Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?

Are extreme weather events a sign of the times, a sign of end type events? Are they a sign of global warming? Are they a sign of God's displeasure? Are they a sign of Satanic activity? What?

Consider EGW:

The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

To those who are indifferent at this time Christ's warning is: "Because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." Revelation 3:16. The figure of spewing out of His mouth means that He cannot offer up your prayers or your expressions of love to God. He cannot endorse your teaching of His word or your spiritual work in anywise. He cannot present your religious exercises with the request that grace be given you. {6T 408.2}

Could the curtain be rolled back, could you discern the purposes of God and the judgments that are about to fall upon a doomed world, could you see your own attitude, you would fear and tremble for your own souls and for the souls of your fellow men. Earnest prayers of heart-rending anguish would go up to heaven. You would weep between the porch and the altar, confessing your spiritual blindness and backsliding. {6T 408.3}

As there is an existing thread under the same thread title, I renamed this thread.

Are extreme weather events a sign of the times, a sign of end type events? Are they a sign of global warming? Are they a sign of God's displeasure? Are they a sign of Satanic activity? What?

Who caused this storm? Freak of nature? God? Satan? Is God punishing? Is Satan causing this storm? Are we blind as to the real cause? EGW:The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

I moved the above posts from the Extreme Weather thread. That thread is not meant to be about APL's theology of God's punishment. It is about the weather. APL is free to discuss here his own take on said weather events.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I was going to do the same thing myself, but you beat me to it.

Green - HOW is weather a sign of the times. You want to separate weather from the Great Controversy. Why? I don't expect you to answer. You are the moderator of both of these threads, what difference does it make which thread I post in?

APL,

This is your thread. You can talk about what you like. Shall I ask you what reason you have for changing topics of every thread to be about whether or not God punishes? Why is this virtually your only subject for discussion? Why do you not open your mind to other subjects? It's a big world out there. What do you see? Do you only see a horde of people believing differently than you do about whether or not God punishes, and this has become your only agenda, to change the world by spamming your ideas into every nook, cranny and corner that you can find?

I wonder. I really wonder. You have yet to show me that you are balanced, my friend. You might really need to eat some eggs, you know. They'd do your mind some good.

To be sure, everything we talk about here at Maritime is related to the Great Controversy in one way or another. Why do we have separate topics? Did you ever think there were any legitimate topic here other than whether or not God punishes?

Your obsession is not my obsession. That is why I have chosen to talk about the weather in a separate line of thought, not to be permeated through and through and side-tracked by your pervasive pet topic. Did you notice that others who posted in the Extreme Weather thread posted about the weather and its effects, and did not need to speak of God punishing in the same thought? Are you able to comprehend the possibility of others seeing things in different ways than the ways in which you see them?

The Extreme Weather thread was not created especially for you to inject your pet theories into. It was created for everyone who had an interest in the current events of what is happening in these storms. They are certainly signs of the times, for we are told to expect such things. Jesus said "there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." The typhoon is one example of this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Weather, a function of nature, is under the direct control of Jesus. Nature can do nothing in and of itself. It is not self-acting. There are times when Jesus employs nature as a weapon in His arsenal to punish sinners. And there are times when He commands holy angels to use nature to accomplish His purposes. Plus there are times when He permits evil angels to manipulate nature to wreak havoc within the limits He sets and enforces. Evil angels are not free to do as they please. They can only do what Jesus allows them to do. Jesus is the mastermind - not nature, not sin, not evil angels. One way or another Jesus will do whatever it takes to accomplish His plan. If evil angels were to refuse to act in accordance with His will, He would simply command holy angels to do it or do it Himself. Jesus is not dependent upon evil angels. Nor are evil angels independent of Jesus; that is, they are not free to do as they please. Jesus is in control - not nature, not sin, not evil angels. Nothing happens by fate or chance. Jesus regulates everything. Evil men and angels are free to make choices, but Jesus is free to manage the outcome of those choices so that they serve His grand plan.

MM - God's wrath - Paragraph 3 of your quote unlocks the rest.

Just now a storm is preventing us from joining in the 50th birthday celebration of a relative on the other side of a mountain. Whose fault is that?

Some people keep their god in a box and use him for their own occasions.

Other people believe in and worship the God of Heaven who has created everything that is good, and who governs every aspect in their lives.

Is it the god in the box, or the universal God who is presented in Scripture?

gc:This is your thread. You can talk about what you like. Shall I ask you what reason you have for changing topics of every thread to be about whether or not God punishes? Why is this virtually your only subject for discussion? Why do you not open your mind to other subjects? It's a big world out there. What do you see? Do you only see a horde of people believing differently than you do about whether or not God punishes, and this has become your only agenda, to change the world by spamming your ideas into every nook, cranny and corner that you can find?

You are making an assumption that is unfounded! YOU say I changed subjects. Did I? You said that weather events are a "sign of the times". I will post part of my reply again HERE. "The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. " Now - is this NOT talking about the signs of the times? How then do you claim I have changed topics?

gc:I wonder. I really wonder. You have yet to show me that you are balanced, my friend. You might really need to eat some eggs, you know. They'd do your mind some good. 

Who here recently has had proven difficulty with their memory?

gc:To be sure, everything we talk about here at Maritime is related to the Great Controversy in one way or another. Why do we have separate topics? Did you ever think there were any legitimate topic here other than whether or not God punishes?

All life on this planet is influenced by one of two principles, Good or Evil. Commentating on a storm and the "true cause" is off limits to you?

gc:Your obsession is not my obsession. That is why I have chosen to talk about the weather in a separate line of thought, not to be permeated through and through and side-tracked by your pervasive pet topic. Did you notice that others who posted in the Extreme Weather thread posted about the weather and its effects, and did not need to speak of God punishing in the same thought? Are you able to comprehend the possibility of others seeing things in different ways than the ways in which you see them?

Because I see the world from a viewpoint of good and evil, means I am wrong, that is what you are saying. Perhaps you need to soften your heart some and see God "as he is". Do you have "Good News" to tell the world? Good news! Eat eggs. Good News! God will kill you is you don't love Him. Just News! A storm hit the Phillipians and we do understand the "true cause".

gc:The Extreme Weather thread was not created especially for you to inject your pet theories into. It was created for everyone who had an interest in the current events of what is happening in these storms. They are certainly signs of the times, for we are told to expect such things. Jesus said "there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." The typhoon is one example of this.

"Signs of the times"! This is what I was talking about, and you can't see it because your animosity towards those that challange your thinking. The Typhoon is indeed a "sign of the times". * * * HELLO GREEN * * * "The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. " Was this really off topic? I don't think so!

MM - Did God causes all the terrible weather events that hit Job?

To say that God inflicts suffering, is to say that God transgresses His own law. God will not do that.

Deleted.

APL, your view of how Jesus punishes sinners represents only one of the ways and means He employs. He does not rely on evil angels to execute justice.

He can exercise justice in letting sin takes it natural course. Sin is THE cause of death.

You seem to be supporting and refuting your statements in the same paragraph. But not sure.

It does seems very much supportive of:

So why do you say things like:


I mean, Jesus caused it, right? If Jesus did this, and everything Jesus does is good and holy, why do you seem to be objecting to what He does? You should be rejoicing in 'seeing the mighty power of God', as it is expressed through His workings of nature "in His arsenal to punish sinners", right? If Jesus is directly causing it, who are you to question it? Or do you think He made a mistake in sending this storm? Or do you think He didn't cause it?

Hmmm....

APL: Sin is THE cause of death.

MM: Jesus causes death.

Possible conclusion: Jesus is sin!

But if we reject the conclusion, then one of the statements must be wrong.

How would one determine who is correct? How would one go about determining whether it's sin or Jesus who causes death?

The long, lingering first death we experience is not the "wages of sin". It is the result of Jesus 1) implementing the plan of salvation and 2) denying sinners access to the fruit of the tree of life.

1. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God." {1SM 230.1}

2. Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

Note especially the fact sinners would live forever if they could access the fruit of the tree of life. This fact refutes the idea sin causes death. Being unable to eat fruit from the tree of life is what causes the first death. And the lake of fire is what causes the second death.

This is a small technicality, but may be significant to some minds: Sin is THE cause of the death sentence.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Jesus willingly suffered and died on the cross. It makes me terribly sad. He also willingly causes, commands, or permits natural disasters. It makes Him sad. It makes me sad. But I am glad He is in control - not sin, not nature, not evil angels.

And there lies the issue! Does sin cause sickness, disease, death, or does God? This really gets to the heart of the great "Controversy". Is sin the heinous thing that it is because it destroys God's creation, or is does sin just make God mad and thus needs to execute the sinner, because sin will not kill the sinner. James 1:15 "Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." Green would like us to believe that sin does not bring forth death, but sin brings forth the sentence of death. Perhaps the devil was right! Eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge will not kill you. It will only make God mad and HE will kill you. 1 Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." If God is the cause of death, then is God the enemy? I think not! Christ was "slain by the sin of the world." {DA 772.2} Christ was not slain by God. Mark 15:34 "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This does not say, why are you torturing me, why are you killing me. It says what I have been saying, that the wrath of God is His giving up, letting go, the "hiding of His face". Oh what we can see Father as He is revealed by Jesus.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes Green - HOW is the sentence executed? READ GC 36.1: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

You say God is an executioner. EGW says NO. You say sin does not cause death, as did Satan BTW. EGW says yes it does.

EGW:It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

APL, no one is disagreeing with your quote. Please believe me. But there is more to it. The following passages make it clear Jesus also employs nature:


Both are true.

Sin is not the cause of death. Sinners would live forever with sin if they ate regularly from the tree of life. Punishment will be the cause of second death.

He employs nature by not holding back that which would cause harm. Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

HOW did God sent the fiery serpents? This is exactly as it says in GC page 36. God is not the executioner, but he removes his protection.

APL, you seem to be suggesting serpents and natural disasters are equivalent. You also seem to think divorce, capital punishment, and waging war are equivalent.

There are similarities. God keeps the "natural" disasters in check. God kept the serpents in check. You did read the accompanying EGW quote, right? She is the one saying this, I'm just quoting her. Killing - is not killing transgression of God's law? Adultery, is not adultery transgression of God's law? YES to both. So when God's permissive will is read on the laws for polygamy and/or divorce, does this mean God sanctions transgression of the law? Not in the least! God is mitigating the damage. Ditto killing.

This is interesting coming from you. You say that nature is not self-acting, but man would live forever if they would eat from the tree of life. Is not God involved? What about Jesus? He is the life and the truth. He is the living water, the bread of life. However, I agree that the tree of life could prolong life. But what kind of life would that be? Sin is the cause of all disease and misery, not God. But maybe you don't believe that. Sin has been shown to be a hideous thing, and horrible thing. Sin has blighted nature. But God's law has been vindicated. The only reason man did not die immediately in the beginning was that God intervened. "... sin caused the death of the Son of God." {GW92 466.2} So sin does cause death. And it would have been Adam and Eve right away except for the plan of redemption.

This is the result of sin.


This is something that only the plan of redemption could reverse.

Adam and Eve before their fall, they enjoyed the presence of their creator. After their fall, they were fearful. Had God changed? Was God now to be feared where before He was not? Was God now to be their executioner, so they had better be afraid? Not at all. God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I'm not following. When you say Jesus willingly and directly causes disease and destruction, is that not the first death? Aren't you saying He is responsible for both deaths?

And here, you are saying the "lingering" first death is the result of 1,2. So when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy SE Asia, shouldn't you rejoice He is "implementing the plan of salvation and denying sinners access to the fruit of the tree of life"?


As APL already mentioned, are you saying satan was correct, that if Eve ate of the tree she would not die but it would be God who killed her?

