Seven Trumpets reconsidered

Posted By: Karen Y

Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/12/14 05:03 AM

I would like to see some discussion on the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation. I believe that the 7 trumpets are the warnings of the coming judgment on the earth. The four angels in Chap 7 were holding the winds of the four corners of the earth. At the end of the probationary time, God commands the four angels to loose the wind(Rev 9:14), they immediately obey God's order to let go the wind. Since the voice came out from the four horns of the golden altar, it portrays that God's mercy reached the limit toward the unrepentant humanity when the four angels let loose the wind. Pr Kenneth Cox also recently interpreted that 'an hour, a day, a month, and a year(Rev 9:15) is not 391 years of a prophetic time but it is a point of time when the probationary time ends. Please watch in the YouTube. However, I believe that the five months(150 days) indicate literal prophetic time period because no other seals and trumpets have a time designated like this fifth trumpet. Perhaps it might indicate that SDA church preaching the Present Truth that gives the torment as to want to die but death shall flee from them. Like Pr Cox said that the fifth trumpet is saying about demoniac activities. Nothing like torment of a spiritual torture. The SDA preached 150 years(150 days = 150 years) of the Present Truth which the demoniac forces hate such of the work of the LORD. Nevertheless, they are sure to deceive those who are unprepared to face their swift attack-they have the wings as to the running to battle. They have crowns which indicate the demoniac victory. They have the faces of men indicate intelligence involved. They have the hair like women indicate their seductive power. Their breastplates of iron indicate their power to searing the conscience. The prince of the air is the Satan who is the fallen star and the king over the bottomless pit- called Abaddon or Apollyon. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke. The smoke indicates prayers(Rev 5:8). Because the prayers went up to the throne of God which Jesus ministers with His 'sweet incense', the judgment must come down to the earth when the probation ends. God's way is in the sanctuary. If His way is defiled by snatching the prayers of people(DARKENED BY REASON OF THE SMOKE OF THE PIT), the judgment must come down-'the angel took the censer…cast it into the earth(Rev 8:5). let us continue study.

Blessings,

Karen
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/14/14 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I would like to see some discussion on the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation. I believe that the 7 trumpets are the warnings of the coming judgment on the earth. The four angels in Chap 7 were holding the winds of the four corners of the earth. At the end of the probationary time, God commands the four angels to loose the wind(Rev 9:14), they immediately obey God's order to let go the wind. Since the voice came out from the four horns of the golden altar, it portrays that God's mercy reached the limit toward the unrepentant humanity when the four angels let loose the wind. Pr Kenneth Cox also recently interpreted that 'an hour, a day, a month, and a year(Rev 9:15) is not 391 years of a prophetic time but it is a point of time when the probationary time ends. Please watch in the YouTube. However, I believe that the five months(150 days) indicate literal prophetic time period because no other seals and trumpets have a time designated like this fifth trumpet. Perhaps it might indicate that SDA church preaching the Present Truth that gives the torment as to want to die but death shall flee from them. Like Pr Cox said that the fifth trumpet is saying about demoniac activities. Nothing like torment of a spiritual torture. The SDA preached 150 years(150 days = 150 years) of the Present Truth which the demoniac forces hate such of the work of the LORD. Nevertheless, they are sure to deceive those who are unprepared to face their swift attack-they have the wings as to the running to battle. They have crowns which indicate the demoniac victory. They have the faces of men indicate intelligence involved. They have the hair like women indicate their seductive power. Their breastplates of iron indicate their power to searing the conscience. The prince of the air is the Satan who is the fallen star and the king over the bottomless pit- called Abaddon or Apollyon. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke. The smoke indicates prayers(Rev 5:8). Because the prayers went up to the throne of God which Jesus ministers with His 'sweet incense', the judgment must come down to the earth when the probation ends. God's way is in the sanctuary. If His way is defiled by snatching the prayers of people(DARKENED BY REASON OF THE SMOKE OF THE PIT), the judgment must come down-'the angel took the censer…cast it into the earth(Rev 8:5). let us continue study.

Blessings,

Karen


It is not necessary to fully understand the symbolism of the seven trumpets. Love is all than matters: for God and man.

///
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/14/14 10:59 PM

Women's hair is seductive? What about long hair on a guy?
Posted By: Wendell Slattery

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/15/14 09:08 AM

Karen Y,

I don't think I agree with Cox. I respect him, but I realize that none of us has a perfect understanding of the Bible, and in this instance, I believe he is mistaken.

Here are several things that you may want to consider.

I have noticed in several places in the book of Revelation, a vision starts out with a scene that forms sort of a background explanation of what is to follow. For example, Revelation 11:1-2 forms the background which tells you that what is to follow is to take place near the very end of the 1260 days. It does that by taking you backwards in time from the investigative Judgment time (measure the worshipers in the temple - judgment of them - see Daniel 5) to the time of the 1260 days (the time when the holy city is to be trampled under foot by the gentiles, which you can show is the 1260 days by using the statements of Jesus). The same is done in Revelation 14 in the description of the 144,000. They are presented first in order for you to know who the people are that will deliver the messages of Revelation 14. So, likewise, the beginning of Revelation 8 is an introductory scene of the things that are to follow. This is not an introduction of things that follow in the text and yet have already happened, for that would be putting the cart before the horse.

There is a second piece of evidence in Revelation 8 which shows that this is NOT the end of the Investigative Judgment that is being presented, but the beginning of a series of plagues. The angel throws down the censer to the ground. Now, we all have been told that Jesus will do that when probation ends. But as I understand it, when he does this, he has taken the censer into the most holy place as that is where he works during this time. In contrast with this, the angel is standing in front of the altar of incense in the holy place, not the most holy place. Thus, when he throws it down to the ground, this represents that this event is done during the time before 1844. If the angel had been said to take the censer into the most holy place and then throw it down, then we should understand that this would represent an event after 1844. But because he did not take it into the most holy place, we cannot assume that he did so. We know he is in front of the altar and we cannot move him without specific instruction to do so. Thus, when he throws down the censer, it is done before the alter of incense in the holy place.

What this tells you is that the events which follow with the trumpets all take place before probation closes.

The description of the powers that do the first woe fits the Saracens, the followers of Mohammed and those who lived after his death until the establishment of the caliphate in its fullest main extent. The Year, month, day, hour point to a specific point in time when the 6th trumpet would start. What follows fits a reasonably good description of canon fire in a battle. I believe this almost certainly corresponds to the conquest of Constantinople, which was a major event in the history of Eastern Christianity.

The 7th trumpet is often claimed to begin at the close of probation and continue onward. This is a mistake. Compare verse 15 with verse 18 and you will discover that the blowing of the trumpet and the close of probation come some time apart from one another, and in fact, years apart. They are not events that occur at the close of probation. Rather, it is describing events that occur before the close of probation and that, in fact, cause the close of probation. In that way the plagues that are the trumpets are not continuing into the time of the 7 last plagues. Consider that if the last trumpet plague continues into the time of the 7 last plagues, then there are actually 8 last plagues. We know that is not true, so the trumpets MUST complete before the close of probation so that they do not overlap.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/15/14 03:52 PM

Dear Wendell,

I agree with you about the seven trumpets that must occur before the probation ends. According to Dr LaRondell's exposition in his book 'The end time prophecy of the bible' explains it very well. Pr Cox seem to interpret the seven trumpets as literal events to take place. My understanding of the Seven Trumpets is as the warning of the coming Seven Plagues.
Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
The most catastrophic plagues which this earth is going to experience during the time of the Seven Plagues. God must warn the world what is coming by the voice of the 'Trumpets' which the remnants of God are commissioned to do so.
Regrettably, God's people did not study the blueprint of God carefully until this time, the Seven Trumpets has been misinterpreted which it should have been blown ever since 1844. This is my point of view.

The Seven Plagues have obvious connection with the Seven Trumpets.

THE SEVEN PLAGUES THE SEVEN TRUMPETS

Rev 16:2 ‘foul and loathsome sore’
Upon men(pestilence) on earth Rev 8:7 ‘hail and fire…mingled with
blood’ upon earth

----------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:3 sea ‘became blood as of
a dead man’ (pollution of sea) Rev 8:8 ‘sea became blood…living
creatures in the sea died’ (diseased
conditions of the sea creatures)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:4-7 ‘the rivers and springs of
water, … became blood’(pollution of
the drinking water) Rev 8:10 ‘rivers and springs of water…
(became) Wormwood…many men died
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 16:8-9 ‘sun…to scorch men with
fire… blasphemed the name of God’
(global warming issues) Rev 8:12 ‘sun…moon, stars’ are
darkened(heavenly bodies showing signs
of the time)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:10-11 ‘seat of the beast…
darkened’ (the Papacy) Rev 9:1-12 star fell from heaven
(originated from Satan to the Papacy);
sun, air darkened
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:12-16 three unclean spirits by
the great river Euphrates
(these 3 identities will receive
the three plagues) Rev 9:12-21 three plagues by the great
river Euphrates (the warning to the 3
identities)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 16:17-21 ‘It is done’ Rev 11:15 ‘this world have become the
kingdoms of our LORD’

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate your sincerely participation on this topic of discussion.
I pray that the Holy Spirit teach me to the truth.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/18/14 06:10 PM

Quote:
In contrast with this, the angel is standing in front of the altar of incense in the holy place, not the most holy place.
Does it matter that it is a golden censer?

Quote:
But as I understand it, when he does this, he has taken the censer into the most holy place as that is where he works during this time.
And what about casting it into the earth and the thunderings, lightnings, and earthquake?


Karen, do you find it unusual of the parallels between the trumpets and plagues you listed if they are not the same events?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/18/14 08:16 PM

Revelation 8:2-5 gives the entire picture of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary from the beginning of His work in the holy place to the end when the censor is thrown down and probation is closed.

Revelation 8:6 and onward gives the entire picture of judgments upon the earth during this same entire time.


DO THE TRUMPETS SOUND BEFORE OR AFTER THE GOLDEN CENSOR IS CAST DOWN?



Revelation 8:2 begins the heavenly scene. We see the High Priest with the Golden censor standing before the altar of incense, (which is in the Holy Place) making intercession for the people.


Revelation has already depicted Christ as "tending the lamps" filling His churches with the oil of the Holy Spirit.
Here we see Him offering incense before the throne offering mercy and merits with the prayers of His people.

These were two functions of the High Priest in the Holy Place--
Ex. 30:7 And Aaron (type of our High Priest) shall burn thereon (on the altar of incense) sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it.
30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations."
Throughout the ages of the Christian Church, Christ was officiating as the HIGH PRIEST for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

But then in Rev. 8:5, we see a change--

The angel takes fire from the altar and fills the censor.
This signifies He is getting ready to into the Most Holy Place.

Lev. 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring [it] within the veil:

He is ready to go into the Most Holy Place — the day of Atonement is about to begin.
In the earthly day of atonement service the priest was to "take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and sweet incense and bring it within the veil", as we saw in the text above.

On the day of Atonement the Priest took this censor filled with burning coals, as well as incense, with him into the Most Holy Place. When he came out of the Most Holy Place, the censor was put down and sin and unrepentant sinners were "cast out" of the camp. (Lev. 23:29)

When the priest comes out and throws down the censor, it will be too late to change, probation will be closed.

Now lets look closely at verse five.

When the Priest throws down the censor there will be noise and an earthquake and thunderings.
BUT
it is not until the very last trumpet, the seventh trumpet is sounded that the noise, thunderings, lightnings actually are heard. Rev. 11:19

Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, filled with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth; and there were VOICES, AMD THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AMD AM EARTHQUAKE.


When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.


Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down", namely the noise, thunder, voices and lightning, happen AFTER the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and before it has finished sounded. When it finishes sounding the kingdoms of earth will be the kingdoms of Christ.
Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down for they are the WARNINGS throughout history that the censor WILL be thrown down, and probation will not last forever.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/18/14 08:24 PM

The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
The seven trumpets are still mixed with mercy (Christ is still holding the censor of mercy)
The plagues after probation is closed, fall without mercy.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/18/14 08:55 PM

The prophet John, puts the Great Disappointment of 1844 between the sixth and seventh trumpet.

Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.



between the sixth and seventh trumpet --
This messenger (which is none other than Jesus Himself)
emphasises the "creator God" (same as the 1st angel's message.
Declares that time reckoning is finished.
and speaks of the Great Disappoint after which God's people must go out and preach to the world again.


The seven thunders begin to sound at this time. 1842->
The seven thunders we are told is the work of the three angel's messages of Rev. 14
(See EGW comments in 7BC 971)


Trumpets 1 - 6 ...........................Trumpet 7 -----------------------------------l
31 A.D. to 1841........................... 1842 to the end
..........................................seven thunders -->close of probation
..............................................................seven plagues-->Christ reigns
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/19/14 03:02 PM

My understanding of the correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues is not identifying them as the same events per se. But the Seven Trumpets are the warnings to the events of the Seven Plagues. So I believe that the Seven Trumpets of warning should go out to the world as loud as the Joshua's day(Joshua Chap. 6) when the Jericho fell with the seven rounds of their compass and blew the trumpets. I also believe that the probation is still granted during the
time of the Seven Trumpets that is being sounded. The full assurance of Jesus Christ's ministry in the most holy place is revealed in the Revelation of Chap 8:2-5. In the Book of Hebrews Chap. 9:3-4 indicate that the golden censer is one of the article of the most holy place.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/19/14 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
When do see this happening?
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded....the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; AND THERE WERE VOICES, LIGHTNINGS, and THUNDERINGS and an EARTHQUAKE, and great HAIL.


Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down", namely the noise, thunder, voices and lightning, happen AFTER the seventh trumpet begins to sound, and before it has finished sounded. When it finishes sounding the kingdoms of earth will be the kingdoms of Christ.
Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down for they are the WARNINGS throughout history that the censor WILL be thrown down, and probation will not last forever.
Is there anything in it which says that after the censer is cast down that all the trumpets do not sound including the 7th at the end? I'm not following, "Therefore the trumpets sound before the censor is thrown down" because you just said, "Here we see that the events described as happening after the "throwing down"". Yes, it's after, but how much after and how many other things happen in between?


Originally Posted By: dedication
The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
If you were given the content of the trumpets and plagues without knowing which were which, would you be able to know the difference?
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/19/14 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
The prophet John, puts the Great Disappointment of 1844 between the sixth and seventh trumpet.
Chapter 10 is another scene inserted in the middle, like in many other places, describing the 144,000.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/20/14 03:46 AM

Christ in the Holy Place.....................Christ fills censor .........................Christ finishes work
................................................with burning coals.........................in Most Holy Place.....................Christ reigns
................................................and enters Most Holy.........................throws down censor
....................................................................................................probation closes

Trumpets 1 - 6 .............................. Trumpet 7 ------------------------------------------------>
31 A.D. to 1841............................... covers time from 1842 to Christ's reign
historical..........................................seven thunders speak, warning the world
judgments on ..........................................................................................seven plagues................Christ reigns
professing
Christians
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/20/14 04:13 AM

Originally Posted By: kland



Originally Posted By: dedication
The seven trumpets and seven plagues are not the same events. Though the one foreshadows the other.
If you were given the content of the trumpets and plagues without knowing which were which, would you be able to know the difference?


The trumpets are mixed with mercy,
-- a third part of the rivers, a third part of the sea, a third part of the trees.....
Throughout Christian history are revealed judgments on the professing but not genuine Christians.

But the plagues are not mixed with mercy,
-- no more fractions, the sea becomes blood and EVERY living thing therein dies...

Also the plagues are declared as "the last" "for in them is filled up the wrath of God"

They come after the "image of the beast" is in place,and people have accepted the "mark of the beast" . (See 16:2)


The seven thunders from Rev. 10 (which are the proclamation of the three angel's messages (see 7BC 971.6} send out the last warning message to the world at the end of the sixth trumpet and throughout the seventh trumpet.

The plagues are the fulfilment of the warning in the third angel's message and the angel of Rev. 18.
Posted By: Wendell Slattery

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/22/14 12:15 PM

Any interpretation which places the trumpets at the end is incorrect. The reason is very simple. In Revelation 10:6 it very clearly tells us that there is no more time. Now, it is not possible that this refers to the end of the world because there is the statement in Revelation 10!1 that he must prophecy again, which means that there is yet more preaching of the gospel and the book of Revelation was to continue to be preached through the world. Thus, the statement that there is no more time is referring to prophetic time rather than literal time.

We know that Revelation 10 is about the Millerite experience leading up to the beginning of the Investigative Judgment. The only logical explanation for the angel's statement about there being no more time is that he is talking about prophetic time, that there is no more prophetic time. However, Revelation 9:10 tells us that the grasshoppers were allowed to torture men for a period of 5 months. This is a specific time period that is spoken of, so it CANNOT refer to a time after 1844 because there are only prophesied events, not time periods, after 1844. It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

Thus, any interpretation which places the trumpets after 1844 is simply wrong. You need to go back to the historical method of interpretation to get it right.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/22/14 05:56 PM

I agree, Wendell,
The historical sequence of the seven churches, seals and trumpets are part of the "platform" upon which our church is established.
This is especially true of the seven trumpets.
After the sixth trumpet, the time lines had all ended.

After the sixth trumpet the account is given of the downfall of the oppressive papal/state conditions, with first an attempt to destroy the Bible but in actuality liberating the Bible to speak as never before. (Chapter 11)
After the sixth trumpet the Great disappoint is outlined in chapter 10 and the people are told to go and prophecy again.

Thus between the sixth and seventh trumpet the world is prepared for the three angels' messages.

Its after the sixth trumpet that the SEVEN THUNDERS (which we are told contain the three angels messages) began to thunder. (7BC 971)

The seventh trumpet we are told by EGW in Great Controversy page 433 begins in 1844 and it leads us to the full reign of Christ and end of the present world.
Posted By: Wendell Slattery

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 01:54 AM

dedication,

While I think the 6th trumpet does not contain a time prophecy, but rather points to a specific event that occurs in the 1400s, and I think that the 7th trumpet points to being blown after 1844 but before the close of probation, it is abundantly clear that there are prophetic time lines present within several of the trumpets which shows that most of them occur before 1844. Any effort to put the first 6 trumpets after 1844 will lead to erroneous results, of that you can be guaranteed. The angel of Revelation 10 was very clear on this, "no more time!" which should not be controverted. I don't know why people try to get around that because its so clear as to be unmistakable.

To me there is enough evidence to believe the historical interpretation of the trumpets. But some people are not satisfied with that. They want something new, so they put the trumpets into the future. I think that they are bound to be disappointed because the angel was not a liar - "no more time!" Will they believe the angel or not?

If the angel's words were not so clear as they are, then perhaps trying to come up with a new understanding might be warranted. But that is not the case. We know what his words mean. We should believe them.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 04:35 AM


The development of the seven trumpets is after the seventh seal has opened. I would like to understand and start from what we know first.
Pulling the first trumpet of the vision to the first seal time period, second trumpet to second seal period so on can lead to diverse erroneous theories. No wonder that there is no consistency among the people of expositors of the Book of Revelation regarding the seven trumpets.
I would ask God to reveal what is that we need to understand for the correct interpretation rather than speculating the vision of the seven trumpets on my own. We are told that Jesus Christ's intercessory ministration exists during the seven trumpets' time as the introductory sanctuary vision is given in Rev Chap 8:2-5. We know that the ash of the censor has not been casted down yet.
In the ancient time, the trumpets are blown prior to the Day of Atonement. I believe that the Book of Revelation has to be interpreted in the perspective of the sanctuary service.
The Anti-typical Day of Atonement began in 1844. Only the priests were permitted to blow the trumpets for the Day of Atonement. Likewise the remnant of God which are 'priests' must blow the warnings of the judgment of God. Yes, SDA has been preaching the three angels' messages but must blow the trumpets sound as the angel of the Chap 18:1 with great power which portrays in the story of Joshua to bring the fall of Jericho. This must be done for the fall of spiritual Babylon too.
The 'time no longer' may indicate that God’s people of the Anti-typical Day of Atonement must do this commission in no time.
The 5-month periods has no certain beginning that connected to 2300 day prophecy. It just indicates that a period of time, in this case, the demonic activities. The 'half an hour' of silence in Chap. 8:1 which is still future, suggests that the justice of God has been fully executed then the one of the development of the trumpets includes the five months. How can a longer period of time included in the 'half an hour' unless we should understand it as the warnings rather than the events of the seven trumpets.

I understand that the fifth trumpet is portraying the demonic activities to attack 'the inhabiters of the earth' which is not in a corner of the earth like the historical interpretation often says. This is the first woe that impacts humanity globally as well as the other woes. "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Rev 12:12)" also indicates that this involves the whole earth.
During the fifth trumpet, God commands 'that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green things, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads (Chap 9:4). This sealing of God depicts apocalyptic sealing. It is not about the sealing of the gospel. We must read in the context. The people who are not sealed of God will receive the mark of the beast which the first plague indicates(Chap 16:2).
I believe that the seven trumpets are the warnings for the seven plagues. Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Blessings,

Karen
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 07:13 AM

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, Wendell.

I'm agreeing with you that six of the seven trumpets all took place BEFORE 1844 --

Are you confusing what I said about the seven THUNDERS with the seven trumpets?

The seven THUNDERS are the warning message (three angels' messages) that sound from 1842 to the end.

The seven TRUMPETS have all sounded over the course of Christian history. We are now in the seventh trumpet.
The seventh trumpet according to EGW began in 1844.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 07:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

In the ancient time, the trumpets are blown prior to the Day of Atonement. I believe that the Book of Revelation has to be interpreted in the perspective of the sanctuary service.
The Anti-typical Day of Atonement began in 1844. Only the priests were permitted to blow the trumpets for the Day of Atonement.


In the Israelite calendar, the first day of each "month" was a day for trumpets to be blown.
It is interesting that the day of atonement is in the seventh month --
The Passover being in the first month.
Thus seven months have passed, each beginning with the blowing of trumpets.
These seven months forshadowed the whole Christian era.


It seems very likely that the blowing of the seven trumpets in Revelation correspond to the blowing of trumpets at the seven New Moon (or New Month) festivals in the Old Testament. Each new moon trumpet blowing was understood as a day of judgment in miniature, which warned people to prepare for the final judgment ushered in by the Feast of Trumpets. When the seventh trumpet blew, it was to announce the Day of Atonement was at hand.

This understanding fits the sequence in Revelation perfectly.

The first six trumpets sound during Christian history.
Then in the early 1840's the first of the thunders begins to roll (THUNDERS NOT TRUMPETS) the first angels message begins to sound.
This we see in Chapter 10 where the Great Disappointment is described.

The seventh trumpet reveals the ark of the covenant.

Quote:
“The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest, as he entered upon his ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of his testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary, they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that he was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading his blood in behalf of sinners. {GC88 433.1}
Posted By: Wendell Slattery

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 10:57 AM

Dedication,

I am saying that six of the seven trumpets blow before 1844, so I think we are in agreement there. The only things I am thinking are significantly different are the 6th and 7th trumpets, and these are relatively minor differences. I see the 6th trumpet as not a time period but a specific event at a point in time that was long ago set by God. That event is the battle for Constantinople in 1453, so that the 6th trumpet is done and gone long before 1844. I see the 7th trumpet as Muslim in nature just as the first two woes are Muslim, so that began later than 1844. These are the only two differences I know about.

I was not mixing in the trumpets with the 7 thunders, but that is an easy mistake for some to make.
Posted By: Wendell Slattery

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/23/14 11:09 AM

Karen Y,

The biggest problem I have is that the angel said "no more time!" in Revelation 10. He did not qualify it and say that if it had no beginning date, then that was excepted. No, he just said "no more time!" Period. Thus, this is an absolute. There is no way around it. You cannot have any specific time period, literal or symbolic, with or without a specified starting date, after 1844. I would like it to be after 1844 as it probably would make it easier to understand and explain, but I realize that I cannot make it what it is not. God set the parameters of this and I cannot change them. We have to fit the interpretation within the limits he sets.

You can do as you wish on this, but because of this constraint put in the Bible by God, I cannot put any prophecy that has any time period in it after 1844. The trumpets begin and go in sequence, so if the 5th trumpet has a time period, it too has to end by 1844 or earlier, and all previous trumpets must end before it begins. And the 6th trumpet, which many think has a time period with it, must also end by or before 1844 (I am of the personal opinion that it refers to a specific point in time, that it identifies those who do this trumpet as the Turks, so it must also occur before 1844 - I see it as the battle for Constantinople in 1453). The 7th trumpet is the only trumpet of the trumpet woes (trumpets 5-7) that for sure has no time period in it, and it must follow the other trumpets in sequence with them. Therefore, it can occur after 1844. It is specified to blow before the anger of the nations begins and its connection in Revelation 11:15 with the Investigative Judgment indicates that it is an event which leads directly to the end events and the end of the Investigative Judgment.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/24/14 07:30 PM

Quote:
It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

Quote:
After the sixth trumpet, the time lines had all ended.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/25/14 04:21 AM

Quote:
You can do as you wish on this, but because of this constraint put in the Bible by God, I cannot put any prophecy that has any time period in it after 1844. The trumpets begin and go in sequence, so if the 5th trumpet has a time period, it too has to end by 1844 or earlier, and all previous trumpets must end before it begins.

Good point.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/25/14 04:27 AM

Quote:
Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

What the SDABC says about this passage:

Some have taken the “one hour” of ch. 17:12 as prophetic time, according to which it would represent a period of about two weeks of literal time. However, the context seems to imply otherwise. It is generally recognized that ch. 18 gives a more detailed explanation of events described in ch. 17:12–17. But the period of time designated as “one day” in ch. 18:8 is also called “one hour” in vs. 10, 17, 19, the obvious intent of Inspiration being to indicate a brief period of time without specifying its exact length. Accordingly, it seems preferable to take the expression “one hour” in ch. 17:12 in the same sense, as indicating a brief but unspecified period of “time.”

Quote:
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

But this is not prophetic time, this is literal time.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/25/14 09:48 PM

If the purpose of the seventh trumpet is to announce the Day of Atonement which I truly believe so, shouldn't it be all the same of each trumpet's function? I do not think that during the each Christian Era 'the inhabiters of the earth'-the whole world was warned about the judgment of God by the trumpet's sound. Thus, the warning of the seven trumpets has to be for the final warning to the world in the apocalyptic sealing.

According to Ezekiel 9:10, the justice of God was executed upon the impenitent only after the angel of mercy had completed his sealing work which is the prelude to the outpouring of the wrath of God in the seven last plagues of Rev 16.

In the fifth trumpet, there is a command of God that 'they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'(Chap 9:4). This verse portrays the final issue of the Sabbath as the seal of God which I think, conclusively, that the fifth trumpet has to occur after 1844.

We are told about the seven trumpets that the earth(1st trumpet), sea(2nd), rivers and fountains of water(3rd) and the heavenly bodies(4th) are effected as to many death to men-'many men died of the waters(Chap 8:11)' etc. Would these be the warnings of the 'health messages' in the first four trumpets?

I perceive that the first four trumpets are the warnings of the physical in nature as compared to the three woes of the spiritual in nature.

We are also told that men blaspheme the name of God and they repent not (Rev 16:9-4th plague). How can this happen without any warnings for the outpouring of the wrath of God? The Scripture also mentions of the spiritual rebellion in Rev 16:11 -5th plague- "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds". Rev 16:21-7th plague-"…and men blasphemed God…"

At the sounding of the fifth angel’s trumpet, we are told “the bottomless pit was opened, and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” (chap.9:2). This, doubtless, explains the darkness that fills the kingdom of the Beast when the fifth angel’s bowl of wrath is poured upon the seat of the Beast(Chap 16:10). It is judicial darkness brought about by demoniacal delusions.

Let's observe further the plagues and the seven trumpets which indicate the warnings of what's coming in the seven last plagues.

Rev 16:2 "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image".
Rev 8:7 "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up".
The hail and fire mixed with blood indicate the sick condition of men's health in the first trumpet which will consume the trees and grass in symbolic terms of men.
Notice also that the sphere of this plague is the earth as the first trumpet. I wonder if an universal health care will culminate all the people to receive the 'mark of the beast' as indicated in the first plague.

In the same way the second angel’s bowl links with the second angel’s trumpet, which affected the sea.

Rev 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea".

Rev 8:8-9 "And he second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and has life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed."

The consuming the sea creatures to eat will eventually bring death to men because the ' great mountain'-like disasters of pollution occur upon the sea.

The third angel’s trumpet affected the rivers and fountains of waters, and in Rev 16:4 we read, “The third angel poured out his bowl upon the rivers and fountains of waters: and they became blood.” Thus the very sources of life are destroyed as the third trumpet has warned. Rev 8:10:11 "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

The fourth angel’s bowl is poured out upon the sun, even as at the sounding of the fourth trumpet the third part of the sun was smitten. In Rev 16:8-9 we read, “power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God,…”

Please see the above which I already commented on the fifth plague and trumpet.

The great world-conflict is depicted in the sixth bowl of the plague which will be the direct result of the working of demons, for we are told that three unclean frog-like spirits came out of the mouths of the dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet—demons working miracles, visiting the kingdoms of world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. This will be the great and final Armageddon conflict—the place where they will meet one another in an attempt to settle the final issues.
In the sixth trumpet, the four angels loose their hold at once, immediately, when there is a command of God from the golden altar which depicts His mercy reached the limit.

The seventh angel’s bowl is poured out into the air, and we are told,
“There came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in rememberance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great”(Rev 16:17-21).
The seventh trumpet announces the same thing as the plague, "…The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;…(Rev 11:15)"

I believe that the message of the seven trumpets should sound as the warning to the whole world for the coming wrath of God in the seven plagues.

Blessings,

Karen
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/25/14 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
If the purpose of the seventh trumpet is to announce the Day of Atonement which I truly believe so, shouldn't it be all the same of each trumpet's function? I do not think that during the each Christian Era 'the inhabiters of the earth'-the whole world was warned about the judgment of God by the trumpet's sound. Thus, the warning of the seven trumpets has to be for the final warning to the world in the apocalyptic sealing.


If the seventh trumpet announces the Day of Atonement, why would all the rest also announce it?

Yes, they are warnings throughout the Christian history.
But people don't like to study history I think ?

It's by studying the history that we see how the opposition works.
It's not natural calamities that we must fear, they can only take the present life which is short anyways. It's the forces aligned against truth that we must fear, for they seek to rob us of eternal life.

By studying the trumpets in their historical setting we see the forces against truth and how God has restrained them in the past. After the seventh trumpet is finished those forces will be no more.

in other words --
Strong as those forces may seem to be, history shows they do not triumph, and they will not triumph. Keep your faith and commitment firmly in the Lord, for His kingdom of righteousness will NEVER be destroyed, and those who cling to His gift of salvation even if the whole world is against them, will live FOREVER!



Originally Posted By: Karen
In the fifth trumpet, there is a command of God that 'they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'(Chap 9:4). This verse portrays the final issue of the Sabbath as the seal of God which I think, conclusively, that the fifth trumpet has to occur after 1844.


Not necessarily.
Paul speaks of the sealing in his day already.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph. 1:13 [Christ]in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


The "seal" is the mark that these people are citizens of God's kingdom; with God's law written in their minds, and their citizenship in the New Jerusalem.

It's true that in the end it is imperative to have that seal before probation closes, for after probation closes there is no more turning.

Yet history fits well with that verse, for when the Saracen Arabs started their conquest, their commander told them --
"Destroy no palm trees nor burn any fields of corn, cut down no fruit trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat. ...You will find some religious person who lives in retirement and propose to themselves to serve God that way; let them alone, neither kill them nor destroy their monasteries; but you will find another sort of people that belong to the synagogue of Satan, who have shaven crowns; be sure you cleave their skulls, and give them no quarter till they either turn Mahometans or pay tribute;" (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of Roman Empire v-3 145,146)

In those first conquests by Muslims during the fifth trumpet apostolic Christians in the eastern Roman Empire (who tended to be in hiding due to persecution by Emperor Heraclius) were spared, while the Catholic monks and clergy were not.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/28/14 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

What the SDABC says about this passage:

Some have taken the “one hour” of ch. 17:12 as prophetic time, according to which it would represent a period of about two weeks of literal time. However, the context seems to imply otherwise. It is generally recognized that ch. 18 gives a more detailed explanation of events described in ch. 17:12–17. But the period of time designated as “one day” in ch. 18:8 is also called “one hour” in vs. 10, 17, 19, the obvious intent of Inspiration being to indicate a brief period of time without specifying its exact length. Accordingly, it seems preferable to take the expression “one hour” in ch. 17:12 in the same sense, as indicating a brief but unspecified period of “time.”

Quote:
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

But this is not prophetic time, this is literal time.


First, all time concerning prophecy is prophetic time. But it may be either literal or symbolic.

Second, the comment I was addressing was:
Quote:
It matters not whether this is literal time or symbolic time that is spoken of because there just simply is no more prophesied time periods after 1844.

So whether it is literal or symbolic, it is still time, and it is still time prophesied after 1844, therefore, negating the comment.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/28/14 10:53 PM

Quote:
First, all time concerning prophecy is prophetic time. But it may be either literal or symbolic.

Well, terms must be defined. If you wish to define them this way, it's ok. However, you must remember that, according to your definition, Ellen White's statement would also be wrong, for she says that 1844 was the end of prophetic time.

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

Quote:
So whether it is literal or symbolic, it is still time, and it is still time prophesied after 1844, therefore, negating the comment.

I agree.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/29/14 01:22 AM

The quote speaks about no definite prophetic time, such as in date setting, however, there still remains the prophecies dealing with time frames that are unknown to us as far as date setting goes, such as the second coming, the 1000 years in heaven, etc.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/29/14 04:22 AM

Quote:
The quote speaks about no definite prophetic time, such as in date setting, however, there still remains the prophecies dealing with time frames that are unknown to us as far as date setting goes, such as the second coming, the 1000 years in heaven, etc.

Yes, Daryl, good point.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/29/14 04:51 AM

Quote:
" The Lord has not tested his people upon any particular time since 1844. We have been, and still are, in the patient waiting time." 1T 409

"We are in the waiting time; let your loins be girded about and
your lights shining, that you may wait for the Lord when He returns from the wedding, that when He comes and knocks you may open unto Him immediately." {4T 123.3}


We are in the "waiting time".
Between 1844 and the end when God announces the coming of Jesus, we have no set times, we are in the "waiting time".
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/31/14 05:11 PM

So it sounds like we are now all in agreement. So regarding the 10 kings and one hour, this future prophecy of time, which is prophetic time, but whether symbolic or literal time, does exist in the future. When that time happens, no definite time has been set. Just as with the 1000 years. And unlike the 2300 day time prophecy of definite time ending in 1844.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/03/14 12:50 AM

Notice what the Scripture says, “I beheld… I heard” (Rev. 8:13). Both the eye and ear are engaged which signifies the careful attention and interest.
The angel is flying thruough mid-heaven to announce the most horrible judgments ever announced… judgments that are far beyond the imagination of men in the seven plagues. These are the three woes.
"Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew in midheaven, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow”(Rev 8:13 NRSV). The angel is translated as ‘an eagle’ in the NRSV. The eagle is depicted as the deliverance of God in Deut 32:11-12 "As an eagle stirs up its nest, Hovers over its young, Spreading out its wings, taking them up, Carrying them on its wings, So the Lord alone led him, And there was no foreign god with him”. God assures His mighty deliverance for His people as portrayed in an eagle flying in the midst of heaven in the three woes.
The “woes” are pronounced especially upon those who inhabites on the earth.
The term “inhabiters of the earth” is used, in chapter 3:10, 6:10 and 12:12, referring to the peoples upon whom the tribulation will come.
These terrible woes of God will be directed to reach every square inch of the universe and will have to do with every person who inhabits upon the earth in this last generation.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/03/14 01:58 AM

Revelation 8:1 gives us the record of the opening of the seventh seal. When that seal is broken, there is silence in Heaven. Something gigantic, ghastly, unheard of . . . something heretofore unseen . . . happens.
When the seventh seal is opened, the seven trumpets begin to sound. All the terrible judgments of the trumpets are hidden beneath the seventh seal, and the seven vials of the wrath of God are about to fall upon men.
All Heaven stood aghast - completely silent, Speechless, and spellbound - for half an hour as the seventh seal is removed!
The four and twenty elders ceased to play their harps. Heaven’s angels hushed their singing. Cherubim and Seraphim ceased to praise God. The host of Heaven stood in awe. Think of Heaven standing in complete silence for the space of half an hour! Can you imagine the judgments of misery, blood and woe poured out upon mankind, so terrible that the very sight of those judgments renders all Heaven speechless and silent?
Let me illustrate even in a small way:
Someone told me that not long ago a drunk driver ran into the automobile just ahead of him. The driver and two others were killed instantly. In a matter of moments a great crowd gathered. Lying there on the road were the battered, broken, bleeding, twisted bodies of three men . . . three dead bodies.
The crowd moved gazed upon the dead bodies in silence. You could have heard a pin drop. Those who spoke did so in a whisper. In the distance could be heard the sirens as the ambulance came to the scene of the tragedy. As the dead were covered with sheets and lifted into the ambulance, the silence was deadly. People seemed to hold their breath.
In verse 2, seven angels stood before God. These are special angels. Not all angels are said to stand before God. Gabriel stood before God (Luke 1:19). And "…ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened(Rev 7:10).
There were SEVEN of these angels representing the full power of God in judicial judgment.
The seven angels stood before God to pour out God’s wrath upon the wicked. Seven trumpets were given to the angels when the seventh seal is broken.
Trumpets are used to call soldiers to war. They are used in worship, for the convocation, to proclaim festivals such as the year of Jubilee, the Feast of the Tabernacles - and for judgments. Read Exodus 19:6, Amos 3:6, Joshua 6:13-16 and Zephaniah 1:14-16.
The seven angels received the trumpets, took their positions as directed, and prepared to sound. They sounded the warnings of the coming judgment in the seven plagues to the inhabiters of the earth. Who are the priests that is going to blow the Seven Trumpets sound if not the remnant church of God?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/03/14 04:36 AM

Silence in heaven.

One thing we need to remember is that chapter divisions were not placed by John who wrote down these visions. They were inserted hundreds of years later for convenience.

Revelation 8:1 is the concluding verse of the seven seals.
The sixth seal leads us up to the time just before Christ's second coming.

The verses below (which are part of the sixth seal) describe events that take place when God delivers His people from the death degree just before Christ's coming. (Compare with GC 636-640) Thus the sixth seal has already taken us past the close of probation and most of the plagues.


Quote:
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The question is asked "Who shall be able to stand".
The answer is given in Rev. 7 -- those who bear the seal of God.

The seventh seal does not jump back in time.
The sixth seal already has the lost running in terror from the voice of God, when the sky is rolled back as a scroll.

So what happens during the "silence" of the seventh seal?
The seventh seal has reached the time of utter destruction of Babylon. The last part of Rev. 18 as well as chapter 19.
The seventh seal is no longer a warning, but the final execution.

And that is the end of the vision of the seven seals -- marking the end of this world's history.



Rev. 8:2 begins a whole new vision. It begins with Christ ministering in the holy Place and gives another view of the history of the great controversy over the Christian era.








Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/05/14 06:41 AM

I came across this quote recently from Ellen White where she appears to view the seventh seal as including the introduction to the trumpets. It surprised me:
Quote:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, Holy and true, doest Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them [They were pronounced pure and holy]; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" [Revelation 6:9-11].

Here were scenes presented to John that were not in reality but that which would be in a period of time in the future. {20MR 197.5}

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Rev 8:1-4.

The psalmist prayed: "Lord, I cry unto Thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto Thee. Let my prayer be set before Thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips." {20MR 198.1}
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/08/14 08:06 PM

Could be true. But could also be she was just quoting the future scenes presented to John. Also, "here were scenes" - does that refer to the preceding or the following. What if she had said, "here are scenes" and then quoted Rev 8? Of course, past tense could mean everything John had seen.

Not sure how one would go about determining the questions to ask. But think there needs more than just a little bit as the preceding and following context seems to cover a broad range. Maybe something along the lines of, what is the purpose of this section of her writing?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/13/14 07:39 PM


The sixth trumpet indicates that the probation time will end suddenly
at a point of time.
“And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for
an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay
the third part of men” (Rev 9:15).

When the sixth trumpet of warning comes to fulfill there comes
the kingdom of God as the seventh trumpet announces,
“…The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever
and ever” (Rev 11:15).

It intrigues me to perceive that all the sixth of the seven of churches,
seals, trumpets, and plagues talks about the Second Coming of Christ.

The Philadelphia Church condition is the most favorable for the Second
Coming of Christ. The sixth seal portrays the impenitent seeking death
at His Coming,
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us
from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
wrath of the Lamb:” (Rev 6:16)

In the sixth plague, the three identities of dragon, beast, and false prophets
unite for the battle of Armageddon, but it only culminates for their destruction
as the sixth trumpet has warned
“…out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone”,
“…by these plagues..” (Rev 9:17,20)
they will be punished.

The three of the religious systems of the world will deceive massively of the inhabiters of the earth, for this very reason, the eagle flying through the midst of heaven announcing as the one of the woe (Rev 8:13).
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/17/14 06:25 PM

bump

Don't know why this thread came to a sudden halt, which is why I am bumping it now.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/26/14 01:10 PM

Dear Maritime friends,

I have come to understand much more on the subject of the seven trumpets in the book of Revelation since the last time I have posted.

The warning of the three Woes must be understood by God’s people because the deceptions are so great and the time of trouble is so imminent such as never was since there was a nation. Would you want to be sheltered by the living God? Then we must be attentive to His instructions. The Lord wants to deliver us from all kinds of the demoniac delusions and deceptions that are going on right now.

The three woes are emerged upon ‘the inhabiters of the earth’, not merely some of the inhabiters like some think. The warnings are given for a global impact as portrayed in Rev 12:12, “…Woe to the inhabiters of the earth…for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

In Chap. 12 of Revelation, the woman were given two wings of a great eagle so she should be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. The same serpent of old, the Devil, is attempting a final deception to the remnant of God in the woes of the Chap. 9. No wonder that a flying eagle (Rev 8:13) appears again in the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voices of the trumpet with urgency, “woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth”.

Deut. 32:11,12 “As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.”

Deut. 32:10 “He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.”

The great dragon, which was cast out into the earth, is the star that fell, with the third part of the stars of heaven (Rev Chap 12). He is the angel of the bottomless pit. His name is Abaddon, and Apollyon (Rev 9:11). This star that fell from heaven (Chap.9:1 …”I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth…”) and his evil angels are engaged to cast delusions upon the ‘inhabiters of the earth’ in the first woe. The Devil has the key of the bottomless pit. The key portrays a teaching, which the beast that came out of the bottomless pit (Rev17:8) carries the task of the false teachings.
Another beast that came out of the earth (Rev 13:11) is also deceiving the dwellers on the earth (Rev 13:14). Watch, what is coming out of the earth and the bottomless pit! The dragon gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority (Rev 13:2). The sun and the air were darkened by the reason of the smoke that came out of the bottomless pit (Rev 9:2), the beast (Rev 17:8). The system of the beast caused an enormous torment of scorpion (Rev 9:5) by the reason of the smoke. The smoke denotes ‘the prayers of saints’ (Rev 5:8). The beast snatched the prayers of people, which should only ascend up to the throne of God (Rev 8:4) in order to receive answers. No wonder, unanswered prayers caused the torments like death. Nothing is like a spiritual torment so they seek death but death shall flee from them (Rev 9:6). However, the saints who have the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev 9:4) shall not be hurt by the scorpion torments.

It seems to me that the three woes are talking about the warning about the things that are happening just before the close of the probation. We must be vigilant and understand clearly the plan of God.

Blessings,

Karen
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/27/14 04:18 AM

3 woes.
3 angels' messages.
3 unclean spirits like frogs.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/28/14 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
3 woes.
3 angels' messages.
3 unclean spirits like frogs.


The three unclean spirits will receive plagues by the three things; the fire, the smoke, and the brimstone(Rev 9:17). The sixth trumpet announced "these plagues"(Rev 9:18) will kill the third part of men. The warnings of the three woes are very spiritual. By the three angel's messages the world should hear the last final call of the Lord.
Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets".
The Seven Trumpets portay warnings of the coming Seven Plagues. Each of the plagues correlate with the each of the seven trumpets. Read the plague first, then read the trumpet.

sixth plague: upon the Euphrates/three unclean spirits
sixth trumpet: in the Euphrates/three plagues of fire, smoke and brimstone

fifth plague: upon the seat of the beast/full of darkness
fifth trumpet: fallen star has the key of the bottomless pit (where the beast comes out Rev 11:7, 17:8)/ darkened by the reason of the smoke of the pit

seventh plague:It is done
seventh trumpet:the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord

fourth plague: sun scorching hot(global warming)
fourth trumpet: sun, moon, stars darkened(signs of heavenly bodies)

third plague:the rivers and fountains of waters became blood(becomes deadly)
third trumpet:the rivers and fountains of waters became wormwood/many men dies

second plague:upon the sea/every living soul died(deadly pollutions of the sea)
second trumpet:the sea became blood

first plague:fell upon the earth/noisome and grievous sore who has the mark of the beast
first trumpet:upon the earth/hail and fire mingled with blood(deadly sickness)/trees and green grass(depict men)-shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God…without mixture(Rev 14:10)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/29/14 03:43 AM

I'm thinking the plagues/trumpets will be caused by an asteroid impacting the Pacific Ocean.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/02/14 01:22 PM

Ezekiel 5:12 "A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence,
and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee:
and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee;…."

Rev 8:7 The first trumpet indicates that many men will die of diseases. "…trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up"

Rev 8:8 The second trumpet indicates one third will die.

Rev 8:10 The thrid trumpet indicates another one third will die.

Rev 8:12 The fourth trumpet indicates there is no death but the heavenly bodies show the signs of the time (Global warming).

Rev 9:11 The fifth trumpet indicates there is a great sufferings(torments) but death.
"in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Rev 9:13-21 The sixth trumpet indicates the rest of men will be killed by the plagues except the most wicked.

Rev 11:15 The seventh trumpet says the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. It is all done!

The seven trumpets are the sounding of the warnings of the coming plagues. The fury of the LORD! I praise God that there still is the mercy of the LORD to repent at this time!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/02/14 04:54 PM

"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth". The close of probation? Then follows the trumpets?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/02/14 11:10 PM

What we need to understand is that each of the seven churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven plagues have introductory visions which inclusive to the whole thing.

Rev Chap. one introduces the seven churches in Chap 2-3.
Rev Chap. 4 - 5 of the throne room introduce the seven seals in Chap 6 to 8:1.
Rev Chap. 8:2-5 of the ministration of the Christ introduce the seven trumpets in Chap 8:6 to Chap 11.
Rev Chap. 15 of the song of Moses introduces the seven plagues in Chap 16.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 04:51 AM

The warnings of the Seven Trumpets must be blown before the close of the probation. The evidence of the introduction of the seven trumpets portrays the ministry of the intercession of Jesus Christ which endorses the understanding.
Remember that the Seventh Seal is not yet opened. The Seven Trumpets are within the seventh seal as well as the Seven Plagues.
The four angels are not released in Chap 7:1. They are still holding until the command comes out from the temple of God to release the hold. Rev 9:14 "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels…" The probation will be closed then.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 05:13 AM

Sixth Seal = Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Seventh Seal = There was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Before His presence "all faces are turned into paleness;" upon the rejecters of God's mercy falls the terror of eternal despair. "The heart melteth, and the knees smite together, . . . and the faces of them all gather blackness." Jeremiah 30:6; Nahum 2:10. The righteous cry with trembling: "Who shall be able to stand?" The angels' song is hushed, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying: "My grace is sufficient for you." The faces of the righteous are lighted up, and joy fills every heart. And the angels strike a note higher and sing again as they draw still nearer to the earth. {GC 641.1}

Does the passage above describe the sixth and the seventh seals?

6) "Who shall be able to stand?"
7) A period of awful silence.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth". The close of probation? Then follows the trumpets?

I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {EW 279.2}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 07:41 AM

When Jesus throws down the censor probation is closed, and there is thunder and lightening and an earthquake.

Revelation 8:2-5 Covers the HEAVENLY SCENE

It begins with Christ in the Holy Place before the altar of incense offering up the prayers of the saints with His merits before God. (33 A.D. -- 1844 A.D.)

He then fills the censor with coals (something the High Priest did before entering the Most Holy Place as He takes the censor with Him) signifying that He is entering the second phase of His ministry. (1844-- )

Lastly He throws down the censor -- signifying that His work in the Most Holy Place is done
and there is thunder and lightening and an earthquake.



Revelation 8:6-11:19 then COVERS THE SAME TIME PERIOD showing the EARTHLY SCENE.

The trumpets cover time over the whole Christian era.
The first six take place during the same time as Rev. 8:2-4.

The seventh trumpet occurs at the same time as Rev. 8:5.

The seventh trumpet shows the door to the Most Holy Place opened and the ark of the covenant is seen -- the seventh trumpet begins in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy, and takes us to the end.

It is at the seventh trumpet that we again come to the end when there is
Thunder, lightnings and earthquake.
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 01:34 PM

The question is ( Seven Trumpets reconsidered )

Do the seven trumpets repeat on the eve of Christ's Advent?

If they do is there a spiritual or a literal fulfillment?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 01:49 PM

"The trumpets cover time over the whole Christian era.
The first six take place during the same time as Rev. 8:2-4

The seventh trumpet occurs at the same time as Rev. 8:5."

I think not as the above qoates because;

Rev 8:2 "And I saw the seven angels which STOOD befoe God;…"

Prior to the introduction of the Seven Trumpets, the scene of heaven portrays the judgment set and the angels STOOD before God. These are the angels who "were given seven trumpets (Rev 8:2)".
Dan 7:10 "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand STOOD before him: the JUDGMENT WAS SET, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED."

My understanding is that all the seven trumpets should have been sounding ever since Jesus has entered into the Most Holy place at 1844 AD.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 05:33 PM

Sixth Seal = Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Seventh Seal = There was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Before His presence "all faces are turned into paleness;" upon the rejecters of God's mercy falls the terror of eternal despair. "The heart melteth, and the knees smite together, . . . and the faces of them all gather blackness." Jeremiah 30:6; Nahum 2:10. The righteous cry with trembling: "Who shall be able to stand?" The angels' song is hushed, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying: "My grace is sufficient for you." The faces of the righteous are lighted up, and joy fills every heart. And the angels strike a note higher and sing again as they draw still nearer to the earth. {GC 641.1}

Does the passage above describe the sixth and the seventh seals?

6) "Who shall be able to stand?"
7) A period of awful silence.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/03/14 05:43 PM

When was Jesus given the censer filled with incense - "there was given unto him much incense"? 1844?

When will Jesus fill the censer with fire and cast it down to the earth - "cast it into the earth"? When probation closes?

Why does the prophecy depict the angels sounding their trumpets one at a time after Jesus casts down the censer? Does it mean they transpire after probation closes?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/06/14 06:18 AM

Rev 5:9 “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”

Jesus is our High Priest. Heb. 8:1 “NOW OF the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;”

What do you think, Mountain Man? Was Jesus given the incense when He has ascended to heaven or only when He entered the Most Holy Place?

What I know for sure is that when Christ our high priest cast the censer that is filled with fire of the altar of incense into the earth (Rev8:5), the wrath of God will pour out upon the earth (Rev 15:7,8 and 16:1).
The incense of prayers that has gone up to the throne of God, which is mixed with ‘sweet incense’ of Jesus, must come down in the answer to His saints.

We understand that the casting of incense depicts the close of the probation. The seven angels of the trumpet stood before God and observed the judgment of God (Dan 7:10). When the judgment is completed the sounding of the trumpets were blown to warn the coming seven plagues of the wrath of God.

We must understand the function of the trumpet is to warn. 1 Cor 14:8 “For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”

The task of the warning of the Seven Trumpet is not an event. It only tells us about the things that will happen in the timeline of the final wrath of God.

The seven warnings of the trumpet are perfectly parallel to the seven plagues, as we have discussed before.

The warnings of the Seven Trumpet should not have to wait until the close of the probation just because it depicts issues of the things of the Seven Plagues.

The Seven Trumpet makes the whole image of understanding on what is coming in the Seven Plagues comprehensive. Transpiring the Seven Trumpet is saying that the Seven Plagues will fall.

We should be committed to tell the world of the imminent wrath of God in the Seven Plagues. I believe that this is the task of the Seven Trumpets that we must bear.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/07/14 02:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
What do you think, Mountain Man? Was Jesus given the incense when He has ascended to heaven or only when He entered the Most Holy Place?

Jesus carried the censer and incense into the MHP in 1844. He will fill the censer with fire and cast to earth when probation closes.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/07/14 01:42 PM

Is that means that Rev 8:2-5 portrays Jesus' intercessory ministry in the Most Holy Place ever since 1844?
If so, the introductory sanctuary vision in Rev 8:2-5 depicts the Seven Trumpet should have been blown ever since 1844 as the warnings of the coming Seven Plagues.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/07/14 01:57 PM


"Revelation 8:2-5 Covers the HEAVENLY SCENE

It begins with Christ in the Holy Place before the altar of incense offering up the prayers of the saints with His merits before God. (33 A.D. -- 1844 A.D.)"-poster Dedication

Hebrews 9:3-4 "And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;"

According to the above Scripture, the alter of incense in Heavenly place is considered as an article of the Most Holy Place.

The ministration of Jesus in Rev 8:2-5 at the MHP may indicate the Seven Trumpet's warning should have been sounded ever since 1844.
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/07/14 02:01 PM

Revelation 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. [6] And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

From these verses, it appears that:

1) Trumpets are for warning the people
2) This is an angel casting in the censer not Jesus declaring "It is done"
3) Voices
4) Thunderings
5) Lightnings
6) Earthquake

Voices?
Is the 3rd angel's message "Thundering" sounding the final warning?
Is there any "lightnings" shining on endtime events?
Any earth shaking events to waken God's people?

These are the warnings:

8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

1) Hail
2) Fire
3) Blood
4) Cast on the earth (literal or symbolic of America?)
5) Third part burned up

We have hail storms.
Fires are burning in America's west.
And ISIS is killing Americans (and everybody who does not agree with them)

Is any of that prophecy fulfilled?

8:8 "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"

1) Burning mountain into the sea

2) sea became blood

Mountain as I read it is from a root "to go up and to come down"

We have sent things up into orbit and they have come down

An American satellite as big as a school bus crashed into the Pacific a few years ago

And Russia lost contact with one of theirs that crashed into the Pacific shortly after that

And the Gulf Oil spill spewed the blood of "dead men" into the sea until we finally got it stopped

Does any of that remotely fit the prophecy?

Or are we to wait for something dramatic like the International Space Station crashing to earth like a flame of fire?

If the ISS like "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" would that fulfill the prophetic trumpet warning?

Should the ISS come down in a blaze of glory, many will argue that the trumpets are repeating.

Conversely many will argue that it is coincidental.

But the ISS could crash at any time even as soon as 22 October 2014.

We can speculate on possible prophetic scenarios, but until prophecy is fulfilled

How can we match the prophecy with the fulfillment?

And when prophecy is fulfilled,

How will we know that the event is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

Most folks seem to think their opinion is all they need

but they don't really know beans about prophecy because they do not study it
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/07/14 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Is that means that Rev 8:2-5 portrays Jesus' intercessory ministry in the Most Holy Place ever since 1844?
If so, the introductory sanctuary vision in Rev 8:2-5 depicts the Seven Trumpet should have been blown ever since 1844 as the warnings of the coming Seven Plagues. . . According to the above Scripture, the alter of incense in Heavenly place is considered as an article of the Most Holy Place. The ministration of Jesus in Rev 8:2-5 at the MHP may indicate the Seven Trumpet's warning should have been sounded ever since 1844.

The altar and the censer are two different items. The altar stays in the HP whereas the portable censer is hand-carried into the MHP on the Day of Atonement (22 Oct 1844). Rev 8:3-4 portray Jesus ministering in the MHP. Verse 5 depicts Jesus leaving the MHP and casting the fire-filled censer down to earth. The angels begin to sound their trumpets after Jesus casts the censer to earth.

Jesus could have returned shortly after 1844. In 1883 Ellen White wrote: "Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith . . . Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward." {1SM 68.1} Thus the trumpets would have sounded soon after the Great Disappointment. But delay has stood in the way.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/08/14 05:29 AM

"The altar and the censer are two different items. The altar stays in the HP whereas the portable censer is hand-carried into the MHP on the Day of Atonement (22 Oct 1844). Rev 8:3-4 portray Jesus ministering in the MHP. Verse 5 depicts Jesus leaving the MHP and casting the fire-filled censer down to earth. The angels begin to sound their trumpets after Jesus casts the censer to earth."-Poster Mountan Man

The throne of God of the heavenly sanctuary is movable throne. The purpose of the altar of incense is to carry the prayers of saints to the throne of God which Jesus has brought before the Father God. We are told that in answer to the prayers of the saints casting the fire upon the earth occurs, which depicts as the Seven Plagues.

The introductory vision of the mediation of Jesus Christ in the heavenly sanctuary contains the Seven Trumpet's warning. Which means that Jesus assures us of His ministration during the sound of all the Seven Trumpets.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/08/14 03:39 PM

Yes, the throne of God is eternal.

The altar is stationary. The censer is portable. Casting down the censer to earth symbolizes the close of probation. Then follows the sounding of the trumpets. That's how the prophecy reads chronologically. Perhaps you are right in believing the trumpets are sounded while Jesus is ministering in the MHP, before probation closes.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/09/14 04:24 AM

Why the Seven Trumpets must be the warnings for the Seven Plagues of the future event;
1. The bowl of ashes has not been casted upon the earth (Rev 8:3-5), which depicts the probation has closed with the event.
2. The four angels have not released (Rev 7:1); not until the command comes out from the throne to release (Rev 9:13-15), which depicts the probation has closed with the event.
3. The seventh seal has not yet opened (Rev 8:1), which depicts the probation has closed with the event.

The purpose of the Seven Trumpets is to warn the coming wrath of God in the Seven Plagues. We are told that the Seven Plagues are to fall after the probation closes. So the Seven Trumpets must sound their warnings before the probation closes. The apparent correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues portrays the fact.

Seven Trumpets..............................Seven Plagues
Upon the earth...............................Upon the earth
Upon the sea.................................Upon the sea
Upon the fresh water........................Upon the fresh water
Upon the heavenly bodies.................Upon the sun
Upon the star that fell from heaven.......Upon the seat of the beast
Warnings for the three identities........Plagues upon the three identities
Now become the kingdom of God........It is done

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/13/14 05:31 PM

Thank you for sharing, Karen. Do you apply the Trumpets historically?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/13/14 10:11 PM


My understanding is that if the Seven Trumpets are for the warning and not the events, it will become history eventually in the fulfillment of the Seven Plagues.

The first three of the trumpets portrays the plagues upon the physical spheres of the world and the next four of the trumpets portrays the plagues upon the realm of the spiritual spheres.

For example, the sun scorching hot in the fourth plague caused by the reason of the sun worship which signified by the Jezebel in the fourth church. In the fourth trumpet Jesus has revealed that the heavenly bodies will show signs of trouble. There is a cause to the effect. The sun worship causes the sun scorching hot. The fourth seal denote that the power of the beast suffered the saints of the Most High God-"…power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth (Rev6:8)". The prayers of the saints went up before the throne of God through the ages and finally God will answer their prayers by pouring out the incense (8:2-5).

The seat of the beast (Rev 16:10) is where the Satan's seat is (Rev 2:13 "…I know …even where Satan's seat is:…"), Jesus has revealed. No wonder the fifth trumpet denotes the activities of the demons as the warning. The saints under the altar (Rev 6:9) in the fifth seal cry out before the throne of God for avenges. The beast that came out from the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7, 17:8) tries to oppress the reformation in the church of the Sardis but only brings their suffering as to seek death (Rev 9:6). The torment is caused by the light of truth that penetrates the darkness (Rev 9:2). God answers the saints' prayers by pouring out darkness to the beast power upon their seat in the fifth plague. I believe that many myrtles of Christ are in the system of the spiritual Babylon right now according to my understanding of this perspective.

The sixth plague denotes a strong spiritual battle in the Armageddon. The word Armageddon portrays Abaddon which is the destroyer, the king of the bottomless pit (Rev 9:11). The three unclean spirits (16:12-16) - the dragon, the beast, the false prophets- are going to receive the sixth plague which indicated by the sixth trumpet by the fire, the smoke and the brimstone (9:18-"by these three…" 9:20-"by these plagues…"). Another clue is that the plague was poured upon the river Euphrates as same as indicated in the sixth trumpet. Probation ends at the point of time (9:15) when the voice of God commands to "loose the four angels(9:14)" in the river Euphrates. The sixth seal portrays the event of the Second Coming of Jesus. The sixth church of Philadelphia is the most favorable condition of the church to meet the Second Coming of Jesus.

There is no more intercession of Jesus Christ (8:2-8) after the warnings of the sixth trumpets. So the seventh trumpet only announces "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ…(11:15)". When Jesus says "It is done (16:17)", that will be the last plague upon the wicked. So there is a silence in heaven. Everything possible was done to save the humanity. The heavenly hosts have the breath taking silence for 'half hour': a cease of the constant praises in the presence of God. They only seem to say "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus (16:5)". The seventh church, the Laodiceans, is "neither cold nor hot(3:15)". Thus, the work of the salvation of humanity is complete at this point.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/14/14 05:53 AM

We need to understand that the seven trumpets are the warnings for the judgments from God upon the entire world; the Seven Plagues. It is NOT the event for the judgments in the Roman Empire and apostate Christendom in the history.
Everything finished by the sixth ones; sixth church(3:8), sixth seal(6:12-17), sixth trumpet(9:14), and sixth plague(16:12).
In Rev 6:12-17, the verse implies of the event of the Second Coming of Jesus. Notice how the verses are connected with the word 'and'.
In Rev 3:8, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it" - Advent Movement.
In Rev 9:14, "Loose the four angels" denotes the probation ends.
In Rev 16:12, "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared" denotes the Second Coming of Jesus.
After the sixth ones, nothing more is to occur. Thus there is a half hour silence. Kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of Christ. Do you see that nothing is happening in the seventh church-neither cold nor hot(3:16)?
The sixth angel is told to loose the four angels. This implies that the four angels were being held back from doing something.
In Rev chapter 7 we find the four angels holding back the four winds, that they would not blow on the earth until God's servants were sealed-Apocalyptic sealing.
The four horns(9:13) indicates mercy of God. In 1King 1:50-51, Adonijah is holding the horns of the altar for seeking a mercy. Thus the mercy of God ends when the four angels loose their hold in Rev 9:14-15. The hour, day, month, and the year denote a point of time. It is NOT for to add up 391 years 15 days in the prophetic time.

6th Plague--upon the Euphrates-kings of the east--dragon/beast/false prophets
6th Trumpet-in the Euphrates--loose the 4 angels--fire/smoke/brimstone

The sixth trumpet's warning is that the fire will punish the dragon, the smoke will punish the beast, and the brimstone will punish the false prophets at the time of the end of the probation. Why? Because the mouth of the dragon made their place the habitation of devils(18:2), the mouth of the beast made their place the hold of every foul spirit(18:2) and the mouth of the false prophets made their place the cage of every unclean and hateful bird(18:2).
The dragon implies heathen religions, which has possession of the devils.
The beast implies the Catholic, which has ‘dead saints’ as mediators-the foul spirits. The false prophets imply many abominable doctrines, which cause confusions as in the noise of the midst of the birds.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/14/14 02:14 PM

Karen, it sounds like you are saying the Trumpets do not have a historical fulfillment. Do you agree with Ellen White's interpretation and application of the Trumpets?
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/14/14 03:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Karen, it sounds like you are saying the Trumpets do not have a historical fulfillment. Do you agree with Ellen White's interpretation and application of the Trumpets?


MM
I found this EGW comment on the 7 trumpets:

"Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6." (15MR 219.2)

What are you finding that is "Ellen White's interpretation and application of the Trumpets?" Is it her writings or something from others?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/14/14 07:49 PM

The above quote is from (Entire journal entry for Sabbath, February 9, 1895, written at Granville, N.S.W.; and partial entry for Sabbath, February 16, 1895). {15MR 217.1}

The Feb. 9 entry is not concerning a vision or Bible study, it is a description of EGW's experience in a frightening storm.
This experience causes her to imagine how it would be to live through any of the natural upheavals of judgement.

