What does it mean to be born again?

In discussing this topic on other threads, it appears to me that there is a great disagreement as to what this means, at least to one other regular poster on this forum. I thought I'd post my understanding of it, and my understanding of the other's perspective, and see what others here think.

I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ, accepting Him as personal Savior, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the love of God shining from the cross, moving one to repents of one's sins and give one's self to Christ. This process brings the repentant sinner into harmony with God, and necessarily into harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character. A converted person may fall into sin (although he need not), but he will not, as long as he is converted, rebelliously pursue sin.

MM's idea (please correct me if I misstate this), is that before a person can be converted, the Holy Spirit must reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and all these sins must be confessed. No one who drinks (any drinking at all), for example, is converted.

Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ."

What needs to be clarified here?

i'm really interested in the "new birth" or "born again."

using the EGW CD search, chasing the "new birth" was an eye-opener. for instance, it is stated that the night that Jacob had the ladder dream, he experienced the new birth. yet, he didn't have Jabok for 20 some years. what is the difference between the new birth, and Jabok?

what exactly is the new birth, or being born again? what is one's condition before and after? is this experienced once, or does it need to be repeated? and how often?

what is the difference between dying daily and the new birth? or is there any?

is the new birth equated with surrender?

how does one surrender? how does one surrender CONSTANTLY?

please use scripture in your replies...

Such as Eph. 6, where it states to "put on the armour" and "take the armour"... what is the difference between those statements, and what do they mean? how does one "put on the armour" and "take the armour" - according to scripture?


roxe
sorry for all the questions - i just want to understand, and it's difficult.

Good questions, roxe. Here are a few thoughts, which I hope will be helpful.

I know you asked for Scripture, but I'm going to start with the Desire of Ages, because this is the clearest explanation I know of:



This brings out that God draws us to Himself by revealing His love, especially by way of the cross. If we do not resist His drawing, we will be led to repentance. As we repent, we experience the miracle of the new birth, which is basically God reconciling us, or bringing us into harmony with Himself.

The "new birth" is synonomous with "conversion." So it can be applied to both the original experience whereby one is converted, as well as to the dying daily experience. Usually when one speaks of the new birth, one has the first experience in mind.

In terms of surrendering, one surrenders by believing. As Jesus said, "He who comes to me, I will in no way cast out."

Believing involves more than mental assent. It involves a uniting of the mind, heart and will with God's.

In terms of Scripture, the publican comes to mind:



To be justified is to be set right with God (or converted, born again). Here we see that he was born again as he simply asked for mercy.

In terms of surrendering constantly, I think something to keep in mind is what it is that God wants, so we don't misunderstand what surrendering is about. God does not want robots. The surrender He has in view is not a mindless one, where He tells us what to do, and we unthinkingly do it. Rather it is His desire that follow Him because we are convinced about Him; that we admire His character; that we believe in the principles by which He lives and governs.

Because God's ways are not our ways, and our perceptions of truth are off, when God reveals truth to us, there is always a challenge, or surrender, involved. We surrender by taking hold of the new wineskin and laying off the old, which is to say, by laying hold of the truths which God reveals to us.

MM: Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

TE: What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." What needs to be clarified here?

MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

Roxe, your questions indicate you know a lot about rebirth, which should make studying with you very rewarding.

1. What is the difference between the new birth, and Jabok?

MM: I have never heard of Jabok.

2. What exactly is the new birth, or being born again?

MM: Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5, 6) And Peter wrote, “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:22, 23)

What do these insights mean to you?

3. What is one's condition before and after?

MM: The following passages describe people before and after they are born again:

Ephesians
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

4. Is this experienced once, or does it need to be repeated? and how often?

MM: Jesus’ counsel about it suggests that it should only happen once, but there are those who backslide and need to be “born again” again.

