God: The Holy Spirit

Posted By: Alpendave

God: The Holy Spirit - 12/21/05 10:08 PM

SDA Fundamental Beliefs 2 & 5:

2. The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

5. The Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

Some of our early pioneers did not believe in the Holy Spirit as a distinct, 3rd person of the Godhead, but rather as the power of God. Some, interpret Jesus' discourse on the Comforter (parakletos) as referring to when He would come to the disciples in the form of the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Comforter and Jesus are one and the same Person. The Holy Spirit is the shared Spirit between the Father and Son, the only 2 divine beings in the universe.

What is the truth about the Holy Spirit. Is HE a person of the Godhead, or is IT merely the breath and power of God?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 12:04 AM

quote:
Some of our early pioneers did not believe in the Holy Spirit as a distinct, 3rd person of the Godhead, but rather as the power of God.

What is the truth about the Holy Spirit. Is HE a person of the Godhead, or is IT merely the breath and power of God?

To your last question, why not both?

You've asked several key questions, so here goes.

Actually, the pioneers always believed that the Holy Spirit was a person, but early on were extra careful not to identify the Spirit of God as the same kind of person as God or Christ are, and so avoided stating God's Spirit to be a person. God's influential presence and power in the universe through his Spirit is clear to understand, after all; thus we experience God first hand, as well. Later, when questions to the church leaders about the personhood of the Holy Spirit persisted, the answer given clearly stated that God's Spirit isn't a person like God is, while yet having individual personality, separate from God's own person.

quote:
Some, interpret Jesus' discourse on the Comforter (parakletos) as referring to when He would come to the disciples in the form of the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Comforter and Jesus are one and the same Person.

The passage about the Comforter wasn't explained by our pioneers as the Spirit of Jesus and Jesus being the same person. Jesus' Spirit goes where Jesus cannot physically be, and represents him to his people. They are separate persons, like God and Jesus are, but the Spirit is absolutely not a person in the same way that Father and Son are persons: The Spirit of God and of Jesus carries their power, love, and righteousness everywhere since he doesn't have a body like they have and thus isn't physically limited.

quote:
The Holy Spirit is the shared Spirit between the Father and Son, the only 2 divine beings in the universe.

Why shouldn't the Spirit be shared between God and Jesus, and be the divine Spirit that both have? That's the basis of their divinity and harmonious holiness, isn't it? Where does it say in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy that the Spirit is a being? She's clear to state that the Father and Son are the only beings in heaven to share God's counsels.

Since the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, it isn't a being (ie. body) but is a mysterious person with a known personality.

You set the stage well for discussing this living personality of the heavenly trio, so what of my response?

Posted By: Cheri Fritz

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 01:11 AM

Greetings,

Ezekiel 8:1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, [as] I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.
8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where [was] the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

In Ezekiel 8:3:
We have a form of an hand that is visible, and then we read that the spirit lifted him up between the earth and the heaven. That hand is also being referred to as Lord God in Ezekiel 1:8; yet later it says that this is the spirit that lifted him up.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 03:26 AM

Thank you, Cheri, for that text. The Spirit of God takes any variety of forms when appearing to believers: dove is the most famous, but Pentacost involved tongues of fire on their heads. Most dramatic was the pillar of fire or cloud in the exodus.

This Ezek text is very dramatic, and the glory covering the appearance of a man's body. Could the spirit take the appearance of a person? Or there's only a hand that the spirit took the form of.

So, is this the form that the spirit chose to appear in?

Posted By: Cheri Fritz

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 01:55 PM

Greetings Brother Colin,

I truly believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

So my faith says, that the Holy Spirit has a form and has the power to change form. Just as God the Father has power and Christ the Son has power.

The God I know is full of love and compassion. They work in harmony so well together that they share names.

What truly concerns myself is that I heed the education of the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit teaches God's own Holy Word. That my eyes are pointed to Christ Jesus always. There is very little time to remember our true education "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:29.

To me it is not a great concern what God looks like, we have descriptions enough. Christ came to give the understanding that God is love. And that His appearance was only His appearance and not the understanding of who God is.

Peace be with you,
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 05:26 PM

I agree with Cheri. God is triune, Fater, Jesus and Spirit, coequal and coeternal. The question of what form or shape each of these chooses to be known to man under is, (would the correct english idiom be "red herring"?, a smokescreen, a diversion).
Also in this thread and in the one about Jesus, I cannot understand the preoccupation with what some people 150 years ago thought and teached about it. Sure, they where the founders of our denomination but as far as I understood their work, if they had gone about the same way we have been doing in these threads, there would be no SDA church today. These people studied the bible as thoroughly as they possibly could, or so it is told. Had they spent most of their time studying what their church founders, Withfield, the Wesleys, Luther, and whomever the founders of the Baptist church was, what these other people tought and teached, we'd most likely still be baptist and methodist and lutheran.
I am not saying that it is wrong to study the works of SDA pioneers nor methodist or baptist pioneers (I enjoy reading about these people myself at times), but all such study should come secound to the bible. Especially when studying such a foundational topic as this one, who God is.

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/22/05 10:39 PM

Thank you, both. Yes, the premis is negligently taken for granted: God is love, so much so that he gave his only begotten Son for the sin of our world - the only planet of his living creation that has rebelled after being deceived and 'bribed' by Satan. "'bribed'" in the sense that Adam faced a dilemma: lose Eve or lose fellowship with God, and his instinct kicked in...I'm not losing sight of the great controversy.

And, Thomas, our theological roots in Methodism make a very important contrast to lutheransim, as Ps Larry Kirkpatrick has brought out in his study on the children's Sabbath School Gracelink Curriculum's ideology, now 10 years underway. His study confirms our pioneers' advance on Wesley which today we are letting go of bit by bit in favour of Lutheranism's differences to Wesley: Luther's followers did him an injustice, and eventually abandoned faith that works in obedience as the heart of the Gospel. God did lead the SDA pioneers, but it's a Bible and history lesson.

The Spirit is always assumed to be God's or Christ's. That all are divine isn't the issue, but how the Bible presents the Spirit. The Spirit of God doesn't have a body in the Bible, but frequently adopts a temporary shape. We used to exclude any possibility of a regular bodily shape like a person, but now it is allowed by emphasis on the Spirit's personhood without reservations about its wholly unconventional personhood as we properly used to do. It is equally unbiblical to exclude the Spirit also being God's own invisible power and influence in us or throughout the universe.

"Triune" isn't precise enough, despite being a sincere abbreviation for us laity. A little study and thought covers the divine reality of the Father, his Son and their Holy Spirit. The Spirit is our communication link to God's throne in Jesus' name, and he teaches us of God's truths. We just mustn't make the Spirit out to be more than the Bible reveals.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/23/05 12:07 AM

She says the Holy Spirit is a person, right? How can someone be a person without being a being?

Posted By: John H.

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/23/05 05:50 AM

Biblical evidences that the Holy Spirit is a Person:

He moves -- Genesis 1:2
He comes upon people -- Luke 1:35
He dwells -- John 14:17
He teaches -- John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:13
He testifies -- John 15:26
He reproves -- John 16:8
He guides into truth -- John 16:13
He speaks -- John 16:13, Acts 8:29, Acts 10:19
He glorifies Christ -- John 16:14
He gives utterance -- Acts 2:4
He can be lied to -- Acts 5:3
He catches away -- Acts 8:39
He commands -- Acts 11:12, Acts 13:2
He sends forth -- Acts 13:4
He forbids -- Acts 16:6
He suffers not -- Acts 16:7
He bears witness -- Romans 8:16
He helps our infirmities -- Romans 8:26
He makes intercession for us -- Romans 8:26
He groans -- Romans 8:26
He has a mind -- Romans 8:27
He searches -- 1 Corinthians 2:10
He knows the things of God -- 1 Corinthians 2:11
He divides to every man severally as He will -- 1 Corinthians 12:11
He can be grieved -- Ephesians 4:30
He can be vexed -- Isaiah 63:10
He renews -- Titus 3:5

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/23/05 07:26 AM

From Tom

quote:
She says the Holy Spirit is a person, right? How can someone be a person without being a being?

You're not being a devil's advocate here, are you? [Wink]

To answer your one liner shall take a few more lines, but they're worth every line. And I'm highlighting that sentence so you spot it immediately. Your question is asked frequently.

The Holy Spirit just isn't a being, but has the personality of a person, since so much the Bible has revealed, and Ellen White stays true to that revealed limit. She doesn't just write that it is a person.

Acts of the Apostles, p.51,52

quote:
It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is....The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden.

Here she resists the hypothetical question of "what the Holy Spirit is", and discourages Christians from putting uninspired, human explanations to the mystery of the Spirit of God.

Special Testimonies Series B No.7, p.63, has that statement that deserves to be memorised like Scripture.

quote:
The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.
The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested....
The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour.

Notice she only describes the Spirit as manifesting God's power and divine grace in believers - his work is our concern (of course) since we are God's instruments, but there's no licence in the Bible to make the Spirit a being.

All her contemporaries backed her view of Scripture, with the exception of John Harvey Kellogg.

While Kellogg is now infamous for advocating pantheism in 1903 or so, his mistake was principlly teaching that the Holy Spirit was a being. The leading brethern rejected the notion of the Holy Spirit as a being, and Ellen White's Special Testimonies Series B - much of it written for the Kellogg crisis - clearly refutes a belief in the Spirit being a being, as excerpted above.

Kellogg wrote to A G Daniels (then GC President) in Oct 1903

quote:
As far as I can fathom, the difficulty which is found in the Living Temple, the whole thing may be simmered down to this question: is the Holy Ghost a person. You say no. I had supposed the Bible said this for the reason that the personal pronoun he is used in speaking of the Holy Ghost. Sister White uses the pronoun he and has said in as many words that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead. How the Holy Ghost can be the third person and not be a person at all is difficult for me to see.

After much face to face discussion between the leading brethern and Kellogg, G I Butler (a former GC President) wrote to him in Apr 1904

quote:
...it (referring to the Holy Spirit) comes forth from the Father and the Son. It is not a person walking around on foot, or flying as a literal person, in any such sense as Christ and the Father are - at least, if it is, it is utterly beyond my comprehension of the meaning of language or words

Back to Ellen White's other contemporaries, Uriah Smith, Editor of the Sabbath Review & Advent Herald for a long time, wrote in a 'Review' article in 1890.

quote:
Christ is a person, now officiating as priest in the sanctuary in heaven; and yet he says that wherever two or three are gathered in his name, he is there in the midst. Mt. 18:20. How? Not personally, but by his Spirit.

In one of Christ's discourses (John, chapters 14,15, and 16) this Spirit is personified as 'the Comforter,' and as such has the personal and relative pronouns, 'he,' 'him,' and 'whom,' applied to it. But usually it is spoken of in a way to show that it cannot be a person, like the Father and the Son. For instance, it is often said to be 'poured out' and 'shed abroad.' But we never read about God or Christ being poured out or shed abroad. (Review and Herald, Oct. 28,1890).

J A Morton wrote in 1891, regarding the Spirit's divinity

quote:
The Holy Spirit is divine because it proceeds from divinity. You can no more separate divinity from the Spirit of God and Christ than you can separate divinity from God and Christ. It is, therefore, the presence of the Spirit in the words of God's promises which enable us to receive the divine nature from those promises." (Signs of the Times, Oct. 26, 1891, p.342).

John N Loughborough, our first missionary beyond North America's shores, wrote in 1898

quote:
The Spirit of God is spoken of in the Scriptures as God's representative- the power by which he works, the agency by which all things are upheld. This is clearly expressed by the Psalmist...Psa. 139:7-10. We learn from this language that when we speak of the Spirit of God we are really speaking of his presence and power." (Review and Herald, Sept. 13, 1898, p. 690).

Mrs S M I Henry wrote

quote:
Q. Do you think the Spirit of God is a person, or is it simply the power by which God works, and which he has given to man for his use? "A. The pronouns used in connection with the Spirit must lead us to conclude that he is a person,-the personality of God which is the source of all power and life." (THE ABIDING SPIRIT, 1899)

and denotes the Spirit's person as "the personality of God which" - divine nature has a personality which is non-personal: the third person of the Godhead.

M C Wilcox, Editor of Signs of the Times for 22 years, wrote

quote:
28.THE PERSONALITY OF THE SPIRIT Ques. 1. Some say the Holy Spirit is a person; others say He is a personality; and others, a power only. Till how long should this be a matter of discussion? Ans. 1. The personality of the Holy Spirit will probably be a matter of discussion always. Sometimes the Spirit is mentioned as being 'poured out,' as in Acts 2. All through the Scriptures, the Spirit is represented as being the operating power of God ... The reason why the Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit as a person, it seems to us, is that it brings to us, and to every soul that believes, the personal presence of our Lord Jesus Christ...
Wherever God's children are, there is the Spirit - not an individual person, as we look upon persons, but having the power to make present the Father and the Son. (Questions And Answers Vol.11, 1919, 1938 editions, p.37-39. In the 1945 edition p.33-35)

Again there's this nugget from M C Wilcox (not the 'Wilcox' who was editor of the Review)

quote:
Ques. 187. The Holy Spirit and Ministering Spirits "What is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the ministering spirits (angels), or are they the same? Ans. The Holy Spirit is the mighty energy of the Godhead, the life and power of God flowing out from Him to all parts of the universe, and thus making a living connection between His throne and all creation. As is expressed by another: 'The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ.' It thus makes Christ everywhere present.

