Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?

I think I would go with EGW over this person, as a person who has strong Biblical support.

Everybody being saved, as in nobody being lost, doesn't have any Biblical support.

If anybody clearly contradicts the Bible, this Dr. Stephen E. Jones person definitely does.

As this part deserves a thread of its own, I have used this post to begin this new topic.

How does he explain the following passage?

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

And, how does he or Elle explain the following passage?

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:9-10, 14-15)

As Elle seems to believe that this person's belief about all being saved and nobody perishing is Biblical, I am also interested in Elle's reply to the references in the previous two posts.

Matt 7 "the many" go to destruction and only "the few" get eternal life.

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed.

Gee ... another topic for me to respond!!! I'm sorry for not having the time right now to prepare a reply on those two texts specifically. I will come back later on.


I have accumulated over 30 text in the NT that says that God will save all mankind. I will provide them later on also. In the OT there are much more. All of these I have found by personal studies and way before I knew anything about Dr. Jones or Myron.

However, the best texts are found in the Jubilee law. I hope you don't mind me cut and copying Dr. Jones explaination :
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/coldfusion/Chapter.cfm?CID=196
CHAPTER 2
The Law of Jubilee

Even as Jesus Christ is the central Person of all history, the law of Jubilee is the most fundamental law of all creation. The law of Jubilee is the basis of forgiveness and grace. It is the purpose and goal of the law itself. It compels a climax of earth history and a full end of the dominion of darkness and sin. The basic law of Jubilee is recorded in Leviticus 25:8-13.

8 You are also to count off seven Sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven Sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

When Israel conquered the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua, he divided the land among all the families in Israel. This was their inheritance in the land, and no one (other than God Himself) could lawfully deprive them of their inheritance. However, if drought struck the land, or some other type of disaster, the families might lose their land. They would sell the land to someone else until the year of Jubilee.

The value of the land was measured in terms of its ability to produce barley, and an “omer” of barley (about eight bushels) had a fixed value of fifty shekels (about thirteen ounces) of silver (Leviticus 27:16). In selling land the buyer was to pay a fair price according to the amount of barley the land could normally produce from the present time to the year of Jubilee. Of course, they could not count the Sabbath years, when the land was to rest and could not produce a crop.

When the fair price had been calculated, the sale was made, and the new owners began to farm the property. The previous owners generally found employment on another estate, unless they were hired to work their own land as laborers for the new owner. It was the right of the original land inheritor to redeem his land at any time if he was able to do so. With each passing year the redemption price of the land was decreased proportionately, because, as we said, the land was not valued as land per se but in terms of its harvests. This eliminated any land speculation.

The law of God forbade the outright sale of one's land inheritance, because the land belongs to God. All land sales were temporary. Today we would call them leases. Leviticus 25:23-28 says,

23 The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me. 24 Thus for every piece of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. 25 If a fellow countryman of yours becomes so poor he has to sell part of his property, then his nearest kinsman is to come and buy back what his relative has sold. 26 Or in case a man has no kinsman, but so recovers his means as to find sufficient for its redemption, 27 then he shall calculate the years since its sale and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it, and so return to his property. 28 But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of Jubilee; but at the Jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.

No man could permanently lose his land inheritance through debt. At the Jubilee, the land would revert back to him, and any remaining debts were to be cancelled.

The Lawful Right of Redemption

Verse 25 above says also that it was the will of God that the debtor's nearest kinsman should redeem his brother when possible. In fact, the law specifically states in the NASV that “his nearest kinsman IS TO COME AND BUY BACK what his relative has sold.” We know that the law is not only a moral document, but is also prophetic, because this is the law that Jesus performed perfectly. It was therefore prophesying that Jesus Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would come to buy back everything that was sold when Adam sinned. The Scriptures cannot be broken. If the redeemer has the power to redeem, the law says he is commanded by the will of the Father in heaven to redeem what his brother has lost.

We are His brethren. Therefore, the law demands that Jesus Christ redeem all that was lost in Adam. The only relevant question is whether or not Jesus Christ really did this or not. I believe He did, for the blood has never lost its power, nor did Jesus fail in any point of law to do all that the Father asked of Him. The law was fully satisfied.

The law of redemption was closely tied to the law of Jubilee. Essentially, redemption of the inheritance was always possible prior to the year of Jubilee. If the debtor somehow could scrape together enough money to redeem himself, he always had the lawful right to do so. A near kinsman also had the lawful right to redeem the debtor at any time. We read in Leviticus 25:47-55.

47 Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold himself to him up to the year of Jubilee; and the price of his sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that he shall be with him. 51 If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption; 52 and if few years remain until the year of Jubilee, he shall so calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount for his redemption. 53Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. 55 For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

It is important to understand the law of redemption, because it has everything to do with God's plan for the redemption of both Israel and the world. A friend does not have the right of redemption; only a near kinsman does. This means that if a man sells himself and his family to work for another man, his friend may redeem him—but only if the master allows it. The friend does not have the RIGHT of redemption. Instead, the master has the right to keep the new bondservant in his employ. But if a near kinsman decides to redeem the debtor, the master has no choice in the matter, for the kinsman has the right of redemption.

Jesus came to earth to redeem His people (Luke 1:68). He did not come in the form of an angel, but was born a man, specifically of the seed of Abraham. He did this in order to have the lawful right of redemption. If He had come as an angel, the divine law would have ruled that He was only a FRIEND of sinners, whose sin had given them a debt they could not pay, men who had lost their inheritance through Adam's sin.

Jesus was indeed a friend of sinners, but He chose to be more than that. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for Israel, He had to be more than a mere friend. He had to be born of the seed of Abraham. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for all mankind, He had to be more than an angelic friend. He had to be born of flesh and blood. He qualified on both counts, as we read in Hebrews 2:11-17.

11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying [in Psalm 22:22], "I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, In the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise." 13 And again [in 2 Samuel 22:3], "I will put My trust in Him." And again [in Isaiah 8:18], "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." 14 Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

We conclude, then, that Jesus Christ was born of flesh and blood in order to have the lawful right of redemption of the whole world. He was likewise born specifically of the seed of Abraham in order to have the lawful right of redemption for the House of Israel. These are separate promises, but they are based upon the same law of redemption. Israel was to be redeemed from the hand of her enemies (Assyria) and would ultimately return to God. The world of flesh and blood, by the same law, will also be redeemed from the final and ultimate enemy—death—for death does not hold the right of redemption and has no choice but to turn every captive loose at Jesus Christ's demand.

The Redeemed Serve a New Master

In the law of redemption, the redeemed bondservant does not have the lawful right to be his own boss or the master of his own destiny. As we quoted earlier in Leviticus 25:53,

53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight.

A redeemer is one who pays the price of redemption for the bondservant. In essence, he buys the bondservant from the master, who is a “stranger,” or foreigner, and who is likely to abuse the man and oppress him. The near kinsman is commanded to redeem his brother on the grounds that he will treat the bondservant in a lawful manner with kindness and consideration. This means that the bondservant merely changes masters. Redemption does NOT mean the bondservant is now free to do his own will. The Apostle Paul discusses this point of law in Romans 6, the chapter where he discusses the supposed right of the redeemed Christian to continue in sin that grace may increase.

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . . 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Paul's discussion here is based upon the law of redemption. The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is, sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our Master. That means we are now accountable to His law and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that “sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John 2:3 and 4,

3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation. He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately. They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54,

54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.

What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans 8:19-25 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be se t free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

The law of Jubilee mandates the setting free of all creation at some point in history. Personally, I believe this will come after 49,000 years of history. The lowest level of Jubilee came after 49 years (Lev. 25:8). The trumpet for the Jubilee was blown on the Day of Atonement, which was ten days into the fiftieth year (Leviticus 25:9).

In prophetic history we see higher-level Jubilees, such as Daniel's seventy weeks (of years), which is actually ten Jubilee cycles, or 490 years. Jesus set us free on the Cross at the end of Daniel's seventy weeks in 33 AD. (See our book, Secrets of Time, chapter 9.)

The forty-Jubilee cycle of 1,960 years is also important, as is the fifty-Jubilee cycle of 2,450 years. These subjects are covered extensively in Secrets of Time, but are beyond the scope of this book. Yet the final Creation's Jubilee, I believe, is 49,000 years. I cannot prove this, of course, nor is it critical to do so. It is sufficient to know that the law of God demands limits on how long a debtor can be enslaved, or how long a sinner can be in bondage to his sin.

All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1 and 2,

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

All Land Belongs to God

The law of Jubilee depends upon a deeper law, which we quoted earlier. It is found in Leviticus 25:23, where God says, "the land is mine." For this reason, it could not be sold permanently, but always had to revert back to the original owners at the year of Jubilee. Adam was made of the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7). Man was a part of God's creation and land inheritance. God's intent was to build a house for Himself in earth, and that house is man himself.

Because man is a created being, he does not own himself. God owns all that He has created. All the land belongs to God. It is true that man has been given a level of authority, but man does not have ultimate sovereignty over his "land," that is, himself. For this reason, man has been given the right to sell his land temporarily. He may sell himself into sin for a while, even for a lifetime. But he has never been given the right to sell his land for all time. His land will always have to revert back to God at the Jubilee.

In other words, no man can be so great a sinner that he cannot be set free at the year of Jubilee. No man can go so far into debt that he cannot be set free in the year of Jubilee. No man has either the authority or the ability to incur a debt that is greater than the year of Jubilee can remedy. This is the law of God, not man's law.

When man sinned, the "land" was sold. That is, Adam and his children and his entire estate were sold into sin. In essence, God lost His inheritance in the earth. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem His lost inheritance. He came as a near Kinsman in order to secure the RIGHT of redemption. By His own blood, He paid the full price of the sin of the entire world from Adam to the end of time. The only question remaining is whether Jesus Christ loves the world enough to actually take advantage of His legal rights.

The answer is found in John 3:16, "God so loved the world. . ." The real question is this: If Jesus Christ had the power to save all men, would He do so? Of course He would, because He loves all that He created. Well, Jesus does have the power and the wisdom to save all men. His blood--the payment for the sin of the world--is worth far more than the sin-debt of all mankind put together. More than that, the law is on His side, because He has the right of redemption. That means He can redeem all if He wants to do so.

Suppose you, dear reader, had a family of loved ones who had been sold into slavery. If you came, having the legal right of redemption and paid the full price of their redemption, would you be satisfied if the slave master accepted your money, but then gave you only one or two of them? Of course not. If you truly loved them, you would demand all that you paid for. But even if your loved ones refused to be redeemed, this could only delay the process until the year of Jubilee. Remember Leviticus 25:54,

54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.

Though the rulers of men and nations have consistently refused to declare a Jubilee over its people, God is not a man that He should lie. He will always follow His own law, regardless of the refusal of men to be obedient.

The Judgment of God in the Final Age

The law of God demands the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). The divine judgments of God are not eternal, as men define eternal. They are aionian, as the Greek text says. They pertain only to an eon (aion), or an age. The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 is the same as the "fiery stream" mentioned in Daniel 7:9-11. Daniel tells us that the fire comes from God's throne. A throne is an ancient symbol of law. When a king sits upon a throne, he is officially administering the law or its judgments. God is the King of Creation, and He judges all according to His law. Therefore, the fire is the divine law, as Moses tells us in Deuteronomy 33:2,

2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The "fire" of the divine law judges no man for any crime by sentencing them to burn in a literal fire. All sin is reckoned as a debt that is owed to the victims of injustice. If the sinner cannot pay the restitution, he is to be a bondservant until the debt is paid. The believers will rule over them. That is, the believers will be given authority over the sinners (debtors), and be responsible to teach them the righteousness and character of God. For this reason, the prophet tells us in Isaiah 26:9,

9 . . . For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inh abitants of the world learn righteousness.

This is the "fire" of the divine law. It is not torture or punishment; it is justice. God's judgments are corrective in nature. With God, there is no endless punishment without mercy. Judgment always ends in grace, for that is the law of Jubilee.

Regardless of the precise nature of God's judgment upon sinners in that age, we know from the law of Jubilee that God's judgments are age-abiding, not everlasting, as some have translated the Greek word, aionian. Proper translations of this term are found in Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible. They understand aionian in the same way that the early Church fathers did, for their writings often spoke of the judgments to come as being temporary and limited to an age.

The law of Jubilee demands an end to all liability for sin (debt) at some point in the future. The law of Jubilee demands that all debts be cancelled at the end of that final age. Then all creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

The Restoration of All Things

When God restores all things, then will Jesus' words be fulfilled in John 12:32, 33,

32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Likewise, the words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled in 1Corinthians 15:22-28,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order . . . . 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

Even as in Adam all mankind died, so also in Christ, the Second Adam, all mankind will be made alive--but not all at once. Some will come into life in the first resurrection, others at the general resurrection, but all others at the great Jubilee of creation. Paul speaks of this day also in Colossians 1:16-20,

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. . . 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Through the Logos, the Word, Jesus Christ, all things were created (John 1:3), and through Him, all things will be reconciled to Himself. There will be nothing left outside of His dominion in the end, as we read in Hebrews 2:8 and 9,

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

In this manner He "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers," as the Apostle Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:10. Those who are saved before the creation Jubilee are indeed greatly blessed and will rule in His Kingdom. Yet in the end He is also the Savior of ALL men, not just of the believers. For this reason, all creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19-21), knowing that these sons are but the firstfruits of creation (James 1:18). Paul says that the firstfruits sanctify the whole harvest. After the firstfruits were given to God, this signaled the beginning of the general harvest of the whole field. The field is the world (Matthew 13:39).

So also John sees all of creation rejoicing in the end. Revelation 5 says,

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

This will never happen apart from the law of Jubilee, for most of creation yet remains in enmity against God. They are the ones in need of the Jubilee, for, unlike true believers, they do not take advantage of the law of redemption. The time of redemption ends with the Jubilee. And so we urge all those who hear the Word of God to believe in Jesus Christ and learn what great salvation He has given to men. Our message is that of the Apostle Paul, which he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5,

17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them [the world], and He has committed to us [Christians] the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We have been given the ministry of reconciliation with a message of good news to give the world. It is NOT the bad news of eternal torment or damnation, but the good news that God has reconciled the world through Christ, who has paid the price for their deliverance and salvation. This is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who was lifted up on the cross, and therefore will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. This is not wishful thinking. It is prophecy. It is a statement of intent. It is His promise to us and to the world. Let us all rejoice in this good news of God's grace.

Elle,

That is an interesting study, and the logic at its core seems very supportable. However, there is a fundamental flaw in the way the application of the logic is made. Unfortunately, that flaw has affected the conclusions to the point where they become false. The flaw?

It is in this statement: "We are his brethren." That statement is true, if applied to the right group of people. However, that statement is false if applied to the entire population of earth.

What makes us brethren of Christ? Jesus was called the "Son of God," right? In order for us to be "brothers" of Christ, we need to also be children of God. This is the crucial point--are all people the children of God?

Some people like to think so. However, the New Testament is especially clear on this point, that not all are.

As pertains to the Jubilee types, I think the study you've brought is excellent. Jesus, our kinsman-redeemer, will most certainly redeem His kinsmen. Praise the Lord! But who are His kinsmen?

The following table identifies Jesus' kinsmen.

Identifying the Children of God
Scripture	Identification Marks
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)	They have received Jesus and believed on His name.
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:35-36)	They are accounted worthy and are resurrected.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matthew 5:9)	They are peacemakers.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)	They are led by the Spirit of God.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:8)	They are NOT children of the flesh.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)	They have faith in Christ Jesus.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world. (Philippians 2:12-15)	They work without murmuring and disputing. They work toward salvation with fear and trembling. They are blameless and harmless, without rebuke, while others are crooked and perverse.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:9-10)	They do not commit sin who are born of God. Those who hate their brethren or work unrighteousness are NOT children of God, but rather the children of the devil.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:2)	They keep God's commandments.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)	They have overcome the world by faith.

It is precisely because not all people are already Christ's kinsmen that we have been given the Gospel Commission. We have been tasked with the great responsibility of witnessing to our neighbors, and encouraging them to accept, believe, and obey Christ for themselves--lest they, with the devil and his angels, are eternally lost.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I would still be interested in seeing the list of 30 salvation texts we were promised. Texts like those are always encouraging.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC none of the text you provide does say that Jesus is not the kinsmen of the unbeliever.

Jesus came as a near kinsman not only to the house of Israel(being born from Abraham seed) but also as a near kinsman to all “flesh and blood” (Heb 2:14-18), by this is what makes Him, a brother to all the people of the world. He did not come as an angel which would not make him our kinsman, but as a man. As Adam was the kinsman of all the world, so was Jesus, the Last Adam.

Please note that Jesus died on the cross when we were still enemies of G-d.

The Laws of redemption given in the laws of Moses(Lev 25:47-49) does not require a slave to be good to be redeemed. It is the right of a near kinsman to purchase the debt of his kinsmen. Just because your debt is purchased by your kinsmen doesn’t mean your debt is cancel. No. The only thing that changes is that you work for your kinsmen instead of the hard-slavemaster(sin). Your kinsmen will treat you better than the hard-slavemaster. So you remain a slave(servant) but a servant of Christ which His yoke is lighter.