5. What is the difference between dying daily and the new birth? or is there any?

MM: The day we are born again is the first day we die to sin, self, and Satan. “I die daily” (1 Cor. 15:31) cannot mean, I sin daily. Therefore, it must mean - I choose every day to maintain the death of sin, self, and Satan. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” (Col. 2:6, 7)

6. Is the new birth equated with surrender? How does one surrender? how does one surrender CONSTANTLY??

MM: Yes. But we must first understand what and who we are surrendering to. Rebirth is not an accident. Instead, it is the miraculous result of hearing and heeding the Word of God. It goes along with Jesus’ vine and branch illustration in John 15. It explains how born again believers constantly surrender.

7. How does one "put on the armour" and "take the armour" - according to scripture?

MM: Putting on and taking on armour refers to the same thing, namely, clothing ourselves in accordance with Paul’s illustration:

Ephesians
6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

MM: no i don't know alot about rebirth. i'm trying to figure it out. lots of confusion. Jabok=Jabbok, the brook where Jacob wrestled with Christ.
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Thanks Tom, for your trying to answer. it's not so easy to put this into words, is it.

what got me started on this, is the following statement:
"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ" (MS 148, 1897).

if the new birth was a rare experience in 1897, and we are getting worse and not better, it must be almost non-existant now.

no wonder it's so hard to explain... if it's so rare to experience.

if you have the EGW CD, put in "new birth" in quotes like that, and start reading the hits that come up. it is stated over and over in various ways what is stated in the quote above, that self does not die... all they have is their head converted, the heart has not been touched - and the new birth has not happened, they just think it has.

when the new birth really happens, everything changes, the tastes, actions, thoughts, desires, everything.

i'm confused about the following two quotes:

"The Lord gave to Jacob, the lonely traveler wandering in a dreary wilderness, a wonderful dream. Jacob lay down to rest at night with a stone for his pillow, and there the Lord gave to him a glorious vision. He saw a ladder, the base of which rested firmly on the earth, its top reaching to the very heavens. It was a ladder of shining brightness, for God stood at the top, and His glory streamed from heaven to earth. This was a symbol of the ladder which all who love God will ascend heavenward, round after round. That night Jacob, the petted son of his mother, experienced the new birth and became a child of God. In his discouraged state the light that came to him was regarded as most precious, and the hard stone on which his head rested the most desirable on which his head had ever rested."--Ms. 85, 1908, pp. 1-6. ("Cooperation Between Schools and Sanitarium," June 30, 1908.) {10MR 263.4}

"In his childhood, Joseph had been taught the love and fear of God. Often in his father's tent, under the Syrian stars, he had been told the story of the night vision at Bethel, of the ladder from heaven to earth, and the descending and ascending angels, and of Him who from the throne above revealed Himself to Jacob. He had been told the story of the conflict beside the Jabbok, when, renouncing cherished sins, Jacob stood conqueror, and received the title of a prince with God. {Ed 52.1}

ok, the first one states that the night of the ladder dream Jacob experienced the new birth, which means a complete change. the second quote states that he renounced cherished sins at the Jabbok?

so, is the new birth an on-going experience?? reading all the hits on the EGW cd, it seems that it is an almost instantaneous thing, a 180 degree change of direction.

i've heard say that sanctification is a work of a lifetime.

ok, i just can't seem to put this all together. i'm more confused now than before i started reading all the hits. i've heard that this is so simple that a child can understand it... maybe i haven't gotten to "childhood" yet?? :-)

roxe

Jabok is where Jacob became Israel and got a limp.

Roxe, what do you think about the rest of what others posted in response to your initial post?

Sister White’s insight about new birth being “rare” is, no doubt, more true today than it was when she first penned it. Both the Bible and the SOP make it clear that conversion and rebirth involves crucifying our “old man” habits of sin, which means people must first confess and forsake their sinful habits (not necessarily the millions of sins that formed the habits), in light of the cross, before they can experience the miracle of rebirth.

