Does God Punish? (Part 3)

Posted By: Daryl

Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 05:45 AM

As the part 2 thread has become way too long for one thread, I have closed that thread and created this part 3 thread in its place.

Here is the link to the last post in the part 2 thread:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=158767#Post158767
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Jsot asks, Is Satan cut off from God now? No. If Satan were completely cut off, He would die. This in integral the the issues in the great controversy.

So all this time, God is keeping Satan alive artificially, letting him suffer thousands of years' worth of sin. All for the sake of the Great Controversy. I thought you didn't believe God would do that.

And I thought you believed that people like Korah died because God HAD to leave them unprotected from natural forces and they died by natural causes. How come God can continue to protect Satan all these years, but not Korah?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 08:41 AM

******* DUPLICATE POST OF #158774 *******
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Jsot asks, Is Satan cut off from God now? No. If Satan were completely cut off, He would die. This in integral the the issues in the great controversy.

So all this time, God is keeping Satan alive artificially, letting him suffer thousands of years' worth of sin. All for the sake of the Great Controversy. I thought you didn't believe God would do that.

And I thought you believed that people like Korah died because God HAD to leave them unprotected from natural forces and they died by natural causes. How come God can continue to protect Satan all these years, but not Korah?
Perhaps you have not read Patriarchs and Prophets chapter 1 recently. To that I would as Great Controversy Chapter 29.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 10:52 AM

What a wonder. I started reading again Patriarchs and Prophets, but have not yet completed the first chapter. I am more determined to use this book as a Christmas present to some loved ones who do not have a copy.

Thank you for the challenge.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: I also have repeatedly said, that the people did execute their enemies, and with God's instructions.


Please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

PS - You wrote, "Never said Moses had unbelief." Why, then, did Jesus command Moses to kill? 1) "Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." 2) "The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: As you can read, there are things that will happen during the final judgment that clearly did not happen when Jesus drank the cup of trembling on the cross. In fact, there are startling dissimilarities. When Jesus paid our sin debt of death the earth was not enveloped in flames and molten lava. Nor did He writhe in flames tailored to punish. Even though He bore the sins of the world, Jesus died in six hours. Not so with sinners. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." The most notable difference, however, is the fact Jesus was alive when He triumphantly cried out, "It is finished." He conquered the cup, the second death and lived to rise on the third day.

A: Hey - I can continue to play the game. Read GC page 36. Tag - your it.

"The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." (GC 36)

Please explain how GC 36 addresses the distinct differences between Jesus' experience (beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha) and the experience of the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire (see GC 672, 673). I ask because you cited Jesus' experience and suggested it reflects how Jesus will punish the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 06:33 PM

APL,

1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin?
2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death?
3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels?
4. How does sin kill sinners?
5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness?
6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?

7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/27/13 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL,

1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin?
2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death?
3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels?
4. How does sin kill sinners?
5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness?
6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?

7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?
As I have observed, you have a very different view of sin than I have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you see sin as a breaking of the rules, a legal problem. Am I right? The understanding of sin is needed in order to understand the answers to these questions.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 01:35 AM

An interesting quotation in the Sabbath School lesson nr. 8:

“Jesus Christ came that He might link finite man with the infinite God, and connect earth that has been divorced by sin and transgression from heaven.”—Ellen G. White, Sermons and Talks, vol. 1, p. 253.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 05:30 AM

APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By: APL

1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin?
2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death?
3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels?
4. How does sin kill sinners?
5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness?
6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?

7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?

A: The understanding of sin is needed in order to understand the answers to these questions.

Please use your favorite definition to answer the questions above.

PS - I believe "sinning" defined means breaking the law of God in thought, word, or deed. I realize you believe in "sin" as a state of doing (thinking, speaking, acting)" and "Sin" as a state of being. Is there also a sense in which "sin" acts like a sentient being and uses the laws of nature to punish sinners? Or, is there a cooperation between sin and the laws of nature so that nature obeys "sin" and acts to punish sinners (when Jesus withdraws His protection)? I'm not speaking of the usual cause and effect of sinning (drink alcohol and get cirrhosis of the liver).
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 06:40 AM

Understanding sin as just thought, word, or deed offers no explanation why all of creation is suffering. How does your thought, word, or deed cause cancer in animals? Perhaps it is just God punishing creation? Do you have an explanation?

No, sin is not "sentient". Yes, there is a cause and effect with sin. As EGW says, "...sin and disease bear to each other the relationship of cause and effect. {CH 25.2} Which rules out God as the cause of any disease. I suggested to you that you listen to several presentations. Have you done that yet? I suspect not.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 07:48 AM

Daryl - no response to this Post?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: APL

1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin?
2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death?
3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels?
4. How does sin kill sinners?
5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness?
6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?
7. What would happen to a sinner who lied about reaching the summit of a mountain if Jesus were to allow sin to run its natural course? How would sin kill him? Would sin use the forces of nature to kill him (like a flood, a fire, a plague, or something of the sort)?

A: The understanding of sin is needed in order to understand the answers to these questions.

M: Please use your favorite definition to answer the questions above.

A: Understanding sin as just thought, word, or deed offers no explanation why all of creation is suffering.

Here's an inspired definition of 'sin":

Quote:
It is the privilege of every sinner to ask his teacher what sin really is. Give me a definition of sin. We have one in 1 John 3. "Sin is the transgression of the law." Now this is the only definition of sin in the whole Bible. {1SAT 228.2}

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin given in the Holy Scriptures, and we should seek to understand what sin is, lest any of us be found in opposition to the God of heaven. We are required to be in a position of obedience to all of God's commandments. {RH, July 15, 1890 par. 2}

Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}

The only definition of sin given in God's Word is transgression of the law. It is not excusable, and has no defence or justification. It will be the final and eternal condemnation of the originator of sin and all the angels who united with him in the heavenly courts, who joined the confederacy of evil, identifying themselves with the great apostate. . . . Sin entered the world by the defection of one who stood at the head of the holy angels. {PC 167.5}

The world is in a sorry state because of what sinners (evil angels and evil people) think, say, and do - not because of what sin thinks, says, and does. Sin cannot do anything. It's not a sentient being.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/28/13 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: MM
The world is in a sorry state because of what sinners (evil angels and evil people) think, say, and do - not because of what sin thinks, says, and does. Sin cannot do anything. It's not a sentient being.
Matthew 8:28 AKJV And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Can we tell what the demoniacs were like by what they thought, what they said, and what they did? NO
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 05:44 AM

APL, what is your definition of sin? Please use it to answer the 7 questions posted above.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, what is your definition of sin? Please use it to answer the 7 questions posted above.
Sin is transgression of the law. What law? Galatians 3 says that law was added because of transgression. What law was added, EGW says, BOTH the ceremonial law and the moral law of 10 commandments. And she says, in particular the moral law. So if sin is transgression of the law, but the 10 commandments were added because of transgression, then we can't use circular logic to say that sin is transgression of the 10 commandments. Yet the 10 commandments do point out sin! The law that was transgressed was the very law of our being, how we were made was changed, a change to God's workmanship. This you can not do. The system is to finely tuned and not one jot or tittle can be changed, or else the system will ultimately fail and collapse. The system will die. The result of transgression is death.

Telling lies is just a symptom of the underlying disease of sin. The simple telling of a lie is not the main problem, it is the underlying transgression of the system that is the cause of the destruction. Your simple example of telling a lie and whack, your dead, is too simplistic and does not view the system as a whole. This is also why lying, adultery, coveting, idolatry and killing are all part of the same issue and are not cleanly separable as you would like them to be. They are not apples and oranges.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 01:01 PM

In some accounts of the Testimonies the Holy Spirit is said to do a given task, in other accounts the Holy angels are given the credit, which one is correct? Are they in opposiostion to each other, or could it be proven that both statements are correct? That both the angels and the Holy Spirit accomplished the end. The Holy Spirit through heavenly angels do the will of the Father after Jesus lovingly commands it in the name of the Father. A line of command embued with the power of the one who sent them.

There is a similar seeming paradox in the destruction of the wicked. In the destruction of the wicked we find as many statements that God has in the past destroyed the wicked through his holy angels or men or catastrophic events and will rain fire on them, as we do that He is not to be presented as an executioner. Which one is correct? They both are.

When there is such a seeming paradox in the record about the Character of God it is very important to acknowledge that we may never know all the variables of the mystery, but our devotion to God, to know Him, if motivated by the Spirit of truth should make us very reluctant to try to discount any of His word to prove our point.

APL seems to think that because the end of the wicked is destruction, God could never even be part of the event because He is creative not destructive. But what he presents dicounts the "strange act" and tries to erace this from scripture. There are a few writings in the testimonies that seem to support his stand but they can as easilly be explained in light of the plain statements of scripture that contradicts what he is saying.

But what does APL do with the hundreds of statements in scripture and the Testimonies that plainly state that God sent an angel or men to kill, or that He breaths fire on the wicked for their final destruction? There is a ballance that he seems predjudice against.

Also; After his fall Satan and his angels were already in the abyss where nothing of God exists. They were "cut off" from the presence of the source of life, God on His throne, and from the tree of life, but not extinguished themselves. The only access they had to light was at the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil where satan manifested to Eve as a serpent. They were let out of their prison and were permitted to come here. Demons are terrified of the abyss and would rather be put in the body of pigs than go there again, especially before their "time" because they can see what scripture says.

Before he fell from heaven Lucifer had time to repent like we do, but after being cast out of heaven he had already passed his probation. Is God with men who are past their probation? Only by allowing the rain to fall and sun to light their world, but not in support.

It is recorded in the book that Satan was fully cast out of heaven since the death of Christ on the cross, that there is no more contact from God. No more counsels he could be privy to. At the execution of the Son of God that was it. He receives no more support of any kind from any source other than his own minion.

I fully agree that Satan has destroyed himself and his followers, and everything they accomplish to the end of their own destruction is as a result of sin. All of the mystery of sin is manifested in the life of Satan.

But Satan dwells here though, so God could not destroy him without destroying us also and He wants to save as many of us as possible. God is allowing the contraversy to prove without a shadow of a doubt that sin destroys and God cannot allow it to survive so He interveigns and delivers us from it's grip. Jesus had to come as a baby, subject to His own creation, to come to the devils territory to expose him, to take back what Satan had usurped.

God does not destroy Satan until the whole universe proclaims his guilt after the books have been examined. The strange act is God's portion but it is none-the-less an act of God, so APL should be as careful about discounting God's word on the matter as he says we should be about attributing to God destructive atributes.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 06:22 PM

jsot - QUOTE - EGW: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". {GC 36.1} What is the sentence against transgression? The second death. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1} Like Israel of old, the wicked - destroy themselves.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: What is your definition of sin? Please use it to answer the 7 questions posted above.

A: Sin is transgression of the law. What law? Galatians 3 says that law was added because of transgression. What law was added, EGW says, BOTH the ceremonial law and the moral law of 10 commandments. And she says, in particular the moral law. So if sin is transgression of the law, but the 10 commandments were added because of transgression, then we can't use circular logic to say that sin is transgression of the 10 commandments. Yet the 10 commandments do point out sin! The law that was transgressed was the very law of our being, how we were made was changed, a change to God's workmanship. This you can not do. The system is to finely tuned and not one jot or tittle can be changed, or else the system will ultimately fail and collapse. The system will die. The result of transgression is death. Telling lies is just a symptom of the underlying disease of sin. The simple telling of a lie is not the main problem, it is the underlying transgression of the system that is the cause of the destruction. Your simple example of telling a lie and whack, your dead, is too simplistic and does not view the system as a whole. This is also why lying, adultery, coveting, idolatry and killing are all part of the same issue and are not cleanly separable as you would like them to be. They are not apples and oranges.

Yes, sin is a systemic problem. No doubt about it. Now, please answer the questions with this definition in mind. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/29/13 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please respond to 158783, 84. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 06:11 AM

APL,

1. Why didn't Eve die the instant she sinned?
2. Why didn't Adam die the instant he sinned?
3. What is preventing evil angels from dying?

Quote:
The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God. {1SM 230.1}

4. Please explain "or else Adam could not have sinned".
5. Please explain "death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor".
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 06:41 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Jsot asks, Is Satan cut off from God now? No. If Satan were completely cut off, He would die. This in integral the the issues in the great controversy.

So all this time, God is keeping Satan alive artificially, letting him suffer thousands of years' worth of sin. All for the sake of the Great Controversy. I thought you didn't believe God would do that.

And I thought you believed that people like Korah died because God HAD to leave them unprotected from natural forces and they died by natural causes. How come God can continue to protect Satan all these years, but not Korah?
Perhaps you have not read Patriarchs and Prophets chapter 1 recently. To that I would as Great Controversy Chapter 29.

So, God has something to do with Satan's continuing suffering. And those who separate from Him don't necessarily die, unless He wants them to. And I thought you were saying God has nothing to do with suffering and death.

"There is a divinely appointed connection between sin and disease."

Yes, God has something to do with it; things don't just happen.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 09:08 AM

APL says that Jesus did not die in Gethsemane, I beg to differ.

Quote:
James - Gethsemane and the cross are linked. Christ was suffering the separation in Gethsemane, but who was watching? No human one on earth! Christ did not die in Gethsemane. He remained very much alive. The final separation occurred on the cross.