As far as I understand, being a kinsman gives you the right of redemption. The timing of redemption is not define, nor do I see that it has to be in our lifetime. We know that the cross extends from the beginning covering Adam and Eve. And it covers the future until the completion of the Jubilee. Curently we are only on the end of year 6th (6000 years) of the Jubilee. The coming millennium is a sabbatical millennium where the slaves have a rest, then they resume working off their debt on the 8th year until fully paid if it happens before the end of the 49th year.

Then when comes the Jubilee, whoever was not redeemed, or if redeemed but their debt is not fully paid to their kinsman, by the time of Jubilee, all debts shall be cancelled. This is LAW and G-d made it mandatory to cancel all debts at that point.

I wasn't always vigilent in recording texts as I encountered them especially those in the OT when I started to study the laws. So many are missing.

This is what I have registered in my study notebook up to now pertaining to the

NT : Acts 3:25; Gal 3:8; Act 3:21, Ep 1:9,10; Col 1:20; Rm 8:19-23; 2Co 5:19; Rm 5:17-19; 1Co 15:22; Rm 11:32; 1Co 15:24-28; Ph 2:9-11; 1Tim 4:10; 1Tim 2:1-6; 1Jn 4:14; Jn 3:17; 1Jn 2:2; Jn 1:29; 1Jn 3:8; Rev 21:4,5; Jn 3:35; Jn 6:37-39; Jn 12:32; Heb 13:5; Luk 19:10; Rm 8:38,39;

OT : Gn 12:3, 22:18; Ps 148:6; Ps 82:8; Ps 36:6; Ps 103:6; Is 1:27; Is 26:9; Ecc 3:14; Hab 1:12; Num 14:21; Is 45:23-28; Ps 94:10; Ps 51:13; Lev 25; Is 32:16,17; Hs 10:12; Is 2:4; Mic 4:3; etc...

BTW I answered your other post before this one. see it on page 1.

Ok, let's backtrack a step and make sure that we are on the same page. Let us look at the issue of "brethren" or "kinsmen" to see if all people are of the same stock. Are all people in the same "brotherhood" or family according to the Bible?

Here are some texts which help to define the relationship which exists between God's people and the rest of the world.



Those verses indicate that there is a difference between God's people and others. The "stranger" was not a "brother," and it is expressly said that a different form of relationship should or could be had with the stranger than one would have with his brother.

Now, although those texts might establish that not all people are considered our kinsmen, they still leave the question about God a little open, considering that God is in a different category to ourselves. The following passage, taken from the first verses of Malachi, gives us God's position in this.



So the Lord does not claim to treat even legitimate brothers (according to the flesh) the same, nor to love them the same. Will God redeem Esau whom he hates and destroys?

It seems one cannot both redeem and destroy at the same time, right? One cannot be both good and bad at the same time. We have to make some clear distinctions here, and the Bible is clear with us. God does not accept all people as His. God makes clear distinctions, and the line falls between those who love and obey Him, who put their faith in Him, and those who reject Him, who have no special love for nor trust in God. That line of distinction is clear in many places throughout the Word of God.

Paul, in the New Testament, continues the distinction, speaking of "false brethren" in Galatians, and his blessing to the Ephesians stands in stark contrast to verses in Isaiah:



Do the wicked have love, peace, and faith? Obviously not. Would you agree, Elle, that some are righteous and some are wicked, and that the two are not the same? If so, does it not appear that a clear distinction is made between these two in terms of God's relationship to/with them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle, will Satan and the evil angels be in heaven, too? That is, will they be saved and inherit eternal life?

G-d did not reveal much concerning the angels. No one really knows and all we can do is speculate. The Bible is written for the salvation of man which Yah has revealed that all will be saved.

Saying something doesn't make it so, however pleasant it might be and however much we might fancy the idea.

God has never said that all will be saved. Quite the contrary, the Bible speaks of people being lost, destroyed, damned, etc., all of which are opposite to that of being "saved."

What God has told us is that He has the power to save anyone. It's unfortunate that many do not choose to allow Him to save them. It's even less fortunate that some of these have had the truth, have wanted very much to be saved, and probably thought they would be saved, only to find out too late that they were not.

A verse comes to mind from the Bible that speaks of some who are not saved.


We are in the time of harvest now. The final harvest is almost ready, and the latter rain is coming. Are we saved?


Salvation is not to be taken lightly. It is a serious matter. We are to work out our salvation "with fear and trembling."

None of these texts imply that it is safe to simply coast through life trusting that in the end we will all go to the same place--we'll all be saved--so it doesn't matter what we do. That is pure satanic pablum. Satan knows how much of an uphill battle the Christian soldier faces, and he knows that some will be tempted to believe a lie that would ease their burden. If they could be persuaded to accept that everyone will be saved, they would relax their guard, and oppose him less fiercely. Satan wins to have us believe that all will be saved.

Consider well these things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, even if the Bible makes a distinction between a clan and another(Jacob vs. Essau, Israelites vs. foreigners/nations ) it is irrelevant when we compare to Jesus’ right of redemption. You are comparing man with man, man versus a clan. We are all sons of fallen men, whereas Jesus is, directly from conception, the son of God AND the sons of fallen men. Jesus is the only man that could be an ADAM. So Jesus cannot be compare as man versus man, but Adam versus Last Adam. Adam was a son of God as he was created directly from God and did not descend from another man. The uniqueness of the nature of Jesus’ birth makes him NEAR kinsman(flesh & Blood) of all man on earth that gives Him that right of redemption.

Paul makes the point that Jesus did not come as an angel, but "flesh and blood" which this makes him a "brother" to all man. I do not fully understand why it is so, but for sure I know Jesus fulfilled all the Laws given to Moses including the law of redemption.


Near Kinsman Define
In the lower level when comparing man with man, according to the law of redemption stated in Lev 25:23-55 not all Israelites were near kinsmen among each other. Even if both where of the same tribe. Near kinsmen where define by approximate family. Lev 25:49 “49 Either his uncle or his uncle's son may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him;” All were kinsman as all came from Jacob or as far as Adam, but according to the law of redemption, you needed to be a NEAR kinsman(uncle, cousins, or “nigh of kin” could be 2nd cousins) to have the right of redemption. We have the story of Ruth and Boaz where Boaz was considered a near kinsman(maybe a 2nd cousin), but someone was closer that had the first right to purchase Ruth.

The Right of Redemption
A near kinsman that had the right of redemption, could buy the debt of his kinsman and the slave-master has no choice to release the slave because it is LAW. However, if you are not a near kinsman, then the slave-master is not oblige to release the slave. This is why, according to the LAW it is important that Jesus was a near kinsman to ALL MEN on EARTH so He could exercise His RIGHTS according to the law and purchase any man if he desire to and the slave-master has no choice to release his slave.

NT : Act 3:25; Gal 3:8; Act 3:21, Ep 1:9,10; Col 1:20; Rm 8:19-23; 2Co 5:19; Rm 5:17-19; 1Co 15:22; Rm 11:32; 1Co 15:24-28; Ph 2:9-11; 1Tim 4:10; 1Tim 2:1-6; 1Jn 4:14; Jn 3:17; 1Jn 2:2; Jn 1:29; 1Jn 3:8; Rev 21:4,5; Jn 3:35; Jn 6:37-39; Jn 12:32; Heb 13:5; Luk 19:10; Rm 8:38,39;

OT : Gn 12:3, 22:18; Ps 148:6; Ps 82:8; Ps 36:6; Ps 103:6; Is 1:27; Is 26:9; Ecc 3:14; Hab 1:12; Num 14:21; Is 45:23-28; Ps 94:10; Ps 51:13; Lev 25; Is 32:16,17; Hs 10:12; Is 2:4; Mic 4:3; etc...

What have you done with these texts GC? Especially Is 45:23-28. Be careful.

Look at the word abad (H6)and apollumi(G622 ) both these words means destroy and lost. When we reason, often we relate to words according to the world definition and philosophy. In our mind “destroy” means “finish”, “not repairable” etc. This doesn’t mean that this is G-d’s definition and perspective of it. Jesus told 3 parables one after the other about the “lost”(appolumi) sheep, the “lost”(appolumi) coin and the prodigal son, in all 3 parables, all were found. G-d’s plan of salvation involves a “destruction” or “lost” process before someone can be “saved” or “found”.

When studying, we should diligently always seek G-d definition of words and not accept and always put doubt on the current worlds definition that was given to us. If we do not seek G-d’s definition, then we will find many contradiction in the Bible.

Yes, anyone breaking the law will be judge with fire. Some are judge today, some later depending whom the Father chooses and sends to Jesus. Jesus said “AV Lk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!”

Jesus calls the law a “fire”. Fire is the biblical symbol of the judgment of G-d’s law.(Deut 33:2; Jer 23:29) It was never meant to be a literal fire that tortures people. G-d’s law does not prescribe punishment, but restitution.

The “flogging” here was aimed towards the believers. Some knew the Lord's will while others did not, but both were rebellious. The flogging is in proportion to what they knew and how much was ask from the Lord. The flogging is prescribed here as the correction -- a form of "fire" aimed towards children/believers (Prov 13:24) that was concluded rather quickly. This did not bring death and it was strictly limited according to the law to forty lashes(Deut. 25:1-3).

G-d corrects those He loves. Not only that He loves the Church by which He has chosen to put them through Jesus' baptism of fire first. But G-d also loves the World and will judge them also in later time. John 3:17. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world [merely] to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

G-d’s judgments are remedial, Prov 22:15 “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him.” That is why G-d said in AV Hab 1:12 . [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.”

Elle,

Simple question. Why will there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when the "wicked" learn that they are forever lost--if actually, they are saved?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I appreciate the question GC. I just read all the texts relating to "gnashing of teeth and the weeping". None of those text says they are “forever lost”. The “darkness” skotos(g4655) root word is skia(4639) “shade” or a shadow fig. darkness of error or an adumbration. It does not denote the lake of fire, but I believe it is a figure of the state of their mind when they realize the truth during judgment.

All these texts are directed to the “wicked”, but not to the “wicked unbelievers”, but to the “wicked believers” or as it is worded “the unfaithful servants”.

Jesus Correcting Superiority thinking of the Jewish
Mat 8:8 “The centurion…Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed….12.the children of the kingdom shall be cast out….there shall be weeping and gnashing…” Jesus made this comment to the disciples as they were surprised that Jesus said that he “have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel”. That couldn’t be possible according to the mind set of the Jews and of the Israelites of old who thought of themselves superior and blessed over all other nations. Jesus read their mind and made that comment that judgment has come and G-d makes no favoritism. The house of Judah will be judge and Jesus pronounced it when he found no fruit in the fig tree and in the parable of the G-d’s vineyard.

Not caring for G-d's Wedding
Mat 22:13 “4... come to the marriage.... 6 ..the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them....8…wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy….13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him in to outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gna….”

This parable says very clearly that the wedding hall will be filled with others and the "chosen" servants of G-d will be thrown in the outer darkness. G-d will not spare them and will give the kingdom of God to others.

The Evil Servant that opresses others and does what he please
Mat 24:51 48 “But …evil servant shall say… My lord delayeth 49.…begin to smite his fellowservants… 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gna….” Again this is directed to a “servant” (a believer) who is oppressing others.

The Israelites were pretentious in thinking that they could do anything and G-d would always spare them because they were the “chosen” ones. So in many war, the Israelites thought that G-d would be on their “side” and they had the right to rule others and to oppress them. They thought they were immune to G-d's law and G-d would never depart from them. However Jesus said very clearly in Is 5:1-7 and in Mat 21:33-45 with the vineyard keepers that G-d would come to judge them and give the kingdom of God to another.

We as SDAs have the same attitude as the Jewish nation and the Israelites in the OT times. We think that we are the “chosen” ones and we can go on being fruitless. Just as He did with the Israelites and the Jews, will be done to any other fruitless churches in our days. When Jesus will come with His coat dipped in blood(as a Joseph Type) judging all people with his two-edges tongue, SDAs will not be spared as well as any other denominations and will be judge. The truth will exposed their fruitless and unworthy heart, and the wicked believers with dissapointment of mind will be "gnashing of teeth and weeping”.

I see the "gnashing of teeth and the weeping" as a figure of a too late awaken conscience realizing they lost their privilege to be co-heir with Christ and rule the earth over all nations.

So are the wicked believers worse than the wicked unbelievers in your view?

And why would anything be "too late" if everyone will be saved?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle,

You mentioned the lake of fire in one of your posts.


This would indicate that there will be people whose names will not be written in the book of life and will be cast into the lake of fire, which the 14th verse refers to as the 2nd death.

What, therefore, is your understanding of the lake of fire and more particularly its reference to it being the 2nd death?

Also, what is your understanding of the 2nd death?

No, we’re all the same. We were all vessels of dishonor once, however, G-d has chosen some to become vessels of honor by putting them in the fire before hand. That’s the only difference. No man should elevate or think of himself better than another. G-d needs both types of vessels and both have very important roles in His plan of salvation --“all things work together for good”. (see Rom 9-11)

Could you bring forth some specific texts denoting as being “too late”?

It’s better to look at specific texts, however, I have already answered you in the end of my previous post.
Losing their priviledge to be Co-heir with Christ(some texts: Heb 1:2; Ps 82:8;, Eph 1:21-23; Ps 37:9; Ps 2:8; Ps 22:27-28; Ps 67: 4; Ps 72:7-11; Dn 7:14, 18, 22, 27; Is 61:6; Is 2:4; Mic 4:3; 1Co 6:2,3; Heb 2:5-6; Rev 1:6; 5:10; 20:4,6; etc…) is what they have lost, but not eternal life.

Also, this doesn't mean that G-d doesn't have another “portion” (or inheritance) reserve for them (the wicked believers and unbelievers) -- “…and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites” Mat 24:51 The text implies that there is a portion reserve for them.

Elle,

I am still waiting for you to reply to this post quoted below:

If anyone would just read John 3:16, it should clear it up.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Now. I see some as having 'everlasting life' and some that perish. What do you see?

There is also this one:

According to Sock Puppet & Scripture it is not possible that everyone will be saved...
...According to Sock Puppet it was a real possibility that NO ONE would have been saved.
...If creature christ would have sinned & lost his salvation.
...His tomb as well as all the others would have NEVER been opened.

That equates to GAME OVER.

You have made Ellen White into a sock puppet, which I agree with Kland it is quite derogatory. I do agree that at time G-d will talk through a person in such fashion, just as He has done with the donkey; however it is only in exception.

Ellen and James has never encouraged your extreme position. Nor have they encouraged to rely on Ellen's words to settle doctrinal grounds. I recommend you watch this video. FP782 - The Great Gulf Joseph Smith vs. Ellen White on the Relation of the Gift of Prophecy

http://betterlifetv.tv/watch_videos_now.php?ProgID=15

As for your false statement that there are no scriptures saying that all would be saved, I see you were too lazy to check the scriptures I have provided nor read the Jubilee Law .

Do your christian duty as Ellen and James told us to do, and test all things by studying your Bible including current Church beliefs less you find yourself not following Jesus but some form of idol that you have fabricated yourself. We all do that. We all have idols in our hearts that we elevate above the leading of G-d which blinds us and grinds us down. At least if we can recognize them, then we can be on guard about them being in the way and work with G-d to remove them.

Harold, that text doesn't say what your are seeing and implying. It says explicitly "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish".

We know that everyone will come to believe in Him, not necessary in this lifetime but for sure at the Great White Throne of Judgment because
1)G-d has sworn that everyone will worship him and will pledge allegiance to him(Is 45:23).
2)Jesus said that if he be "lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." 1Jn 12:32

Harold what are you doing with these texts plus all the other texts I have provided that says all will be saved??? Have you swept them under the carpet?

There's much to consider and relook at what we thought we knew that maybe we were blinded. I was and I'm still am in many areas as I just started to revisit all doctrines and there's much to study. It's time to get some eye salve from Jesus. He has promised us to personally teach us the truth 1Jn2:27.

I have answered GC about this in page 2. Here is what I said

I understand that it was just a note and I didn't give much details about it as if you look up those words yourself, you will see what I mean. I have elaborated on this in one or two other topics in this forum in the pass which I don't remember where. I'll work on something later on, but first I need to finish answering your other post reply about the lake of fire and 2nd death.

This is getting beyond the scope of this topic as each of these requires extensive Biblical study, but I understand that some brief investigation is necessary.

As for the question of this topic "Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?" I believe that I have provided sufficient Biblical support with the foundational Type of the Jubilee Law that anyone can see that potentially that it was in G-d's plan to save everyone.

I haven't swept anytning under any carpet. you obviously have. Who do you think the ones raised in Revelation 20 that outnumber the sand of the sea are? The ones that follow Satan to the Holy City and are 'consumed'??

I never made her into one - God did...
...And Sister White accepted that lot.



Sister White said that to reject her was to reject the One who sent her...
...You can't have it ANY clearer than that.
...As for Doctrinal gounds being settled God did that THROUGH His Sock Puppet.
...I have already demonstrated that in these forums like a hot knife goes through warm butter.



