Should Christians Be Called Sinners or Saints?

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners..." This phrase encompasses the entire human race. Jesus said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17. I think the context makes it clear that Paul is not saying he is presently a sinner. He believes of all the sinners Jesus has saved he is the chief.

There are alot of people in the Bible who could be classified as the "chief of sinners." If we were to hold a contest to determine the "chief of sinners" I doubt Paul would win. I think Judas would win hands down. And David would probably come in second place. Perhaps I am third?

Forty-one times (KJV) Paul refers to fellow believers as saints (in the present tense). It's also helpful to note that Paul refers to himself as a apostle (15 times) rather than a sinner. Here's one example:

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

But not once did he ever refer to a fellow believer as a sinner, in the present tense. However, he did refer to them as sinners in the past tense. Here's an example:

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Finally, notice how Paul contrasts believers and sinners:

Gal 2:15-17
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

The point being - Jesus is not the minister of sin or sinners, instead He is the minister of saints and the saved. Yes, Jesus saves sinners, but He is not the minister of sin or sinners.

[ December 08, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

You are bringing out some interesting thoughts here, however, what about Paul's use of those words in the present tense? Why didn't Paul say "was" instead of "am"?

Also, what the the SOP say about this?

Paul saying he is the chief of sinners in the present tense does not mean that he is still a sinner. So far as Paul is concerned he is listed as chief among all the sinners that have been saved by grace. He can say that he is chief in the present tense because he's referring to a list that still exists. That list will not be blotted out until Jesus ceases His high priestly role in the MHP.

It's interesting that not only is Paul the chief of sinners on the list of sinners saved by grace, he is also the chief of saints on the list of saints saved by grace.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, page 1107, paragraph 2
Paul had a very humble opinion of his own advancement in the Christian life. He says, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect." He speaks of himself as the chief of sinners. Yet Paul had been highly honored of the Lord. He had been taken, in holy vision, to the third heaven, and had there received revelations of divine glory which he could not be permitted to make known.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 23, 1911, paragraph 1
The conversion of Saul was marked with heartfelt repentance, thorough confession, and an earnest longing for pardon of sin. Prior to his conversion, Saul had been proud and self-confident; now he was bowed down with sorrow and shame; he abhorred himself because of the suffering he had brought upon the disciples of Jesus. In the light of the revelation that had come to him, he began to see himself as the chief of sinners.

An Appeal, page 3, paragraph 3
We may flatter ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our moral character has been correct, and we need not humble ourselves before God, like the common sinner. But we must be content to enter into life in the very same way as the chief of sinners. We must renounce our own righteousness, and plead for the righteousness of Christ to be imputed to us. We must depend wholly upon Christ for our strength. Self must die. We must acknowledge that all we have is from the exceeding riches of divine grace. Let this be the language of our hearts, "Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give we glory for thy mercy and for thy truth's sake."

[ December 09, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Those quotes seems to back up the idea that we are sinners saved by the love, mercy, and grace of God through Jesus Christ.

If we went about proclaiming that we are saints rather than sinners saved by the love, mercy, and grace of God through Jesus Christ, how would we be perceived by others?

However, there is a good case for us to beingb referring to ourselves as saints.

What is the difference being being called a sinner as to being called a saint?

In other words, what is the difference between a sinner and a saint?

Here is the biblical definition of "sinner":

Greek: "Hamartolos"
Definition: devoted to sin, a sinner, not free from sin, pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked, all wicked men, specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes,
tax collectors, heathen.

Here is the biblical definition of "saint":

Greek: "Hagios"
Definition: most holy thing, a saint.

If we went around calling ourselves saints, I suspect our friends at work and elsewhere would be quick to point out our shortcomings, mostly amongst eachother behind our backs. For we all fall short of the glory of God, and sanctification is the work of a lifetime. And we are all at different places on the road to perfection. So, I'm thinking it is more appropriate to refer to ourselves as sinners who are saved by Grace, while the label of Saint is more in God's domain and should probably be left up to His department.

