God is wrapping it up!

Your feedback is important. I only ask that you watch the entire video before you tear it apart.

David Gates and Mark Finley are featured in the intro. It is a slide show Bible Study. Long and complex, but Keep it Simple Saints was a constant goal.

Shouldn't you be feeding the poor and lending a listening ear to the downtrodden instead?

SDA are like the Jews of the first century, burying their heads in the written word so deep, they do not see that Christ is passing right by them. They are like jittery guards, zealously guarding the temple dedicated to the holiness of their "SATURDAY"; and should anyone even thread upon its terrace, they arise like a horde of mad men, pitching fiery darts and screaming, "UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!"

///

You're saying the judgment of the living began in February or March of 2013 right? And, tell me if I understood you, you're saying after the end of the judgment of the living the 144,000 are sealed? And you're saying Gates and Finley can't both be right and implying both are wrong? But you think Michael will soon stand up. When do you think that will be and what will happen; the sealing? BTY, I agree with you that Michael will soon stand up. The sealing is going on now imo. If judgment begins at the house of God, the sealing does too. Thanks for sharing.

Get busy feeding the poor and neglect the spiritual side of life?
To do the one to the neglect of the other?

Did Noah's contemporaries rebuke him for spending so much time in building an ark when there were poor people in need his help?

No. The time allotted to judge the dead and the living ended 14 February 2013.



Yes. They cannot be sealed if they have not been judged worthy.



No. They both have some truth. But neither have arrived at all the truth that there is yet to find. If they continue to look, the promise is "Seek and ye shall find." If they rest on the truth that they have the warning to Laodicea is that Jesus will not accept them. That warning goes for us as well.




After Michael Pence stands up for his people, Michael (Jesus will stand for His people). The counterfeit and the true.



Soon after Trump's impeachment is my gut feeling. The Holy Spirit cannot be poured out upon God's people before the are ready.
"The last events will be rapid ones."

I'm still studying. My videos are at www.loudcry101.com and you tube. As I learn I try to make a slide show that shows what I know at the time.




Thanks for your feedback. Remember to share my website info. There are a lot of people who are still sleeping and need to awake before the Bridegroom arrives.

Bare with me; I'd like to understand what you're saying. You're saying the judgment of the living ended Feb. 14, 2013 and the sealing of the 144,000 began then, right. Have a look at chapter 28 of the GC, Facing Life's Record. As I understand it, once our cases are judged our probation is over. The judgment of the living and the sealing are concurrent. What's your thinking? How can the sealing take place afterward?

Getting ready for the "bride groom" is NOT based on any time speculation.

To say people have already been judged and sealed some years back, is to say probation is over.
It is not.
To present that as "the message" is a message of utter discouragement, not a message to prepare and come in full trust and commitment to Christ. What it is saying is -- its too late, if you haven't turned to God, forget about it, the sealing and judgment is over. That is sooo wrong -- The Lord has not yet closed His heavenly work, and to say He has is playing god and slamming a pretend door shut while God holds still holds the door of salvation open, pleading for all to come.
I fully believe there will be a lot of people who will yet respond -- yes, even among Adventists who have been held back for various reasons, will throw aside all restraints and give themselves fully to Christ.


All this date setting is -- according to EGW -- WRONG.

Yes, Christ's coming is at the door, but we do NOT know the day or year when the last outpouring of the Holy Spirit occurs, when the judgment ceases, when probation closes or when Christ comes.

Basically -- I find all this speculation on times and dates DEFEATS the real message. It's all about arousing EXCITMENT and EMOTION, not about committing ourselves to serve the Lord.

Just commenting on that statement, probation IS indeed over for some people. They are DEAD. And forever sealed, one way or the other.

Perhaps consider an alternative view that there does not exist a "probation," as neither this word nor concept is to be found in Scripture.

Of course, a persons probationary time here on earth ends at death -- but that was not the subject under discussion.

The subject was addressing the idea that some people seem to think they have a message that the judgment of the living ended on a specific date some years back.




When I think about it -- in my lifetime there must have been maybe 100 failed predictions by people thinking they know the times and dates of the work of God.

The first one I remember was 1964 (you know 120 years since 1844, "as in the days of Noah")

Every time Halley’s Comet comes around, or the planets align, or the constellations form some interesting configuration with planets and the moon, or there’s an increase in solar flares, or the financial situation takes a dip, or someone claims to have found the ark of the covenant, or the pope makes some new pronouncement, or Russia flexes its muscles, or Israel moves into some new trouble or advancement, or the United States launches a war in the middle east somewhere, or Islamic forces utter threats, or there's a new ecumenical promotion, a new papal visit, or a series of eclipses take place, or some ancient calendar ends, == etc. etc. ==
someone, somewhere gets out their calculators and wrest some timeline out of its Biblical context and proclaims a new time for things to wrap up.
I don't think a year has gone by without some kind of "end of the world" date attached to it.

Now --
it's obvious that we are standing on the very edge of this world's history --
A lot of the above situations are noteworthy in sensing that we are standing on the edge of the toe nails of Daniel's metal man, and the rock is about to strike.
It is wrapping up!
BUT we know NOT the dates nor the year.

We need to stop getting worked up over useless dates. Every time we share some end-times prediction that involves a projected date, or an approximate time, we open the door to mockery and disbelief.

Just like the parable of the boy who kept crying "wolf"
soon nobody listened, and when the wolf actually came no one was ready for him.

Probationary time -- is a privilege given to the human race at great cost -- it was purchased for us by Christ on the cross.

Without the cross their would be no probationary time -- the end of all would be death, we would have no choice for we have all sinned and the wages of sin is death.

But we have been offered LIFE!!!!
Will we accept it
or will we reject it?

The word "probation" may not be in scripture, but you will find the urgent call to forsake sin and accept Christ and the life He offers, all through scripture.

Now, today, that offer is still extended to all living human beings.

Re 22:11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

If that is not talking about probation, could you tell us what that is talking about?

Re 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Re 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Either you must be older than I or I must have been sheltered!

Though I've seen plenty, but not 100 of them. I recall someone passing around tapes about how the author said "god" showed her California was going drop off into the ocean. Some many decades ago.

But probation has ended for many of them...

From Monday's lesson:

Revelation’s end-time prophecies are not revealed to satisfy our obsessive curiosity about the future. The book reveals only those aspects of the future important for us to know. They are disclosed to impress upon us the seriousness of what will happen so that we will realize our dependence on God and, in that dependence, obey Him.

For centuries, speculation - and even more sensationalism - has accompanied so much of the teaching regarding end-time events. Fortunes have been made by those who, predicting the immediate end, have scared people into giving money to their ministry because, well, the end was near. Each time, though, the end didn’t come, and people were left disillusioned and discouraged. As with all the good things God has given us, prophecy can be misused, and misinterpreted, as well.

Hmmm....

No, I can't.

I can, however, tell you how I understand it.

In the context of the entire phrase, the angel is telling John:

1. Not to seal up the prophecy (unlike Daniel) because the time is short. (This is an entirely different discussion)

2. Those who "do wrong," "are vile," "do right," "are holy" will and can continue to do what they are doing. It does not indicate that they MUST continue, only that they WILL. There is no suggestion of any probation or close of same, nor that they no longer have a choice to change. This is more analogous to "everyone carries on doing what they are doing," somewhat like Matthew 24: 37-39, where everyone was doing what they were doing until the flood came.

I don't know where you were in 1964, but I was just entering my teens, and for my friends and I it was kind of scary -- we thought we would never have a chance to grow up and marry and have children, as we were told there would be none of that in heaven. Silly of us.
But the signs that were generating the idea 1964 could be the end, were
-- the USA had it's first Catholic president, the cold war was intense, Russia and the USA were having a nuclear arms race making enough weapons to annihilate the whole world many times over, everyone was sure the Russians would send Nuclear bombs on us and the world would be a terrible place -- a time of trouble as never was. Then the Cuban Missile Crisis had the world on the edge of another World War as the United States and USSR came close to launching nuclear attacks.

So yes, that was my first introduction of people date setting for the end of the world. Though no one set an actual date -- yet there were implications of something coming in the fall of 1964 (120 years after 1844 date)

It would be interesting to make a list of all the dates presented for "the world to end" -- it may be surprising how many there have been.

And yes, for a great many people that were alive in 1964, probation has ended -- for nearly the whole generation of people who were the active, middle aged adults, teachers, preachers, parents, employers, etc back then, only a few are left. And even some of the younger ones are no longer alive.

It only goes to show -- that we shouldn't be waiting for some extra ordinary finality of earth's history to arouse us to prepare spiritually, just to slump down into complacency once the speculated date passes, but rather it is to be a daily preparation, a daily commitment to the Lord, not based on stimulated excitement, but a steady seeking after God's will every day, and a continuous walk with Christ.

The first part of Revelation seems to reference the sanctuary. Was there a "probation" time during the Jewish year of the sanctuary service?

The problem with the people who panicked when there was no wolf is that they didn't test everything with scripture, especially their own lives. There is going to be a midnight cry and it will not be a "wolf" cry, it will swell to a "loud cry".

Some here use Gate's willingness to examine what others are saying like Ernie Knowles, as a strike against him. It should be viewed as a virtue to listen to what others are saying and test it with scripture. Gates did that but didn't see the error at first. But it wasn't long before the Lord corrected him. God is more please with those who are willing to test what others are saying than with those who are content with what they already know.

For example, the Lord has been speaking for the last 160 plus years to the church that we don't understand the books of Daniel and Revelation as we should, that they do indeed apply preeminently to the end. How many will be able to be sanctified in the truth contained in them if they remain in willful ignorance or denial until the seven trumpets sound when there's no denying it. Not that I've been sanctified in it myself but forgetting those things that are behind I press on toward the mark.

