Born sinning or born sinners?

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Psalms 51:5
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

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do we inherit a nature geared to sinning, or is it a clean slate at birth and we learn to sin?

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Sin in its essence is selfishness.

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Please explain these verses, John Howard:

Selfishness is sin, and it grieves away the Spirit of Christ....

All sin is selfishness....

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
If children are concieved and born sinless (I'm not suggesting they are) - then, do they need a Saviour? At what point do humans require a Saviour? Does the word "all" in the text "all have sinned" exclude children before the age of accountability?

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Are babies ever guilty of sins of ignorance?

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Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

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The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

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The law does not distinquish between sins of ignorance and sins committed with full and complete knowledge of right and wrong.

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In the case of infants who die before they know the difference between right and wrong God will impute to them the life they would have lived had not death taken them prematurely.

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John Howard If you agree that we are born "geared to sin", how can you conclude that there is no disease of sin?

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Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

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God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. (SC 30)

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Yes, far-fetched is putting it mildly. This concept is meaningless. A life not lived does not exist.

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God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man (SC 30).

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Surrender, yes, infants definitely manifest selfish behaviour. But, I'm not sure about the idea that everyone is saved until they choose to be lost?

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Matthew 5:27,28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

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God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man (SC 30).

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If you find that her words are infallible because the same Spirit that inspired her also inspired the writers of the Bible, then I suggest looking at it in a much broader scope and realizing that hell was made for the devil and his angels, God doesn't want to destroy the wicked sinners on this earth, but to instead turn away, and if you don't you will find yourself with a rather rude awakening.

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But, I'm not sure about the idea that everyone is saved until they choose to be lost?

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Numbers 15:27-31
(27) And if any soul sins through ignorance, then he shall bring a female goat of the first year for a sin offering.

(28) And the priest shall make atonement for the soul who sins ignorantly, when he sins by ignorance before YHWH, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

(29) You shall have one Law for him who sins through ignorance, both for him who is born among the people of Israel, and for the stranger who sojourns among them.

(30) But the soul who does anything presumptuously, whether he is born in the land, or a stranger, that person dishonors YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

(31) Because he has despised the word of YHWH, and has broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

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I haven't read the discussion, but in my view we are born sinners because we are born selfish (with a selfish human nature), and selfishness is sin, whether expressed in acts or not; besides, by selfishness we are born separated from God.

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Unless someone wants to say that fetuses transgress God's law in the womb; that's the only way we can be born sinners!

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Christ partook of the same heredity that we do, without exception.

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The Bible says it's sin that separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2), not being born

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Christ partook of the same heredity that we do, without exception.

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

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T: You're misapplying EGW's use of the word "propensities." Sinful propensities, as she used the term, refers to cultivated habits, not genetic predisposition.

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She says we need not retain our sinful propensities, which would of course be impossible if they were genetic.

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

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I don't know, Tom: I agree with the general tone of your last few posts, but can we not have freedom when trully born again from our genetic propensities as well? Is the drunk's gene to always rule over the redeemed, or is rebirth actual recreation, rewiring, recoding, if we have the faith of Jesus?

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Tom, the quotes shared earlier in this thread make it abundantly clear that unborn babies begin developing character in the womb. What choices do they make? Well, I'm sure whatever choices do they make are instinctive, spontaneous, not unlike many of the choices we make, choices which we immediately regret and repent of.

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This statement is absolute nonsense if we consider it to be genetic. Let's try it out and see:
He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him sinful genes.

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Originally posted by Phil N. D'blanc:
The Victorian usage of the word "propensity" is often missaplied today in SDA circles.

Here is Webster's two meaning:

1.a natural inclination or tendency; bent

2.[Obscure] favorable inclination; bias (for)

The first sounds applicable to genetic and/or learned twists in personality.

But the other, being the old usage, I feel the one EGW would have used, appears to be a matter of decision and will, a relish, attraction or enjoyment. This Christ could not have had toward any sin.

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The first sounds applicable to genetic and/or learned twists in personality.(emphasis mine)

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Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man's nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. (RH 2/18/90)

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A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5. (Christ and His Rightouesness "God Manifest in the Flesh")

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Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.

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In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. (DA 117)

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What a sight was this for Heaven to look upon? Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition (1SM 253)

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Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity (3SM 134)

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. (DA 49)

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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When we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.

