Apostleship
Quote:
Which brings me back to the SOP. Ellen White was much more than a prophet: I have no doubt she was an apostle.
Quite a bold statement IMO. It raises interest in the biblical criteria for apostleship. What is said about it?
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I created a new topic on this from this post. - Daryl 
Posted By: Will
Re: Apostleship - 05/27/06 11:10 PM
The criteria I found for an Apostle is one has to be sent out by Jesus Christ Himself.
God Bless,
Will
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Topic name change correction only. - Daryl
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Apostleship - 05/28/06 12:37 AM
Will,
Isn't that a term for a disciple?
Isn't an apostle a person who has seen Jesus?
Isn't that why Paul is called an apostle as he saw Jesus on the Damascus Road?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Apostleship - 05/28/06 12:49 AM
To facilitate this topic, I am quoting from the SDA Bible Commentary's Bible Dictionary on what an apostle is.
Quote:
Apostle. [Gr. apostolos, from apo, “off,” “away,” and stello, “to send,” “to dispatch”; thus literally, “one sent forth,” and by extension, “a messenger,” “an ambassador.” In classical Greek apostolos is frequently used of a ship or fleet dispatched on a merchant or naval expedition; of the captain of a ship or the commander of a naval squadron; of a representative in the sense of an ambassador or envoy. In Koine Greek, the Greek in which the NT was written, apostolos is also used with these 2 general applications: (1) to things, and (2) to persons. It appears with the connotations of a ship sent, a cargo dispatched; of the documents that represent the ship and its cargo, the bill of lading, or, perhaps, the export license. It is used of persons in the sense of ambassador, envoy, delegate. Josephus uses this word when speaking of the ambassadors whom the Jews sent as their representatives to Rome (Ant. xvii. 11. 1).]
In NT usage apostolos carries the ideas of mission and representation. The term appears in the record of Jesus’ ordaining and sending forth His disciples on an evangelistic mission (Mt 10:2–6). It is probable that Jesus on this occasion used the Aramaic sheléÆach, the equivalent of the Hebrew participle shaluach, “sent.” This Semitic term of which apostolos is the Greek equivalent appears to have had a technical use among the Jews. In rabbinical literature it appears with reference to authoritative messengers and representatives, such as those responsible for gathering offerings from among the Diaspora Jews. It seems apparent that apostolos is used in the NT, in the main, with a similar technical significance.
The term apostolos is used in the Gospels, with one exception (Lk 11:49), only with reference to the Twelve whom Jesus called and sent out. These 12 were Andrew and his brother Simon, later known as Simon Peter (Mt 4:18–20; Mk 1:16–18; Lk 6:14; Jn 1:35–42); James and his brother John, sons of Zebedee (Mt 4:21, 22; Mk 1:19, 20; Lk 6:14); Philip (Jn 1:43, 44); Nathanael, also named Bartholomew (Jn 1:45–51); Matthew, also called Levi (Mt 9:9; Mk 2:14; Lk 5:27, 28); Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus; Simon the Zealot or Cananaean; Judas, brother of James; and Judas Iscariot. There are 3 complete listings of the 12 apostles in the NT (Mt 10:2–4; Mk 3:14–19; Lk 6:13–16). A 4th listing (Acts 1:13) omits the name of Judas Iscariot. A comparison of the order of the names in these listings shows that the names are apparently given in no particular order, with the exception of Simon Peter, Philip, and James the son of Alphaeus, whose names appear 1st, 5th, and 9th, respectively, in each list. This has led to the suggestion that there were 3 groups of 4, headed by these 3 men. See names of individual apostles. Of the Twelve, Peter, James, and John seem to have been singled out for special privileges. They were present at the raising from death of the daughter of Jairus (Mk 5:37–42); at the transfiguration of Jesus (Mt 17:1, 2); and in the Garden of Gethsemane during the agony (Mk 14:32, 33). This was no doubt due to the fact that these 3 had a clearer comprehension of, and a deeper sympathy with, the work and teachings of Jesus. One of the Twelve, Judas Iscariot, became a traitor, and later Matthias was elected to fill his office and thus to preserve the original number of the 12 apostles (Acts 1:15–26).