Restin wrote:

"For we all fall short of the glory of God, and sanctification is the work of a lifetime."

Do you mean it will take an entire lifetime to cease from sin? I thought true sanctification was constantly living for Christ, the result of lifelong obedience. I have never read where she, or any other inspired author, teaches that sanctification is the process of gradually out growing sin over the course of a lifetime.

The Acts of the Apostles, page 560, paragraph 3
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

Reflecting Christ, page 340, paragraph 6
The great Teacher came to our world to stand at the head of humanity, to thus elevate and sanctify humanity by His holy obedience to all of God's requirements, showing it is possible to obey all the commandments of God. He has demonstrated that a lifelong obedience is possible. Thus He gives chosen, representative men to the world, as the Father gave the Son, to exemplify in their life the life of Jesus Christ.

Faith and Works, page 53, paragraph 1
True sanctification will be evidenced by a conscientious regard for all the commandments of God, by a careful improvement of every talent, by a circumspect conversation, by revealing in every act the meekness of Christ.

The Upward Look, page 284, paragraph 2
In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life.

Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 6, 1878, paragraph 6
We warn our brethren of the Indiana Conference and elsewhere. Our position has ever been that true sanctification, which will stand the test of the Judgment, is that which comes through obedience of the truth and of God.

Manuscript Releases Volume Five, page 347, paragraph 2
True sanctification comes through willing obedience. We are distinctly and decidedly taught that the proper observance of the Sabbath brings a knowledge of what constitutes true sanctification.

In light of the preceding quotations how can we go on calling ourselves and one another sinners? True sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience, the result of Christ in us. Who dare refer to what Christ has wrought as - Sinner?

To go around proclaiming to be a sinner is to behave like a sinner. So would going around proclaiming to be a saint. Whether or not we are saints or sinners is not the issue. Jesus is the issue. He's everything. If our life is hid in Christ we are, in the eyes of God, saints. We are saints from God's perspective, which is the only who should proclaim us saints.

Mike said,

In light of the preceding quotations how can we go on calling ourselves and one another sinners?

Paul, one of the greatest Christians of all time, called himself the chief of sinners: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15.

Maybe I just need a clarification here, since I've always agreed with and supported most of what I've seen you post here. While I certainly don't think we should make a career out of going around calling our brethren "sinners", we shouldn't shy away from it when warranted, either.

Nor should we shy away from calling ourselves sinners, when warranted: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

How long has it been since you sinned? I sinned today, speaking for myself. Though I certainly have assurance of forgiveness! And assurance that Christ will give strength to overcome the committing of that sin, if I will but call on Him for strength to overcome.

But I'll never get to the point [edit: this side of the close of probation] where I'm above being called a sinner. Because I sin all too often. Though I hope it's less and less as time goes on.

John, good points. Thank you. Would you agree that calling attention to ourselves is unhealthy? I have this sneaky suspicion that if, in the company of others, we proudly (or even humbly) declare - "I have sinned today, therefore I am a sinner and not a saint." - if we do this we are drawing unnecessary attention to ourselves, which means we are dragging others away from Jesus.

In the eyes of God we are "saints" IF we are born again and connected to Jesus and walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. In Christ we are free from sin. See 1 John 3:9. If we should disconnect ourselves from Jesus, who is our health and strength, and find ourselves back in sin, the Spirit is quick to impress us to receive the gift of repentance, which when received empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. It also gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore the relationship our sin severed, to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

In Christ we are free from sin. See Rom 6. In Christ we have ceased from sin. See 1 Peter 4:1,2. In Christ we do not and cannot sin. See 1 John 3:9. In Christ we live by the faith of Jesus, who knew no sin. See Gal 2:20. The Bible promises are unmistakable. Since in Christ we are free from sin, again I ask - How can we go around with the idea that we are sinners? Especially how can we run around telling others we are sinners?