If God causes disease and destruction, and everything God does is holy and righteous, why would you be sad if He is doing what is holy and righteous? Or are you now saying He doesn't always cause disease and destruction?

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Gospel means, "GOOD NEWS". If it is not good news, then it is not the gospel.

Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.

Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).

Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. Jesus never once commanded divorce. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.

A hard sell indeed! Well said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Kland, do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.

Also, do you think evil angels are free wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded?

MM:Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.

APL:Nature is not a kicking time bomb. You name, "Mountain Man". Have you climbed any of the volcanos in the Cascades? Have you ever been confronted witht he problem of warming temperatures and icefalls? No ticking time bomb there, is there? Have you seen maps of the Karsts of the Arabian peninsula? There can be huge caverns where a 747 can easily fit into, and yet only have a thin roof covering the cavern. Hiking in such areas can result is disaster if the roof gives way. Sink holes around the country are not ticking time bombs? What happens, does God just deside to let the hole collapse destroying property and taking lives? In the story of Job, was it God that caused the wind that killed Jobs children or was it God? It must be God under your view.

MM:Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).

APL:Animals act by instinct - - OK - Where did the instinct come from? Did God program lions to kill prey? Did God create fiery serpents with their terrible venom? God permitting does mean God caused. The story of Job should make this clear. Job was giving permission to Satan to treat Job nearly as he wished. Satan could have made Job the ruler of the world! The evil done to Job was not God's will.

MM:Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. Jesus never once commanded divorce. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.

APL:Did God give rules for divorce and polygamy? YES. Does this in fact prove that God desires and approves of these things? NO. Is killing and adultery both violations of God's law? Yes. They are not entirely different realities.

MM:The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. You have not addressed these points. Please do so.

I have addressed these with scripture. God told the people how HE was going to GIVE the land to them. They did not comply. Did God abandon them? NO. There is no reason they should have ever needed to fight. You were in the military, is that right?

Exodus 23:27-33 I will send my fear before you, and will destroy all the people to whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against you. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before you, until you be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red sea even to the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me: for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.

MM, have you seen me objecting to Jesus "permitting" things to happen. What I'm objecting to is similar statements such as:
Nothing about permitting there. It's about being the direct cause and intentionally employing them.
Do you still stand behind such statements? Do you understand there is a difference between permitting and causing?

Causing and not preventing are two different things. And it's not just failure to prevent, but it has to do with people not wanting Him around. Which comes back to, you have not dealt with who killed Saul. Until you do that, you are going to have problems.

Kland, please reread all my posts. You will find that I believe Jesus accomplishes His purposes in the following ways:

1. He does it Himself.
2. He commands holy angels.
3. He commands holy men.
4. He permits evil angels.
5. He permits evil men.

APL, it appears as though you misunderstood my post.

This thread has given ample evidence for why I saw fit to keep this sort of discussion out of the "Extreme Weather" topic. It has now completely reverted to a "Does God punish" thread, and I am considering merging it with that topic. Thoughts?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This thread was opened because you wanted it opened. You called me "my thread" meaning me, which implied to me that this thread can go where it wants without your imposed restrictions. You don't see weather events or other events in the environment as needing to be discusses as either a God ordained event or Satan imposed event. That's fine. This thread should be left just as it is and let it go where it goes. Moving it to the "does God punish" thread is not logical as this particular thread deals with environmental events.

Really? Do you care to enlighten us?

We were discussing how God directly and intentionally causes disease, death, and destruction. Right during the middle of all that, you start a new thread about Extreme weather. It appears to me that you wanted to show how God causes disease, death, and destruction.

As far as this additional thread you started, you listed it as:
Are Extreme Weather Events a Sign of . . . . ?

A sign of what? Isn't that what the topic is, a sign of something? Whether it is a sign of God directly and intentionally causing disease, death, and destruction or something else?

So are you saying that what He does Himself and what He permits evil angels to do can be the same thing?

When something like a typhoon happens, how does one determine whether Jesus did it Himself or whether He permitted evil angels to do it?

Kland, in practicality it doesn't matter which means Jesus uses to His accomplish His purposes - either way He is in control. Nothing happens without His command or permission.

APL, please address each and every point I made. Thank you.

MM - I gave you a detailed response above. You said I misrepresented you. Now you want another response. HOW did I misrepresent you above. Please explain.

For example, you responded, "Nature is not a kicking time bomb." And then you proceeded to answer as if that's what I wrote or meant. Plus you overlooked the rest.

Please respond individually to each point. Thank you.

I'm sorry - you are not being clear. How was my response misrepresenting what you said? You said nature is not a ticking time bomb. Yet, there are many situations where nature is primed to explode. Are you saying it is God that is making sink holes collapse - intentionally? I used the Biblical story of the tower of Siloam. Did God intentionally, purposefully, and willingly cause the tower to fall and kill 18 people?

I didn't say "Nature is not a ticking time bomb." I said, "Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers." I further clarified by saying, "Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus."

Call me dense, but I'm not seeing the difference. I have given a response where potential energy is stored up in nature, waiting to be released. Do you agree or not? It is not helpful is you do not address what I have already posted (#158254).

Please address each point one by one. Things will clear up.

Please respond to the response I've already made.

Yes, unfortunately I was afraid you might say that it doesn't matter.

So this would mean that with the same act, one would not know if evil caused it or if Jesus caused it. But that it doesn't really matter, because Jesus intended it to happen.


So in light of that, you would say that when typhoons kill, maim, and destroy the lives of thousands of people, one should not let it bother them. Jesus intended it, Jesus caused it, or He caused evil angels to cause it, and the result is as He intentionally intended. One should not have any sympathy or give aid to such suffering ones as that would be refuting Jesus' plans and intent. Therefore, one should take a non-nonchalant attitude and say, guess they must have had it comin' to 'em. Or they are being used as an example. I'm sure not going to help them, because if I refute and make null His plans, I could be "punished" for that. Best to forget and get on with my life and hope He doesn't do anything like that to me. But, I best not "hope", for that would be questioning Him and I might be punished for that.

How could you not come to that conclusion?

Kland,

1. Do you believe Jesus is in control?
2. Do you think things happen without His permission?
3. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please?

I need to know your answer to these questions. Then I'll address your comments and questions.

Thank you.

Nothing happens without Jesus causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Nature cannot act without Him. Evil angels cannot manipulate nature without His permission. Volcanoes cannot explode without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Sink holes cannot collapse without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it.


Jesus gave evil angels permission to afflict Job within the limits He set and enforced. He worked to ensure they did not exceed His limits.


Jesus never commanded divorce or polygamy. Do you agree?

But He did on many, many, many occasions command capital punishment and war. Do you agree?


Jesus never commanded them not to wage war. He said, "I will drive them out . . . and you will drive them out." Humanity and divinity combined worked to occupy the Promised Land. "Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive."

MM:Nothing happens without Jesus causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Nature cannot act without Him. Evil angels cannot manipulate nature without His permission. Volcanoes cannot explode without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it. Sink holes cannot collapse without Him causing it, commanding it, or permitting it.

QUESTION - Is God's WILL being acted out on earth as it is in heaven? ANSWER: NO. Is God responsible for all the evil that happens? I would guess you would say yes. I do not believe that God commands or causes Storms to kill, maim, destroy. There is God's permissive will. But how does this work? IF you do not believe in free will, then God is indeed responsible for everything that happens. But if you believe in free will, then while God is the force the enables everything, He is in no way responsible for the choices that we make. He did put limits on Satan's dealing with Job. He did put limits in Satan's ability to corrupt life as Genesis 3 states. Of course in the great controversy with Christ, Satan can call foul in not allowing his alterations to play out. Christ came to give us the clearest evidence of not only God's Character, but also the results of sin. Sin was allowed to play out in the person of Jesus Christ, and it was sin that killed Christ.

MM: Jesus never commanded divorce or polygamy. Do you agree?

Have you read the book of Ezra recently? Read chapters 9 and 10.

But He did on many, many, many occasions command capital punishment and war. Do you agree?

I have stated repeatedly, that God did give instructions for war. Have I denied that? What I have denied is that this is God's perfect will. It is not . God never indended the people to personally fight. They were suppose to do their part. They were not to be idle. Even with Jericho, they were supposed to shout.

The problem is that I think that you are like Green and asygo in that you reject the clearest picture of God that we have, and that is Jesus Christ. It is true, that in many various ways God has communicated to us via the prophets. But in these last days, He has spoken to us by His son, who is the EXACT image of God, Hebrews 1:1-3. The Father has testified this fact, "This is my son, my chosen: hear ye him". Luke 9:35. Jesus testimony is greater that John's. We are to look to Christ to understand and unlock the OT. If you reject the view of God as revealed by Christ's life on this earth, you are rejecting the truth about God. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.

John 5:36-43
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And you will not come to me, that you might have life.
41 I receive not honor from men.
42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.

This is an important warning. If you reject the picture of God as revealed by Jesus, you are rejecting the truth! Jesus is THE LIGHT and the LIFE.

With that in mind, what did Jesus say to do to your enemies? If hungry, feed them. If they hit you, turn the other cheek. YOU are to love your enemy! Is this a new commandment? Yes and no. In the OT, your neighbor was believed to be your fellow Israelite. Jesus said that all men are you neighbor.

Jesus is THE ANSWER. Reject Christ, you reject God.

APL, not so fast. Before we continue please address the following points. Thank you.

Do you believe that JESUS is the fullest, clearest picture of God or not? If you NOT, then there is no point in continuing.

MM - A new series by Herb Montgomery has just been released! Listen to it. He is talking about the violence in the OT in view of Jesus of the NT. LISTEN to it. Read the Bible quotations provided. What do you see. It will only take you 4 hours of your life.

http://www.renewedheartministries.com/AudioPresentationSeries.aspx?series=42

Yes, I do. However, I believe the entire Bible pictures Jesus in the clearest, fullest, most complete sense.

"It is the voice of Christ that speaks through patriarchs and prophets, from the days of Adam even to the closing scenes of time. The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New. It is the light from the prophetic past that brings out the life of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament with clearness and beauty. The miracles of Christ are a proof of His divinity; but a stronger proof that He is the world's Redeemer is found in comparing the prophecies of the Old Testament with the history of the New. {DA 799.2}


"The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular."

PS - Are you unwilling to address each of the points one by one? If so, no problem. I would appreciate it, though, if you would.

You are quoting the CTr. I could use the Ctr to show you where is says Christ NEVER killed anyone! However, the CTr is a paraphrase. You know that, right?

That said, your DA quote is clear the "prophesies" of the OT and the history of the NT is extremely useful. The stores of the OT are useful. They still are the lessor light to the greater light. Are you willing to listen to Herb Montgomery do the review of the stories in the OT with the Jesus we see in the NT?

Are for getting a clear picture of Jesus in the OT, who has seen God in the OT? Moses did not. Moses talked with God. The ONLY person to have seen God is Jesus. You discount the scripture verses I quoted to make the statement that the OT is a clear revelation of the character of God. I agree that when viewed from a knowledge of Jesus Christ, we do see the truth about God in the OT. I quoted several verses, Hebrews 1:1-3; Luke 9:35; John 14:9; John 5:36-43. Do you have an equal number to support your view? Please, share them.

I have answered a number of these points already, and you want me to repeat them? You have not shown me clearly where I represent you wrongly which you claim I have. What is the point of repeating what I have already say, without showing me where I am wrong?

If you feel like addressing the points is repeating what you've already written, then, yes, I would appreciate one more clear, concise summary. Thank you.

PS - I'm not here to change your mind. I only want to understand what you believe.