I don't think there ever was such a thing as "probation," unless the term is being used in a specialized way. In which case one would need to clarify their use of the term.

In the "Are we at the close of probation?" thread, starting at about page 4 and going to about 9, I discuss some of my views of probation. Also in the "What do we take to heaven" thread but I'm not sure where.

While I agree that at death there is no more opportunity to make any choices, I think the opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open until His actual appearing in the heavens. It doesn't "close" at the time of trouble, or the Sunday law, or "after the mark of the beast is implemented," or any other such arbitrary event.

The term "probation" indicates a time period where one proves commitment, or ability, or some other such skill or characteristic. One is "on probation" at a new job, or in a club or society they have just joined. A criminal has a "probation officer" and they are "on probation" to help them get back into society.
Salvation, however, is not contingent on our ability or skill, but on God's grace. We do not need to "prove" anything to anyone because God knows all things, and he is the one making the judgement. (This also rules out the Investigative Judgment doctrine which, IMO, is also unsupported by Scripture) Our entire obligation is to Accept Jesus, and it is then God's responsibility to do the rest. (And this is not a discussion of the Christian life and growth.)

That may very well be true.
Yet, as long as people are looking primarily for identification of time and events they will not gain any deeper understanding of the sanctifying truth in these books.

Exactly.
Yes, it's all in accepting Jesus.
Probation is a time period in which it is revealed whether or not we are committed to Jesus and allowing His Holy Spirit to lead us and work in us.

He is the vine, we are the branches, if we are not attached we will not bear fruit.
Thus yes, the fruit reveals if we are attached or not.

And yes, God knows all things, but this earth's exhibition of sin and its results isn't allowed to exist to prove anything to God, but to prove to us that sin is evil, ruinous, destructive while God's ways are good, uplifting, wholesome. Likewise, the investigative judgment doesn't prove anything to God, but is systematically put in place to prove to God's creation, that His judgment is just.

You're right, the majority of those applying the prophecies to the future are missing the point, but in general I haven't seen a willingness here or among conservative Adventists with the exception of David Gates and a few others to come to a correct understanding of what these books actually teach and "keep the things that are written therein". Bare with me Dedication while I give you one more evidence:

Above you said that in your teens there was a false excitement about last day events in 1964 that caused you and your friends unfounded fear that the world would end and you wouldn't be able to marry and have your own families. Contrast your selfish fears with the reaction of the early Adventist youth who were filled with love and hope at the thought of Christ's near return and for the rest of their lives looked back on those days with a grateful reverence as being their best and brightest. Ask yourself if anything has changed since your youth that would make you any more ready for the real midnight cry so that now you would gladly welcome it.

Above I posted a short list of the elements we should be looking for to identify the true midnight cry. One of those is "the time is at hand, repent and believe the gospel." There will be an urgency to the message but no specific date. How can there be any urgency to any message if something is not imminent? Christ ends His Revelation message to us with this direct statement: "Behold I come quickly". And if this is the message of Gates how well is it going to be received if our youth are being couched as you were that this is just another false excitement and that they should marry and have families (and as a fringe benefit you can perhaps enjoy your grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren.) If Christ could have come by the mid to late 1850's do you not think he could have come in 1964?

God is faithful. He has in my opinion given every passing generation of Adventists the opportunity to be co-laborers with him and welcome his return. In the four generations since 1844 there has not been a single generation that has responded in faith and in love. I'm convicted that the fifth generation will say "Yes!", but it will be a remnant.

‘But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".
Matthew 24:37

In Genesis 7, God commands Noah to take his family into the ark.
Genesis 7:16 "And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in."

The rain does not come for seven days after God closes the door.

For seven days before the flood, salvation was impossible for those not already sealed safely inside of the ark. It seems rather "arbitrary"; however, God always has His reasons, even if we do not understand them.


Consider the parable of the Ten virgins in Matthew 25. Five of the virgins had no oil in their lamps.

Matthew 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

The foolish virgins could not be saved, even though the bridegroom had not yet come, because they had not prepared themselves beforehand. It seems that the opportunity for salvation does not continue up until the day Jesus appears. As in Noah’s day, we see that God closes the door, in advance.

Charity,

I understand your perplexity. But God cannot seal His 144,000 people with the Holy Spirit any more than Christ can come with His rewards until they have been judged. And Judgment begins at the House of God.

dedication,
Two things that you overlook are Sister White's meaning of the use of TIME. When you revisit her writings and focus on the meaning of Time, Prophetic time, and definite time, you will see that in context she is ALWAYS putting it in the context of Christ's Advent. Brother David Gates recently came to the same conclusion (you could watch his video)


In the first quote you appear to make an assumption "the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power. Again and again have I been warned in regard to time setting. There will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ." {1SM 188.1}

The book of Revelation is not mystical, its times are definite and the Father gave them to Jesus to give to His servant so that we might know What the Father wants us to know.

Your second quotation would be better understood if the meaning of time as EGW used it were understood correctly: "The Lord showed me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung on time [THE DEFINITE TIME OF CHRIST'S ADVENT]; for time [OF CHRIT'S SECOND COMING] will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time [OFR CHRIST'S ADVENT], that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time [OF CHRIST'S ADVENT] to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness. {1SM 188.3}

The third quotation warning about being deceived about the autumn of 1851 is out of context now that we are in 2019.

I hope that you will be diligent in presenting some evidence in its proper context so that we can see truth.

Call it what you like. The concept that there is a day of Atonement on the 10 day of the 7th Jewish month established a principle that God would have us to recognize as He intended.

There is nothing new under the sun...

"I knew their only object was to mangle the visions, spiritualize away their literal meaning, and throw a satanic influence upon me, and call it the power of God. Sr. M. addressed me, urging me to relate the visions. I respected her, but knew she was deceived in regard to that company. I refused to relate my vision to them, only that part which related to them. We told them we had no fellowship for their spirit, and in the name of God would resist it. They flattered; but it had no effect. Then they tried to terrify me, commanding me. They said it was my duty to tell them the visions. I faithfully warned those whom I believed to be honest, and begged them to renounce their errors, and leave the company that was leading them astray. I left them, free from their influence and spirit. A portion of that company in a few weeks were left to run into the basest fanaticism." {2SG 73.1}

Whether or not "there is a day of Atonement on the 10 day of the 7th Jewish month" has no bearing on a probation or close of probation. If you see a connection you will have to spell it out for me.

And if there is "a principle that God would have us to recognize as He intended." you will have to spell that one out too.

It does not take a genius to see that as it was in Noah's day, we are having floods where there never where floods before.

As it was in Lot's day, sexual perversion has entered the Church that claims to go back to the day of Christ and even America has accepted it as the law of the land: Remember Lot.

The loudcry is sounding. And some of the virgins are waking.

There is a trump sounding. Michael is ready to stand for his people, And Michael will stand for His people.

It is all coming together. The wise will understand and the foolish will only understand when it is too late.

If you have not checked out my website, please do so.
You tube just told me that my play list that has been dormant for 9 years has just come to life with 25 subscriptions in the last week.

Here is a video from David Gates that is worthy of your consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmQUOOQk9r4

HC, since you acknowledge the inspiration of Ellen White you have a duty to treat her writings as inspired which means allowing them to speak with their full intended meaning. We know from the inspired sources that 1) the judgment of the living is not over 2) that the latter rain has not fallen in its full measure and 3) that the three angels' messages will be repeated in power.

Regarding the last point recall that the first angel's message is that the hour of judgment has come. But you are saying it has passed. I hope you'll consider the seriousness of taking away from the message. "If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev 22:19. In denying that we are now in the "hour of His judgment", you have left the fear of God behind you in favor of your own message. We all need to reacquire that healthy fear and realign ourselves with the first angel who commands us to fear God. We want to be united in these messages under the leadership of Christ.

Charity. The Judgment Hour did not end while Ellen White was alive. So please give evidence that the judgment hour of the living did not end after she died in 1915. On 14 February 2013 when the hour allotted to the ten kings to bond with the papacy ended, the time allotted for the Judgment of the living ended.



The 3 angels messages are being repeated in power: Babylon is fallen...the RC fell due to its priests' fornication scandal...come out of her My people. The Hour of His Judgment has ended..."reward unto her double" (dispense her reward...seal God's people and anoint them with the Holy Spirit). The Fourth Angel is SOUNDING NOW!



You made a great point so let's review the 3 angels messages.
In Rev 14 they are
1 The hour of His Judgment is come
2 Babylon has fallen
3 Don't take the Mark of the Beast

When they are repeated the sequencing is different

2 Babylon has fallen
1 The hour of His Judgment is come
3 Don't take the Mark of the Beast




Notice that after the second angel's message of the fall of Babylon (in conjunction with the priests' fornication scandal) sounds the first angel's message sounds. It does not come before it here in Rev 18 as it did in Rev 14.

The judgment hour message in Revelation 18 is "For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." 18:5-6 This is a message of the hour of dispensing the reward after the Judgment Hour is done.




The message that God is dispensing the reward cannot be proclaimed until those who are to receive their reward have been judged.

This was not a message that could be proclaimed when the Judgment Hour began, but it can be proclaimed now that the time allotted has ended.



That ONE HOUR was the Judgment Hour of the Living when the church/state papacy was alive from the Day of Atonement 14 October 1929 until Pope Benedict resigned 14 February 2013 when the one pope at a time papacy became a two living pope papacy.


You have a good mind. Your comments are encouraging me to study more to be sure I get it right. And I am very interested on your perception. That is why God tells us to reason together, study together, and pray together and for each other.

What do you think was the purpose of the sanctuary during the Jew's time, what do you think was the ultimate purpose of that picture?