“The term apostolos, however, is not restricted to the Twelve. When Paul, in defending himself against those who challenged his ministry, laid claim to being an apostle, he used the word in its technical sense, giving as proof of his apostleship the fact that he had seen the Lord (1 Cor 9:1, 2; cf. Acts 1:21, 22, 25) and had received a direct commission (Gal 2:8, 9; cf. Rom 1:1).
The term “apostle” is applied also to Barnabas (Acts 14:14); to Apollos, whom Paul includes among the apostles who have become “a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men” (1 Cor 4:6, 9); and to Silvanus and Timothy, who are described as “apostles of Christ” (1 Th 1:1; 2:6).
Horn, Siegfried H., Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary, (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association) 1979.
The above also includes Barnabas, Apollos, Silvanus, and Timothy as apostles.
Posted By: Will
Re: Apostleship - 05/28/06 04:24 AM
Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say. An Apostle is one who has seen Christ, and also sent by Christ personally. The wierd thing I have noticed is that the word Apostle in the concordance is the same word usage, even when referring to Christ ?! However Christ was sent by the Father so it is appropriate, correct me if I am wrong in that.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Apostleship - 05/28/06 05:55 AM
I never thought of Christ before as an apostle, but as the Saviour.
I understand an apostle as a person who both seen Christ and was sent by Christ.
Christ, the Son, was sent by God, the Father, to reveal His true character that had been confused by the deceptions of the devil, and to become the Saviour of the world.
Posted By: Will
Re: Apostleship - 05/28/06 09:10 AM
Christ as our Apostle is found in Hebrews Chapter3. It is interesting, and I had read that a long time ago, but seeing it again was refreshing.
I think I will read more as to why He is called our Apostle, not that I have a problem with that, and if I did then it would be my problem, but I am teachable and willing to learn and grow.
God Bless,
Will
Here are some bible passages describeing apostleship I found interesting:
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Luk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
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Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name;
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Quote:
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honorable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
1Co 4:12 And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Quote:
2Co 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2Co 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
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2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
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ph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
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Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
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1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
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Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honor than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Quote:
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
I think it is safe to say that it takes a humble man to be apointed to be an apostle.
/Thomas
Concerning Jesus as an apostle, here are some commentary info:
John Wesley
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Heb 3:1 - The heavenly calling - God calls from heaven, and to heaven, by the gospel. Consider the Apostle - The messenger of God, who pleads the cause of God with us. And High Priest - Who pleads our cause with God. Both are contained in the one word Mediator. He compares Christ, as an Apostle, with Moses; as a Priest, with Aaron. Both these offices, which Moses and Aaron severally bore, he bears together, and far more eminently. Of our profession - The religion we profess.
Robertsons word pictures
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The Apostle and High Priest of our confession (ton apostolon kai archierea tēs homologias hēmōn). In descriptive apposition with Iēsoun and note the single article ton. This is the only time in the N.T. that Jesus is called apostolos, though he often used apostellō of God’s sending him forth as in Joh_17:3 (apesteilas). This verb is used of Moses as sent by God (Exo_3:10). Moffatt notes that apostolos is Ionic for presbeutēs, “not a mere envoy, but an ambassador or representative sent with powers.” The author has already termed Jesus high priest (Heb_2:17). For homologia (confession) see 2Co_9:13; 1Ti_6:12. These Hebrew Christians had confessed Jesus as their Apostle and High Priest. They do not begin to understand what Jesus is and means if they are tempted to give him up. The word runs through Hebrews with an urgent note for fidelity (Heb_4:14; Heb_10:23). See homologeō (homon, same, legō, say), to say the same thing, to agree, to confess, to profess.
Does any of this information add weight to Ellen being an apostle or not?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/06/06 01:50 PM
She refers to herself as the Lord's messenger. So, she claims to be sent by God with a message. And she says at one point the the term prophet cannot apply to her work because her work encompasses much more than that. Since 'prophet' is not adequate, and it is the second gift, the only broader term left is 'apostle.'