To use a crude illustration, just as a telephone carries the voice of a man, and so makes that voice present miles away, so the Holy Spirit carries with it all the potency of Christ in making Him everywhere present with all His power, and revealing Him to those in harmony with His law. Thus the Spirit is personified in Christ and God, but never revealed as a separate person. [That is, as we think of persons]

Never are we told to pray to the Spirit; but to God for the Spirit. Never do we find in the Scriptures prayers to the Spirit, but for the Spirit." (Questions And Answers Gathered From The Question Corner Department Of The Signs Of The Times, Pacific Press, 1911 p.18-182).

The Spirit brings the presence of Christ (but not his physical person, obviously), in the name of the Father, to the spiritual awareness of believers, but he himself is only personal perhaps in manifesting the presence & power of Christ: The manifestation of the presence of God's power and grace with the personality to testify of Christ's truth and make God's mercy & righteousness felt. Thus the world can sense that we have been with Jesus, after a spiritual experience.

How's that then, or am I still alone in the dog house? [Wink]

[ December 23, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/23/05 01:58 PM

Colin

You managed to reply to Johns list of bible references with a list of SDA pioneer reference. Honestly, which of these has precedence in authority?

Using your line of argument one can ask the followup question, was Jesus a person before taking on a human body some 2000 years ago? Is God Father a person for while He sits on a throne in heaven, He also Jeremiah 23 24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:06 AM

Yes, looks it, doesn't it, but John's wasn't a one liner: was replying to Tom; John got in inbetween, and I don't disagree with him either. Hopefully I've answered Tom's question, tho'!

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:12 AM

Well, after these threads there cant be any honest critic of catholics or others for building theology on church tradition rather than upon the plain scripture. Yet one difference removed..

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:16 AM

quote:
Using your line of argument one can ask the followup question, was Jesus a person before taking on a human body some 2000 years ago? Is God Father a person for while He sits on a throne in heaven, He also Jeremiah 23 24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

Yes, to both.

But, unless you're pulling my leg, where did I say Jesus was the begotten Spirit of God, or that the Spirit of God is the same person as the Father or the Son? Isn't it obvious that the creation is sustained by the power of God's Spirit present throughtout the universe?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:51 AM

It is very clear, to me, that both the Bible and the SOP confirm the SDA Fundamental beliefs, quoted at the beginning of this thread, regarding the trinity and the Holy Spirit.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/23/05 08:05 PM

Colin,

If I understand your position correctly, that the Spirit isnt a person at all but an it, an apersonal "artificial intelligence of God and Jesus", and that the prof of this is His/its lack of a humanly recoginseable body. All this backed up with a piece here and a piece there of pioneer quoting without any hint of context.
Im in no position to pull your or anyone elses legg until I can fathom your thinking, the changing from a triune Godhead to a dual Godhead and this using 95% extrabiblical sources.

Oh well,, I guess Ill just have to continue to try an figgure this out.

/Thomas

Posted By: John H.

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:04 AM

Some Spirit of Prophecy evidences that the Holy Spirit is a Person:

"Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, converting, enlightening, sanctifying, would be His donation."
{ST 12-01-98 para. 2}

---

"In describing to His disciples the office work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because of the abundant help He had provided for His church. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church."
{DA 671.2}

---

"The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon the church."
{RH 05-19-04 para. 3}

---

"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds." -- Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)
{2SAT 137.6}
{Ev 616.5}

---

"The Holy Spirit is a person; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God."
{20MR 68.5}
{Ev 616.6}

---

"The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.'" -- Manuscript 20, 1906.
{20MR 69.1}
{Ev 617.1}

---

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit."
{SpTA10 37.1} (1897)
{Ev 617.2}

---

"The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."
{SpTB07 63.2}
{Ev 615.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 07:26 AM

Colin, I appreciate this discussion. It's easy for us to be dogmatic about things we don't understand. Certainly none of understand the nature of divinity, and there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, as what you quoted brings out. However, it's not just the Holy Spirit that we do not understand; we're just as clueless when it comes to the Father and the Son as well. The best we can do is to understand in our limited ways what God has revealed to us.

John brought out some of the quotes I had in mind regarding the Holy Spirit being a person. Also the quotes from Scripture bring out the He does things one ordinarily ascribes to a personal being, such as grieving, and so forth. That "He is as much a person as God is a person" also brings out that He is a person.

Here's where the rubber meets the road I think. Is the Holy Spirit someone that can think and act indepently of God the Father or Christ the Son? When the Godhead meets in conference, how many are present? Two or three? The ideas of how many are expressed? Two or three?

I believe the answer is three.

This is an aside. Regarding the use of the word "trinity", I think there is baggage there associated with the Catholic position, which is why EGW didn't use the term. The Catholic position is very different than ours, and I don't like the use of the word, as it implies we believe as they do, which we don't. Their understanding of the term is tied into their belief of an immortal soul.

Posted By: Dr.Glenn

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 01:45 PM

Dear Tom:
Zechariah 6:13 says: "and the counsel of peace shall be bewteen them both". It does not say that the counsel of peace shall be between them three. In Patriarchs and Prophets, page 36 it says: "...none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will." In Great Controversy, page 493 it says: "Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, - one in nature, in character, and in purpose, - the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God".
Glenn

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 04:19 PM

quote:
Zechariah 6: 9 The word of the LORD came to me: 10 "Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, [d] Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen [e] son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the LORD. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the LORD, and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the LORD your God."

Posted By: Alpendave

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/25/05 07:55 AM

Colin, This is what others are saying about the Spirit: http://themeofthebible.com/articles/David%20Clayton/The%20Holy%20Spirit%20Of%20God.html

I took this from a page on the themeofthebible.com website.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 10:48 PM

Yes, Tom, that looks alright on first reading, and I know I agree with the webmaster over there.

Dr Glenn!! Thank you, thank you, thank you for your Bible study on entering the trinity thread, and for joining this 'Holy Spirit' thread. All those texts are very helpful.

MM, no doubt the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead, but what sort of person is it as a personality? Not like the Father or the Son are persons, that much we can say.

The Bible and SOP teach the trinity doctrine which we now teach?? How, as the Son is no longer begotten at all, except he is in Scripture, etc. Our previous teaching of the Godhead involved three persons as revealed in the Bible. There is a difference: hence this discussion.

Thomas, you sought clarification:

quote:
If I understand your position correctly, that the Spirit isnt a person at all but an it, an apersonal "artificial intelligence of God and Jesus", and that the prof of this is His/its lack of a humanly recoginseable body.

No....

Both the power of God in the universe - sustaining creation, especially grace sustaining this world, and God's presence in the lives of his people. So, isn't the Spirit of God both facilitating God's personal presence in our lives, and manifesting the grace & power of God for & in us, etc.

The Bible only mentions the Spirit as the Spirit of God representing Father and Son to their intelligent creatures in God's personal absence, powerful to make God's presence real in our lives with God's power for us. Early Adventism went no further.

Tom:

quote:
Here's where the rubber meets the road I think. Is the Holy Spirit someone that can think and act indepently of God the Father or Christ the Son? When the Godhead meets in conference, how many are present? Two or three? The ideas of how many are expressed? Two or three?

What did Jesus say the Spirit of truth would do? Since Jesus himself is Biblical truth - as this very week's lesson brings out in Jn 14:6, the Spirit of that truth testifies of Jesus' truth, and not of himself. Thus The Spirit speaks for God and Jesus, not of himself. It doesn't thus act independently of the Father or his Son.

Jesus spoke of being one with his Father but didn't include being one with his Spirit. Rather, by the Spirit the Father and his Son are one in character and purpose, while they are one in nature by sharing true divinity, though divinity has the divine Spirit, of course, as far as is revealed. Counsels of the Godhead list two beings, in the Bible and the SOP. The Spirit implements the counsels of God, but doesn't discuss those counsels since he is God's presence for believers and not God himself in person.

Overall certainly we are virtually dealing with the incomprehensible when dealing with God, but I'm trying only to be as clear about Biblical revelation as possible without going beyond it.

Does that help, everyone?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/24/05 11:00 PM

Colin, do you believe there is enough inspired evidence to believe that the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/25/05 01:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Colin, do you believe there is enough inspired evidence to believe that the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person?

I've already said, yes. You appear to be asking about the Spirit being a divine person (not disputed) instead of it not being a person just like the Father and his Son? The Spirit proceeding from God excludes it from being a person just like God and his Son, so there's not enough evidence from inspiration for the Spirit being a person just like God.

Posted By: Alpendave

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/25/05 11:52 PM

The Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the Godhead. I think we are straying into semantics over what is meant by "person". Though the Spirit may not have the same substance as the Father and Son, yet, HE can certainly have a distinct mind and thought process from theirs.

One cannot read the Bible without seeing that there is order of function in all things. Though the Spirit might not act indipendently from the Father and the Son in fulfilling His role in the plan of salvation, He certainly has an individual mind whereby He comes into aggreement with the plans worked out by the Father and the Son.

The fact that the Spirit is not mentioned in the councils of Heaven does not mean He did not participate in them, either. You have to look at things from the context of the Great Controversy. The rebellion did not involve enmity agains the 3rd person of the Godhead, but the 2nd. Yet, Sister White does mention that all Three were moved with compassion for the human race and that all Three gave themselves for its redemption. Why did she not say "both the Father and the Son" were moved with compassion instead? If the Holy Spirit is not a distinct being of the Godhead, then IT has no compassion nor ability to give ITSELF for anything.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/26/05 12:46 AM

Good point Dave.

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/26/05 06:50 AM

Sorry, Dave and Thomas, but you're both failing to spot the point about "person".

Dave, your post has effective contradictions because of the theological terms you used, like here

quote:
The Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the Godhead. I think we are straying into semantics over what is meant by "person". Though the Spirit may not have the same substance as the Father and Son,

. Yes, a distinct person of the Godhead, but no, the Spirit - for the very reason of being a distinct person of the Godhead - has the same substance as the other persons, when "substance" refers to having divine nature, as all three do have. I'm not seeking to touch on same or similar substance debate, or other like issues: just show that you appear accidentally to have removed the Spirit's divine identity [Wink]

.

The conroversy is very much rather about what sort of person the spirit is. Never is it called a being, but person or personality or Spirit: "being" means a regular physique, and Adventist literature before the Great War emphasised merely the personal Spirit of God proceeding from the Father or Son without a body. Your closing comment

quote:
If the Holy Spirit is not a distinct being of the Godhead, then IT has no compassion nor ability to give ITSELF for anything.

unwittingly used "being" for "person": the Spirit isn't a being but a person.

In her comments on the heavenly counsels of God, Sister White clearly restricts it to 2 beings. The Spirit's participation would be mentally facilitating the agreement between God and Jesus and empowering its implementation as God's power where he is not physically present, while bringing God's presence to his intelligent creation.

The Spirit is an irregular sort of person, helping to implementing God's will when God's on his throne or otherwise 'tied down' in one spot. That's the extent of Biblical revelation, and not the speculation of any number of trinitarian formulations available today.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 07:21 AM

Colin, you mention the Holy Spirit not testifying of Himself, but rather of Christ. This implies He has a self of which He can testify.

If the Holy Spirit is simply Christ manifest as a spirit, then He would be saying in essence, "I will not testify of Myself, but will testify of Me." I know this is a strange sounding sentence, but hopefully the point I'm making is coming through OK.

When the Spirit of Prophecy says that the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God the Father is, or Jesus Christ, that seems to argue against the position you are suggesting, if I am understanding it correctly. "Person" by its very meaning implies individuality and the ability to act independently. One cannot speak of the "three persons" of the Godhead if there are only two. If when the Godhead meets in counsel there are only two minds present, then there are only two inviduals present as well, and hence only two persons of the Godhead.

One thing I agree with you about is that we are dealing with things above our heads. I share your desire not to go beyond what the Spirit of Prophecy or the Bible states, nor of being too dogmatic about things beyond our understanding. However, I'm having difficulty with some of the points you are making.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/26/05 09:32 PM

Yes, I should avoid sounding dogmatic, as I may appear to be. Still, this description of the Holy Spirit isn't some much above our heads: just a person while not a usual person. That's not complicated, is it? Just 'not a usual person'. [Officially though we don't make the short sentence of the Spirit's person a little longer to get this point out.... [Roll Eyes]

]

I appreciate you're trying to work that out, from what you wrote: a person, but not a person...? [Confused]

That's the question that doesn't go away, as that M C Wilcox excerpt noted. Inspiration is reasonably clear on the Holy Spirit being God's Spirit, even God's omnipresent, invisible agency: this Spirit's personality ain't normal: he's Christ's presence among us, his brethern, without Christ actually being here. It should be safe to call that divine magic. It's just not a conventional person since it proceeds from a physical person. Not ethereal, since that's earthly and natural, but the divine Spirit of and from God.

The Holy Spirit's testimony is about the truth of God in Christ. The Spirit of Christ speaks of Christ, as God's agency to us: The Spirit has no truth of its own to impart; he merely is God's presence, will, witness and power among us, facilitating our experience with God and our witness of God's truth. God's actions are the Father's will carried out by the Son through the agency of their Spirit. Perfect, active agreement, but all are divine for sharing the Father's divinity, not merely on the basis of that agreement - as we officially teach today.