I've already listened to the first 2 lectures by Montgomery, and I live very much were he is going. Listen to him.

http://www.renewedheartministries.com/AudioPresentationSeries.aspx?series=42

Are you referring to this note regarding CTr:


Please compare the original passages with CTr passages posted above:


"The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New."

"The Old Testament presents lessons from the lips of Christ, and these lessons have not lost their force in any particular."

PS - I am not interested in learning what you believe from Herb Montgomery. I hope you don't mind. I prefer to hear it from you. I would also appreciate you addressing the points.

OK:
Herod and the wicked authorities killed the Just One, but Christ never killed anyone, and we may attribute the spirit of persecution—because men and women want liberty of conscience—to its origin, Satan. He is a deceiver, a liar, a murderer, an accuser of the brethren. He loves to see human misery. He exults in distress, and as we view the cruel persecutions of those who would obey God according to the dictates of their own consciences, we may know that this is the mystery of iniquity. . . . {CTr 248.4}

And Jesus is a killer, persecutor, causes misery? NO.

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus commanded Moses not to execute capital punishment or to wage war?

MM - Address reply which covers a number of the points to have asked. You have not responded to the points I've made. Why?

APL, please address each and every point I made. Thank you.

1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers.
2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus.
3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it.
4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly.
5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts.
6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit).
7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities.
8. Jesus never once commanded divorce.
9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war.
10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical.
11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword.
12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell.
13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why.
14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded?

NOTE: I reposted the above post before I realized you posted your most recent post above.

I have been pleading with you to address my points before you posted the above. I feel like you are unwilling to do so. I have no problem with that. But it doesn't seem fair.

I have replied to many of your points. Please, read the reply and comment. See post 158254 and 158260.

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus commanded Moses not to allow divorce?

Jesus is in control, but He doesn't cause disease, death, and destruction.

Jesus permits some things to happen, but permitting is not the same thing as intending, planning, causing, or wanting them to happen.

Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc however they please. Consider Job. However, Jesus doesn't direct them, intend for them to wreck havoc, nor wants them to. They are not doing His will or bidding. Good is not in cahoots with evil.

APL, although I am disappointed your are unwilling to address the points in a succinct, summary manner I accept your decision.

Please answer my question first. I will be happy to answer yours afterward.

I've done a little searching here on the forums. Before I joined in, these same questions have been raised! Several have given good answers. Yet, you don't seem to have changed a bit in your view. Is there any more point in adding a repeat of that which you have rejected?

I think I see the problem. Green, asygo, MM, all view scripture as equal. You all view that the OT is a correct, clear representation of God. That Jesus's 33 years of life adds little to our understanding of the God. EGW however says differently. She writes, "The great object that brought Christ to the earth was to reveal the Father." If the Father had been clearly revealed, why did Jesus need to come to correctly reveal the Him? The Father is exactly like the man Jesus Christ revealed Him to be, Hebrews 1. Jesus warned us that if we reject the picture of God that He came to reveal, then we reject God, John 5. EGW writes, "Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!" {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 8} And she is speaking about His life on earth. She writes, "The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes." This was the work of Christ as a man on this planet. She finishes this article with this: "When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men." {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

Therefore, if we reject the picture of God as the man Christ Jesus revealed God, we are rejecting God. "Amazed at his dullness of comprehension, Christ asked with pained surprise, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?" Is it possible that you do not see the Father in the works He does through Me? Do you not believe that I came to testify of the Father? "How sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Christ had not ceased to be God when He became man. Though He had humbled Himself to humanity, the Godhead was still His own. Christ alone could represent the Father to humanity, and this representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years." {DA 663.5}

EGW: Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the express image of the invisible God, was alone able to reveal the character of the Deity to mankind. ... Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. Isaiah 61:1, A.R.V., margin; Luke 4:18; Isaiah 61:2, A.R.V. Quoted {MH 422.2}

"Love your enemies," He bids us; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44, 45; Luke 6:35; Matthew 5:45; Luke 6:36. ... Luke 1:78, 79. {MH 423.1}

"Ye also have seen me, and believe not" (John 6:36)

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Could the answers to both questions be the same?

1. In what sense is Jesus in control?
2. Why does Jesus permit "some" things to happen? Also, please cite things that happened that Jesus didn't permit.
3. In what sense does Jesus "use His enemies as instruments to punish" sinners?

Are you unwilling to answer my question? If so, no problem.

I promised to address these points after you answered my questions. You upheld your end of the deal. Thank you. Now I will uphold mine. I've added numbers to your original post to make it easier to respond to:

1. Unless Jesus tells us personally, we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it. But we can know with absolute certainty He could have prevented it, but for reasons that make sense to Jesus He allowed it.

2. Jesus works to ensure everything plays out according to His plan and purpose. Nothing happens without His involvement.

3. Understanding that Jesus is on control does not prevent us from feeling sad. Jesus laid down His own life on the cross, for which I am very thankful; however, it does not stop me from feeling sad.

4. Things play out accordingly to His plan and purpose.

5. It depends on the situation. Jesus is honored and glorified when Christians rally in support of people hit by war or natural disasters. That is part of His plan and purpose (among many other desired outcomes). In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief.

No one has clearly, concisely, succinctly addressed the points I listed. It appears you are unwilling, too.


You are grossly mistaken.


We are talking about two different dispensations. The character of the Godhead, as revealed through Jesus' teachings and interactions with men and angels in the OT and the NT, is unchanging. In the OT Jesus was working through the nation of Israel to demonstrate truth, love, mercy, and justice; and in the NT Jesus was (and still is) working through the church to demonstrate the same attributes. Accordingly, the rules of engagement are different.

I don't think I am grossly mistaken. asygo and Green have stated that we learn little of God's character from Jesus's life as a man. The NT states that Jesus is THE true revelation of God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The promises to Abraham is the same promise that we live under today! Abraham was as much a Christian as any true Christian today.

I have made comments on your list, but you still ignore them. Why?

Reading past history, you did the same thing to "Tom" going back a number of years. John 5 is very telling.

APL, I will address the list for you, the way I think you believe. I may not get everything right. Please confirm and/or correct as necessary. Thank you.

1. Nature is not a ticking time bomb waiting and eager to unleash its pent up powers. Nature is self-acting. It can and does act according to fixed laws. It does not rely on Jesus to act.

2. Nature is inert. It can do nothing in and of itself. It cannot empower itself to act independent of Jesus. False.

3. Nature does what Jesus empowers it to do or what He permits evil angels to do with it. True. But nature is not solely dependent on Jesus to act. It can act without Him. Evil angels can also empower nature to act without Jesus' involvement.

4. Evil angels cannot empower nature to act. They can manipulate it to wreak havoc but only because Jesus empowers it to act accordingly. False.

5. Animals and natural disasters are entirely different realities as it relates to this topic. Animals act by instincts. False. Nature can also act on its own without Jesus' involvement.

6. Natural disasters act according to Jesus' employment of nature or according to evil angels manipulation of nature (and they can only manipulate it in accordance with how Jesus is willing to permit). False. Nature can act without Jesus. And evil angels can empower nature to act.

7. Permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war are also two entirely different realities. False. They are nearly identical issues.

8. Jesus never once commanded divorce. False. Jesus has commanded divorce.

9. But on many, many occasions He commanded capital punishment and war. True. But He only did so because Moses mistakenly assumed killing is right.

10. The idea that He originally did not want the Jews to occupy Canaan through force of arms is unbiblical. False. He wanted to do it all by Himself without help from the Jews.

11. Not once did Jesus forbid the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. It is implied because He wanted to do it Himself.

12. The idea that holy angels are rejoicing and praising God Almighty for the evil work of evil angels is a hard sell. They're not rejoicing and praising God for the work of evil angels. They are rejoicing and praising God because He is allowing sin to run its natural course.

13. Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and disaster? If so, please explain why. Zero culpability because He will not interfere with their freedom to do and choose.

14. Do you think evil angels are free to wreak havoc however they please? Or, do you think Jesus sets limits and works to ensure they are not exceeded? No, evil angels are not free to wreak havoc at will. Yes, Jesus works to protect the innocent.

As you said to me, you misrepresent me.

How did we get on that conversation here again?

APL, I'm surprised you think I have misrepresented your view of the points listed above. I was pretty certain I got it right. It is turning out harder than I thought it would to understand your point of view. Would you mind addressing the points listed above in a direct, clear, concise manner? It would be mighty helpful.

APL, it seems like you believe:

1. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

2. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.

3. Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because Moses mistakenly believed killing is right.

Because certain individuals have an agenda to get everyone to believe as they do, and seems to be the one track they follow no matter what the topic.

The problem is that this issue has polarized -- as most issues will when things are placed in an "either/or" framework.

I believe that this world is a theater in the universe showing what sin does to human minds and emotions, to nature, and to the well being of life. God has to allow things to move from cause to effect to show what the effect of sin is. He doesn't cause sin nor does he cause the effect of sin. It's because people have given themselves up to sin that we have all the terrible things going on in this world -- from deranged people doing diabolical things, to nature going berserk because of the balances of nature being manipulated by humans.

However, when we take that reality of the great controversy which shows the effects and end results of sin, and insist that God NEVER puts a decided end to the sin, a whole different set of problems arise in which the person taking that stand must re-interpret vast amounts of scripture.

We just witnessed one of the deadliest typhoons on the Philippians --

Why did it happen?

No, I don't think God caused it.

The extreme weather is the result of people manipulating the balances of nature. Geo engineering.

http://cosmicconvergence.org/?p=3789

"Planet Earth has been besieged by many and diverse scientific experiments over the past one hundred years. The quantum leap in applied science and technology has “precipitated” a literal explosion of top secret and highly classified operations conducted in the atmosphere, throughout the planetary surface, as well as deep within the Earth’s crust. However, none comes close to the degree of round-the-clock damage inflicted on the biosphere as the DARPA-sponsored program of geo-engineering."


Rev. 11:18 ..Thy wrath is come, and the time ... that thou shouldest ... destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is the greed and ungodly intellect of mankind that causes hellish situations. Sinful mankind has set the world on a course of self destruction. It's only because God sends his angels to hold back the destructive winds of strife in order to give people a chance to accept salvation, that we still have a livable planet!
But once sin is unleashed to show it's full effect, the earth will head straight for self destruction. But before the lights go out for planet earth, Christ will intervene and deliver His people and destroy those who destroy the earth with their sinful programs.

So in one sense APL and kland are correct that sin is self destructive -- but it's not nature "deciding" anything, it is the manipulation of nature by sinful mankind. But just before conditions get so extreme that no life would be left on earth, Christ does intervene and delivers His people. That deliverance will also result in the death of the despisers of God's law and grace.

You see -- we need to accept both positions.
1. Sin reveals it's self destructive nature
2. God has in the past rooted out those who have fully given themselves up to sin because to allow them to live would mean their influence would rob many honest people of eternal life. And in the future God will put a decided end to sin. And everyone (even those who have lost out) will recognize that God is just in doing so.

Thank you for clarifying your position that it is a "problem" to "view scripture as equal" and to view the Old Testament as giving "a correct, clear representation of God."

Let it be made clear here that your position is in error. Let none mistake the truth on this point, for God indeed revealed Himself through the Old Testament. Are the testaments both equally "scripture"? Are they equal scripture?



It is clear that APL does not preach full gospel. He has neglected the Old Testament teachings, and elevated the New Testament as being superior. He has failed to read the truths about Christ that are to be found only in the Old Testament, without which the gospel is incomplete.



What scriptures did Jesus Himself teach from?



God had already made His truths "clear and plain" in the writings of the Old Testament. He came to make them clear again, because they had been made obscure by the scholars of the day.



