Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Posted By: Rick H

Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/01/13 04:23 PM

Jesus came across someone who asked this same question: "And behold, one came and said unto Him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may eternal life?' And He said unto him, 'Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into life, is it not necessary that we obey God? Is it not necessary that we keep His commandments?

So what was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler..."20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unsaved people cannot truly obey God. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/01/13 06:22 PM

But to pray in Christ's name means much. It means that we are to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works. The Saviour's promise is given on condition. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments." He saves men, not in sin, but from sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience. {DA 668.2}

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
Posted By: Harold Fair

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/01/13 08:36 PM

It is so simple if you only study. 1 John 1:9 is so clear, how can anyone do otherwise and expect to live?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/02/13 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Rick H
The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.

Obedience is the condition of salvation not in the sense that it is the basis of salvation, but that's how real salvation looks like. IOW, obedience does not derive salvation, obedience describes salvation.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/02/13 05:26 AM

I wrote something on the Rich Young Ruler years ago. You can get I here: http://assortedramblings.weebly.com/lessons-from-the-rich-young-ruler.html. The website has better formatting, but I'll paste the text below.

Lessons From the Rich Young Ruler

Matthew 19:16-22
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Mark 10:17-22
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Luke 18:18-23
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

Notice that when the man asked what was required to inherit eternal life, Jesus starts by pointing out that ONLY God is good. In Matthew's account, the man asked, "What good thing shall I do...?" And Christ's response was to get the man to take his eyes off himself to find good, and look to God, the ONLY place we can find good. The first step toward life is to LOOK AT CHRIST.

Christ continues, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments," and gives a list of commands from the Old Testament. The question was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Christ answered by giving a list of commandments. Was He not paying attention to the question? Did He really mean to say that keeping the commandments has something to do with receiving eternal life? Yes, that is what He said.

But how does that reconcile with the first part of His answer, that only God is good? The key is to realize that our keeping of the commandments does not, and cannot, make us good. Even if we kept all the commandments all the time, which is what God requires, it still does not make us good. Note Christ's words, "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." (Luke 17:10) These are good commands from our good God, who only has our good in mind. And Jesus says that even though our keeping them does not make us good, our keeping them is needed if we are to inherit eternal life.

Then why does God require obedience if our obedience does not merit eternal life? It is a matter of ownership. "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34) "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16) Who is our master? Who is our owner? Invariably, our master is the one we obey. And we, being the servants, will reside where our master resides. If our owner is God, obeying His commands, we will live with Him. If our master is Satan, obeying his commands and disobeying God's commands, we will live and die with him.

The Rich Young Ruler has a ready answer, "All these things have I kept from my youth up." In the face of God's requirements, he can say that he has fulfilled them. But does he mean it? Does he believe it himself? He continues, "What lack I yet?" He claims to keep God's commandments, but knows in his heart that he is lacking. Jesus agrees by replying, "One thing thou lackest."

"If thou wilt be perfect," Jesus says, agreeing with the man's admission of incompleteness, "Go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." Here, Jesus begins to reveal how the man's claim of obedience was empty. Among the commands Christ gave was, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." And now, he cites one way of obeying this command. "And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." He claimed to love his neighbor, but when it came time to act on that professed love, he refused. He finally admits to himself and everyone else, through the undeniable evidence of his works, that his claim to obedience was a farce.

But the issue goes much deeper than that. Christ knew that this young man had great possessions, and the command addresses it. Are you willing to give up your earthly treasures for heavenly treasure? Are you willing to give up temporal pleasures for heavenly pleasure? Are you willing to give up your comfortable life for eternal life? The Rich Young Ruler had a choice to make. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24)

But there was an even harder choice to make, because there was a bigger problem. And the words Jesus said next struck squarely at the root of the problem, "Come, take up the cross, and follow me." On one level, this was just an extension of the command to exchange his temporal wealth for eternal wealth. "And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Luke 9:58) To follow Christ meant having none of this world's comforts, but it meant having all of Heaven's promises.

But it is the next level that causes most to turn around and go home grieved. In order to follow Christ, we must "take up the cross." What does the cross mean? It did not just mean discomfort, hardship, and torture. Taking up the cross always meant an ignominious death.

Christ was telling the young man that before he could live, he must die. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 16:25) Moreover, this was not a one-time event. "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23) As long as we want to follow Him, we must take up our cross. If we want to follow him all the time, we must take up our cross all the time.

