Jesus came "to become perfected" in the flesh, not born that way.

Was Jesus born perfect?

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}

Every human being has a record in heaven. This is "the Book of Remembrance" and everything we do or think in life is written there. It is the perfect DNA blueprint of the life of every man. Perfection is a journey. We are born with a clean slate but we are hindered by the inherited characteristics of our father and mother. Jesus had a Father with a perfect character, and a mother with a developing character. This was his only advantage in life in comparison to all other men. Mary was not perfect but she was on the road to perfection and God spoke to her so her character development was beyond other women in faith, even though she questioned God later, convinced Jesus was delusional, set against Him by his half brothers.


"Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was manifest in the flesh. What was his work in this world?—To put away sin by the sacrifice of himself on the cross of Calvary. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. By his prayers and strong supplications, he overcame. In his human nature, he perfected a character after the divine similitude. By a life of perfect obedience to every requirement of God, he procured redemption for all who will be obedient. The divine nature is imparted to those who receive and acknowledge him as their Saviour. (JT; it is immediate if we accept the gift) They become partakers of the divine nature, overcoming the assaults of Satan and escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. Christ energizes by his Spirit those who seek him with the whole heart. {RH August 31, 1905, par. 13}
Those who truly receive Christ are given power to become the sons of God. As they look to Jesus, they catch the divine rays of light, and are attracted by the loveliness and purity and goodness of the Saviour. They seek to copy his pleasantness, rather than the harsh violence manifested by those who disregard the laws of God. And as they keep before them the fear of God, and walk as obedient children, others will mark their Christlikeness of character, and will be drawn to the Saviour by the revelation of their love, their justice, and their mercy. Yet some will refuse to come to the Saviour, choosing darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. {RH August 31, 1905, par. 14}
Christ and his righteousness,—let this be our platform, the very life of our faith. That which he taught, we are to teach. His commission to his followers is: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature;” “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” {RH August 31, 1905, par. 15}

Jesus came from Heaven with the character of God, but when He was born as a man, He had the right to do anything He wanted in the realm of being human, He was led by every possible advantage a human can have for discovery and through answer to prayer He realized His divinity early in life. He realized He could not use His divinity to overcome sin and immediately He was tested on every point beyond what we would ever be tested, yet He did not fail to do what is right. THIS IS WHAT PERFECTED HIM AS A MAN! The record in heaven was spotless for Him, using only that which is for all men's use from God. Prayer in faith. He is our example of faith. If you really want to receive greater faith you have to trust God like Jesus did. Every word life.

"We should seek most earnestly to have Christ abiding in our hearts by faith, that we may be kept through temptation without sin. We should be constantly looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, so that we can attain unto righteousness. The closer we draw to Jesus, and the more clearly we see his life and character, the less we shall think of ourselves. There are a class that say that they are sanctified, they are holy, and yet they are living in transgression of God’s law. Shall we take their word as truth, or shall we compare their characters and doctrines with the word of God? “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” But the apostle says, “Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him.” Every soul must be brought to the test of God’s great standard of righteousness; and if the character is not in accordance with God’s law, it is not in a right condition before God." {RH July 15, 1890, par. 1}

When we receive the words of God in the shadow of the perfected character of Jesus, trusting in the fact that He gave us the right to become right with Him, or perfected, when we receive these truths in our hearts that is when we stand perfected through the merits of Jesus, before the Father. It is then that the record of our sins are transferred to the Mercy seat and our names are recorded into the Lambs book of life, which is a record of everyone who has entered into His faith, our sins covered by His righteousness.

These are the fruits that we shall know them by.

I will miss talking with you all, Peace.

I agree with you, that Christ took our fallen human nature! It is interesting how this debate continues.

...Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses, Isaiah 53:3-4, Matthew 8:17. Burdened with the sins of the world, He must pass over the path where Adam fell, and redeem his failure. When Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him, but he was surrounded by the glories of Eden. {BEcho, November 15, 1892 par. 1} He would have us comprehend something of his love in giving his Son to die that he might counteract evil, remove the defiling stains of sin from the workmanship of God, and re-instate the lost, elevating and ennobling the soul to its original purity through Christ's imputed righteousness. {RH, November 8, 1892 par. 2}

"We are born with a clean slate but we are hindered by the inherited characteristics of our father and mother."

So we are not born with a clean slate. See Romans 5:12-21; Romans 8:7.

"The divine nature is imparted to those who receive and acknowledge him as their Saviour. (JT; it is immediate if we accept the gift) They become partakers of the divine nature, overcoming the assaults of Satan and escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust."

It immediately is given!. That does not mean we are perfect. The greatest battle that is ever fought, is the battle against self, which we must fight every day. (See the opening paragraphs of Steps to Christ, chapter 5)

The defiling stains of sin in the workmanship of God, is real, it is physical, it is in our very fabric. Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1} Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}

Jesus was born perfect (sinless) and He became perfect (mature).

You miss all the SOP quotes that say He was born of the Spirit from the womb, so it is not a correct complete picture, need to dig below the surface .

