Are The Feast Days & Sabbaths Still Binding?

Check out online at the link below the Amazing Facts booklet written by Joe Crews, entitled Feast Days and Sabbaths: Are they still binding?

Feast Days and Sabbaths: Are They Still Binding?

Assuming that you have read this online booklet at the above link, are the Feast Days and Sabbaths still binding?

Well, it looks as though the late Pastor Crews was under the impression that we are no longer obligated to observe the ceremonial feasts, sabbaths and ordinances. Which makes sense to me at this point in my studies.

Because how can we observe them without animal sacrifices and the temple in Jerusalem? So much of the rules regulating those annual feast days talk about the kinds of animals to be used as a sacrifice, and where in the temple the blood was to be transferred and applied. Are we supposed to disregard those aspects in order to honor the autumnal ceremonial feasts? Are we supposed to, by faith, offer the blood of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary as a substitute for the blood of animals?

And what about baptism and the eucharist (communion)? If they aren't meant to replace the ceremonial feasts, then what are they supposed to accommodate? Or are we supposed to observe communion during the Fall Feasts in accordance with the ancient Jewish Calendar? Or are we under a new covenant, a new dispensation, a new world order? with new rules, a new temple, a new high priest and priesthood?

I would agree that we are no longer "bound" to keep the annual sabbath/feasts. I believe that they were done away with in the sense of mandated keeping. I believe, however, that the annual feasts had at least a dual application. I believe that they were yearly reminders of God's plan of salvation, and I believe that they were prophetic guideposts in the process of salvation. As SDAs we all accept that the 3 first feasts were fulfilled typologically in the death of Christ on Calvary. The feast of Pentecost was fulfilled in Acts 2. We have nearly completed the feast of Trumpets, we are in the Day of Atonement, and the the feast of Booths is getting ready to start. So the annual Sabbaths are still in effect as prophetic guidelines but not in effect as annual mandated requirements.

Thank you, Greg.

I am inclined to agree with you.

I never thought of it that way before.

One wonders if there are any feast promoters in the southern hemisphere and when they say they should be kept. Do they see "that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem"?

The Jewish people celebrate the feasts in the Southern hemisphere. South Africa, Australia, south America -- they celebrate them on the same calendar days as people in the northern hemisphere.

Anciently, as I understand it, the Sanhedrin would evaluate conditions every spring, it wasn't just based on the equinox but on spring conditions. If the barley harvest was too immature, the countryside still too wet, and the trees still not in bloom, they would add a 13th month before Nissan, thus adjusting the calendar to ensure that Nissan, the month of the holiday of Passover, always fell during the actual (not just calculated) spring season.

After Jerusalem was destroyed and the Sanhedrin was no more, Hillel and his rabbinical court in the fourth century AD, established a perpetual Jewish calendar which is still followed by the majority of Jews today. (though we know there were some groups that did not agree with the calendar -- like the Karaite)

Those in the Southern hemisphere do not take the "spring" "fall" principles into account, but simply follow the calendar and stay "aligned" with Palestine reckoning.

Non-Jews who promote the feasts tend to follow the same calendar no matter where they live. It's not so much to "go to Jerusalem" as to "align with Jerusalem".

However -- there really is only a small fraction of resemblance between what the Bible says is to take place on the feasts, and the common practices of those who celebrate them.

Greg- So the annual Sabbaths are still in effect as prophetic guidelines but not in effect as annual mandated requirements.

I would say this belief would be covered under the following--

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

If one gets a richer experience from observing them for the sake of drawing closer to Christ-praise the Lord. But as you say, it's definitely not mandatory or required. I believe EGW speaks favorably in observing them for their historical perspectives and enrichment of God's divine purposes. If one see this as a "must do" or promotes it as such--then the line is crossed I believe. If one has this belief then the curtain was split for no purpose.

They are "in effect" only so long as one desires to enjoy it.

The Bible does speak of a mandatory future commandment of keeping the feast of Tabernacles.

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." (Zech.14:16)

Going to Jerusalem or aligning with Jerusalem. If one so "aligns", are they not going to Jerusalem mentally? I think Ellen White says something about not exerting energies in paying attention to Old Jerusalem.

You mean also of the mandatory future commandment of sacrifices?

"Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts." (Zech.14:21)

Or do you think Zechariah 14 is talking about something else or a different "future" time, not future to now, than what you suggest?
You know, where it's talking about people living in Egypt won't have rain, bells on horses, and pots before the altar.

Kland-- I have no problem addressing your questions , as long as there is a strong desire to know truth and if you or I find we are in error and corrected--WE ADMIT IT--deal?
as long as a mutual respectful attitude is employed, sharing and learning is fine by me.

I'm just trying to figure out how they think. How can one say one verse means future and a couple of verses later it mean not?

A classic verse they use is:
Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

So if we are mentally to go to Old Jerusalem to determine the alignment of the year, would it not follow they should mentally go to Old Jerusalem to determine the alignment of the day and therefore, the Sabbath?

Don't we pretty much do that? Saturday in Palestine will this week be on April 18, 2015 -- thus all over the world (except for the confused on South Sea Islands) everyone who worships on the 7th day Sabbath will be worshipping on April 18 Saturday. We do point back to the time of Jesus life in Palestine to validate which day is the seventh-day.

However, you are talking about the feasts -- the feasts are based on seasons -- spring -> fall. And obviously it isn't spring in the southern hemisphere when it is spring in Palestine.

I tend to agree with Greg on this matter, that the actual keeping of the feast days and seasons are no longer binding -- they were shadows -- prophetic guidelines of the plan of salvation. They ended when the veil in the sanctuary was ripped in two and temple services were no longer necessary.

However, those feasts and sanctuary rituals are a map of salvation's plan, and just like the earthly temple (which we no longer look to as having actual use here on earth) yet those rituals and feasts are important to study in order to understand the plan of salvation. If people want to set aside that time to reflect on their prophetic meaning there is nothing wrong with doing so.
That is the keeping Greg was referring to -- seeing the feasts in the light of their prophetic meaning, not a mandatory keeping of actual days.

Passover -- Christ is the Passover lamb slain once and for all.
Pentecost -- The outpouring of the Holy Spirit
Feast of Trumpets -- sounding the call that the hour of judgment is here
Day of Atonement -- the pre-advent judgment
Feast of Tabernacles -- the second coming when our earthly sojourn is ended.

That is the map -- we are near the end of earth's journey!

I like the map idea and the progression aspect too.

What they do is not quite right, for if they align with Jerusalem as to the day, they should align with it also as to the time. That's how the Millerites reasoned, and that's how, in 1844, Tishri 10 was mostly on the calendar date of Oct. 23 in Jerusalem, while the same period of time fell mostly on Oct. 22 in America owing to the difference in time zone.

No. We look to what day is where we live at. Otherwise, we would be doing something similar to the South Sea Islands, in saying there is an absolute place of day.

And either we look to Old Jerusalem or we don't. And if we look to it for what spring is, then we should also look to it as to when the sun sets. And I'm sure there very well could be some here who would promote such an idea, or think it's a good idea.



And along the same idea, there would exist certain times when if you didn't go by the time of Old Jerusalem, the year would begin at a different month other places.

It boils down to, do we look to Old Jerusalem or not. I believe Ellen White says not. Therefore, we don't base our days from Old Jerusalem, we don't base our years from Old Jerusalem, we don't base our seasons from Old Jerusalem, and we don't keep the feast days and other rites and ceremonies of Old Jerusalem.

Is there no harm? Or is this a case of harmless looking weeds gaining in strength until it damages the harvest?

Consider that many of them are promoting keeping the feasts as a salvational issue, that only those who keep them will be among the 144,000. They are giving the idea to come out of "babylon" and separate from the church. There are some who are promoting the sacred name movement and some who are trying to say that Adventists are wrong about when the Sabbath starts, that it really starts at sunrise and ends at noon (between the evenings). Is there something wrong with that?

One wonders if there's any connection between the Jewish feast promoters and those in certain South Sea Islands....

I agree.


I agree.

Old Jerusalem was not always the location where to keep the feasts or other rites. In the law, the specific place to keep the feasts is NOT specified -- for a very good reason. The Lord foreknew that this location would change through TIME. The law says to keep the feast wherever His name/glory will be.

AV Dt 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

AV Dt 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

The place the Lord chose to place His Name/Glory changed location through TIME :

1. 40 years in the wilderness : His name/glory was manifested in the Sanctuary Tent depending on wherever the location they were encamping.

2. Shiloh : Reside there for about 400 years until it departed from there and never return back because of the corruption of the Priesthood (1Sam 4:21, Ps 78:59-69).

3. Jerusalem : Reside there for about 300 years until it departed from there and never return back because of the corruption of the Priesthood (Jer 7:11-14, Ez 10- 11)

4. Mt. Olives : Ezekiel saw the glory departing from the temple in Jerusalem and rested on the mountain on the east side of the city which is Mt. Olives.

Ez 10:18 “Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims…Ez 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. 23. And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which [is] on the east side of the city.

Here’s some interesting notes about Mount of Olives :

a) It is 2000 cubits from the city which is considered “outside the camp” and “a Sabbath day’s journey.”
b) It is said that this is where the ashes of the red heifer was stored(Num 19:3)
c) It is the place where David made his sacrifice(2 Sam 15:30) which b) & c) both pointed to Jesus sacrifice.
d) It is the place where Jesus often went to pray
e) Also the place He ascended in sight of his disciples 40 days after He died(Acts 1:12).

5. Forehead of Believers : Then from the Mt.Olives the next place that the glory of the Lord was seen and manifested was at the upper room at Pentecost and the people there received an deposit of the Spirit.

AV Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. .

Where to Keep the Feasts & rites TODAY?

So according to the last revelation and where His glory/name was last manifested – at #5 location.

So my understanding is the place to keep the feasts today is between our two ears.

So you are saying we are to determine the beginning of the year from between our two ears? Meaning each person has their own personalized start of year, widely different from the northern to southern hemisphere? For that was what was under discussion.