That is her own testimony, but what about the evidence. How does her life compare with the known apostles. Notice that Westley correctly includes Moses in the catigory of Apostles. The office did not begin with the 12. Clearly, when Paul was added, it showed that the gift was not exclusive to them. And since the gifts of the spirit predate Penticost, we're justified in looking at some of the OT prophets as also being endowed with the apostolic gift. I believe Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel were probably also Apostles.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/06/06 06:18 PM
If the criteria for being an apostle is to have seen Jesus Christ and to be sent by him, many fit that.
Tom
Could you elaborate on that?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/06/06 09:15 PM
Jesus Christ has manifest Himself to many people, in very striking ways. For example, Waggoner, commenting on his own experience, says he doesn't think it possible that Paul's experience could have been any more vivid (not sure what the best word to use here) than his. (Waggoner saw Christ crucified "as bright as the noon-time sun" is how I think he put it). Many have had very striking experiences where Jesus Christ appeared to them.
All who are Christ's are sent, are they not? We all have the mission of proclaiming the Gospel.
I think the idea of a spiritural hierarchy may be a vestigial idea from Romanism. The Scriptural idea seems to me to be that we are all members of the body of Christ, each one with gifts and an important function to play.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/06/06 11:56 PM
The natural mind finds distasteful the ideas of the sovereignty of God as a great King, Christ as His regent, commander and chief of the hosts of heaven, rightful sovereign of earth and heaven and a human leadership on earth based on spiritual values and gifts. But regarding the earthy hierarchy of the church, the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem are the 12 apostles, the building confirming the leadership position of apostleship. The paradox of the Biblical hierarchy is that we have only one head, Christ, and all of us are brothers. That is the essential difference between a political hierarchy and a spiritual one. Apostleship does not in any way dilute or undermine the brotherhood of the saints.
But the scripture also doesn’t dilute the meaning of the gift by assigning it to everyone who has seen Christ and who has been sent with a message. Apostleship is much more than this. It is the type of commission that the disciples, Moses and some of the important prophets of the OT received directly from Christ. In contrast, Waggoner did not receive a direct commission in the same way these others did. He was not, for example, told to refer to himself as the 'Lord's messenger'. So, in addition to being sent and being commissioned by Christ, apostleship also includes two other characteristics - a leadership role and a role as an expositor of truth, the latter being inspired by the prophetic gift.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/07/06 12:15 AM
The gift of apostleship can function in periods of apostacy. Jeremiah was commissioned as a youth but his sacred credentials were scorned and tradition has it that he died a maryter's death, sawn in two. So the leadership aspect has to be understood in the context of the spiritual health of the church. Ellen White was effectively undermined in influence by our elected leaders I think at more than one point in her life.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/07/06 01:19 AM
Mark,
Regarding Waggoner, the Spirit of Prophecy stated that he (and Jones) had been given "the most precious truths ever committed to mortals" which seems to me like it should count for something.
Regarding the test of apostleship, I wish to make clear that I did not suggest that seeing Jesus Christ and being sent by him was a sign of such. Someone else wrote that. I merely commented that if that were all that were necessary, there are many who would fit that.
Regarding the things you wrote regarding Apostleship, on what is that based? Can you quote Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy or something to support what you're writing? Doesn't "apostle" simply mean someone who is sent? I'm not aware of any developed theology of apostleship in Scripture.
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the whole ball of wax. He is the head and we are the body. We each have different gifts and a role to play.
This isn't a subject I've studied out, so I'm just asking for some sort of evidence for a position that's suggested.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Apostleship - 06/08/06 04:44 AM
I never thought of Christ as an apostle, but as the Apostle as another name for His function as part of the Godhead, in which His role was to be our Redeemer.
As Christ the Son was sent by the Father to reveal His true character, so Christ the Son also sends His apostles to testify of Him.
In the same sense of being God's messenger, EGW could also be considered an apostle, although I also never previously thought of her that way.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/08/06 07:41 AM
Given that "apostle" means one who is sent, this certainly applies for Christ in terms of His being the representative of God.
Tom
Does that mean that you regard the books written by Waggoner as equal with those written by Ellen (and equal to the bible in authority)?
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/08/06 04:58 PM
Regarding a rule of faith, the Bible is it, which is what the Spirit of Propecy says, as well as being Protestant tradition. Regarding Sister White's role, I have complete confidence that she was a mengenger of the Lord, and that God used her in the way she indicated.
