Daniel 9 and the 144,000

In 1989 I had a dream.  Two holy men in heaven were talking discussing the end of the seventy weeks and one said to the other that at the end of that period everlasting righteousness could have been established in Israel if they had accepted the Messiah.  It wasn't until recently that it occurred to me that this implies that the prophecy of Daniel 9 will eventually be fulfilled at the sealing of spiritual Israel. 

Some expositors such as George Whitfield have held that Christ established the everlasting righteousness of Daniel 9 at the cross, and while this is a glorious truth, it is only part of it. The purpose of the cross is to bring everlasting righteousness to God's people, spiritual Israel. That only happens when the church is fully settled into the truth, perfected and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It occurs first in the sealing of the 144,000 and then in the great multitude. This is where the everlasting righteousness spoken of in Daniel 9 is fully established.

We are near the fulfillment of Rev 7 but Rev 7 is the fulfillment of Daniel 9. One evidence of this is that there is no historic fulfillment of the seven and sixty two weeks. If all of the particulars of a prophecy haven't been fulfilled, we are to look to the future for a complete fulfillment.

But there is potentially greater evidence that could help confirm or disprove my thesis. The seventieth seven, that is, the 70th Jubilee expires this spring which suggests liberation for the church but judgment for the world. If my calculations are correct I only have a couple of months to see more about whether I'm on the right track.  

Regarding time setting, I'm not saying anything must happen this spring. I'm saying it could and if it does, we'll have a better picture of where we stand prophetically.

The seventy weeks.
Daniel 24. "Seventy weeks are determined for your people
and for your holy city...

These seventy weeks are divided into three parts:

7 weeks (49 years) that begin with the command and depict difficult times in which the work to rebuilt staggered along to completion.
457 - 408 B.C.

62 weeks (434 years) Judah's extended probationary time from the rebuilt nation beginning in 408 BC to the anointing at baptism of the Messiah in 27 AD.

1 week (7 years) The years Christ came to confirm the covenant with His people. This final week began in 27 AD at Christ's baptism and ended in 34 AD when Judah as a nation rejected Christ and started a heavy persecution against Christ's followers (signified by the stoning of Stephen).






The 70 weeks began at the command --

Daniel 9: 25 reads "From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem. . .the street shall be built again and the walls, even in troublous times.

457 BC

Ezra received this decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to self government. Up till 457 BC the leaders in Judea were no more than county commissioners. They could look after local problems but they did not have judicial or executive authority. Now they did! They could set up their own magistrates and judges to carry out their laws. Now they were a sovereign city/state nation. This is why this decree is so important to the reestablishment of Jerusalem!

The returned captives start to rebuild their city in earnest -- but trouble descends and pretty much stops the work.

Their neighboring nations (Samaritans) wrote to Artaxerxes that Israel should not be allowed to rebuild, "the rebellious city, finishing its walls and repairing the foundations" because (the adversaries said) Israel would rise in rebellion."

Since some of Persia's western territories were causing trouble, Artazerxes complied with the Samaritans and order the building of Jerusalem to cease until further notice.

The kings reply was great victory for the Samaritans who went "immediately to the Jews in Jerusalem and compelled them by force to stop" (Ezra 4:23) While they were about it, they apparently knocked down the rebuilt sections of the wall, and burned several gates. (Neh.1:3)

Ten years go by with no work being done.

The Nehemiah appears 13 years after Ezra.
Nehemiah's first period in Jerusalem 445–433 BC saw the walls built and other improvements. Nehemiah returns to Persia for awhile, then comes back to Jerusalem to continue his work. He is governor of Judea until 408, B.C.

This marks the end of the 7 weeks or 49 years of troublous rebuilding of the city/state of Jerusalem.


So we have the
7 weeks (49 years) of Ezra/Nehemiah era of rebuilding the city state of Jerusalem in troublous times. 457 - 408

These weeks all fulfilled.

Psa 122:1 A Song of degrees of David. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This last verse below, Zech 2:13, is when the command to restore and build Jerusalem is finally fulfilled. When God sees the plight of His people, for His own name He will rise up out of His holy habitation.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Zec 2:1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.
Zec 2:2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.
Zec 2:3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him,
Zec 2:4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
Zec 2:9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

“Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times” (Daniel 9:25). When the alternate meanings of Gabriel’s words from the original language are studied, an endtime meaning that differs from what the translators understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed and opened repeats and enlarges the prophecy: From studying it in Strong's...

The word translated restore also means to turn back (from God), apostatize; build is to be built up like a childless wife becoming the mother of a family through the children of a concubine; Jerusalem is literally teaching of peace; and messiah also means anointed; prince is ruler. (Jesus was the Anointed Prince, but in the endtime Antichrist is anointed— prince of the covenant.) Street is from the root enlarged. Wall is from a word that means: decision and moat; wall is past participle of decree. For the endtime, Gabriel is saying…

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to apostatize by the mother to the children teaching peace unto the anointing of the ruler shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks. This is enlarged: from the mother’s decree to the children, the time of anguish shall come again (Daniel 9:25, endtime meaning).

The mother church is the Roman Catholic Church because she is the mother of the Protestant churches that left her. The Roman Church’s decree teaching peace was Dies Domini (the Lord’s Day). It links Sunday to peace in sections 1, 18, 26, 33, 44, 52, 67, & 73. Dies Domini was issued on May 31, 1998 (the 6th of Sivan on the Hebrew calendar[http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/?year=1998&v=1&month=x&yt=G&nh=on&nx=on&vis=0&d=on&c=off]):

“On the 6th Sivan…after the Exodus, G-d revealed Himself on Mount Sinai” and gave the Ten Commandments.[www.chabad.org/calendar/view/day_cdo/aid/282243/jewish/Torah-Given.htm] On the anniversary of God giving the Ten Commandments, John-Paul II’s decree voided the Sabbath Commandment…

“Sunday: ‘This is the day which the Lord has made: let us rejoice and be glad in it’ (Ps 118:24)… And it echoes the joy — at first uncertain and then overwhelming — which the Apostles experienced on the evening of that same day, when they were visited by the Risen Jesus and received the gift of his peace and of his Spirit (cf. John 20:19-23).”

Pope John-Paul II titles chapter III: “The Eucharistic Assembly: Heart of Sunday.” In it, he called for ALL the FAITHFUL to join in the Eucharist Assembly on Sunday:

“As the day on which man is at peace with God, with himself and with others, Sunday becomes…an inviolable law of concord and love… It is crucially important that all the faithful should be convinced that they cannot live their faith or share fully in the life of the Christian community unless they take part regularly in the Sunday Eucharistic assembly.”[APOSTOLIC LETTER, 31 May 1998. Sections 1, 67, & 81 https://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2dies.htm]

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

According to Ellen White, this passage above applies especially to God's people at the end, spiritual Jerusalem. God will save and cleanse Jerusalem, the daughter of Zion, His beautiful bride. He will restore the fortunes of Zion and build her walls. Ps. 122.

Zec 8:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.
Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Zec 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
Zec 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Here's another prophecy related to Daniel 9 about Jerusalem that has also never been fulfilled. It is getting a lot of attention in Evangelical circles lately because they are concerned about the resurgence of antisemitism. And while it has an application to the Jews this applies especially to spiritual Israel, the church, Jew and Gentile.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

The walls of spiritual Jerusalem, a cloud of protection by day and a pillar of fire by night, lighting the way through the darkness, will once again surround the city of God in the final days of earth's history.

(bold emphasis mine)

Please explain.

At what time do you believe this prophecy will be fulfilled and how?

(bold emphasis mine)

By "seventieth seven" do you mean the seventieth week of Daniel 9? If so, that has been completely fulfilled already. Now, there may a dual meaning or secondary meaning if you would please explain that in more detail.

Zechariah 12 depicts the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy of the abomination of desolation that Christ has forewarned us we need to study and understand. The abomination of desolation that stands in the Holy Place is explained in Revelation 13, the mark of the beast. Here in Zechariah 12 that abomination is depicted as the final siege of God's people.

There is a 19th century ballad, The Holy City one of my favorites that summarizes the high points of Jerusalem's history and the drama of the final siege that is just before us. The scene where "the streets no longer rang" refers not only to the crucifixion but to this final siege IMO.

Last night I lay a-sleeping
I dreamed a dream so fair,
I stood in old Jerusalem
Beside the temple there.

I heard the children singing,
And ever as they sang,
I thought the voice of angels
From heaven in answer rang
I thought the voice of angels
From heaven in answer rang.

Jerusalem! Jerusalem!
Lift up your gates and sing,
Hosanna in the highest!
Hosanna to your King!

And then I thought my dream was changed,
The streets no longer rang,
Hushed were the glad Hosannas
The little children sang.

The sun grew dark with mystery,
The morn was cold and chill,
As the shadow of a cross arose
Upon a lonely hill.

Jerusalem! Jerusalem!
Hark! How the angels sing,
Hosanna in the highest!
Hosanna to your King!

And once again the scene was changed;
New earth there seemed to be;
I saw the Holy City
Beside the crystal sea.

The light of God was on it's streets,
The gates were open wide,
And all who might enter,
And no one was denied.

No need of moon or stars by night,
Or sun to shine by day;
It was the new Jerusalem
That would not pass away.

Jerusalem! Jerusalem!
Sing for the night is o'er!
Hosanna in the highest!
Hosanna for evermore!

Yes, a dual meaning is what we can look for since all aspects of this prophecy haven't yet been fulfilled. The prophecy says "seventy sevens" in the original and so means a group of seven such as a week, a Sabbatical or a Jubilee. Protestant expositors have known for centuries that the weeks actually represent years. What is less known is that they also represent Sabbaticals and if they are taken in that way the result is exactly the same as using the day-year principle but with the added advantage that there is no conversion of time - the prophecy means exactly what it says without taking a day for year because a Sabbatical is seven years. And taking the seven to mean Sabbaticals also is more in keeping with the divinely intended meaning because it confirms the synchronization of the Sabbaticals of Lev 25 with sacred history.

Modern Jews affirm that the Sabbatical cycle, like the weekly cycle, is still intact from antiquity - that the Jews, ancient and modern, have never lost track of it. Significantly, although they deny Jesus Christ as the Messiah, their own reckoning of the Sabbaticals is an exact fit with Daniel 9 so that 34AD was the final Sabbatical of the 70 which of course confirms that Christ was crucified exactly in the middle of the last Sabbatical cycle in 31AD.

However, the same Jews confess that the Jubilee count was lost after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. So if we reapply the prophecy in terms of Jubilees to account for the unfulfilled portions, where do we begin?

The way I've calculated it is, I start with the fact that the seventy sevens do synchronize with the sacred history of Israel. The Jubilee year is the 50th year which follows the seventh Sabbatical, the 49th year. So the first test of whether any year is a Jubilee is whether it follows a Sabbatical. For example 35AD could be a Jubilee since it follows a known Sabbatical. And if 34AD is a Sabbatical, 2014-5 is also one and therefore 2015-16 could be a Jubilee as well.

But the only way to know which of the post Sabbatical years is a true Jubilee is to reconstruct the chronology of the OT back to when Israel entered the promised land because this is when God through Moses instructed the Hebrews to begin the Jubilee count. Lev 25.

In a nut shell, I've reviewed OT chronology comparing it especially with Ezekiel 4 which bridges the obscure co-regencies of the kings of Israel and IMO gives us a firm date for the first day of occupation of the promised land, day one when the Jubilee count began, Nissan 10, 3,431 years ago. Josh 4:19.

I admit that there are some things that cause me to question the accuracy of my calculations and how they should be applied so caution is good. We'll have a better picture not many weeks from now if I'm on the right track.

(bold emphasis mine)

What hasn't yet been fulfilled from the 490 years prophecy in Daniel 9?

I cover that in my first post of the thread. But briefly, everlasting righteousness hasn't yet been established in spiritual Israel and the division of the seven and sixty two weeks has no historic fulfillment. According to the Jews, the second temple was 46 years in building rather than 49 and the anointed one did not come at that time.

Malachi 3 is the fulfillment of this part of Daniel 9 IMO. The overwhelming surprise that EG White speaks of is when Christ suddenly comes to His temple at the judgment of the living. This is what divides the 69 weeks into two segments of seven and sixty two.

I just read this. I think your deduction is quite insightful Mark despite I don't agree with several of your statement..But that's not a problem with me. Overall I agree with the basic of the Revelation you have received and I think it is guiding your thoughts in the right direction.

Just a quick comment if I may ... in my view the end of the 70th week ended at the cross. (we have to review our 70 weeks interpretation by putting aside at the door our 1844 dissappointement idol. For those that are capable, I would recommend reading Dr. Stephen Jones Daniel's Seventy Weeks study of it. Up to now I haven't perceived any flaws in it.) .... and I believe that the cross was a major event ( despite the Jews or others doesn't regard it as such).
I don't believe in this type of interpretation --- that last week of the 70 weeks is only fulfilled before the crowning of the 144k. Non! I believe the whole cycle of the 70 weeks finish at the cross. That was the end of the primary fulfillment of Dan 9. However, the 70 weeks prophecy can become a TYPE that the cycle of events that primarily revolved around Christ at His 1st coming -- is repeated at the end time but this time the players is different and it revolves around the 144K(who are the body of Christ... in essence represents Christ Corporately). So I do agree with your insight that there are some sort of repeat of events with the 144K and based on the Type Christ has established.


I do agree with you that the 144K are first (aka the first fruits of the harvest according to the feasts laws) and the great multitude (the corrupt believers and the remaining of the world) later(after the 2nd resurrection) that represents the other two harvests in the Feasts cycle.

Mark, I believe that we need to view Jesus 1st & 2nd coming in perspective of the Feasts described in the law and elsewhere in scriptures. Jesus 1st coming only fulfilled the Passover Feast (and the start of Pentecost 50days later).

Jesus 2nd coming [the 144k(the body of Jesus) + Jesus (the head)] will be fulfilling the Fall Feast (aka Tabernacle Feasts).

So the two comings has to be understood in the context of the spiritual meaning of these two feasts.

The cleansing of the temple was represented by two Doves in Lev14 and two Goats in Lev 16.

The first Dove & goat had to die. The 2nd dove was dipped in the blood of the first dove, which represents that the work of the 2nd dove is based on the work of the first. It takes two doves Not ONE to cleanse the temple which is our own body that is afflicted with "Leprosy" (sin) which is a slow death.

Also consider that their were two daily sacrifices that can be view as representing Jesus two comings. The morning sacrifice represents Christ 1st coming that occur in the spring feasts. And the evening represents the 2nd coming that occurs in the fall feasts.

The main point here, is that it requires two doves and two goats to clean the temple which represents Christ two comings. We know for a fact that Christ completed His first work -- which is a "death" work which declares all righteous based on Christ redemption right and based on His ability to bring about this righteousness into our hearts by writing His Laws there as vowed in Jer 33 and in many other places in scriptures.

And we know that Christ 2nd coming hasn't come yet.... right? So the 2nd work of Christ to cleanse the temple hasn't started nor have been fulfilled yet.

His second coming is to do some sort of "live work" where in the type we have the dove is "released in the field" by which Jesus explained the meaning of the symbol by saying "the field is the world".

The "live work" is yet to be seen to be fulfilled and according to what I read from the type in the law, in Ezekiel temple prophecies,and other scriptures....the work of Christ at His 2nd coming is perform thru the 144 K. They will do greater work that Christ did at His first coming. That's my understanding of what Lev 14, Lev 16, Daniel 9, Revelation 19 & 20, and other scriptures.

Elle, I've been wondering why the daily sacrifice goes from morning and evening in the Mosaic to just morning in Ezekiel's for a long time. Maybe it's because in Ezekiel's temple the 144k are already cleansed: The only cleansing left is for the multitude so only a morning sacrifice is offered. Solemn but joyful thought. I think we're near that time. Maranatha.

Ellen White says the two cleansings of the temple by Christ are symbolic of the double cleansing of the end-time church. In her statement as I recall it, she equates the first cleansing with the second angel's message and the second cleansing with the third.

If we tie that in with the two temples, the Mosaic and Ezekiel's, it is the second angel's message that calls spiritual Israel out of Babylon. Once they are out of Babylon, their atonement is complete. They are not beyond sinning but they are cleansed by the blood of Christ so there is a change in the heavenly service as illustrated in Ezekiel's temple where there is only one daily offering. It is these twelve tribes who then give the final message, the third one, in the power of the latter rain. That is why, in Rev 14 the 144k are pictured before the three angels. These messages are brought to their climax at the loud cry of the third angel by the 144k.

Yes, we've talked about this before but not with this perspective in mind.

I like the way you structured your statement underlined. Your statement made me think about Jacob after he just received the name Israel(God rules) after overcoming.

When Jacob left Laban, he made 3 stops(1st encampment represented Feast ofTrumpet, the 2nd=Day of Atonement, and the 3rd = Tabernacle) that the names of the encampment and the event that occurred there reveal some puzzle pieces of the spiritual meaning of the Fall Feasts that points forward to Jesus 2nd coming.

There are other stories in scriptures as such that also reveal other puzzle pieces about these fall feasts. It is by collecting all of these feasts stories and trying to see the Lord's meanings attached to it described in these stories, events, name, numbers,.... that we can come to see a picture forming from these several Biblical pieces.

So in just focusing on Jacob's the 3rd encampment which is AFTER the day of Atonement that reveal some info about Tabernacle (when the 144K will received their immortal & righteous robe). That 3rd encampment was call "Sukkoth" (which means tents in plural form) ... however when you read the story Jacob didn't built for himself a sukka(singular form of tent) but instead build himself a house that required a foundation. It was his sheep and other livestocks that lived in these sukkoths that he build -- not him.

In the law type, the Lord made Israel live in Sukkoth (tents) right from the day they left Egypt and got circumcized and got baptized thru the red sea. Meaning they lived in tents during the Passover and Pentecost maturity level of faith. Only those that enter the promise land(== Tabernacle) were allowed to built a house and live in it.

So we see this pattern repeated in Jacob story. While Jacob (an overcomer representing the 144K Type) build himself a house(=Tabernacle) when he entered Canaan, the remaining of the Lord's "sheeps" and "goats" that are still in the "Passover" and "Pentecost" level of faith still needs to live in sukkoths(tents) until they enter themselves the promise land (== Tabernacle) at God's next appointed time.

I don't know if you can follow what I'm saying, but I'm agreeing with your impression that I have underlined. So if our impression is correct that the morning sacrifice points to the Spring Feasts and the Evening sacrifice points to the Fall Feasts.... Yeah... I think your statement fits the pattern layed in scripture.

The sixty and two weeks in verse 26 is the last part of the 69 weeks in verse 25. The righteousness of Christ fulfilled on the earth and His opening the Heavenly Sanctuary to all mankind fulfills the everlasting righteousness of Christ in verse 24. So, all has been fulfilled in the seventy weeks or 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9.

Ok...let's look into that a little.

1st angel message == would be equivalent to the Passover message(since you applied the blood of Jesus on your heart altar in your body temple which is an equivalence of worshiping Jesus the Creator=1st Angel message)

2nd angel message == Pentecost message (since we are to get out of the confusion of Babylon that only can be accomplish via the personal teaching of the Holy Spirit who is the only ONE that can tell you what is truth and what is not).

3rd angel message == Tabernacle message

So having the two cleansing at Passover & Pentecost, this is NOT according to the Type of the two Doves that I was saying representing the 1st coming that Christ fulfilled the spring feasts (==Passover & Pentecost) and at His 2nd coming Christ fulfills the fall feasts (== Tabernacle).

But it doesn't mean that the 1st & 2nd angel message doesn't match other cleansing laws found in the books of Moses. One that came to mind .... is the law of cleansing after child birth. For a female double cleansing is required versus a male a single cleansing is required. I believe these laws are as prophetic as any other laws. That would be interesting to look at for the 2nd coming of Christ is about birthing the body of Christ who are the 144K -- the overcomers-- the high Priests family -- the rulers with Christ.