Let none be deceived by a partial Gospel. Both of the Testaments have unique truths about God to offer, and both are equally scripture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I see you don't mind going off topic, which is OK by me.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What scripture is Timothy speaking about? The Old Testament. I think his comment certainly can apply to the New as well, but the New was not yet compiled in his day.

Doctrine, reproof, and instruction work many ways. In school and had good teachers and I had bad teachers. I learned from each. Some the good, I learn better techniques and how to do things. From the bad, I learn what not to do, do not repeat the same errors. We see a lot of errant people in the OT. Do we want to repeat these?

Christ is revealed in the Old Testament. The religion of the OT is the same as the NT. You seem to imply that I disgard the OT which is not the case. Christ's life, death and resurrection is revealed in the OT. Paul, and devout Jew, a Pharisee, may have memorized most of the OT "knew" the scriptures. Was his picture of God correct? He went about persecuting Christians based on his understanding of the OT.

Christ came to reveal the Father. The error is to now read the OT and neglect the NT. Green says I do not preach the full gospel and quoted Christ's Object Lessons to prove this. He quoted from the chapter, "Things New and Old" which I have just reread. Why did you stop at paragraph 1 of page 127? You should have read the next paragraph. As EGW says repeatedly, it is the prophesies of the OT which have high value. Israel was to reveal the character of God to the world. But did they? NO. The blessings they received brought no blessing to the world. Of Israel God declared: "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jeremiah 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. The OT is a warning to us today to not be like Israel.

EGW writing of Christ's mission on earth:Where do we learn of Satan misrepresenting the character of God? Where do we see the needless exactions and traditions placed on the law of God? Where do we see God as represented as severe, exacting, revengeful and arbitrary? Where do we see the very attributes that belong to the character of Satan placed on God? Both the OT and NT. All scripture if profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and instruction in righteousness.

Good, APL. I'm glad to hear that you do not, in fact, reject the truth that Christ was revealed in the Old Testament.

Do you yet reject that there are aspects of God revealed in the Old Testament which are not repeated (i.e revealed) in the New Testament?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And do you Green, accept what EGW says about "How different appeared their meaning!" when revealed by Christ than are understood in the Old Testament?

I appreciate him presenting Jesus as loving and merciful. I was intrigued by his idea that nature was evil before Jesus created Adam and Eve. I was glad to hear him say evil angels are not behind every natural disaster. I was not surprised he believes nature is free and able to act in and of itself without the power or guidance of Jesus.

Jesus prevents the natural cause and consequence effect of sinning (which is immediate second death). The human race should have expired when Eve and Adam sinned. The long, lingering first death sinners experience is the result of Jesus 1) implementing the plan of salvation, and 2) denying sinners access to the tree of life. It's important to bear this in mind as we seek to understand the great controversy.


So true.


It happened because Jesus chose not to prevent it. Whether He did it Himself, or commanded holy angels to do it, or permitted evil angels to do it - is not possible to know unless Jesus says so. Nature is not self-acting; therefore, it cannot do anything without Jesus' power or guidance.


Amen. Sometimes things happen because Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent it. And sometimes things happen because does it Himself, or commands holy angels to do it, or permits evil angels to do it. Nature cannot act on its own.


True, nature cannot decide or not. Evil men and evil angels can, when Jesus permits, manipulate nature for destructive purposes. They are not free to do as they please. Jesus is in control. He sets and enforces limits. He works to ensure His limits are not exceeded. The results are nothing more or less than Jesus is willing to permit. He leaves nothing to fate, evil men, or evil angels.


Amen. The Great Deluge is a perfect example of Jesus taking matters into His own hands. And the Lake of Fire will be His last "strange act". He made the great controversy possible and He will end it on His terms.

MM, Do you know for a fact that the great deluge was directly caused by God? Or could have been that God choose not to prevent it? Same question to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Summarizing Ulrike's statement: sin is destructive, but not destructive enough...

APL, yes. But you insist the inspired insights must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdrew His restraining hand and permitted nature to act without His power or guidance. Or, you believe He withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to manipulate nature.

The inspired insights are based on the many accounts in the record.

Your interpretation limits Jesus to one way - withdraw protection and permit destruction. It forces you to overlook the obvious meaning of the words employed in certain passages.

You wrote, "Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New." When "Christ withdraws His protection" destruction happens.

During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:

1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?

2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?

3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?

PS - Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). And yet you insist we must define the Jesus of the OT by the Jesus of the NT. There is a disconnect here.

APL, I'm surprised you think I have misrepresented your view of the points listed above. I was pretty certain I got it right. It is turning out harder than I thought it would to understand your point of view. Would you mind addressing the points listed above in a direct, clear, concise manner? It would be mighty helpful.

Such as, God slew Saul, or God sent fiery serpents.

I have given you several online sources which are fairly aligned with my thoughts. Invest some time on them if you are unclear. Do I need to provide the URLs again?

APL,

You are making a false contrast. You appear to be saying that the Old Testament portrays Christ in a very different light than that of the New Testament. You would be as incorrect as were the Pharisees. Mrs. White is not saying what you think she is saying.

As for the context, you need to read it again.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Who is "we" in the passage above? It is the angels whom Lot entertained. Had Lot entertained evil angels or holy angels? Holy angels, angels of God.

Then God's own angels were sent to destroy the city, and they did His bidding.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And why do you not include what happens when God forbearance is reached? Shall I quote it for you - again? And we know what God's wrath is from Romans 1. And see it described over and over in the OT.

HOW Green, do God's own angels destroy? Is there any more evidence on Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

The pen of inspiration is clear, APL. The angels who spoke to Lot said "WE will destroy this place."

APL, which kind of angels did Lot harbor in his home that night? evil angels? or holy angels?

You decide.

And yet, I will show you one more passage. You will not believe it either, for you will reinterpret it according to your preconceived idea. But for the sake of others, I present it, for it is abundantly clear which angels accomplished the destruction of Sodom.



And still one more passage that is abundantly clear regarding Who is in charge of this destruction.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sounds like you pretty much agreed with my assessment. Especially I note:

"Nothing happens without His involvement".
(Unless you are defining 'involvement' in an unusual way)

"In cases where Jesus commanded capital punishment or genocide, He did not expect the Jews to provide relief".

Kind of addresses, but doesn't the following:
Here, your "fire from the LORD" devoured them and Aaron and his sons were told not to mourn or show sadness.

Soooo, if you are saying God intentionally and directly destroyed them with fire, and "we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it", whether "it" be disease, destruction, death, etc., then the only conclusion we can come to is not to worry, don't let it bother us, die and let die.

Intense thunderstorms and tornadoes swept across the Midwest, causing fatalities, injuries, extensive damage in several central Illinois communities,

Please pass the mashed potatoes.

Dozens of tornadoes and intense thunderstorms swept across the Midwest on Sunday, leaving at least six people dead and unleashing powerful winds that flattened entire neighborhoods, flipped over cars and uprooted trees.

May I have some more peas, please?

An elderly man and his sister were killed when a tornado hit their home in the rural southern Illinois community of New Minden, said coroner Mark Styninger. A third person died in Washington, while three others perished in Massac County in the far southern part of the state,

These rolls sure are good! May I have another?

By mid-afternoon there were reports of 59 tornadoes, 128 reports of damaging winds and 36 reports of large hail. The storm paths threatened major cities including Chicago, Cinncinatti, Detroit and Louisville, Kentucky.

Just how many tornadoes hit was unclear. Although about 80 reports of tornadoes had come in as of Sunday night, Bill Bunting of the National Weather Service's Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Okla., said the actual number will likely be in the 30 to 40 range.

I think I missed the corn. Could someone please pass it in my direction?

At OSF Saint Francis Medical Center in nearby Peoria, spokeswoman Amy Paul said 37 storm victims had been treated, including eight with injuries ranging from broken bones to head injuries.

I can't wait for dessert!


Thank you MM, for easing our consciences. I feel much better now. It's not that things work out for His good, but "play out accordingly to His plan and purpose". Must be some reason He specifically chose and did this to 'em. Just hope nothing like that happens here. Ooops! I didn't mean to say hope, as that would mean I thought it was bad and don't want to seem ungrateful and not enjoying the wonderful display of mighty power or the Bossman might take offense and make an example out o' me.


Storms caused extensive damage in several central Illinois communities. Washington, a community of more than 15,000 people, appeared to have been particularly hard hit.

So be it.

Anyone for taking a walk to enjoy the sunshine?

Green - read it again. "appeared". Many statements are made that makes it "appear" that God is has destructive as you say He is. But the truth is revealed in Christ. Christ explains the the OT.

Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

HOW do the angels hurt the earth and the sea? The same as was done to Sodom and Gomorrah, Hosea 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

Please compare your assessment with my response. It should be obvious I believe very much different than your summary.

When Inspiration clearly says Jesus did something we can believe He did it. Jesus burned alive Nadab and Abihu. "And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." No doubt about it. Don't have to wonder if Jesus commanded holy angels to do it or if He permitted evil angels. "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

The reason Jesus told Aaron not to publicly mourn the loss of his boys is clearly explained in the SOP.


Your attempt at levity seems misplaced. When Jesus causes, commands, or permits disease, disaster, and death - He does so for reasons that make sense to Him. He will explain those reasons to us in heaven (if He doesn't do so beforehand). When circumstances force Jesus to cause, command, or permit disease, disaster, and death - it makes Him very, very sad. But nothing will prevent Him from the doing the right thing, even if it breaks His heart. It should break our hearts, too.

Kland, why do you think Jesus withdraws and permits disease, disaster, and death? Why doesn't He prevent it? Or, do you think He is unable to prevent it for legal or physical reasons?

After reading what you posted here and elsewhere on the topic, I am very certain the way I addressed the list of points above represents what you believe.

Ok, I can now see why you say that since you believe Jesus made Saul commit suicide. When the Bible says God slew Saul, but elsewhere we find Saul killed himself, you see them as one and the same and so need no further study to understand why there is a apparent contradiction, because you see no contradiction.

That when bad things happen in this world, it is directly because of God and that He planned, intended, and caused it to happen, that He willed it to happen.

'Ma’am, it's God's will that your son was brutally murdered.'


MM, why should we be sad for Jesus doing the right thing? And if we cannot know if He is punishing someone or not, then why should we interfere with His punishment to lessen it?

You're very sure you are accurate with APL's beliefs but you're very sure I'm not accurate with your beliefs? I find my assessment right on with what you answered them.

k: 1. So this would mean that with the same act, one would not know if evil caused it or if Jesus caused it.

MM: 1. Unless Jesus tells us personally, we cannot be certain whether He caused it, commanded it, or permitted it. But we can know with absolute certainty He could have prevented it, but for reasons that make sense to Jesus He allowed it.

I don't see a variance.

Kland, my posts speak for themselves. You are seriously wrong about what I believe. There is no excuse for your ignorance. I have been thoroughly forthcoming.

Tornado outbreak: I might nearly have missed this but for the fact that it was international news and was brought to my attention this morning. Here's a quote from Wikipedia.



We keep seeing things like "deadliest on record" or "record-breaking" in the news with these events.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If God destroys by withdrawing His protection, wouldn't that mean He withdraws His troops instead of sending them to the battle?



APL, are you able to witness these things? or are your eyes fast shut?



Perhaps APL would have been destroyed in Sodom had he been an inhabitant of that beautiful city. He could not have believed that God would do such a thing as destroy it. This was the same belief the children of Lot held who perished in its destruction.



The following quote is also germane to this question.