In what sense do we die? In what sense are we crucified? "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24) "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6) The Old Man, our flesh, the part of us that "wars against the soul" is to be crucified whenever we want to follow Christ. And the result is that we come to the place where "henceforth we should not serve sin." Of the experience of crucifying the Old Man, Paul writes, "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:20-22) "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:21-24) "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:4-7) This is what Jesus wanted the Rich Young Ruler to do.

So we see that Christ's command to "take up the cross" is just a reiteration of the idea of ownership. It is just another way of saying, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

But He doesn't stop there. He continues with, "Follow me." There are several aspects of following, and we will cover just a few of them here. To follow someone means to go where he is going, or where he has gone. Jesus has gone to Heaven, and that is where we want to go. "Take up the cross, and follow me," is exactly the answer the Rich Young Ruler asked for. He wanted to know what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. Christ's answer was, "Crucify your Old Man with its fleshly lusts, and you can be with me in Heaven."

To follow someone means to do what he is doing, or what he did. Jesus testified of Himself, "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29) He always pleased the Father; He always obeyed. As we saw from the writings of Paul - the Apostle to the Gentiles, the great advocate of righteousness by faith - when we crucify the flesh, we rise up to walk in newness of life. When the Old Man is put to death, the New Man is born, which is "created in righteousness and true holiness." When we are freed from the slavery of sin, we become slaves of God, to obey Him. In essence, Jesus said, "When you crucify the flesh, you can be with Me in obeying God."

But the most fundamental aspect of following someone is this: We must look at the one we are following. If we are not looking, we won't know where to go. If we are not looking, we won't know what to do. Christ's command to "Follow Me," entails the first and foremost step toward gaining eternal life: LOOK AT CHRIST. Again, this is just a reiteration of what Jesus already said.

We see here a Jewish way of emphasizing a point: Say the same thing twice, in different ways. (We can find many examples in the poetic books of the Bible, such as Proverbs and Isaiah.) The Rich Young Ruler asks, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" The answer is given, "Look at God and obey Him." The young man says, "I've done that." The truth is brought out, "You have not obeyed because you do not love your neighbor as yourself." And the requirements for life are given again, "Look at God and obey Him."

Backing up a little bit, we will notice that the Rich Young Ruler did not really know what he was asking for. He asked, "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He seemed to be eager to have eternal life. But what is "eternal life"? "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) To know God, the Father and the Son, is the essence of eternal life. Christ, knowing this, gave him what he asked for. "You want eternal life? Leave everything and be with Me."

Many think that eternal life is having a never-ending life. But Satan has invented the doctrine that sinners will live forever while being tortured in Hell; that's not the eternal life I want. God has so much more in mind. The eternal life that He promises is quality, not just quantity. It is a life of joy in obedience, that lasts forever. It is a never-ending life spent with Christ. "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

By saying, "Follow Me," Jesus offered the Rich Young Ruler the opportunity to have the kind of eternal life that is truly satisfying. But the young man showed that he did not really want that kind of eternal life. He exchanged eternal life for his temporal life.

What lessons can we learn from this story? Here are some:

  • Claiming obedience to God does not necessarily mean it is true.
  • If we are to have life, we must look at Christ.
  • If we are to have life, we must crucify the Old Man and forsake sin.
  • When we crucify the Old Man, the New Man is born.
  • When we stop being Satan's slave by obeying him, we can start being God's slave by obeying Him instead.
  • Wanting to be saved does not necessarily mean being willing to do what it takes to be saved.
  • Eternal life is not just living a long time; it is living RIGHT a long time.


There is one more lesson from the Rich Young Ruler.

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions." (Mark 10:21-22)

Jesus loved the Rich Young Ruler, and His love for him led Him to say what He did: 1) He revealed the man's deficiency, and 2) He told the man how to overcome it. In His love for the young man, Christ supplied everything he needed to be saved.

But the problem was not with God's love; it was with the man's love. Did the Rich Young Ruler have love? Of course he did. But the object of his supreme love was improper. He loved God enough to go to Jesus asking what he must do to live with God forever. But he proved that he loved his possessions more than he loved God. When made to choose to be with God or with his possessions, he chose to stay with his possessions.

As usual, the issue goes deeper than that. Many of us do not need to choose between God and our possessions because we do not have substantial possessions. But we all have to choose between righteousness and sin. We can say God loves us and we love God. We can say we want righteousness and don't want sin. But like the Rich Young Ruler, regardless of our profession, our action will reveal our true choice. Regardless of what we say, what we do will reveal our true love.