I wouldn't make such association. Mixing these two temples with the Feasts....they are not the same. The feasts is about the 3 level of spiritual growth; whereas the temple represents the body of an individual or the corporate group.


I don't know if we can say that their atonement is complete. We know that the atonement is only a covering. Something to think about... Right now I don't know.

I know this far ... once we get out of Pentecost, we enter Tabernacle. And then like Jacob who entered Tabernacle after his struggle with the Angel...wasn't changed.... he had to wait like Abraham, David and all other overcomers for the 1st resurrection for really entering Tabernacle is a Corporate experience... So even yu have entered Tabernacle individually, all individuals have to wait for the 1st corporate fulfillment of Tabernacle. Notice I supersize 1st, because their are 3 harvest in the law -- thus 3 corporate tabernacle experiences.....

and when the 1st group, the 144k, does enter Tabernacle at Jesus 2nd coming..... they[we] are responsible to shepherd--care for the sheep and the goats of the Lord. Like Jacob who entered Tabernacle, had to build sukkoths for the Lords sheeps & goats that was put under his charge.

My impression, it is only at the end of Jubilee will everyone (including the 144k) truly will be all released despite they have gotten their immortal robes before all others. Those that enter Tabernacle (the 144k) first .... have no personal possession whatsover -- the law says "the Lord is their possession".... meaning the business of the Lord is now their ONLY possession and business.


I do agree that it will be via the 144k that the latter rain will come. But keep in mind that it requires two Doves to cleanse the world's body temple.... that represents the two cleansing work of Christ in His 1st coming and 2nd coming. Christ 2nd coming only starts happening when the 144K comes ....

And how long do you think this 2nd "live" cleansing work will last? Since only one Jubilee week-thousand year has passed (6000 years + the first Millenium rest that we are about to enter).... I expect this 2nd "live" cleansing work will last another 6 weeks-thousand years which is another 6 x 7000 = 42000 years after the Millennium so we can arrive to the Great Jubilee of end time...when all debts are finally cancelled whether fully paid or not and everyone is restored back to their original estate.

Jerusalem fell in 605 BC







From the 605 fall of Jerusalem, the doubling of the 70-years (140-years) ended in 465, which was Artaxerxes ascension year. His first year began the next year (464 BC).



2300 days prophetically speaking using a 360 day/year are
6 years
4 months
20 days



6 years had past it was the 7th year of King Artaxerxes
4 months and 20 days had ended...it was the 5th month of Artaxerxes

From the fall of 605 Jerusalem 70 years had ended, they had been doubled to 140 years that had ended, and when 2300 literal days were ended Ezra was in Jerusalem in time for the cleansing of the newly rebuilt Temple...the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month, [Leviticus 16:29-34.]





The literal 2300 days ended in 457 BC
From 457 BC, the 2300 years ended in 1843
From 457 BC, the 2300 years ended a second time in 1844
The 2300 years ended twice
If either date 1843 or 1844 is rejected the tarrying time that fulfilled prophecy is made void



The cleansing of the Sanctuary BEGAN in 1844. The Sanctuary will not be cleansed until Jesus states “It is done” (Revelation 21:6)




the 2300 years ended in 1844 but the 2300 day prophecy will not end until the Sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus states "it is done"





Jesus is yet to declare that the Sanctuary has been cleansed

OK, let's consider that HC. Where do you think we stand now and why?

Two tracks leading away from the foundational truths of Adventism.
1. Time setting, trying to rework the time lines to predict end time events.
2. Following the great Israel deception that will sweep the world.



The Song
The Holy City
I have sung that song on numerous occasions, even made a power point of pictures to go along as the words are sung.

The song is NOT about the city so much as it is about our Savior.

The first verse --
The Setting is "old Jerusalem" -- picture the triumphal entry.
Why are the children singing and why do the angels join the song? It's because the promised Messiah has come to Old Jerusalem. He came --

BUT

Second verse
Messiah is rejected
Hushed are the glad Hosannas as the shadow of the cross arose upon a lonely hill.

Third verse
we no longer see Old Jerusalem -- old Jerusalem is no longer part of Messiah's story.
This is a picture of the NEW EARTH!
Now it's the "NEW JERUSALEM" beside the tideless sea!
Picture Jesus standing at the wide open pearly gates, welcoming the redeemed. This city will never pass away, for it is the New Jerusalem from heaven.

Old Jerusalem is the deceiver's trump card.
He will make it appear old Jerusalem is part of salvation's end-time program, but it is not. The great deceiver has many deceived into this program. This deceptive teaching has permeated just the core of Christian prophetic thinking! And I tremble to see these things pushed forward as truth on a forum for Adventists.

A supposed Messiah will probably appear and bring the promise of peace to that battered old city, but it won' be our Savior. People will cry out, "Christ has come, Christ has come" Things are ingeniously being shaped to use old Jerusalem as a powerful, deceptive counterfeit for the false prophet of Revelation to deceive the world, when scripture plainly tells us we are to look to the New Jerusalem now, not old Jerusalem

Several of you believe in dreams --
A vivid dream --

The world is in turmoil and great distress, but over in Palestine there is a light. A huge, shiny gate stands open and all the people are eagerly saying "come, let's go to the light, there we will find peace and safety." They joyfully follow charismatic leaders and head for the gate. Some on the sidelines raise their voice and cry, "No, it's a deception" but these are ridiculed, or worse, beaten.
Time lapse -- now people are streaming out of the gate, they are downcast, walking in a lifeless stupor, all joy and hope has disappeared from their faces, that gate is black and dark like a deadly tomb.

When the Jewish nation as a nation rejected the Messiah back in 34 AD, the prophecies outlining what COULD of been had they accepted the Messiah, were not and will not be fulfilled in old Jerusalem. They will meet a more perfect fulfillment, in part in the church, and complete in the New Jerusalem.

I can only urge you -- don't follow the "false prophet" which our understanding of Revelation identifies as the popular churches in the USA. Their interpretation of prophecy is deadly

Remember:
Revelation 19:20 And the beast (Papal power) was taken, and with him the false prophet ( prophet interpretation of USA Christians) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image..

The judgment hour began 22 October 1844 after the tarrying time ended (1843-1844).

How long is the judgment hour?



Thus the times in Revelation are definite, not mystical and unintelligible, and God would have us to understand them.

Under some circumstances, a prophetic day can depict a year (cf Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:6), and the reverse must also be true since Daniel wrote of the end of the 7 years in Daniel 4 as if they were the end of the days. In the big picture, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8, cf Psalm 90:4). Thus from Daniel 4, it can be understood that Satan’s insane rebellion against God and the sin problem (like the one that Daniel advised the king of Babylon to correct) is limited to 7,000 years.



Josiah Litch deciphered Revelation 9’s time prophecy by using a 24-hour day. Likewise, the duration of the Judgment Hours for the dead and the living are explained using a 12-hour day (3. A twelfth part of the day-time, an hour).

1000 years / 12 (hours) = 83 years 4 months

The 22 October 1844 Judgment Hour of the DEAD ended 83 years 4 months later on 22 February 1928.

During this hour the papacy was dead. It had received the DEADLY WOUND in 1798 so it was dead at the beginning of the Judgment Hour (22 October 1844). And it remained dead through the entire Judgment Hour of the DEAD that ended 22 February 1928. When the Judgment Hour of the DEAD ended there was a tarrying time in which Mussolini healed papal Babylon’s deadly wound. By mid-summer of 1929, papal Babylon was alive again!

At the appointed time, the 1929 Day of Atonement (14 October 1929) the papacy was now alive and the Judgment Hour of the LIVING BEGAN. It continued 83 years 4 months to 14 February 2013.



The Judgment Hour of the living beast began 14 October 1929 after the seven heads (the popes became kings and received their kingdom) Popes Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI. The kings of the prophetic earth (America) that have committed fornication with the beast were the ten horns the American Presidents from Truman (the papacy put him in office) through Bill Clinton. The Judgment Hour of the living beast ended on 14 February 2013.

Days later Pope Benedict resigned at the end of his "Short time" which was less than 7 years (the number of completeness). He finished John-Paul II's last year thru 28 March 2006 and then began his solo reign 29 March 2006 thru 28 February 2013... 1 month and 1 day short of 7 years.

Thus the cases of the dead and living have been decided.



Since the HOUR allotted to judge the dead and the living have ended should we not be at the end of probation?

As someone who places the trumpets and seals and most of Revelation in the future, I wonder sometimes if some aspects of prophecy aren't being fulfilled now or in the recent past without generally being recognized. For example, has the first seal already been broken without our being aware of it? So I'm open to the kinds of things you raise above. Thanks for sharing HC. I'm just not persuaded.

I've not been called to persuade anyone. That is the Holy Spirit's office. I just share my studies. Regarding revelation:

I've thought for years that Ellen White knew much more than what she shared.

Regarding the bolded part above, she's referring to the Investigative Judgment no doubt but I think other things as well. What those are is hard to say.

His Child,

If you think you can know when probation has closed, you are sadly self-deceived. Matthew 24:36 is clear. So is Mark 13:32. Not even our angels will know. Of all end-time events, that is the one most obscure to us. The very fact you are speculating in regards to it having already closed reveals you have crossed a line in terms of time-setting and proper Biblical interpretation.

Because none of us can know when probation has closed, I do not attempt to say either that it has or that it hasn't. But I will say you are highly presumptuous to seek to answer that question.

Here's what I know: The Gospel Commission has yet to be fulfilled. If you want Jesus to come sooner, best get yourself into a field of missionary service to help complete that. Jesus asks His disciples to "Go" and make disciples of all nations. We still have unreached people groups. Jesus will NOT be coming in the clouds of glory this month, or next month either, and probably not this year or the next, or the next. Too much remains to be finished. However, I will not say we still have 20 years--Mrs. White says we should not do so. She says we need to plan and work as if we have more time, but be always ready for His appearing. It is our probation that could close at any moment. None of us knows when.

When the seven last plagues start falling and/or we hear the announcement of the day and hour of Christ's coming, we will know that probation has closed for everyone. We will never know when our individual probations have closed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Amen, Green


Probation has not ended.
There is still time and much work to be done in reaching people for Christ!
Let none sit back thinking "it's over" we can take our ease.

Fact is -- the reason earth continues is because people are more interested in speculating on things not revealed, rather than sharing the three angels messages with the world.




Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

HC, you surprised me as well with that statement re the close of probation. You may want to revisit that issue more carefully.

The other day you stated that you're not trying to persuade anyone, only presenting your study results; that only the Holy Spirit can convince and convict. I agree. I like your open mindedness and that you think out of the box - that's refreshing. But when it comes to scripture we need to handle it carefully and vet our interpretations carefully and prayerfully with all of the inspired sources, following the principle that new light will build on old establish light, that "new light" is often really old light that is rediscovered, and testing your ideas with people of experience before running with an idea and publishing it broadcast. It will enhance your credibility rather than detract from it if you couch you posts tentatively as a learner asking your brothers and sisters for their critique of your thoughts. In doing this you're not bending your mind to another individual. At the end of the discussion you'll walk away in a better position to decide if your idea is scriptural even if you still don't agree with anyone else.

I try to follow those rules myself and if and where I haven't I apologize. At times I think I've asserted new ideas too positively before thoroughly vetting them.

Saints, I opened this discussion with these thoughts:
The New Year on the sacred calendar starts soon so it will only be a matter of a few day or weeks to see if I'm on the right track. In the mean time it is always appropriate to humble ourselves before God like Daniel, to confess our sins and the sins of the church and to pray for the honor of God that His kingdom would come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. How poorly have we reflected the glory of God. But God still loves us.

I may have replied to the "seven and sixty-two week" statement before. But, the sixty-nine weeks represent 483 years that were fulfilled at 27 A.D.. The ending was marked at the baptism of Jesus.

Green,

The problem is not with self-deception or with what I said but by the supposed context in which it is understood by the hearers.



Green, Thank you for Your comments.

When studying to give reply I saw in the Spirit of Prophecy the judgment in Ezekiel. The people were judged. The Angel sealed God's people and the destroying angels followed. Thus the judgment ended before the sealing or the sealing angel would not have know who to seal.

There is a difference between the time allotted for the Investigative Judgment and the end of probation.

Christian regards
His child

Mark,

I appreciate the thoughtful counsel.

BUT Why did I make such a statement?

The investigative judgment began 22 October 1844 when the Hour of His Judgment came (cf Revelation 14).



Since the teachings of Revelation are definite and not mystical and unintelligible, that has to be true of the times in Revelation.

Thus an hour is a specific length of time.

An HOUR (cf Strong):
1) A certain definite time
2) The daytime
3) A twelfth part of the day-time, an hour
4) Any definite time, point of time, moment

Definition #1 & #3 help us to identify the length of time in the Judgment Hour that is not mystical and unintelligible in Revelation 14.

The Jewish principle is called Sha’ah Zemanit:
“Proportional hour… Total daylight hours divided by 12.”
(http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/134527/jewish/About-Zmanim.htm)

Jesus referred to it when He asked, “Are there not twelve hours in the day?” (John 11:9). The length of an hour being determined by the length of the day.

Peter and David tell how long a day is.

“One day is with the Lord as a thousand years” (2 Peter 3:8; cf Psalm 90:4).

Since Jesus defined an hour as 1/12th of a day and His disciple follows up that we should not be IGNORANT to define how long a day is, a Judgment Hour (1/12th of a 1,000 year/day) is 83 years and 4 months.

22 October 1844 + 83 years and 4 months ends 22 February 1928.

What was the condition of fallen Babylon (the dead papacy) from 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928? It was dead. It had received its deadly wound in February 1798 and it had not been healed by 1928.

February 1929 Mussolini began healing the deadly wound by restoring the secular kingdom to the pope. By June 1929, phase 3 of the restoration was completed.

When did the judgment of the dead begin? On the Day of Atonement!

After papal Babylon's wound was healed by Mussolini in mid-1929 when could the Judgment Hour of the living begin? On the Day of Atonement in 1929, which fell on 14 October 1929.

The time allotted for the Judgment Hour of the Living was from 14 October 1929 + 83 years and 4 months which ended 14 February 2013.

Pope Pius XI received the healing of the deadly wound to restore a kingdom the the popes.



Revelation 17 says 5 kings were fallen:
Pius XI
Pius XII
JOHN XXIII
PAUL VI
JOHN-PAUL I

One is JOHN-PAUL II

and one is to come that reigns for a short space BENEDICT XVI

The short space is not defined in Scripture but the spirit of prophecy states:





The condition of the church was that Benedict XVI was allotted a short space which was less than 7-years or the number of completeness.

John-Paul II died 2 April 2005 Thus Benedict began his ascension year that completed John-Paul II's final year in April 2005 through 28 March 20064. Thus Benedict XVI began his first year as the 7th post-1929 solo pope 28 March 2006 and he ruled through 28 February 2013. 1 day and 1 month short of completeness...7-years.

Thus the Judgment hour allotted for the LIVING from 22 October 1929 to 22 February 2013 (83 years 4 months) began with the reign of Pius XI and ended in the reign of Benedict XVI.

“Ten kings [Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, & Clinton)...receive power as kings one hour with the beast” (Revelation 17:12).

The time allotted for the Judgment Hour of the LIVING ended 22 February 2013 and the solo pope papacy from Pius XI to Benedict XVI correlated with that hour. It has ended in that there are now two popes living concurrently as there were 2 kings of ancient Babylon when the kingdom fell to the Medo-Persian kingdom.

Revelation 14 clearly announces that the Judgment hour of the DEAD has begun (22 October 1844) Note that the 1st angel announces the 1844 Judgment Hour Then the 2nd angel states Babylon is FALLEN (even though papal Babylon fell in 1798 before the 1st angel sounded).

In Revelation 18:2 the 2nd angel sounds before the first Angel. 18:5 "For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." When does Babylon's sins reach heaven? When are her sins remembered in Heaven? Is it not when the books are opened during the judgment?

18:6 "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double."

When is the reward given? Before or after the Investigative Judgment?

19:2 "For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication [Benedict resigned because the his priests' fornication---we are at the end of the time allotted for the investigative judgment but in the gap before the pouring out of God's wrath when He dispenses Judgment], and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand."

Trying to keep it short. If I missed or added something please tell me.

There is at least one problem - the judgment is not just about humans, but "the hour of His judgment" points to the time when God is judged. This perhaps the most important part of the great controversy is the judgment OF God.

But HC, March 27 to April 1 didn't work out the way you thought! Have you accounted for that in these conclusions that you have drawn?

yes

There are those who study the Bible (and make mistakes from time to time). There are those who constructively interact with them and contribute to the study and increase knowledge. There are those who are the accusers of the brethren. And there are a lot of people all along the spectrum between encourager and accuser who do not know where they are in Bible prophecy.

Bible prophecy study is a learning experience. For we know in part and when that which is perfect is come, we know more.

My original understanding was that if President Obama left office on 20 January 2017, that Christ would have to come by 19 January 2018.

Or Obama would have to return to office before 20 January 2018. More study led me to go with 28 March date as the Babylonian New Year's Day. Someone told me on this forum that 28 March could not be Babylon's New Year's Day.

28 March was Nisan 1 (New Year's Day on the Hebrew calendar this year)

But if some want to toss the baby out with the wash water... But I believe that my understanding is closer than some folks think and when more pieces of the puzzle are understood, the blessing will be self evident.

Can you explain how this works. For example if the judgment of the living is over who can be saved except those who are being sealed? And they have already been judged so why would we attempt to bring people to Christ if only those who are already saved are being sealed? Am I misunderstanding?

I have to say HC, I think you may be closer to the truth than many of us regarding Ellen White's position on the angel's declaration that time would be no longer. You say it applies specifically to the day and hour of Christ's return rather than being a blanket prohibition of prophetic periods after 1844. That's a point worth considering.

Another of her statements suggests that her meaning is that time prophecy will never be a testing truth again. In the context of the angel's declaration ending time she says it shows that the people will never be tested on time again as they were in 1844.

Taken together, these two ideas are complementary, the one helping to interpret the other.

This is a good lesson for us. If you lived in America in 1844, you didn't need to have a completely correct understanding of the meaning of Daniel 8:14 for it to be a testing, present truth. God was speaking through Miller to America. Miller wasn't completely right but his message, the kingdom is at hand in the year 1844, was still testing truth.

That is why being a scoffer is often fatal. Those who scoffed at Miller felt they were justified when his prediction proved false as they thought. Small consolation for the spiritual death that resulted from their unbelief.

I'll admit that I've mistakes in my understanding of things at times. But, I learn from those mistakes and adjust my thinking to the new information.

It doesn't seem that is happening. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I've been reading HC's (Henry's) posts for approximately twenty years now. He will only admit to making a "little" mistake, and that he now has new information to show a new approximate time period. It's happened many times now. It started back when John Paul II was the pope and Bill Clinton was the president.
It would be interesting to compile all the "present truth" predictions made over those years that just didn't happen.

It's like building sand castles and urging everyone to seek refuge in those sand castles or drown, but every time a wave comes and washes their sand castle away, instead of realizing this speculation its self is the mistake, and it is NOT the third angel's message, they just go to work to build a new one ---it's an addiction this constant speculative predicting.

The testimonies not only condemn setting a specific day for Christ's return, they warn us not to even give an approximate time == like in one or two or five years.

See the quotes in this post

.

But Mr Miller was so wrong in certain of his "predictions," and doctrine; and it does no good in advancing Bible truth to scoff at scoffers of his "message." While Miller did evince some truths, important truths; he also couched them in cherished error and theories:

It is a wrong, a very wrong use of the testimonies, when they are used to discount the very plain declarations of scripture, which need NO "interpretation" that would change the meaning thereof to something that Jesus has never said.

God Gives No Authority To Set A Time For Christ’s Return

I appreciate the response dedication.

I've only been familiar with HC's thinking for a few months here and in clubadventist. I am really sorry to see people struggling over points that aren't even relevant!

I will be praying for all those here with those type of struggles.

As I currently understand it, the time allotted for the Judgment Hour of the living ended on 14 February 2013. So the case of every living person is current in the courts of Heaven.

