Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?

***** Edited by Daryl Fawcett to say that I created this new thread out of another thread, as it was Off Topic to that other thread. *****

Elle : I don't agree with her evil definition as the Bible is clear that it is the Lord who created evil.

James : (WHAT?!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS ELLE?!!!)

Elle : What?!!!, you're not aware of this??? Maybe you're too busy reading what EGW said that you forget to read the greather light???

Bible : I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. | Isaiah 45:7

Here's a small sample of other texts about the relation of evil with the Lord.

God Sent an Evil Spirit
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: Jdg 9:23

And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. 1Sa 16:23 see also v. 15,16


God Brought all this Evil
And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. 1Ki 9:9

And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 1KI 17:20

Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again. 2Ch 34:28

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. Job 42:11

Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. Neh 13:18

And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them: Jer 32:23

For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them. Jer 32:42

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they [are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein, Jer 44:2

Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, [both] sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, [even] concerning all that I have brought upon it. Eze 14:22

Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God [is] righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. Dan 9:14

Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered. Jer 35:17

Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be [accomplished] in that day before thee. Jer 39:16


God DONE the Evil
If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull [you] down, and I will plant you, and not pluck [you] up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you. Jer 42:10

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]? Amo 3:6


God Pronounced or said this evil

And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place. Jer 40:2


And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not. Jon 3:10

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

God is the author of “light” and “peace.” He permits “evil”, that men and angels may witness the result of a departure from the eternal principles of right. In Scripture God is often represented as causing that which He does not prevent. Since God is supreme, His refusal to restrain the forces of evil is often represented as though He directly sends the evil. An example may be found in the incident of the fiery serpents. According to the narrative as related by Moses, “the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people” (Numbers 21:6). However, these “fiery serpents” were not suddenly created or miraculously transported from some other region for the occasion; they already infested the wilderness area through which the children of Israel were traveling and would have been a source of real danger and the cause of frequent deaths had not God, by miracle, subdued these venomous reptiles. But when the people turned against the God who protected them from the many hazards of the desert, God simply withdrew His protection, and death was the result.

You prove that scripture in the mouth of the unsanctified is used for evil.

"God did not create evil. He only made the good, which was like himself. But Satan would not be content to know the will of God and do it. His curiosity was on the stretch to know that which God had not designed he should know. Evil, sin, and death were not created by God; they are the result of disobedience, which originated in Satan. But the knowledge of evil now in the world was brought in through the cunning of Satan. These are very hard and expensive lessons; but men will learn them, and many will never be convinced that it is bliss to be ignorant of a certain kind of knowledge, which arises from unsatisfied desires and unholy aims. The sons and daughters of Adam are fully as inquisitive and presumptuous as was Eve in seeking forbidden knowledge. They gain an experience, a knowledge, which God never designed they should have; and the result will be, as it was to our first parents, the loss of their Eden home. When will human beings learn that which is demonstrated so thoroughly before them?" {RH August 4, 1910, par. 4}

God takes responsibility for creating Lucifer from which evil came from. For to use that text in the literal sense proves you do not know the righteousness of God Elle. Please repent of this evil that you cast on God.

"God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected but man suffers from pestilence.... These things are the result of drops from the vials of God’s wrath [God takes responsibility for that which he allows or does not prevent. See Exodus 7:3; 8:32; 1 Chronicles 10:4, 13, 14.] being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future.—Selected Messages 3:391 (1891). {LDE 27.1}

Moses showed the greatest connection to God by taking responsibility for his people. Jesus took responsibility for us when He cried forgive them for they know not what they do.

Right now that is my cry for you.

Apl, does the texts given above say that the Lord permits "evil"? Why do you insist to say what the Bible doesn't say? You're changing His word.

I believed and said the same thing for this is what we were taught. But this is not what the plain texts of many scriptures says. I don't have time to expand on this. I already did at least 3 times here in this forum. I don't remember where but I'll try to find it. This is getting off-topic also.

***** Edited by Daryl Fawcett to say that I created a new thread for all of these posts that were off-topic to the other thread, therefore, these posts are now on-topic in this new thread. *****

elle, Hebrews 1 tells us where to find the right interpretation.

I don't see the interpretation, could you expand?

Did God kill Saul? No Saul killed himself but Chronicles 10:14 says God slew Saul when Saul killed himself.

God took responsibility for the evil Saul committed.

Jesus takes responsibility for our sins, they are counted against Him when we confess and ask forgiveness, but did He commit them?

When Isaiah quoted God as saying "I created evil" (which is a bad translation , it should read "Making peace, and preparing evil" YLT) God is saying that He created beings with free will. He did not put a restraint on us to keep us from committing evil deeds. God made Satan as a free moral agent not an automaton forced to do His will.

Jesus is in control. He is sovereign. We manage the choices, but Jesus manages the consequences. Nothing happens by fate or chance. Jesus manages things in several ways:

1. He does it.
2. He commands holy angels to do it.
3. He permits men to do it.
4. He permits evil angels to do it.

Whether He does it, commands it, or permits it He is ultimately in control of the outcome. He establishes and enforces limits to ensure things do not exceed what He is willing to do, command, or permit. Not everything is cause and effect. Sometimes things happen as punishment and not the direct result of what someone did.

For example, the Flood was punishment for sin and not the direct cause and effect result of sinning. Sinning did not trigger the forces of nature to cause the Flood. Nature is not self-acting. It merely acts out the will of Jesus. He did not create the forces of nature and turn it loose to behave accordingly. Everything nature does, good or bad, is the direct result of how Jesus chooses to employ the forces of nature.

On the other hand, most of the time consequences are related to the choices people make. For example, smoking can cause cancer. However, it is incorrect to assume the laws of health are self-acting. Jesus manages the laws of health. How they act, and the consequences, are the direct result of how Jesus employs them.

So there is no such thing as cause and effect. The health laws are not self-acting. Jesus has to come in and inflict the damage. Really?

I think there are natural consequences in relation to our wrong choices.

If I choose to drink too much strong drink, I am going to get intoxicated.

***** STAFF EDIT *****

To say "it is incorrect to assume the laws of health are self-acting" and "Jesus manages the consequences" is like saying we can eat and eat and it does not affect our bodies Jesus does the damage.

"He who gorges himself with many kinds of food at a meal is doing himself injury... If you feel all wrought up, and everything seems to go wrong, perhaps it is because you are suffering the consequences of eating a great variety of food.—Manuscript 41, 1908."

Conversely...

"Right physical habits promote mental superiority. Intellectual power, physical stamina, and length of life depend upon immutable laws. Nature’s God will not interfere to preserve men from the consequences of violating nature’s requirements. He who strives for the mastery must be temperate in all things. Daniel’s clearness of mind and firmness of purpose, his power in acquiring knowledge and in resisting temptation, were due in a great degree to the plainness of his diet in connection with his life of prayer.—The Youth’s Instructor, July 9, 1903 (Messages to Young People, 242)

How about alcohol, is it Jesus who damages us too?

"As we face these things, and see the terrible consequences of liquor drinking, shall we not do all in our power to rally to the help of God in fighting against this great evil? At the foundation of liquor drinking lie wrong habits of eating. Those who believe present truth should refuse to drink tea or coffee, for these excite a desire for stronger stimulant. They should refuse to eat flesh meat, for this too excites a desire for strong drink. Wholesome food, prepared with taste and skill, should be our diet now. Those who are not health reformers treat themselves unfairly and unwisely. By the indulgence of appetite they do themselves fearful injury. Some may think that the question of diet is not important enough to be included in the question of religion. But such make a great mistake. God’s Word declares, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” The subject of temperance, in all its bearings, has an important place in the working out of our salvation. Because of wrong habits of eating, the world is becoming more and more immoral.—Letter 49, 1902. {Ev 265.2}

“Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.” It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents’ guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father’s sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin. {PP 306.3}

The laws of nature (which includes health) are employed by Jesus. They are not self-acting, they cannot do what they do independent of Jesus. Like a car they require an operator. If Jesus left off using them to serve His purposes they would simply cease to do anything - rivers would not flow, plants would not grow, hearts would not pump blood, etc. Every single function of nature is totally, completely dependent upon Jesus employing them every single second of every single day.


Cause follows effect because Jesus chooses to operate the laws of nature accordingly. It isn't random or arbitrary. Jesus doesn't violate His laws to bless or curse or punish sinners. Some people believe nature is self-acting and self-destructive and that Jesus must work to prevent it from destroying the world. They say the Flood happened because Jesus chose to cease preventing it from happening. But nature is not self-acting. Jesus employed the laws of nature to cause the Flood.

