Does God Punish? (Part 2)

Was Satan referring to the "law of life" when he said that it needed to be changed? Was this the law that he said was "arbitrary"?

Does this law have any specific commandments?

But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalms 40:8. {MB 109.2}

Did The angels have to worry about Adultery? Nope.

Wait!
>>>Self<<< fulfilling? You sure about that?

Do you think the angels when around thinking, Oh, I have to worship God and give Him glory, it is the law. Or did they do it naturally? Did they need to be reminded what that law was? Go back to the quote of EGW: "the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of." What were the angels thinking here? God's law is written into the very fabric of their being. Transgression of physical law is transgression of the moral law. God's law is written on every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being. You can't change what God has made. This is what Satan tried to do. He put aside God's authority and tried to make himself "better". This you can not do. He corrupted Adam and Eve, changing them from the way they were created. And ALL life on this planet has been affected.

This is not something physical. It belongs to the spiritual realm.

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {6BC 1093.2}

He preserves the stamp of our character in His memory (and our identity, our memories, our feelings, etc.) - IOW, all the contents of our mind.

Memory is not an immaterial thing, it is made up of matter, the arrangement of neurons, the interconnections, etc. It is all physical and real.

Our memories are stored in physical structures of the brain, but they are not these physical structures. The brain is where our life experiences are stored, but our brain is not our life experiences. We are the result of our conscious choices, of our interactions with others, with the world, and with God; this is completely real, but not physical.
The human mind is shrouded in mystery, but I would say that if you were to sustain a head injury which destroyed your frontal lobes, your personality might change, and you might exhibit even bad character traits, but it's interesting that God wouldn't hold you responsible for that. This happened to James White after a stroke.

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind. {2T 347.2}

If we are all damaged, why won't God save everybody? And why would God preserve a damaged physical structure for the resurrection?

And why would God preserve a damaged physical structure for the resurrection?

So its not physical, it is not "real"?

but it is not immaterial, it is real.

There are many things we do not understand. ... Are there things in the physical world we do not understand? Yes.

When someone proposes a theory, you expect a mechanism or else face your ire. And should anyone question the validity of one of your cherished beliefs (genetic sin, epigenetics, ...), you manifest a spirit diametrically opposed to your current humble claim that "there are many things we do not understand."

Can you give me an examples any thing which is not physical?

And you have defined spiritual yet. Start there....

Interesting.... If someone creates a theory, most people usually have a reason behind it. And are you saying we should not have a mechanism to supports one's theory? Sorry - that makes no sense to me... My "cherished beliefs", I'm only reading the Bible with the science I know. And it is speaking volumes.

- God created the heaven and the earth.
- The Word was made flesh.

Do you believe these theories? Do you know the mechanism through which these were accomplished? If you are really sorry about wasting everyone's time, answer these so we can make some progress.

That was so not an answer to my question. Care to try again?

- God created the heaven and the earth.
- The Word was made flesh.

Do you believe these theories? Do you know the mechanism through which these were accomplished? If you are really sorry about wasting everyone's time, answer these so we can make some progress.

That's the second longest "I don't know" I've ever seen.

BTW - I'll take your reply to mean you have no idea how Sin causes all life to have disease and die.

I feel the love...

Do you know the mechanism God used to create the heaven and the earth, or how the Word was made flesh?

So say you. Have you done a double-blind experiment to prove your theory? That's the gold standard in the scientific world.

Your kidding, right? There are more types of studies than double blind. IN fact, some systems are so complex, that random, double-blind studies are impossible! Or how about epidemiological studies? Shall we do a double-blind experiment the next time an ebola outbreak happens to find the cause? Would that be even ethical? There are many different study types besides double-blind. Treatment studies can be blind or not blind. They can be double-blind or single blind. Then there are observational studies. They can be cohort prospective or retrospective. They can be case controlled, or cross-sectional. Gold standard?

There are certain observations which when made over and over, "hints" to the underlying problem. Is all disease caused by sin or not? If all disease is found the have the same underlying problem over and over, is that evidence or not?

I understood double blind studies are only used in cases where the subjects and the researchers could be influenced. One would not need to use a double blind study to determine if an herbicide is effective. I would therefore not call a double blind study a "gold standard".

As this question was not answered, I'm reposting it here:

I thought you were suggesting a double blind study? Maybe you were just saying it couldn't be done.

But I was addressing whether it was a "gold standard".

The Bible gives the reason for the fall of Satan. It had nothing to do with an argument over the Law.

This is what God said, "Because you have done this (i.e. DECEIVED THE WOMAN, the serpent should have known better!), you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Gen. 3:14)

The serpent had cultivated a cult of self-worship by deceiving Adam and Eve that they were somehow GODS unto themselves, an idea for which they owed him. You can see it reflected in the judgement of God, in sentence:

1. The serpent was placed under the woman (Gen. 3:15b),
2. The woman was placed under the man (Gen 3:16b), and
3. The man was placed under the earth, in the dust (Gen. 3:19b)

Their sin was self-exaltation without merit, an empty claim that resulted in rotten and violent characters. Of the innocent animals they were killing in the Garden of Eden, "the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." (Gen. 3:21) Theirs was the lot of death thereafter, outside of Paradise.

Since APL was using the filter of science to understand the spiritual matters..

What was the roll of the fruit?

You have it backwards.

I'm only reading the Bible with the science I know.

I read science with the Bible I know. Perhaps I am backwards compared to you, but I'll stick to this methodology.

Interesting. The Bible says, in the day you eat, not the day you listen. What part of Genesis is not metaphor? Any part?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ...

Do you take any of Genesis literally?

Science can only be interpreted from the viewpoint of the Bible.

Read GC chapter 32. he rules of Bible interpretation say to take the Bible as it reads. What is Genesis 3:14-18 saying to you, taking it as it reads?

1. But if the tree is not literal, or God's command to not eat of the tree is not literal, how do you know the rest is not literal?

2. You say God was speaking metaphorically about the tree. Perhaps He was speaking metaphorically about the days of creation?

3. Satan said God lied about dying.

4. Are you saying God lied about the fruit?

5. Are you saying that just thinking wrong will cause ALL CREATION on this planet to fall apart?

6. God's design must not be very good.

Now it is time to put it to practice and stop trying to squeeze the spiritual matter of sin through your physical/genetic/epigenetic filter.

1. Literature takes many forms and uses the most appropriate devices to convey relevant messages. "Song of Solomon" is an allegory. "The rich man and Lazarus" is a parable. You must be aware of these things, aren't you?

2. No. The days of creation were literal 24-hour time periods. It is evident that God was not just creating "stuff" (otherwise He would have done everything in an hour), but creating time itself: how long a day should be, a week, a month, a year. He gave it to us: it is our heritage as life itself.

3. No, Satan did not say God lied about dying. In fact, Satan told them the truth (their eyes indeed opened, they indeed 'became like God', and they did not die). What he NEVER told them, and therein lay the deception, was that they were going to forfeit everlasting life. Satan offered them immediate satisfaction, as he has done to everyone since then (Mat. 4:8-9).

4. Titus 1:2

5. Yes. Heb. 3:12-13 cf. 1 Sam. 15:22 & 2 Sam. 12:1-14

6. YOUR understanding of God is not very good.

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Is the tree still a metaphor? And the rest of Genesis?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

The Bible says, in the day you EAT there of. You say, the day you THINK there of. I'll trust the Bible.

I said, "in the day you EAT thereof". Are you OK?

The role of the fruit? I'm not sure that there was any role-playing involved. What God was warning Adam against was imitating Satan. In saying, "do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," God was speaking metaphorically.

Adam and Eve were not even to listen to Satan

Don't you read your Bible?

6. YOUR understanding of God is not very good.

I saw a sadness come over Adam's countenance. He appeared afraid and astonished. A struggle seemed to be going on in his mind. He felt sure that this was the foe against whom they had been warned, and that his wife must die. They must be separated. His love for Eve was strong, and in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it. {EW 148.1}

Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;
Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field;

thorns and thistles - created by God? Nope. Satan. EGW - by his ingenious methods of amalgamation - genetics. {1BC 1085.10} {16MR 247.2}

Is that a command? Should I let you do the thinking for me? Nope.

So, you are not sure about the fruit. ok.But the verse only says, the day you EAT, not the day you LISTEN. You call this metaphoric. Are the 6 day of creation metaphoric? Is Genesis 1-11 (i'll narrow it down some) metaphoric or literal? Yes, there is poetry in the Bible. Is Genesis 1-11 poetry or history?
I'm reading Genesis as it reads, and it is pretty clear. And YOU are representing God well?