Mike - it depends on how you define sin. Is sin just a mental disease? Or is sin real, and physical? Why do dogs get cancer and die? SIN. The whole creation is infected with sin. Jesus came and took our sinful nature, but did not yield to it even for a moment.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

I read this verse now literally. EGW put it this way:

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}

Hebrews 2:14-18
(14) For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(16) For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
(17) Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(18) For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

John 17:18-19
(18) As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
(19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

EGW commenting on this verse says this: "Christ declared He sanctified Himself, that we also might be sanctified. He took upon Himself our nature, and became a faultless pattern for men."

When was this sanctification completed? Right up to the end in several stages.
John 14:30
(30) Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Right at the end, there was nothing in Christ that would respond to the Devil. Sin was silenced. The final step was to completely remove it. This started in Gethsemane where it was seen he was lack of a better term, disintegrating. Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (See DA 690.1) Christ was strengthen, only to go through it again on the Cross, and even that was hidden by darkness for several hours. When He accomplished His work on the cross, He declared, "It is finished", John 19:30.

Of this, the Bible states, Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Are your sins purged? Are mine? No, but He bore our sins in His body on the tree, and purged those. Now he is working as our High Priest applying His work in those who will trust Him to allow Him to heal us. Taking our fallen condition, He sanctified Himself, so that we may be sanctified. He took our sinful (full of sin) fallen condition, in order to know how to "succor" us. To help us, to heal us.

Brother Mike.

How fair would it be for God to contend with the temptations of Satan as God?

If He was to redeem mankind He must live FULLY as a man, to show the path to overcoming sin. He only used what powers have been made available to every man so that we can have faith that what happened for Him could happen and did happen for us.

He was born in the flesh, living life as a man, without record of sin at the finish line. This resistance to evil perfected Him as a man, and proved that He always felt this love for us because the plan was shown to be eternal, laid from the beginning of time.

But just as Adam, He had to go through the test to become the second Adam, He chose to subject Himself to His own laws just like every created being, and in it showed the perfect path to peace with God. So even though He was fully God, simultaneously He was ONLY fully man, and only used the pre-planed schedule and agenda to fulfill what the Father had proposed in His heart from the moment they wanted to create men in their image.

How many people realize the Apostles performed miracles for Christ after the Early Rain? They would lay the sick in the path of Paul and Peter and John so that when their shadow passed over them they were cured! The point is, miracles happen when the Spirit of Christ resides there, because of how Jesus refused evil. But when in a town that did not believe in the plan of salvation and redemption through Christ "He could do no miracles there".

"Jesus, who was born in Bethlehem; who worked with his earthly father at the carpenter’s trade; who sat in weariness by Jacob’s well; who slept in weariness in Peter’s fishing-boat; who hungered and thirsted; who took little children in his arms and blessed them; who was rejected, scourged, and crucified,—ascended in the form of a man to Heaven, and took his place at the right hand of God. Having felt our infirmities, our sorrows, and temptations, he is amply fitted to plead for man as his representative. Jesus, when upon earth, was the most perfect type of man; and it is the Christian’s joy and comfort that this patient, loving Saviour is to be his King and Judge; for “the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” {6Red 73.2}
We are not inclined to associate kingly glory and judicial authority with the self-denial, patience, love, and forgiveness shown in the life of Christ; yet these attributes qualified the Saviour for his exalted position. The qualities of character which he developed on earth constitute his exaltation in glory. His triumphs were gained by love, not by force. In coming to Christ the sinner consents to be elevated to the noblest ideal of man. {6Red 74.1}
“Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?” The attributes which exalted Christ, if obtained by his followers, will place the scepter in their hands, and they shall be kings and priests with God. Christ pledged himself to keep the law which Adam transgressed, and to magnify that law and make it honorable by demonstrating that it was not arbitrary, and could be kept inviolate by man. Christ showed by his life that the law of God is faultless, and that man, by disobeying it, brings upon himself the evils which its restrictions seek to avert from him. {6Red 74.2}

I love the thought that love is ever growing. The love of God is ever perfected through Jesus, His Son whom He delights in.

Jesus was perfected beyond the level of perfection He had in heaven in His life here on earth and learned to love even more, so perfection grows.

Please pay attention, The beauty of this Brothers, is that this train of thought ties to the key of the power of it all. Jesus had to be judged by the same laws that Satan was accusing Him of breaking, to be judged like a man in man's stead. Then the record can be laid open for all to see who is right.

He became the second Adam by living the life Adam longed for after his fall. This is how Jesus can enter into our hearts now if we let Him. Vicariously He enters into our hearts, to show us our true selves in comparison to what He endured for us. Then we can see how important faith in His strength really is.

That is the message my Father has given to me and all of you. I do not even begin to claim to understand. But this is where the Power that God wants us to have dwells.

Here is a mental picture if you will...

We are on this planet, cut off from the Father because of sin, destined to die the second death, because that is what every single man who has ever been born into sin deserves.

The new Jerusalem is hovering over the place that it will settle forever after the earth is made new.

Imagine being resurrected into that place. The second death. Totally cut off from anything righteous. No Holy Spirit to motivate, no heavenly angels to protect and every other mother's son who had done wicked things is out there with you, with evil angels orchestrating the lost. Waiting for the fires of hell to consume you. This is when the realizations settle in.

