Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?

It has been a general concept that at lest most of these 24 elders rose from the dead at the time of the resurrection of Christ, and that they were taken to heaven as representing the children of God on earth, and also as witnesses in the vindication of God in teh final judgment.

Have any of you seen a solid Scriptural verification for a different understanding?

Seems like I heard Stephen B give a presentation that concluded that they were from unfallen worlds. He cited Spirit of Prophecy, but I did not check all his references at the time.

Who are the 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?

You can use different sources, online or offline, along with the Bible to substantiate your responses.

I did. At the time he was giving that lecture, I had the book,
'Desire of Ages' on my lap and looked up his referrences. They
are NOT in there. He had the text posted on a screen with parens
showing what he wanted them to say. Llke, "the 24 elders (Aliens)"..etc... I turned him off.

How about Gen 6:2 or Hosea 2:1?

Would sons be elders?

Could they be the same as the sons of God meeting in Job?

Re 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Are all references to sons of God the same or could they apply differently?

Not sure what you meant by Hosea 2:1...

You might want to watch and listen to this by Pastor Stephen Bohr:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jrldoWoZKFI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Are all references to sons of God the same or could they apply differently?

There is a link to a paper but it seems hugely condensed and changed from what I remember it being earlier.

Link to Steve Bohr's paper on the 24 elders.
.


This quote I didn't see which I know was in his original:

There is the throne (Rev 4:2), and around it the rainbow of promise (Rev 4:3). There are cherubim and seraphim (Rev 4:6-8). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (Rev 4:4, 10). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, therepresentatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 832.15}

According to the Spirit of Prophecy, the 24 elders are powerful angels to whom God as delegated the responsibility of being representatives of the worlds that never sinned. Notice the following statements:

“This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" [verse 4]. The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly, said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" [verse 5].” Manuscript Releases, volume 12, pp. 296, 297

In its original Biblical context the words of verse 5 are spoken by one of the twenty-four elders but Ellen White identifies the elder as ‘one of the strong angels.’

Conclusion: Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam who was the legitimate representative of the planet. He usurped Adam’s rightful throne. This is the reason why Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31). When Adam chose to obey Satan, he became Satan’s subject for we are subjects of the master whom we choose to obey (Romans 6:16)

For additional evidence that the universe is governed by a heavenly council see 2 Chronicles 18:18-22.

That's the same one that I downloaded.

The fact that his video series on this is now private tells me that he must have changed his thinking regarding who makes up the 24 Elders.

This quote I didn't see which I know was in his original:

There is the throne (Rev 4:2), and around it the rainbow of promise (Rev 4:3). There are cherubim and seraphim (Rev 4:6-8). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (Rev 4:4, 10). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, therepresentatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 832.15}

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}

According to the link to Pastor Stephen Bohr's written material, quoted below, the 24 Elders are representatives of all the inhabited planets:

Why is that the only conclusion to be made? Looks like if he changed his mind, he would just remove it completely and there would be no evidence it ever existed. Or, just change the video with no comment and no one would be the wiser.

Who can access private videos, why would changing his mind still allow some to access it? I'm just suggesting to get all the facts before concluding things which may not be true.

Key points:
1.The morning stars and sons of God existed BEFORE creation. See Job 38:1-7
&#9702;The stars are angels (Rev 12:3, 9)
&#9702;The sons of God are kings of their planets - worlds (Job 1:6, 7)
--1.They do not always live where God is
--2.Satan came along with them showing he is their peer or contemporary
--3.Satan came representing planet earth (implying the sons of God represent other planets)

2.Satan was among the sons of God because he believed the earth was given to him (Luke 4:5-6)
&#9702;When Adam obeyed Satan, Satan became his master and Adam his slave (Romans 6:16)

3.The universe is ruled by a council. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4:1-7 (use NKJV)

4.Adam is an original son of God (Luke 3:38, Patriarchs & Prophets page 45)

5.The king is crowned and given his territory (Psalm 8:3-5; Review & Herald, Feb 24, 1874)
Who are the 24 elders?
---1.The are seated on thrones (not seats as the KJV said. Same Greek word is used for God's throne)
---2.They are clothed in white raiment
---3.They have crowns on their heads
---4.In the Desire of Ages pages 833 - 835 they are identified as the sons of God - the representatives of the unfallen worlds.