In terms of truth, I look at things in terms of God's wanting to communicate it to us. I try to understand the truths that God is communicating to us, regardless of the source. Truth is truth, regardless of the source. All truth comes from God.
The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the most precious truths ever committed to mortals were given to us through Jones and Waggoner. I don't think it was her intent to place them above the Bible in terms of authority, but to point out the importance of the truths God communicated to us, and His interest in our learning them. What do you think?
I think you present a healthy approach on seeking truth here. God is in the buisness of making the truth about Himself available to people on earth, has done so primarily trough Jesus and the 66 books of the bible, has and is doing so secoundarily trough the all those who took/take on the yoke of Jesus and follw Him wherever He goes. And all secoundary sources are to be compared for accuracy with the primary sources. Are we saying the same thing?
/Thomas
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/08/06 11:57 PM
I think we agree closely with your statement Thomas.
Tom, regarding the scripture I use to support my narrower application of the gift of apostleship, I don't have more to add than what I've cited for now. I'm suggesting that the references I've given are the support for what I've posted.
As with apostleship, we could also make a broad application of the prophetic gift because we know that prophecy has more to do with doctrine and teaching than it does predicting the future but it would be a mistake to attribute that gift to anyone who teaches, even if their docrtine is sound. In addition, it's also true that all of us have a measure of the prophetic gift because it is the prophetic gift in us that enables us to interpret the inspired teachings of the prophets and apostles. But we don't normally claim to have that gift in the scriptural sense.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/09/06 01:26 AM
Yes, Thomas, I think we're saying the same thing.
Regarding prophecy, I think it's debatable that the term, as Paul used it, was meant to be as narrow as we commonly used it. I think the word in the Greek can be understand simply as meaning to communicate truth received by God.
Ellen White referred to Jones and Waggoners as "prophets," although her work was different in character than theirs (God sent them to teach righteousness by faith - she had a broader ministry than that).
Actually as I re-read your post, Mark, it seems you're saying the same thing I would say. In the sense that Ellen White was a prophet, the word "prophet" is very narrow in scope. In the sense of interpreting inspired teachings, as you put it, it is broader in scope, and a gift which Paul suggested we should all seek.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/09/06 03:07 PM
Yes, Paul urges us
all to especially desire the gift of prophecy, but there are degrees of the gift. While everyone is urged to seek the Holy Spirit for a portion of that gift, we are also told that our prophesying should be in porportion to our faith.
12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith; Romans
So again, we are not all prophets but we all should have a measure of the gift. In the days of Saul, a common saying in Israel was, "Is Saul among the prophets" and one of the reasons for the question was that on one occasion when Saul came to capture David at Ramah, knowing that God had taken the kingdom from him and given it to David, that God intervened set a prophetic spirit on Saul so that he threw off his clothes and prophesied naked. So the answer to the question was clearly 'no', but it underscored the point that God is well able to place a prophetic spirit on anyone He chooses, even on a man who has repeatedly grieved His Spirit, as in the cases of Saul, Balaam and Caiphas. The account is in I Sam 19.
I tried to find the statement you referred to in the SOP where she refers to Jones and Waggoner as prophets but couldn't locate it. Can you find that for us? While looking, I did find the statement below where Ellen White says Jones is under a spell of unbelief in regard to her prophet gift and urges him to return to his earlier faith. This story is a poignant reminder of the human fraility of even those blessed with great truth and our need to test the teachings of everyone against the Word. In the cases of Jones and Waggoner its helpful to know when they wrote or said something. Notice that Ellen White ends this passage with a prediction of the increasing role of the gifts in the church:
Quote:
It has been presented to me that I must speak to you [A. T. Jones], for you need help in order to break the spell that has been upon you. If you would humble your heart before the Lord, and accept the light that He has given you, you would have help from God. {9MR 278.1}
I have been instructed to use those discourses of yours printed in the General Conference Bulletins of 1893 and 1897, which contain strong arguments regarding the validity of the Testimonies, and which substantiate the gift of prophecy among us. I was shown that many would be helped by these articles, and especially those newly come to the faith who have not been made acquainted with our history as a people. It will be a blessing to you to read again these arguments, which were of the Holy Spirit's framing. {9MR 278.2}
Be assured, Elder Jones, that if you see your mistake in pursuing the course you have for some time been following, and take your position on the side of truth in regard to this question, the spell that is upon you will be broken. We call upon you to take your stand on the Lord's side, and act your part as a loyal subject of the kingdom. Acknowledge the gift that has been placed in the church for the guidance of God's people in the closing days of earth's history. From the beginning the church of God has had the gift of prophecy in her midst as a living voice to counsel, admonish, and instruct. We have now come to the last days of the work of the third angel's message, when Satan will work with increasing power because he knows that his time is short. At the same time there will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/09/06 10:21 PM
1.I couldn't find the statement. I remember it in its generality, but unfortunately "prophets" is such a common word that it's not too helpful to try to find it.