Cancer cells are not self-acting. Germs, bacteria, viruses, diseases, etc are not self-acting. They answer to Jesus. He operates, employs them to serve His purposes. For example, He gave Moses leprosy in an instant and took it away in an instant. The Hebrew boys suffered no ill effect when cast into the fiery furnace. Ananias died in an instant. Paul shook off the viper with no consequences. Jesus manages the outcome of everything that happens. What seems like cause and effect is actually the result of Jesus employing the laws of nature to serve His purposes.

Moses' hand became leprous because of his lack of faith. He was afraid of the responsibility God was giving him so as a sign God told him to put his hand to his breast (to himself) then to withdraw it and it was covered in leprosy. This is because Satan wanted to destroy Moses (the deliverer through whom the 'seed' would come) and God permitted the attack to show him that he must have faith or Satan would devour him. If God were to withdraw His protection from Moses he would have been destroyed by Satan immediately. Same with Meshach Shadrach and Abednego, God protected them from the destruction Satan wanted inflict.

"Satan is the originator of disease, and the physician is warring against his work and power. Sickness of the mind prevails everywhere. Nine tenths of the diseases from which men suffer have their foundation here. Perhaps some living home trouble is, like a canker, eating to the very soul and weakening the life forces. Remorse for sin sometimes undermines the constitution and unbalances the mind. There are erroneous doctrines also, as that of an eternally burning hell and the endless torment of the wicked, that, by giving exaggerated and distorted views of the character of God, have produced the same result upon sensitive minds. Infidels have made the most of these unfortunate cases, attributing insanity to religion, but this is a gross libel, and one which they will not be pleased to meet by and by. The religion of Christ, so far from being the cause of insanity, is one of its most effectual remedies; for it is a potent soother of the nerves. {CH 324.2}

You are putting on God's head the attributes of Satan M&M. You are confusing God's intervention with God having purpose to deliver cancer and disease. You are causing confusion in God's church so you are being an instrument that would bring disease.

"Satan, the author of disease and misery, will approach God’s people where he can have the greatest success. He has controlled the appetite in a great measure from the time of his successful experiment with Eve, in leading her to eat the forbidden fruit. " {CD 375.3}

"The human family have followed in a course of disobedience, and, like Eve, have been beguiled by Satan to disregard the prohibitions God has made, flattering themselves that the consequences would not be as fearful as had been apprehended. The human family have violated the laws of health, and have run to excess in almost everything. Disease has been steadily increasing. The cause has been followed by the effect.—Spiritual Gifts 4a:120, 1864 {CD 145.2}

"From the light God has given me, the prevalence of cancer and tumors is largely due to gross living on dead flesh." 410 {CCh 229.5}

Satan is the cause of disease, not God. For you to say that God gave Moses leprosy is like saying He gave Job the boils and sores upon his body to the point of death. DO YOU KNOW THE STORY OF JOB? God permitted SATAN to deliver the plague, it was not God who did it.

Now on the subject of the destruction of the planet with flood and fire, God did His strange act. This is completely different. You need to go to God's schoolhouse as a student so He can teach you.

One more point.

To say "What seems like cause and effect is actually the result of Jesus employing the laws of nature to serve His purposes" is like saying the laws of chemistry or physics is not based off of cause and effect. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

In science they know that if you use the processes of hydrolyzation you get one or more new compounds. They know that if you want to combust something you always need Oxygen and it always results in heat. In Dietary science they know if you eat too many calories it gets stored as fat in your body.

They know that too much bad Cholesterol in your bloodstream causes arterial plaque. They know that if you continue to eat like this you are destined to die early. For a Christian to think that they can eat and live like this after being told by God not live like that is not only detrimental to health it is tempting the forbearance of God.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw Himself off the temple because the word of God says "angels would bear you up" Jesus replied "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".

In what you're saying, that the dietary laws are not following a cause and effect model is not only unscientific, it is against the commandments of God.

To live contrary to the dietary laws, relying upon the intervention of God, is tempting fate. I hope this makes sense because you, as an ex pastor, have been in the position to teach men your flawed theories and you endanger not only yourself but others in teaching this.

God can counteract any of His established laws of science, usually by employing angels or divine intervention, I.E. walking on water, walking into a fire and not burning, etc., but this is not the earthly rules, it is heavenly, it is beyond our established fallen worldly laws of physics.

Jesus spoke the laws of nature into existence and sustains them by the power of His word, but we are connected to heaven only through Christ. The laws of nature are not different for men who are not Christians.

We have the blessing of heaven to be connected to the source of life who can walk on water and gave us the right to be filled with the will of the Father to resurrect others if it is His will, but this is not the rule in this fallen world. You put the paradigm upside down Mountain Man. Jesus only dwells in us if we accept Him, He is not in all of us, but He does sustain us all. We are born with a measure of faith, but if it not strengthened and responded to

Man the more I read this the more upset I get. Do you think Jesus would cause babies to be born with cancer or birth defects?

Is it God's will children are born plagued with parasites or aids or malaria or scurvy? How about without eyes or needing bone marrow transplants? You blame this on Jesus.

I was praying about your response Mountain Man and I was led to the perfect quote to answer your statement.

"The book of Genesis gives quite a definite account of social and individual life, and yet we have no record of an infant being born blind, deaf, crippled, deformed, or imbecile. There is not an instance upon record of a natural death in infancy, childhood, or early manhood. There is no account of men and women dying of disease. Obituary notices in the book of Genesis run thus: “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.” “And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.” Concerning others, the record states: He lived to a good old age; and he died. It was so rare for a son to die before the father that such an occurrence was considered worthy of record: “And Haran died before his father Terah.” Haran was a father of children before his death. {FE 22.1}
God endowed man with so great vital force that he has withstood the accumulation of disease brought upon the race in consequence of perverted habits, and has continued for six thousand years. This fact of itself is enough to evidence to us the strength and electrical energy that God gave to man at his creation. It took more than two thousand years of crime and indulgence of base passions to bring bodily disease upon the race to any great extent. If Adam, at his creation, had not been endowed with twenty times as much vital force as men now have, the race, with their present habits of living in violation of natural law, would have become extinct. At the time of Christ’s first advent, the race had degenerated so rapidly that an accumulation of disease pressed upon that generation, bringing in a tide of woe, and a weight of misery inexpressible. {FE 22.2}
The wretched condition of the world at the present time has been presented before me. Since Adam’s fall, the race has been degenerating. Some of the reasons for the present deplorable condition of men and women, formed in the image of God, were shown me. And a sense of how much must be done to arrest, even in a degree, the physical, mental, and moral decay, caused my heart to be sick and faint. God did not create the race in its present feeble condition. This state of things is not the work of Providence, but the work of man; it has been brought about by wrong habits and abuses, by violating the laws that God has made to govern man’s existence. Through the temptation to indulge appetite, Adam and Eve first fell from their high, holy, and happy estate. And it is through the same temptation that the race have become enfeebled. They have permitted appetite and passion to take the throne, and to bring into subjection reason and intellect. {FE 23.1}
The violation of physical law, and the consequence, human suffering, have so long prevailed that men and women look upon the present state of sickness, suffering, debility, and premature death as the appointed lot of humanity. Man came from the hand of his Creator, perfect and beautiful in form, and so filled with vital force that it was more than a thousand years before his corrupt appetites and passions, and general violations of physical law, were sensibly felt upon the race. More recent generations have felt the pressure of infirmity and disease still more rapidly and heavily with every generation. The vital forces have been greatly weakened by the indulgence of appetite and lustful passion. {FE 23.2}
The patriarchs from Adam to Noah, with but few exceptions, lived nearly a thousand years. Since the days of Noah, the length of life has been tapering. Those suffering with disease were brought to Christ from every city, town, and village for Him to heal; for they were afflicted with all manner of diseases. And disease has been steadily on the increase through successive generations since that period. Because of the continued violation of the laws of life, mortality has increased to a fearful extent. The years of man have been shortened, so that the present generation pass to the grave, even before the age at which the generations that lived the first few thousand years after the creation came upon the stage of action. {FE 24.1}
Disease has been transmitted from parents to children, from generation to generation. Infants in the cradle are miserably afflicted because of the sins of their parents, which have lessened their vital force. Their wrong habits of eating and dressing, and their general dissipation, are transmitted as an inheritance to their children. Many are born insane, deformed, blind, deaf, and a very large class are deficient in intellect. The strange absence of principle which characterizes this generation, and which is shown in their disregard of the laws of life and health, is astonishing. Ignorance prevails upon this subject, while light is shining all around them. With the majority, their principal anxiety is, What shall I eat? what shall I drink? and wherewithal shall I be clothed? Notwithstanding all that is said and written in regard to how we should treat our bodies, appetite is the great law which governs men and women generally. {FE 24.2}
The moral powers are weakened, because men and women will not live in obedience to the laws of health, and make this great subject a personal duty. Parents bequeath to their offspring their own perverted habits, and loathsome diseases corrupt the blood and enervate the brain. The majority of men and women remain in ignorance of the laws of their being, and indulge appetite and passion at the expense of intellect and morals, and seem willing to remain in ignorance of the result of their violation of nature’s laws. They indulge the depraved appetite in the use of slow poisons, which corrupt the blood, and undermine the nervous forces, and in consequence bring upon themselves sickness and death. Their friends call the result of this course the dispensation of Providence. In this they insult Heaven. They rebelled against the laws of nature, and suffered the punishment for thus abusing her laws. Suffering and mortality now prevail everywhere, especially among children. How great is the contrast between this generation, and those who lived during the first two thousand years! {FE 24.3}

MM's claims are the same as elle's on this. God is the source of evil.

elle appears to want to put her trust in pavement. so be it.