CUT OFF!

OK, now you see what Jesus saw for us in Gethsemane, and He carried that for a whole day. From Thursday evening at sundown leaving the upper room and exiting the eastern gate, crossing over the brook Kidron and entering Gethsemane to sweat blood, till dying on the cross Friday at even (3PM) He was living our experience for us. Then He slept for two days, thank you Father for your mercy. This is the sign of Jonah's three days and three nights. This is when He was in the HEART of the earth.

I have to keep pointing these things out because of how important they are, and seeing everyone sleeping or slumbering. I know there is nothing more important than this... Jesus walked more than a mile in my shoes so I can have His mercy and grace, which motivates me to want to keep His commandments perfectly. That's all I know. Peace.

I agree Jesus bore our sins in His sinful flesh nature. He maintained mastery over it and them always and continually. He conquered it and them on the cross. He will place them on Satan at the end of time. Satan will suffer and perish with them in the lake of fire. When he dies, they will cease to be.

Nevertheless, Jesus was born perfect, without the stain of sin upon His character. The sin He bore in His body never contaminated His character. Also, He never chose to sin, thus His character remained sinless. Moreover, Jesus became perfect by maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

Weren't we all born without stain of sin? But the bible still says we are sinners even then. He was counted among the transgressors for our salvation, remember that.

At birth our parents are responsible for our souls. Who they are, we are until the age of accountability.

Jesus had one earthly parent who was not perfect and you seem to forget this part. This is important because it connects Christ to us. That is why the family tree of Mary is in the book of Luke, To show the connection of the bloodline of the seed. From Adam to Christ.

What is funny about this is the fact this is the greatest honor to have Jesus truly part of our race, but men want to erase this element to faith.

Hear this messianic prophecy...

Psalm 88 O Lord, God of my salvation;
I cry out day and night before you.
2 Let my prayer come before you;
incline your ear to my cry!
3 For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
5 like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
6 You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep.
7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah
8 You have caused my companions to shun me;
you have made me a horror[b] to them.
I am shut in so that I cannot escape;
9 my eye grows dim through sorrow.
Every day I call upon you, O Lord;
I spread out my hands to you.
10 Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah
11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
12 Are your wonders known in the darkness,
or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
13 But I, O Lord, cry to you;
in the morning my prayer comes before you.
14 O Lord, why do you cast my soul away?
Why do you hide your face from me?
15 Afflicted and close to death from my youth up,
I suffer your terrors; I am helpless.
16 Your wrath has swept over me;
your dreadful assaults destroy me.
17 They surround me like a flood all day long;
they close in on me together.
18 You have caused my beloved and my friend to shun me;
my companions have become darkness.

These are the things Jesus pondered while carrying the weight of our sins on His head from Gethsemane to the cross.

We were all born with the carnal nature. We must be born again (John 3) The carnal nature is enmity towards God and cannot please God (Romans 8) We must be born again, renewed, transformed by the Holy spirit.

Christ was born perfect. His was the "born again" nature from the beginning. We are not to bring Christ down to our level, He will lift us up to His level through the born again experience.

We are totally incapable of living according to God's righteousness. We can only live it when we die to the old nature and rise with Christ in newness of life with Holy spirit filling our lives.



"A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, and heart, and soul. The apostle says, "And we have the mind of Christ." Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. . . . {EGW in Reflecting Christ 303.4}


" Our Lord was tempted as man is tempted. He was capable of yielding to temptations, as are human beings. His finite nature was pure and spotless,... But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man.... Christ's perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. [16MR 181-182}

This is a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ and His work. He was without the propensities of sin that every other child is born with, and yet his human flesh was degenerated like other people in his day through 4,000 years of sin. The age was no longer close to a thousand years.

It means so much to study the final weeks of Jesus on earth. On the cross it was His human nature that died. His divinity did not die. It was divinity that brought Him back to life. And through Him divinity has to see us through.

So none of you believe in the words of the Spirit of Prophecy when she said through the Spirit of God that...

"In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}

You guys are proving that you don't really know the truth here. Be careful how you respond.

"In his human nature, he perfected a character after the divine similitude. By a life of perfect obedience to every requirement of God, he procured redemption for all who will be obedient.

Yes, He had the character of God, but He also partook of the nature of man. In this it means He had to be proven in character just like every man who ever lived had to be proven in devotion. Even before Adam had sinned he had to be proven, or go through a test of loyalty.

