What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It?
Posted By: Daryl
What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/12/03 12:03 AM
This topic was created at the request of Lobo and Mark Shipowick.
What then is the truth about the Abyss?
What is the Abyss and where is it?
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/12/03 01:26 AM
Thanks Daryl
To get this started I will post the following texts: Luke 8:30-31, 2 Pet 2:4, Jude 1:6, and Rev 9:1-2, 11
The key to this, I believe, is the fact that the demon in Luke 8:30 was already located on this earth when he was begging Jesus to not send him to the abyss. So logically this would preclude the abyss from being the earth, at least at that moment in time. In addition, Jesus agreed not to send the demon to the abyss and put him in the pigs. Well, the story goes that the pigs go over the cliff and die, which then released the demon back on this earth. So again, if this earth is the abyss, and Jesus agreed not to send him to the abyss, then Jesus did not keep his word because the demon ended up right back on this earth after the pigs died. This again shows that this earth cannot be where the abyss is located.
So I feel the above texts support the following: the abyss is not this earth and that evil angels (Demons) have been sent there and are held there until the end.
Now, some feel that the reason the bible seems to record so many demon possessions as opposed to modern day times is that most all the demons, accept for Satan, are currently locked in the abyss. This they feel occurred at the cross and is supported by the following texts:
Colossians 2
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 4
8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Posted By: Charity
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/12/03 01:14 PM
Scripture as you point out Lobo indicates that the abyss is a real place and not on this earth - a holding tank for demons. The destructive power of Satan has always been held in check by God, and Satan's ability to tempt and deceive have been limited too. And of course we know and thank God that the cross is the barrier that God has raised for us against Satan and his host.
But the abyss seems to be quite close to us. Anyone who has struggled with temptation can testify that the abyss can beckon with a hellish intensity.
And prophecy indicates that the efforts of hell at the end of earth's history in alluring mankind to deception and destruction will meet with such success that it will in effect release the forces of evil so that they have unwonted freedom to work their will through the majority of mankind in the earth. This is what Revelation 9 is referring to I think. But the prophecy goes on to show that the drama comes to a climax and triumphant close when the temple in heaven opens and humanity sees that it is Christ the Word that they have been warring against. As the saints rejoice in that revelation the wicked will say, like one of earth's great general's exclaimed too late, "Christ was too much for me".
Posted By: Charity
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/12/03 01:22 PM
quote:
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/13/03 07:11 AM
Mark,
I don’t disagree with you, but you stated that the abyss is literally a place and then talk symbolically about it for the rest of your post. So are the things connected with the abyss as stated in revelation real or symbolic.
How can it be a real place but the ting connected to it symbolic?
Posted By: Charity
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/13/03 12:40 PM
Well, the demons are real, but their actions and the effect of their actions are portrayed symbolically in Chapter 9. Also, because demons work through humanity, chapter 9 gives us information on how they do this. The symbols help identify who they work through during the final three trumpets. But I don’t think I’ll be able to go into that now. If you have thoughts on that, I’ll be glad to read them
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/14/03 07:09 AM
Mark, why do you feel the demons actions in Rev 9 are symbolic?
When you read Revelation it seems clear that John was faithfully writing down what he say in terms he understood. So while these terms and symbols he uses may have made sense to him, they don’t quite make sense to us, so we think they are symbolic. However, I believe only the terms used to describe the events are symbolic because John didn’t know what he was seeing. For example, a helicopter looks a lot like a locust. So if you were John how would you describe seeing a helicopter for the first time?
So I believe the events and things described by John are literal, he just used familiar terms to describe things he was unfamiliar with. So for us to understand this we need to try and see it through John’s eyes to understand what he really saw in out terms.
For example, Rev 9:3-11 describes the following:
“3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.”
Verses 3-7 indicates that the locust can hurt men but not kill them. It also indicates that they don’t harm anything else like the grass, etc..
Then, in the proceeding verses they are described as making the sound of thundering horses, inflict pain from their tails, and had a man face.
