Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when?

John, I appreciate you starting this topic. As you can tell from the many other threads my favorite theme is salvation from sin in Jesus Christ our Lord.

I believe we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again. We are born again without our former moral imperfections (aka, defective traits of character). Which implies we are not born again mentally perfect. That is, we may not realize the truth about the sabbath or pork, etc.

However, I believe glorification happens in two stages, at least for the 144,000: 1) Jesus blots our their record and memory of specific sins during the MOB crisis, and 2) Jesus gives them an incorruptible body and sinless nature when He arrives in the clouds of glory.

I do not believe glorification, as it pertains to our memory of specific sins, happens simultaneously with justification and sanctification, that is, the moment we are born again. As I see it, glorification is affiliated with the most holy place (MHP) ministry of Jesus. I believe our experience in the MHP begins when Jesus commences investigating our case in judgment. This does not begin, as I understand it, for the dead until sometime after they die and for the living until sometime after the MOB crisis begins.

During the investigative judgment of the living Jesus blots out the record and memory of specific sins. To me this is the first phase of glorification. I understand this to mean that once Jesus blots out our sins we will be, at that precise moment, unable to recall the specific sins we committed during our lifetime of sinning and repenting. The Bible and SOP make this clear.

Isaiah
43:25 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Hebrews
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Revelation
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

3SG 134, 135
Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. Certain destruction threatens them, and like Jacob they will not suffer their faith to grow weak, because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the pangs of hunger, they will not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the angel, and the language of their soul is, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me." The saints at length prevail like Jacob, and are gloriously delivered by the voice of God.

GC 618-620
As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God….

If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached….

They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them….

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.

The study of Sanctification is clear from a study of the sanctuary.

Justification is a courtyard christian....One that stays in the "sin then be forgiven, sin and be forgiven" over and over again.....will not progress into the Holy Place when we will become cleansed FROM our sins and live Christ's life in His strength: Sanctification, a walk with with our eternal Saviour. Then Judgement and glorification.

Remember this scripture:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

"His Life".....Example, His atonement in each of its phases.

That is an interesting view of justification Charlene.

Can God justify him who is justifying himself?

Charlene, justification is obtained in the outer court and maintained in the holy place. We are born again without our former moral imperfections in the outer court. We grow in grace, accumulate spiritual knowledge and mature in the fruits of the Spirit in the holy place - which is called sanctification. We do not sin and repent in the holy place. Sinning takes place outside the outer court and repentance happens within it.

We are Justified by His blood and sanctified by the sprinkling of His blood in our behalf. Only as we are covered with the merits of Jesus Christ, and the power of His grace do we progress, step by step, to Sanctification. Staying in the courtyard, by choice...."justification alone" is a fatal mistake.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Four----PG- 299

On another occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. While in Oregon I was shown that some of the young churches of the New England
Conference were in danger through the blighting influence of what is called sanctification. Some would become deceived by this doctrine, while others, knowing its deceptive influence, would realize their danger and turn from it. Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he: "I die daily." His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the
will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature."

His blood must be sprinkled daily on our behalf for us to progress thru the apartments of the sanctuary.

Charlene, do I understand you to be saying that

1. You are justified by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago.
2. You are sanctified daily (after believing the above)
3. You are going to be glorified when Christ returns.

Also, Charlene, are you 1) saying sanctification is the process of gradually becoming less and less sinful, that is, sinning less and less intensely and frequently? And are you 2) saying sinning and repenting happens while we're in the holy place, while we're walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man? And are you 3) saying we will discover new and unknown defects of character while in the holy place? Finally, are you 4) saying "I die daily" means I sin daily therefore I must daily crucify self afresh?

Apparently I can't make myself clear...so just study the Bible and the SOP and Invite the Holy Spirit to make the teachings clear for it does not matter what man says.

Oh, c'mon Charlene. That's a cop out. There's nothing wrong with clarifying the truth. Please just take a few minutes to answer the questions. Thank you.

I am sorry i posted here at all....weak moment, i guess. I have gone over this subject with you before and it was just a continuous never ending circle, round after round. I just don't have the time or energy to go there again. Sorry.

Cop out? OK, if you say so.

Fair enough. Thank you for hanging in there. God bless.