Not only that, but what we do will reveal our destiny. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2Corinthians 5:10) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12)

Clearly, it is not a matter of whether or not we have love in our hearts. The question is, Who and what do our hearts love? And that question is infallibly answered by our actions.

Do our actions testify that we are owned by God or owned by Satan? Do our actions reveal that we love righteousness or sin? Jesus said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16) According to our fruits, what is our root? John the Baptist said, "And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Luke 3:9)

If the evidence shows that we have the wrong fruit, that we have the wrong root, that we have the wrong owner, that we have the wrong destiny, rejoice that there is still hope. All we have to do is choose today whom we will serve.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/03/13 05:54 AM

Thank you for posting this, Arnold. It was very good.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/10/13 04:29 AM

Are we not saved by grace and judged by our works, as in obedience, or disobedience?
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/10/13 05:30 AM

Obedience is required. How can we obey?
Originally Posted By: EGW
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/11/13 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Are we not saved by grace and judged by our works, as in obedience, or disobedience?

Yes, we are saved by grace. "For by grace you have been saved..." Ephesians 2:8 Grace "causes" salvation.

Yes, we are judged by our works, whether obedience or disobedience. "They were judged, each one according to his works." Revelation 20:13 Works "cause" our judgment, whether good or bad.

But what "causes" good works? IOW, what makes us obey? "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age..." Titus 2:11-12 Grace causes obedience.

Both obedience and salvation result from the same cause - grace. There is a strong correlation between obedience and salvation, but the relationship is not causal.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/11/13 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
There is a strong correlation between obedience and salvation
Yes! So strong, that the purpose of the plan of salvation is to restore man back to where he can and will obey the law. This is done by grace, and grace as the Bible defines it, which is His knowledge of how to solve the problem. "The essence of the gospel is restoration".
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/12/13 12:09 AM

To be redeemed is to cease from sin.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/12/13 08:21 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
To be redeemed is to cease from sin.

I'm not so sure. While I think I may be able to understand the spirit of what you are saying, it is not in agreement with the letter of the law, as I see it.

For example:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Let the redeemed of the LORD say [so], whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; (Psalm 107:2)


I don't think you would feel anyone should run around saying he or she had ceased to sin. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/12/13 09:29 AM

If our minds are controlled by the Holy Spirit, we shall understand the lesson taught by the parable of the leaven. As the leaven operates on the meal, so the Holy Spirit operates on the human heart, absorbing all the capabilities and powers, bringing soul, body, and spirit into conformity to Christ. Man cannot make this change. It can be made only by the Holy Spirit. In those who submit to the control of the Spirit, new thoughts, new feelings, new purposes are awakened. The mind is changed; the faculties are set to work. . . . {5MR 346.3}

The moment we surrender ourselves to God, believing in Jesus we have the righteousness of Christ. We realize that we have been redeemed from sin, and appreciate His sacrifice to purchase our freedom. . . . This sanctification we must all experience, else we can never gain eternal life. It is obtained by a union with Christ, a union which no power of Satan can break. Christ demands undivided heart-service, the entire use of mind, soul, heart, and strength.--Manuscript 68, 1898, pp. 2, 6-9. ("The Leaven of Truth," June 9, 1898.) {5MR 346.4}
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/12/13 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: asygo
To be redeemed is to cease from sin.

I'm not so sure. While I think I may be able to understand the spirit of what you are saying, it is not in agreement with the letter of the law, as I see it.

For example:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Let the redeemed of the LORD say [so], whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; (Psalm 107:2)


I don't think you would feel anyone should run around saying he or she had ceased to sin. smile

To be redeemed means to cease from sin. {RH, September 25, 1900 par. 10}

Given that, there is surely a sense in which it is true. smile

But you are right that I would not be comfortable with the idea of someone claiming they had ceased from sin. From the cross to the crown there is wrestling with inbred sin, warfare against outward wrong. Therefore, there is also a sense in which our sin remains while we are on this side of immortality.

I conclude that there are different kinds of redemption, and also different levels of redemption. Similarly, there are different kinds of ceasing from sin, and also different levels. So, while it is true that anyone who says he has no sin is deceived, it is also true that whoever is born of God does not sin.

Language is not nearly as precise as mathematics. wink
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/12/13 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
inbred sin
How does that work? Explain further.

