God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

He leaves nothing to fate, or evil men and angels, or natural law.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. (GC 36)

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy.

Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

His "strange act" is the execution of justice and judgment, which happens when sinners pass the limits of mercy and divine forbearance. God executes justice and judgment in several different ways, and through it all He is in control of the depth and degree of punishment. He leaves nothing to fate, or evil men and angels, or natural law. He alone is in control.

Tom, all of the above are involved. But God determines how and when and to what degree and duration. The quotes you posted above reflect one of the ways God executes justice and judgment. But they do not reflect all of the ways.

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law.

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

MM, the following manuscript seems to reflect your view, a view which Ellen rejected:

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. (GC 36)

A couple of points regarding the GC 614 quote:

1.The GC 36 quote points out that what happens in the future will be like what happened in the destruction of Jerusalem. Viz. "In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."

2.You left out the context! Again!


1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

Tom, the following manuscript seems to reflect your view, a view which Ellen rejected:

As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." I agree with Ellen.

You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?

Also, Ellen wrote - "A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning." Is she saying a holy angel caused the first-born to die?

Then, she wrote - "When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished." Is Ellen saying a holy angel caused the terrible destruction?

Next, she wrote - "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." Is Ellen saying holy angels exercise destructive power when God commands?

Finally, she wrote - "There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." Is Ellen saying evil angels will cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.(GC 37)

Personally, I believe Jesus said it best through the SOP:


His "strange act" is the execution of justice and judgment, which happens when sinners pass the limits of mercy and divine forbearance. God executes justice and judgment in several different ways, and through it all He is in control of the depth and degree of punishment. He leaves nothing to fate, or evil men and angels, or natural law. He alone is in control.

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3}

You say you do, but it doesn't appear to me that your posts reflect this idea. Instead what I have often seen is the idea that God uses Satan, the Romans, and others, as pretty much puppets to do His bidding.

I'm seen you make many statements that God visits punishments upon the wicked by direct decrees, but can't think of even once when you've said that it is Satan who does this, as a way to conceal his own work.

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." I agree with Ellen.


You say you do, but it doesn't appear to me that your posts reflect this idea. Instead what I have often seen is the idea that God uses Satan, the Romans, and others, as pretty much puppets to do His bidding.

I'm seen you make many statements that God visits punishments upon the wicked by direct decrees, but can't think of even once when you've said that it is Satan who does this, as a way to conceal his own work.

MM:Again, I believe God uses several different methods to execute justice and judgment. One of them is permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction within the limits He establishes and enforces.

M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?

T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:

1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.

M: Also, Ellen wrote - "A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning." Is she saying a holy angel caused the first-born to die?

T: She says the same principles were at work in the Egyptian plagues that will be at work in the final plagues. The four points I quoted brings out what those principles are.

M: Then, she wrote - "When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished." Is Ellen saying a holy angel caused the terrible destruction?

T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph.

M: Next, she wrote - "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." Is Ellen saying holy angels exercise destructive power when God commands?

T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph.

M: Finally, she wrote - "There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." Is Ellen saying evil angels will cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph. She made comparisons, as clear as possible, that the destruction in the future would be *like* the destruction of Jerusalem. She enunciated the same principles, and she said it was like Jerusalem, and when she wrote of Jerusalem, she explained that that was like what the future would be.

Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed.

Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed). For example:


Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?

In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible.

So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.

Tom, the following manuscript seems to reflect your view, a view which Ellen rejected:

As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?

T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:

1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.

Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you agree with my assessment of your view?

How do evil angels exercise the "same destructive power" as holy angels?

T:Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?

M:So, yes, you believe evil angel will personally cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues when holy angels permit it.

Which means, then, you believe holy angels are praising God (see passage below) for the death and destruction evil angels are causing.

Do you think the evil angels are willing to work within the limits established and enforced by God?

Isn't it rather counterproductive?

What is the cause and effect relationship between receiving and enforcing the mark of the beast and the events portrayed by the plagues?

That is, how do their sins trigger them? For example, do you think worshiping on Sunday causes grievous sores, sea creatures to die, fresh water to become blood, the sun to scorch people with fire, and large hailstones to fall from the sky?

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

How do you envision wicked men and angels preventing God from causing them to have life?

Will they build a barrier around themselves which God cannot penetrate?

T:In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible.

So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.

M:God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established.

Tom, you wrote - "Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed."

With this in mind, please respond to the following post. I've highlighted in red areas I think reflect your view.

M: Tom, you wrote - "Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed." With this in mind, please respond to the following post. I've highlighted in red areas I think reflect your view.

T: No, the areas in red to not reflect my view. What I've written reflects my view. You may quote the things I've written as expressions of my view.

T: In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible. So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.

M: God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established.

T: Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God.

M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?

T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:

1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.

M: Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you agree with my assessment of your view?

T: If your assessment is that I don't believe that holy angels have personally caused death or destruction, or that they will, yes, I agree with that. I also believe that when inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits, and that this is true as a general principle. Iow, GC 36 is not describing how God sometimes works, but how God works; God always looks like Jesus Christ.

EGW: The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.

M: How do evil angels exercise the "same destructive power" as holy angels? Do they withdraw their protection and permit some other evil entity to cause death and destruction?

T: Death and destruction come from Satan. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. God, and the holy angels, exercise this destructive power by permitting Satan to destroy and devastate.

M: Finally, she wrote - "There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." Is Ellen saying evil angels will cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph. She made comparisons, as clear as possible, that the destruction in the future would be *like* the destruction of Jerusalem. She enunciated the same principles, and she said it was like Jerusalem, and when she wrote of Jerusalem, she explained that that was like what the future would be.

Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed.

Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed). For example: “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764) Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?
M: So, yes, you believe evil angel will personally cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues when holy angels permit it. . . [truncated by Tom] . . .

T: This seems non-responsive. I'll try again: Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?

M: How do you envision wicked men and angels preventing God from causing them to have life? Will they build a barrier around themselves which God cannot penetrate?

T: What? Huh? I think the passage from GC 614 explains what happens.

M: . . . [truncated by Tom] . . . Which means, then, you believe holy angels are praising God (see passage below [deleted by Tom]) for the death and destruction evil angels are causing.

T: Revelation is a symbolic book. I think that Rev. 16 is expresses the desire on the part of God's followers for justice.

M: Do you think the evil angels are willing to work within the limits established and enforced by God?

T: As opposed to what?

M: Isn't it rather counterproductive?

T: Sure, fighting against God is counterproductive. But they're evil; that's what they do.

T: Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed).

M: What is the cause and effect relationship between receiving and enforcing the mark of the beast and the events portrayed by the plagues? That is, how do their sins trigger them? For example, do you think worshiping on Sunday causes grievous sores, sea creatures to die, fresh water to become blood, the sun to scorch people with fire, and large hailstones to fall from the sky?

T: Re-quoting the passage from GC 614: “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. “ This says, "Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble." I believe this covers what your questioning.

Maybe this fits here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaVyGsno-OE&feature=related

Enjoy.

Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post):

"They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible. So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.

M: God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established.

T: Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God.

M:Do you see a difference between God causing death and destruction and God permitting evil angels to do it within the limits He establishes and enforces? Also, do you agree God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He established?

Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God.

M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?

T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:

1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.

M: Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you agree with my assessment of your view?

T: If your assessment is that I don't believe that holy angels have personally caused death or destruction, or that they will, yes, I agree with that. I also believe that when inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits, and that this is true as a general principle. Iow, GC 36 is not describing how God sometimes works, but how God works; God always looks like Jesus Christ.

M:Thank you for answering my question. Revelation 15 and 16, therefore, where it says holy angels pour out the plagues, do you take it to mean holy angels permit evil angels to do it?

1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

EGW: The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.

M: How do evil angels exercise the "same destructive power" as holy angels? Do they withdraw their protection and permit some other evil entity to cause death and destruction?

T: Death and destruction come from Satan. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. God, and the holy angels, exercise this destructive power by permitting Satan to destroy and devastate.

M:I’m not sure how your response answers my question. How do holy and evil angels exercise the “same destructive power”? Are you saying they exercise the “same destructive power” in the sense holy angels permit evil angels to cause death and destruction?

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

M: Finally, she wrote - "There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." Is Ellen saying evil angels will cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph. She made comparisons, as clear as possible, that the destruction in the future would be *like* the destruction of Jerusalem. She enunciated the same principles, and she said it was like Jerusalem, and when she wrote of Jerusalem, she explained that that was like what the future would be.

Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed.

Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed). For example: “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764) Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?
M: So, yes, you believe evil angel will personally cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues when holy angels permit it. . . [truncated by Tom] . . .

T: This seems non-responsive. I'll try again: Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?

M:I addressed your points in reverse order. Here’s how I addressed this point:

M: How do you envision wicked men and angels preventing God from causing them to have life? Will they build a barrier around themselves which God cannot penetrate?

T: What? Huh? I think the passage from GC 614 explains what happens.

M:I included your response. Please explain how you envision evil men and angels separating themselves from the fountain of life. Since it is God causing them to live, what will they do to prevent God from causing to them live?

M: . . . [truncated by Tom] . . . Which means, then, you believe holy angels are praising God (see passage below [deleted by Tom]) for the death and destruction evil angels are causing.

T: Revelation is a symbolic book. I think that Rev. 16 is expresses the desire on the part of God's followers for justice.

M:Do you believe evil angels do evil things that count as God’s justice?

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

M: Do you think the evil angels are willing to work within the limits established and enforced by God?

T: As opposed to what?

M:As opposed to doing something entirely different than what God is willing to permit them to do.

Are they at liberty to do more or less than what God is willing to allow?

M: Isn't it rather counterproductive?

T: Sure, fighting against God is counterproductive. But they're evil; that's what they do.

M:Are evil angels fighting against God when they cause the death and destruction God commanded?

See comments above regarding the following insight – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”


T: Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed).

M: What is the cause and effect relationship between receiving and enforcing the mark of the beast and the events portrayed by the plagues? That is, how do their sins trigger them? For example, do you think worshiping on Sunday causes grievous sores, sea creatures to die, fresh water to become blood, the sun to scorch people with fire, and large hailstones to fall from the sky?

T: Re-quoting the passage from GC 614: “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. “ This says, "Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble." I believe this covers what your questioning.

M:Do you believe legislating and enforcing Sundays laws will trigger the natural disasters portrayed by the seven last plagues?

If so, please explain how. If not, do you believe it will force God to reluctantly allow evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues? If so, how is this not “arbitrarily imposed” consequences (to use your words)?

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: His "strange act" is the execution of justice and judgment, which happens when sinners pass the limits of mercy and divine forbearance. God executes justice and judgment in several different ways, and through it all He is in control of the depth and degree of punishment. He leaves nothing to fate, or evil men and angels, or natural law. He alone is in control.

K: If we look at the next paragraph:
Would it be incorrect to say that when His strange act happens is "When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary"? Also, would when be sometime when those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people?

For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Isaiah 28:21. {FLB 338.1}

With unerring accuracy the Infinite One still keeps an account with all nations. While His mercy is tendered, with calls to repentance, this account will remain open; but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed. Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf. {FLB 338.2}
The prophet, looking down the ages, had this time presented before his vision. The nations of this age have been the recipients of unprecedented mercies. . . . But increased pride, covetousness, idolatry, contempt of God, and base ingratitude are written against them. They are fast closing up their account with God. . . . {FLB 338.3}
The crisis is fast approaching. The rapidly swelling figures show that the time for God's visitation has about come. {FLB 338.4}
To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. . . . Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {FLB 338.5}
After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance. {FLB 338.6}

God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. . . . The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble. {FLB 339.3}

M: Do you see a difference between God causing death and destruction and God permitting evil angels to do it within the limits He establishes and enforces? Also, do you agree God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He established?

T: Of course, regarding these two questions . . .

. . . but I'm not dealing with this. What I'm dealing with is your idea that God is responsible for the death and destruction itself.

He calls them to repentance, and assures them of his willingness to forgive. But if they continue to reject his mercy, the mandate goes forth devoting them to destruction. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 7}

Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. {RH, January 1, 1889 par. 1}

God has delivered all judgment into the hands of his Son; and as a righteous judge, Christ must pass sentence on every work whether it be good or bad. Justice is as much an expression of love as mercy. {RH, January 30, 1900 par. 5}

God could not sanction sin, nor protect iniquity. Justice and love are the ruling attributes of his character. While he will punish the transgressors of hi s law, that others may fear, he has ever tempered judgment with mercy. {ST, March 3, 1881 par. 16}

T:Again: "Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God." Do you disagree that it's your view that God is responsible for the destruction which occurred in the destruction of Jerusalem? If you disagree, I'll explain why I've made the assertion that it is your view that God is responsible for the destruction. If you don't disagree, then I won't need to explain anything.

M: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Are evil angels fighting against God when they cause the death and destruction God commanded?