In other words, God is not beginning the judgment or the reviewing process of my life. He has my name written in the book of life and the Holy Spirit is sealing me. But if I fail to receive the seal or return to my rebellion, then my name is removed from the book of Life. Likewise, if those who are currently in rebellion, hear the the gospel call repent and believe on Jesus, their names will be placed in the book of life.

I would compare it to having a store's inventory done in time for taxes. But people are still able to make purchases and returns until Christ says "It is done." At that time the books are closed and all sales are final.

Mark,

Thank you for your comments.

When the angel states "time shall be no longer" (Rev 10:5) the 2300 day prophecy ended as 2300 years at the Great disappointment in 1844. Thus long time with a day being a year ended in the book of Revelation in 1844. Thus after 1844 when time prophecy has its final fulfillment it is literal time.

EGW is hard to understand when it comes to her comments on time prophecy because she was working hard to keep the time setters in check and not wanting to make statements on time that could be misunderstood.

But when she uses the term "prophetic time" it is clear that she is speaking of the Day and Hour of Christ's Coming.

When she says the world views "all time prophecy" as being a lie and then gives her view of prophetic time, she is contrasting her view to that of the world. Thus we cannot correctly understand her position on time prophecy if we read her position as if it is the one that she is condemning.

And every time that she speaks of no time prophecy after 1844 THE CONTEXT ALWAYS has a reference to the time of Christ's Coming either directly before the statement or immediately after it. But my brothers and sisters generally take EGW out of context when it comes to her statements about time prophecy.

The wise Virgins in Christ's parable received oil in their vessels with their lamps, but the foolish Virgins received their lamps [only]. There is no mention of the foolish virgins receiving either oil or vessels of oil with their lamps until after it was too late when they returned only to be refused admission to the wedding. As with the foolish virgins, some professed believers receive knowledge about Spiritual truth, but they never personally know Jesus. The foolish Virgins have “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5). Of these, Jesus said, “I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23).

This is the time to be sure that we have received the vessel of oil with our lamps


God's Word Gives Authority To know when Christ’s Return is even at the door

It would be more truthful for you to say "I've been REJECTING HC's (Henry's) posts for approximately twenty years now."

The record is very clear. You must also remember one of our discussions where I misspoke and you posted a "thesis" that focused on my typo. But when I read your post, I immediately corrected the typo and my position was proven to be correct, BUT you refused to allow my reply to be posted on your forum and your error was allowed to stand. Had you been more willing to dialog through the years rather than to criticize, we both may have been blessed.



God's promise is that knowledge of the book of Daniel would increase. Before knowledge increased I did not understand everything about Bill Clinton. But I did understand how his affair with Monica fulfilled prophecy. So you remember the part I got wrong but not the part that I got right.

When Bill Clinton left office I expected Albert (6) Arnold (6) Gore II (6) to be elected President and he was, but George (6) Walker (6) Bush (4) stole the election from him with the help of the judges that his dad appointed to the Supreme Court. Then George (6) Walker (6) (President) Bush II (6) was the last man that I could see in the prophecy. I had to study some more.

Then between September 2011 to September 2012, I correctly stated (tweeted it 8 times) that Pope Benedict would not be pope after the the Spring of 2013 and he left office in February 2013. Knowledge is increasing.

I had to go back to see how President Barack Obama fit into the prophecy. Then knowledge increased and I learned how his number was (666) but President Trump now makes it look like I have not learned anything yet. But he is fulfilling prophecy and strengthening America's position on the world stage.

Knowledge is increasing. I called Brexit before it happened. And I understood when the "Other Angel" began to sound and the time allotted for the Judgment of the Living ended.

If President Trump lasts in office past 19 January 2018, I will have been wrong about my understanding about Bible prophecy. From my current understanding by 19 January 2018 Obama will have to be back in office or Christ will have to Come.

Because God's word is sure. When the vision in Daniel 7 that has been used traditionally to interpret the interpretation, the final meaning of the prophecy is different than when the interpretation is used to interpret the vision. Sea and earth are not the same. Sea beasts are not earth kings. Sea and earth are different.

And you look at the record and see major mistakes. I keep studying and praying to learn and to grow in Jesus and my understanding increases.

As knowledge continues to increase, I will continue to adjust my understanding accordingly.

Can you say the same thing of yourself? Have you ever ventured forth in faith? Have you ever grown beyond making insinuations and accusations that distort my views? Have you ever really reasoned with me? I have not seen it through the last 20 years.

As I said in the other thread, "whether or not Ellen White was referring specifically to just calculating the time of the second coming, the act of calculating events since 1844 does end up being an attempt to do exactly that through a route of reasoning by elimination."


Do you see what this is? You've set a deadline for Jesus's second coming - and this isn't the first one I've seen from you.

Even if you were right about what Ellen White meant about calculating time, this is still just what she said not to do and is the real point of time prophecies after 1844. Every attempt I know of to calculate time post 1844, whether by presidents, popes, or jubilees, leads one directly to an attempt to calculate, even if approximately, the approach of the second coming if not the exact date.

And if Christ has not come and Obama is not in office, then what? Are those that reject Henry's teaching still evil?

The preaching of a definite time for the judgment, in the giving of the first message, was ordered by God. The computation of the prophetic periods on which that message was based, placing the close of the 2300 days in the autumn of 1844, stands without impeachment. The repeated efforts to find new dates for the beginning and close of the prophetic periods, and the unsound reasoning necessary to sustain these positions, not only lead minds away from the present truth, but throw contempt upon all efforts to explain the prophecies. The more frequently a definite time is set for the second advent, and the more widely it is taught, the better it suits the purposes of Satan. After the time has passed, he excites ridicule and contempt of its advocates, and thus casts reproach upon the great advent movement of 1843 and 1844. Those who persist in this error will at last fix upon a date too far in the future for the coming of Christ. Thus they will be led to rest in a false security, and many will not be undeceived until it is too late. {GC 457.1}

The history of ancient Israel is a striking illustration of the past experience of the Adventist body. God led His people in the advent movement, even as He led the children of Israel from Egypt. In the great disappointment their faith was tested as was that of the Hebrews at the Red Sea. Had they still trusted to the guiding hand that had been with them in
their past experience, they would have seen the salvation of God. If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844, had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people. {GC 457.2}

It was not the will of God that Israel should wander forty years in the wilderness; He desired to lead them directly to the land of Canaan and establish them there, a holy, happy people. But "they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:19.

Unbelief is still rampant. Who is teaching the final message of mercy to the world? So HC, I don't see in your teaching the real message needed for this time.

He appears to post, on average, 1 or 2 new dates per year.

I would agree, but I am wondering if we should not meet error of the likes of His Child's with scripture, and then show how the testimonies concur with same. Not too much Scripture is being used in replies here, and its turning into a whipping match with EGW quotes. Note: I do not claim to have "better answers" here than anyone else, nor do I claim to be an expert. This is just something I noticed. If we hope to be convincing anyone from the general public who may read this, they would understand it much better when we reply to HCs errors with why the Bible says his take is wrong.

Yes she says that too, I agree, and then as HC also points out she also says we're to know when it's getting near.

HC, I could be wrong but it still seems to me that your first sentence contradicts your second. What you are saying does have some biblical basis. The apostles taught that believers are sealed for the day of redemption so in one sense it sounds like they have been judged and their name entered on the books, but they also make clear that the individual can remove his or her own name by not abiding in Christ. It's like God has destined us for eternal life with Him, His choice has been made, but we still can choose to thwart our own destiny.

It's interesting that Ellen White refers to the seven sealed book as the book of man's destiny if I remember right.

Also HC I think there is some basis for your claim that prophet time, the day/year principle ended in 1844 not literal time prophecies. I'd be interested in what others have to say on that point. I'm sure most would say "prophetic time" means "prophetic time" whether day/year or literal. So what do you say to that HC?

By the way I just reviewed your post again on this at the bottom of page 5 and you give some reasons but don't quote the passages. I'd be grateful if you gave an example or two of her use of the phrase "prophetic time" and/or that quote you mentioned about worldly men asserting that all prophecies are lies.

Definitely! We know the time is near! The signs are all around us. However, focusing on "time messages" to map out time till Christ comes, is not what we are counseled to do at this time.
The message is that we live everyday in expectation that Christ is coming VERY soon.

In fact she says the very things the time setters accuse those who reject their time predictions, will actually happen, not to those who reject their times, but to the time setters themself. They will eventually set a time (doesn't have to be an exact date, just a time period) too far in the future, and they will "relax" in false security thinking it won't be for a specified time yet, and they won't be ready.





The final events will be rapid ones --
They could begin any day, with overwhelming surprise.
Are we living every day with watching and prayer in expectation of Christ's soon coming, or are we neglecting the important things and spending the time mapping out a time table for the Lord to do His work.

We don't know how long God will tell His angels to continue to hold back the winds of strife -- because there are still people out there who haven't made that full commitment to Him yet.

Good point Dedication.

Regarding the end of prophetic time, HC, here's another thought: Since Ellen White reapplies Revelation 10 to the future which is where the angel declares that "there should be time no longer" there is a future application to this part as well: The first fulfillment is when the day/year prophecies ended, 1844, and the second is when literal time prophecies end.

This agrees with the context of the pronouncement which (in the next verse) indicates that prophetic time ends when the seventh trumpet sounds. Since Ellen White applies the trumpets to the future as well, both inspired sources agree. That is, if the trumpets are future and prophetic time ends with the sounding of the seventh, we are not on forbidden ground in studying or teaching them provided that we don't stray from the counsels - no man knoweth the day, etc.

Here's EGW's commentary on Rev 10:

Like the prophecies of Christ in Matthew 24, Ellen White blends the two applications together and leaves it for us to study out the inspired meaning.

I have to say here, non-Adventist Christians are often more spiritually awake than most of us. A sizable percentage of non-Adventists have now rejected the pre-tribulation rapture and are fully expecting the trumpets to sound at any time. They are often more repentant and zealous than we are. Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. It's not what you know prophetically or otherwise, it's who you know. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Many of these are already Sabbath keepers. Will the Lord have to bypass us as He did the Jews? We're at a time when He has started to gather the remnant of Israel's 12 tribes, the children of Abraham by faith, whether by blood or by adoption. None will be overlooked, but all will be children of faith.

I disagree with much of this post. Most non-Adventist Christians aren't aware of present truth for these days and don't care to know. They are to caught up in futurism and Jonathan Cahn date setting.

Oic... George H.W. Bush stole the election for his son and undermined God's prophecy? I don't believe that.

Well, I hope you will learn present truth His Child Henry before it is too late.

I don't believe what you twisted my words to say either

@His Child


Your statement "This is the time to be sure that we have received the vessel of oil with our lamps" is absolutely correct. We are very close to the end. Like both the foolish and wise virgins, we just don't know how close, and can't know. When the call is made that the Bridegroom is coming, then we will know, but until then we are to wait and watch while finishing the work given to us.

There is still a lot of work to do. Millions upon millions have never heard the gospel. The close of the judgment of the living will forever seal each person for their eternity. There is no change to be made or continuation of the judgment past that, or else the judgment couldn't be said to have closed. Either judging is ongoing or it is not.

Let's set aside question on what Ellen White meant about time prophecies, and instead go to the Bible. Above already is one parable about the virgins who, whether good or bad, didn't know what time to expect.



The parable given is that the servants didn't know when their master would return. These are not bad servants. It was simply the case that they didn't know what time to watch for, and so were to watch continuously while diligently carrying out their work. In none of the parables regarding the second coming are we given an indication that those in the parable knew what time to expect.


Again, the fact that the servants were waiting and watching shows us that they didn't already know what time to look for. The possibility is presented that the return could be at various times.


The Bible is consistent on this point: we don't, can't, and won't know the time of the second coming until it is upon us.



There are still many things that we don't know about Revelation, as well as many conflicting theories, and they need careful and focused study combined always with prayer. I was thinking just today that Revelation is evidence of God, as it's clear that there's a great truth just beyond the horizon and that we can't comprehend by our own wisdom. No human mind could have produced something so perfect and yet also so difficult to fathom.

The message for this time is to fear God, who made heaven and earth. To flee the deceptions of the world. To worship God only and keep all of His commandments. This message is not one of time setting beyond the fact of judgment having begun in 1844. This is the message that all of us, including you, are called to give.

Well-spoken Trevor. I like this idea, of all the messages, about the Bible being our main reference point/s on essential and/or "present truth." It is also worth thinking about that some continue to post mostly/all isolated EGW quotes/snippets, which she had said time and again for people to not do with/to her writings

HC has, so far, always been wrong when it comes to Bible Prophecy, and there is not much talk about Christ In Victory, or Victory In Christ in his espousal that sometimes change monthly In brief; Obama is not in any Bible I have read, I have 30 different versions

But the servants were commanded to WATCH. Not just to work. And what do you suppose the servant was to watch?





That conclusion disregards clear teaching of Scripture.








That conclusion is preposterous. The Bible is consistent on this point: we don't, can't, and won't know the exact time of the second coming, but we will know the season before it is upon us. And that will divide the wise from the foolish virgins who wait until it is too late to be sure their lamps have oil in them. They wait until they are sure like those in Noah's day waited for the rain to fall instead of heeding Noah's preaching.



We are especially under the third angel's message. To fail to understand America's part in the closing scenes of the Great Controversy and to fail to give the right warning message at the right time is to fail to be led by the Holy Spirit when He is sealing us to meet Christ at His coming.

Luke 12:38 "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants."

I say again, the fact that the servants were waiting and watching shows us that they didn't already know what time to look for. The possibility is presented that the return could be at various times.

We are given no impression that the servants knew what time the return would be. Thus the blessed servants were watching through the night, not knowing if the return was to be in the first, second, or third watch. If they knew, they would have been described as watching when they expected the return.


Yes, and that season is now and has been since the start of the investigative judgment.

It's difficult to call a specific deadline date for the second coming simply knowing the season. The reason being that as the deadline approaches, and the event has not yet happened, that date becomes less a season and more an exact prediction for an exact day.


You are close, but there's a part you glossed over. "He would have watched" really is important, it's the duty we're given with the words "be ye therefore ready also", but we can't avoid the ending: "for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

This gives us the conclusion that we can know we're near, the signs are all around us after all, but we can't know how near. That doesn't just mean not knowing the exact return date, but also not knowing the exact date for events leading to it after 1844.



The third angel's message, though a warning against the mark of the beast, is at its core an advocacy for the true commandments of God. This message does not hinge on time. It's not a message to give at the right time when the beast makes its move. It's a message for now and until the end.

I basically agree with your thoughtful comments Josh. But here's one issue that gives me pause: In EW Ellen White says that "At the commencement of the time of trouble we were filled with the Holy Spirit and went forth to proclaim the Sabbath more fully." That may not be word for word but it's close enough to accurately state the thought. So it seems to me that it's important to know enough about where we stand prophetically to recognize both the latter rain and the little time of trouble when they occur.

The appearance of the little time of trouble is the advent of the abomination of desolation and Christ specifically tells us to study what Daniel has to say on this topic so we don't miss it. And Daniel is clear this abomination is directly linked and its very identity is tied to time prophecy.

I understand your point and agree with much of what you have stated, but have you considered this?



To me that says that some of Christ's parables are linked to the prophecies.



When I study these 2 EGW statements individually and together, I look for the parables to explain the prophecies.

Background [In my study of Daniel 7, I have identified the kings from the earth as Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and Obama. I have not found Trump in that prophecy so I am operating on the suspicion that he will not be in office a full year. In Babylonian tradition, it a king was not in office on New Year's Day it is as though he never was.]

In Christ’s parable, the Bridegroom comes at midnight. Before He comes, the calls are given in the parable of the eleventh-hour for the laborers to work in the vineyard. Jesus said that “the last shall be first and the first last” (cf Matthew 20:1-16). Jesus is the First and the Last; the Alpha and the Omega (cf Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13).

From the lessons of Christ, in the parable of the 11th hour—the hour just before the Bridegroom (Christ) comes—the first Greek letter alpha (A) is last and the last Greek letter omega (upside down horseshoe also written W) is first. How does reversal of the AW, Alpha Omega sequencing that represents Jesus, to the WA sequencing compare to the five Presidents that I have identified in Daniel’s Prophecy on the eve of Christ’s Second Advent?

The householder went out five times to get workers for his vineyard: 1) early, 2) at the third hour, 3) at the sixth hour, 4) at the ninth hour, and 5) at the eleventh hour (cf Matthew 20:1-6). Five sequential American Presidents have been identified with the omega alpha sequencing. President Obama, who does not have a W in his name, is included.

The first A shall be last and the last W shall be first:
WA = 1) Ronald Wilson ReAgan
WA = 2) George Herbert WAlker Bush
WA = 3) WilliAm Jefferson Clinton
WA = 4) George WAlker Bush

George Walker Bush & Barack Obama are depicted as though they are one
WA = 5)George Walker Bush & Barack ObamA

I cannot see President Trump in Daniel 7 or the parable of the 11th hour. But I can see that he is doing things that Obama would never have done that is preparing the world for Christ's coming.

There is no doubt in my mind where we are on God's prophetic calendar or that as a people we are negligent in our proclamation of the Third Angel's Message of warning.

Having "no doubt in your mind" does not qualify anyone in having received, and understood Bible truth.

The Third Angel's Message is not the Obama is this, Clinton is that, and "I have no idea what Trump is". It is not when, it is who. And there is only ONE Who. The Third angel's message is the message of justification by faith in verity.

The prophet declares, "And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory." Brightness, glory, and power are to be connected with the third angel's message, and conviction will follow wherever it is preached in demonstration of the Spirit. How will any of our brethren know when this light shall come to the people of God? As yet, we certainly have not seen the light that answers to this description. God has light for his people, and all who will accept it will see the sinfulness of remaining in a lukewarm condition; they will heed the counsel of the True Witness when he says, "Be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." {RH, April 1, 1890 par. 8}

The Church is presented as standing in a self-satisfied, pleased, proud, independent position, ignorant of her destitution and wretchedness. By her attitude she says, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." How many who claim to be keeping the commandments of God are in this position today! The charge against the Church is, "Thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot." But while many may be satisfied with their lukewarm condition, the Lord is far from pleased, and declares that unless you are zealous and repent, he will spue you out of his mouth. But he warns you, he entreats you. He says, "Thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see." {RH, April 1, 1890 par. 9}

Who is represented as Laodicea What is the LIGHT? The light is the truth about the character of God and Laodicea is satified with their understanding and needs to further light on God's character. Oh that thy may see!

Shouldn't you use Hebrew lettering? Or is that Greek?

Regardless of the language you decide choose, shouldn't you consistently choose the letters out of their names?

first:
WA = 1) RonAld Wilson Reagan

Ρωναλντ

Guess that didn't work out.
Ronald
o=Omega
a=Alpha.


(By the way, it's omega, not a double-u as my physics instructor pointed out!)

The entire name was cited to show the omega alpha sequencing:
Ronald Wilson Reagan

Then you physics instructor knows more than a professional Social worker who was educated in Greece and speaks the language fluently.

She clearly learned that
Alpha=A
Omega=up side down horseshoe (upper case) and can also be written as a W (signifying lower case)

And you can confirm it <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega>...

The symbol &#937; (uppercase letter)
The symbol &#969; (lower case letter)

That does not say much in favor of the contribution of your post to a deeper understanding of this topic or of the reliability of the facts that come from your physics instructor BUT your sources may explain some of the short comings of your other posts

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Why are you against what my physics instructor said? Are you actually saying that it's a double-u?


Exactly confirm what? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega
The word literally means "great O"
The letter omega is transcribed &#333; or simply o.

http://www.kunstsprachen.de/lgc.html
Where's our "W" located? Where's the Omega located? Not together. Why?

Don't suppose that makes any difference. The clinging to a thought even in the face of error being pointed out. I do realize that throws a wrench in your ideas. And maybe messes up your upcoming book.

But..... You need to face the facts. Don't try to change them to fit your ideas.