For those who wish to know, here's a link to an interview by C.A. Murray from 3ABN: Feast Keeping and The Final Crisis

Which beginning of the year are you referring to? Rosh Hashanah (day of Trumpet) or first of Abib? Rosh Hashanah literally means head of year. It is the Jewish recognize NEW YEAR.

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNewYear/template_cdo/aid/4762/jewish/What-Is-Rosh-Hashanah.htm

God created the evening (or darkness) before the day (or light). A new day starts in the evening after sundown. My understanding is Rosh hashanah(1st day of trumpet around fall equinox) is based on this pattern. The fall equinox is when the day time are mostly dark.

Rosh Hashanah is when I believe (like the Jews) the world was created thus when the earth calendar started.

Abib is not based on creation day, but based on Passover -- the spiritual birth. The month of Abib was a memorial set for the birth of God’s firstborn coming out of Egypt. (Ex 13:3,9; Deut 16:1; Ex 4:22) All needed to be circumcised to keep the Passover when they got out. As a new born nation, they got baptized in the red sea(1Cor 10:1,2). It was a new beginning for the nation --a new corporate spiritual birth experience. The Passover set the pattern of the beginning of the path of the new spiritual life. Other feasts shows other level of spiritual growth, but any spiritual journey all starts at Passover. That's what I understand the Lords means with Abib being the first month to you.

AV Ex 12:2 This month [Abib] [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

“First month of the year TO YOU.” This doesn’t mean that there ain’t any other first month of the year for the Lord.



There’s many type of starts of year and there’s many appointed times. The Hebrew word for feasts is mow`ed that means an "appointed time". There’s many appointed times other than the feasts. Also there's many calendars and time cycle other than day, week, month, and year that the Lord has establish and uses to make many events happen.

Some Points:

-I think Rosh-hashanah supercedes Abib 1 as start of year,

-the start of year from Abib was added during Exodus

-some appointed time were instructed to be observed 40 years later. (Only the Passover was observed in the Wilderness, however Pentecost and Tabernacle was only observed when they entered the promised land),

-the form of observance of appointed times were changed at the cross (sacrifice of animals, worship in physical Temples, Priesthood only of Levites bloodlines, etc…).



Concerning the first of Abib based on the barley ripeness and the sighting of the first crescent of the moon -- these were Types and shadows of greater things to come. You seem to be still stuck in the “Old Covenant” form of worship.

Jerusalem timing, northern to southern hemispher -- it is all irrelevant today. Jerusalem is no longer the place where the Lord’s name is located. The location has changed place like it changed location many times in the past :

i) when they entered Canaan,
ii)like it departed from Shiloh after the corruption of the Priesthood,
iii)like it departed from Jerusalem as told by Jeremiah and seen by Ezekiel.
iv)The new location for His name/glory to dwell is in our body temple.

Old Jerusalem was only a symbolism of greater things to come. Jerusalem was pointing to our body temple.



Those that hear and follow Jesus does not follow their own thoughts, words, interpretation, or appointed time. They follow only the Lord’s appointed time. Much more than those of the feasts.


Spiritually speaking -- the overcomers(the matured Barley) OBSERVE the "new moons" (what the Lord does during the feasts time).

I just watched this video. Many problems with what Mr. Ron du Preez teachings. I will only bring up two points that is his foundation to seperate the Sabbath from the Feasts, and then nail the Feasts on the cross:

1- that the Feasts is intimately attached to the sacrificial service and the Sabbath is NOT. That's not what scriptures says. The weekly Sabbath day was attach to sacrificial ritural too like all the feasts.



2. That the Sabbath is not a Feast. That's not what scriptures say.



The weekly Sabbath was the first feast(appointed time) mentioned in the list.

I agree the weekly Sabbath is not set on a monthly cycle, however it is still an "appointed time". Remember the Hebrew word mow'ed means "appointed time". There are 223 occurrences of mow'ed in the OT and only 23 of these are translated as "feasts".

Further :

He seperates the ceremonial Feasts Sabbath days from the weekly Sabbath, and from the yearly Sabbath and from the Jubilee Year Sabbath. Well, he probably didn't get that the Shabbath H7676 means "intermission" and is an extension form of the word H7673 shabath(spelled with one "b" and means "rest"). I know this might seem like pulling hair, but there's a distinction in the meanings and that's why there's two words.

All of the Sabbaths are intermission that represents intervals or gap of time at different level of the plan of salvation. The weekly Sabbath being the most basic and lowest form is like a foundational pattern or type where other Sabbaths is based on.

So basically they are all related and points to the greater Sabbath of all which is the Jubilee when all work cease because all debts are cancels and the people are restore back into their inheritance.

That thought is very true -- our spiritual journey starts with Passover. In the OT the Passover "feast" was a type pointing forward to the real Passover starting point of our spiritual journey. The real starting point, unlike the type, isn't a set date, but a personal experience. A personal experience of recognizing the meaning of the cross and what Christ did for us there, His blood on the doorposts of our souls -- breaking the bondage of sin, offering us forgiveness and release from the death sentence, and leading us on to grow and walk on the spiritual journey throughout the rest of our lives with HIM!



1 Cor. 5:7 For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:

Having experienced the reality of Christ our Passover, we, through the power of His Holy Spirit "cast out the old leaven" of malice and all manner of sin, and now partake of the sincerity and truth -- walking with our Savior and Lord, not just for a week, but for the rest of our lives.

The weekly Sabbath, while having several similarities with the ceremonial Sabbaths, stands apart from them in several ways.

1. It was part of God's creation -- a gift to mankind -- before sin even entered.

The ceremonial Sabbaths, as well as the jubilees, etc. were added much later in the history of humanity and all have to do with outlining the plan of salvation.

The 7th day Sabbath however stands apart as part of the Creation week, -- as a day set apart for mankind to fellowship with God their Creator in the days of their innocence.

True, it later also pointed back to liberation (Deut 5:15 when God freed them from bondage so they were free to worship Him) and forward to restoration and thus was in some ways incorporated with the "types".
Yet, the 7th day Sabbath also stands alone in way the ceremonial Sabbaths can not stand alone.

2. The 7th day Sabbath is part of God's law, written by God's own finger in the "10 words".

3. The 7th day Sabbath establishes the reason why God deserves our worship. Because He is the Creator!
He is our Creator, and the 7th day Sabbath, believed as it is introduced in Genesis is the bulwark against satan's deceptive evolutionary theories that removes man from His Creator.

Psalms 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Rev. 14:7 worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I believe we have transferred from the typical service, or worldly sanctuary, to the anti-typical service, or Heavenly Sanctuary. From what we learned from the typical service we are now able to follow what is happening in the anti-typical service by faith.

We need to remember that Christ told the Israelites that their temple was left to them desolate, so practicing that service now would actually be bondage.

I don’t see scripture saying that the Sabbath stand alone.

1- Number 28 and 29 shows the order of offerings. In this the Sabbath does not stand alone but on the daily sacrifices. And other sacrifices(monthly and the feasts) are done afterwards showing order and dependencies by which all points to various Christ works.

Just because the laws was given to Moses 2500 years after creation, doesn't mean that they weren't in existance. The plan was set before creation. Jesus was slain before creation.

I incorrectly said that the Weekly Sabbath is the lowest form of Sabbath. This is not true, it is the evening sacrifice (symbolically representing the cross and the actual time Jesus was sacrificed) that is the lowest form of Sabbath. In His continual work we all find and have any form of rest.

Here is the order of sacrifices listed in Number 28 and 29 :

-2 Daily continual offerings: Evening & morning sacrifices are the first sacrifices prepared in the day showing importance in rank and influence. Also all other sacrifices are laid NEXT to the daily showing that the daily is the center.

-the Sabbath sacrifice: comes next and is always based on the daily by placing it next to it.

-the monthly sacrifice: comes next in order and is also always based on the daily that needs to be place next to the daily. At times the first of the month is also a Sabbath day; thus the Sabbath needs to be offered BEFORE the monthly sacrifice.

-the different feasts sacrifices : comes next in order that is also always placed next to the daily. Only the feast of Trumpet coincide with the monthly sacrifice. Thus the daily needs to be done first, then the monthly, then the feast of trumpet. If that day is also a Sabbath day, then the Sabbath sacrifice always needs to be done BEFORE the monthly.

-all sacrifices are to be layed out next to the daily, and besides each other showing dependencies and their order. The daily is the most important one and all other are of equale value but set in an order.


2- Several scriptures including Ezekiel future prophecies lays out the Sabbaths(multiple weekly Sabbaths) with the new moons(multiple new moons) and the feasts(multiple feasts). These are all bunch together showing the weekly Sabbaths are not set apart from the other.



The Lord wanted to write His laws on the hearts of the Israelites not on stones. But they couldn't bear hearing His voice.

The Lord had not finished giving the law when the Israelites couldn’t bear anymore “And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”(Ex 20:19) There was more of the law to hear, but they couldn’t handle hearing any more for they were afraid to die. So they sent Moses to hear the rest and repeat these to them later on.

They only heard the 10Cs and the act of writing the 10Cs on Tablet of STONES was to symbolize that the Law was written OUTSIDE of their heart and perhaps to illustrate their stony heart condition. The 10Cs and all other laws given to Moses were place inside the Most Holy Place that symbolized our heart. That’s were all the Lord’s laws are really to be written and not on STONES.


I don’t think the Lord is concern about the evolutionary theories. He’s above all that and can disprove that if He wished at any time.

The 7th day Sabbath purpose and its meaning is not to prove He’s the Creator and that everyone should bow down before Him. Jesus said Himself that the Sabbath was created FOR MAN and not the other way around. To give man an “intermission” (H7676 Shabbath that is in the 10Cs and the main word used in all other laws) so man may “rest” (H7673 Shabath with one “b”) from his work. That’s what I read scripture saying to be the purpose and the meaning of the Sabbath. Ex 23:12 “Six days thou shalt do thy works, and on the 7th day thou shalt rest(H7673): …thine ox…ass…son…stranger…may be refreshed.”