Notice that Mrs. White does not ever speak of these judgments being on account of the "devil's wrath." It is always "God's wrath" that comes in judgment. Yes, the devil has "wrath," but his wrath is because he knows his time is short. His wrath does not execute justice or judgment.

Now, if God's wrath were exercised merely by allowing the devil to do his dirty work, don't you suppose we would find at least once where Mrs. White spoke of the devil's wrath coming in judgment? That this is never the case tells us something very, very important.

He that hath an ear, let him hear.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And Ellen White has given us plain statements about God's wrath which is not like your wrath at all.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem's destruction, God's people will be delivered, everyone that shall be found written among the living. Isaiah 4:3. Christ has declared that He will come the second time to gather His faithful ones to Himself: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:30, 31. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

Funny why you would have missed it, you could have read my post #158476 at 10:15 AM yesterday.

Well, kland, I didn't see that post, and you haven't helped me to find it. But it's nice to know you posted something.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

If God destroys by withdrawing His protection, wouldn't that mean He withdraws His troops instead of sending them to the battle?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I don't know about SOP, but here's what Ellen White says:


Not sure what you want me to get out of that, but when you say:
and you say we can't be for certain whether He is directly causing or commanding it, then we must not sympathize with sin, or we may lead many or ourselves go down to ruin. Therefore, pass the mashed potatoes.

Or do you think you may have misspoken about Jesus being the one causing and commanding disease, disaster, and death?

Kland, do you have any idea what "SOP" stands for (it is used repeatedly throughout this forum)?

GC, is there a significant difference (in outcome and culpability) between 1) Jesus permitting evil men, evil angels, or the forces of nature to cause death and destruction within the limits He sets and works to enforce, and 2) Jesus commanding holy men and holy angels to cause death and destruction in accordance with His plan and purpose?

I see some difference between those, yes. But the difference depends on the perspective level one looks from.

For example, are you at the level of:

1) Human/sinner
2) Fallen angel/sinner
3) Unfallen beings of other worlds
4) Unfallen angels
5) God Himself (which we cannot properly consider)

This is a controversy on a grand stage before the universe. God does not always do things a certain way for our personal benefit. He is in charge of every level of creation throughout the universe, and ultimately is Himself on trial throughout this sin experiment.

When God allows evil to destroy itself, it shows what evil can do. When God directly intervenes to put a stop to evil, it shows that He is ultimately in control, that He detests evil, and that He is good enough to put boundaries to it, even though sin is on trial in this experiment.

Either one, therefore, God uses for His honor and glory. Both are important and effective in convincing the watching universe of the horrors of sin and of the justice and goodness of God and His law.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I should add that, from my perspective at least, the culpability for destruction is all sin's. The responsibility for checking the evil of sin is all God's. When God destroys, it is good, for it checks the evil of sin. When sin destroys, as it often does, it is also good, for it demonstrates to all the evil of sin.

Note that either way God brings about good, in perfect keeping with the promise we have from Him that "all things work together for good to them that love Him."

Obviously, for those who do not love God, not all things will work out to be good in the end. But for those who do love God, even the "bad" things will be used for good purposes in God's all-wise and perfect plan.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, thank you for sharing. Most assuredly Jesus is in control of the outcome of the great controversy. From the beginning, before He created anything, when it was just the Godhead and nothing else, Jesus made a conscious, informed, deliberate decision to create free moral agents knowing Lucifer, one-third of the angels, and the human race would rebel and require His redeeming blood and six thousand years of great controversy. His only other options was not to create. The great controversy, therefore, exists because Jesus chose to create. For this reason, He is culpable and assumes all responsibility. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. We are free to choose, but He is free to manage the outcome.

The Great Deluge is an example of Jesus working to ensure the great controversy plays out according to His plan and purpose. He intervened and saved the obedient and destroyed the disobedient. In so doing Jesus prevented the human race and the great controversy from ending tragically. Had He not intervened the human race would have been unredeemable and Satan would have won the great controversy. The security of holy angels and unfallen worlds would have been jeopardized. Jesus will never let that happen. Never! Things play out the way they do (disease, disaster, death, etc) because Jesus is managing the outcome of choices and the great controversy. He is in control - not sin, not sinners, not evil angels, not nature.

GC, thank you for posting about the tornadoes. You're right, such record-breaking outbreaks are happening more and more frequently. Eventually people are going to conclude Jesus is punishing the world because the Sunday Sabbath is not being carefully kept.

So why then would He be "punishing" the world? Or when you say, eventually conclude, you mean they will get it correct?

The quote says, "Satan is exercising his power".

But People will say God is punishing the world because they aren't keeping Sunday.

Though I think there is also a third option.
God is allowing sin to operate from cause to effect so all will know where sin leads.

No matter whose theory you follow --
The idea that God withdraws His protection<
or that God stages the weather.
Won't it be a punishment from God.

ALP would say God is withdrawing his protection. So why is God withdrawing his protection? Why? Because they have forsaken God?

So people will think enforcing Sunday will return the country back into God's protective favor.

Are they "converted"?
I don't think so, they seek to appease God by forcing everyone on pain of "no buying or selling" privileges, or even death to keep Sunday.

True conversion is willing, loving submission to God.

Though I would agree that SOME people are making the connection between sin/weather/God's punishment, I would not say that this is the general understanding of why this type of extream weather is happening. In other words, the idea that this weather is a punishment from God sent to turn people back to Him and His law is not generally being voiced, at least not in the Canadian media.

So I am not sure I can agree with this idea.

The passage above specifically says "In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power." Jesus, of course, set and enforces limits evil angels cannot exceed. They can do no more or less than what Jesus is willing to permit.

However, there is more to it. Other passages flesh out the picture. "Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1} Jesus works to punish sinners. He wields the forces of nature like weapons of mass destruction.

"In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

If you read the context of the above quote - it is the end of the world. How does God "cause" all this calamity? Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

This describes the same thing that happen when God "sent" the fiery serpents. Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

Which fits with Great Controversy, We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

Jesus will one day command the destroying angels, the ministers of vengeance to pour out the vials of God's wrath:

"The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." These heavenly beings, in executing the mandate of God, ask no questions, but do as they are bid. Jehovah of hosts, the Lord God Almighty, the just, the true, and the holy, has given them their work to do. With unswerving fidelity they go forth panoplied in pure white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And when their task is done, when the last vial of God's wrath is poured out, they return and lay their emptied vials at the feet of the Lord. {TM 432.1}

Symbolic language - what does it mean? How does a vial hold wrath? What is God's wrath? What is the wrath of the LAMB? What is a lamb - a baby sheep!

There is nothing symbolic about the seven last plagues, about the death and devastation holy angels will cause when Jesus commands.

Who is the acting subject in the 7 last plagues? God or Satan?

Both. Holy angels cause the plagues and evil angels add to it. God works, too. Read GC chapter 39 and 40. In particular:

1. Evil Angels. "The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent." "As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost." "The wrath of Satan increases as his time grows short, and his work of deceit and destruction will reach its culmination in the time of trouble." "As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ." "With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth."

2. Holy Angels. "God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people." "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." "The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people." "Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated."

3. God. It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course. The streams cease to flow. Dark, heavy clouds come up and clash against each other. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory, whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying: "It is done." Revelation 16:17. {GC 636.2}

That voice shakes the heavens and the earth. There is a mighty earthquake, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." Verses 17, 18. The firmament appears to open and shut. The glory from the throne of God seems flashing through. The mountains shake like a reed in the wind, and ragged rocks are scattered on every side. There is a roar as of a coming tempest. The sea is lashed into fury. There is heard the shriek of a hurricane like the voice of demons upon a mission of destruction. The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. Babylon the great has come in remembrance before God, "to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath." Great hailstones, every one "about the weight of a talent," are doing their work of destruction. Verses 19, 21. The proudest cities of the earth are laid low. The lordly palaces, upon which the world's great men have lavished their wealth in order to glorify themselves, are crumbling to ruin before their eyes. Prison walls are rent asunder, and God's people, who have been held in bondage for their faith, are set free. {GC 636.3}

Thick clouds still cover the sky; yet the sun now and then breaks through, appearing like the avenging eye of Jehovah. Fierce lightnings leap from the heavens, enveloping the earth in a sheet of flame. Above the terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. The words spoken are not comprehended by all; but they are distinctly understood by the false teachers. Those who a little before were so reckless, so boastful and defiant, so exultant in their cruelty to God's commandment-keeping people, are now overwhelmed with consternation and shuddering in fear. Their wails are heard above the sound of the elements. Demons acknowledge the deity of Christ and tremble before His power, while men are supplicating for mercy and groveling in abject terror. {GC 637.2}

"Demons acknowledge the deity of Christ and tremble before His power . . . ." Not their power - His power. They will be scared, terrified like they were during the Flood. "Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. {PP 99.3}

" In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin." {PP 99.3}. Transgression of the law caused their ruin, or God caused their ruin? Which?

"God manifests His power" during the seven last plagues. Evil men and angels tremble and fear for their lives. Why does Jesus punish them? Because they have transgressed the law! They fear the wrath of God.

Read the whole thing:

" For seven days after Noah and his family entered the ark, there appeared no sign of the coming storm. During this period their faith was tested. It was a time of triumph to the world without. The apparent delay confirmed them in the belief that Noah's message was a delusion, and that the Flood would never come. Notwithstanding the solemn scenes which they had witnessed--the beasts and birds entering the ark, and the angel of God closing the door--they still continued their sport and revelry, even making a jest of these signal manifestations of God's power. They gathered in crowds about the ark, deriding its inmates with a daring violence which they had never ventured upon before. {PP 98.3}
But upon the eighth day dark clouds overspread the heavens. There followed the muttering of thunder and the flash of lightning. Soon large drops of rain began to fall. The world had never witnessed anything like this, and the hearts of men were struck with fear. All were secretly inquiring, "Can it be that Noah was in the right, and that the world is doomed to destruction?" Darker and darker grew the heavens, and faster came the falling rain. The beasts were roaming about in the wildest terror, and their discordant cries seemed to moan out their own destiny and the fate of man. Then "the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground. {PP 99.1}
The people first beheld the destruction of the works of their own hands. Their splendid buildings, and the beautiful gardens and groves where they had placed their idols, were destroyed by lightning from heaven, and the ruins were scattered far and wide. The altars on which human sacrifices had been offered were torn down, and the worshipers were made to tremble at the power of the living God, and to know that it was their corruption and idolatry which had called down their destruction. {PP 99.2}
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God,
charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is--the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners. {PP 99.3}

"By the word of God . . . the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:5-7. Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1}

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. The deaths were due to the withdrawal of the protecting hand of God. The part of the country through which they were traveling was infested with snakes, scorpions, etc. (Deuteronomy 8:15); hence, every day provided miracles of divine protection. But now the Lord withdrew His protection and allowed the snakes to attack the people. Great Controversy: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning. 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Will the wicked change after the close of probation? No. IF God is the acting subject in the 7 last plagues, then God is torturing the wick of that time for what purpose? To inflict pain a suffering? No, God is not the acting subject. It is God's withdrawing His hand of protection that gives Satan free reign and as in with Job, it is Satan that is the cause of the 7 last plagues. Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer.

APL, we cannot force every incident to fit the "withdraw and permit principle of punishment". The Bible and the SOP are too plain, too explicit. To insist evil angels cause the seven last plagues and then fear and tremble at the results elicits visions of mad scientists and exploding beakers and chemical burns. It just doesn't fit. Evil angels are not ignorant, bumbling fools. It is naive to think otherwise.

PS - Do you think Jesus is less culpable when He permits evil angels to inflict suffering and death?

To what purpose does Jesus permit evil angels to inflict suffering and death?

EGW: It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God

Please explain how the passage you posted above answers the two questions posted above. Thank you.