Well, based on John description and using terms we are familiar with today I conclude that this is a helicopter John is talking about. They look like locust; sound like thundering horses; the military ones launch missiles from it’s tail, and they have a big glass font where you can see the man’s face flying it. Also, the idea of hurting man without harming tress or grass is consistent with biological weapons.
So if we believe we are in the last days we should consider translating Rev in terms we understand, just like John did, to understand what he was actually seeing.
There is a great danger in automatically assuming everything in scripture that is not described in modern terms is symbolic or not an actual physical event. That danger is that we loose the actual intent of the writer and my trivialize what is actually literal.
Posted By: Charity
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/14/03 02:03 PM
Good point Lobo. We need to interpret prophecy literally unless there is good reason to make a symbolic interpretation. I think there my be here, but I can't give the reasons now.
Are there any parts of Revelation that you interpret symbolically? Which parts of Revelation do you think pinpoint where we stand today? Revelation 3 last part? Revelation 12 last part? Revelation 14:6 and forward?
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/14/03 08:43 PM
Mark, your question implies that I believe Revelation is chronological. Well, you are in luck because that is what I actually do believe.
As far as where we are in end time events, I don’t know. I’m open to suggestions in that regard.
Lastly, as far as symbolic things in Revelation, I would have to say that the beasts seem symbolic because no such animals exist in nature. However, like the rest of Revelation, I believe John was describing what he saw. So the question is were these symbols that he saw on something? Or did God show John actual beasts that represent traits, regions, or symbols of nations? I.e. the Bear is Russia, etc..
The weird thing is that Revelation is not a sealed book. So we should be able to understand it. However, there is a string correlation between Daniel and Revelation and Daniel is a sealed but. So I suspect that when Daniel becomes an unsealed book it will also reveal things about revelation.
Posted By: Charity
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/15/03 02:55 AM
Daniel and Revelation follow the same pattern - that is they both repeat and expand. So the elements within a vision or section of the books are generally chrononogical, but the time line is repeated several times. In Daniel the begining and ending points of the time lines are easier to identify, I'd say, than in Revelation. Daniel is unsealed at the time of the end, and I believe that we are in that period.
Posted By: StanMcCluskey
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/16/03 09:32 PM
In a comment on the "abyss" ('bottomless pit") of Revelation 20:1-3, Ellen White made this stastement:
quote:
The revelator foretells the BANISHMENT of Satan and the condition of chaos and desolation to which the earth is to be reduced, and he declares that this condition will exist for a thousand years. GC 658.
This simply means Satan's activities were RESTRICTED against his will. Solitary confinement (BANISHMENT) can become hell (the abyss) to anyone used to active interaction with people or animals. The LOCATION is less important that the BANISHMENT. John's banishment to Patmos was not a delightful experience.
Keep in mind that Satan and his angels were BANISHED from heaven. By comparison, this earth became their hell, abyss, bottomless pit:
quote:
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but CAST THEM DOWN TO HELL (the abyss). 2 Peter 2:4.
John said that ABYSS (hell) is THIS EARTH:
quote:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT INTO THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9.
The demons cast out in Luke 8:31 did not want to go into "THE ABYSS" OF ISOLATION. This is made evident when we compare it with the following:
quote:
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, (the ABYSS of isolation), seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there. Matthew 12:43-45.
We are told in Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan and his angels will be chained to this earth at a time when all people have either died or gone to heaven. For them, that ISOLATION and BANISHMENT, with no opportunity to "deceive the nations," will be the ABYSS of HELL. Revelation 20:3. That condition is called a "PRISON". Revelation 20:7-8.
Posted By: John H.
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/17/03 03:29 PM
I'd like to point out that Ephesians 4:8 refers to Jesus taking the saints, who were resurrected after He was, to heaven with Him at His ascension.
Matthew 27:52 -- "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Where did these saints end up? They didn't continue living on this earth, evidently. There's only one other possibility, and that's what is described in Ephesians 4:8. Jesus took them to heaven with Him. Some of those who were raised are likely seen as the 24 Elders in Revelation chapter 4.