It was literal.

"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, SO HE WHO FEEDS ON ME WILL LIVE because of Me." (John 6:57)

All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. – {16MR 247.2}

APL,

Arnold speaks truth. Notice something else about that quote from Ellen White:


Where does it say that Satan created the seeds? I don't believe he has that power. He can only "sow" them. And, the statement doesn't say he is the only one who has sown them. It just says that he sows all of the tares.

For example, a painter might paint all colors. Does that mean he is the only one who has ever painted those colors? or does that mean that he is quite willing to paint any of them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither;
and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. (1:3)

The tree was metaphorical.

The tree was metaphorical.

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Psalms 90:4 AKJV For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 AKJV But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Six literal days of creation, or six metaphorical days. If the trees are just symbolic/metaphoric, then the rest of the chapter can be considered the same. Do you really want to go there?

Adam will eat herbs

Note that Peter was quoting the Psalmist, and that the original thought was about the fleeting passage of time. To God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, a thousand years is nothing at all. They are all together "as yesterday when it is past, AND as a watch in the night."

Note the conjunction "AND". They are not only as yesterday, but like one-eighth of a day that passes quickly like when a man sleeps.

This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day".

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And the trees in the garden were not metaphors or symbols. They were literal trees. There may be addition meanings, but none the less, they were real, just as the days of creation were real.

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6:53-54)

James,

Many people do try to attribute that passage in 2 Peter 3:8 to a concept that time is meaningless to God. However, such an interpretation does not follow proper hermeneutics. That verse is singular in being the most definitive time formula in all of scripture. If time was meaningless to God, why so many time prophecies, each of which are exact to the day?

Time is important to God. Many passages in the Bible bear this out. In 2 Peter 3:8, an A=B & B=A (definition statement) is found. None of the other time formulas go both ways in the Bible. William Miller wrote a good essay on the topic. I've posted it on this forum at least once.

The days of Genesis were prophetic. Peter himself speaks of it in that chapter. That is the specific context of the formula which he gives there. Are prophetic days not literal? On the contrary, they are literal first. For example, the spies used 40 literal days to spy out Canaan. Those days came to be representative of a prophetic application of 40 years. So the 40 days were both literal and "metaphorical," if that is the word one prefers.

The days of creation were likewise literal days. Yet each one represented a millennium to come. The symbolic or metaphorical value of each of the things which God created in those days present to us the meaning/fulfillment of the prophecy.

This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day".

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

One thousand years does not "equal" one day. It "represents" one day.

You are correct. One thousand years does not "equal" one day. It "represents" one day. Note the use of the word "as" to create a simile.


The first thousand-year "day" that we may notice in scripture is the one spoken of in Genesis 2:17. Obviously, Adam did not die the very day he ate the fruit. Neither did Eve, or she wouldn't have had any children. But Adam "only" lived 930 years--short of a full thousand years. He died that "day." By the end of that "day," his "punishment" (as relates to this topic) came.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Lame.

No. The bible says a thousand years is LIKE (not that it is, or representative of, but LIKE) :

1. yesterday when it is passed (a whole day gone already) AND ALSO LIKE
2. a watch in the night (one-eighth part of a day when men sleep)

Psalm 90

That in no way speaks of the creation week as being prophetic about humanity's time on earth thereafter. You are being carried away by supposed similes.

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No. The bible says a thousand years is LIKE (not that it is, or representative of, but LIKE) :

1. yesterday when it is passed (a whole day gone already) AND ALSO LIKE
2. a watch in the night (one-eighth part of a day when men sleep)

Psalm 90

That in no way speaks of the creation week as being prophetic about humanity's time on earth thereafter. You are being carried away by supposed similes.

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James,

Have you studied 2 Peter 3? If you have, how do you account for the fact that Peter speaks of the flood happening during days 2 & 3 of creation week? Peter tells you himself to count the days as millennia, but you seem biased against that still. What is your explanation?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And the lion is not lame.

haw haw, you're so funny.

Shall we take all occurrences where we find similes "...as a..." and make them all become symbolic? I mean, wouldn't you be one to say a simile kind of like sounds symbol which would be keeping with some similar word sounding alike things you've said in the past.

Now that would be entertaining.

Shall we take all occurrences where we find similes "...as a..." and make them all become symbolic?

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

There is a tendency on the part of some to take such an "all or nothing" approach to everything. I find that sort of "black and white" mentality to be more common among the immature or those who lack mental ability,

If we should focus on making such hard and fast rules as defining every simile or symbol upon the presence of the phrase "as a," we should quickly be led into a complexity of errors, largely supported by our own pride of opinion.

<blockquote style="background:#f9f9f9;border-left:10px solid #ccc;margin:1.5em 10px;padding:.5em 10px;quotes:"\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019";"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ellen White</div> The Bible Its Own Expositor

The student of the word should not make his opinions a center around which truth is to revolve. He should not search for the purpose of finding texts of Scripture that he can construe to prove his theories, for this is wresting the Scriptures to his own destruction. The Bible student must empty himself of every prejudice, lay his own ideas at the door of investigation, and with humble, subdued heart, with self hid in Christ, with earnest prayer, he should seek wisdom from God. He should seek to know the revealed will of God because it concerns his present and eternal welfare. This word is the directory by which he must learn the way to eternal life. {CT 463.2} </blockquote>

The last paragraph there is especially instructive for how not to study the Bible.

Does God punish? Yes.

For what purpose does He punish?

You first. You said, yes, He punishes. For what purpose?

Your answers are impressive. They really show the depth of your understanding on this topic. Thanks.

Perhaps another would like to attempt an answer: Does God punish?

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1MR 131.1}

So, does God punish? asygo says YES.

That sounds like another discussion for those who believe that God punishes. Do you believe that God punishes?

"Punish" also means those things you mentioned. That's why it is often translated that way.

But at when sin is finally ended, is there not judgement? Who does the judging? Will sinners such as Satan be punished or chastised then?

Keeping to the thread, will there be punishment at the end?

I'm talking about the end of sin, when God restores everything. Will anyone be punished? Or will everyone be treated the same?

25:1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
25:2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who [were] weeping [before] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw [it], he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, [even] the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
25:14 Now the name of the Israelite that was slain, [even] that was slain with the Midianitish woman, [was] Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a chief house among the Simeonites.
25:15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain [was] Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he [was] head over a people, [and] of a chief house in Midian.
25:16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
25:17 Vex the Midianites, and smite them:
25:18 For they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of a prince of Midian, their sister, which was slain in the day of the plague for Peor's sake.

Justice is doing the right thing. But the right thing is not always what seems right to you.

That's right. But I'm not the only one.

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. ... And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. – {GC 539.3}

Just because God is not sitting there waiting to punish sinners doesn't mean he won't. All good fathers know that. Someday, if you ever have kids, you will understand what that means.

It is time to take off your filter.

And that seems to be the crux of the issue. There are those who say in their hearts, "I wouldn't do that, so God cannot do that." They have made themselves their own gods.

The right way to approach it is the exact opposite: God did something I wouldn't do, so there must be something wrong with me. Lord, help my unbelief.

If we want to know what God is like, look to Jesus. Look at his judgment and condemnation. The woman taken in adultery. And how did He treat those that accused her? It is God's kindness that draws us to repentance. But some don't like this picture of God.

Asygo :Keeping to the thread, will there be punishment at the end?

Elle : End of what? Great White Throne Judgment or the Great Jubilee(49,000 yrs after Adam)?

At the Judgment of the great white throne it says very clearly in Is 26:9 that the Judgment will produce righteousness in the inhabitants.

At the end of the Great Jubilee, it is law that all slaves are set free whether their debt is fully paid or not. This is LAW and prophecy showing what the mind of the Lord has planned from the beginning. The Lord will fulfill His Jubilee and free all humans.

So NO there's no punishment which that word has the Babylonian Judicial system written all over it. This is far from the Lords ways.

Asygo : I'm talking about the end of sin, when God restores everything. Will anyone be punished? Or will everyone be treated the same?

You are exactly right. Justice is doing the right thing. But the right thing is not always what seems right to you. Sometimes the right thing is to feed your enemies and to pray for them. Sometimes the right thing is to kill them. BOTH of these aspects of justice and judgment are clearly taught in the Bible.