Sock Puppet
A sense of the treasure and glory which they have lost rushes upon them, and they realize that the wages of sin is death. They see the holy, happy company whom they have despised, clothed with glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life, while they are outside the city with every mean and abominable thing. Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.” Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!” Said the angel, “Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will
have a clean universe.

That seriously does not look to me like "ALL" will be saved...
..."Satan suffered for the ruin of the souls he had caused".
...Now please, outrank what you've just read and tell me everyone is saved.





If Ellen White's bones are worth the weight of salt...
...You had better listen to the Pioneers.
...Because it was God that said through her that they taught the truth.

Just because these people are said that the fire out of heaven “devoured” them doesn’t mean they were literally “consumed” as you are implying here. We know that these people stood in front of the throne of God afterwards. If they were literally “consumed” or “devoured” and already dead a second time, they wouldn’t of been able to stand to hear G-d’s judgment wouldn’t they?

This same figure of speech was used to described Nabad and Abihu's death. Apparently in our mind they were totally literally “devoured” from the fire that came out from the Lord. However, if they were so “devoured”, why was there coat not burned and their body needed to be dragged out of the temple? (Lev 10:5 “So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses has said” ) At least we know that Nabad and Abihu were really “dead”(in sound sleep with no recollection of what was going on), whereas the people described in Rev 20:9 where not -- as they stood before the throne of God afterwards (see Rev 20:12) to hear G-d’s judgment. Then afterwards, they were thrown in the lake of fire in verse 14.

Harold be careful. You are taking literally which are figure of speech. I did the same things for the longest time. We need to be more thorough and study very deligently.

Revelation is a highly symbolic and figurative book. Also prophecies given to the prophets also are given in such type of speech. Jesus also spoke in such manner with parables. We need to be able to know what is symbolic and what is not; and learn how to extract G-d’s meaning and truth from these.

How can we do that? The most important way I've learned is to first know the Torah. “To the law(Torah = Pantateuch) and to the testimony(attestation, usage): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. “ IS 8:20 This is the measure we need to use to test if someone’s words, interpretations, revelation, prophecies, or doctrines are true or false(Deut 13:1-11; Deut 18:15-22), including testing our own speculations or conclusions when studying scriptures. There’s no other written foundation given to man to test truth other than the Torah.

To Moses G-d did not speak in dreams, or visions, in “dark speeches”(symbols and figuratively) or not in “the similitude of the Lord”. G-d spoke "mouth to mouth" and "face to face"(Ex 12:6-8). The Pentateuch describes the plan of salvation. It is all there and with much details. This is the foundation that G-d gaved us to test and to know truth.

So, I’ve provided the foundation of G-d’s will for all men described in the Law of Jubilee. All debts(sins) are cancelled by LAW when the Jubilee comes, no manner if the offender has paid it in full or not. All is restore to their original inheritance(glorified body) given by the Lord at creation.

Then an understanding of the Feast is very important to understand in more details about how G-d is going to accomplish what he vowed in Isaiah 45 “I have sworn by myself…that unto me every knee shall bow. And every tongue shall swear”(shaba', to be complete, seven oneself, i.e. swear(by repeating a declaration 7 times) “to the glory of God” and in Num 14:21 “But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord”. Also in Ps 72:11-20, 86:9-10; and Ps 22:27 “all the ends of the world shall remember and return unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship thee. For the kingdom is the Lord’s and he is the governor among the nations.” And many more texts as such.

These expresses G-d’s will for all man which He has sworn that He will subdue all the earth. This takes time to bring all men into subjection and it takes careful planning and wisdom. The Lord has all the time of the world and He is all Wisdom and is able to accomplish His plan.

The plan of salvation laid up in the Torah will be all fulfilled by Jesus Christ who will bring all things into glory to the glory of His Father.

Elle,

I am still waiting for you to answer my questions, etc. in the post.

If one can't take the Bible literally, what can we take? Ask my wife what 'consumed' means to me. She bakes me a peach cobbler and it is consumed. There is nothing left of it. You seem to think we all will have a second chance. Where you get that I have no idea. Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Just once.
We ALL face that judgment throne. But the sinner goes no farther.
His fate has already been set by himself. We ALL chose what the future holds for us.

In case anybody is wondering, I moved the last few posts in this thread to the thread dedicated to the EGW being referred to as a sock puppet, therefore, I am asking that any further discussion on this be posted there.

The only text I'm aware of that claimed Jesus said everyone will end up being saved...
...Is from a Gnostic book that was mentioned on the history channel.
...I forget which one it was but that's where the idea comes from.

Looking at the first NT text that Elle listed in her post:

How does one understand the above text in light of this only a two verses earlier?

Looking at this in the context of verse 23, it doesn't sound like everybody will be saved, as it says those who do not hear that prophet will be destroyed from among the same seed.

Texts isolated from their context often prove to be misleading. Also, a given passage must be understood in harmony with all others. When the Word of God is taken as a whole its truths are clear and harmonious.

Looking at that from a point of reasoning one would conclude that Acts 3:25 isn't saying anything different...
...Then when other texts said that Israel would be blessed.
...However that didn't prevent Korah from being annihilated.
...Nor did it prevent any of the other multiple apostasy recorded.

It's a blessing to be born into a good family or a good country...
...However the jails are full of people who despite being blessed.
...Never took advantage of the blessing they got.

This is a briefing of what I currently understand from the Bible.

Before going into the Lake of fire here's an important note :

Notes about Book of Life in Rev 20:15
The wording of Rev 20:11-15

1. Does imply that many were found in the Book of Life, however it doesn’t say that it is only the names of those from the 1st ressurection.
   
2. that the name of some of those from the 2nd res. could be found in the Book of life
   
3. that the name of some of those from the 2nd res. would not be found in the Book of Life.

...:…Therefore Rev 20:15 does not imply that everyone raised at the 2nd ress. should be cast into the lake of fire.

Saying that all of those part of the 2nd res., their names are all not found in the book of life is purely speculation and adding to the Bible. We need to look at other texts to get more details about this.

Lake of Fire
At the Great White Throne judgment, those whose name are NOT found written in the book of life are said to be cast into the “lake of fire” (Rev. 20:15). The lake of fire is the baptism of fire that John talked about Jesus would come to baptism us with(Mat 3:11; Luk 3:16).

The lake of fire (a baptism of fire) is the anti-type of the Type found in the sanctuary service at the laver or the molten sea. The laver was the place where only the priests could wash(baptize) in order to be cleanse or purified. This is the Type of the firstfruits company(the barley harvest) who are the first ones to be baptized with fire who don’t need to be re-baptized for they have already died the second death by which this baptism brings us to. No other Israelites had access to the laver besides the priests.

The laver was the earthly manifestation of the heavenly baptism -- the baptism of fire that only Jesus can baptized man with. In the temple of Solomon, the laver was called “the molten sea” (1Kg 7:23). When gold is refined to its absolute pure state, molten gold is as clear as crystal. If the laver would have been filled with pure gold instead of water it would of looked like “a sea of glass like crystal”(Rev. 4:6) and “a sea of glass mixed with fire.”(Rev 15:2)

So the laver or the lake of fire is the final place where the great Refiner sits to purify the hearts of men. “for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver” Mal 3:2,3 First He refined the hearts of the firstfruit before His 2nd coming, then He purifies the hearts of the rest of the world at the Great White Thone Judgment.

"for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Is 26:9

Second Death
I gaved my Biblical understanding on the second death in the Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... discussion. I presented my Biblical perspective of what “death” or "mortality" means. Here is an example where I differ from Stephen Jones via my personal studies. Basically, we are mortal and it is only when the full glory of God dwells in us that we become “immortal” for only God is immortal and is the source of life.

Here are some links of my study how scripture relates to the first death and the second death in the topic above here and there.

In brief, the first death is like the first birth, which is physical which is establish by G-d for man to die once. (Heb 9:27) The second death is like the second birth which is spiritual.

Those that are truly “born again” die this “second death” before hand. Paul said “I die daily” (1Co 15:31). Obviously he is talking about the second death which is the death of the "flesh" or "the old man" which is a total submission to G-d’s will.

Therefore that’s why that those that has already received the baptism of fire and the fire of God dwells in them fully, the second death has no power on them(Rev 20:6) as it cannot hurt them(Rev 2:11) any further as all their "flesh" has already "died" or "burned up" before hand.

Here are all the Bible references that contains the words the second death:

Read what EGW wrote about this at the following link:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/main/?page_id=88

Also look carefully and prayerfully at the Bible references she quoted there.

Here is another Bible reference I came across while researching something else:

The key word is destroy in that He will destroy the wicked, which obviously refers to when they are cast into the lake of fire, which again is the second death, from which there isn't any resurrection.

Have you eaten Jesus literal flesh today, and drank His literal blood? AV Jn 6:53 “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you .”




I got that From Jesus himself when he gaved His Laws to Moses. He prophesies of the second opportunity for justification. He said “If any one of you or of your generations becomes unclean because of a dead person or is on a distant journey, he may, however, observe the Passover to the Lord. 11 In the second month on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, they shall observe it.” Num 9:9-11

Passover is the feast symbolizing JUSTIFICATION. G-d provided a second opportunity for any man to observe the Passover on the second month instead of the first, if they have become unclean or was on a distant journey.

A person touching death – “a dead person” refers to our mortal bodies "body of death" (Rom. 7:24). Believers are those who have passed from death to life (1 John 3:14) and are clean through the Word which was spoken to them (John 15:3). Unbelievers are still unclean by reason of touching a dead body.

A person on a distant journey(from G-d) -- like the prodigal son in Luke 15, he too will have a second opportunity to keep the Passover.

These provisions are made for the majority of humanity, who are yet dead in their sins and whose hearts are far from G-d.


First, your punitive conception of judgment is far from the Lord’s concept. Your sense of "justice" is a Babylonian, Roman, and wordly concept. The purpose for G-d's judgment is (1)to bring correction so that all His children might (2)learn righteousness so (3)to restore the offender and (4)bring restitution to the victim, (5) and to restore the broken relationship between the victim and the offender , and (6)to bring Divine Order.

Second, Heb 9:27 does not say what you are implying it saying. It is true that man only die once(1st death), but then comes the judgment when they are raised at the Great White Throne. Therefore this text contradict your conclusion for you are saying they will die a second time literally the 1st death after being cast in the Lake of fire.

Those who believe in Everlasting Torment uses Heb 9:27 with Rev 20:14 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” to prove the person cannot die a second time for death was destroy before the people were cast in the lake of fire. So logically they will be tormented and be burning forever. The Catholics, Menonites, and whoever else who believe in the forever torment have more Biblical ground then SDAs to support their doctrines.

We poke fun of them for believing such "ridiculous beliefs" and say they do not study their Bible, implying we are better than they and know our Bible and know the truth. Well it turns out in this doctrine, they are more scriptually correct than SDAs. Our doctrine is almost identical to theirs just vary in that point which they have scripture behind their point. Their error, as with SDAs, is not knowing (1)the difference between the 1st death and the 2nd, (2)taking the lake of fire literally, and (3)not understanding the judgment of God according to scriptures.

Therefore, to reconcile all scriptures, these individual are not dying a physical death(the 1st death) a second time in the lake of fire which would contradict Heb 9:27, but they will die the spiritual death(the 2nd death) in the lake of fire(figurative of Jesus baptism of Fire)

AV Hab 1:12 . “ [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction .”

Is 26:9“ …for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”

You have just said exactly what it is I've been trying to show people around here Ellie - I cannot accept your belief that all will be saved simply because Sock Puppet said that there would be people who will cease to exist eternally.

And if you've read any of my other posts you know when I say this I'm not exalting Sister White - I'm simply stating a most obvious fact, that God spoke His actual literal WORD through the husk that was the creature Ellen White.


Several of the distinctive particulars of the SDA faith repudiate the so called Bible and that is simply because the Bible was written by God's penmen but it wasn't "God's Pen".

Sister White wrote EXACTLY the words that God wanted said.

#1 -- By making all of EGW word's infallible as if spoken directly from God's mouth,
........you do more than what any Catholic has done with the Pope and even what the Pope's belief of himself.

#2 -- By saying that "Sister White had authority over Scripture",
..........you are doing exactly what the Mormon does with their prophets.

This is far from ever being Ellen's instruction. You need to blind yourself to lots of EGW writings that explicitly contracdicts what you are saying and doing.

I will continue to do my Christian duty as EGW has encouraged us to do by studying my Bible. Especially studying the Torah as it is told to do by G-d himself via testing deligently all what we hear.

BTW you are totally out of Topic. The title of the topic is "Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?"

Not "as if" Ellie, they ( those words ) WERE spoken of God...
...Through the mouth of His Sock Puppet - therefore this isn't exalting Ellen.
...It's simply accepting things for what they really are.

Of course it's "more" than Catholicism claims for itself and "more" than any Pope believes...
...The Papacy goes through years and years of discussion & debate.
...Checking it's Sacred Tradition against what it's Scripture Scholars are saying.
...It will then, after everything has been done issue a statement that it's statement.
...Is Dogmatic and to be believed by Catholic's.

The Pope does not simply make up stuff - he just articulates what the Magisterium has made a determination on...
...That's all the Pope claims.

Sister White claimed much, much more....
...She was given the power to determine TRUTH from error.
...And she absolutely exercised it.




She had absolute authority over the interpretation of Scripture and as I've already demonstrated...
...ALL Scripture and everything in the cosmos expect for Father God.
...WAS conditional - Sister White proved that on numerous times.




You have not read enough of "Ellen" nor have you connected the dots....
...Perhaps you should browse through some of my other posts.
...And see if you can find any holes in the armor.




Really? I would suggest applying the rubric you just stated...
...To Sister White's explicit affirmation God is CONDITIONAL.
...You will immediately be at a cross-roads after doing so.
...You will either adopt my view or leave the Adventist Faith.
...There is no half-way in the matter.






No, the Bible does not but as I've already proven everything in the Bible was conditional except Father God...
...Because Sock Puppet ( creature who spoke God's very WORD ) said there would be people lost you can take it to the bank there will be.

By itself & w/out Sister White this isn't really proof of anything...
...But here ya go.

Ps 9:17
The wicked SHALL BE turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever

Isa 5,14
Therefore hell HATH enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it


Eze 31,16
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

I don't recall any place in the Bible were it says that God will "turn the righteous into hell"....
...And if hell is only the grave you would think you would read that at least once in the Bible.

Rev 20,10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE the beast AND the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

Does Sock Puppet not say a couple of the aforementioned individuals...
...Are human?

The Bible ( by itself ) exactly as you said in the post I 1st responded to...
...Clearly describes an afterlife between death and the resurrection of the body.
...That there IS a certain level of awareness.

The Bible ( by itself ) clearly states that God can't sin or not exist or fail in any way...
...Is that something WE BELIEVE AS ADVENTISTS.
...NO!, It's not something we believe in at all!

The case is a clear one - we go off the actual words of God as uttered through the husk Sister White....
...NOT our human interpretation of what the Bible appears to say.

These are serious statements in addition to many others you have made. Making G-d’s word Conditional, this leads to believe that G-d’s past words are not always fulfilled(as in the Torah which Jesus confirm that not even an iota should pass that all will be fulfilled) and that makes Him a liar especially when He swear on His own life what He will do (Ex 32: and Is 45:23) “that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear…and the whole earth shall glory.” I will address this further in the Ellen G White Being Referred to as God’s Sock Puppet discussion where it should appropriately be discussed.


Getting back to this discussion …..



Ceph I appreciate you doing a big effort to look in the Bible to prove EGW statements that some people will be lost, however it is still not pertaining to the question of this discussion. The Question of this discussion is

Is there really Biblical Support that says All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost?

The answer is YES! I have provided many Biblical references first given to Green Cochoa on page 2 and repeated a second time on the same page . Then I linked these quotes to yourself and to Daryl on page 3 .

Daryl started to address these texts which I think is a progressive move and in topic. I will come back to his post later on.

Ceph, if you want to discuss of the Biblical texts that says that most are not saved, then we can open another discussion on it. Or if you want to discuss about the HELL Biblical texts, or EGW quotes to support the HELL Doctrine and how she interprets the Bible that 95% of the population of this world throughout all history is going to be annihilated, you are free to do so.


However, let’s get back to this discussion. I decided to take the time to quote all these references for everyones conveniences which I’ll do in the next 2 posts.

Post #1 with Biblical Texts that support that ALL being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost.

I tried to group together where there are similarities. This could facilitate further discussion as Daryl has initiated for someone who wants to discuss a group of texts or draw another group that they see other then what I have grouped. Feel free to do what the Spirit impresses you to address and to study further.


1. There shall be "a Restitution of ALL things" :

“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things , which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ” Acts 3:21


2. God declares His WILL, that ALL Things be RECONCILE unto Himself, in and by Christ, whether they be Things in HEAVEN or Things on EARTH":

“Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in ONE ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: ” Eph 1:9,10,

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. ” Col 1:20


3. "God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself"

“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. ” 2 Cor 5:19


4. AS the Judgment of condemnation came upon ALL by the offence of ONE, so by the righteousness of ONE, the free gift of LIFE should come on ALL.