"Angels beheld the Saviour’s agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {CSA 33.7}
The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close.... {CSA 33.8} Christ’s agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him. The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury. He came forth calm and serene. A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face. He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.... {CSA 33.9}

The point is that there are two parts to the second death. Jesus in Gethsemane tasted THE death that every man will suffer in the second resurrection. He fell to the ground dying from the anguish but the angel came and resussitated and strengthened him, then he died physically on the cross.

The first thing Peter quoted when under the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the book of Joel, saying the Spirit of Prophecy was upon him in his address to the people of every tongue, then he quoted David;

"Peter did not refer to the teachings of Christ to prove his position, because he knew that the prejudice of his hearers was so great that his words on this subject would be of no effect. Instead, he spoke to them of David, who was regarded by the Jews as one of the patriarchs of their nation. “David speaketh concerning Him,” he declared: “I foresaw the Lord always before My face, for He is on My right hand, that I should not be moved: therefore did My heart rejoice, and My tongue was glad; moreover also My flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave My soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.... {AA 41.3}
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.” “He ... spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.” {AA 42.1}

God would not leave the soul of Jesus in Hades, the place of the spiritually dead, the second death, nor would the Father allow the body of Jesus to see corruption in the grave. TWO distinct phases to the death of Christ foretold by David and addressed in the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Makes sense this would also be a part of the Latter rain message.

There are two phases to the death of the wicked. Jesus suffered them both.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 09:16 AM

And yes the wicked are destroyed by the Father revealing Himself, but there is a conscious act of cleansing in the revelation of the Father.

The righteous have been prepared for the revelation of the Father when the fire falls from heaven to cleanse the earth, the wicked have not, so for the Father to reveal Himself he knows this will destroy the wicked. The curse is pronounced and then the fire from the presence of the Father destroys the wicked, an act of cleansing. His strange act.

He knows it will destroy the wicked to reveal Himself, but this must be done to assure that sin will never arise again.

So how is this not a determined act of the Father?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
And yes the wicked are destroyed by the Father revealing Himself, but there is a conscious act of cleansing in the revelation of the Father.

The righteous have been prepared for the revelation of the Father when the fire falls from heaven to cleanse the earth, the wicked have not, so for the Father to reveal Himself he knows this will destroy the wicked. The curse is pronounced and then the fire from the presence of the Father destroys the wicked, an act of cleansing. His strange act.

He knows it will destroy the wicked to reveal Himself, but this must be done to assure that sin will never arise again.

So how is this not a determined act of the Father?
james - the Spirit of Prophesy says: "God destroys no man." {COL 84.4}

The Spirit of Prophesy says: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". {GC 36.1} What is the sentence against transgression? The second death. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

Don't reject the Spirit of Prophesy.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 12:06 PM

Yes it says God destroys no man, and it also says He breaths fire on the wicked, which one is true?

They both are.

It is not God's fault that anyone parish. He has done everything He could to prevent that. It is most definetely the fault of the wicked that they are destroyed. But even those who never had the chance to reject God, kept in slavery, will be destroyed. They disappear as if they never were born.

Quote:
I saw that the slave master [see Appendix.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master’s lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}


There is a predetermined pattern of the destruction of the wicked, foretold and prophesied about by God, which they brought upon themselves.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 04:22 PM

How to "breath fire" on to some one: Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you.

Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

How does Jesus treat sinners? John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said to her, Woman, where are those your accusers? has no man condemned you? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

How does God treat His enemies when they attack him? Answer - look at Jesus on the cross. There is your answer.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
How to "breath fire" on to some one: Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you.


You know very well that you are totally taking that quote out of context.

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, “Glory; Alleluia!” {EW 54.1}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 11/30/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
How to "breath fire" on to some one: Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you.


You know very well that you are totally taking that quote out of context.

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, “Glory; Alleluia!” {EW 54.1}
Great Controversy 36 is not our context, and applies directly. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. What is the sentence against transgression? The second death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/01/13 01:04 AM

APL, you assume too much. Forcing every inspired insight to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment undermines the integrity of truth.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/01/13 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you assume too much. Forcing every inspired insight to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment undermines the integrity of truth.
MM - have you considered the context of GC 36? It is talking about the second death. If any time it applies, it applies there.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/01/13 06:17 PM

APL, GC 36 describes the "second coming". "Christ has declared that He will come the second time to gather His faithful ones to Himself". GC 672, 673 describes the second death in the lake of fire in terrifying detail. Jesus will employ fire from above and from below to punish resurrected sinners in duration and in intensity according to their sinfulness. The same fire that burns alive the wicked will burn up the rubble and rubbish of the earth. No trace of sin or sinners will remain. Jesus will remake the earth anew - the home of the saved forever and ever. Amen!
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/01/13 08:59 PM

GC 36 is talking about the "sentence against transgression". What is the sentence against transgression? The second death, not the second coming.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/02/13 08:01 PM

"The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

You're right, APL. The punishment for sinning is not a lifetime of suffering and first death. The punishment for sinning is suffering and second death in the lake of fire. GC 672, 673 describes their experience in the lake of fire. There are stark and startling dissimilarities between the suffering and first death Jews experienced in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the suffering and second death sinners will experience in the lake of fire after the Millennium.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

You're right, APL. The punishment for sinning is not a lifetime of suffering and first death. The punishment for sinning is suffering and second death in the lake of fire. GC 672, 673 describes their experience in the lake of fire. There are stark and startling dissimilarities between the suffering and first death Jews experienced in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the suffering and second death sinners will experience in the lake of fire after the Millennium.
And the sinner brings the punishment on themselves.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 11:09 AM

Green - I'll give you a hint, EGW "It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare" {PP 392.3} But, warfare the did have. Why? God wanted it? Nope.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 06:39 PM

APL, you are misapplying PP 392.3.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you are misapplying PP 392.3.
More likely, it does not fit your paradigm, so ignore it, deny it, redefine it, limit it, what ever. "It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare". But you say, it was His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 10:40 PM

Absolutely it was Jesus' plan to use hornets and Hebrews to kill the Canaanites. The Bible and the SOP are crystal clear about it. Jesus commanded the Hebrews to wage war and they refused. Satan was successful. He then commanded them to retreat and they refused. Satan was successful. They attacked and were defeated. He did not command them to attack. Jesus punished them.

Quote:
When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

You believe Jesus commanded the Hebrews to fight because of the hardness of their hearts. You also believe Jesus commanded them to retreat because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus wanted them to fight so Satan wanted them to retreat. Then Jesus wanted them to retreat so Satan wanted them to fight. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". You believe the expression "go up and take" excludes armed conflict. Here's how the same expression is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Then he looks over the vast army, and tells them that the company in the city is small and feeble, and that they can go up and take it, and cast out its inhabitants, and possess its riches and glory themselves. {EW 293.1}

When, nearly forty years later, the Lord directed Israel to go up and take Jericho, He promised to go with them. The ark containing His law was borne before their armies. {PP 393.2}

About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the LORD unto battle, to the plains of Jericho. . . . And the armed men . . . . utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:

Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/06/13 10:42 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You're right, APL. The punishment for sinning is not a lifetime of suffering and first death. The punishment for sinning is suffering and second death in the lake of fire. GC 672, 673 describes their experience in the lake of fire. There are stark and startling dissimilarities between the suffering and first death Jews experienced in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the suffering and second death sinners will experience in the lake of fire after the Millennium.

A: And the sinner brings the punishment on themselves.

Sinners will have no control over the lake of fire that punishes and consumes them.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: You're right, APL. The punishment for sinning is not a lifetime of suffering and first death. The punishment for sinning is suffering and second death in the lake of fire. GC 672, 673 describes their experience in the lake of fire. There are stark and startling dissimilarities between the suffering and first death Jews experienced in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the suffering and second death sinners will experience in the lake of fire after the Millennium.

A: And the sinner brings the punishment on themselves.

Sinners will have no control over the lake of fire that punishes and consumes them.
Read an alternate description of that day:

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 06:35 AM

GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Quote:
Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 06:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Absolutely it was Jesus' plan to use hornets and Hebrews to kill the Canaanites. The Bible and the SOP are crystal clear about it. Jesus commanded the Hebrews to wage war and they refused. Satan was successful. He then commanded them to retreat and they refused. Satan was successful. They attacked and were defeated. He did not command them to attack. Jesus punished them.

Quote:
When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

You believe Jesus commanded the Hebrews to fight because of the hardness of their hearts. You also believe Jesus commanded them to retreat because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus wanted them to fight so Satan wanted them to retreat. Then Jesus wanted them to retreat so Satan wanted them to fight. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". You believe the expression "go up and take" excludes armed conflict. Here's how the same expression is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Then he looks over the vast army, and tells them that the company in the city is small and feeble, and that they can go up and take it, and cast out its inhabitants, and possess its riches and glory themselves. {EW 293.1}

When, nearly forty years later, the Lord directed Israel to go up and take Jericho, He promised to go with them. The ark containing His law was borne before their armies. {PP 393.2}

About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the LORD unto battle, to the plains of Jericho. . . . And the armed men . . . . utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:

Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 07:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Absolutely it was Jesus' plan to use hornets and Hebrews to kill the Canaanites. The Bible and the SOP are crystal clear about it. Jesus commanded the Hebrews to wage war and they refused. Satan was successful. He then commanded them to retreat and they refused. Satan was successful. They attacked and were defeated. He did not command them to attack. Jesus punished them.

Quote:
When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

You believe Jesus commanded the Hebrews to fight because of the hardness of their hearts. You also believe Jesus commanded them to retreat because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus wanted them to fight so Satan wanted them to retreat. Then Jesus wanted them to retreat so Satan wanted them to fight. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". You believe the expression "go up and take" excludes armed conflict. Here's how the same expression is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Then he looks over the vast army, and tells them that the company in the city is small and feeble, and that they can go up and take it, and cast out its inhabitants, and possess its riches and glory themselves. {EW 293.1}

When, nearly forty years later, the Lord directed Israel to go up and take Jericho, He promised to go with them. The ark containing His law was borne before their armies. {PP 393.2}

About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the LORD unto battle, to the plains of Jericho. . . . And the armed men . . . . utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:

Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.


The night was spent in lamentation, but with the morning came a hope. They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused [They were to take the land - not by warfare, but go in. God would take care of them, just as He did when they left Egypt. The people did not fight leaving Egypt, a very powerful nation]; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment [not by there warfare, but by God], but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." [they now wanted to go up, but fighting was not what God commanded them to do, but they now wanted to fight!] Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." [repeat - God did never said, go up and fight] It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare [repeat - it was not God plan that they fight!], but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

We are blinded today if we say the same thing that God wanted them to fight. It was never God's plan for them to fight. Yet, fight they did, and God even met them in their hardness of heart, just as we see with polygamy and divorce.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 06:43 PM

APL, thank you for inserting your comments in the passage above. It helps me understand what you believe.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". You believe the expression "go up and take" excludes armed conflict. Here's how the same expression is used elsewhere:

The expression "go up and take" includes armed attack.

Originally Posted By: APL
God would take care of them, just as He did when they left Egypt.

I find it interesting you feel okay about Jesus killing His enemies (using the forces of nature, evil angels, or evil men) but you are uncomfortable with Him commanding His chosen people to wage war. Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/07/13 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Quote:
Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/08/13 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, thank you for inserting your comments in the passage above. It helps me understand what you believe.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". You believe the expression "go up and take" excludes armed conflict. Here's how the same expression is used elsewhere:

The expression "go up and take" includes armed attack.

Originally Posted By: APL
God would take care of them, just as He did when they left Egypt.

I find it interesting you feel okay about Jesus killing His enemies (using the forces of nature, evil angels, or evil men) but you are uncomfortable with Him commanding His chosen people to wage war. Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.


MM - did you miss this part??? So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." [repeat - God did never said, go up and fight] It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare [repeat - it was not God plan that they fight!], but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.
Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/08/13 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM - did you miss this part??? So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." [repeat - God did never said, go up and fight] It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare [repeat - it was not God plan that they fight!], but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Jesus commanded them to "retreat". They decided to attack. They disobeyed Jesus. "The Lord had never commanded them to 'go up and fight.'" However, as you know, before Jesus commanded them to retreat He commanded them to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". They refused to fight. They were afraid. They disobeyed the command to "go up and take" the Promised Land. The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Due 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/08/13 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/08/13 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Quote:
Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/08/13 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.
What ever you say. Amazing how the faithful PEOPLE were so often defeated.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/09/13 06:37 PM

APL, please address 159093 and 95.

PS - Regarding 159094 please remember you agree Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to kill criminals and combatants.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/10/13 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please address 159093 and 95.

PS - Regarding 159094 please remember you agree Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to kill criminals and combatants.
In the beginning, after leaving Egypt, it was go up and take, not go up and fight.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/10/13 07:01 PM

"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above. At Jericho, holy angels crashed the walls and the Hebrews killed everyone inside with the edge of the sword. Every time Israel encountered enemy soldiers Jesus commanded them to kill them with the edge of the sword. Sometimes holy angels assisted the Jews by killing enemy soldiers themselves.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/10/13 07:03 PM

APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

[quote]Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/10/13 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?
BOTH.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above. At Jericho, holy angels crashed the walls and the Hebrews killed everyone inside with the edge of the sword. Every time Israel encountered enemy soldiers Jesus commanded them to kill them with the edge of the sword. Sometimes holy angels assisted the Jews by killing enemy soldiers themselves.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 06:43 PM

APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above. At Jericho, holy angels crashed the walls and the Hebrews killed everyone inside with the edge of the sword. Every time Israel encountered enemy soldiers Jesus commanded them to kill them with the edge of the sword. Sometimes holy angels assisted the Jews by killing enemy soldiers themselves.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The night was spent in lamentation, but with the morning came a hope. They resolved to redeem their cowardice. [1]When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. [2]They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

[3]God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, [4]but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. [5]They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; [6]"we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. [7]So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. [8]The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." [9]It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}


NOW - FOLLOW THE FLOW

1) God had bidden them to go up and take the land - but they refused
2) THEY determined to seize the land - after they had refused
3) God had appointed a time for them to enter the land.
4) By their wilful refusal, the permission to enter was withdrawn.
5) They distrusted God (unbelief) the power of God to work with them in gaining possession of the land
6) The people said, "we will go up and fight".
7) They were terribly blinded by their transgression!
8) The LORD, NEVER commanded them to "go up and fight". He said, go up and take the land, not fight!
9) Is was NOT His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.