Focusing on one side of the truth will never make the other side false. Truth is truth. Those who are imbalanced may not realize what is truth.

For a worthy example of this principle of executing justice and judgment in righteousness, one may look at Numbers 25.



Who did the honorable thing in the above story? It was the high priest's grandson. What was promised him for his deed? An everlasting covenant of priesthood. What deed secured for him this covenant from God?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, consider the following:
Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.

On the way they met Elijah, and instead of a message from the idol, the king heard the awful denunciation from the God of Israel, “Thou shalt not come down from that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.” [2 Kings 1:4.] It was Christ that bade Elijah speak these words to the apostate king. Jehovah Immanuel had cause to be greatly displeased at Ahaziah's impiety. What had Christ not done to win the hearts of Israel, and to inspire them with unwavering confidence in himself? For ages he had visited his people with manifestations of the most condescending kindness and unexampled love. From the time of the patriarchs, he had shown how his “delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31.] He had been a very present help to all who sought him in sincerity. “In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them.” [Isaiah 63:9.] Yet Israel had revolted from God, and turned for help to the Lord's worst enemy. {CTBH 112.1}

The above response by APL to my post seems confusing at best. I'm not sure what was meant. It appears to my mind that APL is trying to say that God has changed. My post cited an Old Testament incident. APL seems to say God is different now, because He has now spoken to us by His Son. But Who was the spokesperson in those "times past?"

We should know Who has spoken to us in the Old Testament. In just one example of many, Mrs. White related the following.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If the Bible says He did, why should anyone question it?

At the end of the Great Jubilee, it is law that all slaves are set free whether their debt is fully paid or not. This is LAW and prophecy showing what the mind of the Lord has planned from the beginning. The Lord will fulfill His Jubilee and free all humans.
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His verdict at the Great White throne is that ALL sins are accounted for as a debt and needs to be worked off untill the Great Jubilee comes. Then if the entire debt was paid off or not before the Great Jubille, all the remaining debt will be erased and everyone will be restore back to their inheritance. There is no debt that is too great that cannot be erase at the Jubilee. This is LAW.

If that is the case, then nobody will be lost; everyone will have eternal life. Is that right?

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Elle,

APL is right. God, wants it to happen, but He won't force us if we don't want it.

So, your answer to the question is a definite NO.

As for the idea that everyone will be saved eventually, I think there's already a thread on that. I'll look for it and we can continue this there.

If God said it, why do you disagree? Do you know better than Him?

And if there's something I don't know, go ahead and tell me. There's no point merely telling someone that they should know something.

Are we going to study or are we just going to hint at things? If you want to study, let's get going. If not, I have other things to do.

But at this point, it seems that you don't believe God's word. That's bad. That's how Satan got Eve to disobey.

Then you call the Lord a liar and make null His laws and His vows. At the end it is the Lord's word shall not return empty (Is 45:23)and His laws that will be fulfill and not men's ideology. There's lots of time for everyone to turn back to the Lord. Whatever time it will take, at the end all men will worship the Lord as the Bible says.

Sure all will worship, but all will not be saved.

According to the Law of Jubilee, at the end all will return to their inheritance(be saved). No debt is too great that will not be erased! The Lord has given us the TYPE and Jesus said all the Law will be fulfilled...which means this law will be fulfilled.

Then what is the meaning of Mat. 7:22-23?

Oh I do believe God's word. I believe it is more complex and deeper than you make it out to believe.

And Elle is doing it right back at ya. She is saying that God said it and so who are you to question it and that you don't really believe the Bible. But you see something deeper than such thinking and consider that the Bible isn't really saying what she wants it to say. But aren't you doing the same thing here? That what you think the Bible is saying, it isn't? If you object, then what about the Elle?

Regarding Saul, if you don't know how he died, wouldn't you want to know how God "slew" Saul, so you know what to fear if God is "gonna get you"? Was it lighting strikes zapping him from the sky?

Or is the answers to these questions immaterial since you already know God is gonna get the bad people and keep the good people in fear so they don't go bad. And therefore, knowing whether even if the Bible said God slew Saul or not, doesn't really matter.

Jesus says in Mat 7:22-23 that many false followers and believers even thought they are doers of miracles, castout demons, and prophecied will be rejected because they practice lawlessness(anomia). In the Type the "lawlessness" were cut off from Israel because only law amen individuals can be aa kingdom of Priest and holy nation.

This is what Jesus is looking for as qualification to be fit to be part of His body(=the 144K aka the firstfruits aka the barley company who are part of the first harvest). The firstfruits are only a remnant who will agree & obey His Laws(Torah) and will have them written in their heart and will know the mind of the Law-Giver so to be able to rule the nations with Jesus and bring the nations the right judgment to settle conflicts according to Jesus Laws and according to His mind. Also the Type shows the Priests are to minister to the Lord and to the nations teaching them the Laws.

However the wheat company(the church or believers) and the grape company(the unbelievers) will also be harvested later on in the seasons just as the Type shows in the Law. All the fruits of the 3 harvests make it to be served at the Lords table. Since we SDAs have nailed the Laws to the cross like any other denomination, we are totally ignorant of that and think that there's only one harvest.

Basically most of our doctrines have no law/Type bases because are forefathers didn't study the Law either; thus creating so many man-made teachings which was equated as vomit in Is 28. Without the Law as our guide, then it is merely impossible for us to know the truth.(Is 8:20, Deut 13 & Deut 18). They have been serving us that vomit for so long that we came quite accustom to it. But fresh bread is much better for us.

Actually, she is doing what you are doing. Both of you reject part of God's word because it doesn't suit your ideas.

I will sooner reject my ideas than God's word.

No that's not true. I have the laws behind me which is the foundation of all truth. To understand the Prophets or the NT, you need to start at the Laws. All truth or beliefs or so claimed prophets needs to be tested against the foundation(Laws). I started to lay down some of the laws that proves the Lord's coming Judgments which you have totally rejected and stuck to men's teachings(vomit).

I gave a bunch of OT quotes(close to 30) and only one NT text(by which I mentioned there's over 60 more). You needed to twist that one NT text by taking a translation that said what you want it to say and did not seek the real root word definition. You weren't interested to see the 60 others texts. You clearly showed that your mind is to support your own beliefs(heart idols see Ez 14) and you are not interested in truly studying and finding The Lords truth.

A true seeker of the Truth takes ALL scriptures into account and will not discard any that oppose what they think is the Lord's truth. No man today have the total picture and understanding how the Lord will bring "restitution of all things"(Acts 3:21). However, by rejecting scriptures especially the Laws and twisting them will only give you vomit and not some clean morsel of fresh bread.

AV 1Ti 2:4 Who will have [thelo, to determine) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Many eat vomit today, however the text above says that the Lord will have all men eating clean pure fresh bread one day.

A decision can only be as good as the current information we had to make that decision. When new vital information comes known, often these past decisions are viewed as not good or invalid because of the lack of vital info. The text above relates salvation with the knowledge of truth. Today "truth" is all grey for Man has discarded the light (prophetic Torah foundation). The Lord will come to our rescue by fulfilling prophecies according to His word and proving all man's theories wrong. At the same time He will rain down His Holy Spirit and bring most to repentance. This day is coming very soon.

Kland is right you are guilty of doing what you accuse him of doing.

No that's not true. I have the laws behind me which is the foundation of all truth.

Kland is right you are guilty of doing what you accuse him of doing.

I will sooner reject my ideas than God's word.


1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.

kland, did you know that?

What else would you like me to find for you?

Do you think that your "more complex than God's plain words" ideas will get any traction if you don't even know the plain words?

What I'd like you to find are the plain words in 1 Chronicles 10 and answer the question, Did God slay Saul or did Saul kill himself?

So the plain words say that Saul fell on his sword and was soon found dead,

but it was God who killed him.

Do you not agree with this passage of Scripture?

Yes.

But yes to what? Did Saul commit suicide or did God kill him?

If it's "plain" why does it raise questions?

Who is "He" and who is "him"? Basic grammar shows clearly that He=God and him=Saul.
...
Do you disagree with my analysis of "He killed him"?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.

kland, did you know that?

C'mon kland. The ruse has been exposed.

Saul fell on his sword, but God killed him. The Bible is clear. Will you accept it or try to misdirect?

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? Did God do this or Satan?

Again, it is both. Satan tempted, and God allowed David to fall prey to the temptation.