A Process of Elimination (who they are not)

* They are not cherubim and seraphim because they are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10)
* They are not part of the angelic hosts because they are distinguished from them (5:12) and they are in heaven before the angelic hosts arrive (Revelation 4)
* They are not members of the unnumbered host of the redeemed because one of the elders asks John who the great multitude from every nation, kindred, people and tongue is (Revelation 7:13) Significantly the elders sing about the redeemed “from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9) and in Revelation 7 one of the elders is asked about the identity of those who belong to all nations, and kindreds, and people and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9)

* They are not part of the 144,000 because they 144,000 are distinguished from them (Revelation 14:3)
* They are not those who resurrect in the special resurrection (Daniel 12:2) because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (Revelation 4)
* They are not those who will resurrect in the general resurrection because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (I Thessalonians 4:15-17)
* They are not those who resurrected with Jesus because the twenty-four elders were already there before Jesus arrived (Revelation 4)
* So they are not angelic and they are not human. They must be some other order of being.

The timing of Revelation 4 and 5
1.Revelation 4 shows the throne room of God BEFORE Jesus returns from earth after His crucifixion

2.Revelation 5 shows the Father with the scroll with seven seals. This is seen as the title deed to earth.

&#9702; An interesting Old Testament parallel is in 2 Kings 11 where Athaliah murdered the kings sons and usurped the throne for six years. (Note that Satan murdered the King's sons and ruled earth for 6000 years). In the seventh year (verse 4) the high priest manoeuvres to get the baby son who was hidden (Satan tried to kill Jesus as a baby but He was hidden) to be crowned as king. Here is the record:

&#9702;And he brought out the king's son, put the crown on him, and gave him the Testimony; they made him king and anointed him, and they clapped their hands and said, “Long live the king!” (2 Kings 11:12)

&#9702;Note that he was given the testimony as required.
&#9632;Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
&#9632;Deuteronomy 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

3.Revelation 5 shows that initially no one was worthy to take the scroll - the title deed to earth. Then later Jesus, the Lamb that was slain, was shown to be worthy. Then He came and took the scroll and began to open the seals. The first seal showed the victorious years of the apostolic age.

4.Revelation 4 is thus before the ascension of Jesus (and at His anointing in Heaven as High Priest the anointing oil was so plentiful it fell down all the way to the disciples [who were in one accord - harmony] at Pentecost. Psalms 133:1-3 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.)

5.The 24 elders were waiting on Jesus with the 4 living creatures (beasts) who are seraphim, for they have six wings. With the Father, this is the heavenly council.

6.KJV, NKJV had problem with translation of Revelation 5:8-10 (us, we)
&#9702;KJV: Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

&#9702;This mistranslation is corrected in reputable modern versions:

Revelation 5:9-10 (New International Version)
“And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."”

Revelation 5:9-10 (New American Standard)
“And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."”

So it seems clear that the 24 elders are angels.

Whether the 24 elders has been refuted is one thing. But another is the sons of God in Job. Have sons of God ever been used to refer to angels?

I think the term "sons of God" could be applied to any of God's intelligent creatures, but, in fact, I haven't yet seen the term applied to the inhabitants of other worlds. According to the Hebrew parallelism, it would be natural to interpret "morning stars" and "sons of God" as synonyms, and "star" is a symbol used to describe angels in other biblical passages.

EGW says the angels are sons of God (ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3).