Things never got much better, and in fact the people went backwards not forwards.

Jeremiah 7:17-34
17 See you not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? said the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, my anger and my fury shall be poured out on this place, on man, and on beast, and on the trees of the field, and on the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 Thus said the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you.
24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt to this day I have even sent to you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they listened not to me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
27 Therefore you shall speak all these words to them; but they will not listen to you: you shall also call to them; but they will not answer you.
28 But you shall say to them, This is a nation that obeys not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receives correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
29 Cut off your hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, said the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, said the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcasses of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 10:21 PM

"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/11/13 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Go up and possess" (Strong's 3423) means to seize by force. I proved that to you in the post above.
Strongs 3423 has more meaning that seize by force. And do the words of EGW mean less to you than Strong's? I'll take EGW comments over Strong.

- Original: ירשׁ ירשׁ
- Transliteration: Yarash
- Phonetic: yaw-rash'
- Definition:
1. to seize, dispossess, take possession off, inherit, disinherit, occupy, impoverish, be an heir
a. (Qal)
1. to take possession of
2. to inherit
3. to impoverish, come to poverty, be poor
b. (Niphal) to be dispossessed, be impoverished, come to poverty
c. (Piel) to devour
d. (Hiphil)
1. to cause to possess or inherit
2. to cause others to possess or inherit
3. to impoverish
4. to dispossess
5. to destroy, bring to ruin, disinherit
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 920
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primitive root; to occupy (be driving out previous tenants and possessing in their place); by implication to seize to rob to inherit; also to expel to impoverish to ruin: - cast out consume destroy disinherit dispossess drive (-ing) out enjoy expel X without fail (give to leave for) inherit (-ance -or) + magistrate be (make) poor come to poverty (give to make to) possess get (have) in (take) possession seize upon succeed X utterly.
Total KJV Occurrences: 231
consume, 1
Deu_28:42

destroy, 1
Exo_15:9

disinherit, 1
Num_14:12

dispossess, 2
Num_33:53; Deu_7:17

dispossessed, 2
Num_32:39; Jdg_11:23

drive, 1
Jos_23:5

drove, 1
Jos_15:14

enjoy, 2
Num_36:8; Jos_1:15

expelled, 2
Jos_13:13; Jdg_1:20

have, 1
Jdg_14:15

heir, 9
Gen_15:3; Gen_15:4(2); Gen_21:10; 2Sa_14:7; Pro_30:23; Jer_49:1; Jer_49:2; Mic_1:15

heirs, 1
Jer_49:2

inherit, 20
Gen_15:7; Gen_15:8; Gen_28:4; Lev_20:24; Lev_25:46; Deu_2:31; Deu_16:20; 2Ch_20:11; Psa_25:13; Psa_37:9; Psa_37:11; Psa_37:22; Psa_37:29; Psa_37:34; Isa_54:3; Isa_57:13; Isa_60:21; Isa_65:9; Jer_8:10; Jer_49:1

inheritance, 1
Ezr_9:12

inherited, 2
Psa_105:44; Eze_33:24

inheritor, 1
Isa_65:9

magistrate, 1
Jdg_18:7

out, 49
Exo_34:24; Num_21:32; Num_32:21; Num_33:52; Num_33:55; Deu_4:38; Deu_9:3; Deu_9:4; Deu_9:5; Deu_11:23; Deu_18:12; Jos_3:10(2); Jos_13:6; Jos_13:12; Jos_14:12; Jos_15:63; Jos_16:10; Jos_17:12; Jos_17:13(2); Jos_17:18; Jos_23:9; Jos_23:13; Jdg_1:19(2); Jdg_1:21; Jdg_1:27; Jdg_1:28(2); Jdg_1:29; Jdg_1:30; Jdg_1:31; Jdg_1:32; Jdg_1:33; Jdg_2:21; Jdg_2:23; Jdg_11:24; 1Ki_14:24; 1Ki_21:26; 2Ki_16:3; 2Ki_17:8; 2Ki_21:2; 2Ch_20:7; 2Ch_28:3; 2Ch_33:2; Job_20:15; Psa_44:2; Zec_9:4

poor, 2
1Sa_2:7; Pro_30:9

possess, 95
Gen_22:17; Gen_24:60; Lev_20:24; Num_13:30; Num_14:24; Num_27:11; Num_33:53; Deu_1:8; Deu_1:21; Deu_1:39; Deu_2:24; Deu_2:31; Deu_3:18; Deu_3:20; Deu_4:1; Deu_4:5; Deu_4:14; Deu_4:22; Deu_4:26; Deu_5:31; Deu_5:33; Deu_6:1; Deu_6:18; Deu_7:1; Deu_8:1; Deu_9:1; Deu_9:4; Deu_9:5; Deu_9:6; Deu_9:23; Deu_10:11; Deu_11:8(2); Deu_11:10; Deu_11:11; Deu_11:23; Deu_11:29; Deu_11:31(2); Deu_12:1; Deu_12:2; Deu_12:29; Deu_15:4; Deu_17:14; Deu_18:14; Deu_19:2; Deu_19:14; Deu_21:1; Deu_23:20; Deu_25:19; Deu_28:21; Deu_28:63; Deu_30:5; Deu_30:16; Deu_30:18; Deu_31:3; Deu_31:13; Deu_32:47; Deu_33:23; Jos_1:11(2); Jos_18:3; Jos_23:5; Jos_24:4; Jos_24:8; Jdg_2:6; Jdg_11:23; Jdg_11:24(3); Jdg_18:9; 1Ki_21:18; 1Ch_28:8; Ezr_9:11; Neh_9:15; Neh_9:23; Job_13:26; Isa_14:21; Isa_34:11; Isa_34:17; Isa_61:7; Jer_30:3; Eze_7:24; Eze_33:25; Eze_33:26; Eze_35:10; Eze_36:12; Hos_9:6; Amo_2:10; Amo_9:12; Oba_1:17; Oba_1:19(2); Oba_1:20; Hab_1:6

possessed, 19
Num_21:24; Num_21:35; Deu_3:12; Deu_4:47; Deu_30:5; Jos_1:15; Jos_12:1; Jos_13:1; Jos_19:47; Jos_21:43; Jdg_3:13; Jdg_11:21; Jdg_11:22; 2Ki_17:24; Neh_9:22; Neh_9:24; Neh_9:25; Isa_63:18; Jer_32:23

possessest, 1
Deu_26:1

possesseth, 1
Num_36:8

possession, 5
1Ki_21:15; 1Ki_21:16; 1Ki_21:19; Psa_44:3; Psa_69:35

poverty, 3
Gen_45:11; Pro_20:13; Pro_23:21

succeeded, 3
Deu_2:12; Deu_2:21; Deu_2:22

succeedest, 2
Deu_12:29; Deu_19:1

take, 1
Psa_83:12

upon, 1
Jos_8:7
"""
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.
Did I not answer your question - plainly?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please address 159093 and 95.

PS - Regarding 159094 please remember you agree Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to kill criminals and combatants.
And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 06:04 PM

APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

M: APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?

A: BOTH.

M: APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.

A: Did I not answer your question - plainly?

GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673. The fire described in GC 672, 673 and EW 294 are without a doubt literal. You claim the fire therein portrayed is both literal and symbolic.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

M: The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.

A: And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.

Jesus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 08:41 PM

Many think that the fires of heaven are the only effort God made to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but that is not true. If it were true the argument could be made that God withdrew His presence and revealed His Glory to the plains and this destroyed the wicked, but scripture and the Testimonies disagree with that idea.

Read this account. There are many things like this recorded in the book "the Truth about angels", a compendium of angelic Testimonial.

"The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: “We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.” The strangers whom Lot had endeavored to protect, now promised to protect him, and to save also all the members of his family who would flee with him from the wicked city.... Lot went out to warn his children. He repeated the words of the angels, “Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city.” But he seemed to them as one that mocked.... {TA 76.1}
Lot returned sorrowfully to his home, and told the story of his failure. Then the angels bade him arise, and take his wife and two daughters who were yet in his house, and leave the city.... Stupified with sorrow, he lingered, loath to depart. But for the angels of God, they would all have perished in the ruin of Sodom. The heavenly messengers took him and his wife and daughters by the hand, and led them out of the city. {TA 76.2}
Here the angels left them, and turned back to Sodom to accomplish their work of destruction....." {TA 76.3}

It was the angels of God who accomplished the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits." {GC88 614.2}

"As the curtain was lifted and I was shown the corruption of this age, my heart sickened, my spirit nearly fainted within me. I saw that the inhabitants of the earth were filling up the measure of the cup of their iniquity. God’s anger is kindled and will be no more appeased until the sinners are destroyed out of the earth. Satan is Christ’s personal enemy. He is the originator and leader of every species of rebellion in heaven and earth." {1T 302.1}

Does God punish? Absolutely.

"The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the Garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, and abuse heaped upon God’s dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God’s justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. Every offense against God’s law, however minute, is set down in the reckoning, and when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work for impenitent transgressors that was done to the divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God’s hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming (Manuscript 58, 1897). {3BC 1166.3}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/12/13 08:53 PM

APL should be careful not to attribute what God did to Satan...

"The command must have wrung with anguish that father’s heart: “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering.” Isaac was the light of his home, the solace of his old age, the inheritor of the promised blessing; but he was commanded to shed the blood of that son with his own hand. It seemed a fearful impossibility. {EP 91.5}
Satan was at hand to suggest that he must be deceived, for the divine law commands, “Thou shalt not kill.” God would not require what He had forbidden. {EP 92.1}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/13/13 05:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

M: The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.

A: And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.

Jesus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.

God gave Moses rules for polygamy and divorce, something God HATES. In giving the rules, this in no way proves that this is what GOD desires. It was God's permissive will, to reach the people where they were, because of the hardness of their hearts, the stiffness of their necks. John 1:17 The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. As EGW says, God never desired that the people would fight. Please reread #159163.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/13/13 06:10 PM

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}

Because their understanding was darkened by selfish prejudice, they could not harmonize the power of Christ's convicting words with the humility of His life. They did not appreciate the fact that real greatness can dispense with outward show. This Man's poverty seemed wholly inconsistent with His claim to be the Messiah. They questioned, If He was what He claimed to be, why was He so unpretending? If He was satisfied to be without the force of arms, what would become of their nation? How could the power and glory so long anticipated bring the nations as subjects to the city of the Jews? Had not the priests taught that Israel was to bear rule over all the earth? and could it be possible that the great religious teachers were in error? {DA 242.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/13/13 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/13/13 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

M: APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?

A: BOTH.

M: APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.

A: Did I not answer your question - plainly?

GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673. The fire described in GC 672, 673 and EW 294 are without a doubt literal. You claim the fire therein portrayed is both literal and symbolic.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/13/13 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: esus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.

A: God gave Moses rules for polygamy and divorce, something God HATES. In giving the rules, this in no way proves that this is what GOD desires. It was God's permissive will, to reach the people where they were, because of the hardness of their hearts, the stiffness of their necks.

Where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses to kill criminals and combatants?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/14/13 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?


#159163
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/14/13 04:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses to kill criminals...?"


Leviticus 20:2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him.

The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death

Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.


Numbers 35:17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/14/13 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?

Quote:
A: #159163

1) God had bidden them to go up and take the land - but they refused
2) THEY determined to seize the land - after they had refused
3) God had appointed a time for them to enter the land.
4) By their wilful refusal, the permission to enter was withdrawn.
5) They distrusted God (unbelief) the power of God to work with them in gaining possession of the land
6) The people said, "we will go up and fight".
7) They were terribly blinded by their transgression!
8) The LORD, NEVER commanded them to "go up and fight". He said, go up and take the land, not fight!
9) Is was NOT His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.

Deuteronomy
1:21 Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.
9:23 Likewise when the LORD sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.

Obviously you believe "go up and possess" implies Jesus promised to make room for the Hebrews in Canaan by killing the Canaanites with hornets. I disagree. The facts speak for themselves. Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take Canaan by killing every man, woman, and child. You have repeatedly stated you believe Jesus did indeed command it. Please post passages you believe reflect Jesus commanding it.

Please answer the questions regarding the specific texts posted above.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/14/13 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?

Quote:
A: #159163

1) God had bidden them to go up and take the land - but they refused
2) THEY determined to seize the land - after they had refused
3) God had appointed a time for them to enter the land.
4) By their wilful refusal, the permission to enter was withdrawn.
5) They distrusted God (unbelief) the power of God to work with them in gaining possession of the land
6) The people said, "we will go up and fight".
7) They were terribly blinded by their transgression!
8) The LORD, NEVER commanded them to "go up and fight". He said, go up and take the land, not fight!
9) Is was NOT His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.