That’s what happened to Jacob the night he wrestled with the angel of the Lord. His conversion and rebirth was the result of a long, patient, protracted process. No one is born again in one second or one day. There is no such thing as “sudden” rebirth. Yes, partial birth conversions abound, but they do not count as true conversion in the eyes of God.

True, genuine conversion and rebirth results in a “new creature”. God implants within people, the instant the complete the process of conversion, the sinless, incorruptible seed (mind) of the “new man”. Then begins the “lifelong” process of sanctification, a process whereby newborn believers grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit. So long as they are “abiding” in Jesus, so long as they are “walking” in the Spirit and mind of the “new man”, they do not and “cannot” commit a known sin.

The following passages confirm these things:

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians
4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

just found, again, the following, which i had forgotten:

thank you, Jesus, for reminding me of this. i know YOU will change my confusion into solid truth and experience, for that is Your will for me.

MM: Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

TE: What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." What needs to be clarified here?

MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

Different in what way?

I wasn't speaking of staying born again, which you should have noticed by the fact that I wrote, "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." Had I been speaking of staying born again, I would have written something like, "Staying born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." (which is, of course, true, but wasn't my point.)

Roxe, please allow me to get to what I think the heart of the matter is before addressing your questions. It seems to me that you are concerned about your own experience. If the new birth is a rare thing, how can I know I've experienced it? That's the question, isn't it? How can I have assurance?

The quote you gave I think is an excellent one. It says, " He longs to have you reach after Him by faith. He longs to have you expect great things from Him. He longs to give you understanding in temporal as well as in spiritual matters."

The foundation for our assurance lies in God's character. If we look to self, we are lost. We know what we are like. But keeping in mind that *God* longs for good things from us can fill us with hope.

Here's an article from A. T. Jones which speaks of this. I found this to be very encouraging, and hope you do too:

Roxe, regarding your questions.

Although the new birth is rare, that doesn't mean it's difficult, or difficult to understand. Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." We know from personal experience that it is easier to live for Him than to live for self.

The reason it's rare is that many choose not to die to self, as Ellen White points out. This is, in my experience, either because they have not been driven to go to God because everything else has failed, or because they have not seen the beauty of His character.

Those who have had crises in their lives, due to the loss of a loved one, or some sickness (such as alcoholism, or others), sometimes give up, and are willing to give God a chance. Those who regular go to church often are not desperate, as their form of religion is sufficient. By sheer will power, we can talk ourselves into changing our behavior, into being religious.

If we look at the Pharisees, and the "sinners" in Christ's time, we see that the sinners were attracted to Christ, but the Pharisees, for the most part, hated Him. This is typical. When sinners catch a glimpse of the true God, they are often attracted to him, but holier than thou types hate Him, while professing to love Him, and without even recognizing it.

The quote you brought out earlier shows how God longs for our company, and how willing He is to lead us into truth. The truth is found in Christ. The simple truth that God is exactly like Jesus Christ is powerful enough to warm our hearts, to draw us to Himself. Bearing in mind His great love for us, and His desire that we be with Him, can buoy us with hope, knowing that if we ask Him for bread, He will not give us a stone.

thanks, tom, for that incredible quote. atj is difficult for me to read, but only becuz he doesn't put words the way i'm used to. i have to slow down when reading him... and try to put what he says into my own words. i don't know how many times i've read the 1893 and 1895 gc bulletin material, trying to grasp it. but praise God, it is getting easier!

i'm gonna be so GLAD when rev.20 happens, and we don't get the whispers, doubts, suggestions, impressions, insinuations, lies, gigo junk, etc., any longer!! no wonder we will be shouting thru all eternity--just to be free of that will be INCREDIBLE!!

i've been gently reminded yesterday and today of past leadings. and aren't we told to remember how God has led us in our past?? that's so we can keep that confidence inspite of not being able to "see" where we are going now.

yep, that's where faith comes in... that the leading is still going on right now, and keep praising HIM for it, no matter what we think we "see".

thanks for your prayers... you are in mine also :-)

roxe

ps. have you read the atj and ejw "lessons on faith" book?? whatchu think of them??
especially the creation vs evolution one??