Sorry, that was longer than I anticipated. God's personal agency isn't the same sort of person as God is. Is that simple enough?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/26/05 10:31 PM

quote:
Colin wrote:

The Spirit proceeding from God excludes it from being a person just like God and his Son, so there's not enough evidence from inspiration for the Spirit being a person just like God.

quote:
Sister White wrote:

"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds." -- Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {2SAT 137.6} {Ev 616.5}

Posted By: Alpendave

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/26/05 11:08 PM

I think the main issue is weather or not the Holy Spirit derives His existence from the Father.

Good quote Mountain Man. Here is another important quote:

"It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father." It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, "He shall not speak of Himself." John 15:26; 16:13.
The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden." {AA 52.1}

Posted By: Redfog

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 05:57 AM

"....Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden."

Is it possible that Mrs. White is telling us that this subject should be off limits? Just asking, not suggesting nor implying anything.

Redfog

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 08:30 AM

We can know as much about the Holy Spirit as has been revealed. One thing is clear and certain - He's as much a person as God is a person.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 10:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
We can know as much about the Holy Spirit as has been revealed. One thing is clear and certain - He's as much a person as God is a person.

Absolutely, while God's personal presence among us and within us, as produced by the power of his Spirit, necessarily means he cannot theologically, scientifically, and 'biologically' be just the same kind of physical person as God is a physical person.

Divinity is self-existent by nature, but the Spirit's divinity isn't based on eternal, separate self-existence from the Father and Christ, because the Spirit proceeds from them as their divine Spirit of their own, divine self-existenting nature. Where's the problem? [Confused]

...Have we made the divine trio more 'strained' than they really are, allowing our theologians to be scholarly in their detail with God rather than simply Biblical as our Bible teachers were until into the 1920's, and leaning on that scholarship ourselves?

The Spirit is divine, having proceeded from divinity, and is a person like God is but not a person just like God is. God's agency can't be both, as it powerfully upholds all of creation and he dwells in us spiritually, bringing us God's presence - which Jesus himself couldn't do, as a person just like God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 07:49 AM

Colin, it is obvious to me that your view of the Holy Spirit is at odds with the Bible and the SOP. I contrasted your view and the view of the SOP (see above). Your attempt to harmonize the expression "who is as much a person as God is a person" with your view does not make sense to me. How can you say a disembodied thing is like a physical thing - but not just like it?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 08:17 PM

quote:
Colin, it is obvious to me that your view of the Holy Spirit is at odds with the Bible and the SOP.

What's the point of a comment like this?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 08:23 PM

I wrote earlier:

quote:
"Person" by its very meaning implies individuality and the ability to act independently. One cannot speak of the "three persons" of the Godhead if there are only two. If when the Godhead meets in counsel there are only two minds present, then there are only two inviduals present as well, and hence only two persons of the Godhead.

Colin wrote that the Holy Spirit is a person as much as God is, but not a person just like God. I agree these are two different things, but this seems to be scratching where it doesn't itch. The word "person" connoates an individual being with the ability to act independently. Take this away and you don't have any sort of person, it appears to me.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 10:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Colin, it is obvious to me that your view of the Holy Spirit is at odds with the Bible and the SOP. I contrasted your view and the view of the SOP (see above). Your attempt to harmonize the expression "who is as much a person as God is a person" with your view does not make sense to me. How can you say a disembodied thing is like a physical thing - but not just like it?

Thanks for trying to get to grips with what I wrote, since you come from the opposite direction... [Big Grin]

I shall endeavour to forget that you wrote that first sentence. [Wink]

Your big question is of your own making, as you are putting words into my mouth. My view is not that the Spirit is "like a physical thing - but not just like it": I wrote that the Spirit is a person with a personality like God is, but not at all a physical being like he is.

The string of exerpts from our pioneers that I posted earlier are consistent in this line. Sister White accepted that line from her contemporaries since she was careful to express herself only in broad terms - which were the framework for the consistent line of her day, and took golden silence as her part in the more detailed advice published for the church, etc.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 11:12 PM

But, Tom, it itches with you, though you haven't noticed it: you just wrote

quote:
The word "person" connoates an individual being with the ability to act independently. Take this away and you don't have any sort of person, it appears to me.

Since you say you agree with my basic point - your opening line, is your understanding of "being" the Spirit's possession of his divine identity "in the fullness of the Godhead making manifest the power of divine grace to all those who receive and believe in Jesus as a personal Saviour", with a personal intelligence to testify of Christ's truth, etc, but not a 'being' as we understand human beings having bodies?

Your difficulty with a person not having a being sounds vaguely similar to the very confusion I quoted from Kellogg earlier, where he found himself resisted by the leading Brethern and Sister White for publishing that the Holy Spirit was a person with a body just like Father & Son.

On a connected, but unrelated point, which has grown beyond what I'd anticipated.

Which reminds me, since this thread is about Kellogg, actually, Kellogg made two mistakes: attributing a body to the Spirit, and thinking that God's presence as well as his power is manifested by the Spirit in sustaining all of inanimate & animate nature in creation and not just manifesting his power in doing so, while indeed bringing God's presence to his people through his Spirit. Perhaps Kellogg had no theological acumen for understanding the Godhead, as he couldn't intellectually separate God's presence and power with his people by the power of his Spirit from God's creative power upholding nature without God's presence also being manifested in naure.

This was the beginning of his mistaken view of God. Is it the case that today we have gone beyond SOP counsel, as here, in warning against the detail of Kellogg's book,

quote:
I say, and have ever said, that I will not engage in controversy with any one in regard to the nature and personality of God. Let those who try to describe God know that on such a subject silence is eloquence. Let the Scriptures be read in simple faith, and [Ilet each one form his conceptions of God from his inspired word[/I]. (Spalding and Magan’s unpublished manuscript testimonies 1985 (SPM.328-9))

...by the very attempt at an Adventist trinitarian formulation. Weren't the recorded consensus statements drafted by Uriah Smith in line with simple faith and its expression of Bible points? - while today we try too hard to be precise and overdo it spectacularly: hence the uproar of the last 20-30 years.

Let's let it be simple, and be satisfied with that, regardless of complaints about unorthodoxy from other denominations, since a bible study would settle the dispute.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/27/05 11:14 PM

But, Tom, it may even itch with you, though you haven't noticed it: you just wrote

quote:
The word "person" connoates an individual being with the ability to act independently. Take this away and you don't have any sort of person, it appears to me.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 03:39 AM

I'm not seeing the connection between what you are saying and what I'm asking. I'm not concerned with the physicality of the Spirit, but with His individuality. That is, if He is a person, then, given the ordinary definition of "person", He must be an individual with the capability of acting independently. That's what "person" means. Is there some other definition of "person" that I should be thinking of?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 08:09 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I'm not seeing the connection between what you are saying and what I'm asking. I'm not concerned with the physicality of the Spirit, but with His individuality. That is, if He is a person, then, given the ordinary definition of "person", He must be an individual with the capability of acting independently. That's what "person" means. Is there some other definition of "person" that I should be thinking of?

That's it: that's the nub of the issue...."Some other definition of 'person'." Else the Spirit's very identity as God's personal Spirit has no reliable link to God for that identity...

Unless we understand and agree that the divine Spirit proceeds from the Father & the Son's divine nature, to manifest his power and presence (appropriately) away from God's personal presence, the Spirit's individuality loses out on his divinity....the same issue arises out of the question of the Son's begottenness being discussed on the other thread.

Our Adventist version of the trinity detaches itself from classical trinitarianism on the basis of avoiding the latter's supposed philosophical flaws as they affected classical theology - tho' that classical theology believed God to be linked to his Son and for their Spirit to be part of their divine persons - somewhat similar to what we ourselves used to believe collectively. Also, two of the earliest post-Apostolic writers, Justin Martyr and Ireneus, the latter the disciple of the former, were linked to the Apostle John, whose disciple Justin was. Both these writers believed similarly to the Nicene Creed's understanding of the Godhead. Greek philosophy unhelpful for Christian theology - is there actually a link, since the Apostle's disciples in this case point disagree that they were taught inaccurate theology, and they were taught by John & spoke Greek!

Now we teach the Father and Son are not literal titles at all, but terms of endearment between them which we can understand from our viewpoint by their human analogy - but no analogious family relationship for them. Both metaphorical at least and role playing in practice. The Spirit doesn't literally proceed from God (either of them) but just heads out to start representing Jesus after his victorious death, resurrection and ascension. Our scholars have dismissed classic theology as misunderstanding the Biblical teaching of God....Strange, as the church fathers settled on a joint statement which even our pioneers found scriptural in large part - literally begotten Son, Spirit literally proceeding from God, at least.

We reckon we can teach one God with one nature without all three divine persons being personally linked by nature....

As a result, we teach today that Father, Son and Holy Spirit have kept each other company from everlasting to everlasting, helping each other out in various tasks and all pitching in on the same tasks all the time, but they have had no natural, divine relationship (e.g. like a Son begotten of the Father) binding themselves together. They are not linked at all in any way, except by their joint operation, and this perfect community and fellowship among them makes them divine(??!). They are credited with the attributes of divinity, but the basis of their divinity is at most speculative. Which is sad for us.

This is not a trinitarian formula in the mind of any trinitarian worth his salt whom you might find outside our church. It positively endangers the divinity of the Godhead: there is no theological or theoretical proof of one God out of the 3 persons, since intellectual agreement among them is no strict, perfect and reliable basis for one nature among them!

The Adventist trinitarian teaching appears fatally flawed, leaving the Spirit in need of a basis for its/his own divinity - having no personal link to God by nature, after all; while the Son has his own 'thread' to sort himself out on.

Ensuring the Spirit's non-physical, personal procession from God is the only Biblical basis possible for his divine personality which we are so anxious for. His lack of physique and his personal individuality are mutually inclusive.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 02:35 PM

Individuality, I am thinking like this. Jesus while being God is a different person/individual from the Father becourse although He didnt, He could have chosen not to go trough calvary. He had a choise to either do His Fathers will or to do His own will, thankfully choosing His Fathers will. Now to the Spirit, empoying the same image to the Spirit we end up with the question: is it possible for the Spirit to do anything outside of the Fathers will? We know from the scripture that He testifies about Jesus and teaches and reminds us about what Jesus teached. Does the Spirit do this becourse He chooses to or becourse It is programed to do so like a robot? It is said that one of the differences between humans and animals is that animals act by instinct while humans act by reason, well, humans have the possibility to act by reason.

Colin wrote

quote:
Else the Spirit's very identity as God's personal Spirit has no reliable link to God for that identity...

What about these other examples of how the phrase XYs personal .. is used..

Sb's personal laptop.
Sb's personal pen.
Sb's personal car.

But how about these?

Sb's personal wife
Sb's personal son

Sb's personal servant?

To have a personal something implies ownership or hiearchy, at least it does to me. The kind of thing you might say to a person you wish to mark dominance over when used about a human.
Whatever happened to equality among the Godhead? Or did we have that wrong aswell, having now to adjust to a hiearchy within it?

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 05:50 PM

Colin, sorry for my obtuseness, but I'm still not seeing the connection between what you are saying and what I'm asking. Let me try putting it this way. If the Father and Jesus Christ were to ask the Holy Spirit something, and the Holy Spirit were to respond, would they be talking to themselves?

You wrote:

quote:
His lack of physique and his personal individuality are mutually inclusive.

I take this to mean that the only reason the Holy Spirit can have a personal individuality is because He is not physical by nature, and similarly, the only reason the Holy Spirit can be a spirit is because He has a personal individuality. This is what you mean by "mutually inclusive"?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 06:33 PM

Yes, my 'mutual inclusivity'... My mistake was: What I was looking for was the A=B=C formula. Of your question, below...

quote:
the only reason the Holy Spirit can have a personal individuality is because He is not physical by nature, and similarly, the only reason the Holy Spirit can be a spirit is because He has a personal individuality.

...what should be the case is that the Holy Spirit has personal divine individuality because of not being physical by nature because of being the divine Spirit proceding from God's physical, divine person.

The Nicene Fathers found this to be Biblical, as did our pioneers, and now we teach that they are both mistaken because of Greek philosophy.

I challenge that finding today, due to the earliest Christian writers, Justin Martyr, etc (see previous post), learning from the Apostle John, who wrote the Gospel of John without Greek philosophy, and yet with the Church Fathers later saying much the same thing at Nicaea. They all spoke Greek, so did they misread the Bible in their own language? The meaning of the terms of Nicaea at the time is another study, but our pioneers avoided any pitfalls known to them while implicitly following the Nicene structure (see earlier post), while today we totally reject the whole Nicene structure of the divine relationships. Is that safe, or even Biblical?

If there is a classical problem with Greek philosophy, historically, it shouldn't detract from the Nicene creed's basic structure, since the SOP didn't challenge our pioneers' writings on the Godhead - shaped as it was by the Nicene structure, while she came down on Kellogg like she did on no-one else ever.

Thanks for your help: has this helped you?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 09:00 PM

I am bringing this post forward to show how Colin and the SOP are in disagreement:

quote:
Colin wrote:

The Spirit proceeding from God excludes it from being a person just like God and his Son, so there's not enough evidence from inspiration for the Spirit being a person just like God.

quote:
Sister White wrote:

"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds." -- Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {2SAT 137.6} {Ev 616.5}

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 09:14 PM

What is the anti-trinitatrian position: that the Holy Spirit is sometimes the personal presence of just the Father, sometimes the personal presence of just the Son, and sometimes the personal presence of both?