T: Ah, you're asking if the destruction that comes upon the wicked happens because God withdraws His protection, if this counts as justice. Well, was the destruction of Jerusalem an example of God's justice? . . . So if what happened to Jerusalem is an example of God's justice, and this justice occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protection, I see no reason why the same thing couldn't happen for the later destruction that occurs. . . I don't think anything can happen that God does not permit. However, the fact that God permits something doesn't mean He is pleased that the thing occurred. . . God is not the author of death and destruction! That's Satan! Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. So since death and destruction is something of which Satan is the author, thinking of Satan's work as of God seems wrong to me. . . Anytime God permits Satan to have sway, or disasters to occur, regardless of the cause, He does to reluctantly. Of course. God is love. He is not willing that any should perish.

. . . God's strange work happens at "His intercession in the sanctuary". This is before His second coming, before the 1000 years, before His third coming. His strange Act is NOT burning, torturing, and killing men, women, and children at their second death. . . So now we know when God's strange act is, when there is a law against the Sabbath, when His intercession ceases. It looks obvious to me what His strange act is, the justice and judgment of the wicked which is withdrawing protection from them and no longer shielding nor sheltering them. Is this obvious to others or are there objections?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

T:. . . but I'm not dealing with this. What I'm dealing with is your idea that God is responsible for the death and destruction itself.

M:We agree God is responsible for establishing and enforcing the limits within which evil angels work.

When evil men and nations exceed the limits of God's mercy, justice requires judgment. God is not at liberty to do nothing. To do nothing is to encourage rebelliousness.

God will not, cannot, ignore iniquity.

Comes a time when justice demands destruction.

If God were to do nothing, the law would condemn Him as an accomplice.

So, what does God do? Sometimes, but not always, He withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction within the limits He establishes and enforces.

T:Again: "Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God." Do you disagree that it's your view that God is responsible for the destruction which occurred in the destruction of Jerusalem? If you disagree, I'll explain why I've made the assertion that it is your view that God is responsible for the destruction. If you don't disagree, then I won't need to explain anything.

God was responsible in the sense He chose not to protect the rebellious Jews from being defeated in battle. He did not permit it until after they passed the limits of His mercy. He also worked to ensure their punishment did not exceed the limits He established.

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M:Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

I hope you don’t mind me consolidating your comments. It sounds like you’re saying when evil men or nations pass the limits of mercy, God reluctantly withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause the death and destruction commanded by God.

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 36)

In the final analysis, though, Satan is blamed for the death and destruction commanded by God.

Do any of these acts strike you as strange?

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

T: Please be reasonable. I have explained in great detail what I believe, point by point. I've quoted GC 36, and 37. I presume you agree with the passages. I presume you disagree with the red highlighted views. So do I.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.(GC 36)

M: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Are evil angels fighting against God when they cause the death and destruction God commanded?

T: Ah, you're asking if the destruction that comes upon the wicked happens because God withdraws His protection, if this counts as justice. Well, was the destruction of Jerusalem an example of God's justice? . . . So if what happened to Jerusalem is an example of God's justice, and this justice occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protection, I see no reason why the same thing couldn't happen for the later destruction that occurs. . . I don't think anything can happen that God does not permit. However, the fact that God permits something doesn't mean He is pleased that the thing occurred. . . God is not the author of death and destruction! That's Satan! Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. So since death and destruction is something of which Satan is the author, thinking of Satan's work as of God seems wrong to me. . . Anytime God permits Satan to have sway, or disasters to occur, regardless of the cause, He does to reluctantly. Of course. God is love. He is not willing that any should perish.

M: I hope you don’t mind me consolidating your comments. It sounds like you’re saying when evil men or nations pass the limits of mercy, God reluctantly withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider the following: Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 36) Please notice what the "great deceiver" is seeking to do, and also the mistake that's often made.

M: In the final analysis, though, Satan is blamed for the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider GC 36.

K: . . . God's strange work happens at "His intercession in the sanctuary". This is before His second coming, before the 1000 years, before His third coming. His strange Act is NOT burning, torturing, and killing men, women, and children at their second death. . . So now we know when God's strange act is, when there is a law against the Sabbath, when His intercession ceases. It looks obvious to me what His strange act is, the justice and judgment of the wicked which is withdrawing protection from them and no longer shielding nor sheltering them. Is this obvious to others or are there objections?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

M: Do any of these acts strike you as strange?

K: Should one think certain things are strange or should one consider when she defines as His "strange act"?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

I think, MM, both your questions to me and to kland are viewing sin/Satan as basically innocuous and benign. So the idea is that God must take some sort of arbitrary action in order to cause something bad to happen to sinners.

M:We are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” You said this must be interpreted to mean holy angels cause death and destruction, when God commands, by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it. You also said the death and destruction evil angels cause represents the justice of God.


M: In the final analysis, though, Satan is blamed for the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider GC 36.

M:God commands holy angels to exercise destructive power, which you say happens when evil angels do it.

T:I think, MM, both your questions to me and to kland are viewing sin/Satan as basically innocuous and benign. So the idea is that God must take some sort of arbitrary action in order to cause something bad to happen to sinners.

M:Let's take the first born in Egypt as an example.

Do you believe sin killed all those innocent babies?

If so, how did sin do it? If not, do you believe evil angels killed them? If so, how was it not arbitrary?

M: You seem to be suggesting the final judgment will not involve “his strange act” "the act of punishment". How do you see the following description fitting in with your conclusion:

K: MM, should we go with what we think is a strange act or how it's been defined as? If we aren't going to use Ellen White's definition, could one think other things are definitions of strange acts?

M: We are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” You said this must be interpreted to mean holy angels cause death and destruction, when God commands, by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it. You also said the death and destruction evil angels cause represents the justice of God. God commands holy angels to exercise destructive power, which you say happens when evil angels do it.

T: What does GC 36 say?

M: We are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” You said this must be interpreted to mean holy angels cause death and destruction, when God commands, by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it. You also said the death and destruction evil angels cause represents the justice of God. God commands holy angels to exercise destructive power, which you say happens when evil angels do it.

T: What does GC 36 say?

M:Again, we are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” (GC 614) She clearly says "God commands". Citing GC 36 implies you believe holy angels exercising "destructive power . . . when God commands" must be interpreted to mean God commands holy angels to withdraw their protection and to ensure evil angels do not exceed the justice and punishment He permits and commands.

I assume you read the passages I posted and took note of how she applied the phrases "strange act" and "act of punishment". If so, I'm sure you couldn't help noticing she didn't limit it to the seven last plagues.

M: We are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” You said this must be interpreted to mean holy angels cause death and destruction, when God commands, by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it. You also said the death and destruction evil angels cause represents the justice of God. God commands holy angels to exercise destructive power, which you say happens when evil angels do it.

T: What does GC 36 say?

M: Again, we are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” (GC 614) She clearly says "God commands". Citing GC 36 implies you believe holy angels exercising "destructive power . . . when God commands" must be interpreted to mean God commands holy angels to withdraw their protection and to ensure evil angels do not exceed the justice and punishment He permits and commands.

T: This is how you read GC 36? Can you quote something from GC 36 which expresses this thought please?

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

T: Please be reasonable. I have explained in great detail what I believe, point by point. I've quoted GC 36, and 37. I presume you agree with the passages. I presume you disagree with the red highlighted views. So do I.

M: I assume you read the passages I posted and took note of how she applied the phrases "strange act" and "act of punishment". If so, I'm sure you couldn't help noticing she didn't limit it to the seven last plagues.

K: No I didn't. To both questions. That's because you commonly list a bunch of quotes which are not relevant to what is being discussed and then make no comment to help guide the reader regarding as to how it relates to the discussion. After re-reviewing your quotes, I still find no mention of "strange act" in them excepting for the Signs of the Times paragraph. Did I miss any others? And that one says nothing towards when it is. Since the same statement is made in the quote I gave which does tell when it is, would it not be reasonable to conclude this quote is referring to the same time? Do you have information which says otherwise? Because I want to know before I go and make a fool of myself.

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

But while inflicting judgment, God remembered mercy. The Amalekites were to be destroyed, but the Kenites, who dwelt among them, were spared. This people, though not wholly free from idolatry, were worshipers of God and were friendly to Israel. Of this tribe was the brother-in-law of Moses, Hobab, who had accompanied the Israelites in their travels through the wilderness, and by his knowledge of the country had rendered them valuable assistance. {PP 628.2}

Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. {RH, January 1, 1889 par. 1}

The Angel of Mercy was then folding her wings to step down from the golden throne and give place to Justice and swift-coming judgment. {2SP 394.1}

But mercy and truth are promised only to the contrite and obedient. God has said that justice and judgment are the habitation of his throne; and those who are disobedient and rebellious will not escape the visitation of his just anger. {ST, March 6, 1884 par. 2}

But let no one flatter himself that he may transgress the commandments, and yet receive the favor of God. In the government of God, justice and grace stand side by side. The law cannot be transgressed with impunity. Justice and judgment are the habitation of his throne. {ST, October 10, 1892 par. 2}

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

T: Please be reasonable. I have explained in great detail what I believe, point by point. I've quoted GC 36, and 37. I presume you agree with the passages. I presume you disagree with the red highlighted views. So do I.

M:I get the distinct impression you believe God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. Have I misunderstood your view?

The fact you don't read my posts is one of the reasons why I usually don't enjoy studying with you.

This principle (mercy ends, justice begins) is not limited to the seven last plagues.

I get the distinct impression you believe God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. Have I misunderstood your view?

M: Again, we are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” (GC 614) She clearly says "God commands". Citing GC 36 implies you believe holy angels exercising "destructive power . . . when God commands" must be interpreted to mean God commands holy angels to withdraw their protection and to ensure evil angels do not exceed the justice and punishment He permits and commands.

T: This is how you read GC 36? Can you quote something from GC 36 which expresses this thought please?

M:No. I was guessing it's how you read it. Did i get it wrong? Do you believe GC 614 means something else?

M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

T: Please be reasonable. I have explained in great detail what I believe, point by point. I've quoted GC 36, and 37. I presume you agree with the passages. I presume you disagree with the red highlighted views. So do I.

M: I get the distinct impression you believe God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. Have I misunderstood your view?

T: I answered this. Apparently, yes, somehow you've misunderstood my view, although we've been discussing this for years. When Jesus Christ was urged to destroy His enemies by fire, how did He respond?

M: Again, we are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” (GC 614) She clearly says "God commands". Citing GC 36 implies you believe holy angels exercising "destructive power . . . when God commands" must be interpreted to mean God commands holy angels to withdraw their protection and to ensure evil angels do not exceed the justice and punishment He permits and commands.

T: This is how you read GC 36? Can you quote something from GC 36 which expresses this thought please?

M: No. I was guessing it's how you read it. Did i get it wrong? Do you believe GC 614 means something else?

T: How do you read GC 36? Let's start with that. I've said that GC 614 is articulating the same principle as GC 36, so how do you read GC 36?

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3}

But you have yet to show anywhere that it applies to the seven last plagues. Per chance are you making the implication, though without support, that "justice" is His strange act?

""To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." In this passage, Ellen clearly applies the principle (see quotes below) named in Isaiah 28:21 to the Amalekites. This principle (mercy ends, justice begins) is not limited to the seven last plagues." In this passage, Ellen clearly applies the principle (see quotes below) named in Isaiah 28:21 to the Amalekites. This principle (mercy ends, justice begins) is not limited to the seven last plagues.

To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act.

Jesus said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." Please note He did not say, "It is evil and unlawful to call on God to consume impenitent sinners with fire."

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)

Elijah did so twice. See 2 Kings 1. Instead, Jesus specifically rebuked their spirit. When meting out punishment on God's behalf, one must have a godly spirit, not a spirit mixed with ungodliness.

However, you seem to be saying, No, I don't agree with the idea that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

M: Jesus said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." Please note He did not say, "It is evil and unlawful to call on God to consume impenitent sinners with fire."

T: He said it was the spirit of Satan to do so. Isn't that sufficient? Does He have to add to this that it is "evil and unlawful"? Doesn't being of the spirit of Satan cover this? "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." (DA 487)

M: Elijah did so twice. See 2 Kings 1. Instead, Jesus specifically rebuked their spirit. When meting out punishment on God's behalf, one must have a godly spirit, not a spirit mixed with ungodliness.

T: The whole concept that one would mete out punishment on God's behalf is wrong. This is a really dangerous idea. It smacks of the Inquisition. Those people were motivated by saving the souls of those they were torturing. That sounds like a "godly spirit." It sounds like you're saying that the act (of torture, or whatever) is not evil of itself, but only if it is performed with a wrong spirit. I hear Jesus saying that the whole idea of wanting to do the act is the problem. Jesus explained that He came not do destroy but do save. It was that they wanted to destroy that Jesus Christ identified as the problem, not that they wanted to do so with the wrong spirit. He didn't say, "You want do destroy them. That's OK. But you have the wrong spirit." Rather He explained that they were misunderstanding what He and the kingdom of God was all about. They were misunderstanding God's character and the character of His government, and this is the same issue I perceive we are talking about.

M: However, you seem to be saying, No, I don't agree with the idea that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

T: What principle or principles do you see in GC 36?