Whatever might be said, it's certain that Jesus didn't take fallen angels back to heaven with Him! God didn't cast them out, just to bring them back.
I also have trouble believing that "most all the demons....are currently locked in the abyss". If that's true, I'd sure hate to see the state the world would be in if they were to be released. It's really very doubtful that the worldwide increase in evil behavior, the rapid nosedive in morality etc. is happening basically all by itself, as the result of only a few demons running around loose influencing things.
The fact that people don't believe in demon possession, or that it isn't reported much any more, doesn't mean that it isn't happening. This modern disbelief is the result of "science falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20). Current psychiatry and pychology mistakenly regard demon possession as ancient superstition/myth instead of historical fact. Satan couldn't be more pleased about that -- all the better to cloak his activities and those of his minions.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/22/03 01:56 AM
So the truth is that in comparision to heaven, the earth is the abyss?
If that is the case, then when did the earth become the abyss, and when will it cease to be the abyss?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/22/03 08:24 AM
What and where is the abyss mentioned in the Bible?
Abussos (#12)
Definitions:
1. Bottomless
2. Unbounded
3. The abyss:
(a) the pit
(b) the immeasurable depth
(c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons
KJV words and number of occurences:
1. Bottomless (2)
2. Bottomless pit (5)
3. Deep (2)
http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=rev+9%3A1§ion=0&translation=str&oq=&sr=1Revelation
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Luke
8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Romans
10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/22/03 08:29 AM
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
ABYSS
a-bis', (he abussos):
In classical Greek the word is always an adjective, and is used either literally or figuratively:
Literally, "very deep," "bottomless";
Figuratively, "unfathomable," "boundless."
"Abyss" does not occur in the King James Version but the Revised Version (British and American) so transliterates abussos in each case. The King James Version renders the Greek by "the deep" in two passages (Luke 8:31; Romans 10:7). In Revelation the King James Version renders by "the bottomless pit" (Revelation 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3).
In the Septuagint abussos is the rendering of the Hebrew word tehom. According to primitive Semitic cosmogony the earth was supposed to rest on a vast body of water which was the source of all springs of water and rivers (Genesis 1:2; Deuteronomy 8:7; Psalms 24:2; 136:6). This subterranean ocean is sometimes described as "the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 5:8). According to Job 41:32 tehom is the home of the leviathan in which he plows his hoary path of foam.
The Septuagint never uses abussos as a rendering of sheol (= Sheol = Hades) and probably tehom never meant the "abode of the dead" which was the ordinary meaning of Sheol. In Psalms 71:20 tehom is used figuratively, and denotes "many and sore troubles" through which the psalmist has passed (compare Jonah 2:5).
But in the New Testament the word abussos means the "abode of demons." In Luke 8:31 the King James Version renders "into the deep" (Weymouth and The Twentieth Century New Testament = "into the bottomless pit"). The demons do not wish to be sent to their place of punishment before their destined time. Mark simply says "out of the country" (Mark 5:10). In Romans 10:7 the word is equivalent to Hades, the abode of the dead.
In Revelation (where the King James Version renders invariably "the bottomless pit") abussos denotes the abode of evil spirits, but not the place of final punishment; it is therefore to be distinguished from the "lake of fire and brimstone" where the beast and the false prophet are, and into which the Devil is to be finally cast (Revelation 19:20; 20:10).
http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T105
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/22/03 09:07 AM
The greek word abussos seems to have several applications throughout the Bible. But in all cases it is somehow associated with planet earth. In the Revelation it appears that abussos is used figuratively and seems to symbolize the origin and destination of the earthly powers and people employed by Satan to oppose God and His chosen people. It also seems to imply the spirit or attitude of antichrist whose shared mindset causes unsaved people to receive the mark of the beast. Apparently the ultimate demise of fallen angels and lost mankind is the lake of fire and the second death. It makes sense that the abyss will be destoyed in the lake of fire along with sin and death and sinners. It will cease to exist or function in the New Earth.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/27/03 02:24 AM
Mike, are you saying that the abyss in Luke 8:31 is not the same abyss discussed in revelation? If so, on what basis do you believe that?