For example she writes:
"When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth, hail will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent. The hail had struck Brother Belden. One stone struck him on the back of the head, raising a large lump." {15MR 220.1}

We know from the writings she had published that once that plague of hail (the seventh plague) comes there is no more mercy mixed with judgment.

Yet in this journal entry she writes:
"But there are mercies mixed with judgment. Revelation 7:3, 4. The Lord has a people whom He will preserve. John beheld the "four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree" (Revelation 7:1, 3) till the seal of the living God shall be placed upon those who love God and keep His commandments. The elements of nature are to be placed in the power of angels of God." {15MR 220}


She refers to Revelation 6 and 7 which deals with the seals, not the trumpets.

She then looks back to judgments in the past and how God worked.


Thus to take this passage as any kind of statement to say the trumpets are not referring to judgments in the past but are yet future is simply a supposition.

Why?

1. EGW is relating an experience of a literal storm they were involved in.

2. She is referring to "judgments" both past and future thus looking at the past when judgments are mixed with mercy, (Pharaoh at the Red Sea, etc) yet also thinking of the plagues in the future and that the angels are still holding the winds but will release them in the future.

3. Thus her statement concerning the angels holding the seven trumpets can be argued to fit in either category.

4. When writing in a journal, a person is not writing for publication, but rather jotting down thoughts of experiences and in EGW's case, jotting down thoughts to help her in her writings -- thoughts that reveal more a "mind flow" rather than (at that point of writing) a clear explanation of sequential events.

5. EGW never reproved the standard historicist interpretation of the seven trumpets, and in a number of places confirmed that understanding. The historicist interpretation has a clear revelation of the rise and mission of the church.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/14/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

Everything finished by the sixth ones; sixth church(3:8), sixth seal(6:12-17), sixth trumpet(9:14), and sixth plague(16:12).


In Rev 3:8, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it" - Advent Movement.

This refers to 1844, when the door to the MOST HOLY PLACE is opened and the work there begins. Humans have tried desperately hard to shut that door, but no man can shut it.


In Rev 9:14, "Loose the four angels" denotes the probation ends.

Those are four angels AT THE EUPHRATES, they only affect 1/3 of the population, and there is still time for repentance,

while the four angels of Rev. 7 are at the four corners (direction) of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, when they release, the sealing is past.

It's not the same event.


In Rev 16:12, "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared" denotes the Second Coming of Jesus.

This is the sixth plague, and indeed the seven plagues are yet future, but notice the sixth plague is preparation for the coming, not the coming itself.
The seventh plague of hail etc. is still to come before the actual appearance.


nothing is happening in the seventh church-neither cold nor hot(3:16)?

Really? But the seventh church age has a clear message calling for repentance from this lukewarm lethargy, and to invite Christ into our hearts.
We are very definitely in the seventh church age right now!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/15/14 01:04 AM


Thanks for the good argument in this discussion. I may understand some of your points. However, it seems that many of the arguments only focused to fit things in the timeline of the history. I confess that it was also my most difficult point of understanding for a long time until recently because I only knew the historicist interpretation.

The book of Revelation should be interpreted by the perspective of sanctuary service and its imagery and not by the historical interpretation.
God's way is in the sanctuary. Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: …"

The voice came out of the temple from the four horns of the golden altar to loose the four angels, which denote the end of the probation. Bible interprets itself. Consider the four angels in Rev 7:1, which they were commanded to HOLD the four winds. 'Hold it; Loose it!' were the command of God. The Seven Trumpets are talking about the imminent approach of the close of the probation. God will not punish the inhabiters of the earth without any warning for the Seven Plagues that are unimaginable and so terrible. Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/15/14 05:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

The book of Revelation should be interpreted by the perspective of sanctuary service and its imagery and not by the historical interpretation.
God's way is in the sanctuary. Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: …"


Understanding Revelation by the perspective of the sanctuary service is not in opposition to the historicist method of interpretation.

Since are dealing with the seven trumpets, I will use them as an example --

In the sanctuary ceremonies the first day of every month was begun with the blowing of trumpets and special ceremonies.

It is interesting that seven months pass. Each beginning with the "new moon" ceremony with trumpet blast. At the beginning of the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet blast with greater ceremony (feast of trumpets), announcing this is the month in which the day of atonement is to take place.

It's very probable that the blowing of the seven trumpets in Revelation correspond to the blowing of trumpets at the seven New Moon (or New Month) festivals in the Old Testament. Each new moon trumpet blowing was understood as a day of judgment in miniature, which warned people to prepare for the final judgment ushered in by the Feast of Trumpets on the "new moon" of the seventh month. When the seventh trumpet blew, it was to announce the Day of Atonement was at hand.

The ten days leading up to the day of Atonement is a period of deep soul searching and repentance to prepare themselves for the final cleansing and judgment on the day of atonement.

In Revelation
There we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, they are not all together . And when the seventh trumpet blows, in Revelation chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/15/14 05:45 AM

Of course what was "seven months" in the Jewish religious yearly cycle equates to the Christian era in full.

I personally believe
1st trumpet -- judgment upon Jerusalem for rejecting Christ
2nd trumpet -- judgment upon imperial Christian Rome
3rd and 4th trumpets concerned papal Rome

The woes concern the Islamic woes
5th -- their first conquest when they took over all lands south of the Mediterranean and became the "king of the south".
6th -- their second great conquests when they took over much of the eastern Christian areas.
7th -- includes what is described in Daniel 11:40-45 the last great war between Islam and Christianity, when the king of the North (Papal led "Christian" armies) appears to win and tries to force the whole world under their headship, but Christ finishes His work in the sanctuary and stands up to deliver His people and claim the kingdom.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/16/14 04:13 AM

5th -- their first conquest when they took over all lands south of the Mediterranean and became the "king of the south".-poster: Dedication

Considering the echoes of Isaiah in trumpet sequence as below, the fallen star in Rev 9:1 has to be the symbol of the Satan, the destroyer.

Isaiah Chap 14 Revelation Chap 9
Great Star Great Star
Heaven Heaven
Fierce struggle Fierce struggle
Fallen(ejection) Fallen(ejection)
Earth Earth
Pit Pit
Destroyer Destroyer

The fifth trumpet definitely portrays the demonic activities and they had a king, whose name is Abaddon, or Apollyon(9:11), which means destroyer.

The fifth trumpet also told us that there was a command ‘that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads(9:4).

The grass and the trees signify men on earth, which the first trumpet also told us that the green grass and the trees will be burn up.

The first plague will be poured upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image(16:2). This passage indicates that whoever has the seal of God in the forehead shall not be hurt, but whoever receives the mark of the beast will be hurt.

Fifth Trumpet(the seal of God)

⇒ First Trumpet(men on earth)
⇒
First Plague(the mark of the beast)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/16/14 06:46 AM

In post #168443, on Sept. 26, you wrote:
"the three woes are talking about the warning about the things that are happening just before the close of the probation."

But now it appears you have the fifth trumpet (first woe) after probation closes -- for it is after the sealing is complete that probation closes.

Also didn't Satan fall from heaven before the creation of this world?
Why would we see him falling from heaven in the fifth trumpet?
True he is the king of the bottomless pit, and the destroyer, but doesn't he work through human beings to activate his plans.

We understand the seven stars in Jesus' hands (Rev. 1:29)are seven "angels" or messengers of the seven churches. "In His hand are seven stars, representing the ministers of the churches."

In the same fashion the evil spirits use people to activate and advance their agenda.

LOOKING AT THE PHRASES IN FIFTH TRUMPET:

"The fifth trumpet also told us that there was a command ‘that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;"

What is interesting is back around 632 AD when the Islamic conquest set forth to conquer, that very command was given!!!

Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed, told his troops:
"When you fight the battles of the Lord, acquit yourselves like men, without turning your backs; but let not your victory be stained with the blood of women or children. Destroy no palm-trees, nor burn any fields of corn. Cut down no fruit-trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat. When you make any covenant or article, stand to it, and be as good as your word.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/17/14 01:10 AM

"the three woes are talking about the warning about the things that are happening just before the close of the probation."-Karen Y wrote on Sept 26, 2014

But now it appears you have the fifth trumpet (first woe) after probation closes -- for it is after the sealing is complete that probation closes.-poster:Dedication

My emphatic statement about the three woes plus the other trumpets of the seven is still the same: they are the warnings of the coming plagues-the Seven Plagues.

The first woe, which is the fifth trumpet, is the warning that every soul will be deceived by the demons unless he/she has the seal of God in their forehead (9:4). The seat of the beast (16:10) that was given by the fallen star (Satan, the deceiver) will become full of darkness (16:10) because he is coming out of the bottomless pit (11:7, 17:8, 9:2) to cast the smoke to darken the sun and the air.

‘Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed’ – Did he come out of the bottomless pit to cast the smoke to the sun and the air which caused the darkness?

In the fifth trumpet’s warning Satan has the key of the bottomless pit (9:1) for a season but he will be shut in (20:1-2) for a thousand years when the key is given to an angel at the second coming of Jesus.

Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed – Was he the king over the bottomless pit? Was his name given as Abaddon, or Apollyon?

The seat of the beast, which is Catholic Church, snatched the prayers of people that are depicted as the smoke. In Rev 5:8 “…golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints” indicate the reason of the smoke of the pit (9:2) in the fifth trumpet. Thus the fifth trumpet warns the darkness of the fifth plague upon the seat of the beast.

Rev 15:8 “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled”.

The smoke in the sanctuary portrays the prayers of the saints.

This is what I believe. The Seven Trumpets are the warnings for the Seven Plagues, which is illustrated in the Scriptures as after the completion of the apocalyptic sealing. But the warnings should not have to wait until the events of the Seven Plagues happen. We should make it known to the world while the mercy of God is still available as assured in Rev 8:2-5 during the sound of the seven trumpets.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/17/14 05:23 AM

The sixth trumpet, the horsemen are acting (9:17). Who are they? They are the armies(19:14) that follow the white horse who was ‘called Faithful and True (19:11). They have the powers to plague with the fire, the smoke and brimstone. Their armies of the horsemen are two hundred thousand thousand (9:16). ‘
Demonic agency in the bowel sequence
Sixth plague-these are demonic spirits, performing signs who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty, Armageddon.

The sixth trumpet is warning to the three unclean spirits. The army of the horsemen has weapons for each of the unclean spirit. The fire is for the dragon (heathen religions), the smoke is for the beast (catholic), and the brimstone is for the false prophet (apostate church).

As the two witnesses in Rev Chap. 11 have the powers, the sixth trumpet is saying that the horsemen have powers (9:19) to plague.

Rev 11:6 “These have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will”

The sixth trumpet (the second woe) is the warning to the sixth plague. When the apocalyptic sealing is completed and the probation has ended, the sixth plague will fall upon the three unclean spirits.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/17/14 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y


My emphatic statement about the three woes plus the other trumpets of the seven is still the same: they are the warnings of the coming plagues-the Seven Plagues.


I can agree with you on "the trumpets are warnings of the coming plagues" or final judgment.
The question however remains -- just what are those warnings and must they take place just days before, or are they on a broader scale -- warning generations of people that they will face judgment?



Quote:
The first woe, which is the fifth trumpet, is the warning that every soul will be deceived by the demons unless he/she has the seal of God in their forehead (9:4).


Again I can agree, everyone who has not received the sealing will be deceived.

However, again -- there is a general sealing, and a final seal.
The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
"Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God; Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." 1 Cor. 1:21-22

So again this does not limit the fifth trumpet to some future event just before the plagues. We can look at the way deceptions have been foisted on populations in the past, see where they have led, compare them to scripture and recognize them now. All the old deceptions are amalgamating together in the last great deception.



Originally Posted By: Karen
The seat of the beast (16:10) that was given by the fallen star (Satan, the deceiver) will become full of darkness (16:10) because he is coming out of the bottomless pit (11:7, 17:8, 9:2) to cast the smoke to darken the sun and the air.


You pull a lot of things together there.
But you do recognize that "the beast" is an established human power through which Satan works. So we can agree on that point. Further down you mention it's the Catholic Church -- actually it's not the church so much (there are honest Christians in that church) but it is the papal power with all its political, oppressive desire to control.

However, Rev. 11:7 is another power that rose "out of the pit", "here is brought to view a new manifestation of Satanic power." Remember the dragon is a seven headed creature, he isn't working through just one apparently Christian power. He whips up other powers and plays them against each other to create absolute chaos. Rev. 11, a new form of atheist power rises, which gave a graphic example of its character in the French Revolution.
And that violent revolutionary power will again manifest itself.

Before the darkness of the plague descends upon the seat of the beast, that Papal beast will appear as a bright saving (though false) light. The whole world will look to him in worshipful awe as the one to lead them out of chaos into peace.

That will deceive multitudes.



Originally Posted By: Karen
‘Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed’ – Did he come out of the bottomless pit to cast the smoke to the sun and the air which caused the darkness?


Abubeker, was just one man in the movement. Just like the "beast" is not one single man, but a whole succession of popes, so the power of the locusts, is a succession. And just like the masonic leaders in the French Revolution didn't come out of the pit (but received their power "from beneath") so the swarm of "locusts' receive their power from the same source.

Notice all these movements that used violence to change people's religious inclinations come from the same source.
The dragon gives his power to the first beast in Rev. 13
The second beast in Revelation 13 speaks the language of the dragon.

The atheist beast of Rev. 11 that brought on the "reign of terror" receives it's power from the bottomless pit.
And so also the swarms of Islamic armies of Rev. 9 with their "many horses running to battle" that swept the southern lands of Christianity away and enforced their religion on them are likened to a dark cloud rising from the bottomless pit hiding the sun (salvation in Christ).


Quote:
Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed – Was he the king over the bottomless pit? Was his name given as Abaddon, or Apollyon?


No.
It's not saying that THEY (the locusts) were Apollyon, but Apollyon (the destroyer) was their actually their king.
Like I've pointed out -- all these violent powerful human forces that seek to force people into their mold, are following the same "spirit".


Yes, the trumpets are warnings!
The biggest deception that will sweep the world is failure to perceive the full scope of the varied forces Satan is using to reach his goal. His goal is to have the whole world worship him as "God". He stirs the world up into violence by pitting all these previously mentioned powers against each other.
The Bible tells us who will come out on top, and the whole world will worship the beast.
It will seem to the world to be the answer to end the strife, it will appear like the right thing to do. It will appear like Christianity won.
Satan himself, will appear impersonating Christ.
The delusion will be powerful. Yet, it will not be honoring God, but misusing God's law and Word.

By heeding the warnings of history we need not fall prey to the delusions just before us.

Of course, like you mentioned -- we need the sealing power of the Holy Spirit -- without it deception is sure.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/17/14 02:25 PM

Karen, I agree with Ellen White and the pioneers and their historical application of the Trumpets. I also think the Trumpets have another application in future.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/19/14 04:07 AM

"Further down you mention it's the Catholic Church -- actually it's not the church so much (there are honest Christians in that church) but it is the papal power with all its political, oppressive desire to control."-poster: dedication

Dedication,

Thanks for reminding me to use a correct terminology about the Catholic Church. Yes, I meant the papacy power that will be punished by the smoke. The fifth trumpet warns about it. The fifth plague poured upon the seat of the beast (the Papacy), which you have identified rightly as the papal power as follow;

"Before the darkness of the plague descends upon the seat of the beast, that Papal beast will appear as a bright saving (though false) light. The whole world will look to him in worshipful awe as the one to lead them out of chaos into peace."-poster:dedication

I believe that there are many martyrs of Christ in the system of the Catholic Church even right now as I have mentioned before. No wonder, they cry out "How long, O Lord," until their blood be avenged, in the fifth Seal - notice the FIFTH seal.

The fifth trumpet warns about the star that fell from heaven (the Satan) is going to sweep the world. The Satan is the king of Abbadon or Apollyon. This is the first woe. So urgent that the eagle is flying in the midst of the heaven to announce with a loud voice (8:13). The eagle signifies the power of God to save His people.

The Fifth Church, Sardis, is given the words: "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die…Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard and hold fast, and repent…(3:2-3)".
Also, the fifth church was in the reformation Christian church period from the papacy.

I am more convinced in the application of the Seven Trumpets for the present and the future than the historical application.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/20/14 05:45 AM

I would like to summarize my viewpoint of the Seven Trumpets, which are the warnings about the coming seven plagues.
The sphere of the first plague is the EARTH as the first trumpet.
In the same way the second angel’s bowl of the plague links with the second angel’s trumpet, which affected the SEA.
The third angel’s trumpet affected the RIVERS and FOUNTAINS OF WATERS as the third angel’s bowl.
The fourth angel’s bowl is poured out upon the SUN, even as at the sounding of the fourth trumpet the third part of the sun was smitten, and “men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God…”

At the sounding of the fifth trumpet, we were told, “the bottomless pit was opened, and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit” (Rev. 9:2). This is judicial darkness brought about by demoniacal delusions. This parallels the darkness that filled the kingdom of the Beast when the fifth angel’s bowl of wrath is poured upon the seat of the Beast.

The sixth angel’s bowl poured upon the great river Euphrates that parallels with the sixth angel’s trumpet in the great river Euphrates that the four angels were loose. We are told that the three unclean spirits are gathering the world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The seventh angel’s bowl is poured out into the air and we are told, “It is done”. “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ” (Rev 9:15) which declared in the Seventh Trumpet as foretold.

Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/21/14 04:28 PM

Karen, if you are right, what difference does it make now? How can we use your interpretation to proclaim the 3AM?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/22/14 05:29 AM

ood question, Mountain Man. I believe that the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation portrays the actions of Joshua at Jericho. After the Israelites crossed the Jordan the fortified city of Jericho was to overcome by marching around the Jericho once a day by sounding their trumpet for six days and then seven times on the final trumpet blast. “By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days” (Heb 11:30). Like Jericho, the spiritual Babylon the Great will also fall under the hand of modern priests (Num 10:8, 1Pet 2:9) who keep the commandment of God, and have the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17).

God’s people must awaken to His final plan to collapse the spiritual Babylon prior to entering the heavenly Canaan. I believe that the correct understanding of the Seven Trumpets will awaken the remnant church of God, and will seal them preceding the close of the probation. Then, the collapse of the Babylon the great will happen.
“God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Heb 11:40).
Basically, the Seven Trumpets indicate that the close of the probation is imminent and the wrath of God will pour out in the Seven Plagues.
Just like the Israelites were trembling before Goliath (1 Sam Chap 17), the remnant church is so afraid and trembles before the power of the beast that also received strength from the kings of the earth (17:13). However, Rev 17:16 indicated that the ten horns (ten kings – 17:12) eventually will ‘hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire’ (17:16).
How can the gears of the kings of the earth shifted suddenly away from the whore unless somebody tells them the truth?
We are told what will happen in the Scripture, and God will surely perform. ‘By faith’ we must tell the world the three angel’s messages. We must have the spirit of David to face the conflict with the beast. 1 Sam 17:45, “Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of the hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.”
The fact of the matter is that the three unclean spirits are so afraid of the truth of God that would be proclaimed by the church of the remnant they gather (or unit) together to battle for that great day of God Almighty (16:14).
The task for the God’s remnant church to face the united forces is so great and enormously unimaginable. Therefore, we are told to pray for the outpouring of the Spirit of God, the latter rain, just as the apostolic time for them to carry the commission of Jesus (Matt 28:19-20).
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/22/14 04:31 PM

Who is the Remnant Church? Is it the Seventh-day Adventist Church?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/23/14 02:12 AM

They are the ones who keep the commandment of God, and have the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17). Do you know any denomination besides the SDA?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/23/14 06:09 AM

-----------------------------------------(10) New Heaven and New Earth
-------------------------------------(9) Reviewing the Judgment
-------------------------------(8) The Second Coming of Jesus
-------------------------(7) The fall of the Babylon
----------------------(6) Seven Plagues
-----------------(5) Expose the ID of Satan
-------------(4) Seven Trumpets
---------(3) Seven Seals
-----(2) Judgment prior to the Sealing
(1) Seven Churches

See how the seven churches usher into the church in heaven(22:16).
(1) The Seven Churches must go through the judgment of God in the heavenly throne room prior to sealing.
(2) Once the saints are sealed, they are the ones who will blow the Seven Trumpets.
(3) After the expose of the Satan's identity, the Seven Plagues will fall, which causes the collapse of the Babylon the great.
(4) Then, Jesus' second coming occurs. The redeemed saints will review the judgment of God during the millennium.
(5) New heaven and new earth will be made new.

You may discover how the development of the Book of Revelation presents the culmination in this way of overview. Obviously the function of the Seven Trumpets is for the future to warn the coming Seven last Plagues.
Without the fall of the Babylon, there will be no second coming of Jesus.
Without the sound of the Seven Trumpets, the Seven Plagues fall not.
Without the Seven Churches, there is no sealing.

The main body of the book of Revelation is divided into four sections of the sevens.
(1) The Seven Churches
(2) The Seven Seals
(3) The Seven Trumpets
(4) The Seven Plagues

(1) and (2) parallel together.
(3) and (4) parallel together.

Supplementary visions in the Book of Revelation

Seven Churches (Chap 1-3)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 4-5)
Seven Seals (Chap 6-7)
*Supplementary Vision (Chap 7)
Seven Trumpets (Chap 8 – 11)
*Supplementary Vision (Chap 10-11:14)
*Supplementary Vision (Chap 12-14)
Seven Plagues (Chap 15-16)
*Supplementary Vision (Chap 17-18)
The Second Coming of Jesus (Chap 19)
Reviewing the Judgment (Chap 20)
The universe restored (Chap 21-22)

Take notice again the chapter outlines in the Book of Revelation(BoR).
Chapter 1 Introduction
2 - 3 Seven Churches
4 – 5 Throne scene
6 Seven Seals
* 7, 10 Interludes
8,9,11 Seven Trumpets
12 – 14 Exposing Identity of Satan
15 - 16 Seven Plagues
17 – 18 Fall of Babylon the Great
19 The Second Coming of Jesus
20 Reviewing the Judgment
21 - 22 New Heaven and New Earth(Conclusion)
* Interludes are given to emphasize or amplify the message

Messages concerning about:
Chap. 1 -7 the saints
Chap. 8 - 14 the wicked
Chap. 15 - 18 the most wicked
Chap. 19 - 22 the righteous

The BoR is supernaturally engineered with integrated message; making things clear for the interpretation with every details. However, knowing the overview keeps us focused how the events should develop.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/23/14 06:14 AM

-----------------------------------------(10) New Heaven and New Earth
-------------------------------------(9) Reviewing the Judgment
-------------------------------(8) The Second Coming of Jesus
-------------------------(7) The fall of the Babylon
----------------------(6) Seven Plagues
-----------------(5) Expose the ID of Satan
-------------(4) Seven Trumpets
---------(3) Seven Seals
-----(2) Judgment prior to the Sealing
(1) Seven Churches

See how the seven churches usher into the church in heaven(22:16).
(1) The Seven Churches must go through the judgment of God in the heavenly throne room prior to sealing.
(2) Once the saints are sealed, they are the ones who will blow the Seven Trumpets.
(3) After the expose of the Satan's identity, the Seven Plagues will fall, which causes the collapse of the Babylon the great.
(4) Then, Jesus' second coming occurs. The redeemed saints will review the judgment of God during the millennium.
(5) New heaven and new earth.

You may discover how the development of the Book of Revelation presents the culmination in this way of overview. Obviously the function of the Seven Trumpets is for the future to warn the coming Seven last Plagues.
Without the fall of the Babylon, there will be no second coming of Jesus.
Without the sound of the Seven Trumpets, the Seven Plagues fall not.
Without the Seven Churches, there is no sealing.

The main body of the book of Revelation is divided into four sections of the sevens.
(1) The Seven Churches
(2) The Seven Seals
(3) The Seven Trumpets
(4) The Seven Plagues

(1) and (2) parallel together.
(3) and (4) parallel together.

Supplementary visions in the Book of Revelation

Seven Churches (Chap 1-3)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 4-5)
Seven Seals (Chap 6-7)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 7)
Seven Trumpets (Chap 8 – 11)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 10-11:14)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 12-14)
Seven Plagues (Chap 15-16)
* Supplementary Vision (Chap 17-18)
The Second Coming of Jesus (Chap 19)
Reviewing the Judgment (Chap 20)
The universe restored (Chap 21-22)

Take notice again the chapter outlines in the Book of Revelation(BoR).
Chapter 1 Introduction
2 - 3 Seven Churches
4 – 5 Throne scene
6 Seven Seals
* 7, 10 Interludes
8,9,11 Seven Trumpets
12 – 14 Exposing Identity of Satan
15 - 16 Seven Plagues
17 – 18 Fall of Babylon the Great
19 The Second Coming of Jesus
20 Reviewing the Judgment
21 - 22 New Heaven and New Earth(Conclusion)
* Interludes are given to emphasize or amplify the message

Messages concerning about:
Chap. 1 -7 the saints
Chap. 8 - 14 the wicked
Chap. 15 - 18 the most wicked
Chap. 19 - 22 the righteous

The BoR is supernaturally engineered with integrated message; making things clear for the interpretation with every details. However, knowing the overview keeps us focused how the events should develop.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/25/14 12:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
They are the ones who keep the commandment of God, and have the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17). Do you know any denomination besides the SDA?

No. The SDA Church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/25/14 04:25 AM

Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Only two worldwide churches exist in this world; The Papacy and the SDA (Seventh-Day Adventist).
The worldwide concepts portrays in the following verses: Rev 5:9, 7:9, 11:9, 10:11, 14:6, 13:7 and 17:15.
(1) Rev 5:9 “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nations;”
(2) Rev 7:9 “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
(3) Rev 11:9 “And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”
(4) Rev 10:11 “And he sid unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.”
(5) 14:6 “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”
(6) 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
(7) 17:15 “And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

We are told that each worldwide concept denotes; (1)’ 5:9 – blood of Christ covers the whole humanity. (2)’ 7:9 –resurrection of the humankind. (3)’ 11:9 –Bible is given to humankind. (4)’ 10:11 –commission given to SDA. (5)’ 14:6 –SDA has the three angels message. (6)’ 13:7 –Papacy dominates the humankind. (7)’ 17:15 –Papacy identified.
As you see, there are only two distinct worldwide churches in this world: SDA vs. Papacy.
Only David went against the Goliath to win the battle between Israelite and Palestine.
Only SDA can go against the Papacy because we have the truth, the word of God!
This battle is the battle of the religions: the law of God vs. Satan’s altered ten commandments.
People with the word of God are stronger in the battle; many people will be joining the remnant people of God.
Here are the promises of God: Zechariah 8:23 “Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.” Isaiah 60:4,5 “Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.”
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/26/14 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The task for the God’s remnant church to face the united forces is so great and enormously unimaginable. Therefore, we are told to pray for the outpouring of the Spirit of God, the latter rain, just as the apostolic time for them to carry the commission of Jesus (Matt 28:19-20).

Karen, I've been promoting your view of the trumpets here for 14 years with limited success. In my view we are at the start of Revelation 8 where Christ is about to commission the trumpets to sound in answer to the prayer of faith of His people. This brings the latter rain that announces the hour of His judgment with seven trumpet blasts. The three angels messages are a summary of events under the seven trumpets. During these trumpets the everlasting gospel is given in more than Penticostal power. Like Joshua we are on a divine march with a seven fold mandate and Babylon is the stronghold that has to be taken before we possess the promised land. But we have to conquer the Babylon within ourselves first. May God help us.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/26/14 08:32 PM

Hi Mark,
The Seven Trumpets are talking about the judgment of God in the Seven Plagues as the warning. We can easily observe in the structures of the Book of the Revelation besides what is described in the Seven Trumpets. In the previous chapter of seven, we are told that there was a command not to hurt the earth and the trees because of the Apocalyptic Sealing of God. The sound of the first trumpet indicates that the holding back of the 'hurt' is over upon the green grass and the trees. The chapter seven is a pause in the Seven Seals which heightens the emphasis of the sealing. The silence of the half hour strongly indicates that 'calm before the storm'. Judgment of the Seven Plagues is underway and what is being described in the Seven Trumpets will be taking place very soon. The probation of God will be forever closed. May God help us to understand His word and His plan for His people correctly!
Early Writings, pg 36 "I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues."
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/28/14 06:38 PM

"As you see, there are only two distinct worldwide churches in this world: SDA vs. Papacy. Only David went against the Goliath to win the battle between Israelite and Palestine. Only SDA can go against the Papacy because we have the truth, the word of God! This battle is the battle of the religions: the law of God vs. Satan’s altered ten commandments. People with the word of God are stronger in the battle; many people will be joining the remnant people of God."

Amen!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/29/14 12:14 AM

I am thinking that the three unclean spirits know their inadequate strength against the Truth which the remnant church of God has. That is why they are uniting the evil forces.

I heard a news from the California State University where scientist Mark Armitage was fired because he published a paper that suggested that soft tissue was found in a triceratops that died no more than 4000 years ago rather than the common view putting extinction at 65 million years ago. Many evolution scientists must be tormented by the truth of his finding.

So just as we may perceive an understanding from this story the three unclean spirits are gathering their evil forces together for the battle of Armageddon because they are fearful of the remnant of God.

We are told that God's way is that evil destroys themselves which the sixth trumpet indicates the four angels loose their hold and there are chaos on the earth; one third of men killed by the plagues (Rev 9:18-20).

2 Chron 20:22 "And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten"

God has placed 'ambushments' in the Babylon already. Rev 18:21 "And a mighty angel(ambushments) took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into te sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

The prophetic movement of the SDA has the power of God to go against the Papacy. The SDAs are 'called, and chosen, and faithful (Rev 17:14). May God help us to be 'faithful'!

Without the blasting of the Seven Trumpets warning, no Babylon the great will fall.
If the Babylon does not fall, the Second Coming of Jesus will not occur.

Heb 11:40 "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

May God help us to move forward!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/29/14 03:33 AM

"As we near the close of this world’s history, the prophecies relating to the last days especially demand our study. The last book of the New Testament scriptures is full of truth that we need to understand. Satan has blinded the minds of many, so that they have been glad of any excuse for not making the Revelation their study. " - COL 133.2

Rev 16:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." - It is a miracle that they become united as friends that their religious differences use to make them enemies.

Luke 23:12 "And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves." - Pilate and Herod also became friends when they wanted kill Jesus.

Rev 11:10 "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." - People thought that they destroyed the Word of God (Bible) and rejoiced.

The three unclean spirits are uniting their forces to kill saints of God this last days.
However, only until "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled (Rev 17:17)".
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/29/14 05:58 PM

Karen, if the trumpets are warnings, have you dealt with what Rev 9:20-21 says,
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
How do the trumpets serve as a warning if they either die or don't repent?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/30/14 02:41 AM

In the light of these statements below, what do you think?

"This is the sharpest experience I have ever had in a carriage in a storm...I thought of the day when the judgments of God would be poured out upon the world, when blackness and horrible darkness would clothe the heavens as sackcloth of hair...my imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, 'Go your ways and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth'. Revelation 6 & 7 are full of meaning terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth. When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth hail will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent." Letter 59, 1895.

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." Maranatha 237, 3 Selected Messages 426.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/30/14 03:25 AM

The sixth trumpet introduces the weapons of the plagues, which were the fire, the smoke and the brimstone when the four angels were loosed in the great river Euphrates. The targets of the weapons are not known in the sixth trumpet but we are told in the Sixth Plague, which are the dragon, the beast, and the false prophets. As the result of the plague, the one third of the mankind dies and some are still left (the wicked) as indicated in the Rev. 9:18,20-21. The remains of the impenitent wicked will experience the bird feast, which described in the Chap. 19. Notice that Jesus has already experienced the death of the bird feast on the cross to save the sinners but if the wicked repent not, they must suffer their choosing. Please consider these scriptures below;


Psalms 22:15-18 “My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

Psalm 69:21 “They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.”

John 19:28 “After this Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.”

Luke 23:33 “And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.”

Matt 24:28 “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

Genesis 40:19 “Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.”

Deut. 21:22-23 “And if a men have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
Rev 19:17-18 “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Rev 6:15 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, his themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;”

Rev 9:6 “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/30/14 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
In the light of these statements below, what do you think?

"This is the sharpest experience I have ever had in a carriage in a storm...I thought of the day when the judgments of God would be poured out upon the world, when blackness and horrible darkness would clothe the heavens as sackcloth of hair...my imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, 'Go your ways and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth'. Revelation 6 & 7 are full of meaning terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth. When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth hail will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent." Letter 59, 1895.

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." Maranatha 237, 3 Selected Messages 426.
It sounds clear to me it is talking about the plagues of judgment coming at the end. Nothing about a warning or opportunity to repent.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/31/14 08:11 PM

I agree.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/14 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y


Early Writings, pg 36 "I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues."


This seems to be in full harmony with the purpose of this book. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1). Jesus Christ is revealed in this book more than anyone else.
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/14 07:48 PM

Early Writings, pg 36 "I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues."

Karen--"The prophetic movement of the SDA has the power of God to go against the Papacy. The SDAs are 'called, and chosen, and faithful (Rev 17:14). May God help us to be 'faithful'!

Amen, however let us remember that this "spiritual warfare" will only be successful upon the pouring out of God's full Spirit at the time of the Loud Cry.

"The third angel’s message is to lighten the earth with its glory; but only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it when it shall have swelled into the loud cry." (RH, No.19, 1908)

Before we address EW, p.36, it is certainly correct in that "Jesus Christ is revealed in Revelation" more than any other book in the Bible. The Seven trumpets show how in every age (after each sealing period) the rejecters of God’s truth and mercy bring destruction upon themselves. Also, how in our time we may be sealed and thus escape the terrors of the great and dreadful day of the Lord - the Judgment of the Living. Which begins in God's house, our church (1 Peter 4:17)

Though the author of Early Writings says that Christ will not leave the sanctuary before His "work is done," yet elsewhere she writes:

"They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, 'until,' said the angel, 'the Lord Jesus shall rise up from his mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"--Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 690.

Viewing the question in the light of both statements, we see that Christ leaves the sanctuary at a certain time in the "unrolling of the scroll." Coming to the church, He finds her not spotless and ready to meet Him, but deep in sin, yet self complacently feeding upon the errors, faults, and mistakes of others.

Without attempting to explain the event described in E.W. 36, we shall inquire only into the matter of whether it is possible in view of the E.W. statement for Jesus to "leave" the most holy place to execute the work of Ezek. 9 before the general close of human probation.

To begin with there is nothing in the word "leave" that connotes finality and permanence of condition or action. To leave once does not preclude the possibility of having left on previous occasions and then returned. Hence, on the logic of language alone, the mere fact that Sr. White "saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy until every case was decided," does not argue that He could therefore never have left the most holy place before, and that He cannot leave it to execute Eze. 9 on the church.

However, we need not base our position entirely on logic. The Scriptures abundantly evidence the fact that Jesus is to dwell in the midst of His People at a time before every case is decided.

We quote Zech. 2:10, 11 -- "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be My people."

Verse 11 proves that in "that day" when He comes and dwells in the midst of Zion, "many nations shall be joined to the Lord," and every S.D.A. ought to know that there will be no nations joined to the Lord after probation is closed.

Moreover, in Isa. 66:15, which reads, "Behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," (Verse 16) "For by fire and by His sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many," we see that when He comes with fire, it is to "plead" with all flesh, which proves that it is during probationary time, for after the close of probation God will plead with no flesh.

Furthermore, Isa. 66:20 proves that it is in this time during which the Lord pleads with all flesh that "many nations" -- "all your brethren" -- are joined to the Lord. Hence, "in that day," the day of slaughter (Eze. 9; Isa. 63; Isa. 66), He "will come, and...dwell in the midst of "Zion."

Therefore, it is clear that Jesus is to come and dwell in the midst of His people here on earth before the close of probation, as He dwelt with His people in the exodus movement, as is described in Isa. 4.

Some have an altogether too narrow view of the Godhead. They think that in order for Jesus to carry on the investigative judgment in the heavenly sanctuary, He must confine Himself there every moment, and that even in case of necessity He cannot leave the place of the most holy apartment to do anything else until His mediatorial work is finished.

Christ's departure from the holy place, at the consummation of the investigative judgment, is to result in His visible second advent, whereas the event of Eze. 9 and Zech. 2:9-11 is an invisible coming.

So let us thoroughly look at Revelation from the "whole view" and understand that Scripture points out events that we as SDA have not generally known.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/14 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Godsloveandlaw
The Scriptures abundantly evidence the fact that Jesus is to dwell in the midst of His People at a time before every case is decided.

We quote Zech. 2:10, 11 -- "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be My people."

Verse 11 proves that in "that day" when He comes and dwells in the midst of Zion, "many nations shall be joined to the Lord," and every S.D.A. ought to know that there will be no nations joined to the Lord after probation is closed.

Moreover, in Isa. 66:15, which reads, "Behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," (Verse 16) "For by fire and by His sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many," we see that when He comes with fire, it is to "plead" with all flesh, which proves that it is during probationary time, for after the close of probation God will plead with no flesh.

Furthermore, Isa. 66:20 proves that it is in this time during which the Lord pleads with all flesh that "many nations" -- "all your brethren" -- are joined to the Lord. Hence, "in that day," the day of slaughter (Eze. 9; Isa. 63; Isa. 66), He "will come, and...dwell in the midst of "Zion."

Therefore, it is clear that Jesus is to come and dwell in the midst of His people here on earth before the close of probation, as He dwelt with His people in the exodus movement, as is described in Isa. 4. . .


Good food for thought GLL. Isn't it clear that Christ dwells with us corporately in a special sense when the latter rain is poured out? The glory of Christ that appeared in the fiery pillar and the cloud are a symbol of His presence with the armies of Spiritual Israel under the power of the latter rain on their final march to the promised land.

The seven trumpets are warnings and calls to repent and come out of Babylon which is about to fall: Probation is still open during the first five trumpets. Let me suggest a few reasons:

1) The sealing of the 144,000 is not complete and the four winds are still held in check until the sixth trumpet because the winds of strife are not fully let loose until the voice from the altar tells the four angels holding the winds to release them. They are being released gradually in the first five trumpets, warning men and women that a full release is coming and that the sealing of the twelve spiritual tribes is about to end:
Quote:
Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God,
Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."


2) Repentance and receiving the seal of God is possible until the sixth trumpet. At the sixth trumpet the sealing is complete and repentance is at an end.
Quote:
Rev 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk,
Rev 9:21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


3) The feast of trumpets occurs 10 days before the Day of Atonement. It prepares Israel for the Day of Reckoning. Anciently this feast marked the start of a special time of self-examination of God's people, preparatory to the Day of Atonement.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/14 11:15 PM

The reason that the voice issues from the altar is that the altar is the site of atonement. When the blood of the atonement of Christ is completed there, the voice issues from that altar that the atonement is done, the sealing is complete, the blood is fully applied, the altar is cleansed! So the altar speaks in a figure that it's work - the work of Christ - on behalf of Spiritual Isreal's twelve tribes is over! So Israel is sheltered and the blood of the covenant protects and sustains them but those in Babylon who have not responded to the call of mercy are left defenseless in their sins.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/14 11:32 PM

But Ellen White tells us that in the same way that Christ cleansed the temple twice during His earthly ministry - once at the start and once at it's close - the second and third angel's messages will be repeated and have a similar effect. Probation will close for many of us Adventists at the repeating of the second angel's message when we will come face to face with a test of whether we will serve God and His Commandments or bow to human laws and traditions. So there is a progressive sealing and closing of probation during the trumpets and the three angel's messages. EGW was shown that those who rejected the second angel's message in 1844 could see no light in the third and said it will be the same in the future. So there is some truth to the view of some of you here that the trumpets are repeated after the close of probation. What I'm suggesting is that probation will close for many of us at the beginning of the first trumpet but that this will be a time of mercy for those who haven't had the opportunity to hear the message of mercy - pardon full and free, Christ our Righteousness.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/02/14 05:06 AM

Jesus signifies the end of the world in each of the sixth of the seven series (church,seal,trumpet,plague).
The Sixth Plague portrays the ‘great day of God Almighty’ finally arrived. At the river of Euphrates, the three unclean spirits will be plagued to the victory of God.
The Sixth Trumpet indicates the probation of God ends at the boundary of Euphrates River. Notice Genesis 15:18 and Genesis 2:14.
The sixth Seal portrays Jesus’ Second Coming. Some ’said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us…’
The Sixth Church indicates that Jesus opened and no man can shut.

The angels stood before the throne of God and watched the judgment (Dan 7:10). Now the scene changes and awaits order from God for the execution of the judgment in the Seven Plagues.


Thus, each seventh of the series only have announcement to make.
1) The ominous silence before the announcement of the final judgment of God.
2) The seventh church is neither hot of cold
3) The seventh trumpet declares the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our LORD.
4). The seventh plague announces ‘It is done’.

In the view of the sixth ones, which ‘signified’ as the end of the world, we are told that the seven trumpets are also ‘signified’ as the warning of the seven plagues. Remember that the seven trumpets emerged while the mercy of God exists.
1. The bowl of ashes has not been casted upon the earth (Rev 8:3-5).
2. The four angels have not released (Rev 7:1); not until the command comes out from the throne to release (Rev 9:13-15).
3. The seventh seal has not yet opened (Rev 8:1).

The end of the probation of God is very imminent. We must tell the church to wake up; otherwise the LORD will come as a thief (Rev 3:3, 16:15).
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/03/14 10:53 AM

Mark-- "Isn't it clear that Christ dwells with us corporately in a special sense when the latter rain is poured out? The glory of Christ that appeared in the fiery pillar and the cloud are a symbol of His presence with the armies of Spiritual Israel under the power of the latter rain on their final march to the promised land."

Yes, in a sense this is true, But it does not negate the words His spoke and prophesied in Zech, and Isaiah.

Mark- "The seven trumpets are warnings and calls to repent and come out of Babylon which is about to fall: Probation is still open during the first five trumpets."

I believe I posted a study on the 7 Trumpets already.But let us revisit it here briefly-

Mark--"The seven trumpets are warnings and calls to repent and come out of Babylon which is about to fall: Probation is still open during the first five trumpets."

Here is a brief synopsis--

Let it not, however, be understood that the respective destructions revealed in the subject of the seven trumpets must be one and the same in time and event with the corresponding destructions of the seven last plagues, for such a conclusion is made impossible by the fact that the voice which spoke to the angel at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, saying, "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates," came "from the four horns of the golden altar." Rev. 9:13, 14.

The altar's being in the holy apartment of the sanctuary at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, proves that the trumpet sounded before the Most Holy apartment was opened for use. For had it been in use, the "voice" would necessarily have come from therein, where the throne is. Hence, the sounding of this trumpet had to take place before the door of the Most Holy was opened and the throne occupied.

Just as the seven plagues, therefore, reveal the judgments to be visited upon the wicked living after they reject the message in the closing period of this world's history, so the seven trumpets reveal, as will be seen, the sequent destructions of the successive
generations of the wicked, each of whose probation closed consequent to their rejecting God's respective message to them.
Thus the trumpets culminate with those who reject His message to them today.

This basic truth that each period of destruction follows only after a corresponding period of sealing, is corroborated by the fact that the symbolical locusts, which came up at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, hurt only those men which had "not the seal of God in their foreheads." All this shows not only that each trumpet follows its sealing period, but also that the nature of the trumpets reveals the punishment of those who failed to receive the seal in their particular periods.

Rev. 8:1, 6. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.... And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

The statements, "which must shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1), and "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), go to say that The Revelation is given with the one particular object in view of showing "the things" lying, not behind, but ahead of, John's time with reference being make only incidentally to the past, in order to lay the necessary foundation upon which to build the future. (Final Warning, Tract 5, p.31-32)

As for Rev.9:13-14 ---

THE SIXTH TRUMPET.
Revelation 9:13 to 11:14.

Rev. 9:13,14. "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."

It will be observed that though each of the trumpets begin at a definite time, yet one overlaps the other, and all seven extend to the second coming of Christ. This is seen in the coexistence of the truths of all seven. The flood (first trumpet), the Exodus movement (second trumpet), the giving of the Old Testament Scriptures (third trumpet), the church's going into captivity (fourth trumpet), Christ's first advent and subsequent events (fifth trumpet), are all sounding louder today than ever before.

And as these truths constitute the gospel for today, it is evident that though the trumpets run in consecutive order, each beginning at a different time, they all continue in force to the end of the world, terminating therewith. Thus the rejection of one being tantamount to the rejection of all seven, the lesson is sharply drawn that to reject one truth is to reject the whole truth.

With the fourteenth verse of Revelation 9 begins the description of the sixth trumpet, and it ends with the fourteenth verse of Revelation 11, which announces: "The second woe [sixth trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." Accordingly, each prophetic event recorded between Revelation 9:14 and 11:14 must find its fulfillment in the period of the sixth trumpet -- between the first and the second woes.

In the light of this fact, we see that the time in which the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11:3 were to "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth," must occur during the sounding of the sixth trumpet. And being in the future tense, the phrase, "shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 11:3), shows that at the time the trumpet began sounding, this period of 1260 days was yet future.

The voice which came from the golden altar said "to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." In order to identify "the four angels," we must first understand the literal meaning of the river Euphrates.

The capital city of ancient Babylon was built on either side of the Euphrates, thus dividing the city in two parts. The river was also the source of water supplying a fortifying mote about the city. So because the ancient Babylonians were the first to build on the banks of the Euphrates, and because the original application must attach to the original settlers there, the "great river Euphrates" emerges as a type of "the waters...where the whore sitteth" (Rev. 17:15) -- modern Babylon. And this important truth is amplified by the fact that the ancient city, Babylon, does not now exist, whereas prophecy calls for a Babylon today.

Now in order for there to be a modern Babylon, there must necessarily be a repetition today of the conditions and events essentially characterizing ancient Babylon in its connection with God's people. Consequently, their captivity in Babylon, the type (Jer. 29:10), must find its parallel in Babylon, the antitype.

Very obviously, therefore, the angel's being "bound in the great river Euphrates" must be figurative of the Christian church during the period of her captivity in antitypical Babylon -- "that great city" rising after John' s time .

Furthermore, the statement made by the voice from the golden altar, "loose the four angels which are bound," conclusively shows that when the "voice" spoke, the church (the angels) was already in captivity and was to be loosed.

Rev. 9:15, first clause. "And the four angels were loosed."

The execution of the command, "Loose the four angels," meaning to set the church free from her captivity in Babylon, resulted in her being liberated from her long bondage to the tyranny of church-state rule, and in the Bible's being restored to God's people, so that they might study and worship in fear and in favor of no man, and in accountability only to their conscience and to their God.

In the consequent dissolution of the church-state union, the "four angels" were loosed. (Ibid, p.78-81)

If you'd like me to continue on Rev. 9:15, etc. let me know.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/03/14 02:27 PM

"The altar's being in the holy apartment of the sanctuary at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, proves that the trumpet sounded before the Most Holy apartment was opened for use. For had it been in use, the "voice" would necessarily have come from therein, where the throne is. Hence, the sounding of this trumpet had to take place before the door of the Most Holy was opened and the throne occupied."-poster: Godsloveandlaw

We must consider these Scripture verses:

Heb. 9:8 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all …."
Heb 9:2-5 "For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
And over it the sherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly."
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/04/14 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
3) The feast of trumpets occurs 10 days before the Day of Atonement. It prepares Israel for the Day of Reckoning. Anciently this feast marked the start of a special time of self-examination of God's people, preparatory to the Day of Atonement.
Does the 7 trumpets relate to the feast of trumpets? If so, then one would expect the other visions of Revelation to relate to the feasts. (Seals, plagues, etc.)

Are all occurrences of trumpets associated with warnings? If not, then could this be a place where it does not either?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/05/14 06:49 AM

We say that we are in the Anti-Typical Day of Atonement since 1844. The Seven Trumpets certainly have allusion of the feast of trumpets. The sound of the seven trumpets is to awake the spiritual Israel so that they would search and afflict their souls before probation ends.

1 Cor 14:8 "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/05/14 07:53 PM

If so, then how do the Seals, plagues, etc. relate to the feasts?
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/06/14 04:31 AM

Karen--"We must consider these Scripture verses:"

Heb. 9:8 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all …."
Heb 9:2-5 "For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
And over it the sherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly."


I do not see your point for those quotes in relation to what you quoted from me (?) Could you elaborate further? Try to explain why the two are at odds or tied in. Thanks
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/06/14 05:32 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
If so, then how do the Seals, plagues, etc. relate to the feasts?


I think much of the subjects will be our study for the eternity in heaven.
However, the Seven Trumpets of the warning for the plagues have correlations which I have already shared in the forum discussion.

We are told to hear the voice of the trumpet (Rev 1:10) as it continues to leading us by the Holy Spirit. Notice, in Rev 4:1-2, 'which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;….And immediately I was in the spirit….'

The Seven Trumpets are not the events but the sound of the warnings for the Plagues. May the Holy Spirit guide and help us to understand.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/06/14 04:49 PM

The SDA Church, through the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White), believes the Trumpets have a historical application.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/07/14 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland
If so, then how do the Seals, plagues, etc. relate to the feasts?


I think much of the subjects will be our study for the eternity in heaven.
However, the Seven Trumpets of the warning for the plagues have correlations which I have already shared in the forum discussion.

We are told to hear the voice of the trumpet (Rev 1:10) as it continues to leading us by the Holy Spirit. Notice, in Rev 4:1-2, 'which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;….And immediately I was in the spirit….'

The Seven Trumpets are not the events but the sound of the warnings for the Plagues. May the Holy Spirit guide and help us to understand.
Do you realize how your dismissal comes across?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/07/14 02:53 AM

Her comments sound fine to me.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/10/14 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The SDA Church, through the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White), believes the Trumpets have a historical application.


I don't think that the Seventh Day Adventist Church has never had an official position on the SevenTrumpets.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/10/14 05:10 AM

The correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues apparently indicate cause and effect.
The 7 TRUMPET-----------------The 7 PLAGUE
Upon the earth ------------------Upon the earth
Upon the sea--------------------Upon the sea
Upon the fresh water------------- Upon the fresh water
Upon the heavenly bodies---------Upon the sun
The star that fell from heaven------Upon the seat of the beast
Fire,smoke,brimstone------------- Upon the three identities
Now become the kingdom of God---It is done

It becomes more clear of the evidence in their correlation if we examine all the series of the seven.


7th Plague ==>> 7th Seal ==>> 7th Church ==>> 7th Trumpet
It is done------God's judgment---lukewarm church---The kingdom is Christ's
------------- has completed------------------------------------------
Voices,thun.,---half hour of------niether cold or----temple of God opened,
lightn.,hail,------silence-----------hot---------lightn.,voice,thun.,
earthquake,---calm before the storm--------------earthquake,great hail

The beginning and the ending of the Advent Movement are depicted in the series of the Sixth.

6th Church-------- 6th Seal------ 6th Plague-------- 6th Trumpet
Opens no one---- call upon the----upon the great----Loose the angels can shut--------mountains, rocks-- river Euphrates---in the Euphrates

Advent Move---The Day of the LORD--The kings of the--The probation end
ment---------the great day of wrath---- East come----no more mercy



The beginning and the ending of the Papacy are depicted in the 5th of the Seven series.


5th Trumpet------5th Plague----- 5th Church-------- 5th Seal
The fallen star----The seat of the---Say alive but dead--The blood under the altar
Satan brings------beast darkened---Reformation Era----The martyrs cry out
the beast out of ----------------------------------------------------
the bottomless pit---------------------------------------------------

The papacy originated from the fallen star. The seat of the beast portrays the Papacy which was darkened by the reason of the smoke. They desire to die but death shall flee from them. The two witnesses(the Word of God) cause them torment (Rev 11:10). The Papacy snatched the prayers of saints that depicted by the smoke(Rev 5:8). Thus, they deserve the wrath of God by the smoke (Rev 9:17,18).

The beginning and the ending of the Sun worship are depicted in the each 4th of the Sevens (Plague, Seal, Church, Trumpet).

4th Plague---- ----4th Seal------ 4th Church-------- 4th Trumpet
Rev 16:8-9--------Rev 6:7-8---- Rev 2:20---------- Rev 8:12

Sun scorching-----The Dark Ages--Jezebel brought-----heavenly bodies
global warming---killed with sword,---sun worship-----darkened(troubled)

The consequence of the Sun worship brought the plague that cause the sun to scorch hot. Even though plague falls, the wicked do blaspheme the name of God which is written in the 4th commandment. The 4th of the seven series has very much relevancy.

The first three plagues are poured upon the earth, sea, and the rivers and fountains of water which connected to the first three trumpets.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/10/14 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Her comments sound fine to me.
I agree with the statement that much of the subjects will be our study for the eternity in heaven. But I had asked her to support that trumpets are related to the feasts and as to why trumpets, which are also used not as warning but as a war cry, should be used as a warning here. Her casual dismissal turns it into a personal opinion which she does not support.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/10/14 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The SDA Church, through the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White), believes the Trumpets have a historical application.
Ellen White believes the Trumpets have a future application.

Such as, Trumpet after trumpet will sound.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/10/14 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues apparently indicate cause and effect.
The 7 TRUMPET-----------------The 7 PLAGUE

I would agree that trumpets and plagues reveal the cause and effect. But that one explains the other. Not meaning long periods of time have elapsed.

Karen, are you familiar with the
Code:
 [code] 
tag? Your post seems ... hard to read and follow to me and maybe that's why I'm not understanding. Maybe this tag will help you accomplish your formatting you're attempting.

Code:
The 7 TRUMPET--------------------The 7 PLAGUE
Upon the earth ------------------Upon the earth
Upon the sea---------------------Upon the sea
Upon the fresh water             Upon the fresh water
Upon the heavenly bodies         Upon the sun
The star that fell from heaven   Upon the seat of the beast
...
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The SDA Church, through the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White), believes the Trumpets have a historical application.


Amen,
The confusion of disregarding the historicist interpretation are great!

Of course it opens the door to a lot of imagination and makes prophecy a very uncertain thing, anyone can then apply them to anything that they want to promote.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 12:12 AM

Yes, the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary is a very important part of Revelation.

The first half of the book deals with Christ's work in the HOLY Place and leads into the work in the Most Holy Place.

The second half of the book deals with Christ's work in the Most Holy Place and leads into the restoration of all things.

The heavenly work and what is happening upon earth is co-mingled as the great controversy between Christ and satan unfolds.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 12:22 AM

The “Jewish feasts” are a key in understanding Revelation.

Importance of the PASSOVER in Revelation:

Passover and the days connected with it represented Christ’s work in the “outer court” or His work upon earth. They are absolutely crucial to the events that follow in the heavenly sanctuary.

When John received the Revelation of Jesus Christ, there on Patmos, these events were already fulfilled. Christ’s death and resurrection were completed. Now Christ’s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary was revealed. Let’s just see how important the fulfilled Passover events are in Revelation.

In the first chapter it identifies Jesus as the fulfilment of the “spring festivals”. He is the one who died, rose and washed us from our sins in his own blood. (1:5) He is the one who lives and was dead, and lives forever more and has the keys to release people from sin and death. (1:17,18)

He is declared worthy to officiate in the sanctuary and receive honor and power, because He is the Lamb slain and He redeemed us to God by His blood. (5:6,9,12)

It is because of Christ’s death that people can come out of tribulation with white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. (7:14)

The Book of Life, in which the names of the redeemed from earth are written, is possible only because the Lamb was slain and rose again. (13:8) Thus it is called "The Lamb's book of life!"

THE FEAST OF PENTICOST

Christ’s first work is to light the lampstands! Notice again the seven lampstands in Revelation 4, this time they are referred to as seven spirits. "Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Remember the consternation - is anyone worthy? Before His ascension Jesus told the disciples to wait for the Promise of the Holy Spirit which would come upon them. And they would be witnesses "to the end of the earth". (Acts 1:4-8)

When Christ was accepted as the "ONE" worthy to begin the work in the sanctuary, He sent out His Holy Spirit to His messengers on earth.

Compare this with Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2.32-33 "This Jesus has God raised up, and has now exalted by His right hand, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Revelation 4 and 5 show Christ being exalted in heaven, His sacrifice declared worthy and acceptable, the work of the sanctuary begun, and THE HOLY SPIRIT given to the church upon earth. The day of Pentecost marked the opening of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. The first phase of His Priestly ministry had begun in the Holy Place.

Read also
Acts of Apostals page 38.003

But this thread is about trumpets so let's skip ahead to the trumpets
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 12:26 AM

THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS

This feast was observed on the first day of the seventh month.
Now the first day of every month was begun with the blowing of trumpets and special ceremonies. So why make special mention of the blowing of trumpets on the first day of the seventh month?

It was important because this was the seventh month, and the trumpets were announcing that this was the month for the Day of Atonement and all were to consecrate themselves to the Lord in preparation for this solemn day.

It is interesting that seven months pass. Each beginning with a trumpet blast. On the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet blast, announcing the day of atonement.

Are any bells ringing in our minds? Is anything in the Bible corresponding with this in our minds?

Revelation.
There we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, not all together . And when the seventh trumpet blows, in Revelation chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
The “Jewish feasts” are a key in understanding Revelation.

Importance of the PASSOVER in Revelation:

Passover and the days connected with it represented Christ’s work in the “outer court” or His work upon earth. They are absolutely crucial to the events that follow in the heavenly sanctuary.

When John received the Revelation of Jesus Christ, there on Patmos, these events were already fulfilled. Christ’s death and resurrection were completed. Now Christ’s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary was revealed. Let’s just see how important the fulfilled Passover events are in Revelation.

In the first chapter it identifies Jesus as the fulfilment of the “spring festivals”. He is the one who died, rose and washed us from our sins in his own blood. (1:5) He is the one who lives and was dead, and lives forever more and has the keys to release people from sin and death. (1:17,18)

He is declared worthy to officiate in the sanctuary and receive honor and power, because He is the Lamb slain and He redeemed us to God by His blood. (5:6,9,12)

It is because of Christ’s death that people can come out of tribulation with white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. (7:14)

The Book of Life, in which the names of the redeemed from earth are written, is possible only because the Lamb was slain and rose again. (13:8) Thus it is called "The Lamb's book of life!"

THE FEAST OF PENTICOST

Christ’s first work is to light the lampstands! Notice again the seven lampstands in Revelation 4, this time they are referred to as seven spirits. "Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Remember the consternation - is anyone worthy? Before His ascension Jesus told the disciples to wait for the Promise of the Holy Spirit which would come upon them. And they would be witnesses "to the end of the earth". (Acts 1:4-8)

When Christ was accepted as the "ONE" worthy to begin the work in the sanctuary, He sent out His Holy Spirit to His messengers on earth.

Compare this with Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2.32-33 "This Jesus has God raised up, and has now exalted by His right hand, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Revelation 4 and 5 show Christ being exalted in heaven, His sacrifice declared worthy and acceptable, the work of the sanctuary begun, and THE HOLY SPIRIT given to the church upon earth. The day of Pentecost marked the opening of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. The first phase of His Priestly ministry had begun in the Holy Place.

Read also
Acts of Apostals page 38.003

But this thread is about trumpets so let's skip ahead to the trumpets




Thanks, Dedication!
Your post may answer Kland's questions about the application of the Feasts to the seven churches, and seals.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS

This feast was observed on the first day of the seventh month.
Now the first day of every month was begun with the blowing of trumpets and special ceremonies. So why make special mention of the blowing of trumpets on the first day of the seventh month?

It was important because this was the seventh month, and the trumpets were announcing that this was the month for the Day of Atonement and all were to consecrate themselves to the Lord in preparation for this solemn day.

It is interesting that seven months pass. Each beginning with a trumpet blast. On the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet blast, announcing the day of atonement.

Are any bells ringing in our minds? Is anything in the Bible corresponding with this in our minds?

Revelation.
There we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, not all together . And when the seventh trumpet blows, in Revelation chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.

Do you recall “a great voice, as of a trumpet” in Rev. Chap. 1? Like the sound of trumpets directed the movement of the Israelites, the Word of God still guides us in our journey to heavenly Canaan. The trumpet sound as of the Holy Spirit talking that reveals Jesus Christ in Chap. 4-5, which is the introduction to the Seven Seals. The final blast of the Seven Trumpets, which is the allusion of the feast trumpet prior to the Day of Atonement and likened to the blast of trumpets in the collapse of Jericho, will collapse the Babylon the great city prior to entering the heavenly Canaan.
Then the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ!

Therefore, I would say that each began with a trumpet blast in the Christian era has been portrayed as the ancient Israel has observed. Finally the Seven Trumpets approach simultaneously as the feast of trumpet days prior to the Day of Atonement to announce the end of probation in the Anti-typical Day of Atonement, which culminate the Seven Plagues. Thus, it is appropriate to interpret the Seven Trumpets as of the warnings for the Seven Plagues.

The Seventh Trumpet is announcing the kingdom of this world became the kingdom of Christ, which is fortelling the 'It is done' in the Seventh Plague. The Seven Trumpets could not be literal events in the earth because the scene appeared after the Seventh Seal has opened. When all things already completed in the seventh seal what is that for if we were to interpret as the events?

It is so appropriate to interpret the Seven Trumpets as the warnings for the coming Plagues as we realize in the foreknowledge to tell the world. We are also told that while the seven trumpets are sounding, the intercession of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary still exists. The bowl of the ashes not casted down yet, you know.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The SDA Church, through the Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White), believes the Trumpets have a historical application.


Amen,
The confusion of disregarding the historicist interpretation are great!

Of course it opens the door to a lot of imagination and makes prophecy a very uncertain thing, anyone can then apply them to anything that they want to promote.

I believe you are in confusion over seeing a difference between historical and historicist.

Historical is past history.

Historicist is applying prophecy to history, whether past, present, or future. That is, in sequential order. As opposed to picking and lifting things here and there and applying "them to anything that they want to promote". Whether it being picking things out of the future and applying them to the past, or picking things out of the past and applying them to the future.

But Ellen White applies the trumpets to the future.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/14 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Yes, the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary is a very important part of Revelation.

The first half of the book deals with Christ's work in the HOLY Place and leads into the work in the Most Holy Place.

The second half of the book deals with Christ's work in the Most Holy Place and leads into the restoration of all things.

The heavenly work and what is happening upon earth is co-mingled as the great controversy between Christ and satan unfolds.
Interesting thought. But is it really true? In what way is the sealing of the 144K work of the Holy Place? Or in what way is the people crying for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the baby sheep the work of the Holy Place? Maybe you can describe the casting down of the "Golden" censer relating to the Holy Place work. And the 2 witnesses being beheld in the sky, which Ellen white describes seeing the 10 commandments scribed as with a pen of fire, along with the great earthquake being work in the Holy Place.

Then, how the woman being with child is work of the Most Holy Place and making war with the remnant of her seed? Then there's the beast rising out of the sea, and the one out of the earth, and the 5th head receiving the deadly wound, etc.

I think not. I do not see how you can take overlapping parts and separate them into Holy Place / Most Holy Place. That's not how Revelation is structured.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/12/14 04:20 AM

Sorry, I cannot figure out how to use code frown
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/12/14 06:45 PM

Type the square bracket "[" then the word "code" then the closing bracket "]" and what you want after that. At the end of your formatted text, type "[" then "/" and then "code" and then "]".


Like this (without the spaces)
[ code ]formated text[ /code ]
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/12/14 06:52 PM

Nu 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

Nu 31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

Jer 4:19 ¶ My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.


Trumpets are used as a sign of war, of it being too late. Why not in Revelation?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/13/14 05:14 AM

{code}The correlation between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues apparently indicate cause and effect.
The 7 TRUMPET-----------------The 7 PLAGUE
Upon the earth ------------------Upon the earth
Upon the sea--------------------Upon the sea
Upon the fresh water------------- Upon the fresh water
Upon the heavenly bodies---------Upon the sun
The star that fell from heaven------Upon the seat of the beast
Fire,smoke,brimstone------------- Upon the three identities
Now become the kingdom of God---It is done

It becomes more clear of the evidence in their correlation if we examine all the series of the seven.


7th Plague ==>> 7th Seal ==>> 7th Church ==>> 7th Trumpet
It is done------God's judgment---lukewarm church---The kingdom is Christ's
------------- has completed------------------------------------------
Voices,thun.,---half hour of------niether cold or----temple of God opened,
lightn.,hail,------silence-----------hot-----------lightn.,voice,thun.,
earthquake,---calm before the storm---------------earthquake,great hail

The beginning and the ending of the Advent Movement are depicted in the series of the Sixth.