Deuteronomy
1:21 Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.
9:23 Likewise when the LORD sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.

Obviously you believe "go up and possess" implies Jesus promised to make room for the Hebrews in Canaan by killing the Canaanites with hornets. I disagree. The facts speak for themselves. Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take Canaan by killing every man, woman, and child. You have repeatedly stated you believe Jesus did indeed command it. Please post passages you believe reflect Jesus commanding it.

Please answer the questions regarding the specific texts posted above.


You have stated your position that the people were to FIGHT their way into Canaan. You have stated your belief it to "possess" means FIGHT. You misquoted scripture and me by saying God would kill the canaanites with hornets. Scripture says no such thing, and neither have I.

I have stated my position. What do you not understand?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/14/13 10:25 PM

God did tell the believers to go up and take possession of the land. But in that context it is the same as walking into the Red Sea or into the Jordan before the waters had parted. They were to take the initiative in faith, and make the effort, and God would open the way.

God didn't want those heathen nations to be destroyed. He drove out all those who refused to submit to His presence. Remember the Shekinah Glory and the Ark of The Covenant went before them. He also used hornets, nature and angels to drive the heathen out. But when the heathen refused to leave and instead fought the people of God, then it was that God called men of valor to battle for Him.

Only the faithful were called to raise arms against the wicked. They were empowered by God just like Samson to destroy the wicked who refused to submit or depart. Even in God's own camp did He call for Moses to destroy the wicked. All those who refused to repent at making the graven image of the Golden Calf were destroyed.

God used nature, angels, warriors or even fire from His presence to do His will in cleansing the camp.

Numbers 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

Exodus 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.

Judges 6:16 And the Lord said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
I have stated my position. What do you not understand?

You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not. You have rejected the texts I posted.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
I have stated my position. What do you not understand?

You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not. You have rejected the texts I posted.
You repeated do not understand what I have said. It was not God's plan that the people fight their way into Canaan and more that they were required to fight their way out of Egypt. The land was given to them as a gift. But the disbelieved God! The did not go in and possess the land as God had commanded. Then in continued violation, they tried to go fight and failed miserably. IF they had followed God's plan, they would not have needed to fight nor were the Canaanites necessarily needed to be killed. God was to drive them out slowly, not in one year, etc... as Scripture says. But the people did not follow God. Did God abandon them? Nope. God still gave them instructions in how to fight using THEIR chosen methods. Just as God gave them instructions in how to manage divorce and polygamy. War God hates. Divorce God hates. Polygamy God hates. It was only God meeting the people where they were that God gave them these instructions, which also does not lead to eternal life. They needed to see God as He really was. Some got it, most did not. Christ ultimately came and gave a true view of God's character. Jesus's life is the answer to the real truth about what God is like.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 06:54 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
"God still gave them instructions in how to fight using THEIR chosen methods... It was only God meeting the people where they were that God gave them these instructions, which also does not lead to eternal life. They needed to see God as He really was. Some got it, most did not. Christ ultimately came and gave a true view of God's character. Jesus's life is the answer to the real truth about what God is like.


So it's not evil if God tells them how to kill, APL?

You are really crossing lines here.

The injustice of your perception is beyond comprehension.

Please look at Deuteronomy 20 and you will find that the Canaanites had crossed the line in how they received the people of God.

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

APL, you really need to do some soul searching in what you are trying to teach others, you do not know the truth on this matter.

God COMMANDED that the influence of those heathen nations were destructive in themselves and He wanted nothing left of them. IT WAS A COMMAND FROM GOD TO DESTROY THEM, GET IT?

They were the ones who mocked everything about God and did everything to destroy the people of God. Demons directed their every move. They would be like Satanists by discent. Nothing good was in their hearts ever. They had reached the end of God's forbearance.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 07:01 AM

God showed how far the Canaanites had transgressed in a special way for the people of Sodom and Gammorah.

"And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha." [Genesis 10:19]
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
"God still gave them instructions in how to fight using THEIR chosen methods... It was only God meeting the people where they were that God gave them these instructions, which also does not lead to eternal life. They needed to see God as He really was. Some got it, most did not. Christ ultimately came and gave a true view of God's character. Jesus's life is the answer to the real truth about what God is like.


So it's not evil if God tells them how to kill, APL?

You are really crossing lines here.

The injustice of your perception is beyond comprehension.

Please look at Deuteronomy 20 and you will find that the Canaanites had crossed the line in how they received the people of God.

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

APL, you really need to do some soul searching in what you are trying to teach others, you do not know the truth on this matter.

God COMMANDED that the influence of those heathen nations were destructive in themselves and He wanted nothing left of them. IT WAS A COMMAND FROM GOD TO DESTROY THEM, GET IT?

They were the ones who mocked everything about God and did everything to destroy the people of God. Demons directed their every move. They would be like Satanists by discent. Nothing good was in their hearts ever. They had reached the end of God's forbearance.

It was never God's plan that the people fight their way into Canaan. But they refused to follow God's plan. Just as they refused to follow God's plan with marriage. Did God abandon them? No. As to the commands to destroy their enemies, only those whose cup of iniquity was full did God command to destroy. But if the people had followed God's advice, they never would have needed to fight. Just as when they left Egypt. 2 Chronicles 20 gives a clear example of what would have happened if Israel would have trusted God to take care of them.

Now did Israel utterly destroy their enemies? Nope. So again, they CONTINUED NOT to follow God's instructions.

What was God's plan initially after leaving Egypt? Why did the people fight?

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Why are we still so blind today?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
A: I have stated my position. What do you not understand?

M: You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not. You have rejected the texts I posted.

A: You repeated do not understand what I have said. It was not God's plan that the people fight their way into Canaan and more that they were required to fight their way out of Egypt. The land was given to them as a gift. But the disbelieved God! The did not go in and possess the land as God had commanded. Then in continued violation, they tried to go fight and failed miserably. IF they had followed God's plan, they would not have needed to fight nor were the Canaanites necessarily needed to be killed. God was to drive them out slowly, not in one year, etc... as Scripture says. But the people did not follow God. Did God abandon them? Nope. God still gave them instructions in how to fight using THEIR chosen methods. Just as God gave them instructions in how to manage divorce and polygamy. War God hates. Divorce God hates. Polygamy God hates. It was only God meeting the people where they were that God gave them these instructions, which also does not lead to eternal life. They needed to see God as He really was. Some got it, most did not. Christ ultimately came and gave a true view of God's character. Jesus's life is the answer to the real truth about what God is like.

Where in the Bible does it say what you believe? You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not.

Where in the Bible does Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to attack and kill every man, women, and child in the Promised Land?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By: APL

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}


You are totally misapplying this text APL. The people had slighted God's command to enter the promissed land when He told them to, then they discided to take the land by force without God telling them to which WAS AGAINST GOD'S PLAN.

God did not want them to go without Him. It is not that God did not want them to possess the land but not at that time because of their unbelief.

But when God did tell them to go possess the land after everyone who neglected God were already dead, THEN they were given explicit instruction in dealing with the people they would encounter. The Canaanites were among those who God wanted destroyed and He gave them instructions not to let them live. IT WAS NOT THEIR DIVISING it was God's.

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. “We have sinned against the Lord,” they cried; “we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us.” Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to “go up and fight.” It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/15/13 10:31 PM

It's like you are saying that God did evil in telling them to destroy the Canaanites.

God wanted them to be happy so he gave them instructions in how to kill the canaanites? It was against His will but he let them do it? What kind of wishy washy God do you think we serve?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
A: I have stated my position. What do you not understand?

M: You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not. You have rejected the texts I posted.

A: You repeated do not understand what I have said. It was not God's plan that the people fight their way into Canaan and more that they were required to fight their way out of Egypt. The land was given to them as a gift. But the disbelieved God! The did not go in and possess the land as God had commanded. Then in continued violation, they tried to go fight and failed miserably. IF they had followed God's plan, they would not have needed to fight nor were the Canaanites necessarily needed to be killed. God was to drive them out slowly, not in one year, etc... as Scripture says. But the people did not follow God. Did God abandon them? Nope. God still gave them instructions in how to fight using THEIR chosen methods. Just as God gave them instructions in how to manage divorce and polygamy. War God hates. Divorce God hates. Polygamy God hates. It was only God meeting the people where they were that God gave them these instructions, which also does not lead to eternal life. They needed to see God as He really was. Some got it, most did not. Christ ultimately came and gave a true view of God's character. Jesus's life is the answer to the real truth about what God is like.

Where in the Bible does it say what you believe? You have repeatedly stated that Jesus commanded His chosen people, through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges, to attack the Canaanites and to kill every man, women, and child with the edge of the sword. I have repeatedly asked you to post the texts where Jesus said so. So far you have not.

Where in the Bible does Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to attack and kill every man, women, and child in the Promised Land?
I have NEVER said that the people were to kill EVERY man, women and child in the Promised Land. There were battles in which they were to kill everything that breaths! This included animals!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 05:42 PM

How about you James. Do you believe in right and wrong? That is, do you believe certain acts are wrong no matter who does them? Or are you one who believes that there are no right and wrong acts, but only determined by who does them as to whether they are right or wrong?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
There were battles in which they were to kill everything that breaths! This included animals!

Where in the Bible did Jesus command His chosen people to kill everything that breathes?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
There were battles in which they were to kill everything that breaths! This included animals!

Where in the Bible did Jesus command His chosen people to kill everything that breathes?
IF you are speaking about the NT, then no. And yes, I do believe that God as revealed by Christ is the clearest evidence of what God is like. And yes, I do not believe that is was God's desire that Israel to ever take the promised land by force. And no, Jesus never killed anyone, see {CTr 248.4} and {CTr 322.2}. God's methods are NOT those used by the Israelites most of the time.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 08:26 PM

Kland, is it right to obey Jesus?

Deuteronomy
13:12 If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Where in the Bible did Jesus command His chosen people to kill everything that breathes?

A: IF you are speaking about the NT, then no. And yes, I do believe that God as revealed by Christ is the clearest evidence of what God is like. And yes, I do not believe that is was God's desire that Israel to ever take the promised land by force. And no, Jesus never killed anyone, see {CTr 248.4} and {CTr 322.2}. God's methods are NOT those used by the Israelites most of the time.

Did you really, truly not honor my request? This is like the 5th time you have refused to honor my request.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Where in the Bible did Jesus command His chosen people to kill everything that breathes?

A: IF you are speaking about the NT, then no. And yes, I do believe that God as revealed by Christ is the clearest evidence of what God is like. And yes, I do not believe that is was God's desire that Israel to ever take the promised land by force. And no, Jesus never killed anyone, see {CTr 248.4} and {CTr 322.2}. God's methods are NOT those used by the Israelites most of the time.

Did you really, truly not honor my request? This is like the 5th time you have refused to honor my request.
OK. I assure you, it is not personal...
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 09:39 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
How about you James. Do you believe in right and wrong? That is, do you believe certain acts are wrong no matter who does them? Or are you one who believes that there are no right and wrong acts, but only determined by who does them as to whether they are right or wrong?


I prayed about this subject three times. Every time my mind is lead to the disobedience of Adam.

I believe that the execution of justice is still righteousness.

It is not the fault of God that we chose to sin. He cannot permit sin to endure or it would detsroy everything.

When God said "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die" it was not a wicked thing for God to do. He gave every way of righteousness to be fulfilled. If Adam had refused to submit to the authority of God and instead refused to repent, that day the same angel that protected him in the garden would have been commissioned to destroy Adam.

That is a righteous fact.

The same angel who helped Adam in the garden was who barred him from the tree of life. This is a mortal death sentence. In the future, at the second resurrection that angel will be moved from his post and enjoy the fruit with Adam.

In this event is everything you need to see the righteousness of God in what you are questioning. I am assured of this for you.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 09:52 PM

Adam was created under probation... most people who question the righteousness of the execution of justice do not comprehend this point.

All the unfallen worlds still have the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to contend with, with demons taunting them to sin. They are still under probation like Adam was.

Adam was tested before he could be permitted to fully enter into the presence of the Father. He fell and this cut us off from God's presence. Jesus came into a fallen world to rescue us, He could have failed and been destroyed with us if He sinned.

Jesus restored life to this planet. Everyone else who rejects Him are marked for the second death which concludes with fire from the Father which will not burn out until every sin has been paid for.

Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 10:22 PM

Do a study on the "lightning from heaven". In this study you will find all the direct judgments from the Father.

"This murmuring soon infected nearly the whole body of the people. At first, God did not gratify their lustful appetites, but caused His judgments to come upon them, and consumed the most guilty by lightning from heaven. Yet this, instead of humbling them, only seemed to increase their murmurings. {CD 376.1}

"At the ninth hour the darkness lifted from the people, but still enveloped the Saviour. It was a symbol of the agony and horror that weighed upon His heart. No eye could pierce the gloom that surrounded the cross, and none could penetrate the deeper gloom that enshrouded the suffering soul of Christ. The angry lightnings seemed to be hurled at Him as He hung upon the cross. Then “Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” As the outer gloom settled about the Saviour, many voices exclaimed: The vengeance of heaven is upon Him. The bolts of God’s wrath are hurled at Him, because He claimed to be the Son of God. Many who believed on Him heard His despairing cry. Hope left them. If God had forsaken Jesus, in what could His followers trust? {DA 754.3}

"They had covenanted to obey His authority. Their murmuring was now rebellion, and as such it must receive prompt punishment if Israel was to be preserved from anarchy and ruin. “The fire of Jehovah burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.” The most guilty of the complainers were slain by lightning from the cloud. {EP 265.1}

Either we accept the fires from heaven that consumed the sacrifice, or the fires consume the impenetant.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 10:57 PM

One more point to drive it home...

