What does God require before we are baptized?

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I am writing to tell you that you must not associate with those who call themselves believers in Christ but who sin sexually, or are greedy, or worship idols, or abuse others with words, or get drunk, or cheat people. Do not even eat with people like that. It is not my business to judge those who are not part of the church. God will judge them. But you must judge the people who are part of the church. The Scripture says, "You must get rid of the evil person among you."
1 Corinthians 5:11 – 13 NCV

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Matthew 3:6
Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

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Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

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Matthew 28: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

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Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

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Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

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Acts 19 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

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1 Corinthians 1 10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

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Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:19 – 20 HCSB

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One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
American Heritage® Dictionary

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All Scripture is given by God and is useful for teaching, for showing people what is wrong in their lives, for correcting faults, and for teaching how to live right.
2 Timmothy 3:16 NCV

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Baptism is a profession of one's faith, and a statement that they want to belong to the family of God. If the SDA Church is the remnant, that would make us part of the family of God.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:

Perfection? No!

A willingness to strive for perfection? Yes!

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There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. We are not only to say, "I believe," but to practice the truth. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character, that we prove our connection with Him. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave Himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. And love is manifested in obedience.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 91, 92. (1900) {Ev 308.4}

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I want to know Christ and the power that raised him from the dead. I want to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death. Then I have hope that I myself will be raised from the dead. I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his. Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead, I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize for which God called me through Christ to the life above.

Philippians 3:10 – 14 NCV

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It does not sound like even Paul was at perfection. Do you make the claim of perfection? Were you perfectly obedient when and after you were baptized? As my father would say, “be careful that lying does not break your perfection.”

It would seem that Paul was not perfect in his baptism, and it seems unlikely that any of use was, so can we expect of others what we do not have to offer?

What is the difference you ask? One is a human claing perfection, but the other is a person that wants to give their life to Christ. Of how much worth is the promis and claim of a human?

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Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . .
That I May Know Him p.130

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Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character.
That I May Know Him p.130

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
The remnant church of prophecy is the SDA church, which is the remnant of the apostolic church. No other church is the remnant church. All other churches are descendants of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church.

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I have other sheep that are not in this flock, and I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:16 NCV

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:

But let's not forget that there are some family members in other churches.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

The remnant church has been commissioned to call people out of Babylon and to baptize them into the SDA doctrine (all 28 of them) and church. To

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

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Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

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27. The Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.

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Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (1T 340)

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
[QB]
The remnant church has been commissioned... to baptize them into the SDA doctrine (all 28 of them)...

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Very strange thing mister Mountain friend, I have looked at the scriptures and the SOP but I have not found this statement anywhere. Could you search the testimony of Jesus and find this one for me, I would appreciate it.

• I believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit.
• I accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for my sins, and believe that through faith in His shed blood I am saved from sin and its penalty.
• I renounce the world and its sinful ways, and have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, and believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven my sins and given me a new heart.
• I accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as my Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and claim His promise to strengthen me by His indwelling Sprit, so that I may receive power to do His will.
• I believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian.
• I accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and it is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord.
• I look forward to the soon coming of Jesus as the blessed hope in my heart, and I am determined to be ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in my power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing.
• I accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church.
• I believe in church organization, and it is my purpose to support the church by my tithes and offerings, and by my personal effort and influence.
• I believe that my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I will honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs.
• I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.
• I accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and desire to be so baptized as a public expression of faith in Christ and His forgiveness of my sins.
• I accept that the Seventh-day Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship. I desire to be a member in this local congregation of the world church.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
The 28 fundamental beliefs of the remnant church, the SDA church, are a summary of "all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20).

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Dave, if we follow the counsel of the SOP, that is, if we thoroughly prepare people for baptism, what do they lack? What makes them imperfect? What makes them disobedient? What more is required before they are perfectly obedient?

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In what way was Paul imperfect? In what way was he disobedient? What was lacking in his life? Did he ever reach the “goal” or the “mark” he spoke about? If you believe he did reach the goal, in what way was he different before and after he reached the goal?

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Dave, help me understand the following insights:

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)

According to these quotes, are we born again perfect or imperfect? By perfect I don’t mean mature; rather, I mean complete.

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“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330) “When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

According to these quotes, what are we missing or lacking the moment we are born again?

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“At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God’s purpose for us is fulfilled, there will also be continual advancement.” (COL 65) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (1T 340) “‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

According to these quotes, in what way are we different as we advance from one stage of perfection to another? Do we become less and less sinful, or do we become more and more mature in the fruits of Spirit?

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“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

According to this quote, in what way will we progress throughout eternity, in what way will we be different?

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“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts.” (6BC 1118)

According to this quote, do we start off [at rebirth] sinless, or do we end up sinless? If we end up sinless, how long does it take? And, why don’t we start off sinless?

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I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Even if one may be perfect, to claim perfection is to exalt self, and that leads back to the sin of pride. So, the way I see it, no one can claim perfection.