Posted By: dedication

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/28/05 10:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Glenn:
Dear Tom:
Zechariah 6:13 says: "and the counsel of peace shall be bewteen them both". It does not say that the counsel of peace shall be between them three. In Patriarchs and Prophets, page 36 it says: "...none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will." In Great Controversy, page 493 it says: "Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, - one in nature, in character, and in purpose, - the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God".
Glenn

However, there are more quotes in which she INCLUDES THE HOLY SPIRIT!

The Holy Spirit is part of the "ONE GOD" just as Christ is. Inspired writings do not have to enumerate each individual in the Godhead everytime they speak of God, in order for them to exist.
It is only as the work of each is revealed that they are individually spoken of.

****QUOTES*****

quote:
"It is the glory of the gospel that it is founded on the principles of restoring in the fallen race the divine image. The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out his plan, it was decided that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, should give himself an offering for sin. And in giving Christ, God gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting for the work of man's uplifting." {RH, May 2, 1912 par. 3 also in Counsels on Health 222}

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio. In the name of these three powers,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. {BT.1906-03-01.001}

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/29/05 03:20 AM

Colin, I still don't know if the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are in conference if there are two beings present or three. I'm pretty sure you'd say two; is that right?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/29/05 03:27 AM

MM, Colin has been careful in his presentation. You appear to be attempting to force a meaning to his words he does not attempt. I don't agree with his position either, but at least we should disagree with what he is actually saying.

quote:
The Spirit proceeding from God excludes it from being a person just like God and his Son, so there's not enough evidence from inspiration for the Spirit being a person just like God.

Colin had the very passage in mind that you quoted from the SOP when he wrote the above. The key phrase is "just like God". He means by that "exactly like God." Now we would agree that Jesus is not "exactly like God"; the difference in our views (I'm talking about Colin here, not you and I who are in agreement on this point, AFAICT) is to what extent we see the difference.

Colin is not denying that the Holy Spirit is a person, but the meaning of "person" is different for him than for the rest of us.

I agree with you that the passage you cited is a difficult one for his perspective, but he has attempted to meet the objection. To just recite the passage and state it disagrees with his, without giving any consideration whatsoever to his remards to answer the objections raised that very passage is not fair, I don't think.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 07:19 AM

quote:
"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds."

Tom, this quote tells me that the Holy Spirit is a person in exactly the same way God is a person. Of course they are not the same persons. They are two separate Beings.

I hear Colin, on the other hand, saying that God and the Holy Spirit are the same person, that they're not two separate persons, in the same way we can be absent in body but present in spirit. Spirit in this sense is not a person, rather it is the person's spirit. Colin seems to be saying the Holy Spirit is God's spirit - not a separate person or Being.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/29/05 08:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:

quote:
"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds."
Tom, this quote tells me that the Holy Spirit is a person in exactly the same way God is a person. Of course they are not the same persons. They are two separate Beings.

I hear Colin, on the other hand, saying that God and the Holy Spirit are the same person, that they're not two separate persons, in the same way we can be absent in body but present in spirit. Spirit in this sense is not a person, rather it is the person's spirit. Colin seems to be saying the Holy Spirit is God's spirit - not a separate person or Being.

Thank you for clarifying your understanding of what I've said, and you're right, that's what I wrote...What's wrong with it?? [Confused]

....I can't say that God's own, personal Spirit is the Holy Spirit filling the universe with creative power while in us he is God's very presence? You, on the other hand, are falsely proof texting, since EGW is clear in her whole writings that the Spirit is of God (Father and Son's divinity) as well as a person - the divine Spirit. That's the mystery of it. She even refers to the Spirit as "it" and "what is it", instead of 'who is he'.... [Smile]

The Spirit as "he" is God's presence in us, the Spirit as "it" is God's power in and around us - also in the universe.

When we say we are absent in body but present in spirit we are not speaking literally, for our bodies are finite and we mean we are merely but actually thinking about someone in particular with whom we are not present. When God says his Spirit dwells in us by faith, he is speaking literally since his nature is infinite, but his body is 'tied down to his throne', so his Spirit brings his presence to us. That is the language of Scripture, which Ellen White didn't dare to dabble in or with - by her own admission, since the Spirit of God - being God's nature's Spirit - is his Spirit (as you have understood me to say) and a person with the personality of exercising God's power in the universe and now also testifying to us and our world of Christ's righteousness.

The Bible only names the Spirit as Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Jesus, who actively represents Jesus to us. Is that not enough to give the understanding of the divine spirit proceeding from Father and Son's persons but having its own personality, too?

We do have this from Sister White.

quote:
The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour.

From her contemporary Adventist leaders and teachers (quoted by me on page 1 of this thread) we understand God's Spirit to pervade our lives, our world and the universe - but of course only our lives are pervaded by God's presence through his Spirit - not all of nature.

The Spirit manifests God's power and divine grace, in the fulness of the Godhead. That's not a person as we understand persons, who have beings or bodies like we perceive persons, but God's Spirit, the divine Spirit, is a person, if incomprehensible Why do we add to that? We are told by EGW not to use our own perception or reasoning to understand God's nature, but rather take the Bible for what it says. Well???

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/29/05 11:58 PM

quote:
When God says his Spirit dwells in us by faith, he is speaking literally.

I don't think this is right. In fact, I've asked many, including MM, quite a number of times just what they mean when they say "the Holy Spirit dwelling in you."

My understanding of what this means is NOT as some sort of ununderstandable undefinable mystical presence in us in some non-describable way, like air, or something like that, but rather is referring to the communication between God and us through the Spirit. That is, we are in harmony with the Holy Spirit; we hear what He is saying to us, and agree to it. It refers to communication between mind and mind.

Faith is an action of the mind. To say the Holy Spirit dwells is us by faith is to say that when we respond to the appeals of the Holy Spirit by faith, we are acting in harmony with Him. It's like this:

quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.(COL 312)

I believe this is what it means to say that Christ dwell in our heart by faith. That is, this is another way of communicating the same thought as the wedding garment statement. The idea is that Christ is closer than a brother; there is a harmony, a closeness, a union which so unites us that we couldn't be closer.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 12:02 AM

Colin, sorry to keep asking the same thing over and over, but I still don't know your answer to the 2 or 3 question. That is, when the Godhead is in conference, are there 2 present, or 3? How many minds are present? (Sorry if you've already answered this, and I missed it)

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 01:47 AM

Sometimes it is said that one point where SDA beliefs differ from most of the rest of Christianity is on the question of wether a soul can live outside or without a body. Now, if a human living body is one soul and we are made in Gods image, would God have a "soul" detachable from His body? Gods mind leaving His body becoming the Holy Spirit. This is one strange thougth.

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 02:25 AM

Interesting point, Thomas.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 06:29 AM

There are so many things that it is impossible for us to wrap our human minds around. The Holy Spirit is one of them, however Mrs. White says: ".... we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person....".

At the same time she also says: "The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden."

So in light of the above, and other passages that people on here have quoted I think it's pretty clear that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Godhead, beyond that maybe we need to head the advice of the SOP and realize that continued debate is pointless because we cannot understand it. God has not revealed to us this mystery, therefore any debate is just pure speculation and it does nothing to strengthen the church. We can debate the nature of the Holy Spirit until the cows come home and still not be any closer to the truth.

Redfog

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 09:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Colin, sorry to keep asking the same thing over and over, but I still don't know your answer to the 2 or 3 question. That is, when the Godhead is in conference, are there 2 present, or 3? How many minds are present? (Sorry if you've already answered this, and I missed it)

Quite right, that point had slipped away... [Big Grin]

When I say 2 it's with Jn 1:18 and Matt 11:27 in mind, as examples. Nevermind planning salvation and interceding for his people today, both of which activities the Spirit materialises in our faith experience, the very knowledge of God is actively shared by Father and Son, while only the Son makes that knowledge known to us - we're unable to see the Father at the moment, but the Father is on his throne while Christ is the mobile of the two. After his ascension he came to us through his Spirit.

Yes, God communicates with us through Bible study and prayer as well as the still small voice, of course. Why would the Spirit commune with the Father & Son if he is the "Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead" making God's power and presence felt where God is not personally presence - like among us? Thomas' point is interesting about God's Spirit possibly being akin to the roaming soul we do not have, etc. It sounds alright, to me.

The other thing I haven't responded to are your comments on my assertion that God is speaking literally about his Spirit dwelling in us.

quote:
My understanding of what this means is NOT as some sort of ununderstandable undefinable mystical presence in us in some non-describable way, like air, or something like that, but rather is referring to the communication between God and us through the Spirit. That is, we are in harmony with the Holy Spirit; we hear what He is saying to us, and agree to it. It refers to communication between mind and mind.

Granted, I may have been use a little hyberhole. The theatrical version of this situation is the Holy Spirit on the right shoulder and the devil on the left. [Big Grin]

It is perhaps more accurte to say that the Spirit of God is right next to us and manifests God's presence in our spiritual awareness, that is the "mind of Christ" he creates in our minds. The point is about the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son to represent them to us, manifesting their presence to and in us, as well as around us, but not bringing his own presence, since he is their presence.

Thus, we pray for Jesus' presence among us, and the Spirit answers that prayer. We commune with the Father in Jesus' name and the Father's presence is made manifest, to be perceived by the measure of faith used on our part... unbelievers must have a measure of faith, else how do they testify that believers in their midst have been with Jesus? That the Spirit testifies of Jesus and not of himself is surely significant as the limit of revelation.

Doesn't it just amount to the Spirit implementing God's will by grace through faith in our experience, as God's invisible omnipresence? He is the personal presence of God for us, but is obviously not the Father himself, etc.. That's the Spirit in our lives, but not your typical lodger. [Wink]

Just spotted that other question you raised, about the Spirit as Jesus' presence, testifying of Jesus but not of itself. Yes, your sentence made sense... [Big Grin]

The weirdness of it is solved by realising that the Spirit of Jesus isn't Jesus himself (see, I do acknowledge them as separate persons [Cool]

), but his divine spirit making his presence spiritually real for us.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 10:02 AM

Originally from Thomas, about me saying that the Spirit is divine only by its identity as God's Spirit

quote:
To have a personal something implies ownership or hiearchy, at least it does to me. The kind of thing you might say to a person you wish to mark dominance over when used about a human.
Whatever happened to equality among the Godhead? Or did we have that wrong aswell, having now to adjust to a hiearchy within it?

/Thomas

Well, yes human ownership is often oppressive in reality, whether of human, animate or inanimate property. While it's worth chuckling for a fleeting moment over the known fact that God is not oppressive over his creation - which he owns, God's Spirit isn't something he owns, surely. He doesn't own eternal life, he has it - he lives it; still, the Spirit of God (which is the Biblical wording much of the time... [Cool]

) isn't an attribute of God, but an intrinsic part of the make up of divine nature. It exists as divinity exists, and is divinity's constant omnipresence. God's Spirit even maintains the harmony between Father and Son, according to Ellen White, but the divine Spirit doesn't depart from God's will, as it naturally implements that will. it wishes no alternative to its natural purpose: divine persons don't naturally.... [Wink]

Jesus had a choice of God's will or his own will in the Garden of Gethsemane, as throughout his earthly life, because his [I]human will[I] was naturally contrary to God's will. As divinity, Jesus couldn't sin, for God naturally doesn't go against his own will and nothing to force him away from that - unlike our good intentions. But Jesus was righteous by faith as a human being, and that was only possible by the power of God's Spirit in his life, by his choice. Even the decisions in the wilderness temptations, as well as the Gethsemane trial, were by "the faith of Jesus" as a human being.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 10:08 AM

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/30/05 10:10 AM

Originally from Thomas, about me saying that the Spirit is divine only by its identity as God's Spirit

quote:
To have a personal something implies ownership or hiearchy, at least it does to me. The kind of thing you might say to a person you wish to mark dominance over when used about a human.
Whatever happened to equality among the Godhead? Or did we have that wrong aswell, having now to adjust to a hiearchy within it?

/Thomas

quote:
What is the anti-trinitatrian position: that the Holy Spirit is sometimes the personal presence of just the Father, sometimes the personal presence of just the Son, and sometimes the personal presence of both?

Does this differ from the trinitarian position? The difference may be that the anti-trinitarian position doesn't consider it Biblical for this 'processing Spirit' to have or manifest its own presence, since it manifests the Father's presence, etc.

This is a separate divine person, but not its own person, since he is God's presence, having divine power and grace.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/31/05 07:22 AM

Colin, your idea that God's Spirit, unlike our spirit, can think and feel like a person sounds strange to me. It reminds me of the disembodied spirit idea advocated by evangelicals. Are you suggesting that God's Spirit has a life of its own, a conscious non-physical entity, outside of God Himself?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 12/31/05 07:42 AM

quote:
Just spotted that other question you raised, about the Spirit as Jesus' presence, testifying of Jesus but not of itself. Yes, your sentence made sense... The weirdness of it is solved by realising that the Spirit of Jesus isn't Jesus himself (see, I do acknowledge them as separate persons ), but his divine spirit making his presence spiritually real for us.