God only set His creation work as a pattern of this principle for man’s purpose. Exodus 31:17 says “the Lord made heaven and earth and on the 7th day he rested(H7673) and was refreshed”. Now do you think the Lord needed to rest and needed to be refresh on the 7th day??? I don’t believe so, but He did “cease”[7673 the primary meaning of Shabath is to desist from our work or exertion ] His creation work on that 7th day so to set a pattern for man.

Scriptures clearly teaches that there’s not only the weekly 7th day that the Lord commanded man to cease their work. There are the 7 ceremonial Feasts days, the yearly Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath year.

So the question is are the Feast Days & Sabbaths still binding? These(including the weekly Sabbath) are all are types and shadows. Are we bound to keep these???

For sure a big YES we are bound to keep these spiritually which includes all their related sacrifices. I don't believe any of God's laws were nail to the cross. What was nail to the cross was the extra Jewish laws and all the precepts of man.

I do believe that the form to keep the Sabbaths, the new moons, the Feasts has changed and we are not to keep the literal types and shadows.

Concerning the 7th day Sabbath, I don't believe it is greater than any other Sabbaths or any of the feasts. I do know that man (still in the state of mortality) do need some literal time to cease(rest) from their work so they may be refreshed. But I don't know exactly how yet to apply these with the mind of christ.

Something else to consider, the Priests having access to the linen garment(=whom receive incorruptability, immortality) of Ezek 44-46 do not need to rest. Neither are these Priests included in the law of Jubilee. The Levites are mentioned but not the priests. So I see that any of the Sabbaths rest does not apply to them(Priests allow to serve in the Most Holy Place) because rest becomes obsolete to them. Their linen garments (=immortality) prevents them from sweating when they work. By "entering the promised land" they have entered in the Lord's rest.

Actually, in the types and shadows, the Priests work more on the weekly Sabbath than any other 6 days. These are all prophetic types that we need to include in our consideration to answer these questions scriptually.

So currently I am still trying to understand these and am looking forward to see how the Lord will apply all these Sabbaths types and shadows in the Millennium Age.

Don't forget:
Le 23:4 ¶ These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Le 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.....


Is the Sabbath the first feast? Or is Passover? Is the Sabbath a feast at all? That is, explain verse 4, why it is there. Nothing in verse 3 about offering or sacrifice. But when the feasts are listed, there is.


Does it? That's not what they said in the video. Were they wrong? When I do a search, I find it doesn't mean "appointed time", but can have a variety of meanings. Please explain.

(I'm not sure why you seem so absolute on these things when the post above you seemed to say that "feasts" are now a personal experience kept on a personal basis for each person according to their own mind....)

And that thought (which is quite common amongst those urging feast keeping) is probably the biggest reason that convinced me this "feast movement" has major problems.

The Creation Sabbath has deep meaning, far beyond the festivals which were added more than 2000 years later because people needed an object lesson to understand the plan of salvation.

Also, those who serve in the temple need the Sabbath just like everyone else. That's why they had 24 orders or divisions of priests. Each order was responsible for ministering during a different week and Sabbath. In this way the priests were able to rest on the majority of the 7th day Sabbath days of the year. Yet they all had to serve on festival sabbaths.

And they were not immortal --
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

Elle;
"So the question is are the Feast Days & Sabbaths still binding? These(including the weekly Sabbath) are all are types and shadows. Are we bound to keep these???

For sure a big YES we are bound to keep these spiritually which includes all their related sacrifices. I don't believe any of God's laws were nail to the cross. What was nail to the cross was the extra Jewish laws and all the precepts of man.

I do believe that the form to keep the Sabbaths, the new moons, the Feasts has changed and we are not to keep the literal types and shadows."
(bold emphasis mine)

What does keeping these practices and sacrifices and feasts spiritually mean?!?

I believe we can follow them by faith and live accordingly. Such as the Day of Atonement is present, we should live according to this very solemn time in earth's history.

Excellent post dedication.

I do believe though that spiritually speaking, we should understand the lessons of the typical service and live accordingly.

Amen! And that is what I'm seeing. You merge them together, diluting the Sabbath, and soon it means nothing. In Israel, they were coming away from paganism. But now I see some going toward paganism.

I see the whole movement to do away with the Sabbath. For example, does this mean what I think it does?
Especially taken together with the other thread about sunset and evening. Am I wrong here?

I've seen a feast promoter saying that the Sabbath doesn't begin at sunset, but at sunrise. But not sunrise, sometime before, in the "twilight" of the day. Whether evening twilight, or "dawn" twilight, there is no absolute definite time. It's all subjective to personal feeling of when the Sabbath starts and ends. No rush. No hurry. No burden. No specific demarcation of time. Just whenever you get around to it. They even went further and said "between the evenings" doesn't mean between the evening of the day before and the following day, 24 hours, but it means sometime at one's choosing in the morning until noon. Since the sun is starting to go down after its zenith, that's "evening". Instead of tithe being one tenth of your income and the Sabbath being the larger portion of one seventh of your time, they have reduced it to less than one fourteenth of your time....

What about circumcision? Was that an extra Jewish law or God's law? What about sacrifices?

Why did putting the book of the law in the side of the ark mean?
De 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Does "against thee" here relate to
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Well I'm not in the Judaiser "feast keeping" movement camp. They are still stuck in the OT view of keeping type and shadows. However, they have nailed to the cross the sacrificial laws as the other SDAs and Christians have done. I don't believe that any laws are nailed to the cross. The literal form of the sacrifices of killing animals have changed to its spiritual meaning and application in our lives as we progress in the path of the plan of salvation. All the instructions and requirements of these sacrifices still remain to be spiritually fulfilled in our body temple. It is still far from these to be fulfilled yet.

I do not advocate keeping the feasts types and shadows, unless you are doing it to get familiar with the law and to try to figure out what are the correspondant spiritual application. Then in that case, keeping the feast is a good exercise to learn. It is also good to keep some aspects of the literal feasts to teach our children as long as the spiritual meanings is the main emphasis and teaching.


As long as you consider all the other Sabbaths with the 7th weekly that the Lord has reveal in scriptures which the focuss is on the plan of salvation and do not blow out of proportion the creation part while ignoring all others. Don't miss out on the Lord's intended message.


Did the Lord instruct this 24 divisions in the law? If so, please provide text. I don't seem to recall that. If this is an Jewish addition to the law, then it has no place in this discussion trying to understand the type.

The thing we should always keep in mind is the law (Pentateuch) reveal a type and shadow. The fact the priests worked more on the Sabbath than any other week days reveal some truth. The fact the priests are not included in the law of Jubilee reveal another truth about the Sabbath. The fact the priests in the law and Ezekiel 44-46 have access to linen garments and do not sweat also reveal another truth about the Sabbath.


Hebrews 7:23 talks about the fallible priests doing the OT literal (type and shadow) services in the OT and compares them to Jesus. Of course those priests were immortal however their types and shadows ministry pointed to the sons of Zadok that Ezekiel 44-46 also points to.

Most Christians (and I think SDAs also) understand Ezekiel 44-46 is pointing to the time of the millennium. During the OT era, yes those priest performing those types and shadows were immortals, however the fulfillment of these after the millennium, these priests will be clothed with immortality. Eze 44(quoted below) says that the corrupt Levites have not access to the linen clothing -- only the sons of Zadok. Zadok means righteousness. The linen garment is the robe of righteousness of the Saints of the Most High. This robe is the immortal and incorruptible garment.

Verse Eze 44:18 says they(sons of Zadok) are not to wear a garment that causes them to sweat like the woolen(dead hair) garment that represents the mortal garment that causes us to SWEAT. After sin, the Lord said to Adam that he will sweat when he works. Mortal men needs to rest (shabath, cease from their work) and have an “intermission” (Shabbath) of time probably because they sweat the other 6 days of the week. When we will be clothed with our linen garment (incorruptible and immortality) we will no longer sweat when we work for the Lord. That’s maybe why, this is symbolized in the type and shadow as the Priests working more on the Sabbath than other days.

If your definition of "faith" is the same as Paul's (Rom 10:17 AV Ro 10:17 "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word[u]rhema, utterance] of God.") than you are saying the same things as me when I said that we are to keep the Feasts and the types and shadows of the laws (including the sacrifices) between our ears and inside our temple body. Meaning, whatever the Lord interprets these to be and tells us how to apply these from day to day and what to do at His appointed time -- by following His voice(instructions) we keep His feasts and sacrifices as He fufills them in us.



That's the type of question we should ask. Let's take Pentecost as an example. What does the law teaches about it? what is the sacrifice offered during that feast? Knowing these are types and shadows we need to try to figure out via other scriptures describing the symbolism and try to see the spiritual meanings of these. This would be a good exercise.

Would you like to start by listing the main things that the Law describes as Pentecost?

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What "ordinances" were nailed to the cross?

Forgive me for jumping in. The text is 1 Chronicles 24:19.

Tx for the text Rosangela. Please jump in anytime.

I see that this order was added by David before his death for the new temple. It was not in the law, nevertheless I believe it is also a type and shadow of the coming temple and ministry that Ezekiel talks about.

I don't see in this text any mentions of the purpose of this new order or it being linked to the Sabbath or for the purpose to give some rest to the priests as suggested by dedication. What dedication has said is filling in the gap with a personal interpretation. All we see is a new order with 24 priests. I don't know how many priests there were before hand before this new order. What this means prophetically I don't know but we do see this mirroring the 24 elders around God's throne found in Rev 4. I do know that numbers in the Bible also has meanings and perhaps 24 is the number for the priesthood.

Yet I do not believe this number is to be read literally and is most likely a symbolic representation of the priesthood like 144K is the number representing the overcomers. Twenty four and 144 are multiple of 12 that is shown to be the number representing the government of the kingdom of God.

("Twelve is the number of governmental perfection and divine authority. ... There were 12 sons of Jacob in the Old Testament and 12 apostles in the New Testament. There are 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). It also has 12 gates and 12 angels at the gates (Rev. 21:12) and 12 pearls at the gates (Rev. 21:21). The city is foursquare at 12,000 furlongs (Rev. 21:16). The wall is 144 cubits high (Rev. 21:17), which is 12 x 12. All of this is to portray the concept of divine government and order.")