"With deep earnestness the mother of Jesus watched the unfolding of His powers, and beheld the impress of perfection upon His character. With delight she sought to encourage that bright, receptive mind. Through the Holy Spirit she received wisdom to co-operate with the heavenly agencies in the development of this child, who could claim only God as His Father. {DA 69.1}
From the earliest times the faithful in Israel had given much care to the education of the youth. The Lord had directed that even from babyhood the children should be taught of His goodness and His greatness, especially as revealed in His law, and shown in the history of Israel. Song and prayer and lessons from the Scriptures were to be adapted to the opening mind. Fathers and mothers were to instruct their children that the law of God is an expression of His character, and that as they received the principles of the law into the heart, the image of God was traced on mind and soul. Much of the teaching was oral; but the youth also learned to read the Hebrew writings; and the parchment rolls of the Old Testament Scriptures were open to their study. {DA 69.2}
In the days of Christ the town or city that did not provide for the religious instruction of the young was regarded as under the curse of God. Yet the teaching had become formal. Tradition had in a great degree supplanted the Scriptures. True education would lead the youth to “seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him.” Acts 17:27. But the Jewish teachers gave their attention to matters of ceremony. The mind was crowded with material that was worthless to the learner, and that would not be recognized in the higher school of the courts above. The experience which is obtained through a personal acceptance of God’s word had no place in the educational system. Absorbed in the round of externals, the students found no quiet hours to spend with God. They did not hear His voice speaking to the heart. In their search after knowledge, they turned away from the Source of wisdom. The great essentials of the service of God were neglected. The principles of the law were obscured. That which was regarded as superior education was the greatest hindrance to real development. Under the training of the rabbis the powers of the youth were repressed. Their minds became cramped and narrow. {DA 69.3}
The child Jesus did not receive instruction in the synagogue schools. His mother was His first human teacher. From her lips and from the scrolls of the prophets, He learned of heavenly things. The very words which He Himself had spoken to Moses for Israel He was now taught at His mother’s knee. As He advanced from childhood to youth, He did not seek the schools of the rabbis. He needed not the education to be obtained from such sources; for God was His instructor. {DA 70.1}
The question asked during the Saviour’s ministry, “How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?” does not indicate that Jesus was unable to read, but merely that He had not received a rabbinical education. John 7:15. Since He gained knowledge as we may do, His intimate acquaintance with the Scriptures shows how diligently His early years were given to the study of God’s word. And spread out before Him was the great library of God’s created works. He who had made all things studied the lessons which His own hand had written in earth and sea and sky. Apart from the unholy ways of the world, He gathered stores of scientific knowledge from nature. He studied the life of plants and animals, and the life of man. From His earliest years He was possessed of one purpose; He lived to bless others. For this He found resources in nature; new ideas of ways and means flashed into His mind as He studied plant life and animal life. Continually He was seeking to draw from things seen illustrations by which to present the living oracles of God. The parables by which, during His ministry, He loved to teach His lessons of truth show how open His spirit was to the influences of nature, and how He had gathered the spiritual teaching from the surroundings of His daily life. {DA 70.2}
Thus to Jesus the significance of the word and the works of God was unfolded, as He was trying to understand the reason of things. Heavenly beings were His attendants, and the culture of holy thoughts and communings was His. From the first dawning of intelligence He was constantly growing in spiritual grace and knowledge of truth. {DA 70.3}
Every child may gain knowledge as Jesus did. As we try to become acquainted with our heavenly Father through His word, angels will draw near, our minds will be strengthened, our characters will be elevated and refined. We shall become more like our Saviour. And as we behold the beautiful and grand in nature, our affections go out after God. While the spirit is awed, the soul is invigorated by coming in contact with the Infinite through His works. Communion with God through prayer develops the mental and moral faculties, and the spiritual powers strengthen as we cultivate thoughts upon spiritual things. {DA 70.4}

Again, depends on how you define "perfect". When Christ was born, did He have all knowledge? No. Luke 2:52 AKJV And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Jesus developed a perfect character during His life: DA 762: The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character.

Christ took on the sins of the world, but NEVER participated in its sin. Again, EGW:
What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}

Question - does a new born baby need a savior? Yes, or no?

Brother Mt Man, if you will look at my original post I never said Jesus sinned neither in thought or action. But He was born with a human nature and still did not sin.



Yes they do.

You had the answer in the next sentence when I said " Weren't we all born without stain of sin? But the bible still says we are sinners even then."

John 3:6 (ESV) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. He humbled Himself. What a subject for thought, for deep, earnest contemplation! So infinitely great that He was the Majesty of heaven, and yet He stooped so low, without losing one atom of His dignity and glory! He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men.—The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 453.4}

"The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden “the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.” Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour’s sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. 8 {CSA 6.8}

Many people use this fact of being born into sin as an excuse to not making any headway in victory over sin...

"There are many who in their hearts murmur against God. They say, “We inherit the fallen nature of Adam, and are not responsible for our natural imperfections.” They find fault with God’s requirements, and complain that he demands what they have no power to give. Satan made the same complaint in heaven, but such thoughts dishonor God. And the Lord knoweth our thoughts afar off. He speaks to his people, saying, “O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me.” The complainers have an opportunity to bring their accusations against him; their Maker gives them an opportunity to speak. What charge have you to bring against Him that ruleth in the heavens? What have you to say against His dealings with you? What against His government? What against His law? If you have any excuse to offer for your neglect to comply with the conditions upon which your salvation is based, now make them known. If you have any excuse for sin, for impenitence, for covetousness, or for sensuality, you are permitted to give your reasons. Those who would justify themselves in wrongdoing, and lay the blame of their disobedience upon God, will be heard. They argue that they are born with strong passions and appetites, and are surrounded with objects that solicit to sin, and under such circumstances how is it just to condemn them? But God answers: “I did all that could be done for your forefather Adam; I gave him the noblest qualities and the highest powers; my requirements were light upon him. It was because he did not believe my word, did not choose to stand the simple test I imposed upon him, but believed the word of my enemy, that he fell from his holy estate. But in his fallen condition did I not send help? I sent my Son, who was equal with myself, that he might live an example upon earth, and die for man’s transgressions, that you might make no mistakes or failures in obtaining eternal life.” {ST August 29, 1892, par. 2}