There is but one way of escape for the sinner. There is but one agency whereby he may be cleansed from sin. He must accept the propitiation that has been made by the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world. The shed blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}

Specifically about Job 38:7, she says:

Before the creation of man, angels were in existence; for when the foundations of the earth were laid, “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” Job 38:7. {TA 9.2}

Angelic agencies, though invisible, are cooperating with visible human agencies, forming a relief association with men. ... The very angels who shouted for joy over the creation of our world and over the creation of our first parents to inhabit the earth, ... these very heavenly messengers are most intensely interested to work in union with the fallen, redeemed race for the salvation of human beings perishing in their sins. {HP 102.3}

At the creation, when the foundations of the earth were laid, the sons of God looked with admiration upon the work of the Creator, and all the heavenly host shouted for joy. It was then that the foundation of the Sabbath was laid. {EW 217.2}

Those who accept him as their Saviour, their Redeemer, the Prince of Life, he acknowledges before the heavenly host, before the worlds unfallen, and before the fallen world, as his peculiar treasure. {GCB, April 1, 1899 par. 5}

The angels and the holy inhabitants of other worlds watch with intense interest the events taking place on this earth. Now as the close of the great controversy between Christ and Satan draws near, the heavenly host behold men trampling upon the law of Jehovah, making void the memorial of God,--the sign between Him and His commandment-keeping people,--setting it aside as a thing of naught, something to be despised, while the rival sabbath is exalted. They see men claiming to be Christians, calling upon the world to observe this spurious sabbath that they have made. {ST, February 22, 1910 par. 3}

The Sabbath was instituted in Eden before the fall, and was observed by Adam and Eve, and all the heavenly host. God rested on the seventh day, and blessed and hallowed it. I saw that the Sabbath never will be done away; but that the redeemed saints, and all the angelic host, will observe it in honor of the great Creator to all eternity. {EW 217.2}

I may be missing something, but I read in my Bible that the 24 elders state that they will reign as priests and kings on Earth. Rev.5:10.

10. Us. Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “them,” with reference to the redeemed of v. 9. The reading “us” was probably taken by the KJV translators from the Latin Vulgate. It is thus evident that in v. 10 the ones speaking do not specifically include themselves as “kings and priests.” It is not impossible, however, that they may be speaking of themselves in the third person, but this is not the natural conclusion to which the reading of the ancient manuscripts points. According to the preferred reading vs. 9, 10 may be translated as follows: “Thou art worthy to take the book and to open its seals, because thou wast slain and didst purchase to God by thy blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and didst make them to our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign upon the earth” (see below under “kings” and “we shall reign”). The kingdom is doubtless the spiritual kingdom of grace (see on Matt. 4:17; 5:3; Rev. 1:6).

Kings. Textual evidence favors (cf. p. 10) the reading “a kingdom” (see on ch. 1:6).

We shall reign. Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “they shall reign” (see above under “us”).

I've found a passage in which EGW refers to the "sons of God" of Job 1 as angels:

The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them (Job 1:6), not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous. With the same object he is in attendance when men assemble for the worship of God. {DD 5.4}

So, can we infer that the angels, at least some of them, are required to present themselves before the Lord and are not always before the Lord?

Is there anything that other created non-angel beings could be referred to as angels? Ellen White refers to the unfallen. But could she also include them with angels?

I find it improbable that the inhabitants of other worlds would be referred to as "angels," but I will not take a radical position on this.

The Four and Twenty Elders.-- Who are these beings who surround the throne of glory? It will be observed that they are clothed in white raiment and have on their heads crowns of gold, which are tokens of both a conflict completed and a victory gained. From this we conclude that they were once participants in the Christian warfare, they once trod the earthly way with all saints; but they have been overcomers, and in advance of the great multitude of the redeemed, are wearing their victor crowns in the heavenly world. Indeed, they plainly tell us this in the song of praise which they ascribe to the Lamb: "They sung a new song, saying, Thou are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Rev_5:9. This song is sung before any of the events in the prophecy of the seven seals take place; for it is sung to set forth the worthiness of the Lamb to take the book and to open the seals, on the ground of what He had already accomplished--their redemption. It is not therefore thrown in here by anticipation, having its application in the future, but it expresses an absolute and finished fact in the history of those who sang it. These, then, were a class of redeemed persons--redeemed from this earth, redeemed as all others must be redeemed, by the precious blood of Christ.