I don't think this is saying that the law was nail to the cross, but instead the decree that was issued against us because we transgressed the law. The law is necessary for teaching purposes and to show us our sins and how far we are from the Lord's perfect righteousness.

Paul also said this about the cross : God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; (2col 5:18). I now see Col 2:14 saying what 2cor 5:18 says of not imputing our tresspasses by cancelling the charge or decree that was against us.

Here's many other translations that suggest this understanding:



To me doing away with any portion of the law makes no sense and goes contrary to what many other scriptures says. For an example Ezekiel 44 & 45 talks about sacrifices and offerings that will be done in the functions of the Zadok priesthood which is FUTUR. It also mentions about the feasts as being kept in the FUTUR.

So you believe the temple will be restored and sacrifices will be resumed in the future and that this is GOD'S will and plan to take place?

kland posted; "Especially taken together with the other thread about sunset and evening. Am I wrong here?"

What other thread?

That was originally posted by Elle I believe.

But anyway, my point about the spiritual nature is in the lessons the feast days teach. It's in the lessons the sacrifices and earthly sanctuary teach. Ellen White uses the term "Hebrew economy", we need to learn these lessons to understand what is genuinely happening in Heaven and to live accordingly.

And this is the point to me! These feasts that are to happen in the future are much like the Day of Atonement today! Those in the past were types, these now and in the future are anti-types, or authentic. God will keep these and some we will be present to witness and experience in the future after Christ's Second Coming.

Nope! This is believing in the literal fulfillment(or keeping) of the type and shadows. I said I believe in the spiritual fulfillment of the type and shadows of the laws. Our body is the Lord's temple and the application of the feasts and the sacrifices needs to be fulfilled in us.

It was never about circumcision of the flesh, it was never about the killing of lambs and bulls, it was never about cleansing a physical establishment made out of stones. These things always pointed to the plan of salvation performed in our body temple from DAY 1.

Blessings Elle, (no pun intended) I'm not sure I understand what you mean by these feasts being fulfilled spiritually in us? I believe we will be there for those after the Second Coming?

We can use Pentecost as an example. List me the type and shadow of the Law about it with whatever you understand from it.


??? Could you elaborate? In what way? Do you means before you go to heaven or after the millennium?

BTW I don't believe those from the 1st resurrection will go to heaven to live there. There's another discussion about this and there's no need to get into this here too heavily. But since Eze 44 & 45 pertain to this discutssion, it says they(priests of Zadok) will have the uncorruptible and immortal garment(symbol=linen) to minister to the Lord, but they will have another garment to minister to the people also. Basically they will have 2 sets of garments (one to minister to God and the other to minister to the people). Just like Jesus after His resurrection was able to be seen by men and eat as men while dissappear at will and going to heaven at will by putting on his linen garment.

Eze 44-46 is clear that the unfaithful Priests(not having access to linen garment), the people, and the Princes will still be around during the Millennium doing sacrifices during the feasts. Of course these(sacrifices & feasts) are symbolic and from the writings of Paul we know that it is the spritual form we are to keep.

I get confused what you believe. Sometimes it seems you are advocating keeping feasts. Then other times, you say spiritually. ?

The one titled, "When or What constitutes evening? "

How does one keep an anti-type "spiritually", what would that mean? Do you believe there will be sacrifices in the future, will they be literal or spiritual, if spiritual, what would that entail?

Yes I know. We’ve been to these crossroads before in the past couple of years.

I think this is because you still read the OT and the law LITERALLY and do not still see them as prophetic & spiritual types and shadows. I know this for myself as I struggle for many years despite I knew intellectually that this was how to read these, but yet I would mainly see the LETTER. We make a few obvious spiritual connection like the lamb represents Jesus and circumcision is of the heart and not the flesh and etc…; but beyond these, most Christians, SDAs and feasts keepers still only see the LETTER and still read & keep literally the types and shadows of their choosings. It’s not possible for the “natural man ” to understand spiritual things (1Co 2:14). We need the help of the teachings of the Spirit (1Jn 2:27) to go beyond the Passover of faith.

In the attempt to try to explain this one more time in another way, let us take the problem with the Woman ordination debates. Those against it use literally the type & shadow that were meant to be read symbolically. While others will use the other texts that show that woman can take these roles. While both sides uses scripture for their position, both want to wave off or ignore the other sides texts. The problem is neither side are right because both sides doesn't understand the meanings of the MALE and FEMALE symbolism employed in the Pentateuch and elsewhere in scriptures. Even the NT employs the symbolism language found in the OT by only talking about “SONS of God” and not one text express it as “daughters of God”.

There’s a symbolic reason why the type and shadow illustrate the MALE gender as “closer to God” and occupying ministering functions versus the FEMALE not. Basically the genders symbolically reflect position in terms of maturity in our ability to minister to another. This is symbolically shown in terms of reproduction function. The MALE gender can pass the “seed” while the FEMALE gender never can. The passing on the “seed” symbolically represents passing on the “Spirit” so we can begat “children of God”. A FEMALE symbolically represents a “soulish” person (who is an unbeliever or new convert) that can only receive the “seed”(Spirit). So all new converts (either male or female) starts symbolically as being as a FEMALE.

Once the believer (either male or female) becomes mature, only then they become spiritually MALE (symbolically) and can starts performing their Levirate’s duty of producing children for their eldest brother, Christ, who died childless. This is an example how the literal type and shadows of the Levirate law is being fulfilled in the spiritual realm in the Church today. Those who believe the Levirate duty is nail to the cross, has missed the whole point (intend) the Lord was trying to teach us via the Law.

This same principles applies to all Laws including the Feasts, sacrifices and all the Sabbaths.

Feasts represents spiritual maturity journey that start at Passover and finishes at Tabernacle. Passover is the spiritual birth when we get baptized thru water like it is with the physical birth as we come out from the water.

Pentecost is another spiritual birth but this time it is the baptism of fire where we learn to hear God's voice and obey it. It is the time the Holy Spirit teaches us the Lord’s laws and writes it on our heart tablet. This is what we call the sanctification process that readies us to enter the promise land.

the final spiritual journey is our walk thru the fall feasts that ends by living inside the Lord’s living house(represents garment of immortality). This was symbolized by building a tent(sukka) made with living branches that they “tabernacle” in those in celebration.

Ooops, mistake -- the usage of the word "birth" above is incorrect. It should read: "Pentecost is another spiritual baptism ...

In the NT, it teaches of two baptism : water and fire. The first is the baptism of water by which is symbolized by the Passover. The second is the baptism of fire that is symbolized by Pentecost.

Let's elaborate on the spiritual birth that happens at Passover to again try to show the difference between keeping the type and Shadow of the Feasts versus keeping the spiritual realm between "our ears". I would like to add some thoughts in brown to my description below


I said about Passover in page 3 the following :

The Literal Type of Passover happened corporatly with the nation of Israel. However the spiritual anti-type is being fulfill in any new converts that
......1)comes out of their "Egyptian mother"[bondage of sin],
......2)that applies the blood of Jesus on the two sides posts(our ears) and the lintels(our forehead) of their house[body temple],
......3)"our heart" gets circumcized, and
......4)we become baptized by water [=repentance or turning from our own ways by submitting to the Lord's will].
......5)there's other symbolism, but I think the above is enough for our purposes.

So anyone that says the Feast of Passover is nail to the cross, has missed the whole point. Nor yet do understand or see the intend of what the law teaches via the types and shadow. The same can be said of the feasts keepers that preaches that we must keep the types and shadows of the feasts at the specific "appointed time" arguing amongst themselves which calendar to go by, or day to start, and etc... They have equally missed the point the Lord is trying to teach us.

Every day Passover is being spiritually fulfilled on a INDIVIDUAL level whenever someone comes out of "Mama Egypt". The nation's of Israel's mother was Egypt. Egypt symbolizes the bondage of sin where we were kept captive until the Lord came to free us.

Passover is not nail to the cross and it is fulfilled in someone every day and will continue to be fulfilled again and again during and after the millenium. [Note : there is a SECOND PASSOVER (Num 9:6-14) also, which points to another spiritual & prophetic fulfillment.]

Nor are any other feasts nailed to the cross, or any of the other Sabbaths, or even any of the sacrificial services. The form of applying these "has changed", but not the law. The law was always a symbolic expression (a lauguage) of the Lord's mind that teaches us the prophetic and spiritual pattern of the plan of salvation that is being fulfilled in all of us.

I hope this helps to clarify things a little.

Blessings kland,

You wrote; "How does one keep an anti-type "spiritually", what would that mean? Do you believe there will be sacrifices in the future, will they be literal or spiritual, if spiritual, what would that entail?"

Spiritually means by faith. We know the judgment is going on in the Heavenly Sanctuary. We each need to be mindful that our own name will come up before the judgment. We must realize our need of our Savior and Advocate, Jesus Christ. We must also recognize how much needs to happen for us to be more like Jesus.

Yet, after the Second Coming, the redeemed will actually be present for what's left as far as Feast Days, such as the Feast of Tabernacles.

As far as sacrifices, Christ made the only sacrifice that matters once and for all. Blood sacrifices will never be practiced again after the close of probation.

I think all that clarified things a little. So what I see you saying is that there need be no arguing over which month or day is what as after Christ's death we keep the feasts every day spiritually. We need not determine barley ripeness, nor sighting of moons, nor how that all fits in a round world.

Yes, that's what I understand. Keep in mind that the feasts are both fulfilled individually and corporatly.

The corporate fulfillment of the Passover was fulfilled by His Church (the Israelites) when they got out of Egypt. However the "Israelite Church" did not fulfill the Pentecost. They could of for they were brought at the foothill of Sinai at Pentecost to receive the Lord, but they backed out and rejected hearing God because they were too afraid (Ex 20:19). Thus it was only fulfilled corporatly 2500 years later with the 120 in the upper room.

The feast Type and Shadow show us spiritual development level. So the spiritual level of the Church was just a kid when they got out of Egypt. The Church only became mature enough to enter the next development stage (teenage years to young adult)to receive the teaching's of the Holy Spirit in 33 AD.