If the Bible says God killed Saul, why do you dare to differ with that fact?

The difficulties of Scripture have been urged by skeptics as an argument against the Bible; but so far from this, they constitute a strong evidence of its divine inspiration. If it contained no account of God but that which we could easily comprehend; if His greatness and majesty could be grasped by finite minds, then the Bible would not bear the unmistakable credentials of divine authority. The very grandeur and mystery of the themes presented should inspire faith in it as the word of God. {SC 107.1}

kland,

I agree with Arnold. If the Bible says God killed Saul, why do you dare to differ with that fact?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.

kland, did you know that?

Sooner or later, we each have a choice to make. Either we accept what God says, or we don't.

So you're saying that Saul failed to commit suicide, but God finished him off? By what means?

Not necessarily. I'm saying God abandoned Saul, leaving him to die.

Did David kill Uriah the Hittite? The Bible says he did. Do you believe that David did so? By whose sword? By the Philistine sword, right?

God killed Saul in the same manner. God was the King in charge of that battle. His men were out there fighting the enemy. God abandoned Saul. The enemy sorely pressed him. He was wounded. He would have died anyhow, but he hastened his own death by taking things into his own hands due to his cowardice toward potential torture by his enemies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

At school, where he was sent at an early age, Luther was treated with harshness and even violence. So great was the poverty of his parents that upon going from home to school in another town he was for a time obliged to obtain his food by singing from door to door, and he often suffered from hunger. The gloomy, superstitious ideas of religion then prevailing filled him with fear. He would lie down at night with a sorrowful heart, looking forward with trembling to the dark future and in constant terror at the thought of God as a stern, unrelenting judge, a cruel tyrant, rather than a kind heavenly Father. {GC 121.2}

It wouldn't surprise me. The Bible is uninspired and God is a murderer.

But I think in this case, he said that God withdrew from Saul and no longer protected him. This does surprise me, so I may be wrong, especially considering the rest of the paragraph he may have intended to contradict the first sentence.

Is there any verse in the Bible which tells us that Saul was killed by a sword?

On the plain of Shunem and the slopes of Mount Gilboa the armies of Israel and the hosts of the Philistines closed in mortal combat. Though the fearful scene in the cave of Endor had driven all hope from his heart, Saul fought with desperate valor for his throne and his kingdom. But it was in vain. "The men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in Mount Gilboa." Three brave sons of the king died at his side. The archers pressed upon Saul. He had seen his soldiers falling around him and his princely sons cut down by the sword. Himself wounded, he could neither fight nor fly. Escape was impossible, and determined not to be taken alive by the Philistines, he bade his armor-bearer, "Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith." When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord's anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword. Thus the first king of Israel perished, with the guilt of self-murder upon his soul. {CC 174.2}

Let's skip the ad hominem attacks and get to the bottom of it.

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

Who is "He" and who is "him"? What saith the Lord?

So the question is why the Lord can kill and not break His law? That's the issue that we need to answer.

Green said: "God killed Saul in the same manner", the same manner as David murdered Uriah. Thus, God must be a murderer. That is what green said, no?

Doesn't the Bible said that He killed Saul? Isn't what you are stressing? Of course the Lord kills, and destroys, and hardens heart, and doesn't open ears to hear, and etc... just like the Lord said He did.

But the Bible says that Saul fell on his own sword....that's true too!

That's the problem. kland seems to argue against the verse that God killed Saul. But he hasn't said it straight out yet.

Doesn't the Bible said that He killed Saul? Isn't what you are stressing? Of course the Lord kills, and destroys, and hardens heart, and doesn't open ears to hear, and etc... just like the Lord said He did.

The Bible speaks plainly. A child could understand it on this point.

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

They need to eat some eggs. Otherwise, it's not God punishing them, it's them punishing themselves.

A little child interprets this to say, if you are bad, God will punish you, he will send fiery serpents to bite you! That is what the Bible says. Who are we to question the Bible? Please, let us not reason together...

I was going to say that you may not seize every opportunity to promote eggs, but after this, are there some where you don't?

Green, no one else here I have seen promoting NOT eating eggs. But you take most every opportunity to advocate everyone needs to eat eggs. Even on threads not related. Why have you taken it upon yourself actively promote where God has not led? I do stand up to error. And there have been more than opportunity.

(Don't suppose you'll moderate yourself on that post will ya?)

I am coming into contact with vegan sufferers with increased frequency these days, and their symptoms are increasingly serious.

God is merciful, but He leaves us to the results of our free-choice decisions. As Ellen White warned us, death is the result of these premature restrictions. She told us to wait to give up milk and eggs until God had told us it was time. Has He told us?

asygo can see Saul fell on his sword and died, but since the Bible does not specifically say falling on his sword killed him, it did not happen.

That is a lie. You are a liar, but not a very good one. If you're going to lie, at least try something that reasonable people might fall for.

Your problem is not a lack of B12. It's a lack of integrity.

Is there the possibility that the increased frequency has more to do with your criticism of calling other people "brain damaged" as you are doing with APL and myself? That anyone you disagree with, you call "B12 deficiency"?
And that's not specifically correct. asygo can see Saul fell on his sword and died, but since the Bible does not specifically say falling on his sword killed him, it did not happen. But then there's you who make all kinds of speculative conjectures. I'd be surprised if you can find anything which Ellen White specifically says that "death is the result of these premature restrictions". In fact, I don't believe you will find anything saying anything to that effect. Unless you have something additional to what you've listed in the past, I'm sure you'll list something, but not what a reasonable person would conclude. Have you considered that you saying B12 deficiency is irreversable could apply to you? Those who *might* have a B12 deficiency versus those who *have had* a B12 deficiency. Hmmm...

You say she told us to wait until God told us it was time, yet you cannot even in your wildest speculation conceive of how long we might be waiting and how God will tell us?

The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you.--Letter 37, 1901. {MM 289.1}

We need eyesalve.

I've been vegan for over 15 years, with a few exceptions now and then. I hope my morning ritual has staved off B12 deficiency.

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Another remarkable exhibition to the nations round about was the perfect order observed in the camp of the Israelites. They could see the cloud hovering over the place where the tabernacle was to be pitched; they observed the priests and other appointed agencies going about their special work, each one doing the part assigned him in the work of preparing the camp for the night. No one did anything that someone else should do. Whoever would have tried to do another man's work would have suffered the death penalty. Each one attended to his special duty. In the erecting of the tabernacle, part fitted to part, and the house of the Lord was set up with beautiful precision. Not a word was spoken, not an order given, excepting by the one in charge. No one was confused; everything was put together in accordance with the similitude shown to Moses in the mount. {LHU 145.5}

In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

Brethren, never allow anyone's ideas to unsettle your faith in regard to the order and harmony which should exist in the church. Many of you do not see all things clearly. The directions in regard to order in the tabernacle service were recorded that lessons might be drawn from it by all who should live upon the earth. Men were selected to do various parts of the work of setting up and taking down the tabernacle, and if one strayed in carelessly and put his hands to the work assigned to another, he was to be put to death. We serve the same God today. But the death penalty has been abolished; had it not been, there would not now be so much careless, disorderly work in His cause. The God of heaven is a God of order, and He requires all His followers to have rules and regulations, and to preserve order. All should have a perfect understanding of God's work. {5T 274.1}

It is unsafe to cherish doubt in the heart even for a moment. The seeds of doubt which Pharaoh sowed when he rejected the first miracle were allowed to grow, and they produced such an abundant harvest that all subsequent miracles could not persuade him that his position was wrong. He continued to venture on in his own course, going from one degree of questioning to another, and his heart became more and more hardened until he was called to look upon the cold, dead faces of the first-born. {5T 274.2}

God is at work, and we are not doing one half that must be done to prepare a people to stand in the day when the Son of man shall be revealed. Woe be to the man that shall in the least degree seek to hinder the work which God is doing. We must labor for others; we must try to weaken the hold of our brethren upon their earthly treasures; for many will sell their birthright to eternal life for worldly advantages. How much better to encourage them to lay up their treasure in heaven than complainingly to drop the words: "It is money, money, that these men are continually calling for; and they are getting rich by it." How sweet are words like these to the world-loving professor! How they strengthen his courage to withhold from God the proportion which belongs to Him and which should be returned to Him in tithes and offerings! The curse of the Lord will rest upon those who fail to render to Him His own. Let us work in harmony with God. His servants have a message to bear to money lovers; why should they not bear a close testimony in regard to bringing all the tithes into the storehouse, when the Lord Himself has set them the example? {5T 274.3}

Those living in Flatville cannot conceive of three dimensions, regardless of the efforts of others to explain such.