I don't see how this solves the wierdness of it (nice way of putting it). Jesus would be saying, in essence, "My Spirit will not be testifying of my Spirit, but rather of my phsyical nature." That's still pretty wierd.

The way Jesus stated it implies the Holy Spirit has the ability to either speak of Himself or not. If it is just a manifestation of Jesus' presence and power, then it has no independent will, so it makes no sense to say that it will not testify of itself. Also this construction would take away from Jesus' point. His point was that being A would not testify of being A, but rather of being B (A being the Holy Spirit and B being Jesus Christ). Now if A is really B, then Jesus is saying is effect is "B will not testify of B, but will testify of B," which doesn't make sense.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/01/06 09:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Colin, your idea that God's Spirit, unlike our spirit, can think and feel like a person sounds strange to me. It reminds me of the disembodied spirit idea advocated by evangelicals. Are you suggesting that God's Spirit has a life of its own, a conscious non-physical entity, outside of God Himself?

No, the Bible is: Ezek 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them." God's presence and power manifested in us by his Spirit - not an ethereal person - which is natural, but the divine Spirit itself moving us from within us along God's way and will.

Jn 14:17 even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. But ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now, to 'see' the Spirit is clearly spiritual perception of God's presence on our part, rather than noting the physical presence of a person as we understand persons. The Spirit of Christ, of Truth, is with us, is in us: can only be the conscious, non-physical agent of divinity for us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so it be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

How can the Spirit dwell in us, and we have the Spirit of Christ, if it normally has a body? The comforter Christ sent to us is to get inside our heads as God physically cannot.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The "Spirit of God" doesn't just dwell in us, but wishes to fill us as God's temple. The Spirit of God is to God what it is to us: dwelling within to harmonise with God's will.

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

The Spirit of Christ teaches Christ's truth, and we abide in Christ by his Spirit. It is plain to view that the Spirit is as you've heard me present it, but he also manifests God's presence, power and grace to us, for he is God's spiritual presence to God's people.

Is the Bible clear enough? it should make the point rather thoroughly. [Smile]

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/01/06 10:04 PM

Tom wrote

quote:
The way Jesus stated it implies the Holy Spirit has the ability to either speak of Himself or not. If it is just a manifestation of Jesus' presence and power, then it has no independent will, so it makes no sense to say that it will not testify of itself. Also this construction would take away from Jesus' point. His point was that being A would not testify of being A, but rather of being B (A being the Holy Spirit and B being Jesus Christ). Now if A is really B, then Jesus is saying is effect is "B will not testify of B, but will testify of B," which doesn't make sense.

The implication you find in Jesus' statement may well not be proper interpretation, since the Bible elsewhere has the Spirit doing in us the will of Jesus and of God without any of its own agenda. The Spirit is, Biblically, the divine Spirit of Jesus and God the Father, but also the person of their divine presence with us, teaching us of God's truth and leading us into all righteousness.

Isn't it clear that "being" isn't "person" with the Holy Spirit, since the Spirit isn't a person just like God is a person? Our trinitarianism today goes against this clarity, and thus forces your problem with what I'm saying... [Frown]

Since the Spirit has its own personality apart from Jesus, but is Jesus' Spirit, they are not the same person, and the Spirit isn't a person the same way Jesus is but is nevertheless itself a person, as the texts I shared with MM above should make crystal clear.

Since God only speaks the truth, and his Spirit only testifies about God's truth, the only alternative for the Spirit to say anything about - off its own bat, as you are suggesting, would have to be what isn't truth....I fear you're barking up the wrong tree with the notion of the Spirit's own testimony. If it says something other than God's truth of Christ - something of its own, how does it not speak for the Devil? The Spirit must proceed from God as the divine Spirit in order reliably to be God's Spirit, with no room for changing sides - like making divinity what it isn't, even sinful.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/01/06 11:36 PM

Colin,

When Jesus says that the Spirit “shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak” what is He referring to?

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 12:13 AM

Colin

It seems the main point of difference here is your still unproven assumption that to be a person, you need a body. If you remove this requirement, every one of the texts you quoted works equally well with the Spirit being a person as with Him being an extention of Father.
One question about the person requires physical body requirement of yours. How was God a person before He created the physical world? Or did having a physical body first enter as a requirement for personhood after the universe was created?

Also, as you pointed out the Spirit being God will only tell us what is truth, and scripture tells us that Jesus is Truth so the Spirit testifying about Jesus is the expected thing. Jesus came to earth to testify about the Father, and that does not make Jesus less a person so neither should acomplishing His mission make the Spirit less a person.

May this be a year the blessings of God increase and bear rich fruit.

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 04:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
Colin,

When Jesus says that the Spirit “shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak” what is He referring to?

I've always understood the explanation of local church leaders to be that what the Spirit hears from God is what as God's Spirit he says to us. Were you looking for more meaning than that?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 04:26 AM

Thomas,

Doesn't a person normally have a body?? I thought God was supposed to be physical, rather than the other way round? That the Spirit isn't physical is the premise of those texts - you agreed? - but the Father & Son had bodies since eternity - since before creation, didn't they?

The personalities of each divine person next to each other isn't in question. That the Spirit proceeds from God and isn't a physical person just like God is in question within the church, but not so much on this forum(?).

It's been good to find increasing agreement, and there's always space for more of that.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 04:43 AM

Colin, I'm glad you made it clear that you believe the Holy Spirit is God's non-physical presence, like the expression "absent in body, but present in spirit." Nevertheless, I totally disagree with you. I believe the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person, that He is the third person of the heavenly trio.

Also, the church is not unclear or ambiguous about the trinity truth. Fundamental beliefs 2-5 state it plainly. Yes, there are members, like yourself, who are in disagreement, but all such dissenting views do not reflect the official view of the church.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 04:53 AM

quote:
The implication you find in Jesus' statement may well not be proper interpretation, since the Bible elsewhere has the Spirit doing in us the will of Jesus and of God without any of its own agenda.

Jesus does the will of God without any of His own agenda as well. But that doesn't preclude Him from being an independent being.

I'm sorry, but I'm not following what you are saying. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not testify of Himself, but would rather testify of Him (i.e. Jesus). Jesus, similarly, did not testify of Himself, but testified of the Father. When Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not testify of Himself, the implication is that there is a "self" of which the Holy Spirit could testify, if He chose to, but He chooses not to do that, but rather to testify of Jesus.

If the Holy Spirit is simply performing the will of Christ like a robot, then Jesus' statement seems to make no sense. It would be like Him saying, "My robot won't testify of itself, but instead will testify of Me." So Jesus would be testifying of Himself indirectly through the agent of a robot. That's contrary to the attribute of agape, as I perceive it, where no person of the Godhead testifies of Himself because agape is not puffed up. Agape empties itself, just as Christ did. Each member of the Godhead lives for the other, exemplified in self-sacrificing love, which is the essence of God's character.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 05:11 AM

quote:
[A]gape, as I perceive it, [is] where no person of the Godhead testifies of Himself because agape is not puffed up. Agape empties itself, just as Christ did. Each member of the Godhead lives for the other, exemplified in self-sacrificing love, which is the essence of God's character.

Awesome insight, Tom. Thank you!

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 05:18 AM

MM, we're actually talking past each other, since I merely decline to be tied down to trinitarian wording as my preferred expression, yet agree that

quote:
the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person, that He is the third person of the heavenly trio.

Sister White joined her contemporaries in describing the Spirit as being the fulness of the Godhead, but only manifesting God's power and presence - not manifesting the Godhead bodily - as Jesus does.

We appear to differ on the meaning of "proceeding from God" in relation to the Spirit, since we differ on the Spirit being God's intelligent Spirit.

Tom, we can agree on this point you raise, since having a self isn't excluded from God, but Father, Son and Holy Spirit are selfless in their attitude. Conscious separate intelligence the Spirit also has, but 'independent' doesn't sound suitable for divine persons with the conotation it has in our thinking for being different: separate means the same for you? Still, their distinct personalities require a personal link to attain one nature among them; the Son begotten, and the Spirit proceeding. You raise this point - in disagreeing with it - on the trinity thread today, I think, so I'll deal with it there; you had previously been in favour of it.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 05:45 AM

Colin, I have a great deal of difficult understanding you on this subject. Sorry about that. Apparently the difficulty is mutual, since you seem to think I'm changing positions, but I'm not.

I don't see how it makes sense to say that the Spirit will not testify of itself if it did not have a self of which not to testify. That presents the thought as simply as I know how to.

I used the analogy of a robot to represent your viewpoint. Do you see that as off base?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 05:57 AM

Colin, I believe the Holy Spirit is a real person, not God's disembodied presence. That's how we disagree. I've already provided the inspired insights that I believe support my view of the Holy Spirit. I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 06:51 AM

Before this grinds to a halt, I agree with you, Tom, that all persons of the Godhead have selves which they defer to their creatures on: IOW, they're selfless. Like you said, the Son speaks of his Father's will, and the Spirit speaks what it hears from both Father & Son about that will of God.

The robot analogy may have expressed well your perception of my view, but your perception wasn't accurate - hence all your questions.

Thomas' idea of God's soul being his mind which is able to leave his body is close to my idea of God's Spirit being able to leave his body, but would be more than his soul or mind since the Bible says the Spirit searches God's mind - so would have access to his mind but not be his mind, yet able to leave his body and exert God's power in the universe to uphold creation, and come to us to dwell in us with God's presence and the mind and character of Jesus. The experience of communicating with God by prayer and Bible study through the Spirit is agreed: that's how we commune with the Spirit. We cannot know, so should we speculate, on how Father and Son hold counsel, as to whether the Spirit joins in on the discussion. There's no allusion to that in Scripture, is there? - while Father & Son are said to meet together, in both the Bible and SOP.

MM, the rest of EGW's written comments on the Spirit's nature don't support it literally walking through the Avondale campus grounds - striding and swinging its arms in time: "The Comforter...is the Spirit in the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest God's power and grace to [us] believers" Thus the Spirit pervaded Avondale campus and was watchful of everyone there - all of them believers(?), also communing spiritually with everyone in making real by grace through faith God's own presence in their lives.

The list of pioneer quotes by me on what is probably page 1 of this thread was to indicate that the published voice of our church was settled, throughout Ellen White's lifetime, on God's Spirit being as much a person as God, but not a person just like God: does God's omnipresence have a body life we do, the Father does and Jesus does? Is that record of no value in elucidating what she agreed with of others in her midst, but felt unable to articulate herself? What little she wrote on the Spirit - mostly in response to Kellogg's mistakes - was in line with what her fellow Adventists published at the same time: common belief, or not?

I hear from both of you that you understand the Spirit to be a person as you perceive a person to be: is that how we are supposed to understand the Spirit's personality?? During EGW's lifetime her/our church published consistently that we should not regard the Spirit to be a person as we understand persons, but yet to have personality separte from God and Jesus. Tom, granted, a person has individuality, and consciousness, but the Spirit is different in other respects, isn't he, bringing God's presence but not God's body to us while being personal? MM, how do you reconcile the quote I keep producing with your favourite quote?

Hopefully this can be resolved; would be a shame not to.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 09:20 AM

Sure, a person normally has a body. Also, a person normally cannot create anything out of nothing, live for eternity by default or repeatedly claim to be God without being eligeble for the insane assylum..

I thought one of the things Jesus sacraficed when becoming human was the state of existence God lives in and getting a human body, the creator making himself part of the created. If God has a body like we do, I would have to reevaluate exactly what God really did create, becourse in that case "everything that was made" could not include everything that exists outside of God.

/Thomas

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 09:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
Thomas' idea of God's soul being his mind which is able to leave his body is close to my idea of God's Spirit being able to leave his body, but would be more than his soul or mind since the Bible says the Spirit searches God's mind - so would have access to his mind but not be his mind, yet able to leave his body and exert God's power in the universe to uphold creation, and come to us to dwell in us with God's presence and the mind and character of Jesus.

I hear from both of you that you understand the Spirit to be a person as you perceive a person to be: is that how we are supposed to understand the Spirit's personality??

The post you refer to by me was part of the process of trying to understand where you stand on this subject, as in contrast to painting the picture of where I stand. I stand, still, in the other camp that you adress in the secound paragraph I quoted, understanding the Spirit to be a person as I percieve persons to be, neither more nor less than Father is a person as I percieve persons to be.

/Thomas

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 06:56 PM

Thomas, the Bible says man was made in the image and likeness of God. This implies, in my mind, that the Father is like us both spiritually and physically. That is, we share the same basic physical features - ears, eyes, nose, arms, legs, etc. I'm sure that's why the Bible uses these terms to descibe God. Jesus told Sister White in vision that the Father has a "form" like His.

2 Chronicles
6:40 Now, my God, let, I beseech thee, thine eyes be open, and [let] thine ears [be] attent unto the prayer [that is made] in this place.

Deuteronomy
5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Song of Solomon
5:10 My beloved [is] white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
5:11 His head [is as] the most fine gold, his locks [are] bushy, [and] black as a raven.
5:12 His eyes [are] as [the eyes] of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, [and] fitly set.
5:13 His cheeks [are] as a bed of spices, [as] sweet flowers: his lips [like] lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.
5:14 His hands [are as] gold rings set with the beryl: his belly [is as] bright ivory overlaid [with] sapphires.
5:15 His legs [are as] pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance [is] as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.
5:16 His mouth [is] most sweet: yea, he [is] altogether lovely. This [is] my beloved, and this [is] my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

EW 54
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 07:30 AM

quote:
I've always understood the explanation of local church leaders to be that what the Spirit hears from God is what as God's Spirit he says to us. Were you looking for more meaning than that?

