A Different Viewpoint on Sin

Posted By: Ikan

A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/10/05 10:13 AM

There is need for a fresh emphasis in dealing with the sin problem.

Whereas disobedience has been stressed as the prime cause of disease and death, the real cause is separation from the Source.

This does not mean that violation of law can be treated lightly, for all transgression will certainly bring its train of evil. In fact, the full effect of law-breaking is separation from the Source, not only because of God's total aversion to sin but because of what it is.

And what is sin?

There are many valid answers to this question. It is the transgression of the law, enmity against God, the reign of death, and so on. A definition seldom if ever considered is that it is a humanly devised solution to whatever problem is confronting the person. This becomes very obvious when the reasons for lying, killing, stealing, committing adultery, Sabbathbreaking, idol worship, etc., are considered.

Why does a man kill another?

The victim, with some possible exceptions, has become a problem to him. In some way, he either threatens, deprives, or frustrates the killer to the point where he determines to remove him completely. For the same reason, people tell lies and steal. They know no other way to solve their problems.

The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver. It is installing man in God's place, and, as such, is a definite movement away from God. This is why it is impossible for the sinner to maintain the constant connection with the Source that will replenish the losses caused by sin. His iniquity directly cuts off that connection, for sin in all its forms is a rejection of the divine in favor of the human. Thus, there can never be an immortal sinner.
Consequently, every person should fear that which will in any way break the connection between himself and the infinite Source. He should diligently seek every facility whereby the clearest and most powerful impressions of God's position as the Source, Plan-maker, Burden-bearer, and Problem-solver, are refreshed and strengthened. Only thus can God's children be preserved from the awful loss, wretchedness, and ultimate death which arise out of human self-sufficiency.

As the Source, God cannot be replaced, nor can He give this position and responsibility to another, for there is no creature in existence with the capacity to sustain the entire universe. Should the Almighty cease His work, every living creature would become nonexistent, for nature is not self-sustaining. So God does not hold to His position because of that ambitious pride which leads men to strive for and cling to kingship, but because of His infinite love for His children.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 03:41 AM

So, in other words, all sinning is the result of selfishness, right? Because we are born separated from God we naturally sin (by default), right?

FW 94
All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. {FW 94.1}

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {4T 385.1}
Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 06:40 AM

quote:
The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver.
This speaks of justifying ourselves, instead of letting God justify us.

So while Phil has listed various methods. However, the one seldom recognized is the religious doctrinal solution that people formulate using God; instead of letting God justify them.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 07:13 AM

Nope, MM you complete missed the point by attempting to reword my statement. Please read it again slowly, dropping all assumptions and attempts at directing it your way. Just take it as it reads.

John B. Well...in a way yes, but more directly I am talking of our seperating ourselves in a brass-tacks, reality-style and daily way, not in the cosmic sense.

In plainer English:

When we make ourselves our own problem-solver and only "religiously" ask God to bless our own ways, we will always fail.
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 07:20 AM

It's interesting that there are different ways of seeing the same thing. Phil is talking about sin as a human devised solution to a problem. I've not thought of it in that we, but I like it. It ties into the idea of sin in terms of separation from God, and also in terms of installing oneself in the place of God.

John relates it to the idea of putting one's justice in the place of God's.

Another way of thinking of it is in terms of wrong thinking. That is, as a man thinks in his heart, so he is. Unbelief -- not believing the truth about God, that He is kind, generous, gracious, logiving, forgiving, and above all good -- leads ut to seek to solve our problems ourselves rather than trusting Him and inviting Him into our lives, to help us and take care of us, trusting in His lovingkindness as our heavenly Father.

How does God solve the problem? However one thinks of sin or defines it, the solution is the same. He must make Himself familiar and visible to our eyes, revealing Himself to us as He truly is. This is just what He did for us in becoming flesh. Jesus Christ has revealed the Father to us, that we might be set right and kept right. This revelation is the ultimate solution to the sin problem, not just for us who have sinned, but for the whole onlooking universe.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 09:02 AM

Double Bingo, Tom Now we are on the same wave-length!
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 09:54 AM

Yeah, I can see it that way too, John B., if we are talking about "he justified himself with his explanations", as a hypothetical example of the uasge of the word.