If not, Luke 8 makes it clear that the abyss he was referring to cannot be this earth.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/27/03 06:55 AM
I believe the "deep" referred to in Luke 8:31 is the "bottomless pit" mentioned in Rev 20:3. According to Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:28 the demons feared being tormented before the appointed time. They associated this torment with being cast into the "deep" or "out of the country" (Mark 5:10).
So the question is - What and where is this torment? I believe the torment involves being chained (what) on earth (where). I also believe this torment first began when they were cast out of heaven unto earth. But what evil angels really seem to fear most is being chained for 1000 years with no one to tempt and harass. The demons preferred swine to chains perhaps because they could at least harass the hogs and turn the towns folk against Jesus for the income they lost in the dead pigs.
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Revelation
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[ November 27, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: ThankGod A. Mahel
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 11/27/03 03:32 PM
Hi,
Yes, the Abyss is no where than this earth we are living in. It is an abyss, because satan and his angels will be left to roam alone during the 1000 years which the saints and christ their king will be in heaven.
Hence the great need for all to strive to be among the saints that will enjoy with christ in this glorious transition.All that are living has the time to repent now that probation lingers and the chance is there. The abyss is also known as the bottomless pit.
Thanks and let all praise God for his mercy.
Mahel.
Posted By: StanMcCluskey
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/02/03 09:34 AM
The "BOTTOMLESS PIT" is the same as the ABYSS. So please note that it means THIS EARTH:
quote:
Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness.
The revelator foretells the banishment of Satan and the condition of chaos and desolation to which the earth is to be reduced, and he declares that this condition will exist for a thousand years. After presenting the scenes of the Lord's second coming and the destruction of the wicked, the prophecy continues: "I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." Revelation 20:1-3.
That the expression "bottomless pit" represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth "in the beginning," the Bible record says that it "was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."* Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition. Looking forward to the great day of God, the prophet Jeremiah declares: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." Jeremiah 4:23-26.
Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.
The prophet Isaiah, looking forward to the time of Satan's overthrow, exclaims: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! . . . Thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the Most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; that made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" Isaiah 14:12-17.
For six thousand years, Satan's work of rebellion has "made the earth to tremble." He had "made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof." And he "opened not the house of his prisoners." For six thousand years his prison house has received God's people, and he would have held them captive forever; but Christ had broken his bonds and set the prisoners free.
Even the wicked are now placed beyond the power of Satan, and alone with his evil angels he remains to realize the effect of the curse which sin has brought. "The kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house [the grave]. But thou art cast out thy grave like an abominable branch. . . . Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people." Isaiah 14:18-20.
For a thousand years, Satan will wander to and fro in the desolate earth to behold the results of his rebellion against the law of God. During this time his sufferings are intense. Since his fall his life of unceasing activity has banished reflection; but he is now deprived of his power and left to contemplate the part which he has acted since first he rebelled against the government of heaven, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed. GC 658-660.
When will the desolate earth cease to be an ABYSS? When Satan and the lost are destroyed, and the earth is made new.
quote:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED them. Revelation 20:7-9.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1.
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Isaiah 65:17.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/04/03 02:49 AM
quote:
So the question is - What and where is this torment? I believe the torment involves being chained (what) on earth (where).
Mike, with all due respect that doesn’t make sense as the demon in Luke was already on this earth. And it makes Jesus a liar; Jesus promised to not send the demon to abyss and by the pigs dying the demon would be back on this earth.
So the abyss being this earth is not logical in light of Luke 8:28 and also makes Jesus a liar.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/04/03 03:03 AM
Lobo, as I see it, being chained on earth is what the demons dreaded. So long as they are free to roam and harass people they are happier. Earth can be heaven or hell depending on your present circumstances.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/05/03 07:15 AM
Mike, I don't know what else to say. The demon was on this earth able to harrass humans and Jesus kept him on this earth and stated he would not send him to the abyss.