While you jsot, are agreeing with me in the majority on this topic, this I can not agree with: "Now on the subject of the destruction of the planet with flood and fire, God did His strange act. This is completely different. You need to go to God's schoolhouse as a student so He can teach you."

What is God's strange act? When He acts like the devil and causes destruction and evil? NO. God never changes. God's strange act is when He does not overrule evil with mercy, He lets evil play out unobstructed. And the fires at the end is a clean up process, burning up the stubble, Malachi 4:1.

APL thank you for your insight on the issue before, but may I please correct you on this point. It is not evil for God to have His angels pour out the last seven plagues, is it?

The righteous angels who stand next to the throne of God Hold the vials which contain the Seven last plagues.

The coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of angels will cause the wicked to be slain by His glory, their tongues and eyes will consume away because of their wickedness, while calling on the rocks to kill them. What more terrifying event has there ever been?

The righteousness of God is a consuming fire to the wicked. Please be careful; how you address this issue. It is a strange act for God to execute justice and punish the wicked and Satan is not in control of hell.

Evil angels are permitted to do evil to men in this day and age but God has also sent His righteous angels in the past to do His work.

"A single (righteous) angel destroyed all the firstborn of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he allows. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {4SP 441.1}

"I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, “It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked.” {EW 52.1}

"Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. Terror seized me, and I fell upon my face before the angel and begged of him to cause the sight to be removed, to hide it from me, for it was too dreadful. Then I realized, as never before, the importance of searching the Word of God carefully, to know how to escape the plagues which that Word declares shall come on all the ungodly who shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. It was a great wonder for me that any could transgress the law of God and tread down His holy Sabbath, when such awful threatenings and denunciations were against them. {EW 64.2}

So, the Bible says that God creats evil. You have established that. but, you have not addressed the question as to the meaning of the word "evil."

"Evil" may have a moral sense such as we usually attribute to Saten. It also may mean trouble that comes such as a fire that burns up ones home. The bottom line is that the Hebrew word used for "evil" in this verse has both meanings. So, which is the meaning that the Biblical writer intends to communicate?

As correctly cited above, God says: "I make peace, and create evil:. . ." That context, as I see it reminds me of conflict, which may be evil. (Some conflict is good.) "Peace" implies a lack of conflict, or war. In contrast to peace, God may create trouble which can be conflict or war.

Looking forward to Isaiah 47:11, you will see exactly this. In that verse, "evil" is described as trouble, which (see vs. 9) can be widowhood or loss of children.

NOTE: See also Amos 3:6. Here "evil" carries the meaning of clamity, affliction and/or judgement.

James, I disagree with what Elle has said. I have more agreemenet with you as to what the Bible teaches. You are more correct, in my mind than Elle.

But, God has not given you the task of making the statements about Elle that you have made:

You do not have the moral right to suggest that Elle is unsanctified. To compare her to those who crucified Christ, as you did is not appropriate.

James, people can be wrong and honest and sincere.

jsot - HOW are the last plagues poured out? How do the angels harm the earth? How was Jerusalem destroyed? By active intervention of God? NO.

Revelation 7:1-2 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:

What is their power to hard? They stop doing what they are doing, which is holding back the winds. When they stop, the harm comes. To say that God is actively inflicting the harm of the last plagues, torturing sinners, when they have no hope for salvation, is calling God a tyrant, arbitrarily inflicting pain, for what purpose, but to punish.

James, cancer cells are not self-acting. They would cease to function if Jesus ceased to employ them. This does not mean Jesus causes cancer. Ellen White is clear about it:


Jesus permits evil angels to tamper with the laws of nature. Poison is the result of their amalgamation. But evil angels cannot create life. Nor can they give life to the laws of nature. Thus, their existence depends on Jesus for life. They would cease to function without His life-giving power. They are able to annoy and cause disease, disaster, and destruction because Jesus chooses to give them life and existence.


Sometimes Jesus employs the evil results of Satan's amalgamations to serve His purposes. Most of the time Jesus permits cause and effect to run its normal course. However, germs, viruses, bacteria, etc are not self-acting. Again, they depend on Jesus for their existence and their activity. He does not sit back and allow things to happen without guidance and limitations. He sets limits and enforces them ensuring things play out according to His will. He is in control - not sin, not sickness, not man, not evil angels. Jesus doesn't force sinners to sin. He doesn't randomly make them sick. He does, however, manage the outcome of their choices.

I am assailed by both sides of every argument, but if you could only see the results of what you say. There is a fine line between both sides of every argument. Our church is self destructing from men who think they know the truth but while there is no harmony in the church.

I don't why I even bother trying to help, I am not allowed to say what is shown me and I am censored on every side. I guarantee you not even half of why I say here makes on to this website. I doubt if they will even post this statement for me.

Shame on you guys. What do I say that is so offensive? You act like Satan trying to censoring what I say.

Does God censor what men say? You use the power you have to act like Satan under the pretense of acting for God.

In America we have the freedom of speech, I suppose Canadians don't have that luxury and feel as if you have the liberty to act like you do... But when a man is speaking that which he is inspired from God and another man in power censors what he says, who do really work for?

I agree with MM (& EGW quotes) referring that nothing is self-acting. What you sum up in the quote above and other post concerning this-- we share the same understanding.

As you said this concept basically acknowledge the Sovereignty of the Lord over all things. Nothing is out of His control. He is not slaves to our decisions or the events and our consequences as if He needs to adjust His plan continually in respond to the unforeseen. This is making people decision and events Sovereign over the Lord and these controling the futur. His plan has been laid up since before creation and this plan has been given via the law and the Prophets. All events and role players (see-- Rom 9) will be fulfilled according to His plan and His choosing.

Eph 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

Does the Lord Control Everything?
Freewill is another concept that needs to be understood Biblically. I know most of you if not all will oppose to this too, but the Bible says man has no freewill.

Man does have choices. This is one aspect which everyone confuse with freewill. Faced to an event, we have two or three choices at the most by which these available selection is controled by the Lord. Just as a father or teacher who gives a few choices to their children/student according to their maturity and understanding. The wrong choice brings on a "correction", "judgment", aka "shoool of hard knock". Sadly we often learn more from our mistakes than from making good decision.

Is 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Is 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

I'm glad you brought the Biblical definition of "evil". This important work is often lacking in personal studies and in discussion as individual have different definition of words. Most of our words definitions have Babylonians phylosophy and ways attach to it. And we read an English translated Bible with these incorrect definition which are not the Lords. This leads to misunderstanding of texts and more confusion. So the first work needed is to correct these wrong definition and replaced these with the Lords definition, ways and phylosophy. One effective way is to find the Hebrew or Greek word and look up most of their occurences in context from scripture to see the Lords true definition.

We are in agreement with the definition of evil. I have expressed this in the past when I brought this up in the quote below.

James, please stop trying to make this study about you. It's not about you - it's about Jesus and the truth. Stick with the facts. State the truth. Thank you.

No way Daryl, not unless God permitted it.

Daryl, what did you say?

Don't even direct anything you comment on towards me and I won't respond to your harassment. Thank you.

James is referring to this post:

(elle - you can ignore this post)
I was reading through The Desire of Ages this week. The question, does God create evil? NO. To associate evil with God is Satan's plan.

Ok,
Cancer cells are not self-acting.
But Jesus does not cause cancer.
Jesus guides the cancer cells.
He makes sure they act according to His will.