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So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear—flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin, flesh, however, in which He did not sin, but He bore our sins in that flesh of sin. Do not set this point aside.

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In the evening Professor Prescott gave a most valuable lesson, precious as gold. The tent was full, and many stood outside. All seemed to be fascinated with the word, as he presented the truth in lines so new to those not of our faith. Truth was separated from error, and made, by the divine Spirit, to shine like precious jewels. (1/7/96)

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She called J&W, "messengers of God", endorses them over 200 times in writing as well as toured and preached in tandem, on the paltform with them for three years!

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That’s the whole point. If we are born sinners, and if Christ was born with a spiritual sinful nature like ours, He was also born a sinner, and, therefore, couldn’t be our Saviour.

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The theme of redemption will be the science and the song of the eternal ages, and well may it occupy our minds during our short stay here. There is no portion of this great theme that makes such a demand on our minds in order to appreciate it in any degree, as the subject we shall study tonight,—The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.' Through Him all things became; now He Himself became. He who had all glory With the Father, now lays aside His glory and becomes flesh. He lays aside His divine mode of existence, and takes the human mode of existence, and God becomes manifest in the flesh. This truth is the very foundation of all truth. Let us consider, first, what kind of flesh, for this is the very foundation of this question as it relates to us personally (Heb. 2:14—18, quoted).

"That through death, being made subject to death, 'taking upon Him the flesh of sin, He might, by His dying, destroy him that had the power of death [Heb. 2: 16, quoted] . . So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear—flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin, flesh, however, in which He did not sin, but He bore our sins in that flesh of sin. Do not set this point aside...

"God made man a little lower than the an­gels, but man fell much lower by his sin. Now he is far separated from God; but he is to be brought back again. Jesus Christ came for that work: and in order to do it, He came, not where man was before he fell, but where man was af­ter he fell. . Jesus Christ comes right down to where he is, and meets him there. He takes his flesh and becomes a brother to him. Jesus Christ is a brother to us in the flesh; He was born into the family. .

"He came and took the flesh of sin that this family had brought upon itself by sin, and wrought out salvation for them, condemning sin in the flesh. . To redeem man from the place into which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by human­ity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. .

"Christ came, and after a forty days' fast the devil tempted Him to use His divine power to feed Himself. And notice, it was in sinful flesh that He was tempted, not the flesh in which Adam fell. This is wondrous truth, but I am wondrously glad that it is so. It follows at once that by birth, by being born into the same fam­ily, Jesus Christ is my brother in the flesh, 'for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren' (Heb. 2: 11). He has come into the fam­ily, identified Himself with the family, is both father of the family and brother of the family. As father of the family, He stands for the family. He came to redeem the family, condemning sin in the flesh, uniting divinity with flesh of sin. . " 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' (1 Tim. 2:5). There is a man in heaven now,­ the man Christ Jesus,—bearing our human na­ture; but it is no longer a flesh of sin; it is glori­fied. Having come here and lived in a flesh of sin, He died; and in that He died, He died unto sin; and in that He lives, He lives unto God. When He died, He freed Himself from the flesh of sin, and He was raised glorified. . Jesus Christ, our own brother, the man Christ Jesus, is in heaven, living to make intercession for us

"This union of the divine and the human has brought Jesus Christ very near to us. There is not one too low down for Christ to be there with him. He identified Himself completely with this human family. . One version reads, 'Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My little brothers, ye have done it unto Me.' Christ looks upon everyone of the human fam­ily as His. When humanity suffers, he suffers. He is humanity; He has joined Himself to this family. .

“Jesus Christ thus united Himself with the human family, that He might be with us by be­ing in us, just as God was with Him by being in Him. The very purpose of His work was that He might be in us, and that, as He represented the Father, so the children, the Father, and the El­der Brother might be united in Him. .

" 'Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world' (Matt. 28:20). By being in us, He is with us alway, and that this might be pos­sible, that He might be in us, He came and took our flesh. This also is the way in which the ho­liness of Jesus works. He had a holiness that enabled Him to come and dwell in sinful flesh, and help sinful flesh by His presence in it; and that is what He did, so that when He was raised from the dead, He was glorified. His purpose was that having purified sinful flesh by His ind­welling presence, He might now come and pu­rify sinful flesh in us, and glorify us. He 'shall change our Vile body. that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself' (Phil. 3:21) . .