So the issue was the demon NOT wanting to leave this earth, which was were he was when Jesus found him.
So you and others can believe what you want, but I think anyone who is honest abput this will agree that based on Luke this earth, where humans are, cannot be the abyss.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/04/03 09:24 PM
Fair enough.
Posted By: StanMcCluskey
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/06/03 05:07 PM
Since that parable in Luke seems to be the problem area here, I suggest reading a thoughtful study on this by SDA biblical scholar Ted Wade in his, “Bible Explained, An interactive commentary” at:
http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg01-3/rev01gStDeadLinks.htm Please note his verse-shorthand. Example: 1pe0110f means: 1 Peter 1:10, and the "f" means, "and following."
IF THE PARABLE IS TO BE CONSIDERED COMPLETELY FACTUAL, THEN WE MUST BELIEVE THE ERROR THAT THE DEAD NOT ONLY SPEAK, BUT THOSE "IN HELL" CAN COMMUNICATE WITH THOSE IN HEAVEN. Other Bible texts do not support this.
Portions of his writeup follow:
quote:
Jesus built His story on a parable His hearers would have known well. He changed it to bring home His point. The story they knew had become part of the Mishnah which is a set of rabbinic traditional rules.....The Jewish Talmud was developed from the Mishnah.
In a story in the Talmud, a girl who dies gets the angel of death to ask someone who is to die the next day to bring her comb and a vial of eye-paint. The angel is "Dumah." In the commentary, is the following explanation of him:
"In rabbinic fokelore, this [Duma] is the name of the guardian angel whose task it is to announce to 'the glorious dead' in the celestial regions that 'so-and-so,' now pacing the earth below, is about to enter the eternal realms above.
In the Talmud ('A.Z., 20b), he is described as being 'all eyes' and the absolute lord of the silence (dumah has that connotation) that opens with the grave, or She'ol (Hell); cf. Hag. 5a; Shab 152b. Dumah is the angel responsible for the heavenly soul about to be born into the lower world, 'a feather plucked from the pinions on high to be dropped into the lap of motherhood.'
"The ancient Arabs also put their faith in an angel of that name. . . .
"Generally speaking, it is the duty of the Angel of Death to deliver into the cavern of Dumah every soul whose term of life has ended. Each soul is placed in one of two categories: the righteous assigned to where all is bliss and the rest, the wicked committed to the place of 'doom.' . . .
"In the realm of angelology, it is he who seizes the souls of the wicked and casts them down 'in the hollow of a sling' far into the depths of Hades. This he does week after week at the close of the Sabbath. . . .
"To the author of the Zohar, Dumah was originally the guardian angel of Egypt fleeing from the Divine decree, as described in Ex. XII, 12, he was dispatched to the nether world as president of the spirits of the dead. In mythology, Dumah is the name of one of the seven gates of Hell, through which enter all that are guilty of slander."
The more direct commentary on the story reveals the Jewish thinking.
". . . we must still bear in mind that even the most allegorical of the tales have factual elements in them, and it is difficult to determine, in any given tale, where the author meant to report facts, and where he was merely allegorising. . . . But we can say that imagination also has its rationale, and aggadic tales, however, imaginative in form, are inherently rationalistic as pursuing a defined moral or religious aim. In this case, the Aggada, with all its imagery, seeks to impress upon the reader or listener the concept of 'life after death,' a fundamental tenant of Judaism and, as its corollary, the idea that 'the dead know,' and the central argument is whether this knowledge is restricted to their own world, or extends to ours as well."
FASC. 26, Translated with commentary by Rabbi Dr. A. Ehrman., p. 424.
From this commentary, note that:
Opinions about Dumah vary and have apparently evolved from mythology.
Concepts were apparently developed from mythology where Arabs held similar views. This is not to say that Islam teaches this today. I don't know.
To Dumah are attributed characteristics which the Sacred Scriptures teach belong only to God. "All eyes" would imitate God's ability to see all that happens. Handling the wicked, according to the Bible, is God's work ro1219, ps14520, is1311.