Tabernacle(to be clothed with immortality) has not been fulfilled corporatly or individually yet. This spiritual level of maturity is to enter the Priesthood ministry where we will be crown to rule over nations with Jesus.

Besides the spiritual fulfillment(corporately or individually) of the feasts that are yet to be fulfilled, we also need to watch the feasts appointed times to watch what the Lord is doing in the world from year to year.

Besides the feasts, there's other appointed time to watch that are on different cycle. Here's an example where we have Jonathan Cahn who noticed that the Lord keeps the 7th year cycle. Jonathan calls it the "shmitah" but I don't think this word is found in the Bible. I think it's some word he or rabbis names this 7th year cycle. Nor do I agree with Cahn understanding of the 7th year rest. Novertheless, I do agree with his overvation that at every 7th year some economic or other major event took place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8B14NSIWc8

This shows that the Lord still keep watch of the 7th year Sabbath as He does with many other "appointed times".

Wait. How did you move from spiritually to literally? Because you just had said:

I understand things are confusing and hard to grab. This is quite foreign for us. Also, it is a complicated subject. If you are interested to understand more about time and how the Lord applied the law to correct nation; I would recommend reading Secrets of Time by Stephen Jones. You may not agree with all his views, however if you can by-pass that and only focuss on his biblical studies about "curse" time found with the history of nations speaks for itself -- seeing that the Lord keeps these diverse cycles to judge a nation or an individual.

Concerning appointed times, there are many : daily, weekly, monthly, Start of year(in the fall and other calendars), 7th years, End of 49th year, 50th year, Feasts time, and all other cycles based on diverse numbers that holds a meaning. For example 210 days or years cycle denotes time of trouble, 40 (in days or years or Jubilees) denotes trials or probation. We see the Lord putting nations or individuals under these time cycle(210, 40 and many more).

The Lord is not limited with only a few dates, feasts time, or a certain calendar. Whatever cycle He uses today to make events happens (by small strides at time, but repeatedly until it culminates to the full fulfillment).... He has pre-defined these cycle in the law or with the Prophets in some fashion.

Each year there are a number of events that the Lord fulfills(or partially fulfills) based on different "appointed times" cycles. To know which ones He is currently working on requires "ears to hear". He does want us to develop an ear to hear and eyes to see so to behold what He's doing as He's doing it. The main reason is so we learn how He applies His laws and come to know how He works.

Yes there are many appointed times, but what happens during those time cycle is not literal fulfillment or application of the law as most people expect, but spiritual application(the intend of the law).

O.K. -- so you are saying we are to "keep" the feasts, sacrifices, and the 7th day Sabbath SPIRITUALLY, not literally.
In other words we are not to keep them, just spiritualize their meaning, and seek some hidden meaning?

Now the temple feasts and sacrifices all pointed to Christ's work as our sacrifice, our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, and our Redeemer. We no longer look to the shadows (except to learn from them) we now look to reality which is Christ.

The 7th day Sabbath is part of God's moral law. It's meaning is not just some shadow of the future -- it represents communion with our Creator and Redeemer, in the past, in the present and in the future.


Does God care about what we believe about our origins? You wrote that God wasn't worried about evolution, as if it was no big deal if people believed in evolution or creation?

God is GOD, and we are His creation. It IS important for us to understand that!

Is it true that the only literal thing you see in the Sabbath is that we need time for "physical refreshment" but it's not a literal time that has been blessed, sanctified, set apart for special communion with our Creator. In other words, it seems you do not think the 7th day Sabbath needs to be a literal 7th day set apart from other days for worship? That its literal aspects need to be "spiritualized" away. Is that your view?

Evolution IS a big heresy.
It's not God who is personally threatened by it, He knows how utterly dependant we are upon Him for the very breath of life, as well as salvation.
It is the people who are being deceived by it.
It is a great delusion that will rob multitudes of eternal life, because it severs the created from their Creator.
It teaches that people are naturally maturing to greater levels of spiritual maturity -- superior human existence, they don't need God as their Redeemer and Savior.

Believers in evolution don't need a soon coming Savior to take them out of this sinful world, to heaven, for they believe mankind is advancing through pain and suffering into a superior level of existence via evolution.


The last warning message to the world is --

WOSHIP HIM WHO MADE... EVERYTHING... fear God and give Him glory (See Rev. 14:7)
The saints are those who with patient endurance keep the law of God and the faith of Jesus. (See Rev. 14:12)

Sorry Elle for the long delay in answering you! I just missed this post until now.

As far as the timing of feast days in the future, the Feast of Tabernacles is mentioned in Zech. 14:16, 19. The Bible does say year after year, which still surprises me a little.

quoting:
" Shall we not gather our forces together, and come up to the feast of tabernacles? Let us not treat this matter as one of little importance... Let no one plead an excuse at such a time. One of the reasons why we have appointed the camp-meeting ... is that we desire the people of that vicinity to become acquainted with our doctrines and works..... Therefore come to the camp-meeting, even though you have to make a sacrifice to do so, and the Lord will bless your efforts to honour his cause and advance his work. {EGW in Bible Echo, December 8, 1893 par. 5}

And some will only quote the first sentence, stopping after "come up to the feast of tabernacles", insisting Ellen White kept and promoted the feast days of the Jews. So dishonest! I find dishonesty seems to be their main theme they live by.

Excellent post dedication.

I believe there's other texts like this one quoted below that clearly states to observe moons, Sabbaths(weekly, yearly, & Jubilee year Sabbaths), feasts with sacrifices on a on-going basis after Jesus 2nd coming.



Ezekiel chap 44-48 is the important prophesy describing what will take place after Jesus 2nd coming (during the millenium) were the Lord command the people and the princes to keep the passover and the feast of Tabernacle PLUS to bring our burnt offerings, meat offerings, drink offerings at the New moons, Sabbaths(all weekly Sabbaths), and the Feasts.

On top of it notice that the Lord instituted a new feast (1st day of the first month -- Ezk 45:18) to mark this new era and new event.

Of course, the prophesy is given in the same symbology language used in the OT -- meaning we will keep(apply) their spiritual and prophetic meanings. We won't revert back to the killing of lambs, bulls but we will be expected to carry out their legal requirements that these sacrifices describes. All different sacrifices(burnt, meat, drink, peace, sin, etc...) describe different legal aspect in bringing us to reconciliation with the Lord.

It is true that Jesus fulfilled all these sacrifices at His 1st coming, but He was our example and showed us the path how to become "Sons of God". The path Jesus took is described in the feasts and the sacrifices. Meaning more importantly, all these sacrifices needs to be fulfilled in us also.

Jesus fulfilled all these sacrifices, but they are not yet all fullfilled in us. Thus that's why these feasts and sacrifices still stand today and will stand tomorrow for they prophecy (point to) the work that Jesus still has to do in fulfilling all these legal requirements in all of us, so to bring us all into full mature "Sons of God".

Elle wrote; "Ezekiel chap 44-48 is the important prophesy describing what will take place after Jesus 2nd coming (during the millenium) were the Lord command the people and the princes to keep the passover and the feast of Tabernacle PLUS to bring our burnt offerings, meat offerings, drink offerings at the New moons, Sabbaths(all weekly Sabbaths), and the Feasts."

I will need to spend more time in those chapters of Ezekiel. I am surprised you didn't quote Isaiah 66.

Yet, there aren't any feast days to keep in this life now though. Right?

When Jesus comes the 2nd time it is not to establish a millennium on this earth.

Jesus told us:
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not true, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Where did Jesus go?

Acts 1:11 this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He returned to His Father Who is in heaven.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Matt. 23:9 And call no one your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

When Jesus comes the second time He will raise the dead and the resurrected with the living saints will meet Christ in the air and He takes them all together to the Father's house in heaven.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



The many mansions or rooms that Jesus is preparing for His redeemed are in the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem does not come to earth until AFTER the millennium. (See Rev. 21-22)

Legal requirements? Spiritual legal requirements? That will be interesting to find out what you mean by that.

As asked elsewhere, but stating it briefly, killing and eating the passover, how can that be done without killing and eating it?

What does the following mean to you?

I have found her answer appears to vary from post to post.

Dedication, we(you and I) have already discussed about this subject in the 2nd Coming, Judgment, and the 1000 years topic. If you want to revisit these texts again, we can do so in the appropriate topic and not side-track this discussion.

The pertaining question to this discussion is what (or when) do you view Ezekiel 44-48 is talking about? Many SDAs and other Christians view it as this prophesy is talking about the Millenium.

Whenever Ezekiel 44-48 is fulfilled (I believe sometime in the futur), it says that we will keep the feasts and sacrifices. So let's examine when and ponder why the Lord is saying we will keep the feasts and sacrifice then.

Can you give me time to write an example of what I mean with legal requirement described in the peace sacrifice as an example. It's a study that I undertood a year ago, but haven't finished it. Anyway, I can give you a brief of what I got.


If you need to kill a lamb to be justify then why did Jesus have to die? And if Jesus is the lamb, then did you eat His flesh to be justify? Did you smear His blood on the lintel and posts of your house? How are you justify without doing these LITERALLY?


I don't know the full context of this text, but it seems Ellen is comparing the RCC weekly sacramental service (eating His flesh and drinking His blood) versus us doing it daily?? I don't see this quote relating to this subject.

So if not literal, then not literal days, either.

Whaaa?

Please explain how RCC enters into this.

You don't? That would explain things. I see her talking directly and specifically about the feast days.

Here's the previous paragraph if that helps you.
What "ancient Jewish obligations in rites and ceremonies" did possess virtue, but no longer does possess virtue, were no longer of any force due to the gospel, that they had engaged in as essential, that would be an insult to Jehovah to continue them, and of which, the ordinance of humility took the place of?

Most SDA's believe the millennium is in heaven, so with you saying it's on earth, this might not fit well.

If, if, if, Ezekiel 44- is regarding only the millennium and not what could have been in Israel's day had they not apostatized, then there are some things we can look forward to.

Such as, Ez 44:31, there will be dead animals, more than just the sacrifices, but that die naturally or are torn by wild beasts.

45, the land will be divided, but you probably do believe that.