“For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 17. Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon ALL men unto justification of life. ” Rom 5:17-19

5. In Christ shall ALL be made alive (vivified) :

“For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive . ” 1 Cor 15:22


6. All Kindred(every one) of the Earth Shall be Blessed :

“In Abraham's seed ALL the Kindreds of the Earth Shall Be Blessed. ” Gen 12:3,

“And in thy seed shall ALL the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. ” Gen 22:18,

“Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall ALL the kindreds of the earth be blessed. ” Acts 3:25,

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall ALL nations be blessed. ” Gal 3:8


7. When the Lord comes, He shall rain RIGHTEOUSNESS on ALL FLESH:

“Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. ” Ho 10:12

“. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: ” Ac 2:17 and Jl 2:28


8. Christ shall inherit ALL Nations :

“ Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things , by whom also he made the worlds; ” Hb 1:2

“Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit ALL nations. ” Ps 82:8

“Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen (gowy, mass, nations) [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. ” Ps 2:8 Also see lev 25:46;

9. ALL creation shall be delivered :

“For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 19. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, 20. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 21. For we know that the WHOLE creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 22. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. ” Rom 8:18-23


10. The END shall not come, until ALL are subject to Him, so that God may be, not all in some, but "ALL in ALL.

“Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 24. For he must reign, till he hath put ALL enemies under his feet. 25. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 26. For he hath put ALL things under his feet. But when he saith ALL things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put ALL things under him. 27. And when ALL things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL things under him, that God may be ALL in ALL .” 1Cor 15:24-28


11. He gather together in one ALL things in Christ.

“Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 3. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 4. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 5. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 6. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 7. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 8. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 9. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER together IN ONE ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: ” Eph 1:1-10


12. That at the name of Jesus, (that is Saviour,) EVERY KNEE shall bow, of Things in HEAVEN, and Things on EARTH, and Things under the Earth; and that EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER." (It doesn't bring "glory to God", if this is a forced, superficial acknowledgement that God's way is right.) :

“That at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11. And [that] EVERY TONGUE should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ” Phil 2:10, 11


13. We trust in the living God, who IS the Saviour of ALL MEN :

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN , specially of those that believe. ” 1 Tim 4:10


14. God will have “ALL men to be saved, and to COME to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH”.

“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for ALL; 2. For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6. Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. ” 1Tim 2:1-6

“ And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.” Isa 49:26


15. "the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the WORLD" :

“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of THE WORLD. ” 1John 4:14


16. That the “WORLD through Him MIGHT BE SAVED." :

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD through him might be saved. ” John 3:17


17. The Only-Begotten Son "is the propitiation, not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" :

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and [size:10pt]not for ours only[/color], but also for [the sins of] the WHOLE WORLD . ” 1 John 2:2


18. "the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of THE WORLD"

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of THE WORLD . ” John 1:29


19. Jesus Came to seek and Save that which was Lost/destroyed

“ For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (Appolumi, literal : “one having destroyed”).
” Lk 19:10

...continuing with Post #2 with Biblical Texts that support that ALL being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost.



20. Jesus came “that He might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL" that means the SIN, NOT the sinner.

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. ” 1John 3:8


21. "there shall be no more death” … because ALL THINGS are made NEW:

“And God shall wipe away ALL tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL things NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. ” Rev 21:4,5


22. G-d gaved power over ALL FLESH to Jesus that He should give Eternal Life to as many as As the Father gives Him.

“. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. ” Jn 17:2


23. "the Father”… “hath given ALL THINGS into His(Jesus) hand" And Jesus will “LOSE NOTHING” :

“The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand. ” (John 3:35)

“ ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ” John 6:37- 39


24. Jesus will not leave nor forsake US

“ [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. ” Hb 13:5


25. Jesus “will draw ALL men unto me" :

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL [men] unto me. ” John 12:32[/quote]


26. G-d has concluded them ALL in UNBELIEF that he might have MERCY upon ALL:

“ For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. ” Ro 11:32


27, There’s nothing, not even death, that can separate us from the Love of God

“ For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ” Ro 8:38-39


28. The Judgment of G-d is to preserve and Redeem Man.

“ Thy righteousness [is] like the great mountains; thy judgments [are] a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. ” Ps 36:6

“Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.” Isa 1:27


29. The Judgment of G-d is so that the world will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

“With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. ” Isa 26:9

“ Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field. 17. And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. ” Isa 32:16-17


30. We shall not die at the Judgment of G-d, for it is establish to Correct Man, not to annihilate him.

“ [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. ” Hab 1:12

“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. ” Isa 2:4 and Mic 4:3


31. God has SWORN that EVERY MAN shall worship him and swear Allegience to Him and the WHOLE EARTH will be filled with His Glory

“ But [as] truly [as] I live, ALL the EARTH shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. ” Num 14:21

“ I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE shall bow, EVERY TONGUE shall swear. 24. Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. ” Isa 45:23-25

“ O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. ” Ps 65:2

“ My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever. ” Ps 145:21

“ And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]. ” Isa 40:5

“ [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. ” Ps 51:13

“. For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh : and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. 18. For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. ….23. And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. ” Isa 66:23

“ A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. ” Jer 25:31

“. Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? …. 37. Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 39. And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. 42. For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them. ” Jer 32:27, 37-42

32. Lev 25 which I won't quote but the Law of Jubilee is stated that says ALL DEBTS/SINS are canceled by LAW no matter if there are some that still owe. ALL SLAVES are FREED and restored back to their inheritance. The full study is supplied in this discussion on page 1 here

Ellie, when Scripture uses the word "ALL", "WHOLE" & "WORLD" - depending on the context...
...Simply means "some" OF all parts.


i.e.


John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him

The "world" certainly didn't follow Jesus...
...But SOME of the total exposed to Jesus did.




Rev 12: 9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the WHOLE world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Satan didn't ( if all or even some are to be saved )...
...Deceive the WHOLE world.
...Some of all or ALL of all ( as you think ) are not fooled.


Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

Caesar indeed controlled the world that was known at that time...
...However Ceasar didn't have the power to tax the WHOLE or ALL the world.
...There were societies at that time, nations - that had never heard of "Caesar".

So, ya see for this one I don't even need to rely on Sock Puppet....
...The so called Bible answers it plainly.

I agree that at times it can be an expression. This passage appears to be such a situation. I say appears because I haven't pondered and studied in detail this passage.

It's the same type of expression with us when we say "He's in the world".


Here I disagree with you for Satan did deceive the whole world including all those that are the firstfruits to be ressurected. Everyone were in darkness and all needs to be given light to see. Jesus, the Word of G-d, is that light.


Here they didn’t use Kosmos as the two other examples above. They used another word "oikoumene" which primary meaning is "land".

In John 12:19 and Rev12;9 and most other NT English “world” translation(186 occurences) use the word Kosmos which Strong has define as followed: “orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)).”
I already know you don’t need Sock Puppet for you have Jesus who is the one to give you the interpretation (1Jn 2:27).

Regarding to your point, its just passing wind. There’s nothing concrete there. Feel free to look closer on the quotes provided and then we can look at the context and discuss on something more substantial.

Yes, and what's your point?

Elle,

What's my point?

I posted what my point was in my very next post after the one you quoted in your previous post to this one.

As I am quoting my next post here, you can read that post again here.

Well, that Hebrew word is “shamad” which true meaning is “to desolate” also translated as plucked down, overthrow, etc….

If you read Hosea 2, the Lord explains how he will “destroy” us. For sure we all die the first death, but death for the Lord is only a sleep for He can bring to life anything. There’s nothing, not even death that can separate us from the Love of G-d. Hosea 2 show very clearly that the Lord needs to destroy us before we are in a disposition to be able to hear Him and to need Him. Destruction is part of the process for us to “learn Righteousness”.

I agree the lake of fire(baptism of fire = laver = the molten laver in the sanctuary) is the second death which is a spiritual death not a physical death. The lost cannot die the 1st(physical) death a second time which would contradict Heb 9:27.

Also, death was destroy(Rev 20:14) just prior to the people cast in the lake of fire.

So scripturly it is not possible for anyone to die the 1st(physical) death a second time in the lake of fire.

Also, remember that the word “destroy” both in the OT(h6, abad) and the NT(g622 apollumi) means differently than what you, and the world has defined. This is the true essence of the word “destroy” :

Ps 119:176 “I have gone astray like a lost lost (abad) sheep; seek thy servant;”

Jer 50:6 “My people hath been lost (abad) sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.”

Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi).

Luk 15:9 “And when she hath found [it], she calleth [her] friends and [her] neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost (apollumi).

Luk 15:24 “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollumi), and is found. And they began to be merry. »

What was destroyed(abad, apollumi) in Jesus parable all are found.

Then Jesus said of himself “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost(apollumi =destroyed).”

I've read it, I still don't see your point. Sorry. If there some Biblical texts with a specific point you want to bring forth into this discussion, that would help me know exactly what you are thinking of.

I will quote one of the more clear things that EGW said in relation to the Bible references she also referred to.


Ellen White in commenting on these two Bible references states that the wicked "sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion."

Can't get more clearer than that.

The second death is eternal oblivion.

There isn't any third or whatever resurrection from this second death.

No further comments regarding what I quoted and commented on?

The following refers to "all flesh" in the sense of the saved, but doesn't include those described as "dead bodies":

The words "all flesh" obviously refers to all the redeemed, but not to all humanity.

The words "dead bodies" obviously refers to all the lost.

John 3:16 says that "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish", which tells me using KJV of the English language that those who believeth not in Him should perish.

Hi Daryl, I started a reply to this buy got distracted with other topics. I wish I had more time. I'll be answering this next as time permits.

Thought it was time to bump this for further study.

There is warning --


"The prophet Isaiah brings to view the fearful deception which will come upon the wicked, causing them to count themselves secure from the judgments of God: “We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under the falsehood have we hid ourselves.” [Isaiah 28:15.]

"In the class here described are included those who in their stubborn impenitence comfort themselves with the assurance that there is to be no punishment for the sinner; that all mankind, it matters not how corrupt, are to be exalted to Heaven, to become as the angels of God. But still more emphatically are those making a covenant with death and an agreement with hell, who renounce the truths which Heaven has provided as a defense for the righteous in the day of trouble, and accept the refuge of lies offered by Satan in its stead,— the delusive pretensions of Spiritualism. {GC88 560.3}


Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden, “Ye shall not surely die.” “In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” [Genesis 3:4, 5.]

Little by little he has prepared the way for his master-piece
of deception in the development of Spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: “I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” [Revelation 16:13, 14.] Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in his Word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God. {GC88 561.2}

Saith the Lord God: “Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet; and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding-place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.” [Isaiah 28:17, 18.] {GC88 562.1}

"Satan says to the world: "No matter how wicked you are; no matter whether you believe or disbelieve God and the Bible. Live as you please; heaven is your home." The spiritualist teachers virtually declare: "Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?" Malachi 2:17. {GC 556.3}

I'll get back to this later.

I am glad you bumped this one, as it is relevant to some posts in another active thread.

From March of 2012. Well, maybe it was just an oversight, and it got lost, and she's busy, and time doesn't permit, and

I had studied it and worked up a partial replied but then other discussions came up. This been a long time and I have to find where I put this study. Daryl's old question is not the reason this was bumped. But I will get to it later on.

Asygo is the one that bumped it as he didn't want to hijak another discussion where this point was brought indirectly to another point by which Asygo also did ignore after saying to Kland he doesn't take the word of the Lord as it reads. He himself did the same and did not look to see if the Law said what I said it said versus that other discussion. Since Asygo ignored my point I have drop that point from the other discussion for he didn't care to study it or interested in it and rather go around and around with the typical arguments we see in all the discussions of that type.

Now Asygo since you bump this, and I do hope you will put some effort in studying this by putting your idols aside(Ez 14) and really seek to hear the word of the Lord in what He wants to tell us with the law of Jubilee.

The Law of Jubille is the ultimate Sabbath message by which us SDAs should be expert on. That's another thing that everyone is ignoring in this forum is to understand the other sabbaths describe in the law and its relationship with the 7th day sabbath. I have brought that bait out at least 5 times up to now in various discusion as it is something I'm meditating on and looking to study it more in debt and my reason to be here with your help to study things. However, no ones wants to study it or wants to know about it. Everyone is satisfied with a superficial limited knowledge of the Sabbath by which the 7th day sabbath show the lowest level meaning of it. There's more but no one is interested for they think what they know is all they need to know. At least we do not lie when we say we are the Laodiciean Church. Right!

Asygo when reading the law of Jubille (in Lev 25) remember the law is spiritual and prophetic. Try to go beyond the literal meaning. The Holy Spirit can show you the spiritual side of it. Read it and tell me what the Lord is saying through it about what He's going to fulfill.

You can find a study of the law of Jubilee on page 1 of this discussion Post #138330.

Having momentarily pushed some of my cherished and surprisingly heavy idols aside, I've looked a bit into this topic, but haven't really spent much time on it. The idea that everyone will be saved seems directly contradictory to Christ's own words:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

That's a rather large idol for me. Before I invest too much time and effort into this, I need a good explanation of how it fits with those verses. Can you give me a concise argument that fits your idea of the Jubilee with Matt 7:13-14?

The narrow gate is the firstfruits....only a small group. In the law only the asses redeemed with a lamb were redeemed...the asses not redeemed needed to have their neck broken(destroyed). Israel(mother Egypt) was the first born of the Lord like Ishmael(mother Hagar who was Egyptian) was the first born of Abraham. Ishmael was said to be a wild ass, Israel was said to be a wild ass. How many of Israel crossed the promised land at the feast of Tabernacle? None. Only Joshua and another had faith to cross, but all the rest did not have ears(=faith Rom 10:14) to cross.

We're all asses but not all the asses will be redeemed. In the law of Jubilee, many are not redeemed and they have to work to pay off their debt.

If what you say is true, then why worry about God at all? Why not eat, drink and be merry, die, be raised again, work off the debt and settle down to a nice life forever? What is the point of acting contrary to the natural inclinations of the heart to live selfishly?

Why preach the gospel? Why even think about God? Why go to Church? Everyone is going to live forever doing what he or she wants to do. Yeah? At least, according to you.
....
...

James you are revealing your reason to follow the Lord -- so that you won't go thru the lake of fire??? Are you trying to save yourself? That ain't going to work no matter how "obedient" you manage to be by your own strenght, you will still fall short of the mark and end up in the lake of fire as Jesus said His baptism is -- of fire. Everyone will go through the lake of fire(2nd death = repentence) whether they went into it early -- before the judgment day -- or later.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


You know, there's other reasons to follow the Lord. Not because we first loved Him, but because He Helkuo(drag see usage in BLB) us into harsh discipline.

There's a law in Moses that prophecizes of those the Lord has helkuo & discipline early and it is related to the law of Jubilee.

Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2. If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever."

I don't have time to expand on this one and I'll leave it for your meditation and potential later discussion. But this is what happened to the first fruits company...they did not go out at the first yearly Jubile sabbath and remain permanent servants(slaves) to the Lord -- their Master.

So, the same thing happens to all men: lake of fire then life as usual, everyone actually lives forever. If I do good, it is not enough; if I do bad, it is as it should be because I'm inherently not good enough. OK ...

Then, why even try to be good? That's my point and my question. Why preach the gospel? Why even think about God? Why go to Church? Everyone is going to live forever doing what he or she wants to do. Yeah? At least, according to you.

Are you suggesting the lake of fire will take away my desire to do evil? Well then, so much the better. All I have to do is be myself and follow the natural inclinations of my heart. BEFORE the lake of fire, I would be ruthless and lascivious. AFTER the lake of fire, I would be holy and pure. In other words, God is responsible for what I did, am doing and will do; he made me so. Is that right?
....
...

Jesus said, "broad is the way that leads to destruction." You said, "the asses not redeemed needed to have their neck broken(destroyed)."

That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is how these destroyed ones eventually have eternal life along with the redeemed ones. Did I misunderstand?


The unredeemed asses don't work off their debt; they are killed.

In the law, if a Hebrew slave does not want to leave his master, he gets his ear pierced and remains a slave forever. He never goes free.

All of us have been bought back by Christ. But some of us love our old master and want to stay. The law says such slaves are slaves forever, never having the freedom that Christ offers.

That doesn't match the "everyone will eventually be saved" concept.

Furthermore, the "work to pay off their debt" sound rather legalistic. When one breaks the law, how does he pay that off?

That's new for me. Do you have a clear text that says that?

That is also news to me too, therefore, I also would like to see a clear text that says that.

Second Death

Asygo & Daryl, tell me which death is Paul dying every day when he said "I die daily"(1Cr 15:31)? Definitely not the first death = mortality.

Paul died the second death daily meaning he submitted to the will of the Lord every day. Repentance is turning from our own ways(or own will) and submitting to the will of the Lord. Repentance or submission is really the same thing. This is what baptism symbolizes…death to the old man and resurrection to the new man.

Besides that their’s two other ways that the Bible presents the two deaths by which says the same thing but in a different ways. The first is implied in the NT. It is simple and similar to the two births – 1st is a natural/physical birth and 2nd is a spiritual birth. So it is the same with death, there’s a natural/physical death and the second being a spiritual death.