What can we make of that if a reasonable person would conclude Jesus causes Cancer sickness.

And at the same time,
Sin is not self-acting.
But Jesus guides sin.
He doesn't force sinners to sin, but guides them in their sin.
And makes sure sin acts according to His will.

wow.

James, I believe you would think it is silly that God directs and guides cancer so that it will consume people who violate health laws. That God is sitting up there on a cloud and sees someone who doesn't do what He says, so rather than it being a cause and effect, God directs and guides those cancer cells to start consuming his internal organs.

However, is it any different from your idea that God would directly cause or direct the plagues?
Do you say that it's not cause and effect or from some other reason but that God is sitting up on His cloud and looks down and sees that this sore causing pestilence, through cause and effect, would not have harmed one or other specific individuals, so He says, "I can fix that", and so He directs that sore causing pestilence, which would not have otherwise caused harm to that person, and directs it so it causes the harm to that person which He desires them to experience?

The Bible says the angels pour out the vials.
The Bible says God slew Saul.
We know what we think "slaying" means.
We know what we think "pouring out" means.
Shall we need any further investigation as to what the Bible is saying?

The Bible says the wrath of God is complete in the seven last plagues. According to Romans 1, how is the wrath of God revealed? Could the wrath of God be revealed and completed in the seven last plagues?

This is why relying solely on the KJV or any 1 translation will get you into trouble. I suggest you get a Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic as a co-study Bible.

Is what kland posted really that hard to understand?

Mrs. White has a good statement that will help put the topic of this thread into the correct perspective. God is not in the business of either creating or permitting evil...but the evil has been permitted to run its course in order to fully eradicate it forever. The fewer lives lost in the process, the better by God's perspective. This means that sometimes lives must be lost in order that others are not similarly affected by sin.

Note how Mrs. White characterizes God's response to a particular sin in the time of the Israelites in the following story.


If God did not respond in judgment and justice, executing the penalty of sin upon the sinner, many others would be infected by the sin and would be lost as a result. So God's act of punishment is actually an act of salvation--saving the lives of many who might otherwise have followed the evil example they had witnessed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Keep also in mind Green - the PP quote is speaking of the civil government. The same rules include Exodus 21:24, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, ... Civil government today is still based on this rule. Also observe who inflicted the punishment. Was by God's hand? Contrast these rules with the view of God we get in from God's son. John 8:11, neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. And Matthew 5:38, you have heard...

APL,

You have part of the truth there. It was God's system of government, a so-called "theocracy," that was involved here. So, yes, it was "government." And yes, perhaps governments today still bear some resemblance to it in their forms of law and order.

However, why do you ask if it were "God's hand?" Should this make a difference when it was God Himself giving the orders? " God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death."

If God is directing directly, then I would say His hand is involved. God had a hand in the matter. God told the company exactly what to do. They followed His orders, and their obedience was righteous.

Your attempt to "contrast" this event with Jesus' offer of forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery is disingenuous. Instead of looking for why God might "contradict" Himself, why not find the congruity? After all, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever we are told. Malachi 3:6 tells us God does not change. Therefore, the same God who would forgive and who would execute justice and judgment would have both of these characteristics in righteousness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, it makes a difference. God did not want Israel to have a king. But Israel wanted a king. God gave Israel the best rules for having a king. God did not want Israel to fight its way into the promise land. God would have done is slowly, by the hornet as one method, a non-lethal method at that. But Israel did not want that, they wanted to fight their way in. God gave the best rules under the circumstances. God hates divorce. But God gave rules because of the hardness of the hearts of Israel. And as far as executing justice? God's wrath is letting the natural consequences of sin play out. God does not have to "execute" sinners, sin will do that just fine.

Where is your text to say that "sin will execute sinners?" Do you have one? Please furnish it.

Regarding the comparisons to King Saul, divorce, etc., they are not equal comparisons. We can compare apples to oranges all we want, but what we really need to do is to see the clear picture of what it is we are comparing, and know that the apple is an apple, and the orange is an orange. After we have ascertained this, then we may be able to go on to comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges as appropriate.

God did not ask Israel to ask for a king. The Israelites did not bring the matter first to God to see what He wanted them to do. They just went and did their own thing. Such was not the case with the situation Mrs. White speaks of regarding stoning the blasphemer. The people did not know what they should do. They did not just go ahead and do their own thing, stoning the man because they were filled with sinful anger. No, not at all. They went and asked for counsel from God. God Himself told them to stone the man.

Would God ASK you to sin? Far from it! APL, until you realize the truth of the fact that God would never command you to sin, you will never understand this issue in its correct light.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Let's adjust the familiar text for some perspective:

"The wages of work is money." Now, does "work" pay the money itself? Or is there a Master who pays the wages? Who is in charge? The "work" or the "master?"

If I commit "sin," does or can my transgression of the law, as if it were an animate or sentient being, inflict punishment upon me of itself? It can no more do so than my act of having done some work suddenly place money in my hand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Here is another quotation from Mrs. White which clearly joins the mercy and justice of God as inextricably linked. She goes so far here as to clarify that when God's judgment and justice are removed from our Gospel message, that the message is weakened and lowered to a point where many may even cast aside its truths.



Those are some serious thoughts for consideration. Those who uphold both parts of the truth: the mercy and the justice of God; are those who promote the truth most fully. Truth should not be slighted nor despised. We must not look down on any part of truth just because it might seem less agreeable to us.

God has told us not to underestimate His justice. Why, then, do we do so? Is it not because we wish to feel that there will remain no reckoning for the sinful deeds we have done? Are we not fleeing a guilty conscience by consoling ourselves with the false notion that God will not one day bring us into judgment for our every thought and deed?

God is not evil. Neither is it evil for God to be just and to execute His righteous judgments upon sinners.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Is James saying, when sin is full, God will kill you? Nope.
We are comparing methods, thus the comparison if valid.God also gave council on how best to fight. But is that what God wanted? Nope. The confusion comes in when you compare how the government of Israel compares with the government of God. All civil governments in this fallen world use force to make its citizens to keep its laws. God's government is not of this nature. So you can never compare earthly governments with God's kingdom on a one-to-one basis. Those looking for God to employ brute force to enforce His laws, are repeating the error of Israel.

APL,

I don't have the language of heaven to use to communicate to you the truths you are missing. I know not what further I can say.

God's honor is at stake here. God has said He will execute justice and judgment, and that we should not underestimate these. Are you upholding God's honor?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you really believe what you just said? Does this mean, when you transgress, that God has to come down, and personally inflict the punishment for that transgression? Really? I don't like your god. How many EGW quotes would you like? I have many. Hm - God must have come down and inflicted this punishment. Even the inherited effects. According to Green it is not! Suffering is inflicted by God. According to green, disease is inflicted by God for transgression of the law (sin) for sin can't pay its own wage. Hm - I guess the suffering that the Creator incured was self-inflicted. Hm, according to green, disease is inflicted by God for transgressing His law. It is not a natural consequence.

My question to you is, are you???? The only reason sin is so bad is because it is breaking God's rules. Nothing would happen to the sinner, except God gets mad and then inflicts punishment on the sinner. Nothing could be farther from the true. Sin is awful. Why? Because it destroys what God has made. That is the fact. All pain, all suffering, all disease, all death, ALL DEATH, all broken relationships and strife, are caused by sin. These things are NOT caused by God. None of them! That is why sin is so bad. Jesus said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". John 14:9. God is exactly like Jesus. Did Jesus ever do that things you say God will do? Nope. I will remind you that All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

If Jesus felt the "overwhelming force" of "the wrath of God," how can we say that God does not "force?"

Context is very important. When we are told that God does not force, it is in the context of man's free choice. God will never force the will, the conscience, or the choice of any of His subjects. This does not mean, however, that God is not in charge of their fate or even of their circumstances at times. Look at Jonah. I don't think it was Jonah's wish to be entombed in the belly of a whale for three days and nights! And what about Pharaoh's army which pursued the Israelites to the Red Sea? I don't think it was their wish or choice to be engulfed in its waters and drowned! Did God "force" them? Their choice, no. Their fate, yes. There is a decided difference between these two.

Jesus died in great agony on the cross. Most of that agony was not the physical side. In fact, even the soldiers were surprised at how quickly He had expired. What killed Him?

We are told that God's wrath was placed upon Him as our Sin-bearer. Why should we choose to believe that Jesus had a pleasant or comfortable, "loving-grace-filled" death such as would befit God's mercy, love, and benevolence? Would this not dramatically water-down the truth of the Gospel and make it seem less attractive to those in the world who are truly suffering under the weight of sin? How should they be led to believe in a God who never experienced what they feel?