6th Church-------- 6th Seal------ 6th Plague-------- 6th Trumpet
Opens no one---- call upon the----upon the great----Loose the angels
can shut--------mountains, rocks-- river Euphrates---in the Euphrates

Advent Move---The Day of the LORD--The kings of the--The probation end
ment---------the great day of wrath---- East come----no more mercy



The beginning and the ending of the Papacy are depicted in the 5th of the Seven series.


5th Trumpet------5th Plague----- 5th Church-------- 5th Seal
The fallen star----The seat of the---Say alive but dead--The blood under the altar
Satan brings------beast darkened---Reformation Era----The martyrs cry out
the beast out of
the bottomless pit

The papacy originated from the fallen star. The seat of the beast portrays the Papacy which was darkened by the reason of the smoke. They desire to die but death shall flee from them. The two witnesses(the Word of God) cause them torment (Rev 11:10). The Papacy snatched the prayers of saints that depicted by the smoke(Rev 5:8). Thus, they deserve the wrath of God by the smoke (Rev 9:17,18).

The beginning and the ending of the Sun worship are depicted in the each 4th of the Sevens (Plague, Seal, Church, Trumpet).

[b]4th Plague---- ----4th Seal------ 4th Church-------- 4th Trumpet
Rev 16:8-9--------Rev 6:7-8---- Rev 2:20---------- Rev 8:12

Sun scorching-----The Dark Ages--Jezebel brought-----heavenly bodies
global warming---killed with sword,---sun worship-----darkened(troubled)

The consequence of the Sun worship brought the plague that cause the sun to scorch hot. Even though plague falls, the wicked do blaspheme the name of God which is written in the 4th commandment. The 4th of the seven series has very much relevancy.

The first three plagues are poured upon the earth, sea, and the rivers and fountains of water which connected to the first three trumpets.{code/}
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/13/14 05:58 AM

{code}The Seventh Seal contains the Seven Trumpets in the structure of the Book of Revelation
The 7 Seals-------------------Events of the 7 seals
First seal : White horse ------conquering the world with gospel
Second seal : Red horse -----persecution
Third seal : Black horse ----- compromising
Fourth seal : Pale horse –-----Dark Ages
Fifth seal : Cry of martyrs----Reformation
---------------under the altar
Sixth seal: Heavenly signs----for Jesus' Second Coming
Seventh seal : Silence in heaven => Seven Trumpets with introductory sanctuary vision (Rev 8:2-5)
---------------------------1st Trees and grass (depict people) injured
---------------------------2nd Sea injured (ocean pollution)
---------------------------3rd Rivers injured (drinking water pollution)
---------------------------4th Heavenly catastrophes
---------------------------5th First woe
---------------------------6th Second woe
---------------------------7th Third woe



In each of the major series of “sevens”—the seals, trumpets, and bowls—we notice that there always appears to be an inserted pause between the 6th and 7th of each series. These pauses are to emphasize and amplify the importance of the messages.

The pattern of pauses between 6th and 7th seals, trumpets, and plagues

6th----------------*Pauses----------------------7th

6th seal------Chap.7 (Sealing of 144,000)--------------7th seal
6th Trumpet----Chap. 10 to 11:14 (Advent Movement)------7th Trumpet
6th Plague------Chap. 16:15 (Blessed; watches/ keeps------7th Plague
his garments)
* These interludes or pauses are added by amplifying the messages.

Sixth seal => pause (Chap. 7:sealing of 144,000) => 7th seal
6th Trumpet => pause (Chap. 10 to 11:14) => 7th Trumpet
Advent Movement
6th Plague => Pause (Chap. 16:15) => 7th Plague
Blessed;watchers/keepers

There is a pattern that is very striking. We have, first, six seals opened; then a pause, which is a symbolic church militant of 144,000, sealed of God in chapter seven.
In chapter eight, the seventh seal is opened, and the book as a whole is open to view. The seventh seal must be opened in order to see the seven trumpets in the structure of the book of Revelation. The silence indicates a calm before the storm.

There is again a pause portion after the first six trumpets are sounded that is chapters ten and eleven to verse fourteen; the prophecy of the Advent Movement.

In chapter fifteen and sixteen, we have the vials, or the bowls, of the wrath of God; and once more, you will notice, we have the same structure as the seals and trumpets. We have six bowls, and then a pause that is only one verse (Chap. 16:15).
{/code}
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/14/14 01:44 AM


Massive deaths in prophecy

----------people faint----Luke 21:26---indicate general death

In the first to sixth trumpets;
1st---1/3 trees/green grass burnt up--Rev. 8:7---1/3 of more general deaths
2nd---1/3 sea became blood--Rev. 8:8--1/3 of some more general deaths
3rd---rivers, fountains--------Rev. 8:10--death produced in the greater scale
4th---Heavenly bodies affected--Rev. 8:12----no mention of death
5th---seek death
-----Rev. 9:6-----spiritual torments; no death
6th---1/3 of men killed by the fire, the smoke, and the brimstone
-----Rev. 9:18-20-------1/3 killed by these plague(fire,smoke,brimstone)
----The remainders are the murderers,fornictors, and thefts-- ------Rev. 9:21---------
They are the most wicked men alive prior to the great and mighty earthquake.
Rev 11:13 may indicate the most wicked(?);the seven thousand.

Earthquakes: For the saints => produce resurrection
For the wicked => produce deaths
The first resurrection =>brings life eternal
The second resurrection =>brings death of condemnation


Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/14/14 07:20 PM

I guess that didn't help much.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/16/14 03:11 PM

6th trumpet---1/3 of men killed by the fire, the smoke, and the brimstone---
Rev. 9:18-20---1/3 killed by these plagues(fire,smoke,brimstone)

The third angel's message has striking parallels with this 6th trumpet of warning.

Rev 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup ofhis indignation; and he shall be tormented with FIRE and BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the SMOKE of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

The sixth trumpet is the warning of the wrath of God, which is the sixth plague.
The four angels were loosed by the river Euphrates and the sixth vial of the wrath of God poured upon the river Euphrates. The fire, the brimstone and the smoke are the weapons aiming toward the dragon(paganism), the beast(Papacy), and the false prophet(Apostated Christian Church).

The number of the army of the horsemen (Rev 9:16) are the Lord's army that follow the white horse (Rev 19:11). Knowing the fact that there never existed that much of the number of the army in the human history, we are not to just interpret them as "many in number". Rev 19:14 told us, "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

When the four angels loose their hold (Rev 7:1, 9:14), immediately-at a point of time, the army of the horsemen are in action to accomplish God's command that comes from the heavenly temple. Chirst and the armies of heaven will bring the battle of the Armageddon to a close. This is the second woe!

God's plan is that the evil destroys the evil. The drying up of the waters of Euphrates refers to the withdrawal of human support (Rev 17:16) from mystical Bablylon in connection with the sixth plague. The sixth trumpet is a foreshadow of the sixth plague.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/17/14 06:44 PM

I guess I thought you were just having trouble formatting it. I'm confused by the purpose of intent of the varying numbers of dashes after various sometimes seemingly unconnected and unrelated words.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/19/14 08:48 AM

How to use CODE

Firstly you need to use the [] brackets not the {} brackets.
Secondly to end the "CODE" be sure the / sign is in front of /code, not behind it.

Thirdly DO NOT USE ---- dash marks when using code

Place the code command in front of the items to be listed ONLY not in front of the paragraphs or sentences preceding the list.
Line up the lists without using --- dash marks or any dots etc.
Place the /code command at the end of the list (not the end of the post).

Basically it should look like this:

Code:
1st trumpet         Hail and Fire
2nd trumpet         Mountain Falls in Sea
3rd trumpet         Sea creatures die
4th trumpet         Sun and moon darkened


I placed the code word in [ ] just above the 1st trumpet
and the /code in [ ] just after the words moon darkened.
The lists were simply typed out as I wanted to see them without any dash marks.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/19/14 10:57 AM

THE SEALS and THE TRUMPETS run parallel

Code:
1st seal White Horse          1st trumpet Destruction Jerusalem
   Gospel goes forth                 Gospel rejected
2nd seal Red Horse            2nd trumpet Rome Falls
   Persecution by Rome 
3rd seal Black Horse          3rd trumpet star falls (apostasy 
   Compromising doctrines            1/3 waters wormwood
4th seal Pale Horse           4th trumpet darkened light 
   Deadly doctrines                  
5th seal many martyrs         5th trumpet warlike locusts
   Reformation                       distract papacy
6th seal signs in sun moon    6th trumpet army of horsemen
   stars                             the Turks kill 1/3 people


Both interludes take us to the same point in time.
Events at the end of the prophetic time lines.
Code:
SEALS interlude:                 In the sixth trumpet
The earthquake, the falling      1841 Turks lose independence
stars etc. all pointed out       alerted the Bible students 
that the time lines were         to the end of the time lines
nearing their end.
                                 Rev. 10 interlude announces
Rev. 7 depicts the placing       the end of time prophecies 
of the seal on overcomers        focuses on end of 2300 years
which takes place                the 1844 disappointment
during Christ's Most Holy        discover heavenly sanctuary
Priestly ministry.               must prophecy again

                                 Rev. 11  ending of 1260 years
                                 fruits of papal persecution
                                 papacy loses political power





Code:
7th seal silence              7th trumpet 1844 to end
  heaven empty                   Most Holy opened
  Christ coming                  ark of covenant seen
                                 judgment of living and dead
                                 Christ comes 
                                 Christ's reign begins

Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/19/14 05:29 PM

Thank you, dedication. I could both follow and understand what you are saying.

Question: What do you do with Ellen White saying the trumpets have an application in the future?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/20/14 03:32 AM

Thanks, Dedication! I'm still learning how to do the formatting in this forum.

I wish I know how to format my writings in tables. Please help me if you know how.

I used dashes to creat some spaces. My intention was not to confuse anyone but seems like I did anyway frown
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/20/14 03:45 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
If so, then how do the Seals, plagues, etc. relate to the feasts?


Quote:
"All the ceremonies of the feast were types of the work of Christ"-DA 77.1


The Seven Trumpets are for God's people to prepare for the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. I believe that these messages should have all been blown ever since 1844 when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in heaven.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/20/14 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
"The altar's being in the holy apartment of the sanctuary at the sounding of the sixth trumpet, proves that the trumpet sounded before the Most Holy apartment was opened for use. For had it been in use, the "voice" would necessarily have come from therein, where the throne is. Hence, the sounding of this trumpet had to take place before the door of the Most Holy was opened and the throne occupied."-poster: Godsloveandlaw


We must consider these Scripture verses:
Quote:

Heb. 9:8 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all …."
Heb 9:2-5 "For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
And over it the sherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly."



According to the book of Hebrews, the altar of incense is considered as a furniture of the Most Holy Place.
Quote:
Heb 9:3-4 "And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had man'-na, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Therefore, a voice come from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God in the sixth trumpet should not be interpreted as only applicable to the holy place. The horns in the sanctuary portray mercy of God which you may find the allusion from the story of Ad-o-ni'-jah.
Quote:
1King 1:50-51 "And Ad-o-ni'-jah feared because of Solomon, and arose, and went, and caught hold on the horns of the altar. And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Ad-o-ni'-jah feareth king Solomon; for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword."

The command of the sixth trumpet is to 'loose the four angels' which they were holding the four winds of the earth in Rev 7:1. The four angels were commanded not to hurt until the sealing is completed (Rev 7:3).
At a point of time, the four angels will loose their hold which will occur suddenly. It will not take 391 years to obey the command of God.
The river of the Euphrates indicates a borderline of the edge.
Quote:
Gen 15:18 "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

The heavenly Cannan should be just a step way to enter when the sixth trumpet sound at the river Euphrates.
The number of horsemen of 200 millions indicate the angels of heaven that follow the white horseman, Jesus Christ. They have the powers to plague the wicked with the fire, the smoke and the brimstone. Notice that these are called 'plagues' in Rev 9:20.
The sixth trumpet, as well as all the others, portrays the imminent close of the probation which the remnant of the sealed saints must blow the warnings toward the world.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/21/14 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland
If so, then how do the Seals, plagues, etc. relate to the feasts?


Code:
"All the ceremonies of the feast were types of the work
 of Christ"-DA 77.1 


The Seven Trumpets are for God's people to prepare for the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. I believe that these messages should have all been blown ever since 1844 when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in heaven.

Since we are in the anti-typical day of atonement, you're saying all the trumpets are past history and have no future application?

By the way, you only use the code tags when you want something formatted specifically. If you want verses formatted a certain way, you need to do it before using the code tags. Letting it auto-wrap in the textarea window does not count as "formatting". You would need to hit the enter key where you wish. But why do that for verses? Just use the quote tags.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/24/14 05:16 AM

Unfortunately, the Seven Trumpets have not been blown by the commissioned saints because the message has not been understood correctly. It has been misinterpreted too long.
Therefore, all the seven trumpets have present and future application which is the warnings of the coming seven plagues.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/25/14 08:31 PM

The major misunderstanding in the former understanding was not recognizing who the king of the north and king of the south is in Daniel 11.
James White had it right when he wrote the king of the North in the latter verses of Daniel 11 must be the same as the "feet" in Daniel 2, the horn in Daniel 7 and 8.

The king of the North is the political/religious power north of the Mediterranean.

Thus the king of the South is the political/religious power south of the Mediterranean which any historical map shows to be the Islamic nations.

When that becomes clear --
The trumpets are in agreement with Daniel eleven prophecy.

The struggle for dominion between two political/religious powers in our world in the post-Calvary era is between papal led Christianity, and Islam.

In the end -- neither win, for the dominion belongs to Christ who earned the right to win it back for mankind at Calvary.

At the pre-Advent judgment in Daniel 7 we see Christ being brought before the heavenly court and given the dominion.
Christ (as seen in Rev. 3:5) presents the names of all who overcome. And it is Christ and His redeemed that will (after the 1000 years of Rev. 20) inherit the earth and that dominion and kingdom will last FOREVER!

The trumpets focus in on this struggle of these two political/religious powers striving for dominion through out the "Christian" era, and indeed there will be one last major confrontation which we are sitting on the beginnings of right now -- the king of the north will appear to win and with the strength of the armies of the second beast of Rev. 13 and the 10 horns of the European states, subdue the king of the South, and try to force the whole world into Sunday worshipping unity. And they will use Palestine and Jerusalem as a major trump card to deceive the world into thinking the "antichrist" is being defeated and an earthly kingdom of peace will start (when the opposition is rooted out).

But it won't succeed for it will come to its end, Christ will deliver his people.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/26/14 05:22 AM

I am looking for somebody who can explain 'line upon line; precept upon precept' on the seven trumpets, especially the fifth and sixth trumpets.
How would you explain that the fallen star that has the key of the bottomless pit is, unless the Devil himself? The darkening of the air depicts the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2), which is the Devil himself, causing the obscurity by the reason of the smoke. What could be 'the reason of the smoke'? The smoke is portrayed as the prayers of the saints. Who snatched the prayers of saints that must ascend to the throne of God? Like the Absalom who stole the hearts of the people from his father David, the beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev 17:8, 11:7) snatched the prayers of saints. God has commanded that His people who have the seal of God should not be touched and hurt by their demonic activities, which portrayed in the Rev 9:7-11. Their torments were the five months. This is the torture that they experienced because of the truth preached. Like the two witnesses 'tormented them that dwelt on the earth (Rev. 11:10), the SDA has been preaching the three angels messages five months (150 years from 1863 to 2014), which tormented the Papacy.
The fifth trumpet is depicted a strong delusions from the ‘angel of the bottomless pit’ whose name is Abaddon, or Apollyon.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/26/14 07:49 AM

Fifth trumpet:
THE struggle between truth and error has always been a bitter one. No great light has ever shone upon the earth for which the archenemy has not had a counterfeit. The first four trumpets deal with the Counterfeits brought into Christianity.
The three woes speak of another religious/political group claiming to worship the same God but also being a counterfeit – namely Islam.

THE FALLING STAR


Notice that both have a fallen star.
8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,… the name of the star is called Wormwood

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth


In Revelation 12, it says there was a woman who had twelve stars above her head. These stars represented the leadership of the church. (12 apostles, some say the 12 patriarchs)

Stars represent leadership in the Bible. You can read about Paul’s ship journey in Acts 27 where for fourteen days the stars were obscured and they didn’t know where they were. People depended on literal stars to guide their ships, etc.

The seven stars in Jesus hand in Rev. 1 are called the seven angels or messengers to the seven churches. This is generally understood to refer to the leaders of the seven churches, for John is told to write letters to them, and they of course would read the letters to their congregations.

So a star is a religious leader – possibly even the founder (as the twelve stars of Rev. 12) of a religious movement.
A falling star tends to imply this leader is looked to for truth and has a measure of heavenly truth, but is fallen in grave error.

Thus a falling star fittingly represents the papacy in the first reference, and Mohammed in the second reference. Both are looked to as divine guides of truth in their respective group.

Of course, satan is chief fallen star behind all these counterfeit movements.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/26/14 09:29 AM

9:1-2 To him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

THE KEYS
We know that Jesus holds the keys. He limits the level to which evil can arise. Nothing happens without Jesus giving the key to loosen the forces of evil so they can demonstrate their character.

THE BOTTOMLESS PIT
The bottomless pit refers to dwelling place of evil spirits.

So the founder of the Islamic religion sought truth in a cave. While there he was visited by a mighty angelic being who dictated the Koran to him, and physically man handled him to get him to "recite".
--
THE SMOKE

There arose a smoke out of the pit.
The smoke here cannot represent the prayers of the saints for it arises out of the pit. This is Satan counterfeiting the smoke that is Christ’s censor, it is a counterfeit.

This great smoke of the Bottomless Pit was not accompanied by any light. There was no light. Notice, Satan's unholy smoke came from below. But from those not grounded in truth, it might be difficult to tell the counterfeit from the real.

From his encounters with spiritual forces in a cave near Mecca, Mohammed came forth with a new religion. In opposition to the forms and ceremonies of the numerous worshipers who congregated at Mecca, and to the professed Christians who revered the images of saints and martyrs, the simple principles of the new religious leader called for prayer, fasting, submission to god, and alms. Five times a day, his followers all over the world turn their eyes toward Mecca, and lift their hearts in prayer.

The Bible of the Christians was replaced by the Koran. True, the simple faith and austere practices of the Mohammedans were, to all outward appearances, a reform over the apostasy of the Greek Catholics; but in the rejection of Christ as Savior and Lord, the rapid growth of the Islamic religion darkened the “sun of righteousness”( Mal 4:2) who alone could offer them healing.

THE AIR

The “air” is the carrier of sound, especially of voices and messages (see Rev. 16:17) Thus the air was “darkened” carrying a false message.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/26/14 09:52 AM

We have discussed verses 1 and 2 line by line in the previous posts, now we come to verse three:

Quote:
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


The locust don't come out of the bottomless pit.
They come out of the smoke -- they result from the counterfeit teachings that obstructed Christ the "sun of righteousness".

Mohammedanism united the scattered tribes, and sent them forth as the conquerors of nations.
When Mohammed first advocated his doctrine, he gained adherents by the power of argument; but this process soon became too slow for his ambition, and arms were taken to defend and extend the territory of the new religion. In the course of a few years, Persia, Syria, Egypt, Africa and Spain had been conquered by Saracen arms.
It was in 632 that Caled, the lieutenant of the first caliph, began the conquest of Persia. His efforts were crowned with victory. To every man was offered death, or the acceptance of the Mohammedan doctrine. With the sword above their heads, multitudes thanked God for Mohammed, His prophet.

Like a horde of locusts they swept across the middle east, through Egypt, across Northern Africa and up into Spain and even threatening France.
Unlike the Christian apostles who swiftly carried the gospel all over the known world by the Power of the Holy Spirit. The Mohammedans swiftly carried their religion by the power of conquest and the sword.

Quote:
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;


The caliph Abubeker instructed the chiefs of the army as follows:

"When you fight the battles of the Lord, acquit yourselves like men, without turning your backs; but let not your victory be stained with the blood of women or children. Destroy no palm trees, nor burn any fields of corn. Cut down no fruit trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat.


Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/27/14 08:41 AM

Continuing verse 4

Quote:
"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


God plans from eternity; and while Satan worked hard for the utter destruction of all things, yet the guiding hand of Jehovah still controlled.

Apostolic Christians were not considered "an enemy" at first by the Muslims. Many Christians had fled from the persecutions of the Eastern Christian regime, and found sanctuary in desolate places as well as in the lands of the Arabs. Many welcomed the Saracens at first since they had been oppressed under Catholic religion.

The Muslim warriors were told to "let them alone". But this was not the case with monks who wore the tonsure or the rest of the Catholic world.
It would seem that God put a spirit of gentleness into the hearts of these warriors toward those Christians, who, in the solitudes of Syria, were keeping the law of God; but the tonsured priests and monks were to be slain without mercy, unless they accepted the faith of Mohammed and paid tribute.

Later, after the first crusade, things would change as the Muslims would then consider all Christians in a negative light
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/28/14 08:33 AM


Quote:
9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he strikes a man.
9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

When we look at Daniel 7 we see a key word "dominion".
Mankind seeks to exert dominion over others, and when that dominion comes with the sword and violence it indeed is oppressive -- a torment. Nations arise and lay waste to the homes and cities of the former nation so that they can have take over the dominion. When this is linked with religion it becomes even more frightful for not only are the temporal lives affected but the dominating power seeks to control the spiritual life as well.

In the years previous to the rise of Islam, the Christian powers had claimed just such a dominion over the souls of people, in both the west and in the east, persecution of those who did not bow to legislated doctrines was carried out, and now God allowed another religious/political power to rise up against the Christianity of the Roman Empire.

In the first "woe" Islam is not allowed to destroy the "Christian" centers of power, only to torment them. The Saracens wanted to have dominion especially over Constantinople the capital of Christianity in the east, and the seat of the eastern Empire. Time after time they attacked and besieged the city, usually overrunning the neighboring villages in the process. But they never succeeded.

Nor was the west exempt. The Muslim armies had conquered northern Africa, entered up into Spain and were advancing into France, when on June 9, 721, at what is now known as the Battle of Toulouse, they were defeated by Charles Martel's army, and their invasion stopped. Many believe this was divine intervention; -- the swarming armies of locusts were not allowed to "kill" the apostate Christian empire.

The Saracen's first siege of Constantinople (which lasted seven years) began in the year AD 673, the last attack in AD 823, that's 150 years.

The symbolism of the locusts arising from the smoke of false doctrine, while it does depict demonic origin, still relates to literal circumstances in the history of the Christian church. Anyone who studied history knows this was a terrible time for the eastern "Christian" empire. These attacks caused much physical, emotional, and spiritual anguish over the whole empire, removing the joy of living from the people.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/28/14 09:06 AM

Quote:
9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.


HORSES
Here the Revelator explains the locusts -- They were an army of horse men equipped for battle.
Arabia is considered to be the home of the horse. A very strong bond is usually formed between rider and horse, much more so than in our culture where horses are driven by whips and spurs.

HAIR AND CROWNS
These men had long hair and wore turbans upon their heads. The turbans were usually yellow. It was a symbol of their religion -- "Make a point" says their prophet, "of wearing turbans, because it is the way of angels."

TEETH AS A LION
Ferocious as a lion. In fact Mohammed called his first lieutenant the "lion of god" and his troops as the "lions of god".

BREASTPLATES
In the Koran it indicates that among God's gifts to the Arabs was their coats of mail. They wore defensive armor when they went into battle.

WINGS AS OF MANY HORSES RUNNING
Arabian horses gracefully running at full speed.
Several thousand would make quite a sight and sound.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/28/14 09:49 AM

Quote:
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.


And in their tails is their power (literally, 'authority': (authorized power) to hurt."

The prophets teaching false doctrines are referred to as the "tail" in Isa 9:15

The teachings they had embraced were driving them on to "sting" and hurt. This was their authority vindicating and prompting them.
Five months = 150 years - AD 673 to AD 823 (see verse 5 post)
Quote:

9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit
,

Actually they didn't have a human king or centralized government, it was their religion that gave them unity and sent them on their mission of destruction.

Long after their prophet was gone, the angel that had given him the dictates of the new religion was still guiding his followers (the locusts) that came out of the (smoke) of the false doctrine.


In all of this we see the spiritual battle.
Two religions fighting for dominion over the souls of people.
The beast receives his authority from the dragon.
The locusts received their authority from the "tail" and were guided by the angel of the bottomless pit.

You may think this has no relevance for our time in the "last days" but this battle is not yet over -- there will be one last great battle to achieve dominion over the souls of people.

But remember, -- Christ has won the rights to that dominion. And in the end He will deliver His people.


Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/28/14 04:58 PM

Thanks, Dedication for your effort to expound as detailed in the above.

I say that the Seven Trumpets have an apparent correlation to the Seven Plagues rather than to the Seven Seals.

Code:
 dedication
1st seal White Horse          1st trumpet Destruction Jerusalem
   Gospel goes forth                 Gospel rejected
2nd seal Red Horse            2nd trumpet Rome Falls
   Persecution by Rome 
3rd seal Black Horse          3rd trumpet star falls (apostasy 
   Compromising doctrines            1/3 waters wormwood
4th seal Pale Horse           4th trumpet darkened light 
   Deadly doctrines                  
5th seal many martyrs         5th trumpet warlike locusts
   Reformation                       distract papacy
6th seal signs in sun moon    6th trumpet army of horsemen
   stars                             the Turks kill 1/3 people



Code:
 [b]apparent correlation[/b]
Seven Trumpets                             Seven Plagues
(1st)Upon the earth                        Upon the earth
(2nd)Upon the sea                          Upon the sea
(3rd)Upon the fresh water                  Upon the fresh water
(4th)Upon the heavenly bodies              Upon the sun
(5th)Upon the star that fell from heaven   Upon the seat of the beast
(6th)Warnings for the three identities     Plagues upon the three identities
     (fire, smoke, brimstone)                  (dragon, beast, false prophets)
(7th)Now become the kingdom of God         It is done


Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?"

The Book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan not by the history of the world. It seems that the historical approach is trying to measure the heaven with the span of our hand, which is non measurable.

The introductory vision for the Seven Trumpets portrays that Jesus is ministering
in the heavenly court which is the true tabernacle, the Lord pitched, not man (Heb 8:2).

While Jesus is ministering in the heavenly court, the seven angels STOOD BEFORE GOD with the seven trumpets in their hands (Rev 8:2), which indicate the their readiness to blow the trumpet sounds at the order of God command.

Jesus took the censer and casted it into the earth ( Rev 8:5), which depicts that the close of probation. Then the verse six said, "the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." The commission to the seven angels is
carried out then in their full blast of the seven trumpets.

Remember that the Seven Trumpets have the introductory vision, which is the assurance of Jesus' intercession in the heavenly court while the Seven Trumpets blow its warning sound.

The description of the Seven Trumpets is appeared as though they come after the close of the probation but they are only foretelling what are the Seven Plagues after the probation ends. I believe that's why the correlation between the 7 trumpets and 7 plagues has the obvious manifestation in the comparison.

Jesus Christ is SIGNIFIED in each vision to John in the Book of Revelation. The visions take place in earth or in heaven in the development. The details of the revelation pertain to effects or events that are taking place on earth or heaven as a result-of and corresponding-to the previous events that took place.

This in mind, the silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) indicates that the judgment of God is completed in response to the prayers of God’s people (Rev 8:3-5).

Code:
dedication
7th seal silence              
  heaven empty 
  Christ coming


What has signified in the silence is not that we need to know that the heaven is empty. But the silence portrays that the judgment of God is completed. There is no one in the throne room in heaven voices an objection in the salvation of men. The final sealing in earth is done in Chap. Seven. The heaven is in ominous hush in anticipation of God’s next order. Surly it is a calm before the storm, which is coming in the Seven Plagues.

Who would want to blow the Seven Trumpets of warning sound to the world? I believe that the message of the seven trumpets is the commission to the sealed people of God to prepare the final event of the Second Coming of Jesus.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/29/14 10:52 AM

Karen wrote: I believe that the message of the seven trumpets is the commission to the sealed people of God to prepare the final event of the Second Coming of Jesus.



Once the sealing is complete it's too late to prepare for the Second Coming.
We must do that before the sealing is complete -- it's a prerequisite to being sealed.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 01:23 AM

Karen wrote: "The Book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan not by the history of the world."

I fully agree the book of Revelation should be interpreted by the sanctuary plan.

However, the sanctuary plan deals with the world and it's history. The events listed in the seven trumpets are things that happen on earth, not in heaven.

The first half of Revelation (1-11) focuses mainly on Christ's work in the holy place and corresponds this with events happening on earth. (With leads at the end of each sequence introducing the next phase)


The second half of Revelation (13-18) focuses mainly on Christ's work in the Most Holy Place and corresponds this with events happening on earth. (With introductory leads pointing to the next phase)

The last three chapters (19-21)deal with the execution of judgment upon the world and the restoration of all things.


The Holy Place has three pieces of furniture

Churches --
The Lampstand in the holy place

The oil of the Holy Spirit poured out into the church lampstands, and the gospel goes as love for the truth burns brightly. Christ is trimming the lamps so they can burn bright.
Here is revealed the history of the Christian church in relationship to the candlesticks.
The light grows dim -- the people lose their love for truth and fail to seek the presence of Christ.


THE SEALS
In the earthly sanctuary we see a table of showbread in the holy place. This table had two crowns of gold round the top (See Lev. 25:24,25) signifying two thrones, one within the other.
In Revelation 5 we see "the Lamb" Christ in the midst of the Father's throne.
The seals reflect the showbread ministry.

Christ takes the book of the covenant, His sacrifice making
Him the only one worthy to do so.
He opens the seals and the message of the covenant ratified go out to the world.
Now we see the history of the church in relationship with the covenant message. (Christ our Righteousness) The covenant message is darkened and without it there is only "destruction and death". But the last seals point us to Christ and his covenant promises will come to pass!


THE TRUMPETS

The third piece of furniture in the Holy Place is the Altar of Incense and that is where we find Christ standing as the trumpets are introduced.

The Trumpets deal with Christ's ministry at the altar of incense in the holy Place.
The incense not only signifies the prayers of saints, it signifies Christ's merits on our behalf rising up before the Father shielding us from the just retribution we as sinners, deserve.

Then we see the history of the world in relationship to the altar of incense. We see two "stars" -- powerful leaders of religious/political movements both claiming to serve the true God, yet each trying to force people to believe they have the answers to spiritual questions and a human controlled gate to heaven.

Roman priests carry incense and use them as they approach the altar for the mass.
Muslims burn incense to obtain merit and so the "angels and spirits will hear" them. Though it's not obligatory for them.

The trumpets show the battle of these two major religions seeking to control the lives and souls or the people.
Two major confrontations have already occurred (5th and 6th woe) the third one (also described in Daniel 11:40-45) is right upon us.
It takes place after the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen -- meaning it takes place while Christ is in the Most Holy Place--

The battle will be intense as both seek the dominion, the papal "king" will come out on top and it will SEEM like he has all the answers for world peace, and to oppose him will place that person in the vilest of contempt.

Indeed -- we must keep our minds filled with the sanctuary truth for the counterfeit will rise to awesome strength of deceptive "answers" to humanities needs.

But the seventh trumpet makes it clear who the real winner will be. Christ obtains the dominion! And all heaven rejoices! He will deliver his people.


Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Once the sealing is complete it's too late to prepare for the Second Coming.
We must do that before the sealing is complete -- it's a prerequisite to being sealed.


Isa. 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 05:01 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Fifth trumpet:
The three woes speak of another religious/political group claiming to worship the same God but also being a counterfeit – namely Islam.


Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

What does eagle signify for the three woes? Do you read that the three woes pertain 'to the inhabiters of the earth' rather than to the 'namely Islam'?
Rev 12:12 "…Woe to the inhabiters of the earth'…for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Bible interpretes itself. The same phrases should be interpreted as same as we read in the Book of Revelation. The inhabiters of the earth mean the global involvement, not only Islam. The three woes are urgent messages, more so than the first four trumpets, because it comes in the last three trumpets impacting the whole world.

Quote:

In Revelation 12, it says there was a woman who had twelve stars above her head. These stars represented the leadership of the church. (12 apostles, some say the 12 patriarchs)
posted by Dedication

Stars may represent leadership in the Bible. However, the fallen star (Rev 9:1) represents the Devil. Luke 10:18 "and he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".



Quote:
So a star is a religious leader – possibly even the founder (as the twelve stars of Rev. 12) of a religious movement.
A falling star tends to imply this leader is looked to for truth and has a measure of heavenly truth, but is fallen in grave error.

Thus a falling star fittingly represents the papacy in the first reference, and Mohammed in the second reference. Both are looked to as divine guides of truth in their respective group.
posted by Dedication

The fallen star works through the papacy which indicated by a 'beast ascends out of the bottomless pit(Rev 11:7 and 17:8) but the Satan has the bottomless key to open.

Quote:
Of course, satan is chief fallen star behind all these counterfeit movements.
posted by Dedication

Yes, we can not interprete the fifth trumpet(the first woe) as the Islamic movements but it is about the demonic activities. That's why it is the urgent message and an eagle flying in the midst of heaven. The application should be to the whole world; the inhabiters of the earth.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: dedication
Once the sealing is complete it's too late to prepare for the Second Coming.
We must do that before the sealing is complete -- it's a prerequisite to being sealed.


Isa. 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."



When the sealing is completed probation closes --
There is no second chance to prepare.

No -- your thoughts are not the Lord's thoughts, if you are suggesting there is still time to prepare after the sealing is completed.

Hebrews 4:7 "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

For we do not want to be in the crowd that says:

Jere. 8:20 "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: dedication

THE struggle between truth and error has always been a bitter one. No great light has ever shone upon the earth for which the arch-enemy has not had a counterfeit. The first four trumpets deal with the Counterfeits brought into Christianity.

The three woes speak of another religious/political group claiming to worship the same God but also being a counterfeit – namely Islam.


Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

What does eagle signify for the three woes? Do you read that the three woes pertain 'to the inhabiters of the earth' rather than to the 'namely Islam'?


The battle for the souls of the people, between the Papal lead Christians and the Islamic nations do pertain 'to the "inhabiters" of the earth!


The eagle/vulture imagery can be seen all through the OT when prophets foretold punishment coming upon a nation or people.

The "eagle" is announcing that punishment is coming upon the papal lead Christian world that had forsaken her true mission, despised God's covenant, and was persecuting the true followers of God.

Just like in the OT times --

Hosea 8:1-4,7 "Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law. Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee.
Yet, Israel has cast off good: the enemy shall pursue him... they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.



The word "woe" means trouble is coming--
Isaiah 3:9 "Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves."
3:11 "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


In Matt. 23 woes were pronounced on the scribes and Pharisees because they too had forsaken God's covenant and were leading people to away from the source of salvation.

The "woe" trumpets are pronouncing WOE on the apostate Christian world, and the Mohammadians were the instruments bringing that woe upon the Christian world.


Originally Posted By: Karen
Bible interpretes itself. The same phrases should be interpreted as same as we read in the Book of Revelation. The inhabiters of the earth mean the global involvement, not only Islam.


I don't think you understand the impact Islam had on the whole Christian world at that time. Nor do people in our countries seem to understand the control over the spiritual life both the papal priests and the Moslems had over the people.

If you study prophecy -- like the prophecies of Daniel -- you should know that Satan works through nations -- Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome in ancient history, and in the Christian era Satan has taken over the powerful groups that profess to worship the one true God -- Papal led Christianity and Islamics.


Originally Posted By: Karen
The three woes are urgent messages, more so than the first four trumpets, because it comes in the last three trumpets impacting the whole world.


Indeed it is an urgent message --

The three woes announce three major confrontation between these powers. The first confrontation I outlined. The second (6th trumpet) was far worse than the first.

Then we have the apparent "dying" of both powers in the political arena in the late 1700's and early 1800's, this time is depicted in the chapters between the 6th and 7th trumpet. The end of the prophetic time lines, and the emergence of the commandment keeping church with the endtime prophetic message.

Right now -- in 2014, we are sitting on the edge of the last great and terrible third and last confrontation when these powers will seek to control the souls and bodies of all people -- and yes, it is impacting the whole world.

Right now Islam (the king of the South) is pushing with terrorizing pressure (Daniel 11:40)
Do a little study on what is going on in the world RIGHT NOW.

The papal led Christian world (king of the north) is going to rise in indignation and with all the arms and fury now at their disposal will put down the King of the South (Daniel 11:40- ) and the Moslem world will follow in "his steps".
But what appears to be a victory will not bring peace -- it will only accelerate "the nations are angry"

What does that mean for the world?
They will see the Islamic leaders (or leader) as the antichrist -- the pope as the great deliver -- Rome will re-establish her dominion and "and all the world [will]wonder after the beast; and they worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worship the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

Yes, satan is behind it all -- he (or one of his demons) not only dictated a "new" religion to the Muslim prophet in that cave, he (or one of his demons) is also appearing as "mary" to crowds of people. The pope has consecrated the whole world to mary and looks to these apparitions for guidance!

That's what those trumpets are all about --
Those two powers that have been seeking to dominate the souls of all people for many centuries.





Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/30/14 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

The eagle/vulture imagery can be seen all through the OT when prophets foretold punishment coming upon a nation or people.

The "eagle" is announcing that punishment is coming upon the papal lead Christian world that had forsaken her true mission, despised God's covenant, and was persecuting the true followers of God.


The heart of God is to save people. He is not all about punishing the wicked.

Whenever an eagle appeared in the Book of Revelation it is about the deliverance of God for His people.

Rev 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

In the OT, the eagle is depicted as God's deliverance for HIs people.

Deut. 32:10-11 "He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:"

My understanding of the Rev 8:13 of the eagle is that the spiritual deception is so great in the message of the three woes, God is assuring His people of His care as the apple of his eye. Also notice that the introduction of the Seven Trumpets is the imagery of Jesus' intercession in heavenly sanctuary which assure us of His care.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/01/14 08:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
How would you explain that the fallen star that has the key of the bottomless pit is, unless the Devil himself?
Actually, it doesn't say fallen star, but "a star fall from heaven". Used in a sense of a verbal action rather than an a past adjective description.

I would agree with some of what dedication said about this. The powers of God are in control, not satan releasing his angels. The bottomless pit is where satan is. He and his angels are released for a time. After the sealing and probation has closed.

For before the trumpets sound, "another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."
A golden censer.
A golden altar.
Before the throne. (which throne? and where?)

"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
After the censer (and/or fire) is cast to the earth, something dramatic happens.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/02/14 02:05 PM

The warnings of the fifth and sixth trumpets imply a solemnity and fearfulness beyond anything of previous forewarning, which the apostate leader is depicted in the third trumpet-a great star who fell from heaven burning like a lamp, and who, falling upon the third part of the rivers and fountains of waters, poisoned them so that men drinking of them died, the waters being made bitter.
Under the fifth trumpet, this leader develops and opens the bottomless pit, using a key.
Christ commits the keys of the kingdom of heaven to His church in Matt. 16:19, “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
From these Scriptures it is clear that a key implies a system of teaching.
Thus, this arch-apostate, by a system of erroneous teaching, opens up the bottomless pit which caused the sun and air darkened by the reason of the smoke of the pit.
Darkening of the sun implies the blotting out, from before the eyes of men or minds, the spiritual sky will be made dark by the false system with which they will be deluded.
It is the strong delusion, that the 2 Thess. 2:11 said, “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:”
The air is particularly Satan’s realm. He is called “the prince of the power of the air.” The darkening of the air implies the control of this realm by satanic agencies.
This coming delusion will spread rapidly and prevail largely at the present time, asserting the divinity of humanity, “Ye shall be as God.”
They will spread like locusts over all the earth, having tremendous power over the minds of men.
This is what the third verse indicates: “And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”
The locust symbolizes the spiritual plague of the last days. The symbol of the locusts is coupled with that of the scorpion, because of the torment these evil teachings eventually bring to those who accept them.
The grass and trees are representing mankind. The locusts have a power to hurt to those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads. They torment the mankind for five months, a torment akin to that of a scorpion when he striketh a man.
The sealed of God will be preserved from the strong delusion under the fifth trumpet of warning of the plague of false teaching.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/02/14 10:46 PM

Quote:
which the apostate leader is depicted in the third trumpet-a great star who fell from heaven burning like a lamp,
Actually I'm saying,

it is not.

Many would disagree with you, but maybe you could show otherwise. Could you show that the star falling from heaven in verse 9:1 indicates the apostate leader?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/03/14 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
which the apostate leader is depicted in the third trumpet-a great star who fell from heaven burning like a lamp,
Actually I'm saying,

it is not.

Many would disagree with you, but maybe you could show otherwise. Could you show that the star falling from heaven in verse 9:1 indicates the apostate leader?


'A star fall from heaven unto the earth' indicate the Satan according to Luke 10:18, "And he said unit them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".

I would say that the apostate leader, namely Papacy, was originated from the Satan.

The fifth plague is poured upon the seat of the beast (the Papacy), which cause the darkness of his kingdom just as the fifth trumpet has warned about the overcast of the darkness of the sun and the air by the Papacy.

The fifth seal indicate the martyrdom cry, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, does thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?', which the Papacy has killed them.

The fifth church indicate that the reformation from the Papacy.

All the fifth of the sevens (churches, seals, trumpets, and plagues) has indication of the Papacy, the apostate leader. Thus, the cause of the fifth plague is of the Papacy.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/03/14 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
which the apostate leader is depicted in the third trumpet-a great star who fell from heaven burning like a lamp,
Actually I'm saying,

it is not.

Many would disagree with you, but maybe you could show otherwise. Could you show that the star falling from heaven in verse 9:1 indicates the apostate leader?


'A star fall from heaven unto the earth' indicate the Satan according to Luke 10:18, "And he said unit them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".

I would say that the apostate leader, namely Papacy, was originated from the Satan.

Re 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

So which other verse should we go with? The one in Luke, or the one in Revelation?

I'm not sure I'm getting my question stated correctly. But it involves how do you decide what it is. Just because you find something doesn't mean something else can't be found which says the opposite. You need to have something that means it rather than incidental evidence.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/04/14 03:16 AM

Isaiah 14:12,15 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!",
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Ezekiel 28:14, 17 "Thou art the anointed cherub that eovereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I kbeheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Daniel 12:10 "….the wise shall understand."
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/04/14 05:39 AM

I don't think there is a question concerning Satan begin cast out of heaven. He was cast out before the creation of this world.
But apparently he still had some access to heaven as we see in the book of Job, where he appears when the "Sons of God" -- the representatives of other worlds-- meet before God.

He was fully "cast down" from heaven at the time of the cross --
There he stood guilty of murdering God. And he knew exactly who it was that he had murdered. But many people still didn't understand.

The texts quoted above show he will be even more fully "cast down" before all people. This will take place after the millennium when satan leads the unsaved in a mighty battle with the purpose of taking God's city, and God reveals the history of grace freely offered but spurned. Everyone will then know the true character of satan, who had presented himself to them as the rightful prince of this world. God "will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee....All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. "


But are the "stars" in Revelation referring to the same thing?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/04/14 06:07 AM

Let's look at every time the word "stars" is used in Revelation.


Rev 1:16
And he (Jesus) had in his right hand seven stars:
Rev. 1:20
The seven stars G792 are the angels (or messengers) of the seven churches:
Rev. 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says he that holds the seven stars...


Since John was to address the letters to the churches to these "angels" or messengers it is generally understood they are the leaders of these churches.

Rev 2:28
And I will give him (the overcomers in Thyatira) the morning star.


Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. G792


Rev 6:13
And the stars G792 of heaven fell unto the earth,

Rev. 8:19
there fell a great star G792 from heaven, burning as it were a lamp

Rev 8:11
And the name of the star G792 is called Wormwood

Rev. 8:12
the third part of the stars; G792 so as the third part of them was darkened

Rev. 9:1 I saw a star G792 fall from heaven unto the earth:

Rev. 12:1 and upon her head (the woman's head) a crown of twelve stars: G792

Rev. 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars G792 of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/04/14 06:39 AM

Who was given the KEY?


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star G792 fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

The key is never given to satan.
God puts restrictions on the demonic world that they are not allowed to pass; they can go so far but no further --- UNLESS they are invited by humans.

That's why its so important never to go to séances or play with those boards that talk back to you, or get involved with any voodoo type stuff, or mystical spiritual formation. That's why the apparitions that call themselves "mary" keep asking for the world to be "consecrated" to her so they can do more "work".

It also is true of the other side -- prayer unlocks the power of heaven in our behalf, we need to ask God to send His angels to protect us, to send His Spirit to fill us.

God gives us the freedom of choice --
both good and evil forces work hard to draw us, and which one wins is our choice.

God is much stronger than Satan, we need to abide with our Savior and Redeemer and then we need not fear, though the trend in the world is to open the door ever wider to evil spirits.

We need to pray more to our Savior asking Him to send His angels to encamp about us and our love ones and neighbors.

So to whom has God given the key?



Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/04/14 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Let's look at every time the word "stars" is used in Revelation.


Rev 1:16
And he (Jesus) had in his right hand seven stars:
Rev. 1:20
The seven stars G792 are the angels (or messengers) of the seven churches:
Rev. 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says he that holds the seven stars...


Since John was to address the letters to the churches to these "angels" or messengers it is generally understood they are the leaders of these churches.
Now that's an interesting thought I hadn't thought of. Could it be that something a leader of one of the churches does which unleashes satan and his angels to wreck havoc?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/05/14 08:21 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

Now that's an interesting thought I hadn't thought of. Could it be that something a leader of one of the churches does which unleashes satan and his angels to wreck havoc?


I read your comment and then reread the list of revelation's "stars" and a connection kind of "jumped out" that I had never seen before.

First -- I see the falling star in the third trumpet as the papal leadership leading the church into apostasy; turning the gospel water of life into wormwood. This would
match your question concerning a leader in the churches which unleashes satan and his angels to wreck havoc.

Secondly -- while the churches were all present in John's day, they also reveal a progression throughout the Christian history. And this progression shows some interesting links.

The third church in Pergamos, shows "Satan's seat" is being established in the place where the church dwells.
It's marking the rise of the papal church.

But what's even more interesting is the promise to the fourth church. By this time the papal church is in full operation.
The "leader" (the fallen star of the third trumpet)is seducing God's servants to commit spiritual fornication, it's the dark ages when leadership is leading people to know the depths of satan (strong language from those verses that certainly suggests truth to your question)

And here we see God promising those who resist the apostasy a DIFFERENT STAR!!!

Rev. 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Jesus declares--
22:16 I Jesus am .. the bright and morning star.


EGW talks of John Wycliffe as the "morning star" of the Reformation.
Wycliffe protested against the papal church (the fallen star) and turned people's eyes back to Jesus, the Savior. (The ultimate and true morning Star)






Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/05/14 02:10 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication


First -- I see the falling star in the third trumpet as the papal leadership leading the church into apostasy; turning the gospel water of life into wormwood. This would
match your question concerning a leader in the churches which unleashes satan and his angels to wreck havoc.

Secondly -- while the churches were all present in John's day, they also reveal a progression throughout the Christian history. And this progression shows some interesting links.

The third church in Pergamos, shows "Satan's seat" is being established in the place where the church dwells.
It's marking the rise of the papal church.

But what's even more interesting is the promise to the fourth church. By this time the papal church is in full operation.
The "leader" (the fallen star of the third trumpet)is seducing God's servants to commit spiritual fornication, it's the dark ages when leadership is leading people to know the depths of satan (strong language from those verses that certainly suggests truth to your question)

And here we see God promising those who resist the apostasy a DIFFERENT STAR!!!

Rev. 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Jesus declares--
22:16 I Jesus am .. the bright and morning star.


EGW talks of John Wycliffe as the "morning star" of the Reformation.
Wycliffe protested against the papal church (the fallen star) and turned people's eyes back to Jesus, the Savior. (The ultimate and true morning Star)



Indeed, the Papacy is in full operation and God's people are in danger of satanic delusion. No wonder that God is depicted as a flying eagle to protect His people in the three woes (Rev 8:13). The Papacy is originated from the fallen star, the Satan, the counterfeit of the true morning star.

“Woe, woe, woe”, “awake, awake, awake”

Only those men, which have the seal of God in their foreheads, will be protected and delivered (Rev. 9:4) from the unleashing of the Satan and his evil angels.
God’s plan is the evil destroys evil. The forces of the evil destroy all the men without the seal of God, which are the evil people. “The grass of the earth,..any green thing, … any tree” symbolize men on the earth (Rev. 9:4).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/07/14 03:36 AM

The first trumpet causes hail and fire mixed with blood that burns 1/3 of the earth, 1/3 of the trees and all green grass. The trees and green grass depict the mankind. Hail and fire mixed with blood indicate devastated condition of man on earth, which the first bowl of plague manifested as ‘a noisome and grievous sore upon the men’.
The original teachings of the Apostles to the church was to ‘abstain …from things strangled, and from blood’ (Acts15:20). However, many Christians have given up the first love of Ephesus church nowadays and many have forsaken the discretion of the holy and unholy, and clean and unclean. 3 John 1:2 “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” God’s instruction remains the same yesterday and today, particularly in health message in this context.

The white horse of the first seal had a bow to prick a heart of man to repentance. Acts 2:37 “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

We may conclude that the first plague is culminated from ignorance of the health message of the first church.

Our loving God of heaven does not disregard the warning of dangers unhealthful living that is of the first trumpet, which will bring rampant of diseases that will destroy 1/3 of the mankind of the last generations.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 04:40 PM

Karen, are you saying the Feast of Trumpets started in 1844 or shortly after? Am I understanding you right that we've been living during the seven trumpets which is symbolized by the Feast of Trumpets since 1844?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 05:00 PM

I agree that we need to understand the seven trumpets and give the warning. But they are not just messages like the three angels. They are actual events. It's true they mirror the plagues, but they don't warn of the approach of the plagues merely by words. They describe events that are harbingers of the wrath to come.

Our culture is beyond listening to mere words. God is his mercy will send warning judgments to awaken us prior to the judgments that are without mercy. I'm afraid that for many of us, it will be too late when these start. May God have mercy on Zion.

Regarding the sealing, it is the latter rain that seals the 144000. I repeatedly hear folk claim that the sealing of Adventists takes place before the latter rain. But we must have both to be sealed - the early rain is essential but so is the latter rain to complete the work of the early rain.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 06:04 PM

By the way I think one reason for some of the confusion on when the sealing occurs is that Ellen White makes statements that the door of mercy will shut early for Adventists. Some read into that truth more than is there. While the door of mercy will shut earlier for some of us, this does not mean the those who pass the initial shaking are sealed. All of humanity living at the end will have to meet the final test, and even then, there will be further refinement after the close of probation during the time of Jacob's trouble. God doesn't stress us without a redemptive and loving purpose.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 08:19 PM

Quote:
While the door of mercy will shut earlier for some of us, this does not mean the those who pass the initial shaking are sealed.
So would that mean, there is a negative sealing, but not necessarily a positive sealing?
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland

Now that's an interesting thought I hadn't thought of. Could it be that something a leader of one of the churches does which unleashes satan and his angels to wreck havoc?


I read your comment and then reread the list of revelation's "stars" and a connection kind of "jumped out" that I had never seen before.
I've been thinking about this, but it says a star from heaven. Not sure how a leader of a church can be from heaven placing it in such context.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/09/14 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
While the door of mercy will shut earlier for some of us, this does not mean the those who pass the initial shaking are sealed.
So would that mean, there is a negative sealing, but not necessarily a positive sealing?


Right. History bears that out from the shut door of the Ark, to the doom of the Canaanites, to the Jews at the close of the 70 weeks etc. Those in the Ark weren't sealed, (Ham was later cursed) but those outside were doomed.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 05:15 AM

Yes, the sanctuary is the KEY to understanding the book of Revelation!

When you consider the Feast of Trumpets in Leviticus chap. 23, the Seven Trumpet of Revelation has to be the announcement of the Anti-typical Day of Atonement, which should have been sounded ever since the 1844 and that the end of the world is near.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I agree that we need to understand the seven trumpets and give the warning. But they are not just messages like the three angels. They are actual events. It's true they mirror the plagues, but they don't warn of the approach of the plagues merely by words. They describe events that are harbingers of the wrath to come.


The sound of the Seven Trumpets describes detailed events of the Seven Plagues, in that God may prevent men to receive less plagues.

The four angels are holding the winds of the earth until the complete sealing of the 144,000 (Rev. 7:1-4). At a point of time, God will command the four angels to loose their hold (Rev. 9:13-14), which is the end of probation. I don't think that God's command to loose that hold of angels will take 391 years like some interpreters of the sixth trumpet but it would be immediately obeyed by the four angels.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 05:51 AM

I've been pondering this observation by Dedication for a couple days:

Originally Posted By: dedication
THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS

This feast was observed on the first day of the seventh month.
Now the first day of every month was begun with the blowing of trumpets and special ceremonies. So why make special mention of the blowing of trumpets on the first day of the seventh month?

It was important because this was the seventh month, and the trumpets were announcing that this was the month for the Day of Atonement and all were to consecrate themselves to the Lord in preparation for this solemn day.

It is interesting that seven months pass. Each beginning with a trumpet blast. On the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet blast, announcing the day of atonement.

Are any bells ringing in our minds? Is anything in the Bible corresponding with this in our minds?

Revelation.
There we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, not all together. And when the seventh trumpet blows, in Revelation chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.


Let's assume for the moment that the seven trumpets of Revelation have a future application. According to Numbers 10 the silver trumpets were to be blown over the burnt offerings of all the sacred feasts. While it's true that they were also blown at every month of the ancient sacred calendar, at the Feast of Trumpets at the start of the seventh month there were four distinct burnt offerings made on that day (see Numbers 10, 28 and 29) so the trumpets were blown at least four times that day. Now if you look at the trumpets of Revelation 8-11, it's interesting that the first four are grouped separately from the last three. The last three are woes and there is an interlude between them that announces the terrible effects of the final three before they occur.

The same grouping pattern appears in the seal. The first four seals are summoned by each of the four living creatures (covering cherubs) that surround the throne. The last three are not. Why? One thing it suggests to me is that the first four seals and trumpets may happen at about the same time. What do you all think?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 06:18 AM

When we consider the framework of the Book of Revelation, the sequential pattern to the flow of events indicate that the sealed of God will blow the Seven Trumpets prior to the end of the probation.

1. people enter into the church (Seven Churches)
2. evaluated in the throne room(qualified by the blood of Lamb)
3. saints are sealed (Seven Seals)
4. blow the Seven Trumpets
5. Exposing the ID of Satan (Chap. 12-14)
6. Seven Plagues fall (Chap. 15-16)
7. Collapse of the Babylon (Chap. 17-18)
8. Second Coming of Jesus (Chap. 19)
9. Reviewing the Judgment during the millennium
10. New heaven and new earth

We are not to disconnect the series of visions, jumping around in time. There are sequential pattern to the flow of events as a continuous vision, which has a logical relatedness.
The scenes of Revelation alternate between heaven and earth until the final destination in the new Jerusalem .
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 07:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick


The same grouping pattern appears in the seal. The first four seals are summoned by each of the four living creatures (covering cherubs) that surround the throne. The last three are not. Why? One thing it suggests to me is that the first four seals and trumpets may happen at about the same time. What do you all think?


I've contemplated on those four horses in Rev. 6 and come to the conclusion that even though they were released in sequence, all of them continue to ride right to the end of earth's history.


The white horse-- Depicting the Gospel going out to the world under the power of the "early rain". The Holy Spirit is still at work to give us the power and love of the pure gospel.


The red horse -- The spirit of persecution from pagan sources is still trying to obliterate the pure gospel .

The black horse -- And when Christians slide into complacency, and lose the Spirit of God, they still become self-appointed judges of other people.

The pale horse -- the apostate doctrines and spiritual abuse is still raging and will accelerate in the last days.

The other three seals show --
1) God will vindicate his persecuted saints
2) Christ will come again to execute judgment upon unbelievers
3) God will seal His faith people and they will stand before His throne in praise and adoration.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 07:44 AM

As to the seven trumpets --
They do show the key controversy of the last days.

1) The first trumpet shows the fall of Jerusalem after they, as a nation rejected Christ.(though many individual Jews accepted Christ and carried the gospel to the world)

In the last days Jerusalem will play a significant role in the deceptive counterfeits of satan. Heed the voice of the trumpet that this is NOT the place to seek safety and salvation. Be like the individual Jews at that time and go out into the world bearing the true gospel message.

2) Depicts the fall of Christian Imperial Rome --
The linking up of Christianity with the emperors was deadly to truth.
Heed the trumpet call to keep church and state separate -- churches are not to ally themselves with powerful political identies.

3-4) Depicts the papal darkness -- and the water of life being turned to "wormwood".

In the last days the papacy will rise to incredible power and influence -- but they still have the same "wormwood" to offer.

5-6 Depict the two powerful Islamic periods and the warfare between Christians and Islam over Jerusalem as well as for control over the conscience of the people.

This will again be a major thing in the last days. The battle will be fierce, terrible things will take place, the "king of the north" will appear to win, he will establish himself in the "glorious mountain" and seek to enforce his brand of worship upon the world. It will be accompanied by "signs and wonders" to deceive the whole world.

7) The nations are angry, but God is judge, the ark of the covenant is the where the standard and mercy reside and the faithful will understand this.
The time of judgment has come. Christ comes and the reward is with Him. He reigns!
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
When we consider the framework of the Book of Revelation, the sequential pattern to the flow of events indicate that the sealed of God will blow the Seven Trumpets prior to the end of the probation.....

We are not to disconnect the series of visions, jumping around in time. There are sequential pattern to the flow of events as a continuous vision,

Seeing the cyclic nature of prophecy is not "jumping around" at all -- in fact it runs much more smoothly then trying to make all of Revelation one continuous sequence.

Like -- the sixth seal depicts Christ's coming and its effect on the unsaved. While the next chapter depicts those who will be able to stand at that coming and enjoy heaven and being in the presence of God's throne.

The trumpets then take us back to events that take place prior to these seals.
The seventh trumpet takes us right up to Christ reigning for ever.
But the following chapters take us back to events prior to this.

The sequences are:


--------------churches--------------------------------------
--------------seals-------------------------------------------
--------------trumpets--------------------------------------

....................--------------Rev. 13 ---------------------
..............................................---Rev. 14-------
.....................................................Rev.15-18
............................................................Rev.19-22



Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick


The same grouping pattern appears in the seal. The first four seals are summoned by each of the four living creatures (covering cherubs) that surround the throne. The last three are not. Why? One thing it suggests to me is that the first four seals and trumpets may happen at about the same time. What do you all think?


I've contemplated on those four horses in Rev. 6 and come to the conclusion that even though they were released in sequence, all of them continue to ride right to the end of earth's history. . .


Another good observation. Thanks for sharing that.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 12:29 PM

Quote:
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. GC 488.

I've suggested before that the most import event in the history of the world next to the life and death of the Jesus Christ is the judgment of the living and as such it will be clearly revealed in scripture prophecy. Where do we find that event in Daniel and Revelation? I believe it's especially in the trumpets and seals, especially in the introductory passages. Those scenes should be "contemplated often" and studied very very carefully.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/14 02:33 PM

I suggested above that the first four trumpets and seals are grouped together and may happen close to each other. I still believe they are sequential though. Here's a couple quotes from Ellen White:

Quote:
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1). Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. [The seven seals.] Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6. [The first six seals.] {15MR 219.2 – 220.1}
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/11/14 07:07 AM

Thanks for this post bro. Mark. Let us keep in mind that the "seven seals" are descriptions of the seven time periods of God's history whereby each particular generation(s) were to be 'sealed" by that particular "truth" given by the Lord (hence sealed by accepting that truth for their day). EGW and Scripture (Elijah message also) tells us that truth is always advancing and that the Lord works to bring more light to His people as time goes by.

For instance --stoning the sinners was "present truth" for Moses' time. Now we do not dare think this is truth for our time. rather the truth for our time is specifically -- the Elijah message. This is what gets us 'sealed" today--our acceptance of it. should we deny it, we cannot expect the Lord to "seal " us.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/12/14 05:14 AM

"They had the Bible as we have, but the time for the unfolding of special truth in relation to the closing scenes of this earth's history is during the last generations that shall live upon the earth." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 692-693)

"Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word." (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 112)

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not proof that our ideas are infallible." (Advent Review & Sabbath Herald, Dec. 20, 1892)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/12/14 05:52 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

I've been thinking about this, but it says a star from heaven. Not sure how a leader of a church can be from heaven placing it in such context.


How about two major religious movements, both basing their religion on Abraham, who have a lot of truth so it appears to be from heaven, but that is laced with deceptions, and which spirals into darkness.
Both the Catholic and Muslims have considerable truth but it's fallen truth laced with much falsehood.

Think too about Daniel 8 --
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

The horn (Rome) conquers Carthage in Africa, Asia Minor and Jerusalem. Then it waxed great even to the host of heaven! (But it didn't go to heaven) Through the papacy it took on the prerogatives of heaven -- usurping Christ's role as high Priest.
And they cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground.

How did the "horn" reach up to heaven and cast down the "stars"?

Is this persecuting God's people, or pulling some of God's messengers down into their deception? Anyway the stars here do seem to be church leaders.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/12/14 05:57 AM

The second bowl of the plague indicates that the sea became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea (Rev 16:3). The great mountain in the second trumpet indicates an enormous sabotage that is upon the sea life, which caused the ‘third part of the sea became blood (Rev 8:8). We hear that the Red tide in ocean threatens the sea life these days. The phenomenon occurs with depleted oxygen in the water.
The apparent correlation of the second plague and the trumpet hint the pollution of the sea life, which eventually cause death to men.

I believe that the second trumpet is also the warning of health message for the last generation as well as the first trumpet. The disruption of life on earth and the sea is depicted here.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/12/14 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

I've suggested before that the most import event in the history of the world next to the life and death of the Jesus Christ is the judgment of the living and as such it will be clearly revealed in scripture prophecy. Where do we find that event in Daniel and Revelation? I believe it's especially in the trumpets and seals, especially in the introductory passages. Those scenes should be "contemplated often" and studied very very carefully.


To understand Christ's heavenly ministry in the sanctuary above is very important.
It's a subject my husband and I have been studying for many years now. The years around the 1970's made it necessary to study this subject diligently as it was being challenged not only from without but in a big way from within the church. It got very close to home as even some of our relatives rejected the sanctuary message and tried to reason us out of it as well.

Prior to this I had read through Revelation and thought our "old" understanding of the seals and trumpets was "strange" as well. But as we had to face the assault on our beliefs and were driven to study the subject more deeply it became ever more clear that the solid foundation for our beliefs lay in the framework delivered to us by the pioneers.
No -- I don't think the pioneers had everything right, but they had the framework. And while the understanding of the sanctuary work of Christ has advanced and become ever more full and thoroughly seen all through scripture, it still rests on the framework.

One of the main opposition points was --
1844 is a myth, a disappointment out of which a group of people dreamed up a theory to save face, and that Christ did not enter the Most Holy in 1844 and start some new work, but Christ entered the Most Holy when He ascended into heaven and that's where He has been ever since.

How are you going to prove that Christ has a two fold ministry?
And why is that important?
Why did Jesus spend 1810 years ministering in the Holy Place if its mainly the "judgment of the living" that is important?

We need to dwell on the whole of Christ's saving work -- His ministry. It's all part of salvation. There can be no "day of atonement" without the previous daily work in the Holy Place.

The churches in Revelation show Christ's work amongst His people -- they are to be the lights through which He shines His message tot he world -- the candlesticks -- symbolic of the Holy Spirit lighting the lives of the God's people. The dangers of that light going out is very real. And it ends with the wonderful message of Christ knocking on our hearts door and that we open wide that door and let Him in to every aspect of our lives and He will give us the gold of faith, the robe of righteousness, the eye salve of discernment.

Next our attention is turned to Christ's work in heaven.

Chapter 4 and 5 show the first door of temple of heaven opened. It leads into the Holy Place. The furniture we see there is Holy Place furniture.
God's throne is symbolized by the table of showbread with it's two crowns, one crown inside the other crown (as you can find in Leviticus) God upon the throne, and Christ-the Lamb in the midst of the throne.
It is the opening of the sanctuary work (not the closing) the book is the book of the covenant with all God's promises, commandments, and dealings.
Christ is authorized to implement the covenant of grace because He was slain and is alive again and has purchased the redemption price.