Colin,

A person hearing something from another person is OK; a presence hearing something from the original being does not make any sense whatsoever.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/02/06 11:48 PM

I'm still not understanding the testify question. How could the Spirit choose not to testify of Himself if He is not an individual Being with the capability of choosing to His will or not? Similarly the statement that says the Spirit searches the mind of God, implies the Spirit functions differently than the mind of God itself, or else the mind of God would simply be searching itself.

I understand that there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, and that God has chosen not to reveal His nature to us to a great degree, and would should not speculate beyong what is revealed (and it seems clear to me that you, Colin, are attempting to do this, as well as the others here). However, it does seem to me that God has chosen to reveal to us that the Holy Spirit is an individual capable of independent thought. If not, God's certainly been confusing on this topic, it seems to me, as I would think that there would be clearer ways of communicating the thought than by speaking of three persons. I need to be careful in how I'm saying this, because far be it from me to set myself up as a judge of God; I'm simply stating that from my point of view the expressions that we find in inspiration appear to suggest to me very strongly that the Holy Spirit is an individual being capable of independent thought.

To speak of the soul analogy, if there were a soul which existed outside the body, and one could float to heaven, as many Protestants believe, then the body would be nothing but a shell. The essence of the person would be in the soul, or spirit; nothing important would be in the body. That is to say, that which makes a person the person he is, the ability to think, to fell, to act, would be present in the floating part alone -- not in the body to the least extent. So if the Holy Spirit has these characteristics (of being like the soul or spirit in the analogy), then that would leave the Father without the ability to think, to feel, to act. So it seems to me the analogy has big problems.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 08:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by västergötland:
Sure, a person normally has a body. Also, a person normally cannot create anything out of nothing, live for eternity by default or repeatedly claim to be God without being eligeble for the insane assylum..

I thought one of the things Jesus sacraficed when becoming human was the state of existence God lives in and getting a human body, the creator making himself part of the created. If God has a body like we do, I would have to reevaluate exactly what God really did create, becourse in that case "everything that was made" could not include everything that exists outside of God.

/Thomas

Jesus gave up the prerogatives of God - omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence for certain - any other bits it seems we can't be dogmatic about, but, after his glorification - i.e. resurrection - omnipotence was restored to him with "all authority", and we know omnipresence was restored, too, since he sent us his Spirit. He did not give up his divine personality or his right to his place in heaven with his Father, though regaining his place in heaven should be the right word for, as he depended on dying righteously for us here first, in order to 'return' - thus "returning" isn't the real word for it. The Father has no knowledge or experience of being human as his Son now does, but his Son continues now to exist as God does, since he is God, too...bearing in mind that his life here was human, not divine.

And, they both started out with bodies. Those aren't created bodies, but everyone else's body is.

[ January 03, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 08:59 PM

As has been pointed out in several other posts recently, this is all just speculating. I guess Jesus present body is the only one we can say anything at all about since He took one like our own.

/Thomas

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 09:23 PM

No speculation on this issue, Thomas, and you are thinking in the wrong direction:

"God said,'Let us make man in our own image.'"

Our bodies are like God's body...

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 09:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:

quote:
I've always understood the explanation of local church leaders to be that what the Spirit hears from God is what as God's Spirit he says to us. Were you looking for more meaning than that?
Colin,

A person hearing something from another person is OK; a presence hearing something from the original being does not make any sense whatsoever.

Now, now: I never said that. God's Spirit is more than his presence among us and in us. He bring us God's presence, but he isn't just God's presence, since he is a personality. The unanimous voice of our church on this issue during Ellen White's lifetime is being totally ignored here, yet with them the Spirit's personality is affirmed as a person like God is, in the context that it is God's omnipresence and bring us God's presence so doesn't have the appearance God made us in the image of.

If we can't uderstand that, that's what we're supposed to conclude, since we can't understand it: the Spirit proceeds from Father & Son, and is their divine Spirit: that's Biblical revelation; our trinitarian teaching wants him to be "God the Holy Spirit" (not a Biblical title) without any link to Father or Son and without any other reasonable basis for them not being 3 gods.

The Spirit is both a personality and God's spiritual presence: we're told not to understand that in any normal sense, so why do you trinitarians all insist on this 'any normal sense' for the Spirit's personhood?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 10:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I'm still not understanding the testify question. How could the Spirit choose not to testify of Himself if He is not an individual Being with the capability of choosing to His will or not? Similarly the statement that says the Spirit searches the mind of God, implies the Spirit functions differently than the mind of God itself, or else the mind of God would simply be searching itself.

I understand that there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, and that God has chosen not to reveal His nature to us to a great degree, and would should not speculate beyong what is revealed (and it seems clear to me that you, Colin, are attempting to do this, as well as the others here). However, it does seem to me that God has chosen to reveal to us that the Holy Spirit is an individual capable of independent thought. If not, God's certainly been confusing on this topic, it seems to me, as I would think that there would be clearer ways of communicating the thought than by speaking of three persons. I need to be careful in how I'm saying this, because far be it from me to set myself up as a judge of God; I'm simply stating that from my point of view the expressions that we find in inspiration appear to suggest to me very strongly that the Holy Spirit is an individual being capable of independent thought.

To speak of the soul analogy, if there were a soul which existed outside the body, and one could float to heaven, as many Protestants believe, then the body would be nothing but a shell. The essence of the person would be in the soul, or spirit; nothing important would be in the body. That is to say, that which makes a person the person he is, the ability to think, to fell, to act, would be present in the floating part alone -- not in the body to the least extent. So if the Holy Spirit has these characteristics (of being like the soul or spirit in the analogy), then that would leave the Father without the ability to think, to feel, to act. So it seems to me the analogy has big problems.

Is "person" for the Holy Spirit the same as "being", for it? Our church literature of EGW's day says no, you say yes. They say that since the Spirit isn't a person like Father and Son but is a person as much as God. You appear to argue it is a person like them, since that is the ordinary meaning (you insist on such meanings) of a "being".

The Bible reveals the Spirit as personally active with God's presence, as well as manifesting just God's power: that amounts to a person but not in the normal sense - you're pushing for the normal sense, aren't you? I'm not. So, where do you see me going beyond Biblical revelation... [Confused]

That soul analogy was a misnomer in the first place, as Thomas was trying to find my position without agreeing with it himself. I don't agree with it, either [Big Grin]

.

My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person. Just the divine Spirit, with a conscious self, but it assists Father and Son to live harmoniously, since it is naturally their Spirit and it supports divinity naturally, while it supports us supernaturally.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/03/06 11:53 PM

quote:
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

quote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

quote:
4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

How, or by whom was earth created? God/Father, Jesus/Word or the Spirit able to fly over water?

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/04/06 12:26 AM

quote:
bearing in mind that his life here was human, not divine.

His life here was both human and divine, wasn't it? As it continues to be to this day?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/04/06 12:32 AM

quote:
The Spirit is both a personality and God's spiritual presence: we're told not to understand that in any normal sense, so why do you trinitarians all insist on this 'any normal sense' for the Spirit's personhood?

I've never claimed to be a trinitarian. I don't particularly like that term. I'm a "Godheadian".

The Spirit of Prophecy speaks of three persons, not simply of the Holy Spirit as a personality. He also does many things which we associate with individuals, such as testifying, or not, of Himself, grieving, being joyful, etc. You have a concept of this which seems to be analagous to a remote control device, which God, or Christ, somehow projects Himself through some out of body experience. It seems more "natural" to me to conceive of the Holy Spirit as an individual who can choose to act in harmony with the Father's will or not.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/04/06 12:51 AM

quote:
Is "person" for the Holy Spirit the same as "being", for it? Our church literature of EGW's day says no, you say yes. They say that since the Spirit isn't a person like Father and Son but is a person as much as God. You appear to argue it is a person like them, since that is the ordinary meaning (you insist on such meanings) of a "being".

No, I wasn't dealing with the ordinary meaning of "being" but of "person". All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. The Holy Spirit is called a "person", which means He is a being.

quote:
The Bible reveals the Spirit as personally active with God's presence, as well as manifesting just God's power: that amounts to a person but not in the normal sense - you're pushing for the normal sense, aren't you? I'm not. So, where do you see me going beyond Biblical revelation.

The Holy Spirit is not simply revealed as a personality, but as a person. The normal sense of "person" I'm pushing for is in the sense of what "person" conveys. The Holy Spirit is a divine person, so of course that sets Him apart from non-divine persons. However, this difference is due to His being divine, not due to His personhood.

quote:
That soul analogy was a misnomer in the first place, as Thomas was trying to find my position without agreeing with it himself. I don't agree with it, either.

Ok.

quote:
My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person.

Ellen White said the Holy Spirit is not like the Father or Son, or any other person in the normal sense of person? Where did she write that?

quote:
Just the divine Spirit, with a conscious self, but it assists Father and Son to live harmoniously, since it is naturally their Spirit and it supports divinity naturally, while it supports us supernaturally.

The Spirit of Prophecy, speaking of the Holy Spirit, says He is a divine person, and has a personality. She speaks of three persons of the Godhead. I don't see how these statements can co-exist with the idea that He is not an individual who can assert His own will.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/08/06 06:48 AM

quote:
Colin wrote:
My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person.

Tom replied:
Ellen White said the Holy Spirit is not like the Father or Son, or any other person in the normal sense of person? Where did she write that?

She wrote that the Comforter "is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power and divine grace of God...unto believers". While the Son is the fulness of the Godhead manifested bodily, and the Father is the fulness of the Godhead bodily but invisible to mortal eyes, the Spirit manifests God's power and grace, but does not manifest the Godhead bodily.

I was equating "being" as a noun with having a body, but you're emphasising the individuality of the Spirit with "being", using the dictionary definition. That's never an automatically safe method of defining a Biblical point: Scripture must interpret itself. Still, on this point we can agree on the spirit's individuality, but why should the Spirit ever wish to 'do its own thing' apart from God, just to express itself freely? Inspiration reveals that the Spirit is independent of God's bodily confines, but primarily facilitates the harmony between God and his Son and also implementing their will throughout creation, while also keeping harmony with his intelligent creation - including ourselves. For Jesus to do his own thing apart from his Father was only a natural option while possessing our sinful flesh - which he now possesses as glorified humanity. As the divine Son doing his own thing wasn't a natural preference at all, so would never happen.

quote:
The Spirit of Prophecy, speaking of the Holy Spirit, says He is a divine person, and has a personality. She speaks of three persons of the Godhead. I don't see how these statements can co-exist with the idea that He is not an individual who can assert His own will.

I reiterate that you appear to insist on God's Spirit's individuality needing freedom to act like we sinful beings would wish naturally to behave: assert one's own will. That is an irrelevancy for the Godhead, and leaves the heavenly trio in a wrong light, doesn't it?

Scripture barely reveals more than the Spirit of Jesus being separate from Jesus, but that separateness is there, and that's all we know. The larger dispute is whether the Holy Spirit exists & proceeds from the Father and Son's physical, divine persons or it exists strictly separately from them, as someone just like them, as they are said to be just like each other. That is my point of emphasis, taking the former option.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 02:21 AM

quote:
I was equating "being" as a noun with having a body, but you're emphasising the individuality of the Spirit with "being", using the dictionary definition. That's never an automatically safe method of defining a Biblical point: Scripture must interpret itself.

Where does Scripture suggest we should use a different definition for "being" then the ordinary one? If we start re-defining ordinary words, where do we stop?

quote:
I reiterate that you appear to insist on God's Spirit's individuality needing freedom to act like we sinful beings would wish naturally to behave: assert one's own will. That is an irrelevancy for the Godhead, and leaves the heavenly trio in a wrong light, doesn't it?

I'm not saying the individuality needs freedom to act like sinful beings, but that the word "individuality" implies the ability to act independently. Otherwise there wouldn't be any individuality at all (except for the one who will was being asserted).

Having the ability to act independently is far from irrelevant. Consider the scene portrayed in EW 125-127 (quoted several times in the God the Son thread). It's clear that Jesus and the Father were acting invidually there. It was not a forgone conclusion that God would allow His Son to come on His most dangerous mission. It was a "struggle". Jesus was clearly more willing to come than the Father was willing to allow Him to come. They are different individuals.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 03:19 AM

In the Bible the Spirit is revealed only as doing the Father's will in applying the truth of Jesus. There's too little detail aside from that activity to construct how the Spirit relates to Father & Son with its own personlity.

The restriction on dictionary definitions is the very scope of Biblical revelation. Even 'creation' in the dictionary must be challenged or kept in check by the Biblical meaning. The dictionary answers to the Bible, as any human expression does.

We have our code of conduct with God's Spirit given us by Jesus, but the Spirit's sole activity is representing God: that's a spiritual individuality in and of divine nature, so is different to both Father & Son, but how individual aside from being God's agent the Bible doesn't reveal. That's why I listed all those pioneer quotes near the beginning of this thread: subservience to God doesn't diminish the Spirit's undoubted divinity.