Originally Posted By: asygo
I conclude that there are different kinds of redemption, and also different levels of redemption. Similarly, there are different kinds of ceasing from sin, and also different levels. So, while it is true that anyone who says he has no sin is deceived, it is also true that whoever is born of God does not sin.
There is only one level of redemption - ceasing to sin. I suspect those that do cease from sin (144,000?) will still not trust themselves and would never claim it this side of the second coming.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/13/13 02:37 AM

There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/13/13 05:30 AM

Originally Posted By: EGW by asygo
There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}

AMEN
Originally Posted By: EGW/GC
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless. {GC 620.2}
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/14/13 01:17 AM

Been blotted out from where?
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/14/13 01:47 AM

Sins can not be brought back to remembrance. Explore that thought - in the second life, David and Bathsheba are speaking together and along come Uriah. Will David and Bathsheba remember their deeds? Next comes Solomon and sees Bathsheba and says hi Mom! Uriah sees the man and says, I did not have a son, when were you born. He discovers he was born 6 months after his own death. Awkward moment! Will they remember their "sins"? Will everyone forget their past? The saved get to heaven but have no idea why? Is behavior sin? Is the act of murder and adultery the sin? Or are these "sins" little "s", which are symptoms of the disease "Sin" big "S".

The disease Sin, has bad behavior, but as in medicine, if you treat the symptoms without treating the disease, your symptoms might not go away and you might get more of them. You have to treat the disease, and guess what? The bad behaviors go away.

There is no legal method of making sin go away. You can't legislate it. A person needs a new heart and right spirit. Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/14/13 03:04 AM

So I guess you are saying the sins are blotted out from heaven.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/14/13 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
So I guess you are saying the sins are blotted out from heaven.
What do you think blotting out of sin is, and what is actually forgotten?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/15/13 06:58 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: EGW by asygo
There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}

AMEN

Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so.

Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/15/13 07:57 AM

The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin. For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah. What did God tell Moses? No man can see my face and live! Imposed penalty? Nope. Intrinsic. When we are change,

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The only way to see Him, is to be like Him. And we can only be like Him by what He does for us. By His knowledge, His grace, He can save us, heal us, if we want Him.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/15/13 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: EGW by asygo
There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}

AMEN

Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so.

Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so.
No, I would disagree. Sin is the action on the temptation when we possess it not when Satan poses it. God warned Cain that sin was at his door and he could have turned away from it and not have sinned, but he let it fester till he had killed Abel long before the actual blow.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin.

So "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" are only hereditary? Cultivated tendencies to evil are not hereditary.

And Jesus had these "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil"? I disagree.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah.

There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. {CT 20.2}

So you're saying that Enoch, Moses, and Elijah no longer had "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" upon translation?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: asygo
Do "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" count as sin? I think so.

Did Enoch have them when he was translated? I think so.
No, I would disagree. Sin is the action on the temptation when we possess it not when Satan poses it.

The quote is not talking about Satan's temptations. It's talking about "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil" - internal temptations.

Did Jesus have "hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil"?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 08:17 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The tendencies are caused by sin - they are heredity. Jesus shared our heredity, but never participated in its sin. For Enoch to be in the presence of God, he would have had to have sin removed. Same for Moses and Elijah. What did God tell Moses? No man can see my face and live! Imposed penalty? Nope. Intrinsic. When we are change,

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The only way to see Him, is to be like Him. And we can only be like Him by what He does for us. By His knowledge, His grace, He can save us, heal us, if we want Him.


This is dangerous heresy, though you may be oblivious to what you are saying/implying. This theory is highly dangerous, and many have accepted it to their eternal damnation. I grieve to think people should accept such falsehood.

Let me make three points:

1) Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. (EGW) Not every one who says "Lord, Lord!" will be saved. (Jesus) We can "want Him" all the way to hell. Wanting is no antidote for sin, and no escape from it. We must do more than "want."

2) We might be changed in our physical form when we are transfigured before Christ at His coming, but our character is not changed. Those who assume they must wait until Christ comes to receive a Heaven-worthy character are duping themselves--to their eternal loss.