Could it also be a time period whether you accept or reject something with nothing to do with skill or ability but with choice?

BINGO!

The purpose of the sanctuary is given in Scripture: "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them." Exodus 25:8.
Does the sanctuary point forward to Christ's sacrifice? Yes. But that is our perspective years after the events.
Did the Jews in the time of the sanctuary understand it that way? IMO, No. Some few, perhaps, like certain Bible writers. But the majority, NO.


No. That is free choice.

By the very nature of the term it indicates a proving time. The idea of a "probation" is the result of a works-based theology, where one must prove to God that you are "good enough" to take to heaven. I reject all forms of works-based religion, including the idea of perfectionism, and a probation, a close of probation, and a time period where one must live a perfect life without a mediator. All these ideas are the result of the very unfortunate (and incorrect) Investigative Judgement doctrine.

Like you I post my new ideas here from time to time in order to have them critiqued. That's a good idea. I've given you my perspective and it hasn't seemed to influence your thinking. For example in the post above you defended your position that the judgment of the living is past. Since we've been admonished not to debate or become involved in "doubtful disputations" but in contrast to share and teach, it's not good for either of us to belabor our views. I've shared mine but if you have any questions let me know. I'll be grateful for your prayers. You're in mine.

Ex 25:9 "According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.

Pattern. Could be a paper blueprint. Or an idea. Or it could be referring to something that he saw.

Heb 8:1 ¶ Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer.
4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;
5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Would you be saying that the main point of things was kept hidden from the Jews, that Moses in no way indicated to them that what they were making was a pattern of heavenly things?


Are you saying free choice does not involve works? That free choice only influences your mind and that your mind does not influence your works?



What do you say the following is trying to get across to us? And would you say the "proving time" is over for those it's referring to?

Re 20:11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems pretty clear to me that Moses copied a physical item he saw in heaven, and there is no hint regarding the larger meaning. The Hebrew made items according to the pattern Moses gave them, then used these items to worship in the prescribed way. This was their religion; it centered on the sanctuary and the rites performed there. Nowhere in the OT does it equate the lamb offered as sacrifice to a coming savior. It was just the lamb for their sins. Nor does it speak at all about a probation or close of probation.

Of course they knew it was a pattern of heavenly things; Moses wrote that in a book. What he DID NOT write was that these things pointed to a larger picture or coming savior.

Whether free choice involves works does not bear on whether or not there is a probation.

There is no "proving time." Only a "choosing time," which is over only at the judgement. There is no time on earth during which "probation is closed." If there are people living, they have a choice. It remains open for all time until the judgement at the second coming.

The more I examine a supposed close of probation the more I realise that it is simply the old "Shut Door" doctrine in a new form, and projected to the end of time. The Shut Door doctrine was a spin-off of the unfortunate Investigative Judgement doctrine. So one sees that many false and incorrect understandings stem from that one false doctrine.

The Scripture says let us reason together. I have shown that the hour allotted to the papacy is 83 years 4 months (beginning with the dead papacy and repeating with the living papacy). You appear to not believe it, but you have not given any evidence to show an error in the prophetic time. Without your due diligence in presenting evidence, why would you think that I would give up something that is true? Discussing facts to reach a consensus is not debating.

Renaming truth and likening it to an error and then tossing it out with the error is a straw man argument that will deceive some of the people some of the time, but it will not fool all of the people
all of the time.

By the way, who said probation closed?

I agree -- the "close of probation" is the "shut door" idea.
However, the "shut door" did not "spin off" the investigative judgment.
The Millerites believed Christ would come in 1844, and probation would be over. People would be either saved or lost.
The investigative judgment wasn't even understood at that point.

The "shut door" came from their understanding of the ten virgins who fell asleep waiting for the bride groom. The five that ran out of oil, ran to buy some, but when they got back, the door was shut, they could not go in.
It was taught by a lot of Millerites that never accepted the "Sabbath/Sanctuary" teachings of those who later became Seventh-day Adventists. A great variety of views were held by various groups of Millerite Adventists, who adhered to the "Shut Door," and it created great confusion after 1844. The term "shut door", to the Millerites meant, "no more mercy for sinners?"

For the small group that would later be called Seventh-day Adventists, it was actually the sanctuary doctrine that showed a door of mercy for sinners was still open.
They turned to Revelation 3, where it talks about a door being shut and another door being opened.

And...that added nothing to help me better understand the issues involved.

That's true. The idea of probation actually predates SDA Adventism.

So why was the physical thing in heaven, for what purpose?




Hmmm. I might be kind of understanding what you're saying. You're saying there is a choice time, regardless of whether it affects works, but that time is not prior to the END.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Who are the dead, when did they die, and why?

I apologize for the lack of helpfulness of my post in reply to yours.
The response was how I read it at the time.
Would you like me to revisit it?

There are many people who hear that the time allotted for the Judgment of the dead and living have ended and say that it means that "probation has closed." That is their perception, not reality.

We are in the sealing time of the 144,000, the final shaking, and only when Christ states "it is done, let the filthy be filthy still, and the righteous be righteous still" will probation close.

God's people cannot receive the out pouring of the Holy Spirit to seal them if they have not been judged any more than Christ can return and bring His reward with Him if the world has not been judged before He comes.

That is an interesting question, since in Revelation 21:22 John says he did NOT see a temple in heaven. "I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." On the other hand Revelation 11:19 says there IS a temple: "19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

IMO, what Moses saw as a pattern was a physical representation of spiritual concepts. Exodus 25: says he actually saw the pattern on the mountain, and not in heaven: "40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount."

So, because the newly formed Hebrew nation needed a religion different from the Egyptians and surrounding nations, God called Moses up onto the mountain and outlined ("showed him") the religion, the temple, the rites and rituals, etc. (ie: "the Law") for Moses to pass on to the people.

This religious system DID (seem to) have symbolic elements of a coming savior*, but apparently this aspect was not revealed to Moses, or, if it was, he was instructed not to share that with the people.

* The 5 books of Moses describe the sanctuary, the services, rites and rituals, the laws, the penalties, prescribed sacrifices, etc. but there is not a single reference to any forward-looking symbolism of Christ in the sanctuary system.

I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase, as I believe the time open for choosing extends right up to the actual physical see-Him-in-the-sky second coming of Christ.

I believe that based on the following:
1. By definition, God knows everything. (He is omniscient) This includes people's hearts. (1 Samuel 16:7 "...for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." and others)
2. It is God who judges. (Isaiah 33:22: "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us."
3. There may be those who's first knowledge of God will be his second coming. Although Scripture says "this gospel will be preached in all the world," this may or may not indicate that ALL INDIVIDUALS will hear and have a chance to decide. With a current population of about 7 Billion, and a growth rate of 1.07% yearly, the World Population Clock estimates that 82 million people are being added to Earth's population every year. Is the spread of the gospel exceeding, or even keeping up to, that rate? Not to mention those who have already died without knowing about God. *

* This opens a huge "can-of-worms" which is not the thrust of this thread or discussion.

I should have said final choice.

but that time [of final choice] is not prior to the END.

I have been studying.

1) #IranUSwar
2) President trump gets the boot
3) Michael stands for his people
4) Michael stands for His people

Is it you position that God does not Judge people worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit before the Latter Rain is poured out?


Or that Christ cannot bring His reward because He did not Judge the people who are to receive it?

Not sure why you think I was saying that.

Talking about Nadi believing you have choice clear up to the end.
Holy Spirit being poured out or not isn't affected by that, is it?

Correct,

The option to choose remains open right up to the physical second coming.

As you know, I do not believe in a probation, nor close of same.

However, be that as it may, I am curious to know on what evidence you link "it is done" from John 19:30 with "let the filthy be filthy still, and the righteous be righteous still" from Revelation 22:11?

I had asked,

Is the answer not found in the previous chapter, at least some of them are included as the dead being judged?

Re 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."

"free and slave, both small and great." That pretty much included every one, right?
But the righteous, too?

Re 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Only those gathered together to make war against Him.

Re 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

I think they are dead, don't you?

When did they make their decision? Before that time, right?

Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So would you agree, that they have made that choice prior to the physical second coming?

I do not see the exact timing of the choice to bear on the question as I understand it. My assertion is that the ability to chose is never taken away, nor comes to an end, while humans are on Earth.

As previously stated, if at any time there are people on Earth, they continue to have a choice.

It is true that an individual may have already chosen, either pro or con, and God is the judge of that. But there is no time when the ability to chose ("probation" if you want to use that term) is arbitrarily taken away ("closed" if you want to use that term.) There is always a choice.

The second point related to this question is that at no time must God's people live on Earth without a Mediator. The notion that one must perfect their character because they must live in the sight of a Holy/Perfect God without a Mediator is unbiblical and damaging. In the Great Commission Jesus says he will be with us always, even to the end of the age. (or world, if you prefer the KJV) Matthew 28:20

I agree with Nadi's comment.

I agree.... but man having choices is not above God's Sovereignty overruling their choices when necessary for executing His Plan of establishing the Kingdom of God on this earth.

Kland brought Rev 22: to prove text that their choices to reject Jesus are sealed forever. Read Context kland...you have problem to draw context and consider other scriptures that contradicts your interpretation.

Rev 22 happen's right after Jesus 2nd coming where He and His Priesthood will rule(shepherd) the nations. It is a symbolic picture of the New Jerusalem where they and their kingdom will be the highest mountain where all the nations will flow to it to gain learn of God's ways in the law. (Isaiah 2) At Jesus 2nd coming, which is only the first harvest as prophecied in the law in the firstfruits and in the Feasts harvest times; is the first resurrection reserved for the leaders only (See Rev 20:5,6) where others who didn't make that resurrection some of them will continue to be just and others will not until the time of the Great White Throne Judgment where we find that every knee will bow and give glory to God.