Let's take a clear look at David: he was a great man, and greatly loved by God, yet he fouled up every time he "justified himself". He failed flat on his face whenever he become his own problem-solver. He disconected from the Source, in whatever way one can, and looked elsewhere for solutions to many of his adult problems. As a teen, he was very much contrite and listened to God for orders.
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 09:48 PM

I had a post where I discussed God's justice vs. man's justice. John uses this language a lot, and I found it very confusing at first. I had a friend who said something similar to what John had been saying, and things kind of clicked. I can't speak for John, but here's how I understand it.

Our justice is "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth." It is based on retribution and what we think of when we think of human justice. God's justice is forgiveness, and it is based on mercy and compassion.

That's is in a nutshell. We would set things right by demanding a payment. God sets things right by mercy and compassion. We have trouble understanding that, in spite of the fact that He became one of us to show us.
Posted By: Davros

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 10:30 PM

We just had a sermon on this last week. I am still not sure what to think of it. It seemed that his deffiniton was valid (sin is seperation from God), but his application was a little off (we should not spend any time considering sin or judging because of sin).

Is there a better application?
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/11/05 11:38 PM

Sin isn't really separation from God, is it? Isn't that rather a result of sin?

Sin is transgression of the law, which is exceedinly broad (the law, that is). When we insist upon our own will rather than God's will, or insist on putting our own interests above all else, that is sin in its essence as I understand things. This disobedience leads to separation from God, which is tantamount to death.

quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.(DA 764)
This quote is how I see things:
1)One sins.
2)This separates one from God.
3)Which results in death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/12/05 07:06 PM

Okay, Phil, I guess we're not seeing it in the same light. I agree with Tom's insight that sin isn't separation, but rather separation is the result of sin. Sin causes a separation between God and man. Adam and Eve got it started when they sinned. We are born separated, therefore we must chose to be born again, to be reconnected to Christ, so that we can cease sinning and resume maturing in the fruits of Spirit.
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 01:35 AM

I would like to clarify that sin separates *us* from God, not God from us. It causes us to be "alienated in our minds" (Col. 1). It causes us to become enemies of God (He's not our enemy) and our enmity must be healed in order for us to be reconciled. The only way this could be accomplished was for God to become one of us, so we could see how wonderful He really is, rather than being deceived by the lies which Satan and sin preach to us.

The lies tell us that God cannot accept us, that He is angry, and must punish. The truth is that God loves and forgives; His justice is not retribution, but mercy and compassion.

quote:
Thus says the LORD of hosts:
"Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother.
(Zech 7:9)

This is God's justice: showing mercy and compassion.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 01:50 AM

Amen, Tom So right!

Yes, MM you are right. We do not see sin "in the same light", and that is why all are spending so much effort in attempting to get the Light in His true character to you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 08:24 AM

Thank you, Phil. If you agree with Tom's insights regarding sin, then you and I are in agreement, too. Of course, our clearest disagreement is concerning God's part in the punishment and destruction of unsaved sinners. But that's a different topic.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 09:51 AM

HUH? MM I see neither Tom, John. B., Dave or myself agreeing with you, saying that we agree with you or implying that we do.

You need to go back and read my first post and Tom's last one before you make artificial impressesions that we agree with you.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 10:08 AM

I'll make this easy:

Tom states that Satan "... lies tell(ing) us that God cannot accept us, that He is angry, and must punish. The truth is that God loves and forgives; His justice is not retribution, but mercy and compassion."

John B. relates about "justifying ourselves, instead of letting God justify us."

Dave is researching and not quite finished studying the topic.

and I will say again:

"A definition seldom if ever considered is that it is a humanly devised solution to whatever problem is confronting the person...The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver. It is installing man in God's place, and, as such, is a definite movement away from God." This is making himself his own god.

Now in the light of this synopsis, can you still say that you fully agree, MM?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/13/05 11:56 PM

quote:
If you agree with Tom's insights regarding sin, then you and I are in agreement, too.
I am referring to his definition of sin. I didn't say anything about John or Dave. I definitely disagree with the idea that God does not, or has not, destroyed sinners using fire, water, humans, holy or evil angels. But that's a different topic. Here we're talking about the definition of sin.
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 01:28 AM

I think this is what MM is saying he's agreeing with me:

quote:
Sin isn't really separation from God, is it? Isn't that rather a result of sin?