What is the lightning from heaven? Righteous angels doing the direct will of the Father...

"As God’s messengers they go forth, like “the appearance of a flash of lightning,” (Ezekiel 1:14), so dazzling their glory, and so swift their flight. The angel that appeared at the Saviour’s tomb, his countenance “like lightning, and his raiment white as snow,” caused the keepers for fear of him to quake, and they “became as dead men.” Matthew 28:3, 4. When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, “it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand.” There were “cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains,” from the army of Sennacherib. “So he returned with shame of face to his own land.” 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {GC 511.3}

"then, suddenly as the lightning flashes from the heavens, will come the end of their bright visions and delusive hopes." {GC88 338.2}

At the flood ..."The people first beheld the destruction of the works of their own hands. Their splendid buildings, and the beautiful gardens and groves where they had placed their idols, were destroyed by lightning from heaven, and the ruins were scattered far and wide. The altars on which human sacrifices had been offered were torn down, and the worshipers were made to tremble at the power of the living God, and to know that it was their corruption and idolatry which had called down their destruction. {PP 99.2}

Angels flash forth from the cloud of glory to destroy the wicked at the second coming.

"The mysterious cloud changed to a pillar of fire before their astonished eyes. The thunders pealed and the lightnings flashed. “The clouds poured out water; the skies sent out a sound: Thine arrows also went abroad. The voice of Thy thunder was in the whirlwind; the lightning lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.” Psalm 77:17, 18, R.V. {PP 287.3}

"No sooner is the prayer of Elijah ended than flames of fire, like brilliant flashes of lightning, descend from heaven upon the upreared altar, consuming the sacrifice, licking up the water in the trench, and consuming even the stones of the altar. The brilliancy of the blaze illumines the mountain and dazzles the eyes of the multitude. In the valleys below, where many are watching in anxious suspense the movements of those above, the descent of fire is clearly seen, and all are amazed at the sight. It resembles the pillar of fire which at the Red Sea separated the children of Israel from the Egyptian host. {PK 152.4}

"Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz. His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude” (Daniel 10:2-6). {SL 49.2}

—"Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones ... [Psalm 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}

"But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false Christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image,—the very class upon whom the Bible declares that God’s unmingled wrath shall be poured out. And, furthermore, Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ’s advent. The Scriptures teach that “as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be;” [Matthew 24:27.] that he “cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him;” [Revelation 1:7.] that he will “descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God;” [1 Thessalonians 4:16.] that he will “come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,” [Matthew 25:31.] and will “send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect.” [Matthew 24:31.] Those who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the testimony of the Scriptures they will detect the deceiver in his disguise. {4SP 443.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/16/13 11:13 PM

"But Christ came suddenly into the temple courts; divinity flashed through humanity, and, raising a whip of small cords in his hands, with a voice that they will hear again in the execution of the judgment, he said, “Take these things hence.” “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.” These priests and rulers saw as it were an avenging angel with a flaming sword, such as guarded the way to the tree of life. {SpTA07 54.1}

Meditate on this next righteous image and God will answer your prayer for understanding...

"While man lived near God, the altars were lighted by fire from heaven... each brought an offering to the gate of the garden (of Eden)... The lamb was laid upon the altar, and fire flashed from the shining sword of the cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life, and the sacrifice was consumed." {SDP 136.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/17/13 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did you really, truly not honor my request? This is like the 5th time you have refused to honor my request.

A: OK. I assure you, it is not personal...

What?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/18/13 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, is it right to obey Jesus?
What does your comment about obeying have to do with being able to determine the difference between right and wrong acts?

Didn't people "obey" Hitler?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/18/13 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland
How about you James. Do you believe in right and wrong? That is, do you believe certain acts are wrong no matter who does them? Or are you one who believes that there are no right and wrong acts, but only determined by who does them as to whether they are right or wrong?


I prayed about this subject three times. Every time my mind is lead to the disobedience of Adam.

I believe that the execution of justice is still righteousness.

It is not the fault of God that we chose to sin. He cannot permit sin to endure or it would detsroy everything.

When God said "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die" it was not a wicked thing for God to do. He gave every way of righteousness to be fulfilled. If Adam had refused to submit to the authority of God and instead refused to repent, that day the same angel that protected him in the garden would have been commissioned to destroy Adam.

That is a righteous fact.

The same angel who helped Adam in the garden was who barred him from the tree of life. This is a mortal death sentence. In the future, at the second resurrection that angel will be moved from his post and enjoy the fruit with Adam.

In this event is everything you need to see the righteousness of God in what you are questioning. I am assured of this for you.
You said lots and over several posts. But sounds like you are agreeing with MM, that there are no wrong and right acts, that they are determined by the person doing them.

Or perhaps you are making a Greenism, and saying wrong really is right.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: Kland, is it right to obey Jesus?

Deuteronomy
13:12 If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

K: What does your comment about obeying have to do with being able to determine the difference between right and wrong acts? Didn't people "obey" Hitler?

Jesus said, "do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God" "smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword". Killing with the edge of the sword was right. Jesus commanded it. Are you comparing obeying Jesus and obeying Hitler?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 04:11 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
"right and wrong acts . . . are determined by the person doing them.

He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 04:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
"right and wrong acts . . . are determined by the person doing them.

He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}


Yes! And HOW does God do it? {GC 36.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 04:33 AM

". . . God drowned the vast world." How? He used water. PP 90-104.

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 05:56 AM

GC 36.1
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 08:30 AM

"The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, “Love your enemies.” God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom his judgments are visited. He would make them happy if he could do so in accordance with the laws of his government and the justice of his character. He surrounds them with the tokens of his love, he grants them a knowledge of his law, and follows them with the offers of his mercy; but they despise his love, make void his law, and reject his mercy. While constantly receiving his gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that he abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided....
The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
Like the waters of the flood, the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable.....
It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace. {GC88 542-543}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 09:03 AM

And HOW does God execute justice? GC 36.1
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 07:52 PM

Yes, MM, I understand that you do not distinguish between right and wrong. That's why you cannot see that you have the wrong view of God. Because you see there is no wrong.

Quote:
Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 08:45 PM

Kland, it was right for Moses to obey Jesus and kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong for Noah or Lot to drown or burn unrepentant sinners. But it was right for Jesus to do it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 08:50 PM

The following descriptions do not reflect the withdraw and permit principle of punishment:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
". . . God drowned the vast world." How? He used water. PP 90-104.

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

Nature is not self-acting. Water cannot flow or flood without Jesus. Water flows because Jesus makes it flow.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/19/13 09:22 PM

God called forth serpents to bite the child of Israel in the desert too! The serpents were His weapons. The serpents were His arsenal.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
[quote=kland] Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}




Yes! And HOW does God do it? {GC 36.1}


God sends his angels with His divine mandate and they become the deliveres of His justice.

"The heavenly messengers took Lot and his wife and daughters by the hand and led them out of the city. {PP 160.1}
Here the angels left them, and turned back to Sodom to accomplish their work of destruction.

"The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: “We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.” {PP 159.3}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 08:40 AM

But of course you have some neat little way to explain these words away don't you APL?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
But of course you have some neat little way to explain these words away don't you APL?
I don't need neat little words. All I need is the truth. Hosea 11:8 is a good place to start.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 06:25 PM

APL, you believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. I agree nothing happens without Jesus' say so. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. Do you also believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

On another note, you have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. I'm curious as to why. Why won't you post them? Please explain why you have refused to post them. Do you truly believe it? If so, why not post the passages that say so?

Also, you have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. Why do you think nature can act in and of itself when the SOP plainly says it is not so? And, do you think it represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 07:24 PM

MM - by taking your reasoning, God is the cause of everything, good and bad. God is the cause of all disease. God is the cause of all death. God is evil and good. I wonder if you think there is free will or not...
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/20/13 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
K: What does your comment about obeying have to do with being able to determine the difference between right and wrong acts? Didn't people "obey" Hitler?

Jesus said, "do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God" "smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword". Killing with the edge of the sword was right. Jesus commanded it. Are you comparing obeying Jesus and obeying Hitler?

But you cannot distinguish between the two, can you?

People believed Hitler was a god, or at least someone in control. He told them to "kill criminals and combatants". Does that mean it was right?

You are saying that both Hitler and God told people to do acts. The exact same act. But because of one, of your choosing, you whitewash that act into "right". Someone else may choose Hitler and consider it was "right". In fact, many did. That does not make it right. You need to prophesy again, to go and understand what was happening in Israel's day, why they got to that point. I keep coming back to who killed Saul. But that will do no good to ask you as you have already said you believed God planned, intended, overruled events to directly and intentionally kill Saul.


The Inquisition is the same way. That's why your attitude, whether expressed by yourself or others, is why it did happen and why it will happen again.

Because you, and they, make no distinction between right and wrong.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 01:29 AM

All I can say is wow.

Kland and APL seem to think God is on the same level as fallen men or Satan, or even Hitler.

God sees everything, and He is perfect in Mercy and truth while in no wise aquitting the guilty.

You take the statements that say God is not the cause of sin and twist it to mean God will not execute justice against the wicked.

The Father cannot be contained by the highest heaven yet you can discount all the direct statements in scripture that said God destroys the wicked by sending His angels and instead you build your whole argument based off of the Testimony taken out of context, yet both of you agree that we should go to scripture first.

You both have a very unballanced way of delivering the testimonies. When there seems to be a discrepancy between the record of the Testimonies it is only because of our perception. You have not answered why there are so moany direct quotes from scripture and the Testimonies to support how God destroys the wicked yet you cover your ears and go "bla bla bla" and avoid the direct contradiction of your beliefs that you are trying to teach to others in God's name. Interesting...
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 04:02 AM

james - consider the following carefully.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

As the seed sown produces a harvest, and this in turn is sown, the harvest is multiplied. In our relation to others, this law holds true. Every act, every word, is a seed that will bear fruit. Every deed of thoughtful kindness, of obedience, or of self-denial, will reproduce itself in others, and through them in still others. So every act of envy, malice, or dissension is a seed that will spring up in a "root of bitterness" (Hebrews 12:15), whereby many shall be defiled. And how much larger number will the "many" poison. Thus the sowing of good and evil goes on for time and for eternity. {COL 85.1}

God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 04:20 AM

What you are quoting describes the Jury instructions from God to the saints, proving how God judged in righteousness.

Everyone who is destroyed (BY LIGHTNING FROM HEAVEN) will have destroyed himself.

The total blame is upon everyone who slighted God's mercy.

God is not responsible for their disobediance. They are responsible. That is how everyone who is destroyed destroys himself.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
james - consider the following carefully.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.


Consider this carefully, APL. By your words, I can imagine the wicked reaching into their own rib cages and grabbing out their own hearts. But if a fire were to devour them, then they had not destroyed themselves--something else did that, didn't it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
james - consider the following carefully.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.


Consider this carefully, APL. By your words, I can imagine the wicked reaching into their own rib cages and grabbing out their own hearts. But if a fire were to devour them, then they had not destroyed themselves--something else did that, didn't it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I wonder how Ellen got it so wrong...
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
What you are quoting describes the Jury instructions from God to the saints, proving how God judged in righteousness.

Everyone who is destroyed (BY LIGHTNING FROM HEAVEN) will have destroyed himself.

The total blame is upon everyone who slighted God's mercy.

God is not responsible for their disobediance. They are responsible. That is how everyone who is destroyed destroys himself.


I see. God destroys no man, and God is not responsible when He does destroy them. Yeah, makes sense. frown

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 06:10 AM

The wicked alive at the second coming have to go through a death by fire experience twice. They are consumed by the lightning from heaven at the seocnd coming AND the second death.

"Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 7:946 (1907). {LDE 26.3}

Lightning from heaven is the angels of God.

One of the most exalted order of angels is sent from Heaven; his countenance is like the lightning, and his garments white as snow. He parts the darkness from his track, and the whole heavens are lit with his resplendent glory. The sleeping soldiers start simultaneously to their feet, and gaze with awe and wonder at the open, lighted heavens, and the vision of brightness which approaches. The earth trembles and heaves; soldiers, officers, and sentinels all fall as dead men prostrate upon the earth. The evil angels, who have triumphantly claimed the body of Christ, flee in terror from the place. One of the mighty, commanding angels who has, with his company, been keeping watch over the tomb of his Master, joins the powerful angel who comes from Heaven; and together they advance directly to the sepulcher. {3SP 191.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 06:25 AM

And again, I totally agree that the Spirit of God is withdrawn at the second death. No Holy Spirit, or Holy angels trying to guide the hearts of men outside the gates.

They are cut off (second death). But they at first do not even see the futility of their attempt to go to war with God. It is not until God shows every person outside how they were lost, and how Satan was the archetect of their destruction, that the lost realize they are lost; and that is when they begin to see everything they lost, and this is what causes their torment.

