To the Law and to the Testimony

May I add a thought here? It is good that Jak seeks the meaning of “good”. I want to quote this text from Young’s translation as it brings the full wordings of the original manuscript.
“YLT Ja 1:17 every good giving, and every perfect gift is from above;”

The text talks about a “good giving”. When children receive treats or toys, they see these as “good giving”or a “perfect gift”. But when they receive discipline, their perspective of these is often seen as “bad” or “evil”. So good and evil is all relevant to the receiver and to their maturity. Discipline coming from the Lord is one of His “good giving” and is a “perfect gift”. However, for an immature child/Christian, it is often seen as “evil” and most attributes these as coming from Satan. The Christian that comes into maturity, will come to see that these “evil” were truly the Lord’s disciplines and sees that without them they wouldn’t of have grown, so these were in really “good” and perfect gifts despite at the time it was hard.

Heb 12: 4” In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” 7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”

Someone can be sent by the Almighty to do His bidings and may not be inspired(. In another word despite a source may not be speaking truth or "inspired", they may still be sent by the Lord. We see this principle at several places in the Bible but I’ll refer to two.

A. In Deut 13:1-5 defines a “false” prophets and says that even if “a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass” these doesn’t prove that this is a true prophet. Then the Lord states the reason for sending him which is to test our hearts :v.3 “Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer or dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God which all your heart and with all your soul”. Dt 13:3 So the purpose the Lord sends false prophets is to test our hearts so we can come to see if we really follow the Lord or not.

B. I don’t think anyone would say that the King of Babylon was inspired at the time the Lord sent him to bring judgment on Israel. Nebuchadnezzar was referred as the Lord’s servants trice (Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10). Despite that, the King of Babylon had his own reasons to do what he did, he still did God’s bidding and he fulfilled the law in Lev 26 & Deut 28 upon Judah without having any knowledge of this.

Judah saw Babylon as “evil” and with reasons too; despite Nebuchednezzar was still sent by the Lord to correct them.

Recognizing an Inspiration and how to avoid “EVIL”(judgment)
We can learn from Israel’s mistakes and avoid some “evil”. Now this “evil” that came upon Judah was quite harsh, however the intention behind this harsh judgment was purely “good” so to teach them righteousness. (Heb 12:11 quoted above & Is 26:9) This was not the first time the Lord had brought judgment upon Israel. In fact this was the 7th time. The Almighty had sold Israel to the foreigners 6 times prior :
#1. 8 years to Mesopotamia, Jud 3:8;
#2. 18 years to Moabites Jud 3:14;
#3. 20 years to Cannanites Jud 4:3;
#4. 7 years to Midians Jud 6:1;
#5. 18 years to Ammonites Jud 10:6-8; and
#6. 40 years to the Philistines Jud 16.

It is normal that a child need to learn a few lessons to grow into maturity. And often it takes some repetition like we see with Israel. But what Israel has repetitively failed is to study the Laws of the Lord, put it into practice by which would of taught them to know more deeply His mind and His ways. They would have been able to recognize His hands and purpose in the current events and able to distinguish true inspiration from the false.

We now face the same problem Judah had faced with Babylon today. Are we going to point our finger to Mystery Babylon saying “EVIL” and perceiving them coming from Satan? Thus failing to see the purpose in which the King of Babylon(for us Mystery Babylon) was sent in the first place?

Facing a harsh disciplinary judgment from the Lord, the words Jeremiah received for Judah was to submit to Babylon when he came tied to a WOODEN YOKE. If the people would of known the Laws in Lev 26 & Deut 28 and recall their 6 prior captivities as coming from the Lord, they would of recognized that Jeremiah was speaking according to that Law and spoke INSPIRED words. But the Lord sent also Hananiah to test their heart. He broke the wooden yoke which was an act of contempt against the Lord’s judgment. The king and the people of Judah agreed with Hananiah words and made the error to perceived him as the “inspired” prophet.

So the word came to Jeremiah "Thou hast broken the yokes of wood; but thou shalt make for them yokes of iron."Jer 28:12 So by being ignorant of the Lord’s Laws and not recognizing His Judgments, thus they resisted it which only made the outcome of the “evil” worst.

They could have had a milder judgment with a WOODEN YOKE, from which by definition means they could of stayed in their land and only pay a tax to Babylon as it was with the 6 prior corrective captivities. However, having failed the lesson given to them in the past and by not submitting to the wooden yoke they chose the only other option there was, the IRON YOKE. This event fulfilled the law in Dt 28:48 “Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all [things]: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.”

How to Test if a word or Interpretation is Inspired
True inspiration or correct interpretation of current events can be recognize mainly by testing all things with the foundation laid in the laws of Moses.

Is 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.”

Paul was not offended when the Bereans tested everything he said. Even they were praised for it above all other chruches. Thus it is the same thing with EGW writings – all things needs to be tested by each individual by the standard laid by Jesus. So JAK does right to question or test it and no one should criticize anyone for doing what the Lord told us to do in Deut 13 & 18 and Is 8:20 and etc...