"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come!"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14:9-10)

That is a lie. You are a liar, but not a very good one. If you're going to lie, at least try something that reasonable people might fall for.

Your problem is not a lack of B12. It's a lack of integrity.

So, like me, you can find no Scripture that specifically says that Saul "killed" himself. He fell on his sword, he died. From that, you INFER that one caused the other. You further add the conjecture that Saul INTENDED to kill himself. But, in all this, not one verse that SAYS Saul killed himself.

You did, however, find inspired text that says Saul killed himself. But you had to leave the Bible to do it, and take it as God-inspired truth.

Interestingly, the Bible specifically states that Saul was *killed* by someone other than Saul. Furthermore, the same author that told you Saul killed himself also says that God destroys sinners, as does the Bible.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. {PP 167.2}

(Prediction: Now someone is going to accuse me of rejecting the SOP.)

A fundamental part of the misunderstanding here involves the theology of the cross. Mrs. White said in the above quote that Jesus took our death penalty.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4}

The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {LHU 324.4}

In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. His heart was rent with anguish and oppressed with gloom. But it was not the fear or the pain of death that caused His suffering. It was the crushing weight of the sin of the world, a sense of separation from His Father's love. This was what broke the Saviour's heart, and brought His death so soon. {SJ 145.1}

Christ felt the woe that sinners will feel when they awake to realize the burden of their guilt, to know that they have forever separated themselves from the joy and peace of Heaven. {SJ 145.2}

The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}

It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isa_53:4; Isa_53:3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. {CC 98.5}

But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899). {4BC 1168.8}

While he professed to keep the law of God, he was, in a most wanton manner, violating its plain precepts. He has given himself up to the gratification of sensual pleasure. He has sold himself to work wickedness. What will be the wages of such a man? The indignation and wrath of God will punish him for sin. The vengeance of God will be aroused against all those whose lustful passions have been concealed under a ministerial cloak. While professing to be a shepherd of the flock, he was leading the flock to certain ruin. These dreadful results are the fruits of the carnal mind, which "is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." {2T 454.2}

God will punish all those who, as higher critics, exalt themselves, and criticise God's Holy word. {BEcho, February 1, 1897 par. 9}

But in His death Christ gave evidence to the heavenly universe that God will punish for the sins of a guilty world. The cross of Christ testifies that the law is not changed to meet the sinner in his sins, but that through Christ's sacrifice the sinner has opportunity to repent. {BEcho, May 30, 1898 par. 2}

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren Waggoner and Jones. By exciting that opposition, Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. {1MR 130.3}

The law of ten commandments is not to be looked upon as much from the prohibitory side, as from the mercy side. Its prohibitions are the sure guarantee of happiness in obedience. As received in Christ, it works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages. To the obedient it is a wall of protection. We behold in it the goodness of God, who by revealing to men the immutable principles of righteousness, seeks to shield them from the evils that result from transgression. {1MR 130.4}

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1MR 131.1}

Mrs. White speaks of God punishing in many places. ... If Mrs. White is to be believed, there can be no question but that God will punish. (Why does it take so many pages of discussion to establish such a simple matter?)

Satan must be rejoicing.

"Common sense"??? this is MAN's thinking. But let's takes Green's thinking - The wages of a teacher, lawyer or a doctor come from works, are we to assume this is a good analogy?. What if a worker does not fulfill their duty? Are they then punished, no, executed! for bad performance? No. They are let go.

We are to be guided by true theology and common sense.

APL,

Define "force."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The use of might and power. How do YOU define it?

FORCE, n. [L. fortis. All words denoting force, power, strength, are from verbs which express straining, or driving, rushing, and this word has the elements of L. vireo.]
1. Strength; active power; vigor; might; energy that may be exerted; that physical property in a body which may produce action or motion in another body, or may counteract such motion. By the force of the muscles we raise a weight, or resist an assault.
2. Momentum; the quantity of power produced by motion or the action of one body on another; as the force of a cannon ball.
3. That which causes an operation or moral effect; strength; energy; as the force of the mind, will or understanding.
4. Violence; power exerted against will or consent; compulsory power. Let conquerors consider that force alone can keep what force as obtained.
5. Strength; moral power to convince the mind. There is great force in an argument.
6. Virtue; efficacy. No presumption or hypothesis can be of force enough to overthrow constant experience.
7. Validity; power to bind or hold. If the conditions of a covenant are not fulfilled, the contract is of no force. A testament is of force after the testator is dead. Hebrews 9:17.
8. Strength or power for war; armament; troops; an army or navy; as a military or naval force: sometimes in the plural; as military forces.
9. Destiny; necessity; compulsion; any extraneous power to which men are subject; as the force of fate or of divine decrees.
10. Internal power; as the force of habit.
11. In law, any unlawful violence to person or property. This is simple, when no other crime attends it, as the entering into another's possession, without committing any other unlawful act. It is compound, when some other violence or unlawful act is committed. The law also implies force, as when a person enters a house or inclosure lawfully, but afterwards does an unlawful act. In this case, the law supposes the first entrance to be for that purpose, and therefore by force.
Physical force, is the force of material bodies.
Moral force, is the power of acting on the reason in judging and determining.
Mechanical force, is the power that belongs to bodies at rest or in motion. The pressure or tension of bodies at rest is called a mechanical force, and so is the power of a body in motion. There is also the force of gravity or attraction, centrifugal and centripetal forces, expansive force, etc.

The peace of God within will force off the withered or gnarled branches of selfishness, vanity, pride, and indolence.

It is God's design that... There must be a force of influence in the cities, that the message of warning shall be heard.-- Review and Herald, April 14, 1903.

No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force.

God wants men to cultivate force of character.

The power of God alone can force it from its usurped position.

Satan has caused the change of the Sabbath.... He seeks to make the commands of God of less force in the world than human laws. {7BC 975.7}

Feeling our dependence upon God, we shall realize the force of Christ's words when He said, "Without me ye can do nothing."

I saw the burden of the message should be the first, second, and third angels' messages, and those who had any hope in God would yield to the force of that truth. {5MR 203.3}

Our most bitter opponents are found among the first-day Adventists. They do not engage in the warfare honorably. They will pursue any course, however unreasonable and inconsistent, to cover up the truth and try to make it appear that the law of God is of no force.

GREEN - - do you always ignore context? Do you always make the Prince of Peace the Prince of War? Do always picture God as using Kingdoms of this world methods? God uses NO FORCE TO COMPEL CONSCIENCE. As EGW says, "The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." {DA 22.1} Or, " God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power". {DA 759.1}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

God does not force any one. It is not love me, or I'll kill you.

It is hard to kick against the pricks!!!

See also: {COL 77.1} {SC 43.4} {6T 236.2}

God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator.

For with thee is the fountain of life.” And the wise man declares, “The wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.” To Jeremiah, Christ is “the fountain of living waters”; to Zechariah, “a fountain opened ... for sin and for uncleanness.” {TMK 24.3}

Who sentenced Jesus to death?

Was it a devoted child of God who issued the verdict of death after prayer and fasting?

By Christ the true standard is presented. He made it possible for man to be once more united with God. He came to take the sentence of death for the transgressor. Not one precept of the law could be altered to meet man in his fallen condition; therefore Christ gave His life in man's behalf, to suffer in his stead the penalty of disobedience. This was the only way in which man could be saved, the only way in which it could be demonstrated that it is possible for man to keep the law. Christ came to this earth and stood where Adam stood, overcoming where Adam failed to overcome. He is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. {ST, June 13, 1900 par. 4}

The sentence of death pronounced upon him by his Maker, which at first appeared so terrible to him, after he had lived some hundreds of years, looked just and merciful in God, to bring to an end a miserable life. {1SP 57.2}

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ’s brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}

Johann, do you believe that it was Satan's will and by his power that Jesus died? Do you believe that God could not prevent Christ's death?

Both of you are "cleverly" trying to avoid "listening" to the words of the Spirit of Prophecy. In whose interest?

No, it's not "love me or I'll kill you." But it's "obey and live or transgress and die." "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

God will not force our love. He will not force our obedience.

But if we do not love Him, He will destroy us as the most merciful thing He could do.