She referred to Jones and Waggoner as prophets in an indirect way, by quoting a Scripture which spoke of "prophets." She was commenting on their being servants of the Lord, and quoted this Scripture, which had the word "prophets" in it. Sorry I can't remember more than that.
If you're really interested in it, I know someone who would very likely know it, and could get it to you that way, although I'm a bit reticent to bug him about this, unless it's something you consider to be very important.
2.I understand that the prophetic spirit in the sense of Saul and the others was the Lord's revealing truth to them, which I guess is the same as in any case. It's true that the Lord does not usually reveal truth to those who are rejecting Him in such a striking fashion, since they have no use of it, but He at times has done this as a means of reaching others. God works in interesting ways, doesn't He? I don't understand that God took possession of them like demonic angels do, since God does not force the will of judgment of any, to use the Spirit of Prophecy's phraseology.
3.I think it's somewhat helpful to know when Jones and Waggoner said things, especially for those not familiar with their work, or unfamiliar with the truths they presented. But really one should be able to identify truth without this crutch. For example, Luther wrote many wonderful things, but also something which weren't right. How do we know which is which? We don't have the Spirit of Prophecy to tell us what dates we should be looking at. We identify truth by validating it against things we already know to be true, and by the help of the Holy Spirit:
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 John 2:26, 27)
Jones preached a sermon in which he pointed out that even if the devil should say the truth, we should be able to recognize it by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. If only one out of ten thousand words is truth, He will bear witness to that. Something like that. This was the first sermon of either the 1893 or 1895 GCB.
We should be able to know and identify truth without the Spirit of Prophecy telling us what it is or isn't. Her endorsements seem to make little difference. At least that's been my experience. People believe what they want to believe.
4.I'm quibbling a bit perhaps about some of the details, or making some comments about certain points where I could see someone taking something wrong (perhaps in a different way than you intended), but I wanted to commend you on your post. I thought it was quite good.
Quote:
Acknowledge the gift that has been placed in the church for the guidance of God's people in the closing days of earth's history. From the beginning the church of God has had the gift of prophecy in her midst as a living voice to counsel, admonish, and instruct. We have now come to the last days of the work of the third angel's message, when Satan will work with increasing power because he knows that his time is short. At the same time there will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.
I hear (and have seen some) that this is true in some SDA churches. But not in the average church. Why is this? Some maybe explained by fear of anything pentecostal, some maybe explained by lukewarmness and lack of commitment to God, and maybe some is explained by people living this life but not telling anyone in church for one or another reason. And maybe the truth about this is yet something different from what I could think of.
Quote:
3.I think it's somewhat helpful to know when Jones and Waggoner said things, especially for those not familiar with their work, or unfamiliar with the truths they presented. But really one should be able to identify truth without this crutch. For example, Luther wrote many wonderful things, but also something which weren't right. How do we know which is which? We don't have the Spirit of Prophecy to tell us what dates we should be looking at. We identify truth by validating it against things we already know to be true, and by the help of the Holy Spirit:
Spirit of Prophecy adventist definition of Spirit of Prophecy biblical definition?
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/10/06 01:33 AM
The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the message of righteousness by faith which Jones and Waggoner brought us was the beginning of the loud cry (which she also associated with the latter rain):
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The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth. (1888 Materials p. 1073)
The light which is to fill the earth with glory has not been received. Until it is, the latter rain is on hold.