I do not believe all things EGW wrote are inspired. Some is, but much is not. Our church never tested it and shunn those that does. So much work is to be done by the church to weed out what is inspired and what is not. I never felt called to use my study time to test EGW’s writings but rather I've been studying/testing the validity of doctrines and teachings against the Law and the Prophets.

As I don't want this to be a distraction from the other thread, I created a new thread out of this post.

Another reason I did this is for the reason that I want to get to the bottom of this, which I will explain further in another post here in this thread.

What exactly is "to the law and to the testimony" referring to in the above quoted text?

what if your brother is sunday preacher and he rejects you when you steadly tell him about the sabbath?

to the forum Barbaramelch

Do you keep the 7th year Sabbath? Do you keep the 8 days feasts Sabbaths? Do you keep the Jubilee year as a Sabbath? These are all Sabbaths too and written in the Law that we should keep them.

Maybe you could give a text indicating such in the Law which we could discuss?

Elle,

I would like you to answer this question for me/us.

I would take that as a sign to stop steadily telling him about the Sabbath and leave it to the Holy Spirit to convict him of the truth about the Sabbath. Of course, I am referring to the 7th Day Sabbath, which is what I assume you were also referring to in your post here.

“To the law(Torah, the Pantateuch) and to the testimony(t`uwdah, attestation, usage. see Ruth 4:7 manner /custom of keeping it): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. “ IS 8:20

The Pantateuch is the measure we need to use to test if someone’s words, interpretations, revelation, prophecies, or doctrines are true or false(Deut 13:1-11; Deut 18:15-22), including testing our own speculations or conclusions when studying scriptures. There’s no other written foundation given to man to test truth other than the Torah.

This is why I answered Barbaramelch's question relating to all the Sabbaths mentioned in the Torah. According to the law (Torah) there is more than the 7th day sabbath. How can we point to others for not keeping the 7th day sabbath when we do not keep the yearly Sabbath, 8 Sabbath Feasts days, and the Sabbath Jubilee??? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical?

Here's some.

Yearly Sabbath : Exodus 23:10-11,Leviticus 25:1-7,20-22; Deuteronomy 15:1-6; 31:10-13; Jeremiah 34:13-14; Nehemiah 10:32; 2 Chronicles 36:20-21; 2 Kings 19:20-30; Leviticus 26:23-24, 32-35, 43; II Chronicles 36:14-21)

8 Feasts Sabbaths Days: Lev 23:1-44; Exo 11:4-14; Exo 34:22; Num 10:1

Jubilee year Sabbath : Leviticus 25:8-55; Numbers 36:1-9; Ezekiel 46:16-18; Jeremiah 34:8-17

How does Ruth 4:7 substantiate it being the testimony of Isaiah 8:20?

In Ruth 4:7 shows the meaning of the word testimony[t`uwdah]. This word is only used 3 times in the Bible. In Ruth 4:7 define the word which means the manner of keeping the law.

I would like to emphasize the "correct" manner of keeping the law which can mean by keeping the whole law relating to an issue as Boaz was ready to do and wanted to make sure the nearest kinsmen would do if he exercise his right of the nearest kinsmen when they met with the 10 elders to settle the case of redeeming Elimelech & Naomi land. Boaz was ready to fulfill all the law which include the leverite law concerning to Marrying Ruth and producing an son to leave the inheritance to that grandchild of Elimelech & Naomi. This was the correct way to fulfill the law in its entirely. This means that nothing of that inheritance goes to the son of another wife if he had another wife before marrying Ruth.

In Ruth 4:4 we see that the nearest kinsmen was interested to keep portion of the law in redeeming the land but he was not ready to marry Ruth as the whole law demanded.

This is exactly what most denomination do including SDAs when we cherry pick the portion of the law we want and reject the rest. As we see in this story here the Israelites and the Jews were guilty of cherry picking the law too. Plus they twisted the meaning of the law to say things that the Lord never intended to mean, plus adding to the law things that is not there. These all produce "teachings of Men" by which Jesus continually tried to expose during His Ministry by teaching the Law(TORAH).

I would like to know how to convince people tht 'not under the law' means 'not under the PENALTY of the law'..

According to the Torah there are also animal sacrifices, death penalty, ceremonial uncleanliness...

Let's test the "prophets".

Do you sow for six years gathering the fruits thereof? And what size is your vineyard and oliveyard? (You do have them, don't you?)

And on the 7th year (and most of the 8th), do you only eat what it has given you and that you have stored from the 6th year, buying nothing nor relying on no other sources during that time?

And do you live in "booths" made from leafy boughs and palms in October in Canada or do you pilgrimage to Jerusalem?

Do you truly keep the law which you state we should?

I was also thinking about animal sacrifices in relation to the Torah.

Answer that one, Elle.

I think someone should find out just how many 'laws' there are in the Bibie and just which ones are being talked about.

To my understanding the whole Torah (Pentateuch) is law comprising of many many laws that many are still hidden from us as we fail to study it.