Tom, you correctly understood the point I was making in response to Kland's post. However, as you know, I believe God has executed justice, punishment in several different ways, one of which is the way you believe is the only way. At one point, somewhere on this forum, I listed them. Just can't remember where. Don't know if I can name them all, but here goes:

1. God permits the firelight of His radiant person and presence to cause death and destruction.

2. God permits natural law to cause death and destruction.

3. God employs the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.

4. God permits cause and effect to run its natural course.

5. God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction.

6. God permits evil angels to cause death and destruction.

7. God permits evil men to cause death and destruction.

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3. White Estate Washington, D. C. January 6, 1983 {12MR 208.3}

Tom, how do you explain the following insight:

Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

M:If you assume God metes out penalty and punishment by merely withdrawing His protection and permitting nature or evil men and angels to cause death and destruction, how, then, do you explain God doing so?

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

Why doesn't He allow their sins to punish and kill them?

Instead, fire comes down from heaven and consumes, or God commands His chosen people to hack them to pieces. How is it not arbitrary?

Evil angels will influence people who receive the mark of the beast and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute those who receive the seal of God. Holy angels, on the other hand, will obey the command of God and cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues. Evil angels will work through evil men to persecute godly men, whereas, holy angels will work through the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

"To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." Again, please note - the act of punishment = His strange act.

His point is that EGW was articulating a principle:



This principle means that *any time* God punishes someone, that is a "strange act" to Him. I also understood from what MM wrote that he understands punishment to be when God stops being merciful and starts inflicting justice.

Tom, you correctly understood the point I was making in response to Kland's post.

M: Jesus said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." Please note He did not say, "It is evil and unlawful to call on God to consume impenitent sinners with fire."

T: He said it was the spirit of Satan to do so. Isn't that sufficient? Does He have to add to this that it is "evil and unlawful"? Doesn't being of the spirit of Satan cover this? "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." (DA 487)

M: Elijah did so twice. See 2 Kings 1. Instead, Jesus specifically rebuked their spirit. When meting out punishment on God's behalf, one must have a godly spirit, not a spirit mixed with ungodliness.

T: The whole concept that one would mete out punishment on God's behalf is wrong. This is a really dangerous idea. It smacks of the Inquisition. Those people were motivated by saving the souls of those they were torturing. That sounds like a "godly spirit." It sounds like you're saying that the act (of torture, or whatever) is not evil of itself, but only if it is performed with a wrong spirit. I hear Jesus saying that the whole idea of wanting to do the act is the problem. Jesus explained that He came not do destroy but do save. It was that they wanted to destroy that Jesus Christ identified as the problem, not that they wanted to do so with the wrong spirit. He didn't say, "You want do destroy them. That's OK. But you have the wrong spirit." Rather He explained that they were misunderstanding what He and the kingdom of God was all about. They were misunderstanding God's character and the character of His government, and this is the same issue I perceive we are talking about.

M: However, you seem to be saying, No, I don't agree with the idea that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

T: What principle or principles do you see in GC 36?

M: Why doesn't He allow their sins to punish and kill them? Instead, fire comes down from heaven and consumes them, or God commands His chosen people to hack them to pieces. How is it not arbitrary?

T: If God caused the actions, I could see you're saying these were arbitrary, along the lines of DA 764. But if God simply permits a course of action chosen by someone with free will to have the effect which consequently results (which is what GC 36 and 37 depict), why would this imply that God had acted arbitrarily?

So would you be saying that even though those quotes only talk of before and at the seven plagues, and even though she says God's strange act is ceasing intercession right before the plagues start, you are saying that even if it's not clearly stated, there's a general principle involved that punishment or acts we may consider out of His character before, during, and any time after the plagues are to be considered God's strange act(s)?

Evil angels will influence people who receive the mark of the beast and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute those who receive the seal of God. Holy angels, on the other hand, will obey the command of God and cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues. Evil angels will work through evil men to persecute godly men, whereas, holy angels will work through the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.

M: However, you seem to be saying, No, I don't agree with the idea that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

M: Why doesn't He allow their sins to punish and kill them? Instead, fire comes down from heaven and consumes them, or God commands His chosen people to hack them to pieces. How is it not arbitrary?

T: If God caused the actions, I could see you're saying these were arbitrary, along the lines of DA 764. But if God simply permits a course of action chosen by someone with free will to have the effect which consequently results (which is what GC 36 and 37 depict), why would this imply that God had acted arbitrarily?

M:I hear you saying God withdraws His protection and permits sinners to experience the consequences of sinning, that is, the consequences that would have happened had God not acted to prevent it. In reality you are also saying the consequences of sinning include evil angels causing the punishment God establishes and enforces, that is, God decides to what depth and degree of punishment evil angels can mete out and then God also works to ensure they do not exceed those limits.

M: God commanded King Saul to utterly kill and destroy everyone and everything pertaining to the Amalekites. He disobeyed and incurred the wrath of God. Then Samuel, in accordance with the commandment of God "hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal." See 1 Samuel 15. This is one of many stories portraying God commanding His chosen people to kill His enemies.

T: Regarding your comment about King Saul, please remember the Father/hunter analogy. This is a different issue.

T: Regarding GC 36, from the post you referred me to, you wrote:


I really don't see even a hint of this in GC 36.

To get back to your question:


What I'm saying is that I agree with the principles outlined in GC 36 and 37. I don't think these principles contradict the points she was making in the passage you were asking me about.

M: Why doesn't He allow their sins to punish and kill them? Instead, fire comes down from heaven and consumes them, or God commands His chosen people to hack them to pieces. How is it not arbitrary?

T: If God caused the actions, I could see you're saying these were arbitrary, along the lines of DA 764. But if God simply permits a course of action chosen by someone with free will to have the effect which consequently results (which is what GC 36 and 37 depict), why would this imply that God had acted arbitrarily?

M: I hear you saying God withdraws His protection and permits sinners to experience the consequences of sinning, that is, the consequences that would have happened had God not acted to prevent it. In reality you are also saying the consequences of sinning include evil angels causing the punishment God establishes and enforces, that is, God decides to what depth and degree of punishment evil angels can mete out and then God also works to ensure they do not exceed those limits.

T: I like the way the principles are laid out in GC 36, 37. An issue I see with the way you word things is that you appear to believe that God is responsible for the death and destruction that occurs. This is actually what I've been taking issue with you all along.

For example, you have written something along the lines that God uses a "withdraw and permit" strategy as a means of causing death and destruction, but that He uses other methods as well. So you conceive death and destruction as originating from God, and Satan is like a puppet, as are the other tools which God uses to cause the destruction/death that He wants to have happen.

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I don't perceive death and destruction as proceeding from God at all, but rather from sin/Satan. God has to put limitations on the destruction and death that sin/Satan causes, or all humans would be destroyed, and there couldn't be a Great Controversy (at least, not involving humans).

Anytime God punishes sinners it is a "strange act".

--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

M: God commanded King Saul to utterly kill and destroy everyone and everything pertaining to the Amalekites. He disobeyed and incurred the wrath of God. Then Samuel, in accordance with the commandment of God "hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal." See 1 Samuel 15. This is one of many stories portraying God commanding His chosen people to kill His enemies.

T: Regarding your comment about King Saul, please remember the Father/hunter analogy. This is a different issue.

M:Are you justifying God commanding Saul and Samuel killing the Amalekites? If so, at least you are admitting God commanded it.

M: However, you seem to be saying, No, I don't agree with the idea that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

T:What I'm saying is that I agree with the principles outlined in GC 36 and 37. I don't think these principles contradict the points she was making in the passage you were asking me about.

M:You are being non-responsive. Please do not I assume I know what you believe. Surely you agree with parts of what I wrote above.

T: I like the way the principles are laid out in GC 36, 37. An issue I see with the way you word things is that you appear to believe that God is responsible for the death and destruction that occurs. This is actually what I've been taking issue with you all along.

For example, you have written something along the lines that God uses a "withdraw and permit" strategy as a means of causing death and destruction, but that He uses other methods as well. So you conceive death and destruction as originating from God, and Satan is like a puppet, as are the other tools which God uses to cause the destruction/death that He wants to have happen.

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I don't perceive death and destruction as proceeding from God at all, but rather from sin/Satan. God has to put limitations on the destruction and death that sin/Satan causes, or all humans would be destroyed, and there couldn't be a Great Controversy (at least, not involving humans).

M:Please point to what I wrote (reposted below) and explain how it disagrees with what you’re saying.

1. I hear you saying God withdraws His protection and permits sinners to experience the consequences of sinning, that is, the consequences that would have happened had God not acted to prevent it.

2. In reality you are also saying the consequences of sinning include evil angels causing the punishment God establishes and enforces, that is, God decides to what depth and degree of punishment evil angels can mete out and then God also works to ensure they do not exceed those limits.

M:Anytime God punishes sinners it is a "strange act".

k:Seems to suggest to me, you think God "punishing" and what it means in your definition, is out of His character.

Tom, I don't think there is a natural correlation between God withdrawing His protection and the calamities that befall sinners. For example, the fire that flashed forth and burned alive Nadab and Abihu. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the 250 people. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the two bands of fifty. I don't know how you explain these events.

Also, if final events leading up to the return of Jesus resemble the fall of Jews and Jerusalem in 70 AD it means evil angels will control the inflamed passions of evil people. However, it begs the question - Who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues? Clearly nothing of the sort happened in 70 AD.

M: Tom, I don't think there is a natural correlation between God withdrawing His protection and the calamities that befall sinners. For example, the fire that flashed forth and burned alive Nadab and Abihu. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the 250 people. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the two bands of fifty. I don't know how you explain these events.

T: The exact explanation of the events isn't the important thing, but understanding the principles involved. We know that Satan is the author of sin and all its results. That includes death and destruction. This means that before Satan invented sin, there was no death and destruction. Therefore death and destruction are part and parcel to Satan's kingdom, not God's. Before Satan, these things did not exist, and were not a part of God's government. Your idea would have God using the principles of Satan's government, causing death and destruction, in order to win the Great Controversy. I don't believe God does this. Instead, I believe God uses the principles of His own government, principles which existed from eternity.

M: Also, if final events leading up to the return of Jesus resemble the fall of Jews and Jerusalem in 70 AD it means evil angels will control the inflamed passions of evil people. However, it begs the question - Who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues? Clearly nothing of the sort happened in 70 AD.

T: According to EGW in GC 614 and GC 36,37, the final plagues *are* like what happened in AD 70. That was her point! She made it in both places, when speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem (where she compared it to the future destruction), and when speaking of the future destruction (where she compared it to the destruction of Jerusalem).

The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3}

In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." Verses 8, 9. The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth; . . . because the harvest of the field is perished. . . . All the trees of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate. . . . How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of water are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3. {GC 628.1}

The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. . . . The bolts of God's wrath are soon to fall, and when He shall begin to punish the transgressors there will be no period of respite until the end.--TM 182 (1894). {LDE 238.2}

Mercy's sweet call is now sounding; but it will soon die away. Probation's hour will soon be ended. The seven last plagues will fall, and then those who have chosen the pleasures of the world and rebelled against God, will cry for mercy when there will be none to answer their prayers. But a voice will be heard,--"Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting." And as they realize that they have no shelter from the dreadful storm of God's wrath, they will plead for one little hour of probation that they may again hear the sweet voice, inviting "every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters." It will then fall upon the ear, in that dreadful hour. "Too late! too late!" "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof. I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." {YI, January 1, 1854 par. 5}

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}

At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. Terror seized me, and I fell upon my face before the angel and begged of him to cause the sight to be removed, to hide it from me, for it was too dreadful. Then I realized, as never before, the importance of searching the Word of God carefully, to know how to escape the plagues which that Word declares shall come on all the ungodly who shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. It was a great wonder for me that any could transgress the law of God and tread down His holy Sabbath, when such awful threatenings and denunciations were against them. {EW 64.2}

My attention was again directed to the earth. The wicked had been destroyed, and their dead bodies were lying upon its surface. The wrath of God in the seven last plagues had been visited upon the inhabitants of the earth, causing them to gnaw their tongues from pain and to curse God. The false shepherds had been the signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet. After the saints had been delivered by the voice of God, the wicked multitude turned their rage upon one another. The earth seemed to be deluged with blood, and dead bodies were from one end of it to the other. {EW 289.3}

Your idea would have God using the principles of Satan's government, causing death and destruction, in order to win the Great Controversy. I don't believe God does this. Instead, I believe God uses the principles of His own government, principles which existed from eternity.

Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

I don't think MM thinks that God's punishing is out of character, but that it appears to be out of character.

M: Tom, I don't think there is a natural correlation between God withdrawing His protection and the calamities that befall sinners. For example, the fire that flashed forth and burned alive Nadab and Abihu. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the 250 people. And the fire that flashed forth and burned alive the two bands of fifty. I don't know how you explain these events.