"Let us enter into the experience that God has given Jesus Christ to us to dwell in our sinful flesh, to work out in our sinful flesh what He worked out when He was here. He came and lived here that we might through Him reflect the image of God. This is the very heart of Chris­tianity . .

"By following where He leads, we shall know what Christian experience is, and what it is to dwell in the light of His presence. I tell you, this is a wondrous truth. Human language cannot put more into human thought or language than is said in these words: 'The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,' This is our salvation. . Nothing short of it will meet what we have to meet,—the world, the flesh, and the devil. But He that is for us is mightier than he that is against us. Let us have in our daily lives Jesus Christ, 'the Word' that 'became flesh,' "—W. W. Prescott, Sermon given October 31, 1895

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A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5.

The following statement in the book of Hebrews is very clear on this point:

For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. ["For verily not of angels doth He take hold, but He taketh hold of the seed of Abraham." Revised Version.] Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted. Heb. 2:16-18

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Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if he had, he would have fallen under similar temptations. If he did not have man's nature, he could not be our example. If he was not a partaker of our nature, he could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for him to yield to temptation, he could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. (RH 2/18/90)

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It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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The Creator and the creature, the nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus,--the Son of God and the Son of man.

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"It was in the order of God that Christ should take on the form and nature of fallen man. "(4SG 115).

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"His human nature was created: it did not even possess angelic powers. It was human, identical to our own:”—(3SM 129)

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"The great work of redemption could be car­ried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam. . He would take man's fallen nature and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam ' " (RH 2/24/74).

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Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if he had, he would have fallen under similar temptations. If he did not have man's nature, he could not be our example. If he was not a partaker of our nature, he could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for him to yield to temptation, he could not be our helper.

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"Let us enter into the experience that God has given Jesus Christ to us to dwell in our sinful flesh, to work out in our sinful flesh what He worked out when He was here. He came and lived here that we might through Him reflect the image of God. This is the very heart of Chris­tianity.

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So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear—flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin, flesh, however, in which He did not sin, but He bore our sins in that flesh of sin. Do not set this point aside.

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[Adam] was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

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Sister White told me of her Guide in Europe, who had stretched His hands out, and said, "There are mistakes being made on both sides in this controversy." Then she added that the "Law in Galatians" is not the real issue of the Conference. The real issue is Righteousness by faith! "E.J. Waggoner can teach righteousness by faith more clearly than I can," said Sister White. "Why, Sister White," I said, "do you mean to say that E. J. Waggoner can teach it better than you can, with all your experience?" Sister White replied, "Yes, the Lord has given him special light on that question. I have been wanting to bring it out more clearly, but I could not have brought it out as clearly as he did. But when he brought it out at Minneapolis, I recognized it." (Interview of J. S. Washburn, a delegate to the 1880 GC, 6/4/50)

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Before passing to some of the practical lessons that are to be learned from these truths, we must dwell for a few moments upon an opinion that is honestly held by many who would not for any consideration willingly dishonour Christ, but who, through that opinion, do actually deny His Divinity. It is the idea that Christ is a created being, who, through the good pleasure of God, was elevated to His present lofty position. No one who holds this view can possibly have any just conception of the exalted position which Christ really occupies. (Christ and His Righteousness)

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Further false doctrines that Haskell and others exposed included: (1) the impartation of the Holy Spirit was primarily for physical manifestations and miracles rather than character preparation for service; (2) perfectionism (understood as “holy flesh”) in the sense of not being able to sin because no temptation now arises from within; (3) Jesus was born with “sinless flesh;” (4) the Holy Spirit insulated Jesus at conception from the law of heredity; (5) sealed people will not die; and (6) sealed people are healed physically as well as spiritually.(http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt18.html#Holy%20Flesh%20Movement)

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When we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.

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[Adam] was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

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Rosangela said: I believe Christ had a fallen nature in regard to the physical and mental or emotional aspects, but I don’t believe Christ had a fallen nature in regard to the spiritual aspect.