For a brief example in Genesis Abraham had two sons. The first, Ishmael -- the wild- donkey man (Gen 16:12), was born via an Egyptian mother. The same with the Lord who called his first son Israel(Ex 4:23; Hos 11:1) out of Egypt who were a wild-donkey natured nation(Jer 2:23,24) that all needed to be redeemed by a lamb(Ex 13:13). It is the same for all of us personally, we were all wild-donkeys before our conversion. This is a law -- difficult to name it, however it is still a law that needs to be fulfill in all of us individuals and nationwide.

Jesus said Mat 5:18"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

This means that all the Torah (Pentateuch) have a prophetic & spiritual dimension and all will be fulfilled.

I have already answered Rosangela this question in another discussion which I don't remember where right now. But I'll answer it again with Kland's post. It may take some time to do this and I'm a little overwhelmed with work right now.

Since I have already answered this questions in several posts and I will answer the posts in relation to my comment when time permits,

I would like to hear your own answer Daryl to this question. Also I would like to hear from Rosangela, Kland and Harold answers too. I think it is only fair that everyone lays down what they believe with Biblical support of course.

What do you(Daryl, Rosangela, Kland, Harold and others) think the Law and the testimony is referring to in Is 8:20?

"Torah" means "teaching," "instruction." It denotes all the revealed will of God. The context may determine if it applies to something specific within God's instructions (the 10 commandments or the law of Moses) or to God's instructions in general (the whole OT). In the case of Isaiah 8:20 "torah" may be parallel to "testimony" (which is the whole Word of God), in which case it would apply to the whole revealed will of God (that is, the whole OT); or it may be complementary to "testimony," in which case it could apply specifically to the 10 commandments or to the Pentateuch.

The SDA Bible Commentary says that the Hebrew word for "law" in Isaiah 8:20 is "torah", denoting all the revealed of God.

The SDA Bible Commentary also says, "This [the torah] is the common Biblical term for the inspired writings of Scripture, particularly those of Moses (see on Num. 19:14; Deut. 4:44; 30:10; 31:9; Prov. 3:11; See Vol. I. pp. 37,38). Isaiah directs men away from the words and wisdom of devils and men to the revealed wisdom of God. The prophets of God were His witnesses or spokesmen, and the "testimony" they bore was His message of wisdom and life. Isaiah here directs men to the Word of God as the standard of truth and the guide to right living. God has revealed Himself in His Word. Whatever men may speak that is not in harmony with that Word has "no light" in it (see on ch. 50: 10,11)."

I moved several posts from here and created a new thread out of them for the reason that they were Off-Topic to the thread they were in, therefore, please create a new thread in the future instead of going completely off topic in this thread.

What does it matter whether I own a vineyard or what I do. This is no concern of yours. According to Deut 13, you test the prophet with what he says and not with what he does.

When Israel came out of Egypt at passover, the Lord brought them to the foot of Sinai where they were suppose to hear the Lord each one individuals to receive His word, commands, laws, and judgments. This event was on the day of Pentecost. They heard the introduction of the law (the 10 commandments) and then they ran pleading to Moses saying "AV Ex 20:19 "Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die." The fire of the Lord (hearing His laws and ways) was burning their carnal flesh and they were afraid to die. Like what some may say in our church "by hearing we become change". Well they couldn't bear any more, so they asked that Moses hear the remaining of His laws and have Moses speak it to them. By refusing to hear the Lord for themselve, they rejected the sword of the Spirit, and didn't enter the next stage of their spiritual growth which is only found when someone enters the Pentecost(hearing the voice of the Lord for themselves). Because they rejected the Spirit of the Almighty, the Law was given to them in a physical symbolic language. A language design for young children to teach and to point to greather things found in the spiritual realm and "heavenly" reality.

All the Laws of Moses are written in the physical realm that are Types and Shadows of the spiritual realm.

So, Kland, what you are bringing from the law, are the physical realm by which can be important to keep depending on the law and application. These may be important to keep in our lives but the most important aspect for us to understand and get from these laws is the spiritual equivalence and realities of these laws and their application in our life.

I'll give you one example : the law circumcision is described as a physical aspect however Moses himself showed that this law was only a type and shadow of something greater to come when he said, Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer, Deuteronomy 10:16, and, The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live, Deuteronomy 30:6. Jeremiah made the same connection between circumcision and true circumcision in chapter 4:4, Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

So physcially circumcizing a child or a mature man could have health benefits, but the spiritual reality and vital importance of this law was not to be circumcized in the flesh, but rather to have our heart spiritually circumcized. No man(or woman) that is not spiritually circumcized cannot inherit the kingdom of God "that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant".(Gn 17:14).

All the laws of Moses are important and are still valid today. Besides having a physical realm pointing to a spiritual reality....all the laws have a prophetic realm also that most have some applications for us all in our life today too.

That's weird, 'Do as I say, not as I do...'


You said things were written in the law and we should keep them.
I asked you to give an example.
You chose the passage about sowing for six years, and olive and vineyards.
Then you complain. (or is it pick and choose?)