So what about those people who are daily experiencing things that are regularily identified with the latter rain?
/Thomas
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/10/06 04:27 PM
You're saying Thomas that there are some individuals and churches you're aware of where there are clear manifestations of the gifts? If you think some of those manifestations would help the forum, feel free to open a thread on that.
I agree with your definition of the spirit of prophecy. Ellen White would agree as well and in fact this what she is saying in the above quote - the spirit of prophecy has always been manifested in the church.
And I agree that many in the church have and will brace themselves against spiritual manifestations. Satan will use our healthy perspective on tongues and play on our prejudices and fears so that many also reject the genuine article. Then there will be those, probably more common, who will accept a counterfeit spirit. As the celebration style of worship opens the door for a feelings-based religion hyper-feeling is viewed as the moving of the Spirit.
My reason for asking us to consider the Biblical role of the gifts in the church, especially prophecy and apostleship, is because these genuine gifts will be manifested more clearly in the future so it is important to understand what they are. As she says:
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[T]here will come to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, diversities of operations in the outpouring of the Spirit. This is the time of the latter rain.
"Diversities of operations" indicates that the gifts will provide the mandate or job descriptions. Not everyone will be a prophet, not everyone will be an apostle, not everyone an evangelist. That is for the Holy Spirit to decide. It was the Holy Spirit who directed the apostles in filling the vacant place of Judas. It may not be long before we see that few Adventists will be able to tell the real from the counterfeit and much of the responsibility for this must rest with leaders who have allowed and in many cases nurtured the current state of affairs in the church.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/11/06 05:55 AM
Thomas, I think they are in error if they think the latter rain is falling and there is no connection with the beginning of the latter rain. How could God just pretend like the beginning never happened? Consider the following statement from the Spirit of Prohecy:
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An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded
in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234)
Note this says the message will lighten the whole earth with glory. This is a reference to Rev. 18:1, which is "that other angel" which EGW often relates to "the loud cry of the third angel's message" and "the latter rain."
Many people think of the latter rain in terms of impressive spiritual gifts, but this is not how it was manifest when it was falling (in the 1888 era). The latter rain was falling in the form of a message, in the form of light and truth. A. T. Jones talks about this in the 1893 GCB. He points out that the latter rain passage in Joel 2 can be understood as "a teacher according to righteousness" from the Hebrew (sorry, I don't remember the details better. You can find it from the above mentioned 1893 GCB sermons). So both from Joel 2 as well as from statements of the Spirit of Prophecy the latter rain was seen as a message.
Most people nowadays are unaware of the Spirit of Prophecy statements that the latter rain was falling in the form of a message, and think that the latter rain has to do with other things completely unrelated to truth or a message. But it is the message which distinguishes this church from others.
In Rev. 14 it talks about the 144,000 as a group with no guile, meaning that they will tell the truth. It is the truth which will prepare the world for the coming of Christ.
In the book "The Great Controversy" EGW speaks of how the enemy will seek to confuse the issue with false movements which are characterized by impressive outward demonstrations.
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It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)
When the latter rain really falls, it will do so in the form of a message which makes clear these issues. A message of clarity regarding the Gospel, regarding God's character, will lighten the earth with glory.
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It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
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You're saying Thomas that there are some individuals and churches you're aware of where there are clear manifestations of the gifts? If you think some of those manifestations would help the forum, feel free to open a thread on that.
Mark
Yep, I know of some. I have meet both individuals and persons leading out in the church, but I havent been there myself due to distance. Its abroad. Im not sure how opening a thread on it would help the forum.
Tom
I havent spoken enough with the church people to know what they think about the latter rain, only enough to know that they are experiencing things that you otherwise mostly read about in acts, or in Ellens biography if you are so inclined.
Now that you mention it, the gifts of the Spirit often follow the preaching of the gospel, rather than the other way around.
But your argument, if I correctly understood it, is based on an assumption that unless all of the SDA church is ready to recieve Gods blessing, noone will get it.