Good point! I agree. Their will still be a mediator during the Millenium and after that age. Eze 44-46 talks about the uncorrupted priesthood will mediate with Christ for the people. Let us note that they will be the mediator of the NEW Covenant and not the old. The New Covenant says that God promise to make us His people (Deut 29) and write His laws inside our hearts (Jer 33 and NT). The New covenant does not depend on our choices. It is the Old covenant that depends on the people choices (Ex 20:19) to follow all of God's law despite it is written outside their hearts. As long as the law is not written in our heart, choosing the right path is unnatural and often not known as we do not understand the law.

Basically, the Old Covenant where the people made a silly and impossible vow to keep while the law is outside our hearts is founded on their ability to keep their vow. Whereas the New Covenant is not dependable on the people choices, but rather on God's ability to keep His vow.

The question was, does ceasing of choice happen before the 2nd coming? The question had to do with timing of choice, right?

Is that statement disprovable?

As I view it, the "ceasing of choice" happens AT the second coming, and not before. I cannot get any more specific than that; IOW I cannot say at what point in the second coming, if any, choice ends. Just "AT" the SC.

It is no more nor less provable or disprovable than any other idea related to the topic.

********************

The ideas of "probation" and "the close of probation," along with the "investigative judgement" fly directly in the face of concepts of God. In terms of a probation and a close of probation, I have expressed my views already. But this idea goes against the desire of God that all men should be saved, and that all may come to repentance, and that God is unwilling that any should perish, and other similar ideas expressed in Scripture. So my question is "Why would God arbitrarily cut off one's choosing salvation, without any CLEAR, UNMISTAKABLE warning about WHEN this would happen??" This idea directly challenges the idea of the justice of God. Therefore I reject it. And to base the entire idea on the single text of Rev. 22:11 (I say single because no other texts have so far been offered) makes it a very weak argument.

Likewise the IJ. The whole idea challenges the omniscience AND justice of God.
* What is the IJ for? Not for God, He knows everything. He is also not just the judge, but the RIGHTEOUS Judge. Not only that, but He knows the end from the beginning. So it is clearly not for God.

* Is it for those on other planets? It is yet to be established from Scripture that this is the case, or even that THERE ARE other intelligent beings watching from other planets.

* If the "other intelligent beings" are watching, then they already know, so it is clearly not for them.

* Is it for humans? Well, if it started in 1844...WE'RE NOT THERE! So it is clearly not for us, even though the doctrine states they WE are being investigated. Secondly, God has provided (according to SDA theology) the 1000 years after his coming for humans to examine the books a realize that God is just and has made a just decision. So the IJ is clearly not for humans.

In the end, I must hold that probation and the IJ is not just unbiblical, but actually challenge the attributes of the Deity, which is something I am unwilling to do.

One would have to devise a MUCH STRONGER argument, based on clear Scriptural evidence, if they expect or are hoping for a shift in my position.

The clear Scripture is that of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The Testimony of an eyewitness is that of Ellen White, she was taken in vision to Heaven and related in her writings of that which she saw.


In conclusion:

Here I disagree, Elle. If God overrules man's choice then man in fact does NOT have free choice.

This I agree with. In the NC, we are dependant on God's ability, not ours.

Please demonstrate how.

I do not hold to Ellen White, so any appeal to her or her writings is invalid.

God's Sovereignty is above man's choices. This doesn't mean man has no choice. It only means man's choices can be overruled or influenced by exterior events that man changes his choices. That happens all the time even daily.

No warning? Hmmm....

All through the Bible is the warning to follow God and keep His commandments. When people defiantly choose not to follow God, whether at any present or past time or at a time when the Government forces people to not follow God, have they not made that final choice?

If God's sovereignty is above man's choice, then man's choice is trumped by God's sovereignty in cases where the two conflict, which is most of the time. Therefore man does not in fact have free choice. However, I do not think that man has a voice or choice in all things related to God's universe. I also think that God can speak to the heart and arrange circumstances to influence man's choice But he cannot flat-out over-ride. To influence is not the same as to over-ride.

You appear to confuse warnings to follow God, which are in fact throughout the Bible, with warnings about the close of probation, ie: the end of the ability to choose, which is not. Not all warnings are equal.

At no point does the Bible ever say "Choose now, because the ability to choose will come to an end." As in speaking of a time of probation.

Again,

So, kland, at this point I really have no idea what you are trying to drive at with this dead thing. I have stated my position. It would help me a lot if you would simply state your premise and supporting evidence. That would help to clarify views.

There's 3 words :

Sovereignty: God because He created all things is the supreme ruler the King above all kings. He establish in His laws what is sin, what is the plan of salvation, the rights of man, what is righteous judgment, etc... Man cannot change these. Man has not the right to sin against God or his neighbor. And that is why he will be judge according to God's law. In all of this God is patient, merciful, forgiven and active in teaching us His laws so He can write them on our hearts so doing right becomes natural for us.

Authority : God gives man some authority. Again if He gives a man the authority to be king or to be head of a household; man has to use his authority according to God's law. He cannot be like King Saul and do what he wants. This is usurping God's position. All thru the bible God removes man's authority when abuse and gives it to another.

Choices : Choices falls below authority. If your king of the nation decides to conduct a war; it will effect your choices that you had made. When God executed judgment over the nation of Israel at the captivity; people's choices were to a great extend was override by the event. Choices is important to exercise obedience and to learn what's right or wrong. There's choices, but choices is often changed by events. Man can be in denial and stick to his choices even thought reality in front of him shows he will become a slave or die.
So I don't know if the term over-ride is appropriate. Man just needs to face reality and reconsider his past choices and adjust with new choices.

You talk about conflict. As far as I understand this text... the conflict is not against flesh & blood. The conflict happens in the spiritual realm above against "but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." God's conflict is against those spiritual ruling entities in high places. All demons does not occupy these high position; but benefit from their work to exercise evil works in the world that influence humans. These evil entities has to be cast at Jesus feet for judgment with the involvement of man who can hear and be God's Amen people to deal with these.

As it was in the days of Noah (the majority did not believe that his message was significant for them) when you explain away the importance of Ellen White, you won't receive the Blessing that God intended for you to have.


More evidence won't help.

You said that the Bible doesn't support the ability of choosing coming to an end prior to the second coming. I showed otherwise.

His Child, you haven't given him a reason for holding Ellen White of significance.

What I said was that the Bible does not support the idea of a close of probation, ie: that the ability of all humanity to choose Christ has come to an end, and all the people still living on the earth can no longer choose. THAT only happens at the physical second coming.

For the individual, the ability to choose comes to an end at their death, but the rest of humanity can still go on choosing. When your Grandfather died, his choice was sealed. But not your father's or yours. For him, and him only, the choice is made; he has done what he has done; he has chosen what he has chosen. And the same is true at anyone else's death. But the rest of humanity continues to choose.

But there never comes a time when the option to choose is closed for all humans still living. If you are alive and on Earth, you may still choose. Right up to the second coming.

And I showed that to not be true.

The Lord states in 2Ch 20:20 "And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

Those who make up their mind that Ellen White is of no significance to them have determined that she is not a prophet of the LORD. From the discussion it appears that the mind is made up. A ton of more evidence will not change that.

I do discuss that in my book "The Day Dawns" (free reading to those who have Amazon Prime). And Today My new book (175 pages) is going to print that gives a little more evidence as it nails down Daniel and Revelation as they apply to last days events.

While the Lord did in fact say this, there is no credible evidence that EGW falls into this category.

To be fair, I should mention that at one time I was a strong supporter of EGW. However, as I continued to examine the issue, I realized that she was actually the product of a brain injury resulting in frontal lobe epilepsy, myth, legend, and lies.

Given your repeated failures to accurately interpret prophetic Scripture, contra to Scripture and SOP, coupled with your Americentric theology, one wonders if YOU yourself even believe EGW. This has seriously damaged your credibility, and I do not take you seriously. Entertaining, yes. But not seriously.

Just sayin'.

His child, will you stop with the promoting of your books, and attempt to intelligently join the conversation?

Would you agree that there is a spirit of prophecy in the last days? His child claims the gift of the spirit of prophecy. I would agree with you on your conclusion there with ample apparent evidence. But how does one go about determining whether someone has or has not the spirit of prophecy? How did you specifically decide Ellen White did not have it?

This is a really big question, and much depends on one's understanding of the phrase "spirit of prophecy" and "last days." The short answer is "YES"
His Child most definitely DOES NOT have the spirit of prophecy.

Also a big discussion. I am happy to share my experience with you if you are interested. The short answer (again) is that the more I studied SDA theology/doctrine the more discrepancies I found. When you stop allowing EGW to interpret Scripture for you you find that EGW and the Bible are saying vastly different things.

Here is a quote from the thread "Why or why not accept Mrs White as a prophet?"
You may remember this conversation, mainly between JAK, Rosangela, and Green Cochoa, but also including a few others. JAK does a very good job of laying out the objections to EGW.

************************************

OK.

Regarding Ellen White.

First (in no order of importance) let me say the following:

1. I do NOT think EGW is a "false prophet."

2. I do NOT think that EVERYTHING she said, wrote, or was published is or was "inspired gospel" (for lack of a better term) and authoritative. (Recall my "continuum theory" of inspiration.)

3. I DO think she was a godly woman trying her best to do the will of God as she understood it. (In some ways this is the most important point, because it removes any malicious or nefarious motives or intent from her part. She is not a Jesuit sleeper agent, a member of the Secret Order of the Hidden Hand, a tool of the devil...you get the point.)