The doctrine that "the dead know" is in direct contradiction to the truth God had given to the Jews, and to us, through Solomon's book, Ecclesiastes: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward. . . ." (9:5). See on ec0905.
Excerpts from Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades translated by H. Stebbing, D.D.
Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is the place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of the world does not shine. . . . This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behaviour and manners.
In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire. . . .
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/12/03 09:42 PM
Actually Stan, The actual event described in Luke 8:28 is what is the issue here, not the parable in Luke 16 about The Rich Man and Lazarus.
However, since you brought that up, I would like to interject a few facts about that story.
Here are the concepts that Jesus presented:
1. The spirits of the dead going to heaven or hell
2. The communication or awareness between those in heaven and hell
3. That hell and heaven are or were literal places (at least at that time)
4. That ones acceptance of the gospel and how we treat others determines of we go to heaven or hell at death.
Now many like to say that this was just an un-factual story told by Jesus to make a point, which it very well may be. However, If we believe this we must also have to believe that Jesus believed in the ends justifying the means. In other words, we can do whatever we want as long as the outcome is noble. So we could lie and cheat if it helped save someone’s life, etc..
Now you may be saying that Jesus did not support that type of philosophy, and I agree. But it not, then how do you explain Jesus teaching unbiblical concepts, outlined above, in order to teach the biblical concepts of showing love for fellow man?
So if you believe that Luke 16 does not outline true biblical facts, then you have to explain why Jesus would teach unbiblical facts to teach a biblical fact (ends justifying the means)? You also have to explain why Jesus never, in any of his other parables, taught unbiblical facts or concepts to teach a biblical fact.
The SDA explanation of this passage forces us to believe Jesus supported the ends justifying the means and that Luke 16 was an anomaly – because in no other parable did Jesus teach, or use as example, ANY unbiblical ideas or concepts.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/13/03 06:46 PM
COL 263.2
In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/13/03 06:57 PM
God used strange ways to reach people with the truth - Abraham and Isaac, Hosea and Gomer, Ezekiel and human feces, etc - which I'm sure do not illustrate how God wants us to live or do things normally. Jesus' use of a popular misconception to illusrate the truth is not so out of the ordinary. Paul used an unknown god to illustrate the truth. Not so weird. Jesus also told the Jews, as a preface to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, to make friends with the unrighteous to ease their stress in future.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/15/03 09:29 PM
quote:
COL 263.2
In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him.
So you are saying that Jesus taught or supported unbiblical ideas?
Notice that the disciples that were there must have also believed what the other people listening did as well since they asked him no questions after the story (compare this to when Jesus told the disciples that all food was clean).
So what you are saying is that all the people there had the wrong perception of the state of the dead and Jesus contributed to that perception by using it in a story and never corrected their error?
What other story of Jesus’ did he use unbiblical examples or scenarios to make a biblical point?
I think you will find that in no other story did Jesus ever teach or support unbiblical principles to teach biblical principles. I also think that most people would not support the idea that Jesus used their faulty understanding of something to teach them something WITHOUT correcting that error.
Lastly, the issue is not one of being “strange” or odd teaching. It’s one of being differently against other biblical teaching.
So you are in a difficult position because you believe the bible support soul sleep as a biblical principle, and in Luke 16 Jesus teaches or supports a totally different view.
So it’s not that Jesus was saying something weird, but that he was saying something directly against what you believe the bible teaches. THAT would then be against biblical teaching, if you were honest about it.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/15/03 09:46 PM
Lobo, admittedly Jesus' use of this parable is difficult to understand. But if we assume that He used this parable to teach the truth about the state of the dead then we run into problems with the many other texts which teach otherwise. Given the bulk of inspired testimony in favor of soul sleep I believe it makes sense to accept Sister White's take on why Jesus told this parable without also correcting their unbiblical view of the state of the dead.
How do you explain the examples I gave above of other times when God used unusual methods to teach truth?
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/16/03 01:10 AM
Mike, like I stated before, it’s not an issue of unusual tactics. It’s and issue of being biblical or unbiblical.