Do we in any other place read of such a class of redeemed ones? We think Paul refers to the same company when he writes to the Ephesians thus: "Wherefore He saith, When He [Christ] ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." The marginal reading is He led a "multitude of captives." Eph_4:8. Going back to the events that occurred in connection with the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ, we read: "The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Mat_27:52-53. Thus the answer to our question comes unmistakably from the sacred page. These are some of those who came out of their graves at the resurrection of Christ, and who were numbered with the illustrious multitude which Jesus led up from the captivity of Death's dark domain when He ascended in triumph on high. Matthew records their resurrection, Paul their ascension, and John beholds them in heaven, performing the sacred duties which they were raised up to accomplish.

In this view we are not alone. John Wesley spoke as follows concerning the four and twenty elders: " 'Clothed in white raiment'--This and their golden crowns show that they had already finished their course, and taken their places among the citizens of heaven. They are never termed souls, and hence it is probable that they had glorified bodies already. Compare Mat_27:52." [1]

Particular attention must be given to the fact that the four and twenty elders are said to be seated on thrones. Our translation reads "seats;" but the Greek is {GREEK CHARACTERS IN PRINTED TEXT}, thronoi, thrones, the same word as is used three times in verses 2 and 3 and once in verse 4 immediately preceding. Thus the Revised Version reads "Round about the throne were four and twenty thrones, and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting." Consequently this passage throws light on the expressions found in Dan_7:9, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down." These are the same thrones, and as has been shown in comments upon that passage, the meaning is not that the thrones were overturned, or cast down, in the ordinary sense of that expression, but placed, or set. The figure is taken from the Eastern custom of placing mats or divans for distinguished guests to sit upon. These four and twenty elders (see comments on Revelation 5) are evidently assistants of Christ in His mediatorial work in the sanctuary on high. When the judgment scene described in Dan_7:9 began in the most holy place, their thrones were placed there, according to the testimony of that passage.

Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “them,” with reference to the redeemed of v. 9. The reading “us” was probably taken by the KJV translators from the Latin Vulgate. It is thus evident that in v. 10 the ones speaking do not specifically include themselves as “kings and priests.”

It just doesn't seem right to think of the 24 elders as angels. That is a relative new idea.

They seem to be Priests -- with censors and incense.

Angels don't grow old. So it seems strange to have elder angels.

The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ.

The Saviour was presented to John under the symbols of the “Lion of the tribe of Juda,” and “a Lamb as it had been slain.” Here the whole work of redemption was expressed. These symbols represent the union of omnipotent power and self-sacrificing love. As the Lion of Judah, Christ will defend His chosen ones and bring them off victorious, because they accepted Him as “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Christ the slain Lamb—who was despised, rejected, the victim of Satan’s wrath, of human abuse and cruelty—how tender was His sympathy with His people who were in the world! And according to the infinite depths of His humiliation and sacrifice as the Lamb of God will be His power in glory as the Lion of Judah, for the deliverance of His people. {CTr 315.2}
To John were opened the great events of the future that were to shake the thrones of kings and cause all earthly powers to tremble. He beheld the close of all earthly scenes, the ushering in of His reign who is to be King of kings, and whose kingdom shall endure forever.... He saw Christ receiving the adoration of all the hosts of heaven and heard the promise that whatever tribulation might come upon God’s people, if they would but patiently endure they should be more than conquerors through Him that loved them.... {CTr 315.3}
John was now prepared to witness the thrilling scenes in the great conflict between those who keep the commandments of God and those who make void His law. He saw the wonder-working power arise that was to deceive all who should dwell upon the earth who were not connected with God, “saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.”... {CTr 315.4}

SDABC on Rev. 5:10:

Michael the Arch angel is Jesus Christ Himself

Your thought in this area, kland, appeal to me.

The Sabbath was instituted in Eden before the fall, and was observed by Adam and Eve, and all the heavenly host. God rested on the seventh day, and blessed and hallowed it. I saw that the Sabbath never will be done away; but that the redeemed saints, and all the angelic host, will observe it in honor of the great Creator to all eternity. {EW 217.2}

Well, it does throw some issues Rosangela's way....