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"Double M's" responce:

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What are we to do? Preach the "Good News," unveil the truth, and accept people into our fellowship.

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"Double M's" responce:

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Does that mean we were not teaching "all things" Jesus commanded untill this year (with the new (28th) fundamental belief)?

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"Double M's" responce:

If Paul was perfect after his convertion, why did he have an argument about John Mark? Wan't it Paul that wrote:

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But now also put these things out of your life: anger, bad temper, doing or saying things to hurt others, and using evil words when you talk.
Colossians 3:8 NCV

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I want to know Christ and the power that raised him from the dead. I want to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death. Then I have hope that I myself will be raised from the dead. I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his. Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead, I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize for which God called me through Christ to the life above.

Philippians 3:10 – 14 NCV

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Peter deigned Jesus

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"Double M's" responce:

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Even if one may be perfect, to claim perfection is to exalt self, and that leads back to the sin of pride. So, the way I see it, no one can claim perfection.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What are we to do? Preach the "Good News," unveil the truth, and accept people into our fellowship.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Does that mean we were not teaching "all things" Jesus commanded untill this year (with the new (28th) fundamental belief)?

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But now also put these things out of your life: anger, bad temper, doing or saying things to hurt others, and using evil words when you talk.
Colossians 3:8 NCV

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I want to know Christ and the power that raised him from the dead. I want to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death. Then I have hope that I myself will be raised from the dead. I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his. Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead, I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize for which God called me through Christ to the life above.

Philippians 3:10 – 14 NCV

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Peter deigned Jesus

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Peter denied Jesus before his conversion.

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This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 2:11)

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All the disciples were converted (meaning that they had believed in Christ), except Judas. This is an important point to understand because otherwise we miss much of Jesus' instruction for converted persons such as the disciples and us. That is, by thinking we are converted, but they weren't, we are in danger of placing ourselves out of hearing that which the Lord would have us hear.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Was Peter baptized before or after Jesus’ death?

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Simon Peter answered, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but wash my hands and my head, too!" Jesus said, "After a person has had a bath, his whole body is clean. He needs only to wash his feet. And you men are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:9 - 10 NCV

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

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Dave, if we follow the counsel of the SOP, that is, if we thoroughly prepare people for baptism, what do they lack? What makes them imperfect? What makes them disobedient? What more is required before they are perfectly obedient?

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Dave’s Answer:

MM’s Answer: They lack nothing. So long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man nothing makes them imperfect, nothing makes them disobedient, and nothing more is required.

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In what way was Paul imperfect? In what way was he disobedient? What was lacking in his life? Did he ever reach the “goal” or the “mark” he spoke about? If you believe he did reach the goal, in what way was he different before and after he reached the goal?

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Dave’s Answer: Paul liked to argue and Peter deigned Jesus; does that sound like perfection to you?

MM’s Answer: Obviously, Paul sinned before his rebirth. But, there isn’t any evidence he sinned after his conversion and baptism. While Paul was walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man he was not imperfect or disobedient. The goal he was hoping to reach was to “attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” That is, he was striving to be faithful until the day he died. Yes, he was successful.

“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:7, 8)

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Dave, help me understand the following insights:

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)

According to these quotes, are we born again perfect or imperfect? By perfect I don’t mean mature; rather, I mean complete.

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Dave’s Answer: Indeed, if we are to be perfect at baptism, why does Ellen White say that perfection should be reached for throughout a lifetime? Does that mean one cannot be baptized until they are about to die?

MM’s Answer: Sister White clearly says we are born again perfect, that is, complete. Nothing is missing or lacking when we are born again. We are not, however, born again mature. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We start off with a clean slate. We begin the lifelong (including eternal life) process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.

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“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330) “When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

According to these quotes, what are we missing or lacking the moment we are born again?

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Dave’s Answer: When all becomes new, and one is transformed, it does not mean that one is perfect. It means that one has a desire and will to be perfect and will continue to run the race.

MM’s Answer: We are born again with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character. Not one trait is missing. We do not gradually accumulate them after we are born again. Again, we are not born again mature. Like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit, so too, born again believers will, so long as they are abiding in Jesus, grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

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“At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God’s purpose for us is fulfilled, there will also be continual advancement.” (COL 65) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (1T 340) “‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

According to these quotes, in what way are we different as we advance from one stage of perfection to another? Do we become less and less sinful, or do we become more and more mature in the fruits of Spirit?

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Dave’s Answer: If we were talking about complete perfection, there would be nothing more to learn, but as there is more to learn, there is no absolute perfection.

MM’s Answer: Like Jesus, we begin perfect (complete) and, so long as we are abiding in Jesus, we become perfect (mature). We “advance from one stage of perfection to another.” We become more and more like Jesus, not less and less like Satan. While we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, and cannot, commit a known sin. See 1 John 3:1-10.

The promises of perfection do not imply that born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. To sin, however, we must first disconnect from Jesus, which automatically places us back in the resurrected mind of our old man, and then all we can do is sin. The gift of repentance empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us to mind of the new man. The old man mind is crucified and buried.