In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. {DA 58.1}

Please explain how the passages you posted above answer the two questions posted above. Thank you.

Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Wonder why it doesn't it say, from the wrath of the Lion of the tribe of Judah? I mean, He is called the Lion, and that would make more sense for someone in fear and calling on the rocks to fall on them. But instead they say, hide us from the wrath of a baby sheep!

Good question. Also wonder why they feared and fled from Jesus in the Temple? The children stayed and fell asleep in His arms.

Why did Jesus command Moses to kill? Strange act, indeed. Wish APL or Kland would explain. Moses was uncertain what to do with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. When he inquired of God, Jesus commanded him to stone them to death. Wonder why Jesus didn't use the opportunity to explain why killing them would be evil and wrong? Instead, Jesus commanded Moses to kill them.

LOL

You would understand it better if you were to consider the scenario around the time of the event. It's tied to an obscure prophecy that Jesus made in Mat. 26:60-64. He had been taken before Caiaphas, the High Priest and the people had begun to accuse him without success.


It would be this same Jesus of Nazareth, THE CHRIST, who they would be seeing coming in the clouds of heaven, the one who stood before them long ago bruised, broken and hanging on a cross, blood falling from his forehead. It would be this same Jesus of Nazareth, THE CHRIST, who they would be driven to finally see as their Messiah, though their confession would be one of abject fear and terror rather than acceptance. It would be this same Jesus of Nazareth, THE CHRIST, who was preached to them as the Savior since the days of Pentecost, from who they would run, the same Lamb of God who had taken away the sin of the world.

Behold what a great ROAR you have acquired, O Lamb!

///

A lamb-like beast is going to form an image to the beast and legislate and enforce the mark of the beast even to the point of martyring millions who remain faithful to Jesus. Apparently biblical lambs have a fierce and fearsome side.

When you give a man alcohol to drink, he takes it in, drifts into a state of silly delirium, stumbles about and falls heavily, not knowing what has happened to him. God uses this imagery of drunken stupor leading to death in Jeremiah 13:12-14.


Notice how the wine is poured into the bottles and the bottles dashed mightily against each other! That wine is like a doctrine, a false prophecy, a giving over to worthless ideology, that causes many to do stupid things in the end, turn one against another and bring the entire family, church, society, country, even the whole world to utter ruin. This is why the angels of the seven last plagues POUR OUT THE BOWLS (VIALS OR BOTTLES) OF THE WRATH OF GOD ON THE EARTH. Because the inhabitants of the earth will have rejected knowledge, God will drive them over to the point where they will believe seven lies to their ruin. For each plague they will refuse to acknowledge that God was punishing them, but that all things were of natural cause and could be ameliorated, rectified by the wisdom of men until they exalt themselves to heaven in their crazy pride, brutally subjugating anyone who seeks to correct them.

Then the carpet will be pulled from under their feet and they will not know what just hit them. Notice how Jesus pointedly interjects towards the end of the sixth plague saying, "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." This is what happened to the Millerites. They refused to believe the Son of God (Mat. 24:336), therefore they were left naked and the whole world saw their shame. To run after a false prophet will only lead to GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT. He who does not learn of history, is fated to repeat it.

///

APL and Kland, please explain 1) why Jesus commanded Moses to kill. When Moses was uncertain what to do with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer he inquired of God. In response, Jesus, in no uncertain words, commanded him to stone them to death. 2) Why didn't Jesus use these opportunities to properly educate Moses? 3) Why didn't Jesus explain why killing them would be evil and wrong? Instead, Jesus commanded Moses to kill them. 4) Also, why didn't Moses protest? 5) Why didn't he plead their case (like he did when Jesus threatened to kill off all the Jews)?

PS - I would appreciate you addressing all 5 questions.

Because the Lamb (with a capital L) is representative of the Son of Man AND the Son of God: High Priest AND King, Advocate AND Judge, Father of Love AND Discipline.

///

THAT particular man was a type of Pharaoh Ramses or of King Saul or of Ananias and Sapphira. Each one of them was chosen for the role they were going to play long before their end. Their character was tested and deemed worthless yet they were preserved to be an example to the children of Israel and to the Church, as the case may be.

Even today, the wheat and tares are allowed in the field with the tares serving as vessels of wrath kept for a putting away and destruction that the children of God may see the end result of sin. God bears long with the tares until their moment in the sun and utter darkness.

///

APL and Kland, please explain 1) why Jesus commanded Moses to kill. When Moses was uncertain what to do with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer he inquired of God. In response, Jesus, in no uncertain words, commanded him to stone them to death. 2) Why didn't Jesus use these opportunities to properly educate Moses? 3) Why didn't Jesus explain why killing them would be evil and wrong? Instead, Jesus commanded Moses to kill them. 4) Also, why didn't Moses protest? 5) Why didn't he plead their case (like he did when Jesus threatened to kill off all the Jews)?

PS - I would appreciate you addressing all 5 questions.

MM - - have you not read what has been posted? Why did God give the people rules for divorce? Why did not God give them explanations for this evil and wrong? Why did not God properly educate the people? Why did not Moses protest? Certainly divorce is much easier problem to deal with than killing or Sabbath breaking, no? And no, this is not apples and oranges.

APL,

I let the other thread go a little longer before deciding there was sufficient evidence of your abilities to follow the topic. I am now transferring much of that thread to this one, which has lain fallow for over a week as you have side-tracked the thread I began about the weather with such things as discussions of the "Sabbath-breaker", etc.

From now on, please post on topic in that thread, if you post there at all. Thank you. I'll give it a rest for awhile to ensure that it doesn't collect more off-topic posts in the interim.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Thanks green!

You're welcome. Apparently, divorce and Sabbath-breaking are related to extreme weather.

To some, at least, "this is not apples and oranges."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes - just responding to a direct question. Of course, you have you not answered the question of how is the weather a "sign of the times". But perhaps you have, and having fractured threads do make it hard to follow sometimes...

I think I did answer it already, and even if I didn't, any good Adventist knows the answer. There should be no need to ask.

Have you read Matthew 24 lately?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - you are right! Adventists should know! What is interesting is that when Adventists bring weather into context, other Adventists say that it is off topic. Our whole existence is in the context of the great controversy. Therefore, God's law is front and center. Event the Sabbath!

Yes, I have read your posts. I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions. I don't trust myself to figure out your answers to my questions based on my answers to your questions.

PS - Please understand that my questions have to do with Moses - not the Jews in general.

You can't separate the two. Moses was the leader, the mediator. Again, look at divorce! Did God command the people directly or did He give His command to Moses? To Moses. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 vs Matthew 19:3-12. Compare the two statements on divorce. With Moses, giving a bill of divorce for whatever reason, the woman was free to marry again. This it not so with Jesus's command. The whole time the people were in rebellion. I think Moses understood God quite well. The people went into rebellion right at Sinai.

Exodus 20:18-21 AKJV
18 And all the people saw the thunder, and the lightning, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said to Moses, Speak you with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said to the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that you sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

As Blanco say it, Exodus 20:20 TCW Moses said, “Don’t be afraid. God has spoken to you to make you afraid of sin, not of Him. These commandments are like ten promises to you.”

But the people were afraid of God. They did not trust God. They shortly there after had the Golden Calf fiasco. Moses is not the one God is directing His commands, it was to the people.

APL, I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions one-by-one.

What do you not understand in what I said?

I have reread what you have posted in response to my many questions and was unable to find a direct answer to my questions. You answer my questions with questions of your own (assuming, apparently, my answers to your questions reflect your answers to my questions). Unfortunately, though, your strategy isn't working for me. I apologize. Which is also why I keep pleading with you to provide plain, concise answers to my questions. I truly do want to learn what you believe. I am not here to debate or find fault or to change your mind. I know what I believe, but I don't know what you believe, which is why I am asking. Your unwillingness or inability to answer my questions directly, plainly, concisely is disappointing.

You often cite divorce as proof Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants because of the unbelief of the Jews (not because Moses was guilty of unbelief or ignorant of Jesus' ideal plan). You believe this insight sufficiently answers my questions. You are laboring to help me understand there is no real difference between permitting divorce and commanding capital punishment and war. Anything that does not conform to Jesus' ideal plan, whether it be divorce or death, is equally abhorrent to God.

In one of your responses to my current list of questions you wrote, "I think Moses understood God quite well." I agree. Ellen White wrote, "Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." Accordingly, Moses waged war and defeated his enemies with the edge of the sword. It was clear to him "divine strength is to be combined with human effort." Moses fully believed Jesus wanted him to wag war. Nowhere in inspiration does it say Moses thought or believed otherwise.

"Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." Being active does not necessarily mean swinging the sword. At no time was Israel supposed to fight. They fought because of unbelief. When the children of Israel were to cross the Jordan, they had to march. They marched in faith too I might add. And not until the feet of the priests touched the water did the waters part. Israel had to be do their part, they could not be inactive.

The divine record is plain as to how God would drive out the Canaanites. And the people were not to fight. Did the people fight when they left Egypt? Nope. Did Jacob fight either Laban or Esau? Nope. God would have done the same for the people if they would have trusted in God.

APL, is it safe to say you are not going to answer my questions?

APL's view does not match that of the Bible.



We see in the above that God directed them to go and to fight, and blessed them, staying with them, as they conquered the Canaanites with the edge of the sword.

"And the LORD was with Judah" says it all, for if they were acting apart from God's will, He could not have been with them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I agree Jesus commanded the Jews to drive out the occupants of the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. He blessed them with success - often in miraculous ways. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus never intended to employ the Jews to drive out the Canaanites.

Green - I've quoted the following already several times. Why do you ignore it? As you see, what you have just said of me is wrong. You are making a false witness. I don't expect an apology.

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}

APL, you are withholding information. You have been unwilling or unable to answer questions plainly, directly. I have no idea what you believe in relation to the questions you have refused to answer. Instead of answering my questions you pose questions of your own. Assuming my answers to your questions answers my questions assumes the absurd. As it stands, GC's assessment of your view seems reasonable. Perhaps if you were more forthcoming an accurate assessment of your view might be possible.

I have been quite forthright on my views of violence. You clearly are not willing to understand them can certainly not accept them, even when shown SOP, APL (adventist pioneer library) articles, and the Bible. Your preconceived idea that God desires, wants, and performs violence is the correct view. I used to think that way, but the preponderance of evidence is that God is not like that. Yes, the wicked will die. But not by execution.

You have asked questions which do not have an simple answer. But if we can't get agreement on the simple, how can we move forward?

APL, you have not been forthcoming or forthright. You have repeatedly refused to answer my questions. The purpose of my questions is to ascertain more clearly your view. How can you expect me or anyone else to embrace your view if you refuse to discuss the points that matter to me or them?

I agree with you Jesus uses the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish sinners. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3} His enemies include evil men and evil angels. Again, I completely agree with this insight.

However, you also believe the withdraw and permit principle of punishment applies to every incident described in the Bible and the SOP. This view insists nature is self-acting. It also insists the clearest descriptions of punishment cannot be taken at face value, that they must be interpreted in light of the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. It also insists there is no distinction between destruction and punishment. You also assign a role to "sin" that implies "sin" is a self-acting judge and executioner.

Please answer my lists of questions. I need your answers to help better understand your view. Please answer them plainly and concisely. Thank you.

I have read back in these forums. I'm not sure you really want to understand my view. A fellow named "Tom" presented a number of thoughts as I have. Yet, I see not change on your part. Read a forum on a different site, I found the following. Perhaps you should read this fellows book. You refuse to see the material I have pointed out to you. I have spoken of God's permissive will. This guy I think say it well, almost as he is talking directly to you.