The trumpets begin with the altar of incense -- the third piece of furniture in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary.
Christ taking our prayers and mixing them with His merits and presenting them before God.

Each of these three sequences has a "change point" when the ministry in the Holy Place ends and the Most Holy Place begins.

The churches -- the sixth church marks the change when a door is shut and another one is opened. (EGW makes direct reference that this is the door to the holy Place being shut and the Most Holy Place opened)

The seals -- how does the Christian world respond to the cleansing fountain opened wide at Calvary? How do they respond to the covenant. The four horses gallop out before the judgment begins and show the Christian world's response to God's covenant. They show not only the progressive history, but also the different forms of Christianity. 1) Those purified in the cleansing fountain of Christ's salvation, 2) persecuted 3) The judgmental, backsliding Christians 4) Total apostasy.
The fifth seal is the call for judgment, the sixth deals with the sealing, first focusing on the unsealed at Christ's coming terrified, while chapter seven deals more directly to the sealing and shows first the last day group sealed, and then all the redeemed before God's throne in the heavenly realms standing on the sea of glass.

The trumpets show the transition most graphically in chapters 10 and 11 and the seventh trumpet.
Chapter 10 which takes place after the sixth trumpet depicts the ending of the long time prophecies, the disappointment and the commission to prophecy again concerning the "measuring of the temple" -- the investigative judgment.
The measuring is the same as in the day of atonement -- of the sanctuary, the altar and the people worshipping within.

The seventh trumpet sounds and another door in the temple is opened and now the ark of the covenant is seen. The 24 elders announce the time has come to judge the dead, and reward the saints and prophets.


Daniel 7 gives a grand picture of the investigative judgment.
The Ancient of Days comes and is seated, Jesus is brought before the heavenly court.

Notice a great difference here between Daniel 7 and Rev. 5.
In Revelation 5 Christ is commissioned and declared worthy to open a book -- to begin the administration of the covenant promises that His blood has ratified and made possible to dispense.

In Daniel 7 Christ is given something quite different -- He is given the kingdom and the dominion. He is the Son of man -- standing at the head of the human race in Adam's place, and receives for mankind the kingdom and dominion that Adam lost.

Back to Revelation we find those who overcome and wash their garments in the blood of the lamb, that fountain opened for the cleansing from sin -- will be heirs along with Christ.
There names will be presented before the Father and the angels.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/12/14 02:17 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
It's a subject my husband and I have been studying for many years now. The years around the 1970's made it necessary to study this subject diligently as it was being challenged not only from without but in a big way from within the church. It got very close to home as even some of our relatives rejected the sanctuary message and tried to reason us out of it as well.


I was a young man myself when Dr. Ford challenged us all on the validity of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment. In the mid 80's I went to hear him for myself in Toronto and after his sermon I spoke with him. We spoke candidly for about half an hour and he was very cordial the whole time. He followed up by writing to me a while later. But I was always impressed that he was far from the truth.

The reason for his success with many Adventists is that they were never grounded in scripture in their faith and practice. His arguments were unsound from the start and should have been easily detected as spurious and unscriptural.

I'll have more to post over the Sabbath on where the Judgment of the Living is described in scripture and the writings of Ellen White. Please critique it, Dedication, and any other brothers or sisters. Looking forward to your comments.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/14/14 06:47 PM

Quote:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven . . . Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: Rev 14:6 and 7.



In all ages, inspiration focuses our attention on the greatest crises to face humanity since time began – judgment day. God through the prophets repeatedly warns and entreats us to turn from our wicked rebellion and be reconciled to him, before the Day of the Lord, before it is forever too late. What I'll say here is not to gratify curiosity regarding the timing of the judgment. It's a plea to seriously consider the signs of the times and given those signs, it's a plea to each of us, myself included, to repent and walk humbly before God as His sons and daughters redeeming the brief time we have left.

Notice below how Ellen White links repentance, confession and humility to judgment day.

Quote:
Those who humble their hearts and confess their sins will be pardoned. Their transgressions will be forgiven. But the man who thinks that should he confess his sins he would show weakness, will not find pardon, will not see Christ as his Redeemer, but will go on and on in transgression, making blunder after blunder and adding sin to sin. What will such a one do in the day that the books are opened and every man is judged according to the things written in the books? {9T 266.2}

The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. . . Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men. They have transgressed the law and broken the everlasting covenant, and they will receive according to their works. {9T 267.1}

Did you catch that? She makes the plea for honesty with God but goes on to apply Revelation 5 to the future when “the books are opened”, “when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men” and “when every man is judged according to the things written in the books”.

What immediately follows the scenes of Revelation 5? The Book is open as each of it's seven seals is broken. But aren't the seals in the past? No, inspiration indicates they apply primarily to the future and are concurrent with the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11, which are also primarily future events. The seven apocalyptic trumpets are sent of God to give warning that “the hour of His judgment is come”, that the door of mercy is about to shut and the seven plagues are about to be poured out.

The judgments of the trumpets which are with mercy warn of the plagues which will be without mercy. This is the reason for their similarity. Each trumpet is a precursor to the corresponding plague it warns against. But before reviewing that point further, here's another application inspiration makes of Revelation 5 and it's impact on those who crucified Christ:

Quote:
When Pilate washed his hands, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person," the priests joined with the ignorant mob in declaring passionately, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Matthew 27:24, 25. Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah. {COL 293.3 and 4}

If Revelation 5 describes the day of reckoning for the murders of Christ what is it for us who, because of our sins, have been likewise responsible for the death of the Son of God if we do not repent?

Regarding the unrolling of the Book and sounding of the trumpets, notice this quote below:

Quote:

My imagination anticipated what it must be in that period when the Lord's mighty voice shall give commission to His angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1). Thy right hand, O God, shall dash in pieces Thine enemies. Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. [The seven seals.] Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain. Give the description in chapter 6. I [The first six seals.] {15MR 219.2 – 220.1}


Here's are three more quotes regarding the future application of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation:
Quote:

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

All that God has in prophetic history specified to be fulfilled in the past has been, and all that is yet to come in its order will be. Daniel, God's prophet, stands in his place. John stands in his place. In the Revelation the Lion of the tribe of Judah has opened to the students of prophecy the book of Daniel, and thus is Daniel standing in his place. He bears his testimony, that which the Lord revealed to him in vision of the great and solemn events which we must know as we stand on the very threshold of their fulfillment. {2SM 109.2}

The great crisis is just before us. To meet its trials and temptations, and to perform its duties, will require persevering faith. But we may triumph gloriously; not one watching, praying, believing soul will be ensnared by the enemy. . . The Lion of Judah, so terrible to the rejectors of His grace, will be the Lamb of God to the obedient and faithful. {6T 404.1}

When can we expect these warning trumpets to sound? The seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11 are fore-shadowed by the ancient Feast of Trumpets. On the sacred calendar, the Feast of Trumpets occurred on the first day of the seventh Hebrew month (mid September on our calendar) and announced the approach of the Day of Atonement ten days later, Judgment Day.

While we don't know what year the trumpets will sound there are current signs and harbingers:

*This year is a Sabbatical that ends the seven year cycle when debts are canceled. This occurs on the day before the Feast of Trumpets.
*The two biggest financial meltdowns in the last 14 years occurred on the last day of the two previous Sabbaticals, September 17, 2001 and September 29, 2008.
*The sins of abortion and same sex marriage are soon to become national norms. Vice of every kind is nurtured, oppression and lust, theft and murder are rife.
*Our culture is desensitized to sin and mere words are not enough. God's only means to awake us is a shaking and warning judgments.
*This spring a lunar eclipse called a Blood Moon will fall on Passover and this fall another blood moon eclipse will fall on the Feast of Tabernacles with a solar eclipse between the two.

It says in Joel that before the day of the Lord, the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood.

Consider these statements regarding the impending doom of our cities and our duty to warn them:

Quote:
The end is near and every city is to be turned upside down every way. There will be confusion in every city. Everything that can be shaken is to be shaken and we do not know what will come next. The judgments will be according to the wickedness of the people and the light of truth that they have had.--1MR 248 (1902). {LDE 111.3}

Terrible shocks will come upon the earth, and the lordly palaces erected at great expense will certainly become heaps of ruins.--3MR 312 (1891). {LDE 110.5}

When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come.--3MR 314 (1897). {LDE 111.1}

O that God's people had a sense of the impending destruction of thousands of cities, now almost given to idolatry.--Ev 29 (1903). {LDE 111.4}

The time is near when large cities will be swept away, and all should be warned of these coming judgments.--Ev 29 (1910).

In closing notice that the seven trumpets are immediately preceded by a substantial earthquake. Rev. 8:5. All of this isn't to say something must occur, but we should make no mistake that God can and does appoint times and limits to sinful humanity. This coming September 13 nothing may happen but if I lived in any large city, I would not take the risk of staying there then. And as important as it is to be migrating from the cities, the call of God now is to repent, get our lives right with Him and with each other. Let's not continue to neglect to warn those living in the cities, let's get out of the large cities as soon as we can but, let's do it for the right motives – repentance, not fear.


Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/14/14 11:04 PM

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." Rev 8:10-11
Because "they have shed the blood of saints and prophets (Rev 16:6)" they must drink the bitter waters, for God "has given them blood to drink; for they are worthy (Rev 16:6)", according to the third plague.
It is apparent that the seven trumpets and the seven plagues present as a series of causes and effects.
Notice the pattern also in the third plague that says, “the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood (Rev. 16:4).
The image of the third trumpet, then, is the warning that God will bring judgment of the third plague.
We are told that the river and springs are no longer pure in the third trumpet, which will cause people to suffer and die, crops fail and famine exists in the consequence, which the third plague portrays.
The third Church in Pergamos, which had the doctrine of Balaam and Nicolaitans, has corrupted the truth that originated from the seat of Satan (Rev 2:13).
The black horse in third seal indicates a compromise of the truth, which turned the water into Wormwood that caused men to die.
Notice also that the each of the seven trumpets is dramatically longer description than the seven plagues. The implication of the trumpets is to give the warnings to avoid the coming seven plagues.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/17/14 06:23 AM


God has signified the visions of the Book of Revelation.

Consider this point that in the Chap. Seven, the four angels are restrained from letting loose the four winds of the earth but in the sixth trumpet the voice from the four horns of the golden altar commands, “loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates”. (The Euphrates was the ideal boundary of the territory of Israel. God promised to Abram: “in the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:”Genesis 15:18)
Evidently the four angels are restrained in the pouring of the wrath of God of the seven plagues. In the definite moment the four angels are going to be let loose of the hold. When the hour strikes, which indicated for the hour, day, month, and year, the two hundred million horsemen are going to kill the third part of men of the earth. Remember that they have received the commission from the golden altar. They are the armies of heaven and they appear with fire, smoke and brimstone, which no earthly warriors are like. They also have heads of lions, because of the unspeakable ferocity. Rev. 9:20 records that there are men who are not killed by these three plagues of the fire, smoke and brimstone. Notice that the threats are for the impenitent sinners. Therefore, we must look at the sixth plague to unlock the sixth trumpet. The purpose of the fire, smoke and brimstone indicates that there are three identities to punish for their unrighteousness.

The apparent correlations between the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Plagues indicate that the Seven Trumpets are the warnings for the Catastrophes of the coming Seven Plagues.

Habakkuk 2:2 “And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.”
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/22/14 06:07 AM

In ancient Israel there were seven annual feasts of the Lord:
Feast
1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. First fruits
4. Pentecost

5. Feast of Trumpets
6. The Day of Atonement
7. The Feast of Tabernacles

All these “[/b]shadows of good things to come[b]” denote the perfect plan of redemption of God. Therefore, the Feast of Trumpets has to find its fulfillment prior to the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. The Seven Trumpets of the book of Revelation recapitulates its significance of the Feast of Trumpets.

1 Peter 1:10-11 “Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did [/b]signify[b], when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the [/b]glory that should follow[b].”

Thus, the Feast of Trumpets has significant application in the order of interpretation of the Seven Trumpets of the book of Revelation.

There was a long interval between the Feast of the Pentecost and Trumpets (Lev. 23:22-24), which signifies that the gathering of souls into the Lord’s fold wait up to the coming of the final call to worship in the Seven Trumpets.

Keep in mind that the feasts listed in Leviticus chapter 23 are all prophetic.

The Feast of Trumpets also points forward to future events, which was to announce that God’s people had to prepare for The Day of Atonement. So the significance of the Seven Trumpets is to announce that the end of the world is near and the closing of probation is imminent.

The Lord Jesus told us, “beginning at Moses,” as He expounded to the two disciples on the way to Emmaus “the things concerning himself.” Let us also not be “slow of heart to believe” (Luke 24:25).

“The correct understanding of the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is the foundation of our faith.”-Evangelism 221

“The subject of the sanctuary should be carefully examined, as it lies at the foundation of our faith and hope.”-The Advent Review, CIHS 8.3

In the Book of Revelation the Seven Trumpets are a dramatically longer description than the Seven Plagues. It implies that the threat of warnings of the Seven Trumpets may reduce the number of the wicked to receive the wrath of God in the Seven Plagues.

We are told that the Feast of Trumpets gathered the people of God to worship Him (Lev. 23:24). So the Seven Trumpets should serve the same purpose to gather the church of God to worship Him and Him only.

There is a struggle whether or not the Seven Trumpets of the Revelation should be interpreted as prior to the close of the probation or after.

How can we square the interpretations in the sanctuary message, which is the key to understand the book of Revelation?

When we remember that God has signified the visions of the Revelation, we ought to keep in mind that the Feast of Trumpets has the significance to interpret of the purpose of the Seven Trumpets in the Revelation.

We know that the Seven Trumpets describes of the judgments of God because of the prayers of the saints that ascended to the throne, which God answers by casting the incense upon the earth. However, the Seven Trumpet judgments are not poured out until after the casting of the incense according to the book of Revelation, which puzzles some of us. I hear some say that why then, should sound the Seven Trumpets and for what purpose. We also know that while the Seven Trumpets are sounding, the assurance of Jesus’ ministration in the heavenly sanctuary is specified.

Inclusively, the Seven Trumpets must be interpreted as the warning messages for the Seven Plagues, which the church of God has to appreciate in the foreknowledge of the details of the coming wrath of God in the cause of the blasting of the trumpets. Therefore, the forewarning of the Seven Plagues is the Seven Trumpets, which fits the future application.

Jesus said, “all the churches shall know” (Rev. 2:23) that “I Jesus have (has) …testify (testified) …these things in the churches” (Rev. 22:16).

What Jesus has revealed to us in the Seven Trumpets is to call the church to worship God in truth, if not, the threats of the seven trumpet judgments will poured out in the Seven last Plagues. The interlocking of the Seven Trumpet and the Seven Plagues stipulate us that the both events are the one and the same things in the whole picture. Therefore, the blowing of the Seven Trumpets of warnings about the coming Seven Last Plagues while the mercy of God exist, squares in for the impeccable interpretation that correspond with the sanctuary message.

“Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us.”-7BC 982
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/22/14 01:04 PM

Karen, the fact of the trumpets being about to sound is present truth. Not many Adventists have ears and hearts to hear, but it is present truth nonetheless. Praise the Lord though that what He has hidden from the wise, He is revealing to babes! Jonathan Cahn's book The Harbinger has sold over a million copies and gone through several printings in the short time it's been released. I wrote an article on this for the non-Adventist public that I'll post below.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/22/14 01:12 PM

Judgment Day in Scripture

Quote:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven . . . Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come. Rev 14:6 and 7.



In all ages, inspiration focuses our attention on the greatest event to face humanity since time began – judgment day. Through the prophets God repeatedly warns and entreats us to turn from our sins and be reconciled to him before the Day of the Lord, before it's too late. Noah warned his generation of the Flood. Jonah warned Nineveh. The prophets warned Jerusalem and Israel. I have no doubt that God is sending us that same message now, a warning of judgment but also a tender invitation of mercy.

Jonathan Cahn in his best selling book, The Harbinger, analyzes several circumstances surrounding 9/11 that unmistakably show the fingerprint of God. What took place then was both a Divine judgment and a merciful warning and call to us individually and as a nation to repent. In his most recent book, The Mystery of the Shemitah Cahn explains the ancient seven year Sabbatical cycle of Leviticus 25, how it's relevant to 9/11 and to us now and what it points to this coming fall, 2015 – a global shaking of apocalyptic proportions. I highly recommend both books and his lectures on Youtube.com.

Why do I recommend them? For several reasons:

1. From history we know the ancient Bible feasts are prophetic. The spring feasts pointed forward to the first advent or coming of Christ. On the day of Passover, at the exact time of the sacrifice of the Passover lamb, Christ was crucified. He rested in the grave over the Sabbath and rose the next day on Sunday, the first fruits of the gospel harvest, exactly on the Feast of Fruits. Lev. 23: 4-22, Col 1:18 and I Cor. 15:20-23. Precisely fifty days later on the Feast of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was giving to the church and the gospel harvest began. A small despised group of fishermen took the good news of pardon and life in Christ to the world in one generation. But the point is that if the spring feasts were precisely fulfilled at the first coming of Christ, the fall feasts point as precisely to events related to His second advent.

2. All of the fall feasts occur in the seventh Jewish month, Tishri which is September-October on our calendar. These are still to be fulfilled. They are:
The Feast of Trumpets on the first day on the New Moon,
The Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur on the tenth day,
The Feast of Tabernacles five days after the Day of Atonement on the fifteenth of Tishri.

3. Because America has not heeded the divine warnings from 9/11 and other disasters and humbled herself, this fall God may well, in his mercy, give us and the world a much louder warning – the warning prophesied in the Feast of Trumpets and graphically depicted by the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11. What are some of the signs of this?

Anciently the Jews were commanded to cancel all debts and allow the land to lay fallow with no planting or harvesting every seventh year. It was to be a Shemitah or Sabbath rest for the land. The Jews disobeyed this command and the prophet Jeremiah points to this as one of the causes of their overthrow and 70 years of captivity by the Babylonians. Each of the 70 years when the land of Israel lay waste and desolate made up for the 70 unobserved Sabbaticals. II Chor. 36:14-21. This year is a Sabbatical that ends the seven year cycle when debts are canceled on the evening of the Feast of Trumpets. There are signs that the Sabbatical year is still in effect today on the bible calendar: For example:

Modern Orthodox Jews symbolically cancel their debts at the end of the Sabbatical on the last day of the sixth month, the day before the Feast of Trumpets. The Jews honor the Sabbatical, not literally but in theory.

The two biggest single day stock losses in the last 14 years occurred on the last day of the two previous Sabbaticals, September 17, 2001 and September 29, 2008. On both days the market lost approximately 7% of it's value.

The law of the Sabbatical points to the sovereignty of God over the land and to the authority of his Ten Commandments. In spite of 9/11 and other divine warnings abortion, fornication and same sex marriage are rapidly becoming national norms in violation of the sixth and seventh commandments. Vice of every kind is tolerated and nurtured and even worshiped above God; oppression and lust, theft and murder are rife. Our culture is desensitized to sin and mere words are no longer enough. God in mercy has no choice but to shake us to awaken us, if possible, to our danger and to turn us to Christ as our sin pardoning Savior.

There are also signs in the sky that the seven trumpets of Revelation will sound shortly. This spring a lunar eclipse called a Blood Moon will fall on Passover and this fall another blood moon eclipse will fall on the Feast of Tabernacles with a solar eclipse between the two.

As I said above, the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11 are fore-shadowed by the ancient Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets occurred on the first day of the seventh Hebrew month and announced the approach of the Day of Atonement ten days later. Both modern and ancient Jews teach that Yom Kippur is the day of reckoning when a person's destiny is sealed. It is a day of judgment and sealing. If the trumpets of Revelation begin to sound on September 13, 2015 then the judgment Day of Atonement follows ten days later. See Leviticus 16 and Revelation 14:6 and 7. Just as Pentecost marked the start of the gospel era with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, in the same way, the Day of Atonement this fall could mark the start of the time of sealing and atonement when sins are blotted out at the final outpouring of the Holy Spirit foretold by the prophet Joel and the Apostle Peter:

Quote:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Act 3:19 – 21.


Quote:
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joe 2:28-32.


The Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 describes the end-time judgment of God's people. It should be carefully studied along with the prophecies of Daniel 7-12 and Revelation 4-19 and Joel 1-3. We've seen here in Joel that before the day of the Lord, the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood. This is not to say that every solar and lunar eclipse is significant, but scripture indicates that these phenomena can be signs. Genesis 1:14.

I mentioned September 13, 2015 above as when the trumpets of Revelation may begin to sound but this is not date setting. No one knows for sure when this will happen. It may not happen this fall, but if it does, then there is no doubt that we'll know it. We do know this much: That Providence will announce it with the clarity of a trumpet. Even a brief look at the description of the trumpets given in Revelation 8 to 11 shows that these events are of global proportions.

What does this mean for you and me? Speaking of the final Day of Atonement the word says:

Quote:
Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach. Joe 2:15 – 17.


Finally, notice that the seven trumpets are immediately preceded by a substantial earthquake. Rev. 8:5. Again, all of this isn't to say something must occur, but we should make no mistake that God can and does appoint times and limits to sinful men and women, young and old, communities, cities and nations. This coming September 13 nothing may happen. But because of the thickening signs and omens foretold in scripture if I lived in any large city, I would not take the risk of staying there then. I would have a reasonable supply of food for myself and to share with others. But between now and then I would (and will) be checking myself and my position with God by his word because the only truly safe place in time of peace or peril is within the arms of His will.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
There are also signs in the sky that the seven trumpets of Revelation will sound shortly. This spring a lunar eclipse called a Blood Moon will fall on Passover and this fall another blood moon eclipse will fall on the Feast of Tabernacles with a solar eclipse between the two.
First, one must determine what a "Blood Moon" is. Is it October's full moon, also called "Hunter's Moon", which comes right after September's "Harvest Moon", also called "Full Corn Moon"?

Or is it any lunar eclipse, of which occurs at least twice and as many as five times each year?

Or is it one of a four in a series called a tetrad, which are rare as there will be only 8 tetrads this century, the first of which occurred in 2003.

Then one must consider if a lunar eclipse (or Hunter's moon) any where resembles "blood" or even could be called "red". I took photos of the one this past October and I would described it as having a faint orange moon-glow. No red about it. But timeanddate.com does say they can be coppery red, whatever that means. It says about "blood moon", "The term has no technical or astronomical basis and it is unclear where it comes from."

And does it have to be a "total" eclipse or mostly.

Then one has to consider whether an eclipse, or a series of eclipses has any relevance to Passover or the end of the world. John Hagee and Mark Biltz think so. Or at least think the Blood Moon Prophecy is useful for selling books.

From the linked wikipedia site:
since the Jewish Calendar is lunar, one sixth of all eclipses will occur during Passover or Sukkot. Furthermore, there have been 62 tetrads since the first century AD and eight of them have coincided with both the feasts. Thus, the event is not as unusual as Hagee and Biltz imply. Additionally, three of the four eclipses in the tetrad will not even be visible in the biblical homeland of Israel, casting further doubt on Hagee and Biltz's interpretation.

So, how does one determine whether a tetrad is a significant one, or just one of several? I would suppose that it's always the upcoming one which is significant for each past, current, and future generation.

I do think caution needs to be taken in linking any set of reoccurring eclipses with any end-time event. No doubt, they have been used in the past, which came and went. If this one comes and goes just the same, where does that leave one? Kind of sounding like the one predicting the bank collapse by the end of the year, then revising it to next year, then the next, then the next, and yawn, everyone has fallen asleep.

Anyway, nothing to connect eclipses, 4 or otherwise, Passover, and the end of the world.

An interesting issue for neo-Jews, is a full moon is required for the eclipse, part of why it happens. There are an average of 29.5 days in a lunar cycle. For it to be half way through the cycle would mean that it is on day 14/15. Which of course means that day one, the new moon, occurred about 14 days before that. Except the neo-Jews says the new moon occurs 2-3 days after the new moon which would shortchange it and mean only about 12 days passed before the full moon.


There may be reasons to believe the end of the world is near. But a periodic reoccurring natural phenomenon is not one of them.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 04:00 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Furthermore, there have been 62 tetrads since the first century AD and eight of them have coincided with both the feasts.


Eight times in 2000 years isn't what most people think of as a common occurrence. If that was the only sign, I agree it wouldn't be that strong. But if you combine it with the others it's worth taking note that maybe there's something to it. Personally, looking at the signs of the soon return of Christ to me is like looking at the beauties of spring knowing summer is not far away.

I think it was Alfred Edershiem who says in his book The Temple It's Ministry and Services that every Passover the modern Orthodox Jews send a child to the door to welcome Elijah. If nothing else, studying the fall feasts will help us understand what will happen soon, whether this fall or sometime later.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 10:46 AM



There have been hundreds of full moon eclipses over the past 2000 years. Many of them falling on a "festival date", since the festivals were set by the moon, and thus took place at the full moon, and many of these eclipses had the "red" glow.
Red moon eclipses are quite common.

The rarity is having four in sequence and all falling on festival dates. Those have taken place only seven times in past 2000 years.
162 and 163 A.D.,
795 and 796 A.D.
842 and 843 A.D
860 and 861 A.D
1493 and 1494
1949 and 1950
1967 and 1968

And now an eighth time in 2014-2015.

If you want to study moon eclipse history--
http://www.eclipsewise.com/lunar/LEcatalog/LEcatalog.html

The moon eclipses can be scientifically calculated.
Thus they can be used as "signs and wonders" by wrong people.
Even Christopher Columbus worked on the superstition of American natives -- he knew an eclipse was coming, and threatened the natives that if they didn't listen to him and do what he wanted the gods would be angry and cause the moon to turn red.

The writer of "Four Blood Moons" is definitely of the futurist interpretation of prophecy, and has everything explained to further his version of the futurist prophetic picture (all centered mainly on the literal Jews)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 01:46 PM

Here's something I haven't checked. How many of the seven (according to Dedication) or eight (according to Kland's source) tetrads end on a Sabbatical? How many end at the start of a Jubilee?

Cahn claims that the Jewish observance of the Sabbaticals is still intact, that they have maintained an accurate count, but that the reckoning of the Jubilee's was lost and that today, no one knows when the Jubilee's occur. He points to the historical mile stones of modern Israel's restoration as evidence that the next jubilee starts in the fall of 2015. I'm not fully persuaded on his reasoning on the Jubilee, but from my own study I agree with him that the modern Jewish reckoning of the Sabbaticals is accurate and that the current Sabbatical ends on the evening of September 13, 2015.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 01:59 PM

One thing that adds credibility to Cahn's message is that he's one of the few Evangelicals that agrees with our reckoning of the 70 weeks. Cahn's and the Jewish reckoning of the Sabbaticals synchronizes with 457 BC as the starting year of the Sabbatical cycle and 34 AD as an end year. If you project those dates forward counting every seven years, we are currently in a Sabbatical that ends this coming September.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/14 06:38 PM

I checked the final tetrad years posted by Dedication to see if any of the former seven tetrads in the last 2000 years end on the end of a Sabbatical. This fall is the only time.

Why does that matter? Because Jeremiah's prophecy, the text of II Ch. 36:21 and the 70 week prophecy of Daniel show that judgment is linked to the Sabbaticals. When God's people honor him the Sabbaticals are a channel of blessing from God. The opposite is also true. The probation of the Jews ended in the fall of 34 AD precisely at the end of the 70th week and precisely at the end of the Sabbatical.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 03:52 AM

The fact that Sabbaticals point to judgment is also confirmed in the 1260 day prophecies. Sabbatical years ended in both 538 AD and 1798 AD. Interestingly there were exactly 180 Sabbaticals over that period. 1798 which marked the end of a Sabbatical is of course the year of judgment on the Papacy when the Pope was taken captive and the civil power of Rome broken.

But if you subscribe to the view that the 2520 years are significant in scripture it's even more interesting. Then there are exactly 360 sabbaticals – the same number as in the days of the 360 prophetic year - between the initial “times of the gentiles” when the Northern Kingdom was broken and taken captive in 723 BC, until the termination in 1798. So I'm inclined to think that Jeff Pippenger has done us more of a service than we've credited him to bring this part of the Millerite chart and the work of Hiram Edson to our attention.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 04:09 AM

The simplicity and symmetry speak eloquently that Sabbatical years are linked to judgment. To summarize the last post: Every significant case of judgment of God's people, 723 BC, 34 AD, and 1798 AD - both Jew and Gentile - occurs on a Sabbatical. And as if to impress this with the divine signature, the over-arching time period, 7 times 360 prophetic days is 2520 years which contain an identical number of 360 sabbaticals.
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 05:18 AM

Is the Jubilee every 50 years or 49?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 05:50 AM

The Seven Trumpets must blast its sound to collapse the spiritual Babylon before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ as the city of Jericho was destroyed on the seventh day at the trumpet blast.

The collapse of the Babylon the great will not occur unless the Seven Trumpets blast its sound. This understanding is supported by the main outline that progresses in a logical, orderly way from beginning to end.

Only the priests are allowed to blow the trumpets in the ancient time. Numbers 10:8 “And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.”

Who would be the modern priests of God that will blow the Seven Trumpets’ messages, if not the sealed of God?

We are told in the introduction of the Seven Trumpets that the investigative judgment will be over swiftly and abruptly, and the probation will be closed forever. The saints of the sealed of God will recognize the scenario of the Seven Trumpets as they reexamine and understand the correct interpretations. The thrilling message of the Seven Trumpets will wake up the remnant church of God to the final Apocalyptic sealing and will enlighten the earth as in Rev. Chap. 18:1

Indeed, Jesus have testified all things in the church for His plan of redemption in the book of Revelation, which the focal setting comes from the sanctuary.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 02:10 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Is the Jubilee every 50 years or 49?

The Jubilee starts on the Day of Atonement ten days after the Feast of Trumpets but it is also announced by a trumpet immediately after the Atonement. It spans the last five lunar months of the old year and the first seven months of the 50th year. So the frequency is every 49 years but because the Jubilee covers the following year, a Sunday year, it's observed in the 50th year. Remember, the religious year runs from the first to the seventh months.

The Jubilee reckoning mirrors Pentecost. The Feast of Firstfruits is the first Sunday after the Passover. Then just as you court seven sabbaticals and then celebrate the Jubilee in the following year, you count 7 weeks and celebrate Pentecost on the following Sunday.

Quote:
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
Furthermore, there have been 62 tetrads since the first century AD and eight of them have coincided with both the feasts.


Eight times in 2000 years isn't what most people think of as a common occurrence. If that was the only sign, I agree it wouldn't be that strong. But if you combine it with the others it's worth taking note that maybe there's something to it. Personally, looking at the signs of the soon return of Christ to me is like looking at the beauties of spring knowing summer is not far away.
It's not the issue of commonness, but reoccurring I had an issue with. And still there's the issue of why eclipses have anything to do with anything. Is there anything that says four eclipses mean something?

And still there's the issue of them not being the same time as the neo-Jews say they are. Could you comment on the new moon, the full moon, and starting the month a couple days later than the new moon which would make the eclipse happening two days prior to when they say the 14/15th is?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/24/14 11:21 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
It's not the issue of commonness, but reoccurring I had an issue with.


That's a valid point. I'll see if I can't do some checking over the next 48 hours on whether Providence historically uses recurring celestial events like eclipses as omens.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 12:17 AM

Outline of the Book of Revelation

The Book of Revelation is the book of visions from God to reveal Jesus to His saints. We must realize that it has a flow of continuous vision with a sequential pattern. The progressions of the visions have a logical relatedness in the order of presentation with a few of elaborative interludes to illustrate the main point, which contributes significance to the overall framework.

The Apostle John bore record of all things that he saw in the visions (Rev. 2:2), which Jesus has testified in the churches (Rev 22:16) and said, “… all the churches shall know”(Rev. 2:23).

The beginning of the visions was church, “John to the seven churches” (Rev. 1:4).
At the end of the vision, He said, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches…” (Rev 22:16).

The Chapter one is about messages to church on ; 1). “things …must shortly come to pass” and “the time is at hand”, 2). “Blessed” ones, 3). Spirit filled in the Lord’s Day.

The Chapter two and three are the things that Holy Spirit speaks to churches. “He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”.

The Chapter four and five are about the judgment of God. Jesus is our Judge (John 5:22), Advocate (1 John 2:1), and Attorney (Rev 1:5). There are four kinds of judgment in the Book of Revelation; 1) Investigative Judgment, 2) Judgment of Verdict, 3) Judgment of Execution, and 4) Judgment of Appraisal.

The Chapter six is about unsealing in the progression of the Investigative Judgment and the seven is about the final apocalyptic sealing.

The Chapter eight through ten are about the blast of the Seven Trumpets by the sealed saints. If not sealed, then he has no part in the blowing of the trumpet.

The Chapter eleven is about the covenant of God. The Ten Commandments in the ark of covenant in the temple indicates the law of God is the standard for judgment.

The Chapter twelve and thirteen are about exposing the identity of Satan who was cast down to earth and persecutes saints with the mark of beast, his number is 666.

The Chapter fourteen is about the 144000 that have the harps to sing a new song.

The Chapter fifteen and the sixteen are about the bowl of the wrath of God, which poured out to cause the noisome and grievous sore, sea and the drinking water turn to blood, sun scorching heat, caused the Papacy to gnawed tongue for pain, caused religions to unite by the river of the Euphrates.

The Chapter 17 and 18 are about the fallen Babylon the Great, which the kings of the earth and the beast served the Pope. But ultimately, they will hate the whore, make her desolate, naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The Chapter 19 is about the White Horse whose vesture dipped in blood comes with the 200 million angels of heaven-the Second Coming of Jesus.

The Chapter 20 is about the review of the Judgment of God.

The Chapter 21 and 22 are about the restored New Heaven and New Earth, and we shall not be able to recall or neither think of the past in our heart.

The starting point was the church on this earth, which is the portal to the church in heaven. Considering this, there is nothing important than church that we must love.
If any one departs church, it will be like fish coming out of water, which death follows immediately. Indeed the visible church on earth is the portal to the New Jerusalem.

The development of the progression in the book of Revelation exhibits a sequential outline, which we see the Seven Trumpets corresponds as the warnings of the coming wrath of God in the Seven Plagues. Only the modern day priests who are sealed will blow the Seven Trumpets’ message that the end of the probation is imminent and people must come out of the Babylon to escape the wrath of God in the Seven Plagues.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 12:29 AM

The NASA site has pages on historic events associated by some with lunar and solar eclipses. Basically there is no correlation. smile

So I respect your views Kland and agree that if the Lord wants to draw attention to this fall, it seems reasonable that he would do something more unusual, like the comet in the shape of a sword that hung over Jerusalem for a year before it was destroyed, or the unparalleled meteor shower of 1833.

To me though it's enough that the Feast of Trumpets is next on the sacred calendar and that we already have the convergence of events and past divine interventions, not so much the blood moons as the evidence compiled by Cahn, indicating that God could begin to loosen the seals and sound the trumpets very soon.

One thing that adds credibility to Cahn's message is he is not just sensational. His calls to repent are reaching many hearts from what I can see. He doesn't have the strength of character of a prophet like John the Baptist but it seems to me the Lord is using him. By showing the connection between the Sabbaticals and judgment Cahn is preparing the church in Babylon for the Sabbath truth.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 12:54 AM

I need to qualify this comment:
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

So I respect your views Kland and agree that if the Lord wants to draw attention to this fall, it seems reasonable that he would do something more unusual, like the comet in the shape of a sword that hung over Jerusalem for a year before it was destroyed, or the unparalleled meteor shower of 1833.
The Lord has revealed to us as Adventists that the cities will suffer great calamities and he's commissioned us to give that warning. If we fail to give it will he put signs in the sky? In the visions given to our prophet she was shown people asking us, "If you knew this was going to happen why didn't you tell us?" There's no mention of omens in the sky. And from her other prophecies of an overwhelming surprise we could be justified in concluding that our silence on the impending doom of the cities may not be rectified by celestial signs. To keep my own conscience clear, I think it's the right thing to support the message of Cahn to the extent it's in harmony with what we know to be true.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 02:12 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
And still there's the issue of why eclipses have anything to do with anything. Is there anything that says four eclipses mean something?


I conceded above that based on the summary data posted by NASA, there is no correlation between eclipses and major historical events such as the rise and fall of world empires as set out in scripture. I'd like to add one more qualifier to that: Blitz and Hagee are applying Joel to the tetrad where it says:
Quote:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joel 2:31.
They claim that significant events have happened to the Jews during the tetrads between the fifteenth and 21st centuries. These points are doubtful because there is no consistent pattern.

But I don't fault them for believing that Joel 2:31 may apply and the return of Christ may be soon. As Adventists that should resonate with us. It's in our name. During this tetrad the moon does have a bloody appearance, the sun will be eclipsed in between as well. And as this is the only time since the crucifixion if not longer that the tetrads fall on the feasts and synchronize with the end of a Sabbatical (see earlier posts on the link between the Sabbatcials and the judgment of God's people) - applying Joel 2 in this way is not such a stretch.

And when you add to that the evidence compiled by Cahn, for example that the stock market's biggest single day losses occured on the last day of the last two Sabbaticals and a host of other divine "coincidences" surrounding 9/11 that also happened at the end of a Sabbatical and the scripture Cahn uses to point to 9/11 as a harbinger of the sounding of a louder warning this fall because we as a nation have not repented, at a minimum, I wouldn't mock at the message.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
. . . And still there's the issue of them not being the same time as the neo-Jews say they are. Could you comment on the new moon, the full moon, and starting the month a couple days later than the new moon which would make the eclipse happening two days prior to when they say the 14/15th is?

The reckoning of the timing of the month by modern Jews is scriptural in my opinion. It's a mathematically calculated average of the sighting of the visible new moon rather than the astronomical conjunction. In contrast to the reckoning of the months, the modern Jews are not always scriptural in their calculation of the feast days but in 2014 and 2015 they are right in my opinion.
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The Jubilee reckoning mirrors Pentecost. The Feast of Firstfruits is the first Sunday after the Passover.
Ah - First Fruits is only the first Sunday after passover IF Passover happens at the right time. The day on which Passover falls changes from year to year, and thus First Fruits is not always a Sunday! The belief that Sunday is honored because of the resurrection ignores the calendar of the feasts. Same with the idea that Pentecost is always a Sunday ignores the calendar of the feasts.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/14 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The Jubilee reckoning mirrors Pentecost. The Feast of Firstfruits is the first Sunday after the Passover.
Ah - First Fruits is only the first Sunday after passover IF Passover happens at the right time. The day on which Passover falls changes from year to year, and thus First Fruits is not always a Sunday! The belief that Sunday is honored because of the resurrection ignores the calendar of the feasts. Same with the idea that Pentecost is always a Sunday ignores the calendar of the feasts.
There's been an ongoing debate among the Jews and also among Christians for centuries on the timing of the Feast of Firstfruits. I agree with the Karaite Jews that according to Lev 23 and other texts, Firstfruits and Pentecost are always on Sunday, that Sunday was observed before the temple was destroyed but that some knowledge of the proper timing of the Feasts was lost afterwards. I looked into this a few years ago and I put my thoughts down in a couple of my ebooks.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/26/14 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
During this tetrad the moon does have a bloody appearance, the sun will be eclipsed in between as well.
Well, it didn't in October. At least not for me. Does only one of the four need to appear "bloody", or all four, or the first, or the last? Does it need to appear so all over the world, one hemisphere, or nearby volcanic eruptions so to give it a reddish cast?

I could not decipher if the tetrads are worldwide or only most of the U.S. and maybe some of Europe.

Quote:
And when you add to that the evidence compiled by Cahn, for example that the stock market's biggest single day losses occured on the last day of the last two Sabbaticals
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time seeing what the stock market has to do with Sabbaticals. One could say it was a forced forgiving of debts, but I believe reality is more people went into (or further into) debt!

Buildings being blown up, people's money not worth so much may indicate one thing, but eclipses coinciding or some ancient Sabbatical coinciding doesn't seem like it could indicate anything to me.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/26/14 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
. . . And still there's the issue of them not being the same time as the neo-Jews say they are. Could you comment on the new moon, the full moon, and starting the month a couple days later than the new moon which would make the eclipse happening two days prior to when they say the 14/15th is?

The reckoning of the timing of the month by modern Jews is scriptural in my opinion. It's a mathematically calculated average of the sighting of the visible new moon rather than the astronomical conjunction. In contrast to the reckoning of the months, the modern Jews are not always scriptural in their calculation of the feast days but in 2014 and 2015 they are right in my opinion.
Mathematical average calculations are scriptural?

Except the full moon would be related to conjunction, right? And therefore, if the new moon is reckoned by sighting, then the full moon cannot be on the 15th, right?

(That it would have to be on the 17th or 18th.)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 12:48 AM

Personally I think the signs forcast in Joel involve something different than the normal recurrence of eclipses.

That said -- I do believe we are in the end of time.

It just seems the futurist crowd is trying to use something quite natural to support their prophetic interpretation which centers on the Jews in Jerusalem and Christ coming to set up a temporal 1000 year kingdom in present day Jerusalem over there in Palestine.


Tetrads (four complete moon eclipses in a row) are fairly commong. Here is a list of them.
They are all tetrads, though only the ones typed in red have all four falling on a feast day. I checked a few of the other ones out and often one or more does fall on a feast day, but not all four.

Also checked some other eclipses where FOUR in a row did all fall on feast days, but one or more of the four were not full eclipses.

According to NASA this century is due for a lot of tetrads (four consecutive total moon eclipses) though not necessarily on a feast day, the most tetrads there has been in all of AD!!


This century:

1. Tetrad: 2003 - 2004

2. Tetrad: 2014 - 2015

3. Tetrad: 2032 - 2033

4. Tetrad: 2043 - 2044

5. Tetrad: 2050 - 2051

6. Tetrad: 2061 - 2062

7. Tetrad: 2072 - 2073

8. Tetrad: 2090 - 2091




Last century there were:

1. Tetrad: 1909 - 1910

2. Tetrad: 1927 - 1928

3. Tetrad: 1949 - 1950

4. Tetrad: 1967 - 1968

5. Tetrad: 1985 - 1986


There were no tetrads in the 1600 - 1800


The 1500's there were six:

1. Tetrad: 1504 - 1505

2. Tetrad: 1515 - 1516

3. Tetrad: 1522 - 1523

4. Tetrad: 1533 - 1534

5. Tetrad: 1562 - 1563

6. Tetrad: 1580 - 1581

That was the reformation period ! Great light and fierce persecution.


The 1400's had four:

1. Tetrad: 1428 - 1429

2. Tetrad: 1457 - 1458

3. Tetrad: 1475 - 1476

4. Tetrad: 1493 - 1494




The 1300's had six:

1. Tetrad: 1305 - 1306

2. Tetrad: 1323 - 1324

3. Tetrad: 1341 - 1342

4. Tetrad: 1352 - 1353

5. Tetrad: 1370 - 1371

6. Tetrad: 1399 - 1400




And then we don't have any at all till the

900's when we have six again:

1. Tetrad: 918 - 919

2. Tetrad: 936 - 937

3. Tetrad: 947 - 948

4. Tetrad: 965 - 966

5. Tetrad: 976 - 977

6. Tetrad: 994 - 995




The 800's had seven:

1. Tetrad: 802 - 803

2. Tetrad: 813 - 814

3. Tetrad: 824 - 825

4. Tetrad: 842 - 843

5. Tetrad: 860 - 861

6. Tetrad: 878 - 879

7. Tetrad: 889 - 890




The 700's had three:

1. Tetrad: 766 - 767

2. Tetrad: 784 - 785

3. Tetrad: 795 - 796




The 600's none.




The 500's none -- Though 534-535 had a four eclipse sequence all falling on feast days BUT were not all total eclipses



The 400's had three:

1. Tetrad: 408 - 409

2. Tetrad: 437 - 438

3. Tetrad: 455 - 456




The 300's had four:

1. Tetrad: 332 - 333

2. Tetrad: 350 - 351

3. Tetrad: 361 - 362

4. Tetrad: 390 - 391




The 200's had six:

1. Tetrad: 227 - 228

2. Tetrad: 238 - 239

3. Tetrad: 245 - 246

4. Tetrad: 256 - 257

5. Tetrad: 267 - 268

6. Tetrad: 285 - 286




The 100's had three:

1. Tetrad: 162 - 163

2. Tetrad: 180 - 181

3. Tetrad: 198 - 199
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
It just seems the futurist crowd is trying to use something quite natural to support their prophetic interpretation . . .

The meteor shower of 1833 was also natural but according to EGW it fulfilled prophecy.

Futurist crowd?

The Lord is full of innovation. If a natural phenomena will work to bring conviction and win souls to righteousness, he'll do it.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 04:10 AM

I don't doubt the power of God or the leading of the holy Spirit, however, there is another "false prophet" active according to Revelation in the last days, who will use signs and wonders to deceive if possible the very elect.

I actually have the book "Four Blood Moons" by John Hagee. I got it because it sounded important, but upon reading it, it was very apparent everything concerning the eclipses was geared to promoting the futurist interpretation of Prophecy.

I don't believe the blood moons are signs that fulfil those prophecies.

It's more likely they are warnings NOT to accept those interpretations.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 04:24 AM

The Moon looks red

Even though the Earth completely blocks sunlight from directly reaching the surface of the Moon, the Moon is still visible to the naked eye during a total lunar eclipse. This is because the Earth's atmosphere refracts sunlight and indirectly lights up the Moon's surface.

What is Earthshine?

The Earth's atmosphere, removes or blocks parts of the sunlight's spectrum leaving only the longer wavelengths. Because of this, a totally eclipsed Moon usually looks red.

Total lunar eclipses happen only when:
◾The Sun, Earth and Moon are in a straight line.
◾There is a full Moon.


Source: timeanddate.com
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 03:33 PM

I found this on Peter Kirk's blog from 2011, Gentle Wisdom:

I was fascinated to read the following, written by David Wilkerson in 1974, and quoted at The Watchman’s Cry Forum in December 2010 – so well before the recent earthquake in Japan (emphasis added by the forum poster, who is probably also responsible for the grammatical oddities):

Earthquakes coming to United States

Quote:
The United States is going to experience in the not-too-distant future the most tragic earthquakes in its history. One day soon this nation will be reeling under the impact of the biggest news story of modern times. It will be coverage of the biggest most disastrous earthquake in history.

It will cause widespread panic and fear, Without a doubt, it will become one of the most completely reported earthquake ever. Television networks will suspend all programming and carry all day coverage.

Another earthquake , possibly in Japan may precede the one that I see coming here. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind about this forthcoming massive earthquake in our continent.

I am not at all convinced that this earthquake will take place in California. In fact, I believe it is going to take place where it is least expected. This terrible earthquake may happen in an area that not known as an earthquake belt. It will be so high on the Richter scale that it will trigger two other major earthquakes.


This is from Chapter 2 of David Wilkerson’s 1974 book The Vision. This is the same David Wilkerson who is best known for his 1963 book The Cross and the Switchblade. He later founded Times Square Church in New York City. I heard him speak in London in 2003. Although nearly 80, he continues to publish daily devotions (using Blogger software, but this is not a blog as comments are not allowed), but has not mentioned Japan recently.

Wikipedia offers a summary of Wilkerson’s prophecies as published in The Vision and elsewhere. Some parts of this have clearly already been fulfilled. These prophecies include the following from March 2009, published among Wilkerson’s daily devotions:

Quote:
AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE – EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.

There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath. …

How should we react to such prophecies? In the past on this blog I have discussed modern day prophecies by Smith Wigglesworth and Sharon Stone. On my understanding, the gift of prophecy today is not primarily about predicting future events. However, I believe that on occasions God does reveal the future to his people, not to satisfy their curiosity, but as warnings and to demonstrate that he is in control of events.
Quote:

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7 (NIV 2011)


Such modern prophecies should not be considered infallible. The prophets, however respected they may be as church leaders, are fallible human beings. Their utterances are not inspired Holy Scripture, not on the same level as the writings of the Old Testament prophetic authors – who were only a few of the many prophets operating in their time.

But when specific prophecies are made and come true, that tends to confirm the prophet and give greater credibility to his or her other prophecies. So it would be right for the people of the USA to take heed of Wilkerson’s warnings for his home country: a massive earthquake following the one in Japan, and major rioting in New York and elsewhere.

These prophecies should be taken as conditional, if the nation does not repent, as was Jonah’s biblical prophecy of the overthrow of one of the greatest cities of his world (Jonah 3:4). Also we don’t know the time scales involved: if the Japan earthquake was nearly 40 years after the prophecy, the US one may be even further in the future. It is wise to be ready, but not to panic. Wilkerson’s 2009 advice is good:
Quote:

I will say to my soul: No need to run…no need to hide. This is God’s righteous work. I will behold our Lord on his throne, with his eye of tender, loving kindness watching over every step I take—trusting that he will deliver his people even through floods, fires, calamities, tests, trials of all kinds.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 03:55 PM

Again, the above post was by Peter Kirk, a non-Adventist. I've reposted it here because I want to introduce the late David Wilkerson, former pastor of Time Square Church, NY, NY, to those who haven't heard of him. Why? Because his vision from 1973 has been and is being accurately fulfilled and it aligns with the present judgment hour message given not by Adventists but by Evangelicals. About a third of Wilkerson's economic predictions were fulfilled in the sub-prime mortgage meltdown of 2008 but the other two thirds will soon follow. Below is a summary of it.

I've followed the ministry of Wilkerson since I read his book, The Cross and the Switchblade in the 80's in my late teens or early twenties. In the last half year I've reviewed his ministry more carefully and I have no doubt that his basic doctrine is sound. He did not have the 7th day Sabbath truth but in the last days the Lord says he will pour out His spirit on all flesh as he gradually makes the full gospel known. Remember, the wise men of the East who knew nothing of the rabbinical traditions were more enlightened than the Sabbath keepers. This history is repeating itself in the remnant church. Wilkerson was a faithful, self-sacrificing servant of God who repeatedly ventured his life for the sake of the gospel and for the glory of God:
Quote:

Summary of Wilkerson’s book, “The Vision”:

An economic collapse is coming

There is a worldwide economic confusion just ahead. In my vision, this is the clearest thing I have seen. Not only is the American dollar headed for deep trouble, but so are all world currencies. I see total economic confusion striking Europe first and then affecting Japan, the United States, Canada, and all other nations shortly thereafter. It is not really a depression I see coming----but a recession of such magnitude it will affect the lifestyle of nearly every wage earner in America and around the world. Countries that now control huge amounts of Western currency are going to be in very deep trouble also, Arab countries will especially be hurt.

Without a doubt, there are lean years ahead full of monetary confusion and despair. How soon is not clear, but it is not far away. The world’s greatest economists will be at a loss to explain the confusion and an international crisis of fear will develop. A  false economic boom will precede the recession---but it will be short lived. 

Bankruptcies of Major Corporations

I believe we are going to witness the bankruptcies of some of this nation's major and most popular corporations. I see tremendous difficulty arising for credit corporations .There are going to be many people unable to pay off their heavy obligations to major credit card companies, causing near-- chaos.

Thousands of small businesses will also be forced into bankruptcies. Three and possibly four, of the major religious denominations will be forced into operate with a skeleton organization due to lack of funds. More than a few churches are going to go bankrupt and a number of independent missionary societies and church organizations are going to have to pull back. All but a few of the radio and television ministries will have to be abandoned.

Tight money will trigger a wave of uncertainty and fear. Those who have money will hold it in reserve.

The United States government is going to "over react" to the confused economical developments. I see a flurry of near panic decisions being made by various government agencies---but these hasty efforts to shore up the economy will backfire.
The President of the United States will make one, and possibly two, national radio and TV appearances to reassure the nation that all is well, and that the best of economic times is just ahead. It will not work. People will distrust these  statements, and their fears will lead to a revolution at the polls. 

The auto industry is going to be hurt badly. Labor leaders are also going to be caught up in this wave of economic confusion. We may soon experience the most devastating strikes of all times. Almost every economic indicator will be gloomy. It will be spotty at first----but will eventually effect nearly all industry.

A New World Monetary System

There will develop a call for  revamping all monetary systems into one uniform system. Be prepared to hear of world trade agreements "policed " by an international governing committees. Strict guidelines for international trade will develop and a "world market" will be closely monitored by big power interest. 


Earthquakes coming to United States

The United States is going to experience in the not-too-distant future the most tragic earthquakes in its history. One day soon this nation will be reeling under the impact of the biggest news story of modern times. It will be coverage of the biggest most disastrous earthquake in history. It will cause widespread panic and fear. Without a doubt, it will become one of the most completely reported earthquake ever. Television networks will suspend all programming and carry all day coverage.

Another earthquake , possibly in Japan  may precede the one that I see coming here. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind about this forthcoming massive earthquake in our continent. I am not at all convinced that this earthquake will take place in California. In fact, I believe it is going to take place where it is least expected. This terrible earthquake may happen in an area that is not known as an earthquake belt. It will be so high on the Richter scale that it will trigger two other major earthquakes.
 
Famine is coming

Snowless winters will bring dismal crop production and famine conditions in central and western Russia, India, Pakistan , all of southeast Asia and Africa will especially hard hit. 
The forty-month drought in Africa and the prolonged dry spell in Brazil will both end temporarily. There will be some relief but conditions will worsen. In Africa, millions will face starvation.

American food reserves will dwindle partially due to drought and flood in this country. Wheat, rice and soybean reserves will be completely exhausted. The demand for corn, rice and wheat will not be met.

The Beginning of Sorrows

Floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and hailstorms will occur more frequently. More than one-third of the United States will be designated a disaster area within the next few years.

Nature will go Wild

Floods, hurricanes and tornadoes will destroy crops, animals and much wildlife driving prices even higher and causing some experts to suggest that nature is losing its balance.

Weather will become increasing difficult to forecast. Sudden storms will appear without warning. Southernmost regions will be gripped by record cold waves and northern areas will experience record heat waves.

Short Periods of Relief

Many men will appear to be repentant during the times of violent chastisement by nature but the short period of relief will make it appear that nature has settled down and men will be comforted by warm sunshine and normal seasonal weather. But more violence, far worse will soon follow.

Airline pilots will be reporting the worst flying conditions in aviation history. The most intense hurricanes are coming. Many parts of the world face the most violent winters of all times. Europe faces the worst winter lashings ever.

Depletion of Relief funds

Relief and disaster funds will become nearly depleted. Insurance companies will face huge losses.

Unlimited funds are not available and the people of each nations will soon learn there will be no one left to turn to but God.

Outbreaks of Epidemics

Mankind faces the threat of new epidemics. There will a major cholera epidemic sweeping through various underdeveloped countries. India and Pakistan face threat of untold thousands dying from epidemics and starvation.

Hailstorms

Large chunks of ice will fall from the sky and cause much damage. These storms will not only destroy crops and smash automobiles but they will also cause the death of many people.
Watch out for reports of intense ice storms and hailstorms in the future. Also prepare for the most severe winter of all time and record snowfalls in the United States and Canada.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 07:15 PM

The SOP describes a respite, a reprieve between the "little time of trouble" and the "great time of trouble". During this time of peace and prosperity God's people will boldly proclaim the 3AM.

Quote:
"The commencement of that time of trouble," here mentioned, does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel.--EW 85, 86 (1854). {LDE 143.2}

The enforcement of Sunday Laws causes the little time of trouble. Thus, the little time of trouble is yet future. However, the ongoing rash of man-made and natural disasters are likely to motivate people and politicians to clamor for Sunday Laws. I am surprised it isn't already Headline News.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 09:38 PM

I don't think we'll have to wait long for what's coming.

Here's a link to a recording of the first time Wilkerson recounted his vision publicly in 1973. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2gBTY70-mY At minute 3 he talks about a new 'natural' phenomena - cosmic fire storms in the sky that leave vapor trails. What does that remind you of?

Most of the sermon is about the fifth sign in the vision - the persecution that's in store for all born again believers.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The SOP describes a respite, a reprieve between the "little time of trouble" and the "great time of trouble". During this time of peace and prosperity God's people will boldly proclaim the 3AM.

I don't think it's a "reprieve" it is simply "holding back" the full fury of it.
We ARE in that time NOW.

When the angels cease to hold -- it's too late.

There is NO temporal kingdom (as one poster thinks) nor a "reprieve" of any form ahead, the time to proclaim the message is NOW.

The reason the Sunday movement isn't receiving more publicity is because Satan will have all his devises in place and will spring the last conflict in one overwhelming surprise.
If he can keep people asleep and thinking the "time to evangelize the world" is yet future long enough, he knows he will have most of the world tied up in his bag.

EGW did speak of the world being in confusion and then a time of peace, followed by more confusion in 1T 268.

I believe that "time of confusion" was the world wars in the 1900's. They were our warning -- we've had 60 some years of reprieve to take the message to the world -- when that confusion strikes again, it will be the last.

"The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith."


Quote:

Transgression has almost reached its limit. Confusion fills the world, and a great terror is soon to come upon human beings. The end is very near. We who know the truth should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise.--Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 28.

Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the word of God, and striving to conform their lives to its precepts. . . . God calls for a revival and a reformation.--Prophets and Kings, p. 626. {ChS 41.3}
A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887. {ChS 41.4}



Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 10:12 PM

At minute 10 on the Wilkerson link I put on my last post Wilkerson describes the coming SuperChurch - a combining of Catholic's and American Protestants. Fascinating detailed description.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/27/14 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

...But when specific prophecies are made and come true, that tends to confirm the prophet and give greater credibility to his or her other prophecies. So it would be right for the people of the USA to take heed of Wilkerson’s warnings for his home country: a massive earthquake following the one in Japan, and major rioting in New York and elsewhere...

Taking heed is good counsel. Much prophecy through EGW has come to pass, confirming her role. Wilkerson's vision echoes both EGW & Biblical warnings, with added detail. He is likely correct.

But note, the Church not only eschewed these warnings for a century, but immersed herself in worldly practices which invite these judgments - stock market, pharmacare, 'higher' education, ecumenism, entertainment, abortion, etc. Cavorting with kings of the earth, and merchants, & shipmasters. The world converted the Church, now bound with cords.
The SDA Church no longer shares the views of Wilkerson; no voice, no protest, no warning.
_____________________________

Wilkerson's 'Japan earthquake' is yet future.
The abundant tsunami footage clearly shows all structures intact - shacks, houses, apartment buildings, roads, bridges, ports - including normal traffic circulation.
Nothing out of place...as the incoming wave engulfs them all.
There is no preceding "earthquake destruction".

Samples:

2011 Japan Tsunami on CCTV (2 min.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noq8FYvRqgs

From office building on coast(6 min.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceym2c18OQM
_____________________________
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/28/14 09:29 PM

The 144,000 are the sealed of God who will blow the Seven Trumpets. We must understand who they are. They are the one who finish the work of the LORD in this last generation (Heb. 11:40). Thus, it is important to differentiate between the great multitudes and the sealed of God, the 144,000.

The people who will go through the Jacob's trouble are indeed very small numbers. The word 'Remnant' denotes that there were numerous prior to the leftover, imperative to the existence of the multitudes in the book of Revelation. Ellen White refers the 144,000 as “the little company” in the time of trouble.
“As Satan influenced Esau to march against Jacob, so he will stir up the wicked to destroy God’s people in the time of trouble. And as he accused Jacob, he will urge his accusations against the people of God. He numbers the world as his subjects; but the little company who keep the commandments of God are resisting his supremacy.” (GC 618.2)

The 144,000 and the multitude are separate groups. The 144,000 as “firstfruits” are sealed from spiritual Israel, the one nation, while the great multitude comes from all nations.
Indeed, the 144,000 are from one nation, one body, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one Holy Spirit, perfectly united. “The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united.”-(EW pg. 15).
They are going to translated alive without seeing death at the second coming. Ellen White indicated eight times about the 144,000, which identified as literal number each time. She said, “the living saints, 144,000 in number…” (EW pg.15)
The multitudes represent all of the redeemed that are resurrected dead by the silver trumpet of the Lord Jesus at the Second Coming.

“Then Jesus’s silver trumpet sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried, “Awake! awake! awake! Ye that sleep in the dust, and arise.” Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, “Alleluia!” as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” (EW 16.1)

It is apparent that only two separate groups of redeemed are exist. 1 Thess. 4:16,17.
Jesus has “in His right hand was a sharp sickle; in His left, a silver trumpet.” (EW 15.2)

The 144,000 sing song that “no one can learn that song”. They are the harpists.
The multitudes, which no one can number, have palm branches in their hand and sing very short song. The 144,000 are a special choir team in heaven (Rev 14:3) and they are placed in the middle of the inner circle of the seven teams in the kingdom of God. *

* Seven Teams of Choir in the Kingdom of Heaven

(1) Throne of God (Rev.19:4-5)
(2) The Four Beasts (Rev. 4:8-9)
(3) The 24 Elders (Rev. 11:16-18)
(4) The 144,000 (Rev. 14:3, 15:2-4)
(5) The Great Multitudes (Rev. 7:9-10)
(6) The Host of Angels (Rev. 5:11-12)
(7) The Universal Beings (Heb. 12:23-24)

The multitudes stand in fifth circle. The 144.000 stand in the fourth circle.
Among the seven teams of heavenly choir, the fourth is in the middle to “serve God day and night in His temple” (Rev. 7:15), just as the choir members in Solomon’s temple (1Chron. 25:7 singers for the morning and evening of 288 divide by 2=144).
Farmers keep a few best seeds for the next crop as the firstfruit, the holy seed.
The living and the dead cannot be the same group just as the palm branches and the harps are two different things. One is for the resurrected dead that come alive and one is for the group that never taste death at the second coming.

The 144,000 will serve God day and night at the temple of God as a choir member but the great multitudes will be displaced in the universe to their own nation to be kings and priests for God. Jesus said, “…the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”. (Matt. 19:28) The multitudes are coming to earth every new moon and every Sabbath to worship God, bringing their glory of the nations.

Isa. 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Rev. 21:24, 26 "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it(earth). And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it(earth)."

When the 144,000 blast their loud cry, the Lord will cause the “ambush” to rise up to bring the Babylon the Great to collapse.

2 Chron. 20:22 “And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.”
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/29/14 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: dedication
It just seems the futurist crowd is trying to use something quite natural to support their prophetic interpretation . . .

The meteor shower of 1833 was also natural but according to EGW it fulfilled prophecy.

Futurist crowd?

The Lord is full of innovation. If a natural phenomena will work to bring conviction and win souls to righteousness, he'll do it.
Reminds me of something to the effect,
...and the cries of their agony of eternally burning torment rings throughout the universe. Repent! Repent now or suffer the torments of hellfire! (as long as it brings in lost souls, does it matter how we go about it)



Mark, I'll pose a question that someone posed to someone else making predictions.

What if 2015 comes and goes and nothing dramatic happens. Where does that leave you?
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/29/14 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
. . . And still there's the issue of them not being the same time as the neo-Jews say they are. Could you comment on the new moon, the full moon, and starting the month a couple days later than the new moon which would make the eclipse happening two days prior to when they say the 14/15th is?

The reckoning of the timing of the month by modern Jews is scriptural in my opinion. It's a mathematically calculated average of the sighting of the visible new moon rather than the astronomical conjunction. In contrast to the reckoning of the months, the modern Jews are not always scriptural in their calculation of the feast days but in 2014 and 2015 they are right in my opinion.
Mathematical average calculations are scriptural?

Except the full moon would be related to conjunction, right? And therefore, if the new moon is reckoned by sighting, then the full moon cannot be on the 15th, right?

(That it would have to be on the 17th or 18th.)

Correction. Make that the Passover would be on the 17th or 18th counting from conjunction. But the full moon would be on the 13th counting the way some do.

Code:
conjuction | 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9|10|11|12|13|PO|FM|16|17|18...
neo Jews         | 1| 2| 3| 4| 5| 6| 7| 8| 9|10|11|12|FM|PO|15|16|17|18...

PO=Passover
FM=Full Moon
The full moon stays the same no matter how one numbers it.
Could you comment on this as to how it fits with what you're saying about eclipses and Passover. The full moon cannot be on the 15th if you start numbering after conjunction.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/31/14 01:03 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
What if 2015 comes and goes and nothing dramatic happens. Where does that leave you?