Incidental support:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006010700190
What is the Greek letter for W?
Best Answer: The Latin alphabet (what we use in English) and the Greek alphabet do not have the same number of letters, so you can't match them up one-to-one like this. The lowercase of the Greek letter Omega physically resembles a 'w', but this might be a coincidence. Also of note, the ancient (and archaic) letter Digamma resembles 'w' insofar that it looks like the combination of two letters ('di' means 'double'; so Digamma looks like 'two Gammas') Our letter 'w' resembles a 'double U'. Not sure if this helps. Trying doing a Wikipedia search for the term 'Alphabet' and go from there.

"Shortcomings"? Ooops.

Bingo!

Talk about trying to change the facts to disprove truth that you refuse to believe:





And of course the forum is not set up to post the exact Greek symbols when I hit the post function they will likely be changed so you will have to go to Wikipedia to see the A and the W. Like the column below that is straight in the draft but anything but in the preview.

But the Greek confirms the point that my study made that you are trying in vain to obliterate with your much posting.

Jesus is the Alpha (A) and Omega (W)
His parable of the 11th hour states that the Alpha (A) will be last and the Omega (W) will be first. The 11th hour is the hour before the 12 hour. The Bridegroom comes at midnight (the twelfth hour). (And FYI no matter what time it is when Jesus comes it will be midnight somewhere on earth.)

The study of Heaven's explanation of the earth KINGS in Daniel 7 identifies the American Presidents:

Ronald Wilson Reagan
George Herbert Walker Bush
William Jefferson Clinton
George Walker Bush

Barack Hussein Obama

The Alpha (A) is last and the Omega (W) is first sequentially in the first four Presidents identified above. And when George Walker Bush & Barack Hussein Obama are viewed as though they are one (like pagan and papal Rome were as one in Daniel 7) the sequencing is according to the parable (George Walker Bush has the Omega (W) & Barack Hussein Obama ends with the Alpha (A) as it is written THE FIRST SHALL BE LAST.

The major thing that my study has not completely understood as yet is the appearance of President Trump.

He does not have an Alpha or an Omega. So I do not see him as being the second little horn on the American beast in Revelation 13, which could be the case if its first little horn were Bush II and Obama as though they were one. But in view of Daniel 8 Obama is the one that makes himself wax great. Thus with all things considered it looks like Trump has been placed in office to enact political chaos that Obama would not do.

Thus Trump is a closer that cannot be in office past 1 January 2018. I had first thought and told mountain man on this forum over a year ago about 19 January 2018, but I am inclined to think that 1 January 2018 is more accurate. If Trump should continue past 20 January 2018, I will be very surprised.

And of course we have the number 666 that aligns with the papacy and the image beast (for the image beast to be an image of the beast it has to have its number). You know how to count it for the papacy. And the number of the letters in his name (America's Presidents) end with Obama when the count is begun with Monroe:

James Monroe----------------------------11
John Quincy Adams-----------------------15
Andrew Jackson II-----------------------13
Martin Van Buren------------------------14
William Henry Harrison------------------20
John Tyler II---------------------------11
James Knox Polk-------------------------13
Zachary Taylor--------------------------13
Millard Fillmore------------------------15
Franklin Pierce-------------------------14
James Buchanan II-----------------------15
Abraham Lincoln-------------------------14
Andrew Johnson--------------------------13
Ulysses Simpson Grant-------------------19
Rutherford Birchard Hayes---------------23
James Abram Garfield--------------------18
Chester Alan Arthur---------------------17
Stephen Grover Cleveland----------------22
Benjamin Harrison-----------------------16
William McKinley II---------------------17
Theodore Roosevelt II-------------------19
William Howard Taft---------------------17
Woodrow Wilson--------------------------13
Warren Gamaliel Harding-----------------21
Calvin Coolidge-------------------------14
Herbert Clark Hoover--------------------18
Franklin Delano Roosevelt---------------23
Harry S. Truman-------------------------12
Dwight David Eisenhower-----------------21
John Fitzgerald Kennedy-----------------21
Lyndon Baines Johnson-------------------19
Richard Milhous Nixon-------------------19
Gerald Rudolph Ford II------------------19
James Earl Carter II--------------------17
Ronald Wilson Reagan--------------------18
George Herbert Walker Bush--------------23
William Jefferson Clinton---------------23
George Walker Bush----------------------16
Barack Hussein Obama II---------------20
------------------------------------------666

And then when you scoff at this evidence, because you do not have a clue why the count should start with Monroe. Then I could share with you several things that my study has discovered that you would most like trample in the mire like pearls of great value that are viewed as worthless pebbles.

The wise will hear a matter before they pass judgment on it. But the preponderance of evidence will not help anyone on their journey to Heaven for it is written along this line---Not by might or by power but by My Spirit saith the LORD.

I don;t see any thing to be gained by wasting time telling you something that you will continue to reject when that time could be used more productively in other fields.

The Lord is sealing His people in the Present Truth for this day.

Item 10 is a fair enough comment, barely. but the worst of it is that that comment is very misleading for it simply proves nothing about anything, and to add more to the pile of mistakes, in this post, there is not one Scripture to prove any of these names, or for anything else.

Also, we are not "sealed with present truth," we are sealed by The Spirit:

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I will comment on numbers 1-9 in a future post

Notice how you changed my words and replied to what you thought I said rather than what I actually said.


how a little word changes the context and the meaning. Judging from your response, it is not possible to to reply further because I know what I wrote and what I meant but who knows what you read or what you think it means.

As long as folks read things that I do not say into what I say, they will miss the blessing. Could that be what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of some folks having ears but hearing not?

Its amazing how your posts here are twisting small nuances and variants into great and all-prevailing doctrine. The Bible is pretty clear:

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"His Child" interprets the prophecy of kings based on two foundations important to him:

1. The Angel of God said the kings will arise out of "the earth", and
2. Ellen White said "the earth" represented the USA.

Putting two and two together, or rather one and one, he arrived at the rather startling discovery that the horns and heads must represent US presidents. And so he has gone looking diligently for the slightest of excuses to see any fulfillment of prophecy in them.

If you understand this, you are well on your way to discussing the matter with him; but first, you will have to show him good reason how and why Ellen White was VERY wrong.

///

You and Karen Y. should have a thread devoted to the two of you so that each of you can expound on your prophetic ideas and perverse opinions. Here is the link to her prophesying: Seven Trumpets reconsidered.

///

James,

Your summary was spot on and concise.

But regarding your second point: There is a discussion about rejecting EGW in progress "Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold" on one of maritime's forums. Some of the very people who are praising EGW there are the very ones who reject the linking of scripture with Spirit of Prophecy that you summarized so well here.

Isaiah 8:20 sums it up.

Kland and Karen threads?

I already started a thread that no one follows: Facts or fallacy in Daniel?

It is difficult to distinguish truth from error. When a little truth is put in the presentation it makes the error more palatable.

Jobs friends spoke a lot of things that were TRUE, But they judged Job wrongly and misapplied truth. We all are in danger of doing those things.

Have you thought of a name for your thread yet?

Ellen White was not wrong. Her statements are simply or purposely misapplied.

Revelation 17:15 states that waters, being seas as well, represent a very populated area of the planet earth. Consequently, when we read of the earth in prophecy, it means a sparsely populated area planet earth. Earth in Bible prophecy being basically the opposite of water in Bible prophecy.

The reason for the USA being explicitly mentioned is this country was founded in a sparsely populated area of the planet and ended up the most powerful country in the world and is following after the beast. (Revelation 13)

So, Ellen White is correct in her understanding of prophetic symbols.

Then you agree with "His Child" that the heads and horns of the beast must be interpreted as being prophetic of US presidents, since:

1. The Angel of God said the kings will arise out of "the earth", and
2. Ellen White said "the earth" represented the USA.

For #1, see Dan. 7:17, "Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth." Putting it together with #2 (see GC p.440), it is evident that Ellen White would have you look to the men who sit in the Oval Office of the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue for fulfillment of heads and horns.

And so, "His Child" must have a point, and you need some more explaining to do.

///

I can't speak for him, but I thought I'd jump in anyways to clarify that the above is not what Ellen White taught.

The symbol of the earth in Rev 13 is correctly interpreted as the land that the US arose from, but Dan 7:17 does not present the earth as a symbol. In that verse symbols were being explained, not given. The beasts were literal kingdoms that arose out of the earth. Other places in the Bible that mention earth (Gen 1:1, for example) are clearly not using it as a symbol.

Therefore the earth, as a symbol, can be interpreted as the land of the US without necessitating that the earth, used literally, also be interpreted as the land of the US.

Whatever some individuals choose as an interpretation of Dan 7:17 does not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the SDA church, the rest of its members, or its founding members, as I'm sure you understand.

• I like the distinction you made between "the earth" being seen in vision and "the earth" being spoken of in interpretation. You said, "Dan 7:17 does not present the earth as a symbol. In that verse symbols were being explained, not given." That was clever.
   
• I wish you had applied such discernment to the meaning of Rev. 13:11, "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon."
  
  If "the earth" were symbolic of the USA, then Jesus Christ would have been returning for US residents only. Consider Rev. 14:14-16:
  
  "Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, 'Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.' So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped."
  
  It is evident that "the earth" spoken of here is "the earth in vision" which must mean, according to you, that it can ONLY be the USA. But is Jesus Christ coming for Americans only? Are Canadians going to be left behind? I feel discouraged already.

///

Since the Bible elsewhere clearly explains that Jesus is returning to the earth as a whole it would contradict to apply the interpretation of the earth being the land of the US to the return of Jesus. For the sake of Bible harmony and good sense we consider context for interpretation.

In Rev 13:11 the earth is in the context of a beast rising from it. Both of these symbols work together as a whole.

Because the same vision also includes the symbol of a beast rising out of the sea, there must be a significance to the earth and the sea. Otherwise, why include them?

A beast represents a kingdom, which in the literal sense has a defined location, so the type of place it's depicted as rising from must represent a defined location. Any other place in the Bible that may use the earth as a symbol doesn't have this qualifier on it, nor is the earth necessarily a symbol in every vision that mentions it.



By the way, the second beast of Rev 13 is evidently the primary end time power. If this power is not the US, what do you think it is?

You're not being consistent. And the ONLY reason why you say "the earth" of Rev. 13:11 is symbolic of the USA is because Ellen White said so. There are 24 references to "the earth" in Rev. 12-16 (NKJV). Kindly state which one(s) point to the USA.

1. Rev. 12:4 ... [Satan's] tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
    
2. Rev. 12:9 ... [Satan] was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    
3. Rev. 12:12 ... Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath
    
4. Rev. 12:13 ... Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth
    
5. Rev. 12:16 ... But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood
    
6. Rev. 13:7-8 ... And authority was given [the Beast from the Sea] over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him
    
7. Rev. 13:11-14 ... Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
    
8. Rev. 14:3 ... no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
    
9. Rev. 14:6-7 ... Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth — to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people — saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
    
10. Rev. 14:15-16 ... And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
     
11. Rev. 14:18-19 ... And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great wine-press of the wrath of God.
     
12. Rev. 16:1 ... Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
     
13. Rev. 16:14 ... For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
     
14. Rev. 16:18 ... And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

///

The only one of those that refers to the US is Rev 13:11 because none of the other uses of that word are in the context of a defined location that is also in connection with a beast.

Glancing through I'd go further and say that Rev 12:16 and 13:11 are the only two verses that use the earth as a symbol at all, and in both places it indicates a sparsely inhabited place, though not necessarily (and if we interpret things correctly, not actually) the same location.

To clarify: I haven't said "the earth" is the US. It is "the land of the US." It's specifically the beast that rises out of it that is the US. The earth is simply a symbol that describes the type of location that this particular beast would rise out of.



I think we can agree that one thing can be represented by multiple symbols. For example, Persia was the chest and arms of silver, the bear, and the ram.

One symbol can also have multiple meanings depending on context. For example, the symbol of a lion could be the kingdom of Judah (Eze 19:2), some of the last kings (Eze 19:3-9), the devil (1Pe 5:8), and Jesus (Rev 5:5), among others. There are many other lions in the Bible that are not symbolic at all, just as the word earth is used literally many times.



I still consider, for the previously given reasons, that it's logical to view both the earth and sea as depicting the type of location that each beast would rise out of and physically occupy.

Do you consider the second beast to be the end time power?

The problem with your answer is that the use of Revelation 17:15 relating to water aligns with the vision. It uses the vision to explain the vision. But it does not align with Heaven's interpretation of the vision. When Heaven's interpretation of the vision is considered, the beasts are earth kings - not sea kingdoms according to Daniel 7:17. Earth and sea are different.

Ellen White is correct, but you do not appear to be correct on this point.

James, you didn't answer Josh's question, just assumed his ONLY reason was "because Ellen White said so".

To restate the question --
Why would the vision of Rev. 13 have one beast rising out of the sea while the other beast is rising out of the earth if no distinction between the two is to made?

Another question:
Just because "earth" is literal "the Earth" many times in Revelation, does that mean it MUST always mean "the Earth"?

The word for "earth" G1093 is used some 250 times in the NT. It can also mean "land" or "a country enclosed within fixed boundaries"

Act 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, G1093 and from thy kindred, and come into the land G1093 which I shall shew thee.

"Earth" G1093 can mean "a territory" or "the earth as a whole". To insist it must always mean the same thing is NOT right. One needs to consider the context.

Another question -- what do "beasts" represent?

Daniel 7 gives us a pattern --
Lion, bear, leopard, terrible beast rise out of the sea.
Next chapter has a ram and a goat.
Daniel 7 tells us these symbolic beasts are "kingdoms" that sought dominion over the "territories" they conquered.

Nor did they literally rise out of the sea. The sea is symbolic.

So won't the two beasts of Revelation 13 follow the pattern established in Daniel 7 and represent political powers?
In fact the first beast has all Daniel seven's beasts wrapped up in itself! Implying it is a continuation from that vision.

The first beast of Revelation 13, rising out of the sea, is virtually unanimously acknowledged to be a symbol of Rome’s power. There is variation on what phase of Rome it represents. For us the activities of Rev.13's beast parallel the activities of the little horn on Daniel 7's terrible beast, thus it indicates Rome's papal phase.
This is further supported by it's emphases on "worship" as this beast is very focused on "worship", albeit it's counterfeit worship.

The beast from the earth, called in later visions "the false prophet" (16:13; 19:20; 20:10), is "another beast" different from the first, but it is not a competitor of the beast from the sea, at least not in the end, though it's lamb like horns does seem to signify a more Christ-like attitude in the beginning.

Thus HC's idea of mixing up the identity of the two beasts is simply confusing things -- thinking the "interpretation" given in Daniel 7, is ANOTHER vision, not really an interpretation at all. Thus leaving the prophecy open to his own opinions and speculations to bring in a lot of unnecessary confusion.

This 2nd beast becomes subordinate to the first beast. Its mission in the end times, is to make sure that the earth's inhabitants worship the first beast (vv. 14-15) and set up an "image" or replica of the first beasts method of worship and government.

So this second "beast", to be consistent with the interpretation of beasts -- needs to be a nation -- a strong and powerful nation -- a rather new nation when compared to the history of the first beast.
BUT it is NOT the same as the first beast which is the continuation of Daniel's beasts.

Since the other beasts rose "out of the sea" -- and context indicates "sea" here is symbolic, because kingdoms don't normally establish themselves in the sea, but as the interpretation indicates they established themselves on land.

So why would the vision differentiate on the second beast?
It arises out of the earth, not out of the sea.
If "sea" represents "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" Rev. 17:15, then a beast rising out of the "earth" would be in contrast to that.
A sparsely settled land?


The vision shows a "kingdom" or "nation" arising near the end time that will have the political power, to enforce the first beasts "worship".
It didn't arise in the same place as the other kingdoms, or any place teaming with many nations. It has a "false prophecy" by which it deceives the world into worshipping the first beast, complete with signs and wonders, and enough clout and persuasion to enforce it on many countries.

You are right on one point -- Ellen White is correct, but your interpretation of the interpretation which totally mixes up the identity of the two beasts is total confusion.

You wrote: Revelation 17:15 relating to water aligns with the vision. It uses the vision to explain the vision.

No -- it uses the INTERPRETATION to explain the vision.

The symbolic woman sits on many symbolic waters.

The interpreting angel speaks:
17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Now if you follow YOUR way of doing Bible study, you would next say -- Oh -- peoples, and multitudes must now be symbolic of something else -- what new interpretation can we give to that? -- That reasoning is confusion.

Since in Daniel 7 when Daniel sees in vision
four symbolic beasts coming out of the symbolic sea,
The angel tells Daniel the interpretation that the four beasts rising out of the sea represent kings (kingdoms) that rise up on the earth.

To now say the interpretation is new symbolic material is simply confusion.

The question is not what does the SDA church believe and teach, but rather what does the prophecy mean?

If the endtime meaning of the beasts in Daniel 7 are identified in by Heaven's interpretation as given in 7:17 as "earth beasts" that do in fact signify "American Presidents", then that is a significant fact that the SDA church is obligated to recognize and to teach if it wants to correctly understand and teach the meaning of Bible prophecy.

Truth will constantly unfold until Christ Comes and it behooves all SDA's to understand the Present Truth of the hour and to teach it correctly. There is no merit in teaching error.

It is not good to repeat 1888 when individuals taught the correct view (of righteousness by faith) while the "church" rejected truth and clung to an incorrect view. This is not rocket science, it is Bible study based on a clear thus saith the LORD.

No -- heaven's interpretation does not say they are "earth beasts".

The interpretation says the sea beasts which arise from the sea represents literal kingdoms that arise on earth.

SYMBOLS = four beasts from sea
INTERPRETION = four kingdoms on land

You will remember that four great beasts are seen by the prophet, coming up out of the sea, rising from the commotions of the winds—the four winds striving upon the great sea. And when Daniel had described these as he saw them, the angel of God came to tell him what it all meant. And the angel, describing the whole scene, did NOT introduce new symbols -- no, the angel explains what the previous symbols mean by saying: "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings [kingdoms, nations, powers], which shall arise out of the earth.

It's talking ABOUT THE SAME THING --
Basically
A LION arises out wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Babylon fighting it's way to establish its kingdom on earth.

A Bear arises out of wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Media Persian fighting it's way to establish its kingdom on earth.

A Leopard arises out of the wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Grecia fighting its way to establish a kingdom on earth.

Terrible Beast arises out of the wind blown sea represents the kingdom of Rome fighting its way to establish its kingdom on earth.








Not at all -- those beasts are NOT presidents, they represent
LION from sea = Babylonian kingdom on earth
Bear from sea = Media Persian kingdom on earth
Leopard from sea = Grecian kingdom on earth
Terrible Beast from sea = Roman power on earth

This has NOTHING to do with presidents.
Beasts represent KINGDOMS, EMPIRES, not presidents.

One does not take the interpretation of a symbol and turn the interpretation into a new symbol.

That's like saying
When the angel in Rev. 17 says the waters represent people and nations, that means we must now regard people and nations as a new symbol and make a new interpretation for that. No -- the interpretation is the meaning of the previous symbol, not a new symbol.




If the church started teaching your way of doing prophecy it would lose all credibility.

The prophetic outline as it is rightly understood by the church has convinced multitudes of the accuracy of the Bible -- the inspiration of the Bible.
Your interpretations have been nothing but speculations that have failed time and time again. It's amazing that you are still persisting that your way is truth -- it confuses truth, and makes a mockery of it.

AMEN!
And I pray that you will one day see the truth in that statement and return to true foundations of prophetic understanding.
For when the foundation is torn up (which your interpretation does) -- truth can no longer progress --

The first beast of Revelation 13, rising out of the sea, is virtually a composite of Daniel seven's four beasts. His body was like that of a leopard, his feet like those of a bear, and his mouth like that of a lion, and "the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Here we see a continuation of Daniel seven's prophetic outline, the ideologies of the previous kingdoms have merged into this beast, which is recognized by many as the Roman power.