You said the Spirit is a being because he is a person. Since he isn't a person just like God's a person, what sort of "being" does that leave?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 09:04 AM

I'm not following your argument about definitions. What Jones and Waggoner taught was the the Scriptures use the ordinary definitions of words. Words are words, not spiritural words. They don't have special meanings that only the enlightened can understand. This is where the gnostics went wrong.

Now if we're dealing with prophetic symbols, then of course Scripture must define itself. But even here "goats" are "goats" and so forth.

Does the Scripture define "being" somewhere so that I should think the word "being" doesn't mean "being"?

Regarding "person", where does Scripture, or the Spirit of Prophecy, state that the Holy Spirit is not a person like God is a person?

Coming back to the asserting of the will question, does the Holy Spirit have an independent will which can be asserted? I'm sorry if you've already answered this, but I can't remember getting a yes or no answer to this.

I believe He does. That is, if He so chose, He could act contrary to the Father's will, or Jesus' will. The fact that He doesn't so choose to do is moot, as far as the question I'm asking is concerned.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 12:35 PM

Yes, a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat (Matt 25): very important, but where in the Bible is the Spirit of God called a "being"? He isn't even called a "person"...! Personal characteristics are given him, as Christ's representative, with extra special priviledges on blasphemy, as well as being witnesses with us and being upset by us, and the like, but it's only the SOP which uses "person" for him. You're not worried about the Spirit's lack of physique, but it is this very difference with the Father and Son which brought all Ellen White's contemporaries I quoted at the beginning of this thread to say that the Spirit isn't a person like God is, while being as much a person as God is. Divine Spirit with personality - hence individuality, but no divine physique, hence not conventional pesonality or individuality?

The Spirit's individuality was never in question - just separating its "being" from meaning body, as in divine being or human being while allowing individuality, but how it is the divine Spirit is the debate around "person". It is given personal attributes since it does personal things, but his individuality is that mysterious ability to manifest God's persence for us & in us separately from Father and Son. That's a separate individuality from God, but that's all we know, isn't it?

An independent will? At least during the history of salvation, we cannot know, can we? Independent activity, absolutely, but isn't allowing the Spirit an independent will going beyond the revelation of his task to harmonise us with God and Christ? - the very harmonising task he has always had with God and his Son. Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?

[ January 09, 2006, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Colin ]

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 06:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?

Arent we all (including you)?

Posted By: Dr.Glenn

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 07:01 AM

Dear interested persons:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, said: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".
Is it essential to eternal life that I know exactly who, what, where, what substance, etc. concerning the Holy Spirit?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 07:13 AM

If the Holy Spirit isn't a living person, in the same sense the Father is a living person, why, then, are we baptized in the name of all three great powers of the heavenly trio? Why is the Holy Spirit represented as working side by side with the Father and Son? If the Holy Spirit is a non-physical person, how can He be present when the Father and Son are present? Why would anyone refer to the work and presence of the Holy Spirit while the Father and Son are present?

EV 307
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {Ev 307.1}

Baptism is a most solemn renunciation of the world. Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan, and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. {Ev 307.2}

They are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus they are united with the three great powers of heaven. {Ev 307.3}

EV 615
There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 09:49 PM

quote:
Yes, a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat (Matt 25): very important, but where in the Bible is the Spirit of God called a "being"? He isn't even called a "person"...!

I'm just commuinicating in English. "Being" is a word I used. I used it in the ordinary sense of the word. It will be a challenge to communicate if we are limited to words which are only found in Scripture (e.g. is "challenge" in Scripture?; but we know what it means, don't we? Do I need to provide a Scriptural definition for "challenge" before I can use it?)

quote:
Personal characteristics are given him, as Christ's representative, with extra special priviledges on blasphemy, as well as being witnesses with us and being upset by us, and the like, but it's only the SOP which uses "person" for him. You're not worried about the Spirit's lack of physique, but it is this very difference with the Father and Son which brought all Ellen White's contemporaries I quoted at the beginning of this thread to say that the Spirit isn't a person like God is, while being as much a person as God is. Divine Spirit with personality - hence individuality, but no divine physique, hence not conventional pesonality or individuality?

To my way of thinking, it is not the body but the mind which makes personhood or individuality possible.

quote:
The Spirit's individuality was never in question - just separating its "being" from meaning body, as in divine being or human being while allowing individuality, but how it is the divine Spirit is the debate around "person".

I don't know what this is saying.

quote:
It is given personal attributes since it does personal things, but his individuality is that mysterious ability to manifest God's persence for us & in us separately from Father and Son. That's a separate individuality from God, but that's all we know, isn't it?

To manifest God's presence as I understand it is not some mysterious unexplainable thing, but simply refers to His communicating God's will and thoughts to us (admittedly there's mystery involved in how he does this). When we respond to His wooing, and choose to do God's will, then our minds and hearts are united with His; we choose to do His will. That's how God's presence is manifest in us.

quote:
An independent will? At least during the history of salvation, we cannot know, can we?

Why not? If God reveals it to us, we can know.

quote:
Independent activity, absolutely, but isn't allowing the Spirit an independent will going beyond the revelation of his task to harmonise us with God and Christ? - the very harmonising task he has always had with God and his Son. Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?

I don't think so. One of the attributes of being a person is having a will.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 09:53 PM

quote:
Is it essential to eternal life that I know exactly who, what, where, what substance, etc. concerning the Holy Spirit?

Not directly, no: just fundamental to understanding who gifts us eternal life... [Big Grin] ...as well as how we come to "know...the only true God": Biblically, we know God through his Spirit, but God's Spirit must be Biblically understood so as not to cease being Biblically divine.

Is the Spirit of God actually literally God's Holy Spirit, or the metaphorical title of one of three persons who selected it for himself for the common purpose which makes them divine by uniting them? Thus our trinity doctrine isn't certain about the Spirit's divinity according to Biblical clarity.

One must establish the divine Spirit, or else one's link to God is uncertain.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 10:45 PM

Not only is it impossible to completly understand the Holy Spirit but might I venture to say that we are going against Mrs. White for continuing this discussion? She says on the issue that "silence is golden". We're delving deep into speculation here. Mrs. White says He is a person but we cannot understand His nature, and yet we are trying to do the impossible. Just my $0.02 worth.

Redfog

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/09/06 11:42 PM

I think you're bringing up an important concern, Redfog. However, I don't think our conversations have been aline the lines of what sort of substance is the Holy Spirit, or dwelling on obscure subjects, but have been addressing whether the Holy Spirit is a person with an independent will. What we're getting act is if there are three divine beings, or two, which seems to me to a fundamental issue, not a perpheral one.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 12:45 AM

Is it not quite clear from the SOP that there are 3 distinct persons in the Godhead? Either we believe in her writings or we do not. Lets not complicate a clear issue. Now the nature of His form maybe we can have no idea of but as to if there is 2 or 3 it is very clear. Call me a simpilton if you wish I just don't see any reason to complicate the clear word of God.

Redfog

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 03:17 AM

Tom, while "being" is your own preference, it doesn't help me to understand the Spirit's personality, since the Spirit's personhood aint conventional. We shouldn't be using the normal sense of person for the Spirit, since its individuality is mysterious to his personality as Jesus rep., due to its divinity as God's Spirit. Our pioneers were careful to avoid the noun "being", while they described the unusual personality of the Spirit.

The Spirit's mind itself isn't revealed in any detail in the Bible, is it? Personal activity is obvious, but what sort of mind was involved isn't clear. You wrote

quote:
An independent will? At least during the history of salvation, we cannot know, can we?

Why not? If God reveals it to us, we can know.

So we'll have to disagree: God hasn't revealed it! The Spirit implements God's will in our lives while also leading us into more truth. Its operations are in harmony with divine nature. There isn't anything else revealed of the Spirit than it fulfilling the will of God during creation and salvation, as well as bringing God's own presence to us which is the Spirit's personality.

The Spirit's individuality isn't reduceable to having or not having a mind, in as much as Scripture teaches the Spirit leading and instructing the church's believers in the truths of Christ, but our connection with God is more than simple communication - we sense the very presence of God while communing with him personally through his Spirit. That presence is the Spirit's personality: that's why we can't place the Spirit's mind. The Holy Spirit dwells in us as the mind of Christ - similarly filling our mind with God's will, but we experience the Spirit of Jesus' divinity, not his actual mind (of course).

Since the Spirit is pointedly not a conventional person, his personality doesn't require normal persoanlity traits. Forcing that into the picture for the sake of a normal person's make up is going beyond Scriptural illumination on the Spirit, which is God's divine Spirit with mysterious personality. Even its divinity as the Spirit proceeding from God depends on it having unconventional personality as a person. Hence this debate in the context of our trinity doctrine, which verily can threaten that divinity of the Spirit, with no processing from God - thus: How is the Spirit divine?

God's presence in us through his Spirit is divine presence, and nothing ethereal or mystical: We commune spiritually with God by the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit just does his thing. The Spirit has personality as much as God has personality, but isn't a person just like God is. That's the line our church took during Ellen White's lifetime, so pinning down the Spirit's mental rights and freedoms isn't for our study, is it.

I'll look into it a bit more and get back to you shortly.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 06:31 AM

quote:
The Holy Spirit dwells in us as the mind of Christ - similarly filling our mind with God's will, but we experience the Spirit of Jesus' divinity, not his actual mind (of course).

What does this mean? Phil. 2:5 talks about the mind of Christ, doesn't it?

I still don't know the answer the question if the Spirit can assert His own will. Are there three divine persons, or two? Or one?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 08:19 AM

Phil 2:5 is better translated "attitude of Christ", as I'll concede to the NIV for once: Christ's mind was pioneering the residence of the Holy Spirit, and so the same for us.

As for the Spirit having his own will to assert: it is not revealed, as his person is different to Father and Son, as is his individuality - and, unless you allow for that difference, do you agree with our pioneers that the Spirit of God is as much a person as God is, but is not a person like God is.

I recognise that the Spirit proceeds from God, so is his divine Spirit, thus disagreeing with our trinity teaching, but that's just what the Bible says, and there's no other conceivable basis for the Spirit's divinity.

There are still three persons in the heavenly trio: is your logic correct in this context?

I'm just after safeguarding a Biblical understanding of the Spirit's divinity.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 12:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
I'm just after safeguarding a Biblical understanding of the Spirit's divinity.

I think its interesting that you to a large extent back this biblical understanding not by refering to the bible but by refering to church fathers, the SDA church fathers or the 4th century church fathers. ...

/Thomas

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/11/06 07:11 AM

quote:
Phil 2:5 is better translated "attitude of Christ"

This wasn't A.T. Jones' thought on the matter. He preached a whole sermon on the thought.

I don't think the word used matters anyway, as the thought is not literal. None of these expressions are. The Holy Spirit does not literally dwell in us. Thinking this way is what leads to pantheism, like we intake the Holy Spirit with each breath. We don't literally have the mind of Christ, but we think like He does. That's the thought.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 08:25 PM

I don't discern a difference between us on the point of 'thought' or 'attitude' for the mind of Christ.

The Spirit indwelling us shouldn't lead to pantheism as understood by natural activities - like breathing in air or drinking water: that was always a false illustration. The Spirit deals only in divine reality, and as Christ's representative makes Christ's presence real to our minds and consciousness, which is creating in us the "mind of Christ", and should fill our whole life & experience. There's no mystical presence of natural phenomenon, here, since this is the divine Spirit making manifest divine grace in us with the presence of Christ, and all his righteousness.

We are infilled with Christ's presence through the Spirit, until Christ's righteousness expells all our sinful traits of character: having the Spirit of Jesus filling our lives with Jesus' righteousness isn't pantheistic, but it is having God's own presence in us and in our lives by his Spirit. That is very similar to pantheism, granted, but God's living presence is only found in his people, us believers, not throughout the rest of nature, where his power is evident - in sustaining nature; God's people are destined to experience, know and testify of God's presence living in them.

The salvivic issue regarding the Spirit of God for us is making known to us the will of God in Christ for us.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 08:29 PM

The "mind of Christ" we are to study, but the notion of the mind of the Spirit isn't revealed in Scripture, while his personal instruction of us in Christ's truths, including 'Christ's mind' place its own mind in the realm of golden silence on our part.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/10/06 08:30 PM

Regarding the pioneer's view, I'd have to study into this more to give an intelligent answer.

quote:
While Kellogg is now infamous for advocating pantheism in 1903 or so, his mistake was principlly teaching that the Holy Spirit was a being. The leading brethern rejected the notion of the Holy Spirit as a being, and Ellen White's Special Testimonies Series B - much of it written for the Kellogg crisis - clearly refutes a belief in the Spirit being a being, as excerpted above.

This doesn't make sense to me. First of all, how would believing the Holy Spirit is a being lead to pantheism? That's backwards. Secondly, how is it that EGW's quote "clearly" refutes that the Holy Spirit is a being?

Secondly regarding whether the Holy Spirit has an independent will, it seems to me personally to be clear that this has been revealed. John H.'s first post in this thread brings out many things the Spirit does. These are things that one associates with a being that has an independent will.

Finally, basing this on the answer to my previous questions as to whether we are dealing with 2 or 3 independent wills, I think you would either says just 1, or that this hasn't been revealed. Am I correct on this?