Cahn and Wilkerson and the prophets before them all gave conditional warnings. They made calls to repentance that if heeded averted the threatened judgments. I hope myself that nothing deadly happens. God is long-suffering and repeatedly spares entire cities and nations. He holds back the winds of strife for the sake of the few who repent and turn to him. And he holds back the same winds for the sake of those who would be lost if they faced the crises with compromised, weak and unrepentant characters. God help us all to see ourselves as we are and to seek him and be reconciled to him and to each other now while we're able.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/31/14 01:25 AM

Kland regarding the timing of the new moon, my understanding is that the modern Jews are basically scriptural in their methods. As far as I can recall, their method is to estimate the first visible new moon mathematically because it is impractical to wait each month for sightings. In the same way that Adventist have sunset calendars because we can't go by the visible sunset due to the weather and other variables such as mountain terrain, it's appropriate to calculate the start of the months.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/31/14 07:33 PM

I'm not disputing whether or not they are scriptural in their methods. What I'm asking you is how can their methods of 2 days after possibly coincide with the full moon/eclipse?

Maybe I'm not explaining this clear which is why you keep talking about scriptural methods. It seems clear to me. Do you see from my chart, that regardless of whether one calls the second line scriptural or not, the Full Moon cannot possibly fall on what they call the 15th? The full moon and eclipse would occur prior to that.

Maybe an example? Wikipedia lists one of the blood moon tetrads as being on April 4, 2015.

The new moon is early March 20th, 2015.
They say it is the 22nd.
The full moon is early morning on April 4, 2015.
Which would be the 14th day.

Which does sound right on. But I think there is an off-by one error. Take two days and split them across another day and it's close.

If the 20th is day 1, then day 14 would be April 2.
But is that at sunset on April 1, or April 2?

If the 22nd is day 1, then day 14 would be April 4.
Sunset?

For the U.S., the full moon occurs in the early morning of April 4 which is when the eclipse happens.

Can you help sort this out? I think it's off a day. But I may have confused myself. Because if you don't start counting the days until the day after conjunction, it comes close, a day off from what they do. Is passover the evening of April 3, or the evening of April 4? So if you don't start counting until a day after conjunction, and if they start it the day before, then you would have a match. Help....
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/01/15 01:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
If the 22nd is day 1, then day 14 would be April 4.
Sunset? . . . Is passover the evening of April 3, or the evening of April 4? So if you don't start counting until a day after conjunction, and if they start it the day before, then you would have a match. Help....


According to what you've shared, the Rabbis are saying Passover is the evening of April 4. Passover starts at the end of the 14th (April 4) a little before sunset and the celebration continues on into the evening which at sundown becomes the 15th. So in order for the eclipse to be on the Passover, it needs to happen, as it does this year, (well, almost this year, Happy New Year) in the hours between sundown on the 3rd (the beginning of the 14th day) and sundown on the 4th (the end of the 14th day.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/02/15 03:25 AM

Karen, regarding the sealing, the rabbis teach, and I agree with them, that this takes place on the Day of Atonement.

The Feast of Trumpets fell on the first day of the seventh Hebrew month. It's purpose was to announce the approach of the Day of Atonement ten days later. It was to prepare the nation for this most holy day of the sacred calendar. Both modern and ancient Jews teach that Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, is the day of reckoning when a person's destiny is fixed. It is a day of judgment and sealing. So, the question we need to ask is, “What if the Lord sees fit to fulfill the Feast of Trumpets this coming fall? What then?” If this happens it implies that earth's final hour of judgment typified by Day of Atonement begins ten days later. See Leviticus 16 and Revelation 14:6 and 7.

But is this all gloom and doom? Not at all. The opposite is true. Just as Pentecost marked the start of the gospel era with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, in the same way, the Day of Atonement this fall could mark the start of the final cleansing of the church; the time of sealing and atonement when sins are blotted out at the final outpouring of the Holy Spirit foretold by the prophet Joel and the Apostle Peter:

Quote:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Act 3:19 – 21.


Quote:
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joe 2:28-32.


Notice what Peter is saying: Repent now, today during the early rain so that you'll be ready for the refreshing of the latter rain when sins are blotted out and after which Christ will immediately come.

Speaking of that final period of cleansing and atonement the prophet Malachi states:

Quote:
The Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts. But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap: and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer unto Jehovah offerings in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto Jehovah, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against the false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the sojourner from his right, and fear not me, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 3:1-5. ASV.

For those who are “poor in spirit” and longing for righteousness, the sudden arrival of the messenger of the Covenant is the best possible news. Why? This messenger announces the final liberation and blotting out of sin of God's people. In Revelation 14:6 and 7 the same messenger of the covenant suddenly appears with the same announcement: “the hour of His judgment is come!” But notice that the announcement of the judgment, the final atoning and cleansing of the Church, is termed the “everlasting gospel” - wonderful news to the humble and the meek. But for the unrepentant nothing could be more unwelcome. We have an inkling of the violent reaction against that message by the content of the two messages that follow:

Quote:
And another, a second angel, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that hath made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14:8 – 10.


But for the poor in spirit the call to repentance and the blotting out of sin at the time of the latter rain is the gospel in verity.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/02/15 03:50 AM

Karen, besides the message of Peter that we are sealed by the latter rain when our sins are blotted out (and of course we need to have repented of them beforehand in order for them to be blotted out), Zechariah has the same idea. He says that in the latter days the men of Judah (renewed believers) will have victory over sin first so that the inhabitants of Jerusalem (Adventist believers) do not boast over their brethren. smile
Quote:
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/04/15 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Karen, regarding the sealing, the rabbis teach, and I agree with them, that this takes place on the Day of Atonement.


Hi Mark,

Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law”.

One another theme of the book of Revelation is about the judgment of God.

Rev. Chap. 1 – 7 : Investigative Judgment (pertained to the saints)
Rev. Chap. 8 – 14 : Judgment of Verdict (pertained to the wicked)
Rev. Chap. 15 – 19 : Judgment of Execution (pertained to the wicked)
Rev. Chap. 20 – 22 : Reviewing the Judgment (pertained to the saints)

If people pass the investigative judgment of God, which progresses in heaven right now, they would have no worries because the Lamb of God prevailed for His saints.

“And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.” Rev. 5:5

The investigative judgment has begun when Jesus has entered the Most Holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.
Dan. 8:14 “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Dan. 7:10 “A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

The investigative judgment exists prior to the close of probation. The close of probation is depicted in the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation. Rev. 8:5 “And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”

The Seven Trumpets have prophetic allusion from the feast of the Trumpets as the function of the warning for the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. Therefore, I would say that the Seven Trumpets are present and future since the Anti-typical Day of Atonement has not come to the end yet.

I can say the least that the apocalyptic sealing of the 144,000 is in progression during this Anti-typical Day of Atonement. Understandably, sealing comes after the investigation of individual’s life that are worthy. What God has revealed to us already is that the investigative judgment has begun when Jesus has entered the most holy place in heavenly sanctuary in 1844 and the sealing has been going on ever since.

We take a glance on the flow of the events in the book of Revelation, which will give us understanding what is the purpose of the Seven Trumpets.

*There must be a judgment prior to the sealing of God.
The Seven Churches (Rev. Chap. 1-3) will be judged (Investigative Judgment in Chap. 4-5) prior to the Seven Sealing (Chap. 6-7).

*There has to be exposing ID prior to the Seven Plagues.
The Seven Trumpets (Chap. 8-11) will expose the identity of Satan (Chap. 12-14) prior to the Seven Plagues (Chap. 15-16)

*The Babylon the great falls prior to the Second Coming.
The collapse of the Babylon (Chap. 17-18) will happen prior to the Second coming of Jesus (Chap. 19).

*After reviewing the judgment, the new heaven and new earth will be restored.
During the millennium (Chap. 20), we will review the judgment of God, then the New Heaven and New Earth restore (Chap. 21-22).

Despite the warnings of the Seven Trumpet, if people do not repent but blaspheme God, they will receive the wrath of God in the Seven Plagues. The Seven Trumpets must blast the sound that the close of the probation is imminent by the sealed people of God. The next Chap. 12, 13 and 14 are exposing the identity of Satan who is the fallen star (Chap. 12) from heaven and that has the direct linkage to the papacy (Chap. 13). The Satan attacks the law of God, especially the Sabbath (Chap. 14). This “Loud Cry” of the Seven Trumpets brings the judgment of the Seven Plagues (Chap. 15-16), which culminates the fall of the Babylon (Chap. 17-18) and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Chap. 19).
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/05/15 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
If the 22nd is day 1, then day 14 would be April 4.
Sunset? . . . Is passover the evening of April 3, or the evening of April 4? So if you don't start counting until a day after conjunction, and if they start it the day before, then you would have a match. Help....


According to what you've shared, the Rabbis are saying Passover is the evening of April 4. Passover starts at the end of the 14th (April 4) a little before sunset and the celebration continues on into the evening which at sundown becomes the 15th. So in order for the eclipse to be on the Passover, it needs to happen, as it does this year, (well, almost this year, Happy New Year) in the hours between sundown on the 3rd (the beginning of the 14th day) and sundown on the 4th (the end of the 14th day.)
I'm having a little trouble understanding. The end of the 14th or the beginning of the 14th?

But what I've found out, although the average number of days in a month is 29.5, it can vary almost a whole day. During April, it was something like 29.14. So, I thought let's look at other times.

Last night, January 4th before midnight, was the full moon.
The new moon was a little after sundown on the 21st of December.
Counting the 21st as day 1 (midnight reckoning), January 4 would be the 15th day, of which the full moon happens a bit before midnight.

They say the new moon is the 24th of December, though some have said it is the 23rd. Going with the 23rd puts day 14 at January 5. Of which, depending on what you meant above, could work out. I just can't help thinking something is off here. And their "schedule" seems to change at who's doing it.

So looking at this past October, the new moon was early September 24th a little after midnight. October 8, early in the morning, was the full moon/eclipse which was day 15. They say the new moon was September 26. Their day 14 puts it at October 9. Even if you start at sunset the day before, it is past the eclipse of early morning October 8.

Am I missing something here or miscounting something?
And why isn't it day 15? Or is it the 15th day for October, and the 14th for April?
I just think something doesn't line up here.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/07/15 08:29 PM

Then I was looking at locations from timeanddate.com and see that Jerusalem is not going to experience at least one of the eclipses. Thinking of it, I think dedication might have brought that up.

Some questions come to mind that I think need answers.

"Tetrad (astronomy), an occurrence of 4 total lunar eclipses in a row with intervals of 6 lunations (semester)."
"In astronomy, a tetrad is a set of four total lunar eclipses within two years."

1) Who gets to come up with what a tetrad is? What if it was with 7 lunations over 3 years? That is, Why does four eclipses on certain Jewish holy days mean anything? Why does four within two years mean something? Should it mean something with the first one, the last one? Why wouldn't just one eclipse on a special one, maybe the day of atonement, mean more than on others?

Along with that, what if the days don't completely align up as stated in my previous post? Just as long as it's close? What I'm asking is, would you have noticed anything if no one was marketing it? Are they marketing it truthfully, that you would come to the same conclusions, or are they trying to sell books?

2) What does, turned to "Blood", mean? Now if it had said the moon would be darkened, or dimmed, I would agree. But did the past eclipses even begin to remind you of blood, or even "red"?

3) Should these eclipses be worldwide, or only over certain locations? Should they be total, or how about mostly? The darkened color is the same for a 75% eclipse. What about a total eclipse but the moon sets before it's fully seen?

In other words, there may be more "tetrads" or otherwise eclipses on certain days at certain locations occurring quite more frequently than the marketed ones. Are some locations more important than other locations? Some answers need to validate why some are important over others. I know one James who had said basically no one should care about the southern hemisphere in his predictions.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/08/15 04:40 AM

The seven bowl angels are about to come forth to execute their mission of the seven plagues upon the earth.
We are told that the Seven angels of the trumpets stood before the throne of God to watch the investigative judgment with intense concern.

Finally the seventh seal opened and the heaven becomes awfully silent in awaiting development of the next event, which is literal judgment of the seven last plagues.
The remnant of the sealed of God blast the Seven Trumpets of prediction which foretell the events of the Seven Plagues before the close of probation. The indication of scenario is clearly depicted by the judgment of the seven trumpet which prepared to sound after the cast of the incense (Rev. 8:5).

It is very evident that the Seven Plagues intimately linked with the Seven Trumpets.

Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/08/15 05:08 AM

There is a voice from the temple in the sixth trumpet to loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates (Rev. 9:14) and then the angel of the sixth bowl pours out the plague upon the great river Euphrates (Rev. 16:12). The armies of the Lord (Rev. 19:14), which are numbered “two hundred thousand thousand” (Rev. 9:16) are commissioned to slay “the third part of men” (Rev. 9:15) of the earth dwellers (Rev. 8:13).

The intensity of the plague by the fire, the smoke and the brimstone is depicted as “the heads of the horses were as the heads of Lions” (Rev. 9:17) in their ferocity. We are told that the three unclean spirits are working miracles,and gather the whole world together to the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14), inevitably which ushers themselves into punishment of the sixth plague. So to unlock the sixth plagues, we must pair up the fire to unclean spirit of the dragon, the smoke to unclean spirit of the beast, and the brimstone to unclean spirit of the false prophets.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/08/15 04:57 PM

Quote:
the judgment of the seven trumpet which prepared to sound after the cast of the incense (Rev. 8:5).
What does that mean to you, casting the incense?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/09/15 05:24 AM


The Seventh Seal is broken to introduce the final drama of the great tribulation.

Keep in mind why John wept much initially for the unbroken seals in Chap. Five.

Now the seal is broken and the investigative judgment completed. The probation has closed. No wonder that there is awful silence in heaven for half an hour in awaiting of next development of event.

In the flashback of the redemtption story, the seven angels are given the seven trumpets who stood by before God to watch the investigative judgment of the Chap. Five. There were ten thousand times ten thousand angels in attendance (Dan. 7:10) in the judgment. Another angel came and stood to officiate at the golden altar. We know that this is none other than Jesus, because no angel is known to offer incense with the prayers of saints to make them acceptable to God.
Jesus has a golden censer as our High Priest in heaven. The smoke of the incense is the prayers of the saints (Rev. 5:8). The Angel took the censer, and filled it with the fire of the altar, and emptied it upon the earth. The prayers went up to the Father, and judgment came down, which depicted as “and there were thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake.” The final storm breaks at last! The wrath of God poured out in the Seven Plagues when the Angel casts the incense.

The Seven Trumpets are the warning messages that are forecasted of the Seven Plagues. I think that our minds are so indoctrinated with an historical application and always looking to place events into a timeline that brings so much speculation and misinterpretation. If we keep our minds in the
perspective of redemption of God to interprete the Book of Revelation using the sanctuary message as a key, we may clearly see the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/09/15 06:25 PM

Hard to determine if you answered my question or not.

Would you say the 7 trumpets are a warning, but warning to whom?
Quote:
Re 9:21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Doesn't seem like a warning to me. Seems more like a war trumpet.


And what does this mean:
Quote:
Re 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/13/15 06:01 AM

Quote:
"The perils of the last days are upon us, and in our work we are to warn the people of the danger they are in. Let not the solemn scenes which prophecy has revealed be left untouched. If our people were half awake, if they realized the nearness of the events portrayed in the Revelation, a reformation would be wrought in our churches, and many more would believe the message. We have no time to lose… Maranatha Jan. 15, 2015 pg 23


Quote:
1 Cor. 14:8 "For if the trumpet give an ucertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"


Jesus showed the throne room to Apostle John in vision and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" (Rev. 4:5)

The people of God who are sealed may also foreseen the throne of God where the "lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" (Rev. 11:19) proceed. There is no indication that earth dwellers have received such punishments in this seventh trumpet as to the Seven Plagues, which men on earth "blasphemed God because of the plague…; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Rev. 16:21)

Therefore, we are told that the Seventh Trumpet is foretelling the end of "It is done" (Rev. 16:17) that "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD , and of his Christ; (Rev. 11:15).

The "lightnings, thunderings, and voices, earthquakes and great hails" are the punishments that made known to unrighteous who break the covenant of God.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets".
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/13/15 03:55 PM

The main two purposes of the spring and fall feasts are to teach the plan of salvation and to provide the prophetic template for all of God's major interventions in human history. Brothers and sisters the spring feasts are fulfilled right? What about the fall? We are hard pressed to find a fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets in 1833 to 1844 although some of the brethren venture to strain the application that far and see a partial fulfillment there. But the trumpets will meet their complete fulfillment soon.

For centuries devout Jews have sent a family member to the door of the home on Passover to welcome Elijah. When he doesn't appear they say "maybe next year". All Jonathan Cahn is saying is "maybe this fall", not for Elijah, but for the next big move of God which is the trumpets that announce that "the hour of His judgment is come" - referring of course to the Day of Atonement ten days later. We desensitized Adventists, don't see it. Bless the Lord though that many non-Adventists realize this could be it and are turning to him and preparing for the storm of persecution that will burst on us by cleansing their hands and purifying their hearts.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/13/15 04:13 PM

Speaking of Elijah, Ed Reid, author of Sunday's Coming and books on money management, claims that the ministry of John the Baptist was only six months. I was skeptical when I first heard him say that but if he's right that it was that short, what is the lesson for us? Noah preached for 120 years but the Elijah message at the end may well be "cut short in righteousness".
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/15/15 11:40 PM

Friends, bear with me while I suggest we could expect to see dramatic changes in the course of human history even sooner than this fall. I pointed out above that this year, a biblical Sabbatical, is the first time in over 2000 years to synchronize with a blood moon tetrad that falls on the biblical feasts, so it's something we want to watch. I suggested it could, (not must, but could,) portend the fulfillment of the fall feasts. But I haven't stopped studying the things we're discussing here. Let me run by you all one more thought.

I reviewed Ezekiel's temple vision recently (Eze 40-48) and it struck that this vision shows the glory of God returning to the temple on the 10th day of the first month, Nissan, which is in early to mid April on our calendar. This is the same day that the Passover lamb was set aside and was also the last day of grace, according to Christ and Ellen White, for the Holy City because on this day Jerusalem, through its leaders, rejected Christ as it's King.
Quote:
It was on the first day of the week [This is the tenth day of Nissan] that Christ made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. . .When the fast westering sun should pass from sight in the heavens, Jerusalem's day of grace would be ended. . . . There comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. . . . That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but He could not deliver her. {DA 569.3, 577.3 & 587.2}

So both the departure and return of the glory of God to the temple are linked to the 10th of Nissan. This is also confirmed by the prophecy of Joel that the latter rain will be given in the first month.
Quote:
Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. Joel 2:23.

So God's next major intervention, His manifestation of the sovereign Presence among His people, may be closer than we think. This year Nissan 10 begins the evening of March 29. The Sabbatical year begins ten days earlier on Nissan 1. That's 60 days away. This is not to say it will happen this spring but that it could. The Orthodox Jews may be closer to the truth than we think in sending a child to the door of the home at Passover to welcome Elijah. This year, Passover will witness a blood moon.

But the thought that the latter rain may be that close - - to me that's potentially the best possible news.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/16/15 01:16 PM


The binding claims of the law of God exhibited in the open temple of God with “lightnings, thunderings, voices, earthquakes and great hails” in the Seventh Trumpet. (Rev. 11:19).

You may also observe this vision in Rev. 4:5 where the judgment is opened in the throne of God. "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: …"

The Seventh Trumpet is announcing the punishment of the Seventh Plague, which the effect is actually displayed as such of a mighty earthquake that made “every island fled away, and the mountains were not found’ and “men blasphemed God”. (Rev. 16:18-21).

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/16/15 02:31 PM

Who is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name is Abaddon or Apollyon? (Rev. 9:1-11).

Eventually, isn’t he the one who will be bound in the bottomless pit for the thousand years thus he should deceive the nations no more?

In Rev. 20:7 tell us that “and when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.” The Bible interprets itself. The angel of the bottomless pit is none other than the Devil, the Satan, which he will be shut in and set a seal upon him for the thousand years. He caused Jesus our Lord to shut in the tomb and sealed. Matt. 27:64-66 “Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, …made the sepulcher sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.”

When the Satan is out of the bottomless pit, he is going to do what he is known to do; deceiving others. (Rev. 20 :8, 3).

We are told that he “was given the key of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), which indicates that he deceives the nations with a system of false teaching. He causes the smoke to come out of the bottomless pit, which will darkened the sun and the air ( Verse 2) by his false doctrine.

The Devil also torments men that “men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them” (verse 6) but he is not allowed to “hurt those men who have the seal of God in their foreheads (verse 4).

Rev. 18:6 “Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.” God will deal with the Devil the same way because he tormented others he will be tormented.

Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The Satan has direct linkage to the Papacy, which he works through the false system of religion. Therefore the fifth trumpet is warning for the fifth plague that will pour upon the “seat of the beast” (Rev. 16:10) which his kingdom becomes full of darkness and be tormented as to “gnawed their tongues for pain”.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/16/15 06:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
For centuries devout Jews have sent a family member to the door of the home on Passover to welcome Elijah. When he doesn't appear they say "maybe next year". All Jonathan Cahn is saying is "maybe this fall", not for Elijah, but for the next big move of God which is the trumpets that announce that "the hour of His judgment is come" - referring of course to the Day of Atonement ten days later.

I'd go along with that, maybe things will start this year, but if not, maybe next year.
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Friends, bear with me while I suggest we could expect to see dramatic changes in the course of human history even sooner than this fall. I pointed out above that this year, a biblical Sabbatical, is the first time in over 2000 years to synchronize with a blood moon tetrad that falls on the biblical feasts, so it's something we want to watch.
But it doesn't. That's what I've been trying to say, and I thought you agreed at your previous posts. There is no "blood" moon. There is a dim or dark moon. The same color or lack of color as occurs in other arbitrary numbers of sequences other than "four". It doesn't "coincide" except only partially in some places. And "tetrad" seems to be an arbitrary thing. For instance, if it's 4 eclipses in a row, consider 2018/2019.
http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list.html
But someone decided that there should be 6 months between them.


Quote:
This year, Passover will witness a blood moon.
No, not really. I understand Jerusalem won't even see the eclipse. Eastern US will only see a partial eclipse for a very short time.
http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/in/usa/charleston-wv
In fact, April 4 is called a "partial lunar eclipse" and not "total".
http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list.html

Quote:
But the thought that the latter rain may be that close - - to me that's potentially the best possible news.
That could very well be true. But nothing to do with eclipses, an arbitrary number of eclipses, nor an arbitrary number of eclipses falling on certain days on certain parts of the world, of which Jerusalem, Africa, Europe... is not included.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/16/15 06:48 PM

Actually, I see that 6 months between is part of why they would be in a row. Still, consider 2018/2019. 6 months apart. Just the partial is "more" partial than in 2015. Is it a matter of quantifying partiality?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/17/15 03:07 AM

Kland, according to the US Naval Observatory, (the leading authority on astronomy besides NASA in North America) the April 4, 2015 lunar eclipse is total: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/eclipse/L2015Apr04.pdf. It will be seen as total in Hawaii, Alaska, New Zealand, eastern Russia, parts of Asia and Australia and as a partial eclipse across North America and much of Asia.

I learned just now from the same site that a total solar eclipse will occur March 20, 2015, about sixty days from now. Here's a map of it's coverage: http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/eclipse/0112015/. The evening of March 20 is Nissan 1, the start of the Sabbatical year. It would be interesting to know how often a total solar eclipse occurs at the eve of a Sabbatical year with a tetrad falling on the feasts. This eclipse will be visible as a partial eclipse across most of North Africa, Europe, the Middle East and Northern Asia.

I also learned that another partial solar eclipse will occur on the eve of the Feast of Trumpets, September 13, 2015. http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/eclipse/0322015/. This one is visible in the southern part of Africa and the southern Indian Ocean.

Regarding your comment Kland that the lunar eclipse this March isn't visible from Jerusalem, since the day of grace for Jerusalem ended in 31 AD on Nissan 10 (see my first post on my Nissan 10 thread and reply there Kland if possible), the signs in the heavens aren't restricted to the modern Jews or a physical location. The signs are for the scattered people of God around the globe. The dark day and the falling of the stars in 1833 were not limited to the Middle East right?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/19/15 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

The Satan has direct linkage to the Papacy, which he works through the false system of religion. Therefore the fifth trumpet is warning for the fifth plague that will pour upon the “seat of the beast” (Rev. 16:10) which his kingdom becomes full of darkness and be tormented as to “gnawed their tongues for pain”.


The dragon gave his seat to the first beast in Chap. 13. "And the beast which I saw was like ufo a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Rev. 13:2

Jesus has revealed to us that He knows "where Satan's seat is" (Rev. 2:13). The fallen star, Satan, has his seat at the Papacy whom the world "worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (Rev. 13:4).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/19/15 03:16 PM

What is the great and final Armageddon conflict? Why is the three unclean frog-like spirits come out of the mouths of the dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet?

Isn't the Armageddon conflict where the unclean spirits meet one another in an attempt to settle the final issues?

We are told that the demonic delusions already unleashing the world into darkness of the fifth trumpet and intensifies in the sixth trumpet. The Devil and his agents have their purpose to deceive the nations and all the nations say "who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13:4).
Their individual name is Abaddon or Apollyon (Rev. 9:11), but in their union their name become Armegeddon. (Rev. 16:16).

With this in mind, if we collect all the various meanings in the Old Testament that have been attributed to the word “Armageddon” we may observe the meaning of the battle of Armegeddon.

Notice that the battle of Armageddon occurs by the river Euphrates (Rev. 16:12). The king Josiah was killed in the Meggedo by the river Euphrates. (2 King 23:25,29). Thus, the Armageddon and Meggido interrelated by the river Euphrates.

We also may discover that the valley of Megiddo is interrelated with valley of Jehoshaphat. Thus, the Armageddon is interrelated with the valley of Jehoshaphat too.

Zechariah 12:11 “In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mouring of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.” Zechariah 12:11 describes Megiddo as a “valley.”

There is a triangular correlation between the Armageddon-Meggido-Jehoshaphat.


Joel 3:2 “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.” "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." Joel 3:2, 12 describes “valley” of Jehoshaphat as a place of “judgment”.

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." (Joel 3:14)

King Josiah also died Megiddo, when he oppose Pharaoh Neco. This is the reason why there was “a great mourning in Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:11).
2 Chron. 35:22 “Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.”

2 King 23:25, 29 “And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. In his days Pharaoh-nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.”

Egyptian king, Pharaoh Necho, was determined to wage war against Assyria. The Egyptian army marched to attack the Assyrian army but the King Josiah went against the Pharaoh. Necho said that he was sent by God to fight against another army. King Neco also informed King Josiah that he should not interfere with his battle plans because the Lord was on his side and demanded that he go through the land peacefully. In the plains of Meggido the king Josiah was killed, which mourned by the entire people of God. King Josiah is "type" of people of God in the last day.
John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

We are told that the judgment of God took place in a valley of Jehoshaphat and God delivered Israelite from the children of Moab, and Ammon, which was by the river of Euphrates. As a result, this significant event changed the name of the Meggido to the valley of Jehoshaphat.

In the battle of the Armeggedon the three unclean spirits will unite 1). to kill God’s people, which the king “Josiah” was “type” and 2) to oppress God's people but God will rescue His people by bringing His judgement to bear on them.

“Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. ... Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of Spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; ... they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God.” (Great Controversy, pp. 561-562)

Judges 5:19 “The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.”

There was “no gain of money” in the Megiddo. We must consider what this might mean in the battle of Armegeddon. The world is in a great battle of economy without boundaries or weapons of war in these days. Many people attempt to rise to the top to gain money. However, in the battle of Armeggedon, the Scriptures teach us that the Satan has reached his full accomplishment to deceived masterfully that there will be no gain of money at the end. "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three-score and six." (Rev. 13:18). The Papacy has almost all the gold of the world and they can manipulate the "gain of money" to nothing. They use IBRD (International Bank for Reconstruction and Development) and IMF (International Monetary Funds) to control and to enforce the mark of beast to all the world.

Those who tries to make money unaware of the scheme often end up in the casualty in the battle field of this Armeggedon by suicide in their hopelessness. We must watch and pray that we may "escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares." (Luke 21:36, 34)

1) Megiddo-----alluded in Rev 13 - the beast powers oppress God's people with powers of economy, religion, politic.
2) Jehoshaphat----- alluded in Rev 14 - three angels messages (Judgment)
3) Armageddon -----spiritual battle in Rev 16 - gathering the kings of the earth

What kind of events occur in Migeddo/Armageddon?
1') Megiddo------Rev 13:16; the mark of the beast enforced /unable to buy or sell
2') Jehoshaphat-------Rev 14:7; call to worship the Creator/hour of judgment has come
3') Armageddon------Rev 16:16;Activities of three unclean spirits/kings of the earth gathered together into a climax battle of Armageddon with God's remnant.

The real battle is about the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast.
The purpose of the harlot is:
1) in Rev 13 is to give the mark of the beast on forehead and hand.
2) in Rev 14 is to hinder the true worship of God that is portrayed by 3 angels messages.
3) in Rev 16 is to make their powers strong to come against SDA by gathering the kings of
the earth.
The harlot attempts:
1") Rev 13 -- Economy; caused all to receive mark of the beast not the Seal of God

2") Rev 14 - Judgement; harlot is against the commemoration of creation and salvation of God
3") Rev 16 - Three religious powers united in bundles(Matt 13:30) but to receive the plagues.

The shadows of Armageddon are overspread the earth already. They gathered them together into the situation that is called in the Hebrew, Armageddon. Let us proclaim the sound of the Seven Trumpets that the inhabiters of the earth may escape the last plagues!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/20/15 03:31 AM


Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Correction ; alluded to depicted, 
 to omit*
* I don't understand why it has replaced to wrong word and numbers when I copied and pasted it to post.

1) Megiddo-----depicted in Rev 13 - the beast powers oppress God's people with powers of economy, religion, politic.
2) Jehoshaphat----- depicted in Rev 14 - three angels messages (Judgment)
3) Armageddon -----spiritual battle in Rev 16 - gathering the kings of the earth

The real battle is about the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast.
The purpose of the harlot is:
1) in Rev 13 is to give the mark of the beast on forehead and hand.
2) in Rev 14 is to hinder the true worship of God that is portrayed by 3 angels messages.
3) in Rev 16 is to make their powers strong to come against SDA by gathering the kings of the earth.
The harlot attempts 1") Rev 13 -- Economy; caused all to receive mark of the beast not the Seal of God
2") Rev 14 - Judgement; harlot is against the commemoration of creation and salvation of God
3") Rev 16 - Three religious powers united in bundles(Matt 13:30) but to receive the plagues.

Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/20/15 04:37 AM

The Armageddon battle is a spiritual warfare in the “valley of decision”.

Are we there yet at the “Mount of the Megiddo” where 1) the oppression of people on the earth; 2) the judgment of God in progress in heaven; and 3) the three unclean spirits are in union together?

What are we waiting for while the fullness of the sixth plague is almost poured out upon the earth? Are we waiting for the Sunday Law to come? The Seven last Plagues are already falling upon the earth! The Sunday Law will arrive upon the inhabiters of the earth because of the plagues. We must set the messages in the right order.

“The wicked thought that we had brought the judgment upon them, and they rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed.” (EW 33.2).

The wicked enforce the mark of beast to “rid the earth of us” because the Seven Plagues are falling. “Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.” (Luke 21:26). The wicked think that the evil would stop if they get rid the earth of us with the mark of the beast.

1)Megiddo --- economy issues in the battle (economy turmoil)---present event
2) Armageddon--- threefold religious union of the unclean spirits---present event
3) Jehoshaphat ---God's judgment in heaven-------------present event

Rev. 18:4 "…Come out of her, my people, that ye be not prtakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

"These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy." Maranatha pg. 267

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us." Maranatha pg. 257

The time is short. We have no time to lose! Let the church wake up with the Seven Trumpet sound!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/23/15 06:45 AM

Seven Thunders

What are the seven thunders? We are told that it was as loud voice “as when a lion roureth” (Rev. 10:3).

There was a “noise of thunder” in Rev. 6:1 because one of the four beasts, which were depicted as a lion, has roared.

Rev. 4:7 “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

Why did the first beast of the lion roared in the first seal? Isn’t the first seal portrays Apostles preaching the coming of the Lord Jesus and resulted “to conquering, and to conquer”? (Rev. 6:2).

Their proclamation of the Second Coming of Jesus was indeed like “noise of thunder”, which is also the blessed hope for the successive Christian Eras.

The Seven Thunders has appeared between the sixth and the seventh trumpet to illustrate the importance of discovering the Sabbath truth in the Advent Movement that roared like thunders.

This company was given a commission to restore the Sabbath truth that said, “Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.” (Rev. 10:11).

The noise of the thunders has voiced every period of the seven churches, especially at the time of 1844, which soared their hope.

Nevertheless, the angel instructed John not to write the noise of the Seven Thunders of hope of the Second Coming of Jesus. It was not the time yet.
Not until, “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants thy prophets.” (Rev. 10:7).

Remember, what Jesus has said,
Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

“The mystery of God” (Rev. 10:7) is the time of the Second Coming of Jesus, which was “declared to his servants thy prophets” already. It wa s just not yet his coming point at the Chapter ten experiences. Thus we know that why we are told, “seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.” (Rev. 10:4) until re-prophesy the last message.

The Seven Thunders will be known when “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. “ (Rev. 10:7), (Amos 3:7).

Early Writings pg. 34.1 “And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus’ coming and delivered the everlasting covenant to His people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah, and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder.”
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/25/15 04:58 AM


Why blow the Seven Trumpets?

Rev. 17:16 “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”

Who is going to hate the whore? The whore who sits upon the beast is the Pope.

What? The ten horns will make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire? I thought they were friends!

Rev. 17:12-13 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

The ten horns, which are the ten kings of the earth, will change their mind about the whore; now they became enemies! Who made them change their minds?

What is meant that they will make her naked? Are they going to expose their top secrets to the world? Are they going to kill the Pope? Isn’t the destiny of the Pope is definite now?

My question is who made the ten horns and the beast to change their mind about her?

I believe the faithful few, the 144,000!

Rev. 17:14 “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”

The “called” and “chosen” are passive action but the “faithful”is active part of the person.

Deut. 32:30 “How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?”

Joshua 23:10 “One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.”

Nothing to fear but just blow the Seven Trumpets! Evil will destroy evil!

1 Sam. 17:47 “And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD’s, and he will give you into our hands.”
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/28/15 06:03 PM

Quote:
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {EW 279.2}

Quote:
Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
So would you say the trumpets end after the close of probation? Otherwise, what would this mean to you?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/29/15 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

So would you say the trumpets end after the close of probation? Otherwise, what would this mean to you?


The Seven Trumpets are announcements. It is not the events to be occurred before the close of probation but it is to make the announcement before the close of probation. If you read the each of the Seven Plagues and then read the Seven Trumpets, you may understand them better.

Karen
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/29/15 06:33 AM

Jesus offered prayers of saints that filled the golden vial at the altar of incense which ascended up before God.

Rev. 5:8 "… and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints."

Rev. 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

The Seven Angels with the Seven Trumpets must announce that the golden vials, which is full of prayers of saints, will be poured out as the Seven Plagues prior to the Angel of the Lord (Jesus) cast the ashes of the censer upon the earth.

Rev. 15:7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

Rev. 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: …."

Rev. 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

Prayers of saints went up to the throne of God and in the response, it will be poured out back to the earth as plagues if not worthy to receive the prayers. Have you noticed the golden vials that was filled with prayers of saints change to vials of the wrath of God?
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/29/15 05:57 PM

Quote:
Have you noticed the golden vials that was filled with prayers of saints change to vials of the wrath of God?
No I haven't. Do they?

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland

So would you say the trumpets end after the close of probation? Otherwise, what would this mean to you?


The Seven Trumpets are announcements. It is not the events to be occurred before the close of probation but it is to make the announcement before the close of probation. If you read the each of the Seven Plagues and then read the Seven Trumpets, you may understand them better.

Karen

But what does this mean to you?
Quote:
I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {EW 279.2}
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/30/15 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Have you noticed the golden vials that was filled with prayers of saints change to vials of the wrath of God?
No I haven't. Do they?


Prayers of saints went up from the earth. In the time of the Seven Plagues the bowl of the golden vial will pour out back to the earth.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/30/15 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

But what does this mean to you?[quote] I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {EW 279.2}


Jesus is our High Priest. He is now interceding for us in the Most Holy Place. Please study the Leviticus Chap. 16. The earthly HP finished his task on the Day of Atonement when he taken the ashes out. Thus I understand when Jesus throws down the censer and says "It is done", it means no more intercession available in the sanctuary above and the probation has closed.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/30/15 06:30 PM

Yes, prayers go up from the earth, but that doesn't mean they are the plagues in the vials to be poured out.


And yes I agree, when He throws down the censer, probation is closed. Then the trumpets sound. I thought you were disagreeing with that. How are the trumpets a warning if probation has already closed? Now they could be a war trumpet.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/01/15 06:23 AM

Prayers of saints ascended to the golden altar(Rev 8:3). Prayers went up when the martyrs cried out, "How long, O Lord, … dost thou not judge and avenge our blood …?" In response to their prayers, it was said to them, "until…should be fulfilled" (Rev 6:10-11).

We are told that the wicked "shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;" (Rev.14:10).

God's golden cup is being filled as the prayers of saints ascend. Rev. 5:8 "…and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints".

When the golden vial is full it will be poured out upon the earth. Rev.16:1 "…Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
Rev. 15:8 "…and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." The martyrs' prayers will be answered when the cup of the golden vials fulfilled and it will be poured out back to the earth as the Seven last Plagues.

The Seven Trumpets' vision is foretelling the events of the Seven Plagues. The plagues will fall due to what has been done during the probationary time. So the warnings should go out prior to the close of the probation.

Notice that the angels "stood at the altar", which indicate that they were watching the prayers of saints come up and filling the golden vial during the probationary time. "The judgement was set, and the books were opened" (Dan. 7:10) and the "thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him". So the angels with the seven trumpets watched the Investigative Judgment while Jesus was ministrying in the heavenly sanctuary.

Since the scenario of the Seven Trumpets is fortelling the Seven Plagues, God's people may discern the blueprint of God and warn the world while the probationary time last in short. Like the three angels messengers are of the people of God, the Seven Trumpeters should be the people of God blowing the sound of the warning.

1 Cor 14:7 "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/03/15 08:43 PM

Are all golden cups, golden vials, and golden censers all the same? Are the 24 elders and 4 creature's golden vials the same as the 7 golden vials? Can we take all mention of golden vials in the Bible and apply them the same way? I mean, it could be, but is that a valid conclusion to draw?

Maybe you're leaving something out, but it seems there are some jumps made.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/04/15 02:56 AM

Isa. 34:16 "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

Isa. 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

Rev. 5:8 "…the 4 beasts and 24 Elders…having…golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints." Prayers went up from the earth to fill the golden vials in the heavenly sanctuary.

Rev. 8:3 "…having a golden censer…offer…the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." The prayers of saints mixed with the sweet incense of Jesus' ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

Rev. 16:1, 15:7,8 the voice from the temple(the throne of God) => the 4 beasts => seven angels have seven golden vials full of the wrath of God => upon the earth.

Do you see the order of the sequence changes to backwards when the Seven last Plagues fall upon the earth?

Matt. 16:19 "…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/04/15 03:55 AM

Because saints of God send their prayers to the throne of God, there is a judgment of God in response to the saints' prayers.

The saints that began in the earth belong in the Seven Churches. In response to their prayers, the throne of God is set for the judgment. We find that this is the Investigative Judgment in Rev. Chap. 4 and 5, and Jesus is worthy to open the sealed book.

Jesus is the one who loose the each seal. Thus we find that the Seven Sealings literally happens on the earth just as literally the Investigative Judgment goes on in the heaven.

Ultimately the 144,000 will be sealed. The Seven Trumpets will sound in a Loud Cry to call for a repentance for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Those who refuse to repent and blaspheme God will receive the Seven Last Plagues.

Consequently, the Babylon the great will collapse and the Second Coming of Jesus occurs.

Finally, the saints enter the New Jerusalem and they will have a privilege to review the judgment of God during the millennium.

The Book of Revelation is, indeed, the story of redemption for the whole universe!
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/05/15 05:54 PM

I see you didn't answer my concerns.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/07/15 02:35 AM

Thanks again Karen. I think you're right. The trumpets will sound and bring the three angel's messages to a loud cry. I think the only difference in our views is that you believe the trumpets are warning messages and that they do not bring the disasters they describe. But we both are saying they warn of the plagues. I think they actually happen and that they will start soon, possibly as soon as six weeks from today. We'll know soon.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/07/15 03:52 PM

The Seven Trumpets are the last warning to the world for the coming Seven Last Plagues, which I believe that the shadow of the plagues is already here. Jesus will come as a thief if we do not watch and keep our garments clean (Rev. 16:15) because many would be ignorant of the plagues that have begun falling.
“Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall.” ER 64.2
I believe the event of the descriptions of the Seven Trumpets is going to fulfill in the Seven Plagues. The first plague is “a noisome and grievous sore upon the men”(Rev. 16:2) that will destroy 1/3 men on earth as depicted as trees and all green grass in the first trumpet. The ‘hail and fire mixed with blood’ denote a destruction of the life of men. (Rev. 8:7)
God tells us that “ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4), which means that He has provided a way of escape of the coming plague of “a noisome and grievous sore”. God has given us a health message to adhere in order to avoid the coming disaster of health issues.

Acts 15:29 “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well…”
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/15 03:54 AM

1Cor. 14:8 “for if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”
In order to warn the world for the coming wrath of God, the ‘trumpeters’ must know what are the Seven Last Plagues really mean.
The first plague is “a noisome and grievous sore upon the men”. (Rev. 16:2)
“And an evil and MALIGNANT ulcer came on those of mankind.” Literal Concordant version. We are told that this is literal plague of the wrath of God upon men. The raging epidemic cancer (Marignant ulcer) is literally occurring right now. I cannot interpret otherwise than the pandemic phenomenon. “Watch”, what is happening in a global level. The shadow of the first plague is already here! Please listen to the Holy Spirit talking to the church of God “abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well”. (Acts 15:29)
The first church of Ephesus was warned of the coming “noisome and grievous sore”upon men. Thus the health message with gospel went forth to the world“ conquering, and to conquer” as denoted in the first seal. (Rev. 6:2)
Continually rejecting the voice of the Holy Spirit will end up receiving the mark of the beast. (Rev. 16:2). We must be overcomers in the world by hearing and obeying the Spirit of God to refuse the mark of the beast.

So the first trumpeter’s warning is “…there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up and all green grass was burnt up.” (Rev. 8:7)
The trees and green grass depict men on earth. The blood mingled in the fire and hail indicates death to men. We are told one third of men would die. Statistics show that one out of three people diagnosed of cancer these days. I would say that the first plagues are already falling.
Notice that I connected all the first of the series of the church, seal, trumpet and plague. This method of application gives a understanding why the first plague is falling. I have learned this way of interpretation many years ago from a laymen scholar of the book of Revelation. You may apply this method to all others of the four series in sequence to discover a deeper meaning.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/18/15 05:40 AM

Seven Plagues

The beginning of the seven plagues is known by the signs of the time.

Gen. 1:14 “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:”

When the sun, moon, and stars are behaving strangely upon the atmosphere of the earth, it is giving us the clues of the signs of the beginning of the seven plagues just as Noah’s time when the untamed animals and the birds flocked into the Ark.

We are told that God is going to pour out the wrath of God in the Seven Plagues, which is not mixed with any mercies. He is not talking about a symbolic wrath of God but the literal seven plagues. So consider the seven plagues in the book of Revelation!

The first plague is “noisome and grievous sore upon men”, which are the malignant ulcers.

The second plague is “every living soul died in the sea”, which is saying that the ocean life is polluted to death of men.

The third plague is “the rivers and fountains of waters” became blood, which is saying that the drinking water for men is so polluted and as the result calamity occurs to men.

The fourth plague is “sun scorched with great heat”, which brings disasters to agriculture, climate, economy, and spiritual calamities. With this plague, men will blaspheme God rather than repenting.

The fifth plague is that “the seat of the beast…was full of darkness”, which denotes that the Papacy is troubled. They desire to die but the death will flee from them.

The sixth plague is that the three unclean spirits unite together to destroy God’s people, which is Armageddon battle. The sixth plague is already “set up” to slaughter or oppress the saints by the trio powers of economy, religion, and politic.

The seventh plague is that “the kingdoms of this world are become kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ” by the second coming of Jesus. This literal event is the plague for the wicked.

Now we should read the Seven Trumpets of warning.

The first trumpet sounded, saying, “there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, …” were cast to the earth dwellers. The one third of trees and all green grass was burnt up, which the tree and grass denote mankind.

The second trumpet sounded, saying, “great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and … became blood.” The polluted ocean life impacts men’s life that is depicted as “ships were destroyed.”

The third trumpet sounded, which fell upon the “rivers and fountains of waters”. The drinking water made bitter because the saints and prophets have shed blood.

The fourth trumpet sounded, then the celestial bodies of sun, moon and the stars became darkened or troubled. This will bring disasters to agriculture, climate, economy, and spiritual condition. But the men still blaspheme God rather than repenting.

The fifth trumpet sounded, and the torment caused by a scorpion made men desire to die but the death will flee from them. This kind of torture is a spiritual torment, which is much more severe than physical torment. The beast will be tormented by smoke to this extend, which is depicted as darkened by the smoke.

The sixth trumpet has warning threats by the fire, the smoke and the brimstone to those who do not repent but blaspheme God, which are the three unclean spirits.

The seventh trumpet sounded, saying that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.

The Seven Trumpets are foretelling the future of the completion of the plagues.
The sealed saints must blow the seven trumpets toward the world that they may repent their sins and stop blaspheming God, while the mercies of God last a little more time.

As you have seen in this study, the seven plagues obviously parallel to the seven trumpets, which indicate that they are relevant, each other.

Amos 3:7 “ Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/24/15 05:53 AM

Fifth Trumpet parallels

Will our God give trumpet sounds prior to the close of the probation? We have studied so far that the Seven Trumpets has obvious correlation to the Seven Plagues even to the Seven Churches and the Seven Seals. How interesting it is to discover that the each series of the Seven has a golden thread that we may draw a complete picture why the Seven Plagues have to fall.

Want to hear a provocative thought again in the fifth ones?

Consider the fifth plague that poured out upon the seat of the beast, which is the Papacy. God in the throne has been receiving prayers of the saints and the golden bowl has been accumulating all the prayers. The martyrs of the saints continue to ascent their prayers to the throne of God, saying, “How long, O Lord!” in the fifth seal. During the time of the reformation, which is the fifth church period, many of the saints in the system of the Papacy have been martyred no doubt even to these days.
The bowl of golden cup will be poured out as the plagues when the wrath of God filled up.
Why the Papacy has to suffer the plague such as “gnawed their tongues for pain” in the fifth plague? The answer to the reason why is “for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets” (Rev. 16:6).
The fifth trumpet indicated their sufferings as “the torment of a scorpion” and they would “desire to die, and death shall flee from them” (Rev. 9:5-6). This kind of the spiritual torments stirred by the fallen angel who was given the key of the bottomless pit. We are told of his identity in Rev. 12:9: “the great dragon…the devil, and Satan.” The Angel of the bottomless pit is also called Abaddon, or Apollyon, which means a destroyer. This dragon gave the Papacy “his power and his seat, and great authority (Rev. 13:2) to be his agent in this world.

The fifth of the seven series of the churches, seals, trumpets and plague parallel to give us a complete understanding of the plan of God, even a child can understand.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/02/15 08:09 AM

The greatest event of the prophecy is Jesus' second coming. We must let the trumpet sound about the imminent event. Have you considered what might be happening at the coming of Jesus? I will share my study notes.

Rev. 6:1 “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.”

Why “the noise of thunder” when Jesus released the first seal? The invitation to “Come and see” as “it were of a trumpet talking” was still leading the way of vision by the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 66:5 “Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his doing toward the children of men.”

When Jesus released the pressure of the first seal, the white horse “went forth conquering, and to conquer”. Doubtlessly, the Apostles preached a message of hope of Jesus’ Second Coming when the Holy Spirit came upon them during the first church period. That was the ‘noise of thunder’.

Acts 1:11 “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Thus they conquered wherever they went with the gospel of Jesus.

Rev. 10:3 “And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

Here comes the “seven thunders” like a “lion roareth”, which parallels with the first beast of the first seal. In Rev. 6:1 the reference of the first beast is a lion that says, “Come and see”. This voice was like “the noise of thunder”.

Thus, the preaching of the Second Coming of Jesus is depicted as the “thunder”. Nevertheless, when the Advent Movement was revived in the period of the Philadelphia church, a voice from heaven saying, “seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.” (Rev. 10:4)
It was not in the timeline of God’s plan for Jesus’ Second Coming.

Acts 1:7 “And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

The people of God have a commission to prophesy again for they have discovered the Sabbath truth after the Great Disappointment in 1844. It was not a time for Jesus to come then, in fact, each period of the church history has preached of His Coming. Thus it is the ‘seven thunders’ of seven Christian eras, which was depicted but instructed to “seal up…the seven thunders”.

Jesus’ Second Coming is the greatest event that prophesied not only in the Book of Revelation but also in all the Scriptures of the prophecy.

The Bible tells us five things will occur at the event of His Coming;

1). Earth becomes the center of the universe. “Powers of heavens shall be shaken” (Matt. 24:29).

2). The greatest earthquake will occur with the “shaking”. “Mighty an earthquake.” (Rev. 16:18)

3). There will be a “feast of bird” and a “feast of bride”. (Rev. 19:6-18).

4). Earth will be cleansed by fierce fire. (Rev. 19:20) “Cast …into a lake of fire.”

5). Earth becomes in a state of “void” or “bottomless pit” for one thousand years. (Rev. 20:1-3)

Matt. 23:24 “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
Marking the greatest event into a smallest matter and the smallest things to huge matter are the same delinquent sin.

We must prepare to meet the greatest event of the Second Coming of Jesus by studying the prophecy.

1). Powers of Heaven will be Shaken

Matt. 24:29
Mark 13:24
Luke 21:25

“December 16, 1848, the Lord gave me a view of the shaking of the powers of the heavens. I saw that when the Lord said “heaven,” in giving the signs recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke, He meant heaven, and when He said “earth” He meant earth. The powers of heaven are the sun, moon, and stars. They rule in the heavens. The powers of earth are those that rule on the earth. The powers of heaven will be shaken at the voice of God. Then the sun, moon, and stars will be moved out of their places. They will not pass away, but be shaken by the voice of God. – {EW 41.1}

EW pg. 33 “The sun came up, and the moon stood still. The streams ceased to flow. Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. …The sky opened and shut and was in commotion. The mountains shook like a reed in the wind, and cast out ragged rocks all around. The sea boiled like a pot and cast out stones upon the land.”

Heb. 12:26, 27 “Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.”

2). Mighty Earthquake

Rev. 16:18,20 “…there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great….And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”

Rev. 18:10 “…Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.”

Rev. 18:17, 19 “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought…for in one hour is she made desolate.”

Rev. 9:4,6 “…but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads…
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”
Isa. 24:17-20 “…the foundations of the earth do shake…. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, …”

Matt. 28:2 “And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.”

Matt. 27:51-52 “And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”

1 Thess. 4:16-17 “…with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:…”

When the multitudes of saints arise from the graves, there will be a mighty earthquake.

3). Two Feasts

The feast of bird: The wicked that did not die in the earthquake will participate in the bird feast. This was the most terrible execution in the days of ancient time.

Gen. 40:19 “Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.”

1 Sam. 17:43,44 “And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.”

Esther 7:9,10 “…Behold also, the gallows fifty cubits high, which Haman had made for Mordecai,…So they hanged Haman on the gallows …Then was the king’s wrath pacified.”

Esther 9:13,14 “…Haman’s ten sons be hanged upon the gallows…”

Deut. 21:23 “His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”

The Feast of the Bird is worse than the death on the cross.
Matt. 27:46 “…Eli, Eli, Lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsken me?”

Dying in torment for a long time is the horrific death. Rev. 9:6 “…men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”
John 19:33 “But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:”

The death on the cross usually takes 15 days of life.

Rev. 8:1 “…there was silence …about the space of half an hour.” – ½ hr. = 7.5 days
Rev. 18:9,17,19 “one hour” – 1 hr. = 15 days
They will seek death but shall not find it. (Rev. 9:6)

The wicked will participate 15 days in the bird feast on the earth while the saints participate in the feast of bride in heaven.

Structure outline in the Chap. 19 of Revelation
verse 6-9 The Feast of Bride at the time of Second Coming of Jesus.
verse 11-16 The Event of Second Coming of Jesus.
verse 17,18 The Feast of Bird at the time of Second Coming of Jesus.

Jesus suffered the bird feast on the cross. Psalm 22:19, 69:21, Luke 23:33, Heb. 12:2, 6:5,6

4). Earth becomes furnace of fire

The intensity of the fire at the Second Coming is fiercer than the time of the second death after the millennium.
2 Thess. 2:7,8 “…And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”

Gen. 7:11 “…the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.”

The brimstone for the second death is to eliminate the wicked. Yet, the second coming of Jesus will cleansed the whole earth and the sea with consuming fire.
Ex.) To catch a criminal requires intense work than to execute the criminal.

At the second coming of Jesus, the Satan has to be thrown into the bottomless pit.
Matt. 12:29 “Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”
Rev. 20:2,3 “And he laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Rev. 19:20 “….These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Rev. 20:10 “…And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Isa. 30:33 “For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”

2 Peter 3:6,7 and 10-13

5). The earth becomes bottomless pit

Rev. 20:6 “…they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Gen. 2:1-3 ---------6 days creation------------→ Seventh day Sabbath

Ex. 21:1-2 ---------6 years slavery -----------→ Seventh year free

Lev. 23 -------------6 feasts --------------------→ Feast of Tabernacle

Rev. 20 ----------- 6000 yrs. ------------------→ 1000 yrs. In heaven
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/10/15 03:05 PM

In order to understand the Seven Trumpets, we must not lose a sight of Jesus Christ who reveals the vision with the sound of the trumpet. John told us that, “I…heard…a great voice, as of a trumpet” (Rev. 1:10) in the beginning.

The “trumpet …” was “the first voice which I heard” revealed the vision of the throne room in Chap. 4 and 5. There we are told that Jesus is worthy to “loose the seven seals” (Rev. 5:5).

As Jesus in heaven releases the each seal we are told that a restraining power of God was released in the earth. A “power was granted to” the earth dwellers (Rev. 6:4) and “power was given to” (Rev. 6:8) “kill with sword,..hunger,…death, … beasts.”

Why is Jesus worthy to loose the seven seals when it seems to “hurt the earth” (Rev. 7:2) and intensifies as He releases each seal? They “kill one another” and “peace from the earth” taken away. Earth corrupted with the deceitfulness of men. And the “fourth part of the earth” become hurt by “sword,..hunger,..death,..and the beasts”. Things intensified in the loud cries, “How long, O Lord..?” Lastly, there is horrible cries, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne.” (Rev. 6:16).

Even John voiced his concern, “who shall be able to stand?” as Jesus is releasing the pressure of evil that was restrained?

The four angels in the Chap. Seven have a special task that not to hurt “the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till… sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” (Rev. 7:3). Thus, we have a hint that during the release of the seals, the restrained powers of evil have loosened somewhat by Jesus for them to exercise their power. By their intensified evils as numbered, they are earning their way for a punishment at the end.

However, Jesus reveals to us that He has His own people who are sealed and completely seal of God. These are the ones that God does not allowed to be “hurt” as the seals released.
Jesus has His people: the resurrected saints (the multitudes) and the alive of the 144,000. The Chap. Seven describes only these two groups of sealed of God. There is none others.

Conclusively, the seventh seal released to reveal that the story of the redemption has completed and the heaven is silent for half an hour. This is like silence before the verdict is read in a courtroom.

So the verdict to the Antichrist Empire is in the Seven Trumpets. The story of the salvation of the saints is described from the Chap. one to Chap. Seven. Now in the Chapter Eight we are told that the powers to “hurt” the earth are pronounced.

The “third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up” (Rev. 8:7), and this is the sound of the first trumpet.

The command ‘not to hurt the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees’ (Rev. 7:3) was given to the four angels who were holding the wind that “should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree”(Rev. 7:1). Now the first trumpet said that the “hurt” is happening.
Notice that the four angels are releasing their hold! That is why the “hurt the earth,…the sea,..the trees” has transpired, which the first trumpet has informed us of the close of probation.

We can also confirm the release of the four angels in the sixth trumpet. The command said, “Loose the four angels” (Rev. 9:14), which the voice came from the “four horns of the golden altar”. The horns depict mercy of God in this context, which the golden altar has four horns in the sanctuary. When Adonijah feared the king Solomon, he “caught hold on the horns of the altar” and said, “Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant” (1 King 1:50,51).

The four horns are located on “the golden altar which is before God” (Rev. 9:13). Notice that the “prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne” (Rev. 8:3) ascended to the throne with the “much incense” of Jesus. This depicts of Jesus’ intercession upon the mercy seat of God in heaven. Holding the winds by the four angels assures that there is mercy of God but when the four angels release their hold that indicates the close of the probation.

Thus the release of the four angels indicates that the probation ended and there is no more mercy of God. This is the verdict to the Antichrist Empire in the Seven Trumpets. Another aspect to the Seven Trumpet is to awake the church of God by foreseeing the event of the close of probation that is very imminent.
This two-fold purpose of the Seven Trumpets tells us the blueprint of the plan of God for the end-time prophecy. The Book of Revelation is our manual book to finish the history of the earth.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/11/15 06:04 PM

In comparing the trumpets to the plagues, I find only one apparent discrepancy.

Re 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Re 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


The trumpets say "a third" frequently, but the plagues do not specify a quantity except in the above case where it says "every". However, "every" in the Greek can mean "any", "as many as", or "whole".

How would this relate to the situation today? A lot of the Pacific Ocean is dying or is already dead (among many others, over 35,000 baby sea lions could be dead) from the radiation spewing into it from Japan. It's a very big ocean and the radiation won't be contained to just it.

Suppose that most of the creatures in the sea are dead before the trumpets and plagues happen. Would it not be correct to say that "the third" of life remaining is also "every living soul"?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/17/15 05:47 AM

Blow of the Seven Trumpets

As Jesus in heaven releases each seal we are told that a restraining power of God was loosed on the earth, which is the pressure of evil that was restrained.
A “power was granted to” the earth dwellers (Rev. 6:4) and “power was given to” (Rev. 6:8) the freewill of man to run its course to mature their evil ways.

In a contrast, the saints also mature to overcome and purified to be a prepared bride for Jesus Christ in the great Day of the Lord.

We are told again “it was granted to him to make war with the saints” (Rev. 13:7), which is the “beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads…” (Rev. 13:1). This beast has received his power from the dragon (Rev. 13:2) to “make a war with the remnant of her seed” (Rev. 12:17).

The seven heads of the beast are the evil forces that come against the seven churches of God during the Christian dispensation. The seven churches are the seven candlesticks, which the seven Spirits abide. When the release of the four angels in the sixth trumpet, the seven heads of the beast will “hurt” the earth, the sea and the trees. Notice that the evil destroys the evil in the plan of God.

Rev. 9:19 “…had heads, and with them they do hurt”. The beast with the seven heads has been attempting to destroy the earth, the sea and the trees during the seven church periods but was restrained by the Seven Spirits until the four angels loose their hold. Now the power granted to them was fully released that they can destroy anyone except the sealed of God just as the firstborns were destroyed except the Israelites with the blood of the lamb on their doorpost.

Nonetheless, the power given to the beast from the dragon (Rev.13:2) to make war with the saints appeared as the seven mountains of threat to the saints. There is another cry of inquiry, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

The response to the question, “who is able to stand?” was the “sealed the servants of our God” (Rev. 7:3). Apostle John said, “I heard the number of those who were sealed, the one hundred and forty-four thousand” (Rev. 7:4), which was the answer to his inquiry.

Likewise, the answer to, “Who is able to make war with him?” is “behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand,” that is to make war with the beast.

Notice the flow of the storyline. After the ‘Loosening of the Seven Seals’ there seems to be none who can stand the evil force. But God’s answer to us is the 144,000 in Chap. 7 shall be able to stand. Then the Seven Trumpets appear on the scene of the visions in Chap. 8 thru 11. This is like a judgment or verdict that is reserved for the Antichrist Empire.
Yet the power of the beast in Chap. 13 appears enormously great that “Who is able to make war with him?” was uttered. Again God answers this question in Chap. 14, “behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand” shall make war with the beast.

The dramatic battle for the end-time is a glorious one for God’s people. As the 144,000 march into battle, they sing songs of victory (Rev. 15:3, 4), which is the allusion of the battle of the Jehoshaphat when he defeated Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir. (2 Chron. 20). Jehoshaphat’s army sang a song of praise and “went out before the army” for the “battle is not yours, but God’s (2 Chron. 20:15)”.

Thus the 144,000 remnant have an understanding of the will of God and will blow the Seven Trumpets of the Book of Revelation with the full force.

Only priests are designated to blow the trumpet. Num. 10:8 “And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.”

Just as God sent Moses to declare judgment upon Pharaoh, He has “the called, and chosen, and faithful” of the 144,000 to send to the Antichrist Empire to pronounce their verdict judgment of the Seven Trumpets.

We have observed that the first four trumpets are announcing of the natural resources of the earth, sea, fountains of water and the celestial bodies that has been affected as “hurt”, which indicate that the four angels in Chap. 7 has been released their “hold” of the wind. The task of the four angels was not “to hurt the earth and the sea…till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads”. Now the “hurt” has occurred.

Conclusively, the “hurt” of the natural resources indicated that the sealing of God was completed and the close of probation has arrived.

The severity of the first four trumpets is gradual phenomenon upon the earth-dwellers and not as intensified as the next three trumpets. The three “woe, woe, woe” indicate their urgency and severity for “an angel flying through the midst of heaven” declaring, “woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpets of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”

The implication of the last three trumpets is spiritual warfare that is much more intensified and the safety of the saints is endangered also. However, God’s protection is promised to the sealed of God. The command was given “not to hurt the sealed of God”. The “hurt” occurs only when the four angels release their hold on the winds of the four corners of the earth. Notice the demonic activities in the fifth trumpet, which are hurting men as scorpion that is indicating the close of probation.

We are told that the four angels were released in the sixth trumpet. “…Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates” (Rev. 9:14).
At the point of time, their hold is released. “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” (Rev. 9:15). The river “Euphrates” also indicate that the end of the boundary of the time, which the sixth plague told us that the vial poured upon the “Euphrates…that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared” (Rev. 16:12).

Gen. 15:18 “In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:”

In the seventh trumpet, the voice was of the “kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;”. This is the announcement that all the kingdoms of this world are transferred over to the Lord.

Rev. 10:7 says that the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet are when the mystery of God is finished.

The study of the seven trumpets reveals the two-fold purpose. The close of the probation is imminent and the wrath of God will pour out in the seven plagues.

In the introduction for the seven trumpets, Jesus, our High Priest, will cast the ashes of the golden altar upon the earth, which indicate that His ministries of the intercession has completed in the heavenly sanctuary.

Thus the understanding of the seven trumpets will wake up the church of God. And the seal of God will pronounce the verdict judgment to the Antichrist Empire in the seven trumpet sound.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/29/15 09:41 PM

Present Truth of Armageddon

We have heard that there will be a battle called Armageddon in the future, just before the Second Coming of Jesus. My question is, are we there yet?

We have learnt that when the four angels “which are bound in the great river Euphrates (Rev. 9:14), and who have power to “hurt” the earth, (Rev 7:3) and who will perform the command of God by immediately releasing their hold of the four winds (Rev. 7:1 & 9:15). Then the seven-bowls/vials of (Rev 16:1) judgment will occur. These will be the most severe and catastrophic events that this poor world has ever experienced.

But in the mercy of God, the seven trumpet trumpeters must hasten in giving the warning of the coming seven-bowls/vials judgment. These trumpeters are the sealed saints of God who will blow the seven trumpets because they know the mind of God. Amos 3:7 tells us, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

These trumpeters of God are to participate in pronouncing the judgment of the seven last plagues. We may say that the trumpeters are prophesying by foretelling the coming events of the seven last plagues. Notice that in Rev.11:6 we are told that “These have power to shut heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophecy…” which indicates that the trumpeters are prophesying. Those only, who have the word of God, are represented by the metaphor of the two witnesses,(Rev 11:3) and will be allowed to participate in this movement of end-time prophecy.