The activities of Rev.13's sea beast parallel the activities of the little horn on Daniel 7's terrible beast, thus it indicates history's advance into Rome's papal phase.
This is further supported by it's emphases on "worship" as this beast is very focused on "worship", albeit it's counterfeit worship.

The 2nd beast in Rev. 13, (and this one, as opposed to beasts in Daniel, does actually arise from the earth) is called in later visions "the false prophet" (16:13; 19:20; 20:10),
It is "another beast" different from the first, it is NOT the same, it is a different beast, but it is not a competitor of the beast from the sea, at least not in the end, though it's lamb like horns does seem to signify a more Christ-like attitude in the beginning.
Though coming on the scene much later, in the end time it is a contemporary of the first beast.


Thus HC's idea of mixing up the identity of the two beasts is simply confusing things --

This second beast becomes subordinate to the first beast. It's role in the end times is to ensure the first beast receives worship and honor. Everything it does is done under the supervision of the first beast.

This is another point from which HC strays.
There is no room in his presentations of the signs that really fulfill the prophecies!!


The first beast -- Vatican power -- gains control of this 2nd beast -- a powerful nation and this powerful nation (America) will ensure the first beast is worshipped.

The last crises isn't political (though a lot of laws have been passed to remove people's rights already) -- it is religious! When religion takes control of government to enforce religion, for what will be perceived as good reasons -- the crises will hit with overwhelming force.

Now we will see the force of the fearful threatening of the third angel of Revelation 14. The time has at last come for God to reckon with this proud, blasphemous, persecuting power, which for centuries has dared to change his law, to claim divine prerogatives, and to persecute his saints.
God reserved this great crisis till all can know his word, if they desire to do so. God has waited till an age of great light, when all the world can tune in as to what is happening, and decide for or against truth.

The third angel's message isn't about which president -- it is about worship, and righteousness and keeping God's commandments and having an enduring faith that clings to God no matter what.

It's about the Protestant faith going back to Rome and allowing Papal Rome to use their government power to enforce religion -- an apostate religion that sets itself above God and His law, while claiming to serve God.

Quote:

The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902)

In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World.--GC 573

God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare {GC88 581.1}

The Spirit of Prophecy links Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.



The symbolic sea and earth are in Revelation 13, BUT though they also appear in Daniel 7, the sea is viewed as symbolic and the earth is viewed as literal. And of course that is incorrect. Because if the sea is symbolic in Daniel 7 and the earth is literal in Daniel 7 then Daniel 7 teaches that the symbolic sea is the literal earth.

If the symbolic sea is the literal earth as it is being supposed in Daniel 7 then the SDA view of the sea and earth is contradicted in Revelation 13. Both chapters deal with the same prophecy and both use sea and earth symbolism. BUT in Daniel sea and earth are being made to be the same thing while in Revelation they are different. As I have said before, sea and earth are both symbolic in Daniel 7 if they are both symbolic in Revelation 13. If they are not both symbolic in Daniel 7, then the view of the symbolic sea as the literal earth in Daniel 7 must also be applied to Revelation 13.

The error is that Revelation is given to expand and explain Daniel and the increased light from Revelation that came at the appointed time is not being allowed to do that which the LORD has ordained that it should do.

Thus there is bickering about things that are plainly settled in Scripture. That is not wise and it is not of God.

HC, if you take your position to its conclusion, don't you have to say Ellen White's historic interpretation is wrong? If what you say is true, that the earth is used as a symbol in Daniel 7, the angel's interpretation is also wrong because he says the four beasts are four kingdoms (translated kings in the KJV) and Ellen White says who the kingdoms are.

But the fact that the beast of Revelation 13 is a composite of Daniel 7 and both deal with the final persecution of the saints does indicate an end-time application to both.

Mark,

Those are good points. Let's look at them.



No. Ellen White was a prophet.





The angel said



What is the fourth malkuw? Is it a kingdom as 7:23 renders it in the KJV? Same book. Same word. Same translators.



What goes better with the context in Heaven's interpretation?



or



Why did the translators choose kingdoms and ignore the context of Heaven's interpretation. Because God ordained that they do it.



Did the use of malkuw as kingdom rather than reign facilitate the sealing of the book until the time of the end. YES That meaning was developed prior to the unsealing of Daniel. The understanding of the 4-kingdoms was as early as the 2nd century AD. Martin Luther understood it in the 1500's. The KJV translation was 1612? and Newton 1627-- all were before the book of Daniel was unsealed and opened.

Why did not Ellen White understand it better?










The composite beast is Reagan (Great Orator=lion's mouth), Bush I (Bear's features), and Clinton (leopard = Brass midsection) as the last 3 of the ten horns/kings (Truman to Clinton) that bonded with the HEALED papal heads/beast (Pope Pius VI received deadly wound 1798) Pope Pius received healing of deadly wound 1929 (Pius head that was wounded was healed). The 7 healed heads were Popes Pius XI to Benedict XVI. And then the prophecy transitioned from the 7th head (Benedict XVI who reigned a short space) to the beast with the 2 lamblike horns (horns depict kings Daniel 8:20) Bush II and Obama.

Ellen White does not contradict the Bible when she discusses the traits or characteristics of the horns (Republicanism and Protestantism, etc). But her discussion of the horns characteristics do not represent the meaning of the symbolic horns to be something other than that which is defined in Scripture. The Greater Light is the standard and the Lesser Light gives insights.

The composite beast of Revelation 13 is papal Rome -- not US presidents.





The composite beast is Papal Rome.
NOT America

Why are you confusing the two symbols in Rev. 13?

The second beast with Lamb like horns is America and once America knocks down the wall of separation between church and state, America will be subordinate to Papal Rome, -- everything it does in the end time is under the supervision of the first beast. It's mission will be to get the world to worship the first beast.

Your statement is not correct.
IF Daniel 7 had a beast emerging from the earth IN THE VISION, then it would be symbolic as the sea is symbolic.

BUT Daniel 7 has beast emerging ONLY from the sea.
The angel comes and says:
BEAST emerging from sea = kingdoms established on earth.

I'm sorry you just can't see the obvious.


That is correct --
The symbolic sea represents nations and people which do NOT live in a literal sea, but on the LITERAL EARTH.



There again you are mistaken --
Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are NOT the same prophecy.
Revelation 13 builds on Daniel 7, but is not the same as Daniel 7.
In John's day, the previous three beasts of Daniel 7 (Babylon, Persia, Greece) have already been absorbed into the Roman beast, this is shown in the composite beast -- so John starts with the Roman beast which was in power in his time, showing it receiving authority from the dragon and moving into its papal phase. That beast remains the papal beast until the end of time.

Then John is shown and thus adds a whole new beast that was NOT yet seen in Daniel 7, but emerges near the end of time and is contemporary with the papal beast in the last days. That "new" beast is NOT the same as the first beast of Revelation 13. It is ANOTHER BEAST, a totally new beast -- a new power emerging near the end of time.

Again to reiterate-- Daniel 7 does NOT use "earth" symbolically.
Earth is only mentioned in the INTERPRETATION, not in the symbolic vision.

Thus there is NO symbolic earth in Daniel 7.
We do not make the interpretation of symbols into new symbols.
Interpretations are interpretations, not new symbols.







True, Revelation expands and adds new information to Daniel's prophecy. The error however comes when you mix up the identity of the two beasts in Revelation 13, basically making both beasts one and the same, and in making interpretations in Daniel seven into symbols.

That error is so obvious in your interpretation, why can't you see it? Pray that God opens your eyes to see the danger.

Why can't you understand, that when an angel interprets a symbol, he is telling us what the symbol means -- he is not giving another totally different symbolic prophecy.

Not only do your ideas turn the interpretation of a symbol into a new symbol, which causes you to even lose the identity of the first beast, but this supposed "new light" has failed so many times it is obvious that it is "darkness", and that it is heavily hiding the truth of the three angel's messages.

In the meantime -- we see America placing itself more and more in subordination to papal control, and we see the papacy gaining remarkable influence in the world -- while on this forum that is being pushed aside, and a non-truth of making Obama the "present truth" is over running the forum.


Those who focus on a specific person as the "KEY" will probably miss the final true fulfillment of prophecy and end being totally surprised when the crises hits, for it will probably come through someone else than the one on their "list". We need to be much wiser and see the events prophesied taking place, and pray that we are following the Lamb fully, then to confuse and speculate on who the specific person will be to push the trigger that starts the crises.

I read your posts with interest, and cringe at how you trample upon Present Truth and turn the eye of the people from an understanding of current events back to that which is but a foreshadowing of last days events.







Be cautious:

As depicted in Revelation 13, it has seven heads.

One of its heads is wounded and healed.



Pius XI was the pope specified in prophecy, which received the healing of the deadly wound.

The seven heads of the papacy depicted in Revelation 13 were Popes: Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI. John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI.

The ten horns on the papal composite beast were 10 sitting American Presidents. Revelation 13 gives an identifying feature.



The President that comes from the prophetic earth is Truman and he called fire down from heaven in WWII on Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Beginning with Truman (who was put in office by the Jesuits) the horns on the papal composite beast are Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton.

The composite papal beast under John-Paul II bonded with Reagan (lion's mouth = great orator), Bush I (bear's features), and Clinton (leopard's features) so much so that the beast took on their features. Then John-Paul II completed the fulfillment of the prophecy (he had a deadly wound that was healed, no one could make war with him - communism fell at his bidding without firing a shot, and he died 42-months after 9/11/01). 9/11/01 is identified in Daniel 7.

During the reign of the last pope of the composite papal beast (Benedict XVI) the prophecy transitions to the earth beast. The two horns identified are Bush II and Obama.

Revelation 17 explains that the beast is the papacy. The woman is Apostate Protestantism. And the hour allotted is from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013.



There is no blessing promised for those who deny Present Truth and turn from it into darkness when the light of Heaven is shinning on the pathway to Heaven to prepare a people to meet their God.

"there is no blessing promised for those who deny Present Truth" Then there is TRUMP.

Will we believe the Present Truth that is written in God's word or the "Present Truth" that is seen (that contradicts God's word)?

Since Trump does not fit Bible prophecy, I choose to believe the prophecy as I understand it. By faith, I believe that Trump is not going to be in office long enough to be counted as an American President (according to Babylonian custom). I can only follow the Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to President Obama.

It is a matter of faith vs sight. And until the Scriptures show me that I am reading them wrong, I will have to go with the scriptures.

You're not being consistent. And the ONLY reason why you say "the earth" of Rev. 13:11 is symbolic of the USA is because Ellen White said so. There are 24 references to "the earth" in Rev. 12-16 (NKJV). Kindly state which one(s) point to the USA.

1. Rev. 12:4 ... [Satan's] tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
    
2. Rev. 12:9 ... [Satan] was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    
3. Rev. 12:12 ... Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath
    
4. Rev. 12:13 ... Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth
    
5. Rev. 12:16 ... But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood
    
6. Rev. 13:7-8 ... And authority was given [the Beast from the Sea] over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him
    
7. Rev. 13:11-14 ... Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
    
8. Rev. 14:3 ... no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
    
9. Rev. 14:6-7 ... Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth — to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people — saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
    
10. Rev. 14:15-16 ... And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
     
11. Rev. 14:18-19 ... And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great wine-press of the wrath of God.
     
12. Rev. 16:1 ... Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
     
13. Rev. 16:14 ... For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
     
14. Rev. 16:18 ... And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

I put together this list for the impartial judgment of honest SDA to see (for those who have eyes to see) that generally, SDA do not read their Bible. They simply read and regurgitate WITH POMPOUS SELF-CONFIDENCE whatever is in the Great Controversy. It just never occurs to them to verify the claims therein.

But Ellen White was blind; and it does not take much to prove it.


///

With all due respect to my Adventist friends,* you are absolutely right.



*Oh, Wait....I don't have any.

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James,

Be careful in your Bible study not to jump to unwarranted conclusions based on what you may think should be true. The book of Revelation takes considerable care to understand properly. It was written by John in his older years, following several failed attempts by the Jews to end his life, while he was in exile on the Isle of Patmos. God had not yet seen fit to allow his work to end, and had preserved his life. The vision John saw and expressed in human language employs many symbols and representations which were not intended to have a literal meaning and must be studiously examined and understood within their context.

I disagree with many who claim Daniel and Revelation are the two "prophetic books" of the Bible: all of the books are prophetic. But they do have a more cryptic presentation of the apocalyptic prophecies, and Jesus Himself states, as if to indicate the need of diligence to understand them, that "he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." He says this exactly seven times, all in the beginning portion of the book, indicating the importance of the message.

Now, allow me to share my perspective of what "earth" means in Revelation, one which no one here has yet clearly presented.

All 19 occurrences of the word "earth" in Revelation come from the same Greek word: gē, meaning simply earth, land, ground, territory, world, etc. But in Revelation, which parallels Genesis in many respects, the "earth" or "dry land" stands in contradistinction to the "sea" or "waters." The latter, of course, represent people. A beast rising from the waters would naturally represent a nation coming up from a population of people. We know that nations do not arise from the ocean, so the symbolism here should be simple enough to follow.

If waters represent populations and people, dry land, or "earth," represents an unpopulated region. America was once in such a condition. Few people lived here when the first settlers arrived, and those that were here did not have a developed civilization; unlike some of the native tribes of Central and South America. This "earth" swallows the "flood" of immigrants from Europe in fulfillment of the prophecy.

The texts you quote support this symbolic usage. When Satan was cast to "the earth," it was still an unpopulated place. The beast that comes up out of the earth could hardly find a better fit than America, which became a nation even before it had populated its territory. No other kingdom of Biblical note parallels this, for all other kingdoms in prophecy arose where people had lived for generations, having already-developed cities and civilization.

In some usages, where earth and sea are not specifically held in contrast to each other, the term "earth" may refer more generally to the world, including all of the people living upon it, for it is the word "waters" which we find in Revelation 17:15 defined as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Keep studying!

No, "earth" is not a symbol for the USA.

When "earth" is used symbolically-- in contrast to a symbolic "sea" it simply refers to a sparsely settled land.

When symbolic beasts arise,
it means a powerful empire or world power arises!
Whether they arise from a symbolic sea or symbolic earth -- their domain is still on literal EARTH.
"sea" just means heavily populated area
"earth" just means sparsely populated area

Also, don't think "sea" and "earth" is always symbolic.
They are only symbolic when in a symbolic context.

When looking for a "sparsely settled land" near the end of the 1260 years (late 1700's) one could look for other options:
Canada
Australia
or some other land.

When reading Rev. 13 the aim is to identify the BEAST that rises from the earth. What nation -- that rises to world power, is being described?

Where does a world power arise, that emerges late in history (around the late 1700's) starts in a sparsely settled land, and grows into a world power?

There are other clues in the prophecy that eliminate those other countries as candidates for the rise of this "powerful nation" --

There is only one country in the world that fits ALL the points of that beast rising from the earth in Rev.13.

Thus we say, the 2nd beast of Rev. 13 is symbolic of the USA.

The fact that it rises "from the earth" is only ONE identifying clue as to what this 2nd beast represents. It tells us to look somewhere other than the turmoil of European/Asia minor area.

Actually we are way off topic.

The 144,000 and Daniel 9

Yea, your right, Daryl. That was harsh and bitter. Sorry 'bout that.

The historical facts:







At that time [1798] the papacy was forced to desist by the French army John beheld a new power coming up.

At the time the French removed Pope Pius VI from being head of all the churches and state [1798]

AT THE TIME ... March 1801 Jefferson sent Robert R. Livingston to France to attempt to buy New Orleans. January 1803 James Monroe joined Livingston and try to facilitate the purchase from France.
April 1803 Monroe agreed to purchase the Louisiana Territory.

AT THE TIME the French forced the papacy to desist, the Louisiana Territory (the sparely populated prophetic earth that doubled the size of the USA in 1803) was sold to the United States by France. Truman (the only American President thus far to call fire down from heaven - on Japan in WWII - came from Missouri which is in the heart of the Louisiana Territory)

At that time the papacy was forced to desist by the French army John beheld a new power coming up when the USA doubled it size because of the Louisiana Purchase from FRANCE.

Of course --
In 1798 the deadly wound was inflicted upon the papacy.
The very nation (Franks) that gave the papacy it's military and political backing way back in 508 AD, to enforce the Roman Catholic religion upon the tribal nations of Europe, then in 1798 removed that power from the papacy.
And yes, new laws were made by Napoleon, that removed the Papacy as the head of all the churches. True-- at that time the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution.

That is part of the prophecy.

And yes, as the prophecy in Rev. 13 points out, a new nation was rising on another continent --on the American continent at this time that would promote religious freedom --
God granted a time and place of freedom and knowledge for the truth of the three angels messages to be established and proclaimed around the world.


But the rest of what you, HC, wrote, I can't agree with.

Just because France and England had both colonized much of eastern America, not just in what is now the USA, that does not mean they transferred the papal power over here.

In fact it is just the opposite.
The papal power (that whole beast) could NOT be part of the American government.

Territories held by the French were strongly Roman Catholic strongholds. You might not realize that, since you are not Canadian. But even in Canada we can be thankful the English conquered the French!

However, French Canadian RC resisted assimilation by the English. They insisted on the supremacy of the Church over State. Religious liberty was meant only for Catholics and not for Protestant heretics -- that was right here on this continent especially in Quebec.
Even though other provinces enjoyed freedoms, the French maintained a strangle hold on Quebec culture -- Until the "Quiet Revolution" of the 1960's Quebec was a model of conservative Roman Catholicism. The church held unchallenged sway over French Canadian society.


The English were Protestant, the French Catholic.
It was in God's plan that the English, not the French gained control of the "new world" -- and thus the French too, must give up their claim to any territories in the USA.

The Louisiana Purchase -- that was the French giving up their claim in America. They were OUT, the USA would not be subject to any European nation.

The USA threw off all subjection to European nations and thus grew as an independent nation.
Again showing that they were NOT part of the European beast --
It is not correct by any means to see USA history in the Papal beast,
They rose as an independent nation --
A nation that warrants the symbol of an "empire" -- a unique symbolic "beast" (symbolizing a powerful political nation)of it's own.

In it's beginning hundred or more years, the USA was quite anti-Catholic.
Back then they UNDERSTOOD what it meant to allow the papacy to have political power, and they wanted none of it.

TRUMAN
Ordered the dropping of an atomic bomb -- he did not call fire down from heaven in the sight of the first beast in order to deceive the whole world and cause them to worship the first beast.

Besides, Truman was only a leader WITHIN the 2nd beast nation, (he was NOT part of the first beast, he was a leader within the second beast of Rev. 13) he does not warrant any "new power" symbol.

The "fire from heaven" is a reverse action to Elijah the prophet calling fire down from heaven to show that "the Lord Jehovah, He is God. When in America, fire is called down from heaven it will be done for the papacy, to call the people in America and in the world to worship as the papacy directs.

It has nothing to do with "dropping bombs".


THE WOUND WILL BE HEALED

The wound was inflicted when the papacy lost it's "army" and political ability to control the nations.
It's army was the Frankish Empire during the 1290 years.
From Clovis -- to Napoleon.

It's wound will be fully healed when another world power, America this time, submits it's power to enforce papal honor and religious leadership upon the world.

His Child, I think I've asked this question before and I don't think I received an answer; Have you ever noticed how often you have been wrong in your interpretations?

Alchemy,

Have you ever notices how often I've been right?

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Again, you're foolishly repeating the nonsense that Ellen White wrote in the Great Controversy.

The USA was NOT founded on unoccupied land.

• Indian removal was a policy of the United States government in the 19th century whereby Native Americans were forcibly removed from their ancestral homelands in the eastern United States to lands west of the Mississippi River, thereafter known as Indian Territory.
  
  In a matter that remains one of debate by scholars, description of the policy — which clearly contributed to devastation in numbers, freedom and prosperity for those displaced — is sometimes elevated to being one of long-term genocide of Native Americans, in any case, a consequence of actions first by European settlers to North America in the colonial period, then by the United States government and its citizens until the mid-20th century.
  
  The policy traced its direct origins to the administration of James Monroe, though it addressed conflicts between European Americans and Native Americans that had been occurring since the 17th century, and were escalating into the early 19th century as white settlers were continually pushing westward.
  