It was not God's will that He should have led His people to the conquest of Canaan by their use of the sword. His deliverance would have taken the "purer" form, if I may use that term, of giving over, instead of permissive paradigm. In reality, however, the permissive paradigm is also "giving over" in that God winks at ignorance. What I mean is that in their ignorance of God's ways, they thought Him a violent Deliverer. They were in gross darkness in every way, hence the giving of the law. Another discussion. So God, in giving over to their paradigm, saw them pick up weaponry from the mail-clad bodies washed up on the shore. They got their arms from the dead Egyptians. They came out of Egypt unarmed and there was no other way for them to have obtained weapons. This reveals that they intended to fight their enemies their way. God worked with them in their own modality, for as long as they still had not entirely cast Him off, He was able to stay in the picture. The hands of Deity were tied, so to speak. It is God working with their own choice. Permissive paradigm is not the place to remain. God intends to bring us up out of it. They would not. That is why they rejected Christ. They wanted a military deliverer who would thrust through the Roman oppressor with the sword of slaughter. This is why Jesus told Peter to put up his sword, that the way of the sword ends in violence. They were desolated. God destroyed them by giving them over to their choice, "His blood be on us and our children, we have no king but Caesar." 

Permissive paradigm is akin to parents giving instruction to wayward children who are coming of age. A parent may have every intent that a son or daughter remain sexually chaste until marriage. However, there are some that choose to have a partner or partners before marriage, casting off the counsel of the parents. A parent can kick the child out and entirely give them over to whatever results will come or they can sit that child down and give counsel as to how to conduct themselves within their poor choice. They can advise with regard to the use of prophylactics to avoid pregnancy and disease. They will tell them that it saddens them to see them go in such a direction, but it is better that they avoid complicating things by pregnancy or disease. Also, keeping them in the picture rather than turning away from them entirely will enable them to continue to have influence and hopefully get through to a time when they will have matured and come back to their senses. They will likely have emotional scars, but at least will not have to care for children on the scene who have one young parent and are missing the other, and will not have ongoing health repercussions from contracting STD's. Now, an onlooker might say that that parent was condoning premarital sexual activity by recommending condoms, but the reality is, that parent would never have done any such thing. All that they were trying to do was to mitigate the negative consequences of bad choices while praying for the repentance of their child. 

So it is with God. Jesus came to set the record straight. He reminded them of their bent to violence and desire for eye for eye justice while saying that God's perfect will was to love one's enemies. Yes, God "gave" those eye for eye instructions, in the sense that He also gave them a king. In anger, or in giving over to their own poor choice. (See Hosea 13:11.) The civil code was but an advancement, or a step up from the Babylonian Code of Hamurrabi. The systems of law in the heathen nations were all eye-for-eye justice systems. The Hebrew version was not nearly as harsh. (We have written on this, Ch. 18 in our book, As He Is, my wife doing most of the research on that topic.) Moving on, we find Jesus saying that divorce was not God's perfect will, but "Moses" allowed it. Again, God allowed it through the civil laws under Moses. Why did He allow it? Jesus says that it was because of the hard heart of man. In other words, because man insisted on it. So God regulated it. The fact of divorce was not ever established by or allowed by God. Same with polygamy. Or slavery. And we are saying, "also violence." Those were all things of ignorance. God winked. Permissive paradigm. But now calls men to repentance. 

There was never a call for men to exercise violence. That all came from the hardness of men's hearts. There is no call now for men to ever exercise violence. I could work this all through with you using the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, but why? I will suggest that in support of your claim to the principle that the Almighty gave us violence as a gift with which to vanquish our enemies that you do a search for yourself on the gentleness of Jesus and the use of violence or anything harsh in the way and manner of Christians. Bring it back for me if you think you have something. My belief is that you will come up with a fat ZE-RO for anything pro-violence. My friend, you will likely still disagree with me, even if you did such an exercise. There is no more that I can say to help you. Put away your guns. He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Scripture quoted: Hosea 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

I'm sorry you weren't here when he was currently posting. I miss him much. But then I was glad you came around! But I believe Green just might be right in this instance. Of what are you hoping to accomplish? Your whole basis is dependent upon that there is a distinction between good and evil, that is, the acts themselves. But when someone says that there are no good or evil acts, that what makes them good is who is doing them, that in fact God uses satan to do what we would call "evil things", but then says that evil, good, and satan are all "good" because everything that happens is exactly premeditated, planned, coordinated and intended by God, of what hope is there?

You cannot show the contrast between good and evil for there is no evil based upon the whole definition held being that everything God does is "good" and God does everything. There can be no determination of whether satan or God does something because there is no real point in determining it because satan is working for God, that what satan does is what God intends. God and satan are on the same team, working together. There is no evil, no violence, no nothing that is not planned and intended by God and therefore termed "good". Of which one end result is, total apathy. This is the direct and raw truth of the view without using any whitewashing. But it is not a "bad" view, but viewed as "good".

So what hope is there? You have no common ground basis. Even direct statements such as, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression", are turned to mean, that God does not stand ALL THE TIMES toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. Rather than figure out how that fits in with other statements, it is meant to mean nothing. How can there be any hope?

Through those times with Tom here, I had had hope, that God could be seen as a loving God who does not do evil, and that evil not being called "good" because God was doing that evil. But that was dependent upon there is a distinction between evil and good, that it can be determined, and that when satan personates God, one can tell by what his fruits are as to whether it is God or not. But when God and satan are said to do the same things, that satan is even employed to do what God wants and intends and plans, there is no hope in not being deceived at the personation. I can see that now. I don't know why Tom left. Suppose he was able to understand it quicker than I?

Of what are you hoping to accomplish? How can there be any hope? Do you feel safe parleying on such ground?

I do not.

APL, I appreciate you posting what other people have written on the topic. Unfortunately, though, it doesn't deal with the fact Jesus promised to help the Jews conqueror Canaan by 1) using hornets and 2) using the Jews.

Jesus said, 1) "I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee" and 2) "I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee." (Ex 23:28 and 31)

Again, nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus did not want the Jews to help conqueror the Promised Land with the edge of the sword. The fact you haven't quoted inspiration to prove otherwise is telling.

Not quoted inspiration? As Jesus said, Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus to him, Put up again your sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Context? Here's another text out of context:

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus was dealing with different circumstances in the NT. It was a totally different dispensation. He did not command His chosen people in the NT to wage war with the edge of the sword. In the OT, however, Jesus most certainly did command His chosen people to wage war with the edge of the sword.

God is not schizophrenic. An evil side and a good side.

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Who is our foe? Our own household, NOT GOD. In this verse, Jesus is telling us that the truth will not result in harmony everywhere. Matthew 10:11-13 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

Jesus is the Prince of Peace. John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. When we make peace with God, we are often counted as an enemy of the world. 1 John 3:13 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. Christ came to make sinners at peace with God, but will set them at variance with those that refuse to God's offer of pease. Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. It is not peace with the world at any price.

Two different dispensations. Two different rules of engagements. They are not interchangeable. You cannot force the details of one to fit the other. Jesus never promised His disciples He would use hornets to drive out the enemies of His church. While here in the flesh Jesus never withdrew His protection and permitted evil men or evil angels to wreak havoc. In the OT, however, Jesus used both hornets and Hebrews to kill the unholy occupants of the Promised Land. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say otherwise, that is, it doesn't say Jesus never wanted to use the Hebrews in the OT to kill Canaanites.

Would the arguments change any? What if extreme weather events and other disasters are not a sign of God causing them, not a sign of global warming, not a sign of evil angels, and not a sign of nature being released? How would the arguments fall flat if, just suppose, if they are a sign of planned, intentional, coordinated, orchestrated efforts, not due to God wanting to kill people, but man wanting to kill people through geoengineering or H.A.A.R.P?

Your presentation of Matthew 10:34 in no way supports your claim that God is violent.

You would have to define your terms better. The Gospel dispensation has been from Eden lost. God's law in not any different under the Old Covenant than the New. The old was a shadow of the reality. The whole ceremonial system was a God stepping down to meet the people where they were in the unbelief.

EGW: God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

The people were never supposed to fight. Just as the Lord did to Pharoah and to all Egypt, so did he promise to do to all the enemies that should set themselves against the progress of the Israelites to the promised land. But the children of Israel did not strike a single blow to effect their deliverance from Egypt and the overthrow of all its armies. When Moses, forty years before, had attempted to deliver Israel by physical force, he most signally failed, and was obliged to flee in disgrace. It was only when he knew the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation, that he was able to lead the people forth without any fear of the wrath of the king. This is conclusive proof that God did not design that they should fight for the possession of the land; and if they did not fight, of course they could not lose any of their number in battle. Read further as to the manner in which God proposed to give them the land: "I will send My fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land." Exodus 23:27-30.

When Jacob, years before, sojourned in the same land, with his family, the "terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob." Genesis 35:5. "When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong; yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; saying, Touch not Mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." Psalms 105:12-15. That same power was to bring them into the land, and speedily give them an eternal inheritance in it, for afterward, the Lord, bewailing their unfaithness, said: "Oh that My people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in My ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto Him; but their time should have endured for ever." Psalms 81: 13-15.

Both the Bible and SOP agree that Israel was never supposed to fight. I supposed if you believe that rules have changed, then polygamy and divorce were approved in the other "dispensation".

I mean, what happens when you send a billion watts straight up into the sky? What happens to that energy in the ionosphere which is raised up (or out) comes crashing back down? Could it give off the energy to whatever is in its way whether it be clouds, storm systems, or tectonic plates?

APL, I'm surprised you are downplaying the importance between the two different dispensations. I am also surprised you are misquoting the following passages:


Jesus commanded them to conquer the Promised Land. They refused to obey. Jesus reprimanded them.

The people were required to move forward. Your quote does not say fight, does it? Nope. They were required to move. Why were the people required to spend 40 years in the wilderness? Unbelief. When they did go over the Jordan, they were required to move forward. They crossed the Jordan at peak flow. There was no evidence that God was going to open the Jordan. Not until the feet of the priests touched the river! God had provided so much evidence to the people when they first left Egypt. Yet the people when they left still had unbelief. Did they need to fight leaving Egypt? Nope. Why do so many have unbelief today?

"To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness." These words apply to any view that insists Jesus has never punished evil-doers.

"Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them."

Those words are too clear to be misunderstood. The God I believe in would never command that His people be first possessed of evil spirits in order to carry out His will. So it cannot be, here, that God is commanding evil spirits to act. Nay, but when they followed His commands, they were blessed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Amen, GC. Too plain, indeed, to be misconstrued or forced to mean something other than it clearly means:


Jesus commanded His chosen people to "smite" and "utterly destroy" His enemies. Those who obeyed He blessed. And those who disobeyed He cursed and killed.

No question! BUT - was this plan A? Nope. Does this prove that this is how God handles all such situations? Nope. This was God's permissive will, not His ideal will. Just as God gave instructions on how to handle adultery via polygamy and divorce. God's permissive will, not His ideal will.

Mike,

There's no point trying to win an argument with someone who shifts positions every time he's cornered.

First, APL says the people were never supposed to fight.


Then, he says the people were supposed to fight.


Which is it, APL?

More importantly, I have a very serious question for you:

If God asked you to do something that you believed was not His "Plan A," but rather His "Plan B," would you do it? If so, would you believe it was a sin for you to do it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - you really have not been engaged in this tread. Go back and read the tread. I have not changed my thoughts at all. It was never God's plan to have Israel fight. Did Israel fight? YES. Did God give them instructions about fighting? YES. Does this prove that Israel was supposed to fight? NO. Why did Israel fight? UNBELIEF and the HARDNESS of their HEARTS.