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For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

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For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

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For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice]

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Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

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14Since, therefore, [these His] children share in flesh and blood [in the physical nature of human beings], He [Himself] in a similar manner partook of the same [nature], that by [going through] death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death--that is, the devil--

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2:14Since the children, as he calls them, are people of flesh and blood, Jesus himself became like them and shared their human nature. He did this so that through his death he might destroy the Devil, who has the power over death,

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.(DA 49)

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin that caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright; in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil but when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh. ST 10-17-1900

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God has given to the world and to angels the evidence of the changeless character of His love. He would part with His only begotten Son, send Him into the world, clothed in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin and to die upon Calvary's cross to make it manifest to men that there is provision in the counsels of heaven for those who believe in Christ, to keep the commandments of God. Aside from Christ, man cannot in spirit and in truth keep one of the commandments of God, but in Christ Jesus the claims of the law are met, because He transforms the nature of man by His grace, creates in the heart a new spiritual life, implants a holy nature, and men become Christlike in character. {14MR 86.1}

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The sinful nature of man was weak, and he was prone to the transgression of God's commandments. Man had not the power to do the words of God; that is why Christ came to our world, that He might give him moral power. There was no power in heaven or in earth but the power of Christ that could deliver from the [sentence illegible in original]. He came to meet the difficulty and to remove it. His own arm brought salvation. God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh that He might condemn sin in the flesh and reveal the fact to heaven, to the worlds unfallen and also the fallen world, that through the power of divine grace, through partaking of the divine nature, man need no longer stand under the curse of the law or remain in transgression. {14MR 82.3}

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“And that this is likeness to man as He is in His flesh, sinful nature, and not as He was in His original [heavenly] sinless nature, is made certain by the Word: 'We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suf­fering of death.' Therefore, as man is since he became subject to death; this is what we see Jesus to be, in His place, as man (The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection).

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'Seventh-day Adventists teach that, like all man­kind, Christ was born with a 'sinful nature.' " This plainly indicates 'that His heart, too, was 'deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.' In harmony with this, they also teach 'that Christ might have failed while on His mission to earth as man's Saviour­ that He came into the world at the risk of failure and eternal loss,' But the Bible repeatedly states that Christ was holy, that 'He knew no sin,' and that He would 'not fail nor be discouraged,' (sorry for the funny quoting, but that's the way it was from where I grabbed it)

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"Clearly Jesus did not have a sinful nature; He had no sinful passions or any taint of sin. By contrast, all the rest of us are born into the world with these liabilities. On the surface, at least, this looks like a huge advantage for Christ, and calls into question His ability to be our example. " (Jesus Our Example, Norman Gulley)

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And that this is likeness to man as He is in His flesh, sinful nature, and not as He was in His original [heavenly] sinless nature ...

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His history clearly demonstrates where such ideas as "effective" justification, sanctification by faith alone, the sinful nature of Christ, perfectionism and the mystical atonement lead.

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The spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, was made to be sin. Sinless, yet not only counted as a sinner but actually taking upon Himself sinful nature.

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Did Christ have a sinful nature like ours and, therefore, one that challenges us all to obey as perfectly as He did, or is He primarily our Savior first and our Exemplar second? Can sinful human beings perfectly obey a holy law or are the believing saints covered by the imputed merits of Christ all their days and in the last judgment?

http://goodnewsunlimited.org/library/atodayinterview/part1.cfm

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He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (Medical Ministry, p. 181).

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There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harboured an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. (Christ and His Righteousness) http://www.nisbett.com/righteousness/chr/chr06.htm

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But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

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Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God. . . .

Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}

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The SOP tells us it is a mystery unexplained to mortals how Christ was able to overcome sin as a young child.

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"Sinful nature" has been used as synonymous to "sinful flesh" by countless SDA authors.

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Also, would you agree that there is essentially no difference between the mind of the flesh and the mind of the old man?

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MM: The mind of our old man (our cultivated sinful traits of character) is the personification (manifestation) of the mind of our sinful flesh nature (our inherited sinful traits of character).It sounds like you also make a distinction between cultivated and inherited sinful traits of character.

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The story is told of a man whose besetting sin was a violent temper. He would frequently become very angry, but he laid all the blame upon the people with whom he lived, who were so exasperating. Nobody, he declared, could do right among such people. So he resolved, as many others have done, to "leave the world," and become a hermit. He chose a cave in the forest for his dwelling-place, far from any other human habitation. In the morning he took his jug to a spring near by to get water for his morning meal. The rock was moss-grown, and the continual flow of water had made it very slippery. As he set his jug down under the stream, it slid away. He put it back, and again it was driven away. Two or three times was this repeated, and each time the replacing of the jug was done with increasing energy. Finally the hermit's patience was utterly exhausted, and exclaiming, "I'll see if you'll not stay!" he picked the vessel up and set it down with such vehemence that it was broken to pieces. There was nobody to blame but himself, and he had the good sense to see that it was not the world around him but the world inside of him that made him sin.(from The Glad Tidings)

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Adam had no self that had to be denied in order to do God's will, also Eve. They had to go against their biological make up in order to transgress.