Yes, remembering how we've been led in the past is very helpful. Also there's something to the effect of, when we're having difficulties, to remember the last place we received light, and go back to that.

The creation vs. evolution article is very nice. I like the Lessons on Faith articles O.K., but prefer the things written directly by Jones and Waggoner, rather than compiled, for the same reason as I prefer EGW's writings as she published them (as opposed to compilations). When you deal with compilations, you have to take into account that someone else is selecting the writings for you, as opposed to the author, so there's always the possibility of things being lumped together in a way which gives an impression the original author would not have desired.

Here's another quote from the Spirit of Prophecy which I have found encouraging:



This is in particular the part I find encouraging. I like how it defines being perfect in terms of being like Christ, and tells us that God will succeed in accomplishing the work of making us like Christ, provided we do not insist upon interposing a perverse will. We often tend to think in terms of what we have to do, but this puts things in terms of what we have to NOT do, which is an easier way of thinking of things, I think.

The following is from the same chapter:

MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

TE: Different in what way?

MM: My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

TE: I wasn't speaking of staying born again, which you should have noticed by the fact that I wrote, "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." Had I been speaking of staying born again, I would have written something like, "Staying born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." (which is, of course, true, but wasn't my point.)

MM: "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." I still don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that after we are born again that "being born again" involves surrendering our life to Jesus?

In order to experience the miracle of rebirth aren't we supposed to surrender ourselves to Jesus first? And then in order to stay converted and born again aren't we supposed to continue surrendering ourselves to Jesus?

Roxe, on page one of this thread I answered your initial questions. I posted twice. What do you think about what I posted?

MM: "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." I still don't understand what you are trying to say.

I can't imagine why you would have difficulty understanding this. It's a simple sentence. If I said, "I believe being born again involves faith" would you have trouble understanding that?

Are you saying that after we are born again that "being born again" involves surrendering our life to Jesus?

No, I'm saying what what I said. That doesn't mean that after we are born again we don't need to surrender, any more than it would imply that we don't need faith after we are born again.

In order to experience the miracle of rebirth aren't we supposed to surrender ourselves to Jesus first? And then in order to stay converted and born again aren't we supposed to continue surrendering ourselves to Jesus?

I'm not understanding your difficulty here. Let's say I had written that being born again involves having faith. Would you have trouble understanding that? Would you be asking the same questions?

Okay. If I’m reading you right, the following two sentences convey the same basic idea concerning someone who is “born again” in the eyes of God:

1. "Being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ."

2. "Being born again involves having faith."

Did I get it right, Tom?

…………………………..



I’m sorry, Tom, but I am still struggling to understand your description of what it means to be “born again” in the eyes of God. Please don’t be angry with me. Please be patient with me. Please don’t be shocked and amazed that I am struggling to understand your plainly worded description. Thank you.

Here is a breakdown of your description, as I see it:

“I believe that being born again involves …

1) the surrendering of one's life to Christ,
2) accepting Him as personal Savior,
3) under the influence of the Holy Spirit,
4) who reveals the love of God shining from the cross,
5) moving one to repents of one's sins and give one's self to Christ.

This process brings …

4) the repentant sinner into harmony with God,
5) and necessarily into harmony with His law,
6) which is a transcript of His character.

A converted person …

7) may fall into sin
8) (although he need not),
9) but he will not, as long as he is converted, rebelliously pursue sin.”

Questions:

1. Is the “process” you described in 1 thru 5 in the correct order?
2. Does this “process” reflect what a person does after they are born again?

Nope, you completely missed the point. Please re-read what I asked you carefully. Perhaps answering the questions I asked might help.

Regarding the process, I wasn't writing things out like a doctoral dissertation. The explanation given in "Nicodemus" from "The Desire of Ages" is just fine.