Nay, but Jesus drank the cup to its bitterest dregs. And we, by His amazing and incomprehensible sacrifice of love, may be rescued from sin and restored to perfect freedom from sin's taints, standing "forgiven" in the sight of God in place of executed for our sins.

God's law is still in force.



God's law is still in force today as much as ever. If "force" were to be interpreted as some would have it, then there is no such thing as a requirement of God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God will never force the conscience or will. But you are saying that either you love God, or He will kill you! "No force, no coercion, but if you do not love me (God speaking), I will kill you. In fact, I will torture you, but only as long as you deserve." Green - I don't know this kind of god. That is not the God I worship.

Perhaps you do not yet know well the God you worship. I would not use the term "torture" as flippantly as you have here. However, going by your earlier quote that "all that man can know...," let's have a look at one of Jesus' parables and see if we can see something about this there. It's in Matthew 18.



Jesus didn't use the word "torture." He did use the word "torment." There may be some important differences between the two. "Torture" usually is inflicted upon someone who does not deserve it. That is, at least, the typical English usage. However, we do not see that word used here. In fact, the man deserves all that he gets in this parable. Furthermore, God had forgiven the man, but then rescinds the forgiveness. That is interesting.

Jesus said, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." So, for your own sake, if anything I've said here has you upset, forgive me. If you don't...yes, there is judgment coming according to Jesus' own words.

And Jesus is the God I always desire to serve. I want never to serve any other. His Father is like Him, according to what He taught His disciples. "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

OH - so torture applies to one who "deserves it" is OK. Really? "Love me, or I would torment you, and then kill you".

I will give you another parable of Jesus:
Matthew 13:24-28
24 Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares?
28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. ...

Do you think, that God's character of love, if rejected, will bring on God's character of hatred? God's wrath as defined in Romans 1, is His giving people up to their own choices, and the result is horrible. God will not force anyone to accept His offer of healing (salvation). He will not inflict torment (torture) on those that reject Him. Sin itself pays its wage (Romans 6:23) and sin which IT is full grown, brings forth death, James 1:15. It is not love me or I'll kill you, it is love me, who gave up infinity for you and who desires to heal you, for why should you die? Turn, and live! Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11

You didn't finish the parable. Afraid of the ending?



Jesus identified the various participants in the parable in verses 37-39. The enemy planted the weeds. He is identified as the devil. The weeds are the wicked. Everyone else in the parable is on God's side. The reapers are God's servants. God asks them to cast the wicked into the fire.

According to your view, why does God need to do this? Won't the weeds self-destruct without forcibly placing them into flames? Won't their "DNA" just "self-immolate" or something? And, if this causes them "torment," why is God in charge of it? Why would Jesus the Loving speak such a parable?

God is too good to have no justice. God is too kind to permit sin to endure forever. God is too wise to leave sin to entirely run its own show. God is too loving to let His subjects be left in a sinful world with no help from their Creator and with no justice rendered toward their enemies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

hardly. This parable is only one of a number that support genetic science. "I am the vine, you are the branches" is another. I won't go into the scientific details because I don't think you would be receptive at this time, but it is fantastic. Genesis 3:14-18 is all speaking of genetics. Romans 5, 6 and 7 is all genetics. EGW spoke a lot about sin and heredity (genetics). But it is true, if you don't wear those glasses, you will never see it. Is it essential to understand? What people need to understand is how sin is ingrained in our very being, and that only Christ can remove it. How it is in our very fabric, most will probably not understand in this lifetime.

Who said God has no justice? Who said God will let sin take over the world? Read the book, "The Great Controversy" pages 35 and 36. "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." Who is the author of all disease and suffering? Satan. God is the restorer, Satan is the destroyer. God will be just, and justified in the end.

APL,

We have gone round and round this rugged rock as ragged rascals running more than once on this forum. Wisdom is only found in moderation. Extreme views can never hope to present the full truth. We can paint a picture using only the reds, oranges and yellows, and lose all of the beauty afforded by the blues, greens and purples. In like manner, what you present is often truth, but because it leaves out a much greater amount of truth, becomes a "half-truth." As such, it is become nearly a lie. No one wants to be told but a half-truth.

The full truth is that God is the restorer, as you have painted Him, while at the same time being the presiding Judge over the final judgment of the wicked. The fuller truth takes into its comprehension a breadth of understanding that cannot be seen if one wishes to blind himself or herself to the less disagreeable matters or those which are less easily understood.

God is, neverthless, clear with us. He does not leave us to wonder about His activities, nor of His abhorrence for sin. While He may be merciful, He will not keep His anger forever.



According to Mrs. White, what is to come from God in the future will be nothing like what has ever been seen prior to the close of probation. Always before God's judgments have been mingled with mercy. But not then. There is a day coming when everyone, APL, including you, will see what God's wrath will bring. Whether or not we have chosen to worship God, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, will mean all the difference as to which side we are on then.

May we be ready. Not for the plagues, but for our salvation.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

GC: According to Mrs. White, what is to come from God in the future will be nothing like what has ever been seen prior to the close of probation. Always before God's judgments have been mingled with mercy.

A: Yes, and what has mercy done? Mercy has prevented the full effects of whas Satan has done to be expressed EGW: The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} Do we not make the same mistake when we charge God with inflicting suffering?

GC: But not then. There is a day coming when everyone, APL, including you, will see what God's wrath will bring. Whether or not we have chosen to worship God, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, will mean all the difference as to which side we are on then.

A: I look forward to the day of God, do you? What is God's wrath? READ Romans 1. God's wrath is when He no longer prevents the resulfs that sin brings. And you point out what our choice really is, whether to worship God or not. What would one choose to worship God? To avoid punishment? To gain paradise?


To point out again, the Wrath of God, is God withdrawing His protection. We are seeing it happen...

Don't ignore God's justice.



Ignoring these righteous facts, or portraying them as unrighteous, is sinful. God will execute justice in just exactly the manner He has described. It won't be pleasant for God to do it. But sometimes unpleasant things must be done. Sin is to be cleaned up and removed entirely, Root and branch, from this universe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You continue to misrepresent "the other side". Is this intentional?

There you have it. God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgress (SIN). Mercy, His restraining power, is removed, and the sinner "reaps that which they have sown". That is the answer. All other quotations need to include this one. Take as a whole, the TRUTH is clear. God is not the executioner. There will be a time when He will REMOVE His mercy. And all hell will break loose. Punishment will fall on the guilty. Sin pays it wage - death. It is not execution by God. Making God out to be the executioner, is the Devil's lie. Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Sorry Green - I reject your picture of God. It is not the God I love, trust and worship.

APL,

I'm not presenting my picture of God. Have you not understood the source of the statements I'm presenting? They are all from God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God says that He will execute judgment and justice. God says that He will cause the death of those who hate Him.



Why does God say He will do this, APL? If Satan were actually the one doing it, would that not make God a liar? Would you represent Satan as being the one doing that which God has done? Do you think this would be a correct representation? Do you accept that God kills?

As a child, I memorized the entire chapter from which the following three verses are extracted. God LOVES judgment--which will include the preservation of the righteous and the removal of the wicked.



It is to be noted that the righteous will speak of judgment. It is no sin to talk about the judgment.



David knew and wrote of the truth. I accept the full Word of God in believing it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No - it is your interpretation of the scripture. You have chosen one way to view scripture, as I use to, and you can not see another possibility. I'll give another example from scripture, then I drop this thread as I see no use in continuing.
Deuteronomy 32:22-30
22 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains.
23 " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them. [who will bring on endless disasters?]
24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them. [who will send the wild animals?]
25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared.
26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them. [who has destroyed them?]
27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.'
28 "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all.
29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. [what did they fail to see?]
30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up. [HOW did God bring on all this disaster?]

Did the judgements of God come directly from Him? NO. As it said in GC-36, God is not the executioner, but He leaves people to themselves, to reap the natural results of SIN.

How does God execute judgement? Satan is the liar. Isaiah 5:20 Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil.
I have no problem talking about the judgement, know how God is involved.

I'll pray for you brother.

Hi everyone, I haven't been here for a long time but have come back to ask some questions and then saw this topic. God asks us to reason with Him concerning our sins and of coarse everything else. So I reason things through with Him and have understood something that may help in this discussion.

Point one of several: God is love. Would God, who is the very essence meaning and expression of love create evil? I say no and will explain shortly. But let's say He did; So God who is love creates evil, what does evil do? It destroys life, spreads selfishness and hate and is a constant reminder to God of how bad a choice He made in creating evil. Sounds like God isn't perfect then. Why would He create evil and then tell His people not to be evil. But wait they are born evil. Sounds like God has some problems to deal with.