God’s Word declares to us in Joel 2:28 saying, “…your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:”

In Rev.10:7 we are reminded that “… in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall begin to sound…”which is telling us that the seventh trumpeter will announce the coming seven last plagues. We can determine that not only the seventh trumpeter, but all seven trumpeters are to announce the coming judgment of the seven last plagues. Notice that the each trumpet’s sound depicts the “hurt” that is brought upon the earth, which announces of the close of human probation.

Having said this, the battle of Armageddon proclaimed by the trumpeters is not for the world only but it will also involve the church of God. Hence we are told in Rev 16:15 Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garment, less he walk naked. This message is given to the church of God in the middle of or during the activity of Armageddon Rev 16:16. Saying in other words, “Hold that fast which thou hast that no man take thy crown.” Ref. Rev 3:11.

The battle of Armageddon takes place by the river Euphrates (Rev. 16:12), which is the boundary. References - Gen. 15:18, 2:14, Rev. 9:14

Armageddon is truly a threefold religious union joining together the three unclean spirits of, the dragon, the beast and the false prophets (Rev. 16:13).

Dragon --- represents --- paganism;
Beast --- represents --- the Papacy;
False prophets --- represents --- apostate Protestantism.

Their insinuative agenda is to seek for the peace of the world but their underline objective/purpose is to slaughter the people of God.

Dan. 8:23-25 “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.”

King Josiah died in Megiddo, when he opposed Pharaoh Neco the Egyptian king.
Pharaoh Necho, was determined to wage war against Assyria, but king Josiah went against him. Necho said that he was sent by God to fight against another army and told king Josiah not to interfere with his battle plans. Necho demanded that he go through the land peacefully and forbear thee from meddling with God who is with me that He destroy thee not. Ref. 2 Chron 35:21. In the plains of Megiddo the king Josiah was killed, but he is a “type” of the last day faithful people who “turn to the LORD with all his heart, …soul… and might.”

2 Chron. 35:22 "Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo."

2 King 23:25, 29 "And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. In his days Pharaoh-nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him."

Notice now that Armageddon and Megiddo are interrelated by the river Euphrates. There was “a great mourning in Jerusalem (Zech. 12:11)” because of the death of King Josiah.

Observe also that there was another event in Megiddo. Judge 5:19 "The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money."

In Megiddo there was "no gain of money". Today, our world is in a great battle for money without boundaries and weapons of war are used to reach this objective. Many are anxious to rise to the top to gain more money. However, in the battle of Armageddon the Scriptures teach us in Rev 13:16-17,”And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that hath the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” That is when Satan would have reached his full battle plan to deceive masterfully that there will be no gain of money at the end. Look up the following, (Dan 6:5-9; Matt. 4:8-10).

We have been told in inspiration that "Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. ... Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of Spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; ... they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God." (Great Controversy, pp. 561-562)

The Papacy/Beast has created economic manipulation by using IBRD (International Bank for Reconstruction and Development) and IMF (International Monetary Funds) to enforce the mark of beast globally.

What’s their policy? The NEW WORLD ORDER?

We find another interrelated event in the valley of Megiddo and the valley of Jehoshaphat.

Zechariah 12:11 "In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mouring of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Let us notice that" Zechariah 12:11 describes Megiddo as a "valley."

"I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, when they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. Here we have a description of the “valley" of Jehoshaphat as a place of judgment recorded in Joel 3:2.

The prophet Joel here describes this event of God's judgment as taking place in a valley:
"Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." (Joel 3:12, 14)

Armageddon and Megiddo interrelates at the river Euphrates. We have also discovered that the valley of Megiddo is interrelated with valley of Jehoshaphat. Therefore Armageddon is interrelated with the valley of Jehoshaphat also.
This has triangular correlation; Armageddon --- Megiddo --- Jehoshaphat

The seduction by the three unclean spirits are working “Behind the scenes” to destroy and to “hurt” everyone who is unaware.
The individual name of the destroyer is Abaddon or Apollyon (Rev.9:11 “a king over them”). When the destroyers are finally “gathered together” (the dragon, the beast, the false prophets), the new name becomes “Armageddon (Rev. 16:16)”.

The evil forces are already so tightly united in their ecumenical movement, which is a clear indication that the shadow of the sixth plague is evidently here. Soon they will declare that “as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed” (Rev. 13:15).

1. Megiddo-----depicted in Rev 13 -is the power of the beast that oppresses God's people with economy, religion and politics.
2. Jehoshaphat----- depicted in Rev 14 - three angels messages (Judgment)
3. Armageddon -----spiritual battle in Rev 16 - gathering the kings of the earth

What kind of events occurs in Megiddo/Armageddon?

1. Megiddo------ Rev 13:16; the mark of the beast enforced /unable to buy or sell
2. Jehoshaphat-------Rev 14:7; call to worship the Creator/hour of judgment has come
3. Armageddon------ Rev 16:16; Activities of the three unclean spirits/kings of the earth as they are gathered together in the final battle of Armageddon with God's remnant people.

The essence of the battle is between the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast. Dan.3:12-17; Rev.12:10-11.

The purpose of the harlot is:

1. In Rev 13 is to give the mark of the beast on forehead and hand.
2. In Rev 14 is to hinder the true worship of God that is portrayed by 3 angel messages.
3. In Rev 16 is to make their powers strong to come against SDA by gathering the kings of the earth.

The harlot attempts:

1. Rev 13 -- Economy; caused all to receive mark of the beast not the Seal of God
2. Rev 14 - Judgment; harlot is against the commemoration of creation and salvation of God
3. Rev 16 - Three religious powers united in bundles (Matt 13:30) but to receive the plagues.

The shadows of Armageddon are overspread the earth already.
They gathered them together into the situation ROOM called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon.

1. Megiddo --- economic issues/the wars of economy -present event
2. Armageddon--- united religious powers-------------------- present event
3. Jehoshaphat ---God's judgment------------------------- present event in heaven

Are we a little blown away by the events unfolded intensely one after the other? “Why so severe?” “What about the saints? What about us?” Have a faith God that His judgment is going on in heaven simultaneously as the events culminate to the final showdown. Many will fall away in faith so visibly while the Antichrist set up the stage on the world scene. We must take a firm stand for truth regardless of the cost. Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

There might seem to be a global prosperity, unity of the nations, world peace, and the justice movement by the harlot’s Babylonian system. But it is only a temporary counterfeit.

God’s judgment is announced in the seven trumpets. Consider the sixth trumpet, which announces that men will be killed or punished by fire, smoke and brimstone that are targeting the three unclean spirits. (Rev. 9:15,20).

Why?

Because man has gathered the entire world together "to the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14). They are earning their just punishment.
There is a voice from the temple in the sixth trumpet saying loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates (Rev. 9:14) then the angel of the sixth bowl pours out the plague upon the great river Euphrates (Rev. 16:12). The armies of the Lord (Rev. 19:14), which are numbered "two hundred thousand thousand" (Rev. 9:16) are now commissioned to slay "the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15) that dwell on the earth (Rev. 8:13).
It is clear that the mediation of Jesus Christ in the heavenly sanctuary has ceased when the command went out from the temple to slay men with the plague. It will not take ‘391 years’ to "slay the third part of men (Rev. 9:15)" on earth, instead it will be done at the same time when the wrath of God is poured out in the seven last plagues.
The intensity of the plague by fire, smoke and brimstone is depicted as "the heads of horses/as the heads of Lions" (Rev. 9:17) in their ferocity. We are further told that the three unclean spirits are working miracles, to gather the whole world together to the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14), this inevitably will usher the world into the punishment of the sixth plague. Therefore to unlock the sixth plagues, we must pair up/connect ‘the fire’ to unclean spirit of the dragon, ‘the smoke’ to unclean spirit of the beast, and ‘the brimstone’ to unclean spirit of the false prophets.

The sixth plague ushers in the event involving the entire world. Indeed, this is the second woe that is announced in the fifth trumpet! The intensity of warning, for the fifth plague, is in the image of "the heads of the horses that were as the heads of lions" (Rev. 9:17) in ferocity of the battle.

The Antichrist’s rage is ferocious and it is to kill as many people as possible when God releases the “hold” on the earth.

The four angels…were released to kill a third of mankind. (Rev. 9:15)

The slain of the LORD shall be from one end of the earth to the other... (Jer. 25:33)

The LORD makes the earth empty [of people]…3The land shall be entirely emptied…

The inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left. (Isa. 24:1-6)

The battle of Armageddon is here already. We just have not seen the climax of the end. Now is the time to watch and keep our garments, lest we walk naked, and see shame, not at the end, of course not!
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/30/15 02:15 AM

"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth. . . . And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God; and he cried . . . saying, Hurt not the earth . . . till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." These angels now hold the winds of strife, waiting for the church of God to prepare for his coming. The sealing angel goes through Jerusalem (the church) to place the seal of the living God on the foreheads of the faithful, and while this work goes forward, Turkey stands as a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.1}

God's eye is upon his people, and he never leaves himself without a witness in the world. No man knows when Turkey will take its departure from Europe, but when that move is made, earth's history will be short. Then it will be said, "He that is unjust let him be unjust still, . . . and he that is righteous let him be righteous still." To-day is "the day of preparation." The fate of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is recorded for the edification
Margin of the nations of to-day, and the lessons taught by all center in the events just before us. While the world watches Turkey, let the servant of God watch the movements of his great High Priest, whose ministry for sin is almost over. Margin {1901 SNH, SDP 248.2}
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/03/15 05:47 AM

The four angels are holding the four winds of the earth until the completion of the sealing of God.

When their holding is released, "hurt" will occur upon the earth, the sea and the trees. All the seven trumpets are talking about the "hurt", which indicate that the probation has closed.

The Seven Trumpets;
#1. trees, all green grass burnt up - trees and grass depict mankind; burnt up
indicates "hurt".
#2. sea creatures died - life in the sea "hurt".
#3. rivers and foundtains of water caused many men died-polluted drinking water
"hurt" mankind.
#4. celestial bodies darkened-heaven showing signs of times
#5. demonic activities "hurt men" (Rev. 9:10).
#6. "with them they do hurt" (Rev. 9:19).
#7. announcement of "kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Chirst" (Rev. 11:15)-"destroy them which destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:18)

The Seven Trumpets are the message of imminent close of the probation. At the same time in another aspect it foretells the coming seven last plagues.
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/03/15 08:52 AM

Sister Karen,

I am curious how you see the holding of the four winds in regards to the sealing of God's people--ie. the 144,000?

Do you see this seal as the Sabbath seal or something else upon the 144k?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/05/15 06:50 AM

The Chapter 7 of the Book of Revelation reveals to us all the redeemed saints of God. The multitudes are from diverse nations that are resurrected and the 144K are from one nation.

Since the 144K are the only alive ones of the saints at the time of Jesus' Second Coming, they would be in one faith, one Spirit, one Lord, one baptism etc. I have no doubt that 144K have the Sabbath seal.

The purpose of the holding the four winds is "till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3). when the four angels loose their hold (Rev. 9:14) the "hurt" of the earth, the sea, and the trees (Rev. 7:3) will occur as the all of Seven Trumpets have depicted.

The 144K won't be hurt by the release of the four angels. There is a command that they should not be hurt because they have the seal of God. "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." (Rev. 9:4).

The 144K have the word of truth of God. They have such power to strike the earth with all plagues in the days of their prophecy (Rev. 11:6) and they won't be hurt.
"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." (Rev. 11:5).
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/05/15 07:04 PM

Karen-Since the 144K are the only alive ones of the saints at the time of Jesus' Second Coming, they would be in one faith, one Spirit, one Lord, one baptism etc. I have no doubt that 144K have the Sabbath seal.

Yes I would agree, but this would be a primary seal, in other words a foundational seal. The seal that the elect of God (144K) will have must be the following as well--

"Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.267)

Note: this "mark" is the seal.


"Not all who profess to keep the Sabbath will be sealed.
There are many even among those who teach the truth to others who will not receive the seal of God in their foreheads. They had the light of truth, they knew their Master's will, they understood every point of our faith, but they had not corresponding works." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.213-214)


"Duty to Reprove Sin -- If wrongs are apparent among His people, and if the servants of God pass on indifferent to them, they virtually sustain and justify the sinner, and are alike guilty and will just as surely receive the displeasure of God; for they will be made responsible for the sins of the guilty.

In vision I have been pointed to many instances where the displeasure of God has been incurred by a neglect on the part of His servants to deal with the wrongs and sins existing among them. Those who have excused these wrongs have been thought by the people to be very amiable and lovely in disposition, simply because they shunned to discharge a plain Scriptural duty. The task was not agreeable to their feelings; therefore they avoided it." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.266)


So the 144,000 will be found to be exemplary in that they not only keep the Sabbath , have corresponding works, they sigh and cry for the abominations done in the church. How few really do this! No wonder Inspirations says only 144,000!

How many people speak up to the pastor about sins done in the midst? How many people truly sorrow to see young ladies with mini-shirts go prancing by in the sanctuary? How many "lift up their voice like a trumpet to show the house of Judah their sins"? FEW.

Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/11/15 09:49 PM


"Talk to souls in peril and get them to behold Jesus upon the cross, dying to make it possible for Him to pardon. Talk to the sinner with your own heart overflowing with the tender, pitying love of Christ. Let there be deep earnestness; but not a harsh, loud note should be heard from the one who is trying to win the soul to look and live" - Maranatha pg 105
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/11/15 10:15 PM

Rev. 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Who are the ones that belong to the armies of Jesus? Like the Gedeon's army, Jesus would have His armies to make war with the beast.

Rev. 13:4 "…Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

The above question is answered in the Chap. 14 of Revelation.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

Rev. 19:11 "…behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteouseness he doth judge and make war."

It is mandated that the 144K will blow the seven trumpets to bring the final collapse of the Great City Babylon. Therefore, understanding the seven trumpets message in a right perspective is essential. The message of the seven trumpets judgment is for present and for future.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/13/15 06:18 AM

Are you saying now that the trumpets come after probation closes?
So then the trumpets according to that new idea are no longer "warnings" or calls to repentance?

Also isn't Revelation 19 the second coming of Jesus?
Are you now saying it isn't the second coming, but rather the 144,000 as an army to bring down Babylon? (After probation has closed?)


Rev. 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean"


Who belongs to this army coming to make war with the beast and his image?

Quote:
" And "the armies which were in heaven" (Revelation 19:11, 14) follow Him. With anthems of celestial melody the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him on His way. The firmament seems filled with radiant forms--"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." No human pen can portray the scene; no mortal mind is adequate to conceive its splendor. "His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. And His brightness was as the light." Habakkuk 3:3,4. As the living cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the Prince of life. GC 640


Rev. 13:4 "…Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:

Quote:
"These have one mind." There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. "And shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Thus is manifested the same arbitrary, oppressive power against religious liberty, freedom to worship God according to the dictates of conscience, as was manifested by the papacy, when in the past it persecuted those who dared to refuse to conform with the religious rites and ceremonies of Romanism. {7BC 983.6}
In the warfare to be waged in the last days there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of Jehovah. In this warfare the Sabbath of the fourth commandment will be the great point at issue; for in the Sabbath commandment the great Lawgiver identifies Himself as the Creator of the heavens and the earth (MS 24, 1891). {7BC 983.7}


Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:16 And he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Quote:
No crown of thorns now mars that sacred head; but a diadem of glory rests on His holy brow. His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. "And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords." Revelation 19:16.
Before His presence "all faces are turned into paleness;" upon the rejecters of God's mercy falls the terror of eternal despair. {GC 640.3}





The problem comes in when we try to make Revelation one continuous sequence when in actuality it is like the book of Daniel -- a series of pictures taking us over the same time periods several times each time with a different objective.
Chapters 1-11 take us three times from the time of John the prophet to the end.
Chapter 12 gives an overview of the whole Great Controversy.
Chapters 13-22 focus on the last days and take us from the wounded beast healing through to final victory of Christ and restoration of all things.

It is Christ Himself that breaks the power of Babylon.

The commission for God's people is to give the call to "Come out of Babylon".
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/18/15 09:42 PM

Karen, I've mentioned before that I believe the trumpets are future events based mainly on statements in the SOP that "trumpet after trumpet" will sound. Today I found this article on the seven trumpets by James White that I thought you'd be interested in. I'm still reading it myself but I just want to draw your attention to the first part where White approaches the trumpets as harbingers of the fall of the fourth world empire - pagan and papal Rome.

It strikes me that this is a good template for us to use but that we should especially apply it to the future when the mortal wound is healed. If the trumpets herald the fall of the fourth beast, and I personally believe James White is right, then they apply especially to that time when Papal Rome again dominates the world and all the world wonders after the beast. So then, the thing to watch for first would be the healing of the mortal wound. I will hazard a guess that, notwithstanding that all the world is already mesmerized by the papacy, that the trumpets may not sound until the Papacy regains civil authority as the corrector of heretics; and, as soon as that begins to occur, particularly in the US, in the nullifying of the First Amendment through a state sponsored establishment of "Christianity" the Lord will begin sounding the warning.

When you're able, have a look at the article and please let me know your thoughts.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/19/15 06:26 AM

Quote:
Dedication-Are you saying now that the trumpets come after probation closes?
So then the trumpets according to that new idea are no longer "warnings" or calls to repentance?

Also isn't Revelation 19 the second coming of Jesus?
Are you now saying it isn't the second coming, but rather the 144,000 as an army to bring down Babylon? (After probation has closed?)


In my forum postings on this thread I have shared that the seven trumpets are the warnings for the seven plagues as well as a wake up call to church of God.

I realized that I have created a confusion about Chap. 19 of the armies of the white horse. My apology!
Thank you, Dedication, for you have made a clear point about the armies of Chap. 19 that they are the host of angels. I totally agree with you.

I meant to say that the 144K are the ones "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth" (Rev. 14:4) and "they that are with him (Lord of lords, and King of kings) are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14). The 144K have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Rev. 15:2) when they stand on the sea of glass because they followed the Lamb just like the armies of heaven follow Jesus.

The armies of heaven are the horsemen. "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,…" (Rev. 19:14). The number of the "horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand:" (Rev. 9:16). They receive a command from the temple to "slay the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15) at the sixth trumpet which indicate that the four angels in Chap. 7 are released their "hold". "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates" (Rev. 9:14), says the voice from the "four horns of the golden altar which is before God" (Rev. 9:13).

At a point of time, the host of angels of the horsemen obey the command of God immediately to "slay the third part of men", which clearly indicate that the mercy of God have reached the limit and the wrath of God released in judgment of Seven Plagues.

There will be no God's judgment executed without any warning. Even the 'Investigative Judgment' has made known in the first angel's message. "…Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (Rev. 14:7).

Each of the Seven Trumpets are talking about "hurt" of the Chap. 7:1-3. I have shared this overview on 4-2-15 posting of this thread. Thus we are told that the close of probation is imminent. The church must be awakened with a life giving sound for "if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" (1 Cor. 14:8).

Mark, I do not believe that James White has ever interpreted the seven trumpets. Uriah Smith has borrowed a historical interpretation from non-SDA, which were popular at the time. I believe that a knowledge of the sanctuary service and the Investigative Judgment are essential to interpret the book of Revelation correctly.
The redemption of mankind are written in the sanctuary service. "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: …" (Psalm 77:13). So we must interpret the Book of Revelation in the perspective of sanctuary and not by a historical approach.
The matter fact every chapters of the Revelation have imagery of sanctuary.
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/19/15 08:39 PM

Karen- "Talk to souls in peril and get them to behold Jesus upon the cross, dying to make it possible for Him to pardon. Talk to the sinner with your own heart overflowing with the tender, pitying love of Christ. Let there be deep earnestness; but not a harsh, loud note should be heard from the one who is trying to win the soul to look and live" - Maranatha pg 105

EGW- Every man who bears the message of truth to our churches must do his duty by warning, educating, rebuking. Any neglect of duty which is a robbery toward God means a curse upon the delinquent.(Special Testimonies to Ministers, page 307)

I hope you are not saying that we are not to warn and even rebuke when necessary? EGW has much along these lines. Bottom line ONLY those who sigh and cry about sins in the midst (church, and our own life) will be sealed.

"Show them where they are making a mistake. Set their danger before them. Tell them of the sins they are committing.."(4BC, p.1149)

The work of Christ's servants is not merely to preach the truth; they are to watch for souls..They are to reprove, rebuke, exhort with long suffering and doctrine." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.237)

"There are times when words of reproof and sharp rebuke are called for. Those who are out of the way need more than soft words to bring them back." (PH 0705)

"They hate the one who rebukes at the gate, and they abhor the one who speaks uprightly." (Amos 5:10)

"Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way.."(Proverbs 15:10)

"Keep the warning message of truth before the people.. We are to cry aloud and spare not. Some will pay no heed, but others will repent and be converted."(CW p.174)

So to address your idea that the 144,000 are sealed just with the Sabbath sign is incorrect--they must do as the Elijah message says--sigh and cry for the sins in the midst. If they fail to do this , not matter how much they speak of the prophecies, they will fail to be among the 144,000.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/25/15 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Mark, I do not believe that James White has ever interpreted the seven trumpets. . . .The matter fact every chapters of the Revelation have imagery of sanctuary.


Karen did you see the link I put in my post for you? It was to James White's article on the seven trumpets. I was hoping you'd scan it.

I agree and probably most people here agree with you that Revelation has to be studied in the context of the sanctuary. But we'll have to disagree on the trumpets. As brother and sister, that's OK.

Do you have any thoughts on the seven thunders? They come in at the sixth trumpet just before the Two Witnesses but I think that, like the Two Witnesses, the thunders may span much of the trumpets. Again, any thoughts?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/25/15 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

So to address your idea that the 144,000 are sealed just with the Sabbath sign is incorrect--they must do as the Elijah message says--sigh and cry for the sins in the midst. If they fail to do this, no matter how much they speak of the prophecies, they will fail to be among the 144,000.


GLL, the GC produced a video recently called "What Might Have Been . . . and What Can Be" (or something close to that). And although I don't agree with dramatizations it was a call to repentance so I give them credit for the message if not the medium. Adventism isn't Babylon yet. We're in the death throws but it seems like we only have a vague conception that something might be wrong and not much, if any, sense of urgency. Only God can save us from ourselves.

Will the Lord send us another Elijah? If we didn't listen to Ellen White or Jones and Waggoner will we listen to someone else? Some will, but it will be a remnant. Elijah will indeed come in the power of the latter rain. The latter rain will fall on those who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land and in the church. But this is the spirit of Christ. He spent whole nights in prayer pleading with God for His people, for us, but morning by morning he went out to minister, full of hope and grace.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/25/15 07:39 PM

Also Karen, you may have addressed this, and if you have you can refer me to your post(s) but I'd also like to know how you fit the Two Witnesses into the trumpets and thunders. What is their role if any in proclaiming the thunders and trumpets? You're probably aware that Ellen White applies all of Revelation 11 to the future and that she admonishes us to study that chapter because, she says, it's a description of what will take place in the cities of the world. If you need the SOP references, let me know.
Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/26/15 03:25 AM

Mark- Adventism isn't Babylon yet. We're in the death throws but it seems like we only have a vague conception that something might be wrong and not much, if any, sense of urgency. Only God can save us from ourselves.

The SDA church has never been Babylon , nor will it ever be. As we posted many times a church purification (Mal 3:1-5, Rev. 12:15-17, Hosea 1-2, Many SOP references,etc.) is to be performed by the Lord then the Loud Cry will come.

“Only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it (the 3rd angel’s message) when it shall have swelled into a Loud Cry. (Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1908)


The 144,000 are found to be the converted ones who have walked in the Elijah prophet's proclamation of the Lord's last message , which is the warning message of His "suddenly comes to His Temple" (Mal.3:1).

The positive instruction that we must "sigh and cry" for the abominations in our life and the church, I believe is nothing more that the Lord's validation that they are indeed loving the Lord and hating sin.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/27/15 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Godsloveandlaw
The SDA church has never been Babylon , nor will it ever be. As we posted many times a church purification (Mal 3:1-5, Rev. 12:15-17, Hosea 1-2, Many SOP references,etc.) is to be performed by the Lord then the Loud Cry will come.

“Only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it (the 3rd angel’s message) when it shall have swelled into a Loud Cry. (Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1908)


Excellent post GLL. Yes, the ship will go through. This is a prophetic message given by God. The three angel's message will be given as sure as the Word is true. But it will be the remnant who have "withstood temptation" and are crying and sighing that give it. Now, there's a challenge for all of us, especially the youth. Let's pray for the bride of Christ.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/28/15 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
[quote=Karen Y] Mark, I do not believe that James White has ever interpreted the seven trumpets. . . .The matter fact every chapters of the Revelation have imagery of sanctuary.


https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/ thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation

Mark, this link might be helpful to your query regarding who wrote the interpretation of the seven trumpets; was it James White or Uriah Smith(?). Arthur White, custodian of the EG White manuscripts, has told us the answer.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/28/15 07:23 PM

You mean
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1945/01/thoughts-on-daniel-and-the-revelation

Elder White admitted the futility of his attempting to go on with the work, and announced that, since he was away from home much of the time, "Brother Smith has consented to conclude the book, commencing with Chapter X."—Ibid., Oct. 21, 1862.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/29/15 05:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Also Karen, ... You're probably aware that Ellen White applies all of Revelation 11 to the future and that she admonishes us to study that chapter because, she says, it's a description of what will take place in the cities of the world. If you need the SOP references, let me know.


Mark, please let me know the SOP references. I would appreciate that. I have also mentioned about the seven thunders in this thread in the past. I hope that you can find it. If not, I have to find another time to share my understanding of that.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/29/15 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Mark, please let me know the SOP references. I would appreciate that. I have also mentioned about the seven thunders in this thread in the past. I hope that you can find it. If not, I have to find another time to share my understanding of that.


Here is the main one I'm aware of. Notice the context, the San Francisco earthquake:
Quote:
Yesterday, on our way home from Mountain View, we stopped to take a view of the destruction in San Francisco. Notwithstanding some of the buildings were of the most stable kind and were supposed to be proof against disaster, the city is a ruin. In some places the buildings are sunken into the ground. This city presents a most powerful picture of the inefficiency of human devising and human skill to withstand the carrying out of the Lord's mandate. {21MR 91.2}
For our people to begin commercial enterprises in such a place will be to soothe the fears of those to whom they will come with the Bible message of truth. {21MR 91.3}

Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book. {21MR 91.4}

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." It will not be to the credit of any who believe the word of the prophecies of this book to ignore the special indications of God, and show indifference in regard to this wonderful display of the power of God because of the sins of this city recently destroyed. The Lord forbid that those who have witnessed this great destruction shall make light of the matter and flatter themselves that in the future they will have buildings far in advance of any buildings they have yet had. For if those who have felt the rebuke of God shall set themselves defiantly to invest their means as they have done, God will exercise His power to counteract their efforts. This calamity calls for men who have abused their privileges and taken advantage of their fellow men, to make amends for the wrong they have done. The Lord has spoken. Will men hear His voice? {21MR 91.5}


For those who are open to it, I think it would be wise to apply her advice regarding the lessons to learn from San Francisco to 9/11 as well. As some faithful non-Adventist preachers have pointed out, the general response of America to that terrible disaster has been to ignore it and say "we will rebuild even better and come back stronger". Economic and physical recovery are fine but without repentance they are a distraction and miss the point. Notice what she says the result of ignoring the warning will be.

Karen I'll use the search feature and see if I can't find your thunders comment. It may be a few days.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/30/15 01:34 PM

Quote:
Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book. {21MR 91.4}


My perspective on the seven trumpets is present and future because it announces the close of the probation and the coming judgment of the seven plagues. We are told that the seventh trumpet takes “days…to sound”. (Rev. 10:7). The entire message of the seven trumpets may declare simultaneously in the “In the days of their prophecy” (Rev. 11:6).

Take a notice that the seventh trumpet announces for the “kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”(Rev. 11:15). How long this announcement last? It said, “days”.

Upon the proclamation, the twenty-four elders fall before God on their faces, saying, “thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name”. (Rev. 11:18). They also say, “thy wrath is come”. The terrors of the wrath are manifested in the temple where the ark of the testament exists.

When the temple is opened in heaven, the “lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail” (Rev. 11:19) have revealed but have not executed until the vial of the seventh plague poured out. There was “a great voice out of the temple of heaven...saying, It is done” (Rev. 16:17), then the terrors of the “voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and …a great earthquake…a great hail” fell upon men out of heaven. (Rev. 16:18-21).

Evidently, the two witnesses prophesy the coming judgment of God just as Moses has announced the judgment upon the Pharaoh and Elijah to the king Ahab.

Exodus 7:1-2, 4 “And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.”
“But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.”

1 King 17:1 “And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.”

Rev. 11:6 “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

The very manner here depicted, reveals that nothing can interfere with their witness-bearing until they shall have finished their testimony. The two witnesses will prophesy about the close of the probation and the coming judgment to the Antichrist Empire.

We must reconsider the seven trumpets.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/05/15 06:17 AM

Must we interpret the Seven Trumpets in historicist approach?

1 Cor. 14:7-8 “And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”

Each chapter of the Book of Revelation transpires the image of the sanctuary, which indicates that the story of redemption in the sanctuary service is the key to interpret the prophecy of this book.

Chap. 1 – Jesus is walking amongst the Seven Candlesticks
Chap. 2 & 3 – Seven Churches in the midst of the tabernacle
Chap. 4 – Throne of God, 4 beasts, & 24 Elders
Chap. 5 – Sealed book with seven seals, the host of angels, & the universal beings
Chap. 6 – martyrs cry out under the altar
Chap. 7 – 4 beasts holding the winds for the sealing of God’s people, wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and serving before the throne of God
Chap. 8 – prayers of the saint ascend up before God out of the angel’s hand upon the golden altar; there are the ark of covenant, the altar of incense, and the seven candlesticks before the throne of God
Chap. 9 – a voice from the golden altar which is before God said to loose the four angels because Jesus’ intercession has ceased.
Chap. 10 – Jesus is entering the second veil (judgment and the restoration of Sabbath)
Chap. 11 – there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (the Ten
Commandment)
Chap. 12 – the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Ten
Commandment)
Chap. 13 – Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; sacrificial offering in the sanctuary
Chap. 14 – angel came out of the temple command to harvest the grains and the ripen grapes
Chap. 15 – the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened
Chap. 16 – a great voice out of the temple of heaven, “It is done”; entire commands always come out of the temple
Chap. 17 – whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; book of life is in temple of God
Chap. 18 – come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,…receive not of her plagues
Chap. 19 – out of temple of heaven; Jesus clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and comes with the armies of heaven
Chap. 20 – saints live and reign with Christ a thousand years in heaven
Chap. 21 – the tabernacle of God is with men and saw no temple therein; redemption of men is completed so no need of the temple
Chap. 22 – river of life and tree of life

The entire chapters are full of the imageries of the sanctuary.

Psalms 77:13 “Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?”

Are we to measure the redemption of God, which is so deep and great, with the history of the earth? How can we measure the sky with span of our hand? Are we to interpret the Seven Trumpets (Chap. 8 – 11) only with the history of the earth and the rest of the chapters of the book of Revelation in the perspective of the sanctuary? I do not think so. The book of Revelation has to be understood in the perspective of the redemption of God, which is depicted in the sanctuary. Historicist approach to interpret the seven trumpet is like calling a big thing small, and a small thing big. In another words, the great redemption made a small thing, and the history of the earth, which is small thing compare to everlasting life, made a big thing.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/05/15 07:34 AM

I fully believe Revelation is the revelation of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and that the historicist interpretation fully supports this.

Thus I find your question, which seems to think the two are incompatible, troubling.

I hope you won't mind if I ask some questions:

When you speak of the sanctuary do you see it's main operation only now or only in the future, not in history?

Do you think Christ's sanctuary ministry was not involved with earth's history?

Do you believe the "sanctuary" also includes, and deems as important the first phase of 1812 years (32-1844)in the Holy Place?
And that Revelation had a message for the people living in those years?



Do you think that people who see the prophecies as God working with the nations and with His people throughout the Christian era somehow not dealing with the redemption of God?

How is studying the full scope of the "great controversy between Christ and Satan" throughout Christian history and culminating with the last confrontation and final victory at the Advent of Christ, "small" while channelling everything into a study of a quick succession of calamities just before the end is "big"?

How does the interpretation putting the seven trumpets as a succession of these calamities in a short period just before the end present everlasting life in any "bigger way" then the interpretation that sees God's warnings and judgments throughout Christian history, leading up to the final judgment when the time has come to reward the saints and destroy them that destroy the earth?

I guess another question is -- have you ever REALLY studied the historicist interpretation?
Have you ever read Stephen Haskell's book "Seer of Patmos"?

It's very much about Christ's ministry in the sanctuary and it is the historical interpretation.

It is precisely the "history of the earth" that shows God's redemptive love. It is the very thing God is redeeming us from.

How can we know the powers that will try to rob us of eternal life if we don't know who they are?
Historical prophetic interpretation shows who they are, as well as how to gain the victory over them through Christ.

Quote:
"As I see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history." {CET 204.1}

Solomon tells us in Eccl 1:9 "The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Paul tells us the past was recorded for our admonition.
1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The past always has a way of returning. Those who don't learn, or can't remember it, cannot see the signs of it's approach and will be overwhelmed by it.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/05/15 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Do you have any thoughts on the seven thunders? They come in at the sixth trumpet just before the Two Witnesses but I think that, like the Two Witnesses, the thunders may span much of the trumpets. Again, any thoughts?


The seven thunders are part of Revelation 10.
Revelation 10 is a description of the Millerite movement, as the book of Daniel is opened and the time lines are studied.
It is sweet as honey in the mouth, but becomes bitter as the people face a great disappoint.

Indeed it is between the sixth and seventh trumpet.
And it is at this time that seven thunders start to rumble.

They have something to do with the three angel's messages.

Quote:
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order....
The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work....
That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. 1MR 99-100
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/06/15 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication

I guess another question is -- have you ever REALLY studied the historicist interpretation?

Historicist interpretation on Chap. 8-11 has diversity of views even within dedicated Adventists. We can not say that the trumpets are making a certain sound such a way. There also can be no possible understanding without a thorough knowledge of the history of the nations involving Christendom. We should be able to understand the prophecy at an one glance.(Hab. 2:2).

[url=http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2012/01/the-seven-trumpets-of-revelation][/url]
Quote:
"Diversity of views
The following chart illustrates how the application of the previous principles of interpretation to the trumpets by dedicated Adventists could result in a diversity of views regarding the prophecy’s precise historical fulfillment. This chart is not comprehensive but illustrative.4"-Ministry Magazine/2012/01


Quote:
Habakkuk 2:2 "And the LORD anwered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it"


Quote:
Isa. 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”


The four angels hear a command from the temple to loose the hold (Rev. 9:13-15), which they were holding while the sealing of God (Rev. 7:1-3), progressed. In another words, the close of the probation suddenly transpire at the moment of the command-at the point of a time.

The introductory vision for the seven trumpets reveals that Jesus is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary while the seven angels stood before God and watching the judgment. (Rev. 8:2-5). After Jesus cast ashes of the golden altar, the seven angels prepare to sound, which means they change their actions subsequently to blast the trumpets. These angels are the ones who observed the judgment of God. “A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.” Dan. 7:10

The entire of the seven trumpets are sounding about the close of the probation. Of course, it would be no use if we attempt to plug-in the events of the seven trumpet in a timeline after the close of the probation. Nonetheless, in the spirit of prophecy God’s people realize what is coming imminently will blow the message of the seven trumpets prior to the close of the probation to wake up the church and in the same time warn the world of coming seven last plagues.

Notice that the four angels are holding the four corners of the earth for the apocalyptic sealing. There is a command that “hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees” (Rev. 7:3) and “it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4 – fifth trumpet).

Each of the seven trumpets talk about the things get “hurt”, which means the four angels are loosed and “hurt” of the earth, the sea, and the trees occur upon the close of the probation.

Notice also that the each of the seven plagues correlate with the seven trumpets, which indicate that the seven trumpets are the warnings of the coming last seven plagues.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/07/15 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Do you have any thoughts on the seven thunders? They come in at the sixth trumpet just before the Two Witnesses but I think that, like the Two Witnesses, the thunders may span much of the trumpets. Again, any thoughts?


The parenthetical portion that comes in between the 6th and 7th trumpets is an evidence of divine order, which is similar parentheses in the 6th and 7th seals and the 6th and 7th vials.

In the tenth chapter we find that the Lord is preparing His people for the restoration of Sabbath truth and understanding of the sanctuary above prior to unfold the great mystery; the seven thunders.

The mighty Angel "cried as a lion roareth", which is the voice of conqueror and "when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices" (Rev. 10:3). This voice was heard when the first beast said, "come and see" as Jesus opened the first seal. The voice was "as it were the noise of thunder" (Rev. 6:1).
The first beast "was like a lion" (Rev. 4:7) that roared as the thunder to conquer the world with a message of the mystery. Apostle Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51) referring to the second coming of Jesus.

The Second Coming of Jesus is the greatest mystery that was "declared to his servents the prophets" (Rev. 10:7). When the seventh trumpet begin to sound "the mystery of God should be finished" (Rev. 10:7).

There is a command that "write them not" when the seven thunder uttered. The two witnesses have a commission to prophesy first prior to the fulfillment of the mystery.

The seven thunders are like the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars in that the seven churches were upheld. The message of the second coming of Jesus was like thunder in each church period. "Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things" (Matt. 13:17) and preached the second advent of Jesus. The voice of thunder was very loud at the Millerite movement, but it was not the time for Jesus' return, instead, the Sabbath truth must be taught in the light of the heavenly sanctuary. Thus "heard a voice from heaven saying …seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not" (Rev. 10:4).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/08/15 05:51 AM

Many do not read and study the book of Revelation for themselves. If we read the book at one sitting with outlines in view, we may understand the prophecy book much easier and will grasp the flow of the storylines better in depth each time.

The book of Revelation starts with the introduction (Chap. 1) saying, "the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Jesus speaks to His church on earth. He tells the seven churches (Chap. 2-3) that they must become the overcomers and be purified. Anyone who has an ear to hear will be strengthened to overcome the world.

Jesus promised the saints that they would be granted to sit on the throne of God if they overcome (Rev. 3:21). Next, He unfolds the vision of the throne room (Chap. 4-5).
Round about the throne, there are the four beasts, and 24 Elders, and the host of angels, and the universal beings which comprised of the five groups of the heavenly counsel. They are intensely involved of the salvation of the mankind.

Jesus is worthy to unseal the book that was sealed with the seven seals (Rev. 6). The unfolding of the seven seals usher into "the great day of his wrath" and question arise, "who shall be able to stand?"

In unfolding the drama, there is an interlude or a pause to explain that God has his sealed saints even in the midst of the turmoil of the unsealing of the seven seals. They are the multitudes and the 144K. One is of resurrected saints and of the alive ones at the second coming of Jesus. 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

As the seventh seal broke in the Chap. 8:1, the heaven becomes silenced in their awe because the mankind stubbornly refuses to repent and the terrible judgment of the seven plagues is about to fall upon the earth.

Here is a supplemental vision again to assure the saints of God that Jesus is interceding for the saints in the heavenly sanctuary until the last message of mercy goes out in the seven trumpets.

The subject of the seven trumpets (Chap. 8-11) is that the probation is going to be close very soon and the seven literal plagues are going to fall. While the message of the seven trumpets goes out, there is another pause in Chap. 10-11:14. In the chapters the restoration of the Sabbath issue has to be addressed to the world before this world becomes the kingdom of God. The seventh trumpet is an announcement so as all the other trumpets.

The Chap. 12-14 is another supplemental visions to reveal the identity of the Satan.

The Chap. 15-16 is the seven last plagues that are literal events.

The Chap. 17-18 is also supplemental visions to unfold about the collapse of the Antichrist power.

Chap. 19 is second coming of Jesus.

Chap. 20 is about the millennium.

Chap. 21 is New Jerusalem.

Chap. 22 is conclusion of the book of Revelation.

Keep these outlines in mind as you read the book of Revelation for yourself. I trust that you will have easier understanding of the book of Revelation.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/18/15 09:34 PM

Does Sunday law causes the seven last plagues to fall or the Sunday law decrees because of the seven last plagues?

Do we see any shadows of the last seven plagues nowadays that are falling?

SOP seems to say, in order to stop the plague the decree went out.

Quote:
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus’ work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed. A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob’s trouble.” EW 36.2


If the name of God is blasphemed which is in the Sabbath commandment (the fourth) it is logical to think that the wicked receive the fourth plague. The sun will scorch them with a great heat by the plague. Their hearts are so much hardened that they still will not repent their deeds of violating the fourth commandment of the Sabbath and they remain defiant to God.

The saints of God will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. The wicked will trouble them because they hate the seal of God (Sabbath).
Quote:
EW pg.33 "And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully."


Jacob's heritage is Sabbath. The issue of the Jacob's trouble is Sabbath.

Quote:
Isa. 58:13, 14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it"


God has commanded the evil force not to hurt the people who has the seal of God.
Quote:
Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
But the wicked continued to blaspheme the name of God and earned their way for the reward of the fourth plague that poured upon the sun with the great heat.

It is time for us to make a certain sound that the Sabbath of the LORD is the seventh day (Saturday) of the week not Sunday which is the first day of the week!
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/19/15 03:07 AM

Keep up the good work Karen. It's time to share the message.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/27/15 04:14 PM

Quote:
"In the last conflict the Sabbath will be the special point of controversy throughout all Christendom….In the issue of the contest all Christendom will be divided into two great classes-- those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark" - Maranatha pg. 188


The cause of the fourth plague is because of the Baal (Sunday) worship. The sun, moon and the stars are showing signs of trouble -"a third part of it, darkened" (Rev. 8:12). Sun scorching hot with heat and people stroked with the heat waves.
Are we not seeing the fourth plague falling yet even there was hundreds people died last week in Pakistan?

Let the fourth trumpet blow the sound to warn the world and call people out of the Spiritual Babylon! The warfare of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is sure point of the great issue.

The Baal worship came into church which signified by Jezebel in the fourth church. During the Dark Ages the saints were killed by the beast power of the fourth seal (Rev. 6:8).

The seat of the beast is full of darkness and tormented with pain. This is the fifth plague upon the beast (Rev. 16:10). Why do they deserve the plague? It is because they prevented men not to receive the seal of God. Thus the torment is warned by the fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:5).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/30/15 07:10 PM

Quote:
"It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of the Sunday-sabbath, that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced…" The Great Controversy pg. 590


Quote:
"On June 18, 2015, Vatican PR officially released in multiple languages Pope Francis's much-anticipated 183-page encyclical addressing climate change titled "Praised Be"- a title based on an ancient song called "Canticle of the Sun" attributed to St. Francis of Assisi written in 1224 A.D. Significantly, the Pope's encyclical includes a strong appeal to keep Sunday." advindicate.com/articles/2015/6/28/the-popes-encyclical-and-the-mark-of-the-beast


The enforcing of the Sunday-sabbath will bring the “calamities”, which means that the calamities usher to the final fourth plague. We have already eye witnessed so many “calamities” that caused by the “sun scorching men with fire” (Rev. 16:8-9).

Quote:
“In accidents and calamities by sea and by land in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms,...”
The Great Controversy pg. 589


The planet earth is in crisis due to the heavenly bodies are working so unnatural. Enforcing the Sunday observance is the original cause. God is revealing this issue so clearly in the fourth plague. It is blaspheming God when men insist their own way of the Sunday observance.

Quote:
“And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, …” Rev. 16:9

Quote:
“In his encyclical, Pope Francis promotes “the Sunday-sabbath”(EGW) which, he states, if observed more fully, would help “heal our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world” (Pope). Humanity would thus stop “offending God”(EGW), until they finally “yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance”(EGW) to help save the planet.”- Advindicate.com-The Pope’s Encyclical And The Mark Of The Beast.

The fourth plague, we see, the “calamities” already upon the earth.
In the fourth church, the Baal worship (Sunday observance) came in which signified by Jezebel’s attempt.
In the fourth seal, power was given unto the pale horse to “kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth” (Rev. 6:8). We know that this has happened during the Dark Ages.
The fourth trumpet has to be present and future event. Notice, it is talking about “the sun was smitten” (Rev. 8:12), which entails to false worship. Thus the fourth trumpet message is to warn the world that the Seventh-Day Sabbath (Saturday) is the true Sabbath. Please do not blaspheme the name of God by enforcing the Sunday observance of Sabbath.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/03/15 11:31 PM

Interesting use of fractions.

Re 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Officials: Much of Pacific Ocean threatened by Fukushima releases, an area covering 1/3 of globe
— US: “States in region understandably concerned for safety”… “Urgent need” to assess impact on food, water — IAEA begins testing around Pacific
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/05/15 06:23 AM

Quote:
“These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals.” – The Great Controversy, 629


In the warning of the second trumpet, the one third denotes a partial impact. Otherwise, whole inhabitants would be cut off. An apparent correlation to the second plague obviously voiced in the second trumpet as “the sea became blood” (Rev. 8:8).

Quote:
“And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea” Rev. 16:3


The seawater become deadly as plague because “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy” (Rev. 16:6). “…Thou art righteous, O Lord, …because thou hast judged thus” (Rev. 16:5).

How much shed the blood of saints? The power “was given to him”, which the red horse in the second seal, “was given unto him a great sword” (Rev. 6:4). Thus Jesus says to the second church of Smyrna, “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10)

The “third part of the sea became blood;” (Rev. 8:8) indicates that the ocean foods are not safe to consume. It will turn out to be deadly. Let this be the trumpet sound to warn the world for the harm of the sea has begun.

Quote:
“Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may know what is coming.” – Maranatha pg. 200


The four angels on the four corners of the earth are releasing their hold, and “hurt the earth and the sea” has begun.

“…having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and THE SEA, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” Rev. 7:2,3

The four angels were command to hold until “the servants of our God” would be sealed. The end of the probation is fast approaching. Each of the trumpet sound is about the four angels are releasing their hold and “hurt the earth and the sea” occur. Notice in the sixth trumpet that the four angels that are bound in the river Euphrates was commanded to “loose” their hold.

Quote:
“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates” Rev. 9:13-14.


The voice came from the altar means the voice of God. After the release of the four angels, “and with them they DO HURT” (Rev. 9:19) has occurred.

Overall, the first four trumpets declare about the earth, the sea, the rivers and fountains of water, and the heavenly bodies have begun the process of the HURT. These impacts are in the physical phenomenon of the natural world.

The next three of the HURT are spiritual. The spiritual disasters are worse trouble than the physical conditions. No wonder why it is said, “woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,” (Rev. 8:13).

Quote:
“Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us” – Maranatha pg. 257
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/06/15 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Quote:
“These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals.” – The Great Controversy, 629


In the warning of the second trumpet, the one third denotes a partial impact. Otherwise, whole inhabitants would be cut off. An apparent correlation to the second plague obviously voiced in the second trumpet as “the sea became blood” (Rev. 8:8).

Quote:
“And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea” Rev. 16:3


The seawater become deadly as plague because “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy” (Rev. 16:6). “…Thou art righteous, O Lord, …because thou hast judged thus” (Rev. 16:5).
I think this is the only place where there could be said a difference between the trumpets and the plagues. The one a third died, the other, every living soul died. Other than that appearing to be discrepancy, the rest is in harmony.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/08/15 06:26 AM

Quote:
- Kland-I think this is the only place where there could be said a difference between the trumpets and the plagues. The one a third died, the other, every living soul died. Other than that appearing to be discrepancy, the rest is in harmony.


I believe that God has His divine order in the way it says that. I'm prayerfully asking God to give us a clear understanding.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/13/15 07:21 AM

The fourth plague poured upon men as a result of the blasphemy of the name of God. The Scripture is clear that the seventh day Sabbath observance is ordained in the creation.
Quote:
Gen. 2:1-3 “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”


The seventh day Sabbath is a sign between God and His people.
Quote:
Ezekiel 20:20 “And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.”


Can men change God’s holy day, the seventh day Sabbath? That would be a blaspheming the name of God. However, the beast power “think to change times and laws;” (Dan. 7:25) and enforces the mark of the beast, which is the counterfeit of the seal of God, the Sabbath. No wonder that the seat of the beast deserves the fifth plague because he forbid men to receive the seal of God.

Rev. 16:10 “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast;…”

Notice the fifth plague that the kingdom of the beast would not repent even they “gnawed their tongues with pain” but still “blasphemed the God of heaven”.

Quote:
Rev. 16:10, 11 “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast;
and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”


Whoever does not receive the seal of God, they would be tormented as to seek death and desire to die, but death shall flee from them. This is what the fifth trumpet is talking about.

There was a command in the fifth trumpet not to hurt men with the seal God in their foreheads but only those without.

Quote:
Rev. 9:4 “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

Rev. 9:6 “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

The seal of God, the Sabbath, is the truth that torments them. They would have rejoiced if they could get rid of the Sabbath keepers who are the cause of their torment. Rev. 11:10 “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets (the word of God or the truth) tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”
In the fifth seal, the martyrs of the Lord cry under the altar saying, “How long, O Lord, …dost thou not judge and avenge our blood” (Rev. 6:9-10).

Notice in the fifth church, there were men who are worthy to walk with Jesus because they defiled not their garments. During the reformation church period, many became martyrs of the Lord for truth. In our days, the trumpet must make a certain sound to exodus people from the kingdom of the beast. Rev. 18:4, “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

Many would come out from the kingdom of the beast by the trumpet sound. The fifth plague is already upon the seat of the beast. Their kingdom is now full of darkness. Let the seven trumpets blast its sound!

Who prohibits receiving the seal of God? The beast power that received their power from the dragon says the Scripture. Rev. 13:2,4 “…the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority… the dragon which gave power unto the beast:”. They are to destroy people by forbidding the seal of God. They have a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon or Apollyon, which means a destroyer. So the fifth trumpet is clearly indicated that the destroyer has the key of the bottomless pit. This is none other than the fallen star from heaven, which is the Devil, the Satan.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/17/15 09:34 PM

The fifth plague is poured out to the seat of the beast. There exists “full of names of blasphemy” (Rev. 17:3). In the kingdom of the beast, many of the “martyrs of Jesus” (Rev. 17:6) evidently exist. Thus the martyrs cry out, “How long, O Lord,.. does thou not judge and avenge our blood” (Rev. 6:10) at the fifth seal.

The martyrs are worthy to walk with Jesus because they defiled not their garments of the fifth church.

Behold the woman of the harlot where the fifth plague is poured out; she is fulfilling the prophecy “until the words of God shall be fulfilled” (Rev. 17:17)!

Quote:
Rev. 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand"


Quote:
Rev. 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:…"


The time is at hand! The star that fell from heaven in the fifth trumpet is the Devil, the Satan who is unleashing the earth through the beast power so people may not receive the seal of God.

Let us blow the trumpet's certain sound!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/21/15 06:33 AM

The Satan’s alliance is the beast that endeavors to prevent mankind to receive the seal of God. The beast has received his power from the dragon (Rev. 13:2, 4). God has given a space to repent but “repented not” (Rev. 2:21). The kingdom of the beast will not repent even with “gnawed their tongues for pain” but “blasphemed the God of heaven” (Rev. 16:10, 11).

Martyrs of the Lord appeared even where Satan’s seat was. Antipas the faithful martyr of Christ came out from where the Satan’s seat was (Rev. 2:13). The martyrs of the fifth seal cry out, “How long, O Lord,…avenge our blood” (Rev. 6:10).

Notice that the fifth plague that poured out upon the seat of the beast. God has heard the cries of the martyrs and His judgment has executed to them for “they have shed the blood of saints and prophets”(Rev. 16:6).

Those who are worthy to walk with Christ “which they have not defiled their garments” (Rev. 3:4) in the fifth church of the Sardis are the martyrs. There were many martyrs during the Reformation Church era. And there will be many more come out as martyrs from the kingdom of the beast at the end.

The fifth trumpet is alarming to the “inhabiters of the earth” (Rev. 8:13) that the fallen star from the heaven will open the bottomless pit to let his associate to unleash the earth with spiritual delusional deceptions except those who have “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). Those who fall into this deception will “seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them” (Rev. 9:6) because they would not repent even with “gnawed their tongues for pain” (Rev. 16:10).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/25/15 05:44 AM

The beast originated from the “Satan’s seat” which is the fallen star from heaven (Rev. 9:1) that has “the key of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1). Rev. 11:7 “…the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” and Rev. 17:8 “The beast…shall ascend out of the bottomless pit…” are the associates of the Satan.

The beast with “full of names of blasphemy” (Rev. 17:3) must receive just due. Rev. 18:6 “Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: …” It is awe to discern what the beast does. The kingdom of the beast is “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Rev. 17:6) and “was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth” (Rev. 18:24).

Rev. 16:5,6 “…Thou art righteous, O Lord, …because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.”

The fifth trumpet is alarming to the “inhabiters of the earth” (Rev. 8:13) that the fallen star from the heaven will open the bottomless pit to let his associate to unleash the earth with spiritual delusional deceptions except those who have “the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). Those who fall into his deception will “seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them” (Rev. 9:6) because they would not repent even with “gnawed their tongues for pain” (Rev. 16:10).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/29/15 06:12 AM

The kingdom of the beast receives the fifth plague; “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds” (Rev. 16:10,11).

The kingdom of the beast has snatched people’s prayers, which are depicted as odours or smoke. Rev. 5:8 “…and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints”. Rev. 8:3,4 “…having golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand”.


Thus the martyrs of the fifth seal cry out, “How long, O Lord, …dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them” (Rev. 6:10). Many of them came out from the reformation era of the fifth church. And there are more to come out from their kingdom (Rev. 18:4).


The fallen star of the fifth trumpet, which is Satan, was granted to have the key of the bottomless pit. Then he gave power to his associate, the beast, who operated to cause smoke to come out of the pit to darkened the sun and the air. Rev. 9:2 “…the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit”. Another words, the reason of the darkness was of the smoke, which depicts prayers. The prayers of people should only ascend to the throne of God but the kingdom of the beast made their religious system to prevent this. No wonder that their kingdom must receive the fifth plague that is full of darkness.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/31/15 06:29 AM

Jesus said, I “have the keys of hell and of death” (Rev. 1:18). He will cast the hell and death into the lake of fire –“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Rev. 20:14).

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Rev. 20:10).
Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

Nevertheless, power is granted to the fallen angel until the words of God is fulfilled. And he has the key of the bottomless pit, which depict earth.
The fifth seal said, “…they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” (Rev. 6:11)

In the fifth trumpet, the fallen angel has the key of the bottomless pit and desperately wants to destroy people through his associate that is the beast of the Antichrist. That is why his name is called Abaddon, or Apollyon, which means destroyer and an angel of the king over the Antichrist kingdom.
Nonetheless, “It was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads’” (Rev. 9:4). In the Scripture, the trees and green grass depict mankind. This spiritual being is able to distinguish who has the seal of God and who has not because it was commanded them that they should not hurt men with the seal of God even in their desperation to torment.

In the fifth church of the Sardis, there were “a few…have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy” (Rev. 3:4). These saints could not be touched by the demonic activities. Jesus has promised that their names will be in the book of life (Rev. 3:5).

God has pronounced in the fifth trumpet that the seat of the beast and his kingdom was full of darkness, which is poured out as the wrath of God for they deserve the punishment. The smoke came out from the bottomless pit and caused the sun and the air to be darkened. They tried to prevent men not to receive the seal of God and enforced the mark of the beast.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/14/15 07:16 PM

The fifth trumpet is announcement to “the inhabiters of the earth” (Rev. 8:13) that “the seat of the beast and his kingdom was (are) full of darkness”(Rev. 16:10) and they caused “the sun and the air darkened”(Rev. 9:2). This certain sound of the fifth trumpet exposes the devil's act that gave his power, seat and authority to the beast of his alliance (Rev. 13:2).

The fifth Plague => the seat of the beast and his kingdom darkened
The fifth Trumpet => the fallen star from heaven (Satan) received the key of the bottomless pit (control of the earth) and he gave the power, the seat and the authority to the beast that instigated the darkness.
The fifth Church => Reformers came out from the beast kingdom like Martin Luther.
The fifth Seal => there were martyrs that came out.

Rev. 18:4 “…Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues”

As we look closer to the above golden thread, we may perceive that the time of the end many martyrs would be coming out from the kingdom of the beast.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/14/15 07:46 PM

Rev. 16:11 “And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds”.

Why did the soreness arise when the fifth plague poured upon the seat of the beast?

There was “grievous soreness” upon the men who received the mark of the beast in the first plague.

Rev. 16:2 “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image”

Is there a golden thread that we need to understand between the first and the fifth plagues?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/15/15 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Rev. 16:11 “And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds”.
. . .

Rev. 16:2 “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image”

Is there a golden thread that we need to understand between the first and the fifth plagues?


Good observations Sister Karen. The first plague is poured out on the earth, the fifth is poured out on the seat of the Beast. Each plague is poured out on a specific object. But like you say, there is parallel between the first and fifth plagues in terms of results - sores and pain. And then comparing that with the fifth seal and trumpet there are also some parallels there. The fifth trumpet depicts five months of agony from "stings" of these unnatural "locuts". The resulting pain is so intense men will long to die. All three calamities - the first and fifth plague and the fifth trumpet - remind me of radiation burns and radiation sickness. Gruesome thought. I hope I'm wrong.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/15/15 07:11 PM

I thought you also made a good observation on the darkness connection between the fifth plague and trumpet. Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/15/15 09:20 PM

Rev. 8:7 “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees and was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up”

Notice, the first trumpet that is fortelling about the “third part of trees and …all green grass.. burnt up”.

Rev. 9:4 “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

There is a command in the fifth trumpet, “not (to) hurt the grass …any green thing…any tree”.

The Scripture depicts tree and green grass as mankind. The first trumpet indicates that the mankind would be hurt except those have the seal of God in their foreheads as denoted by the fifth trumpet.

I find very interesting points here. Comparing between the plagues of the first and the fifth to the trumpets of the first and the fifth tells us glaring transparency.

Anyone receives the mark of the beast he/she would be hurt but people receives the seal of God they would be protected.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/19/15 05:56 AM

What has denoted the smoke that arose from the bottomless pit in the Chap.9 of Revelation?

The smoke rose up when the fallen angel has opened the bottomless pit with the key that was given to him.

Luke 10:18 “…I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”, Jesus said.

God has given Satan a time to do what he wishes to do upon the earth. Notice, “and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:1)”. Thus he has employed an agent to instigate a smoke out of the pit.

“Sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit (Rev. 9:2)”.

The darkness caused by the smoke of the pit! What means “by the reason of the smoke of the pit”?

Consider the reason of the Babylon’s fall. Rev. 18:2 “…Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen,…” Rev. 18:19 “…Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!...”

The “reason of her costliness” was their scheme, which caused their own destruction.

Apostle John used the same expression in John 6:18, “And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew”.

Accordingly, “by the reason of the smoke of the pit” means that the smoke was the cause of the darkness in the fifth trumpet that is a warning to the coming plague.

Take a look at the fifth plague, which the seat of the beast and his kingdom was “full of darkness”.

Conclusively, the kingdom of the beast caused darkness with the smoke that signifies the prayers of the saints. Rev. 5:8 “…and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” The prayers must ascend to the throne of God. Rev. 8:4 “and the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God…”

The kingdom of the beast forbid the saints’ prayers to ascend to God thus the seat of the beast must receive the wrath of God, which is of the fifth plague. They stole the hearts of men like Absalom did from the king David.

Quote:

2 Sam. 15:1And it came to pass after this, that Absalom prepared him chariots and horses, and fifty men to run before him.
2 And Absalom rose up early, and stood beside the way of the gate: and it was so, that when any man that had a controversy came to the king for judgment, then Absalom called unto him, and said, Of what city art thou? And he said, Thy servant is of one of the tribes of Israel.
3 And Absalom said unto him, See, thy matters are good and right; but there is no man deputed of the king to hear thee.
4 Absalom said moreover, Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man which hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice!
5 And it was so, that when any man came nigh to him to do him obeisance, he put forth his hand, and took him, and kissed him.
6 And on this manner did Absalom to all Israel that came to the king for judgment: so Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel.
Posted By: StewartC

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/20/15 06:09 AM

Hello Karen,

I suggest that "the smoke of the pit" represents the false TEACHINGS of Mohammed. This "smoke" had the effect of darkening the "sun" and the "air"


and "there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth..." (Rev 9:2-3).

As a result of those teachings the armies of Arabia came out unified, fearless, and full of zeal. As "locusts" they overwhelmed a huge territory.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/21/15 11:52 PM

Dear StewartC,

False teachings arise where truth present. Can there be a prophetic significance anyway if you were to suggest the smoke as false teachings?

We must follow the principle of “precept upon precept; line upon line…here a little, and there a little;” (Isa. 28:10).

Are there any verses in the Book of Revelation that support to interpret the smoke as ‘teachings of Mohammed’?

Literally speaking, any smoke can darkened the sun and the air. Thus the smoke in Rev. Chap. 9 is obviously symbolic in its meaning.

Many warnings of false teachings already identified in the seven churches. Let us look at a few;

Rev. 2:2 “…thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”
Rev. 2:6 “…thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”
Rev. 2:9 “…I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
Rev. 2:13 “I know…even where Satan’s seat is… where Satan dwelleth”.
Rev. 2:14,15 “But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.”

And the so on…

Why would God indicate that the “smoke” is the false teachings of Mohammed here? The evidence is already given to interpret the smoke as the prayer of the saints in the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 5:8 “…and the golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”
Rev. 8:4 “and the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.”

Prayers of the saints have gone up to the throne of God and the golden vials are filled with the prayers at last when the wrath of God is ready to pour out.
Rev. 15:7 “And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, …”

When the temple is filled with the smoke of the prayers of the saints, then it is the time to pour out the wrath of God.
Rev. 15:8 “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.”

In the Book of Revelation, the smoke depicted as the prayers of the saints. The beast received the power, seat, and authority from the dragon(Rev.13:2), which is the fallen star of Rev. Chap. 9, to blaspheme “against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven (Rev.13:6)”. The identity of the beast is clearly exposed that they would snatch prayers of saints (smoke) to darkened the sun and the air. The beast were allowed to hurt the mankind but commanded not to hurt the men with the seals of God. This is another evidence that the beast is doing the operation of the torments of Rev. Chap. 9 to cause all men to receive the mark of the beast instead of the seal of God.

Rev. 13:16, 17 “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

No wonder, why the fifth vials of the plagues poured upon the seat of the beast which has the fullness of the darkness because they snatched prayers from the mankind!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/31/15 05:47 AM

The golden vial was filled with the prayers of the saints that ascended to the heavenly sanctuary before the throne of God.
The golden vial will pour out its incense of smoke at the time of the seven last plagues in response to the saints' prayers.

Rev. 6:10 “…How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” This prayer will be answered when the golden vial pour out its plague.

Rev. 18:20 “Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her”

Rev. 19:2, 3 “For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood o f his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.”

The smoke is depicted as prayers. By the reason of the smoke the sun and the air became darkened. How appropriate that the beast kingdom plagued with darkness (Rev. 16:10) and her smoke rose up for ever and ever (Rev. 19:3)!
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/04/15 04:56 PM

What has filled the golden vial? It was filled with the prayers of saints (Rev. 5;8).

Why the golden vial poured out as plagues? It is God’s response for the prayers of the saints (Rev. 15:7).

Who ministers for the saints that send their prayers to the throne of God? Jesus Christ mixes His sweet incense to minster (Rev. 8:4).

When is the ministering of Jesus cease in the heavenly sanctuary? It finishes at the time of the ashes of the golden vial cast upon the earth (Rev. 8:5).

Is our prayers ascend to the throne of God return back to the earth as plagues? Yes, God hears our prayers. Rev. 6:10 “…How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

It was very interesting to meditate on the seven last plague judgments which poured out from the golden vials (Rev. 15:7).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/05/15 10:16 PM

The locusts that came out of the smoke received power to hurt the “inhabiters of the earth”. Thus the last three trumpet angels gave the warnings of the three woes to the inhabiters of the earth.

So the fifth trumpet warns the earth that the locusts will hurt them like scorpions excluding those who have the seal of God. If the locusts able to identify who have the seal of God or not, they are the spiritual beings, the evil angels.