Ive read a book wich gets into this question. It is an biography over events which have happened from around 1970 to around 1995 in china. Its name is The Heavenly Man. Its well worth reading.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/12/06 05:52 AM
No, no, no, Thomas. Not all. That would never happen. What's needed mostly is for the leadership to respond. When we've seen revival in the past in Scripture, it's been when leadership has taken the lead. It's difficult for the laity to get things going. This is why Christ spent so much time and effort trying to win the Pharisees (a point often missed, but true).
When the latter rain began to fall in the 1888 era, it was the leadership that stifled it, which you may be aware of if you have studied the 1888 message at all. The statement which I've quoted several times bears this out:
An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234)
The "our own brethren" referred to here is the leadership which resisted the message. The common SDA person never heard the message. Satan succeeded in shutting away from the our people the special power of the Holy Spirit God longed to give (this is talking about the latter rain here -- note it's connected to the Gospel message!).
The Spirit of Prophecy spoke of how God could get things done even without the leadership cooperating, so it's possible things could transpire by some other means, although the most likely scenario seems to me would be for the leadership to wake up to what the Spirit of Prophecy is saying here. But regardless of how it happens, it's a sure thing that the message that will "lighten the earth with glory" will be in the thick of things. If we see special manifestations like recorded in Acts, without the Gospel being presented, that should make alarms go off to us.
Conserning revival in the bible, think of the egyptian slaves. Did God send one of their elders or did He send a sheepherd since 40 years? Think of the judges time, did God send in the leader of the tribes or did he choose terrified peasants and women? Think of the times of king Saul, did God send revival trough Saul or did He anoint the younges brother in a large family whos work thus far had been (again) tending to sheep? And of course in Jesus time, when He had a following of both fishermen and pharisee (and probably priest), did He choose the pharisee or the fishermen to lead among the following He had? Jesus could have choosen Nicodemus or maybe Joseph of Arimathea from the Sandhedrin, yet He choose John and Peter.
I think you may have goten things backwards. In the bible, God generally didnt choose leaders, those God choose became leaders precisely becourse God had choosen them.
Besides, I havent heard anything about the gospel not being presented amongst these people.
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/12/06 07:08 PM
Throughout history God's denominated people have resisted Him. There have been very brief moments of revival, but God has never been able to do what He wanted to do. When God sent servants, they killed them. When He sent His Son, they killed Him to.
Referring to the 1888 era, Ellen White says that had Christ been personally present, we would have treated Him as the Jews (we being the GC delegates meeting in 1888), which is to say, we would have killed Him too.
However, at some point in history there must be a change. Who am I to limit God? I'm not saying that if the leadership were to refuse to cooperate that this would prevent God from accomplishing His work, but I have a firm conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist church will not apostatize, and that it will accomplish it's God given role of preparing the world for the coming of Christ. I do not see how this could be done without leadership being involved.
For sure, there will be a shake-up, as we are told that bright lights will go out. But I think there will be "bright lights" that will stay too. Some of our leadership will be converted, and some no doubt already are, ready to respond to the Lord's bidding.
The reformation I was thinking of was Josiah's. Whenever Israel had even the limited success it had, it seems to me it was by way of leadership. It was because of leadership that Israel rejected Christ. Leadership has great influence.
In the examples you gave, you showed that God chooses messengers from all walks of life. But I was speaking of reformation. Did Israel every have a successful reformation where leadership was not involved? I guess one could ask if Israel has a successful reformation at all.
At some point in time God will have a people who will follow the Lamb wherever He goes. The question comes as to why Christ hasn't come yet. There are some who think that it's just because the time hasn't come yet, but this flies in the face of both inspiration and what we know of God's character.
We are told that God sent a message for the explicity purpose of preparing the world for the coming of Christ, but our leadership prevented the message from getting out to the people. We are told this message will lighten the earth with glory. The most logical guess, it seems to me, is that one day the leadership will wake up, and get the message out. But again, God is God. He has many ways in which to work.
If Israel ever had a successful reformation, surely it was during the reign of David, whom we know only became a leader after God chose him.