T: The exact explanation of the events isn't the important thing, but understanding the principles involved. We know that Satan is the author of sin and all its results. That includes death and destruction. This means that before Satan invented sin, there was no death and destruction. Therefore death and destruction are part and parcel to Satan's kingdom, not God's. Before Satan, these things did not exist, and were not a part of God's government. Your idea would have God using the principles of Satan's government, causing death and destruction, in order to win the Great Controversy. I don't believe God does this. Instead, I believe God uses the principles of His own government, principles which existed from eternity.

M: Principles are derived from studying the facts. Not the other way around. You seem to be hinting Satan caused the fires mentioned above. Is that correct?

T: Here are the facts I laid out:

1.Satan is the author of sin and all its results.
2.That includes death and destruction.
3.This means that before Satan invented sin, there was no death and destruction.
4.Therefore death and destruction are part and parcel to Satan's kingdom, not God's.
5.Before Satan, these things did not exist, and were not a part of God's government.

These are all facts you agree with, right? Because of these facts, and the principles we may derive from these facts, I made the following observation:


So without getting into the specifics of the fire question, I'm stating that God does not use the principles of Satan's government, but of His own.

For example, violence is not of God, and this is not a principle that God uses to accomplish His will. Compelling force is another example. Death and destruction are others. All the things which did not exist before Satan invented sin are things which are not a part of God's government, and are principles which God does not use to govern His government. That's the general principle I'm stating.

If you say that God does do these things, that He maims, and/or tortures, and/or kills, that begs the question as to why God would do these things. Why wouldn't He use the principles of His own government to accomplish His will? Or do you believe that these things, of which Satan is the author (being the author of sin and all its results), are principles of God's government?

The sentence right before the one you quoted says:


"Final trouble" makes clear this is referencing the last plagues. ("final trouble" = "last plagues").

I think MM believes there are things which appear to be out of God's character, such as punishing people (by which I think MM has in mind things like setting them on fire), and this is His "strange act." I think he accepts these things as things that God did (because that's how what He understands inspiration to mean) and that God was right to do them (because God can't be wrong), but these things do appear to be out of character for God, even though they really aren't.

The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration.

Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

T:The sentence right before the one you quoted says:

EGW:Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.

T:"Final trouble" makes clear this is referencing the last plagues. ("final trouble" = "last plagues").

M:I disagree. "Final trouble" includes evil angels influencing evil men and working through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs.

That's the context of the passage, namely, "human passion".

Elsewhere Ellen goes on to compare the plagues of Egypt and the seven last plagues. Are you saying such plagues occurred in 70 AD?

Also, God says, "I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." What do you make of this insight?

Kland, I agree with Tom's clarification of my belief in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". It doesn't matter if He withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to cause death and destruction, or if He commands holy angels, holy men, or evil men and nations to cause death and destruction, or if He acts unilaterally to cause death and destruction - the end result is the same, namely, sinners are punished. In some cases they are burned alive. A question that hasn't been answered yet is - How is it not arbitrary? What is not arbitrary about them being burned alive? There is no natural cause and effect relationship between the sins they committed and being punished by being burned alive. Never mind who did it, that is, who burned them alive.

M: Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

T: This should read: "Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

M: That's the context of the passage, namely, "human passion".

T: "Human passion" isn't the context of the passage. The passage is talking about what happens when Christ stops interceding in the Most Holy Place. The Seven Last Plagues happen.

M: Elsewhere Ellen goes on to compare the plagues of Egypt and the seven last plagues. Are you saying such plagues occurred in 70 AD?

T: What? What kind of question is this?

M: Also, God says, "I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." What do you make of this insight?

T: I think it's a warning from God. It's not literal. God won't literally laugh and mock the lost. I hope this isn't what you think.

M: Kland, I agree with Tom's clarification of my belief in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". It doesn't matter if He withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to cause death and destruction, or if He commands holy angels, holy men, or evil men and nations to cause death and destruction, or if He acts unilaterally to cause death and destruction - the end result is the same, namely, sinners are punished. In some cases they are burned alive. A question that hasn't been answered yet is - How is it not arbitrary? What is not arbitrary about them being burned alive? There is no natural cause and effect relationship between the sins they committed and being punished by being burned alive. Never mind who did it, that is, who burned them alive.

K: I had asked, why do you find this as being a "Strange Act". Could you help me understand how this answers that question?

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

M: Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

T: This should read: "Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".

M:Are you saying you don't agree with me? "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." Of course, I realize you interpret this to mean anytime circumstances force God to withdraw His protection and permit sinners to reap what they have sown it is a "strange act". In other words, the "strange act", the "act of punishment" is God ceasing preventing sinners from reaping what they have sown.

Ellen specifically says "human passion". But she doesn't specifically say "seven last plagues".

During the great, final, time of trouble Jesus will permit evil angels to influence evil men and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. At the same time, Jesus will command holy angels to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.

Ellen also specifically says the seven last plagues resemble the plagues of Egypt. Nowhere, however, does she say something similar to the plagues of Egypt happened in 70 AD. But you seem convinced the death of Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is very similar to what will happen when human probation closes.

I also believe there are similarities. Just as evil angels worked through the inflamed evil passions of Jew and Gentile, so too, evil angels will work through the inflamed evil passions of evil men and persecute SDAs.

Holy angels will praise God as evil men, women, and children suffer and die as a result of the outpouring of the seven last plagues. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." But I hear you saying it is evil angels who will execute the righteous judgments of God. If so, then in reality the holy angels will express thanks and praise for what the evil angels will do.

Also, it sounds like you believe God saying He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children as they suffer and die during the outpouring of the plagues cannot be taken literally.

And you also seem to shudder at the thought of anyone taking God at His word as if God doesn't mean what He says.

Tom, in the past you said God works to supernaturally prevent sinners from immediately reaping what they sow. Do you still believe this is true?

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

By "full result of their sin" do you mean the results suffered here and now or do you mean the results they will suffer at the end of time?

For example, all those sinners I named above who were burned alive, do you believe they reaped what they had sown? If not, why were they burned alive? Or, will they reap what they have sown when the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them", when "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? If so, how did God prevent it from happening the moment they sinned? Did He purposely work to prevent them from knowing Him?

Also, who and what will the holy angels praise and thank when evil men, women, and children suffer and die during the outpouring the seven last plagues? And, will the plagues count as sinners reaping what they have sown? Or, will it only count as preliminary punishment? If so, what purpose will it serve? Also, how will it not be arbitrary, that is, not a direct, natural consequence of sinning (like smoking results in cancer)?

If God didn't mean for us to understand He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children when they are suffering and dying during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, why, then, did He say so?

Was He being factious? Also, is there anything else God has said that we cannot take literally?

What about the promise Jesus will return and resurrect the righteous and take them along with the 144,000 to heaven?

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.(Jer. 18)

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6)

What more was there to do for my vineyard
that I have not done in it?
When I expected it to yield grapes,
why did it yield wild grapes?

(Isa. 5)

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.(Rev. 20:1)

K: I had asked, why do you find this as being a "Strange Act". Could you help me understand how this answers that question?
M: "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

The law of God is made void. We see and hear of confusion and perplexity, want and famine, earthquakes and floods; terrible outrages will be committed by men; passion, not reason, bears sway. The wrath of God is upon the inhabitants of the world, who are fast becoming as corrupt as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. Already fire and flood are destroying thousands of lives and the property that has been selfishly accumulated by the oppression of the poor. The Lord is soon to cut short His work and put an end to sin. Oh, that the scenes which have come before me of the iniquities practiced in these last days, might make a deep impression on the minds of God's professing people. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction, increasing crime, and cruel, evil working against the rich who have exalted themselves against the poor. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position. Human agents are being trained and are using their inventive power to put in operation the most powerful machinery to wound and to kill. {8T 49.3}

During the great, final, time of trouble Jesus will permit evil angels to influence evil men and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. At the same time, Jesus will command holy angels to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.

I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.
...
I saw four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and were on their way to accomplish it. Jesus was clothed with priestly garments. He gazed in pity on the remnant, then raised His hands, and with a voice of deep pity cried, "My blood, Father, My blood, My blood, My blood!" Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from God, who sat upon the great white throne, and was shed all about Jesus. Then I saw an angel with a commission from Jesus, swiftly flying to the four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and waving something up and down in his hand, and crying with a loud voice, "Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads."
I asked my accompanying angel the meaning of what I heard, and what the four angels were about to do. He said to me that it was God that restrained the powers, and that He gave His angels charge over things on the earth; that the four angels had power from God to hold the four winds, and that they were about to let them go; but while their hands were loosening, and the four winds were about to blow, the merciful eye of Jesus gazed on the remnant that were not sealed, and He raised His hands to the Father and pleaded with Him that He had spilled His blood for them. Then another angel was commissioned to fly swiftly to the four angels and bid them hold, until the servants of God were sealed with the seal of the living God in their foreheads.

In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}

At this time I prized the Christian's hope. The scene before me brought vividly to my mind the day of the Lord's fierce anger, when the storm of His wrath will come upon the poor sinner. Then there will be bitter cries and tears, confession of sin, and pleading for mercy, when it will be too late. "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {1T 81.1}

My brother, my sister, if these precious moments of mercy are not improved, you will be left without excuse. If you make no special effort to arouse, if you will not manifest zeal in repenting, these golden moments will soon pass, and you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. Then your agonizing cries will be of no avail. Then will apply the words of the Lord: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. {1T 263.1}

Mercy's sweet call is now sounding; but it will soon die away. Probation's hour will soon be ended. The seven last plagues will fall, and then those who have chosen the pleasures of the world and rebelled against God, will cry for mercy when there will be none to answer their prayers. But a voice will be heard,--"Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting." And as they realize that they have no shelter from the dreadful storm of God's wrath, they will plead for one little hour of probation that they may again hear the sweet voice, inviting "every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters." It will then fall upon the ear, in that dreadful hour. "Too late! too late!" "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof. I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." {YI, January 1, 1854 par. 5}

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

Protestantism shall give the hand of fellowship to the Roman power. Then there will be a law against the Sabbath of God's creation, and then it is that God will do His "strange work" in the earth.--7BC 910 (1886). {LDE 130.1}

Men are prone to abuse the long-suffering of God, and to presume on His forbearance. But there is a point in human iniquity when it is time for God to interfere; and terrible are the issues. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked" (Nahum 1:3). The long-suffering of God is wonderful, because He
puts constraint on His own attributes; but punishment is nonetheless certain. Every century of profligacy has treasured up wrath against the day of wrath; and when the time comes, and the iniquity is full, then God will do His strange work. It will be found a terrible thing to have worn out the divine patience; for the wrath of God will fall so signally and strongly that it is presented as being unmixed with mercy; and the very earth will be desolated. It is at the time of the national apostasy, when, acting on the policy of Satan, the rulers of the land will rank themselves on the side of the man of sin--it is then the measure of guilt is full; the national apostasy is the signal for national ruin. {2SM 372.3}

Does she mean that is only one of many times of His strange act, an example of His strange act, and it is a general principle or does she mean the strange act? Or is Work and Act different?

(W)hen men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.(GC 36)

Tom, I still don't understand how your responses in 128442 address my comments and questions. Please elaborate. Thank you.

Tom, symbols and hyperbole are different. I don't think God used hyperbole.

There is no reason to think Ellen felt these words of God should be taken any other way than literally.

My brother, my sister, if these precious moments of mercy are not improved, you will be left without excuse. If you make no special effort to arouse, if you will not manifest zeal in repenting, these golden moments will soon pass, and you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting.

"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof; I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you: then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me; for that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; they would none of my counsel; they despised all my reproof. Therefore they shall eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." {ST, August 18, 1881 par. 11}

God speaks to us today, in the warnings, counsels, and reproofs given to ancient Israel. If we depart from him, our condemnation will be greater than theirs; for we have their experience as a warning, and all the instruction which God has given since their time. Many and varied are the idols which we cherish; idols that engross the mind and harden the heart, so that sacred things are not rightly valued. Oh that the lessons given to ancient Israel might so impress our hearts and affect our lives that we would fully turn from idols, to serve the living God. {ST, August 18, 1881 par. 12}

We must not trifle with our present privileges and opportunities, and expect that when lost they will be restored whenever we desire. It is impossible to abuse the powers with which our Creator has endowed us, and yet find them clear and vigorous, to call to our aid whenever we wish to devote them to a nobler, better purpose. The chains of habit, like ropes of steel, are not easily broken. Then how careful should we be to cherish only those traits which we would have to form the texture of character. {ST, August 18, 1881 par. 13;emphasis mine}

M: Tom, in the past you said God works to supernaturally prevent sinners from immediately reaping what they sow. Do you still believe this is true?

T: This was in regards to DA 764: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.” I understand this to be saying that God supernaturally prevents the wicked from being destroyed by not leaving them to reap the full result of their sin.

M: By "full result of their sin" do you mean the results suffered here and now or do you mean the results they will suffer at the end of time?

T: You mean, what did Ellen White mean? (whom I quoted) The context seems clear to be speaking of the destruction of the wicked after the second resurrection, doesn't it?

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

M: For example, all those sinners I named above who were burned alive, do you believe they reaped what they had sown? If not, why were they burned alive? Or, will they reap what they have sown when the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them", when "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? If so, how did God prevent it from happening the moment they sinned? Did He purposely work to prevent them from knowing Him?