The scorpions have power to strike and torment men. In those days, “men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them” (Rev. 9:6). They are so offensive and violent that they have breastplates of iron (verse 9) and teeth of Lions (verse 8). They are triumphant and swift that they have crowns of gold (verse 7) and sound as wings of chariots (verse 9). They are seductive as women (verse 8 –they had hair as the hair of women) and deceptive as men (verse 7 –their faces were as the faces of men). They have power to hurt men on the earth.

Those men on the earth were tormented and they “gnawed their tongues for pain” (Rev. 16:10) but they “repented not of their deeds” (Rev. 16:11).

Has anyone observed of the clear evidence that the fifth trumpet is warning to the fifth plagues?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/06/15 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: StewartC
Hello Karen,

I suggest that "the smoke of the pit" represents the false TEACHINGS of Mohammed. This "smoke" had the effect of darkening the "sun" and the "air"


and "there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth..." (Rev 9:2-3).

As a result of those teachings the armies of Arabia came out unified, fearless, and full of zeal. As "locusts" they overwhelmed a huge territory.
That the "smoke" is false teachings, I agree.

On this thread however, any mention of the Adventist interpretation of the trumpets is vetoed out of hand. So don't be surprised as the author of the "studies" being presented is "reconsidering" that view -- in other words -- disagrees with it.


I agree with you -- and lean to the historicist (not futurist) interpretation of the trumpets.

There is no way that the smoke arising from Satan's domain which darkens the landscape is "the prayers of the saint".

Nor do I believe that the golden censor in Rev. 8 is the same as the golden vials containing the plagues, and that somehow it is "the prayers of the saints" that are poured out on the unbelievers causing the plagues.

There is DARK smoke of evil, and falsehood,
And there is the smoke of incense of prayers, and glorious, bright, smoke of righteousness --

They are NOT the same.

But then -- I find these studies as simply a strange mixture of playing with and mixing a lot of symbolism and whenever one tries to see a definite concrete meaning it all shifts to more and often different symbolism, till nothing seems to have any definite meaning anymore -- I've long ago given up trying to even get the basic meaning of what is presented on this thread, as it seems to shift and mix symbols so often becoming a veritable playground of playing with symbols.

That's not to say there aren't any good points, there are, but the overall "reconsidering" is confusion. The only consistent truth in the "study" is that there is trouble ahead with the forces of evil, and that somehow God will deal with it, those who are sealed have God's protection, those who are not suffer and loose eternity.
Sometimes the trumpets are presented in these "studies" as warnings before the plagues, sometimes as contemporary with the plagues --
but don't look for it to be the basic Adventists understanding, -- that will be vetoed out of hand. It's all taken out of the realm of history and earthly powers and placed in the realm of symbolic spirituality.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/06/15 01:27 PM

Quote:
But then -- I find these studies as simply a strange mixture of playing with and mixing a lot of symbolism and whenever one tries to see a definite concrete meaning it all shifts to more and often different symbolism, till nothing seems to have any definite meaning anymore -- I've long ago given up trying to even get the basic meaning of what is presented on this thread, as it seems to shift and mix symbols so often becoming a veritable playground of playing with symbols.


Isa. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/07/15 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

Nor do I believe that the golden censor in Rev. 8 is the same as the golden vials containing the plagues, and that somehow it is "the prayers of the saints" that are poured out on the unbelievers causing the plagues.



This is my study that gave me an understanding how the prayers of the golden vial turns to the wrath of God.

Psalm 66:19 “But verily God hath heard me; he hath attended to the voice of my prayer.”
God of heaven hears our prayers.

Psalm 35:13 “But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.”
Prayers return to righteous as blessings.

Heb. 5:7 “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;”

Jesus Christ our righteousness. His ministration in the heavenly sanctuary makes possible to access to the throne of God. Jesus has the golden vial to receive saints' prayers. But those wicked cannot received God's grace and mercy even the saints pray for them.

Isa. 1:15 “And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.”

Psalm 76:10 “Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.”

Notice that the king Hezekiah prayed and in response to his prayer the king of Assyria Sennacherib was slayed by the angel of the Lord.

Isa. 37:15 “And Hezekiah prayed unto the Lord, saying,”

Isa. 37:21,22 “Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria: This is the word which the Lord hath spoken concerning him;…”

Isa. 37:36 “Then the angel of theI Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.”

The prayers that ascended to the golden vial before the altar where Jesus ministrates now will eventually turn to the wrath of God and pour out as the last seven plagues to the wicked.

Rev. 5:8 "…and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints"

Rev. 8:3 "And another angel (Jesus Christ) came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."

Rev. 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

The golden vial with ashes will be casted into the earth when Jesus' ministration of the intercession ceases. The ashes that poured out upon the earth are the wrath of God in the seven last plagues, which displayed as voices, thunderings, lightnings, and earthquakes.

Rev. 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake".

Rev. 15:7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever".

When the golden vials spill upon the earth, there are the terrors of the Lord.

Rev. 16:17,18 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial …"
"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,…"
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/25/15 02:03 AM

Prayers of the saints ascend to the throne of God. The four beasts and the 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them…golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints(Rev. 5:8). The four beasts assist with the golden vials full of prayers.

"…How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev. 6:10).

Saints of the Lord, Martyrs of Jesus and all the slain upon the earth (Rev. 17:6, 18:24) cry to the God of heaven and those prayers ascend in the golden vial before the throne of God.

This is the promise of God; "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6:11).

Prov. 11:8 "The righteous is delivered out of trouble, and the wicked cometh in his stead"

At the time of the golden vial spills as the plagues, four beasts assist to hand down the seven last plagues to the seven angels. Now the golden vial is full of the wrath of God.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/26/15 05:30 AM

Rev. 8:13 KJV “And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”

Rev. 8:13 NASB “Then I looked, and I heard [a]an eagle flying in (A)midheaven, saying with a loud voice, “(B)Woe, woe, woe to (C)those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the (D)three angels who are about to sound!”

There is, in the verse, a call for an attention and urgency for the warning of coming dangers. The next three trumpets apparently voice dangers of the spiritual concern. We discovered the demonic activities upon the earth of the first woe that the fallen angel, the Satan, unleashing the mankind through his associate, the beast, to forbid receiving the seal of God. Thus the beast receives the fifth plague. Rev. 16:10 “ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,”

Interestingly, the beast kingdom does not repent but still blasphemed the God of heaven (Rev. 16:11).

This beast is one of the three unclean spirits. Rev. 16:13 “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the (1) dragon, and out of the mouth of the (2) beast, and out of the mouth of the (3) false prophet.”

Notice that the threefold union gathers the whole world together. Rev. 16:14 “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

If they do this they are actually getting into a trouble for themselves because their doing is religious alliance, another words, ecumenical movement. Their method is “working miracles”. The word “miracles” occurs only in religious realm. The sixth plague is this kind of ecumenical movement itself that the wrath of God release.

In the midst of the sixth plague, Jesus says to His saints, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame” (Rev. 16:15). No saints will joint the three unclean spirits because they are vigilant.

So can we call the ecumenical movement the sixth plague? Are they contemporary? Is this the time to watch and keep our garments? At what boiling point we say the sixth plague has begun?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/01/15 01:28 PM

The sixth plague poured upon the great river Euphrates, why? What does signify?
The Euphrates River was the fourth river in Genesis. “…And the fourth river is Euphrates” (Gen. 2:14).

God has covenanted with Abram, saying, “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:” (Gen. 15:18).

The river Euphrates signifies last boarder of the boundary of the end.

So Rev. 16:12 indicates, “…the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared”, which portrays Jesus’ second coming.

This is the plague that the unclean spirits are doing the Ecumenical Movement just prior to the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Jesus.

The bolts of God’s wrath are soon to fall and Jesus’ intercession is soon to cease. The wicked are gathering the “whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14). And the storm of God’s wrath is gathering too.

Warning message of the sixth trumpet must be sounded in all parts of the world that the four angels are “loose (-ing) the winds”, “which are … in the great river Euphrates” (Rev. 9:14). Then the probation is over when Jesus lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, “It is done.”

The four angels who were holding the four corners of the earth (Rev. 7:1-3) until the sealing of God is done, now the command comes out from the temple, which is the voice of God, (Rev. 16:13) to loose the hold.

The four angels of God do His bidding right away, at a point of time, which portrayed as “an hour and a day, and a month, and a year,” (Rev. 16:15).

The world is on the verge of a stupendous crisis now. The fearful seven last plagues are already begun to fall but still mingled with God’s mercy. We must tell the world, “come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Rev. 18:4).




Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/01/15 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
What has filled the golden vial? It was filled with the prayers of saints (Rev. 5;8).

Why the golden vial poured out as plagues? It is God’s response for the prayers of the saints (Rev. 15:7).

Who ministers for the saints that send their prayers to the throne of God? Jesus Christ mixes His sweet incense to minster (Rev. 8:4).

When is the ministering of Jesus cease in the heavenly sanctuary? It finishes at the time of the ashes of the golden vial cast upon the earth (Rev. 8:5).

Is our prayers ascend to the throne of God return back to the earth as plagues? Yes, God hears our prayers. Rev. 6:10 “…How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

It was very interesting to meditate on the seven last plague judgments which poured out from the golden vials (Rev. 15:7).
(Italics added by me)

Blessings Karen Y,

What does this mean that Jesus has finished His ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary? Is Jesus done with the Judgment of who is saved and not? Is the entire Sanctuary service completed? What are you saying is the finishing of Jesus' ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary?

I would to point you to a statement in Sister White's writings; SpM 2.1. In this statement Sister White says the fit man has got a hold of the scapegoat and this is while the seven last plagues are falling.

What do you make of all this?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/05/15 01:55 AM

Blessings Alchemy,

Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake." The ministration of Jesus will end in the heavenly sanctuary when the ashes cast down to earth.

Christ declare when He cast down the ashes. Rev 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

"When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven." Mar. 263.1
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/05/15 02:00 AM

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

This is the third angel’s warning message that no one should receive the mark of the beast. Whosoever receives the mark of the beast they will be drinking the wine of the wrath of God. They will be punished by fire and brimstone. And their smoke will rise up for ever and ever.

Who will be punished by fire, smoke and brimstone? Those who worship and receive the mark of the beast will be punished. Notice that there is apparent parallel to the sixth trumpet of fire, smoke and brimstone.

The four angels cease to hold the four corners of the earth at an appointed time. Rev. 9:17 says, “And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone”.

These three things of fire, smoke and brimstone are called “plagues” in verse 20 of Chap. 9. Thus whosoever receives the mark of the beast will receive the plagues of fire, smoke and brimstone.

Rev. 9:20 “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:”

However, the verse indicates that there will be men who are not killed by these three plagues of the fire, smoke and brimstone.

If these are the threats to the unrepentant sinners, we must look at the sixth plague to unlock the sixth trumpets. What was the purpose to issue the three things of fire, smoke and brimstone? Are these indicating that there are three identities to punish for their unrighteousness? Why do they deserve these kinds of punishment?

Rev. 16:13 “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of (1) the dragon, and out of the mouth of (2) the beast, and out of the mouth of (3) the false prophet.”

We have already identified that the beast, which ascended up from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8), is one of the three unclean spirits. So the dragon and the false prophets are joining the ecumenical movement with the beast. The identities of the dragon and the false prophets are not difficult to figure out. The prominent eastern religion is Buddies, which they worship dragon. The false prophets are apostate church.

The Buddies are become the habitation of devils by worshipping dragon. The beast has “every foul spirit” by worshipping dead ‘saints’. The false prophets are talking false doctrines, which depicted as “a cage of every unclean and hateful bird”.

Rev. 18:2 “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (the dragon), and the hold of every foul spirit (the beast), and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (the false prophets).”

Conclusively, the sixth trumpet is direct warning to the sixth plague.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/20/15 05:20 AM

The linear way of parallelism between the sixth seal and sixth church also indicate the second coming of Jesus just as the sixth plague and sixth trumpet.

Sixth Seal – “…great earthquake…sun became black…moon became as blood…stars of heaven fell…heaven departed…mountain…moved out…Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne…” Rev. 6:12-17

Sixth Church – “ …Philadelphia…he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;… Behold, I come quickly:…” Rev. 3:7-12


Sixth Plague – “ …upon the great river Euphrates…the way of the kings of the east might be prepared…” Rev. 16:12-16

Sixth Trumpet – “…Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates…” Rev. 9:13-21

Isa. 34:16 “Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”

When we can compare and match verse-by-verse that meant to be connected each other, the meaning becomes obviously clear. Then we should be able to see the prophecy at one glance.

Hab. 2:2 “And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.”

Rev.1-3 Seven Churches => must go through the judgment to be sealed.

Rev. 4-5 Heavenly counsels perform judgment (inserted message)

Rev. 6-7 Seven Seals (sealing the saints)

Rev. 8-11 Seven Trumpets => Satan’s identity must be exposed by the trumpet.

Rev. 12-14 Satan’s identity exposed (inserted message)

Rev. 15-16 Seven Plagues (plagues fall upon wicked)

Rev. 17-18 Collapse of the great city Babylon => Rev. 19 Second coming of Jesus

Rev. 20 Review the judgment of God => Rev. 21-22 New Heaven and New Earth
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/21/15 06:54 PM

The Book of Revelation explains how God will bring His master plan of redemption of mankind to completion. We know that the number seven in the Bible reflects the idea of completeness. So the major events of the book are organized according to patterns of sevens; 1). Seven Churches, 2). Seven Seals, 3). Seven Trumpets, 4). Seven Plagues.

In the Seven Churches, Jesus Christ warns the churches out of love, to encourage us all to repent and overcome our sins and overcome the powers of Satan’s kingdom. (Chap. 1-3)

God's people sealed in the Seven Seals. (Chap. 6-7)

The Seven Trumpets describe the punishment to the wicked. (Chap. 8-11). Man is not left without a warning.

The wicked refuses to repent even God sends a clear message but blasphemes God of heaven. So the Seven last Plagues fall. (Chap. 16).

This is the framework of the book of Revelation that we may come to understand the master plan of redemption of God.

Notice that the message to the seven churches is describing the condition within the church. With the parallel to the seven churches, the Seven Seals describe the condition without. Thus the successive Christian church has emerged in much more meaningful details in the comprehensive overview.

In the same way, the Seven Plagues parallel with the Seven Trumpets. Each plague is talking about destruction of either physical or spiritual realms. If the
Trumpets are the threats to the unrepentant sinners; we must take a look to match with each of the Seven Plagues. Apparently, they do correlate!

1st Plague ; destruction upon the earth => 1st Trumpet ; upon the earth
2nd Plague ; devastation upon the sea => 2nd Trumpet ; upon the sea
3rd Plague ; devastation of rivers and fresh water => 3rd T. ; same
4th Plague ; Sun scorching => 4th T. ; heavenly bodies troubled
5th Plague ; Seat of the beast darkened => 5th T. ; darkened and tortured
6th Plague ; whole world gather together => 6th T.; four angels release for enormous destruction
7th Plague ; It is done => 7th Trumpet; kingdoms of this world become kingdoms of our Lord
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/23/15 12:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

What do you make of all this?
Karen, did you answer his question?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/25/15 04:35 AM

Sorry, I am not so sure about what he/she is asking if I did not make a sense in an attmept to reply on 10-04-15.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/27/15 05:40 AM

Armageddon Battle

Rev. 16:14 “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

The true agenda of ecumenical movement is to destroy God’s people nonetheless they appear to seek a world peace.

Dan. 8:23-25 “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.”

Differences of religion likely bring animosity each other. But the three foul spirits of Buddies, Catholic, and Christianity unite which is a miracle or wonder of wonder.

Abbadon is named for individual destroyers. (Rev. 9:11)
It is called Armageddon when the trifold destroyers are gathered – the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. (Rev. 16:16). And the movement is already very strong.

The sixth plague is Armageddon battle by the great river of Euphrates.
There was Megiddo by the great river of Euphrates. (2 King 23:29, Judges 5:19).
Thus, Megiddo and Armageddon have a correlation prophetically.

Judges 5:19 “The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.”

“No gain of money” is one of the keys to unlock Armageddon battle.

Rev. 13:17-18 “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

These verses portray a fierce economy conflict of war without a border, prophetically, at the time of the end. Money, money, money is the issue of the fight at the global battlefield.

Luke 21:34 “And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.”

Zech. 12:11 “In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.”

Joel 3:2 “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.”

The valley of Megiddo is same place as the valley of Jehoshaphat. Notice what has happened at the valley of Jehoshaphat. God said He would judge the nations. Thus at the time of the end there is judgment of God going on in heaven concurrently when the foul spirits unite themselves upon the earth. God has to judge the nations with Sabbath to save His own. The Sabbath is the eye of the Lord in the judgment.

Zech. 4:10 “For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.”

“The day of small things” refers to Sabbath, which no one should despise. They are the eyes of the Lord that measures up everything in judgment.

The place of Megiddo named as valley of Jehoshaphat after triumphant victory when the children of Ammon and Moab and mount Seir came against Jehoshaphat.

2 Chron. 20:15 “And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's.”

2 Chron. 20:21,22 “And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for his mercy endureth for ever.
And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.”



Another thing happened at the valley of Megiddo, which was a great mourning. Why? Josiah king, who was a very good king in the sight of the Lord, was killed at the battlefield of Megiddo.

2 King 23:25, 29 “And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.
In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.”

Prophetically, at the time of the end God’s people will be threatened and be killed like king Josiah.

The battle of Armageddon is an economic war without border. There are 29 merchandise lists in Rev. 18:12-13, which entire world is involved with. One man is in control. Rev. 13:18 “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” Notice, who has a real control of IBRD (International Bank for Reconstruction and Development) through World Bank? The beast, right?

Armageddon => Religion
Megiddo => Economy
Judgment => Jehoshaphat

Conclusively, Armageddon battle is not only in the future time but already has begun. There is judgment of God going on in the heaven right now. There is fierce economy war globally right now. There is ecumenical movement going forth strong right now. No wonder Jesus said, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame” (Rev. 16:15) at the sixth plague.
Posted By: ProdigalOne

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 10/31/15 05:44 PM

Karen Y said:

"Differences of religion likely bring animosity each other. But the three foul spirits of Buddies, Catholic, and Christianity unite which is a miracle or wonder of wonder."


The first of the three foul spirits is "Buddies"?
Is that a typo?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/01/15 02:12 AM

The three unclean spirits;
The dragon represents paganism,
the beast, Catholicism,
the false prophet, apostate Protestantism.

The paganism primarily consists of Buddhists of orient. They worship dragons. In the context of the Rev. 16:13, the three unclean spirits are religious agencies that uniting the entire world under the banner of Satan. The dragon of the three unclean spirits is not representing Satan here. But in essence, the paganism, which is the Buddhists of orient.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/03/15 07:54 PM

The dragon had given to the beast “his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

Does paganism give Catholicism power seat and great authority?

Why doesn't the dragon represent spiritualism?
When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}


"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


The unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast, and false prophet.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/07/15 11:01 PM

"The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat and great authority".
Does paganism give Catholicism power seat and great authority?"

Kland, I think that you have answered your own question. The dragon in the Chap. 16 could not be the Satan, the Devil, because he is not “the one of the spirits of devils”. The book of Revelation is not decoding words for interpretation. So we must read within the context. For example, the word ‘crown’ is mentioned 11 times in the book of Revelation. Jesus has crown, 24 elders has crown, beast has crown so on.

The dragon of the three unclean spirits is "the one of the spirits of devils"(Rev. 16:14). In retrospect why would God punish only the Dragon when the others of the unclean spirits also gathered the entire world for the battle of Armageddon?

Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"
Rev. 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

We are told that the dragon of the Chap. 16 is the one of the spirits of devils. The threefold union of the unclean spirits gathers the whole world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev. 16:16 says, they “gathered them together into” a situation of Armageddon.

Inevitably they are fallen by their own "working miracles" to unite the whole world. Rev. 18:2 “… Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (paganism), and the hold of every foul spirits (Catholicism) and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (apostate Protestantism).”

What is the purpose that they must unite? Their superficial agenda is for the world peace but that's only a cover-up. Their true agenda is to destroy God's people.

Dan. 8:25 " And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

So God announced their punishment in the sixth trumpet to the unclean spirits of devil. Rev. 9:17 “And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.”
Rev. 9:18 “By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. “
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/15 12:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The dragon of the three unclean spirits is "the one of the spirits of devils"(Rev. 16:14). In retrospect why would God punish only the Dragon when the others of the unclean spirits also gathered the entire world for the battle of Armageddon?

Why? Because satan is the persecutor of God's people.

I'm not sure you are understanding what I mean by

The unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast, and false prophet.

If something comes out of the mouth of the dragon, it cannot be the dragon.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/11/15 12:09 AM

Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/12/15 01:45 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?


Are we in the same page regarding the dragon of the chapter 16? We must read within the context first.

We are told that the dragon of the three unclean spirits has issues with his mouth the same way as the other two unclean spirits. The three unclean spirits "talk" or "speak" directly to people to deceive by their mouth. They "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (Rev. 16:14)" to persuade them to their false doctrines by "working miracles".

Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

This dragon in chap. 16:13 is paganism, which is primarily the Buddhist of the orient. What a miracle that they unite with influence of the beast and the false prophet for the battle of Armageddon. Verse 14 says, "they are the spirits of devils" of the real Dragon, which is the Satan, the Devil.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/16/15 05:51 AM

I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

Please go to search engine and type ‘seven trumpets’.
I have copied it and pasted some below;

RE: 7 Trumpets of Revelation
Dear Brother Fagal, I am a pastor in the Greater NY Conference. I am doing an in depth study of the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. …
… speaking about the sixth trumpet she says, "at the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. This event exactly fulfilled the prediction" (GC 335). [Uriah Smith says it too.] Mrs. White was convinced that August 11, 1840 brought "an exact fulfillment" to the sixth trumpet. Nevertheless, the clear facts of history and Scripture do not support this claim:

1. According to history, the Turkish empire did not fall on August 11, 1840 as the Millerites claimed. In fact, from 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman empire were reduced by a series of defeats. The war waged against the Sultan of Turkey in 1840 ended in 1841 without significant change. Today, the August 11, 1840 date set by the Millerites is not regarded by historians as an important date in Turkish history. In World War I, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

2. The August 11, 1840 date is reached through a faulty King James translation of Scripture that says: "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men" Rev 9:15. Dr. Josiah Litch, the man that first concluded that the sixth trumpet must occur on the August 11, 1840 date, applied the day/year principle to this verse and derived 391 years and 15 days out of the hour, day, month and year mentioned. However, the King James translation of this verse is incorrect! The translation should read: "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind." Greek scholars around the world widely agree that the syntax of Revelation 9:15 points to a specific point in time and is therefore punctiliar, and not the sum of chronological units of time.

3. Dr. Litch failed to adjust his 391 year, 15 day prophecy with the change of the calendar in October, 1582, when ten days were dropped from the calendar to correct for errors in the Julian calendar. Thus the August 11, 1840 date should be August 21 1840. And nothing of historical consequence occurred on that date. CONCLUSION: Her original statement was time sensitive. E.G. White was not infallible, only God is. She was given no vision about the trumpets. Therefore she was accepting the stated interpretation given in her day considering that the Millerites believed that Christ was coming in 1844, the Trumpets had to be fulfilled in the past rather than something to look for in the future because the Millerites believed Christ was coming in 1844. Uriah Smith later fleshed out this interpretation after the disappointment. This interpretation has persisted to the present day. My problem is that I don't find this interpretation plausible. I see the Trumpets as having an end time fulfillment because typically the feast was a 7th month phenomenom as the Day of Atonement. Adventist have always connected the investigative judgment and the work of our High Priest from 1844 with Day of Atonement, thus having an end time fulfillment. Why not the Trumpets seeing that they announce to world that our High Priest is going to be leaving the sanctuary and probation will close just as it was in the typical service and economy. It is only logical to see these events tied together as God originally intended. Therefore I believe that the 7 Trumpets are still future perhaps on the verge of sounding. What do you think? Thank you for any input. God Bless, Pastor _____

Dear William,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I am not convinced that Rev. chapter 8 & 9 refer to the fall of Ottoman Empire. How did Josiah Litch can come to the conclusion that the 7 trumpets refer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Can you read through these chapters ? Can you provide me Josiah's papers on this subject ?
The first angel sounded chap.8 verse 7 - the one third of trees burnt up and all green grass burnt up. This is the impact due to the sounding of the first trumpet. The words are plain English. How can Josiah infer from this pain english that it refer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It was just coincident that he predicted correctly the fall of Ottoman Empire but it should not refer to the trumpets. If you were read through chapters 8 and 9. The verses do not refer to history. It predict the coming plagues:

1. First trumpet - 1/3 trees & grass burnt
2. Second trumpet - 1/3 sea became blood
3. Third trumpet - 1/3 water became poisoned, many men died
4. Fourth trumpet - 1/3 moon,sun, stars - darkened
5. Fifth trumpet - Men who do not have the seal of God - tormented - in those days men seek death and shall not find it ( it refer to men - real people , not about the Turks or Ottoman Empire) this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
6. Sixth Trumpet - 1/3 of men killed by the 3 plagues - these also are plain english, not about history or the Turks or Ottoman Empire.
7. Seventh Trumpet -Chap 11: 15 - Close of probation.

These 7 trumpets are all - PLAGUES !!!!! They are very similar to all the 7 last plagues which are universally believed by all Adventist.
Please through many times the book of Revelation Chapters 8,9 and you may understand what I am trying to say.
Mrs White had never made statement about the 7 trumpets prophecy. So it makes me suspicious that just because of Josiah prediction about the Turks was correction does not mean that the Rev chapter 8 & 9 are actually prophecing about the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The words in Rev chap 8 & 9 do not allow such gross misinterpretation by Josiah Litch.
I, also, do not agree with Uriah Smith and SDA Bible Commentary on their views on the 7 trumpets. How can they so easily come to such conclusion that the trumpets refer to History.
Please read : Rev. 9 : 5, 6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them. This cannot be about history. When was it recorded during the fall of the Ottoman Empire that people in those days would seek death and desire to die ?
Rev 8: 13 - Woe to the inhabitants of the world - meaning in the very near future God people will warn the world of the trumpet plagues. When did the Turks or whoever had proclaim to the inhabitants of the world ?
Rev 9 : 20 , 21- And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils and idols of gold and silver and brass and stone and wood which neither can see nor hear nor walk.
These words are plain english - no doubt - how can we twist it and say that it is history- all those inaccurate statements by Josiah, Uriah or the Bible Commentary.
I may not be a Theologian, and I don't have too. When we interprete, we have to let the Bible speaks for itself and in plain english.
I am absolutely certain that these 7 trumpets plagues are coming. Its purpose to warn and awaken the world to accept the Gospel and to worship the true God or be judged and suffer the 7 trumpets plagues.
I want to thank you for reading my mail. Maybe you may share my thoughts with your friends. But please read through Rev 8 & 9 many times as I have read through 100 of times and come to the conclusion that they are plagues -for sure.
Awaiting your input, thanks
Best Regards
Brother in Christ

I have also read up on the "Z" file of the White Estate from the link, which uploaded now on the White Estate Digital Resource Center. http://www.centerforadventistresearch.org
I found an interesting documents on "A Desire to Correct Denominational Books". Obviously there were some attempts, especially in the relation of Revelation 9 to Josiah Litch's prediction.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/23/15 12:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

The link doesn't work.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/23/15 03:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

The link doesn't work.


please try this;

www.drc.whiteestate.org
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/23/15 03:47 AM

Please try to link this first;

http://www.centerforadventistresearch.org

then click this;

White Estate Digital Resource Center
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/23/15 05:02 AM

Seven Trumpets are all about coming Seven Plagues!!

The four angels in Chap. 7 were holding the four corners of the earth to prevent 'hurting' the earth, the sea, or trees while the sealing of God are going on.

At the time of the completion of the sealing, the four angels are commanded to loose their hold (Rev. 9:14).

When the four angels are loose their hold, the 'hurting' of the earth, the sea and trees would be evident.

Notice the first trumpet announcing ‘the coming hurt’ of the trees and grass that are burnt up. The trees and the green grass depict mankind on earth, which mean 1/3 of the mankind would be ‘hurt’. We have not seen two billions of mankind have been hurt yet. Have we? Thus the first trumpet is the future event of the first plague.

Similarly the second trumpet turned one third of the sea to blood. Is this also deadly news of announcement on the coming plague? This would be happening unavoidably that is like ‘great mountain burning with fire’ which was casted into the sea. That is why the second plague describes like “sea became as the blood of a dead man”.

The third trumpet talks about 1/3 of water became poisoned and many men died from it. Indeed, the third plague describes the water turned to blood.

The fourth trumpet has announced that the heavenly bodies have turned partially into darkness. This means that the sun, the moon, and the stars are showing the signs of the time. The weathers are the indicators that the celestial bodies are showing weird signs. Thus the sun scorching men with fire on the fourth plague fits like puzzle pieces with the fourth trumpet.

Men who have the seal of God would not be tormented and not do desire to die while the fifth trumpet is sounding. Only those who do not have the seal of God shall desire to die but shall not find it. Who is causing men not to receive the seal of God? The instigator is revealed or exposed in the Rev. 13 and even more enlarged their identity in Rev. 17-18. I would say that this beast deserves plague, don’t you? So God said that He would pour out His wrath on the seat of the beast.

At the sixth trumpet, the four angels are loosed at the command of God from the temple, instantaneously or at the point of the time. We are told that at the sixth trumpet sound that the 1/3 of inhabiters of the earth is killed by the three plagues. Have we seen this happened yet? If not, this is still the future event, which is the sixth plague. The three unclean spirits would receive these plagues.

The seventh trumpet is announcing the coming kingdom of Christ. So the seventh plague said, ‘It is done.” No more solemn warnings will be heard after this. The Probation closed.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 11/24/15 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?


Are we in the same page regarding the dragon of the chapter 16? We must read within the context first.

We are told that the dragon of the three unclean spirits has issues with his mouth the same way as the other two unclean spirits. The three unclean spirits "talk" or "speak" directly to people to deceive by their mouth. They "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (Rev. 16:14)" to persuade them to their false doctrines by "working miracles".

Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

This dragon in chap. 16:13 is paganism, which is primarily the Buddhist of the orient. What a miracle that they unite with influence of the beast and the false prophet for the battle of Armageddon. Verse 14 says, "they are the spirits of devils" of the real Dragon, which is the Satan, the Devil.

So are you saying there are two dragons, one dragon comes out of the mouth of the other dragon?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/01/15 07:33 AM

Dear Kland,

'Somebody' is speaking like a dragon for sure. We are told that the second beast in the Rev. Chap. 13, "he spake as a dragon" (verse 11).

"Out of the mouth of" 1) dragon, 2) beast, and 3) false prophet mean that they use their mouth to deceive the whole world and they also speak as a dragon for they are the spirits of devils. Thus we should not interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as the Satan or the Devil. Rather, it represent pagan religions, primarily the orient of Buddhists, which worship dragon of the evil spirits.

These three identity is the physical entities of the spirits of the devils. They are involved actively to unite the whole world in the battle of Armageddon. They have "a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon" (Rev. 9:11). This angel is the Dragon, "the angel of the bottomless pit".
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/01/15 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y



These three identity is the physical entities of the spirits of the devils. They are involved actively to unite the whole world in the battle of Armageddon. They have "a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon" (Rev. 9:11). This angel is the Dragon, "the angel of the bottomless pit".


"The angel of the bottomless pit" is the great Dragon, the Satan.

Quote:
Rev. 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


The dragon of the Rev. 16:13 represent paganism.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/01/15 03:39 PM

A shadow of the sixth plague is already contemporary. Ecumenical movement itself is the plague and the world already has joined the movement.

Quote:
Rev. 16:13,14 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, WHICH GO FORTH UNTO THE KINGS OF THE EARTH AND OF THE WHOLE WORLD, TO GATHER THEM to the battle of that great day of God Almighty". (emphasis added by this writer)


Quote:
"We are living in the closing scenes of this earth's history. Prophecy is fast fulfilling. The hours of probation are fast passing. We have no time - not a moment - to lose. Let us not be found sleeping on guard. Let no one say in his heart or by his works: "My lord delayeth his coming." Let the message of Christ's soon return sound forth in earnest words of warning. Let us persuade men and women everywhere to repent and flee from the wrath to come..." Maranatha pg. 311.2


The four angels holding the four corners of the earth will be loosed at a command of God from the throne at a point of time, then the probation will be over.

Quote:
Rev. 9:13 "...I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God."

This is the voice of God that coming out from the temple where the four horns exist, which depict mercy of God. At the command of God, the four angels will let go of the hold. Then there would be no more mercy of God.

Quote:
Rev. 9:15 "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."


When the earth is depopulated by one third in the sixth trumpet, this has to be the seven last plagues. Thus verse 20 says, "...the rest of the men which were not killed by THESE PLAGUES..." (emphasis added by this writer)

So the seven trumpets clearly indicate that those are the warnings of the coming seven last plagues.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/03/15 04:59 PM


The Seven Trumpets are written judgment that foretells the coming seven last plagues. God's people would not want to wait until Jesus cast the ashes of the golden censor upon the earth, which means the close of the probation (Rev. 8:2-4). The image of the Seven Trumpet appears as though the events would happen after Jesus finishes the intercessory work in the heavenly sanctuary but the plan of God is that His people would discern the written judgment of the seven trumpets and participate to fore-warn the world.

Quote:
Sound an alarm throughout the length and breadth of the earth. Tell the people that the day of the Lord is near and hasteth greatly. Let none be left unwarned. - Mar 29.4
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/10/15 06:50 AM

A single angel has such a power to destroy as the OT has told us. All the first-born Egyptians were destroyed by one angel and likewise when David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused the destruction.

When the command comes out from the temple in heaven to loose the four angels that are bound, the holy angels of 200 millions will move at His command at a point of the time to slay 1/3 of mankind, which is presently more than 2 billions of population of the earth.

Quote:
"As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose". GC 614.1


The holy angels will stop the hold and the things of the earth "will be let loose". Verse 19 says that "For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt".
This destroying power is exercised by evil angels on the earth when the four corners of the earth are not on hold in check by the holy angels.

Quote:
"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." GC 614.2


The sixth trumpet reveals about the "Hurt" or "Harm" of mankind, which denoted by trees and green grass in Rev. 7:3 and Rev. 9:4. This means that the probation will be closed imminently and the destroying angels will exercise their power to destroy 1/3 of mankind.

This kind of destruction has not happened "upon the inhabiters of the earth" (Rev. 8:13) yet, therefore the sixth trumpet is portraying one of the coming seven last plagues. Apparently "the rest of men which were not killed by these PLAGUES yet repented not of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20).
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/11/15 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Dear Kland,

'Somebody' is speaking like a dragon for sure. We are told that the second beast in the Rev. Chap. 13, "he spake as a dragon" (verse 11).

"Out of the mouth of" 1) dragon, 2) beast, and 3) false prophet mean that they use their mouth to deceive the whole world and they also speak as a dragon for they are the spirits of devils. Thus we should not interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as the Satan or the Devil. Rather, it represent pagan religions, primarily the orient of Buddhists, which worship dragon of the evil spirits.

These three identity is the physical entities of the spirits of the devils. They are involved actively to unite the whole world in the battle of Armageddon. They have "a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon" (Rev. 9:11). This angel is the Dragon, "the angel of the bottomless pit".
"This angel is the Dragon, "the angel of the bottomless pit"" from which the three come out of its mouth.

I'm trying to say, a box cannot contain itself.

I don't feel you really addressed my question. But I cannot figure out how to ask it any differently. I guess it's not really going to make any difference to you, though.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/17/15 07:15 PM

I am trying to say that the dragon of the three unclean spirits is different than the dragon of "the angel of the bottomless pit". We have to read in context first.

How does the dragon of the spirit of the evil (verse 13) "working miracle" directly to the inhabiters of the earth as the beast and the false prophet if he is the Devil and Satan himself?

Quote:
Rev. 20:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that WROUGHT MIRACLES before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. ..." emphasis added by me


The threefold union of the evil spirits are working together to gather the "whole world" to make spiritual Babylon to enforce the mark of the beast. Thus my understanding of the dragon in Chap. 16:13 is pagan religion, mostly Buddhist of orient.

The dragon of "the angel of the bottomless pit", which is the Devil and Satan, gave the dragon (pagan religion), the beast (Catholic) and the false prophet (protestant) a mouth to speak to deceived the whole world.

God's prophets speak His Word, but the three evil spirits speak the words of Satan to deceive the world. Satan tries to counterfeit God (Isa. 14) in every way he can.

Satan gave his "power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13:2) to his agents. He works through his alliances and associates of the evil to establish the kingdom of the Babylon. At the time of their collapse, they will be "divided into three parts; and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God..." (Rev. 16:19).

The Babylon is fallen in the work of these three unclean spirits; (Rev. 18:2)

1).the paganism - "the habitation of devils (they have all kinds of evil spirits),
2). the beast - "the hold of every foul spirit" (Catholic worship dead people or saints),
3). the false prophets - "a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (their false teachings are like hateful birds making noises).

Thus the three unclean spirits get their powers from Satan to establish the global kingdom of Babylon and to enforce the mark of the beast.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/18/15 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I am trying to say that the dragon of the three unclean spirits is different than the dragon of "the angel of the bottomless pit". We have to read in context first.

How does the dragon of the spirit of the evil (verse 13) "working miracle" directly to the inhabiters of the earth as the beast and the false prophet if he is the Devil and Satan himself?
But Karen, it does not say "the dragon of the three unclean spirits". The three unclean spirits come out of three things: come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

The three spirits come out of mouths of three things. 3 spirits out of 3. Only one of the three with a mouth is the dragon. The spirit which comes out of his mouth is not a dragon, but the spirit out of his mouth. There are 2 other spirits out of two other mouths which are not the mouth of the dragon.

Why can it not be said that paganism comes out of the mouth of satan? Is there any reason to object to that?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/23/15 01:56 AM

Kland, It is clear that your understanding and my understanding are different. I like to read it in context about the dragon of the Chap. 16. If you insist otherwise, that is your approach to interpret, which I would not insist for you to look at it only in my view. Whomever may have all their freedom.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 12/25/15 08:13 PM

I'm questioning the logic of your view of the sentence. Are you ok with saying the dragon comes out of the mouth of the dragon?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/04/16 05:27 AM

The significance of that that ‘come out of the mouth’ indicates deceptive power with their words of mouth.
These three entities perform 1). Working miracles, 2) go to the kings of the earth, and 3) gather them (the whole world). We are told that these three religious entities unite the whole world into a great deception.
Thus our Lord tells us to “watch and keep” our garments, “lest he walk naked, and they see his shame” (Rev. 16:15). So our question is who are these three religious identities.
We are told that the beast received a power, seat and authority from the dragon, the Satan (Rev. 13:2) to deceive the world.
In the same way, the other of two unclean spirits would be inspired to do the same kind of work. The false prophets who exercised all the power of the beast will deceived the world – them that dwell on the earth (Rev. 13:14)- by working miracles “which he had power to do in the sight of the beast”. The triangular relationship of the three unclean spirits proves things without words of detail about the third unclean spirit in the way of his doing things the same way of the others to deceive the world.

Thus they are called “the spirits of devils”, which are “the three unclean spirits” of the Buddhist of orient (dragon), the Catholic (beast), and the apostate protestants (false prophets).

If the dragon of the chapter 16 were referring to the Satan, how would you relate to the other unclean spirits? Why would he give his power, his seat, and great authority to the beast to speak great things and blasphemies in their mouth (Rev. 13:5)? What does he speak with his own mouth then to deceive people? Does he really go to the kings of the earth directly? What’s his approach that is differing from the other unclean spirits to gather world?

Indeed, it is a miracle that the three religious entities unite each other into one mind to destroy God people.
They had worked miracles to establish a spiritual Babylon. The process of this gathering is for “the battle of that great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14). We already eye witnesses the ecumenical movement, which is the process of the gathering that is for “the battle of that great day of God Almighty”. The place “he gathered them together into … Armageddon” (Rev. 16:16). If the Armageddon is the place of the battle, then we can search out what has happened in the Megiddo of Old Testament.

I have already shared in this thread what is the significance of Megiddo of OT.

In my summary, the three unclean spirits are working actively to deceive the whole world with issues of their mouth. Nevertheless, we are not left unwarned about the workings of the spirits of devils. The sixth trumpet blast its sound, saying, “out of their mouths issued 1) fire and 2) smoke and 3) brimstone” (Rev. 9:18) to kill them by these plagues because what the three unclean spirits are doing deserve sixth plague (Rev. 16:13-14)-the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/05/16 05:34 PM

Chap. 182 - The Threefold Union of Religion

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13, 14. {Mar 190.1}

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}



Chap. 183 - Satan and the Threefold Union

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast. Revelation 13:4. {Mar 191.1}

"He had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Though professing to be followers of the Lamb of God, men become imbued with the spirit of the dragon. They profess to be meek and humble but they speak and legislate with the spirit of Satan, showing by their actions that they are the opposite of what they profess to be. This lamb-like power unites with the dragon in making war upon those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists, acting in consort with them as the god of this world, dictating to men as if they were the subjects of his kingdom, to be handled and governed and controlled as he pleases. If men will not agree to trample under foot the commandments of God, the spirit of the dragon is revealed. They are imprisoned, brought before councils, and fined. "He causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." "He had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Thus Satan usurps the prerogatives of Jehovah. The man of sin sits in the seat of God, proclaiming himself to be God, and acting above God. {Mar 191.2}


Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}


I would say satan works through spiritualism / witchcraft with the papacy and protestantism to enforce sunday sacredness. He speaks to the kings of the earth through "dead" people.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/09/16 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Chap. 182 - The Threefold Union of Religion

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13, 14. {Mar 190.1}

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}



Chap. 183 - Satan and the Threefold Union

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast. Revelation 13:4. {Mar 191.1}

"He had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Though professing to be followers of the Lamb of God, men become imbued with the spirit of the dragon. They profess to be meek and humble but they speak and legislate with the spirit of Satan, showing by their actions that they are the opposite of what they profess to be. This lamb-like power unites with the dragon in making war upon those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists, acting in consort with them as the god of this world, dictating to men as if they were the subjects of his kingdom, to be handled and governed and controlled as he pleases. If men will not agree to trample under foot the commandments of God, the spirit of the dragon is revealed. They are imprisoned, brought before councils, and fined. "He causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." "He had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Thus Satan usurps the prerogatives of Jehovah. The man of sin sits in the seat of God, proclaiming himself to be God, and acting above God. {Mar 191.2}


Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}


I would say satan works through spiritualism / witchcraft with the papacy and protestantism to enforce sunday sacredness. He speaks to the kings of the earth through "dead" people.


I need to test this more. This does not ring true to me. I mean the compilation Maranatha.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/09/16 06:19 PM

The more I read Testimonies Volume 5, I can't accept this connection made that the sixth plague of Revelation 16 applies to that statement at Mar 190.2.

That is very misleading. I do not accept what the book Maranatha implies in chapter 182.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/11/16 07:39 PM

What about {GC 588.1} ?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/12/16 07:09 AM

The threefold union of religion speaks to the hearts and minds of people to deceive with their mouths just like the Word of God speaks by the sword of the Spirit, which is from the mouth of God.
We are to identify the three religious groups of the worldwide end-time coalition. The prophecy tells us that they join together for the battle of “that great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14). The threefold religion seems to counterfeit the three angels’ messages. They are going to perform miracles to set up the image of the Chap. 13 and enforce the entire world to receive the mark of the beast.

The Protestantism, which is the false prophets, will “stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power,”-uniting with the beast and she will “reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism” (Mar 190.2). Spiritualism is “a belief that spirits of the dead have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living”-Wikipedia dictionary. So the spiritualism is based on the false doctrine of the Bible, which is the doctrine of devil.


The beast also performs miracles to deceive many. The Pope has urged Sunday sacredness (1989) and more projected when he visited US on Sept. 2015. The Protestants and the Papist unite their hands with the Spiritualism, which the doctrine comes from the spirit of devils.

The False prophets and the beast both gather the whole world together, in the spirit of the Dragon, the Satan. The Paganism also joins the beast and the false prophets in their spiritualism at the threefold union of religion.
“Satan unites with Protestants and Papists” (Mar 191.2) does not convey meaning that Satan is another religion that unites with the other religions of the unclean spirits. Notice that the Satan is instigator of all and inspires the each unclean spirit to unite for the battle of God Almighty.

“Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome” (GC 588.1). This tells me that the Satan inspires all three unclean spirits even though the pagan religion is not mentioned here. It is left for seekers to observe the meaning and gain an insight how the three different religions (Pagan, Catholic, Apostate Protestant) unite in ecumenical movement to kill God’s remnant people.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/12/16 10:21 PM

And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists,
{Mar 191.2}
I don't really know about your "religion" part, but say it is. If Protestants and Papists are considered religion, and are part of the 3 frogs, why did she leave out the third part? Unless satan is the third part. For some reason, she quoted Rev 16:13,14 right beforehand....

Things must fit together. Otherwise, well, they don't fit.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/13/16 06:25 AM

Satan cannot be another religion himself that stretches his hand to grasp another religion of the unclean spirits. The threefold union of religion has received the "spirits of devils" from the Satan.
Rev.13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast."
If the dragon gave power to the beast, he will do the same thing with the false prophets and the pagan religion. No surprise that the false prophets "spake like as a dragon"(Rev. 13:11) because they were inspired by the spirit of the Satan. The patterns of the works of the Satan are clearly demonstrated in the book of the prophecy of Revelation. The significance of the three religious forces that come out of the mouth of the dragon(pagan religion), the beast(papacy) and the false prophet(apostate Protestantism) are gathering the world to destruction.

“Papists, Protestants, and worldling (pagan) will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium”. Mar 190.4

I believe that the threefold union of religion is clearly written in the spirit of prophecy.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/13/16 07:04 AM

The first plague of “foul and loathsome” sores afflicts only those who worship the Antichrist and who have accepted the mark of the Beast. God’s people would be perfectly obedient that they would know how to escape the plague. They would be obedient in the counsel of diet that was given in Gen. 1:29. The promise of God in Exodus 15:26 would be guaranteed till the end of the time. The counsel of the Apostles was also given in Acts 15:29 to “abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled”.

God knows from the beginning to the end that this counsel of diet was so necessary for the end-time generation to survive the plague. Thus Jesus admonishes His church to return to the “first love” in the Ephesus church to be obedient in the counsel of the diet. His church must become conquerors just as Jesus conquered as the white horse of the first seal.

The plague of the first bowl judgment is so catastrophic that the third of the world’s population will be wiped out, which the first trumpet blast its sound of warning. The trees and all green grass, which signify men on the earth, will be hurt. Has such pestilence happened in our human history? If not, the first trumpet sound certainly portrays “the wind … blow on the earth” (Rev. 7:1) in the “hurt” by loosing the hold of the four angels, which means Jesus’ ministry in the heavenly sanctuary will cease very soon. Then the end of the probation for the mankind will finally arrive.

Notice that all the Seven trumpets of the judgment announce about “hurting the earth, the sea, ..tree” (Rev. 7:1) and “woe, woe, woe” (Rev. 8:13). I believe that the coming of the Seven last plagues are remarkably warned by the Seven Trumpet sound.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/21/16 05:59 AM

God will not do anything unless He tells His servants the prophets.
Amos 3: 7 “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

The second plague is so deadly and dangerous to the inhabitants of the earth. God must warn which is to come.

Rev. 16:3 “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.”

The ocean is where the most oxygen produces and the humanity is very depended on the life of the sea. If the sea creatures die, including the vegetation of the sea, the life of humanity certainly will be devastated. We are already observing the threats of these plagues of the ocean. Indeed the shadow of such plagues is over casted currently upon the earth and the sea.

The “hurt” of the earth and the sea is about to come! (Rev. 7:1) The four angels are about to loose their hold! (Rev. 9:14-15) The probation of the mankind is about to close imminently! (Rev. 8:5) “Blow the trumpet, hear ye”! (Isa. 18:3)

The sound of the second trumpet is transparent for the warning of the second plague.
Rev. 8:8 “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;”

The “great mountain burning with fire” symbolically indicates that there is forces unknown that it can prevent the coming devastation of the sea.

Rev. 8:9 “And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”

People use the vessels of ship that bring the creatures of the sea for food. If the life of the sea is deadly for food, symbolically speaking that the “third part of the ships were destroyed”. Thus the second trumpet announces the coming plague of “it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.” (Rev. 16:3)

When the four angels of holding the winds of the earth would let go, the “hurt” will occur upon the earth, the sea, and the trees. (Rev. 7:1-3) When the sealing of the living God is completed, the “hurt” will come suddenly. Our time is very short. Please read this prophecy book of Revelation, then you would see the things, which “must shortly come to pass” (Rev. 1:1, 22:6).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/26/16 02:50 PM

“These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals.” – The Great Controversy, 629

In the warning of the second trumpet, the one third denotes a partial impact. Otherwise, whole inhabitants would be cut off. An apparent correlation to the second plague obviously voiced in the second trumpet as “the sea became blood” (Rev. 8:8).

Below webpage link is one of the evidence of the "great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;" (Rev. 8:8).
http://www.naturalnews.com/052685_Pacific_sealife_radiation_cancer_tumors.html
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/29/16 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists,
{Mar 191.2}
I don't really know about your "religion" part, but say it is. If Protestants and Papists are considered religion, and are part of the 3 frogs, why did she leave out the third part? Unless satan is the third part. For some reason, she quoted Rev 16:13,14 right beforehand....

Things must fit together. Otherwise, well, they don't fit.
Karen, could you suggest a reason that Ellen White quoted Rev 16:13,14 right before saying,
And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists, {Mar 191.2} and what she may mean by And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists, in that context?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 01/31/16 07:41 AM

Satan unites with all three unclean spirits. That is why the threefold union is called the spirit of devils (Rev. 16:14). The predominant of the three unclean spirits are the Papists and the Protestants, which they influence people with Sunday observance and the immortality in "the spirit of the dragon"(mar 191.2).
The three unclean spirits are uniting in the spirit of the dragon, the Satan because they are fearful of the people who bear the seal of God.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/01/16 08:03 PM

So you think she just failed to include the third unclean spirit?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/02/16 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Chap. 182 - The Threefold Union of Religion

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13, 14. {Mar 190.1}

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}

So you think she just failed to include the third unclean spirit?

out of the mouth of the dragon -- spiritualism
out of the mouth of the beast -- the Roman power
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- (apostate) Protestantism

Spiritualism is not the same as Satan,
Just as Christianity is not the same as Christ.

They are two opposite worship systems.

When the two main "Christian" systems (papal & Protestant) incorporate spiritualism in their worship -- they are no longer really Christian even though they maintain the name.
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/03/16 02:11 PM

Quote:
Chap. 182 - The Threefold Union of Religion

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13, 14. {Mar 190.1}


Originally Posted By: dedication


out of the mouth of the dragon -- spiritualism
out of the mouth of the beast -- the Roman power
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- (apostate) Protestantism


IMHO--A more up to date view:

out of the mouth of the dragon -- Satan posing as Pope John-Paul II
out of the mouth of the beast -- Pope Francis I
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- Pope Benedict Emeritus

Quote:

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}


President Bush II reached his hand across the gulf to clasp hands with the Roman power Pope John-Paul II in 2004 when GW presented him a gold medal.

President Bush II reached his hand across the gulf to clasp hands with Spiritualism in 2008 when GW presented the Dalai Lama the same gold medal.

Quote:
The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.--The Great Controversy, p. 588.


This is virtually the same quote as the previous one, but spiritualism and the roman power have been reversed.

After GW reached his hand across the gulf to the Dalai Lama, he again stretched his hand across the gulf to the roman power, Pope Benedict XVI, who was a guest at the White House on April 15.

The three unclean spirits: Satan as John-Paul II, Pope Francis I, & Pope Benedict are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings: 1) of the earth (Obama) and 2) of the whole world (the other world leaders), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty (Armageddon).

I won't quibble over it, when it happens you'll know it is true. And it will happen soon enough (ISIS is drying up the Euphrates River to prepare the way for Christ's return as I write this post).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/06/16 05:55 AM

The true purpose when the three unclean spirits unit their powers to deceive the world is to get rid of the saints of God. We are told that the Pilate and Herod made friends over the trial of the Saviour. The world’s Redeemer was killed by their unity.
Quote:
Luke 23:12 “And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.”

The Satan is instigator of all these evil powers. There also was unity when the two witnesses were killed which denotes the Word of God. Truth torments the wicked very much that they were rejoicing when they thought they got rid of the Bible (Rev. 11: 10).
Quote:
Rev. 11:10 “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”


Thus this is the pattern that the purpose of the unity of the three unclean spirits is to destroy God's people in their agenda of Ecumenical movement.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/08/16 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
out of the mouth of the dragon -- spiritualism
out of the mouth of the beast -- the Roman power
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- (apostate) Protestantism

Spiritualism is not the same as Satan,
Just as Christianity is not the same as Christ.

They are two opposite worship systems.

When the two main "Christian" systems (papal & Protestant) incorporate spiritualism in their worship -- they are no longer really Christian even though they maintain the name.
Thank you. That sounds clear enough to me. Not Buddhists, not Muslims, not Islam, but spiritualism. Though one could argue all of those are spiritualism. But it's more inclusive than such specific an narrow.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/08/16 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
IMHO--A more up to date view:

out of the mouth of the dragon -- Satan posing as Pope John-Paul II
out of the mouth of the beast -- Pope Francis I
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- Pope Benedict Emeritus

But this seems nothing but confusion. Do you disagree with Ellen White?
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 03:59 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
IMHO--A more up to date view:

out of the mouth of the dragon -- Satan posing as Pope John-Paul II
out of the mouth of the beast -- Pope Francis I
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- Pope Benedict Emeritus

But this seems nothing but confusion. Do you disagree with Ellen White?


Does Ellen White say what you think she says?

I'd like to see where you find that she is supposed to disagree with what I shared.

I await your reply from the pen of EGW.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
I await your reply from the pen of EGW.


Here's one that I never noticed before today. E. G. White identifies "kings and rulers" who war against the saint at the end as the dragon:
Quote:
Kings and rulers and governors have placed upon themselves the brand of antichrist, and are represented as the dragon who goes to make war with the saints--with those who keep the commandments of God and who have the faith of Jesus. TM 39.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 09:34 PM

This ties in nicely with this passage:
Quote:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,[the dragon] gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 09:44 PM

So if we identify the Beast as all of the Reformers did, the Papacy; the dragon as Ellen White does above, then by elimination, the false prophet is either apostate Protestantism or Spiritualism. Since fallen Protestantism ultimately comes under the complete control of Spiritualism the two become one - fallen Protestantism/Spiritualism.

So the identities are, imo:

Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 10:02 PM

His Child: You may be thinking of this quote:
Quote:
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}

The reference above to the three fold union doesn't directly tie the three frogs that issue from the mouths of the beast, dragon and false prophet to those entities I've listed but the implied connection is fairly strong. It's a blessing to me that this came up just now because in the back of my mind I've been wanting to nail down the identity of these three for a few weeks or more but haven't taken the time to study it. To have that first quote dropped in my lap today by the Lord was an unexpected gift - like a nugget thrown my way without any effort on my part.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/13/16 10:18 PM

Karen and all, Heidi Heiks recently released his study on the fifth trumpet. What follows are a few of his introductory comments. Notice the quote from Ellen White placing the woes, all three of them, in the future in the context of the final warning messages. Besides David Gates, Heiks is the only main-line author or minister that I'm aware of who has seen the light on this. Heiks states:


The fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets of Revelation 9 and 11, or the three woes of Revelation 8: 13., are both units, both a continuation and an expansion of three successive events that bring the great controversy to its close. The fifth trumpet reveals what initiates the woes soon to befall "the inhabiters of the earth." Rev. 8: 13.
Quote:
Those who have been self-indulgent and ready to yield to pride and fashion and display, will sneer at the conscientious, truth-loving, God-fearing people, and will, in this work, sneer at the God of heaven Himself. The Bible is disregarded, the wisdom of men exalted, and Satan and the man of sin worshiped by the wisdom of this age, while the angel is flying through the midst of heaven crying 'Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth.' (Revelation 8: 13).

I have been shown that the hand of the Lord is stretched out already to punish those who will become monuments of divine displeasure and holy vengeance, for the day of recompense has come when men who exalted the man of sin in the place of Jehovah in worshiping an idol sabbath in the place of the Sabbath of the Lord Jehovah will find it a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, for he is a consuming fire.

Ellen White obviously places the three woes of Revelation as sounding post-1844. We have assumed, and even so stated, that the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are silent on the signal event that sets in motion the visible, tangible event to be witnessed by all of humanity simultaneously-a still-future event that commences the official march to battle by the confederated forces of evil-to the battle of Armageddon. This event will render the word atheism a bygone term in the thoughts of humanity; every living human will be mindful of God. H Heiks The Three Woes of Revelation January 2016
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/14/16 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: His child
I await your reply from the pen of EGW.


Here's one that I never noticed before today. E. G. White identifies "kings and rulers" who war against the saint at the end as the dragon:
Quote:
Kings and rulers and governors have placed upon themselves the brand of antichrist, and are represented as the dragon who goes to make war with the saints--with those who keep the commandments of God and who have the faith of Jesus. TM 39.


This fits the scenario that I presented perfectly. Thank you.
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/14/16 07:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This ties in nicely with this passage:
Quote:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,[the dragon] gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


The kings of the earth though acting on Satan's behalf do not necessarily symbolize the dragon.

The great red dragon in Rev 12 had 7-heads depicting: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome. To conclude that Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, or papal Rome depicted Satan would be incorrect. He used these powers, but papal Rome is identified as the in the very next chapter as the beast and the dragon is not the beast. So in spite of the assumptions, the conclusion is wrong.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Many will honestly search the Word for Light as those in the past have searched it; and they see light in the Word. But they did not pass over the ground in their experience, when these messages of warning were first proclaimed. Not having had this experience, some do not appreciate the value of the truths that have been to us as waymarks, and that have made us as a peculiar people what we are. They do not make a right application of the Scriptures, and thus they frame theories that are not correct. It is true that they quote an abundance of Scripture, and teach much that is true; but truth is so mixed with error as to lead to wrong conclusions. Yet because they can weave Scripture into their theories, they think that they have a straight chain of truth. Many who did not have an experience in the rise of the messages, accept these erroneous theories, and are led into false paths, backward instead of forward. This is the enemy's design. {2SM 110.4}
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/14/16 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
So if we identify the Beast as all of the Reformers did, the Papacy; the dragon as Ellen White does above, then by elimination, the false prophet is either apostate Protestantism or Spiritualism. Since fallen Protestantism ultimately comes under the complete control of Spiritualism the two become one - fallen Protestantism/Spiritualism.

So the identities are, imo:

Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?



Beast = Papacy [Pope Francis I]

Dragon = Kings of the Earth = a particular king of the earth
*he is identified in Revelation 17:10-11 & 20
"And there are seven kings [post-1929 popes who had their kingdom restored to them by Mussolini]: five are fallen [Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, & John-Paul I], and one is [John-Paul II], and the other is not yet come [Benedict XVI]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [7 # of completeness (2005 his ascension year) his first year began on New year's day on Babylonian calendar 29 March 2006 and he left office 28 February 2013 a month short of completeness].
And the beast that was [John-Paul II], and is not [he died], even he [John-Paul II] is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Rev_17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Rev 20:2-3 "And he [angel from Heaven] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Dragon = Satan who ascends from the bottomless pit posing as king/pope John-Paul II the pope that was and is dead who is the eighth and is of the 7.

Originally Posted By: EGW
"As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath [THE BOTTOMLESS PIT]. Satan will not only appear as a human being[JOHN-PAUL II], but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working..." {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}


Originally Posted By: EGW
"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome." {GC88 588.1}


Satan personating John-Paul II can deceive the world with his "spiritual body" and remind them of Dies Domini (JP II's teaching of "Sunday sacredness").

John 20:27 "Then saith he [Jesus] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

John 16:4 "But these things have I [Jesus] told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them."

False Prophet = Pope Benedict XVI.

Jeremiah 14:14 "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart."

2Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Beast = Pope Francis I
Dragon = Satan as John-Paul II
False Prophet = Benedict XVI.

How many kings did Babylon have when it fell?

King Nabonidus
King Belshazzar
King Daniel

Daniel 5:29 "Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom."

Originally Posted By: EGW
"Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated... We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know." {SpTA07 55.1}
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/14/16 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
His Child: You may be thinking of this quote:
Quote:
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}

The reference above to the three fold union doesn't directly tie the three frogs that issue from the mouths of the beast, dragon and false prophet to those entities I've listed but the implied connection is fairly strong. It's a blessing to me that this came up just now because in the back of my mind I've been wanting to nail down the identity of these three for a few weeks or more but haven't taken the time to study it. To have that first quote dropped in my lap today by the Lord was an unexpected gift - like a nugget thrown my way without any effort on my part.


Hey Mark

Definitely NOT thinking of that quote in this context. I know that GW was placed in office by a protestant mandate and he physically reached his hand across the gulf to clasp the hand of the Roman power to present Pope John-Paul II with a gold medal in 2004. Then GW physically reached his hand across the gulf to clasp the hand of spiritualism to present the Dalai Lama with a gold medal in 2008.

And this exact quote appears with spiritualism listed first and the Roman power second. Thus after giving the Dalai Lama the gold medal, GW received Pope Benedict as a guest to the White House on 15 April clasping the hand of the roman power.

And since the union of GW, the pope, and the leader of spiritualism, America has repudiated every principle of our constitution. And I could tell you about something that is about to happen that will grind the Constitution into the dust...

Thank you for your thoughts. If you have any solid evidence from the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy to make your point, I'm still open to consider it.

Christian regards
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/21/16 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick


Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?


The three unclean spirits are named after their religious influences which all have received their powers from the Dragon, the Satan. Therefore, it is incorrect to interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as 'kings of the earth'.

Pastor Kenneth Cox has explained in his latest book, Four Winds of Revelation, about the three unclean spirits.
Quote:
What do the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have in common? They each have "unclean spirits like frogs" coming out of their mouths. And how do frogs catch their prey? With their tongues. These false prophets seek to deceive others via their spiritual beliefs. The dragon's belief is paganism; the beast's is Roman catholicism; and the false prophet's is apostate Protestantism. Therefore, whatever the three unite on, it must be something on which paganism, Catholicism, and Protestantism all agree. Four Winds of Revelation page 61-62, Pacific Press Publishing Association July 2015
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/21/16 07:14 AM

Quote:
The great red dragon in Rev 12 had 7-heads depicting: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome.


When we consider the time frame of the great red dragon who stood before the woman to devour her child, Jesus, as soon as it was born, the seven heads of the dragon would be signifying the counterpart powers against the God's church, which is the seven churches.

Rev. 1:4 "John to the seven churches....and from the seven Spirits..."

The Holy Spirit "saith unto the churches" to every church of the seven churches. We understand that there is no seven different Spirits but only one Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:4). It is figure of speech to say 'seven Spirits' because the Holy Spirit involved actively for each of the seven churches.
Rev. 3:1 "...These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God..."

Likewise, the dragon with the seven heads would be depicting the counterpart of the seven churches to oppose the working of God for His church.

Rev. 12:12 "...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Notice that the beast rise up from the sea also has 'seven heads' which the imagery parallels with the dragon. Obviously the dragon gave this beast his power, his seat, and great authority to go against the seven churches as his agent.

Rev. 13:1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy".

I understand that this beast has features of the beast in the Book of Daniel but without any mention of head. The beast rise up out of the sea is having seven heads and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Why each head of the seven would have the name of blasphemy?

Rev. 13:6 said, "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven".

Remember that Jesus said, "to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" Rev. 3:21

Jesus has set on the throne of God in heaven when the seven church dispensation periods started but the beast with the seven heads is saying, 'worship me' through out the christian era. So the beast blasphemes God.

Rev. 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

This beast has "full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns" Rev. 17:3. Who sits on the seven headed beast? The harlot woman who "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" Rev. 17:6. Many martyrs of Jesus accumulated after the cross of Calvary during the church dispensational periods. Therefore it makes better sense to interpret the seven heads as the counterpart forces against the seven churches.

Rev. 17:9 says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

The evil forces of the seven heads may appear like a force of mountain which is against the seven churches. God's people need to have wisdom to make war with the seven headed beast under the banner of the Lamb.

The seven churches of God is the militant church. The great red dragon knows that so he comes down unto the church with great wrath in his seven heads.