By his power he [Satan] had controlled cities and nations until their sin provoked the wrath of God to destroy them by fire, water, earthquakes, sword, famine, and pestilence.

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4-5. {GC 589.3}

Arnold, I asked why Ellen White wrote those words. Do you have an answer to that question?

Sure.

"By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings."

She wrote it because it is true. Even though Satan didn't press the crown of thorns on His head, he is held responsible for shedding His blood. Even though Satan didn't flog Him, he is held responsible for shedding His blood. Even though Satan didn't nail Him to the tree, he is held responsible for shedding His blood. Even though Satan didn't pierce His side, he is held responsible for shedding His blood. Thus, he lost any vestige of sympathy the heavenly beings might have had for him, because they held him responsible.

Some might complain, "That can't be true. The Bible says the Romans crucified Christ. Now you're saying Satan killed Him. You keep changing your story. Which is it?"

It is sad that there are still those who cannot see that one does not have to perform an act directly in order to be responsible for it. If they saw things as clearly as the heavenly beings do, there wouldn't be confusion on this point. They would do better to trust the inspired word than their own feelings and opinions.

Now, your turn. Do you believe that it was Satan's will and by his power that Jesus died? Do you believe that God could not prevent Christ's death? One more bonus question: Can God prevent Satan from immediately dying, even though Satan has separated himself irrevocably from God long ago?

I wonder how the old-school, Bible-reading, EGW-believing Adventists answer these questions. I've only been a member for a quarter of a century. I like to hear the old-timers' point of view. Thanks.

Now, your turn. Do you believe that it was Satan's will and by his power that Jesus died?

Do you believe that God could not prevent Christ's death?

One more bonus question: Can God prevent Satan from immediately dying, even though Satan has separated himself irrevocably from God long ago?

Good for you! I still do not understand why you were so reluctant and came with counter questions which seemed to indicate you did not believe the quotation.

The point here is that he was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. So often we hear our neighbors blaming God for calamities, sickness and death. God is not responsible for any calamity or death. Satan is the one who rejected God and thereby disconnected his connection with the only source of life in the universe, and his way became the way of death from the beginning.

Yes, it was the will of Satan that Jesus should die because he hates God and His Son. There is no such thing as a power to die, it is caused by the lack of the power which comes from the Life Giver.



I will answer this with a question: Do you believe that God is almighty or not? That should give you the answer.



Here the answer it the same as to the previous question. Either you believe in an everlasting and almighty God or you don't. Why do you question His abilities?

I will answer this with a question: Do you believe that God is almighty or not? That should give you the answer.

Here the answer it the same as to the previous question. Either you believe in an everlasting and almighty God or you don't. Why do you question His abilities?

But if almighty God could sustain the life of the most evil being there is, certainly He could have done that with the Israelites during their exodus to Canaan. Don't you agree?

No problem, Arnold

From the beginning it has been Satan's studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Hence he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself,--as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving,--that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. Satan hoped to so confuse the minds of those whom he had deceived that they would put God out of their knowledge. Then he would obliterate the divine image in man and impress his own likeness upon the soul; he would imbue men with his own spirit and make them captives according to his will. {5T 738.1}

Almighty God sees reasons that are hidden to us. God is able to protect someone from death when He sees it fits His purpose.

"Unwilling" seems such a harsh word, but otherwise there is no problem.

Doesn't Scripture tell us God does not want any one to perish? Why does it still happen?

Isaiah 59

King James Version (KJV)

59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 59

New International Version (NIV)
Sin, Confession and Redemption

59 Surely the arm(A) of the Lord is not too short(B) to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.(C)
2 But your iniquities have separated(D)
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.(E)
3 For your hands are stained with blood,(F)
your fingers with guilt.(G)
Your lips have spoken falsely,(H)
and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4 No one calls for justice;(I)
no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely(J) on empty arguments, they utter lies;(K)
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.(L)

Thus, death will occur against God's preference, but it does not occur against His will.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 12:19
Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place unto the wrath of God: for it is written, Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord.

According to the laws of the nature God has created there is no life without a connection with the Life Giver.

This is so because God set things up this way. If He wanted to, almighty God is able to perpetuate the sinner's life forever, right?

And just to be clear, it is God who made it this way, not Satan, right?

Satan wants you to think that eternal death is a punishment and he makes God an angry revenger.

Eternity will never happen until the whole universe understands that God is not an avenger but that the sinner has separated himself from life and therefore would be unhappy to live in the kingdom of Heaven.

Are you trying to give God the responsibility?

Who is fighting against what God has created? God Himself?

A current can be cut off at either end; by the provider or by the receiver. Scripture makes it clear that the current of life is cut off by the receiver - and here we are clearly speaking of life eternal which is the only life that really matters according to the Gospel.

According to the laws of the nature God has created there is no life without a connection with the Life Giver.

Satan wants you to think that eternal death is a punishment and he makes God an angry revenger.

Eternity will never happen until the whole universe understands that God is not an avenger but that the sinner has separated himself from life and therefore would be unhappy to live in the kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 5:43-48.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If He wanted to, almighty God is able to perpetuate the sinner's life forever, right?

If so, then He could have prevented Christ's death if He wanted to. But Jesus definitely died. So that means that God did not want to prevent Christ's death.

The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}

Christ demonstrated that sin causes death. Saving Jesus from death would have been a violation of His character.

We want the truth on every point. We want it unadulterated with error, and unpolluted by the maxims, customs, and opinions of the world. We want the truth with all its inconvenience. The acceptance of truth ever involves a cross. But Jesus gave his life a sacrifice for us, and shall we not give him our best affections, our holiest aspirations, our fullest service? Christ's yoke we must wear, Christ's burden we must lift; but the Majesty of heaven declares that his yoke is easy and his burden light. Shall we shun the self-denying part of religion? Shall we shun the self-sacrifice, and hesitate to give up the world with all its attractions? Shall we, for whom Christ has done so much, be hearers and not doers of his words? Shall we, by our listless, inactive lives, deny our faith, and make Jesus ashamed to call us his brethren? The ten commandments came from the highest authority, and are we obeying them? They are the will of God made known to man. It was Satan that commenced to war against them, and it is he that inspires men to keep up the warfare. {RH, August 25, 1885 par. 15}

Arnold, there are questions connected with the nature of God which require an almighty insight to answer. Are some of your questions approaching this old adage:

If God is almighty could He create a stone which is so heavy that He cannot lift it Himself?

Scripture teaches us that what is revealed about the nature of God is good for us to examine, but what isn´t is none of our business.

Almighty God sees reasons that are hidden to us. God is able to protect someone from death when He sees it fits His purpose.

Those two sentences don't add up in my mind, especially seeing as God and Jesus never sinned.

Blesssings,

Green Cochoa.

It's actually not that complicated or philosophical. You brought up that it is a law of nature that separation from God results in death. Did God create that law of nature? Or is it Satan who made it that way?

If Satan was the one who invented that law, can God override it? You said that God is almighty and we shouldn't even question His ability to do anything He wants to do.

So, either God made that law and He wants it that way, or Satan made that law but God does not want to change it at the moment. Either way, it is not God's will that it be any different at the moment.

We have been in agreement so far. Are you changing your mind? I have not.

FYI, I run a hospice. Death is a daily experience for me.

Saving Jesus from death would be a violation of His Character, WHY? Do you not understand WHY?

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. Angels were so interested for man's salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man. "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing." The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. {EW 127.1}

You see, I believe Jesus willingly and voluntarily chose to sacrifice His life on our behalf. I do not believe that God was forced to do this. In fact, Mrs. White indicates as much, for she says...

Could God have prevented Christ's death? Yes, BUT - what would be the implications for sinners? They would have been lost. Satan's claims would have been sustained, the questions in the great controversy would have been true. Christ demonstrated that sin causes death. Saving Jesus from death would have been a violation of His character.

Shocking, but I agree that Jesus willingly laid down His life. Re-read what I wrote. Could Christ's death have been prevented? What was my answer? YES. But continue - what would have been the implications for sinners? They would have been lost. And God was not going to let them be lost, that would have been a violation of His character. Your quote from Early Writings sustains my view! It was not FORCE to let Jesus die. Sinners also do not die because of the exercise of FORCE. Without the death of Christ, sinners would have been lost. Saving Jesus would have been a contrary to THEIR character, which is others-center, self-sacrificial, non-arbitruary, loving, not exacting, not severe! Sparing Jesus's life, would have have sustained Satan's claims. Christ's sacrifice was not forced! It was voluntary, and if was spared from death, you would have died no matter what.