Why not run around proclaiming how great God is! how wonderful it is to be free from the burden of sin! how awesome it is to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man!

[ December 30, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I agree it isn't good to focus on whether or not we are sinners or saints, but that our focus instead should be on knowing and following Jesus. As for sanctification taking a lifetime, I didn't mean that you would try all your life only to reach perfection the last moments. I believe perfection is never actually reached in this life. That's why Christ came to die in our stead, that His perfection can cover for our lack. If we could do it eventually why should Jesus have had to die for our sinfullness? There is a lot more to sin than we realize, and much more of it in us than we can even name. Jesus paid for more than we can ever know. Meanwhile we do the best we can to be decent people. I believe we do have to try, and somtimes try hard. Sometimes fate (God's discipline) forces us into a struggle we would never ask for even to be better. It isn't all up to us. Life's trials do much more than our efforts, to build nobility and inner strength. As converts, we get into the harness with Jesus instead of "kicking against the pricks". We should try to learn lessons from our trials and not just become defiant and bitter. Instead, we do improve and many of us become responsible, dignified citizens that even the worldly notice and respect. But even so, we live in Christ's perfection. I agree it isn't healthy to obsess on whether or not we are, or will be, perfect. We trust in Christ's promise to help us become better and to cover us with His own perfection, all the way to the end.

Restin, thank you for those encouraging words. Indeed, we cannot long afford to focus on ourselves. Jesus must occupy the center of our attention.

However, your thoughts on our never actually reaching perfection in this life deserves further study. I believe getting this point right is crucial to our salvation. As one sage said in Pilgrims Progress, "We cannot achieve what we cannot believe."

Considering the following texts what would you say about living without sin:

Rom 6:7,18
For he that is dead is freed from sin.... Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Peter 4:1,2
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I read 1 John 3:9 again and it does say whoever is born of God cannot sin. So, what does it mean that I sin? I believe I was born again, and have committed myself to becoming a better person thru Jesus Christ. I recently got a lot better about undermining the company I work for in front of other employees. I think that's very bad, as it's just what Lucifer did in heaven that started the ball rolling in all the universal mess we're in. So, last week I caught myself complaining about the Co. policies again where I work. So, how do you reconcile that with the text that says I cannot sin because I am born of God? What about yourself Mr.Lowe? From reading these posts, I generally respect what you have to say and believe you are a sincere Christian. Do you ever do anything wrong? Maybe you can now refrain from stealing money from a friend, or making suggestive comments to someone's wife. But what about the other faults, excesses, and shortcomings? Do the people who live and work next to you agree that you are a faultless person? Do you know any elderly folks who have no faults? They, if not us, should be the Christians who have arrived at total perfection, if that be possible. I know a lot of old folks, but none I could say doesn't have some irritating bad habits. Again, I agree that John says those words about not committing sin, but I don't know how to reconcile that with real life. Maybe you can explain more about it.

Excellent questions. But remember, not even Jesus was considered faultless or sinless by some. So, sometimes it's a matter of personal perspective. Most people are hard on themselves and are quick to admit that they aren't perfect. Thus, when they look around at others (a bad habit, by the way), they are willing to allow that nobody else is perfect either, that way they don't feel alone.

But I believe it is better to trust in the biblical promises of God, which simply say - If we are born again and in Christ we are at that precise moment without moral imperfection. And not just in the legal sense, as important as that is. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13.

It is so reassuring to know and believe that as long as we are connected to Christ and focused on Him and His righteousness we are free from moral sin. But I can also reassure you that when I'm not in Christ I am in one sin or another. There are no half way points. We are either all of His and free from sin, or none of His and full of sin.

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Rom 8:9. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Mat 6:24.

The fact you know of no one who is faultless does not dilute the Bible truth about those who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man "are without fault before the throne of God." Rev 14:5. Our observations may not be as accurate as God's. What really matters is that in the eyes of God we are without fault if we are in Christ, and not just in the legal sense.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [Jesus] is righteous." 1 John 3:7. "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." Jude 24. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations." 2 Peter 2:9. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6.