Angels are created beings.
Christ is an Arch angel.
Therefore, Christ must be a created being.

And there is still the issue I did not see she addressed by the exclusive implication: [EW 217.2 quoted] then would this mean other worlds do not and will not observe the Sabbath?

Pastor Johann, I have the utmost respect and admiration for men like you, who have dedicated their whole lives to the service of God. But, as I said, we do not all see eye to eye, so please forgive me if I at some moment disagree with something you say. Having worked for some time at a White Estate branch, and having verified the differing views of our pioneers and of Ellen White on some subjects, my view is that, when what they say diffes from what she says, I stay with what she says.

I'm not following you, kland. In the Bible, both in the OT and in the NT, the meaning of the word translated as "angel" is "messenger." So Jesus Christ is the Chief Messenger. Why does He have to be a created being?

"When Jesus, as he hung upon the cross, cried out, It is finished, the rocks rent, the earth shook, and some of the graves where shaken open; for when Jesus arose from the dead,... many of the righteous dead came forth as witnesses that he had risen. Those favored, resurrected saints came forth glorified. They were a few chosen and holy ones who had lived in every age from creation, even down to the days of Christ.
" Those who were resurrected were of different stature and form....Some of those raised were more noble in appearance and form than others. I was informed that those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham were more like the angels in form, in comeliness and strength." {Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1 pages 69-70}

Kland's rather "tongue in check" comments stirs the thought that --
Christ is called an Archangel, but He is NOT one of created heavenly angels.
The elder is called a strong angel -- a strong messenger? or one of the heavenly angels?

Any wonder that Ellen White could call that elder an engel?

Can we therefore safely discard those novel ideas of Stephen Bohr?

Are these two comments not in opposition?

In my estimation they support each other. You may have missed the point where EGW stated that some of the elders who had lived on earth at the time of the patriarchs had the appearance like angels.

But Dedication, it's EGW who refers to them as angels. So the idea isn't in fact new, although it may be new for almost all of us who hadn't noticed these passages before.


Rev. 8:3-5 shows an angel with a censer and incense.


But do human beings in heaven grow old? I think the term refers more to a position than to age.


I don't think this must necessarily be the case. They might have been assigned to help Christ in a special work, like His mediation and the IJ.

People can have the appearance like angels.
I thought Bohr was saying the elders were people of other planets.
What am I missing?

I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.


His whole presentation is now VERY confusing.

I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.

My memory may be fuzzy, but those quotes about angels were not in his original study. They have been added later making the study a rather mixed up unclear presentation.

When I read his study a few years ago it was logical and clear, now it's full of contradictions.
Some of the old information is still there, but the new "angel" quotes are mixed in.

For example --
In one place he says: The 24 elders are powerful angels assigned by God to be representatives of worlds that never sinned.

Then he proves that Adam was the "son of God", the representative of this world.

then he writes:
The 24 elders are not cherubim nor seraphim because these two groups are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10)
They are not part of the angelic hosts because the angelic hosts are clearly distinguished from them.



His whole presentation is now VERY confusing.
Is Adam an Angel?
From His study one could easily come to that conclusion that he was.

I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.

Is seems safer to base one's views on something that is not confusing.

When I read his study a few years ago it was logical and clear, now it's full of contradictions.
Some of the old information is still there, but the new "angel" quotes are mixed in.

For example --

The only logical bridge I can see between these two ideas, is that created beings from unfallen worlds look very much like the angels.

"When Jesus, as he hung upon the cross, cried out, It is finished, the rocks rent, the earth shook, and some of the graves where shaken open; for when Jesus arose from the dead,... many of the righteous dead came forth as witnesses that he had risen. Those favored, resurrected saints came forth glorified. They were a few chosen and holy ones who had lived in every age from creation, even down to the days of Christ.
" Those who were resurrected were of different stature and form....Some of those raised were more noble in appearance and form than others. I was informed that those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham were more like the angels in form, in comeliness and strength." {Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1 pages 69-70}

I always thought the 24 Elders were the the resurrected/translated redeemed, which could include Enoch, Elijah, and Moses.