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I would agree that the nature of the temptations which Christ faced in the wilderness (and throughout His life) were the same as ours, but not the temptations of Adam and Eve.

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I see their temptations as much different, because they had neither inherited or cultivated tendencies towards evil. That fundamentally changes the nature of temptation.

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Rosangela, do you believe the appetites and passions that Adam and Eve possessed manifested themselves in the same way before and after the Fall?

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He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}

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Tom: But what is it that Adam would like to do rather than the will of God? There was no need for him to deny himself before sin came into the picture because his will *was* God's will; there was no conflict, hence no need for denial.

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But the nature of the temptations was as different as night and day. When Adam was tempted he had not "corrupted principles" or "tendencies to evil" where Christ "came in the likeness of sinful flesh."

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The dynamics of temptation are the same whether the person being tempted is sinless or sinful.

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However, would you agree that possessing sinful nature changes how the temptation impacts us systemically?

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we cannot explain why Jesus did not sin before He reached the age of accountability

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Tom, it isn't as surprising to me that Jesus as a child was able to resist temptations equal to His age and experience. The part I find mysterious and unexplainable is how He, as an infant, was able to behave sinlessly, to avoid the selfish behaviour common to all infants.

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Adam had no self that had to be denied in order to do God's will, also Eve. They had to go against their biological make up in order to transgress.

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Infants aren’t old enough to understand sin and salvation, therefore, they cannot not sin. Except for Jesus. He didn’t sin.

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Does this make any sense? Infants can't sin, except for Jesus, who didn't sin.

Regarding pre-natal development, certainly the actions of the parents are important. I've been arguing this all along. However, the reasons the parents actions are important have to do with character development, which is something which takes place well after the fetus period.

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We are by nature enemies of God, alientated against Him in our mind.

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Tom, would you also say, in addition to being biologically the same as us, that Jesus also inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherited, that is, that part of our human makeup that tempts us, from within, to satisfy our legitimate needs (i.e. appetites and passions) in a sinful manner?

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They exclude the unholy voice aspect of sinful flesh.

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Jesus also inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherited, that is, that part of our human makeup that tempts us, from within, to satisfy our legitimate needs (i.e. appetites and passions) in a sinful manner?

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Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. But provision is made for the repenting sinner, so that by faith in the atonement of the only begotten Son of God, he may receive forgiveness of sin, find justification, receive adoption into the heavenly family, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strengthened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

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And how to babies and fetuses (a nod to MM) get saved? I'm very curious....

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Rosangela, would you agree that Jesus was born, incarnated, with the same "new nature" we are born again with? If so, what is the nature of the new, born again nature?

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Summarizing my position: Jesus had our biological constitution, but not our depraved spiritual constitution - the selfishness and its fruits, with which we are born (our spiritual propensities to sin).

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You can't say He had our biological constitution but deny He had the things that that constituion has (which is sin in its tendency).

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}

Note the contrast between Adam and Christ. Adam had "no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil." BUT when Christ came, etc. So there is a clear contrast between Adam and Christ which involves "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil."

Now we cannot say of Christ Himself that He had "corrupt principles" or "tendencies to evil". Yet a contrast is being made, which clearly includes these things. To what does this apply? Evidently to Christ's flesh, which EGW makes clear in stating that Christ bore the "likeness of sinful flesh." So the conclusion is that the "likeness of sinful flesh" which Christ bore had the "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" which Adam did not have.

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A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5.

The following statement in the book of Hebrews is very clear on this point:

For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. ["For verily not of angels doth He take hold, but He taketh hold of the seed of Abraham." Revised Version.] Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted. Heb. 2:16-18



If He was made in all things like unto His brethren, then He must have suffered all the infirmities and been subject to all the temptations of His brethren. Two more texts that put this matter very forcibly will be sufficient evidence on this point. We first quote 2 Cor. 5:21:

For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is much stronger than the statement that He was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh." He was made to be sin. Here is the same mystery as that the son of God should die. The spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, was made to be sin. Sinless, yet not only counted as a sinner but actually taking upon Himself sinful nature. He was made to be sin in order that we might be made righteousness. So Paul says to the Galatians that "God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Gal. 4:4,5.