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“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

According to this quote, in what way will we progress throughout eternity, in what way will we be different?

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Dave’s Answer:

MM’s Answer: The progress we make throughout eternity is no different than the progress we make here on earth. We will continue to mature in the fruits of the Spirit throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature. The difference we experience as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity, is measured in depth and degree of righteousness, not in terms of becoming less and less sinful.

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“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts.” (6BC 1118)

According to this quote, do we start off [at rebirth] sinless, or do we end up sinless? If we end up sinless, how long does it take? And, why don’t we start off sinless?

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Dave’s Answer:

MM’s Answer: We start off sinless or complete. We do not, however, start off mature. As stated repeatedly above, we, like Jesus, begin perfect (complete), and we become perfect (mature) as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But again, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

Peter denied Jesus before his conversion.

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Simon Peter answered, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but wash my hands and my head, too!" Jesus said, "After a person has had a bath, his whole body is clean. He needs only to wash his feet. And you men are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:9 - 10 NCV

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

Everything changed when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Judas killed himself and the rest were converted.

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Originally posted by rhammen:
Perfect before baptism? That's cute! Mountain Man will lead you on a pretty rugged path if you let him!

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Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . .
That I May Know Him p.130

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Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character.
That I May Know Him p.130

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But the converted Peter was very different.

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We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinfu flesh - not because we are sinning.

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We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinful flesh - not because we are sinning. It is our sinful flesh that is faulty, sinful, imperfect.

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Tom, do you agree that Jesus' human nature was faulty, sinful, and imperfect? and that in spite of it He, like born again believers, was able to perfect sinless traits of character?

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Sister White makes it clear that "humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." Peter, John, and Paul all agree. There is nothing faulty, sinful, or imperfect about the traits of character we develop while partaking of the divine nature.

MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

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Everything associated with us is imperfect, which the Spirit of Prophecy makes clear in many occasions. It's also obvious.

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I commented that this assertion cannot be correct because Jesus lived in sinful flesh, yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect." I asked you if this is correct.

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I'm also having a hard time with the idea that insists Jesus did not possess a faulty, sinful, imperfect human nature. I agree that His character was sinless, but I also believe His human nature was identical to ours. "His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own." (3SM 129)

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... yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect."

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Nowhere does inspiration state anything like "Christ's human nature was defiled".

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“Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.

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“Jacob’s history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord’s eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God’s love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” (GC 620, 621)

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The idea that assuming human nature, taking the likeness of it upon Him, means something different than how we inherit human nature seems strange to me. In what way was Jesus’ human nature different than ours? In what way did He possess it differently than we do?

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What is is that defiles? It is sin. To say the one's human nature is defiled is to imply that one has sinned.

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Tom, bending over backwards to accommodate the disposition of the opposition is one thing, but implying that Jesus was not 100% human, exactly like mankind after 4,000 years of degeneration and degradation, is quite another.

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I am completely uncomfortable with the implication that Jesus was anything but human.

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However, Tom also believes Jesus is human, but in a way different than we are human.

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Like you, I'm still not sure how Tom thinks Jesus humanity was different than our humanity.

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I am convinced Jesus inherited and possessed the same humnan nature we inherited and possess.

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His divinity and sinless track record is the only way He differed from us.

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No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18 Contemporary English Version - CEV)

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Originally posted by Darius:
If we accept that view of the healing motif we will be forced to say that man did not need to be saved until he had sufficiently deteriorated. The evidence contradicts that view. The race needed salvation the moment Satan claimed it as his. The healing that was necessary was to restore the ruptured relationship between man and his Creator, not aspects of man's nature.

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Where we differ is that MM thinks it's OK to say that Christ's human nature was faulty, sinful, defiled etc. I note that the Spirit of Prophecy never uses these expressions, and think it would be better to stick to the expressions which are found in inspiration, such as Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, Christ assumed our fallen nature, Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature etc.

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An area where MM and I differ is that he thinks that our nature defiles us, but I maintain this cannot be the case because then it would have defiled Christ, since He took the same nature we have.

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The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}

Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat. {1SM 344.3}

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Tom, the human mind has an infinite capacity to manipulate the facts so they can fit our conclusions. We will even change the conditions necessary for salvation.

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Tom, the SOP uses defiled, degraded, degenerate, sinful, and unholy to describe the human nature Jesus inherited at His incarnation. His human nature was exactly like ours.{/quote]

Sure, there's no problem with this. This is the same language we should use. The problem comes when we say things like His nature was defiled, or something like that. She's very careful to qualify her statements so as to avoid any confusion, which is just what we should do. Don't you agree?

[quote]Please notice that I am making a distinction between nature and character. Two of your favorite authors, Jones and Waggoner, did the same thing.

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But when we partake of the divine nature, our prayers and praise pass through the divine nature, which purifies them, making them as pleasing and acceptable to God as though they came from Jesus.