Let's take this a step further into insanity. Let's say that God was first evil and then created love or became love. Well hold on a second, evil would never create love, because it would be creating it's own demise or death. Evil likes to inflict evil but does not want to be the recipient of evil. So evil would never create love and if that is true then why would love create evil?

When we read that God creates evil it is not saying He created it, it means that He is permitting it. After all God's will is not being done here as it is in heaven. If He didn't create(originate) it the why would He create it? (sounds confusing I know)

Evil only comes by the lack of love just as darkness comes by the lack of light and death comes by the lack of life.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

While God does send judgments on the wicked and will send them again in the future, it is evil to those who are the recipients of the judgments but to God and His people it is justice. God is not raging in anger because He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and always want them to repent so they can be saved.

Saying that God created evil is saying that God created sin and that is very wrong.

Normal - if you do not Love God, will He then kill you? What causes the death of a sinner? God?

There question you ask is based on an error. God does not kill anyone because they don't love Him. Christ came to reveal the love of God to a dying world a world that is destined to extinction and He offers us a way out so that if we chose, we can escape the 2nd death and live for ever. What a merciful God, what a cost to Him to have provided us with such a loving offer when He could have just let us die.

When Jesus returns the wicked, those who refused to be saved, will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, this is clearly written in the Bible.

After the time of reviewing the cases of men and angels and meeting out their judgment with Christ, the new Jerusalem will come down to this earth. (after the 1000 years) Then every knee will bow and the wicked will then acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. Shortly after that Satan will tempt them to overtake the New Jerusalem but God will appear and then fire will comes down from heaven and devour them.

Everyone will have had a chance and choice to accept God's Son and live or reject Him and die. God is only giving us all that we have chosen. Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Norman

Ah, but Norman, if you have read others that post here, they say that it is God that inflicts the punishment in the end. God kills the sinner. That sin is not the cause of the death of a sinner, but God is. That God the Father EXECUTED Christ in order to pay the penalty of sin. I agree, that the glory that gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

APL,

How is it that you agree that the glory that gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked? Is that glory "sin?" You have always held to its being "sin" that kills the wicked heretofore. I don't understand. What is this "glory" you speak of?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

How is it that the righteous can live in God's glory? Obviously that glory is not cause of death to those free of sin. So what kills the unrighteous? Sin. Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil; To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

God is not the executioner. Sin kills the sinner. The same glory that imparts life in the righteous, will slay the wicked. It is the same glory. What is the difference? SIN. You must get rid of sin. If you hang onto sin, it will kill you. Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. We live in a veiled, dark world.

Well, I actually agree with most of that, but it leaves one critical piece of the puzzle out of the equation: God's justice.

Why does Satan burn for "days" while some are destroyed "in a moment?" Why does having more sin mean that you live longer in God's glory?

That's the piece of the puzzle that you are not accounting for. It goes back to an error in your definitions: You have arbitrarily decided that "justice" is evil, therefore God does not execute it. But it is actually "righteous." God does no evil. He is righteous. The things He does are right and good--including punishing the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC - Where I have ever defined justice as evil. This is again a demonstration of you twisting the facts. Executing justice, and Execution are two different things. Justice is doing the right thing. To you, justice is infliction of deserved punishment. What purpose does torture serve one who is going to die? Torture which you say sin can not cause, but God has to inflict.

Have you read pages 35 and 36 in The Great Controversy? How do you understand that page? I'd really like to know. These pages contain quotes like this, "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." and like this, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". Are not these statements clear??????

Just saw your post truthseeker. I do not rely only on KJV. I do have multiple studying tools to help me do source word (Hebrew and Greek) study.

I have not heard of the Lamsa's translation and will look into it. Tx for sharing this.

Maybe the "infliction of deserved punishment" is not only my idea of justice.



God's idea of justice involves deserved punishment. (If that punishment were undeserved, it would be unfair, and God would be in the wrong.) This is why God decreed the punishment that would come to Adam and Eve should they eat of the forbidden tree. Nor are Adam and Eve alive today, but have died at the word of the Lord. If they have been faithful, they will enter Heaven at last, for Jesus took their punishment upon Himself. But for those who do not accept Christ's atonement for them, they will bear their own guilt and punishment. This is part of God's justice.

Regarding GC 35 & 36, the context is clearly that of the manner in which God treats sinners now or formerly--specifically, the context is that of the Jewish people and their rejection of Christ. They had committed the greatest of all sins. Yet God did not then send down plagues from heaven upon them. Why? Because all of His judgments prior to the close of probation were to be mingled with mercy. After probation's close, this world will see events that will be astonishing and more severe than ever before witnessed.

God is the Master of the Universe. He is in charge. To God be the glory!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

gree, you ignored one important word in my comment, "inflict". Yes, sinner will die, the question is why. Does sin kill or does God kill the sinner. You're making your point clear, God executes sinners.

GC 35/36. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". You say there is a context issue. What is the sentence for trangression of the law, Romans 6:23? Death. 1st or 2nd? 2nd. The first death is not the sentence for transgression of the law. Yes, it is a result of transgression, but it is not the final answer. Continue with the quote, "Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}" So what is the context? It is not just the Jews rejection of Christ, but the destruction of Jerusalem is a demonstration of the punishment that will fall on the guilty. And how was God involved with the destruction of Jerusalem? Read the quote again!!! God withdrew His protection, His protection is His mercy. Great Controversy pages 35 and 36 speak to us now and also tells us who is the acting subject at the close of probation. It is Satan rule and not God that inflict the last plagues. God's mercy, His restraining work is withdrawn, and all hell breaks loose.

Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The four angels have power to hard the earth. How will they harm the earth? The stop holding back the winds. When their protection is withdrawn, then we will see Satan's work, and it is not pretty. It will be horrible. God is not the one causing the strife, Satan is.

APL,

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression…. {DD 16.4}

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

Have you properly taken into consideration the full context of Mrs. White's statement regarding the Jews? If so, how is it that you are not surprised at not seeing ALL sinners equally destroyed as were the Jews in Jerusalem? Why were they destroyed, but sinners in Rome, Egypt, Corinth, Nineveh, etc. were not? If you refer to the second death, why are not these cities equally judged? Is not any sin, however small, worthy of death? Why is Jerusalem so singularly destroyed?

Attempting to extend the context beyond where it is wont to go opens up a can of worms.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

green - I think the statement of EGW answers your question, Jerusalem is an example. The whole Jewish experience is an example. Did you ignore the these 2 sentences? "Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}"

God does not cause sin, right? God does not tempt us to sin, right? He has nothing to do with sin, right?

Then how does God's hatred of sin have any part in the matter, for you say that God does not kill, only sin does. Now, if sin is involved in doing something here, and God does not cause sin or promote it in any way, how would God be involved in the destruction of Jerusalem?

Why is it "punishment?" If God merely withdrew His protection, but had no other involvement beyond this, why should it be called "punishment?" Why not simply "consequences?"

Punishment is active, whereas consequences are passive. Punishment is the result of voluntary action, whereas consequences are involuntary. So why "punishment?"

If the destruction of Jerusalem came as a result of God's withdrawn protection, and God had no other involvement beyond this, then how could it have been termed "punishment?" Does Satan "punish" his followers? Does sin "punish?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Have your read Great Controversy pages 35 and 36? Does it say God actively destroyed Jerusalem? Where? EGW statement on page 35 says, "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." This is Satan's claim. How is it any different than what you are saying?

Hi APL,
I really didn't read any of the other posts. I just posted what I know to be true about God. The idea that God executed Christ in order to pay for the penalty of sin sounds a little pagan to me.

Pagans would appease their gods and execute, kill or sacrifice people. God was in Christ so there would be no executing. Also, Jesus was the sin bearing sacrifice who willingly gave His life. In dying as our sacrifice He made a way for us to escape the death we were all destined to.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It does say in Isaiah that it pleased God to bruise Him but there a big difference between bruise and execute. What God did was to allow sin to kill His Son, He died of a broken heart. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Norman

Norman - Bingo - I love you man. Yes, the idea that God needs to be appeased, or that God needs to kill someone is very pagan. Yet, it is the foundation of perhaps the majority of Christians today, even SDAs.

EGW says, "sin caused the death of the Son of God." Sin. Not God. But read some of the latest threads here, and you will find that it was God that executed Christ.

Norman - check out Isaiah 53:10 in the Septuagint.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:10 LXX And the LORD desires to purify him of the plague, if you would give him a sin offering, your soul will see long-lived posterity, and the Lord desired to take away.