The difference is you see the death of the wicked as execution by God, euthanasia, what ever. You do not see sin as the causative agent in the death of the wicked. I look to Jesus to see what really happens to the wicked in the end. Christ took on our sin, and it killed Him, He died the death of a sinner. He did not die of execution by God.

Not at all. Thanks!

We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it.

How did Jesus suffer God's wrath?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God's law is immutable, unchangeable.

By the same token, it might be said that God is unchanging (see Malachi 3:6), therefore, He could never sin.

Yet we are told that it was possible for Jesus to have sinned. I believe it is also possible, as Arnold is saying here, for God to change His law--He just doesn't want to, nor ever will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There are many who claim that by the death of Christ the law was abrogated; but in this they contradict Christ's own words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. . . . Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matthew 5:17-18. It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. Could the law have been changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died. By His life on earth He honored the law of God. By His death He established it. He gave His life as a sacrifice, not to destroy God's law, not to create a lower standard, but that justice might be maintained, that the law might be shown to be immutable, that it might stand fast forever. {COL 314.3}

" His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. {COL 315.1}

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.--Ibid., p. 1128. {7ABC 447.4}

This includes - thou shalt not kill; Christ gave a perfect expression of God's law.

"Thou shalt not kill." {PP 308.4}
All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life; the spirit of hatred and revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation or excessive labor that tends to injure health--all these are, to a greater or less degree, violations of the sixth commandment. {PP 308.5}

There are those who say that nothing, not even insects, should be killed. God has not entrusted any such message to His people. It is possible to stretch the command "Thou shalt not kill" to any limit; but it is not according to sound reasoning to do this. Those who do it have not learned in the school of Christ. {3SM 329.1}

What is God's wrath? It is not like your wrath.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Here Jesus describes murder as first existing in the mind. That malice and revenge which would delight in deeds of violence is of itself murder. Jesus goes further still, and says, "Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment." There is an anger that is not of this criminal nature. A certain kind of indignation is justifiable, under some circumstances, even in the followers of Christ. When they see God dishonored, his name reviled, and the precious cause of truth brought into disrepute by those who profess to revere it, when they see the innocent oppressed and persecuted, a righteous indignation stirs their soul; such anger, born of sensitive morals, is not a sin. .... {2SP 219.3}

Not at all. Thanks!

So we agree that there is a law of nature that separation from God results in death. We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it. So far so good?

Now, let's go back to my questions: Would anyone be happy if the sinner was allowed to live forever?

"Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. Christ did not say this.

Clearly, there are "just" acts that shorten life which would be excepted by the above statement. Just such acts are God's and those committed by God's direction.

Again, Mrs. White speaks to this, and shows where the logical end of the reasoning that APL and so many others are following is.



Some here have learned in another school than that of Christ.

...as long as those monarchs were entirely docile to their common lord, the Jesuits were their most faithful supporters. On the other hand, if these princes rebelled, they found in the Jesuits their worst enemies.

"Let us be convinced that all is well and right when the superior commands it", wrote Loyola. And again: "Even if God gave you an animal without sense for masters, you will not hesitate to obey him, as master and guide, because God ordained it to be so."

Arnold, I see now that I have to recant my previous statement about agreeing with you when I see where you are driving it.

Therefore your question if it makes anyone happy is kind of mute, insignificant. It puts you into a world of fairy tales. Yes, it could make the devil happy, but who else? ... So, where does this question take you?

God could change His law if He wanted to.

Again, Mrs. White speaks to this, and shows where the logical end of the reasoning that APL and so many others are following is.



Some here have learned in another school than that of Christ.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So you would recant a truth you hold because it leads to a conclusion that does not suit you. That is a dangerous hermeneutic. If you happened to have a wrong idea, how would it ever be corrected?

In any case, let's dig deeper by backing up. What I am "driving" at is based on two premises:
1) It is a law of nature that separation from God results in death.
2a) Either God created that law of nature and He wants it that way, or
2b) Satan created it, but God is almighty and can change it if He wants.

That's it. Nothing fancy or tricky. I wholeheartedly agree with both.

So, which one would you like to recant?


Before we start worrying about the destination again, let's make sure we are headed in the right direction.

Are you saying that if the sinner was allowed to live forever, Satan would be happy with it? God wouldn't want that situation, and neither would the sinner himself? I just want to be clear that this is what you are saying.

BTW, I would agree with you if you were saying that. Be forewarned.

That all depends on if you will present a tricky conclusion based on this. Unless I have that knowledge I am not able to answer your question, based on some terrible conclusions being presented on this forum. A burnt child avoids the fire.

I wish you were right, Arnold. My experience, thus far on MSDOL, is that if the problem is 4 + 3 + 2 the 4 gets "killed" by poisoned darts as if it did not exist, in order to get the required 5.

This makes it impossible to discuss things reasonably here on this forum.

That all depends on if you will present a tricky conclusion based on this.

The biggest temptation then is to view God and his righteousness as the source of condemnation and death. From this all the other temptations gain their power.

From an old, old thread.

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The pharisees had strict exact rules too! Is God exacting? Satan says so.

Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life. {GC 486.2}

...Because men have received great light, because they have, like the princes of Israel, ascended to the mount, and been privileged to have communion with God, and to dwell in the light of His glory, let them not flatter themselves that they can afterward sin with impunity, that because they have been thus honored, God will not be strict to punish their iniquity. This is a fatal deception. The great light and privileges bestowed require returns of virtue and holiness corresponding to the light given. Anything short of this, God cannot accept. Great blessings or privileges should never lull to security or carelessness. They should never give license to sin or cause the recipients to feel that God will not be exact with them. All the advantages which God has given are His means to throw ardor into the spirit, zeal into effort, and vigor into the carrying out of His holy will. {PP 359.3}

God is no less exacting now than He was in olden times.

So those who are deceived by Satan look upon God as hard and exacting.

Will you, dear reader, examine critically the reasons of your faith by the law and the testimony? Satan has many by-paths strewn with tempting flowers, that lead directly to the broad way to death and hell. Our only safety is in the path of obedience. Men cannot follow their own desires, and be right. They not only involve their own souls in ruin, but by their example they imperil others also. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 6}

God is exact to mark iniquity. Sins of thoughtlessness, negligence, forgetfulness, and even ignorance, have been visited by some of the most wonderfully marked manifestations of his displeasure. Many who have suffered terrible punishment for their sins, might have pleaded as plausibly as do those of today who fall into similar errors, that they meant no harm, and some would even say that they thought they were doing God service; but the light shone on them, and they disregarded it. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 7}

Let us look at some of the examples found in sacred history. Assisted by his sons, Aaron had offered the sacrifices that God required; and he lifted up his hands and blessed the people. All had been done as God commanded, and he accepted the sacrifice, and revealed his glory in a most remarkable manner; for fire came from the Lord, and consumed the offering upon the altar. The people looked upon this wonderful manifestation of divine power with awe and intense interest. They saw in it a token of his glory and his favor, and they raised a universal shout of praise and adoration, and fell on their faces, as if in the immediate presence of Jehovah. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 8}

As the prayers and praise of the people were ascending before God, two of the sons of Aaron took each his censer, and burned fragrant incense thereon, to arise as a sweet odor before God. But they had partaken too freely of wine, and used strange fire, contrary to the Lord's commandment. And the wrath of God was kindled against Nadab and Abihu for their disobedience, and a fire went out from the Lord, and devoured them in the sight of the people. By this judgment God designed to teach the people that they must approach him with reverence and awe, and in his own appointed manner. He is not pleased with partial obedience. It was not enough that in this solemn season of worship nearly everything was done as he commanded. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 9}

The Lord sent Samuel to King Saul with a special message. "Go," he said, "and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Saul was faithful and zealous in performing a part of his commission. He smote the Amalekites with a great slaughter; but he took the proposition of the people before the command of God, and spared Agag, the king, and "the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 10}

The Lord commanded Saul to "utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed." The Lord knew that this wicked nation would, if it were possible, blot out his people and his worship from the earth; and for this reason he had commanded that even the little children should be cut off. But Saul had spared the king, the most wicked and merciless of them all; one who had hated and destroyed the people of God, and whose influence had been strongest to promote idolatry. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 11}

Saul thought he had done all that was essential of that which the Lord commanded him to do. Perhaps he even flattered himself that he was more merciful than his Maker, as do some unbelievers in our day. He met Samuel with the salutation, "Blessed be thou of the Lord; I have performed the commandment of the Lord." But when the prophet asked what meant the bleating of the sheep and the lowing of the oxen which he heard, Saul was obliged to confess that the people had taken of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the Lord in Gilgal. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 12}

Did the Lord accept this justification of Saul's conduct? Was he pleased with this partial obedience, and willing to pass over the trifle that had been neglected out of so good a motive? Saul did what he thought was best, and would not the Lord commend such excellent judgment? No. Said Samuel, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 13}

These instances show how God looks upon his professed people when they obey part of his commandments while in other respects they follow a course of their own choosing. Let no one flatter himself that a part of God's requirements are nonessential. He has placed no command in his word that men may obey or disobey at will, and not suffer the consequences. If men choose any other path than that of strict obedience, they will find that "the end thereof are the ways of death." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 14}

APL,

So you would invalidate truth because you do not know HOW it can be true? Would you say that God will not punish simply because your mind cannot grasp the manner in which God might do this?