The second way we find the Bible says is that Adam’s sin brought death(mortality = 1st death) to all mankind (Rom 5:12 “ Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, ON WHICH [eph ho] all sinned.” Concordant translation). Here eph ho means “on which” that is the same as “therefore”. So mankind was imputed mortality(death) because of Adam’s sin. The man in Jesus parable in Mat 18:23-25 is Adam who had a very large debt. The Bible reckoned sin as a debt. We see this in the two Lord’s prayer where sin and debt is used interchangeably. We see this also in the law of Moses(Ex 22). So since this man in Mat 18 didn’t have the means to pay his debt, the Lord’s judgment was that he was sold with his wife and all his children to pay his debt. Mat 18: 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Wait a minute…is Jesus contradicting His own law found in Deut 24:16 and confirmed in Eze 18:20 which says the children will not be judge or pay for their father’s sin? No for the Lord often acts his laws on two levels... Globally and individually. So there's two level of judgment – the 1st being globally upon the whole world(all humanity) and the 2nd being on individual.

We see the first level of judgment in Rom 5:12 where Adam’s sin brought mortality to all men, which was equally remedied on a global realm by Jesus righteousness, who was the second Adam, and his action brought life to all men. This is dealing with the first death(mortality) which is a physical and natural death.

Whereas, the second death referred in Rev 20 is the lawful judgment on the level on individuals by which all their sins will be accounted and judged -- v.13 “they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.” This judgment which is given according to the fiery law(Deut 33:2) that proceeds from the Lord’s throne, “burneth with fires”… “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, etc…shall have their part in the lake … which is the second death”. The lake of fire where the people with their sentences are plunge into represents a baptism of fire.

So there’s two kinds of death. The first is mortality, while the second is submitting to the judgment/discipline of God through a baptism of fire. The fire consumes the flesh which purifies the sinner like “a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap”(Mal 3:2) by which will make anyone into the image of God’s character = pure gold.

Christians, like Paul, who submit to this divine judgment during their life, the second death produced by the fiery law at the great white throne has no effect on them because they have already been exposed to that fire daily when Jesus baptised them and had already died that death before. Whereas unbelievers have not yet been exposed to that fire. We see this in the santuary services where only the body of priests had access to the laver and the others not. Their time comes at the judgment at the Great White Throne.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

....
So, the same thing happens to all men: lake of fire then life as usual, everyone actually lives forever. If I do good, it is not enough; if I do bad, it is as it should be because I'm inherently not good enough. OK ...

Then, why even try to be good? That's my point and my question. Why preach the gospel? Why even think about God? Why go to Church? Everyone is going to live forever doing what he or she wants to do. Yeah? At least, according to you.

Are you suggesting the lake of fire will take away my desire to do evil? Well then, so much the better. All I have to do is be myself and follow the natural inclinations of my heart. BEFORE the lake of fire, I would be ruthless and lascivious. AFTER the lake of fire, I would be holy and pure. In other words, God is responsible for what I did, am doing and will do; he made me so. Is that right?
....
..

Your misundersanding stem that you take all that is written in he Bible literally. It is a spiritual book expressed in literal language but are symbolic showing us shadows of the spiritual reality. The laws are key which the Lord layed the foundation of His plan of salvation. Without going to it and trying to find the meaning of these symbols with other scriptures to first know that foundation, you will be pretty much lost to understand the prophets and what the book of Revelation says by which is also express in symbolic language.

Another help which first brought me to a lot of understanding without knowing the importance of the law was by looking at the Hebrew definition of words which often relay the mind of the Lord about these words.

In this Babylonian world and phylosophy, destroy means like the way you understnd it. Your "capute" -- totally finished or dead forever. However this is not the way the Lord sees and uses this word and we greathly err to read the Bible with the Babylonians definition of words.

Destroy in both the OT['abad] and the NT[apolumi] means both destroy & lost together. Jesus said I came to save the lost[apolumi]". Jesus gave 3 parables of the lost[apolumi] sheep, lost[apolumi] coin, and the prodigal son. All of them were found. I have already given you the many texts in the OT where the Lord said He first destroys and then after he heals. This also lays out the way and mind of the Lord. What He really means to 'destroy' is our ego and thinking we can be little gods and rule in His place which is the definition of AntiChrist. For some this 'destruction' will lead to the 2nd death(repentance) in this lifetime before we die that 1st death. Most will not and will die like Saul or like the unbelievers in the land of Canaan which this same scene is expressed in Rev 19 as the nations being slain by the sword of Jesus tongue after His 2nd ressurection. Really this means that Christ(Head link to the body of firstfruit at that time) will be preaching the word of Christ and many will be converted and their old man will be slain by the double edge sword of the Spirit.

However both manner of death(Saul = the Church and the unbelievers/nations in Canaan) is with a weapon of the Spirit which foreshadow spiritual realities which will lead to the 2nd death(repentance). Jesus had victory over that 1st death. So that's a non-issue -- "death where is your sting?" and that's why Jesus view the 1st death as only a sleep, for all will ressurect and He will finish the work "of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:21)

This reflects those like Paul, Peter, John, and anyone of us that considers ourselves as perpetual slaves –servants. Notice their ears are anchored to the door of their master. The Israelites who were to be a nation of priests were to put the laws on their doors. They were the ones to teach the laws to the nations. In the Lord’s judicial system, individual that broke the law had to pay what the judges told them to pay according to the directives of the Law. If they didn’t have the means to pay, they were sold as slaves but only until their debt was paid. But every slaves were given a time of rest from working their debt off every weekly Sabbath, and every yearly Sabbath. This is call forbearance. Their debt was not erased and had to resume their work after the sabbath period was over. This was a mandatory that the slaves were to be released during those Sabbath days or year and during the Feasts Sabbaths. This is something the Isreaelites never did and that's why they never understood the Jubilee. They treated their slaves as slaves like the Babylonian treated theirs. They mistreated them and tricked them to slaves for them longer and few were taught the laws of the Lord or got converted.

But in the law, the slaves that chose to stay to work for their master, is a prophecy of the first fruits and what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the first end of the weekly millennium. Them returning to their master means that they have tasted how good are His laws and His ways and came to agree with them. Having their ears nail to the door symbolized that their ears are open and can hear the Laws of their Master who is Christ Jesus.

Show me what law you are referring to. What you say is not what the law of Jubilee says. Not all are redeemed and those that are not are to pay their own debt, until it is paid off. If the debt is so great that it is not paid off by the end of the 49th year -- the Jubilee, their debt is totally erased. Not debt is too great that cannot be erased at the Great Jubille. The Law disctates that ALL is restored back to their inheritance.

Everyone is not saved at the same time. There are 3 harvests in the law which all require different process of harvesting and preparation: the first being the barley company(firstfruit), the second the Wheat company(Church), a the third the grapes company (the unbelievers).

They will work for one of the royal priesthood(firstfruits or maybe also one that constitute the church) who are responsible to teach him the laws of the Lord. How the Lord will formulate the exact specifics of the work in His judgment -- I do not know but for sure the verdict will meet the offence made-- "an eye for an eye". This is the legal procedure expressed in Ex 22:3 and the other laws which defines the way the Lord will judge and bring back the lawful order in the land.

It is not legalistic for all sins needs to be accounted for and restitution needs to be properly made to all the victims. In His judgment, the thief that has to pay 2x, or 4x or 5x the sum of what is stolen according to what the law specifies, will learn not to steal again. This is how the laws of the Lord will eventually get written in their heart and restore the sinner.

Our legal system in the land does not reflect the mind of the Lord nor His ways. It does not bring restitution to the victim nor does it restore the law breaker. This is the fault of us Christians for having not studied the ways of the Lord written in His laws and bringing these into our land. We have much guilt upon us and we are very responsible for the level of sins that is on this world today for not teaching or bringing the laws of the Lord in our land that would have turn this world into a much different place.

Your misundersanding stem that you take all that is written in he Bible literally. It is a spiritual book expressed in literal language but are symbolic showing us shadows of the spiritual reality. The laws are key which the Lord layed the foundation of His plan of salvation. Without going to it and trying to find the meaning of these symbols with other scriptures to first know that foundation, you will be pretty much lost to understand the prophets and what the book of Revelation says by which is also express in symbolic language.

Another help which first brought me to a lot of understanding without knowing the importance of the law was by looking at the Hebrew definition of words which often relay the mind of the Lord about these words.

In this Babylonian world and phylosophy, destroy means like the way you understnd it. Your "capute" -- totally finished or dead forever. However this is not the way the Lord sees and uses this word and we err to read the Bible with Babylonians definition of words.

Destroy in both the OT['abad] and the NT[apolumi] means both destroy & lost together. Jesus said I came to save the lost[apolumi]". Jesus gave 3 parables of the lost[apolumi] sheep, lost[apolumi] coin, and the prodigal son. All of them were found. I have already given you the many texts in the OT where the Lord said He first destroys and then after he heals. This also lays out the way and mind of the Lord. What He really needs to first destroys is our ego and thinking we can be little gods and rule in His place which is the definition of AntiChrist. For some this destruction will lead to the 2nd death(repentance) in this lifetime before we die that 1st death. Most will not and will die like Saul or like the unbelievers in the land of Canaan which is the nations after the 2nd coming express in Rev 19 who are slain by the sword of Jesus tongue. However both manner of death is with a weapon of the Spirit which foreshadow spiritual realities which will lead to the 2nd death(repentance). Jesus had victory over that 1st death. So that's a non-issue -- "death where is your sting" and that's why Jesus view the 1st death as only a sleep, for all will ressurect and He will finish the work "of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:21)

This reflects those like Paul, Peter, John, and anyone of us that considers ourselves as perpetual slaves –servants. Notice their ears are anchored to the door of their master. The Israelites who were to be a nation of priests were to put the laws on their doors. They were the ones to teach the laws to the nations. In the Lord’s judicial system, individual that broke the law had to pay what the judges told them to pay according to the directives of the Law. If they didn’t have the means to pay, they were sold as slaves but only until their debt was paid. But every slaves were given a time of rest from working their debt off every weekly Sabbath, and every yearly Sabbath. This is call forbearance. Their debt was not erased, but they had a rest and it was mandatory that the slaves were to be released during those Sabbath days or year and during the Feasts Sabbaths. The slaves that chose to stay to work for their master is a prophecy of the first fruits and what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the first end of the weekly millennium. Them returning to their master means that they have tasted how good are His laws and came to agree with them. Having their ears nail to the door symbolized that their ears are open and can hear the Laws of their Master who is Christ Jesus.

Show me what law you are referring to. What you say is not what the law of Jubilee says. Not all are redeemed and those that are not are to pay their own debt.

Everyone is not saved at the same time. There are 3 harvests in the law which all require different process of harvesting and preparation: the first being the barley company(firstfruit), the second the Wheat company(Church), a the third the grapes company (the unbelievers).
They work for one of the royal priesthood(firstfruits or maybe also one that constitute the church) who are responsible to teach him the laws of the Lord. The law of Jubilee and other texts shows many will have to work off their dedt. This is the legal procedure expressed in Ex 22:3 and the other laws which defines the way the Lord will judge and bring back the lawful order in the land.

It is not legalistic for all sins needs to be accounted for and restitution needs to be made to all the victims. In His judgment, the thief that has to pay 2x, or 4x or 5x the sum of what is stolen according to what the law specifies, and this will teach the thief not to steal again. This is how the laws of the Lord will get written in their heart and restore the sinner.

Our judicial system in the land does not reflect the mind of the Lord nor His ways. It does not bring restitution to the victim nor does it restore the law breaker. This is the fault of us Christians for having not studied the ways of the Lord written in His laws and bringing these into our land. We have much guilt upon us and we are very responsible for the level of sins that is manifested in this world today for not teaching or bringing the laws of the Lord in our land that would have turn this world into a much different place.

I think my post after yours will answer some of your question.

What's the point of doing right or good if we are all going to be saved? The ones that do most wrongs will have a greater debt to pay than the one that did wrong less. The one that partakes of the first ressurection will reign with Christ for 1000 year and will minister to the others for the other 47000 years whereas the others will have to pay for all their debt(sin) towards others.

Despite of this difference, it is not something an individual can choose. The Lord chooses who will remain vessels of destruction or who will become a vessels for His glory (Rom 9). So the firstfruits are chosen and will go through harsh discipline before the laws will be written on their heart.

Regardless if your inheritance is part of the firstfruit, or part of the Church or part of the unbelievers. Everyone will go through the same process depicted in the 3 Feasts Harvest. The laws are written on our heart via discipline, judgment and corrections which is also known as the bastism of fire. It is a hard process because it burns the flesh.

Is it better to be first to receive the inheritance than to be the last group? I have no idea because the Lord did say in one of His parables that the last will be first, and the first will be last. I don't know if that has anything to do with this. All I know that "all things works together". So there's no room for ondescending the unbelievers or elevating the firstfruit. Their salvation is never been based on their merits and what group they end being in has nothing to do with what you did. It all has to do with whom the Lord has shown mercy to first.(Rom 9)

That's not true. God has provided precedence for his actions in:

1. Adam and Eve
2. Cain and Abel
3. The Antediluvian world
4. Sodom and Gomorrah
5. First of Israel out of Egypt
6. The Canaanites
7. The Jews

In all these cases, the word of God held true.

1. Adam and Eve died (eventually)
2. Cain's line was left to continue (until the Flood)
3. The Antediluvian world perished in the Flood
4. Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown by fire from heaven
5. The first of Israel never entered Canaan because of unbelief
6. The Canaanites were swept away (eventually)
7. The Jews were taken to Babylon (& Rome), their city burnt.

When God says, "You will surely die," He means what he says, very literally: you will NOT live forever. You will NOT have access to the Tree of Life. But there is someone who wants you to believe that you will "not surely die", someone who knows God but who is laying the foundation for your fall by enticing you away from the direct commandment of God and the judgement to come: eternal life or eternal death.
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That's why we should invest in Gold Silver today, right? So it will be easier to pay.


I think you've said before something along this line. Always good to be first, the privileged, right?

Matthew 20:8-15 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.' 9 When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage. 11 And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, 12 saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14 Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

Eternal death as in the 2nd death resulting from being cast into the Lake of Fire created by all the fire reigning down from heaven that consumes those, both root and branch, who have not accepted Him in the respective life times

Daryl eternal death is not even a concept that exist in the Bible even less it being related to the 2nd death.

You haven't replied to the Bible evidences I presented concerning the 2nd death being a repentance/submission to the Lord. Please address those scriptures before jumping in other texts.

Daryl I didn't want to reply to James point because it is as if James has not been following the discussion or even if he has read any of it.

James argument that the Lord said "you will surely die" that He meant this literally and He meant a eternal death that cannot be backed up with scripture, by which he's also disregarding the judgment process describe in the Law, and not accounting all other scriptures that was presented. So where to start to respond to James post??? To me James is trying real hard to find proofs that this vomit (man's interpretation) is good food.

James, what you said above by stressing the literal....goes against what Paul said when he said that the law(Pentateuch) is spiritual(Rom 7:14)...this includes what was said in Genesis too. For sure there are a literal meanings in what is written and I never said there wasn't any 1st death nor did I disregard other scriptures that all needs to be accounted in this picture. I have presented these in post#155566 page 8. Please James address the Biblical texts what I have presented concerning the first death and the second death. Also I would appreciate that Daryl and Asygo address it as they are the ones that questioned it.

All these texts(the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the book of Revelation) has spiritual meaning hidden behind the literal that brings life. Paul said about reading the Bible with the letter literally: "for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2Cor 3:6

Scriptures needs to be read with the Spirit because we are carnal and the carnal mind cannot understand spiritual things and only see the letter.

Also the Lord made very clear that all the things spoken in the Bible via the prophets are spoken in "dark speeches" (chiydah, a puzzle, a riddle) which are symbolic and it needs work to solve the riddle by finding the meaning of the symbolism with other scriptures. See Num 12:4-8

Which Bible are you reading?

My Bible speaks of the eternal damnation.



We also find references to perishing forever, having one's name blotted out forever, etc.



To me, those verses are indicative of an eternal death awaiting the wicked.

Elle, if it is possible that this game of life involves eternal death or eternal life as its reward, and if it is possible that this game is for keeps, with no second chances, why should you or anyone risk believing the alternative? If you lose, you lose big time.

If you believe as I do, that eternal death is a reality for the wicked and that there are no second chances following this life's probation, and if in reality the other position is correct, you have not lost anything.

In other words, my belief is the safest, whichever way the truth happens to be.

But if the Bible is to be believed, eternal death is real.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(RSV)

I will get back to it. I haven't forgotten, just out of time for now.

But I'm still hung up on a previous thing. Looking at the type, the ass that was not redeemed died; it did not go to work and eventually pay its debt itself.

Elle, if the second death = repentance, then Death and Hades will be repenting. I'm not buying that at this time.

Remember, the Lord was very clear that He spoke in riddle which needs to be solved.

What is baptism again? a death of the old man....right! ("Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?... For through the Law, I died to the Law, …I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live,… 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with)

That old man has to burn the same way your old man burned through Jesus' baptism of fire. Did Jesus' fiery law kill you Asygo? Would you say that His fire is like fullers soap? Tell me what death did you die? Which death did Paul died every day?