Yes, 1a) of living beings is a definition of a 'Strong Angel' so can be a living being, so there is no problem with one of the 24 elders being a 'Strong Angel'.

Strong's #2478: ischuros (pronounced is-khoo-ros')


from 2479; forcible (literally or figuratively):--boisterous, mighty(-ier), powerful, strong(-er, man), valiant.





Thayer's Greek Lexicon:


&#787;&#769;


ischuros


1) strong, mighty


1a) of living beings


1a1) strong either in body or in mind

1a2) of one who has strength of soul to sustain the attacks of Satan, strong and therefore exhibiting many excellences


1b) on inanimate things


1b1) strong, violent, forcibly uttered, firm, sure


Part of Speech: adjective

Relation: from G2479

Citing in TDNT: 3:397, 378



Read more: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G2478/ischuros.htm#ixzz2KfLhyXUN

In reality I think this quotation by EGW is the key to understand this question.

" Those who were resurrected were of different stature and form....Some of those raised were more noble in appearance and form than others. I was informed that those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham were more like the angels in form, in comeliness and strength."

With this in mind I see no reason why the 24 elders should not be those who were resurrected with Christ, and since some of them looked like angels, there is no discrepancy by EGW also using the term "angel" for the one who comforted John.

My conclusion is therefore still that at least some of the 24 elders were resurrected at the time of the resurrection of Christ.

I recognize many of the statements in what is posted now:
http://secretsunsealed.org/Downloads/24Eldersweb.pdf

but those quotes about angel's, and that angels were delegated to be representatives of the unfallen worlds, I don't remember any of that in the original study.

It is those quotes which he has now put into the study that cause the confusion.
For now part of the study seems to be saying the 24 elders are angels, while the rest of the study is still saying it is the first created from unfallen worlds.

The statement we have is, "those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham were more like the angels in form, in comeliness and strength."

Are you talking about something else?

Everything the high priest was responsible for in the temple are the duties of the Elder of each planet.

The unfallen Adams do not need redemption so that area of High priestly ministry is not a part of their duties nut the communication for their people. They present the prayers of their saints.

Just as the incense of the merits of Christ righteousness ascend to the Father by the hand of Jesus in the temple for us, so the Elders offer their peoples prayers directly through to the Father in the name of Jesus, their relationship unbroken.

"the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people"

Like the Father of every family is the priest of their family so are the 24 Elders the elders of their race and they present the prayers of their people to the Father.

God created multiple Universes as a contingency plan to keep sin from contaminating or disrupting unfallen worlds.

He created separate Universes to quarantine Evil from Good. The Garden of Eden is where all the universes come together so they can all eat from the tree of life.

The theory of multiple Universes is so accepted in the world of Physics I'm surprised you have not read about it.

The theory I am partial to is the "Bubble Universe" theory and I believe it is connected to the Wheel within a wheel vision of Ezekiel.

The center would be where the New Jerusalem is in my imagination

You have not shown WHY unfallen beings need to pray, when they have direct and constant access to God.

The unfallen worlds are still under probation until Satan is destroyed.

Demons still hang out at the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil and all of those people are still being tested.

Adam was created under probation thus the test of the tree.

The tree is still accessible to the unfallen worlds but they are horrified by what Satan did to the Son of God and will have nothing to do with the tree. Satan was effectually thrown out of heaven when he crucified Jesus, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has not dried up yet.

Do you get it?

Also, I never mentioned anything about dark matter and I also do not believe it is a valid scientific concept, but to a degree there is adaptive evolution so that whole science is not mute.

The reasoning goes thus:

The view of early Seventh-day Adventist writers concerning 24 elders was that they were among resurrected with Christ and were taken to heaven with Him at His ascension.

Since these resurrected ones included people who lived prior to Noah as well as in the time of Abraham these would be "more like the angels in form..."

So when EGW was SHOWN (visual vision) one of the elders explaining things to John, she discribed him as a "mighty angel" because that is what he looked like.