Adam fell because he lost faith in the word of God, and to faith in the word we must be restored. We must believe the word of God to enter heaven or be under the guidance of parents who are justified and believe the word.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.—The Review and Herald, December 15, 1896. {7ABC 452.6}

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Like I said before, the only advantage Jesus used in His victory over sin was the fact that He inherited the CHARACTER of His Father. This fact gave Him nobility of character inherently. But still, to be "perfected" as a man, to become the second Adam and fill the High Priestly position that Adam lost at his fall, Jesus needed to pass the test that Adam failed. This is what "perfected" the human nature of Jesus and restored man to the image of God through faith. The faith OF Jesus, who strengthens us by His faith and shows you perfect truth in His Spirit.

Our nature is fallen because of the fact that we are not born under the protective shield of the garment of the righteousness that covers those children born by parents who have not fallen.

Jesus was only fallen in this nature, in the association of having a 'corruptible' (not corrupted) body and mind.

The glory is, He not only came to restore man to "heavenly access status" forevermore, but we will become 'incorruptible' after probation ends. most people forget Adam was corruptible or under probation before his fall. The next life we become incorruptible and all un-fallen worlds also pass probation and become incorruptible with us.

APL; I wanted to correct the statement you quoted because of the wording.

When I said "Weren't we all born without stain of sin?" it should be clarified that I meant "weren't we all born without a record of sin against us individually?" But this is still being born in a fallen condition because of our parents and their parents sin before us.

We were not born covered in the garment of light that Adam lost after sinning. Neither was Jesus. In fact He covered His glory with humanity so we could touch Him and hold Him.

"Born with the carnal nature"? 'Carnal' is in Rom 8, yes, but we're born sinful, not carnal! We aren't born with a sinful character, after all, just a sinful heredity - that is the character of our ancestry.

I think you agree, dedication, as this is an easy confusion between carnal/sinful.

We do indeed need to be born from above, amen!

Question; why do the majority of scientists believe we were once beasts in our lineage; our Paleontology? Because without GOD the creator, we become lower than the beasts. They see it, and recognize without laws man is a mess and since they beklieve we evolved they see that state of 'carnality' as our beginning, which is the perfect mind trap of Satan, but in fact we were born better than we are now through Adam in the beginning. All the different possible DNA combinations were in him, including the DNA of Jesus. When Adam fell, Satan though it would be impossible for even God to correct the situation because of the depravity of man without a covering.

Satan rejoiced in being freed from the pit that held him and his angels captive...

until at the first altar the Holy angels showed Adam how to sacrifice. They showed him the plan of salvation in his mind, and Adam walked away covered with the skin of the lamb as a sign. This made Satan so angry. He knew then, Jesus was coming to get us.

Satan loves us to remain in confusion and degradation. He makes us feel comfortable there. He tempts us as he tempted Christ, and this is our test. The test of Adam, Can you stand? That is question. The only way off this rock, and the only way to live eternally is through Christ, He is the only man to live a sinless
life. So to Him we are to measure ourselves. When we see His humility it has a subduing effect on our souls if we truly love Him. If we don't we end up in the mob that came to get Him to stand trial.

I would not go that far, as Christ was begotten of the Holy Ghost and also born of the Spirit, not every child or baby is born of the Spirit in the mothers womb. But Christ has no advantage over us as we all can be 'born of the Spirit' or reborn as Christ explained it to Nicodemus. God can fill with the power of the Holy Ghost even from the womb...

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Sorry for this side topic,

Since Jesus' divinity did not die in his death, who or what of worthiness died on the cross for a sacrifice for sin? Did God die for us, in the end, or only a human death?...

The Son of God died. That's not divine nature, but divine identity: Jesus, the very Son of God himself, died as a man. That's why Jesus divine identity personally distinguished from his Father is so pivotal to the Gospel of Calvary's cross.

If not the actual Son of God, divine with his Father, can Jesus have died as 'Son' in a figurative sense? Doesn't sound like it, since then he would not be the actual personal, divine identity who died for us.

A critical point of truth in the Gospel.

Humanity died; divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. – {1SM 301.1}

Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” – {5BC 1113.4}

Amen!

Amen APL. You have received a very good understanding of truth.



On the cross when Jesus the Son of God was dying the physical death He said "Father into thine hands I commend my Spirit" then He died.

"Through Jesus, God’s mercy was manifested to men; but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God’s character, and not a jot or tittle of it could be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man’s redemption. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” 2 Corinthians 5:19. {DA 762.1}

"When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will." {5BC 1113.4}

Notice here how the prophecy says "Humanity died", not the just the humanity of Christ, but all of humanity died in His death. He literally died the second death, cut off from the Father, for every man who would ever be born if they would only accept His offering for us. There is a lot to learn here. Humanity died and in their place came 'son's of God' resurrected to new life.