So now you are talking spiritual. But not what you said to the post I responded to. Or did you also say depending on how one picks and choose?

Oh yes, I think spiritually applying is what Paul talks about often.

Spiritually valid, you mean? So why are you talking about keeping them in the physical realm? Or is this a pick and choose thing and not "All the laws of Moses are important and are still valid today"?
(And not saying I didn't expect such)

The discussion at hand is about Is 8:20 --> how do we test whether doctrines, interpretations, or what a claim prophet(or not) what he’s saying is truth. This discussion is not about if we are to keep this part of the law physically or not. This would take much discussion & studying and it is off-topic.

However, reality is that all congregation including SDAs pick and choose things they want to keep in the law and say the rest are nail to the cross. I say none are nail to the cross. To answer briefly – the law has many dimensions :

Physical(or literal) : Most laws are to be applied literally, but there’s some that it is obviously no longer applicable, however this does not nail that law to the cross as the spiritual and the prophetic aspect of it is still to be fulfilled in all of us and in this world.

Here’s are some example of the laws to be applied literally: law of usury, law of liabilities, law of testing prophets, law of divorcement, law of forgiveness, law of equal measures, law of tree growing, law of tribulations, etc….

Here’s some examples of laws that would give us health benefits if we literally keep them would be the dietary laws, law of cleansings, for some circumcision, etc…

Example of some laws that are not physically observe today are the sacrificial services, however, all of these laws have deep spiritual meanings that all of us, royal priesthood in training, must keep daily. So none of these sacrificial laws are nailed to the cross and are still need to be kept spiritually. I know many will not understand or not agree but another discussion needs to be opened if anyone wants to tackle that question with the Bible.

Spiritual(or heavenly) : All laws have spiritual meanings and that is the most important aspects of any of the Laws of Moses. For example, we SDAs keep the Sabbath physically however, 99% of the SDAs do not understand the spiritual nor the prophetic meanings of the Sabbath. Many don’t understand the relationship of the other Sabbaths(Yearly, 8 Feasts Day Sabbath, and the Jubilee year Sabbath) with the weekly Sabbath. This is very shameful of us. I'm only starting to understand this right now so I'm including myself here in this shame.

All of the spiritual realm of the laws are to be understood, if not, then it is as if we do not observe that law at all like the Sabbath. The Lord is more preoccupied with us understanding the Spiritual aspect of any law and keep these very closely into our heart. The Spiritual meanings of these laws show the Lords character, His ways, His intends, and His plan how He will restore us all into His image and bring restitution of all things.

Prophetic : All the laws have a prophetic meaning and all will be fulfilled according to His word Not only once, nor not only in one dimension, but many times during different era and in many levels(Christ, firstfruits, Church, the world, etc…). The plan of salvation is written down with all the details given in the laws. Jesus said not one title or dot of the law will not pass until all is fulfilled. Any prophets are tested against the Law of Moses and that’s what Is 8:20, Deut 13 & 18, Jesus, disciples and apostles examples tells us.

Elle, you're waffling.


Hmmm. Most, obviously.... Hmm-hmm.

Shameful indeed.... for those who think such and do not properly keep their vineyard and oliveyard, letting it rest the 7th year. Could you please explain the spiritual aspects of such and for not sowing the sixth year?

As I was saying above.


Which is it, all laws or pick and choose?
Which is it, spiritual or physical (literal)?
You say none are done away with, but then you say don't do as you do or don't do.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Sounds to me your accusation to Daryl, you aren't keeping yourself. Excepting for only the pieces and bits you justify with doing. Not exactly worthy of one to go around saying others should keep "all" of the Jewish law.

I will agree with you that “Torah” can mean any instructions coming from the Lord(Pentateuch, or whole OT, or 10C, or even any specific instruction to us personally[my addition to your definition]), however when the Lord gave these words to Isaiah, it was to give clear instruction to the people how to test a message or any form of ideology or beliefs.

In Isaiah’s day’s and in Moses days, there were many prophets -- some false like Hannaniah and some true like Jeremiah. How were the people to know if the message spoken were truth from the Lord? They had to have something to test the message spoken against. The Lord gave us the Pentateuch which His Plan of "Restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began"(Acts 3:21) is depicted in great dept and witdth that Himself said that "not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished." Mat 5:18. He is following His plan given to Moses which was laid up since the world began. The Pentateuch is the only standard the Lord has given us where all coming messengers or prophets were to be tested against including Jesus Christ himself.

To save typing time here's an exerpt from our SDA brother, Myron, on Adventist Online.

“In Exodus 19:9: the Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” .” Moses is the only prophet in scripture where the people were actually able to witness God speaking directly to him. Even with Ellen White and the signs that accompanied her visions no one actually saw God speaking to her… With Moses the entire assembly witnessed this from a distance and the 70 leaders along with Aaron and his sons Nadab and Abihu, and Moses personal assistant Joshua witnessed this at close hand. The purpose for witnessing that God spoke to Moses personally was so that everyone would put their trust in Moses; but it was also to establish Moses as the standard by which all other prophets were to be compared to determine whether they were true or false.