Do I ever slip in and out of sin? Yes, of course. But does my failure disprove the promises of God? Does my personal reality negate the word of God? Nay, not at all. The promises of God also accommodate sinning and repenting. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1,2.

Do these promises cancel each other out? No way. Both are true at certain times. The promises of perfection, which by the way is a gift we receive from God and not something we achieve after years of trial and error (Amen, thank you Jesus), are true only when we are in Christ. And the other promises are true when we slip in and out of sin. But they don't apply simultaneously.

Am I making any sense?

The last paragraph did make sense.

So, it seems that when the text says we cannot sin if we are Born of God, it means we are covered by the Righteousness of Christ and that is only what God sees. Christ's Grace is like a tent, so to speak, that covers us and our daily actions. Under that tent we deal with our faults, and cooperate with Jesus and the Holy Spirit to change our character so that we can come as near as possible to the Christ Perfection ..that God sees instead of us. That way, when Born of God, we don't have to be afraid of being kicked out of the "tent" for each slip-up. The "tent" is always there while we deal with our personal character problems. We no longer have to fear we are out of the tent of God's acceptance the instant we do something bad, and are only let back in if we repent and manage not to do the bad thing for awhile. Does that sound like what John is trying to say?

That's not what I hear John saying. The promises of perfection pertain to born again believers here and now, and not after years of gradually becoming less and less sinful. Neither do I believe it means God looks at us through the imputed righteousness of Christ even though in reality we are miserably defective.

Jesus cannot justify imputing His blood and righteousness to hide our unconquered defects of character. Being impatient is a known moral sin, and Jesus cannot justify us while we are steeped in known sin. And if we refuse to confess and forsake our sin we are unsaved. Otherwise, salvation is not salvation. If we are saved with our moral imperfections, then what are we saved from?

Justification accommodates 1) past sins confessed and forsaken and, 2) sins of ignorance. But there is no such thing as an unknown moral defect of character if self is dead and we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. That is, no truly born again believer can ignorantly blow up on his children and not realize he has sinned.

This is not to say that born again believers are incapable of taking their eyes off Jesus and slipping back into the mind of the old man. We are always free to sin after we've been born again. And repentance and forgiveness is available in Christ should this happen.

I believe a mistake some people make when they try to reconcile the promises of perfection and the reality of their lives is that they assume victory somehow depends on their unaided ability to perform to God's standard - the sinless example of Jesus. But the good news is Good News because perfection isn't something we have to achieve, instead it's a gift we receive from God the moment we are born again (after self is crucified and buried).

We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. The free gift of the sinless mind of the new man is the "mystery of godliness" in the same sense as it applies to our Lord. Jesus Christ is miraculously born again in us the moment we receive the gift of perfection, the mind of the new man. And so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are imitating the sinless example of Jesus, which is sanctification. Not because we or anyone else says so, but because the promises of God say so!!

Is that better?

Words are so easy to put together to sound good. But your example of the person who blows up at the kids is a perfect topic for explaining. I would learn from sticking close to that example. What if I'm a born-again Christian, but I'm having an ongoing problem about losing my temper with my kid. And don't try to tell me I'm not truly committed to God; because I know I am, for it's long been my deep, earnest pact with Him. A lot of people are up against this child abuse problem, tho, and it's as good a way as any to ILLUSTRATE just what we mean by sin, or sinless. So, I would like to see just where we stand with God and perfection when we "lose it" and put down our kid fifty times worse than he has it coming.( I don't happen to have kids, so don't worry about offending me..I just think it's a perfect point for defining what you are getting at)

Okay, here's what makes sense to me, from the "for what it's worth" corner. But first a little more verbage. Sorry. There are two categories and eight types of sin.