  The Indian Removal Act was the key law that forced the removal of the Indians, and was signed into law by President Andrew Jackson on May 28, 1830.

Source: Wikipedia

Keep studying!

///

No it wasn't unoccupied land -- it was sparsely populated land.

You weren't there, so you can only go by "the nonsense" that people have written.

There are archeological evidences that American history was quite different from what basic school history books teach. The white man is pictured as strong and superior, who from their small settlements scattered along the east coast command the vast population of native Indians to move, and so they, unwillingly but yet obediently move!
Have you ever wondered why those "white people" who were supposedly very inferior in number compared to the native Indian populations are pictured so STRONG, that they could command them to leave, and wipe out vast populations of natives that supposedly densely populated the territories that comprise the land mass of what is now the USA?

You have to assume that the Native Americans at full strength, were extremely weak if they simply moved when white people settled the country they had already settled.

Sure the imigrants had superior guns, however, they also had those guns when they tried to colonize Africa, India and other heavily populated territories -- but the out come was quite different. Why, were they able to simply chase the native Indians off the land, and push them off the scene relatively easily?

The reason it was relatively easy for the new comers to take over the land and command the natives to move, -- is because there WEREN'T vast populations of natives!

That's where the truth is.

There weren't vast populations of natives! It was a sparsely populated land.


What happened?
Yes, at one time the native tribes flourished in America. They did have cities, trade routes, and a sophisticated culture. Just do a little research on "Cahokia" for an example. BUT SOMETHING HAPPENED. The pre-colonizing cultures in what is now USA, disappeared BEFORE the settlers came.

That is an amazing fact.

Compare --
The Vikings settled in Greenland for 500 years (about 1000-1500 AD)-- they tried to settle in America. Have you studied Viking history in Europe? These were fierce fighting warriors! Yet, though they tried to establish settlements in America, the native Americans beat them off every time. The Vikings could not beat back the native Indians.

Then came the Pilgrims -- they had a tough time just surviving! They found a few Indians, but why weren't they, like the Vikings driven off by the Indians?

Few people know the facts behind the first Thanksgiving celebrated in Plymouth, Massachusetts: the devastating epidemic of plague that ravaged the Native population BEFORE the arrival of the first permanent English settlers. The epidemic wiped out as much as 90% of the Native population in southern New England.

The fact is --
When America was being settled, the native populations had already gone through what some term an apocalypse. There culture had been devastated, their populations reduced by 60 - 90%. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower landing at Plymouth Rock, the most devastating plague in human history nearly wiped out the native population.

The land was indeed sparsely populated.

James,

Dedication has it about right -- except I would be less certain that so many natives had populated America at any time prior to the settlers' arrival as she alludes. The fact is, no solid historical records on native populations exist. Since you quoted Wikipedia, however, perhaps you would appreciate another quote from the same source, annotated with several references to support it further.



If we take an average of those three estimates, we still end up with a figure of less than 3% of what we have now in America. But considering that we really don't know, the lower estimate is also entirely possible, which leaves <1%.

Naturally, there is an information war going on as part of the great controversy. The first casualty of war is truth, it is said.

The Present Truth is not for everyone.

God has not passed His people by and chosen one solitary man here and another there as the only ones worthy to be entrusted with His truth. He does not give one man new light contrary to the established faith of the body. In every reform men have arisen making this claim. Paul warned the church in his day: "Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." The greatest harm to God's people comes through those who go out from among them speaking perverse things. Through them the way of truth is evil spoken of. {5T 291.2}

Dedication,

Your post is not following what I said. You are not hearing me aright.

The first beast in Revelation 13 is the papacy.

The papacy bonded with American Presidents...The Ten Horns... from Truman (who the Jesuits claim to have placed in office) through Clinton.

Each President from Eisenhower through Clinton had papal visits while in office. Thus they bonded with the popes.

Most of this information was readily available on the US State Department website until Hillary Clinton became Secretary of State and "up-graded" the website. Now you have to google it and work a little harder to find it. (It's on Wikipedia)





Thus the papal beast is identified as the papacy. The horns that bonded with it are 10 American Presidents. The last 3 are Reagan, who has the lion's mouth because he is the great orator. Bush II who aligns with the bear of Daniel 7. and Clinton, who aligns with the leopard features in Daniel 7 and the brass mid-section in Daniel 2. His midsection nearly got him kicked out of office.

The 538-1798 1260 years of papal supremacy foreshadow the 42 months that Pope John-Paul II had from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05. The date 9/11/01 is clearly identified in Daniel 7. It is in harmony with EGW's statement:



In the verses EGW quoted the 42 months occur. They where fulfilled from 538 to 1798 and they had their final fulfillment from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05. That is Present Truth.

When people try to explain away Present Truth that they do not understand, the more they will turn from light into darkness. And turn away souls that are seeking Truth.

Regarding President Truman

1) Being put into office by the Jesuits bonded him to the papal beast.

2) He came from the area (prophetic earth) that arose when the papacy was forced to desist from persecution in 1798.

3) The prophetic earth arose to prominence in 1803 IMMEDIATELY after the papacy fell.

4) France toppled the papacy and France doubled the size of the US to enable it to become a global superpower. Had the French kept the Louisiana Territory, America could never have become the superpower that it is if it had not been for France's actions in 1803.

5) Truman coming from the area of the prophetic earth and called fire down from heaven in the sight of eyewitnesses in WWII. This is an identifying feature of America it is not the final fulfillment of Bible prophecy that will take place in the endtime.

6) Reagan began placing SDI weapons in orbit (satellites that have the capability to use lasers to call fire down from the sky) they will be used to more fully fulfill the prophecy. Reagan also came from the area of the prophetic earth as did 7 of the 10 Presidents from Truman to Clinton. Reagan has enabled the last American President to fulfill the prophecy of calling fire down that Truman began to fulfill.

This does NOT make an America president a part of the Roman papal beast symbol in Revelation 13.
-- America has it's own symbolic symbol -- a second beast which is spoken of as ANOTHER beast in Rev. 13.
Truman was a president of America symbolized by this SECOND beast.

During the endtime these two beasts are contemporary, though the first has been around for centuries, lost power, and is revived (healed), while the 2nd beast is a relatively young power.

What the trend of presidents cozying up to the papacy does show is what I've said all along -- America will give it's power to help the first beast regain its power. It will subject itself to the papacy, and enforce papal dogma, but it does NOT become part of the papal beast. The symbols on the papal beast do not connote political powers on the 2nd beast.


Of course, Truman was a president of the United States, which had originally risen up in a sparsely populated continent.
But that does not make him part of the papal beast symbol. He is part of the 2nd beast -- and there is no list of presidents on that symbol.


No the prophetic "earth" never rose.
The symbol of "sea" typifies "heavily populated area on earth.
The symbol of "earth" typifies sparsely populated area on earth. It does NOT typify a nation.

The 2nd beast of Revelation 13 began to rise in 1776 when America became an independent nation. And slowly grew in prominence. True the papacy lost it's political power in 1798, but we do not look to the symbols on the papal beast to map out America's presidents.



The Franks were the "army" that gave its power to the papacy in 508. This enabled the papacy to control and enforce it's religion on the tribes of Europe for 1290 years. Yes, the same nation that supported the papacy during the "Holy Roman Empire" years, in 1798 ended the political power of the papacy. France never toppled the papacy itself -- but rather put another pope on the papal throne a year later. However, Napoleon did make a new code of laws removing their political power over all churches. They no longer had an "army" to enforce religion on the people.

The Louisiana Purchase was an important step in America's growth, but the connections you make are unfounded.

The Louisiana territory belonged to Spain. (True the French had claimed it 120 years earlier but had lost it to Spain before 1776)
The USA made a treaty with Spain "The Pinknye" treaty in 1795, feeling confident it would soon be theirs.

1801 Napoleon gets aggressive ideas and wants New Orleans and talks the Spanish into giving up the territory. Napoleon sent an army to St. Domingue in 1802, of course the Americans got worried.

President Jefferson prepares to fight the French army to drive them out, but first sends Monroe to try and negotiate with the French. Meanwhile, the French Army in St. Domingue was being decimated by yellow fever, and war between France and England still threatened. Napoleon decided to give up his plans for Louisiana, and offered Monroe and Livingston the entire territory of Louisiana for $15 million. That was 1803.

Don't thank the French --
If they would have simply stayed home those two=three years, the USA would have still gotten Louisiana from the Spanish eventually.




But you have these presidents coming from the 1st beast, not from the 2nd beast. So there again there is no connection.
Yes, Truman was a president of the USA during the WW2.
But by this time the USA was not really what one would call a sparsely settled land.

The symbolic "earth" is NOT the USA,
The first beast rose from the symbolic sea, not the symbolic earth.
The 2nd beast is symbolic of the USA.


Truman did NOT call fire down from heaven to deceive the world into worshipping the first beast (the papal beast).

This to me just shows that you do not understand the REAL message in Revelation 13.
The issue is WORSHIP and the 1st beast regaining power to enforce worship. The second beast gets the world to worship the first beast.
The fire from heaven will have heavy spiritual implications. It is not the dropping a bomb to end WW2.



There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture that says ten presidents rise from the 2nd beast.
Or that ten horns rise out of the earth.

What makes you so sure that this DECEPTIVE fire will be traceable to an airplane or a satellite?

From what I read in scripture and the testimonies these DECEPTIVE SIGNS will be supernatural.



What is that quote saying?

Satan gives people power to work supernatural miracles that imitate God's miracles.


That's the deceptive part of it.

To find real present truth compare scripture with scripture.
The REAL Divine miracle of fire from heaven was on Mt. Carmel, Elijah calls fire to come down and everyone declares "Jehovah He is God"!
Pentecost == tongues of fire come down from heaven and the disciples receive power to witness.

When this fire comes, the truth of God’s Word will be the only thing keeping God’s people from being deceived.

It is very possible that the fire from heaven will be a false Pentecost -- an outpouring of a false spirit that will deceive people into false worship. When people witness the miracles of counterfeit (un)holy spirits, they will be convinced that they are dealing with the power of God --

This fire will deceive the world...
It's probably already falling--lots of change things are already happening, but will yet fall in greater measure.

I see what i did now, and have no problem with this decision. I am not used to this forums software yet, and sometimes it generates so many quotes on quotes, its hard to tell whats what. Thats not a complaint, just a problem that I have. I will be more observant for this in the future.

I agree with this, and I would challenge HC to provide verifiable proof from Scripture that "The Jesuits" did in fact do this with/to/for President Truman

The first beast in Rev 13 is the papal beast. The evidence presented was that the horns (American Presidents) bonded with the heads of the papal beast (the popes).

The Louisiana Purchase doubled the size of America so much so that it facilitated America to become a global power like the papacy had been before it received its deadly wound. When the papacy arose it was the ranks (France) that started the process. Likewise France toppled the papacy in 1798. And France doubled the size of America to begin its rise to prominence.

7 of The American Presidents come from the area of the Louisiana Territory. They don'd come from the papacy They Bond with it to prepare the way for the decline of the papacy and the rise of the second beast.

The symbolic "earth" is sparsely inhabited area identified as the Louisiana Territory that joined to the USA.

Truman identifies the earth in this prophecy as America because he called fire down from heaven. EYEWITNESSES state that the bomb exploded 2000 ft above the ground and fire rained down on Japan.



That expresses my view of your narration as well.



Just because you are unaware of the Scriptures that identify the ten Presidents that arise from the earth is not an evidence that the Scriptures are not there. It is an evidence that you need to study a little deeper.



The SDI technology had its name changed to BMD by Clinton. And to something else by George Bush II. It was continuously developed at a cost of $10Billion/year for about 30 years and it was said to be moderately successful system but not the panacea that Reagan had promised. Then Bush II withdrew America from the ABM treaty because it restricted the US from implementing the SDI system.

Why would any President withdraw America from a treaty that forbids it from implementing as system that would not work?

Do a word study of deceptive as used in Revelation 13. The beast from the earth compels the "whole earth" to receive the Mark of the Beast. It deceives and compels obedience.



That quote is saying that God's miracles like Elijah calling fire down from heaven by the power of God will be copied by men like the magicians in Egypt did it in Moses day.

Some will spiritualize away the literal. But both applications are likely. And the evidence is there to substantiate the view that fire will literally be called down from heaven to compel the world to comply with America's demands.

Then go back to my post. I gave the reference where the black pope bragged about doing it.

The first beast of Rev.13 is the continuation of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 -- The Roman empire now manifested through the Roman papacy. It's ten horns are the European countries into which the Roman empire divided and where the papacy rose in their midst.

The horns as well as the lions mouth and bear feet are part of the Roman papal beast -- not part of the 2 horned beast.

The two-horned beast which arises about the time of the deadly wound of the first beast, is from the time of its rise contemporary with that ten-horned beast, which for a time loses it's political power. So the two-horned beast and the ten-horned beast are two distinct powers. Hence none of the ten horns, or the mouth or any part of the first beast, could constitute any part of two-horned beast.

That the two horned beast is becoming friends with the papal beast and helping it regain its power is true to the prophecy. But to turn parts of the papal symbolic beast into an American "beast" is false prophetic interpretation.




France did not double the size of America, America doubled its size with Louisiana purchase.

Study your history. Spain claimed Louisiana territory. America was already working on getting control of the territory when France had aggressive plans to reconquer the territory -- first making an agreement with Spain and then sending ONE army over to America.
America was raising an army to drive out the French soldiers -- they had no intentions of allowing France to get control of that territory. But circumstances were on the side of America. The French army stationed in America was being wiped out by yellow fever, while over in Europe the English were threatening France with war, so Napoleon, sensing the odds were totally against him, GAVE UP his ambitions for America.

America itself made the moves to that caused them to gain the Louisiana territory, the USA was and is a "beast" power in it's own right, and it is a wrong interpretation to make symbolic parts of the Roman papal beast, represent America.




The American presidents come from America and are NOT represented by any symbolic parts of the Roman papal beast.
Yes, they worked hard to help build America into a strong nation. But their increasing friendship with the papacy does not "prepare the way for the decline of the papacy and rise of the second beast", rather their friendship with the papacy is what helps heal the wound and restore the power of the papacy, and it will cause the ruin of America.

The prophecy shows that this second beast becomes friends with the papal beast (that's different than becoming parts of the symbolic Roman beast) The 2nd beast becomes friends with the 1st beast and causes the world to worship and copy the 1st beast. But it is always a distinct beast in its own right, never part of the symbolic Roman beast.




Again -- this interpretation does not fit the text. It's making one type of bomb prophetic, which neither deceived the world, or caused the world to worship the first beast.
Others could just as easily say the "blitz" warfare of Hitler was "calling fire down from heaven" as they dropped bomb incendiaries resulting in fire storms that devastated large areas.



There really is very little of the third angel's message in your interpretations. It's all about narrowing things down to "time", it is not dealing with the spiritual issues that constitute the third angel's message.

In fact I find everytime the spiritual issues are introduced, you side track the topic into your "Obama" is the last track.

Yet, Obama was NOT the last -- Trump has trumped your interpretation.


That study is based on too many wrong approaches to lead to a correct interpretation.




There are many strange things happening in the world today showing that the end of freedoms is at the door.
The whole satellite system is part of controlling the populations -- there is no doubt that the end of our freedoms is near.
That however, does not warrant the re-interpretation of the prophecies to make false claims based on which president will be the last.


Agree -- it will do so.
And we are on the brink of it happening,
But Truman didn't do that, even though, like other presidents he put down building blocks leading to the end time events, he didn't fulfill them.

Trying to base things on an individual president is just setting the stage to destroy people's faith in the prophecies -- BECAUSE they are being told a wrong interpretation is "present truth" and it failed.

Yes -- America is moving in alarming rapidity to fulfilling the Rev. 13 prophecy. All the presidents contributed to this final end.

Yes, America is getting very friendly with the first beast giving the papacy all kinds support and allowing their agents into the American government.

Yes, things are in place so in one stroke all freedoms can be repressed.

We are in the last days!

Yes, all types of deceptions are sweeping the world that are all working together to channel the populations into the last false worship to dishonor God and His law, while pretending to elevate spirituality and peace.

The problem with your interpretation is that you take some of these truths but then you have distorted the prophecy, mixing up the symbols, making your own interpretations take the place of the Biblical interpretations, and placing time restraints on the prophecy that fail, all of which give people reason not only to reject your version, but also to reject the true message.
And that is where the real danger is.

Which post HC?? Can you pls clarify specifically, or provide link?

Even if the Jesuits helped get Truman to be vice president, (knowing that Roosevelt was sick and the vice president was likely to be president before another election) this still does not make an American president a part of the Roman papal beast symbol in Revelation 13.
All it does is show the Jesuits are infiltrating and working to further the cause of popery in America.

The whole purpose of Jesuitism was to infiltrate and manipulate governments, education systems, religious bodies, etc. to make changes that would advance the cause of popery. We see this in ALL countries. It's amazing how many leaders in many countries were "trained" in Jesuit colleges and have Jesuit connections of some kind.
There is no question that Jesuits did this (and are doing this) in America with considerable and progressive success. They have been working tirelessly to subject American power under the commands of the papacy.

But this still does not make an American president a part of the roman papal beast symbol. It only shows that America was being infiltrated and influenced into her endtime role.

Revelation 13 does show the American symbolic "beast" working FOR the first beast, and doing things under the guidance of the first beast, to cause the world to worship the first beast.
To subjugate American power under the influence of the papacy is a prime goal of the Jesuits! They know when they accomplish that America will work for them in a powerful way.
The whole world will wonder after the 1st beast.

But the 2nd beast remains the 2nd beast, it does not merge into the first beast, nor do we look at the 1st beast for symbols of the second beast. They are separate "beast" symbols.
The ten horns, mouth and other parts of the Roman papal beast symbol are NOT symbols of the 2nd beast.

And to Henry's claim that if we reject what he is claiming, we reject present truth. Why is it only Henry that has come up with his interpretation? Has Henry always been right? NO! And that is a big problem, but he asks us to look at the time he was "right" which itself is questionable.

In the time leading up to 1844, there were many that were proclaiming the message from various parts of the world independently.

God has not passed His people by and chosen one solitary man here and another there as the only ones worthy to be entrusted with His truth. He does not give one man new light contrary to the established faith of the body. In every reform men have arisen making this claim. Paul warned the church in his day: "Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." The greatest harm to God's people comes through those who go out from among them speaking perverse things. Through them the way of truth is evil spoken of. {5T 291.2}

And Henry's time setting has failed, and has that strengthened the church? NO!

I was searching through my writings before coming to this meeting, to see what I should take with me to Australia, and I found an envelope on which was written. "Testimony given in regard to time-setting. June 21, 1851. Preserve carefully." I opened it, and this is what I found. It reads, "A copy of a vision the Lord gave sister White June 21, 1851, at Camden, N. Y. The Lord showed me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung on time: for time will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness. {1888 959.1}

Where does Henry speak of the Gospel? I don't see it! The message for this time is all about God's Character. So many reject the testimony of Jesus about the Character of God. Henry speaks of the number of tweaks he has made, how the loud crier predicted this and that, and how we are to look at the number of times he was right, and are we to ignore when he was wrong?

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

The thing we are to preach is Christ. Oh that we could accept the kind of God that Christ has revealed!! There is the truth. There is was sets one free.

Me thinks that you read too much about what people write about me than what I actually post.



This link worked when my fact checker confirmed it 2 months ago. But I did not get it to work just now. So I did what you could have done rather than depending on others to do all the work.

I googled it.

<truman put in office jesuits>

These were the two top results. I underlined the data you want





I have read an article where the black pope brags that the Jesuits put Truman in office and another article that claims that Roosevelt was assassinated. The two events taken together make a case for the Jesuits manipulating the presidency to advance their agenda. And Truman had a papal visit in 1956 after leaving office.

Pointing people back to past history as the complete fulfillment of Bible prophecy that is being fulfilled now is turning them from Present Truth. That is not of God.