However, you stated “But if we assume that He used this parable to teach the truth about the state of the dead then we run into problems with the many other texts which teach otherwise”
Can you outline for me what other texts are contrary to Jesus’ statements in Luke 16?
Also, I think we are getting off topic with this and should probably stay with the abyss issue.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/16/03 02:30 AM
Okay, it's back to the abyss. Hey, that didn't come out right. Ha! At any rate, the texts that establish the state of the dead have been quoted dozens of times on other threads where you have been discussing it. Certainly you can agree that the information contained in this parable is new and unusual. Nowhere else in the Bible does it talk about flaming disembodied spirits conversing with others in heaven and begging for a drop of water to cool their tongue. Have you ever read the Catholic embellishment of this scenario? It'll scare the heebie-jeebies outta ya!
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/17/03 07:29 AM
quote:
Certainly you can agree that the information contained in this parable is new and unusual. Nowhere else in the Bible does it talk about flaming disembodied spirits conversing with others in heaven and begging for a drop of water to cool their tongue.
Yes it is unique in that aspect, which makes it all the more telling that none of those listening to Jesus at the time raised ANY questions about this story. If this was such a foreign concept to those Jews present, who understood the OT law and prophets, why no questions from them?
Compare this lack of response to a seemingly new concept to the large response to a much more down to earth issue like the kosher laws in Mark 7:14-19. Notice here that they must have pestered Jesus or really been out of line because he asks them if they are “dull” lacked intelligence.
So either the state of the dead a presented by Jesus in Luke 16 was the common understanding among Jews, which means it would have come from the OT law or prophets, or Jesus presented a new concept and was met with no response.
Good exegesis would indicate that the former scenario is more reasonable considering the context.
Lastly, I don’t believe there are texts that refute any of the concepts Jesus presented in Luke 16 specifically. Those texts are just being misapplied. So if you want to post one I can show you what I mean.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/17/03 06:28 PM
Lobo, please choose anyone of the many texts quoted elswhere on the state of dead to demonstrate your point. If there are other places where the Bible talks about deceased disembodied spirits capable of carrying on a conversation I would be interested in reading it too.
By the way, did you ever decide where and what the abyss is? If I remember right you do not believe it's earth?
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/22/03 08:15 PM
quote:
Lobo, please choose anyone of the many texts quoted elswhere on the state of dead to demonstrate your point. If there are other places where the Bible talks about deceased disembodied spirits capable of carrying on a conversation I would be interested in reading it too.
Well Ok.
Revelation 6:9-11
"And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."
Isaiah 14
“How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, "Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down." 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us." 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.”
Ezek 32
“20 "They shall fall in the midst of those who are slain by the sword. She is given over to the sword; they have drawn her and all her hordes away. 21 "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'”
More?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 01:49 AM
Lobo,
I haven't looked at all those texts in their context, however, this one is too obvious for me not to ask you a question.
quote:
Isaiah 14
“How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, "Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down." 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us." 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.”
So, Lobo, are you also saying that the pine trees and cedars of Lebanon of verse 8 actually exult and speak? What you say of verse 9 would also need to be said of verse 8.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 03:04 AM
Good point Daryl, I didn't notice that. But just because that text is imagery, does that then mean the entire passage is as well?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 05:06 AM
Yes, more - only this time please avoid passages that use symbolism. Such passages personify all kinds of inanimate things and should not be used to prove that trees, rocks and graves can talk. Otherwise one might get the idea that blood can talk.
Genesis
4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/24/03 07:27 AM
Well Mike, how am I supposed to do that? I feel that any text that you don’t agree with you will determine is symbolic and not literal. This method of exegesis that SDA’s use is one of my main issues with Adventism in that they tend to change the meaning of a text based on what EGW had stated about it and not the writer’s intent or the context.
That is why many other “main stream” Christians don’t understand or believe the SDA doctrine, because they just read the bible and accept it as stated and do not try and change the meaning from literal to symbolic based on external parameters.