This is the greatest mystery of scripture.

God called Jesus back to life, and Jesus, who had life within himself resurrected himself by the power that the Father had invested him with at his birth in heaven. But during His stay in the grave do not be confused, He was a PRISONER in behalf of all mankind during the three days and three nights in the grave of Jonah. He was still suffering the wrath of God in the grave, still cut off from the Father.

"He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the Judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him. A strong guard of mighty angels kept watch over the tomb, and had a hand been raised to remove the body, the flashing forth of their glory would have laid him who ventured powerless on the earth. {5BC 1114.1}
There was only one entrance to the tomb, and neither human force nor fraud could tamper with the stone that guarded the entrance. Here Jesus rested during the Sabbath. But prophecy had pointed out that on the third day Christ would rise from the dead. Christ Himself had assured His disciples of this. “Destroy this temple,” He said, “and in three days I will raise it up.” Christ never committed sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. His body was to come forth from the tomb untarnished by corruption (Manuscript 94, 1897).{5BC 1114.2}

Notice how Mrs White was shown that "Prophecy had pointed out that on the third day Christ would rise from the dead"... The thoughts of the Father were made manifest through the mouth of His Son in heaven in the creation of man, and every word that ever came out of his mouth for us HAD to be fulfilled. Every word of prophecy is written in the fabric of eternity and cannot be thwarted, they MUST come true. To understand this IS faith.

So when God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit thought to make men in their image and laid the foundation or our universe, Jesus spoke the words in heaven that where made manifest through Him in His life on earth.

When in His triumphal entry into Jerusalem He said "if they were to stop shouting, the rocks would immediately begin where they left off" he meant that the words that He spoke in heaven, how He could divinely see it unfold before it happened, MUST come to pass.

So the fulfillment of Jesus being cut off from the Father was prophesied and must come to pass. This is how these things were accomplished, through the words of God made manifest on earth. Jesus as man was living out the life He had proposed and foresaw in heaven. Heaven is above space and time of our existence. God did not die when Jesus died as a man because Jesus is part of the Father.

I know this will be misunderstood, but it is a good lesson.

That's not the problem, asygo.

Nevermind that the Father called his Son from the grave - Jesus didn't use his divine power to give life for himself when he was dead. That discussion shouldn't really have been started.

For the cross of calvary to achieve salvation by God, who or what of worth sufficient to redeem us from death died on the tree? If, indeed, divinity did not die, then - if only humanity died - did God actually not die for us???

Remember when Jesus said "Father I wish that they were in me, as I am in THEE, that where I might be they might be also"?

How is it that Jesus was IN the Father?

How is it that we can be IN Christ while living on earth?

You might look at this and say what does it have to do with what I asked, but it has EVERYTHING to with it brother Colin.

Jesus came forth from the Father, His only Begotten Son.

This happened when the Father CONCEIVED the idea of making man. Jesus was born as the perfect illustration of God's love, and as the perfect contingency plan for men to be saved. Born of the Father without need of a mother until He came to earth as a man.

Jesus IS the Father made manifest to all of God's creation. He is perfectly in the Fathers heart. The only one permitted to be involved in everything the Father conceives together with His holy Spirit.

He became a separate entity after His birth in heaven, but in perfect harmony with the Father. God created everything through Him, then after His earthly birth He became the instrument through which men might be RECREATED.

Let me distill it to the bare minimum so there is no confusion:

So before we get into the meat of your question, do we agree that divinity did not die?

Brother Arnold,

I think by the way he worded his last statement, he did not fathom the concept that divinity did not die, even though Jesus, a part of God, did physically die here on earth.

Jesus is as much a part of God as His Father. He's a complete and separate entity from the Father, but connected by inheritance, and through the Spirit, another complete and separate entity of the Godhead.

Jesus is the perfect Son because no mother was needed. I see it kind of like a form of divine Mitosis. One cell becoming two, then Jesus became two in the Holy Spirit, and the Godhead was complete. Perfectly in the same form and wonder of God but individually connected all three together, Then THEY started creating.

The Father shared everything with the Son and the Holy Spirit, they could all see the thoughts of each other symbiotically. They are in harmony and peace together. Jesus is the audible thoughts of the Father and the Holy Spirit empowered the angels etc and so on...

Now the other component of this equation is Jesus as a man.

Men are constrained by the laws of our universe, Time and space, birth and most importantly the 10 commandments. Jesus subjected Himself to these laws with our fallen nature, to become one of us fully without the use of His Godhead powers though they were still there for Him because He was fully God. He only used what is for us to use.

Angels were at His command and kept Him from sinking into the sea.

Then beyond this, He was subjected to being judged by the same laws that we are judged by. As a human He was recorded in the BOOK of remembrance, the complete record of our every thought and deed while on earth that serves as a testimony either for or against us in heaven.

This is for another debate but I believe that Jesus was His own redeemer because He became a man. He willingly subjected Himself to be under all of our laws, and put Himself on the line even as God.