Do you believe God's Word that He will punish?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

As the above fits your favorite topic better than the one in which it was posted, I'll respond to it here.

God isn't "exacting," but God is "exact." (Consult a dictionary for the finer points between the two--largely attitude.)



So, God keeps an "exact record." What will He do with it?



She clearly says that it is a "fatal deception" to believe that "God will not be strict to punish their iniquity."

Does God punish? The only correct answer is a resounding "YES!" This should really be the end of this topic, if it weren't for those who choose not to believe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Now I agree with you, Arnold.

So let's get out of our comfort zone.

Whose doing is it that the soul that sins will die? Whose doing is it that the wages of sin is death? Who made it so that separation from God means certain death?

It was God who made things that way. If Satan could have his way, he would have immortal sinners. It is God's will that sinners are NOT immortal.

Are we still in agreement?

Not quite. There is a dimension missing.

Was it God or Satan who brought sin into the universe?

I could have added another question.

Was it for His own good that God brought sin into the universe?

There are some people who make the claim He did?

Your questions are too close to that question for comfort.

Not quite. There is a dimension missing.

Was it God or Satan who brought sin into the universe?

I had skipped ahead of this. I didn't think we needed to cover it. Sorry about that.

Satan brought sin into the universe. But please don't ask me for a mechanism. It is still a mystery to me.

But I don't see how that changes the fact that God was the one who decided that sin always results in death. Satan prefers the "sin and live" philosophy.

I could have added another question.

Was it for His own good that God brought sin into the universe?

There are some people who make the claim He did?

Your questions are too close to that question for comfort.

Answers: No; I know.

I don't mind getting into uncomfortable situations. If I stayed with what I was comfortable with, I would be doomed to error and sin continually.

You are a pastor by training, while I an engineer. It is very easy for me to understand how and why a system, such as the universe, should be designed to handle undesired conditions, such as sin, in as smooth and hamless a way as possible. Just because I design my system to handle error doesn't mean I want or expect error. Such designs are part of engineering training and experience, but might not be included in a pastor's.

Why? Will we ever be able to explain and decide whose fault it is how all the laws of nature function? Perhaps an engineer wants it that way, while I do not need it.

I think I've discovered something interesting now. You see the laws of nature as someone's "fault" rather than something to be thankful for. I disagree. I'll return to it later.

No. I was just responding to what I thought you were saying. Perhaps you did not mean it that way?

It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is “the transgression of the law;” it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}

From Norway we see the news that the Lord saved the lives of Lutheran Missionaries in Nairobi last Saturday.

Was God not with those missionaries who were killed?

Even though God did not intend for sin to enter the universe, it was His plan that death will always come with sin. His original plan was to give eternal life to all, but it was also His plan that the wages of sin is death. Can anyone disagree with this?

Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications; for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate His Father's law. {Con 21.3}

J: Was God not with those missionaries who were killed?

G: Is God obligated to protect us if in His providence He sees more value in allowing harm to come to us?

Jesus can start or stop anything. Nothing happens by chance or fate. Evil angels are not at liberty to cause disease, death, or destruction. Jesus establishes limits and works to ensure evil angels do not exceed them.

Condones?

I have to save you
From what?
From what I'm gonna do to you if you don't let Me in

Titus would willingly have put an end to the fearful scene, and thus have spared Jerusalem the full measure of her doom. He was filled with horror as he saw the bodies of the dead lying in heaps in the valleys. Like one entranced, he looked from the crest of Olivet upon the magnificent temple and gave command that not one stone of it be touched. Before attempting to gain possession of this stronghold, he made an earnest appeal to the Jewish leaders not to force him to defile the sacred place with blood. If they would come forth and fight in any other place, no Roman should violate the sanctity of the temple. Josephus himself, in a most eloquent appeal, entreated them to surrender, to save themselves, their city, and their place of worship. But his words were answered with bitter curses. Darts were hurled at him, their last human mediator, as he stood pleading with them. The Jews had rejected the entreaties of the Son of God, and now expostulation and entreaty only made them more determined to resist to the last. In vain were the efforts of Titus to save the temple; One greater than he had declared that not one stone was to be left upon another. {GC 32.3}
...
After the destruction of the temple, the whole city soon fell into the hands of the Romans. The leaders of the Jews forsook their impregnable towers, and Titus found them solitary. He gazed upon them with amazement, and declared that God had given them into his hands; for no engines, however powerful, could have prevailed against those stupendous battlements. Both the city and the temple were razed to their foundations, and the ground upon which the holy house had stood was "plowed like a field." Jeremiah 26:18. In the siege and the slaughter that followed, more than a million of the people perished; the survivors were carried away as captives, sold as slaves, dragged to Rome to grace the conqueror's triumph, thrown to wild beasts in the amphitheaters, or scattered as homeless wanderers throughout the earth. {GC 35.2}
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. ...

Many teach that matter possesses vital power. They hold that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent power; and that the operations of nature are carried on in harmony with fixed laws, that God himself cannot interfere with. This is false science, and is sustained by nothing in the word of God. Nature is not self-acting; she is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul his laws nor work contrary to them; but he is continually using them as his instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." {ST, March 20, 1884 par. 5}

God has finished his creative work, but his energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of his creation. It is not because the mechanism that has once been set in motion continues its work by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats and breath follows breath; but every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the all-pervading care of Him in whom we live and have our being. It is not because of inherent power that year by year the earth produces her bounties and continues her motion around the sun. The hand of God guides the planets, and keeps them in position in their orderly march through the heavens. It is through his power that vegetation flourishes, that the leaves appear and the flowers bloom. His word controls the elements, and by him the valleys are made fruitful. He covers the heavens with clouds, and prepares rain for the earth; he "maketh grass to grow upon the mountains." "He giveth snow like wool; he scattereth the hoar frost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." {ST, March 20, 1884 par. 6}

Nature does what it does because Jesus wields it to serve His purposes.

Evil angels cannot cause nature to act.

Jesus warning sinners to avoid the coming wrath of God, the seven last plagues is right and loving.

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {GC 589.3}

It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil.

From Norway we see the news that the Lord saved the lives of Lutheran Missionaries in Nairobi last Saturday.

Was God not with those missionaries who were killed?

Rosangela - - PLEASE - Define God's wrath. HINT - Romans 1 is a good place to start.

WHO is being talked about in the quotation? Is it God? NO! What is God's roll in the last plagues? How do God's angels have power to harm the earth? By removing his protection.

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Revelation 15:1)

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16:1)

You serve an interesting God...a God who would send His own angels with vials of His wrath to remove His own protection!

If God wants to remove His protection, or even if He doesn't want to remove it, why would He commission angels to remove His protection? This would imply that He is not in control of His own protection!

In other words, your god is out of control, and can't control himself. The angels must help him to control himself.

My God is in perfect control. He commissions the angels to do HIS WILL.

God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

Many conceive of the Christian's God as a being whose attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. The Creator has been pictured as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgment upon them. In the minds of thousands, love and sympathy and tenderness are associated with the character of Christ, while God is regarded as the law-giver, inflexible, arbitrary, devoid of sympathy for the beings He has made. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 1}

Never was there a greater error. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 3}

APL,

Those quotes are not presented in the context of the seven last plagues. Find some that are.

Meanwhile, what exactly is in the vials that the angels pour out in those plagues?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}