The Twitter archives have the evidence for all who choose to look (and there is more on this forum).

These are my tweets:








But you want to hold me to the standard of infallibility. That is a much higher standard than the pioneers were held to in 1843 & 1844.



Those who reject time prophecy to intervene between 1844 and Christ Advent have forgotten how God has led us in our past history. And those who fail to understand that Ellen White meant the day and hour of Christ's Return when she used the phrase "prophetic time" are teaching error when they teach that "prophetic time" means time prophecy...because Ellen White never used "prophetic time" to mean time prophecy.

But the evidence has been presented and I am not going to parley with you two on these points. I am willing to clarify if I was not clear or if something that I said got twisted so that I have to clarify. My handicap makes it difficult to get the thoughts out right sometimes. When they go into print, they look right then comes the comments and I realize that I was not clear. But that is as it is.

1844 was the right time. However Henry, you have been wrong on the most significant claims. Trump it president. That was not supposed to happen according to you.

And still, your claims are all about you. Is that the Gospel? Nope.

I agree with your statements about this APL When i ask for "evidence" I get something else. usually something to HCs self proclaimed pre eminence in Bible prophecy

APL,

That statement expresses your misunderstanding of my communications. But you can go back to the archives here on this forum and see that I told Mountain Man a year or two ago that a President may be in office after Obama, but that that President would not be in office until 19 January 2018 according to my understanding.

Because by Babylonian reckoning the king's reign went from New Years Day to New Years Day. If the next king happened to be in office for 360 days and another king happened to get into office on New Years Day then it would be as though the second king had never been.

In the American scenario, I used Inauguration Day for my calculation as the Babylonians used New Years Day. And now I'm studying the possibility of New Years Day being 1 January for the fulfillment of the prophecy.

So without following the conversation and my position that I have made very clear on this forum you are misrepresenting me and judging my statements out of context.

And the tone of some of the comments posted comes across more as those of the Accuser of the brethren rather than those of the loving Lord that invites us to reason together. It is true that steel sharpens steel, but we must be careful not to let steel cut a bruised reed from its stalk. The Spirit of the Lord will divide the bone and the marrow as the Lord allows His word to do the work that He ordains.

I am a truth seeker. I share what I find and hope that others will give me feedback that will bring light with it. That does not mean that they have to agree with me. But too often the feedback is criticism and misinformation, and tradition, and opinions that waste time but have very little value in a true study of the Scriptures.

It appears that some folks have judged me to be a fool and treat me like one. So they see no need to reason with me. I present a fact and they trample it asunder. Then when someone stops to read the exchange it is not inspiring to see what has been posted and by whom.

I agree!

In case someone is unaware ... all of our understandings of God's ways, prophecies, hearing correctly His voice when He personally reveal something to us, interpretating correctly what was heard or what current prophets heard or even what the prophets in the Bible heard -- all fall short. We (including Ellen White) have something wrong, missing, lacking, mis-understood, etc...

My point is we should have this basic understanding that we all have something wrong in many places. On top of that, we all have our blind spots. Only the Holy Spirit can correct these.

Also we are all growing in Jesus-Christ and Jesus promised that He will finish the work He began in us. Don't we believe in Jesus word -- that HC, dedication, kland, Alchemy, and all our other brothers and sisters here and elsewhere that Jesus will finish the work He began in them? I am 100% sure He will fulfill His word.

To me I see only brothers and sisters that for the time being have different roles in this plan of salvation(Rom 9). To our view many might seem to be a hopeless lost case; despite of our views, Jesus' word still stand and I believe He will finish His work in all of us as He swore, convenanted, promised, prophezied, many times in many ways in His Word to us.

Thus in any discussion to avoid to fall into being "an accuser of the brethren", what I think would be most productive and would benefit all of us is what HC, Ellen White, and many others has said in many ways -- correct errors with truth -- and scriptures should give us the parameters where this truth can be found.

And you have never accused people of anything, correct? If people do not see things the way you claim, you call them ignoring present truth. But the truth has not be at all evident in what you have said. What happens when January (what ever date) 2018 comes and nothing changes? Will you say again, the Pioneers in 1844 had it wrong, and you mis-understood? Your dates have failed, and I suspect the next one will fail also. But you will continue on the same track. And still, it is about your tweets, your ideas, and where is Christ in your discussion? Where is the final message to the world in your tweets? There is one that needs to be held up to the world, that is where we should be. Christ and His Character is what we need for this last days. Only that will get us through.

Looking back at some of the comments, here's a question:

Where does Ellen White make a correlation between Rev 13 and Dan 7 regarding "rising out of the earth"?


To say when the four beasts which arose after Daniel's time had anything to do with the U.S. thousands of years later is misinterpreting prophecy.

But that's not what you were saying at the last.
It may have been possible for Obama to remain.
That is past, now.
There is no reason to believe Obama would ever get put in place again. A vice president, possibly. But not Obama.

There is suggestions of Impeachment. But it won't be Obama who replaces him. And not likely impeachment will happen.

But if not Jan 19, what's the next date?
Spring Equinox?

I mean, make that the "crescent" after the spring equinox...

Well, it's "spring" now. Maybe you could start by explaining just why we need "a better picture" of where we stand "prophetically?" And what are you intending to say the "dream" you had in the OP means?

Let's see --
According to His Child, Trump will get into a war with Iran, which somehow gets Obama back in as president before Trump is recognized as a president. (you wrote that in a letter to Pr. Wilson which you posted 11/09/16 07:21 AM)
A few posts later you wrote: "Trump won, Obama will stay on, and the war with Iran will come in Obama's Presidency. (11/10/16 03:38 AM )

Later you wrote:
"




The problem is --
you keep switching what you say.


So --
Then you explained:
"Babylonian tradition made the ruler on New Year's Day king until the 28th of March that followed. John-Paul II died 2 April 2005 and Benedict XVI completed John-Paul II's final year through 28 March 2006. On 29 March 2006 Benedict began his first year"

Following that explanation of a Babylonian custom with a Babylonian New Year we are to understand:

Trump was inaugurated January 20, 2017. By Babylonian calendar and tradition he becomes "king" March 28, 2017.
Trump is president!

But March 2017 is history and your speculative interpretation doesn't allow for Trump to be president so now you try to figure out some other way to deny that he is really president?

You want to use Babylonian tradition of reckoning a kings reign with the modern calendar?
saying if he is inaugurated after January 1, 2017 the time to -January 1, 2018 doesn't count????


That's the way it always is --
I can't base my understanding on that kind of "prophetic interpretations".

And the one event you pride yourself on "predicting"--
When I look at your method, it still doesn't fit.

You name the seven heads on the beast in Rev. 17 by the names of popes after 1929. Pope Benedict was the seventh.
Yet, it's all so arbitrary. Five have fallen -dead, you wrote at the time John Paul II was still alive. Did it just happened that the apostle John wrote this when John Paul II was still alive?
The beast has seven heads and you name the "seven popes" since the Lateran agreement ending with Benedict, and then you stated that John Paul II would reappear (actually being personated by Satan) as an "eighth" but of the seven.

Yet, now we have Francis.
Oh you say -- we'll just lump the two popes named Pius' into one, and that way we still have only seven? But then Benedict isn't the seventh anymore -- he would be the sixth, and all the points you used to give him "seven years" don't really apply anymore.






And how many times have you told us we are blind, foolish and lost because we don't agree with your interpretations?

The fact is -- I have looked at your studies -- and that is why I can't agree with them, I've tried to reason with you, but you think you have "present truth" and all who disagree are rejecting heaven's gift.

Now you are waiting and hoping for Obama to somehow get back in to validate your interpretation.
Like APL said -- I don't think it will happen.
Since you have so forcefully told everyone he is the last president who will be president when Christ comes, you will continue to search for some hook to hang your hopes on.

While you are waiting for that to happen --
things just might wrap up -- the real prophetic endtime events may burst upon the world.

It is not good prophetic interpretation to fix end time prophecy on an individual man, be he president or pope.

We need to look to Christ and make our calling and election sure NO MATTER WHO IS PRESIDENT.
The events will take place -- are we looking to Christ as our Savior?

"And the ransomed of Jehovah shall return and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy on their heads; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10, MKJV)

Nichol, F. D. (1978; 2002). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 4 (233). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

In the book of Daniel, the "beasts" mentioned in chapter 7 are symbols in which the application thereof are not left to speculations or whims. According to 7:17, the "four beasts" represent "four kings which shall arise out of the earth," and looking into this further, there are several Bible versions which use the word "kingdoms" instead of the word "kings." Infact, in Daniel 7:23, the fourth beast is specifically defined as "the fourth kingdom," and so even in this one short example from scripture, it is easy to see how HC's views of "kings" are not Biblical. I think most can agree that these four beasts represent the same four world powers symbolized by the four world powers in Daniel chapter two. There is no way that the Bible can be used to support HC's depictions and predictions regarding individuals who are kings or presidents, whether past, present or future.

"And he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth, and shall trample it and crush it." (Dan 7:23, MKJV)

Now that the air is clear, maybe our discussion can have some substance?

Was that light revealed to her before she died?

The prophecy of Daniel 7 stops at Obama. And Daniel 8 has Obama magnifying himself. Trump is not in either of those prophecies as I understand them.

And Revelation 13 as I understand it does not include Trump. So it is my understanding that Trump will be as though he has never been (less than a year according to Babylonian reckoning). But as we see how he is setting the stage for endtime events, it is apparent that his presidency is ordained of God.

I had initially thought that Christ would have to come within a year of Obama's leaving office, but now I suspect that Obama must come back into office, Either scenario will meet the conditions that are in the prophecy. But I am watching for Obama to come back and be the "OTHER LITTLE HORN."

But that is not the whole truth.

That is truth and it is happening in countries, and especially in America.
Are you suggesting, by you quoting one quote that I shared that it is the sum total of what I've been saying????? If so, you haven't been reading what I've shared .

I do get the impression that you don't think the papacy will be the "head" power in the last days. That somehow Roman papal power will never again be the controlling power. It's healing has already taken place back in 1929 and that's the extent of it.
Of course -- I do not believe that. Prophecy reveals a healing in which the whole world wonders after and worships the 1st beast.

As to the role of the USA in the prophecies -- have I ever denied that -- no -- the USA will use its power to enforce the mandates of the papacy. And that will initiate a great time of trouble.


Your quotes in no way contradict what I've been saying.
In it's early days America was quite anti-papacy. They won't allow Catholics public office for fear that they would do the bidding of the pope instead of working for the good of the country.

Ever read the book "Rome Stoops to Conquer" -- the Papal conquest of America has been going on for many years. America will do the bidding of the papacy.

Yes, this country will yet give it's power to the papacy, to bring about a terrible persecution in the last days.
The endtime crises will be a RELIGIOUS thing!








But none of that needs Obama to be president for it to happen.
And that's the point of objection.

The Ellen White quotes that I shared show that the prophecies move from Rome that was forced to desist from persecution to another power that is the last power to wage war against God and His Church. But you persist in rejecting American Protestants' place in prophecy in favor of your Roman views.

Satan was the power behind paganism and Rome and Satan will be the power behind Apostate Protestant American persecution. And Rome is not the Present Truth that should be focused on most prominently now. The Third Angel's Message has arrived! Preach it in its fullness.

So is your argument that since MKJV like the old KJV calls the fourth beast a KINGDOM that it is a KINGDOM?

Is That argument valid?

In Da 5:20 The very word that you use to support your position is translated as kingly "But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly <04437> throne, and they took his glory from him:"

In Da 6:3 The very word that you use to support your position is translated as realm. "Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm."

In Da 6:28 The very word that you use to support your position is translated as reign "So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian."

The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!

So how do you justify your position that is a rejection of a clear thus saith the LORD?

Da 7:17 "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

Nichol, F. D. can argue that the light regarding the word translated as kingdom and reign had not yet come when he wrote his commentary.

But it is clear that the light has now come. The word that Daniel used that the translators rendered as kingdom is reign and reign is in harmony with Heaven's interpretation:

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth reign upon earth, which shall be diverse from all reigns, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." (Dan 7:23, supplemented)

The KJV translators can argue that they understood the 4-kingdoms and light had not come to give them cause to doubt that it had another meaning.

God said that He closed, sealed, and shut up the book of Daniel until the time of the end when knowledge shall increase (Da 12: 4 & 9).

So when light has increased on this subject, what justification is there for presenting a position that is clearly based on an error that clouded the understanding of people in past ages to keep the light of Present Truth from enlightening us today?

Your conclusion, rather than embracing the unsealing of Daniel in the last days when knowledge has increased, is an attempt to reseal that which God has opened and to deny the knowledge that God has revealed through Bible study.

Henry, you have dramatically misquoted me above. The quote you are referencing from is my own personal comments, they are not the words of FD Nichol.

It will be easy to disprove your arguments above re "kingdoms" so I am in no rush here. I will wait a bit and see what develops here.

Would you agree there is no mechanism in place today for a past two-term president to come back into office?

Under what conditions would you be convinced that Obama is not going to come back into office? That is, suppose Trump is impeached and Pence takes office. Or 2018 progresses and Trump is still in. Or Trump serves 4 years and another president other than Obama is elected?

HC

Both the Septuagint and Vulgate translate the word into “kingdoms, as does the KJV, MKJV, Holman Christian Standard Bible, and a number of others. And this is for good reason, verifiable in the scriptures, just as they read.

You have accused me of somehow “resealing” the book of Daniel, while I will maintain that the correct word to use is that I have revealed it. I believe your theories conceal what we need to know today.

The first reason your theories of darkness are wrong is that your “word study” is clearly engineered by you to reflect your own doctrinal leanings, and this is never how the Bible is to be studied and revealed to others

Daniel 7:23 does use the word “kingdoms” and this is the most correctly known translation thereof. Just by common logic alone, one would have to ask: “why would a “king” (vs 23) have to turn into a “king” when it was already a king? It doesn’t make sense to say :”a king will become a king” when he is already a king! Daniel 7:18 verifies that these “kings” were kingdoms:

“But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.” (Daniel 7:18) The word in question is (H4437- malku&#770; re Strongs) and is translated as “kingdom 47 times in the book of Daniel, 4 times as “reign” and only one of those in Daniel, (6:28), it is translated 3 times as “realm, and only one of those in Daniel, (6:3), malku&#770; is translated as “kingdoms” twice, and both times in the book of Daniel, (2:44, 7:23), and the word “kingly” is only used once in Daniel 5:20, as you mentioned in your above response regarding Dan 5:20.

(if anyone wants a list of these 47 texts just let me know )

You are obviously coughing up some very specious adhominem arguments to make one text say something is wrong with 47 other textual renderings. You stated above: “The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!” and this proves nothing, even if it were true, which it is not.

In order to reveal the book of Daniel rather than conceal its correctly verified meanings, we must look at Context:

The “Ancient Of Days” (7:13), was given a “kingdom” not a “king.” and we can reflect further on this through the next verse. “And there was given Him a dominion (H7985) glory (H3367) and a kingdom. (H4437)

Daniel 7:14 calls “the kingdom” given to “The Ancient of Days” “him.” This explains why the wording, as I have so far reflected it is correct. King, dominion, reign, etc are all used to denote a kingdom in many places throughout the Bible. That’s exactly why it is correct to say from Daniel 7:23 that those four kings of Daniel 7:17 include the “kingdoms” as mentioned in Daniel 7:23

Daniel 7 is an expansion of Daniel two, expanding our knowledge of the kingdoms denoted by the statue of Dan 2 and giving us more light on the kingdoms, not kings of the great image therein which the King dreamed about. Therefore, we should expect nothing less in our message today, and God's people must categorically deny assent to your audacious claims, as they relate the eisegesis which your theories dishonour us with on the internet and in your books.

“The saints of The Most High shall take “THE KINGDOM” not the king. (Daniel 7:18). Those who “would know the truth,” (Dan 7:19), about the “fourth beast were given the unmistakeable answer: they were the ones who “possessed the KINGDOM”” (Dan 7:22), so why would it switch all of a sudden to just meaning an individual “king” in vs 23 as you have tried to say?

ThusH3652 he said,H560 The fourthH7244 beastH2423 shall beH1934 the fourthH7244 kingdomH4437 upon earth,H772 whichH1768 shall be diverseH8133 fromH4481 allH3606
kingdoms,H4437 and shall devourH399 the wholeH3606 earth,H772 and shall tread it down,H1759 and break it in pieces.H1855

Because of the correlations of Daniel 7 with Daniel 2, we know even more, how the use of the word “king” is used as a way to denote a kingdom. The Bible does this all over the place. Even the two letter word “He” in Daniel 7:25 is talking about what? The very same “kingdoms” mentioned in Daniel 7 vs 23.

You cant just stick in the word “reigns” as desired for vs 23, but even if your theory is errant enough to do so, it would not change the fact that a “reign” would have to mean there is a kingdom involved, as a “reign” makes no sense on it’s
own, without a kingdom. You have so far failed completely to prove anything I have said is “wrong.”

Trying to accuse me of “re-sealing” the book of Daniel is akin to saying that I have the power to undo what God has done:

The book of Daniel is now unsealed, and the revelation made by Christ to John is to come to all the inhabitants of the earth. By the increase of knowledge a people is to be prepared to stand in the latter days. {CTr 338.4}

It is very easy for people to unravel the many “private interpretations” arising by people proclaiming their spiritual prowess, through “dreams” and naming of specific individuals/presidents/kings by constantly rerouting all “special light” to the intended correctly verified context and message of Daniel & Revelation. All that’s going to happen from people arisng of their own selves, is that by publically naming names, (with undeserved labels), and the naming of times not set forth in Scripture, is that they will bring the entire body of Adventists, or even anybody like them into a time of trouble that is premature, unwarranted and not in keeping with God’s expressed will.

There is a time of trouble coming to the people of God, but we are not to keep that constantly before the people, and rein them up to have a time of trouble beforehand. There is to be a shaking among God’s people; but this is not the present truth to carry to the churches; it will be the result of refusing the truth presented. {CTr 363.5}
The ministers should not feel that they have some wonderful advanced ideas, and unless all receive these, they will be shaken out, and a people will arise to go forward and upward to the victory. Satan’s object is accomplished just as surely when people run ahead of Christ and do the work He has never entrusted to their hands, as when they remain in the Laodicean state, lukewarm, feeling rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing. The two classes are equally stumbling blocks. {CTr 363.6}

Some zealous ones who are aiming and straining every energy for originality have made a grave mistake in trying to get something startling, wonderful, entrancing, before the people, something that they think others do not comprehend. But often they do not themselves know what they are talking about. . . . {CTr 363.7}

Wanderer

Please refer back to your own post. Perhaps you should have cited the references differently? I quoted you as you posted it (omitting the box and indicating that material had been omitted by inserting ...)

My intent was not to misquote you but to comment on what you posted as it came through in your post. It is so easy to be misunderstood and misquoted if we don't have everything just so.

Christian regards

kland,

I agree with you. I do not see a mechanism for an American President to come back into office.

I follow Daniel 7 & 8 to Obama. And Revelation 13.

Thus I am studying the translators rendition of the prophecies. Daniel 8 does not say that the beasts have two horns. It only says that they have horns. The number two is an added word from the translators.

So there is room for more study. Does the beast with the two lamblike horns have 2 horns or is that also supplemented by the translators? I have more study to do on this before I can make any specific comments other than what I have already stated as my current view.

As I understand it...
Daniel is written in Hebrew (1:1-2:2) (8:1-12:13)
Daniel is written in Aramaic (2:3 - 7:28)
The only other book that is written in Aramaic is Ezra. The word kingdom <04437> that appears in the Aramaic part of Daniel is never translated as kingdom in Ezra.

Only in Daniel. Of this Aramaic word, I wrote “The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!”

Where is the evidence to the contrary upon which you base this statement that implies that I am in error?

It does have two horns and upon a careful reading of the text you will find it therein. You cannot reinvent the Bible to "support" your whimsical doctrines

This is not true and I showed the evidence above

If you showed it there would be no need to keep asking you to show the evidence. To say that truth is not true is wrong. William Shae and many SDA teachers could be a blessing to you.