T: We've discussed this. What did I say before?

M: Also, who and what will the holy angels praise and thank when evil men, women, and children suffer and die during the outpouring the seven last plagues? And, will the plagues count as sinners reaping what they have sown? Or, will it only count as preliminary punishment? If so, what purpose will it serve? Also, how will it not be arbitrary, that is, not a direct, natural consequence of sinning (like smoking results in cancer)?

T: Look at GC 36 please. Regarding what attitude the angels will have, consider how Christ felt when Jerusalem was being destroyed. The principles are all there, in the destruction of Jerusalem.

M: If God didn't mean for us to understand He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children when they are suffering and dying during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, why, then, did He say so?

T: Why did Jesus treat the woman who asked to be healed the way that He did? (i.e., the woman, not Jewish, who asked to be healed, and Christ treated her coldly, saying, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

M: Was He being factious? Also, is there anything else God has said that we cannot take literally?

T: Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? Often God communicates to us in a way that we might learn something. Something to take in mind is that God must meet us in the paradigm that we have. If we think selfishly, then God must communicate to us according to that paradigm. There are many examples of this in Scripture. For example, there was the servant in the story who buried his talent because he viewed God to be severe. Christ answered him according to the paradigm that He had (as opposed to correcting him, that God, in reality, is not severe). You appear to me to view God as extremely severe.

M: What about the promise Jesus will return and resurrect the righteous and take them along with the 144,000 to heaven?

T: You don't see the difference here?

MM, if you think God mocks, that this is in harmony with His character, IMO you are seriously misunderstanding Him. Where do you see that Christ ever mocked anyone?

(Discussing DA 764)So, yes, she is speaking about sinners reaping what they have sown after the second resurrection. By the way, what is the full result of sinning? What would happen if God allowed sinners to reap what they have sown the instant they sin? Would “His very presence” be “to them a consuming fire”? Would “the glory of Him who is love” “destroy them”? Does the full result of sin vary in duration and intensity depending on how many times a person sins?

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

M: For example, all those sinners I named above who were burned alive, do you believe they reaped what they had sown? If not, why were they burned alive? Or, will they reap what they have sown when the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them", when "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? If so, how did God prevent it from happening the moment they sinned? Did He purposely work to prevent them from knowing Him?

T: We've discussed this. What did I say before?

M:I don’t know what you believe about each of the questions asked above. Regarding burning sinners alive you believe evil angels were allowed to kill them. But did it count as reaping what they sowed? If not, what purpose did it serve? How and why will the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them"? And, how and why is "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? In what sense is it a consuming fire?

T: Look at GC 36 please. Regarding what attitude the angels will have, consider how Christ felt when Jerusalem was being destroyed. The principles are all there, in the destruction of Jerusalem.

M:I don’t understand how your response answers the questions. Here they are again:

1. Who and what will the holy angels praise and thank when evil men, women, and children suffer and die during the outpouring the seven last plagues?

2. Will the plagues count as sinners reaping what they have sown?

3. If not, what purpose will it serve?

In fact, what purpose does any of the suffering we experience in this lifetime serve if it doesn’t count as the real result of sinning?

4. Also, how will the plagues not be arbitrary? That is, since they are not a direct, natural consequence of sinning (like smoking results in cancer) they are obviously arbitrarily imposed.

M: If God didn't mean for us to understand He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children when they are suffering and dying during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, why, then, did He say so?

T: Why did Jesus treat the woman who asked to be healed the way that He did? (i.e., the woman, not Jewish, who asked to be healed, and Christ treated her coldly, saying, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

M:He created a situation that allowed her to testify to her faith in Jesus. How do you apply this principle to Jesus saying, “I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh.”

You are dead wrong about how I view God.

I don’t think God pretends to be something He isn’t in order to reach people steeped in darkness, which, by the way, is nothing more than a lie.

I especially don’t believe God commands His chosen people to “utterly kill” everyone when in reality it is totally out of character for him to do so.

As an evangelist in training I learned - “What you win people with is what you win them to.” Also, all your fancy attempts at paraphrasing what God said reminds me of politicians backpedaling after they’ve inadvertently expressed a belief they didn’t want people to know they believe.

M: What about the promise Jesus will return and resurrect the righteous and take them along with the 144,000 to heaven?

T: You don't see the difference here?

M:Yes, I do. However, what about all those Christians who dismiss the majority of the Bible because it doesn’t fit their view of God? They deny the miracles, they deny the resurrection, and they deny Jesus’ promise to return and take us home.

Which means they refuse to take God at His word. But instead of paraphrasing what God meant, they simply throw it out as uninspired. At least they are consistent. You, on the other hand, attempt to dissect the Bible and divide it into passages we can take at face value and passages we cannot take at face value.

The problem is – Who decides which passages belong is which category?

How and why do the righteous traits and attributes of God's character cause sinners to suffer and die?

And, how does God prevent them from causing sinners to suffer and die the instant they sin?

Where do you see that the glory of Christ ever destroyed anyone? "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Or, where do you see that His very presence was to anyone a consuming fire? "His very presence is to them a consuming fire."

Tom, after studying with you I changed my mind about the words "sin" and "pardon" as used by the SOP in the context of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. I can thank you for that. However, it sounds like you are unaware I changed my mind.

Jesus is the God of the OT. The things Jesus did in the OT demonstrate the character of the Father.

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being (Heb. 1:1-3a; NRSV)

It was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Here are just a few of the many places Jesus caused or commanded punishment without pity, without sparing, without mercy. Are we supposed to assume Jesus did not mean it, that He was merely speaking in terms sinners could comprehend, that actually He wanted them to "utterly kill" while sparing and exhibiting pity?

13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Lucifer was not guilty of sinning until he was convinced to pursue his course further would constitute sin and then chose to pursue it. God was willing to pardon and reinstate him until he chose to pursue his course further.

In this case, pardon and repentance did not involve sin, but was granted on condition of him repenting (making a u-turn) of the course he had pursued thus far.

Yes, it was Jesus who demonstrated the love of God in the OT. And, yes, it was Jesus who demonstrated the love of God in the NT. "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." {DA 799.2} God is not afraid to execute justice. True, He lingers long in mercy, but comes a time when justice demands punishment. It was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked?

Tom, I did not say Lucifer sinned before He chose to pursue his course in open rebellion.

Therefore, there was no need for him to repent of sinning to be pardoned and reinstated.

His repentance would have involved him changing his course, making a u-turn.

Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

Tom, what do you think constitutes "the act of punishment"? And, is it the full result of sinning, that is, is it reaping what they have sown? For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

PS - I am referring to the following passage: "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

PPS - Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.(GC 35)

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

M: Tom, I did not say Lucifer sinned before He chose to pursue his course in open rebellion.

T: Lucifer sinned before God offered him pardon. Then God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to be restored, if he confessed his sin. Satan refused the offer of pardon, and chose to continue on, knowing that he was wrong, and at this point there was nothing more that God could do for him, because he had hardened his own heart and fixed (i.e. settled) his character, so that it could not change, just as in the EGW quote I cited a little while ago speaking of the importance of forming right habits. As long as Lucifer's character was such that he was not settled in rebellion, and was able to change, God was ready and able and willing to pardon him (why wouldn't He be? That's how God is, merciful and compassionate).

M: Therefore, there was no need for him to repent of sinning to be pardoned and reinstated.

T: God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to confess his sin. So clearly there was a need for him to repent, to be pardoned, and reinstated.

M: His repentance would have involved him changing his course, making a u-turn.

T: Repentance involves u-turn. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of u-turn (repentance), which is only logical, as how could Lucifer be reconciled if he continued in rebellion?

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

Why, then, didn’t Jesus offer to pardon A&E, whose sin was far less offensive than Lucifer’s?

By the way, I disagree with your interpretation of the SOP insights regarding Lucifer. Ellen wrote “no provision had been made to save those [angels] who should venture to transgress his law.” {1SP 22.3} Why? Because they knew God too well to deliberately sin and recover from it. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” There is nothing more God can do to recommend His love. They are unpardonable.

M: Therefore, there was no need for him to repent of sinning to be pardoned and reinstated.

T: God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to confess his sin. So clearly there was a need for him to repent, to be pardoned, and reinstated.

M:I disagree. See quotes and comments above.

M: His repentance would have involved him changing his course, making a u-turn.

T: Repentance involves u-turn. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of u-turn (repentance), which is only logical, as how could Lucifer be reconciled if he continued in rebellion?

M:He hadn’t rebelled yet. He wasn’t guilty of rebelling until he made the decision to pursue his course after being convinced to do so would constitute sin and rebellion.

Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence.

God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.(GC 495)

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M:Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

M: Why, then, didn’t Jesus offer to pardon A&E, whose sin was far less offensive than Lucifer’s?

T: He did.

M: By the way, I disagree with your interpretation of the SOP insights regarding Lucifer. Ellen wrote “no provision had been made to save those [angels] who should venture to transgress his law.” {1SP 22.3} Why? Because they knew God too well to deliberately sin and recover from it. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” There is nothing more God can do to recommend His love. They are unpardonable.

T: What are you disagreeing with? It doesn't appear to me that you responded to what I wrote. If you did, I'm not following your train of thought.

M: Therefore, there was no need for him to repent of sinning to be pardoned and reinstated.

T: God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to confess his sin. So clearly there was a need for him to repent, to be pardoned, and reinstated.

M: I disagree. See quotes and comments above.

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form: 1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance. 2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven. 3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned. What are you disagreeing with?

M: His repentance would have involved him changing his course, making a u-turn.

T: Repentance involves u-turn. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of u-turn (repentance), which is only logical, as how could Lucifer be reconciled if he continued in rebellion?

M: He hadn’t rebelled yet. He wasn’t guilty of rebelling until he made the decision to pursue his course after being convinced to do so would constitute sin and rebellion.

T: Ok, call it something else. He was doing something which was sin, for which he needed to repent and confess, and needed to stop and turn around. For example:


See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

I think the answers to your questions can be found in considering what happened in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The "act of punishment" is described here:



as well as here:



In regards to this question:



What do you see happening in the fall of Jerusalem? Do you see one of the things you are asking about happening? If so, which?

M: Why, then, didn’t Jesus offer to pardon A&E, whose sin was far less offensive than Lucifer’s?

T: He did.

M:Oops. I should have anticipated you not realizing I meant God offering to pardon A&E without requiring Jesus’ substitutionary death.

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely.(George Fifield; God is Love)

T: What are you disagreeing with? It doesn't appear to me that you responded to what I wrote. If you did, I'm not following your train of thought.

M:You wrote, “Lucifer sinned before God offered him pardon. Then God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to be restored, if he confessed his sin.” I disagree for the reasons expressed above.

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form:

1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance.
2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven.
3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned.

What are you disagreeing with?

M:I disagree God offered him pardon after he sinned.

T:See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M:Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet.

Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint.

Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God’s injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

T:See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M:Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet. The pardon God made conditional on repentance didn’t involve sin; instead, it involved pursuing a new course, one that did not involve doing the things named in the passage you quoted above.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

M:"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Do you agree with me that these are the very words Jesus spoke?

MM:Tom, after studying with you I changed my mind about the words "sin" and "pardon" as used by the SOP in the context of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. I can thank you for that. However, it sounds like you are unaware I changed my mind.

T:Yes, I wasn't aware of this. To the best of my knowledge, you never said this before, nor have you altered your previous opinion in any way. That is, you argued that Lucifer had not sinned when God offered him pardon, and that when God offered Lucifer pardon, it wasn't for sin. I have been thinking this is still what you think, and you didn't change your mind, despite statements that God offered to pardon Lucifer, and gave him the opportunity to confess his sin.

Back to your perception of God. What do you perceive this to mean?:

"13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

For example, here it says that God will fill all the inhabitants of the land with drunkenness. What do you think this means?

I don't understand why you think GC 36-37 answers the following questions (please flesh it out for me, thank you):

Tom, what do you think constitutes "the act of punishment"?

And, is it the full result of sinning, that is, is it reaping what they have sown?

For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

PS - I am referring to the following passage: "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

PPS - Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet. The pardon God made conditional on repentance didn’t involve sin; instead, it involved pursuing a new course, one that did not involve doing the things named in the passage you quoted above.

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

M: Why, then, didn’t Jesus offer to pardon A&E, whose sin was far less offensive than Lucifer’s?

T: He did.

M: Oops. I should have anticipated you not realizing I meant God offering to pardon A&E without requiring Jesus’ substitutionary death.

T: Well, you know the answer to this. This has been the argument I've been making for years, to argue against your idea. If, as you postulate, the death of Christ were necessary to enable *God* to pardon, then it would have been needed for God to have been able to pardon Lucifer. As you correctly point out, Satan's deeds were much worse than A&E's. So however necessary it was for God to pardon A&E (assuming it was necessary for God), it would have been much more so for Lucifer's case. But it wasn't. Why not? As I've quoted many, many times to you: “The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (George Fifield; God is Love)

T: What are you disagreeing with? It doesn't appear to me that you responded to what I wrote. If you did, I'm not following your train of thought.