You didn't answer my questions. Do you have answers?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is written: "James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin when it has matured, brings forth death."

Now - how about answering some of my questions, if you can.

You are still trying to imply that sin will punish of itself, without God's involvement. But God will punish.



As it was in the days of Noah...

APL, your theology is a fulfillment of this prophecy. Yet God will punish. Perhaps not yet, but punishment will come.



So, Moses "looked forward to the time when God shall arise to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." It sounds certain to me. Why do you attribute to "sin" that which God will do?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What you reject is the method of that punishment. Read Great Controversy 35 and 36. It is very plain there.

You say God executed Christ.

A few quotes from my collection:

You haven't been paying attention. I'm not the one saying it. Here's another quote.



What is "the wrath of divine justice," APL? What did Jesus endure? Was His a painless, comfortable experience? Where was His greatest agony? Was it not separation from His Father? Yet what came with it? Was it not Death? How, then, is this Death caused? Who put the "sins of the world" upon Jesus if He were perfect and did not deserve them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I have been paying attention. It is you that says God executed God, not EGW. "God destroys no man". Christ was also a man.

WHAT IS THE WRATH OF GOD? Read Romans 1.

When Christ was about to die, what did He say?

My God, my God, why are you torturing me?
My God, my God, why are you burning me?
My God, my God, why are you killing me?

NO. He said:
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus endured "the hiding of his Father's face". That is God's wrath.

EGW also says, and which you seems to be ignoring, that "sin caused the death of the Son of God." {GW92 466.2} for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9} While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4} It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, {RH, November 22, 1892 par. 9}

Why was Abraham asked to kill his son Isaac?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Norman,

I would submit that the word "bruise" here harks back to Genesis 3:15 where the prophecy is given. Jesus was only "bruised" or "crushed" temporarily because He has regained His life. When Satan is punished, it will mean his eternal death--which is why he is to have his head crushed instead of merely his heel. And the prophecy indicates who will crush the serpent.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It might help some of the participants in this discussion to be faithful in studying the present Sabbath School lessons which give a vivid picture of how the minor prophets deal with the wrath of God and the sin problem. Admittedly, this is no food for infants.

What a hateful god some are serving? What pleasures are found in "his" heaven?

The Inquisition?

Looking for the power of the inquisitor?

That's a very interesting translation.

Hi Green,

I agree with what you say. My point is that there's a difference between bruise and execute. I believe that it's not one or the other but both types of punishment. There are times when God does punish and there are times when God withdraws His protection from those who refuse His protection from the roaring lion.

Here's a wonderful statement that clears up the subject for me, it really makes a lot of sense.



Norman

This would go along with the last quote.

Amen. Well said. Praise the Lord for Mrs. White's writings that shed ample light on these questions. Without her writings, we might be foundering in confusion on some of these points.

When I say "execute," perhaps I do not mean it in the modern sense of "capital punishment" so much as in the senses of doing justice, finishing the work, making an end of sin and sinners. Each sinner will receive his or her just punishments just as each one who is saved will receive his or her just rewards. God makes this clear in the book of Revelation among other places. "To every man as his work shall be" is a phrase which would also apply here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The Book of Revelation - perhaps green, you should watch the course on Revelation that Sigve Tonstad is teaching. The lectures are online. You can find the first lecture HERE

Doing justice = doing the right thing. Are you saying God does not use Capital Punishment? YOU have been saying all along that God does use Capital Punishment. YOU say He has to because sin certainly is not the cause of death. Doing the right thing is when God gives each man his freedom. Freedom to destroy themselves by indulging in sin. Sin pays it wage, death. God's wrath is when God gives up the sinner to let sin do what sin does, destroy and kill. Romans 1, James 1:15.

APL,

You can only support such views as you have by ignoring a tremendous weight of evidence to the contrary. You twist what other people say, and especially what God Himself says, so that it can fit your views. You malign the motives particularly. This is exactly what Satan also does. Satan claims that God is unjust, harsh and severe. He says God is "arbitrary." But God is not arbitrary in His judgments. He judges justly. An arbitrary judgment is one that is without good reason. But God has plenty of reason. His judgments are frequently tempered with mercy so that the sinner does not even receive all that he deserves. When God finally eradicates sin and sinners forever, it will have been no arbitrary act, but one done in the strictest sense of justice, righteousness, fairness and love. Yes, love. God's love demands that He put sinners to death.

The Bible speaks multitudes about God's justice and judgment. They are both part of His love and mercy. It is merciful for God to do what He does, even when that means ending the lives of sinners. This is called His "strange act" by Ellen White because it will be unusual to see God do this. Yet, it is completely in accordance with His character of love. Mrs. White tells us this.

You twist the matter to make it seem as though we think God takes delight in "torturing" the sinners. This makes it seem as though God must have some hideous, Satanic expression on His face as sinners burn in hell. Nothing could be further from the truth. God takes no delight in their deaths. Just the same, they must die. They must receive their wages for sin, for they have not accepted the atonement of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf through obedience to His commandments. Their punishment and death is completely in line with God's righteous character of love.

I believe that this two-fold unity between God's love and God's justice is part of the third angel's message. Until we understand it properly, we will never be able to give the trumpet a "certain sound" in proclaiming the message as we ought.

I will be first to acknowledge that I am not always a good Christian. I do not always represent God the way I should. I may not always portray His character in its proper light. Nonetheless, I am fully persuaded of these things which I attempt to share with you here. These are truths, important truths, not only for me and you, but for all people.

Consider this portion of the third angel's message:



The message actually starts with this important foundational truth that the "wrath of God" will be "poured out without mixture," meaning without mercy, upon anyone who has worshiped the beast or his image. Why start here? This is an important thing. It is part of an important message.

Satan is campaigning hard against this message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In fact, as I have already said before, I don't see a great difference between killing the sinner and giving up the sinner knowing that this will result in his death. This is aggravated by the fact that God will raise the sinner so that he may be destroyed by sin. So I don't see how you can deny an intentional element on God's part in the death of the wicked.

Would you say the Inquisitors had a good reason, at least in their minds? Would you kill me if you had a good reason?

And all those he is torturing will call out?:
We feel Your love. Please, stop loving us so much.

Can you kill someone out of love? Would you kill me out of your love for me?

So you do say He IS going to torture sinners. Tell me, if someone tortures someone, is it not because he gets some sort of "delight" in doing it?

But the question is, do sinners die as a cause and effect of their sin or is it because God kills them? Do you, as some say, believe that sin would have killed the sinner, but God steps in before that happens, tortures them, and then kills them before sin would have? If that is not taking delight in it, I don't know what would be.

Do you believe Hitler took delight in torturing people before finally killing them or was that, "showing his love"?

What's the purpose of punishment? Does it fit here?

So you say love is not "justice". You imply justice is the opposite or opposed to love. Therefore, God could not be executing justice out of love, right?

What is "justice"? Use Biblical definitions, not yours.

Many who use your argument equate this with God pulling the plug, and letting the patient (sinner) die. When in reality, this is not what God does. God stopped putting the plug back in. We are continually pulling the plug, and He puts it back in. In the end, when all the questions are answered, God will say to the sinner, "thy will be done".

What is usually ignored in all this, is that who is on trial? Us? Yes. Anyone else? YES. God is on trial. God is being judged. This is the basis of what is called the Great Controversy. Controversy over what? God and His government and character. Roman 2:4 says it is the kindness of God that draws us to repentance. Romans 3:4 says may you prevail when YOU are judged. EGW {DA 58.1} says "God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection."

I'm glad you see the disconnect in raising the sinner in order that God can then punish/torture/kill the sinner. That makes God out to be a severe judge, and exacting creditor, with stern justice. There has to be another reason that sinners are raised.

AFAIK, they will be raised to face judgment, and the weight of their sins, in the light of God's glory, will kill them.

It is also my understanding that they will be raised to face judgement and the execution of that judgement, which is referred to as part of the executive phase of the IJ.

It's when they receive the wages of sin, which is the 2nd death in the Lake of Fire.

Why else would they be raised back to life?

I haven't seen a good response from APL on that question yet. I think I've seen him trying to say that it is the second death that is the one caused by sin--but I'm not sure what he was saying, because it didn't make a lot of sense to me. If the second (or third) death is the one that is caused by "sin," what causes the first one?

I don't think he can answer this one easily.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you think they are raised to serve as examples for those who are saved? Sin doesn't raise a second time, so maybe some fear in the saved will prevent it?

Or does it answer some question about a 2nd chance?