The symbolism of the dense cloud means that not everything will be clear, but still God spoke to Moses in the presence of the people to establish Moses as the authority to be consulted in all matters. Later in the Law of the Prophets in Deuteronomy 18 we read,

15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

The people refused to hear God's voice for themselves after hearing the first 10 Commandments, and they demanded God speak through prophets instead. God agreed. All future prophets would be raised up for us among our brothers (or sisters) and yes, we are to listen to what they speak in God's name, but we are not supposed to give them a free pass on this. Verse 20 is clear that there will be those who claim to be speaking in God's name, but who do not and they are to be treated the same as those who speak openly in the name of other Gods. The statement "a prophet like you" is a specific point of law and says that all future prophets are to be compared to Moses.

The Law of the False Prophet clarifies this matter even more. In Deuteronomy 13 we read:

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Since the commands of God had been passed down to the people through Moses it is his writings they are to refer to in searching out God's commands, and it is by this standard that all prophets are to be judged. As the early part of this passage states, even false prophets can be accompanied by signs and wonders, and even by foretelling events which come to pass. None of these are the reliable signs as to whether a prophet is true or false, only whether the prophet has been sent by God, which this law says is not the same thing as being a true prophet. Some false prophets are sent by God specifically to test you whether you love him and are loyal to him.

So, I will look first and foremost to the standard God set for us and which Jesus affirmed when he said in John 5, 45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Elle, whether “law” here means the 10C, the Pentateuch, or the whole OT is irrelevant, because the second word, “testimony,” refers to the whole revealed will of God. So, in fact, the whole revealed will of God should be used to test a message or any form of ideology.

The Bible says that Christ nailed to the cross the "handwriting of ordinances" (Col. 2:14). It also says Christ abolished "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15). What does the Bible refer to in these passages?

There is another aspect of this that we do not always consider: What are the commandments?
Have you noticed that the commandments, and especially the ten commandments are frequently called The Covenant? It seems to me like the Bible uses the term "The Covenant" more frequently than "The Ten Commandments".

If you consider these ten commandments as the terms of a covenant they are not merely terms dictated by an arbitrator but the conditions agreed on by both parties. This is why the relationship between man and God is referred to in Scripture like a marriage where both parties agree to the terms of a union.

Some Hebrew scholars point to the fact that the wording of the Ten Commandments in Hebrew sounds somewhat different from the usual rendering in the English language. The Hebrew does not quite say "Thou shalt not," but could be understood in covenant terms as

"Under this covenant there is no other God. . ."

"This covenant permits no killing. . ."

"This covenant permits no untruthfulness. . . "

Considering what the Scripture says about the Sabbath, we see that the Sabbath is a memorial and a seal of the covenant between man and God and therefore unthinkable that we should forget the Sabbath Day because we live in a covenant with our Creator.

1. Is there a reason why the Bible calls these commandments "The Covenant"?

2. Is there a reason why Scripture is not satisfied with the commandments being only on stones, but a living reality in our hearts?

3. Is there a reason why the prophets (Isa. 53-58, Micah 3-7) bring the message that the killing of thousands of animals in the Levitical priestly service has no real meaning until the child born in Bethlehem has removed our sins and made the living reality of the covenant a part of our lives when He has thrown our misdeeds down into the bottom of the deepest ocean?

4. Is there a reason why the wording of the commandments in Ex. 20 and in Deut. 5 is not fully identical? Have you noticed the difference?

Good thoughts here, Johann.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

??? Where did you get your definition of “testimony”(t’uwdah=attestation, usage). We need to get our word definition from the Bible. This Hebrew word is used 3 times in the Bible by which Ruth 4:7 brings forth the definition in reference to the law.
You must of mist Post # 151948 from this discussion.


No Rosangela that’s is not what the Lord says in His word. The Lord has set Moses(the Law given to him) as the standard to test any messages or prophets according to Deut 13 & Deut 18.

Then also, what you are saying is too broad, and impractical. The Lord has sent many prophets in the past 6 milleniums and there's no way possible that anyone can know all the revelation given making it a prerequisite of testing a message.

To test something, you need to test it to a LAW, not a theory. The test is as good as the standard you are testing it against. What was given to Moses was the LAW(not a theory nor was there any question of the validity of the revelation) because it came from the Lord which was witnessed by the whole assembly accompanied with many manifestation of the presence of the Lord.

The LAW given to Moses is the standard from which all things are to be tested from.

The Law of Moses is the only foundation establish by the Lord where He reveal His plan of salvation in great detail. We know the Law is prophetic and Jesus said that all of the law will be fulfilled. Much of the Law is still not fulfilled and there's no other plans that is and will be fulfilled besides what is given in the Pentateuch. Maybe some details of some portion of the plan are reveal to prophets for a certain time period, but the underline of the plan is all known in the law.