AV Re 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Above is a list of different types of old man that will burn in the lake of fire. Not going to be a quick dip. It will be an "eternal[aionian, an age-abiding] damnation"(krisis, judgment). Many thousands of years(42,000 years max) will elapse for them to serve to pay off their debt. A little by little, their old man wll die and they will learn righteousness just as it did for you. If the old man is burned, then what's left? The new man in Christ, just as it left you intact.



Now notice this text above is before the individuals are thrown in the lake of fire which are thrown in Rev 20:15. Since the Lord has judge them to die the 2nd death which requires them to pay out their own debt according to what He has previous express in His Jubilee law and the judgments listed for specific sins, thus this makes the first death irrelevant. So it is cast in the lake of fire before the people are cast in for they are judge to die the second death.


Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The judgments of the Lord shown in the law of Moses are restorative and not destructive by which will bring the "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:32)

Elle,

Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?

Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source?

The meaning of the second death, destruction, all man to be saved, the lake of fire being a baptism, no freewill, etc.... the Lord gave me all of this via personal studies. It was via looking up the Hebrew & Greek words and looking up all its occurrences in the Bible to derive the Lord's definition of words that I started to see things differently. I was sharing my studies about this on the forum in Restoration Ministry and Adventist Online. Then a year later, I came across Myron, an SDA, that from his own studies also came to the same understanding over 12 years ago. He came across the studies of Stephen Jones, who is a non-denominationalist who studies the law of Moses. When Myron shared what the studies from the Law of Moses that gave a very strong foundation to what I was seeing elsewhere in scripture. It was an Ephiphany(spelling correct?) moment for me. I then refuse to read Stephen's studies for nearly a year so I wouldn't be influenced by his interpretation. And I branched in studying the law on my own and on AO and over here.

Yes, it is my personal studies, but now I do read Stephen Jones studies too, but will verify all texts and I do not just accept things without verifying and doing my own studying.

Now Daryl, I have been answering all your questios. Now tell me which death Paul died when he died every day?

Elle's line of reasoning is faulty. It goes like this.

Paul says we who believe die daily, that we are crucified with Christ, that we are baptized into Christ's death. What does Paul's constant references to death mean? We don't literally die, do we? Rather, Paul must mean that we repent and are changed. THEREFORE, death = repentance; and further, the concept of death being symbolic of that which leads to renewal, the second death for the wicked must mean repentance and renewal for them as well. The law of the jubilee suggests that it must be so too: everyone eventually returning to the land of their God-given inheritance.

That line of reasoning sounds very logical, except for one thing. Paul was not saying that death = repentance, BUT that repentance IS LIKE death, that our sorrow for doing wrong and sincere vow not to repeat the same offense IS LIKE burying the old way and living anew in a kind of resurrected spiritual state of true obedience. The difference in reasoning is subtle but very important. We know that the Bible often characterizes Satan as being THE Serpent, and Christ being THE Lamb. Yet it is neither that Satan = the Serpent, nor that Christ = the Lamb. Rather that the innocent lamb that you see on the sacrificial altar is LIKE Christ, and that the slithering, meandering, stealthy movement of the serpent that you see is LIKE Satan.

Repentance is LIKE death; but death in no way, IS repentance. It takes a little while and some thought to grasp the difference between the two. I die daily for sure, but when I die, the undertakers will bury me and I will sleep until The Lord calls me when He returns. I am CRUCIFIED with Christ indeed, but when the wicked are CAST in the lake of fire, unlike me, they will NEVER be raised again.
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Pretty clever, huh? It's only going to get worse in the last days and if we aren't on our toes, we won't be able to grasp the differences.

Good post, as this is also how I understand it.

"unlike me" ?

Your thoughts Asygo with your comment on which death Paul died daily?

Not the 2nd death. It's more likely this: How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:2) For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

This is the sense in which repentance = death. Looking at the law, the death it demands for sin never allowed the sinner to come back the next day to do it again.

You say I read it too literally. I could say the same for you. Try this on for size: Whenever you read about repentance, it doesn't really mean repentance; what it means is that the person will die. When the law says slaves will be set free, it is merely symbolic of the fact that sinners will die.

That argument rests on the same logic as yours, namely, take what the Bible says and claim it is really symbolic of what you wish it said.

Seeing this is a forum mainly for Seventh-day Adventists, I prefer a much better source than the one Elle is using to back up her own personal studies and interpretations, and that is the writings of Ellen White, who I believe is God's messenger for these last days in which she is God's lesser light (her writings) leading us to the greater light (the Bible writers).

In other words, if Elle and her source/s go contrary to God's messenger for these last days, I will choose her writings over anyboody's personal studies and interpretations.

I also look at the whole Bible (OT & NT) and don't limit it to the Law of Moses, or interpret it to the Law of Moses.

But even if we look at the Mosaic law, it's hard to make a good case that death=repentance.

This discussion seems to be merging the spiritual meaning and physically meaning of death as if it were one and the same thing.

Paul uses the physical reality of death to ILLUSTRATE spiritual meanings, not to merge the two.

Ephesians 2-
We are dead in our sins, God through His spirit quickens us.
We aren't physically dead, but our spiritual natures are dead and need the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

Our carnal natures are naturally alive and flourishing, this carnal nature (see Romans 8) is what is put to death so the spiritual nature can flourish.

When Paul says he 'dies daily" it is referring to the carnal nature that he must "starve' so the "spiritual nature' can thrive.

This has nothing to do with the physical death when our breathing and heartbeat stops and we return to dust.
To converge the two as if they were the same leads into dangerous paths.

Yes and these are not talking about a physical death right? but a spiritual death which is a repentance or submission to the will of the Lord.


Your interpretation is what Isaiah calls vomit(interpretation of men) for you only took portion of the Jubilee law and ignored the other parts that doesn't agree with you. Jesus said we need "to live by every word that proceeded from the mouth of the Lord." Not only by the ones that agree on my believes, or twist the word of the Lord to say what I want it to say.

The Law of Jubilee is clear that at the end of the 49th year, all debt are erased(cancelled) which means total forgiveness and everyone is restore back to their inheritance.

"AV Lv 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family....AV Lv 25:28 But if he be not able to restore [it] to him, then that which is sold shall remain in the hand of him that hath bought it until the year of jubile: and in the jubile it shall go out, and he shall return unto his possession."

No that is not true, the proof is just above. Then I have provided scriptures to disproof everyones arguments or theories and met everyones scripture proofs who claim texts where saying this and that which where false which was twisted texts or adding things to texts that wasn't there. The worse is how many just ignore so much texts that doesn't say what they believe.

The SDA Church has taken interpretation of men and made it their foundation on it instead of the word of God and neglecte their duty to test all doctrines and interpretations against the Bible.

I thought your ears were open, Asygo. But this shows that it is not yet your time. That's ok. I'm not here to convert or convict people for it is the work of the Lord. I'm here to study to understand the Lord's ways if you have me some more.

I'm not saying that you don't hear at all the Lord for everyone hear His voice. However, most cannot different it from the voice of the old man, nor do they know His ways.

However, I appreciate your respond and honesty...

Bless you

dedication, That's what I've been saying. There are a physcial death and a Spiritual death...the two are different. However, everyone is having difficulty to admit that our baptism is a spiritual death -- repentance and submission to the will of the Lord.

Daryl, my source is the Bible and the Bible alone. I've been here 5 years and my post shows this. I do not appreciate the false witness you have just given against me in this post. You have ask me in post #155753 the following
You did me wrong and I expect an appology.

At the odd time, I may read other's people thinking or studies at times as anyone does when I read what you or Asygo or anyone says on the forum, but I will verify it all against the Bible as instructed in Deut 13 & Deut 18 and Is 8:20 and Ez 14. I do not rest on others people interpretation like you admitted you do and live off every word they say as if they are infallible like you and most of us SDAs do with EGW. You admit this above by which she and James never approved of that and said it was a Christian duty to study for ourselves the Bible and prove all things from the Bible.

It was that EGW counsel that I took seriously and was my purpose to come here 5 years ago. To prove all things and come to know the Lord's way is still my purpose today. Nothing has changed. The only thing that has changed is I have become more acquainted with the Law and what the Bible says and it is very evident it doesn't say what the SDA denomination has taught us.

Elle,

If as you say you are using the Bible and the Bible alone, please respond to THIS POST using the Bible alone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle, while the Bible is the standard, are you saying Ellen White is contrary to the Bible?

What about the law for the slave who gets his ear pierced? Does he also go free at the Jubilee?

What I and others have been saying is that the second death is a physical death, while you say it is a spiritual death. Right?

The Law of Jubilee can be found in Lev. 25. It is based on this principle: that God claims both the land and people as HIS. We are only custodians for a time. He says, "The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine." (Lev. 25:23) and again, "the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." (Lev. 25:55)

The Law of Jubilee served as a deterrent against exploitation, against slavery, against bondage; it was a means of escape from servitude and pain. It foreshadowed the freedom we will enjoy in Christ and the opportunity granted to the world to escape its bondage to the Devil. We have ONE Master, God; and He is not a tyrant, but someone who forgives, heals and gives life.

The Day of Jubilee was the Day of Atonement, as it is written, "Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you." (Lev. 25:9-10) On that Day, the sin of the congregation was taken away, the scapegoat was taken away, bondage and servitude were taken away, and the people who remained were blessed and set free. As it is written, "If the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:36)

But who does the Son set free on the Day of Jubilee? Those who afflict their souls (i.e. sincerely repent of their sins), as it is written, "[the Day] shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord ... any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people; and any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people." (Lev. 23:26:32)

It is evident therefore, that the Day of Jubilee had one of two results. Those who sincerely repented, were forgiven, cleansed, set free and inherited the earth under their feet, were returned to their lost possessions. Those who callously disregarded the day were cut off, destroyed, lost, driven away and were never to be see or heard of again. That was the Law of Jubilee.
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I have not been following this thread, but if everybody will be saved in the end, this means one can be saved even if he/she lives in sin; why would someone accept Christ and quit sin?

for this very informative post, which makes sense to me in light of the other Bible references on the Second Death, etc.

Wondering how Elle will respond to it.

There are a lot of people out there who say their source is the Bible alone in how they interpret it, but that doesn't make their interpretation correct, which is why we have so many contradictory interpretations of the Bible, which is also why God called Ellen White to be the lesser light to lead us to a proper understanding and interpretation of the Greater Light.

The Secret Rapture Doctrine is one BIG example of a wrong interpretation of the Bible by an individual that has infiltrated more than one church denomination. Other examples are the wrong interpretation of what happens to a person immediately after death, the Sabbath-Sunday issue, the Law has been done away issue, etc.

Christ warned us about wrongly dividing the Word of God and following every wind of doctrine. The Serpent wrongly divided the Word of God to Eve and Eve listened and followed that wrong wind of doctrine. The Devil even tried to do the same thing to Christ in the Wilderness, but without success.

Believing that everybody will ultimately be saved in the end and nobody will be lost goes contrary to rightly dividing the Word of God.

If I am wrong, then show me where Christ has told us that we are to interpret the Word of God to what is written in the Law of Moses?

enuf sed

As a man Jesus said this "Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

The Law that Jesus is referring to is the Law of Moses by which Jesus gave to Moses himself. Jesus is attesting in Mat 5:18 that the Law is prophetic and not even a tittle or a jot (which are the smallest pen strokes of the Hebrew character of a word that consititue vowels) will pass without being all fulfill.

Then Jesus gave in the Deut 13 and Deut 18, the Laws how to test prophets who are to be tested against what was already said and taught by Moses. Then this is confirm again in Is 8:20 that says if anyone doesn't speak according to the law, they have no light in them.

Daryl I have already layed the details of these texts in so many discussions for over a year now. For you to come again to ask for proof shows you have refuse to accept the words of Jesus in the Law of Moses because they prove your teachings of men wrong.

Despite you accept Jesus laws or not, the law of Jubilee will be fulfill according to what He spoke to Moses and not one jot or tittle will pass until all is fulfill.

Is 26:9 says "for when thy judgment are in the earth, all the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

This day will come at the Great White throne Judgement when the works of all those from the 2nd ressurection will be individually all judges and the Lord will pass a sentence on them. The sentence will be enforced. There will be no question if whether the judgment of the Lord will be correct...for He knows the truth and has all the evidence and knows what sins these individual commited and their measure of guilt in each action. Each sins will be properly measured with an equivalence of debt with a just sentence (an eye for an eye) according to His fiery Law for each sin ever committed. And then, like our own tribunal court, the sentence will be enforced on these people and they will have to work to pay up all their debts-sins ever committed. This is "the restitution of all things talked about by the prophets since the world began" Act 3:21

By working up to pay their debts as servants while being supervised and employed by their redeemer, they will learn not to steal, not to commit adultery, and etc... restitution will be made towards all victims and the offender will eventually be restore.

Daryl, I fully agree with you in what you are saying here. Elle has not succeeded in convincing me that her peculiar views are Biblical, even it she feels disappointed in us.

Elle, there were no vowel points in Biblical Hebrew when Jesus was here on earth. They were added several hundred years later.

The Law - Ten Commandments - are elsewhere in the Bible referred to as a covenant, and described as such. This is an eternal covenant. I believe that the terms of this covenant is best described by Jesus Himself, as well as by Paul and John.

Elle,

Is the Ceremonial Law part of the Law of Moses?

The underline in not true. No where it says we are to be custodians for a time but the opposite that what we have lost(via sin-debts) will return to us regardless if our debt has been paid in full or not at the Great Jubilee. You are adding stuff that is not there and twisting things to serve the vomit(teachings of men according to Isaiah) that you cherish.

You show you have not carefully read the law of Jubilee or your idols are so heavy they are twisting things so badly for you[Ez 14]. After this post I will replay to Asygo and in that reply I have listed the basic principles of the law of Jubilee by quoting texts and references. You shoud re-read it but next time, leave your idols at the door if you want to really know what the Lord actually says in His Law.

Yes but the trumpet only sounds at the end of the 49th millenium year period when the two works of atonement is finish. Only then all the captives will be set free. The first work of Christ was done when He came from the tribe of Judah and took the scepter.

Jesus will come to execute His second work at His second coming when He comes as Joseph “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood” Rev 19:13 of goats (Gn 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood;). This second work begins with "out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and rule them with a rod of iron." Rev 19:15 during the 7th Millenium. After the millennium the Bible talks further of His 2nd work with the judgment at the Great White Throne where every sin will be judge and everyone raised at the 2nd resurrection will pay their debts as it is written in the Jubilee law. And yes at the end of Jesus 2nd work which is when the great Jubilee day, everyone’s debt whether paid in full or not, will be forgiven from their debt and be restore back to their inheritance(to their immortal body).

Yes, but also the Lord did swear that “every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear[swear 7 times]” Paul renders it that they ”confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”. What part of EVERY didn’t you understand? Every means EVERY man…will bow(submit = repent), every man will confess (or swear 7 times) that Jesus Christ is Lord” and note this confessing “to the glory of God the Father.” So the Bible says that Jesus will bring everyone to Repentance via His great 2nd work through His Judgment that He will bring the "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."Acts 3:21 ... "for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Is 26:9
.

Your underline conclusion is very false and you do not speak according to what the Law of Jubilee says …it says that every one will return to their possession regardless whether their debt has been paid in full or not.

To answer your question, let’s first lay out some basic principles of the Law of Jubilee and the Law of Redemption which reveals the Lord’s mind and plan.

Basic Principles of the Law of Jubilee

A. All sin is the breaking of the law(1Jn 3:4 “…sin is lawlessness(anomia))

B. All sin is rendered as a debt to be paid. (Mat 6:12 “forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors”; Mat 18:25” But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold… and all that he had, and payment to be made”. )

C. if you cannot pay your debt, you are to be sold as a slave(servant or worker)(see Mat 18:25 quoted above; Ex 22:3” [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.” Lev 25:50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.)

D. until the sum of your debt is paid off or until the time of Jubilee comes, which ever comes first.(see Lev 25:14-15;25-27;39-41; 49-54)

E. A Redeemer who is next of kin, have the right to come and redeem (pay) your debt at any time.(Lev 25:25 “If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away [some] of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold…)

F. The debt is not cancelled, it is simply transferred to the Redeemer and you now owe to your close relative; thus need to work off your debt for him instead of the hard-slave-Master. (Lev 25:39 “And if thy brother [that dwelleth] by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: 40. [But] as an hired servant, [and] as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, [and] shall serve thee unto the year of jubile:” see also v. 53

G. The Redeemer have the right to demand that you work the full payment of the debt or until the Jubilee, part of the debt, or cancel the whole debt all together (Mat 18:27-35 see quote below)

H. Even if the Redeemer has cancel your debt, He can change his mind and demand full payment of the debt afterwards (Mat 18:27-35 “Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. ..:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.)

I. Your close relative-Redeemer will treat you better than the distant related task-master. (Lev 25: 53 [And] as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: [and the other] shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight. Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light)

J. Here the way Lev 25:49 and elsewhere is worded, it appears that all will end up, in some point of time, to have a redeemer. Before I was under the impression that some might not have a redeemer after the millennium. So more studying to be done for me to understand this part of the Jubile. ( Lev 25:49. Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or [any] that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.)