In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." "For we have not a High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb. 2:18; 4:15, 16.

One more point and then we can learn the entire lesson that we should learn from the fact that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." How was it that Christ could be thus "compassed with infirmity" (Heb. 5:2) and still know no sin? Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harbored an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. (Christ and His Righteousness, the chapter "God manifest in the flesh")

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So the conclusion is that the "likeness of sinful flesh" which Christ bore had the "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" which Adam did not have.

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Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}

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You can't say He had our biological constitution but deny He had the things that that constituion has (which is sin in its tendency).

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors.(DA 49)

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Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. (DA 49)

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As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good.

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Again, traits or tendencies are not character, rather character is the result of choosing to sin over and over again. Traits are inherited, whereas, character is cultivated. Do you see a difference between an inherited trait of character and a cultivated character trait?

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The tendencies only need to be cut away if they've been exercized. If they are a tendency only in potential, but not in actual practise, there is nothing to cut out.

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It's not necessary to sin first in order to become aware of it, or in order to resist it the first time.

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Was Christ born with a deformed character?

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We are saved or lost based on the character we ourselves develop, not on what we inherit.

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His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall


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be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {13MR 18.2}

These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called that holy thing. It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves: for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the rock, Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {13MR 19.1}

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Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.(DA 49)

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Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if he had, he would have fallen under similar temptations. If he did not have man's nature, he could not be our example. If he was not a partaker of our nature, he could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for him to yield to temptation, he could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. (RH 2/18/90)

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But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. (DA 49)

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One more point and then we can learn the entire lesson that we should learn from the fact that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." How was it that Christ could be thus "compassed with infirmity" (Heb. 5:2) and still know no sin? Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harbored an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. (Christ and His Righteousness)

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"Many say that Jesus was not like us, that He was not as we are in the world, that He was divine, and therefore we cannot overcome as He overcame. But this is not true; 'for verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. . . . For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted.' Christ knows the sinner's trials; He knows his temptations. He took upon Himself our nature. . . . The Christian's . . . strongest temptations will come from within; for he must battle against the inclinations of the natural heart. The Lord knows our weaknesses. . . . Every struggle against sin, every effort to conform to the law of God, is Christ working through His appointed agencies upon the human heart. Oh, if we could comprehend what Jesus is to us!" (Christ Tempted As We Are, pp. 3, 4, 11; 1894).

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Satan beguiled the holy pair to their own destruction, and introduced an element of character that was antagonistic to God and to their fellow-creatures. Before the entrance of sin, the hearts of God's children had been filled with love toward their Creator, and they were in harmony with his will; but upon yielding to the tempter a warring element began to work in the human agent.{ST, December 12, 1895 par. 7}

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The lessons of Christ upon the occasion of receiving the children, should leave a deeper impression upon our minds. The words of Christ encourage parents to bring their little ones to Jesus. They may be wayward, and possess passions like those of humanity, but this should not deter us from bringing them to Christ. He blessed children that were possessed of passions like his own.(ST 1/9/96)

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But Jesus was born born again, and the fact He did not have an evil propensity is also true of born again believers.

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5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

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1- Although someone may not have a propensity for a sin, he still can be tempted to commit that sin. Thus, Adam and Eve had no propensity to doubt, covetousness, intemperance or selfishness, yet they fell in all these sins.

2- The temptations of Christ go beyong ours:

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you are making the assumption that EGW uses these terms completely synonomously, but you have not established this point.

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In fact, it is clear that she does not use these terms synonomously because some of these terms she applies to Christ, and some she doesn't.

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The relevant point is that Christ was in all points tempted as we are, not tempted beyond or in some other way. An earlier quote I provided stated that the difficulties of the Christian are temptations from within, and that Christ understood these difficulties.