I have used the example of divorce and polygamy. Obviously you hvae not read it. Did God every want people to have plural marriages or to have divorce? NO. Did the people divorce and plural marriages? YES. Did God give instructions about plural marriage and divorce? YES. Does this prove that God wanted plural marriage and divorce? NO. Yes did God give such rules? UNBELIEF and the HARDNESS of their HEARTS. Open your eyes to the truth about God!

If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses. {PP 364.2}

Hm - how many plans are in this one paragraph? Hm...

Tell me Green, was Israel supposed to fight their way in to Canaan with the sword? What that's God plan all along? Yes or no?

You truly do not have the ability to answer clear questions--is that what you mean to tell me? I think Mike has the same understanding.

Let's shorten the question:

"If God asked you to do something that you believed was not His "Plan A," but rather His "Plan B," would you do it?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tell me Green, was Israel supposed to fight their way in to Canaan with the sword? What that's God plan all along? Yes or no?

Why do you refuse to answer a simple question?

Only those who have something to hide need to dodge so much as you have been doing.

Think about it.

HINT: A "yes" or a "no" would answer the question I asked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Why do YOU refuse to answer a simple question?

Was Israel supposed to fight their way in to Canaan with the sword? Was that's God plan all along? Yes or no?

HINT: Yes or No.

BTW - How does God talk to us? By His word. That is what I will do by the power of God, because in me, I can do nothing.

APL,

I'll be happy to answer after you answer my question. This is your favorite avoidance tactic--ask a question in return. I've taken the bait before, only to never get an answer from you. I asked first, so you first.

"If God asked you to do something that you believed was not His "Plan A," but rather His "Plan B," would you do it?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I answered the question.

Jesus did not permit the Hebrews to "utterly destroy" His enemies - He commanded them to do it. Jesus does not command people to sin. Plan A involved Jesus using hornets and Hebrews to kill the men, women, and children in the Promised Land. Ideal? Of course not. Ideally A&E would have refused to disobey. Didn't happen. Ideally the Canaanites would have embraced Jesus as their Saviour. Didn't happen.

APL, please answer GC's question. Would you, like Moses, obey Jesus' command to execute capital punishment and kill enemy combatants? Or, would you, like King Saul, refuse to comply with Jesus' command? Would you obey or disobey?

MM - I answered the question. Shall I quote my answer? How does God talk to us? By His word. That is what I will do by the power of God, because in me, I can do nothing.

What did the children of Israel say that they would do? Exodus 19:8 "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do." This was Israel saying that THEY would do the work. It was a law of works. It could not save them, and it was a testimony against them. You are asking me to give an answer to repeat the problem the children of Israel had. Of myself, I can do nothing. The question is a misleading question, in that none of us can keep any part of the law (God's commands) by ourselves. Only by faith are we saved (justified/sanctified/...)

APL, the question is very simple. You didn't answer it. You went off on a tangent.


If Jesus commanded you to kill criminals and combatants would you, like Moses, obey? Or, would you, like King Saul, disobey?

I have given you my answer. Move on.

As for "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do", what did Israel almost immediately do?

Are you suggesting you would say, "All that the Lord hath said I will do" and immediately thereafter worship a golden calf?

This is what the children of Israel did. They refused to follow God. God continued to work with them, even when they did fight. But they were never supposed to fight.

"All that the Lord hath spoken we will do" Exodus 19:8. Obey My voice. Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart" Jeremiah 11:7-8.

The people did not fulfill their promise, and they therefore did not receive the blessings God wished to bestow on them. By following their own impulses, they pursued a course that disqualified them for being recognized as God's peculiar treasure.

"But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them" Jeremiah 7:23-25. [Q]

Then I'll also answer yours in like manner.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I'm still trying to discern your answer to GC's question. For the life of me I cannot figure out how you answered his question. If Jesus commanded you to kill criminals and combatants would you obey? Perhaps you believe Jesus would never command you to do such a thing? However, for the sake of discussion, put yourself in Moses' shoes. Would you obey like Moses did? Or, would you try to plead with Jesus to rescind His command (like Moses did when Jesus threatened to wipe out the Jews and start over with Moses)?

[/quote]

Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise. Works both ways!

APL,

I'm just following my example, Jesus. You are following your example, the chief priests and elders.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Thanks OK - I already know your answer. Blessings? Really? You mean that? Seems a bit trite.

APL, I think you would refuse to obey if Jesus commanded you to kill criminals or combatants.

[/quote] [/quote]

What would have happened if the people had obeyed God in the beginning? We don't know the answer. God's plan was to drive the people out slowly before them, "not in one year". Israel need not lose one man! But the people were full of unbelief.

When a question was brought to Christ, His answer was, "Have ye not read?" "What saith the Scriptures?" Christ could have answered every perplexing question brought to Him, but He did not do this. He directed His questioners to the great store-house of knowledge. He knew that He could not always be with them in human form, and He desired to teach them to make the Word their dependence. "Search the Scriptures," He said. He referred them to His own inspired Word, that when tempted by the enemy they might meet him as He had done, saying "It is written." Thus the enemy could be repulsed; for he has no power over the one who relies on the testimony of God's Word. {ST, March 28, 1906 par. 1}

Of the Word of God, the psalmist writes, "The entrance of Thy words 'giveth light; it giveth understanding to the simple." It is a light shining in a dark place. As we search its pages, light enters the heart, illuminating the mind. By this light we see what we ought to be. {ST, March 28, 1906 par. 2}

They did obey Jesus. He commanded them to attack and kill the Amalekites. Jesus did not "permit" the Hebrews to "utterly destroy" His enemies - He commanded them to do it. Jesus does not command people to violate His law.


Jesus did not tell them, Don't fight. Instead, He said, "The Lord will have war. Go out and fight with the edge of the sword."

We have the word of God. That is what I want to obey, with God's power. Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Which is how I answered above.

APL, Moses wrote a huge part of the Bible. He obeyed when Jesus commanded him to kill criminals and combatants. Would you, if you stood in Moses' shoes, disobey?

They did obey Jesus. He commanded them to attack and kill the Amalekites. Jesus did not "permit" the Hebrews to "utterly destroy" His enemies - He commanded them to do it. Jesus does not command people to violate His law.


Jesus did not tell them, Don't fight. Instead, He said, "The Lord will have war. Go out and fight with the edge of the sword."

MM - - follow the flow!!! It was not God's plan that they fight. But they did fight, against God will. but God gave them instructions. Did they follow those instructions to figh? NO! Once they set out on their own plan, they still did not follow God's instructions. Did they clear out the land? NO! If they were so faithful, how come they were defeated? Is God impotent? It wa they unbelief.

APL,

Following your logic, if and only if that logic is valid, but certainly it is your logic, it was a sin for Saul to accept the kingship of Israel, because it was never God's intent to have Israel governed by kings.

You never have answered my question, but your logic leads me to conclude the following:

1) APL would never have offered his son Isaac upon the altar, because God could not be asking him to "sin" in "committing murder."

2) APL would never have assumed the position of king over Israel, because God could not be anointing him to such a "sinful" post of duty.

3) APL would never have stoned the Sabbath breaker, because God could not be asking him to "commit murder."

4) APL would never have slain Goliath, because God could not be "tempting" him to "commit murder."

5) APL would never have taken his brother's barren wife to raise up seed to his deceased brother, because God could not be asking him to "commit adultery."

6) APL would never have gone to anoint David king over Israel, because God could not be asking him to go against His original plan for theocracy, and because God could not be asking him to "lie" to the king's men should they ask concerning his business.

7) APL would never have killed Agag, the king of the Amalekites, much less have put all of their nation--men, women, and children--to the sword, because God could not really be asking him to commit genocide and murder.

8) APL would never have killed a lamb, kid, or goat, nor would he ever have confessed his sins over the head of such, because none of that was part of God's original plan.

9) APL should never eat vegetables, because they were not originally part of man's diet.

10) APL would never even think about punishing his child, because "God does not punish."

APL, if you are to reach God's Kingdom at the last, you have a few more things to unlearn. Your misconceptions and errors prevent you from seeing the wisdom of God's ways.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green Consider one of your points above, Quote Green: 2) APL would never have assumed the position of king over Israel, because God could not be anointing him to such a "sinful" post of duty.

You obviously think it was a good thing for Israel to have a king (little k). If Israel had trusted God, they NEVER would have had a king. Asking for a king was a rejection of God.

1 Samuel 8:6-8 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, with which they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also to you.

In asking for a king, Israel was wanted to be like the other "nations". What were the other nations? HEATHEN. And the History of Israel bares this out. They did become like the heathen, and WORSE. Is this the standard that you Green wish to aspire? I certainly hope not!



I could pick holes in most of your conjecture above, but will spare you. Suffice it to say, that Israel rarely trusted God. If they had, they would have had no need to fight, God would have been their defender. Read 2 Chronicles 20. The REAL victories of Israel come from FAITH in God, NOT from the SWORD. If they had trusted God they would never have had a king. If they had trusted God, they would have gone into the promise land shortly after leaving Egypt.

I have plenty to learn and unlearn. But YOU Green that needs a change of heart. To unlearn your misconceptions and errors and see God as He is in Christ.

APL,

You are gifted at selective quotations. Why did you leave off at verse 8? Perhaps there is some truth you are avoiding in the next verse. Also, the command God gives is reiterated at the end of that chapter.



You wouldn't answer my other question, and I don't expect you will answer this one either--because to answer is to admit your position has been incorrect. However, that others will see that you do not admit of the truth, I will ask this plainly, and then if the deflections begin on your part, all will know where you stand and how untenable your position is that you are unable to speak plainly.

Question: Did the LORD speak against His will?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You are not a good listener green. Did God give them a command to have a king? YES. Was this for the good of Israel, under the circumstances, YES! Was this God's perfect will? NO. It was God's permissive will, to meet the people where they were.

By using YOUR logic, God's will is that we have divorce. God's will is we have polygamy. But that is NOT God's will. It is God's permissive will, to meet the people where they were. It was not God's ideal. Why did God give the rules for divorce? Because of the hardness of the people's heart.

Why did God give Israel a king? Because of the people's hardness of their heart and their lack of faith. Asking for a king was a rejection of God.

You didn't answer the question. But I expected that.

If you do want to answer it, a "yes" or a "no" would be nice, not an ad hominem followed by a loosely-strung series of truths that do not provide a clear answer.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, I agree with GC. You avoid answering questions and addressing objections.

From July 8 to 12, 2012, it was reported 97% of Greenland's ice melted. Sounded a bit far out, but further looking found out what was meant was that most of the surface of Greenland's ice had some degree of melting from the coast to the tallest mountain peak. "Unprecedented". It refroze shortly.

For some reason, there was a "heat dome" which caused the melting. One would think a "normal" warm spell would just melt the low lands and the peaks would remain cold. It's almost like you bring an ice cube out of the freezer to a hot summer's day. Could this have happened if the "warm spell" was manually, artificially, and instantly created rather than a typical gradual warming? Could it be as if someone microwaved the sky overhead? Could it be HAARP? Could it have been a cute HAARP prank to pull to give the global warmers something to whine about?

Jesus and Ellen White both talk about different types of calamities to fall on the earth right before Jesus comes. Natural disasters, including weather, are included in these calamities.

We see these because Satan will be gaining more influence as the four winds are loosened and because of judgments of God.

Since coincidence and luck don't exist, these calamities must be of a supernatural cause.

So you are saying there's only three possible options: coincidence, luck, or supernatural. Did you disagree with what I was saying or not understand what I was saying?

What about being intentionally manipulated by man?