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In other words, Jesus doesn’t wait to purify our prayers and praise until after the fact. Instead, He first purifies us, next He empowers us to partake of the nature, and then our prayers and praise ascend to God through the divine nature with the blood and righteousness of Jesus. He doesn’t mix them in afterwards.

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Remember, Jesus set aside His own divinity and lived His life just like a born again believer.

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If Jesus were to wait to purify our prayers and praise until after they leave us, all defiled, displeasing, and unacceptable, it would be too late. To be acceptable and pleasing they must be purified at the source, before they proceed from us. First make the spring clean and then that which flows from it will be pure. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and bad fruit cannot be made good afterwards.

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Tom, it looks like we're starting to say the same thing about nature and character.

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Jesus' human nature was defiled and sinful, but His character was pure and sinless.

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Though He was 100% human, He was also 100% divine. He did not use His own divine nature to overcome His sinful nature; instead, like a born again believer, He chose to partake of His Father’s divine nature.

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This combination made it possible for His prayers and praise to ascend to the Father pure and pleasing. The same thing applies to born again believers. When they partake of the divine nature their prayers and praise ascend to the Father pure and pleasing because the blood and righteousness of Jesus has cleansed them from all sin and unrighteousness.

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But we still haven’t clearly defined the corrupt channels of humanity. What are they?

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Instead she writes about the human nature which Christ took or assumed. This apparently seems like splitting hairs to you, as you don't see the difference, but there's a reason she expressed herself the way she did.

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… it is the righteousness of Christ which does the cleansing, not the divine nature.

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"Channels of humanity" is simply referring to the human being, who is defiled by sin.

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Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self- exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.(DA 21, 22)

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When I change jobs I do not get defiled by my new boss.

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Tom, my thinking on this has changed since the beginning of this thread. I no longer think our prayers and praise are purified as they pass through the divine nature. I now think that Jesus first makes us pure, and then as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as we partake of the divine nature, we are empowered to use our faculties of mind and body to cultivate sinless traits of character, and to utter prayers that are pleasing and acceptable to God.

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It looks as though we will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not Jesus only assumed sinful human nature or if He actually possessed sinful human nature. I do not believe Sister White intended for us to interpret "took upon" or "assumed" to mean Jesus did not truly possess sinful human nature, defiled by 4,000 years of sinning.

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"Now you, child (John), will be called a prophet of the Most High God. You will go before the Lord to prepare his way. You will make his people know that they will be saved by having their sins forgiven (Baptized). With the loving mercy of our God, a new day from heaven will dawn upon us. It will shine on those who live in darkness, in the shadow of death. It will guide us into the path of peace." And so the child grew up and became strong in spirit. John lived in the desert until the time when he came out to preach to Israel.
Luke 1:76 - 80 NCV

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While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on the way to Ephesus. There he found some followers and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They said, "We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit." So he asked, "What kind of baptism did you have?" They said, "It was the baptism that John taught." Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of changed hearts and lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They began speaking different llanguages and prophesying. There were about twelve people in this group
Acts 19:1 - 7 NCV

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So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:19 – 20 NCV

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Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who does not believe will be punished.
Mark 16:16 NCV

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All Scripture is given by God and is useful for teaching, for showing people what is wrong in their lives, for correcting faults, and for teaching how to live right.
2 Timothy 3:16 NCV

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Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian? Do you covenant to spend time regularly in prayer and Bible study?
Seventh-day Adventist Church Manuel (2000 Edition), p.32 [SDA Baptismal Vow #5]

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Originally posted by Darius:
Dave, God gets credit for creating the universe. What higher honor can He receive?

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
To the baptism question. John's baptism was to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. Paul's baptism was to proclaim faith in the Messiah who came. That's one difference.

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Is there an echo in here?

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Paul? Well:

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While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on the way to Ephesus. There he found some followers and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They said, "We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit." So he asked, "What kind of baptism did you have?" They said, "It was the baptism that John taught." Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of changed hearts and lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying. There were about twelve people in this group
Acts 19:1 - 7 NCV

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It would seem that Paul's baptism was not Paul's, but the Holy Spirit's, and the difference was that John baptized in preparation of Jesus while the apostles baptized in Jesus.

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It is most important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. People will laugh at you. They will live doing the evil things they want to do. They will say, "Jesus promised to come again. Where is he? Our fathers have died, but the world continues the way it has been since it was made." But they do not want to remember what happened long ago. By the word of God heaven was made, and the earth was made from water and with water. Then the world was flooded and destroyed with water. And that same word of God is keeping heaven and earth that we now have in order to be destroyed by fire. They are being kept for the Judgment Day and the destruction of all who are against God.
2 Peter 3:3 - 7 NCV

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But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: To the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day.

The Lord is not slow in doing what he promised -- the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to be lost, but he wants all people to change their hearts and lives. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The skies will disappear with a loud noise. Everything in them will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.

2 Peter 3:8 - 10 NCV

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Well, to be fair, he did not say that that God gets any credit for the Bible either. The response was not committed to either view.