Purpose of the Law & Judgment
It is the fiery law that brings judgment, define what is sin, and convicts us of sin, and teaches us the law. Rom 7:7 “ I had not known sin, but by the law:” So the purpose of the Law and Judgment is to teach us what is sin and to bring us to righteousness.

The Believers and Unbelievers Group
The Law of Jubilee above define these 2 groups :
1. Children of Israel(=believers or Church people, wheat company) redeemed by a close of kin
2. Strangers and bondmen or bondmaids of the heathen (=unbelievers, the grape company)

After the millennium, these 2 groups will undergo specifics judgment that the law describes and elsewhere in the Bible like Luke 12:42-49 saying that the judgment of the believers(group #1) that some will have “their portion with the unbelievers”(group #2). Notice that the text says that there will be a portion reserve for both group #1 and #2. We won’t go further than this and now get to your question.

The Eared Pierced Group

The ones that have their ears pierced were originally from group #1(redeemed believers) and they refused to be let go free during the first yearly Millennium Sabbath and now constitute a new group called the overcomers.

3. Ears Pierced believers (= Overcomers, 144k, the firstfruits, the barley company)

What set the overcomers apart from #1 group is them refusing to be set free at the first Yearly Sabbath millennium; in this they are pledging to stay and work for their Master-Redeemer forever. This ceremony of having their ears pierce to the door(laws of Master) represents the Sonship adoption for they now agree with their Master house(kingdom)'s laws and want to serve him eternally. Basically to agree with the laws means that they are written on their heart. The ears pierced symbolize their ability to hear & obey their Master’s voice perfectly(“my sheep hear my voice and follow me”).

Difference between Obeying the laws and Agreeing with it
A person may obey and submit to the will of his master but may not agree with His will. Being in agreement with their Master laws set’s them apart from the other church members who are still under the obedience-bond-type of relationship. Paul illustrated this in Gal 4:22-31 with the two type of marriage relationships. Hagar who was the bond-wife represents the old covenant by which obedience is required. Sarah who was the free-woman represents the new covenant and the relationship with her husband is not based on the idea of obedience but the idea of agreement. This is what Hosea 2:16 refers about when it say ”you will call me Ishi [my Husband], and will no more call me Ba-al”[My Lord or Master].

A marriage relationship starts with the two not always being in agreement. When there’s disagreement, the wife needs to submit to the husband. However, when the married couple becomes in agreement in all things, there is no more need to have a master-servant relationship for it is irrelevant. Authority is exercised only when there is disagreement where the one in authority needs to order the other to do his will.

Therefore, the overcomers who now are adopted sons, will work with their husband-Jesus side eternally and share the throne to rule over the nations with an rod of iron. Since they will administer the fiery laws with Jesus at the Great white throne this makes the Jubilee irrelevant to them ...and remember from the other post .... the overcomers have already died that 2nd death.

That's not true. Isaiah prophecies that the wicked will die, perish, be no more. He says:

"They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish. (Isaiah 26:14)

And that from the very chapter you are using to prove that the wicked will enjoy eternal life. Something is terribly wrong with your reasoning.

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Is sin a debt that has to be repaid?

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The Day of Jubilee is the Day of Atonement; and on the Day of Atonement, the wicked are cut off and destroyed. They do not live forever.
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Excellent question James. What scriptures say is where you want to get your answer.


The Lord always SOLD the people for their sins as Judgment

In the past, the Lord repeatively sold a nation or individuals to someone else as a judgment for their sins. There so many scriptures denoting this that time is not on my side to list them. For today I will only focuss on what was done in the book of Judges as I have already studied this in the past and have the scriptures at hand. Selling us for our sins has always been His ways from the beginiing even with Adam.

Besides what was quoted above, another Law where this principle is found is in Lev 26 and Deut 28 which basically says the follwoing "if you do not obey my laws...I will sell you to the foreigners."

When Israel entered the land of Canaan and started to worship Baal of Peor(The Lord of the gaps) and the Queen of Heaven, they angered the Lord. So He SOLD them for their sins to the foreigners and let the foreigners RULE over them. This is how the Lord used His judgment for their sins to teach Israel His laws. We see this judgment in the book of Judges 6 times.

#1. 8 years to Mesopotamia, Jud 3;
Jdg 2:14 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel... and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies.

Jdg 3:8 . Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.

#2. 18 years to Moabites Jud 3:14;

#3. 20 years to Cannanites Jud 4:3;
Jdg 4:2 And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host [was] Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

#4. 7 years to Midians Jud 6;

#5. 18 years to Ammonites Jud 10;
Jdg 10:7 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines, and into the hands of the children of Ammon.

#6. 40 years to the Philistines Jud 16

So if this is the WAYS of the Lord to Judge His people why do you think the Lord will suddenly change His ways at the Great White throne?

Tx for letting me know about this. I will check if what you say is true. I'm not saying I disbelieve you, but it is a duty to verify every thing. So if this is the case then the tittle and the jot must be related to the yod character in the Hebrew alphabet which is the smallest letter. Actually that would make more sense than the vowels little markings on the consonents.

Johann you have made the same remark in the discussion on Is 8:20. I have responded to you there. You never responded back to my post. I would appreciate that you conduct an intelligent constructive discussion with scripture in the appropriate discussion. Here is not the place to discuss about this.

I believe we have the freedom on this forum to respond or not respond to any post.

If I do not respond it could be because I disagree but leave it to others to reply, which they often do, and are able to respond better than I would do it.

Then if you cannot prove what you think the Bible says in an intelligent study in the discussion where it is addressed where proof and scriptures are brought forth, then don't keep bringing it up in other discussions when it is not the place and all you're doing is diverting the topic at hand. Daryl shouldn't of done that himself and I should of brought him back to the proper discussions where it was discussed.

Elle, you never responded to mine either, and I was using pure scripture. This seemed the appropriate discussion for the texts I posted as well.

In case it has been buried among other posts and hasn't been noticed, I'll repost it.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Something is terribly wrong with your reasoning James which you have shown up to now that you
#1. rejects & ignore scriptures that doesn't agree with your vomit you cherish,
#2. twist those you can, and
#3. add to scripture what is not there.

All of this to protect some vomit(teachings of men)???

Let's bring v.13 that brings in the context of the passage you quoted above.

AV Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, [other]lords['ab, father] beside thee have had dominion over us: [but] by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Now it is the other 'lords'['ab, father] this following text that you quoted is addressed to and not the inhabitants of the world that Is 26:9 says clearly. So your argument is already defeated. But let's go a little further. This word 'lord'=father is compared with the Lord--Yahweh. This text may be referring to other gods, or kingdoms run by pagan kings that the Lord had sold them to described in the book of Judges.

Now let's look at your text more closely.

"They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish. (Isaiah 26:14)

Now remember that the Lord said to Moses that He speaks to prophets in dark speeches -- in riddles -- that they are symbolic form of speech that needs to be solved. This applies to this text for Isaiah is a prophet. I am not going to get into this, but will only bring to your attention the underline.

Let's ignore that word the Lord told us that these are riddles to be solved for a second and enter in your literal application and usage of this text you have used as proof. Well look at the enderlined portion "they will not rise". Oh??? Don't you believe they will ressurect at the second ressurection? Don't you believe they will be alive then??? Your reasoning is shown to be terribly wrong once again!!!

Once again, your argument doesn't hold water. Read it again, and this time please put your idols aside at the door(Ez 14). We all have idols of the heart including me, but it is very important to recognize them or those that are potentially be idols and be willing to put everything at the door before reading scriptures. If not, then the Lord said He has worded things in such a way that our idols will distort His word and be a stumblingbock for us.

Green I haven't ignored your post, but wanted to finish replying to Asygo and others about the 2nd death & Jubilee point first before jumping into something else by which your second question brought us into.

Eternal{aionian, an age-abiding] damanation(krisis, a tribunal) is not eternal death. First the definition of aionian is well accepted by theologians as meaning an age-abiding or undefined period of time. So the Judgment Age(Era) would be a better translation for “aionian krisis” which is the judgment at the Great white throne by which all the people will be thrown in the lake of fire which symbolize the execution of the verdict to restitute(pay) for their sins(see post #155911) until the Jubilee comes(see Post#155902. This is the type of judgment that is described in the law and also in history. We all believe that the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; thus there’s no reason why we would accept any other interpretation.
In the OT the word forever is Olam having the similar definition as Aionian.

Concerning the scriptures talking about the name blotted out is from being part of the nation of royal priesthood. The Lord is not going to have anyone ruling with Him who doesn’t know His laws or are in disagreement with them just as you show yourself to be. If you do not come in agreement with the Lord’s ways described in His laws, then your name will be blotted out mainly because you are not fit to be one of His royal priesthood men(or women) that constitute His body and will reign with Christ over the nations by teaching & bringing judgment according to His laws. You are not fit, because you don’t know His ways nor His laws, so how on earth can you rule with Him? However this doesn’t mean you won’t have any part to play in His plan as you might end up being one of the Levites that serves the priesthood. And when you will be in His Firery Fire it will purify you for the Lord said it will.
Looking up the Hebrew words brings a different perspective than this English translation. This is not saying these people are eternally dead. This talks of the first death as everyone dies the 1st death and yes…. The Lord will bruise or violently strike us and for most of us … to our death. This we see all the time and it is His ways to humble us and purifying us. But we all know that after the first death, there is a resurrection and a judgment.

Same comments as the two above.

Same comments as the above.

Same comment as above, but I would add that the word used to describe the destruction man here brings a good perspective. The old man of sin which is all of us have in our Adamic heritage, wants to rule with our own laws instead of the Lord’s. This is rooted in all wicked unbelievers or rebellious believers, both are antichrists like John talks about. The proper definition of antichrists is someone that rule in the place of the Lord. We are called to rule with Christ and with His Laws and not without Him and with ours own Laws of our own makings. So the definition of Shamad brings in that the purpose to destroy us is to overthrow us from being little gods and antichrists. It is not our laws or ways that will last, maybe it will for a time during(‘ad) but it is the Lord’s ways(laws) that will be establish on earth forever.

Well, this takes place at His 2nd coming which is also described in Rev 19 stricking the nations with His tongue and He shall rule over them with an iron rod. So we have two pictures talking about the same event. Both are in harmony but describing the same event giving different information that complements one and another. One says His second coming is a flaming fire, the other says He is on a white horse with His tongue striking the people. Deut 33:2 says His laws are a fiery fire, and we know that Jesus is the word of God that spoke gave the laws to Moses and any of additional words He speaks becomes laws. So the literal interpretation that His second coming will burn everyone around is once again only vomit(teachings of men) for if that occurs then how can He rule the nations with an rod of iron afterwards if they are all burned?

Then the part about “everlasting destruction” this is describing the judgment at the Great White throne where the people will “tino” will pay the price for their sins(see post #155911)and the baptism of fire will burn(destoy the carnal flesh).

Paul describe this refinery process in 1Cor 3:10-15, how a man who didn’t build with the foundational material layed by Christ, whatever material(wood, hay, stubble) not from Christ foundation, will burn yet “himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”

None of it talk about eternal death. Read again Green but this time put your idols at the door(Ez 14) and take every word that proceeded from the mouth of God and not by some that seems to say what you want it to say.

The eternal death concept is not biblical and you have not given me any proof of it.

And you're mistaken...the Lord did give a second opportunity in His Laws which is call the Second Passover(Num 9).

Second Passover = Second Opportunity
Number 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: 7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel? 8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you. 9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD. 11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Passover represents justification and this law shows the express mind of the Lord built into the divine plan by giving a second opportunity for those who missed observing the first Passover. It is not a second chance, but a second opportunity for their’s no chances with the Lord. This is in His plan to give a second opportunity for those who didn’t have the opportunity to hear about Jesus or heard a severe appalling misrepresentation of Him from His immature faithless lawless asleep servants. Verse 10 list the two reasons why a person would qualify to receive the second opportunity to observe the second Passover(=be justified).

#1 by reason of a dead body : We all have inherited the mortal body of Adam and touch it every day. Those that died the second death, the old man was killed and resurrected as a new creature in Christ. However the unbelievers are still in contact with the mortal body making them unclean to keep the Passover. (Num 19:11)

#2 or be on a journey afar off: Many through their life on earth where on a journey far away from the Lord that inhibited them to keep the first Passover. Whatever the reason may be, the Lord has provided them a second opportunity to be justified.

These two reasons in this law will cover all the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection and give them an opportunity to be justify by the blood of the lamb. However they will still need to go through the wilderness experience (baptism of fire = sanctification) like all of us did before entering into the promised land to receive their inheritance.

Elle,

That's a fascinating case regarding the second passover. I must admit that I had never noticed that one before. But let's look at this for a minute, for it does not teach a second chance as you might suppose.

Why could they not offer sacrifices the first time, at the first passover? It was because of God's law. The law forbad them to do so during the period of their uncleanness. This is why it was fitting that God should make an alternative for them to be able to still offer their passover sacrifice.

But come, Elle, is there any law of God which says "some people cannot be saved"? No, there is no such law. God says He will freely accept all who come to Him, and will in no wise cast them out.



God wants everyone to be saved. He has not made any law that prevents anyone from coming to Him.

Only our own choice and willful rebellion prevent our salvation. Why should there be a second chance to make your choice? In a way, such a concept would nullify the validity of your first choice. It would be like God saying--I won't give you power of choice the first time around if I didn't like your choice...you'll be forced to choose again.

What do you think?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

enuf sed.

I agree.

1. The "second opportunity" to keep the Passover is NOT a second Passover. Jesus died ONCE, ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME as the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. There is no other sacrifice to be made. The "second apportunity" is an indication that even those far away or cut off because of unfortunate circumstances, are still partakers of the gift of salvation AT THE SAME TIME with those who are near. Jesus illustrated this principle in the parable of the workers of the vineyard, when those who worked all day and those who were called late both received the SAME REWARD AT THE SAME TIME.

2. You failed to mention the warning that God gave Moses and Aaron, that those who treated the Passover callously, disregarding the service, were to be cut off from among the people (Num. 9:13). Do you know what it means to be CUT OFF FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE? It means "eternal death", as it is written, "So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest." (Heb. 3:11) They die. They never eat of the Tree of Life.
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Nice try James. Your logic fails again. Yes Jesus died ONCE...but tell me how did you get justified when He died 2000 years ago??? And what about Adam and all those before His death??? It is a second opportunity to keep the passover feast, it doesn't mean that Jesus has to die every time the passover feast is kept??? If your reason have any validity, then why didn't Jesus died twice for both passover stated in the Law? Your reasoning doesn't work James!


As defined by the Law, there are 3 groups-Harvests. The firstfruit-Barley-group, the Believers-Wheat-group, and the Unbelievers-grape-Group. The firstfruit group partake of their reward at the first ressurection and not with the other two groups. The Believers and unbelievers partake of their reward at the general ressurection after the millenium. Well we can't termed as a reward after the millenium. It is a judgment which produces two different type of harvest. But as far as I understand their reward of the immortal body is only received at the Great Jubilee.

But your point that the firstfruit and the other groups will receive their reward at the same time, is not true. For the Believers and the Unbelievers Yes, but not for the Firstfruit and the other 2 groups. Jesus says so very clearly in here :

AV Lk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?43 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Notice in verse 49 & 50 that Jesus is referencing His coming judgment with the fire He's going to send on earth which is related as a baptism.

You showed yourself once more only seeing the letter of the Law and not understanding the mind and intend of Jesus behind the Law. The word of Jesus I quoted above just happen to explain what He meant with the cutting off in verse 46. It is a cut off from not making it to be part of the firstfruit = Kingdom of Priest -- Holy Nation(Ex 19:6; 1Pet 2:9).

Elle, if there is no freewill, why is there a need for a "second opportunity"?

And if there is no freewill, why are you objecting to Daryl and James trying to get you to see your errors. If Daryl had no freewill, then it is directly from God and you are speaking against God.

(And it is not to be construed that if there is freewill, that you are not speaking against God)

The most well known Bible verse in the Bible came to my mind in relation to this topic.

Two key thoughts are presented here:

1 - perish,
2 - everlasting life.

In other words, those who believe in Him will not perish, but will have everlasting life tells me, however, those who do not believe in Him will perish and will not have everlasting life.

Those two thoughts, perish or everlasting are both consequences of not believing or believing in Him.

Perish = 2nd death from which there is no further resurrection.

Everlasting life = No 2nd death.

Yes….that’s the point. Notice the Lord added and additional condition for those that are “on a journey afar off”. This was not something requested.