When they turn on Satan, lightning from heaven (angels) ignite the storehouse of flamables in the earth and the resulting fire slowly consumes the wicked in a state of prolonged agony in proportion to the pain they caused in their lives. They pay for their own sins. Not everyone who sees the second death will be punished in agony either, they will just dissappear like they were never born, it is all proportunate to their sins. Satan burns the longest because final penalty for the confessed sins of God's people are finally put on the head of the scapegoat and led to the valley of forgetfulness. Extinction, where even their memory is forgotten by God. Perdition.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, you believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. I agree nothing happens without Jesus' say so. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. Do you also believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning? On another note, you have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. I'm curious as to why. Why won't you post them? Please explain why you have refused to post them. Do you truly believe it? If so, why not post the passages that say so? Also, you have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. Why do you think nature can act in and of itself when the SOP plainly says it is not so? And, do you think it represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

A: MM - by taking your reasoning, God is the cause of everything, good and bad. God is the cause of all disease. God is the cause of all death. God is evil and good. I wonder if you think there is free will or not...

Please address my comments and questions.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
K: What does your comment about obeying have to do with being able to determine the difference between right and wrong acts? Didn't people "obey" Hitler?

M: Jesus said, "do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God" "smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword". Killing with the edge of the sword was right. Jesus commanded it. Are you comparing obeying Jesus and obeying Hitler?

K: But you cannot distinguish between the two, can you? People believed Hitler was a god, or at least someone in control. He told them to "kill criminals and combatants". Does that mean it was right? You are saying that both Hitler and God told people to do acts. The exact same act. But because of one, of your choosing, you whitewash that act into "right". Someone else may choose Hitler and consider it was "right". In fact, many did. That does not make it right. You need to prophesy again, to go and understand what was happening in Israel's day, why they got to that point. I keep coming back to who killed Saul. But that will do no good to ask you as you have already said you believed God planned, intended, overruled events to directly and intentionally kill Saul. The Inquisition is the same way. That's why your attitude, whether expressed by yourself or others, is why it did happen and why it will happen again. Because you, and they, make no distinction between right and wrong.

Do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants? If so, please post texts.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, you believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. I agree nothing happens without Jesus' say so. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. Do you also believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning? On another note, you have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. I'm curious as to why. Why won't you post them? Please explain why you have refused to post them. Do you truly believe it? If so, why not post the passages that say so? Also, you have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. Why do you think nature can act in and of itself when the SOP plainly says it is not so? And, do you think it represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

A: MM - by taking your reasoning, God is the cause of everything, good and bad. God is the cause of all disease. God is the cause of all death. God is evil and good. I wonder if you think there is free will or not...

Please address my comments and questions.


Answer me this - do we have free will nor not, and I will answer you.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/21/13 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants? If so, please post texts.


Leviticus 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Joshua 7:20 And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the Lord God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

21 When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

22 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

23 And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the Lord.

24 And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

Exodus 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/22/13 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
M: APL, you believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. I agree nothing happens without Jesus' say so. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. Do you also believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning? On another note, you have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. I'm curious as to why. Why won't you post them? Please explain why you have refused to post them. Do you truly believe it? If so, why not post the passages that say so? Also, you have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. Why do you think nature can act in and of itself when the SOP plainly says it is not so? And, do you think it represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

A: Answer me this - do we have free will nor not, and I will answer you.

Yes.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 06:04 AM

Not sure how can believe there is free will. How can there be free will is God is going to punish you for every bad thing you do. It is love me, or I will kill you! There is no free will in the scenario. Love can not be commanded. You believe that nothing happens unless Jesus says so. Thus rape is only be permission of God. The Lord's prayer asks for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, why? Because God's will is not being done on earth.

Death and destruction is caused by sin. ALL of it. God has given us freedom to think and do. God has given us also instruction on what we can not do, not because if we do God will punish us, but because if we do, it will destroy us. We can not violate God's law, and God's law is the instructions he put into each and every thing that God has made. Satan perverted his freedom. He was created perfect, until iniquity was found in him, (Ezekiel 28:12-15). I read the Bible literally unless it is an obvious figure, this is following #11 of Miller's rules of interpretation. Iniquity is a real and physical entity, it is the sin with in. Satan and his angels did not keep their first estate, and left their own habitation, Jude 6. They corrupted themselves as Ezekiel 28:18 say, You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities.

By the freedom God has given all, we can choose to obey the design that God has created or violate it. Violating God's law will result in death, Roman 6:23. This is an intrinsic consequence of sin. This is the second death. The first death is not the wages of sin, for it is appointed to all to die, then the judgement, Hebrews 9:27. We have only seen the second death once, and that is the death of Christ. He bore our sin in His body, literally, 1 Peter 2:24. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, Romans 8:3. The second death is no arbitrary imposition of punishment. It is the natural final playing out of sin.

As for all the death in we see in the Bible, this was never God's plan. It was God meeting man where they where. If Israel had followed God's instructions, they would have never needed to fight, ever! But Israel did not follow God. They did not know or understand God. Isaiah 1:3-6 The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel does not know, my people does not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel to anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should you be stricken any more? you will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. 6 From the sole of the foot even to the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
. . . and I will answer you.

1. You believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. True or false?

2. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. True or false?

3. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

4. You have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. Please explain why you have refused to post them.

5. You have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. The SOP plainly says nature is not self-acting.

6. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by nature when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants? If so, please post texts.
Yes I do. Has anyone denied this? And why do you want me to post texts that you are fond of quoting? That seems very disingenuous of you. And what does any of this have to do with you putting God in the same light as Hitler? Obey me or else!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 08:18 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Not sure how can believe there is free will. How can there be free will is God is going to punish you for every bad thing you do. It is love me, or I will kill you! There is no free will in the scenario. Love can not be commanded. You believe that nothing happens unless Jesus says so. Thus rape is only be permission of God. The Lord's prayer asks for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, why? Because God's will is not being done on earth.

Death and destruction is caused by sin. ALL of it. God has given us freedom to think and do. God has given us also instruction on what we can not do, not because if we do God will punish us, but because if we do, it will destroy us. We can not violate God's law, and God's law is the instructions he put into each and every thing that God has made.


So God is only righteous if we see Him from your perspective eh?

If what you say is true, then why would God need to judge the world? If what ever sin causes it's own destruction then God could just sit back and let it happen, He wouldn't have to do anything in the situation. Yet a vast portion of the Sanctuary service points to a great judgment that every unfallen and redeemed creature gets to be a witness to. So there is a trial and no execution of judgment? That makes no sense.

Why would God need to have a trial at all if every unconfessed sin will spontaniously burn who ever has not confessed?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
All I can say is wow.

Kland and APL seem to think God is on the same level as fallen men or Satan, or even Hitler.

But if you cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then isn't it you who has put God on the same level as Hitler?

Suppose there was a non-biased third party. Suppose there existed someone like a martian. How would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong".
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 08:31 PM

"The professed followers of Christ are on trial before the heavenly universe" {ChS 43.5}

We are on trial in heaven right now.

What would be the purpose if God does not execute justice?

The wicked are not resurrected because sin prevents them? Or is it because Jesus did not awaken them? It is both.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
But if you cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then isn't it you who has put God on the same level as Hitler?

Suppose there was a non-biased third party. Suppose there existed someone like a martian. How would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong".


Well since there is nowhere in the Universe that God does not have a presence I am sure that even a few Martians would have an understanding of the power of God, if not only for the fact of the majesty of the heavens.

This is how I would explain it. Using the words of my Prophet.

"The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man’s Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.3}
God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam’s failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1}
Christ volunteered to maintain and vindicate the holiness of the divine law. He was not to do away the smallest part of its claims in the work of redemption for man, but, in order to save man and maintain the sacred claims and justice of His Father’s law, He gave Himself a sacrifice for the guilt of man. Christ’s life did not, in a single instance, detract from the claims of His Father’s law, but, through firm obedience to all its precepts and by dying for the sins of those who had transgressed it, He established its immutability. {Con 20.2}
After the transgression of Adam, Satan saw that the ruin was complete. The human race was brought into a deplorable condition. Man was cut off from intercourse with God. It was Satan’s design that the state of man should be the same as that of the fallen angels, in rebellion against God, uncheered by a gleam of hope. He reasoned that if God pardoned sinful man whom He had created, He would also pardon him and his angels and receive them into His favor. But he was disappointed. {Con 20.3}
The divine Son of God saw that no arm but His own could save fallen man, and He determined to help man. He left the fallen angels to perish in their rebellion, but stretched forth His hand to rescue perishing man. The angels who were rebellious were dealt with according to the light and experience they had abundantly enjoyed in heaven. Satan, the chief of the fallen angels, once had an exalted position in heaven. He was next in honor to Christ. The knowledge which he, as well as the angels who fell with him, had of the character of God, of His goodness, His mercy, wisdom, and excellent glory, made their guilt unpardonable. {Con 21.1}
There was no possible hope for the redemption of those who had witnessed and enjoyed the inexpressible glory of heaven, and had seen the terrible majesty of God, and, in presence of all this glory, had rebelled against Him. There were no new and wonderful exhibitions of God’s exalted power that could impress them so deeply as those they had already experienced. If they could rebel in the very presence of glory inexpressible, they could not be placed in a more favorable condition to be proved. There was no reserve force of power, nor were there any greater heights and depths of infinite glory to overpower their jealous doubts and rebellious murmuring. Their guilt and their punishment must be in proportion to their exalted privileges in the heavenly courts. {Con 21.2}

You think you are correct in making God impotent.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Not sure how can believe there is free will. How can there be free will is God is going to punish you for every bad thing you do. It is love me, or I will kill you! There is no free will in the scenario. Love can not be commanded. You believe that nothing happens unless Jesus says so. Thus rape is only be permission of God. The Lord's prayer asks for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, why? Because God's will is not being done on earth.

Death and destruction is caused by sin. ALL of it. God has given us freedom to think and do. God has given us also instruction on what we can not do, not because if we do God will punish us, but because if we do, it will destroy us. We can not violate God's law, and God's law is the instructions he put into each and every thing that God has made.


So God is only righteous if we see Him from your perspective eh?

If what you say is true, then why would God need to judge the world? If what ever sin causes it's own destruction then God could just sit back and let it happen, He wouldn't have to do anything in the situation. Yet a vast portion of the Sanctuary service points to a great judgment that every unfallen and redeemed creature gets to be a witness to. So there is a trial and no execution of judgment? That makes no sense.

Why would God need to have a trial at all if every unconfessed sin will spontaniously burn who ever has not confessed?


I do not believe you understand the great controversy is all about. Who ultimately is on trial? Who is the one that is accused? Romans 3:4 God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

If God had let Satan reap the natural consequences of his sin, he would have died. The universe would not have understood that this is the result of sin, and they would have worshipped God from fear. Fear that He destroys those that cross Him. As EGW says: God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Rebellion is not to be overcome by force. Perhaps YOU jsot need to put aside your preconceived ideas of God, and see God as He is.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/23/13 10:18 PM

1. You believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. True or false?

God is the restorer - Satan is the destroyer. EGW: The Saviour in His teachings ever showed the relation between cause and effect.

2. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. True or false?

Evil angels have no free will? The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} In the great controvery, Satan can claim foul for God interferring. At the end, God will withdraw all interference, and allow sin to go to completion.

3. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

See #2

4. You have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. Please explain why you have refused to post them.

As kland has said, you know the scripture references. Why repeat them over and over? God did give instructions to wayward Israel. But this in no wise proves that this was God's perfect will. You refuse to see the same situation with marriage and divorce, and with polygamy. Why?

5. You have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. The SOP plainly says nature is not self-acting.

God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. It is sin that God has restrained. See #2

6. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by nature when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

All death is caused by ultimately by sin. Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said to them, Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelled in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 12:20 AM

APL you only see what you want to and are in complete denyal of everything else that has been written.

By everything you keep saying after evidence has been shown, you directly contradict the statements from the Spirit of Prophecy, which means you are the one who is being unballanced in your views.

Earlier we were talking about the Canaanites. Look at this quote and tell me God did not destroy them.

"The inhabitants had been granted ample opportunity for repentance. Forty years before, the judgments on Egypt had testified to the power of the God of Israel. The overthrow of Midian, of Gilead and Bashan, had further shown that He was above all gods. His abhorrence of impurity had been demonstrated in the judgments on Israel for their participation in the abominable rites of Baal-peor. All these events were known to the inhabitants of Jericho. Many shared Rahab’s conviction, though they refused to obey it, that the God of Israel “is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath.” Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. Both love and justice demanded the execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. {EP 349.2}

BOTH LOVE AND JUSTICE DEMANDED THEIR EXECUTION.

The more you get into this APL the more you seem to be questioning the position of Mrs White on this subject. You sure you want to continue hardening your heart?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 12:30 AM

I also know that God is the one that Satan accused and the Father is on trial, but in the process of trying to bring contempt on the Father Satan caused the fall of man, and we were already created under probation, we were given a second probation and we are on trial right now. So there is two trials going on right now.

Remember? Satan; the accuser of the brethren. He is called this because we are being prosecuted by him.

"The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man’s Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.3}
God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam’s failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1}
... Their guilt and their punishment must be in proportion to their exalted privileges in the heavenly courts." {Con 21.2}


How do you ignore this? Ignorance.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 01:15 AM

How do you ignore all that has been written, no lack understanding how difficult words can have clarity. Do you know what justice is? Is if the infliction of punishment? Or is justice right doing? Have you studied the execution of justice in the OT? Do you know what the wrath of God actually is? To quote EGW, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". Are you ignorant of this fact jsot? HOW does the sentence against transgression get executed? Again quoting EGW, "but He [God] leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.".

God forbearance is what keeps the sentence of death from going forward. God's wrath, as defined in Romans 1, is when God's spirit is withdrawn, and the sinner is given up. This the universe did not know in the beginning of sin. This is what Jesus demonstrated to all on the cross. Look at Jesus!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 01:18 AM

APL,

Do you know what "stand toward" is?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 02:27 AM

APL you consistantly use and abuse those two texts from the Great controversy.