47, there will be deserts, salt water swamps and marshes. And people will catch fish in nets.


Sounds more like the Jehovah Witness view of the mellennium.

The discussion here is about if the feasts are still binding. It is not about the millenium in heaven or on earth. There is another discussion about this and I will be more than happy to study this subject some more in the other discussion.

Ezk 44-48 is a futur prophesy that talks about keeping the feasts and sacrifices.

Are you saying that Ezk 44-48 is not a valid prophesy?

I'm saying it's not about the future millennium. You said it was talking about the millennium, but I was trying to show it wasn't, that it couldn't be. It's talking about what could have been if Israel had obeyed. But the prophesy is not voided, just not fulfilled literally as it could have been back in ancient Israel's day. Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. To keep a literal Passover day would be an insult to Him.

So you believe prophesies are conditional?

Well yes, of course.

De 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
De 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
...
De 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Deut 28 does not support your theory that prophecies are conditional. Deut 28 is a law where the Lord tells us He will bless us when we obey, and how He will correct us when we disobey.

Your point makes no sense for Ezekiel's prophesy was given AFTER Israel had already failed and was deported???

Also, if you continue reading in Deut 30 & 31 & 32 the Lord plainly tells them that He KNOWS ahead of time that Israel would fail before they set foot in Canaan. He said that the blessings and the curses of Deut 28 will come to pass. (Remember, all the laws are prophetic)

AV Dt 30:1 . And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

The first underline part, the Lord is saying that all of Deut 28 will come to pass. The 2nd underline part refers to the futur when they will be cast out of their land, taken in captivity, and dispersed amoungst the nations as Deut 28 says it would and this will come to their mind.

Also Deut 31:16 The Lord tells Moses that the people will disobey Him after Moses dies and soon after they enter the land. This is not an IF or think it's a possibility, the Lord says it will happen because He knows the Furtur.

AV Dt 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Even the Lord instructed Moses to teach them a song about how they will disobey Him and receive all the Deut 28 laws of disobedience.

AV Dt 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. 20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Read the song in Deut 32 that is a witness against Israel and us Christians today that are still under the captivity prophesied in Deut 28 because of our continuous disobedience.

I hope you will come to reconsider that all prophecies are not conditional and see the pertinence of the Feasts and sacrifices and other laws in your life today. Blessings

Well I picked one I thought was well known. Could pick others. Are you saying a promise of blessing is not a prophecy?

The rest sounds like you agree with MM that we are predestined and have no choice in the matter. I disagree. God understands all possibilities but does not dictate them. Prophecies are dependent and conditional upon obedience.

Deut 28 did not prove in any way that prophecies are conditional. Show me other scriptures that really proves what you believe. I don't believe you have any for I haven't seen any. All you can show is some scriptures that shows man has a choice.

Having choices doesn't prove that prophecies are conditional. Man's choices are always very limited with his circumstances and always depends on the current events which often brings a change in man's choices. It is the Lord that controls the events, thus in that way He controls and limits man's choices.

Then scriptures says no one can resist the Lord's plan(boulema)(Rom 9:19). Not Pharaoh or no other man can. They may resist the Lord's will(thelema = commandment) but at the end, the Lord's plan(boulema = prophecies) will always be fulfilled.


All of Deut 28 is prophecy : the blessings and the curses. As soon as Israel entered Canaan, the Lord executed the curses of Deut 28 by selling off Israel to foreign nations. Israel was made the "tail" to other nations -- meaning the Lord put Israel into captivities to other nations 6 times. After that, the Lord executed the blessings of Deut 28 with the rule of David and Solomon making Israel "head" of other nations. Then Israel entered again into disobedience under the rule of Jeroboam and other kings and the Lord brought them the 7th captivity and the IRON YOKE(destruction, deportation, etc..) as told in Deut 28.

So we see in the history of Israel the fulfillment of Deut 28:
-6 softer curses as soon they entered Canaan,
-the blessings under the rule of David and Solomon, and
-2 iron yoke curses via the Assyrians for Israel and via Babylon for Judah.

I do not know what MM says on this subject, but I do see scripture supporting presdestination and a Sovereign Lord :
AV Eph 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"


Well that's not what Eph 1:11 (all things work according to God's will) and other scriptures says like Rom 9:19(no one can resist God's plan) and so many other scriptures that says man's choices are in the Lord's hands. To me all these texts disagree with what you are saying. Do show me any significant texts that can prove of what your are saying.


We're getting off topic here. If you want to continue persuing this topic of predestination and choices then let's start a new discussion or continue an old.


We got deviated because

-My Point : Ezekiel 44-48 (which is futur) shows feasts and sacrifices keeping; thus Feasts and sacrifice still relevant.

-Your objection: Ezkiel 44-48 was conditional ....THUS that prophecy is not valid because Israel had failed.

-Your objection MAKES NO SENCE : because both Israel and Judah had already failed and were already deported BEFORE that prophecies was given.

Since your point makes no sense, then my point still stand.

Shall I just merely say your point makes no "sence" so "then my point still stand"?

I don't think so.


What is "prophecy" to you?

What would need to be presented showing that such "prophecy" is "conditional"?

That is not correct.
True, Ezekiel prophesied during Babylonian captivity. However, there was a restoration with a lot of wonderful promises covering another 490 year period when these promises could have been fulfilled. (See Daniel 9 and Jeremiah 25:11-12; 2 Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-2)

Prophecies of Israel were conditional.

Isaiah 1:19 If you be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
1:20 But if you refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword:

.

Agree!
Ezekiel was talking about a temple THAT COULD HAVE BEEN (should have been) after the Babylonian captivity when the returning remnant of Israel was given 490 years to prepare themselves and the world for the first advent of Messiah.
Daniel 9 tells us Messiah would come 483 years after Jerusalem was again authorized and built as Israel's capital.

And he did come at the appointed time. However the temple for which Ezekiel had given them the pattern was not there -- instead there was the temple built by Herod the Edomite. It was still God's house for Herod had refurbished and embellished the original simple temple built by the returned exiles 480 some years earlier, but it was not the temple God had given them the pattern for, through Ezekiel.

Of course God knew the future, but He also continually revealed what He really wanted for Israel -- if only they would have been willing and obedient.

Yes, willingness and understanding how to keep His commanments. It seem eay to hide ourselves because we are far away from certain problems.

It takes patience - and endurance. Praying for progress, even if it seems slow in being fulfilled.

Just wondering how your comments fit in the flow of the conversation.
Do you believe Ezekiel's temple will yet be built over in Jerusalem?
Or are you referring to something earlier in the discussion?

No, I was going back to the original question

Yes, I was coming back to say that what Elle suggests is not true.

Of course both Israel and Judah had already failed. They failed multiple times. But in Ezekiel, that was prophesied in the 570's. BC! Jerusalem wasn't left desolate until 70 AD! They failed one final time.

So why Elle was saying it means something to our future rather than their future, that definitely makes no SENSE.


Without knowing how she defines prophecy, there's other places showing it's conditional.

Jer 18:7 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Then there's Jonah.

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

But in 40 days Nineveh was not destroyed because they repented. Jonah even expected it or at least worried they might and the Lord relent. So shall we pluck up that 40 days out of context and insert it into the future at a time period of our choosing?

Yet 40 days and something will happen in the U.S.
It's 'biblical', you know.

Blessings kland,

You wrote; "Of course both Israel and Judah had already failed. They failed multiple times. But in Ezekiel, that was prophesied in the 570's. BC! Jerusalem wasn't left desolate until 70 AD! They failed one final time." (bold emphasis mine)

When Jesus made that statement in Matthew 23 it was 31 AD. Other than that your post was good, some prophecies are conditional.

Guess the question would be was Jerusalem left desolate in 31 AD or 70 AD. I looked at it as being 'desolate' in 70, but it was 'left' in 31 AD.

(I had thought it was something like 33 AD?)

Jerusalem, as a nation wasn't left desolate in 31 AD. The temple services had expired then, but the nation's probation still lingered.

After all -- the apostles were commissioned to preach FIRST to the Jews. Why? Because a lot of the people didn't understand the Messiah's mission and as Peter and the other apostles explained comparing scripture with Christ's life, thousands of Jews and even quite a number of Pharisees believed and were baptized. (Read Acts chapters 1-4) Multitudes believed!

34 AD we see the leadership in Jerusalem fully committing themselves to exterminate the Christian Jews. This marks the beginning of their end. The stoning of Stephen after his strong appeal to them is a key point in time. The Jewish leaders authorized the death of many and most of the rest of the Jewish Christians fled out to other places, till only a few were left in Jerusalem. Yet the apostles still had their "headquarters" in Jerusalem even as late as 50 AD and beyond.

When the Romans first besieged Jerusalem in 66 AD and then withdrew for a short time, it was a sign for all Christians to flee Jerusalem. No Christian Jews perished when the city fell in 70 AD.


(See DA 630)

Aren't we going way off topic since page 8? I would like to comment, but in apropriate discussion as what I will say will probably add a few more pages.

Well, if we are going off topic it is because you said,

"We got deviated because

-My Point : Ezekiel 44-48 (which is futur) shows feasts and sacrifices keeping; thus Feasts and sacrifice still relevant.

-Your objection: Ezkiel 44-48 was conditional ....THUS that prophecy is not valid because Israel had failed.

-Your objection MAKES NO SENCE : because both Israel and Judah had already failed and were already deported BEFORE that prophecies was given. dunno

Since your point makes no sense, then my point still stand.
"

Which I objected to. Which then we showed how what you attempted to say simply was not true.

Either Ez 44-48 is your point or it is not. If it IS your point, it has been shown to be invalid. It may not be wise to pull a Green on us by saying it's off topic when people object to your point.

Often discussion go off topic to clarify an issue. That's just normal. If the "off topic" cannot be resolve in a page or two, than it's better to start another topic and resolve that question under an appropriate discussion title. Let's give respect to Daryl and the moderators by being responsible to do what is right and avoiding them to do a bunch of work to transfer pages of posts to another topic. I'm willing to continue this off topic in another appropriate topic.



