second death is what broke His heart but He laid His life down so we could live.

"Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God—it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God." {SC 13.1}

If you are a true brother you would recant your last statement but I wont hold my breath.

". . . you believe the second death consumed and killed Jesus". I recant. Instead, you believe the "second death is what broke His heart but He laid His life down so we could live."

Sister White defines the "full and final penalty" as the "second death". "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} Satan, not Jesus, will "suffer the final punishment" with the sins of the saved. Satan, not Jesus, will pay the full and final penalty in the lake of fire with the sins of the saved. How do you explain these inspired insights?


1. Before Jesus voluntarily ended His own life, the "sense of the loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn".
2. "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do".
3. "The battle had been won."
4. "By faith, Christ was victor."

These are not part of the second death experience. How do you explain them?

First of all, the quote you keep misquoting, "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} is not about Satan at all Mountain Man, and it freaks me out that you maintain your haughty attitude while continually misquoting the evidence you claim to support your conjecture. Your quote is about every Sabbath keeping sinner that has not continued to keep the Sabbath...

Here is the complete quote from page 533 of Testimonies volume 1;

"The Sabbath was made for the benefit of man; and to knowingly transgress the holy commandment forbidding labor upon the seventh day is a crime in the sight of heaven which was of such magnitude under the Mosaic law as to require the death of the offender. But this was not all that the offender was to suffer, for God would not take a transgressor of His law to heaven. He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1}

So are you saying that every sinner in the second resurrection suffers the full penalty for every sin ever committed by every sinner? Are men the sin bearers now? This verse is about those who have un-confessed sins upon their record at their death, thus they are resurrected in the second resurrection and their sins are upon their own heads. Unconverted sinners die the second death for their own un-confessed sins. I am quite certain you knew this and are only baiting me because you can't be this ignorant.

The scapegoat only received the confessed sins of Israel which had been transferred to the Ark of the Covenant placed there through the propitiation, surely you must know these things being a teacher of Israel eh?

About your specific last question, "These are not part of the second death experience. How do you explain them?" Here is a quote, I hope you see what is here for you, if not I will explain.

(In Gethsemane) "The disciples were suddenly aroused from their slumber by a bright light shining upon and around the Son of God. They started up in amazement, and beheld a heavenly being, clothed in garments of light, bending over their prostrate Master. With his right hand he lifted the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and with his left hand he pointed toward Heaven. His voice was like the sweetest music, as he uttered soothing words presenting to the mind of Christ the grand results of the victory he had gained over the strong and wily foe. Christ was victor over Satan; and, as the result of his triumph, millions were to be victors with him in his glorified kingdom. {3SP 101.1}

Here she says that Christ was victor over Satan in Gethsemane, which is where I saw Jesus dying my second death sweating blood on the same spot the Red Heifers blood was cast, beginning the three days and three nights sign of Jonah.

Do you agree Gethsemane would begin His second death experience? So He was victor over Satan in Gethsemane and this would be the second death correct? Fill in the blanks for the rest.

I better bow out before Admin shuts us down.

Oh so you don't want to correct your statement since you were proven wrong? You are showing your true colors.

It takes a true child of God to admit when you have lied or misquoted someone. I guess that's too much to ask.

Mt Man, I wouldn't pursue this issue if I didn't see the truth so clearly in the VISION GOD GAVE ME. I only ask for those witnessing this to test the Spirit of the vision, this is an integral part of the last day message. It is the three days and nights 'sign of Jonah', the only sign that will be given to this wicked and adulterous generation.

Pray to God for His guidance in testing the vision by the truth, I promise in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus that you will be blessed. There is nothing wrong with this. Peace.

Praise God. As I have shared several times on this website, I have shared the vision of Jesus dying our second death in Gethsemane with many different SDA pastors including Pastor Doug Bachelor and out of them he was the one who responded most positive.

Others have used what God showed me in vision and dreams to formulate sermons before (such as Pastor Ivor Meyers) but no one has come close to listening to the whole vision like Pastor Doug did in this sermon that has just been released. Especially the Gethsemane segment (Part 2)


Part 1; Last Supper http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/2825.aspx

Part 2 Gethsemane http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/2978.aspx

Part 3 Accused and Abused http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/2998.aspx

Part 4 Calvary http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/2983.aspx

Part 5 Resurrection http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/3008.aspx

Part 6 Parting Words http://www.amazingfacts.org/television/everlasting-gospel/ctl/playmedia/mid/1022/mdid/2988.aspx

This is by far one of the best sermon series I have ever seen and I am so honored to have been part of the inspiration. Thank you Father.

These are the times when a fire burns within me against SDA. THEY DO NOT READ THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES. The "second death" is mentioned ONLY in the book of Revelation; and it is mentioned FOUR times, in the last two of which its definition is given.

1. Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

2. Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

3. Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH

4. Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Quick question? What is the Second death? Is it:

A: Death by crucifixion?
B: Messianic Death?
C: Post-millennial lake of fire death?
D: Death pronounced 'second death' by a prophet?
E: Not well-defined for a definite answer?

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

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Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Quick question - what kind of death is this verse speaking about?

This thread seeks to promote the idea that Jesus Christ died "the second death".

1. Did Jesus Christ fail to "overcome"?
2. Did Jesus Christ miss "the first resurrection"?
3. Was Jesus Christ cast "into the lake of fire where death and hades are"?

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Why didn't you answer the question regarding Romans 6:23 before asking other questions???

Rom. 6:23 is a general principle. The wages of sin IS death. But the term "death" as Paul uses it there is ambiguous. Earlier he spoke of being dead to sin (see verse 11), by which he means "be disobedient to disobedience and therefore die because of your sin against disobedience. Endure the trials for taking a stand against wrong." Space does not permit me to go into all the nuances of death to which Paul alludes in Rom.6.

Given the title of the thread, APL's question is a deviation from the topic. We are not discussing types of death but whether Jesus Christ died "THE SECOND DEATH", a term mentioned and defined for us ONLY in the Revelation; unless of course you can provide the verse elsewhere where "SECOND DEATH" is mentioned.

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John 8:48-52 Then answered the Jews, and said to him, Say we not well that you are a Samaritan, and have a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honor my Father, and you do dishonor me. 50 And I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews to him, Now we know that you have a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and you say, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

What death is Jesus talking about???

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

What death did Jesus taste for every man???

We are born, He was born as well. We are tempted, He was tempted as well. We die, He died as well. He lives, all will live as well: but every man in his own order. As it is written, "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." (Heb. 2:11)

Jesus did NOT die "THE SECOND DEATH", a term mentioned and defined for us ONLY in the Revelation; unless of course you can provide the verse elsewhere where "SECOND DEATH" is mentioned. See post #155097.

1. Did Jesus Christ fail to "overcome"?
2. Did Jesus Christ miss "the first resurrection"?
3. Was Jesus Christ cast "into the lake of fire where death and hades are"?
4. Did Jesus Christ fail to keep His Father's word?

The answer to these three plus one questions is an emphatic NO. Jesus did not die the "SECOND DEATH".

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Hm - did you read the quotes I posted? You have ignored them. Perhaps you don't understand them. Interesting...