"but He [God] leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves".

What this is describing is the end of probation. At the end of probation the wicked turn on the righteous and assail them from every angle. They are just about to murder the chosen of God when He interveigns by destroying the wicked by lightning from heaven.

What you are quoting over and over has nothing to do with the execution of judgment.

The other quote you keep using "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" is to give us the image of seeing God with His arms open and full of love, not as an executioner.

It does not say that God does not execute justice, but that God is not to be viewed as an executioner because He has done all He can to save the wicked.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 02:50 AM

You have no way to answer this APL

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven."

"Lightning from heaven, as a token of God’s wrath, broke off the top of their tower, casting it to the ground. Thus God would show to rebellious man that He is supreme." {SR 73.2}

"These murmurings would soon have leavened the entire camp, had not the wrath of God in fire from Heaven flashed like lightning from the cloudy pillar and consumed those who were the instigators of the trouble. Yet this, instead of humbling them, seemed only to increase their murmurings. When Moses heard the people weeping in the door of their tents, and complaining throughout their families, he was greatly distressed. {ST August 12, 1880, par. 4}
Here Moses, himself, came very near distrusting the Lord.

Just like you APL.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 03:07 AM

YOU have no way to understand this jsot.

Isaiah 33:14 KJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

jsot - you have no answer for GC 36???? None? Why not?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 03:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Do you know what "stand toward" is?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I'm sure there is a greenism for it. As you have said in the past, God destroys by Active Execution. Of course the EGW quote says that God is not the executioner.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
APL you consistantly use and abuse those two texts from the Great controversy.

"but He [God] leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves".

What this is describing is the end of probation. At the end of probation the wicked turn on the righteous and assail them from every angle. They are just about to murder the chosen of God when He interveigns by destroying the wicked by lightning from heaven.

What you are quoting over and over has nothing to do with the execution of judgment.

The other quote you keep using "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" is to give us the image of seeing God with His arms open and full of love, not as an executioner.

It does not say that God does not execute justice, but that God is not to be viewed as an executioner because He has done all He can to save the wicked.



HA! What you are quoting over and over has nothing to do with the execution of judgment.

Really... What is the "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;" mean. What is the sentence against transgression? The Second Death! The Second Death is the wages of sin. This quote of EGW states, that God is not the executioner of the sentence. It goes on to explain how the sentence is carried out and what roll God plays. Sin pays its wage, death.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 03:43 AM

The wages of sin is death, and it is a self inflicted wound. But God is the rewarder.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 03:57 AM

Originally Posted By: APL


Really... What is the "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;" mean.?


In every quote that I have seen using that vernacular it is always in the context of full disclosure. God is righteous beyond anything else. He is the perfect Entity in all His encarnations. He is accused, so the evidence must be made evident, like the death of Jesus. Sin must be allowed to run it's course until when He prophesied. The whole universe will never want to sin again.

So the end of everything prophesied is coming very soon, and in the fulfillment will be the righteousness revealed to the whole world who will tear themselves to shreds or be fully submitted to the will of God.

The whole heavenly universe has seen the righteousness of God through His Son, the head of the serpent has beed bruised and like us they are just waiting for the end.

This is faith. To depend on the word of God. So when He says through His prophet...

Psalm 58;10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged,
when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Then people will say,
“Surely the righteous still are rewarded;
surely there is a God who judges the earth.”

How do you explain this?

You do not understand the love involved in the death of the wicked, in God's wrath, His strange act; but only those who dwell in the righteousness of God could see that wouldn't you think?

This is touching on an area that cuts to the marrow of the truth.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 04:23 AM

The question is not if God is Love, He is. The question is not 'does God avenge' He does. The question is "can we see God's love through His wrath?"

If we can't then we have not seen God. He reveals Himself through His word, if every part of the word does not harmonize it is because your view is off. This is the word of the Lord. How do you throw away so many texts to support your own perception? How do you not see the harmony if you are in the Spirit?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The question is not if God is Love, He is. The question is not 'does God avenge' He does. The question is "can we see God's love through His wrath?"

If we can't then we have not seen God. He reveals Himself through His word, if every part of the word does not harmonize it is because your view is off. This is the word of the Lord. How do you throw away so many texts to support your own perception? How do you not see the harmony if you are in the Spirit?


How do you throw out all the text that do not harmonize with your preconceived ideas? I find harmony in scripture. EGW says, "God destroys no man." Green says He does. GC 36 says God is not an executioner. The Death of Christ answers the question of how God is involved in the death of sinners. What did Christ say? "My God, my God, why are you torturing me?" "My God, my God, why are you killing me?" "My God, my God, why are you burning me?". No. He said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus is the answer.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:04 PM

Jesus suffered the wrath of God like every unrepentant sinner in the second death correct? So what is the wrath of God, also called the indignation of God.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {CET 108.2}

The wrath of God will only be appeased by the second death, the eternal death of sinners, but that does not mean the second death is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is hatred against sin. Can God hate? Yes He can.

"The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man’s Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.3}
God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. {Con 20.1}

This next quote tells us what and how the wrath of God was felt by Jesus.

"Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father’s mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father’s reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.... {CSA 39.1}
He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.... {CSA 39.2}

For Jesus to carry the sin of the world brought the wrath of the Father on Jesus and seperated them. It was the anguish, agony and sorrow of GUILT that could not be taken away and broke His heart.

The wicked sweat blood just like Jesus at the second resurrection when their GUILT is exposed. They do not have the love of Christ in them. They receive the wrath unmixed with mercy.

This next quote tells us how the wrath of the Father is executed against unrepentant sinners...

"Dear children, live for God—live for heaven, so that when the wrath of God shall come upon the earth, Jesus may say to the destroying angel, Spare those... {AY 58.2}

“It was about the space of three hours after, when his wife (Saphira), not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much (no repentance or acknowledging of her guilt). Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out... Infinite Wisdom saw that this signal manifestation of the wrath of God was necessary to guard the young church from becoming demoralized. {AA 73.4}

Did Saphira die from God withdrawing His presence? Or was it God's Destroying angel?

"All around him the apostle beheld witnesses to the Flood that had deluged the earth because the inhabitants ventured to transgress the law of God. The rocks thrown up from the great deep and from the earth by the breaking forth of the waters, brought vividly to his mind the terrors of that awful outpouring of God’s wrath. In the voice of many waters—deep calling unto deep—the prophet heard the voice of the Creator. The sea, lashed to fury by the merciless winds, represented to him the wrath of an offended God.

"With unerring accuracy, the Infinite One still keeps an account with all nations. While His mercy is tendered, with calls to repentance, this account will remain open; but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed. Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf.... {CET 186.2}
The crisis is fast approaching. The time for God’s visitation has about come. Although loth to punish, nevertheless He will punish, and that speedily. James 5:16. {CET 186.3}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:06 PM

APL, here is the answer to the quotes you keep using, how they fit together with all these other quotes that contradict your stance.

"Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God, or be cut down by the destroying weapons. Already a few drops of God’s wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

God does not stand towards sinners as their executioner because He has proven how we are to blame for our own actions.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:09 PM

The end of all things is at hand. God will not much longer bear with the crimes and debasing iniquity of the children of men. Their sins have reached unto heaven, and will soon be answered by the fearful plagues of God upon the earth. They will drink the cup of his wrath, unmixed with mercy. {CTBH 155.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:12 PM

"By his power he had controlled cities and nations until their sin provoked the wrath of God to destroy them by fire, water, earthquakes, sword, famine, and pestilence. " {Con 34.2}

In the first death there are many ways the WRATH of God is appeased, but they always end in the death of the wicked.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:18 PM

At the second coming the same effect of the wrath of God is felt that will overwhelm the wicked in the second death.

"Riches, power, genius, eloquence, pride, perverted reason, and passion are enlisted as Satan’s agents in doing his work in making the broad road attractive, strewing it with tempting flowers. But every word they have spoken against the world’s Redeemer will be reflected back upon them, and will one day burn into their guilty souls like molten lead. They will be overwhelmed with terror and shame as they behold the exalted One coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Then shall the bold defier, who lifted himself up against the Son of God, see himself in the true blackness of his character. The sight of the inexpressible glory of the Son of God will be intensely painful to those whose characters are stained with sin. The pure light and glory emanating from Christ will awaken remorse, shame, and terror. They will send forth wails of anguish to the rocks and mountains, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” {Con 87.1}

So with Jesus coming in the clouds of glory the wicked behold the wrath of the Lamb through seeing the blackness of their souls in comparison. The perfect extension of the Wrath of God.

This is the wrath of God. Seeing the shame that our sins brought upon the earth and feeling the effects of God's anger towards our sins. The death that comes is after the wrath has expunged itself of the anger and hatred God has against sin.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:31 PM

Here's another point.

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.” {EW 294.1}

If death is swollowed up by the second death then who is doing the tormenting of the wicked here? Is it Satan or God?

You really need to be careful how you answer this APL, you are being judged right now.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Do you know what "stand toward" is?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I'm sure there is a greenism for it. As you have said in the past, God destroys by Active Execution. Of course the EGW quote says that God is not the executioner.
Oh, oh! I know! I know!

It's not that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that God personally executes the sinner for transgressing!

How's that for one!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland
But if you cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then isn't it you who has put God on the same level as Hitler?

Suppose there was a non-biased third party. Suppose there existed someone like a martian. How would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong".


This is how I would explain it. Using the words of my Prophet.
Yes, and how would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong"?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 07:41 PM

Was Hitler using righteousness to accomplish his goal?

The fact that you persist in writing such a question down shows contempt.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 10:50 PM

[quote=jsot]You really need to be careful how you answer this APL, you are being judged right now. [quote]
Are we to be afraid of God? Is that what you are saying? Are you trying to scare me to love God? Can love even be commanded? Nope. God is not the one out seeking who He can devour. That is satan. Sin is the problem, not God. Sin will destroy the sinner, not God. We need to be convicted of danger of sin, not the danger of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/24/13 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland
But if you cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then isn't it you who has put God on the same level as Hitler?

Suppose there was a non-biased third party. Suppose there existed someone like a martian. How would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong".


This is how I would explain it. Using the words of my Prophet.
Yes, and how would you explain to him that what God does is "right" but when Hitler or satan does the exact same thing, it is "wrong"?

That is the deception. Does God do the same thing as Hitler? Nope. Oh yes, sinners die, but not by execution by God. That to say he does and call it righteous is dark deception.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 02:47 AM

Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 03:03 AM

What is the modern day 'mark of cain'?

"God, in His Word, has placed His stamp [of condemnation] upon the heresies of spiritualism as He placed His mark upon Cain. The godly need not be deceived if they are students of the Scriptures and obedient to follow the plain path marked out for them in the Word of God. {Con 90.1}

"God has given to every man his work; and if any one turns from the work that God has given him, to do the work of Satan, to defile his own body or lead another into sin, that man’s work is cursed, and the brand of Cain is placed upon him. The ruin of his victim will cry unto God, as did the blood of Abel (The Review and Herald, March 6, 1894). {1BC 1087.2}
Any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan, to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe he bears the mark of Cain (Manuscript 29, 1911). {1BC 1087.3}

"God is everywhere. He sees, he knows all things, and understands the intents and purposes of the heart. It is in vain that an attempt should be made to conceal sin from his notice. He saw our first parents in Eden. He saw Cain when he raised his hand to kill Abel. He saw the sins of the inhabitants of the old world, and numbered their days and punished them with a flood. He saw the sins of his own covenant people, the Jews, when they plotted against the life of the Son of God. As surely does he mark every transgression, and every secret thing will be brought into Judgment. They may be hid from mortal man, they may be hid from the good, the pure, and the holy, from friends and from foes, yet God sees them. All sins will be revealed in the day of Judgment, and unless they have been repented of beforehand, they will receive punishment according to their magnitude: for a record of all the deeds of men is kept in the book of God’s remembrance. All the good actions, all the evil actions of life are recorded. The fact that the accumulated sins are treasured up and at last exposed, is a terrible fact. And why those professing to be sons and daughters of God venture in the face of light, in the face of knowledge, to sin against their own conscience and by their sin involve others in the same ruin, is a mystery. Have they ever tasted of the powers of the world to come? Have they ever enjoyed sweet communion with God? Then how can they turn to sensual, condemning, soul-degrading practices? {RH May 24, 1887, par. 6}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 03:06 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.

God does not kill anyone. The natural result of sin is death. This is part of the great controversy which you jsot do not understand. You are not alone. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

God is not like Hitler, because does not kill. Sin kills. The universe now knows this, they have seen Christ die the sinner's death. The world needs to know this. This is the theme of the 3 angels.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 04:04 AM

If you are so knowledgable on God then tell me what this means?

"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies—“fire and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word.” Psalm 148:8. We are told of a greater battle to take place in the closing scenes of earth’s history, when “the Lord hath opened His armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of His indignation.” Jeremiah 50:25. {EP 362.2}
The revelator describes the destruction that is to take place when the “great voice out of the temple of heaven” announces, “It is done.” He says, “There fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent.” Revelation 16:17, 21. {EP 362.3}

Oh but God doesn't do this does he? He doesn't aim those missiles, they just fall out of the sky at random right? If you could see the perfection of the Glory of God you would not argue against statements like this...