4. I do think her "theology" (again, for lack of a better term) changed over time. This is both good and bad.

That being said...

These are some of the issues I have with EGW/Mrs. White/"The Pen of Inspiration"/"Spirit of Prophecy"/... I will enumerate each point and give a brief explanation of why I take issue with this, or why it causes me questions.

Again, do not apply priority to any point listed below based on its position in the list. The numbering is only to keep them organized.

1. Baggage. I immediately recognize that this relates to incorrect usage of EGW. In my experience, she is JUST NOT A NICE LADY.

2. Partial "Truth." I have this complaint against the church generally as well.* In the last 15 years or so, I have found that the things taught to me as "Truth" are actually "Truth (as seen by the SDA church through EGW glasses)" Thank God (Literally. Absolutely no blaspheme intended) for the Internet where I can research MANY views on a topic, not just be taught the party line.

3. EGW's changes (discrepancies, you might say) in her theology. If she is inspired, she MUST get it right the first time. Examples include, but are not limited to, the Shut Door doctrine.

4. EGWs use and application by the SDA church. This one is a lot easier to ascribe nefarious motive to.

5. Plagiarism. No matter what your view on this topic, from "She did not plagiarise" to "Everything she wrote was copied," one has to admit she did borrow, sometimes heavily, from other writers without giving proper credit.

6. EGW's support of un-biblical doctrines. Examples include, but are not limited to, the Investigative Judgement (IJ) doctrine.

7. OK. Here it is. She was hit in the head with a rock. This put her into a coma for three weeks. After which she started having visions. To me, this is a no-brainer. ( sorry I couldn't resist.)

8. Evangelism. If, in my discussions with people of other denominations or faiths, I resort to the use of EGW to support any point, and expect them to accept this authority, I must then, as a matter of academic and scholarly honesty, allow THEM to look for support to THEIR guru and accept THAT authority. I have found it far more convincing to simply appeal to one universally accepted authority,** The Holy Scriptures.

Therefore, given the above, there are just too many questions and uncertainties regarding Ellen White for me to either accept or study her writings as inspired gospel/Scripture, or to use her or accept her use to support any point of argument.



*
**By this I intend that most people recognize the place of Scripture in religion and the history of the world. They have never heard of EGW.

There is a Christmas carol that says "we didn't know who you were" The gist of the carol is if we had known that Jesus was the Son of God, they would not have treated Him so wickedly. As if to say since they did not know who He was it was alright to treat others like that.

Sometimes the very thing (knowledge) that we need is the thing that we reject because we just did not realize our need.

The information (my books) that I reference from time to time may be the very thing that you need, but as the Laodiceans think that they have need of nothing apart from what they think that they already have, why should you be any different?

If you want to read a brief Bible study from my book I'll make it available.

I have heard that accusation. But I find many places where proper credit is given. So I don't know what people are talking about concerning that. Could you give 3 examples in her writings where proper credit was not given?

Of all people hit in the head, do none make full recovery?

A. Google "Ellen White and Plagiarism" and spend some time reading the websites you find.

B. I find it unusual that a person would "hear accusations" about a writer they have respect for and then not examine those accusations. Seems like a bit of a "head-in-the-sand" response.

C. Please provide examples of EGW's borrowings where she DID supply credit.

I'm sure some of them do. But when one gets struck in the head and then exhibits textbook symptoms of a brain injury...ya have ta wonder...

And to then take her as your guide to the Bible...Sorry, not for me.

By this "monstrous inhumanity," as Luther afterward styled it, "savoring more of the wolf and the tyrant than of the Christian and the man," were the hearts of children steeled against their parents.--Barnas Sears, The Life of Luther, pages 70, 69. Thus did the papal leaders, like the Pharisees of old, make the commandment of God of none effect by their tradition. Thus homes were made desolate and parents were deprived of the society of their sons and daughters. {GC 82.2}

The grace of God sustained him. During the weeks of suffering that passed before his final sentence, heaven's peace filled his soul. "I write this letter," he said to a friend, "in my prison, and with my fettered hand, expecting my sentence of death tomorrow. . . . When, with the assistance of Jesus Christ, we shall again meet in the delicious peace of the future life, you will learn how merciful God has shown Himself toward me, how effectually He has supported me in the midst of my temptations and trials."--Bonnechose, vol. 2, p. 67. {GC 107.3}

In 1512, before either Luther or Zwingli had begun the work of reform, Lefevre wrote: "It is God who gives us, by faith, that righteousness which by grace alone justifies to eternal life."--Wylie, b. 13, ch. 1. Dwelling upon the mysteries of redemption, he exclaimed: "Oh, the unspeakable greatness of that exchange,--the Sinless One is condemned, and he who is guilty goes free; the Blessing bears the curse, and the cursed is brought into blessing; the Life dies, and the dead live; the Glory is whelmed in darkness, and he who knew nothing but confusion of face is clothed with glory."-- D'Aubigne, London ed., b. 12, ch. 2. {GC 212.3}




Likewise, back at ya.

Could you give 3 examples in her writings where proper credit was not given?

Imagine that! Ellen White knew what was biblically sound and what was human nonsense when she "copied" the right stuff and tossed out the trash. That is incredible! We could sure use her talents now with all the fake news and conspiracy theories that abounds.

Nadi,

You accuse me of not examining the facts. However, with less effort than you accuse me of failing, I demonstrated several references. How do you suggest I go about supporting your negative claim of evidence of absence (Prove martians don't exist)?

I suspect you do not know or concern yourself of what you heard of such plagiarisms and are not familiar with the specifics. Which is why you did not list any. You decided to go with what you heard rather than checking it out. Before I believe someone, they need to show me the data.

Imagine someone finding a gnat in their camel soup.

God is wrapping it up. I wrote this comment in response to Woman's Ordination issue. But in the study I found 4 March 2019. Food for thought!


I appreciate the fact that this conversation has led me to study a little more deeper. It is incredible what God puts in His word for those who take the time to pray and study it. We are not on the same page, probably not even in the same book.

The issue is not the relationship of husbands to wives or visa versa. The point is that before Jesus came: The male priesthood foreshadowed His role in the salvation of humanity. After Jesus fulfilled the law, the necessity of an ordained man as the minister was no longer binding. This principle is the same as in the ancient circumcision debate and the reason that we no longer sacrifice lambs: Jesus fulfilled the law.

Since Christ has made us kings and priests unto God our Father, the role of kings and priests is applicable to all believers unless only men are to be saved, which is not the case. The believers will be kings and priests in heaven. Christ prayed "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." But man (the GC in session) has overwhelmingly voted to disregard God's will that all believers in Christ are called kings and priests.

That vote was in rebellion against what Christ has established and what God has ordained. It is an abomination that will desolate those who remain in rebellion against the will of God.

My current understanding as of Bible study last night and this morning:
The vote against woman's ordination was official Wednesday, 8 July 2015, when God's people set up an abomination in our midst. "From the time that the continual [will of God] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up [8 July], there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." That allotted time ended on 18 January 2019 at which time we were at the 9th day in the 10 days of prayer. The text that day: "For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day" (2 TIMOTHY 1:12). The promise that follows is: " Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." As I read it the blessing will come on 4 March 2019. That is a few days away.

ordination haw become an idol, and as currently practiced should be done away with. Yes, all are called to be kings and priests to God. A king has subjects. Who will be our subjects? Self; self-control.

Galatians 5:11-24
(11) But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
(12) I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
(13) For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
(14) For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(15) But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
(16) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
(17) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
(18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
(19) Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
(20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
(21) envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
(23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
(24) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The date assigning shoe does not fit the foot however.

His child, you blew it again! Don't you understand? You need to project these "prophecies" some years out. Not too long that no one is worried about, but not too short that you'll be found false.


For those who rather than "to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, does not come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God. {2SM 66.2}" but who searched out the SS lesson last week may have come across the following:

The vague and fanciful interpretations of Scripture, and the many conflicting theories concerning religious faith, that are found in the Christian world are the work of our great adversary to confuse minds so that they shall not discern the truth. And the discord and division which exist among the churches of Christendom are in a great measure due to the prevailing custom of wresting the Scriptures to support a favorite theory. Instead of carefully studying God's word with humility of heart to obtain a knowledge of His will, many seek only to discover something odd or original. {GC 520.3}

Others, who have an active imagination, seize upon the figures and symbols of Holy Writ, interpret them to suit their fancy, with little regard to the testimony of Scripture as its own interpreter, and then they present their vagaries as the teachings of the Bible. {GC 521.1}

2 theologians sent me PM's to criticize the post and 2 Bible students praised it in PM's. That is 50:50 on that count.


1Sa 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; … Idolatry, witchcraft...heresies... of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Deuteronomy 13:13-14 "serve other gods...the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you"


Idolatry is serving other gods, which is an abomination. The GC voted that the will of the majority was against WO on 8 July 2015. And the math comes out that a blessing is to be had 1335 days later, which is 4 March 2019.

So you object to anti WO as an abomination? Or you do not think that there are time prophecies after 1844?

Many will honestly search the Word for Light as those in the past have searched it; and they see light in the Word. But they did not pass over the ground in their experience, when these messages of warning were first proclaimed. Not having had this experience, some do not appreciate the value of the truths that have been to us as waymarks, and that have made us as a peculiar people what we are. They do not make a right application of the Scriptures, and thus they frame theories that are not correct. It is true that they quote an abundance of Scripture, and teach much that is true; but truth is so mixed with error as to lead to wrong conclusions. Yet because they can weave Scripture into their theories, they think that they have a straight chain of truth. Many who did not have an experience in the rise of the messages, accept these erroneous theories, and are led into false paths, backward instead of forward. This is the enemy's design. {2SM 110.4}

So if March 4 comes and goes and is uneventful, what will you do?