Accountable Sin
1. Intentional
2. Unintentional
3. Omission
4. Faithless
5. Unpardonable

Non-Accountable Sin
1. Unwitting
2. Fleshly clamorings
3. Forgiven

An intentional sin is premeditated and deliberate. An unintentional sin is spontaneous and unplanned. A sin of omission is leaving a good deed left undone. A faithless sin is doing the right thing for the wrong reason. An unpardonable sin is any sin we refuse to confess and forsake. An unwitting sin is any sin we commit unknowingly or ignorantly. The fleshly clamorings of our sinful flesh are only temptations, and do not become accountable sin until we desire or do them. Sins forgiven are sins forsaken.

Now, back to the derailed, impatient father. I do have children, albeit they're grown up, so I can relate to this illustration. Nobody likes head aches, but it's not worth losing your head over. So, how can a God-fearing, Christian father remain calm, cool and collected under all circumstances?

Jesus said, "The truth shall make you free." John 8:32. So, whatever the answer is to the secret of staying connected to Jesus it must have something to do with the truth. And the truth is if we are in Christ, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot sin. See Gal 5:16 and 1 John 3:9 to name just a few of the many promises.

Most of us are guilty of unintentinal sin when we find ourselves being impatient. For me, it is helpful to know which type of sin I'm guilty of so that I know how to avoid repeat business in future. Usually there are tell-tale signs which precede impatience - disgust, irritation, sweaty hands, red face, clinched teeth. These warning signs should tell us that we need to focus more intently on Jesus. We haven't sinned yet.

In the heat of temptation it is also helpful to know that God is not allowing us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13. Thus, we may know that we can successfully resist the urge to respond in an un-Christlike manner. Knowing we can win the war is necessary in order to fight the battle.

The fight involves keeping our eyes on Jesus, staying connected to Him. The fight does not involve focusing on not sinning, and nor does it involve focusing on an opposite more righteous response. We cannot focus on behaviour during the heat of the battle. The only thing we can do to experience victory over temptation is to exercize every nerve and fiber of our being to keep our eyes on Jesus, to stay connected to Him.

Sin loses all its power and appeal in the company of sweet Jesus. When we hang out with Jesus the idea of being impatient is repulsive. Walking in the lovely atmosphere of Jesus' presence makes being kind and patience a possibility and a pleasure. It is impossible to sin while we are filled with the Spirit of God, while we are connected to Jesus, while we are in intimate relationship with Jesus. It is this truth that sets us free, that prevents us from falling prey to the sinister devices of Satan.

So, when we find ourselves being impatient it is because we have left off hanging out with Jesus. We have allowed ourselves to become distracted and preoccupied with the temptation. Which is easy to do considering temptation rarely works alone. They trend to gang up on us throughout the day. But if we believe that there is no excuse for being impatient, no temptation or group of temptations that God cannot empower us to resist, then we will be motivated to keep our eyes on Jesus.

The sooner we realize and believe the truth about resisitng temptation the sooner we will walk with Christ without sin. But if we make up excuses for falling into sin, or ignore the obvious meaning of the promises of God, or twist them to mean something different, then we shall surely rise no higher than our distorted view of victory. We must see sin as something easy for God to empower us to overcome. If we daily practice the presence of Jesus not sinning will become a non-issue. And that's good news!

Beautiful logic, but doesn't sound quite like any real life I've ever seen.

Perhaps that's the reason we're still here. Jesus promised to return when the living gospel impacts everyone everywhere. But if nobody is truly experiencing the gospel then no one else is witnessing it.

Please share what you believe is the truth about the gospel and living without sin. And then explain why Jesus hasn't come yet.

It does appear that until our sins are blotted out of the books of record, we are still sinners saved by grace.

While Peter didn't continually remind everyone about what he had done (he didn't have to), and while he knew that God had forgiven him, he could not firgive himself (AA 538). With someone like Peter, that was a good thing. It kept him humble, which was typically a challenge for him.

And yet we are called (to be) saints as well.

So, Bob, are you saying that we should be called both sinners and saints?