Rev. 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads".
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/22/16 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

The three unclean spirits are named after their religious influences which all have received their powers from the Dragon, the Satan. Therefore, it is incorrect to interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as 'kings of the earth'.

Pastor Kenneth Cox has explained in his latest book, Four Winds of Revelation, about the three unclean spirits.
Quote:
What do the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have in common? They each have "unclean spirits like frogs" coming out of their mouths. And how do frogs catch their prey? With their tongues. These false prophets seek to deceive others via their spiritual beliefs. The dragon's belief is paganism; the beast's is Roman catholicism; and the false prophet's is apostate Protestantism. Therefore, whatever the three unite on, it must be something on which paganism, Catholicism, and Protestantism all agree. Four Winds of Revelation page 61-62, Pacific Press Publishing Association July 2015


Though I highly respect Pastor Cox, his views are to be compared to the Scriptures as anyone else's.

Dragon=Satan

Rev_12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Notice that when the same three individuals are cited here the dragon is listed as the devil, who is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet

Rev_20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are..."

Regarding the logic about the dragon's tongue:

Joh_8:44 the devil... When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

the beast is Roman Catholicism = Pope Francis I the head of the RC

Regarding the logic about Pope Francis' tongue:

Papists teach "that certain individuals [popes and priests] are the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the Fathers of the church " {GW92 125.1} [pope=papa=father]

"Satan sought to correct the law of God in heaven, and ... virtually declared God to be fallible. The pope also ... virtually says to the world, I will give you better laws than those of Jehovah. What an insult is this to the God of heaven!" {ST, November 19, 1894 par. 2}

But as to the identity of the false prophet being Apostate America?

Rev_16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

Rev_19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him [Francis an individual] the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he [the false prophet an individual] deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

"It was far more agreeable to the people to receive the message of the false prophet, who predicted prosperity; therefore it was received." {4T 172.1}

In the book "Pope Benedict in the Holy Land" Benedict XVI repeatedly spoke of prosperity and peace:

"May he [God] bless Jordan with prosperity and peace!" (p. 10)

"As I bid you farewell...I pray that you may enjoy peace and prosperity, now and for generations to come." (p. 51)

"The Gospel reassures us that God can make all things new, that history need not be repeated, that memories can be healed, that the bitter fruits of recrimination, and hostility can be overcome, and that a future of justice, peace, prosperity, and cooperation can arise for every man and woman, for the whole human family, and in a special way for the people who dwell in this land so dear to the heart of the Savior." (p. 130)

While Pope Benedict XVI was in the Holy Land, His message was of peace and safety. But God's word warns of Armageddon-not peace and safety to the Mideast.

The messages from the tongue of Benedict are those of a false prophet.
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/22/16 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Quote:
The great red dragon in Rev 12 had 7-heads depicting: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome.


When we consider the time frame of the great red dragon who stood before the woman to devour her child, Jesus, as soon as it was born, the seven heads of the dragon would be signifying the counterpart powers against the God's church, which is the seven churches.


Karen,

The quote that you cited is right on.

But Imagine entities in the 7-churches trying to kill the Manchild

That would be like the Church of Israel in Christ's day that compelled Rome to crucify Christ repeating its actions seven times.


Timeframe in Rev 12:

FACT:
Before Satan was on earth

Rev 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

It was a wonder that Satan could appear in Heaven (where God dwells) or in the starry heaven.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Fact:
The symbolic PREGNANT woman standing on the moon depicts Israel & its 12 tribes before the Manchild was born.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

FACTS:
There were about 1260-years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth

Egypt issued a death decree to kill the Manchild
Assyria annihilated Israel and tried to do the same to Judah (to kill the Manchild)
Babylon castrated men in David's line to prevent the Manchild's birth
Medo-Persia had a universal Jewish death decree (to kill the Manchild)
Greece under Antiochus IV persecuted the Jews (to kill the Manchild)
Pagan Rome - Herod tried to kill the Manchild in Bethlehem
Pagan Rome killed the Manchild, who arose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

Papal Rome tried to kill the Manchild's people for 1260-years
and that is enlarged and explained in Rev 13

FACT:
After the Manchild ascends to heaven, the meaning of Revelation 12 is repeated in Rev 13

FACTS:
The papal beast in Rev 13 is described in similar terms as the beast in Rev 12
Both beasts are allotted 1260-years/days to war against the Manchild

More later (maybe)
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/25/16 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
IMHO--A more up to date view:

out of the mouth of the dragon -- Satan posing as Pope John-Paul II
out of the mouth of the beast -- Pope Francis I
out of the mouth of the false prophet -- Pope Benedict Emeritus

But this seems nothing but confusion. Do you disagree with Ellen White?


Does Ellen White say what you think she says?

I'd like to see where you find that she is supposed to disagree with what I shared.

I await your reply from the pen of EGW.
Show where Ellen White says that either the dragon or false prophet represents any pope, let alone some specific pope.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/25/16 03:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y


The three unclean spirits are named after their religious influences which all have received their powers from the Dragon, the Satan. Therefore, it is incorrect to interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as 'kings of the earth'.
Karen, this is the heart of what I disagree, of which you have not explained how it's possible.

It is NOT the dragon of three unclean spirits. The dragon is of only ONE unclean spirit.

See your quote:
Quote:
Pastor Kenneth Cox has explained in his latest book, Four Winds of Revelation, about the three unclean spirits.
Quote:
What do the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have in common? They each have "unclean spirits like frogs" coming out of their mouths. And how do frogs catch their prey? With their tongues. These false prophets seek to deceive others via their spiritual beliefs. The dragon's belief is paganism; the beast's is Roman catholicism; and the false prophet's is apostate Protestantism. Therefore, whatever the three unite on, it must be something on which paganism, Catholicism, and Protestantism all agree. Four Winds of Revelation page 61-62, Pacific Press Publishing Association July 2015


They each. Each of what? Three things: Dragon, beast, false prophet.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/25/16 03:11 AM

Quote:
FACTS:
There were about 1260-years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth
QUESTIONS:
Why should you start counting at Moses?

Which Bible Manuscripts suggest 1260 years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth?
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/26/16 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Show where Ellen White says that either the dragon or false prophet represents any pope, let alone some specific pope.


Kland

Though you never answered my question, you asked a fair question so I will give you an honest answer.

But I won't spend allot of time rehashing it. I have posted much of the information on different threads on this forum and I have a book available that goes over it step by step. If you want an e-book with the full story send me a PM.

Originally Posted By: Bible
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17:11-12).


And there are seven kings/popes:
five are fallen:
1)Pius XI
2)Pius XII
3)John XXIII
4)Paul VI
5)John-Paul I

and one is:
6)John-Paul II

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space:

7)Benedict XVI

Originally Posted By: EG White
"The number 7 indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the history of the world." {AA 585.3}


Babylonian custom the king in office on New years day (29 March)got credit for the entire year until 28 March.

Pope John-Paul II died 2 April 2005 - Benedict ascension year completed John-Paul II's final year.

Benedict XVI's first year began 29 March 2006 (after he completed John-Paul II's last year).

Benedict XVI's time in office was from 29 March 2006 to 28 February 2013. Benedict XVI left office about a month short of 7-years= a short space.

Because I understood that a short space was less than the number of completeness, I tweeted 8 times from 9/01/2011 to 9/30/2012 Benedict tweets that concluded: Benedict XVI won't be pope in 2013, who's going to be the new pope? And he might last till Spring of 2013. They are in the Twitter archives dated during the 14-months before Benedict resigned.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth:

John-Paul II received a deadly wound and survived
like the papacy that was world dominant for 1260-years
and dead because of a deadly wound
and alive again when the deadly wound was healed in 1929

Knowing the state of the dead John-Paul II cannot come back to life BUT THIS KING

is of the seven, and goeth into perdition:

Satan goes to perdition:

Originally Posted By: Bible
Rev_17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."


Originally Posted By: Bible
Rev 20:1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


Satan is the one that's comes from beneath (the bottomless pit) and goes into perdition.

Originally Posted By: EG White
"As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. Protestantism will yet stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; she will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, our country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {4SP 405.1}


A pope would qualify as a human being.

Originally Posted By: EG White
"Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working, that men will do as they did in the days of Christ; ... Christ will be represented in the person of those who accept the truth, and who identify their interest with that of their Lord." {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}


Originally Posted By: EG White
"Here is a test, and, Brother..., you can apply it if you will. You need not go in uncertainty and doubt. Satan is at hand to suggest a variety of doubts, but if you will open your eyes in faith you will find sufficient evidence for belief. But God will never remove from any man all causes for doubts. Those who love to dwell in the atmosphere of doubt and questioning unbelief can have the unenviable privilege. God gives sufficient evidence for the candid mind to believe; but he who turns from the weight of evidence because there are a few things which he cannot make plain to his finite understanding will be left in the cold, chilling atmosphere of unbelief and questioning doubts, and will make shipwreck of faith. You have seemed to consider it a virtue to be on the side of the doubting rather than on the side of the believing. Jesus never praised unbelief; He never commended doubts. He gave to His nation evidences of His Messiahship in the miracles He wrought, but there were some who considered it a virtue to doubt and who would reason these evidences away and find something in every good work to question and censure. {4T 232.1}
Posted By: His child

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/26/16 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
FACTS:
There were about 1260-years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth
QUESTIONS:
Why should you start counting at Moses?

Which Bible Manuscripts suggest 1260 years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth?


"William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the mid-20th century, proposed a date of around 1250–1200 BCE"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Jewish History

"Torah Given (1313 BCE)

On the 6th Sivan of the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), seven weeks after the Exodus, G-d revealed Himself on Mount Sinai. The entire people of Israel (600,000 heads of households and their families), as well as the souls of all future generations of Jews, heard G-d declare the first two of the Ten Commandments and witnessed G-d's communication of the other eight through Moses. Following the revelation, Moses ascended the mountain for 40 days, to receive the remainder of the Torah from G-d." http://www.chabad.org/calendar/view/day_cdo/aid/282243/jewish/Torah-Given.htm

They cannot date the Exodus exactly any better than we can prove the date of the stoning of Stephen.

The context of Rev 12 is the dragon using pagan powers to kill the Manchild. The Bible says that Egypt's pharaoh ordered that the male Hebrews be drowned 80-years before the Exodus. The context aligns Egypt as the first pagan nation that tried to kill the Messiah that was born 1260-years later.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/29/16 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Show where Ellen White says that either the dragon or false prophet represents any pope, let alone some specific pope.


Kland

Though you never answered my question, you asked a fair question so I will give you an honest answer.

But I won't spend allot of time rehashing it. I have posted much of the information on different threads on this forum and I have a book available that goes over it step by step. If you want an e-book with the full story send me a PM.

Originally Posted By: Bible
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17:11-12).


And there are seven kings/popes:
five are fallen:
1)Pius XI
2)Pius XII
3)John XXIII
4)Paul VI
5)John-Paul I

and one is:
6)John-Paul II

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space:

7)Benedict XVI

Originally Posted By: EG White
"The number 7 indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the history of the world." {AA 585.3}


Babylonian custom the king in office on New years day (29 March)got credit for the entire year until 28 March.

Pope John-Paul II died 2 April 2005 - Benedict ascension year completed John-Paul II's final year.

Benedict XVI's first year began 29 March 2006 (after he completed John-Paul II's last year).

Benedict XVI's time in office was from 29 March 2006 to 28 February 2013. Benedict XVI left office about a month short of 7-years= a short space.

Because I understood that a short space was less than the number of completeness, I tweeted 8 times from 9/01/2011 to 9/30/2012 Benedict tweets that concluded: Benedict XVI won't be pope in 2013, who's going to be the new pope? And he might last till Spring of 2013. They are in the Twitter archives dated during the 14-months before Benedict resigned.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth:

John-Paul II received a deadly wound and survived
like the papacy that was world dominant for 1260-years
and dead because of a deadly wound
and alive again when the deadly wound was healed in 1929

Knowing the state of the dead John-Paul II cannot come back to life BUT THIS KING

is of the seven, and goeth into perdition:

Satan goes to perdition:

Originally Posted By: Bible
Rev_17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."


Originally Posted By: Bible
Rev 20:1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


Satan is the one that's comes from beneath (the bottomless pit) and goes into perdition.

Originally Posted By: EG White
"As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. Protestantism will yet stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; she will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, our country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {4SP 405.1}


A pope would qualify as a human being.

Originally Posted By: EG White
"Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working, that men will do as they did in the days of Christ; ... Christ will be represented in the person of those who accept the truth, and who identify their interest with that of their Lord." {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}


Originally Posted By: EG White
"Here is a test, and, Brother..., you can apply it if you will. You need not go in uncertainty and doubt. Satan is at hand to suggest a variety of doubts, but if you will open your eyes in faith you will find sufficient evidence for belief. But God will never remove from any man all causes for doubts. Those who love to dwell in the atmosphere of doubt and questioning unbelief can have the unenviable privilege. God gives sufficient evidence for the candid mind to believe; but he who turns from the weight of evidence because there are a few things which he cannot make plain to his finite understanding will be left in the cold, chilling atmosphere of unbelief and questioning doubts, and will make shipwreck of faith. You have seemed to consider it a virtue to be on the side of the doubting rather than on the side of the believing. Jesus never praised unbelief; He never commended doubts. He gave to His nation evidences of His Messiahship in the miracles He wrought, but there were some who considered it a virtue to doubt and who would reason these evidences away and find something in every good work to question and censure. {4T 232.1}

Yes, I understand you saying the dragon or false prophet represents popes, but I was asking
Show where Ellen White says that either the dragon or false prophet represents any pope, let alone some specific pope.

Quote:
Does Ellen White say what you think she says?

I'd like to see where you find that she is supposed to disagree with what I shared.

I await your reply from the pen of EGW.
Yes, I believe Ellen White, but how can I show where she disagrees with you? There's nothing the same. So, I guess, everything? That's why I didn't answer, couldn't answer. There's no basis between you and her.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 02/29/16 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
FACTS:
There were about 1260-years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth
QUESTIONS:
Why should you start counting at Moses?

Which Bible Manuscripts suggest 1260 years from Moses birth in Egypt until Christ's birth?


"William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the mid-20th century, proposed a date of around 1250–1200 BCE"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Jewish History

"Torah Given (1313 BCE)

On the 6th Sivan of the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), seven weeks after the Exodus, G-d revealed Himself on Mount Sinai. The entire people of Israel (600,000 heads of households and their families), as well as the souls of all future generations of Jews, heard G-d declare the first two of the Ten Commandments and witnessed G-d's communication of the other eight through Moses. Following the revelation, Moses ascended the mountain for 40 days, to receive the remainder of the Torah from G-d." http://www.chabad.org/calendar/view/day_cdo/aid/282243/jewish/Torah-Given.htm

They cannot date the Exodus exactly any better than we can prove the date of the stoning of Stephen.

The context of Rev 12 is the dragon using pagan powers to kill the Manchild. The Bible says that Egypt's pharaoh ordered that the male Hebrews be drowned 80-years before the Exodus. The context aligns Egypt as the first pagan nation that tried to kill the Messiah that was born 1260-years later.

Is that same as saying, no good reason other than within 50 years of what one dude proposed?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/13/16 05:43 AM

The Scripture is recorded that the king Herod was Satan's agent to "devour her child as soon as it was born" (Rev. 12:5).

Matt. 2:1-18 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem....When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, ...he demanded of them where Christ should be born...Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently...for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him...Then Herod,...was exceeding wroth, .. and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem...from two years old and under...Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,..."

In Rev. Chap. 12, the woman gave birth to Manchild, Jesus, but "her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" (verse 5). Thus "the dragon was wroth with the woman (because he could not devour Manchild), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed," (Rev. 12:17) with the seven heads.

It makes more sense to me that the significance of the seven heads of the dragon is the counterpart to the christian eras (seven churches) rather than starting to count the dragon's seven heads from the ancient empire nations.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/13/16 06:58 AM

Upon the third plague, the rivers and fountains of water turned to blood which denotes condition of the fresh water became deadly. The third trumpet is announcing this coming plague. Rev. 8:10 "And the third angel sounded,...and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;"

Since the one third of the fresh water has not turned deadly in the world as yet, the third trumpet has to be considered as present and future event.

The heavenly angels are much to say when the third plague poured out.
"And I heard the angel of the waters say...And I heard another out of the altar say,..." Rev. 16:5,7

"...Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy...Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." Rev. 16:5,6,7

Since the fallen star is involved, which denotes old serpent and his evil angels (Rev. 12:9), the heavenly angels have much to speak about in the third plague.

At the third trumpet's sound, there is a star fell from heaven.

Rev. 8:10 "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;"

Luke 10:18 Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".

Seeing the correlation between the third plague and the third trumpet, surely God does foretell His secret to his servants the prophet before He performs it.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/17/16 04:52 AM

Heavenly angels are eagerly commenting that God is righteous in turning the fresh water to bloody or deadly. Another words, the angels are saying that the reason of shedding the blood of the saints and the prophets caused the water to turn bloody.

The fallen star, the devil, has revolted against God’s government. The saints and the prophets would not submit to him but rather become martyrs of the Lord. The third church of Pergamos mentions of the faithful martyr, Antipas, who was slain where Satan dwells. The black horse in the third seal depicts compromise. Heavenly angels have record of those who would keep their faith unto the martyrs’ death. Thereby, the angels are commenting, “"Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy...Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." Rev. 16:5,6,7
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/21/16 12:50 AM

Can you hear the chorus of angels sing their rapturous songs, ascribing praise, honor, and glory to Jesus? They saw the wondrous love of Jesus who left all the glory and honor of heaven to demonstrate the plan of salvation. Jesus bore every indignity and slight which man could heap upon Him. He bore so patiently and meekly to the point of death. The angels saw the mystery of redeeming love. This our little world is the lesson book of the universe and the angels are commenting in their rapturous songs, "Amen" and "Amen" in the sevenfold praises, “Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might” (Rev. 7:12). They comprehend the greatness of the infinite love of God in the plan of redemption.
I believe that the angelic comment of praise in the Chapter 7 verifies that all the redeemed from the earth are presented in two groups of people: 1)the great multitudes and 2)the 144,000 who stand before the throne of God.

The multitudes "stood before the throne" is mentioned in Rev. 7:9 and the 144,000 is going to stand "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev.7:15). At this drama of the vision, the angelic host also "stood round about the throne" (Rev. 7:11) and sang "Amen" and "Amen".
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/28/16 01:04 PM

There are five teams of heavenly counsel in the throne room of the chapters 4 and 5.
1) throne of God
2) four living creatures
3) 24 elders
4) angels
5) universal beings

When Apostle John saw the vision of the throne room, he wept much. There was no man worthy to open the sealed book with seven seals, which meant the title deed of mankind. One of the elders said, "weep not" for the Lamb has prevailed to open the book. So Jesus is found worthy to open the book to redeem the sinners from the earth. Chapter 7 introduces those redeemed sinners, therefore: 1)the great multitudes(GM) and 2) 144,000.
These two groups of the redeemed will stand "before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:9,15) when the redemption complete. They will make the perfect seven teams of the heavenly assembly. If the 144,000 and the GM are the one and the same groups, where is an assurance that the resurrected saints
will stand "before the throne"? Can they ever united with the family of God in heaven? Didn't Jesus promised to all the overcomers to sit on the throne of God as He sat with the Father? (Rev. 3:21).
There was a question when each seal being opened in Rev. 6:17, saying, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" So the next chapter 7 is an interlude to answer this question. All the sealed of God on the earth will be redeemed: the 144,000 and the GM.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 03/31/16 06:27 AM

The 144,000 are the "redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3). Again it is mentioned in Rev. 14:4, "These were redeemed from among men." The 144,000 are "the firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4). And then, may I ask, where are the rest of the fruits?

The 144,000 "stand before the throne" (Rev. 7:15) and sing the song of Moses (Rev. 15:3,4). Will the rest of fruits—the resurrected saints— also sing redemption song? I suppose that the numberless saints who asleep in the Lord wanted to sing the redemption song before the throne someday. Psalm 30:4 says, "Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness."

In the Book of Revelation, 14 pieces of hymn are recorded. Each of the five groups from the chapters 4 and 5 sing their redemption song through out the Book of Revelation. The redeemed 144,000 also sing their redemption song with their harps (Rev. 15:2). What about the resurrected saints? Are they ever going to stand before the throne and sing their redemption song? Absolutely! The Great Multitudes (GM) will have palm branch in their hand and stand "before the throne" (Rev. 7:9) to sing with "a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb" (Rev. 7:10). Think about how much King David longed to sing praises to the Lord. "I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever. Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever" (Psalm 145:1,2).

"In the Revelation all the books of the Bible meet and end." AA585.1
Bible prophecy in the book of Joel 2:28, for example, will ultimately fulfill in a greater scope at the book of Revelation.

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and you daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

The saints who sleep in the Lord have the assurance in the book of Revelation that their longing to praise God will be fulfilled. That is what the GM sang. See Rev. 7:9,10.

The 144,000 are from one nation, spiritual Israel, which signifies one faith that are sealed and perfectly united like an army with banners (Song of Sol. 6:10). But the GM came from all nations.

The 144,000 are the living ones and the GM are the resurrected saints at the Second Coming of Jesus. There are only two groups who would be raptured when Jesus returns to take His saints to the kingdom of God. See 1 Thess. 4:16,17.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/07/16 06:01 AM

Quote:
The 144,000 are the "redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3). Again it is mentioned in Rev. 14:4, "These were redeemed from among men." The 144,000 are "the firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4). And then, may I ask, where are the rest of the fruits?
[quote=Karen Y]

the 144,000 is the "holy seed" (Isa. 6:13) as the "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4). The GM is all the redeemed who are resurrected at the Second Coming of Jesus. The firstfruits will be gathered by the "sickle" (Rev. 14:15,16) and the GM by the sound of the silver trumpet (1 Cor. 15:51,52). Jesus will come only for the two groups of the saints: the living and the dead arise. See 1 Thess 4:16,17.

We are told that 144,000 will go through the great time of trouble "such as was not since the beginning of the world" (Matt. 24:21). So there is a cry, says,"who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17). There will be a "great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth" (Rev. 16:18). The Seven Plagues so severe that "no flesh be saved" (Matt. 24:22) if those days not shortened. The humanity is threatened to be extinct. But the remnant of God, 144,000, are surviving during the wrath of God which poured out upon the earth. God says what He means. The 144,000 are the literal number. Apostle John even said, "I heard the number of them" (Rev. 7:4) clearly and distinctively as the trumpet sound (Rev. 1:10).

"How long halt ye between two opinions?" (1 Kings 18:21). Is 144,000 symbolic or literal? We are not to follow the majority but the testimony of Scripture.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/14/16 06:34 AM

144,000 are the "called, and chosen, and faithful" to finish the battle of the great controversy between good and evil (Rev. Chapter 17).
Satan's power may appear strong but 144,000 will overcome them by the powers of Almighty God (Rev. Chapter 15).
144,000 are the overcomers of the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name (Rev. Chapter 13).
The triumphant of 144,000 is awesome militant of the Lord as the final runner. Heb. 11:40 "that they without us"— 144,000— "should not be made perfect".
The four winds held in check until these 144,000 are sealed. God forbids the evil spirits to harm the sealed of God in Rev. 9:4, which says, "it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads". Remember that the tree depicts leader and the green grass depicts common people.

When the sealing is completed, there is command to release the hold of the four angels in Revelation; "Loose the four angels" (9:14) and the voice came out "from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God" (9:13).

We are told that the Seven Trumpets are announcement of the coming catastrophes in the world in Seven Plagues. The last three woes are more urgent and severe announcements than the first four trumpets, which denotes the worldwide impacts. See Rev. Chapters 8-9.

1 Cor. 14:8 "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"

The announcement of the Seven Trumpets must awaken the Seven Churches, in turn that the Seven Churches will be prepared for the complete sealing. The sealed of God are not fearful of the coming Seven Plagues. So with a loud voice—"cried mightily with a strong voice" (Rev. 18:2)—the sealed of God will make known the coming Seven Plagues to the world for the final call.

The interpretation of the Seven Trumpets must be reconsidered. The messages are given to prepare the church; it gives us visions.
Proverbs 29:18 says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish".
no wonder that the Laodicean church is so lukewarm because of no vision of the Seven Trumpets.

In the past the Seven Trumpets have been interpreted as corresponding eras as the Seven Churches and the Seven Seals. I am convinced, rather, that the Seven Plagues correspond with the Seven Trumpets in the interpretation. God will not pour out the Seven Plagues without warnings. Our God is merciful God. He promised that He will let us know what He is going to do. Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/17/16 05:24 AM

it is easy to notice correlations on the fourth series of the major themes—seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets and seven plagues—of the Book of Revelation.

Fourth plague is poured upon the sun. It scorched men with fire and great heat.
The sun, moon, and stars were made for "seasons, and for days, and years" (Gen. 1:14) on the fourth day of the creation. They were made for the signs of time. So the sun must be showing the signs of time when it scorches men with great heat as the plague.

The fourth church hints us the reason of the sun exhibiting signs of time. In Rev. 2:20 we are told the woman Jezebel taught and seduced the fourth church. She represents Baal worship. When king Ahab said to Elijah, "Art thou he that troubleth Israel?" (1 King 18:17), Elijah said, "I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim" (1 King 18:18).

The pale horse in the fourth seal denotes the Dark Ages when the papacy had power over the fourth part of the earth, "to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:8).

The fourth trumpet is sounding the alarm in a figurative language that the "third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise" (Rev. 8:12). The passage is saying that the heavenly bodies are showing the signs of the time. This is the announcement of the fourth plague. The message is clear to us that the Sunday worship is wrong. It is the counterfeit of Sabbath.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" is the commandment of God in the fourth commandment. The name of the Lord is mentioned seven times in the Ten Commandments and the fourth commandment alone has three times.

I find very interesting that the fourth of the series has connection to the fourth commandment.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/27/16 04:54 AM

I am watching a live series of meetings (Unlocking Revelation) out of Michigan by Jay Galimore on You Tube, who said some interesting things about the 7 trumpets and the 7 plagues that you would probably also find interesting.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 04/30/16 06:23 AM

The significance of the sun scorching heat in the fourth plague is because of the issue of Sunday observance as I have posted in my study last time.
Now I am thinking why the seat of the beast must be plagued as the fifth plague has described. The Rev. 17 and 18 enlarge further about the beast and his kingdom after the beast was introduced in the chapter 13.
Rev. 17:6 says, "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" by the kingdom of Babylon.
In the fifth seal, martyrs of Jesus cry out, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev. 6:10). The beast—"that dwell on the earth"—continues to kill the servants of God, must be even now—if not obviously, then undercover—, because Rev. 6:11 says, "white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
The beast seems that he is never afraid to kill the saints and prophets of God as in the past of the church history. Angels have said in Rev. 16:5-6, "Thou art righteous, O Lord, ... because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets."
The fifth church of Sardis is denoted the reformation church during christian era that is from the Papacy. Many reformers were martyred by the beast power at the time. Undoubtedly the Book of Revelation tells us the cause of the fifth plague upon the seat of the beast. Rev. 18:6 says, "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double."
When the fifth plague falls, the beast and his kingdom became darkened just as the fifth trumpet has announced , which parallels as the sun and the air darkened by smoke. Considering that the smoke depicts prayers in Rev. 5:8, the seat of the beast prevented the prayers of saints to rise up to the throne of God where Jesus ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. The fallen star—Dragon—gave the beast "his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13:2). As the Dragon's agent, the beast has the key of the bottomless pit—controlling powers of the earth—to cause
the prayers of saints (smoke) not to reach to the throne of God but, instead, caused the sun and the air to darken. This scenario portrays the fifth plague.
At the fifth plague, there is suffering as to "gnawed their tongues for pain" (Rev. 16:10). The fifth trumpet portrays the suffering as "torment" and "men shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6).

The seat of the beast and his kingdom (Babylon) "is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8).

Rev. 18:7, 8 "How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/05/16 06:49 AM

If the seat of the beast is plagued, God's people should have no fear to proclaim their iniquities and blasphemous sins. We are told of their wickedness that is unmasked in Rev. 12, 13, and 14 and further described in Rev. 17 and 18.

Lev. 26:8 says, "And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword."

joshua 23:10 also says, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you as he hath promised you."

Divine power is available to God's people for the final loud cry. If God's people unite their hearts to blast the warning of the beast's blasphemous works and fornication, God will fight for His people. There is a power in unity by God's people.

Isa. 60:22 says, "A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time."

"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet" Isa. 58:1

"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee" Isa. 60:1,2.

The warning of the fifth trumpet assure God's people that the evil spirit of the locusts cannot harm the sealed of God: Rev. 9:4 says, "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green things, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."
We know that the tree and green grass depict mankind. The locusts is able to distinguish between the sealed of God and unsealed, which indicate that they are the evil spirits of devil. The devil delights destroying even his followers. Notice their shapes like unto horses prepared unto battle. They are ready to war with anyone without the seal of God. And they conquer the unprepared souls, which is depicted by wearing crowns like gold. They are deceptive as men. Their faces were as the faces of men. They have hair as the women which indicate seductiveness of their evil. When they bite, they bite like lions and will never let go. Their hearts are cold as the breastplates of iron. And they move fast as chariots with wings. They have power to hurt men until the four angels lose their hold of the wind of the four corners of the earth.

When God commanded the "locusts" not to harm the sealed of God, it must mean until the completion of the sealing. I believe that the time is short. It is evidenced by the seat of the beast and his kingdom which have full of darkness currently.

The fifth trumpet is plainly described for the fifth plague. And the shadow of the fifth plague is already contemporary with us just as the fourth plague.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/06/16 02:40 AM

Hello Daryl: Say, can you post a link to Jay's presentation on the trumpets. Thanks a lot.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/10/16 06:16 AM

The fifth plague.....The fifth seal.....The fifth church.....The fifth trumpet
seat of the beast...martyrs..............church of Sardis....Bottomless pit
Papacy...............Papacy...............church of reformer...Papacy

The fifth plague poured upon the seat of the beast. We know that the beast is Papacy who have killed many saints—martyrs— in the past. Many reformers have come out of the Papacy during the church period of Sardis. The identity of the fallen star—Satan—has given power to Papacy who caused "smoke" to come out of the bottomless pit.

The seat of the beast and his kingdom became darken in the fifth plague. This parallels with the fifth trumpet, which the "smoke" caused the sun and air to darken. The smoke depicts prayers of saints, which must be ascended to the throne of God. The significance of the sun and air that was darkened by the smoke means the Papacy has stolen the prayers of people. The prayers have not reached the throne of God mixed with sweet incense of Jesus. Thus the sun and air have become darkened.

The key of the bottomless pit is given to the Papacy which signifies that he has some control upon the earth—bottomless pit.

The fifth trumpet is more clamorous than the fifth plague because its announcement has to go out noisily than the plague in hope of less numbers of unrepentant sinners.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/18/16 04:41 AM

The beast of the Revelation represents the Papacy. Rev. 13:4 says, "Who is like unto the beast (the Papacy)? who is able to make war with him (the Papacy)?" Really? who is saying this?

The dragon is saying this as he worships the beast! Please read it again what Rev. 13:4 is saying: "And they (the beast or Papacy) worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast: and they (the dragon) worshipped the beast (the Papacy), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

The Papacy (the beast) and the dragon are so closely united: they worship each other. This tells me that the "fallen star" denotes the beast (the Papacy) in the fifth trumpet. The Papacy snatches prayers of people which caused the sun and the air darken. Thus the spiritual darkness is announced as a consequence.

The fifth plague is poured upon the seat of the beast—the Papacy kingdom. Rev. 16:10 says, "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain"

How clearly correspond to the fifth plague in the announcement of the fifth trumpet! Do we perceive the darkness in the kingdom of the beast at the present time? Are they not repenting even though they bite their tongues for pain? Rev. 16:11 says, "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds." They do not repent!

The fifth trumpet announced that "in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6). Even in the pain of death, the seat of the beast blasphemes God and do not repent.
Posted By: ProdigalOne

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/21/16 09:11 AM

I believe it is the population of the world that is shown worshipping the dragon and the beast in Revelation 13.

Notice that the final sentence of verse 3 says: "all the world wondered after the beast." Of course the verse numbering has been added by man; therefore, the end of verse 3 and the beginning of verse 4 are not divided in any way.

Thus a more accurate reading would be:"... and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon".


3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

I see no indication that the dragon and beast are worshipping each other.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/22/16 05:27 AM

Thanks for your comment. That's how I read all these years and supposed that was correct understanding. I even reread a few more times trying to look at your viewpoint. However, the subject in verse 3 is the beast (Papacy) as well as verse 4 and 5. I even reread in my native language which is more clearly written that the subject is the beast.

verse 3: "And I saw one of his heads (the Papacy) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

verse 4: "And they (the Papacy) worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast(the Papacy): and they (dragon) worshipped the beast (the Papacy), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

verse 5: "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and continue forty and two months"

All three verses have not changed their subject as the beast (the Papacy) and secondary subject is the dragon (Satan). The verse 4 imageries are the two parties complementing each other. "all the world wondered after the beast" is not the subject in the verse 4. This is more confirmed from verse 5, which said, "there was given unto him (the Papacy) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;" If the "all the world" is subject, verse 5 does not make sense because they received "a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" from the dragon (Satan).
Posted By: ProdigalOne

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/24/16 01:17 PM

Sorry Karen, I have to disagree with you.

"And I saw one of his heads...". The subject here is clearly "I" (John).
The subject performs the action, or verb. "I (subject) saw (verb) one of his heads..."
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 05/27/16 10:07 AM

Who gave power to the beast? Rev. 13:5 says, "power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Also 13:2 says, "the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." It is the dragon!

Rev. 13:4 says, "they worshipped the dragon WHICH GAVE POWER UNTO THE BEAST" (upper cases added by me). It is not the world—"all the world wondered after the beast" (verse 3)—worshipped the dragon because they did not give power to the beast.
Rev. 13:4 says, "And they (the Papacy—the beast) worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast(the Papacy): and they (dragon) worshipped the beast (the Papacy), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/13/16 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Hello Daryl: Say, can you post a link to Jay's presentation on the trumpets. Thanks a lot.

Just discovered this now and will see what I can do.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/13/16 02:41 AM

As a lot of time has gone by, this might be the correct link:

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/13/16 03:30 AM

If the above one isn't it, perhaps this one is it:
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/13/16 03:37 AM

Or it could be in this one:
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/13/16 03:40 AM

That last one seems to be the same as the first one, therefore, I think the middle one may be the one you are looking for in relation to the trumpets and the plagues.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/21/16 02:46 PM

Rev. 13:4 says, "And they (the Papacy—the beast) worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power" unto him(the Papacy): "and they (dragon) worshipped the beast (the Papacy), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Rev. 9:1 "...to him (the Papacy) was given the key of the bottomless pit." The Papacy has power to control the earth especially at the end time because the dragon gave the power. Their spiritual deception is so strong upon the earth coupled with the false prophets. The "woe, woe, woe" (Rev. 8:13) has been announced. However, it was commanded from God that "they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

The probation will be ceased when the sealing of the 144k complete. Then the "hurt" will be upon the earth because the four angels will let go of their "holding" (Rev. 7:1). The seal of God is the sign between His people and God. Ezekiel 20:20 says, "hallow my sabbaths and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God."

The counterpart of the seal of God is the mark of the beast. The Papacy enforces the mark of the beast by great deception. I believe Rev. 9:2-11 depicts the devilish activities of evils through them.

"They had a king over them" (Rev. 9:11). The beast has seven heads (Rev. 13:1, 17:3,7,9) and they are called "king". Rev. 9:10 says, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." The angel of the bottomless pit is the Papacy,—the emissary of the dragon— who "ascended out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 11:7, 17:8).

The beast has "power to hurt men" (Rev. 9:10). In the Book of Revelation, the 'hurting men' is associated with the close of the probation (Rev. 7:1). I believe that the three woes are upon the earth presently and the close of the probation is very imminent.

Such intertwine of the beast and the dragon is evident. They worship each other trying to accomplish their agenda. I praise God for His sovereignty.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/30/16 06:10 AM

The beast which ascended out of the bottomless pit is mentioned in Rev. 17:8 and Rev. 11:8. He symbolizes who "make war against" God's people especially at the end-time. The dragon gave power to the beast, not only that, he also gave authority and his seat, which denotes religious power, economy power and political power. The beast is dragon's vicegerent agent, which we find more of an enlarged picture of the beast in Rev. 13.

The dragon says, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev.13:4). He also gave the beast "a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" (Rev. 13:5). Satan says, "Through my vicegerent, I will exalt myself...Thus the world will become mine. I will be the ruler of the earth, the prince of the world...The earth will be wholly under my dominion"-Mar 162.4

The world—"all the world wondered after the beast" (Rev. 13:3)— is deceived by the powers of the devil and his vicegerent. The most of the world is not aware of the deception. "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast" (Rev. 13:14). They are even forced to worship the beast—"cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15). Three angels messages are given to unmask the deception (See Rev. 14:6-11).

The destroyer is Satan. The beast is his emissary—a king which is the angel of the bottomless pit. And he is called Abandon or Apollyon, which means destroyer. (See Rev. 9:11). Satan is destroyer and the beast is his vicegerent, destroyer. Dragon worships the beast and the beast worships the dragon in Rev. 13:4.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 06/30/16 01:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The dragon gave power to the beast, not only that, he also gave authority and his seat, which denotes religious power, economy power and political power. The beast is dragon's vicegerent agent, which we find more of an enlarged picture of the beast in Rev. 13.

Hi Karen, I did read some of your posts, but been too busy elsewhere to participate.

I disagree with your above comment. The Bible doesn't say that the earth beast gave authority and his seat -- it says " he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed."

We have to be very careful not to distort, or add or withdraw to the Lord's word.

To me Scripture says that the 2nd beast :

a) exercises all the authority of the 1st beast (thus the 2nd beast did NOT give his authority to the 1st beast as you said.)

b) and he made the earth worship the 1st beast : The reason for this is because the 2nd beast from the earth didn't want to be worshipped for he didn't want to be known so he would remain SECRET. That's why he was later named "Mystery[musterion] Babylon" in Rev 17:5. The Greek word musterion derive from the word muo that means "to shout the mouth" thus musterion means "a secret". The 2nd beast ability to remain SECRET was the source of his main power. He used the visibility of the 1st beast to accomplish that.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/01/16 12:19 AM

Ellen, it seems you misread my comment. The dragon gave power and authority and his seat to the beast, as we are told in “The dragon gave him his power and his seat and great authority” (Rev. 13:2). I did not say the first beast gave his seat to the second beast. So please reread and see that it was the dragon who gave his power to the beast.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/01/16 04:58 AM

Dear Elle not Ellen.

I would like to share some more insights:

In order to identify the angel of the bottomless pit in Rev. 9, we must start from Rev. 17:5, which tells us, “Upon her head was a name written, “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” The dragon gave his power and his seat and great authority to the beast (Rev. 13:2). The beast ascended from the bottomless pit and he “shall make war against them” (Rev. 11:7). The beast is the king from the bottomless pit and who will unleash evil power upon the inhabitants of the earth: “And they had a king over them, which is “the angel of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:11).

We see the path to the angel/king’s identity. It is revealed in Rev. 17 as the harlot who sits on the seven-headed beast; then Rev. 13 as the beast who arises from the sea; then Rev. 11 as the beast ascended from the bottomless pit; and finally Rev. 9, which says the angel is the king of the bottomless pit. Thus the king, who is the angel of the bottomless pit, is the beast. Notice they are in reverse order and are all odd chapter numbers: 17, 13, 11, 9. This is an easy way to identify the angel of the bottomless pit at one glance.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/01/16 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Dear Elle not Ellen.

smile I knew you meant me. No offence taken...Elle is not even my real name. smile

Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I would like to share some more insights:

In order to identify the angel of the bottomless pit in Rev. 9, we must start from Rev. 17:5, which tells us, “Upon her head was a name written, “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” The dragon gave his power and his seat and great authority to the beast (Rev. 13:2). The beast ascended from the bottomless pit and he “shall make war against them” (Rev. 11:7). The beast is the king from the bottomless pit and who will unleash evil power upon the inhabitants of the earth: “And they had a king over them, which is “the angel of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:11).

We see the path to the angel/king’s identity. It is revealed in Rev. 17 as the harlot who sits on the seven-headed beast; then Rev. 13 as the beast who arises from the sea; then Rev. 11 as the beast ascended from the bottomless pit; and finally Rev. 9, which says the angel is the king of the bottomless pit. Thus the king, who is the angel of the bottomless pit, is the beast. Notice they are in reverse order and are all odd chapter numbers: 17, 13, 11, 9. This is an easy way to identify the angel of the bottomless pit at one glance.

That is Very kind and sisterly of you for clarifying and try to link up to my misunderstanding. Blessings! I shouldn't of commented as I wasn't reading all your posts and wasn't aware of the progression of your thoughts.

I think you do an error in linking up the angel of the bottomless pit with Rev 17, and the beasts of Rev 13. I typically substantiate with detail reasons why I make any statement but I can't right now because it is a lot of ground to cover and time is not on my side to do so.

I see the sea beast, the earth beast of Rev 13, the dragon of Rev 12, and the King of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 as all different entities. In the past, I did the same as you by linking many of these as the same. I have reasons to have changed my position.

You know the reformers once they had the printed Bible in their hand; saw and interpretated the book of revelation historically. Meaning the book of revelation is a historical account of events of Christianity in the Western world starting from the time of Pentecost after Jesus death to His 2nd coming with a brief glimpse of the Great White throne and the end.

It is only when Darby and Scofield in the 1800s with their dispensationalism studies that the book of Revelation was interpretated futuristically.

Most of what is written in Revelation including all the 7 trumpets has already taken place. I do plan to give you a brief description with the correlated events in history with links for further readings; so you may consider such an interpretation.

For example, Rev 9, the 5th trumpet is about the rise of Mohammed who claim to have ascended to heaven, spoke to God, and returned on earth to give the people the Koran. His rise was in the year 612 just to place the 5th trumpet in context of history. Mohammed is the "angel" (messenger) who was given the "keys of the abyss"(authority and power) that brought smoke(darkness via his revelation from heaven) into the world that from that smoke "locust"(not literal locust but warriors see Joel 2:3-11) came out of it and devastated the land symbolically like real locust does. So this is an example of the potential symbolical meaning of Revelation. Historically, we now know of Islam had a great impact in the world after the rise of Mohammed.

Actually the 3 last trumpets -- the 3 woes-- are all related to the rise of Islam to bring judgment on the Christian Church(at the time was the RCC).

To me it makes sense when we study the historical account of what has happened in the past and the chronicle correlation of the book of Revelation. Because of this correlation, I think maybe the early Reformers had the right perspective before the influence of Darby and Scofield's work came to obscure Christendom.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/10/16 06:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle

I see the sea beast, the earth beast of Rev 13, the dragon of Rev 12, and the King of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 as all different entities. In the past, I did the same as you by linking many of these as the same. I have reasons to have changed my position.


Though you may think those entities may all be different identities, nevertheless, you may agree that they are the enemies of God's people. The dragon of Rev 12 gave "his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13:2) to the beast of Rev. 13.

The fallen star of Rev. 9 depicts Satan, the Devil. (See Luke 10:18). No where in the Scripture indicates as Mohammed is the "angel" (messenger) of the bottomless pit.

If we read the enlarged picture of the beast with seven heads in Rev. 17, we can trace him back to Rev. 13. The beast "ascend out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 17:8) is not Mohammed. This beast must carry the harlot of Rev. 17:3-5 according to the Scripture. And he enforces all the world to receive the mark of the beast. If he has that much power to control the world, I believe we can say he has "the key of the bottomless pit" who "ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 11:7) and he "shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them" (Rev. 11:7).

The "key" indicate a knowledge of teaching (Luke 11:52). "To him (the beast) was given the key of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1). So he teaches "doctrines of man" and "tradition" (Mark 7:7, 13) who "take away the key of knowledge...enter not in...them that were entering in ye hindered" (Luke 11:52).

The beast is emissary of the fallen angel. The beast is the king/angel of the bottomless pit according to Rev. 9:11.

Originally Posted By: Elle
You know the reformers once they had the printed Bible in their hand; saw and interpretated the book of revelation historically. Meaning the book of revelation is a historical account of events of Christianity in the Western world starting from the time of Pentecost after Jesus death to His 2nd coming with a brief glimpse of the Great White throne and the end.


The science of redemption is so broad, so deep, so high. Human history sinks into insignificance. Any attempts to approach the way of salvation with human history is as chaff. 

Would we measure the vast heavens with the span of our hand? Can we measure the eternal redemption of God with the history of mankind? No, it’s impossible. To try is hopeless. The glorious plan of salvation in the sanctuary is the template to interpreting the Seven Trumpets!

With that said, I do not think anyone without the knowledge of sanctuary can possible come to an understanding of the Seven trumpets message. Especially people who does not have understanding of Jesus' madiatorial ministry in the Most Holy Place in heaven now.

Originally Posted By: Elle
It is only when Darby and Scofield in the 1800s with their dispensationalism studies that the book of Revelation was interpretated futuristically.


The knowledge of the close of probation is in the Seven Trumpets of Revelation. In this sense I hold its significance as present and future idea. Did Darby and Scofield have had any comprehension of the knowledge of sanctuary and the close of probation?


Originally Posted By: Elle
For example, Rev 9, the 5th trumpet is about the rise of Mohammed who claim to have ascended to heaven, spoke to God, and returned on earth to give the people the Koran. His rise was in the year 612 just to place the 5th trumpet in context of history. Mohammed is the "angel" (messenger) who was given the "keys of the abyss"(authority and power) that brought smoke(darkness via his revelation from heaven) into the world that from that smoke "locust"(not literal locust but warriors see Joel 2:3-11) came out of it and devastated the land symbolically like real locust does. So this is an example of the potential symbolical meaning of Revelation. Historically, we now know of Islam had a great impact in the world after the rise of Mohammed.


In the Book of Revelation, smoke depicts the prayers of saints. Rev. 5:8 says, "golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints." The prayers must ascend to the throne of God which mixes with Jesus' sweet incense (See Rev. 8:3-5). However, the beast snatched the prayers of the people, which caused air and sun darken. Just like Absalom stole hearts of people from his father king David. (See 1 Sam15:6).

The seal of God in the forehead mentioned in Rev. 7:2, 3 and 9:4. These correlation give clues that the issue of the 5th trumpet is Sabbath. The angel of the bottomless pit attacks who does not have the seal of God by strong delusion, which described in Rev. 9:7-10. Their agenda is to enforce the mark of the beast, the counterfeit of God's true Sabbath. So "if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead...the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (Rev. 14:9, 10).

Reasonably, the seat of the beast receives the wrath of God at the fifth plague. (See Rev. 16:10, 11). Obviously, the imagery of the fifth plague reflects the warning of the fifth trumpet. Their kingdom became full of darkness because they interfered the prayers of people that caused air and sun darken. The seat of the beast "gnawed their tongues for pain" and "repented not of their deeds" (Rev. 16:10, 11). Their torments are described as "in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6) in the fifth trumpet.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/14/16 07:02 AM

Who gave the power to the locust-like-creature to strike man for torment?

“It was commanded …not hurt …those men…seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). God commanded this protection for His people.

However, God did not give the power to the locust-like-creatures to torment mankind. The beast that ascend out of the bottomless pit is symbolically described here as the locust-like-creatures. He received the power from the dragon: “unto them was given power” (Rev. 9:3). The fallen angel is the dragon, Satan, who gave the power to the beast to inflict torment upon mankind. “The dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority” (Rev. 13:2).

“To him” indicates the beast who “was given the key of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1) to torment mankind. No surprise to find that the seat of the beast receives the fifth plague. This correlation is a clue that the fifth trumpet is an announcement of the judgment of God to the wicked and warning to the church for the imminency of the close of probation.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/15/16 04:50 AM

Who is "the seven angels" in Rev. 8:2? When the article "the" is indicated we suppose to already know their identity from the Book of Revelation.

In the Rev. 7:1, four angels are introduced so it does not have "the four angels" until Rev. 9:14; "Loose the four angels".

The seven angels are mentioned nine times in Revelation. Can anyone say we do not know of "the seven angels" in Rev. 8:2? The seven angels are mentioned seven times out of the nine, which are associated with the vials of the seven last plague (Rev. 15:1, 6, 7, 8; 16:1; 17:1; 21:9).

These seven angels are a definite group who pour out the wrath of God when the probation closes. Jesus our High Priest in heaven cast down the ashes to the earth and finishes His mediatorial work. Until then, THE SEVEN ANGELS stood before the throne and watched judgment of God. One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" but never sounded the trumpets until the casting down of the ashes.

Rev. 15:1 introduces "seven angels" who have "the seven last plagues." Now we have identified who are THE SEVEN ANGELS from this verse. The rest of the times they are referred as "the seven angels".

The seven angels obey God's command to carry out the vials of the seven last plague (Rev. 15:6) when the probation closes at the casting down of ashes. They never sounded the seven trumpets; instead, they poured out the wrath of God.

We know of the seven trumpets message in Rev. 8-11. God's people are to sound the seven trumpets just as three angels' message has to be preached by God's people.
Same imageries are depicted with the three woes of the seven trumpets and the three angels' message by saying, "with loud voice", "flying in the midst of heaven" (Rev. 8:13; 14:6, 7). Irrefutably, people of God has to preach the Seven Trumpets before the close of the probation.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/15/16 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Karen Y

One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" but never sounded the trumpets until the casting down of the ashes.


Correction: One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" even after the casting down of the ashes: they never sounded the trumpets.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/21/16 06:00 AM

When Jesus our High Priest cast down ashes upon the earth, the seven angels "which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound" (Rev. 8:6).

The seven angels come "out of the temple, having the seven plagues" (Rev. 15:6) and there was "a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

Notice, the seven angels did not performed the sound of the seven trumpets. The great voice from the temple is the voice of God, commanding to the seven angels to pour out the seven plagues.

At the sixth trumpet's sound, there is a voice from the four horns of the golden altar, which is from the temple. So it is the voice God commanding to the four angels to loose their hold, which were "prepared ...to slay the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15).

The seven angels prepared themselves to sound and the four angels prepared to slay the third part of men on earth. These activities occur at the close of probation.

At the close of probation, there "were two hundred thousand thousand" horsemen from heaven—the armies who followed the white horse (Rev. 19:14)—slay the one third of mankind with plagues. This imagery depicts the close of probation and the seven last plagues poured out.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/29/16 04:25 PM

Three woes are the announcement of imminent approach of the close of probation. Its domain is spiritual realm.

In the first woe, there is a king who is the angel of the bottomless pit. Satan is never described as a king in Revelation. So the king whose name is Abbadon or Apollyon—means destroyer or destruction—is the leader of the spiritual world.

The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8) is Satan's agent or vicegerent. I perceive that the beast is the angel of the bottomless pit whose destructive activities are warned in the first woe.

The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit is preventing people to receive the seal of God. Instead, he enforces the mark of the beast. Apocalyptic annihilation of mankind will be performed by the power of the beast. But there is a command that "they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree (depict mankind); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

It takes time to destroy mankind by the means of "miracles" (Rev. 13:14, 19:20). The powers of the beast bites like "scorpions of the earth" (Rev. 9:3). It also takes time to seal God's people in the last days. The sealing time is way overdue! The approximate time, which is conditional, is given for five months or prophetic 150 years.

I am so convinced that the first woe is announcement of the close of probation. We realize this truth of the Seven Trumpets which all signify the imminent approaching of the close of probation. The end is nearly here! Let the sound of the trumpets ring!
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/30/16 04:53 PM

Hi Karen:

I agree with your statement:
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
We know of the seven trumpets message in Rev. 8-11. God's people are to sound the seven trumpets just as three angels' message has to be preached by God's people. Same imageries are depicted with the three woes of the seven trumpets and the three angels' message by saying, "with loud voice", "flying in the midst of heaven" (Rev. 8:13; 14:6, 7). Irrefutably, people of God has to preach the Seven Trumpets before the close of the probation.
This is an important point for the five wise virgins to take in and comprehend because when they wake up at midnight, this will be part of their message: "Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go you out to meet Him." It will blend and harmonize with the Loud Cry of the angel of Revelation 18 and all three angels of Revelation 14.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/30/16 05:48 PM

Thanks for sharing Karen this important message that you posted yesterday, July 29, post 181190. I've highlighted parts of what you wrote below but just before that I've quoted from Ellen White to place this message of the three woes in context. This is a current message but it will be giving in power by the five virgins in the near future during the time of God's destructive judgments. It's not your message or mine but the Lord's.

Quote:
There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who [now] have no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched, His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.--Letter 103, 1903. {LDE 182.2}


Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Three woes are the announcement of imminent approach of the close of probation. Its domain is spiritual realm.

In the first woe, there is a king who is the angel of the bottomless pit. Satan is never described as a king in Revelation. So the king whose name is Abbadon or Apollyon—means destroyer or destruction—is the leader of the spiritual world.

The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8) is Satan's agent or vicegerent. I perceive that the beast is the angel of the bottomless pit whose destructive activities are warned in the first woe.

The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit is preventing people to receive the seal of God. Instead, he enforces the mark of the beast. Apocalyptic annihilation of mankind will be performed by the power of the beast. But there is a command that "they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree (depict mankind); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4). . . .

I am so convinced that the first woe is announcement of the close of probation. We realize this truth of the Seven Trumpets which all signify the imminent approaching of the close of probation. The end is nearly here! Let the sound of the trumpets ring!

[b][/b]
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 07/31/16 06:05 AM

Hi Mark,
I'm praising God for your understanding about the seven trumpets.

The seven angels in Revelation have association exclusively with the seven trumpets—twice only— and the vials of the seven plagues—seven times.

The judgment of the seven trumpets is not recapitulation of the seven seals but has strong case for a link to the seven plagues, which clearly indicate of the imminent close of probation.

There are three factors that the seven angels' trumpet are not their job duty to sound:
1. the seven trumpets are given to the seven angels but they never sounded by them.
2. the parallelism with the three angels message—"angel flying in the midst of heaven" "with loud voice"—indicate it is the duty of the God's people.
3. "snapshot" of the High Priest, Jesus, assures His intercession ministry while the seven trumpets' message go out to the world.

I like your comment about the wise virgin story:
Quote:
This is an important point for the five wise virgins to take in and comprehend because when they wake up at midnight, this will be part of their message: "Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go you out to meet Him." It will blend and harmonize with the Loud Cry of the angel of Revelation 18 and all three angels of Revelation 14.


Blessings,

Karen
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/08/16 06:10 AM

Rev. 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit"

Notice the two statements in the verse. Even though they are sitting next to each other it is telling us two different identities:
1). A star fall from heaven
2). He who received the key of the bottomless pit

The dragon is the star fall from heaven and he was cast down to the earth. Jesus mentioned that Satan fell from heaven in Luke 10:18.

He who received the key of the bottomless pit is called a king and is also known as the angel of the bottomless pit. The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8), which indicate that the angel of the bottomless pit is the one and the same identity.

There is another clue that the beast is called a king in Rev. 17:9,10: "The seven heads are seven mountains" And there are "seven kings". Each head is a king. The seven mountains are the seven heads who carry the harlot of Rev. 17. These seven heads are the counterpart of the seven churches.

Thus the fifth trumpet sound is about the activities of the Papacy, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abandon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon, which means destruction and destroyer.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/12/16 05:36 AM

Individual destroyer is call "Abaddon". The beast that arose from the bottomless pit is Abaddon. There are few others who join the force of destruction which the Book of Revelation mentioned: the dragon and the false prophets.

The threefold union of spirit of devils— the dragon, the beast, and the false prophets—works miracles to deceive the whole world to destroy, thus each of the destroyers join hands together through ecumenical movement: this battle is called Armageddon.

The battle of the Armageddon is not something in the future. It is already here! The ecumenical movement is ever so visible now, which means you and I are so much involved in this battle. Consider, what Jesus have said in the midst of this sixth plague: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame" (Rev. 16:15).

The sixth trumpet announces its "woe" saying, "loose the four angels". The four angels are holding the winds of the earth now (Rev. 7:1-3) but when it gets to let go, the threefold destroyers will be punished by "the fire, smoke, and brimstone" (Rev. 9:17).

This is another clue that the seven trumpets link to the seven plagues. The threefold union will be punished with three weapons of plague:

The dragon is punished by fire.
The beast is punished by smoke.
The false prophets are punished by brimstone.

In the sixth trumpet, it says, "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these PLAGUES yet repented not of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20). Emphasis added.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/15/16 06:26 AM

In Rev. 8:13, the second woe is mentioned as an announcement because terrible woe is to come upon the "inhabiters of the earth".

The second woe is one and the same thing as the sixth trumpet. This is very solemn warning for the end-time generation. All the entire world population is involved in this destruction by "these plagues" (Rev. 9:20) of "the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone" (Rev. 9:18). And "the third part of men" will be "killed" (Rev. 9:18) by these plagues.

The point of time of the destruction is mentioned in Rev. 9:14, 15. It will happen when "the four angels" loose their hold, which is a definite point in time: "which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15).

The four angels were at the borderline of "the great river Euphrates" (Rev. 9:14), which indicates a final demarcation line. In Gen. 15:18, God promised Abram the land from "the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates." The last river that is mentioned in the garden of Eden was "the fourth river is Euphrates" (Gen. 2:14).

The sixth plague poured "upon the great river Euphrates" (Rev. 16:12). The sixth trumpet and the sixth plague parallel by the Euphrates river which indicate it has correlation each other and links in the symbolism. "The way of the kings of the east might be prepared" (Rev. 16:12) implies a duration of the plague falling which also parallels with "the four angels" prepared to loose their hold.

The three plagues of the fire, smoke and brimstone are aiming at the three evil spirits of devil, which they are mentioned in the sixth plague. They symbolize paganism, Papacy, and apostate protestants in their ecumenical union of religion. Their very work of unity ushers in the sixth plague. This is their suicidal act. They are bundling themselves to be thrown into the consuming fire of God at the end.

It is the sixth plague that the ecumenical movement is going strong. They are preparing for the "way of the kings of the east" to come: Jesus' Second Coming! At His Coming, the fire will destroy the pagan religion, the smoke will destroy the Papacy, and the brimstone will destroy the apostate protestant (false prophets).
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/22/16 05:59 AM

The first woe is the fifth trumpet, which indicates the beast power as the destroyer: Abbadon or Apollyon.

The second woe is the sixth trumpet, which announces the ecumenical movement, that is self-destructive activities by the wicked.

The first and the second woes are instigated by the beast power which was given to him by the dragon (See Rev. 13:2, 4).

After the first woe announced, the two more woes are to come. The events are not necessarily sequential, even though it records its sound consecutively. How else can it be known to us, unless one by one? Thus it says, "there come two woes more hereafter" (Rev. 9:12). Likewise the seven churches and the seven seals indicate the starting point as same by, "I will show thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). Notice the "hereafter".

The announcement of the three woes reveals the events at the close of probation.

The third woe announces that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (Rev. 11: 15). This is still the future event just as the other woes.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 08/30/16 05:45 AM

Isa. 34:16 "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

In the Book of Revelation, there are counterparts to subjects, segments or phrases, and words which provide more clear understanding when we match them together.

The second woe (sixth trumpet) indicates that the four angels are loosen at the river of the Euphrates.
The sixth plague indicates that the way of the kings of the east prepared when the plague poured upon the river of the Euphrates.

These events portray the same scene of the close of probation, which culminates in Second Coming of Jesus. The river of the Euphrates denotes the edge of the borderline.

At the point of release of the four angels, the slaughter army of the horsemen will kill men on earth with the fire, smoke, and brimstone. Notice that the horsemen are the same horsemen who follow the white horse man—the Faithful and True—, Jesus. (See Rev. 19:11-15).

The fire, smoke, and brimstone are called "plagues". So we should look for the counterparts within the seven last plagues, especially at the sixth plague.

There are three unclean spirits, spirits of devils, who gather the whole world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. These are preparing themselves to receive the "plagues" of the fire, smoke, and brimstone.

These three unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. The army of the horsemen is the counterpart who plagues these three unclean spirits. Notice that out of the mouth of the horsemen, the fire, smoke and brimstone come out to plague them.

Who has the power over fire, smoke, and brimstone to "smite the earth with all plagues"? Who gave the vials of the plague? God said that if anyone worship the beast and receive the mark of the beast, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels.(See Rev. 14:9-10). The 200 million horsemen of the holy angels are obeying the command of God to plague the wicked and to slain the third part of men at the close of probation.

The dragon which represent paganism will be plagued with the fire.
The beast which represent the Papacy will be plagued with the smoke.
The false prophet which represent the apostate protestants will be plagued with the brimstone.

Therefore the second woe—sixth trumpet— is announcement for the close of probation that the four angels would be loosing their hold very very soon. Then the harm or hurt will be happening: "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in there foreheads" (Rev. 7:3).
Posted By: Charity

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/03/16 02:33 AM

Karen, I may have asked you this before. You think all seven trumpets apply to the future, is that right? Do you think they will begin on the Feast of Trumpets?
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/06/16 04:03 AM

Hi Mark,

I think you have mentioned something about that before. I probably did not answered because I don’t know about that. The message of the Seven Trumpets would be more important to understand than when it might be happening: it is about the imminent close of probation!

I do agree with you that all the Seven Trumpets are applicable to the future because its messages are clearly announcement for the future events. For example, the fourth trumpet indicated that the sun, moon, and stars will be darkened one-third part of day. I know this has not happened yet. When God created the heavenly bodies, they were made to show signs of times and seasons according to Gen. 1:14. Therefore, the sun, moon, and stars darkened means, symbolically, to indicate that the heavenly bodies will show signs of the time.

Each of the four gospel writers—Matt., Mark, Luke and John—wrote about the climax or final signs of the time for the Second Coming of Jesus. Apostle John wrote in Rev. 6:12-14. Thus the fourth trumpet sound is for the announcement that Jesus is coming back soon which means the probation is coming to close in no time.

When would the fourth plague fall then? before the Second Coming? I would think so. The sun will “become black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth” (Rev. 6:12-13) at the Coming of Jesus. But the fourth plague, the sun is scorching heat, must exist before the close of probation. Do we have climate change issue now? global warming? iceberg melting? We must realize that the time is very short before the close of probation: before the signs of the heavenly bodies will manifest in its fulness.
Posted By: Karen Y

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered - 09/11/16 05:20 AM

To find the climax in a story we have to look in the middle especially in Hebrew logic. The seven trumpets have its decisive point at the middle by saying, "an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe" (Rev. 8:13). The next three trumpet sound has added intensity of announcement not to mention the prior trumpets also have the announcement of the message of devastation upon the earth, sea and earth dwellers.

The first trumpet announced "the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up" (Rev. 8:7). The trees and green grass depict mankind. Thus the devastation of human life is announced to "the inhabiters of the earth" (Rev. 8:13). The population of the earth is 7 billions now. The one third part is 2 billions. The world has not known this massive death yet, which means the first trumpet is still the future.

The second trumpet announced "the third part of the sea became blood" (Rev. 8:8). Deadly effect is described as "became blood". The sea pollution is immense trouble these days but the third part of the sea has not reached the point of toxic level yet. So I see the second trumpet is still in the future at the close of probation.

The third trumpet announced "the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters ... became wormwood" and "many men died of the waters" (Rev. 8:10-11). The drinking water pollution is announced which will destroy "many men". I don't know how many is many but it is "many" of "the inhabiters of the earth". Despite the fact that the water pollution causes many people sick to death these days, "many men died of the waters" has not arrived yet partly because of filtering water system exist. Thus the third trumpet is also announcement for the future at the close of probation.

The fourth trumpet is announcement of the signs of time by the heavenly bodies at the Second Coming of Jesus such as described by Apostles—Matt., Mark, Luke, and John.

The fifth trumpet is the first woe which announced severe torments such as men seek death but shall not find it; "shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6). I can not imagine what kind of torment might be so severe like this. Spiritual torment is worst than any physical torment. Rev. 9:4 indicated that there is command that the locust cannot harm those who have the seal of God in their foreheads. If the locust is able to distinguish who are the sealed and not allow to torment them, this torment must be talking about spiritual torment, which comes at the completion of the seal of God's people. At the fifth trumpet there is no death mentioned but severe torment. This devastation of spiritual torment is indeed "woe" to the "inhabiters of the earth" whi