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An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world.(1 SM 234)

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In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 21, 22)

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It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

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Earth and sky will be destroyed, but the words I have said will never be destroyed. "No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows."
Mark 13:31 - 32 NCV

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Here is the problem. God did not make the Bible confusing. He did not write it. He is a much better writer and editor than we see in the Bible. Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands.

John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptise in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.

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Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking.

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Why do you think I'm not "cooled down"? Why do think I'm the one who's not understanding this? Why do you assume I'm not understanding the context?

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
It's interesting that you suggest I pay attention to the context, and then mistate it. Here's what actually happened. Darius wrote this:

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Here is the problem. God did not make the Bible confusing. He did not write it. He is a much better writer and editor than we see in the Bible. Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands.

John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptise in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.

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To which you responded, for some unknown reason:

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Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking.

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Darius didn't say anything about credit. You lept to this conclusion, not based on anything Darius wrote, as far as I can tell. When he made the comment about not elevating the Bible, it was in the context of God's not having written it, not in the context of not getting credit for it.

Why is God's getting credit for it something you comment on? Darius wasn't talking about that!

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I'm not sure if I'm repeating a lot of what you're saying or not. It doesn't seem so to me, but I hope you're right, as that would mean we are seeing things similarly, which would be cool.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning in saying the time's not ready. That not something I would say, but you may have a different meaning in mind. Usually when people say that Christ hasn't come because the time isn't right, they have in mind that God is sending Christ according to some preordained time table which hasn't arrived yet, so I assumed that's what you had in mind.

At any rate, I wrote a detailed response as to why I think Christ hasn't come, so you can see from that where I'm coming from, and see if you agree with the perspective I presented.

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
To the baptism question. John's baptism was to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. Paul's baptism was to proclaim faith in the Messiah who came. That's one difference.

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Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Paul? Well:

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While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on the way to Ephesus. There he found some followers and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They said, "We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit." So he asked, "What kind of baptism did you have?" They said, "It was the baptism that John taught." Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of changed hearts and lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying. There were about twelve people in this group
Acts 19:1 - 7 NCV

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It would seem that Paul's baptism was not Paul's, but the Holy Spirit's, and the difference was that John baptized in preparation of Jesus while the apostles baptized in Jesus.

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Originally posted by Darius:
This means you should be concerned with what we can do to hasten the Second Coming. Instead you said, It's not time yet. Something is off here.

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So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:19 – 20 NCV

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Jesus has not come because the time is not right. I have made no comment on what makes the time right!

I think the cheese I just threw out in the back of my refrigerator is off, could that be it?

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I'm not sure if I'm repeating a lot of what you're saying or not. It doesn't seem so to me, but I hope you're right, as that would mean we are seeing things similarly, which would be cool.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning in saying the time's not ready. That not something I would say, but you may have a different meaning in mind. Usually when people say that Christ hasn't come because the time isn't right, they have in mind that God is sending Christ according to some preordained time table which hasn't arrived yet, so I assumed that's what you had in mind.

At any rate, I wrote a detailed response as to why I think Christ hasn't come, so you can see from that where I'm coming from, and see if you agree with the perspective I presented.

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Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet's own interpretation. No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God.
2 Peter 1:20 - 21 NCV

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John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptize in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.

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words are cheap

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Everlasting peace comes when all know the truth about God, and Christ will come when the truth regarding God's character fills the earth with glory.

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I do not agree with this statement entirely. From an Adventist understanding of prophecy, peace does not come until the New Jerusalem. This is because Satin is still plotting - he has 1,000 years to think things over.

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I am not sure where you are going with that last statement. I read, in 2 Peter, that the last days will be filled with scoffers. In 1 Timothy 4, we are told that people will depart from the faith.

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What is the difference between John the Baptist's baptism's, and the baptism's of the disciples of Jesus Christ, including the Apostle Paul?
I understand them to be 1 and the same, but its not, and I am having difficulty in figuring that out.

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It also presupposes that one is not willingly avoiding light which would illuminate the ignorance.

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A sin of ignorance is a sin one commits without knowing one is doing something wrong.

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The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. (DA 200)

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A sin of ignorance

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are you suggesting we need to get baptized twice - once according to John and once according to Jesus?

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I do not know if three times will do.

What is important is to see and understand the meaning and why. The mission and purpose of John was clearly stated both in Prophecy and by John.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

When they asked him what they should do; he told them nothing new but what they did not already know. He told them to stop doing what they knew was wrong and to do what they know is right. That is how the way is prepared and path made straight.

So it is that when one is true to conscience that the Lord can present new truth which can be received unto life. But if one shall not be true to that which they already know what use is there to give more knowledge. It only increases damnation.

If the baptism that one had was of the meaning of John the Baptists baptism (regardless of the phraseology of baptism) then yes, one needs to be baptized into Christ if one is ready and willing to die to self and receive His life. If not, don’t bother, it won’t work.

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Tom, you're answer to my question insinuates that the new birth is a common experience in this age of the world. Rebirth is a radical transformation, not a gradual modification of bad habits.