The explanation from the Signs of the Times article, "God manifest in Christ," may be better yet. There she explains that it is only by the revelation of God's character that man can be set right and kept right with God, that this was the entire purpose of Christ's ministry. Being converted involves seeing that truths that were the whole purpose of Christ's ministry.

Here's the Nicodemus quote:

MM, I notice in looking at this thread, that so far our discussions have involved your not understanding what I meant by "I believe that being born again involves our surrendering our life to Christ." I was interested in your thoughts as well. I wrote:



Did I state your idea correctly?

MM: Did I get it right, Tom?

TE: Nope, you completely missed the point.

MM: Bummer.



TE: Did I state your idea correctly?

MM: Well, as you know, based on other threads, I have modified my statement to reflect exceptions to the rule. I am curious how you would summarize my position with this in mind.

MM: Did I get it right, Tom?

TE: Nope, you completely missed the point.

MM: Bummer.

Your mistake was that you took my example of faith as though I were saying that faith was equivalent to surrendering one's life to Christ, when that wasn't my point at all. I was explaining to you what the phrase "being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ" means by using a similar phrase (similar in construction; the choice of "faith" was arbitrary; I could have used "snapping one's fingers"). My question to you was if you understood the sentence construction "being born again involves faith". My presumption was that if you could understand the latter phrase struction, you should be able to understand the former.

Quote:
MM's idea (please correct me if I misstate this), is that before a person can be converted, the Holy Spirit must reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and all these sins must be confessed. No one who drinks (any drinking at all), for example, is converted.


TE: Did I state your idea correctly?

MM: Well, as you know, based on other threads, I have modified my statement to reflect exceptions to the rule. I am curious how you would summarize my position with this in mind.

Your original statement was that no one could be born again unless every sinful habit cultivated from birth was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit and confessed. Your revised statement recognizes that this isn't true. It now reads instead (in my words), "Most people cannot be born again unless every sinful habit they have cultivated from birth is revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed. However, there are some exceptions." This is how I would summarize your new position.

It is not a "new" position, Tom. It is what I have always believed. I have not changed my mind. Do you agree with the statement you posted above?

I can't read your mind, MM. The only way I can know what you believe is by what your write. If you write that in order for someone to be born again, God must reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and these must be confessed, then naturally I will think that is what you believe.

Now you are telling me that's NOT what you believe. You belive something else. Ok, I have to accept that. I also accept that you haven't changed your mind in terms of what you believe. However, you HAVE changed you're mind in terms of what you are actually saying.

"All" and "most" do not mean the same thing. "All" means "without exception." When you start giving exceptions, then you are admitting that "all" was incorrect, which was my point.

All along I was trying to get you to see that your statement was false, which you have admitted by recognizing that there are exceptions. Amazingly, you somehow simultaneously are asserting that you didn't make a mistake, and also think that you gladly admit mistakes when you make them.

Which?

It occurs to me, upon seeing the title of this topic, which is a question, that you (MM) have not answered this question (that I can remember). What do you think it means to be born again?

TE: Which?



That is, do you also believe as I do?

TE: What do you think it means to be born again?

MM: To be like Jesus. To grow in grace, to increase in knowledge, and to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

And, like Jesus, it does not involve discovering that we have been ignorantly cultivating a particular sinful habit because the Holy Spirit was waiting for a better time to reveal it to us.

AH 206
"Born again" means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. {AH 206.1}

I'm often presented the idea that being born again means to be converted. EGW in the quote provided calls it a "tranformation," which is the same idea. So it appears to me that we agree on what it means to be born again? It means to be converted, to be transformed, right?

TE: So it appears to me that we agree on what it means to be born again? It means to be converted, to be transformed, right?

MM: Yes, we agree on what it means to be born again. However, I suspect we disagree as to what happens after we are born again.



Am I right, Tom, in assuming we do not agree on this point? If so, then please consider the other quotes I posted last time as confirmation of what I believe about it. Thank you.