M: You wrote, “Lucifer sinned before God offered him pardon. Then God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to be restored, if he confessed his sin.” I disagree for the reasons expressed above.

T: You think God offered Lucifer pardon *before* he sinned? And offered him the opportunity to confess his sin *before* he sinned? How would this make sense?

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form:

1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance.
2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven.
3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned.

What are you disagreeing with?

M: I disagree God offered him pardon after he sinned.

T: This doesn't appear to me to be either 1, 2, or 3. Do you agree with 1, 2, and 3?

T: See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M: Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet.

T: Of course he sinned. The things cited in the paragraph of are sins. For example: “Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint.” This is not only sin, but premeditated and purposeful sin. Note how it says "concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reference for God." This makes clear there was intent behind what Lucifer was doing, and that he knew what he was doing, and knew it was wrong. Additional proof that this is sin is the fact that God offered to pardon him.

Yet additional proof is the following: “Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God’s injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

T: See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M: Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet. The pardon God made conditional on repentance didn’t involve sin; instead, it involved pursuing a new course, one that did not involve doing the things named in the passage you quoted above.

T: If they weren't sin, he wouldn't have needed to stop doing them.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

M: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Do you agree with me that these are the very words Jesus spoke?

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

MM, I'd like to get back to a couple of points. First one: “Tom, after studying with you I changed my mind about the words "sin" and "pardon" as used by the SOP in the context of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. I can thank you for that. However, it sounds like you are unaware I changed my mind.”

Nothing you have been writing in the recent posts indicates you've changes your mind in any way. You're writing the same things you did before you were aware of the aforementioned statements from the SOP. They don't seem to have had the least impact on your thinking in any way, as far as I can tell. Would you please explain how you changed your mind?

Second one: “Back to your perception of God. What do you perceive this to mean?: 13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness. 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

For example, here it says that God will fill all the inhabitants of the land with drunkenness. What do you think this means?

Yes, Jesus also said, "I will fill all the inhabitants of this land . . . with drunkenness." Obviously Jesus isn't going to fill everyone with alcohol and cause them to be drunk. Thus, we are forced to treat it as a symbol. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." Elsewhere, regarding drunkenness, we read:

Ezekiel
23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck [it] out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Are there times when Jesus mixed literal and metaphoric language in the same passage? If so, is it reasonable to take certain parts of a single passage literally while taking other parts of it symbolically?

M: For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

T: Not sure what you're asking here. I believe the principles are explained in what I quoted from GC 35-37 however.

M: Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

T: Once again, I think the principles are clearly explained in GC 36-37. I asked you what you thought was happening there. If you answer that question, I think it will answer the questions you are asking me. At least, this is my perception. GC 35-37 explains how God destroys, in detail. It explains that there is no more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and the certainty of punishment than this (or words to this effect; not quoting the exact words here).

1. What is the full, inevitable result of sin?

2. How does God prevent sinners from experiencing the full, inevitable result of sin the instant they sin?

3. When will sinners experience the full, inevitable result of sin?

4. What is the “act of punishment”?

5. When sinners experience the “act of punishment” in this lifetime is it part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

6. When sinners suffer the cause and effect consequence of sin in this lifetime is it part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

7. When sinners suffer and die during the outpouring of the seven last plagues will it be a part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

8. When sinners revisit their sins during final judgment what will cause them to suffer and die?

9. When fire comes down from heaven what will cause sinners to suffer and die?

10. How will the “presence” of God cause sinners to suffer and die?

Offering pardon and actually granting pardon are two different aspects of pardon.

Also, pardon can be offered and granted in cases not involving sin.

God offered to pardon Lucifer before he sinned, but was unable to offer or grant pardon after he sinned.

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form:

1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance.
2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven.
3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned.

What are you disagreeing with?

M: I disagree God offered him pardon after he sinned.

T: This doesn't appear to me to be either 1, 2, or 3. Do you agree with 1, 2, and 3?

I agree with 1 but not with 2 and 3. Lucifer had not yet sinned, therefore, his repentance would have involved changing his course and he would have been pardoned and reinstated. He would have also confessed that to pursue his course further would constitute a sin.

Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous.

Yet additional proof is the following: “Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God’s injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

I disagree. Lucifer did not sin until he deliberately chose to continue pursuing his course after he was convinced to do so would constitute a sin.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

M: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Do you agree with me that these are the very words Jesus spoke?

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M:Do I have your permission to deduce, yes, you believe Jesus (not the Father) spoke these very words (the equivalent words in Hebrew)?

20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

I changed my mind when I realized “no provision” existed to pardon angels after they “transgressed the law”. They knew God too well to recover after deliberately sinning. Then I realized repentance and pardon does not have to involve sin in order to happen.

Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence. {GC 495.2}

And, then I realized Lucifer was eventually convinced it would constitute a sin to pursue his course further and was given one last opportunity to change his course.

T:For example, here it says that God will fill all the inhabitants of the land with drunkenness. What do you think this means?

M:I addressed this in 128585:

Yes, Jesus also said, "I will fill all the inhabitants of this land . . . with drunkenness." Obviously Jesus isn't going to fill everyone with alcohol and cause them to be drunk. Thus, we are forced to treat it as a symbol. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." Elsewhere, regarding drunkenness, we read:

Ezekiel
23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck [it] out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Are there times when Jesus mixed literal and metaphoric language in the same passage? If so, is it reasonable to take certain parts of a single passage literally while taking other parts of it symbolically?

M: For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

T: Not sure what you're asking here. I believe the principles are explained in what I quoted from GC 35-37 however.

M:I have no idea why you believe this passage addresses my question. Please spell it out in plain detail. Thank you.

M: Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

T: Once again, I think the principles are clearly explained in GC 36-37. I asked you what you thought was happening there. If you answer that question, I think it will answer the questions you are asking me. At least, this is my perception. GC 35-37 explains how God destroys, in detail. It explains that there is no more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and the certainty of punishment than this (or words to this effect; not quoting the exact words here).

M:In the passage you are referring to Ellen describes God withdrawing His protection and permitting the Roman army to kill the Jews and to demolish Jerusalem. I do not understand why you believe this scenario addresses my question. Please spell it out in plain detail. Thank you.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God’s hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God’s long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

In Chinese philosophy, the concept of yin yang is used to describe how polar or seemingly contrary forces are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, and how they give rise to each other in turn. Many natural dualities — e.g. dark and light, female and male, low and high, cold and hot — are thought of as manifestations of yin and yang (respectively). Yin yang are complementary opposites that interact within a greater whole, as part of a dynamic system. There is a perception (especially in the West) that yin and yang correspond to good and evil. However, Taoist philosophy generally discounts good/bad distinctions and other dichotomous moral judgments, in preference to the idea of balance.

Yin and yang are thus are always opposite and equal qualities. It is impossible to talk about yin or yang without some reference to the opposite, since yin and yang are bound together as parts of a mutual whole. As the sun moves across the sky, yin and yang gradually trade places with each other, revealing what was obscured and obscuring what was revealed. Yin and Yang are dependent opposing forces that flow in a natural cycle, always seeking balance. Though they are opposing, they are not in opposition to one another. As part of the Tao, they are merely two aspects of a single reality. They do not merely replace each other but actually become each other through the constant flow of the universe.

Re: paragraph 1.

1.When you say that Jesus is in control, not other things, do you mean to imply by this that the things which happen are His will? (by His will, I mean things He wants to have happen).

2.When you say He "manipulates" the outcome of our choices, that doesn't sound too good. Do you understand why? Is this really the word you wish to use?

3.It sounds like your conception is that God uses Satan like a puppet. Is this correct?

Re. Paragraph 2.

1.I said nothing about Jesus and Satan managing matters in similar ways. I spoke of them acting the same. I don't see any difference between how you perceive Satan and God to act. Both seem unspeakable cruel, severe, and harsh. Although if Satan is God's puppet, it seems like God should be the responsible one for Satan's cruelty. That is, if Satan is simply carrying out God's orders, which appears to be what you're saying.

2.I guess I should clarify if this is what you're saying. Do you perceive that when Satan acts, he is simply carrying out God's orders?

3.It looks like you're writing that Jesus determines a punishment, lets the evil angels do what they want to cause havoc and destruction, and then sends the holy angels to mop up any left over maiming/killing/torture/cruelty/violence that remains to finish up the punishment, since the evil angels can't be trusted. You don't see a problem with this sort of picture of God? You don't see any disconnect between this and the life of Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry? I find this picture incredible.

Re. par. 3.

1.I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you talking about the final judgment? If so, it appears you don't believe that sin causes suffering on its own accord, or, if it does, not enough. I suppose you must believe sin causes some suffering. So I suppose God makes allowances for that, to your way of thinking, and only imposes additional suffering on top of that to get to right quota of suffering that justice demands.

As incredible as it seems, do you think there might be something to the Yin-Yang comment I had made in the past? The concept and terms seem to me to fit in more than one way. From part of Wikipedia:

I think Mikes last statement is clear. I disagree with it and I think the bible disagrees with it. Maybe now when there need remain no question on where Mike stands on this question, the next phase of the discussion can commence? Assuming the discussion is going somewhere beyond figuring out what Mike thinks about this subject.

T:Re: paragraph 1.

1.When you say that Jesus is in control, not other things, do you mean to imply by this that the things which happen are His will? (by His will, I mean things He wants to have happen).

2.When you say He "manipulates" the outcome of our choices, that doesn't sound too good. Do you understand why? Is this really the word you wish to use?

3.It sounds like your conception is that God uses Satan like a puppet. Is this correct?

M:1. He doesn’t want people to make sinful choices. But since they do, it is Jesus’ responsibility to ensure the outcome serves God’s ultimate goal, namely, a great controversy that ends favorably for God.

M:2. The word “manages” can be used in its place. I’m referring to Jesus manipulating inanimate things so that our choices play out in ways that best serve God’s ultimate goal.

However, Jesus also exercises His powers of influence to ensure people do certain things that best serve God’s ultimate goal (Daniel 10:13 is an example).

3. Jesus knows exactly what Satan will do and uses it to serve God’s ultimate goal.

2. I suppose Satan is free not to do what Jesus permits him to do. But it seems unlikely he would reject an opportunity to cause death and destruction.

3. I wrote, “Satan is not at liberty to wield power indiscriminately. He cannot cause death and destruction until he receives permission from Jesus. Nevertheless, Jesus doesn’t leave it up to Satan to decide what to do. It is Jesus who determines what serves as suitable punishment. And then, because Satan cannot be trusted, Jesus also commands holy angels to do whatever it takes to ensure evil angels do not exceed His established limits.” The holy angels are on scene to ensure evil angels do not cause more death and destruction than permitted by Jesus.

T:1.I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you talking about the final judgment? If so, it appears you don't believe that sin causes suffering on its own accord, or, if it does, not enough. I suppose you must believe sin causes some suffering. So I suppose God makes allowances for that, to your way of thinking, and only imposes additional suffering on top of that to get to right quota of suffering that justice demands.

M:1. I wasn’t referring to the final judgment. The emotional and physical suffering sinners experience in this lifetime is not, in fact, the real result of sin.

The fact is if Jesus allowed sinners to experience the full, inevitable result of sin the instant they sin no one would survive the first sin. In fact, the human race would have ended with the death of A&E. During the final judgment, it is the fire light of God’s physical person and presence that will cause sinners to experience the full, inevitable result of sin, namely, emotional and physical suffering that ends in death.

Sorry, but I'm not following your point.

What's the next phase? Can you get it going?

I was referring to if you thought there was an underlying basis or similarities between Yin-Yang and the post you responded to.

I guess I saw Yin-Yang as taking contradictory ideas and saying they are balanced and part of the same. One of the key sentences I saw was:

"Though they are opposing, they are not in opposition to one another."

Perhaps I need to reconsider it. Maybe contradictory and opposition don't equate with opposing? Not sure, but I think I have an idea of what you meant by it being different.

In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.

To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.

(T)he revealer of the character of God.

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

M: In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.

T: No they don't. Considering the first few quotes. “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1} This is a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

T: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1} Same point. God's glory is related to love. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything about "radiant light" destroying them.

T: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} This is dealing with character, which the context makes clear. I'll post this later.

Here's what you quoted: "But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Stopped too soon! Continuing: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ: "(T)he revealer of the character of God." There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

M: In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.

T: No they don't. Considering the first few quotes. “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1} This is a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

M:The “presence of God” is physical. The fact His presence “consumes” sinners with their sins is physical.

T: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1} Same point. God's glory is related to love. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything about "radiant light" destroying them.

M:Again, “His very presence” is physical. The “light of the glory of God” is physical. “Will destroy them” is physical.

T: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} This is dealing with character, which the context makes clear. I'll post this later.

M:“Came before God” is physical. “They were destroyed” is physical. “Shall be consumed” is physical. “Destroyed with the brightness” is physical. “The light of the glory of God” is physical. “Imparts life” is physical. “Will slay” is physical.