I have made many other points in this discussion. It was Alchemy who brought up futur prophecies in relation to feasts:

He was surprised I mentioned Ez 44-48 and not Isa 66. But there's other prophecies that talk about the feast in a futuristic manner.

But this treating prophecies as conditional is the same mentality as seeing the laws as irrelenat and nailing them to the cross. I see this as Man setting himself up to be able to pick and choose which one he wants to believe or keep. That's typical and always has been so. I personally don't believe in cherry picking the "Word of God" whether in the laws or in prophecies. But that's is my personal conviction.

So to discuss about if prophecies are conditional or not is clearly going to take many pages of discussion to resolve this.

I'm not pulling a "green"(whatever that means) on you. I'm just realistic knowing we are going into pages of posts. I do have much scriptures to cover to address this off topic question.

So what topic would you like to start which talks about the invalid future application of the past conditional prophecy of Ez 40-48 relating to feast days still binding at present day?

I have opened another discussion to study whether scripture support the notion that prophecies are conditional or not.

I was hoping someone else would open up the discussion as I am the best one to give titles.

I gave it the title Are Prophecies conditional? Does Man's failure or choices annuls prophecies?

Looks like Elle hasn't addressed the discrepancy between literal and spiritual and how she switches from one to the other without explaining why that's valid.

(bold emphasis mine)

I do agree that the service of the Heavenly Sanctuary helps us in recognizing what time we are in. I haven't noticed that the Sabbaths associated with the sanctuary were particularly important in this regard.

For instance; in SpM 2.1, Sister White mentions that during the plagues, meaning the seven last plagues, the Scapegoat, who is Satan is being led away by the Fit Man, who is Christ. Even though the Day of Atonement was kept as a solemn Sabbath in the days of Israel, we don't keep it like a Sabbath because it has lasted over 170 years. (GC 485)

So, can you explain to me what I am missing?

I think he was meaning they are prophetic guidelines. Not really sure of your question.

She must be busy on another thread.

John 6:52 "Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" 53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

…Kland have you ate the literal flesh of Jesus and drank His literal blood?

He must also be busy on other threads.

Elle, is that even a relevant question? Is that quote dealing with switching between literal and spiritual?

2 Corinthians 3:12" Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not as Moses, who used to put a veil over his face that the sons of Israel might not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2 Corinthians 3.12 refers to seeing Jesus the Messiah in scripture. It's not talking about all manner of possibilities of transforming clear words into something mystical.

Actually the text shows that the old system was fading away under the light of the reality of Jesus. The symbolic rituals that pointed forward to Christ, fade away under the reality that is Jesus Christ.

Moses put a veil over his face because it was REFLECTING the glory of God and frightening the people. (Ex. 34:29-34) But that reflective glory soon faded. Yet Christ, who is "God with us" (Matt. 1:23)was here. His glory is NOT reflected glory, it is the reality!

It was never God’s intention that people read the same passages of scripture and come away with different ideas about what it is saying. God wants us all to be likeminded about His Word.

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

But if it's true that God speaks in "dark speeches and riddles" as Elle suggests -- how could there ever be any unity?

It's not God's fault that there is so much disunion.
He gave us scripture to be a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path. (Ps 119:105)

One of the major reasons why people have different ideas concerning what the Bible says is that they use different rules or standards for interpreting it.
There are key principles which are essential to understand and apply if there is to be any hope of Christians getting to the truth when they read the Bible.
To throw it wide open to spiritualizing anything and everything in scripture, well -- anything and everything will be touted as truth with utter departure from truth.

1. RULE ONE interpretation varies according to the literary form of the text involved.

The Bible has many different literary forms -- like historical accounts (such and such happened to so and so), there are lists, genealogies, sermons, prayers, parables, prophecies, commands, allegories, etc.
It's one thing to find the "hidden meaning" in a parable, or allegory, but we DO NOT use that same form of interpretation for historical accounts and commands.
Finding the PRINCIPLE being taught behind an historical account or command, is very different from trying to spiritualize it. A principle is intrinsically tied with the event or command, not some mystical other realm of thought.

2. Symbols --
The Bible abounds in parables, symbolic representations and figures of speech. However, that does not automatically make everything in scripture a riddle or "figure of speech".

The literal principle of interpretation, is that no mystical or hidden meaning should be attached to the words, but that they should be taken in their most obvious sense.


The Sabbath commandment is NOT a figure of speech. It is a literal command to cease from work on the seventh day, for it is holy time, sanctified and blessed by God -- for mankind. (Gen. 2:1-3, Ex. 20 8-11, Mark 2:27-28)
Any further applications that are made for this command, do NOT negate the very literal, practical reality of the command itself.

Creation is NOT an allegory, it is literal "morning and evening is the first day" etc. Many people have spiritualized away the whole historical content of the book of Genesis -- going farther and farther from truth.

When scripture uses symbols it should be obvious --

When Jesus referred to Himself as the "bread of life" (John 6:35) any sane person recognizes that as a "figure of speech", for Jesus is saying LIKE food is crucial to physical life, a persons vital relationship with Him is crucial to eternal life.

AMEN!

All about Jesus-- not only Him as a Messiah(the anointed one), but His work of Justification(=Passover), His work of sanctification(=Pentecost), His work of Intercession(=Priesthood), His work of Atonement-Redemption(=law of Jubilee), His work of Rulership&Judgment(=Priesthood), His Laws in His government, His right to rule and establish His laws on earth, His right to forgive & show mercy(=law of Jubilee and other laws), etc…

This is what Moses has written about which reveals Jesus in all its truths, ways, and His works.

Hmmmm…..You mean “spiritual” right! I never use the word “mystical”.

Dedication, it is not I who said the following :

a) “the law[Torah] is Spiritual; but I am carnal”. Rom 7:14

b)but the Lord Himself who said He speaks in “dark Speeches”(Num 12:8 = in riddles to be solve).

c)that the old Covenant or law was Types and Shadows.(Col 2:17; Heb 8:5; 10:1) of things to come;

d)that these(the law) were teaching tools until the appointed time came.(Gal 4:2-4, 1Cor 3:1-2)

e)It is not I who created the language gap between the Lord who it Spiritual and Man who is “earthy”(1Cor 15:47-49) aka “carnal”(Rom 7:14; 1Cor 3:1-3) aka “soulish aka natural man”(1Cor 2:14).

f)It is not I but Jesus who spoke always in parable(symbolic language using familiar things like He did in the Law) to the crowd who were just “babes”.


Yes, I always said the same thing – the old system was written in Symbolic language (Types & Shadows). Yes these fades away as we come closer to behold the glory of Lord.

In the pass, the Lord required the “Passover Level of faith Church” :

-who were the Israelites under the old Covenant who where just “babes” who didn’t yet receive the Holy Spirit (Ex 20:19) who couldn’t understand mature spiritual things yet(1Cor 2:14)]

-to keep these types & shadows (who were "elemental" things that taught them some dimension of truth fitted for their level of faith) Gal 4:1-9

-that would teach them some glimpse of spiritual dimension.

This is exactly the context of the quote you are disputing that Paul started in verse 1 by saying AV 1C 3:1 “ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.”

Paul couldn’t speak in “spiritual” language to those that were still only “babes in Christ”. Paul had to use “carnal” language fitting to their level … like the Type & Shadows are design to be. This “elemental”(term used in Gal 4) language meet the “babes in Christ” in their level of understanding. Paul refers to this again in Heb 9: AV 10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.”

The time of reformation (= appointed time in Gal 4) has come when the Church moved up to the next level of Faith, the “Pentecost Level of faith”, when they received the Holy Spirit. Now, having grown into a “teenager” level of faith, the Holy Spirit can teach us more mature stuff -- what these Type and Shadow of the Law meant and what spiritual realm these points to and how to apply them in the Lord’s Kingdom in His Spirit.

In summary – when they (the Church) were Babes the Types and Shadows of the Law was their teacher. Now the Church have grown into the Pentecost level, they are now under the NEW TEACHER and new governor(=Holy Spirit Gal 4:2).

Conclusion - Now that we have grown into the Pentecost level of faith, we do not need to play with "elemental" things (keep the Types & Shadows) with was our Old Teacher that only can teach us basic elemental things(Gal 4:1-9).

I agree the people were afraid – afraid of what? Afraid to have their flesh die. The veils represents the flesh that needs to be torn = die.

There were 3 veils in the temple. This shows us the 3 levels of faith an individual has to go thru where a veil has to be torn at each level to enter the next. Everyone is afraid to have their flesh torn and die to pass thru the next level. That’s the fear the Israelites had when they saw the glory of God shine in Moses face.

Moses had passed thru the 3rd veil (Tabernacle Level of Faith) and the glory he beheld and reflected in his face was way too much for anyone who had only recently passed thru the 1st veil (Passover Level of Faith).

We see this when the Israelites were facing the 2nd veil by which it was too soon and were incapable of passing thru it(=Pentecost Level of faith). They were afraid there also (Ex 20:20) to have their flesh die then when they heard the Lord’s voice for themselves. So they expressed it by saying “don’t let God speak to us, lest we die”(Ex 20:19).

To summarize -- Each of these 3 veils involve a death of the flesh in an increasing way. And at each death(tearing of the veil) and entering to the next compartment -- the glory of God shines brighter upon us.

These veils hide God's glory and protect those who are not yet ready to see Him as He is.

The above might appear to some as if I have nailed the Feasts or the ceremonial sacrifices to the cross; but I haven't. What I'm saying above is the Law was written in types and shadows and was the teacher for Israel when they were "babes" and still didn't have the Holy Spirit to teach them spiritual things.

The spiritual application of the Law that it points to were always in existance since the Creation of Man till today.

It is true that Jesus was the "Anti-type" of many of the laws but we are the BODY of Christ and we are to follow His steps to the cross too and become “living sacrifices” as He was and “die” too. Paul even said we are to “die” daily.

So the fulfillment of the laws doesn’t stop with Jesus. What was fulfilled by Jesus was the fulfillment of the HEAD part.