Should we then be called sinners saved by grace, or simply sinners?

John Paulien from the seminary used the parables of Matthew that referred to the End Times (Chapters 24 and 25) and the ones in Luke (the worldly Judge and the Pharisee/Publican) to prove the moniker "Saint" or "Sinner" isn't as important as the adjective that you put in front of it.

Those who are ready for the Lord's arrival are both "confessing" sinners (see Luke's Pharisee/Publican) and "performing" saints (Matthew's wise virgins, sheep and the goats, wise users of talents, etc.).

Sinner or saint? Hmm.

". . . and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him . . ." 1Jn. 3:2.

It goes on to say those who [keep on] committing sin don't "abide" in Christ and those who don't have a lifestyle of obedience are not indwelt by God's Spirit.

I would say that I'm a sinner in the rehabilitation process -- the process of becoming a saint.

How?

Jesus put away sin by sacrificing Himself. Heb. 9:26 says Jesus "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." To look into that deeper, it could be said that Jesus' daily selfless acts show that dying daily to self will put away sin.

So, the rehab process goes on.

It's my personal belief that there are some who have reached a place in their spiritual experience where they could be considered as having a "perfect" character (i.e., arrived at what might be termed as "sainthood" perhaps). Those who fit in this category certainly don't know it -- in my opinion, a person with a perfect character will have humility and not count themselves as having arrived at perfection yet. Even Paul said, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."--Phil. 3:13-14.

So, sinners striving for the prize cooperate with God in daily decisions that either put us on His side or the other side.

"Who will draw with God, seeking to set in operation a restoring power that will obtain the mastery over sin? Those who will not fail nor become discouraged in this work; who will venture to take hold of the wretchedness they see around them, cooperate with their Redeemer. Thus we may show our gratitude to God. Our sympathies are wrought upon by the Holy Spirit; and in the heart of the one who is helped gratitude springs up, and he gathers hope to lay hold upon the hand of divinity, and to realize that God is seeking to save him from sin and degradation."--General Conference Bulletin, April 1, 1899; article, "Following Christ."

Blessings, Sandra

He who has sinned is a sinner.

I would have to say we are sinful saints.

"I die daily", said Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:31.

It's a continual process.

To me, that's simple enough! One that will carry all saints/sinners through until the close of probation. At that time, though they know it not, saints will still agonize over sins that they think they may not have confessed.

"Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they shall fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise, 'I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world.' Rev. 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon, they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached." -- Great Controversy [1888], p. 619.

This speaks of redeemed people after the close of probation being worried about unconfessed sin; about their status before God as regards sin in their lives. If these people (let us pray that we're among that number) feel it necessary to agonize over possible status as sinners before God; should we blithely say, "we're saints, and no sinners" now? I think not.

Jesus said, "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17.

Let us not ever come to the place where we succumb to the delusion that we are without sin. Until that time comes for sure: when the Lord calls His dead saints from the grave, and His living saints to immortality.

The Bible uses 98 texts RE : Saint*

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
2 Chronicles 6:41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.
Job 5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Psalms 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalms 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalms 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
Psalms 52:9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
Psalms 79:2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
Psalms 85:8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.
Psalms 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
Psalms 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalms 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalms 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
Psalms 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
Psalms 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalms 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalms 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Proverbs 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Hosea 11:12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Philippians 4:21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.
Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The Bible uses 67 texts RE : Sinner*

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Numbers 16:38 The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates for a covering of the altar: for they offered them before the LORD, therefore they are hallowed: and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel.
1 Samuel 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
Psalms 26:9 Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
Psalms 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Proverbs 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Proverbs 13:6 Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
Proverbs 13:21 Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.
Proverbs 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children’s children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
Proverbs 23:17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
Ecclesiastes 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecclesiastes 7:26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
Ecclesiastes 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
Ecclesiastes 9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mark 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luke 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luke 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luke 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 19:7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
John 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
John 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

SOP hits for saint* = 2581

SOP hits for sinner* = 5819 (feel free to use the White Estate website.