All prophets or messages has to be tested against the Law. If it doesn't talk accordingly, it means it's not the Lord's plan(or message) but someone elses.

Johann if you read what the Bible actually says, the covenant that was made by the Lord with the children of Jacob was not about “especially the 10Cs”. The covenant ceremony is described in Ex 24:1-11 and it says in v.3 that “all the words of the Lord and the Judgments” is the content of the covenant. In v.4 Moses writes all these words in a scroll, and in v.7 he read that scroll at the covenant ceremony where the blood is sprinkled on the altar and the people who made the vow to obey these.

The people vowed three times to keep the Covenant

1st -- in Ex 19:7 The first vow was made before the covenant ceremony and before they receive the official 10Cs and the Judgments. It was a respond from the Lord saying in Ex 19:3 “if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”. So for the Israelites to agree to keep the Lord’s covenant, they must of already have known most of the content of it from Moses’ and their forefather’s teachings. In Ex 18:16 we know that Moses was already teaching the people the laws and judgments. Also we know that the laws and judgments, and charges were known to Abraham which he taught to his sons and was passed down from generation to generations.

2nd --in Ex 24:3 when Moses tells the people the words of the Lord and judgments received in Ex 21, 22, & 23

3rd -- in Ex 24:7 when Moses reads the scroll containing "all the words of the Lord and the Judgments”


The People's Vow
This covenant was a two party covenant and was conditional – based on the people’s obedience--" and all the people answered with one voice, and said "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.” Ex 24:3,7
This covenant differ from the one made with Abraham which was a one party covenant and was unconditional based on the work and promise of the Lord.
These two covenants need to be understood and reconciled into one.

The 10Cs was a Intro-Summary of the Covenant
At the beginning of the covenant ceremony in Ex 24, first the content of the covenant needed to be heard by the people. This started in Ex 20 with the 10Cs which the Lord spoke and every people in the congregation heard His words for themselves. This was only the introduction/summary of the covenant – there was more but it got interrupted by the people because they couldn’t tolerate hearing anymore and they all backed off away from the mount and begged Moses, “Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us lest we die.” So they only heard the introduction of the covenant and Moses had to go up to receive the rest (Ex 21, 22 & 23) which was repeated to the people after he came down the Mount in Ex 24:3. After the people heard the whole convenant twice -- the covenant ceremony resumed with the sprinkling of the blood to seal the covenant.

So written inside that covenant was the 10Cs and the Judgments and other words of the Lord found in Ex 21, 22, & 23 minimum.

Is it not interesting that the law that was symbolically internalized into the Ark of the Covenant was the 10C? Deuteronomy 5,6 tells what law was to be written on our heart. Is that not the New Covenant? Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will be written on our "inward parts", and Deuteronomy it telling us what law that is. The New Covenant is not that new in that it existed before the old, or second covenant. The difference being that the new was ratified by the blood of the sacrifice after the old. In fact, the new covenant is the original design.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If had my own translation this is how that verse would read. "To the law of Moses which foreshadows the work of Christ as our High Priest and the Testimonies of God's own mouth and hand, the Ten Commandments, if anyone testifies to anything that is not in harmony with that doctrine, it is because they do not have Christ in them."

Norman

What does your own translation mean to you?

Hi Kland,

what I wrote is what it means to me. I'm not sure if you meant something else.

Norman

I guess I'm saying I don't understand what you wrote means. What does what you wrote mean to you?

Your translation would of not been in harmony with other scriptures Norman. Did you botter reading Exodus 19 to 24 and other texts relating to the incidence of the given of the laws? It is clear that the 10Cs was only a summary of the laws and what followed detailed the 10Cs further with other laws.

APL be careful! Take all scriptures into account and do not ignore those that doesn't support what you want to believe. We are all guilty of doing this, however, let's be mindful of the tendencies of the flesh.

Deut 5,6 says the following:
“AV Dt 5:1 . And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

AV Dt 6:1 . Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do [them] in the land whither ye go to possess it:”

AV Dt 6:17 . Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

AV Dt 6:20 [And] when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [mean] the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you?

Moses goes on in Deut 5 to repeat what has happened at the foothill of Sinai when the congregation could only bear to hear the Introduction/summary of the covenant

AV Dt 5:24 “And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who [is there of] all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear [it], and do [it].”

There was more to come and the people said to Moses in v.27 to go near the Lord and hear the rest as they vowed “we will hear it, and do it” -- to do all what the Lord has to say in that covenant which includes the Judgments and other words given in Ex 21, 22, & 23 which is confirmed again in Deut 5:1 and Deut 6:1,17,20.

Now APL you show yourself sharing SDAs unhealthy unbalance obcession with the 10Cs because it is our main proof to sustain our Sabbath idol when we have no clue of the true meaning of the Sabbath and for the most part of us, are guilty of breaking it continually. But then we say like any other denomination that all the other laws of Moses are nailed to the cross when showing our incnsistencies when we cherry pick the ones and portion of others we want to impose on people like tithing, health laws, woman not being in leadership roles, and etc…

Again the scriptures I provided clearly show that the 10Cs is a summary of the whole law which is further detailed with the statutes, the judgments, and etc.