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How do you figure?

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If a person is properly prepared for baptism into the SDA church, according to the commandment of Jesus and the inspired counsel of Sister White, what would constitute a sin of ignorance? What would not be pointed out before baptism?

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No preparation for baptism could cover every possible sin which could come up. Any sin which a person would become aware of after being baptized would be an example.

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A sin of ignorance

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Your unwillingness to provide a concrete example is making it difficult to understand your position.

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I gave you a concrete answer. I don't understand your response. I said, if you want an explicit example, here's one. Didn't you read that?

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No preparation for baptism could cover every possible sin which could come up. Any sin which a person would become aware of after being baptized would be an example.

If you want a specific example, here's one:

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He who blessed the nobleman at Capernaum is just as desirous of blessing us. But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love. {DA 200.3}

The nobleman wanted to see the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn. Not because we see or feel that God hears us are we to believe. We are to trust in His promises. When we come to Him in faith, every petition enters the heart of God. When we have asked for His blessing, we should believe that we receive it, and thank Him that we have received it. Then we are to go about our duties, assured that the blessing will be realized when we need it most. When we have learned to do this, we shall know that our prayers are answered. God will do for us "exceeding abundantly," "according to the riches of His glory," and "the working of His mighty power." Eph. 3:20, 16; 1:19. {DA 200.4}

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The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him.

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Also, your response to the list of sins I posted above suggests that you believe no born again believing SDA can ignorantly commit them. Did I read you right? If so, then would it be safe to say that they are not part of the "any sin" you mentioned above?

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Deja vue got a response

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Please explain what you mean by “it is a sin to insinuate sins of ignorance”. Thank you.

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Are you suggesting that if someone has faith in Jesus that they cannot sin ignorantly? Does this mean they are sinless? How does this apply to born again believers who have not yet learned about the seventh-day Sabbath?

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But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love.

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The "we" here includes her, the author, who was a properly prepared candidate for baptism, don't you agree?

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John, I think I'm missing your point,

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because it makes me think you are saying that so long as we have faith we are sinless irrespective of what we think and believe.

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For example, in the case of born again believers who ignorantly observe the wrong Sabbath day. Does their faith make the truth of none effect?

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John, let me rephrase what you’re saying, and then let me know if I got it right or wrong. You are saying that if we insinuate or imply it is possible we are committing sins of ignorance we are, thereby, guilty of unbelief.

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We shouldn’t go around wondering if we are committing sins of ignorance.

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Tom wrote:

In the quote she says we often seek Jesus for temporal reasons. There's no sin in that.

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John wrote:

1. Can a child of God know whether their heart is right with God?
2. What does it mean to have a right heart with God?
3. What are the means of ascertaining that position?

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John wrote:

There is no such a thing as a sin of ignorance, therefore it is falsehood.

Therefore the answer to your question is simple, everyone is ignorant of something.

It is because I know that I am ignorant of many things, that I do not wonder about them, much less try to solve them.

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But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him. Confessing our helplessness and bitter need, we are to trust ourselves wholly to His love. {DA 200.3}

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But I cannot believe that a truly born again believer, who is connected to Jesus, can be guilty of distrusting Jesus until He proves Himself.

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John, your ideas on sins of ignorance are confusing to me.

John wrote:

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There is no such a thing as a sin of ignorance, therefore it is falsehood.

Therefore the answer to your question is simple, everyone is ignorant of something.

It is because I know that I am ignorant of many things, that I do not wonder about them, much less try to solve them.

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According to this formula, I am led to believe that ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is not a sin that requires the blood of Jesus to atone for.

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MM responded:
1. Yes.
2. Living up to the light God has revealed.
3. The Word of God.

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I don’t see any need for faith or God in your answers.

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What happened to ignorance?

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Originally posted by John Boskovic:
Your answers are very interesting, but not very enlightening. I don’t see any need for faith or God in your answers.

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The nobleman wanted to see [italicized emphasis is original] the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn.

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Tom, I think it is one of many lessons we must learn before we are born again - not afterwards. The "we" refers to people who, like the nobleman, are in the process of conversion, but who have not yet experienced the miracle of rebirth. Doubt and distrust and withholding faith in Jesus until He proves Himself are not elements of a properly prepared born again believer.

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COL 408, 411
In the parable, all the ten virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. All had lamps and vessels for oil. For a time there was seen no difference between them. So with the church that lives just before Christ's second coming. All have a knowledge of the Scriptures. All have heard the message of Christ's near approach, and confidently expect His appearing… The class represented by the foolish virgins are not hypocrites. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth; but they have not yielded themselves to the Holy Spirit's working. They have not fallen upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, and permitted their old nature to be broken up.

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The nobleman wanted to see [italicized emphasis is original] the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. This lesson we also have to learn. Not because we see or feel that God hears us are we to believe. We are to trust in His promises. When we come to Him in faith, every petition enters the heart of God. When we have asked for His blessing, we should believe that we receive it, and thank Him that we have received it. Then we are to go about our duties, assured that the blessing will be realized when we need it most.