You’re reading it wrong, it says “it will have all men to be saved.” You make man Sovereign over the Lord. All in the Bible…the Lord says I will show you “that I am the Lord God”….over 200 texts…. His Sovereignty is what He is going to show us. Man in not sovereign over the Lord. Never was, never will be. The Lord always had control over everything that happened, even with sin around, and all things went, is going, and will be going according to His plans….it never went according to man’s plan. You preach doctrines of men that wants to uplift man sovereignty over the Lord.
There’s no such things in the Bible. All over, we see our rebellion brings us correction and judgment. You just don’t understand the Lord’s judgments because you do not study His laws where it is detailed and show His mind and ways. The Lord knows how to correct His children and the nations. He knows how to break(“destroy” see Greek word “apolumi” destroy, lost) them, so He can restore them after.
They never had a choice on the first time around. If the Lord didn’t open their ears or didn’t helkuo(Greek for drag) them in the first place, they never had the opportunity. That’s why they were still in the Adamic covering – death and couldn't observe the first passover. If they would have been justified like the believers, they wouldn’t of been covered in death. The Lord planned to give them a second opportunity according to His laws, because He knows how to work all things together.

The reason why it makes no sense to you is because you made man sovereign – making man’s will over the Lord will. The Bible is clear, even Satan’s will is not above the Lord’s. You don’t understand Rom 9 – 11 and you don’t understand what the Bible means when it says Man needs to be born again….and that the carnal man cannot understand spiritual things, that is not drawn to the Lord, and think all of this is foolishness.

By the measure you have judge them, the Lord will judge you. The purpose the unbelievers are there, it is to show you how blind and stiff neck you have become despite having scriptures in your hand.

Why are you arguing with the word of the Lord???? If the Lord has said that He will give everyone a second opportunity, then the Lord said it and we must accept His word. If the Lord provided for them to work off their debt according to the Law of Jubilee; then again, it is the Lords Law and since He said so, then we need to accept His word and adjust our thinking.

The Lord is not going to adjust His Law because Green Cochoa doesn’t agree with it and he thinks that 95% of the population deserve to be literally burn and be totally anhiliated. This is contrary to the mind of the Lord and ways for in His laws He forbade that anyone should pass their children in the fire and He said that this type of stuff never crossed His mind. And you ignore these words also, and you make the Lord a liar and a breaker of His laws … for the sake of an old teaching of men that stem from the Pagans practice? This shows how little you have tested all doctrines to the Bible.

Daryl, you just added to scriptures. That text does not say what you said and all human logic is not going to say what it doesn't say. There's strong warnings against adding to scriptures.

There's no eternal death in the Bible.

Jesus said death is a sleep because He conquered death by being the 2nd Adam and made all man alive. 1C 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I answered this to Green, See my reply to him above.

There is a will of man, but it is not free and far from it. It is extremely limited. Man's will is under subjections by so many factors..world, community, home, etc... events, weather, age, circumstances, upbringing, authorities, health, .... the list is very long what limits our will. Then beyond all of that, the will of the Lord is above all factors and He controls many events and factors that He can change all wills of men very quickly.

We are having this discussion right now. We do not know how much the Lord was behind the events in bringing us here versus our own will. I'm not saying man doesn't have a will but I wouldn't call it free when it is around 90% limited. But you may call your 10% what you can control as free is you want...But if your will conflicts with the Lord's plan...Guess whose going to have his will done?...It will always be the Lords will that will be done, and not yours.

From what I gathered, this is what I understand.

I do believe that Ellen White's early visions were from the Lord. However her interpretation of the vision shows that she still had some heart idols that needed some workings. We all have heart idols. They need to be identified at the least so we can leave them at the entrance before entering His presence to inquire of Him. If not, the heart idols will distort whatever was said by the Lord.(Ez 14) This doesn't make her vision not true and coming from the Lord.

Ellen White at that time, was a very young girl and didn't understand much of the Bible. She relied on the Pioneer's who brought the doctrines and she agreed to the ones she though was the best. She was relied(or assumed) that the Lord past usage of her, that He will tell her what was the best doctrines. They were all infactuated with the fact the Lord had used her in the early visions. However, what she didn't know was how to discern her voice apart from the Lord. And at time she mistakenly took her own voice as the voice of the Lord. It is no easy task to hear His voice. He speaks to all of us and we are all call to learn to differentiate it from our own voice. There's ways and it is described in the dietary laws(what spiritual food are clean) in Lev 11.

Ellen was a product of her time. She express what she understood the best she could. There's things she was revealed, and there's things she was not which did not come from the Lord.

What I admire and took to heart of what Ellen and James said, is not to take her words above the Bible and test all things. If you or any other SDAs would really follow EGW, they would put this into practice.

The main sin our church did is they desobeyed the Lord and constructed a house(denomination) while they were still in the wilderness. The Israelites were not allowed to build a house in the wilderness. It was against the Law. They were to move only when the Pillar of cloud or fire moved, and camp in tents from place to place wherever the Lord led them. This spiritually represents that we are pilgrims in the wilderness which is the Pentecost experience to learn the ways of the Lord's via various tests and trials that shows our heart while He reveal Himself. By learning His ways is one way to learn to hear His voice and differentiate it from all other voices in the world.

This is the Pentecost wilderness experience that is between the Passover and the Tabernacle Feast. Only when they entered the promised land at Tabernacle is their training complete. Only in the promise land can they build a house where they can live in the Lord and the Lord live with them symbolizing -- marriage.

But before the marriage ceremony happens(Tabernacles), it is forbidden for anyone to build a house which makes them enable to follow the pillar of the fire and cloud which leads us to the tests and new truth(revelations). This is the sin of the SDA church and all of those that insist that she has all the truths. Ellen White never said that and always said there was more truth to be shown. But the SDA church will never be able to be shown of it because they made themselves a house which was forbidden, and foolishly think that their house will never be destroy and will go through the tribulations while the reality is they are stagnate, blind, naked, etc... and does not hear the voice of the Lord nor can they follow His leadings.

Elle,

I understand that English may not be your native tongue. It is, however, my mother tongue. Furthermore, I'm an English teacher. I am nearly daily dealing with English grammar, meaning, or translation to other languages.

In this case, your premise is built upon an incomplete understanding of just one word--one word that makes all the difference to the meaning of the passage. It is a word that is infrequently used nowadays with the meaning it held at the time the Bible was translated to English. But we still can and sometimes do use it that way.

The word is "will." "Will" usually, in modern English, is used strictly as a helping verb (or auxiliary verb) in conjunction with another verb in its infinite form to indicate a future tense. However, "will" has another very important usage: it also means want. The modal verb "would," along with "will," can have this same connotation. For example, the Greek word behind "will have" (all men to be saved) is number 2309, and is also used in the following verse as "would."



That shows desire not literal future. If it meant what people "will" do to us in the future, then the saying could be correctly paraphrased as "Do unto others before they do unto you!"

God wants everyone to be saved. But God does not always get what He wants. Not everyone will choose His salvation, unfortunately.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, this text source is Greek not English. You cannot argue with an picked English translation.

I would appreciate to see the source of your quote above which is just a man's commentary. There's many different opinions flotting around in this Babylonian age. Anyone can always find one that says what you want it to say.

You err in 2 ways

#1 This Greek verb is in Present Active form . In the Free scripture4all software, they have the parsing view of all the verbs that are used. The Parcing View of that Greek verb thelo is "vi pres Act 3 Sg" Indicative Verb Present Active tense. The Lord is presently active in bringing all men into the truth which will reach a climax point at the Great White Throne where all truth will be brought forth. Most of man is in denial today including yourself in rejecting the word of the Lord for the sake of man's interpretation. Today you can argue and hold on to your denials of scriptures, But at the Great White Throne in front of the Lord, anyone's argument won't stand. Thus as the Lord fulfills His plan described in His Laws that shows His Ways and His Character...by which will bring all men into His truth, His truth will set you and everyone else free from their denials and from man's false teachings.

#2. Thelo is not define as "desire". Strong has defined it as "to determine". Big difference.


AV 1Ti 2:4 Who will have(thelo, to determine) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

YLT 1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

CLV 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.


It is the Lord ways and plans that is always fulfilled and not man. Most will die as an unbeliever or as a rebellious beleiver according to His plan. Very few are firstfruit-loyal believers. That's His plan. There's a judgment coming that will bring all truth on the table where all men will submit to His judgment and they will have to pay for their debt as according to the law of Jubilee. This will produce righteousness in all men as it is writen "when judgment comes unto the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn rightesousness" Is 26:9 This is the Lords Plan and it will be fulfilled. At the Great Jubilee Day, whatever debt that is still due will be erase. Then the prophesy of Jeremiah 33 will be fulfilled. All men will know the Lord because His laws will be all written in their hearts. After the Great Jubilee, there will be no more need for one man teaching another anymore because everyone will know the Lord.

This is how salvation & truth is brought to all men according to His plan described in His laws in the Pentateuch.

Elle,

Perhaps you err in the very manner of which you have accused me. The Bible verse that I presented was not a "man's commentary." It was Scripture. The word "would" in it is the very same Greek word as the one translated as "will have" in the text we are discussing. I did not use any "man's commentary" to provide that text. Yes, it is a translation to English. But you are using the English word "will" yourself--and not looking carefully at its Greek meaning. You have now provided a Greek word meaning which happens to appear most similar to your viewpoint, while ignoring the fuller meaning of the word which might correct that view.



The word can mean "to desire, to wish, to love, to determine, to will, to be resolved to, to take delight in, etc."

God certainly wishes everyone would be saved. He certainly wants everyone to be saved. He would love to have and would take delight in everyone being saved. But none of these usages would require that everyone must be saved. On the contrary, Jesus Himself spoke of those who will be eternally lost on multiple occasions. Matthew 18:8-9 is one such passage.

Why would Jesus tell us to be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell if our soul was truly immortal and destined for eternal salvation? Would you make the claim that Jesus lied, or just didn't know what He was really going to do to save everyone?



The Bible is plain enough on this point, Elle, that none need err.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Seems that Elle hasn't yet responded to Green's last post.

I don't think I will have the time to respond this week. Maybe next week. 3 items to respond. The first is easy but the two Matthew parable will take some studying prior and typing another long one to cover them.

I'm just curious --
wondering if Elle has pushed aside Ellen White as a spokes person for God (having granted her just a limited and flawed role in presenting truth while denying the greater volume of her writings as merely products of her time, based on studies of men and laced with her lack of understanding)

and if she has replaced her with Stephen E. Jones and his Gods kingdom, ministries.

Browsing through S.E> Jones' many articles and the titles and descriptions of his many books at his Gods kingdom-ministries website, I see an awful lot of similarities in his teachings and what Elle has presented.

Even the oft used phrase "heart idols" is rather prominent there.

There we find the Universal Reconciliation ideas, the will that is not free but over-ridden by God

In his blog we find "Ben Carson said Obamacare is the worst thing to happen to America" and "mega spy center is going up in flames" both of which Elle posted in the "New Global Economic Restructure" thread.



Now I'm sure Elle has plenty of thoughts of her own, that she gleaned from her own studies, but just curious if this is where she got the paradigm (the new platform) of her beliefs from.



So now I wonder, who is this Stephen Jones?
He claims to have had a 10 year wilderness experience that helped develop him for his present ministry.

He seems very active in promoting his theology on the internet. He, with another, has a Burning Bush Bible Institute (Bible School) with courses teaching his material.

Excellent job dedication!

While sometimes wondering if she's getting this stuff elsewhere, I kind of assumed no one else was that far out.

Interesting to look at the financial aspect of this Jones. It does seem to suggest money. Wonder if he's buying gold? selling his gold and buying silver? Or maybe just selling his silver to the pavement buyers?

Would you say, Elle, that you are able to know how to discern your voice from the Lord's and from others? Are you able to read the Bible and find things which others can't find and able to understand it? Would you say you are enlightened to understand the things in a way others aren't able to?

What evokes even further curiosity is that there are two Dr. Stephen E. Jones.

The first claims to be the child of missionaries, and that he was once a pastor of a small church (no denomination mentioned), took ten years out and returned to a new ministry. He's the Gods Kingdom-Ministries guy and has all these strange ideas of everyone being saved eventually, and no real choice, he even talks of the "asses"-- we usually don't use that term anymore but say "donkeys" but noticed both he and Elle used that illustration.

The second is a Physics professor at Brigham Young University and is into this Global Economic Restructure stuff, and all the conspiracy stuff etc.

Elle seems to have posted from both.

I don't think they are the same person unless he started as minister in a church, then during those 10 years was a professor in the Brigham Young University, and now is running all these so called "ministries".
Though that seems quite a stretch -- (the names Stephen and jones are after all very common names).

Though the "God's Kingdom" Jones, does have some of the restructure stuff on his website as well.

So are they different persons as it appears, or the same?
I don't know -- Just curious as I'm looking at the stuff.

The list of Texts

Acts 3:25;

Peter is preaching in the temple after healing the lame man.



The context plainly shows Peter is telling them they Killed the very one that was promised to Abraham Who would be a blessing to all people. Yes, Christ is a blessing to all people, but those who reject Him have rejected that blessing and will be destroyed.

exolethreuo = destroy utterly, to extirpate,

Don't spiritualize the plain words away.


Acts 3:21
This text comes from the same sermon as the texts above.


Peter is saying Christ has returned to heaven until the time to restore all things when he will come again.
It does not say all people who have ever lived will be saved.
That idea is read into YOUR PERSONAL definition of the "restoration of all things".
At that time sin will be WIPED out completely from the whole universe and peace and harmony will be restored.
That includes verse 23.

3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

exolethreuo = destroy utterly, to extirpate,




Gal 3:8;


This is saying the gospel blessings are offered to all nations. Yes, they are for all nations BUT
Notice who, however benefits --
THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH
Its not a matter of --only Jews are recipients of the promises to Abraham, but those promises include people of all nations WHO HAVE FAITH. They are justified through faith.

Again -- there is nothing here that everyone, no matter what they think, believe or do will be saved





Eph 1:9,10;


Paul is preaching the wonderful gospel message of Christ's great offer of salvation.
And Christ will gather ALL that are in Him,
but those who continue in their sins are excluded from the inheritance.

And there is no way I'm going to believe that those outside the inheritance will have to work off their debt. Which is saying in essence they will have to BUY their salvation. That is so anti-gospel, anti bible - and simply a re-structuring of the penance/earning merits concept taught by the Catholic church.


"Let no man deceive you with vain words"

1Tim 4:10;



The "labor and reproach" is patiently endured because of the promise of life to come.
The cross of Christ offers salvation to all men. ( 1Ti 2:4) Tells us that God desires that all be saved, and God has given people their temporal life {the life that now is with all its blessings} so they can become believers, yet how much more are these blessing for those who are believers. While offering salvation to all, it is effective for believers alone.


John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has everlasting life.



1Tim 2:1-6;



Paul is urging believers to pray for the salvation of unbelievers, for God desires that all men be saved.
Christ died for all.

And yes the word "will" has that meaning -- (desire that)
In all these texts the word "thelo" here translated "will" carries the meaning "desire" John 12:21; 15:7; 16:19; 17:24; 21:18; 21:22)
The whole concept is that God has made provision that all be saved, He would love to have all saved, and He desires us to pray for the salvation of others.
Yet further on Paul makes it plain that not all are saved:


drown -- sink into the deep
destruction -- destroy, ruin, death
perdition -- condemned to destruction,


1Jn 4:14;



Yes, God sent Jesus to save everyone in the world, no one needs to be excluded, but only those who accept that fabulous gift and accept Christ as their Saviour have the assurance of eternal life. He that rejects Christ, rejects life (Period)


Jn 3:17;



God didn't send Jesus to condemn an already condemned and bound for eternal death world -- a perishing world. He sent Jesus to provide a way to life! God loves people and provides salvation for all, but so many won't believe and stay in the condemned state.




1Jn 2:2;



The conditions are plainly spelled out here.
We can come with assurance to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. He has made provision for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world, so no one needs to worry that their sins are too great for Christ to forgive.
Yet, the condition is plain
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive and cleanse.


The bottom line in all these texts is this:
Condemnation and death was the fate of the whole world.
Christ came to offer life to everyone.
but the CHOICE remains with the person.
Will they choose Christ, the light and life?
Or will they choose to remain in sin, and darkness that ends, not only in the first death that all must suffer but in ultimate total destruction.

Elle seems to be silent in relation to these latest posts.

Dedication said it all.

I'm a bit busy right now and there's at least 5 discussions for me to address. So I don't know which one I'll address first.

Maybe it was five posts all in this same thread. In any case, take your time. I can understand being busy, as I've been quite busy lately as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I wish. No, it's in 5 differents threads with many posts in each....and I'm not very good in writing down my thoughts in good English. It takes me more time than most people to write something down.

I appreciate your understanding Green, and I do enjoy the discussions.

Elle, so you believe that no one will be in hell?

The last chapter of the old testament begs to differ with you...

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

ASHES. Not lesser believers, ashes. The idea that everyone makes it to heaven fits with the supremacist mindset of the Sacred Name movement.

You also seem to be getting deeper into your Sacred Name mindset Elle. Why would someone who is obviously not a devoted SDA believer want so desperately to congregate with SDA believers? Sounds like someone with an agenda, and very soon you will be tested on your faith and you will fail because you have not tended to the soil of your soul. The seed has fallen by the wayside, and the birds have taken what would have saved you.

You think you are more enlightened than Ellen White and come into our body of believers and try to convert others to your mindset? Oh how terrible for you in the last days.

I do pray for you. But I am not encouraged for you.