He could have failed and sinned, and would be subject to His own demise. But through resistance to evil He overcame our wicked natures and was perfected as a man, learning to love even more than He did perfectly in heaven, in fulfillment to what the Father showed Him would happen while still up there before He came as a baby.

By overcoming, He became our representative at the tribunal in heaven when that book is opened and each of our cases are brought up. He is seen in Revelation as the Lamb that was slain, worthy to open the book.

So in this is where I see what you are looking for.

Jesus came as a man, but even though He was fully part of the Godhead, if He would have sinned He could have died as God, but because He didn't sin, His divine nature was preserved un-defiled, and this gave Him the right to carry our sins for us.

Jesus took our sins upon Himself, He carried them, and took responsibility of them upon Himself but was still innocent and this preserved His divine nature from defilement. If Jesus did sin do you think He could have went back to heaven?

When Jesus died for our sins spiritually in Gethsemane, even the Divine part of Jesus allowed Himself to be cut off from the Father and this was His greatest test. He made it through the test without losing His Faith in His Father to get Him through, so He said, "But not my will be done, let it be your will Father" so even in this He did not sin while being punished for our sins.

The divinity of Jesus could not die but proposed to stay in the prison of the earth for three days and three nights cut off from the Father. How this was accomplished we will only know if He tells us in heaven.

Here are some interesting clues...

"Suddenly the gloom lifted from the cross, and in clear, trumpetlike tones, that seemed to resound throughout creation, Jesus cried, “It is finished.” “Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit.” A light encircled the cross, and the face of the Saviour shone with a glory like the sun. He then bowed His head upon His breast, and died. {DA 756.2}

Notice, He commended HIS Spirit to the Father. Then the Face of Jesus shone like the sun, then the humanity of Jesus died.

Now what you are asking is, if divinity couldn't die then how did Jesus die if He is divine? Was He in heaven sipping a smoothie and watching His body die? No way!

The divine part of Jesus was as tormented as His human part, cut off from the Father, but when He commended His spirit to the Father, something happened there, but it was not a death of His divinity.

I know He was not seen by the Father even in divinity until the resurrection and He appeared to the Father just after talking with Marry after His resurrection... so the divinity must have remained with the body of Jesus, and this is why His body did not begin to decompose and stink. He was dead as a man but alive as God cut off from the Father, waiting in the "prison house" of the grave.

"The women who had been Christ’s humble followers while He lived would not leave Him until they saw Him laid in the tomb and a stone of great weight placed before the door, lest His enemies should seek to obtain His body. But they need not have feared; for I saw that the angelic host watched with untold interest in the resting place of Jesus, earnestly waiting for the command to act their part in liberating the King of glory from His prison house.—Early Writings, 180 (1882). {DG 71.1}

Jesus the divine was in that prison house, not sitting in heaven waiting for His body to be resurrected.

You mentioned some things that I have been mulling over for a while. Sadly, I don't have time to delve into them now, except for this one:

If Jesus sinned, the SOP tells us that God's wrath would have fallen on Him as it did upon Adam. But would He have been subject to eternal death as Adam was?

Sin separates us from God, our source of life. Without life from God, we die. That's why sin brings death and life is only promised to the obedient.

However, Jesus has life in Himself. Even completely separated from the Father, He has life. So what happens when there is an immortal, omnipotent sinner? Would Satan triumph because he proved that even God Himself cannot obey? Would Satan be dethroned by a more powerful sinner? Would there be an eternal war between Father and Son? I'm not sure, but every scenario I imagine makes me shudder.

The thought of it makes me marvel even more at what was risked in order to redeem us.

Thanks, jsot, for looking at my question and rationale: as it happens, I do fathom the immortality and self-existence of divinity, thank you. Yes, asygo, I recall that divine nature cannot die.

Did God then actually die for us and our sins, or not???

While Jesus lived and died as a man, righteous by faith, his divinity could not die for not being mortal. He, being the only begotten, actual Son of God, died as a human. Technically, being divine, unless God's Son became a man he could not die for sinners, so, praise the Lord, the humiliation of the self-existent Son of God, worthy of worship with his Father, to become a man is glorious.

That last quote (DG 71.1) says the King of glory needed to be raised from the dead. When Jesus died for us, he died as a man and as the Son of God: being the Son of God, it was he who died, not his divinity. The King of glory died as a man; he whose identity is the Son of God, the Creator, died for his people and become one of us to do so.

Why do I raise this question, at all?

It's because any trinity doctrine fumbles this question: since the orthodox (Nicene) and SDA doctrines fail to secure the Son's personal identity next to his Father the Eternal God. In fact personal identities aren't real for any members of the Godhead, as we term it: labels and figurative meanings of 'Father', 'Son' and 'Holy Spirit', it's vague at best, mystical and unbiblical at worst.

Avoiding such personal ambiguities is what the Bible & SOP do ...and our church used to do, by being non-trinitarian in holding Jesus to be the actual Son of God, as jsot has spoken of: this secures the Gospel truth of God's Son dying for us. Amen.

God's wrath did fall on Him, but not for His own sins... for three days and three nights Jesus was cut off from the Father, beginning in Gethsemane.