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Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent and there will be no lack of repentance. That next verse will be fulfilled: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous therefore and repent."

The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth. When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something will satisfy me. And I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it. And if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness....

Now you say you see. Therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to cloth me, why co certain I am ruined, utter ruined, and every moment that I betig to say, "Now I know so much," no, I do not know that at all.

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It's talking about asking Jesus for a temporal blessing.

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The True Witness says of a cold, lifeless, Christless church, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:15, 16). Mark the following words: "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Here is represented a people who pride themselves in their possession of spiritual knowledge and advantages. But they have not responded to the unmerited blessings that God has bestowed upon them. They have been full of rebellion, ingratitude, and forgetfulness of God; and still He has dealt with them as a loving, forgiving father deals with an ungrateful, wayward son. They have resisted His grace, abused His privileges, slighted His opportunities, and have been satisfied to sink down in contentment, in lamentable ingratitude, hollow formalism, and hypocritical insincerity. With pharisaic pride they have vaunted themselves till it has been said of them, "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (verse 17). {FW 83.1}

Has not the Lord Jesus sent message after message of rebuke, of warning, of entreaty, to these self-satisfied ones? Have not His counsels been despised and rejected? Have not His delegated messengers been treated with scorn, and their words been received as idle tales? Christ sees that which man does not see. He sees the sins which, if not repented of, will exhaust the patience of a long-suffering God. Christ cannot take up the names of those who are satisfied in their own self-sufficiency. He cannot importune in behalf of a people who feel no need of His help, who claim to know and possess everything. {FW 83.2}

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I understood that both these men were at the General Conference [held in Battle Creek, February 17 - March 6, 1893], that is, S and C. Could they not discern there the revealings of the Spirit of God? Could they not see that God was opening the windows of heaven and pouring out a blessing? Why was this? Testimonies had been given correcting and counseling the church and many had made a practical application of the message to the Laodicean Church, and were confessing their sins and repenting in contrition of soul. They were hearing the voice of Jesus, the heavenly Merchantman, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man

hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20).

These brethren who claimed to have this wonderful light had the very same work of repentance and confession to do, thus clearing the rubbish from the door of their own hearts, and opening the door of their hearts to welcome the heavenly guest. Had they placed themselves in the channel of light, they would have received the most precious blessings from heaven. They would have seen that the Lord was indeed gracious, manifesting Himself to His people, and that the Sun of Righteousness had risen upon them. This was precious merchandizing actively carried on. The counsel of Christ to the Laodicean Church was being acted upon, and all who were feeling their poverty were buying gold (faith and love), white raiment (the righteousness of Christ), and eye salve (true spiritual discernment).

Why did not these brethren fall into line, and place themselves in the channel of light? They were poverty stricken and knew it not. They were not working in Christ's lines, were not softened and subdued by His Holy Spirit, and were so blinded that they could not see the strong beams of light that were coming from the throne of God upon His people. They heard not the voice of the true Shepherd. They were listening to the voice of a stranger.

When I consider the infirmities of these misled brethren, I feel deep sorrow of heart that they did not plead with God, "Bless me, O God bless, now I see my error. Thou art communicating to Thy people the richest truths ever committed to mortals. These people are not Babylon; for Thou hast given to them righteousness and peace; and Thy joy, that their joy may be full." Oh why did they not open the door of their heart to Jesus? Why not have removed right there all that obstructs the bright beams of the
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Sun of Righteousness that they might shine to the world? While God's blessing was penetrating everywhere, while His presence was consecrating and sanctifying souls unto Himself, why did they not place their souls in the channel of light? It was because Satan had cast his hellish shadow athwart their pathway to obstruct every ray of light. (MR 1)

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Let us consider our condition before God; let us heed the counsel of the True Witness. Let none of us be filled with prejudice, as were the Jews, that light may not come into our hearts. Let it not be necessary for Christ to say of us as He did of them, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).

In every meeting since the General Conference, souls have eagerly accepted the precious message of the righteousness of Christ. We thank God that there are souls who realize that they are in need of something which they do not possess--gold of faith and love, white raiment of Christ's righteousness, eyesalve of spiritual discernment. If you possess these precious gifts, the temple of the human soul will not be like a desecrated shrine. Brethren and sisters, I call upon you in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to work where God works. Now is the day of gracious opportunity and privilege. (FW 84)

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John, you asked what happened to ignorance? I agree with Tom. It is alive and kicking. I also agree with you that everyone is ignorant of something. But I disagree with you that doing unlawful labor during the Sabbath hours is not a sin. It is a sin whether the person knows it or not, whether they are conscious of it or not.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
The True Witness says of a cold, lifeless, Christless church, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:15, 16). Mark the following words: "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Here is represented a people who pride themselves in their possession of spiritual knowledge and advantages. But they have not responded to the unmerited blessings that God has bestowed upon them. They have been full of rebellion, ingratitude, and forgetfulness of God; and still He has dealt with them as a loving, forgiving father deals with an ungrateful, wayward son. They have resisted His grace, abused His privileges, slighted His opportunities, and have been satisfied to sink down in contentment, in lamentable ingratitude, hollow formalism, and hypocritical insincerity. With pharisaic pride they have vaunted themselves till it has been said of them, "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (verse 17). {FW 83.1}