Sin is transgression of the law, which is exceedinly broad (the law, that is). When we insist upon our own will rather than God's will, or insist on putting our own interests above all else, that is sin in its essence as I understand things. This disobedience leads to separation from God, which is tantamount to death.

[quote from DA]God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.(DA 764)[end of DA quote]

This quote is how I see things:
1)One sins.
2)This separates one from God.
3)Which results in death.

Now MM says he disagrees regarding God's destruction of sinners, but this disagreement is vague since I don't think any of us disagrees that God destroys sinners. Where we disagree is regarding the process. We believe the following is true:

quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
Since God's glory is simply His goodness, His character (Ex. 33:18 ff) it stands to reason that the wicked are not destroyed by some arbitrary action on God's part, but rather by virtue of their own sin.

The SAME THING which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked, so it MUST be something different about the wicked which results in their destruction.
Posted By: Ikan

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 06:48 AM

I see....
Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 07:35 AM

quote:
The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver.
This speaks of justifying ourselves, instead of letting God justify us.

Right Phil, I also meant this in a brass-tacks, reality-style and daily way, not in the cosmic sense; the effort at self-justification that people use daily, and it does not have to be big things either. I like to use the scriptural language, so that we would get the realization of the real meaning as opposed to the theoretical concept. So that in seeing one might be set free from participating in the spirit of Satan. The whole issue of the sin problem is in Satan wanting to justify himself. I really like the way you put it in the above sentence.

Another way of saying it is “doubt in God” and “faith in self”.
Another way of saying it is “wrong thinking” because of a “false concept of God” as Tom put it, and I likewise.
Another way of saying it is, not seeing or accepting God’s forgiveness and mercy.
Another way of saying it is, “Come let us reason together says the Lord…”
Another way of saying it is, pride and fear as opposed to humility and trust.
Another way of saying it is, being naked as opposed to clothed with God’s glory.
Another way of saying it is, “those who labor and are heavy laden”.
Another way of saying it is, “our righteousness” as opposed to “God’s righteousness”.

Hopefully this opens some ideas.


Sin brings about condemnation in the heart of the sinner.
In fact self-justification is what makes us guilty and condemned. It is not the initial transgression. The initial transgression opens the door for Satan to accuse us, but the effort of self-justification is what brings about condemnation and makes us “guilty” in such a way, as God says that he “can in no wise clear the “guilty”.

So as long as one is justifying himself he remains in that “guilty” state and God cannot help him until he turns to God trusting. Then God can give him the spirit of forgiveness and mercy whereby he will be set free from the condemnation of sin (self-justification) and cease to be the “guilty”.

This is a genuine reality experienced in the mind and heart of every transgressor. That is why they do all the things you mentioned to try to cover themselves. Those who think that sinners need somebody to condemn them, have a false concept of God and sin. All that is needed is a revelation of the transgression and the sinner’s own justice sets in (whatever it is). Every effort at self-justification only compounds the original problem.

[ July 14, 2005, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 08:00 AM

quote:
Sin isn't really separation from God, is it? Isn't that rather a result of sin?
Here we can have either a correct or a false concept, and I am not clear on the point that is being agreed on.

One way to separate sin from the result is that the result is caused by something other than sin, which could be in line with MM’s thinking, but an odd thought for you Tom.

On the other hand the other way to understand it is as in my post above, where the actual separation is the “sin of self-justification” as opposed to the initial transgression. But in this case it is “sin” that actually and really separates and the correct concept of sin is needed. So from Phil’s presentation of this “different viewpoint of sin” it is sin itself that separates.
Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 08:11 AM

I think I see after rereading your post Tom, that you seem to be talking of separation in an absolute sense. I think it is important to recognize it also in the great controversy sense of whether it is of God’s spirit or not.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 09:07 AM

Tom, what process was at work when God used fire and water to destroy unsaved sinners in the OT? Perhaps you might want to consider answering this question on a different thread?
Posted By: Tom

Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin - 07/14/05 10:07 PM

John, I agreed with your post above relating to self-justification. I see things the same way you do, I'm quite sure; just slightly different language to explain the same ideas.

Regarding sin and separation, I was making the point that sin is not "separation from God" but rather causes separation from God. To use my language, sin is the wrong thinking which leads to us separating ourselves from God.

MM: EGW describes the process at work in great detail in the chapter "The Destruction of Jerusalem" in the Great Controversy, especially towards the end, like pp. 35-37.
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