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The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity, and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. {FLB 23.2}

"The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. He did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. {FLB 23.3}

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}

How this is accomplished, Christ has shown us. By what means did He overcome in the conflict with Satan? By the Word of God. Only by the Word could He resist temptation. "It is written," He said. And unto us are given "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature. . . ." Every promise in God's Word is ours. . . . When assailed by temptation, look not to circumstances or to the weakness of self, but to the power of the Word. All its strength is yours. {FLB 23.5}

Grasp His promises as leaves from the tree of life: "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37. As you come to Him, believe that He accepts you, because He has promised. You can never perish while you do this--never. {FLB 23.6}

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Upward Look, page 315

No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life. No man can serve two masters whose interests are not in harmony. 'Ye cannot serve God and mammon.'". . . {UL 313.5}

Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God, and yet He pleased not Himself. He took upon Himself human nature for no other purpose than to place man on vantage ground before the world and the whole heavenly universe. He carries sanctified humanity to heaven, there always to retain humanity as it would have been if man had never violated God's law. The overcomers, who upon the earth were partakers of the divine nature, He makes kings and priests unto God. {UL 313.6}

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His life is inconsistent; professedly a Christian, in practice he is yielding to unnatural, sinful propensities that war against the purification and elevation necessary for spiritual superiority. {Te 68.3}

Good works . . . bring us into conflict with natural feelings and propensities, and in fulfilling them we gain victory after victory over the objectionable traits of our characters. {HP 324.6}

While the power of the truth, in all its force, influenced him, he was comparatively safe; but break the force and power of truth upon the mind, and there is no restraint, the natural propensities take the lead, and there is no stopping place. {1T 427.1}

“Said the angel: ‘Sacrifice all for God. Self must die. The natural desires and propensities of the unrenewed heart must be subdued.’” (1T 507)

“The greatest triumph given us by the religion of Christ is control over ourselves. Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame.” (4T 235)

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1MCP 218, 219

TERMS SUCH AS "PASSION" AND "PROPENSITIES" ARE AT TIMES USED. THESE ARE OFTEN QUALIFIED BY SUCH WORDS AS BASER, ANIMAL, LUSTFUL, DEPRAVED, CORRUPT. THIS STRONG LANGUAGE COULD LEAD SOME READERS TO ASSUME THAT ALL PASSION IS CONDEMNED AND ALL SEXUAL ACTIVITY IS EVIL. THE FOLLOWING QUOTATIONS WOULD HARDLY SUSTAIN THIS: {1MCP 218.5}

Not only does God require you to control your thoughts, but also your passions and affections. . . . Passion and affection are powerful agents....Positively guard your thoughts, your passions, and your affections. Do not degrade these to minister to lust. Elevate them [passions and affections] to purity, devote them to God.--2T 561, 564 (1870). {1MCP 218.6}

All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul.--Ms 1, 1888. (AH 128.) {1MCP 219.1}

IN THE SAME CONTEXT IN WHICH SOME OF THE STRONG TERMS REFERRED TO ABOVE ARE USED, SHE URGES THAT THE PASSIONS ARE TO BE CONTROLLED BY WHAT SHE CALLED "HIGHER, NOBLER POWERS," "REASON," "MORAL RESTRAINT," AND "MORAL FACULTIES." SHE WRITES OF TEMPERANCE AND MODERATION AND AVOIDING EXCESS. IN MARRIAGE THOSE PASSIONS COMMON TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE TO BE SUBJECT TO CONTROL, THEY ARE TO BE GOVERNED. NOTE AGAIN: {1MCP 219.2}

Those who regard the marriage relation as one of God's sacred ordinances, guarded by His holy precept, will be controlled by the dictates of reason.--HL, No. 2, p. 48. {1MCP 219.3}

Very few feel it to be a religious duty to govern their passions. . . . The marriage covenant covers sin of the darkest hue. . . . Health and life are sacrificed upon the altar of base passion. The higher, nobler powers are brought into subjection to the animal propensities. . . . Love is a pure and holy principle; but lustful passion will not admit of restraint and will not be dictated to or controlled by reason.--2T 472, 473 (1870). {1MCP 219.4}

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“We are ever to be thankful that Jesus has proved to us by actual facts that man can keep the commandments of God, giving contradiction to Satan’s falsehood that man cannot keep them. The Great Teacher came to our world to stand at the head of humanity, to thus elevate and sanctify humanity by His holy obedience to all of God’s requirements showing it is possible to obey all the commandments of God. He has demonstrated that a lifelong obedience is possible. Thus He gives chosen, representative men to the world, as the Father gave the Son, to exemplify in their life the life of Jesus Christ.

“We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man’s representative and tempted as man’s substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came–a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. . . .