Has not the Lord Jesus sent message after message of rebuke, of warning, of entreaty, to these self-satisfied ones? Have not His counsels been despised and rejected? Have not His delegated messengers been treated with scorn, and their words been received as idle tales? Christ sees that which man does not see. He sees the sins which, if not repented of, will exhaust the patience of a long-suffering God. Christ cannot take up the names of those who are satisfied in their own self-sufficiency. He cannot importune in behalf of a people who feel no need of His help, who claim to know and possess everything. {FW 83.2}

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John, the Devil knows who is keeping the Sabbath and who is breaking it. In the cases of those who are breaking it he claims them as his own. And rightly so, were it not for the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Those born again non-SDA believers who break the Sabbath ignorantly are covered by the blood and righteousness and, as such, they belong to Jesus. The Devil has no right to them.

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John, the Devil knows who is keeping the Sabbath and who is breaking it. In the cases of those who are breaking it he claims them as his own. And rightly so, were it not for the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Those born again non-SDA believers who break the Sabbath ignorantly are covered by the blood and righteousness and, as such, they belong to Jesus. The Devil has no right to them.

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Tom, please don't take this wrong, but I purchased the sacred gifts of the True Witness several years ago, and continue in them to this day. To doubt is to disbelieve, and to disbelieve is to distrust, and to distrust to crucify Christ afresh - something, by the grace of God, I refuse to do.

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Also, the Devil owns us by default.

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We are his possession until we chose to be born again.

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We are "carnal, sold under sin." He has control of our will until we surrender it to Jesus. We are natural born slaves of sin, the servants of Satan. Sinning is our legacy, and, unless we are born again, sinning is our destiny. There is no neutral ground, no in between place where we neither serve Satan nor Jesus.

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Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.)ST 1/20/90)

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He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.

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The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. (DA 176)

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The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

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Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent and there will be no lack of repentance. That next verse will be fulfilled: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous therefore and repent."

The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth. When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something will satisfy me. And I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it. And if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness....

Now you say you see. Therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to cloth me, why so certain I am ruined, utter ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, "Now I know so much," no, I do not know that at all.

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All this deliverance is "according to the will of our God and Father." The will of God is our sanctification. 1Thess.4:3. He willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4. And He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." Eph.1:11.

"What! do you mean to teach universal salvation?" We mean to teach just what the Word of God teaches,--that "the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men." Titus 2:11, R.V. God has wrought out salvation for every man, and has given it to him; but the majority spurn it, and throw it away. The Judgment will reveal the fact that full and complete salvation was given to every man, and that the lost have deliberately thrown away their birthright possession. Thus every mouth will be stopped. (The Glad Tidings)

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Sister White never implied that our temporal earthly existence equates to eternal reward in heaven.

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Although, in the back of my mind, I suspect you disagree with this post.

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Tom, be assured that I wasn't trying to annoy you. Jesus is my witness. It makes me sad you doubt me. I thought we were better friends than that.

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We agree that we are born in need of rebirth. But we may disagree as to why. I believe it is because "all have sinned", that is, we started sinning from the moment of consciousness in the womb. I do not believe we are guilty and condemned in Adam.

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How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

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Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

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To be honest, Tom, I find Jones tideous to read. I studied J&W's messages quite thoroughly several years ago and eventually came to the conclusion that Steps to Christ summarizes everything they ever wrote about righteousness by faith. There's nothing they said that she didn't say better. I realize she highly recommends them, but fortunately for me she didn't make it required reading.

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The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord's side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. {6T 95.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {6T 96.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. For Christ's sake, whose witnesses we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before Him. Thus we are taught that He has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve Him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolic. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolic. In all things we are to be representatives of Him. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives no sanction to the making of changes in apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array or expensive ornaments. {6T 96.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. We need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. All who are in earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired by God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. {6T 96.3}

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Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev. 3:20.

When the heart is emptied of self-importance, the door will be opened to Christ, because you will recognize His knock. But unless you clear away the rubbish that keeps the Lord Jesus out, He cannot possibly enter; for He forces no entrance. {TDG 74.1}

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Only when the Church is composed of pure, unselfish members, can it fulfill God's purpose. Too much hasty work is done in adding names to the church roll. Serious defects are seen in the characters of some who join the church. Those who admit them say, We will first get them into the church, and then reform them. But this is a mistake. The very first work to be done is the work of reform. Pray with them, talk with them, but do not allow them to unite with God's people in church relationship until they give decided evidence that the Spirit of God is working on their hearts. {RH, May 21, 1901 par. 7}

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