M:"His very presence" was physical. "Abide in His presence" was physical.

"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." It sounds like you believe this statement can be taken to literally mean - "The truth about God's character will slay the wicked." If so, will wicked humans and angels comprehend the truth about God's character until it kills them?

Also, what part does the following fire play as it relates to wicked humans and angels and the truth about God's character:

I'll treat these altogether. Consider Christ's cleansing of the temple, when the money-changers all fled. They all fled because of Christ's presence. But the problem was a spiritual one, not a physical one. His physical presence caused problems with their minds (guilt/fear/consciousness of sin, etc.)

Tom, please explain how the presence of agape will destroy, punish the wicked according to their sinfulness. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The "presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you."

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.(DA 764)

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

T:I'll treat these altogether. Consider Christ's cleansing of the temple, when the money-changers all fled. They all fled because of Christ's presence. But the problem was a spiritual one, not a physical one. His physical presence caused problems with their minds (guilt/fear/consciousness of sin, etc.)

M:"His physical presence caused problems with their minds (guilt/fear/consciousness of sin, etc.)" How and why did His physical presence cause them to experience guilt, fear, and consciousness of their sins? How and why will it cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness at the end of time?

Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts. In their flight they met others on their way to the temple, and bade them turn back, telling them what they had seen and heard. Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. In this scene He saw symbolized the dispersion of the whole Jewish nation for their wickedness and impenitence.

And why did the priests flee from the temple? Why did they not stand their ground? He who commanded them to go was a carpenter's son, a poor Galilean, without earthly rank or power. Why did they not resist Him? Why did they leave the gain so ill acquired, and flee at the command of One whose outward appearance was so humble?

Christ spoke with the authority of a king, and in His appearance, and in the tones of His voice, there was that which they had no power to resist. At the word of command they realized, as they had never realized before, their true position as hypocrites and robbers. When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ's countenance; they realized the import of His words. They felt as if before the throne of the eternal Judge, with their sentence passed on them for time and for eternity. For a time they were convinced that Christ was a prophet; and many believed Him to be the Messiah. The Holy Spirit flashed into their minds the utterances of the prophets concerning Christ. Would they yield to this conviction? (DA 162)

This is from "It Is Finished."


This says that:


I think this is a key point.

From "The Desire of Ages"


They fled in terror, but Christ looked upon them yearning with pity. What a wonderful picture of God's character! Also, of the devastating power of sin.

Here's what you quoted: "But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Stopped too soon! Continuing: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ: "(T)he revealer of the character of God." There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

1. What does "God is the fountain of life" mean to you?

How is He the fountain of life?

Is God the fountain of life for the evil angels?

2. What does "he separates from God" mean to you?

How was he connected to God?

How does he disconnect from God?

Are evil angels connected to God?

3. What does "cuts himself off from life" mean to you?

How he is he attached to life?

How does he detach himself?

Are evil angels attached to life?

4. What does "His very presence" mean to you?

5. What does "a consuming fire" mean to you?

6. What does "the glory of Him who is love" mean to you?

7. What does "will destroy them" mean to you?

Amen! The fact Jesus felt pity for them is sad and beautiful. However, I don't understand how you answered the questions posted above (reposted below). You wrote, ""His physical presence caused problems with their minds (guilt/fear/consciousness of sin, etc.)"

Here's what you quoted: "But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Stopped too soon! Continuing: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ: "(T)he revealer of the character of God." There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

"When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ's countenance; they realized the import of His words."

In a general sense, what I believe is that sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true, such as that God is out to get us, or is angry at us, that He is sever, and harsh, that He will burn us alive, etc. These false ideas cause us to be terrified by God.

It was Christ who, amid thunder and flame, had proclaimed the law upon Mount Sinai. The glory of God, like devouring fire, rested upon its summit, and the mountain quaked at the presence of the Lord. {MB 45.1}

They behold the faces of the righteous lighted up, and reflecting the image of Jesus. Those who were so eager to destroy the saints could not endure the glory resting upon the delivered ones, and they fell like dead men to the earth. Satan and evil angels fled from the presence of the saints glorified. Their power to annoy them was gone forever. {RH, May 27, 1862 par. 4}

God has interposed to check their rash design. The glory of his presence, like a flame of light, illuminates the tabernacle. All the congregation behold the signal of the Lord. {ST, August 26, 1880 par. 13}

When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

It was indeed a ministration of glory, when, veiled by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, the Majesty of heaven led his people through the wilderness; when the symbol of the divine presence covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle; but the blessings and privileges granted to God's people in the present age exceed those bestowed upon ancient Israel. {RH, May 6, 1884 par. 5}

No traces of His recent agony were visible as Jesus stepped forth to meet His betrayer. Standing in advance of His disciples He said, “Whom seek ye?” They answered, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus replied, “I am He.” As these words were spoken, the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob. A divine light illuminated the Saviour’s face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him. In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment. They staggered back. Priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, fell as dead men to the ground. . . . {CSA 33.11}

May 14, 1851, I saw the beauty and loveliness of Jesus. As I beheld His glory, the thought did not occur to me that I should ever be separated from His presence. I saw a light coming from the glory that encircled the Father, and as it approached near to me, my body trembled and shook like a leaf. I thought that if it should come near me I would be struck out of existence; but the light passed me. {CET 112.1}

Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form. {DA 23.1}

During that long time spent in communion with God, the face of Moses had reflected the glory of the divine Presence; unknown to himself his face shonen with a dazzling light when he descended from the mountain. Such a light illumined the countenance of Stephen when brought before his judges; "and all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel." Acts 6:15. Aaron as well as the people shrank away from Moses, and "they were afraid to come nigh him." Seeing their confusion and terror, but ignorant of the cause, he urged them to come near. He held out to them the pledge of God's reconciliation, and assured them of His restored favor. They perceived in his voice nothing but love and entreaty, and at last one ventured to approach him. Too awed to speak, he silently pointed to the countenance of Moses, and then toward heaven. The great leader understood his meaning. In their conscious guilt, feeling themselves still under the divine displeasure, they could not endure the heavenly light, which, had they been obedient to God, would have filled them with joy. There is fear in guilt. The soul that is free from sin will not wish to hide from the light of heaven. {PP 329.5}

T:Here's what you quoted: "But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Stopped too soon! Continuing: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ: "(T)he revealer of the character of God." There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!

M:"His very presence" was physical. "Abide in His presence" was physical.

"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." It sounds like you believe this statement can be taken to literally mean - "The truth about God's character will slay the wicked." If so, will wicked humans and angels comprehend the truth about God's character until it kills them?

Also, what part does the following fire play as it relates to wicked humans and angels and the truth about God's character:

EGW:"The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

M:When did the evil angels choose the service of sin? If you say when they openly rebelled against God, why, then, didn't they also cut themselves off from life? How can they separate from God, choose the service of sin, cut themselves off from life - and continue to live all these years?

MM:Regarding the passage you posted above, please answer the following questions:

1. What does "divinity flashed through humanity" mean to you?

2. What does "indignation on Christ's countenance" mean to you?

3. What does "they realized the import of His words" mean to you?

T:In a general sense, what I believe is that sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true, such as that God is out to get us, or is angry at us, that He is sever, and harsh, that He will burn us alive, etc. These false ideas cause us to be terrified by God.

M:1. Is it the truth or the lies about God that will cause the wicked to suffer and die during the final judgment?

2. How will the wicked learn the truth about God during the final judgment? Will they learn truths they never knew? If so, what?

3. Will evil angels learn truths about God during the final judgment they don't already know? If so, what will they learn?

4. Do you think God will be physically present at the final judgment? If so, what effect will "His very presence" have on the wicked?

5. Will the love of God cause the wicked to reap what they have sown during the final judgment? If so, how?

"By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

According to the passages above, the light of the glory of God radiating from His presence is literal light.

I saw a light coming from the glory that encircled the Father ...

The glory of God is His character, and to us it is manifest in Christ. It is by beholding Him that we become changed,—by contemplating the character of Christ, learning His lessons, obeying His words. Enlightened by His Spirit, the believer sees no virtue or merit in himself. There is naught but deformity. But he beholds Jesus, and the glory of the Redeemer manifested in His atoning sacrifice, and His justifying righteousness, His fulness of grace, not only to pardon but to sanctify, fills his whole soul with admiration of the holiness and love of God; and in contemplating this goodness and mercy and love, he becomes transformed in character.

Jesus said, “The glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one as we are one.” On him who receives Christ, the glory of the Lord hath shined, the Sun of Righteousness has arisen, he rises from his low and worldly state, and shines by reflecting the light of Christ’s glory. Thus by looking continually to Jesus, contemplating His beauty, the believer is more and more transformed into the child of light.

“Ye are the light of the world.... Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” “Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples,” God is glorified in His children as they in their character represent Christ. Jesus says, “He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.” Good works are the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. It is impossible to be a disciple of Christ and be a fruitless branch. But the good works are wrought by Christ Himself through the human agent. And those who are doers of the words of Christ, will not only impart blessings of the highest order to others, but as they by their likeness and obedience to Christ represent His character, they bring joy to the heart of Christ and to all the holy ones of heaven.(The Present Truth, 12/29/92)

I'm not saying there isn't a physical manifestation of God as light . . .

Do you think it's coincidence that in one sentence it says that The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked, and the next that Christ is the revealer of God's character?

As I've stated many times, I think the only hope of understanding these subjects is to start with Jesus Christ. Ask the question, "What is God like?" and consider the life of Jesus Christ, especially the latter scenes. After having an idea of God's character based on this study, then study these things, and there's a chance of understanding them.

I've been saying this for years, MM, and you've just been reposting the same passages and making the same comments. My opinion hasn't changed. I believe that Jesus Christ is the revelation of God, and that our understanding of God must start with Christ, and be centered in Him.

Primarily it's sin.



The judgment reveals the truth.



They'll see their part in things more clearly than ever before.



Yes. The wicked don't like God, and don't want to be around Him.



Because of sin, the wicked will believe things about God, who is love, which are untrue, which causes them to feel guilt, distress, remorse, etc.



Right.

Do you also agree that the unveiled radiant light of God's physical presence is extremely bright and causes the unshielded wicked to suffer intense discomfort so much so that must they flee from it if they can to avoid being consumed to death? For example:

T:Do you think it's coincidence that in one sentence it says that The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked, and the next that Christ is the revealer of God's character?

As I've stated many times, I think the only hope of understanding these subjects is to start with Jesus Christ. Ask the question, "What is God like?" and consider the life of Jesus Christ, especially the latter scenes. After having an idea of God's character based on this study, then study these things, and there's a chance of understanding them.

I've been saying this for years, MM, and you've just been reposting the same passages and making the same comments. My opinion hasn't changed. I believe that Jesus Christ is the revelation of God, and that our understanding of God must start with Christ, and be centered in Him.

M:Yes, you have been arguing for years that we interpret everything that seems uncharacteristic of God in light of Jesus' earthly ministry.

However, Jesus never withdrew His protection and permitted sin or evil angels to cause death and destruction. Nor did He ever play the part of the humane hunter story. That is, Jesus never commanded His disciples to kill His enemies. What do you make of this in light of the fact you argue Jesus revealed everything we need to know about God's character?

I cannot discern from your answers what you believe will cause wicked humans and evil angels to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. It sounds like you're saying two different things will be at work - 1) the revelation and comprehension of the truth about God's character, and 2) the revelation and comprehension of their sinfulness. It seems like you're saying a combination of these two things in concert and contrast will result in the suffering and second death of the wicked. Is this what you believe?

his is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

The disasters of the past year [1889] in America have caused hearts to tremble, and similar disasters have fallen upon other countries. Already sprinklings from the vials of God's wrath have been let fall upon land and sea, affecting the elements of the air. The causes of these unusual conditions are being searched for, but in vain. {4MR 444.3}

God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected, but man suffers from pestilences. Cholera and unexplainable diseases have broken
out. Diphtheria raging to a limited extent, is gathering its harvest of precious little ones, and seems to be almost uncontrollable. {4MR 444.4}

These things are the result of the drops from the vials of God's wrath being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future. Earthquakes in various places have been felt, but these disturbances have been very limited. This year we may expect to have more. During the year that has just closed, whole cities have become nearly extinct. Thousands of people have been buried in the bowels of the earth. Premonitory convulsions have been felt in many places, giving warning of what may come as a surprise when the earth shakes and opens. Terrible shocks will come upon the earth, and the lordly palaces erected at great expense will certainly become heaps of ruins. The earth's crust will be rent by the outbursts of the elements concealed in the bowels of the earth. These elements, once broken loose, will sweep away the treasures of those who for years have been adding to their wealth by securing large possessions at starvation prices from those in their employ. And the religious world, too, is to be terribly shaken; for the end of all things is at hand.--Ms 24, 1891. {4MR 445.1}

Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood, these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. {1SP 81.3}

Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed, the ground heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder under ground. The air is heated, and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth. {1SP 82.1}

God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be, his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains pouring forth fire, and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear, have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene. They have been filled with awe as though they were beholding the infinite power of God. {1SP 82.2}

These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those who, like Pharaoh, would proudly say, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh! that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence, as when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence." Isaiah 64:1-3. {1SP 83.1}

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." Nahum 1:3-6. {1SP 83.2}

"Bow thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them." Psalm 144:5, 6. {1SP 84.1}

Greater wonders than have yet been seen will be witnessed by those upon the earth a short period previous to the coming of Christ. "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." {1SP 84.2}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Through Spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war; for it excites the worst passions of the soul, and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another; for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC88 589.1}

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields his creatures, and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what he has declared that he would, he will withdraw his blessings from the earth, and remove his protecting care from those who are rebelling against his law, and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others, and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC88 589.2}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hail-storms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. “The earth mourneth and fadeth away,” “the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” [Isaiah 24:4, 5.] {GC88 589.3}

And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils. The class that have provoked the displeasure of Heaven will charge all their troubles upon those whose obedience to God's commandments is a perpetual reproof to transgressors. It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of the Sunday-sabbath, that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced, and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity. Thus the accusation urged of old against the servant of God will be repeated, and upon grounds equally well established. “And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim.” [1 Kings 18:17, 18.] As the wrath of the people shall be excited by false charges, they will pursue a course toward God's ambassadors very similar to that which apostate Israel pursued toward Elijah. {GC88 590.1}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Tom, thank you.