But how does that exclude those on other planets from looking even more like angels who have not been resurrected since they never sinned?

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

But Johann, the 24 elders hold the golden censers of their worlds...
The 24 elders are the created son's of God, the elders of their planets who offer the prayers of their saints through the golden censer given to each ADAM like creature.

Where does this idea originate, and where is the support for it?

I can find it neither in Scripture nor EGW's writtings, so it is clearly neither biblical nor SDA.

Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels?

Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels?

Every one of the children of God has an angel. Ok (although I'm not sure about this in relation to the unfallen beings).
But I'm confused about the representatives of the worlds, or created Adams, as you refer to them. Do you mean that they have "strong angels" or that they are the "strong angels"? In case they are the "strong angels" do they also have an angel?

Go, run with it Kland,

Notice the structure of this sentence in Desire of Ages.

"The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled".

The way this sentence is structured is saying that these attributes are all part of the same beings. These are the 24 elders. This is what MY GOD has shown me. I will go to the grave teaching this.

Each are the CREATED Son's of God like Adam was.

Each are the representatives of their unfallen worlds like Adam was. So Adam must have been one of the 24 elders before his fall.

(I do not know if the number is literal but I believe it is)

Now there's a thought. Before sin did each have an angel? If so, would that angel(s) not be with them? So if the 24 elders came to this periodic meeting of accounting in Job, would not their angels be with them? And then one could easily speak of the angels of god presenting themselves and also include the 24 elder representatives?

"There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim (The angels; period). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (The 24 elders, period). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer (both groups= the council; period). They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King." {DA 834.1}
But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails."

"He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, “It is finished,” He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, “I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am.” John 19:30; 17:24. {DA 834.2}
The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished. Christ’s toiling, struggling ones on earth are “accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:6. Before the heavenly angels and the representatives of unfallen worlds (Both groups of the heavenly council), they are declared justified. Where He is, there His church shall be. “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” Psalm 85:10. The Father’s arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” Hebrews 1:6. {DA 834.3}
With joy unutterable, rulers and principalities and powers acknowledge the supremacy of the Prince of life. The angel host prostrate themselves before Him, while the glad shout fills all the courts of heaven, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.” Revelation 5:12. {DA 834.4}

'Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they (all three groups, with special emphasis on the 144,000 who sing the new song) sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.' {Revelation 5:5-13}

"As the ransomed ones are welcomed to the City of God, there rings out upon the air an exultant cry of adoration. The two Adams are about to meet. The Son of God is standing with outstretched arms to receive the father of our race—the being whom He created, who sinned against his Maker, and for whose sin the marks of the crucifixion are borne upon the Saviour’s form. As Adam discerns the prints of the cruel nails, he does not fall upon the bosom of his Lord, but in humiliation casts himself at His feet, crying: “Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain!” Tenderly the Saviour lifts him up and bids him look once more upon the Eden home from which he has so long been exiled. {GC 647.2}

Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man’s behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him—that He might bring many sons unto glory—that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: “Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages.” And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.” Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God’s justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Before the fall of Satan, the Father consulted his Son in regard to the formation of man. They purposed to make this world, and create beasts and living things upon it, and to make man in the image of God, to reign as a ruling monarch over every living thing which God should create. When Satan learned the purpose of God, he was envious at Christ, and jealous because the Father had not consulted him in regard to the creation of man. Satan was of the highest order of angels; but Christ was above all. He was the commander of all Heaven.

"He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. {1SP 18.2}

Parents, take this lesson home, and in the place of educating your children in the path of self-indulgence, self-gratification, and disobedience, learn of Abraham. Abraham commanded his household and his children after him to keep the way of the Lord. The Searcher of hearts said of him, “I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment.” O for wise and judicious commanders, who will walk in the way of the Lord as did Abraham, to deal justly and love mercy, who will despise every phase of falsehood and deception! Abraham walked in the counsel of God. He did not rule by oppression, neither was he controlled by blind passion. He made straight paths for his feet, lest the lame should be turned out of the way; and God blessed him, and made him a blessing. {RH April 6, 1897, par. 7}