He'll set another date.

He has never learned from his past mistakes, having made many similar false predictions already. Trump was supposed to have long since been replaced by a miraculous third term for Obama, for one example, per the "seven kings" prophecy having something to do with letters in the presidents' names, if I recall. I have learned to ignore any and all prophecies His Child speaks of, and to automatically assume when he says something that whatever he says is exactly what will NOT happen.

Some people never learn, and refuse to listen to the prophet's voice. Ellen White has given clear counsel against date setting which His Child would do well to understand and to follow. Some day, he will meet the Judge of all the earth who will not look favorably on this disobedience.

The following is plain.


The bolded part above proves that His Child is hindering God's work. He is not merely mistaken in his views, he is working against God by promulgating them.

Perhaps Maritime should actually take them down.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ordination as currently practiced is NOT Biblical.

GREEN!!! So nice to see you're still around. You should frequent the forum more often. We DESPERATELY need knowledgeable, level-headed people to participate more often.

I absolutely agree with you regarding His Child. By actively promoting his books and his completely unbiblical views he is not just a distraction, but an undermining danger.

Just sayin'.

Good to see you back.

Perhaps the blessing is to live beyond 4 March 2019?

Green,

The accuser of the brethren does not need help from you. If a date is suggested in Bible prophecy, you may choose to ignore it, I choose to try to understand it. That is why God put the prophecy there, is it not? To be understood?

Furthermore, if you will be more diligent in your representation of What Sister White actually wrote, we would be blessed. How so?

She always links time prophecy to the Day and hour of Christ's return not to all prophetic events that are revealed. Since you are delinking her comments and taking quotes out of context, it may be that you are doing more to hinder Christ's cause than what you said of me.


If you will, Consider these two statements written by sister White:



In that reference, she said that the 42 months would have a final fulfillment in the last days. I double checked it with the EG White Estates. This is their response:



One of the verses that she wrote out by longhand is Revelation 13:5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months."


By specifically stating in other places that the 42 month have been fulfilled from 538-1798 and placing them in the future, EGW is placing a specific time prophecy after 1844 and before Christ comes. And from your comment, it is a though you argue that we should make no effort to understand it.

Finally, She did it again in another statement:




Perhaps God is revealing more than you care to believe?

And the 1290 days and 1335 days of Daniel 12 are specifically endtime specific.



This was written after 1844. Why would you not want to understand it and the times that it is talking about?

Perhaps you would conclude that the vote against WO is not an abomination of desolation? Perhaps it was the GC that has authority over the everyday management and financial responsibilities of the church that has usurped authority over the conscience? So if the abomination of desolation is found to be different than anti WO, the date would have to be found to align with the abomination when it is discovered.


Christian regards,

OK, I'm lost. i thought the abomination of desolation has to do with the Sunday law.WO doesn't seem on par with something as big as that.

Tomorrow is March 4. If Donald Trump were to wake up and live on March 5, would it be right for us to conclude that he was blessed equally as the Christian earnestly clinging to God? Then what advantage would there be in being a Christian when even those who practice the dark arts are blessed?

///

It will be March 4th in about 15 minutes; just saying.

Is there always an "advantage" to being a Christian? Perhaps; but it depends what you mean when you say that?

Although I can appreciate your logic and humor here, what's your interpretation of the following passage:

Ecclesiastes 10:20 Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.

His child, if you were to hypothetically consider someone suggesting that quote applied to you, hypothetically, what aspects do you think they would be applying to you, why do you suppose they would they think that?

IT IS MARCH 5, 2019 and the following people have been blessed:

• Donald Trump
• Vladimir Putin
• Kim Jung-Un

Jer. 23:16

///

March 4th is gone and March 4th will soon be over with nothing eventful having happened on March 4th.

Another date-setting date, namely March 4th has come and gone.

What is the next date going to be and what is supposed to happen on that new date?

I think everybody is getting tired over all this date-setting, myself included.

How do you know? Your quote of Jer 26:16 must also be applied to yourself and what you "prophesy" and with all of the parade of false dates, we are left with un-adulterated falsehoods. I dont see any value in your "private interpretation" prophecy. Here is what Jer 23:16 does say:
Jeremiah here is specifically pointing out shepherds which mislead God's people...seems ironically fitting here! SHEPHERDS THAT MISLEAD GOD’S FLOCK with false time-setting prophecies! It is God’s purpose to care for His people through shepherds (pastors) who are responsible to Him. (and to the "SURE WORD" of prophecy, 2 Pet 1:19). Jesus our Lord is the Branch into which we may be grafted. He is our King who saves us and clothes us with His own spotless righteousness. God finds us in Him, Phil 3:9. Because He reigns, we are saved and dwell in safety. When we are brought into contact with false shepherds, whether the failure be in doctrine or example, let us ask for the broken heart of Jer 23:9.

God is everywhere present; as the latter paragraph indicates, He is near at hand to overhear the blasphemy of those who deride religion, and to be a very present help in time of trouble. If He fills heaven and earth, can He not fill thy heart? If His Word is like fire, let it cleanse thee! If it is as a hammer, let it pulverize thy pride! Let those of us who purport to teach and preach, not steal such roiled doctrine,but receive them from the source of all truth.

How do you know? Your quote of Jeremiah must also be applied to yourself and what you "prophesy" -- and with all of the parade of false dates -- we are left with un-adulterated falsehoods. I don't see any value in your "private interpretation" of prophecy. Here is what Jer 23:16 does say:

"Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless. They speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord."

///

"To whom has the LORD spoken?" That is the question.

People read the Bible and calculate dates from morning until night; then they raise their voices against those who would not abide by their assumptions turned prognostications turned definitive WORD.

God has a strategy with such people: sit and wait, give them lots of rope, and watch them hang themselves.

Mat. 27:3-10 cf. Psalm 2:4

///

I agree. Nothing eventful, at least in terms of any prophetic significance, took place on March 4th. As I posted before that date, I knew already that nothing would happen on that day. I was confident of this, because Mrs. White has informed us that all such false prophecies would fail.

I'm so glad we have Ellen White's good counsels to guide us! Without her writings, we might be left in a sea of confusion, tossed to and fro by the winds of ignorance, strife, and error.



And here are additional details:



So, we cannot know the following times:

1) Outpouring of the holy spirit
2) Second coming
3) Close of probation
4) ANY "definite time"

The message is clear: STOP SETTING DATES. God has not given us this work. There won't be any legitimate dates to set in our message to the people from now to the second coming.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Shall we take bets on the date that he sets another date?

What do you say is happening in the following verse?

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

If you want to pursue a discussion of the Investigative Judgement, check the following thread as a discussion on this topic already exists.

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...8228#Post188228

That's not about an SDA IJ at all; so it is safe to discuss the verse on this thread. The angel speaking with John told him what "judgment" it was. And it was God's judgment of Babylon. Look at the series of proclamations (Rev. 14:6-13):

• "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
  
  NOTICE THE CALL TO WORSHIP GOD ALONE
   
• "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
  
  NOTICE WHY BABYLON "IS FALLEN": THE WRATH OF HER FORNICATION (WITH WHO????)
   
• "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
  
  NOTICE THE JUDGMENT: THE WRATH OF GOD POURED OUT FULL STRENGTH INTO THE CUP OF HIS INDIGNATION!!!!!!!!!

In other words, Babylon, instead of advancing the worship of God, was colluding with the Beast and in fierce anger forcing others to worship the Image. For that reason, Babylon "was fallen" --- and the hour of God's judgment against that city had come.

Do SDA consider themselves to be BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF HARLOTS? Then why do they continue to follow blindly, stumbling into the ditch of mangled and convoluted wrong interpretations, declaring themselves to be under judgment? John 5:24

///

???

No other denomination of any stripe, past, present, or future, believes the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement. It is unique to Seventh-day Adventists.

So...YES, it IS an SDA IJ.

***

• You MISSED the point which was: << "That's [i.e. Rev. 14:7] not about an SDA IJ." >> Look before you leap.

///

Amazing the feedback that was generated by my post.

The fact is that 4 March was a super blessing to me personally spiritually and otherwise in ways that I had neve imagined. It came out of the blue and it was of the LORD.


Perhaps you should go back to reread my post and see what I actually said instead of trusting the comments as to what people have read into my post. There are things that the LORD wants us to understand and the Laodicean mindset is so ingrained in some of us that we won't look at anything because of a fear of getting something wrong, then we won't be ready to go forward by faith. And we may be too ready to join the accuser of the brethren.

It is the time of the final shaking. Surely from some of the comments posted the LORD will not have a difficult time to see who is a skeptic and who is a Bible student.


In the parable of the 10 virgins some slumbered and some slept. Studying those words some dosed off and some died. The dozing virgins can awake in time, the dead virgins won't awaken until the resurrection. Too late to meet the Bride Groom.

To those who tried to enter into a reasoning together conversation, I thank you. To those who criticized and merely found fault without trying to uplift Jesus, I pity you.

I am a student of the Bible. I try to understand it and I study with prayer and an open mind. And the LORD has blessed my study, though I like John the Baptist who did not understand everything clearly went forward with what he did understand. After he proclaimed that Jesus was the Lamb of God, he sent messengers to Jesus to ask if He was the Messiah. There are somethings that we know and we need confirmation.

On March 1, 2019, "His Child" wrote the following:


Unfortunately, in that statement he has made more than one misstep.

1) According to Ellen White, there will be no more prophecy upon definite time. But HC has here given TWO times, erroneously said to be prophetic.