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/11/06 06:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Regarding the pioneer's view, I'd have to study into this more to give an intelligent answer.

quote:
While Kellogg is now infamous for advocating pantheism in 1903 or so, his mistake was principlly teaching that the Holy Spirit was a being. The leading brethern rejected the notion of the Holy Spirit as a being, and Ellen White's Special Testimonies Series B - much of it written for the Kellogg crisis - clearly refutes a belief in the Spirit being a being, as excerpted above.
This doesn't make sense to me. First of all, how would believing the Holy Spirit is a being lead to pantheism? That's backwards. Secondly, how is it that EGW's quote "clearly" refutes that the Holy Spirit is a being?

Kellogg landed in pantheism by making the Spirit a person just like God is - which was rejected by the leading Brethern, as well as the Spirit bringing God's presence and not just his power into all of nature to sustain it.

Looking back now to my earlier comments which you've excerpted here none of our pioneers used the noun "being" for the Holy Spirit, and I was countering with 'no being' the point they countered, of the Spirit having a personal physique like God (Father or Son) has, as we say 'human being'. They allowed divine person, but limited that to the Spirit of God proceeding from God. The word "being" implicitly includes a body, hence the dictionary distorts Scripture on that point. I'll deal with individuality below.

Sister White wrote those 'immortal words' "the Comforter...is the Spirit in the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest" divine power and grace to us believers (or very similar words), precluding the Spirit from having a body like Father and Son are said to have in this Testimony. I was dealing with your "being" as referring to a body.... Beyond the Spirit's permanent omnipresence here described, its personal set up is not for our study, is it? That golden silence of ours...

quote:
Secondly regarding whether the Holy Spirit has an independent will, it seems to me personally to be clear that this has been revealed. John H.'s first post in this thread brings out many things the Spirit does. These are things that one associates with a being that has an independent will.

The Spirit should be subservient to Father and Son, naturally, since it is sent by the Father on the Son's return to his Father. Since his personal acivity is implementing the will of God, the Spirit certainly acts independently of God. The Holy Spirit isn't just God's representative for Jesus on earth: it's been the Godhead's omnipresent representative for the Word's intelligent creation for all time, expressing the Godhead's will and leading with all truth - more slowing for us, though [Big Grin]

. Establishing its independent will by its representative activity for but independent of the other two may appear logical, but that's the Spirit's mystery - and boggles my mind to find it in the Bible, since it isn't revealed as a pertinent point or plainly, at all Our customary submission to God would in principle be impeded out of concern for the Spirit's independence...Trinitarianism is infamous here, again, for stating as revealed what isn't clearly revealed; you are quoting a trinitarian viewpoint, aren't you.

The Spirit certainly communicates to us God's will in Christ for our salvation: whether or not it has its own will isn't revealed by that very activity, since the Spirit's personality, as the Godhead's omnipresence, is mysterious on that point. Just as unfathomable as the Father begetting his own Son.

quote:
Finally, basing this on the answer to my previous questions as to whether we are dealing with 2 or 3 independent wills, I think you would either says just 1, or that this hasn't been revealed. Am I correct on this?

Primarily, it appears agreement on this point is not required to understand God properly by faith, since the 'will of God' is clearly harmonious, and is expressed unanimously in our salvation, and there 'God' is the divine family of God. Otherwise, there are at least 2 wills, in light of that heavenly counsel about the incarnation you quoted from Sister White's vision. The subservience of the Spirit while being of the Godhead is like the Son's subservience to the Father from the beginning - yet both are equally divine with the Father, bearing the authority of God the Father with them away from the Father's personal presence.

Again, seeking to ensure the Son and Spirit's independent freedom of will alongside God, in our understanding, actually calls into question the Godhead's glorious selflessness based in the Father's divine attitude and actions. The independent wills question for the persons of the Godhead is trinitarianism seeking to satisfy by human definitions the freedom of conscience we need to preserve among ourselves - but for the Godhead's glorious nature?! It's an absolutely irrelevant question, given the Bible history of divine nature and divine action. "Absolutely", because the Father as 'absolute' deity diplays his character as not raising this question, without exceptions.

That the Father and his Son exhibit individuality, does not mean that the Spirit of God, whom we submit to as having the authority of God, is clearly revealed to have it or not to have it, or required to have it as being equal and like the others: you're trying to logically deduce it...that is not our concern as children of God, recreated by the Spirit of God in the image of Jesus, God's own Son.

We are perfectly allowed & able to trust the Father in this, aren't we?

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/11/06 06:55 PM

quote:
Kellogg landed in pantheism by making the Spirit a person just like God is - which was rejected by the leading Brethern, as well as the Spirit bringing God's presence and not just his power into all of nature to sustain it.

You're just reiterating what you postulated before. It still doesn't make any sense to me. If Kellogg viewed the Holy Spirit as a person, that would make it LESS likely that he would be pantheistic, not more. The teaching of pantheism is that God is in everything. As an extereme example, you could look at a shoe and say, "that is God". If one views the Holy Spirit as impersonal, that could lead to a view where God is "in the shoe," but if the Holy Spirit if viewed as a person, that would counteract that way of thinking.

So I'm not seeing any logical connection in your assertion. It seems to me you are taking to logically unrelated facts and stringing them together in an illogical way. That is, you are postulated a causual relationship where one does not logically apply.

Here's an example. Rainfall is up in the Amazon this year. Pollution is L.A. is down. Therefore when rainfall is up in the Amazon, pollution in L.A. goes down.

Just because things 1 and 2 exist doesn't mean there is a causual relationship between the two things, or any relationship at all. Because Kellogg believed the Holy Spirit was a person and had pantheistic idea does not mean that His views of the Holy Spirit necessarily had anything more to do with his pantheistic ideas than the fact that he invented peanut butter. I would need to see some logical reason why his belief regarding the Holy Spirit would lead to pantheism. After all, most Christians would agree with Kellog's statement regarding the Holy Spirit, and very few are pantheists.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/12/06 07:19 AM

quote:
The word "being" implicitly includes a body, hence the dictionary distorts Scripture on that point. I'll deal with individuality below.

This is incorrect. The word "being" has to do with existence and being alive. It has nothing to do with bodies. Look at any definition to confirm this.

quote:
Sister White wrote those 'immortal words' "the Comforter...is the Spirit in the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest" divine power and grace to us believers (or very similar words), precluding the Spirit from having a body like Father and Son are said to have in this Testimony. I was dealing with your "being" as referring to a body.... Beyond the Spirit's permanent omnipresence here described, its personal set up is not for our study, is it? That golden silence of ours...

Again, "being" doesn't refer to "body."

Regarding the rest of your post, I had trouble following it. It appears you agree with me that from the SOP EW quote two wills were expressed, even before Christ was incarnate. So that Christ and the Father have seperate wills is not dependent upon Christ's being human. Hence it is possible that the Holy Spirit has an independent will as well, given that He is divine.

As to my question as to whether there are two or three wills involved in the Godhead is it your position that this has not been revealed? That's the answer it appeared to me you were giving to my question.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/12/06 01:34 PM

On Kellogg's pantheism you completely missed the 2nd half of my sentence.... [Confused]

quote:
the Spirit bringing God's presence and not just his power into all of nature to sustain it.

although you appear to agree with it while failing to spot it being stated by others [Roll Eyes]

quote:
The teaching of pantheism is that God is in everything

As for the Spirit's personhood, Kellogg understood it as involving a physique since the written response he received to his written and verbal discussions with our leading brethern on his understanding, was that the Spirit did not have a body like we do or the Father and Son do....

Whatever you yourself consider significant or not about the Spirit having or not having a body, Kellogg insisted that it did, "since", as he himself put it, our church understood the Spirit to be "a person", and he pointed to EGW's own use of the word. No, that dispute didn't touch on the Spirit's individuality or otherwise; some trinitarian definitions do have the Spirit with a body.

Indeed Kellogg's pantheistic ideas involved the oxygen we breath as being divine with God's presence through his Spirit, or water that we drink...he appeared only to use such Biblical 'items' as might illustrate God's nature to us, like water or air.

While our church published the Spirit-without-a-body belief evident in the quotes I included in this thread, and held to the Spirit's literal procession from Father and/or Son, unlike today, there were no postulations about his nature beyond firmly distinguishing his personality from theirs while asserting the Spirit to be a person. This seems a safe limit to place on interpreting the Biblical data....The only other systematic writings were aimed at stopping Kellogg bringing in error about "God's nature".

It is human reasoning to try to develop an individuality for every person of the Godhead, since it is argued the three persons must all equally alike be persons else there is no linguistic sense to be had. You hone in on "being" as the basis for a person. That word can confuse, as we've discovered here, when dealing with the mystery of the Spirit's nature. The possibility of a free will for the Spirit is a suggestion based on too many logical steps beyond Scripture's revelation, for faith here to be "the evidence of things unseen" and not read in the Word. One might say it is probable, but there's not even a direct hint in the Bible of it being a reality, from God's recorded dealings with us.

The reasoning for the Bible's divine persons having to have a will is trinitarian science trying to equate them in every respect: getting down to the finest detail, which, sadly, hasn't actually been set out in Scripture. That's where one should stay with Scripture. We submit to the Spirit's leading on the will of God, in the name of Jesus: more about the Spirit we cannot know for certain from the written Word. You still disagree, don't you? [Cool]

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/12/06 06:15 PM

Regarding my questions, it's a bit frustrating to have to keep repeating the same question over and over again. If you feel you cannot answer my question, then please preface your remarks in some way, something like "I can't give you a yes or no answer, but ..." or whatever. Instead of this, I get a long answer, but I still don't know what you think in regards to my question.

For example:

quote:
As to my question as to whether there are two or three wills involved in the Godhead is it your position that this has not been revealed? That's the answer it appeared to me you were giving to my question.

Either this is accurate, or it's not. Please answer "Yes, this is what I think" or "No, this isn't what I think" and then go ahead and elaborate. Please pardon me if you think I'm being obtuse and you are answering my question and I'm not getting it, but I'm not getting it. I'm interested in knowing if I am understanding your position well enough to accurately represent it. If I can't accurately represent it, then I'd like further clarification, until I can. Thanks!

Regarding Kellogg, if he was reasoning that a person has to have a body, then it appears he had a limited view of the word "person" which is akin to "human being." God is a divine being, so clearly care is needed is describing Him as a "person."

Regarding "being", there's nothing difficult about this word, as it simply means one who is alive, one who exists.

Posted By: Colin

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/12/06 08:31 PM

Sorry, I was behaving too much like a theologian, with just plenty of detail...

On the Holy Spirit's free will I can't and I don't think we collectively can give a yes or no answer because whatever possibilities get logically deduced for its free will from what little is revealed, it takes too much deduction. We're not supposed to work so hard to deduce the Spirit's nature, since we're not supposed to understand the Spirit's nature: just submit to the Spirit which comes in Jesus' name. We are told to follow the Spirit's leading into all truth as it is in Jesus, not work out the Spirit's 'freedom of conscience' mind set for that task with us, or representing God's truth elsewhere in the universe.

Kellogg wasn't in tune with his fellow Adventist leaders at all in understanding God's nature: he didn't have any theological ecumen for the topic, and wouldn't learn from those who did.

quote:
Regarding Kellogg, if he was reasoning that a person has to have a body, then it appears he had a limited view of the word "person" which is akin to "human being." God is a divine being, so clearly care is needed is describing Him as a "person."

No, care is only necessary in describing the Spirit as a person - the Father and Son are clearly divine beings and persons, in the ordinary sense.

quote:
Regarding "being", there's nothing difficult about this word, as it simply means one who is alive, one who exists.

The Holy Spirit as a person would be a self-conscious being according to the Spirit's personal nature - I can't say more than that toward your question. I side with our church's pioneers on the Spirit's personality and procession from God, and that doesn't extend to ascertain the Spirit's free will while he is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead.

Sorry again for absentmindedly dragging this discussion round and round.

Posted By: Redfog

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/13/06 01:29 AM

Has this been posted?

"The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God." "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/13/06 05:27 AM

I'll try again:

quote:
As to my question as to whether there are two or three wills involved in the Godhead, is it your position that this has not been revealed?

If the answer to this is "yes", you don't have to explain, as you have already explained your thoughts well (I just want to make sure I've understood them correctly). If your answer is "no", then please do explain, as I've misunderstood you. The "you" here is just you, a singular "you".

quote:
No, care is only necessary in describing the Spirit as a person - the Father and Son are clearly divine beings and persons, in the ordinary sense.

Here's are definitions of "persons" in the order I came across them:

quote:
A human being

quote:
In colloquial English, person is often synonymous with human.

quote:
In philosophy, there have been debates over the precise meaning and correct usage of the word, and what the criteria for personhood are.

I'll stop here. I think this should be sufficient to establish the point that care *is* necessary when discussing God as a person, whether we are speaking of Father, Son or Holy Spirit.

Posted By: Tom

Re: God: The Holy Spirit - 01/16/06 11:08 PM

Here's a couple of quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy. I can't remember if these were posted already. The second is especially telling I think.

quote:
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. (5 SDABC 1110)

"Dignitaries" is the interesting word here.

quote:
The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan
of redemption. Counsels on Health, 222.

This quote seems to make a couple of points clear. First of all, the SOP is using "Godhead" as a collective noun here, as opposed to using the term to mean "nature." Secondly she uses the pronoun "Themselves." Thirdly, she speaks of how they, including the Holy Spirit, gave themselves to the working of the plan of redemption.

Thus the Holy Spirit has a self which can be given to doing a task. This language is indicative of a being capable of independent thought and action.