Charlene I do not know if you will be back to read this but what you posted was very clear and to the point from the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy...very easy to understand compared to long drawn out words from man. Thank you.

Avalee, can you please clarify what you believe Charlene said that was in line with the truth? Did she say we are born again with or without our former defects of character? But please avoid long drawn out words.

Mike, perhaps you should address the distinction between the moral and mental law. That is what helped me to understand your position better. As I understanding it, when we are born again we have a change of heart. Our hearts are then new and in perfect compliance to God’s moral law, which may not be in compliance with the mental law, that is something that requires time.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” 2 Cor 5:17

So when we are born again our hearts are made new and at that point we are in compliance with God’s moral law.

The mental law, which is specific to the tables of stone and torah, is only mastered through time and the Holy Spirit.

So do we believe that sanctification relates to the moral or mental law? If moral, then it is not an ongoing process. However, scripture indicates that it is a process (2 Thes 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2). So sanctification must be related to the mental and not moral law.

Lobo, I think I understand Mike's position regarding the moral and mental, though I would be happy for Mike to post it.

So Mike I understand you to say that

1. Justification and sanctification are simultaneous, and happen at conversion
2. Glorification is separate and at some point in the future, when their turn comes in the investigative judgement.

In the above I am only addressing the spiritual Salvation, the internal kingdom of Heaven.

Lobo, would you be able to share with us your thoughts in this?

Shalom

John, I have had a few conversations with Mike on this issue and did not agree with him at first. However, if you believe there is a distinction between God's eternal moral law and the actual law that was given to Israel, then it makes sense.

So when a person believes in Jesus and accepts the gift of salvation they are saved. At that point they are “born again” a “new creation”, meaning they have a new heart that is in perfect compliance with God’s moral law. Understand that this also means that they may or may not be consistent with the law that was given to Israel and that time, because the two laws are not the same.

So this is justification.

I believe that justification includes both the new heart and being in compliance with God’s moral law. I do not believe that is sanctification.

Sanctification involves the expression of God’s moral law. In others words, the action behind the moral law. This means the resulting “good works” as a natural expression of being CONTINUALLY compliant with God’s moral law.

Sanctification is not required to be saved, as the thief on the cross and story of the vineyard owner demonstrate. It is a process by where our actions and behavior come in line with our hearts. The process of becoming holy.

The thief on the cross had not ability to be sanctified because of his situation, but was fully justified and had a new heart. The vineyard worker who was hired for one a minute also had no ability to be sanctified, but was fully justified.

This is my understanding of the process based on scripture.

John, you have correctly summarized my views on J-S-G. But as Lobo pointed out I also believe we may need to grow intellectually after we're morally born again. I think you understand my position on this too. Again, I believe we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, but we also must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit in the same way Jesus did, which is Bible sanctification - lifelong obedience. Of course, repentance and pardon are available should we slip in and out of sin.

Lobo, I'm somewhat confused by your choice of words. Please help me out. The moral versus the mental aspects of God's law - which is which? As I see it, the first four commandments are mental, that is, we are not born naturally knowing them. We must learn them through the Bible. As well as some of the laws of Moses. But the last six commandments are naturally known, to a lesser or greater degree. We are born with an innate knowledge of what is morally right and wrong.

So when I say we are born again morally perfect I mean that our lives are in harmony with at least the last six commandments, that is, in the case of people who have never heard the name of Jesus, and in the case of Bible believing Christians it will involve either all of the commandments or minus the Sabbath commandment until they learn about it latter.

What do you think?

Make sense? Maybe. The difference between moral intent and intelligent behaviour is not easy for me to grasp. If I understand you correctly we are born again when our moral intent is perfect and that over the course of time our behaviour will match our intent. Does that mean we are born again before we know what is in harmony with God's laws? and that in reality we are sinning ignorantly in numerous ways?

Good point. The part I'm not sure about is the phrase "moral intent". To me it seems to imply we are willing to do whatever God requires but that we have no idea what He requires. And I want to understand what Lobo is saying. I believe we are born again morally perfect, which means we already know what is morally right and wrong and, by the grace of God, live accordingly. In other words, we are born again walking in harmony with at least the last six commandments, and more than likely with the first three as well. The fourth may need to come later.