2) He claims that "God's people set up an abomination in our midst" on 8 July 2015, the day women's ordination was rejected for the third time at a General Conference Session. This implies that:

a) HC does not accept that Ellen White's counsels are still applicable today, for she says the decisions of the General Conference in Session are to be regarded as the voice of God; and

b) HC believes it is an "abomination" to reject women's ordination--something which is not supported in Scriptures.


His Child, Jesus loves you. But: "Good and evil never harmonize. Between light and darkness there can be no compromise. Truth is light revealed; error is darkness. Light has no fellowship with darkness, righteousness no fellowship with unrighteousness." You cannot speak in contradiction to God's inspired writers and expect Him to accept the error as if it were of no consequence. Error is a serious thing.



You should find that last paragraph to be especially thought-provoking in your case, His Child. When I have presented words of wisdom from Mrs. White that apply directly to your case, you have mislabeled me as the accuser of the brethren. But from whom did the rebukes come? Whose pen recorded those messages?

Be careful, "lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Really?

While you are correct about Rev. 14:7 not being about the IJ, your response was ambiguous; did it refer to the thread which I referenced or the Bible text?

So, since you're so free with advice here's some for you: learn how to structure an English sentence.

What, pray tell, was the March 4 "super blessing"?

There are times that one can only laugh. Just laugh. That's all.

You should be aware, that ALL time prophecies are conditional with respect to time. God reserves the right to change His mind; and those who speak so definitively saying, "Watch out for March 4 at precisely 12:43 pm and 21.876 seconds ...!" have fallen into the ditch. Shall the pottery say to the potter, "What handle have you made? It is not according to specifications!"

But though the rug is pulled from under a man, he gets up, dusts himself off and says, "That was supposed to happen." Pride goes before a fall, and he who kills his own conscience is as good as dead.

///

On March 9, 2019, "Green" replied to the post from Hch. Now Hch is examining what Green replied:



Ellen White clearly states that there will be no time prophecy giving the date of Christ's advent. She contrasts the world's view of ALL TIME PROPHECY to time prophecy relating specifically to Christ's second Advent. Thus "Green" is making Ellen White contradict herself. Hch has shown this by quoting EGW that the 1260 years were fulfilled between 538-1798 and before she died, EGW places ALL OF REVELATION 13 in the future (after 1844), which included the 42 months as evidenced by her writing out that very text by long hand.







Those who quote EGW, need to quote her correctly. The traditions that have crept into the SDA Church are making EGW say what she doe not say. And thus you are teaching the commandments of men in contradiction to the word of God.



Ellen White taught that the GC in session had authority over the work of God on earth to manage it finances and general operations. NOT moral authority to dictate the conscience of believers.










Who are God's messengers?



I have presented this evidence in the past and more. The issue is obedience to the revealed will of God.

Prior to Christ coming; man as a priest foreshadowed the role of Christ in our salvation. After Christ fulfilled the law, the law was changed as it is written in Hebrews. The changed law had priests from Aaron's line and Jesus from the tribe of Judah. There is no indication in Scripture that the changed law allows just any man Jew, Greek, or gentile to be a priest. But we allow any man to be a priest/minister. The only qualification that man has added to the change in the law is that the priest/minister be a man.

But Christ, the prince of the kings of the earth, has already made His people kings and priests unto God (cf Revelation 1:6). And when His people get to heaven (5:10) they will have that role. Are only men qualified to be kings and priests? Are only men going to be in heaven? Absurd!

As Christ has fulfilled the law of circumcision, He has fulfilled the law of male priesthood and women, who are called may heed their calling.














Christian regards,

While you were watching 4 March 2019, did you see this?

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2019...ce-in-politics/

Do you see the contrasting parallels?

General conference in session dictating who cannot be ordained to serve God (limiting God's work on earth) and 1335 days later: The pope telling his followers how to gain political influence (to extend Catholic influence in Latin America).

The image beast is forming behind the scenes and political movements are hindering the work of God.

Wow! you said we didn't read your March 4 prophesy correctly, --you said on March 4, the Lord blessed you! Imagine! A Bible time prophecy just for you!
I want to know, and this is asked with respect, but, how does God give you these messages? Do you hear voices?

Yeah. Today is going to be a Biblically predicted event of great disaster. Tomorrow, I say I lost my pencil.

I was talking about the judgment portion. Notice it comes before the fall of Babylon. Verse nine says "third angel followed". This indicates there were two previous ones. In sequence. The fall happens after the judgment.

But you seem to want to talk about Babylon.

What do you say is Babylon and can you give support from Revelation?

Why did you take out the judgment of God in order to impose your own interpretation of what the judgment was? Here was the judgment:

• "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:6-13
   
• NOTICE THE JUDGMENT: THE WRATH OF GOD POURED OUT FULL STRENGTH INTO THE CUP OF HIS INDIGNATION!!!!!!!!!
   
• In other words, Babylon, instead of advancing the worship of God, was colluding with the Beast and in fierce anger forcing others to worship the Image. For that reason, Babylon "was fallen" --- and the hour of God's judgment against that city had come.

Do SDA consider themselves to be BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF HARLOTS? Then why do they continue to follow blindly, stumbling into the ditch of mangled and convoluted wrong interpretations, declaring themselves to be under judgment? John 5:24

I think you are substituting in "judgment" for "wrath".

What do you say is Babylon and can you give support from Revelation?

Did you predict that terrible hurricane blizzard that engulfed the Midwest?

Is the loss of your pencil, when you found you computer to type the post above?

Some folks will be to smart to look and live. It happened when Moses raised the brass serpent on the pole in the wilderness. Some folks knew that looking at a snake on a pole wouldn't cure their deadly wound. They dug in their heels and ran the clock out: They died before they realized that they could have looked and lived.

And some people consulted the witch of Endor.

It takes discernment om God to know who is led of the Holy Spirit and who is consulting devils.

His Child,

The Bible could hardly be more clear. Your prophecies have failed. You are, consequently, a false prophet.

Remember the prophet who prophesied against Jeroboam and the altar he had set up? Remember how he was given strict instructions from God to return home another way without stopping to eat or drink along the way? Remember that another prophet gave him a message "from God" that he was to eat with him?

Woe unto him who listens to the wrong prophet, assuming, because of his fair speech, that he has God's spirit and message.

The Bible helps us know which prophet to follow: "...when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him" (Jeremiah 28:9).

Based on that scripture, until Obama becomes president again, replacing Trump, can you be considered a true prophet of God? Your word has not come to pass. I know, you'll probably say you haven't claimed to be a prophet. Well, neither did the prophets in the Bible. A prophet is one because of his or her word as to what God is doing or will do. You have given yours.

"If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." How much light? The devil mixes truth with error. He is an expert at it. That you have spoken some truths does not establish the validity of all you have said.

I think there have been at least three or four specific prophecies you have promulgated here in the past which failed to come to pass. If someone could make a list of all of your prophetic sayings/interpretations, it would be easier to determine just which ones had any potential validity and which ones outright failed.

Here's one of your false interpretations/prophecies:


That is obviously false because Mrs. White and Jesus tell us we will not and cannot know when the judgment will pass from the dead to the living.



Yes, it takes discernment to know who is led of the Holy Spirit and who is consulting devils. Unfortunately, many who do the latter are ignorant of the fact that their devils are not actually the Holy Spirit. Self-deception is the worst kind. Who can undeceive such a one?


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green,

We would do well to consider the counsel in the testimonies:

HC,

I can heartily agree with that. Did you notice how much she dwelt on "truth" in that statement? Truth and love are partners--and many misunderstand what true love is.



Excusing evil is no sign of true love. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green,
On one point we agree.

But we disagree on the fact: You think you understand BUT you do not understand what I have done and am doing so much so that you have called my work evil when it is in service of God.

You would do good to remember that God once told Abraham to sacrifice his son, his only son Isaac. If you had been one of Abraham's counselors, you would have concluded that this could not have been God speaking to Abraham because it is not in harmony with God's word. But Abraham knew the voice of God and though the command was not in accordance with God's teachings, Abraham did not rationalize that Satan was appearing to him as if he were God. Abraham knew the voice of God and obeyed.

If you understood that man is not infallible and that by studying the word of God with prayer and following it through faith, you would see a growth from partial understanding to a more complete understanding. But because you focus on the shortcomings in my studies that were not completely understood at various times in my studies, you have pronounced me a false prophet rather than a growing Christian. And now that my understanding has matured a great deal, you are unable to see the development of truth so much so that you label it error. And you cast a shadow of unbelief over my comments. That will only turn people to darkness when I offer them light.

The final shaking will shake everything that is not firmly established in Christ. That time has arrived.

Christian regards

His Child,

Your theology here has become dangerous. You would have us believe that a knowledge of the Scriptures is of less use than a faith that comes from a relationship with Christ (prayer)? If, however, your understanding is growing, as you have said, I hope you will resolve from henceforth to set no more dates. That would be in accordance with the teaching of Ellen White.

I know in whom I have believed, Henry. My faith is solidly based on a "thus saith the Lord," and will not be undermined by any form of a mere emotional appeal. Please remember that which was written by the prophet:



God has given us His Word. We may safely accept it as faithful and true, and we must use it, and it alone, as the light to shine on the errors that surround us. Only in the light of God's Word will we find sound steps upon which to place our feet.

In the words of the famous reformer: "Here I stand, I can do no other; may God help me. Amen."

Green Cochoa.

Green,
Thank you for showing me that my post was unclear. Language is an imperfect way of expression. The Bible only, BUT The Bible apart from the Holy Spirit can do more harm than good.

If Green and you both read the same Bible, and what Scripture says, and you say one needs the Holy Spirit and Scripture to understand, then one of you is being led by a spirit that is not holy. so is Green deceived? Or are you? It has to be one or the other.