While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

Tom, I still cannot discern from your answers what you believe will cause wicked humans and evil angels to suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is “alienated from the life of God.” Christ says, “All they that hate Me love death.” Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God’s goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

It sounds like you're saying two different things will be at work:

1) the revelation and comprehension of the truth about God's character.

2) the revelation and comprehension of their sinfulness.

It seems like you're saying a combination of these two things in concert and contrast will result in the suffering and second death of the wicked.

Is this what you believe?

Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

You may not remember this, but I pointed this out a couple of years ago. It's interesting that she brings out these two points. On the one hand, the sinner is destroyed because he separates himself from God, who alone is the source of life. On the other hand, the glory of God, who is love, destroys him. How should we put these together?

The wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love.

Kland, 4MR 444 makes it clear God permits evil angels to cause death and destruction "as far as God allows".

M: While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

T: Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

M: Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment".

Why does it cause them to suffer and die?

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is “alienated from the life of God.” Christ says, “All they that hate Me love death.” Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God’s goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

1
: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>

M:While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

T:Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

M:Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment".

T:You may not remember this, but I pointed this out a couple of years ago. It's interesting that she brings out these two points. On the one hand, the sinner is destroyed because he separates himself from God, who alone is the source of life. On the other hand, the glory of God, who is love, destroys him. How should we put these together?

M:Personally, I believe it is the light radiating from the person and presence of God that causes them to suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

Separating from God, the source of life, merely means they subject themselves to final judgment.

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

I guess I didn't see anything in those quotes about evil angels. Maybe it's one of those implied things. If you agree that in those quotes God's wrath is Him permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction as allowed, and if these "are but faint representations of what will be in the near future", would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?

What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches that men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor? The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {LDE 27.4}

The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}

God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}

How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3}

15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.
16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Already the restraining Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they may not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of his avenging wrath as no pen can picture. {RH, January 11, 1887 par. 14}

Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God, or be cut down by the destroying weapons. Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}

At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. {EW 64.2}

The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. . . . The bolts of God's wrath are soon to fall, and when He shall begin to punish the transgressors there will be no period of respite until the end.--TM 182 (1894). {LDE 238.2}

(quoting EGW)Already the restraining Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they may not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of his avenging wrath as no pen can picture. {RH, January 11, 1887 par. 14}

Already the restraining Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth.

but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of his avenging wrath as no pen can picture.

M: It sounds like you're saying two different things will be at work: 1) the revelation and comprehension of the truth about God's character, and 2) the revelation and comprehension of their sinfulness. So, it seems like you're saying a combination of these two things in concert and contrast will result in the suffering and second death of the wicked. Is this what you believe?

T: Yes, but I think 1) is what causes 2). That is, the wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love.

M: Why does it cause them to suffer and die?

T: You've asked me this question many times, and my response has been to quote this. I've offered some thoughts, but I'm hesitant to go beyond what's written here. It says:

1.This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.

The primary definition of "arbitrary" is depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>

People often use it to mean "capricious", or "whimsical", meaning without a reason. But the context doesn't bear out this interpretation, as EGW does not explain that God was just for destroying the wicked, but that the wicked reap what they sow, and they are causing their own destruction. This agrees with the primary definition.

2.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.

Death comes are a result of sin. This is repeated later in the quoted.

3.God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

This seems to explain how death occurs. The sinner separates himself from life.

4.God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

This again makes the point that the wicked receive the results of their choice. This is the wrath of God.

5.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished.

This points out that when God lets go, which is His exercising His wrath (see Romans 1), the wicked perish.

So these are the principles involved.

M: While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

T: Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

M: Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment". Ellen wrote: [quotes omitted by Tom]

T: Is this what you understand is going on? Or do you see God's using holy angels to cause destruction? It sounded to me like you were saying both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction. This isn't what you think?

T: You may not remember this, but I pointed this out a couple of years ago. It's interesting that she brings out these two points. On the one hand, the sinner is destroyed because he separates himself from God, who alone is the source of life. On the other hand, the glory of God, who is love, destroys him. How should we put these together?

M: Personally, I believe it is the light radiating from the person and presence of God that causes them to suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

T: Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

M: Separating from God, the source of life, merely means they subject themselves to final judgment.

T: She wrote: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." How do you have this mean that the wicked are subjecting themselves to judgment?

This is a perfect example of the principle we've been trying to draw attention to. Notice it says:


and


God's "avenging wrath" is associated with His act of removing His protection.

You said "the wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love" and that this is what will cause them to suffer and die in final judgment. Can I deduce, then, that this is what you believe is the full and inevitable result of sin? If so, can I also deduce this is what you believe God is now preventing so that we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus?

I wrote: 1) while holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, 2) evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions.

Why did it sound to you like I said "both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction"?

Also, why do you believe God "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment", His strange "act of punishment"?

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

T: Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

M:You and I both agree God glows, that a literal light radiates from His physical presence. But we disagree as to effect this light has on the righteous and the unrighteous. You seem to think it has no effect on either one, that it is as harmless as candlelight.

Whereas I believe it will cause the wicked to suffer and die. However, I also believe the wicked will experience unimaginable soul agony and anguish as they revisit their sins in final judgment. I do not believe it will only be physical.

T: She wrote: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." How do you have this mean that the wicked are subjecting themselves to judgment?

M:The context of her statement is final judgment. If it means something like unplugging an appliance, why, then, do they go on living, some suffering for many days before dying?

If they are unplugged, what is the source of their life as they linger on suffering intense, unimaginable agony and anguish?

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. . . If He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world . . . would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues [and] be destroyed by them. . . He shall . . . punish the transgressors. . . God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also."

You asked, "If these 'are but faint representations of what will be in the near future', would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?"

Yes, of course. Evil angels, as far as Jesus permits, cause death and destruction. Jesus "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment". The "act of punishment" often involves evil angels causing death and destruction.

However, do you agree holy angels will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

M: You said "the wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love" and that this is what will cause them to suffer and die in final judgment. Can I deduce, then, that this is what you believe is the full and inevitable result of sin? If so, can I also deduce this is what you believe God is now preventing so that we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus?

T: If these things happen in the final judgment, are you asking if God is preventing the final judgment from happening so we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus? There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life.

T: Is this what you understand is going on? Or do you see God's using holy angels to cause destruction? It sounded to me like you were saying both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction. This isn't what you think?

M: I wrote: 1) while holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, 2) evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Why did it sound to you like I said "both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction"?

T: Because that's what it sounds like. What is it you mean? Who causes destruction? Holy angels only? Evil angels only? Or both simultaneously?

M: Also, why do you believe God "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment", His strange "act of punishment"?

T: I suppose what you're asking by this is what I think this means. What I think it means is not that God uses His enemies like puppets, or that what His enemies do are what God plans for them to do, but that God works in spite of what His enemies do to accomplish His purposes. I'm not sure what this quote comes from, but we could use the destruction of Jerusalem as an example. Did God use His enemies to execute justice and judgment? Absolutely. How did He do so? He did so as explained in GC 35-37. For example: “God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.”

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. . . Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. . . Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. [PP 109.1}

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King. {PP 491.2}

An appreciation of the Lord's mercy will lead to an appreciation of those who, like Gideon, have been employed as instruments to bless His people. The cruel course of Israel toward the house of Gideon was what might be expected from a people who manifested so great ingratitude to God. {PP 556.3}

T: Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

M: You and I both agree God glows, that a literal light radiates from His physical presence. But we disagree as to effect this light has on the righteous and the unrighteous. You seem to think it has no effect on either one, that it is as harmless as candlelight.

T: MM, I quote you, and you get upset. On the other hand, you feel at perfect liberty to just make things up regarding what I've said, and put your own words into my mouth. I've never said anything remotely like this. Please don't misrepresent my views in this way. Please quote things I've said.

M: Whereas I believe it will cause the wicked to suffer and die. However, I also believe the wicked will experience unimaginable soul agony and anguish as they revisit their sins in final judgment. I do not believe it will only be physical.

T: Do you think the physical is the more important? Up until now, this is all you've mentioned. You are again saying that it is the physical aspect that causes the death of the wicked. I don't understand why you would think the physical suffering caused by the radiant light emanating from God would cause the wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness. I see you are saying that the wicked will suffer agony of soul when their sins are revisited. It makes sense that this is proportional, right? So do you think that physical suffering is added on top of the spiritual suffering that naturally occurs? Or do you see the physical pain as attached to the spiritual, occurring at the same time?

T: She wrote: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." How do you have this mean that the wicked are subjecting themselves to judgment?

M: The context of her statement is final judgment. If it means something like unplugging an appliance, why, then, do they go on living, some suffering for many days before dying?

T: This question doesn't seem to make sense. Obviously if it were like an appliance being unplugged, they would die right away.

M: If they are unplugged, what is the source of their life as they linger on suffering intense, unimaginable agony and anguish?

T: Isn't it obvious you've got the timing wrong here?

So it seems clear that it is Satan who is causing these evils, not God.

She refers to "the powers of darkness" which I take to mean evil angels. I suppose it could include evil humans. To what purpose does God employ these kinds of "agencies" and "means" of death and destruction? Ellen wrote:

You asked, "If these 'are but faint representations of what will be in the near future', would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?" Yes, of course. Evil angels, as far as Jesus permits, cause death and destruction. Jesus "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment". The "act of punishment" often involves evil angels causing death and destruction.

However, do you agree holy angels will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

T: If these things happen in the final judgment, are you asking if God is preventing the final judgment from happening so we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus? There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life.

M:You’ve already made it clear what you believe will cause the wicked to suffer and die during final judgment, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness.

What I would like to know now is:

1. Is “comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness”, which results in suffering and second death, the full and inevitable result of sin?

2. If so, do you believe God works now to prevent sinners from comprehending the contrast between His love and their sinfulness?

T: Because that's what it sounds like. What is it you mean? Who causes destruction? Holy angels only? Evil angels only? Or both simultaneously?

M:Do you think evil angels “stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions” is equivalent to holy angels causing the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues? I don’t. So, to answer your question, no, I think it is obvious both the Bible and the SOP make it clear it is holy angels who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.

You seem to think the holy angels are praying for double punishment and praising God for commanding them to permit evil angels to exercise the “divine justice and judgment”, to “execute” the “vengeance” and “retributive” “punishment” portrayed by the seven last plagues. Have I misunderstood you?

God uses, employs the forces of nature as His agents to cause death and destruction. He has also used, employed His chosen people as agents, instruments to execute His will, namely, to cause the death and destruction of His enemies, and thereby bless His people.

T: Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

M: You and I both agree God glows, that a literal light radiates from His physical presence. But we disagree as to effect this light has on the righteous and the unrighteous. You seem to think it has no effect on either one, that it is as harmless as candlelight.

T: MM, I quote you, and you get upset. On the other hand, you feel at perfect liberty to just make things up regarding what I've said, and put your own words into my mouth. I've never said anything remotely like this. Please don't misrepresent my views in this way. Please quote things I've said.

M:When did you quote me? What did you quote? Also, what did I say above that you feel misrepresents your view? Do you believe a literal light radiates from God? If so, what effect does it have on the wicked?

The reason I am emphasizing the physical aspect of final judgment is because you are emphasizing the emotional aspect.

I believe both are real and important. However, I agree with you that the emotional agony and anguish will overshadow the physical pain. I think we agree on what will cause them emotional agony, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s righteousness and their unrighteousness. The question, then, is – What will cause them physical pain?

M:Ellen wrote, "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." The word “when” indicates the timing, that is, they cut themselves off from life when they choose to serve sin instead of God. Obviously, the word “life” indicates the abundant life, a life of peace and happiness. Thus separated, they are facing judgment and eternal death. They are in essence dead.

The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the 36destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan’s vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}