Also let’s keep in mind that “any word that proceeds from the mouth of God” that is uttered to any one of us becomes Law. This is why the covenant includes to "obey His voice" by which the Lord may ask you something very specific for you to do which becomes Law for you and not for another.

The 10Cs(summary of the Law) that they heard were written on two stones(Outside their person and put into a temple made of fabric and wood instead of their own flesh) was symbolic of their failure to enter the Pentecostal event that happened at Sinai. The Lord wanted to write His laws on their heart not on stones. Thus the Pentecost was only fulfilled after the cross sympolized by each indivuduals receiving a portion of the Spirit represented by a tongue of fire that rested on their forehead. That group of people entered the Pentecost == new covenant. However the people at Sinai backed off and refuse to hear futher that can only be sealed by an old covenant type of agreement. If they would of entered the Pentecost stage of spiritual growth marked by hearing then they would of received the fruit of the new covenant which is the Sword of the Spirit, understanding the Spirit of the Law, and would have these laws written on their own hearts(Inside their person/temple). So this is the source of their failure and faithless disasters after disasters that is recorded for our admonition.

That’s why the Lord made a two way conditional covenant (aka Old Covenant) with them knowing that by not hearing the laws for themselves it was impossible for them to obey these.

For the laws to be written on our heart is not an instantaneous magical event. It is a spiritual training that is mark by entering Pentecost by which we are trained to hear His voice/Laws=His Ways which we come to know the law giver. As we come to understand His laws and come to know the intend and purpose behind these Laws as they are all a reflection of the Lord’s character… then that’s when these laws becomes our own and becomes written on our hearts.

Contrary, the Lord made a one way unconditional covenant (aka New Covenant) with Abraham, Jacob and Isaac because they entered into the Pentecost and moved into the presence of the Lord like Moses did. These men were trained to hear His voice and came to know Him and His ways which is defines by His Laws.

ratified by the blood??? I do agree that all the laws of Moses needs to be written on our heart – from the law of circumcision to the Jubilee law. What needs to be written on our heart is not the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which only can come from understanding the laws which comes from knowing the law giver which comes from hearing him personally.

Jesus defined who His people where when He said "my sheep hear my voice."

In Hebrew Shama is the same word for hearing and obeying and these meaning are used interchangeably. So hearing and obeying is the same meaning and it is because obebience can only come from hearing first.

Faith also comes from hearing – “So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word[rhema, utterance] of God.”Rom 10:17 The word rhema here comes from the source word rheo that means "to utter, i.e. speak or say". Rhema is define by Strong as “an utterance” and this same text is translated by Youngs Literal translation as “and hearing by the saying[rhema] of God”. So Paul understood what faith stems from and further describes faith when Abraham heard the voice of the Lord to move out of Ur.

Something to note...to hear the Lord’s voice personally does not necessarily come in an audible voice. It can but most often we hear "a small still voice" via events or tribulations initiated by the Lord, impressions via studies, "gut feelings" and other form of the guidance of His Spirit, applying the law of double witness, etc...

So coming back to this discussion -- Is 8:20 says that if someone doesn't speak according to His Laws(Torah, Pentateuch) then what they speak doesn't come from the Law-Giver for the Law-Giver will never speak or act or do anything outside of His character aka His ways to go about fulfilling His plan which are defined and detailed in great dept in the Torah(Law).

Is 8:20 is in harmony with the Laws on how to test prophets or anything said by a brother written in Deut 13 & Deut 18.

Of which you admit you don't follow and say it is none of anyone's business of what you follow or don't.

The Bible is clear...we are to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord." Deut 8:3 and not by what people does.

Your question to me was only a trickery so to establish a proof on the basis on your interpretation of the letter of the law in the purpose to advocate "lawlessness" and to say “see the laws of Moses are nail to the cross”.

Your fruit show that you advocate not to walk in all His laws, statues, judgments, etc… I advocate the opposite that none of the laws are nail to the cross and to walk in keeping all of it wherever and whenever it is applicable according to the moving of the Spirit. By studying and tying to understand the mind and intention behind the law while is how we come to know the Law-Giver and recognize His small still voice amidst all the confusion, theories, and noices.

I never have claim, nor I believe no-man can claim to have full understanding of the law(Torah); thus my application of practice of it can only go as far as my current understanding. This is why no one should follow what someone else does. Only Jesus Christ -- The Law-Giver, knows how, when, and in what manner to apply His laws to any paticular events or isus. So that is why we are to follow the Lord not individuals. Each person needs to go to “thus says the Lord” .