That is what Jesus said in His message to the Laodiceans,

Laodiceans think that they are rich, and in need of nothing etc... But Jesus does not see them the way they see themselves as He warns them to reform.

Revelation continues to say that the rich beg for the rocks to fall on them.


Great reasons to double check how we are hearing God's word and responding.

Wow. just like on your other post on another thread, you said "Those who study grow in grace. Those who don't look at the facts are clueless."

I spend a whole lot of time studying. How dare you. I love the Lord, and I think you are a prideful full of your self beast of burden. I have you on ignore.

Hey, I'm sorry I was so mean to you. I should let you do your own thing. won't yell at you again. Forgive.
It won't let me edit my former posts.

The mindset of this generation is one of intolerance. Where Americans used to share views and seek for common ground, it is now a battle for staking out an opinion and defending it at all costs.

I dare share what I know, because it is what I know. I don't mean to offend people along the way and I am sorry that I came across as being more right than you.

When the dust settles, I will be judged on what I know and how much I loved Jesus in that I apply it in obeying Him. Thank you for your kind follow up note. No offence taken and none intended.

His Child, does the IJ involve the Sunday Laws in any way?

Most certainly Sabbath and Sunday.
But is God taking into consideration the amount of knowledge that the Sunday keeper has at the time they are Judged?

Regarding the IJ of the Living. Must people pass the Sabbath test before they are forever saved or lost?

As I do not hold to SDA theology on all points, it should come as no surprise that I do not see Biblical support for the IJ, and do not agree that "the Sabbath" is a test of any sort. Acts says "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." TMK the NT never attaches an Old Covenant condition or requirement to salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith.

As I currently understand it, The Sabbath issue will not be the test until it is enforced by the law of the land.

The Ten Commandments are the standard by which all are judged and it is written if we break one commandment, we are guilty of all. So it must be that God takes our level of knowledge and our level of obedience into consideration to judge us prior to the implementation of the MOB.

Nadi, yes, I agree - saved by faith. Thank you, Jesus. As you see it, what is the fruit of saving faith? And, what does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment?

His Child, are people numbered and sealed before they pass the MOB test?

By "fruit" I assume you to mean the result in one's life and behavior.

In a NUTSHELL:

So, going on that assumption, I believe one is saved solely through the grace of God without any merit or actions on our part with the exception of accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

As a result of the Holy Spirit's action on the heart, which drew the sinner to God in the first place, there is also a desire to lead a life acceptable to God. This is part and parcel of the conversion/salvation process. Without a desire to change there is actually no true conversion.

Through the leading of the HS, which is ascertained through prayer and the reading of Scripture, one begins to change their behavior in accordance with their understanding of the Spirit's leading.

However, being human, our behavior changes slowly and imperfectly, often with much resistance on our part. But we must continue in the Christian life, being led by the HS through Bible study and Prayer, confident that forgiveness is ALWAYS available. When we sin and ask forgiveness, we are not restored to God's favor because we never left it. This point is important, even vital, because we cannot do our best unless we know that we are NOT REJECTED (ie: we do not leave God's favor) if we fail.

Nadi,

1) which Bible passages tell us that the fruit of saving faith is "our behavior changes slowly and imperfectly"?

2) you wrote - "When we sin and ask forgiveness, we are not restored to God's favor because we never left it." Does anything change when we sin (before we "ask forgiveness")?

3) and, what does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment?

The fruit of saving faith is not "our behavior changes slowly and imperfectly," rather the fruit is "a desire to lead a life acceptable to God."

The short answer is No, nothing changes. God himself, through the Holy Spirit, will bring us to repentance if we continue in the Christian walk. It is our desire to follow Christ and be led by the Holy Spirit that is important to God. If we continue with that desire God will continue to work with us, and we do not leave His grace. This is why David could be called a man after God's own heart.

I haven't gotten to that part yet.

Nadi, you wrote - saving faith is "a desire to lead a life acceptable to God." As you see it, what is the difference between "desire" and "doing" as it pertains to living in harmony with God's will? And, how do the following passages speak to the issue at hand?

Matthew
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” the Saviour referred him to the Scriptures, saying: “What is written in the law? how readest thou?” Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God's law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right. His soul's salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything. GC 598.1

Many are daily cheating their souls with a form of godliness without the power; but the Lord has removed His smile and the inspiration of His Spirit from them. His displeasure is against them, because their deeds are evil. He demands decided changes in the life and character. Good intentions, good resolutions, good acts, can not be accepted as substitutes for repentance, faith, and willing obedience. ST November 7, 1906, par. 4

Many are inquiring, “How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?” You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. SC 47.1

Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. SC 47.2

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. SC 48.1

A close reading of that which I actually write will be helpful. I did not say that "... the fruit of saving faith is "our behavior changes slowly and imperfectly" nor did I say "saving faith is "a desire to lead a life acceptable to God." "Rather, I said that THE FRUIT OF (ie: the result of, or that which is produced by) SAVING FAITH is a desire to lead a life acceptable to God.

No difference. The desire is as much a sin as the doing. However, through the grace and power of God we can refrain from the doing as God works to change the desire, while at all times remaining secure in the grace of God.

On the other hand, God accepts as sufficient our desire to live a holy life, even though we may not actually BE living a holy life. His grace makes up for our shortfall as long as we continue to seek Him.

Nadi, not sure I understand. I'll wait for you to finish addressing my quotes and questions. Thank you.

Mike,

Review Ezekiel 9. The man with the ink goes through (sealing God's people) before the men with the slaughter weapons). And Judgment begins at the House of God.

If no one is sealed before the MOB how would God pour out His Holy Spirit to finish the work? Just as the judgment of the people before Christ Comes, the sealing has to precede the out pouring of the Holy Spirit.

Are people who are not sealed, going to resist the MOB? Or is resisting the MOB something that prepares us to be sealed?

But is that really an issue that we have to concern ourselves with? Pray for the Holy Spirit and prepare to meet our God.

As I have apparently struggled to make my position clear, perhaps it is best if we abandon this line of discussion.

If you wish, you could clarify or be more specific about what it is regarding my posts that you do not understand.

Or not.

Nadi, I am willing to work to understand. Thank you for being willing to help.


Please help me understand your thoughts on the relationship between faith and fruit as it pertains to
1) the desire to live in harmony with God's will as opposed to
2) actually doing it, literally living in harmony with God's will.
3) Is a desire (willingness, preference, intention, etc) to obey (while failing to obey) a fruit of faith?
4) Does Jesus promise to empower us to continuously live in harmony with God's will?



I realize you are currently working on a response to this question.

Are you referring to the Latter Rain when you say "the out pouring of the Holy Spirit"? If so, pleases help me understand the timing of the following events:


During the little time of trouble, as Sunday Laws increase in intensity (the MOB crisis), the SDA Family will suffer the Shaking. Unsanctified members will be sifted and shaken out leaving a sanctified, purified Church which, in turn, receives the Latter Rain, which empowers them to proclaim the 3AM more effectively causing the message to swell into the Loud Cry. During this time, many sanctified, purified members will suffer persecution, imprisonment, and death. Which clearly means they were not numbered and sealed in the forehead with the Seal of the Living God.

Seems to me Jesus numbers and seals sanctified members after they demonstrate their commitment and loyalty during the MOB crisis. In other words, they are numbered and sealed after they pass the MOB test. Then they receive the LR and are thereby empowered to proclaim the 3AM more effectively and fortified thereby to stand faithfully through JTOT.

Both the desire and the doing are prompted by the Holy Spirit. However, humans are weak, and do not always do what they know they should (or want to) do. Paul says this in Romans, as does C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity.

As in the above answer, both the desire and the faith come from God through the Holy Spirit. One is not the result of the other. The desire is from the HS, but the failing is just us. God does "promise to empower us to continuously live in harmony with God's will" but he also knows that we must grow before we can do that perfectly. Therefore He knows we will fail, and expects it. This is not meaning expects in that he wants us to fail, just that he knows we will. However, at all times, whether succeeding or failing, even desiring or not desiring, once we have committed our lives to Christ and accepted his salvation, we remain in the grace of God. This point is critical, as it allows us to grow in God's grace without fear of failure or rejection because we don't measure up. "God is patient with us, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance." Sometimes, we take a long time to come to repentance.


In my understanding this is an unrelated subject, and I would like to pursue the current discussion before engaging in this one.

HC, and this passage:

"This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... Mar 164.4

Nadi, I think I better understand your position on faith and the fruit of faith as it concerns sinning and succeeding.

Notice that the enforcement of Sunday is not in Ellen Whites original quotation, it is supplemented by someone other than EGW.



Perhaps their preparedness when the latter rain comes is the issue that will weed out those who are not prepared? "Prepare to meet thy God"

It seems to me that that is a reversal of the sequence. Those that receive the former rain are sealed are prepared to meet the test. You are correct that those who pass the final test are sealed. But how can we pass the test if we are not sealed. The former rain prepares us for the latter rain. Like sanctification being the work of a lifetime? Those who are justified begin the process of being sanctified?

Thank you for this quote, though it is out of context.



In Revelation 13:11-17 the warning is against taking the physical mark of the beast.

HC, thank you for sharing your view.

Mike,
I can't take credit for "my views" The quotations were cut and pasted from the Spirit of Prophecy.

While listening to Walter this morning, I learned:

"The precious time that should be spent in speaking of the Saviour's power to save . . ." Yes. "More about Jesus . . . "

That is paradoxical.

The Jews were celebrating the Passover at the very time they were crucifying Christ. Their profession did not agree with actions.

It can be like wanting to spend precious time speaking about the Saviour's power to save while rejection the prophecies that tell us that the clock is running down and failing to be ready to meet Him.

That is the parable of the 10 virgins in action.