Do you have a specific reason for asking such a question? How is that related to this subject?

I don't think it is to be an example to the saved, particularly. Although that's an interesting thought that had never occurred to me. I think it is more of a "tying up loose ends" in terms of putting a final finish to sin. Those who have been found on God's side receive their rewards, and those on the enemies' side receive theirs. Their reward is not sufficiently "just" in their first death.

For example, what kind of havoc did Hitler create? What kinds of torture, experimentation, and death did he cause for millions of people? Yet how did he die? His death was rather painless and quick. Is this "just?" Does it really matter to us how he died? Does it matter to the watching universe? to God? I think it does. I think justice needs to be served. God tells us that vengeance is His, and that He will repay.



God is not satisfied with a lack of judgment and justice. He is a God of justice and judgment, along with grace, mercy and truth. All of these are components of "love."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You really think it would do anybody any good to raise Hitler just to torture him? Really?

APL and Green...you guys are off-topics. I don't know how far back this started, but I've been waiting for you to get back to the discussion. This is about if the Lord Create Evil or permits it.

Yes, Elle. Somehow, everything that God creates or permits has to do with DNA and the fact that God will never punish. At least, that is the way APL seems to approach every subject, including this one.

If you wish to persuade APL that God could "create evil," you will need first to dissuade him from some of his present ideas.

It is possible that the phrase "create evil" in Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV is not the best translation. It may be that another translation would have been better.

On the other hand, I think God also takes ultimate responsibility for all that has happened under Him. After all, He is the King of the Universe. He created the possibility of evil by allowing His creatures the freedom of choice. It seems, simply by doing this, He effectively set up the inevitability of evil, for it seems almost impossible that a perfect universe would continue infinitely without one creature or another choosing against the law of God, especially given the fact that no one then knew what the results of breaking the law would be.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If raising people back to life just to "make 'em pay" isn't advocating torture for the pure enjoyment/benefit of the torturer, I don't know what is.

It's like you are saying God created evil for His enjoyment. And that by doing evil.

kland,

Do you believe God will raise the wicked to life again to face judgment? If so, how do you explain the situation? Why not just leave them in their graves eternally?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

We know EVERYONE who has ever lived will be standing before the white throne judgement after the 1000 years (Rev. 20) It's also plain that those whose names are not in the book of life will perish in the lake of fire.

Why do some take Satan's side -- it is he that declares this to be the ultimate injustice. His plan is to take the city and dethrone God and rule in His place. (thank God that won't happen or there would be no hope for anyone)


The 2nd resurrection is to show once and for all the justice of God.

The fact is that there will be people IN HEAVEN who did some terrible things here on earth. And there will be people lost, who to all appearances lived a pretty decent life.

Probably the most notorious Bible character was Manasseh, he even had the prophet Isaiah gruesomely killed. But he repented and tried to make things right, and God "heard" him!

Why should he be saved, while someone who appeared to be pretty decent is lost?

What if Hitler by a miracle of grace changed and enters heaven? You probably wouldn't be anymore shocked, then when a martyred Israelite sees Manasseh in heaven.

But at the great white throne judgment it will all be revealed. The repentant sinners, who were cleansed and changed by God's grace will be in humble praise before the throne, while outside the lost will reveal that even yet, they would tear God from His throne.

Some teach that God will magically save everyone at that time, but that's not what scripture says. It will be seen that even then there is no repentance of sin in the lost, only an anger that their sinful ways lost out.
It will be shown that Christ did everything possible (outside of force) to save them, but they would not.

Everyone will know why some sinners ended up in heaven, and others not. For all were sinners, but some repented and came to Christ for cleansing while others did not.

Remember -- this great conflict isn't just about people here, it is a drama for the whole universe to understand God's justice and love.

Yes, God created intelligent beings with the power of choice knowing full well that His authority would be challenged.
Rather than program them all like robots, He chose to let events show once and for all time, the stark contrast between His ways, and the ways of rebellion. He did this even though it meant tremendous suffering for HIM, because He died the agonizing death that is ours, in order to bring us into full love and friendship with Himself. "For the joy set before Him He endured the cross" to have beings that loved Him and followed his ways because they were totally convinced it was right, good and wonderful.

There was no other way.

Good question. But if one doesn't have an answer, does that mean he needs to say that God raises them to torture them?

"Be ready always to give an answer..." says the Bible. Of this, Mrs. White says:


So, if you don't have an answer, it is your duty to study this out until you are well able to answer it. This is not a small matter, of no importance. Many in the world have questions about God and His character because of the manner in which Satan has misrepresented Him. They have questions about the judgment. This matter is well worth studying diligently, to God's approval.

If we have an answer, we might be wrong. If we don't have an answer, we cannot be right.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Good advice. Why not err with the answer which puts God in good light?

But you don't have an answer! A non-answer cannot be the right answer.

Personally, I think the answer puts God in the most favorable light possible.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God raises the wicked to punish them, which it can have no other purpose than to impose pain and suffering, and to scare everyone else to not mess with him, is putting God in good light? A pagan god maybe...

A pagan's god has no power to create life, to give life, nor to resurrect the dead. Is it "evil" for God to resurrect the wicked? If so, why? If not, why not?

This whole thread is about whether or not God creates evil. This question seems somewhat related. I don't think anyone here questions that God WILL raise the wicked dead. So the question must be asked, to what purpose?

If "evil" cannot raise anyone from the dead, then God cannot be "allowing" their resurrection. He must be actively involved, not passively permitting. If it is only for evil (pain and suffering) as APL claims, then will God "create evil?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You are right! A pagan god can not create life? Why then to we attach pagan ideas with our God?

Why are you saying I don't have an answer? I gave a suggestion somewhile back. You were asking why did God raise people if it wasn't to torture them. I said if you don't have a good answer, why pick a bad answer.

If Hitler did the same thing, does it put him in the most favorable light possible? Hitler and/or the papacy tortured people almost to the point of death and then revived them so they could be tortured again. What difference from them as you see God doing? Is it because God can "miraculously" keep them alive to "make 'em pay their full penalty"?

APL, I once came across a quote from Ellen White that I don't remember the exact wording and so cannot find it. But the essence of it was something like that the idea of promoting a angry / torturing God has led more men to be come infidels / atheists than any other thing.

kland, perhaps this quote from GC is that you were thinking of? Appalling views include more that just eternal torment.

Find support for this, or you risk making an untrue statement. I infer that you refer to the punishment of hell. But Mrs. White never speaks against that view. If she did, she contradicted herself.

You don't seem to truly accept some of Mrs. White's views. You have called them "pagan" on this forum. But Mrs. White was far from pagan. She was a spokesperson for God. If you do not accept His messages through His chosen instrumentality, you are not accepting God's truth.



Mrs. White draws a distinction between an "eternally burning hell" and that which will last for mere "days."

Do you accept this truth, APL? Do you accept that only after this punishment has been meted out by God to the wicked, the "full penalty of the law" will have been visited and the "demands of justice" met?

If these things seem evil to you, then perhaps Elle is right in this thread that God creates "evil."

I, on the other hand, do not feel that God creates evil, but simply that He takes responsibility for it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

YOU do not accept Ellen White's views. Example GC35/36 you continually deny. I do not call HER view pagan, I call YOUR views pagan.

You call God the accuser of the brethren. But if God is for us, WHO can be against us? Is it Jesus? No. The woman taken in adultery, who was the accuser? God? No. Is God against the wicked in the end? No. But He will not force their love, and love can not be commanded. The wicked die, but it is not execution by God. Jesus proved this by His death. God did not execute Christ.

My experience with universalists such as Elle, is that they accuse God of everything, thus He has to clean up His mess and He will, and all will be saved. Of course, God is not the source of evil.

Lest one of us be found to be a liar, please find the post where I did this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hm - lets see, God raises the wicked to punish them. Obviously then He has judged them and convicted them, now He MUST punish them. And this is not accusing them? Have I got your reasoning wrong? If so, please clarify.

I see. So you cannot find where I said God is the accuser of the brethren. You have no post of mine to quote where I made such a statement.

The fact is, your statement about what I had said was a lie.

Apology requested.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In your mind, does God raise the wicked in order to punish them. If so, then God is the accuser, and executioner. How about Hitler? Now please tell me, that this view does not have God accusing Hitler of sin? You want God to raise Hitler, in order to punish him more, to torture him more. God is not like that. THAT is a pagan view of God, a god that needs to torture his enemies. I have nothing to apologize for.

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This topic is going nowhere constructive. It has deteriorated.

Topic closed, indefinitely, pending administrative review.

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Blessings,

Green Cochoa.