There are only two places where 04437 occurs, Ezra and Daniel. To say, "anywhere else in Scripture", when the only other place is 4 occurrences in Ezra seems rather weak.

However.....
In Ezra it is translated as reign and realm.
How do you see "realm" as being different from "kingdom"?

Especially when it says, "in my realm" and "the realm of the king"?
Meaning, "realm" in that verse cannot be the same thing as "king", since the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom.

Do you agree that Greek letter Omega has no correlation with the English/Latin letter "W"?

What correlation does Omega have in English? Looks like you'd jump all over that with Obama!

...From [Quincy] Adams to Obama.... I'm sure something could be calculated....

You grasped my point. In Daniel 7:17 Heaven stated that the interpretation of the sea beast is that they were 4 earth kings. That is the meaning that Heaven gave of the beasts that was to be sealed until the time of the end.

When 7:23 & 24 were interpreted by men, the time of the end had not yet arrived and they went with the understanding that had been revealed up until their time. They set aside heavens statement in Daniel 7:17 and rather than accept that the fourth beast was to be the reign of the 4th king, they went with the word kingdom.

I do not fault them for applying what had been revealed at their time to the interpretation of the prophecy. But knowledge has increased and the tradition that the prophecy is about kingdoms rather than individuals will blindside those who are not following the light of Present Truth.

It is like those folks in 1844 who refused to follow Jesus from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place. When light moved, they lost their blessing because they refused to follow the light.

In their situation according to my recollection of EGW's comments, Satan then assumed the position that Christ had occupied in the first compartment and those who refused to follow Christ into the Most Holy place ended up worshiping at Satan's feet.

We would do well not to repeat that error on the eve of Christ's Coming

I replied to your question earlier this morning on the other thread.

???? Kland was saying --"the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom."

That means -- "the realm" or kingdom is not restricted to a specific king, though for a time he is the king of the realm or kingdom. The realm or kingdom remains the same, even though the rulers of the realm or kingdom change.

Three of those beast kingdoms had a strong king that elevated them to empire status in rather quick, sweeping rapidity.
Nebuchadnezzar brought Babylon to empire status,(even while his father was king, Nebuchadnezzar was the general of the army) yet Babylon (the lion) continued after Nebuchadnezzar died.
Cyrus brought Media Persia to empire status, yet Media Persia (the bear) continued after Cyrus died.
Alexander brought Grecia to empire status, his empire split into four after his death, symbolized by the four heads on the leopard beast.
Rome was diverse from the rest, going through seven forms of government, yet the "king" that really brought it to empire status was Augustus Caesar, however, the empire included many more "kings".

To say these beasts now represent
lion - President Regan
bear - President Bush Sr.
leopard with four heads - President Bill Clinton
------did he split America into four divisions?
4th beast - President Bush Jr.
-------did he produce ten horns -those ten presidents did they emerge from him?

Actually you were pretty strong on saying Bush Jr. was the last president back about ten years ago.



Are you now saying Daniel 7 is not talking about the progression of kingdoms from Babylon- Persia- Greece -- Rome which divides into 10 and the papal horn grows from it to dominate.

I suppose it is a natural end result for when we say the beasts of Daniel 7, are Babylon, Persia, Greek, Rome, we can't then turn around and say they are Reagan, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, Bush Jr.. The horns on the fourth beast of Daniel 7, can't first be European divisions emerging from the 4th beast, and then turn them into ten presidents of the USA that happened to be presidents BEFORE Bush Jr. who you were saying was the last president.

Of course you have revised your "studies" and jumped from the 1st beast to the second beast to account for Obama being president since Bush Jr.

However, by making the 1st beast four presidents
and by making the ten horns on the 1st beast ten presidents
you have made the first beast a symbol of the USA, not of Papal Rome.

Trump is now president -- for real.

Why wait for something that probably will not happen?
Obama has left the White House.

Obama being OUT of office, does not change the prophetic march leading to Christ's second coming. .

We need to get back to the historicist method to study prophecies. It is the only method whereby we can find the true meaning and see how the forces have been building up through the ages past right up to the present, and how the 'wound' is healing and the two "beasts" joining hands to bring in the last crises.

I wait Because the word of God is sure. (though our understanding is only partial with a more fuller understanding to come when the perfect fulfillment comes.)

The book of Daniel is for the last days.



Daniel 7 identifies the great kingdoms from Babylon to papal Rome. That is true and it is a historical fact that cannot be denied. We can see that by sight. But the portion of Daniel 7 that was sealed up until the last days has not been fulfilled and we must see that by faith. "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).

The battle that is raging is sight vs faith. By sight we see Babylon to Rome, but by faith I see Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, & Obama. By sight we see Obama has left office. By faith the prophecy stops at Obama.

So how should I reconcile what I see with what I read in the word of God? Some conclude that I have been reading things into the word. I read it and wonder aloud "does it mean this or that?" My musings appear to be speculation. But the word of God is sure. I follow it to Obama. As I read it Trump is though he has never been President.

My problem is: not understanding how the prophecy ends with Obama when he is not in office to fulfill that which is written of him.

The only solutions that I currently see are these 3:

1) If I have misread the prophecy, I must be entirely wrong (that is the view that my critics cherish)

2) Obama has to come back at a specific time that would make Trump's presidency as though it had never been. As I currently read it Obama will be in office when Christ comes and Obama will be destroyed by the brightness of His glory.

(There is no mechanism in place at this time to put him back in office. But there is a precedence of sorts. The former FBI director came to the end of his term and Congress enacted a law that specifically allowed him to continue after the time was up to give President Obama an opportunity to find a suitable replacement.So now that there is a special prosecutor looking into Trumps actions and VP Pence has now been implicated by some as a part of the scandal, the Congress might look at Obama, as a stabilizing stand in, to take us to the next election cycle. I don't know. I'm studying the prophecy and prayerfully WATCHING.)

3) Or Christ must come during Trump's accession year.



Historcism is not a salvation issue. It is a humanly devised methodology to aid in the explanation of Scripture. It is a framework to help feeble mortals make sense of the word of God that can be complicated. The historicist method is not infallible and as it is most often applied today it focuses on things that have been fulfilled in the past rather than what is upon us.

When the Adventist Pioneers used the historicist method, they applied it to present truth as well as past history. Thus based on the historicist method they could say before the fact in 1840 that Jesus would come in 1843 and before the fact they could repeat the message as it applied to 1844 using the historicist method. That is how I apply the historicist method; but my critics do not accept my application of the historicist method that is in full harmony with that of the pioneers.

The misapplication of the historicist method that is being advocated today by my critics makes the historicist method more like an amalgamation with Preterism that places the fulfilled prophecies of Daniel in the past while denying that they do such a thing. And they are in fact denying that the complete fulfillment of Daniel is upon us. When it comes to the correct application of the historicist method as it relates to Present Truth these so called historicists call the application of the historicist method as it relates to events in our immediate future as Futurism.

When we get back to the historicist method that the Adventist pioneers used you will be in harmony with my studies.

This is incorrect. There are 57 instances where 4437 is used in the Bible, 47 of those in the book of Daniel. It is correctly interpreted as "kingdom/s" in Daniel 7:14, 18, 23, and 27. I listed some context in my last post above.

This is correct. otherwise it is impossible for us to know the truth; the historicist method of Bible prophecy interpretation has never been replaced by anything that even comes close to the correct context and truths needed to understand prophecy. It has, of course, been supplanted by some in order to bolster their "private interpretations.

It is impossible to "Trump" Bible prophecy, correctly understood. (pun intended)

In the context Daniel 7... vss 1-14 is the vision and vss 15-28 is the interpretation.

When 7:17 explains that the 4-sea beasts are symbolic of the four endtime earth Presidents (Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II), these individuals can be inserted in place of the lion (Reagan) the bear (Bush I), the leopard (Clinton) and the indescribable beast (Bush II)

Then when the vision with the meaning inserted arrives at 7:11 " I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

In the context of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan and papal Rome this was the commencement of the Investigative Judgment. But in conjunction with Heaven's endtime interpretation this is Christ's Second Coming. "till the beast was slain" is the destruction of Bush II by Christ's glory at His Advent. BUT as the Roman beast had its pagan and papal phase, the Bush II beast has its Bush II and Obama phase.

7:12 "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

This applies to Reagan, Bush I and Clinton. They were allotted a season and a time. The year has 4 seasons (spring, summer, fall, and winter) each season is about 90 days (4 seasons times 90=360 days to make a prophetic year). A day in Bible prophecy is a year. 90-days (a season) is 90 years. A time is a year. The context is of 4 American Presidents allotted a season and a time/91 years.

Reagan was 90 on February 6, 2001. In his 91st year Bush II was in office. Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton were alive and out of office as the text stated: "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away [they were not p[residents at that time]: yet their lives were prolonged [they were still alive] for a season and time [at the end of the 91 years]."

9/11/01 happened in Reagan's 91st year that marked the end of the season and time.

And what was the status of the little horn pope (John-Paul II)?

1) John-Paul II had physically received a deadly wound that had been healed, he had received the healing of the 1798 secular papal wound from Reagan who recognized him as a head of state and sent an American Ambassador to Rome,

2) John-Paul II had received the healing of the 1798 spiritual papal wound from Bush II who received him as the "world's moral LEADER" akin to being leader or head of all the churches,

3) John-Paul II waged war against Communism ad won without firing a shot

4) John-Paul II spoke great things against the Most High when John-Paul II said Sunday is God's Sabbath

5) John-Paul II plucked up three American Presidents Reagan Bush I and Clinton so much so that the papal beast in Rev 13 looked like a lion's mouth (Reagan the great Orator) Bush I (bear) and Clinton (leopard's features)

6) John-Paul II died 42 months full months after 9/11/01
October, November, December 2001-----------3 months
2001--------------------------------------12 months
2003--------------------------------------12 months
2003--------------------------------------12 months
January, February, March 2005----3 months
he died April 2, 2005----------------42 full months after 9/11 on the Gregorian calendar. There is an interesting insight if you study the text and timing using the Hebrew calendar (it is to the very day).

And there is more but when the naysayers trample these pearls in the mud of unbelief, there will still be more evidence to show truth seekers that the complete fulfillment of Revelation 13 is upon us. Knowledge is increasing and that we know in part as the prophecies are about to be fulfilled and we know more as they are fulfilled (if we are praying, and studying and receiving the increase of knowledge as God's Spirit leads us into all truth).

Even though I am tempted to say something snide, I will not.

This word in both books have similar, or the same meanings in both books. It's the same word in the same language. Even though I think His child made a good observation about this word being from the same language which is different from Hebrew, I just don't understand how he interprets these words.

Alchemy,

The question before us is how to rightly divide the word of truth of truth?

Since Heaven's interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7:1-14 clearly states that the 4 sea beasts are 4 kings from the earth in the endtime, when the translators encountered a word that can specifically be related to the fourth king's reign, realm, or kingdom; did they get it right when they chose to focus on his kingdom rather than his reign?

As I read it the 4 kingdoms were the seal of authenticity on Daniel's prophecy. They are true. Each time a kingdom arose and fell, it confirmed that Daniel was a true prophet sent of God. But when God told Daniel to seal the book until the time of the end, that places that which was fulfilled in the past in a different light.

The kingdoms were fulfilled before the time of the end. And the true meaning of the book of Daniel was not to be understood until the time of the end which was not until after 1798-1844 when we arrived at the time of the end. Thus to focus on the vision as an interpretation of the interpretation rather than Heaven's interpretation of the vision is to keep the book sealed after it has been opened at Heaven's command.

Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are parallel chapters. They show the transition from Babylon to papal Rome and from papal Rome to America. America is the last power that will wage war against God's people and there is no blessing in not understanding who are the people that will be in power to do that which God has revealed centuries ago.

To argue that we do not need to know who the President will be when the Mark of the beast is enforced is to choose ignorance when light on this topic is available. God does not tell us things in His word that we do not need to know. If we truly understood Hid word, we would act differently and really get down to business in getting the gospel to the world. But while we are in as state of confusion about where we are in prophetic time, we put off things that should be done.

Laodiceans think that they have need of nothing. It is like saying that they have all the light that they want and refuse light that dose not fit into their neat little historicist point of view. Thus they forget that light will shine brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

Perhaps I failed to emphasize the word "cannot". Think if I put it in large blinking red letters it would make a difference?


I meant,
place 1: Ezra;
place 2: Daniel.

(Not talking about a total 2 instances within is supported by saying "4 occurrences in Ezra". By the way, I get a total of 43 instances. I wonder why the differences. Are you finding any besides in Ezra and Daniel?)

kland - yes, Wanderer misread you. There are 43 verses that have H4437, some verses use the word more that once, giving a total incidence of the word being 57. Example Daniel 2:44 uses it 3 times. And only Daniel and Ezra use the term, the latter using it 4 times.

Daniel 2 is an interesting example of the use of KINGDOM.

Thou art this head of gold (referring to a king)
After thee shall come another KINGDOM or REIGN?

Then Daniel 2 concludes "in the days of these kings" not in the days of these KINGDOMS.

Again Daniel writes about KINGS (with a word that has to be translated as KINGS) and the translators turn the focus from the reigns of these kings to their kingdoms when Daniel uses a word that can refer to the king's reign or his relm.

Why? Because they understood the meaning of the prophecy in 1612 which was 166 - 232 years before the meaning of the prophecy was unsealed.

Dan 2:44 kings - melek (4430)
Dan 2:39 kingdom - malkuw (4437)

Different words.

Guess you're trying to explain why the different words really mean the same word.

Could it be that "these kings" do not refer to all the kingdoms? Could it refer to the ones of iron mixed with clay?

Hard for someone to understand these things if they don't understand if the Greek Omega does NOT correspond to our "W".

When Daniel begins and ends his interpretation of the king's dream by talking about kings, it is interesting that the word that he uses that relates to the king's reign was not chosen by the translators while the meaning of realm or kingdom is the one that they choose. That is especially interesting since Daniel said that the gold, silver, brass, iron, and clay will all be smashed (broken together) all at the same time. The kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan and papal Rome NEVER existed all at the same time.

Hard for someone to understand these things if they don't understand if the Greek Omega DOES look like our "W".

His child, whatever you imagine about realms being kings themselves, it doesn't matter.

You emphasize "looking" like W. But it isn't.

It does NOT correlate to our W.

Prove otherwise, other than "looks".

Gamma looks like an inverted "L", but it's not an L.
Eta looks like an "H", but it's not an H.
And little eta looks like an "n", but it's not an n.
Lambda and Delta kind of looks like a "A", but they're not an A.
Rho looks like a "P", but it's not a P.
Chi looks like an "X", but it's not an X.
Mu looks like a "u", but it's not a u.
Nu looks like a "v", but it's not a v.
Xi might look like an "e", but it's not an e.
Sigma might look like an upside down "Q" or a "c", but it's not.
And likewise, Omega kind of, sort of looks like a "w", but it's NNNNOOOOOTTTTT a w!

https://www.quinapalus.com/gr1.html

It is clear from a study of Daniel 7 that the sea-beasts in Daniel's vision foreshadow kings from the earth that arise when Daniel stands in his lot.

A thorough study of the kings from the earth (America) aligns Reagan (lion/great orator with the lion's mouth in Rev 13), Bush I with the bear's feet, Clinton with the leopard (that aligns with the brass midsection of Daniel 2 - his midsection nearly got him put out of office), and Bush II & Obama align with the prophecy.

Jesus' comments give prophetic light. His parable of the 11th hour aligns the number of times the owner of the vineyard went out in search for workers with the number of Presidents from Reagan to Obama and the first is to be last and the last is to be first aligns with what appears to be written as an alpha and an omega in their names. Those are facts. And if the actual alpha and omega lettering is considered, The reversed sequencing that Jesus spoke of appears in the first President (Reagan) and the last President (Obama).

Rejecting the truth that the earth kings in the endtime align with the presidents (Reagan through Obama) and rejecting the appearance of the WA sequencing in their names and rejecting the OA sequencing in Reagan and Obama will only make it more difficult for you to accept more light on endtime events when it is presented.

There are so many more pearls that I certainly will not endeavor to share here at this time to have them trampled in the mud of unbelief.

As it is written

His Child, your imagination is based upon a fallacy. Until you admit you are wrong on the Greek letters, you will be nothing more than nonsensical. You are absolutely wrong on the Greek letters.

You have been Exposed!

kland,

Is that you speaking or the accuser of the brethren?

HC,

I'm going to point out another fallacy in your "reasoning". The ancient Greeks followed the same capitalization rules for proper names that English does. Thus,any name in the Greek that started with omega would have had the capitalized letter for omega which is Ω. I don't think we have had any presidents whose name starts with a horseshoe....

Sorry, but your wild stabs in the dark just do not make sense.

Edit. Sorry, but this software will not actually show Greek letters.

I believe it is important to clarify the difference between being Laodicean and being luke warm. They are not the same thing.

Laodicean is executing sound Biblical judgment whereas luke warm is being self-righteous and haughty, even though your knowledge may be great.

I was speaking as Jeremiah to Hananiah.

Still think Obama will be president by the end of the week?

One more day, kland.

1 year.

Well, we can set a new date of the equinox, or some other Babylonian date, or summer solstice, or if not by then, then by the end of the year....

Still waiting for His child to respond to the following question that was asked earlier in this thread:

Still think Obama will be president by the end of the week?

Seeing that Obama isn't the last president of the USA, what about Trump?

Is he now going to be the last president of the USA???

you might be blessed by a study of transliteration.

To be Laodicean while thinking that ones self is among the elect that hears and follows Christ's counsel to the Laodiceans, will have a disastrous outcome.

That counsel does not work when it is Hananiah speaking to Jeremiah.

Praise God that Knowledge has increased!

Jewish New Year was on March 29 this year, so no need to try to change anything regarding that date in my biblical calculations. Worked for Pope Benedict being a short timer, but it was not rightly understood or applied regarding President Obama.

I did not come online to visit this group for several months (my spirit could not bear the constant negativity...it was not a spirit of study or encouragement but of contention). Thus I missed an entire page of posts on this thread ... Until now.

I caught them all up. But if I missed others send me a PM and I will try to answer those as well.

I answered this question for you on the thread "A woman now rides the beast"

Daryl, it would be worth your time to read my book "The Day Dawns" send me a pm with an address and I will send you an ebook. It is 440 pages, but though I do not claim to have perfect understanding, there is scriptural and Spirit of prophecy evidence that is worthy of consideration.

Not sure if you are still confused on the Greek letter, Omega, but could you demonstrate you understand transliteration of the Greek letter?

Transliteration is the process of expressing the sound of how a word or letter is pronounced in the source language, using the alphabet of the target language.

For example --
We have a number of Ukrainians in our community.
They like to sing a few Ukrainian songs in church and invite us (who are not Ukrainian) to sing with them.

Ever try to read Ukrainian? They use the Cyrillic alphabet, thus those of use illiterate in that form of writing have not a clue what sounds those funny shapes make.

So we have to transliterate (write the Ukrainian words originally written in the Cyrillic alphabet, into the English alphabet without changing the sound of the words) That is, we use English letters that make the same SOUND as the Cyrillic characters, this enables us to read/pronounce the Ukrainian words and sing in Ukrainian.

The same is seen in interlinear Bible resources.

They give the Greek spelling in Greek letters
underneath the give the same word using the English alphabet so we can read and pronounce it.

That is transliteration.
It's all about reproducing the SOUND of the original in the common alphabet of the reader.

"Transliteration definition, to change (letters, words, etc.) into corresponding characters of another alphabet or language"

The fulfillment of the 11th hour parable of Jesus has transliterated the W in the Presidents into an omega:

Ronald Wilson Reagan
George Herbert Walker Bush
William Jefferson Clinton
George Walker Bush

Transliteration is the process of expressing the sound of a word or letter from the source language, using the alphabet of the target language.


The sound of the Greek "omega" is NOT the sound of our "W"