Look at the context & weight of the evidence & draw your own conclusions.

My $0.02's worth adjusted for inflation, taxes, and general carrying charges.

Daryl's original question asked:

"I often hear Christians still referring to themselves as sinners instead of saints. What are we as Christians, sinners or saints, or both?"

Please consider this passage:

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made sinners.

Jesus contrasted sinners and saints:

Luke 6:32-34
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

Oh, really? Well then, how does it read? I was trying to make the Bible fit what others seem to be saying about sinners.

I thought you may have done that on purpose, however, it didn't say saints either. It said righteous.

Do you think there is a significant difference between the words saint and righteous so that you can conclude Romans 5:19 implies that Jesus' obedience perpetuates our status as sinners?

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Rev 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And what about the way Jesus contrasts saints and sinners? Luke 6:32-34.

2 Cor. 1:1b " . . . all the saints throughout Achaia:"

Eph. 1:1b " To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus."

Phil. 1:1 ". . . To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, . . ."

Col. 1:2a "To the holy and faithful . . ."


It seems that Paul was willing to call human church members saints. I do not think that he called them sinless.

Are you saying then that there are two kinds of sinners and saints, sinless and sinful sinners, and sinless and sinful saints?

Jesus contrasted sinners and saints:

Luke 6:32-34
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

In the context of what Jesus said about sinners, Daryl, are you willing to maintain that you are a sinner?

Here is the biblical definition of "sinner":

Greek: "Hamartolos"
Definition: devoted to sin, a sinner, not free from sin, pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked, all wicked men, specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes,
tax collectors, heathen.

Here is the biblical definition of "saint":

Greek: "Hagios"
Definition: most holy thing, a saint.

Okay, given these definitions of saint and sinner where do born again believers fit in?

In human terms "saint" is commonly thought to imply perfection, or sinlessness. But, I to not believe that is a biblical defination. If it were, I do not think Paul could have so commonly called humans saints ad in the verses I have referenced above.

My understanding of the Biblical term is those who have concentrated themselves to God. If this is true, then saints are those who are Christians. As we know, Christians stumble and fall.

If saints are those who are Christians, and I am not disputing that, is this only referring to born-again Christians, or does this cover all those professing to be a Christian?

Titus 1:16
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I doubt Paul would classify these kind of people as saints.

Didn't Paul begin his letters by addressing all of the recipients of these letters as saints?

"To all the saints in....."

When he said that was he only addressing those whom he considered to be saints, or was he addressing this to all professing Christians, to the whole church of Ephesus, for example?

"To all the saints..." not "to all the sinners." The church is full of wheat and tares, saints and sinners.

Maybe so, but I think Paul was referring to all the saints in Ephesus, or wherever, in a general or corporate sense, knowing full well that there are tares with the wheat.

It is like you writing a letter to the members of the Fredericton SDA Church referring the church members as "To all of the saints in the Fredericton SDA Church" but knowing full well that there is probably tare church members mixed in with the wheat church members. The word saints in this sense obviously refers to all members without even attempting to distinguish or try to judge who are the wheat and who are the tares. Only God knows which is which.

It is obvious to me that Christians are referred to as saints in the respect of one person addressing another person, however, are there any instances where the person identifies himself or herself as a saint?

They are one and the same. The Bible authors often used word pairs.

I see much hs been said on the subject of sinner and saint. However I think you guys have missed a simple point (or maybe I missed it). There are two perspectives on "sinner." David said, "I was shaped in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me." And Paul said, "How can we live any longer therein" if we have been saved. So it seems to me that we are sinners by nature, "saints" if you want to call it that, by the Grace/forgiveness of God.
However, we should be careful going going around calling ourselves "saved" or "Righteous". Which of the prophets or the ancients do we know did? that?

Good point. We are born with sinful flesh nature and we are born again with sinless traits of character.

Fifiqueen,

You may have given the best answer that can be given!