In Mat 7:15-23 Jesus show who the false prophets are. In v. 16. He says you know them by their fruits which further says in v. 23 that it is those "who practice lawlessness"(anomia). 1John 3:4 expands on it by saying that “sin is lawlessness”(anomia). Jesus says to those false followers who in that group includes individuals who prophesied, perform miracles and cast out demons, “23 ...I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.(anomia)’

Their show of fruits is whether or not someone follow or uphold HIS laws. Which Law? The Torah of course. Not only the 10Cs which lacks details and specifications of the social, economic, agricultural, moral, judicial, etc... laws, status, and judgments of the Lord. Plus the Torah illustrates the whole plan of salvation – which He is fulfilling every day as history goes by.

A true prophet(or anyone amoung us speaking or teaching) will speak according to the TORAH and not only the 10Cs. The 10Cs cannot test a prophet as it is not detailed … it makes no sense. But if someone do not speak according to the TORAH – (now we have a good foundation to test someone against) -- it is because there’s no light in them.

Now Kland, by the definition of Is 8:20, Deut 13 & Deut 18 you are someone who is telling your brother and sister “Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers”. What was taught to “thy fathers”? It was what was given to Moses – the whole laws.

These laws are everyone’s duty to meditate, understand, and apply in a new covenant relationship type with the Lord. Some laws have both a physical and spiritual applications that is required of us to keep like do not practice adultery, bestially, usury, … do tithe, eat clean food, etc.. . Some other laws like the sacrificial services only have a spiritual application. This doesn’t mean that these sacrificial laws are nailed to the cross. No…by far. The blood of the lamb still needs to be applied to our heart altar—TODAY -- for every new convert, for those already converted that needs to repent, etc...

We also have the example of Timothy that the Lord ask to be circumcised to show that at times the Lord may ask someone to do something, that is not required for another. Whatever the Lord ask of you becomes LAW to you. That’s another reason we are not to follow what others practice for it could have been an extra-ordinary commandment for a particular person for a particular purpose for a specific time.

Also, we know that the priest worked on the Sabbath…actually it was required of them to perform almost twice as more sacrifices compare to other days. Now why would the Lord increase the workload of His priest on the Sabbath when He says in the 10Cs not to work on the weekly Sabbath? Isn’t this contradictory? Seeming contradictions is a product of our limited understanding of His laws as we only study & uphold the weekly Sabbath and discard all the rest of the Sabbaths taught in the Law and say it doesn’t apply to us today. This only works against us as we will never come to understanding the divine mind behind the Sabbath Laws, thus never be able to know how to truly keep the Sabbath according to the Lord’s view.

So Kland you show no respects and no value for the laws of the Lord in not seeking to learn them and uphold them. You need to kill that false prophet (voice of the carnal mind) that wars against the spiritual law, and only listen to the seed of Christ that lives in you that cannot sin.

Cute. So don't do what Elle does or doesn't do, but what she says.

What does "to the law and to the testimony" actually refer to?

Does it refer only to the Ten Commandments, or more than that?

""Also, we know that the priest worked on the Sabbath…actually it was required of them to perform almost twice as more sacrifices compare to other days. ""

Could I have the texts for that one?

Well we know the priest needed to do the "daily" sacrifices which consisted 1 lamb offering every morning and 1 lamb offering in the evening. So in addition to that, on every Sabbath day they had to offer an additional 2 lambs(Nu28:9-10).

I guess my wording wasn't accurate, I should of said "the priest was required to do at least twice as many sacrifice or more depending if other feast dates landed on a Sabbath day."

Other sacrifices required depending on whatever day the feast landed on which could be on a Sabbath day was the following (ref: Lev 23 & Num 29) :

-The first day of every Month : 2 Bulls, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid
- Unleaven bread (First Month day 15 to day 21):2 Bulls, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid
- Wave offering (16th day of the first month) : 2 Bulls, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid
- Trumpet Day (1st day of 7th month) : 1 Bull, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid
- Day of Atonement (10th Day of 7th Month) : 1 Bull, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid
- Tabernacles (from the 15th day to 21nd day of 7th Month) : 13 Bulls(the following day the number decreased of 1 bull from the day previous), 2 ram, 14 lambs, 1 kid
-Day of convocation (the 22nd day of the 7th month) : 1 Bull, 1 ram, 7 lambs, 1 kid

In the context of Isaiah, it refers specifically to:

1. "Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread." (Is. 8:13) That is the law.

2. This is the testimony (the spirit, or word, of prophecy), Isaiah 8:1-4 ...

"1 Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.
2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.
3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the Lord to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria."

We are also expected to adhere to the Law and the Testimony (the spirit, or word, of prophecy as contained in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) too. See Rev. 12:17.
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Could you explain "the testimony" more? It sounds like you are trying to say it has something to do with the fall of Damascus and Samaria. Either that or the prophesy of it happening. ?

Yes, in the days of Isaiah, that would be correct.

When God said, "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples" (Isaiah 8:16) he was saying, "Here, keep my word of prophecy and look to ME. Don't follow after the others. Wait, be patient; and in time, the word that I speak will come to pass."

It is the same thing being said in Rev. 12:17. The Dragon will seek to cause people to doubt God, his word, even his existence, but in the end the Revelation of Jesus Christ will come to pass as it is written.

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