Well, MM, it appears that you do not agree with your own idea, because you have already made exceptions for smoking, drinking, and polygamy. I'm sure there are many other exceptions as well. So these cases are not like Jesus. Being born again does not make us just like Jesus, if that's your thought. You're correct that I disagree with this.

Another area that we disagree regarding, which I view as more fundamental, is in what we emphasize. You emphasize the keeping of rules, one's behavior, overcoming sinful habits and the like. I view that it's more important to emphasize other things, such as our view about God. Since as a man thinks in his heart, so is he, it follows that our thinking must be correct in order for us to act correctly. Similarly, correct behavior will follow from correct thought. So it is important that we think correctly.

I understand that Jesus taught this same truth in teaching that the kingdom of God is within us. Also He taught that what defiles depends on what's inside. We have the example of the pharisees, who He described as white-washed tombs.

Man's original problem was a deeper one than wrong behavior. He believed a lie about God, and it was that lie which led him into sin. The whole purpose of the earthly ministry of Christ was the revelation of God, to put the lie to the enemy, to reveal the truth about God, so that man could be set right and kept with with God. Our emphasis should be where Christ's was; the revelation of God.

A fellow peacher once remarked to me that he did not think his children were in need of the same kind of conversion as people of the world? Will the answer to that question illuminate your verdict on what it means to be born again?

Sounds like dressing up a pig.

Pastors kids are, no doubt, closer to experiencing the miracle of rebirth than people who have never heard of Jesus. Both need to complete the long, patient, protracted process, though.

Closer? "The heart is desperately wicked, above all things. Who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9) Are pastor's kid's hearts less desperately wicked then, say, a carpenter's kid?

That must be why the Lord called fishermen to follow him; but one "pastor's kid" came along, I think his name was Judas.

I think Pastor's kids are greatly disadvantaged.

TE: Are pastor's kid's hearts less desperately wicked then, say, a carpenter's kid?

MM: Possibly. Not everybody is wired the same from birth. It is easier for some than it is for others. Growing up in a well organized, Christ-centered family has its advantages whether it is a parsonage or an orphanage.

2T 74, 75
Jesus, our Advocate, is acquainted with all the circumstances with which we are surrounded and deals with us according to the light we have had and the circumstances in which we are placed. Some have a much better organization than others. While some are continually harassed, afflicted, and in trouble because of their unhappy traits of character, having to war with internal foes and the corruption of their nature, others have not half so much to battle against. They pass along almost free from the difficulties which their brethren and sisters who are not so favorably organized are laboring under. In very many cases they do not labor half so hard to overcome and live the life of a Christian as do some of those unfortunate ones I have mentioned. {2T 74.1}

It seems to me if you look at Scripture that it was the sinners who were attracted to Jesus, while the religious ones were looking for ways to kill Him.

In my experience, PKs are known for worldliness, not godliness.

Perhaps they are more susceptible to the more offfensive sins:

Understanding God's truth is nice, but standing under God's truth is what counts. PKs might have more information, but it is not always accompanied by transformation.

That's definitely true. But the correlation between Christ-centered families and pastors' families does not seem to be very strong.

Arnold, I am a pastor, so I can relate to what you're saying. It is sad, very sad. But praise the Lord for those PKs and MKs who serve the church in wonderful ways! Thank you, Jesus.

Yes, there are also PKs and MKs who turn out fine, better than fine. In many ways, they had greater obstacles to overcome than us regular folks.

I'm sensitive to this topic because of my experience working in a boarding school for teenage boys suffering from ADD/ADHD. Many of the students were sons of prominent Adventists (pastors, conference officials, elders, etc.). In one staff meeting, our director wondered out loud why that is so. I pointed out that perhaps these parents are so busy taking care of their flocks in church that they neglect their flocks at home.

You're a pastor. I assume you have many friends who are also pastors. How often does a pastor have "pew time" with his family on Sabbath? From what I've seen, it is very seldom, especially for the good pastors who are in great demand. So worship and "being with Dad" become separate things.