“Bear in mind that Christ’s overcoming and obedience is that of a true human be-ing. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the complete-ness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man.” (3SM 139, 140)

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: AFTER THEIR FALL, WAS ADAM AND EVE'S EXPERIENCE IN RELATION TO SIN AND TEMPTATION EQUAL TO THAT OF THE REST OF HUMANITY OR DIFFERENT FROM IT?

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It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)

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“We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man’s representative and tempted as man’s substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter.

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Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.

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Tom: No, Adam did not need to overcome by faith, just and angels and unfallen angels do not need faith to overcome. I'm not aware of any statements from inspiration, at any rate, which speak of unfallen beings exercizing faith. Are you?

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3- The passage which intrigues me most and which seems to most favor your position is that which says that Christ’s enmity against Satan was in one sense supernatural.

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Our condition through sin is unnatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God on Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. {AG 104.5}

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. {AG 215.5}

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Also faith is contrasted in inspiration to "sight", because God cannot reveal Himself to us in a way that we could see Him in His glory, because it would kill us. However, unfallen beings can see Him, so do not need faith in the same sense we do.

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When Christ came to the earth in person, Satan's fiercest warfare was directed against Him. But by causing the Son of God to be crucified. Satan struck a blow at himself. When Christ died on the cross, Satan's death-knell was sounded. His deceptions were narrowly watched by the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds, as he, in disguise, worked in such a way that he thought he could not possibly be detected. But he was left to follow his own course, to condemn himself by his own deeds. And before the cross of Calvary he stood revealed in his true character. When Christ cried out, "It is finished," the unfallen worlds were made secure. For them the battle was fought and the victory won. Henceforth Satan had no place in the affections of the universe. The argument he had brought forward, that self-denial was impossible with God, and therefore unjustly required from His created intelligences, was forever answered. Satan's claims were forever set aside. The heavenly universe was secured in eternal allegiance. {RH, March 12, 1901 par. 8}

It was because of the issues at stake that the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds watched with such intense interest the struggle between the Prince of life and the prince of darkness. Those who had not sinned needed not the application of Christ's blood, but they did need to be made secure from Satan's power. The result of the conflict had a bearing on the future of all the worlds, and every step that Christ took in the path of humiliation was watched by them with the deepest interest. {RH, March 12, 1901 par. 9}

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To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. {DA 758.2}

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. {DA 758.3}

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Faith as it is generally used in theological terms has to do with conversion.

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Old Tom:Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.

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Once again this is an answer that leaves much to be desired in terms of honesty of answer.

Pshaw.... That's your second slippery answer after chastising someone else for slippery answers on the other thread we were participating in.

[A]nd from the two threads I joined it has become clear that honesty and truth are still being sacrificed on the altar of personal theology.

I can't tell you how disillusioning the reality is. Very, very, very few people actually want to consider all the evidence.

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So, if Christ had to experience everything that we experience in order to show us that victory is possible, there would be no hope for drug addicts, alcoholics and homosexuals (sins based on a repeated behavior). However, the essence of temptation is always the same - to do your will instead of God’s will.

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Gary, I'm not aware of anywhere in inspiration which speaks of unfallen beings exercising faith. However, I'm open to be corrected if you can produce such a statement.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man [on page 11]:
Tom, what is the difference between fallen beings exercising saving faith and unfallen beings exercising non-saving faith? For example, when unfallen beings encounter things they don’t understand they have to trust and believe God until they understand it.

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Romans
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

1 John
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

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36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. 37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, 38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. 40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. 41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. 44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.(Luke 7:36-50)

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And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

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Is taking God at His word all that faith is? Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?

For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?

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I don't see that your response answered any of my questions.

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"Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith."

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I believe that in addition to taking God at His word, these elements are also, in addition, included as essential elements to faith. Do you agree with me on this? You may answer "yes" if you agree, and "no" if you do not.

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If a pharisee, specifically one of the ones who conspired to put Christ to death, were to take God at His Word, would he be exerciaing faith?

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"You may say you believe in Jesus, when you have an appreciation of the cost of salvation. You may make this claim, when you feel tha Jesus died for you on the cruel cross of Calvary, when you have an intelligent understanding faith that His death makes it possible for you to cease from sin, and to perfect a righteous character through the grace of God bestowed upon you as the purchase of Christ's blood." (RH 1/24/88)

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It is the love of God revealed at the cross which leads one to salvation when that love is perceived and responded to.

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