Two quotes to support this:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." It is those that have done good who will come forth to the resurrection of life. The question of most importance to us is, How can we do good? The greatest good that we can do is to help one another to become earnest followers of Christ, and in the day of God we shall be able to render no excuse for not doing good to those around us. We are to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves, and the Lord Jesus Christ has provided means by which we may fulfill the conditions upon which we may obtain eternal life. We cannot do evil, and work wickedness, and yet stand justified before God at last. Now is our day of probation, and we are now to perfect characters that will stand the test of the judgment. When Christ comes, there is to be no change of character; this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption; and those who are alive and remain upon the earth will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, if their characters are blameless and pure. Transformation of character must take place during the precious hours of probation. {ST, August 29, 1892 par. 1}

And...
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Our words and actions in the home bear testimony to our true character, and they are recorded in the books of heaven. The daily acts of life tell the measure and mould of our disposition and character. Where there is a lack of home religion, a profession of faith is valueless. Then let no unkind words fall from the lips of those who compose the home circle. Make the atmosphere fragrant with tender thoughtfulness of others. Only those will enter heaven who in probationary time have formed a character that breathes a heavenly influence. The saint in heaven must first be a saint upon earth. The habits of speech, the character of our actions, put a mould upon us; and that which we cultivate in our association with others in this life, goes down into the grave with us, and will be unchanged when we come up from the grave. Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ; but there will be no conversion of heart at his appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above. {ST, November 14, 1892 par. 8}


3) God does not do it all for us. We must do our part. "God works, and man works." (EGW)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 09:26 AM

You call it heresy but do not say what is the heresy.

I'm sure I've quoted the following before on this forum.
Originally Posted By: EGW
If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas.{2SM 32.2}

And from the science, I can say an unequivocal AMEN. Do you see horror in the flesh Green? You say there is no sin in the flesh, so how is there any horror in the flesh?

Quote:
The Scriptures teach us to seek for the sanctification to God of body, soul, and spirit. In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul. {2SM 32.3}


Originally Posted By: EGW
When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .  {2SM 33.3} 
Note - the results are no wholly removed until the second coming. This results must also be removed. What is removed? The science has good data on this. NOTE - the science has good data on what pushes us to have the tendencies to sin. Christ who came in the same sinful (full of sin) flesh that we have developed a perfect character. He was able to quiet all the temptations, and never participated in the sin of the flesh.
Originally Posted By: EGW
"The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. {DA 123.3}

Originally Posted By: green
3) God does not do it all for us. We must do our part. "God works, and man works." (EGW)
So it is not just a legality on which we are saved, there is hard work to do. And as I've quoted before from Steps to Christ, it is the hardest battle ever fought, the battle against self.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 09:34 AM

The heresy that was lurking just below the statements you were making in your prior post, APL, was simply this concept that we cannot have perfect characters before Christ's coming and the transfiguration that will take place at that time. Many believe this heresy. I cannot.

You did not come out and say this in clear words, but your thoughts appeared to be trending in that direction. Let none be deceived on this matter. It is our opportunity to prepare for heaven NOW. We need not wait for either the latter rain or for the transfiguration at Christ's coming to be perfect.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 09:39 AM

Regarding the "flesh," that term encompasses our entire mortal bodies. Our mind is a part of our body. We are told that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We are told to avoid the "lust of the flesh." The flesh is full of temptation and weakness. We will ever have temptations as long as we remain on this sinful planet. But temptations are not the same thing as sin. It is our privilege to resist temptation, and be more than conquerors.

This side of the transfiguration, our bodies will remain flawed. But our bodies are not the same thing as our characters. We may have a perfect character within a flawed mortal body--even as Christ Jesus had--without propensities toward sin.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/16/13 10:51 AM

Was Christ's body flawed? From birth or only in Gethsemane?

How does the flesh produce temptations?

You say, our bodies are not the same as our characters, OK, EGW says, "The body is a most important medium through which the mind and the soul are developed for the upbuilding of character." EGW says the body is "polluted with sin", note the term, with sin, not by sin. (See GC 644.3) How is the body "polluted with sin"?
Posted By: Norman

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/17/13 03:25 AM

This answers the original question quite well.

"The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,—just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,—perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God’s law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.” Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, “It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works—works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us. {SC 63.1}"
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/17/13 05:56 PM

Thank you, Norman. So two things happen.

If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake 1) you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

2) More than this, Christ changes the heart.
Posted By: Norman

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/18/13 01:44 AM

Quote:
2) More than this, Christ changes the heart.

and He gives us power to live a righteous life of love and faith.

Norman
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? - 06/18/13 04:22 AM

Yes. This is wonderful.
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