The fulfillment of the sacrificial laws needs to be also fulfilled in His BODY part too --- which is US His Church -- The “anti-type” of what all the sacrificial services is pointing to still needs to be fulfilled in US.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, who accepts Jesus(=circumcised), gets out of “Mama Egypt”(=bondage of sin), and are baptized(=dies), is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Passover.

---->Every time someone since Adams till today, who listen to the Holy Spirit and receives His teachings and gets the law written on his HEART instead of having it outside on STONES is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Pentecost.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, overcome and cease their own works, is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Tabernacle.

No, I meant mystical.

There is the literal commands on how to keep the feasts.
There are spiritual applications drawn from activities of the feasts.
Then there is mystical interpretation -- saying all the laws for feast keeping are still binding, we are to keep the feasts, but not actually.

The thing is -- those laws were very specific and very literal.
Those laws are NO longer binding.
Now we do draw many spiritual lessons which increases our understanding of what Christ has done, as well as spiritual lessons for our lives. BUT THAT IS NOT keeping the feasts according to command given scripture.

To say we are to keep the feasts, and that the laws for the feasts are still binding, but we need NOT follow the actual commands or actually keep the feasts, is getting into some very mystical interpretations.

The straightforward message:
--We no longer need to observe the feasts; their laws are no longer binding.
--We do need to study them and find the spiritual meanings they were pointing too and apply that to our lives.


The danger of mystical interpretations-- will they do the same with 7th day Sabbath?
The Seventh day Sabbath has a very literal command
The seventh day Sabbath also has spiritual lessons.

Now the mystical interpretation says: Yes the Sabbath law is still binding, but just throw out the literal 7th day Sabbath and say you are keeping the Sabbath because you understand the spiritual applications.

The spiritual interpretation: Yes, the Sabbath law is still binding. Set apart the whole day Saturday, from Friday sunset, to Saturday sunset. And remember to reflect on the spiritual applications as well.

The one with it's mystical interpretation has just done away with the Sabbath.

I agree and it was necessary to teach babes in such ways because they couldn’t understand spiritual things.(Gal 4:1-9, 1Cor 3:1; Heb 8:5; 9:10; 10:1; Col 2:17; etc… )

It’s ironic that we, as SDAs supposively are LAW ABIDING believers, say such thing. Which is totally contrary to what Jesus said : AV Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

My understanding from the fullfillment of the cross and Pentecost, Jesus is NOT fulfilling the LITTERAL aspect of the LAW, but the Spiritual aspect these points to. Also, LAW here is not the 10Cs but the TORAH.

For sure, now that the Corporate Church have grown and went beyond the Passover level of faith and entered the Pentecost level of faith and received the Holy Spirit as our New Teacher(Gal 4:2-4), we should seek to understand beyond the LETTER (literal types and shadows). But their spiritual meaning(what Jesus meant with them at the first place) that these point to.

The Spiritual application of these that Jesus has been busy fulfilling -- is still binding. Was binding since Adam and will remain binding until all creation is subjected and put under the feet of Jesus. The law(Torah) will not pass until all is fulfilled.


I agree we are not obligated to keep the types and shadows – the LITTERAL form that the law was given in.


I agree to the above except the bolded and underlined section.

Concerning your second point, the reality is, we do not study them(or hardly) for we say they are not important or relevant to our lives anymore. Those that does, most only read and understand the LETTER of it and do not understand the SPIRIT of it. If I were to put you on the spot(but won't), I bet you wouldn’t even come close to explain the meaning of Pentecost or the 8 day feasts of Tabernacle. Most have no clue of their meanings or the meaning of other basic laws. Because, like the Jews, they only see the LETTER of the Law.


I will acknowledge that my English and communication skills are lacking. But I think with the number of examples I have given by using and linking to common NT concept and texts – it was far from being “mystical”.

No one here including yourself have shown scriptures taken in its proper context that can prove the whole law(Torah) is not binding today. Not even the most famous Col 2:14 can be used for that end. On the other hand I have supplied lots of scriptures to support my points.


What transpire above is Fear. You are afraid to look beyond what you currently understand. That is typical and the nature of the flesh.

By ignoring scriptures that contradict what you believe, and nailing laws to the cross, you have shown yourself to not “live by EVERY word that proceeded by the mouth of God".

You haven't shown that you understand the feasts nor what the Feasts Sabbaths, yearly Sabbaths, and the Jubilee Sabbath means. You haven’t shown yet that it is in your interest to understand these either -- probaby because of the fear shown in the quote above.

8 Days Laws

You also want to ignore all 8th days laws. Here's a lists of them for everyone to meditate upon:

1-Circumcision : 7 days + 1 = 8 (the 7 days count started on any days of the week depending on the day the person was born. This is the pattern all other 8days laws follows below.) Circumcision(of the heart) is a Passover requirement. By law anyone that is not circumcized cannot eat the passover lamb = become a Kingdom citizen. Is anyone going to say that this law is not binding anymore? I don't think so.

2-Consecration of the Priests : 7 days + 1 = 8 (here the first day count was on a Sunday making the 8thday count a Sunday)

3-Pentecost : 7weekly Sabbaths x 7 + 1 = 50, (the 7 weeks Sabbath count started on the first day of the week. The 50th day always landed on a Sunday = 1st day of the week aka 8thday) Note the Pentecost day was to be kept as a Sabbath.

4-Feast of Tabernacle : 7days + 1 = 8 (Here this Feast depending on which day the 7th month started. The 1st day and the 8th day were to be kept as a Sabbath.)

5-Jubilee Year : 7years Sabbaths x 7 + 1 year = 50, (this is the same pattern as Pentecost by which Pentecost was based on the circumcision patterns above. The 50th year(which is the 1st year of the next cycle) and all the 7th years were to be kept as a Sabbath year. The debt-bond servants were to be released every 7th year and their debt were put on hold (not canceled) and resumed to pay their debt with their servitude on the following year until the Jubilee. It was on the Jubilee year that all debt were cancelled and everyone was restored back to their inheritance. Of course, this was pointing to the plan of redemption that the Lord has put the world under. However, on the prophetic application level 1 year equals 1000 years. That’s why the Lord has grouped the coming 1000 years as a Millennium in Revelation. In that book, it says after the first [Sabbatical] Millennium comes the White throne of judgment where all the sins will be judge and equated to a debt that needs to be restituted according to the judgments of the laws(Torah). Then the plan of salvation will continue its course according to what the Lord has shown in His law of Jubilee.

We have above 5 explicit 8th days laws. Here's are things we can note:

-they are all based after a Sabbath type of cycle.
-all the 3 feasts are represented in one or more of these laws.
-many of these 8th days laws are also known to be a Sabbath : Pentecost(1st & 8th day), Feast of Tabernacle(1st & 8th day), and the Jubilee year(1st year = 8th day type). So the Lord has brought an application of the Sabbath on these three 8th days laws.

Will you investigate these further with the Lord? Will you seek what the Lord wants us to understand with these laws? This is the attitude we should have and I'm sure with time you will come to have it also. I believe the Lord will remove all fear in His good timing so we won't be afraid to inquire to the Lord about it and die by passing thru that veil to grow into the next level of faith.


Priesthood Work Harder on the weekly Sabbath more than any other weekly days

Another thing you need to consider in your understanding of the your LITERAL weekly Sabbath application -- why the Priests (that you and all of us should be) in the law worked more on the weekly Sabbath than any other days? That alone will put a huge dent in our current understanding of the LITTERAL weekly Sabbath.

Blessings to you and all others in their spiritual walk and growth (by which Passover & Pentecost & Tabernacle represents) in reaching the promise land and receiving their inheritance: to abide(tabernacle) in the Lord's house and He abiding in our Body Temple House.

Umm, so because some of the ceremonial sabbaths fell on the eighth day, the Commandment to "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (qadash, 6942- "a verb meaning to be set apart") is changed, so now we are to keep Sunday "set apart" from the other six days? The Seventh Day is "set apart" from all other days; therefore, it is set apart from the ceremonial sabbaths as well.

Incidentally, "wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."(qadash, 6942- "a verb meaning to be set apart") It was God who "set apart" the Seventh Day. What part of your three? or is it seven? or is it eight? step journey to spiritual maturity requires us to "set apart" a day that He never "hallowed"?

Why not keep the ceremonial sabbaths "spiritually" on the seventh day. Then the Ten Commandments could remain intact?

Good, helpful summary of the 8th day law Elle. I've never given that much thought. I've been interested in broadening my understanding of the 8th day at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles but hadn't gone to the trouble of reviewing all of the similar occurances. This will help. If you have any thoughts please post them.

I believe some may be loosing sight of the level of importance whiten the laws.

The Moral Law is the primary law. While the ceremonial law is the secondary law. This keeping of the ceremonial law was temporary whereas the Moral Law is eternal.

I do agree that both of these laws make up the schoolmaster in Galatians 3:24, but, the Moral Law is of supreme importance.

Can we agree on just these points here at this time?

Absolutely correct, Alchemy!

If sin had never entered our world, the Ten Commandments would still have shed their Light through eternal ages; while, the ceremonial laws would have never existed.

Has the ceremonial law now ended when type met antitype? Yes. And along with it the Levitical priesthood which was also a type which met antitype in the ministry and death of Christ.

To list them like that helped me also to take a step back and viewing them as a whole. Also ProdigalOne timely comment about the Lord quadesh-sanctify the Sabbath -- did help also to view the relationship between the Sabbaths and the 8th days laws. For me it seems that I'm having a little break thru as I long have struggled to link these to have some level of understanding.

I'm currently working on a post to reply to ProdigalOne Sabbath-quadesh comment. I think that will help and lead to your inquiry. After that Post, I will work to share my thoughts(which is not complete and a working progress) about the Feast of Tabernacle in relation with the 8th days laws which in brief is all about Sonship. Tx for asking.

So are you saying that those very specific and very literal laws are still binding?

That is beautiful!

In light of your last bit about laws are to be kept and will always be the same, I present the following again for your answer:
Legal requirements? Spiritual legal requirements? That will be interesting to find out what you mean by that.

As asked elsewhere, but stating it briefly, killing and eating the passover, how can that be done without killing and eating it?

What does the following mean to you?