Having stated this, I will still post a text:
In 1 Sam 28 Samuel brings Saul back from the dead. Many feel that this was an evil angel, but that idea is refuted by the fact that the spirit actually supports God’s plan and relays a message from God to Samuel, which supported God’s plan and what he wanted Samuel to do.
So unless the evil angel was playing on both teams, that was not an evil angel. It was either a Godly angel or actually Saul.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 08:02 PM
I agree that symbolic passages contain encoded meaning that is literal. But to insist trees, rocks, graves and blood can talk misses the point. I'm not saying you believe this. In the case of Samuel's supposed reappearance I am concerned that a pagan witch was consulted. God's law strictly prohibits witchcraft. Why would He condone it in the case of Samuel?
Exodus
22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Deuteronomy
18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
18:12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
1 Samuel
28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.
28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 08:05 PM
It's obvious that the trees and rocks aren't talking. If 'mainstream' pop-culture just add water Christianity has an issue with that well...It's never too late to read what the whole Bible has to say , but then again these are the same Christians who think the Bible is just the NT..
![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif)
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 08:18 PM
quote:
Why would He condone it in the case of Samuel?
Don’t know?
Why would the spirit of Samuel or an evil angel do God’s will?
quote:
but then again these are the same Christians who think the Bible is just the NT..
In terms of salvation and being saved, what is there in the OT that has any effect on being saved? All a believer needs to know to be saved in contained in the person of Jesus Christ. And the account of Jesus Christ is the NT.
The advantage of the OT is that it shows how Jesus fulfilled all the appointed feasts and items of the mosaic law. However, unless you are Jewish, knowing this doesn’t really help.
So in terms of being a gentile believer, all I need to know if really in the NT. Only those who are Jewish or think they are “neoJews” need the OT.
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 08:29 PM
It's not about being a gentile believer or any other "insert favorite label here", but about being a Christian who can rightly divide the Word of truth. No 'New Testament' existed in the day's that Jesus was alive as we know it today, but all quotes and references were made form the Old Testament.
quote:
John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Notice Jesus did not say 'Search the new testament in the future', but said 'Search the Scriptures'.
Its very easy and simple, but when trying to make parts of the Bible useless then one is falling right into the snares that satan has left for those who stray from the Word of God.
God Bless,
Will
added verses 46,47
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 09:11 PM
quote:
No 'New Testament' existed in the day's that Jesus was alive as we know it today, but all quotes and references were made form the Old Testament.
That is because Jesus was focusing on those people that those quotes actually meant something to, the Jews:
Matthew 15
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
quote:
Notice Jesus did not say 'Search the new testament in the future', but said 'Search the Scriptures'.
Notice that Jesus only said this to Jews.
Now notice what Jesus said when he was focusing on all mankind:
“19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt 28
Notice that He stated nothing about the OT, only that the disciples should teach men what Jesus taught them.
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 09:12 PM
So only some parts of the Bible are for Jews then?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 09:16 PM
Lobo, Satan quoted scripture when he was trying to ensnare Jesus in the wilderness. Apparently the evil angels will do whatever it takes to tempt us to sin. Why not mix just enough truth to make a lie believable? The devil isn't stupid. He even poses as an angel of light to deceive us.
Matthew
24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2 Corinthians
11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Posted By: Will
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 09:17 PM
Even your 'favorite' writer quotes from the Old Testament Lobo, so why do you pick and choose and try and make the Bible obsolete except for maybe a few verses?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/23/03 10:47 PM
This topic is travelling all over the place.
Let us try and keep our topics on topic.
If a side topic develops, then create a new topic on it and continue that topic there.
As I see confusion developing on who the Bible is actually for, perhaps a new topic should be created on What Is The Truth About The Bible?
I think I will create a new topic under that name and ask that you discuss that there instead of here.
Posted By: Lobo
Re: What Is The Truth About The Abyss: What & Where Is It? - 12/24/03 01:03 AM
Good pint Daryl, I can't asnwer those questions and stay on topic. Perhaps that belongs under the law post?