“…Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God's law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law”.
EGW (2nd death)

If Jesus truly came here as a man, if He fell, He would have been subjected to His own laws and could not have redeemed men so He would have to be destroyed in the same fires that would destroy us in the second death BUT He did not sin, so He was permitted to suffer our second death for all of us to pay the penalty for our sins even though He had not sinned. This is where His divine nature was most important; the moment after He had successfully fended off the temptation from Satan in the Garden of Gethsemane to let men die for themselves when the sins of the world were rolled upon His head, He could not call His divinity to His aid but the fact that He had not tarnished His divine nature, an angel came to His aid and this gave Him endurance. The same as the 144,000 will experience after the end of probation.

“Jesus with his disciples now left the upper chamber, and crossed the brook Kedron. Sorrow and anguish again pressed heavily upon his heart…It was not a dread of the physical suffering he was soon to endure that brought this agony upon the Son of God. He was enduring the penalty of man's transgression and shuddering beneath the Father's frown. He must not call his divinity to his aid, but as a man, he must bear the consequences of man's sin and the Creator's displeasure toward his disobedient subjects. As he felt his unity with the Father broken up, he feared that his human nature would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the prince of the power of darkness; and in that case the human race would be irrecoverably lost, Satan would be victor, and the earth would be his kingdom. The sins of the world weighed heavily upon the Savior, and bowed him to the earth; and the Father's anger in consequence of that sin seemed crushing out his life… Having made the decision and reached the final crisis, he fell in a dying condition to the earth from which he had partially risen. Where now were his disciples, to place their hands tenderly beneath the head of their fainting Master, and bathe that brow, marred indeed more than the sons of men? The Savior trod the winepress alone, and of all the people there was none with him. And yet he was not alone. He had said, "I and my Father are one." God suffered with his Son. Man cannot comprehend the sacrifice made by the infinite God in giving up his Son to reproach, agony, and death. This is the evidence of the Father's boundless love to man…The angels who did Christ's will in Heaven were anxious to comfort him; but it was beyond their power to alleviate his sorrow. They had never felt the sins of a ruined world, and they beheld with astonishment the object of their adoration subject to a grief beyond all expression. Though the disciples had failed to sympathize with their Lord in the trying hour of his conflict, all Heaven was full of sympathy and waiting the result with painful interest. When it was finally determined, an angel was sent from the throne of God to minister unto the stricken Redeemer… The disciples were suddenly aroused from their slumber by a bright light shining upon and around the Son of God. They started up in amazement, and beheld a heavenly being, clothed in garments of light, bending over their prostrate Master. With his right hand he lifted the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and with his left hand he pointed toward Heaven. His voice was like the sweetest music, as he uttered soothing words presenting to the mind of Christ the grand results of the victory he had gained over the strong and wily foe. Christ was victor over Satan; and, as the result of his triumph, millions were to be victors with him in his glorified kingdom.
{5Red 21.1}

THIS IS BEFORE THE CROSS IN GETHSEMANE AND BEGINS HIS THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS IN THE HELL WE DESERVE! (I will go to my grave with this excitement)

But brother Colin, God goes to extreme lengths to say that He is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, it is not figurative in the least.

In fact it is as literal as the seven days of the creation process.

I agree they all have literal identities.

It's the (trinity doctrine) notion that they're figurative labels that I disagree with.

The death of Jesus for us was made possible by his incarnation, and he took our sinful, degraded flesh to become a man, but he never let corruption of sinning rest on him, forcing his sinful flesh to render perfect obedience to God his Father and our Father. Amen

Thank you for clarifying this point.



You are very close to the truth but one point is missing here.

The death of Jesus was only possible AFTER He became sin for us.

He did not receive the sins of the world until the night of His betrayal when He left the Upper room, then the Eastern gate and crossed the brook Kidron. Then He started to stumble under the weight of sin.

Here is an amazing point.

It was IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to die, unless He committed sin Himself or made it through His trials so He could receive our sins like prophecy foretold.

This point is proven in His 40 Days and nights of not drinking any water or eating any food, from earth or heaven.

He ate nothing, He had no water bottle, no food, no shelter from the heat in the desert AND most importantly He had no angel food, until He made it through His trial. Then the angels came and ministered to Him.

The point is, this proved that He was God, because no created being could endure that much deprivation without angels to support them. Moses was taken to the heaven to fast 40 days and nights when He went on the mount. Jesus was in a desert with no shelter. Most men would die in three days under these conditions. Jesus felt the hunger but it was impossible for Him to die because He had not sinned in His thirty years before that day. This was His test to prove He is God.

If Jesus had sinned even in thought before that time He would have died like the rest of us. But this began His ministry on earth, and revealed to the fallen world that He had come.

Now for three and a half years He spent teaching men how to live like Him...then, He was tempted again.

Satan threw everything at Him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He tormented Him with the thought that His Father could never accept Him back into heaven because He had received our sins upon His head, and He chose to do it anyway!

This is how much our God loves us. He was tempted beyond anything we will ever see, and He survived unscathed.

The perfect love of the Father grows through His Son. Perfection grows and we are to be the benefactors.

The test that we are about to go through will prove what side we are on. Father, please empower us in your love through the perfect name and spotless character of your Son, our Savior. Amen.