My own family is in danger of this because my wife and I are the very active types. If we didn't have kids, we'd have 4-5 church offices each. But since we do, we must consciously put forth efforts to focus on our first missionary field.

Pastors have just as much opportunity to spend time with their wife and children as other parents do. It's a matter of choice and scheduling. The most successful pastors and missionaries seem to be the ones who homeschool their children. They seem to have more time to spend with family. I am glad you and your wife make the children a priority.

Interesting! Don't recall reading or hearing about Judas parentage! Got a text for ""pastor's kid" came along, I think his name was Judas?"

The family must be the first priority over service to others. One wonders how Samuel's sons came to have much the fate as Eli's sons.

I agree that scheduling and prioritizing are key. And homeschooling helps a lot, I'm sure.

But I don't agree that they have just as much opportunity as the rest of us. Pew time is very precious and important to me. I have to consciously make sure that it doesn't get bumped off. But I'm just an elder, not a pastor. I don't think pastors have the same leverage I do. Just like I can't hang out with my family at work, neither can they (generally).

If I ever become a pastor of any kind, I think I will limit my preaching schedule to every other week. That way, I don't kill myself and my family taking care of the flock.

I think being a good pastor takes special grace from God. Because to do it right is humanly impossible. One who answers the call better make sure that it is God calling them.

Both Eli and Samuel were men of God, yet they failed in their duty as fathers. "In the character of Samuel we see reflected the likeness of Christ." Yet, " He had been to some extent too indulgent with his sons, and the result was apparent in their character and life." This is a bit frightening to consider that, while men work in the service of God, something in the up bringing of their children is perhaps being neglected.

We are ever to be in the service of God. But to properly serve, we must follow God's order: Upper Room, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, world.

Though God wants us to serve Him in church, He first calls us to serve Him at home.

Quoted: "so long as they are “walking” in the Spirit and mind of the “new man”, they do not and “cannot” commit a known sin."

Anger, pride, hate, are these all "known sin" or "unknown sin?"

If they are "known sin", then how easily a converted people can sin. If they are "unknown sin", why do I feel, I knew these sins?

In His love

James S

James, born again believers who are walking in the Spirit, who are abiding in Jesus, who are partaking of the divine nature do not and cannot commit a known sin - not while they are doing these things. It is when they neglect to do these things that they commit known sins like the ones you listed. Here is how God put it in the Bible:

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Peter
1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It depends. Let's look at an example. When you rebuke a wicked man who is walking in his wicked ways, are you committing a known or unknown sin?



I wouldn't say that converted people commit known sin. MM posted texts that show the impossibility of such an event. Rather, it is more likely that we have an inaccurate concept of what constitutes conversion. IOW, those who are considered converted far outnumbers those who are truly converted.

That's a heavy statement that doesn't help in a person's assurance of salvation.

How then can a person really know whether or not they are truly converted, that they are truly saved, that they are truly born again?

You are very right. I'm glad you caught the weight of that statement.

But I disagree that it does not help a person's assurance of salvation. Certainly, many people who think they are assured of salvation might have cause for concern. But if the concerns are founded on fact, they will have the opportunity to turn and live, rather than being comfortable in unwarranted bliss based on wishful thinking. It is better to be surprised to find oneself in Heaven, than to be surprised to find oneself in Hell.





Let's go to inspiration to find a good description of the reborn, converted, saved. Contrast it with James' version of the "converted" person who has "anger, pride, hate." You will see the vast difference.



I conclude that what often passes as conversion in our day has little or no resemblance to the real thing.

Will my saying that cause some to lose their assurance of salvation? If they have been told they are saved, while they do not reflect the inspired description of the saved, then I hope they lose their false assurance quickly.

It is better to be saved than to feel saved. Rather than helping one preserve his false assurance of salvation, I much prefer helping him gain the experience of salvation.