If we go to examples in the church, what about the protestant reformation? Was it brought forth by the pope or one of the cardinals or was it brought forth by village priests and ordinary monks? Even the adventist reformation wasnt lead by any established christian leaders but by the preaching of a farmer. This is not to say that God cannot bring reformation trough established leadership, only that it is far from established procedure for that order of events to occur.
I wonder, are you not limiting God when suggesting that these churches/individuals whom I mentioned earlier are not genuinely Gods? And this even with the very limited information I knew and shared. And this becourse the GC people hasnt officially embraced Jones and Waggoner. I wonder, do you believe that the SDA church today or at some time before we will see Jesus come down on the clouds is/will be the same as the bride of Jesus, all counted and none missing?
/Thomas
Posted By: Charity
Re: Apostleship - 06/13/06 03:43 AM
You've got my attention Thomas. I think it would help the forum to hear about people who seem to have the gifts. Since you only know things second hand and only in a limited way, if the spirit moves you, invite some here who have broader, first hand knowledge. The christian living forum would be a good venue, and they're welcome to open a thread.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/13/06 08:26 AM
Thomas, I don't think God will take action in the future which ignores action He's taken in the past. If it was important in the past to give us a message, the purpose of which is to lighten the earth with glory to prepare for the coming of Christ, the "most precious truths ever given to mortals," I think any outpouring of the Holy Spirit now will build upon that, not ignore it.
I know nothing of the individuals or churches of which you spoke. I made no judgmental statements regarding them, nor will I do so. I don't know them. I suggested a principle, which is *IF* a movement going on now is ignoring what God was doing previously, I would be skeptical. Maybe the individuals or churches you are speaking of are building on top of the message. I don't know. I have no way of knowing. I'm just suggesting a principle which I think is valid, that truth is progressive, and God will build upon truth He has already revealed, not ignore it.
I do not believe this is limiting God in any way, but is simply in harmony with the way He has revealed Himself in the past.
What do you think? Is this a reasonable thing to suggest?
Regarding SDA's, I said in the previous post that many bright lights would be shaken out, so from that statement it should be very clear I wasn't saying "some time before we will see Jesus come down on the clouds is/will be the same as the bride of Jesus, all counted and none missing?"
I don't know where you would have gotten this idea from. I believe God will use the SDA church to communicate the truth which will prepare for the coming of Christ to the world, but those who receive that message will be from all faiths, of every tongue, and tribe, and people, and nation, as the Scripture says. No doubt the majority will not be SDA's. God has faithful people in all denominations, faiths, and religions.
Where I got that idea? Its called remnant theology and is something that shows its head in different SDA situations. You could find it in the archives at maritime... Note that I dont agree with the idea just becoure I am asking about it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Apostleship - 06/13/06 05:00 PM
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I wonder, do you believe that the SDA church today or at some time before we will see Jesus come down on the clouds is/will be the same as the bride of Jesus, all counted and none missing?
This is remnant theology?
The idea that all living believers at some point in time, at the very least when Jesus comes back, are either members of the SDA or, well, not believers, eg lost...
Maybe its not the official line, I dont really know, but you dont have to hunt for very long among at least the SDA net population to have this assured to you. If you agianst odds wouldnt find someone to tell you this, just search in a more conservative setting, any historic SDA would probably be fine.
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You're saying Thomas that there are some individuals and churches you're aware of where there are clear manifestations of the gifts? If you think some of those manifestations would help the forum, feel free to open a thread on that.
And I agree that many in the church have and will brace themselves against spiritual manifestations. Satan will use our healthy perspective on tongues and play on our prejudices and fears so that many also reject the genuine article. Then there will be those, probably more common, who will accept a counterfeit spirit. As the celebration style of worship opens the door for a feelings-based religion hyper-feeling is viewed as the moving of the Spirit.
I came to remember a personal encounter with this. A few years ago I was on a campmeeting on the theme of church planting. Half way trough my right foot became sore and of almost double size (probably bitten by something). I couldnt stand on it. Then in connection with the friday night meeting a pastor from one of the churches refered to prayed for each one in the group I was there with, and in my case specifically for the foot (also using oil). I walked normally out of the meeting, and the next morning it looked like normal again. It had been bad for two days and of course I cant know what would have happened without this prayer but what I do know is that I linked in and walked out.
/Thomas