"With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast, the sign of allegiance to the power he chooses to obey instead of God. “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10. {HF 368.2}
Not one suffers the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience and has been rejected. Many have never had opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. He who reads every heart will leave none who desire the truth to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {HF 368.3}

The words "wrath of God" appear seven times in Revelation, yet you want to make these statements a lie.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Oh but Jesus would never do that, shame on the bible for saying so, right APL?

When does the word 'wrath' not mean wrath? When APL and the movement he is connected to says so.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
If you are so knowledgable on God then tell me what this means?

"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies—“fire and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word.” Psalm 148:8. We are told of a greater battle to take place in the closing scenes of earth’s history, when “the Lord hath opened His armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of His indignation.” Jeremiah 50:25. {EP 362.2}
The revelator describes the destruction that is to take place when the “great voice out of the temple of heaven” announces, “It is done.” He says, “There fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent.” Revelation 16:17, 21. {EP 362.3}

Oh but God doesn't do this does he? He doesn't aim those missiles, they just fall out of the sky at random right? If you could see the perfection of the Glory of God you would not argue against statements like this...

"With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast, the sign of allegiance to the power he chooses to obey instead of God. “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10. {HF 368.2}
Not one suffers the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience and has been rejected. Many have never had opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. He who reads every heart will leave none who desire the truth to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {HF 368.3}

The words "wrath of God" appear seven times in Revelation, yet you want to make these statements a lie.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Oh but Jesus would never do that, shame on the bible for saying so, right APL?

When does the word 'wrath' not mean wrath? When APL and the movement he is connected to says so.


jsot - - pay attention!!!

Numbers 21:5-7 And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loathes this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Deuteronomy 8:15 Who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint;

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 06:41 AM

Yes APL, and that same book ends with these statements.

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11, 12. {GC 666.1}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. (This is when they begin to sweat blood and gnash teeth) They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart—all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes—the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world’s Redeemer yielded up His life. {GC 667.1}
The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. Herod, who slew the innocent children of Bethlehem that he might destroy the King of Israel; the base Herodias, upon whose guilty soul rests the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, timeserving Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the priests and rulers and the maddened throng who cried, “His blood be on us, and on our children!”—all behold the enormity of their guilt. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour’s feet, exclaiming: “He died for me!” {GC 667.2}

(This is when God and Magog start to feel the wrath of God. They see every sin they committed just like Jesus did for everyone in Gethsemane. Continuing;)

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}
It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. “All this,” cries the lost soul, “I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair.” All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: “We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us.” {GC 668.3}
As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, “Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints” (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life. {GC 668.4}
Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, “son of the morning;” how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. {GC 669.1}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God’s justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}
Saith the Lord: “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.” “I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}
“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

You do not acknowledge the full word of God on this subject APL.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/25/13 09:17 AM

Originally Posted By: jsot
You do not acknowledge the full word of God on this subject APL.
You ignore the keys. Yes, the wicked are destroyed. Yes, the wicked die. But you do not understand God's justice. His ways are not our ways. You said I could not explain the Lord's Armory. You were wrong. You ignore how it is that God uses his armory. Why? Because you think God operates like you do. You should see God "As He Is". Jesus is the key. Look at Jesus. Perhaps you too will overcome the "son of thunder" as His disciples did.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 12:10 AM

So you make the accusation that I don't know how God uses His armory yet you do not provide your reasoning behind that statement, that is a very flawed approach.

God cleanses the earth with the same righteous fire that went out in your heart.

His righteousness ignites the fallen world. His angels execute His justice as if it was by the hand of God himself.

The angels are the direct emisaries of the Father in the name of the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit.

When the angel of death executes the judgment of the Father it is the Father doing the execution. Just because it is by the hand of an angel, or fire from the presence of God does not mean it was not God who did it.

You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: jsot
You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity [sic].
To you, execution of justice is God killing those that choose not to follow Him, "love me, or I will kill you". Justice does not have to have God killing sinners. Justice can be God letting sinners have what they have chosen and the natural results of the same.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
You make it sound like God has created a barier between Himself and the execution of His justice so He can claim denyabillity [sic].
To you, execution of justice is God killing those that choose not to follow Him, "love me, or I will kill you". Justice does not have to have God killing sinners. Justice can be God letting sinners have what they have chosen and the natural results of the same.


Now you condescend to tell me what I believe? You obviously have a hard enough time dealing with understanding your own beliefs, please don't strain yourself by trying to claim you understand what I believe too.

If God be God, worship Him...

You would probably argue with Mrs White about some of her writings.

Here is the beginning of wisdom, the fear of the Lord. Would you say this is evil?

Do you know what the fear of the Lord is? Do you know what His strange act is?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 12:49 PM

"In the fields where the boy David had led his flock, shepherds were still keeping watch by night. Through the silent hours they talked together of the promised Saviour, and prayed for the coming of the King to David’s throne. “And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” {DA 47.3}

Why is it that every time the angel of the Lord appears men fall to the ground in terror?

You do not know the glory of the Lord.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
"In the fields where the boy David had led his flock, shepherds were still keeping watch by night. Through the silent hours they talked together of the promised Saviour, and prayed for the coming of the King to David’s throne. “And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” {DA 47.3}

Why is it that every time the angel of the Lord appears men fall to the ground in terror?

You do not know the glory of the Lord.


Ah, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Was Hitler using righteousness to accomplish his goal?

The fact that you persist in writing such a question down shows contempt.
Contempt? Who, you?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.
First you say God does not do the same thing as Hitler, and then immediately you swap it with "motivations". Which by so doing, you do indeed say that God does do the exact same thing as Hitler, just you justify it as "righteousness", 'because it's for a good purpose'. Just like Hitler. Ask Hitler if he was using righteousness. Ask those who believed in him if he was using righteousness.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/27/13 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
1. You believe every act of punishment fits the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. True or false?

God is the restorer - Satan is the destroyer. EGW: The Saviour in His teachings ever showed the relation between cause and effect.

2. Evil angels are not free to wreak havoc as they please. They must have Jesus' permission to tempt or to destroy. Their hands are tied until Jesus unties them. True or false?

Evil angels have no free will? The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} In the great controvery, Satan can claim foul for God interferring. At the end, God will withdraw all interference, and allow sin to go to completion.

3. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by evil angels when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

See #2

4. You have refused to post inspired passages you believe depict Jesus commanding His chosen people to wage war, to kill His enemies with the edge of the sword. Please explain why you have refused to post them.

As kland has said, you know the scripture references. Why repeat them over and over? God did give instructions to wayward Israel. But this in no wise proves that this was God's perfect will. You refuse to see the same situation with marriage and divorce, and with polygamy. Why?

5. You have not explained why you believe nature is self-acting, why you believe all Jesus need do is withdraw His restraining hand and the forces of nature will act in and of itself to cause the death and destruction Jesus is willing to permit. The SOP plainly says nature is not self-acting.

God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. It is sin that God has restrained. See #2

6. Do you believe the death and destruction wrought by nature when Jesus permits represents the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning?

All death is caused by ultimately by sin. Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said to them, Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelled in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

I cannot discern how your responses answer my questions.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:01 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Was Hitler using righteousness to accomplish his goal?

The fact that you persist in writing such a question down shows contempt.
Contempt? Who, you?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.
First you say God does not do the same thing as Hitler, and then immediately you swap it with "motivations". Which by so doing, you do indeed say that God does do the exact same thing as Hitler, just you justify it as "righteousness", 'because it's for a good purpose'. Just like Hitler. Ask Hitler if he was using righteousness. Ask those who believed in him if he was using righteousness.


This is what I'm talking about. You and APL both are confusing the issue.

"have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?Matthew 12:5... in doing his work on the Sabbath day, is he committing a sin?

You do not know the difference between sacred or Holy things and what is common or earthly things.

You both put God on the same order as Hitler and accuse me of doing the deed?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:10 AM

Is a judge held accountable for the execution of justice?

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

There is a difference between the judgment of men and of God

Psalm 58:1 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Lord.

7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth
.

But you know better than David don't you? Brood of vipers, you do not know the righteousness of God.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:18 AM

Psalm 96:9 O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.

12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice

13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth
.

Did the inanimate objects of nature rejoice over the judgment of Hitler?

Hypocrites.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:21 AM

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Oh, and by the way this is unfulfilled New Testament prophecy.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:32 AM

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. (how mean those angels were for taking away the eyesight of those men who wanted to sodomize the angels!)

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.


Are you calling Jesus a murderer for destroying Sodom?

Is the righteous judge of the world who destroyed Sodom by sending angels to destroy it a murderer?

You who say that He is a murderer for destroying wicked men, you do not know the righteousness of God. PERIOD!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:47 AM

Here's a question for you guys. If God does not take a personal role in the destruction of the wicked, then why did He command that a sacrifice be slain? Why would God command men to KILL animals?

Did the high priest represent Jesus? But those men would murder sacrifices every day?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 01:49 AM

The fire from heaven that consumed the sacrifices was it not Holy?

Why would a righteous God use the image of a corpse being consumed by flames of fire if it does not have a righteous purpose?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 02:00 AM

1 Thess 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
;
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 02:02 AM

So the wicked are punished just by being in the presence of the glory of His power.

It is a horror for the wicked to be in His presence, but does He know this? Does He willingly reveal himself for such a purpose? Of course He does, that is the recompense.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 05:02 AM

In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3, 4. {DA 58.1}

Who is on trial? What is the main focus of the Great Controversy? GOD and His character.

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}



God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

That is the picture you project jsot. YOU may not think so, but in your words, this is how you project God, a severe, exacting creditor, with stern justice. Look at Christ, Behold Your God!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 05:46 AM

How can you do that without your conscience being seared?

Your own quote condemns what you advocate. Didn't you understand this part of your quote... "It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin".

In OTHER WORDS, God's many decrees to destroy wickedness and eveyrone who refuses to repent does not make Him a murderer. Get it?

In fact the very argument that you are making is the whole argument Satan brought against God. He took the truth of the destruction of the wicked and made God out to be a tyrant by twisting facts just like you are doing.

Satan did the same thing to Abraham.

"Satan was at hand to suggest that he must be deceived, for the divine law commands, “Thou shalt not kill.” God would not require what He had forbidden." {EP 92.1}

"The Day of Final Judgment" is at the second reurrection, and like your quote states that is when "every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth". God is not responsible for their outcome.

The point that you don't get is this, what you quoted is still exactly correct with the fact that God still commands the execution of the wicked.

There is a perfect picture that you do not see.

What you quoted does NOT contradict this...

"The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world...." {7BC 946.8}
"Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava [Nahum 1:5, 6; Psalm 144:5, 6 quoted] (Manuscript 21, 1902). {7BC 946.10}
"God... caused His judgments to come upon them, and consumed the most guilty by lightning from heaven." {CD 376.1}

There is a perfect ballance of these two issues that you are missing, but claiming that I am guilty of making God to be a monster. That is very cunning of you, and it is an argument like Lucifer's that the angels couldn't argue against because no matter how hard I or anyone else trys to convict you of your error you will NEVER conceed.

Here is the final word on the truth that you advocate...

"When the professed people of God are uniting with the world, living as they live, and joining with them in forbidden pleasures; when the luxury of the world becomes the luxury of the church; when the marriage bells are chiming, and all are looking forward to many years of worldly prosperity—then, suddenly as the lightning flashes from the heavens, will come the end of their bright visions and delusive hopes. {GC 338.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 06:18 AM

A house divided cannot stand.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 09:17 AM

God used poisonous snakes in His wrath to punish the people in the wilderness.

jsot - you really need to understand the great controversy. Read again, PP chapter 1,2 and 3. Read again GC chapter 29. Read again Steps to Christ, the whole thing. The history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 11:53 AM

The problem with this topic is that it polarizes extremes.

Of course APL brings out quotes of God's awesome love and grace -- salvation, restoration -- all wonderful truths, but he does this in a way to negate God's justice.

Somehow APL links any thought of justice to Hitler-- strange connection as Hitler was not executing justice at all. Justice needed to be executed to STOP him.

Rather think of the 18 year old girl that was gang raped and abused by three men, wrapped in a sheet tossed in a ditch and set on fire. The girl was hospitalized, doctors tried to save her life by amputating both legs and an arm, she tells her story, and dies. The men who did the deed were released on "lack of evidence" -- free to destroy other young women.
NO JUSTICE! Is that love?

Yes, God wants to restore and save everyone possible -- He has poured out all heaven for our salvation. Without His matchless love and grace, we would have no life, no hope. He longs to restore and cleanse each one and fit them for a better world.
But God hates sin -- and though He must allow it to demonstrate its terrible, degrading, effects, and give it time to reveal its full terrible nature, there will come a time when He will stop it.

It must be absolutely painful and heartbreaking for a God of love and righteousness to see all the inhumanity and terrible things going on in our world -- how He must long to stop it all, and bring His redeemed into the glorious kingdom of peace and love. And He will stop it!

"Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." Rev. 16:7

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 06:56 PM

Yes, the idea that sin punishes sinners when Jesus permits it robs Jesus of His kingship. It assumes suffering and first death is the punishment for sinning. It clearly is not. Jesus does not punish sinners for their sins until after He resurrects them, judges them, and then casts them alive in a lake of fire.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 08:27 PM

A dictator tortures, burns and kills, it is a crime. A "righteous" government takes those dictators and tortures, burns and kills them for their crime and it is justice. Interesting.

What is the sentence for transgression of the law? The second death, right? You do agree, right? EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but leaves the rejectors of His mercy to receive the natural consequence of their transgression. It is not an imposed penalty. Sin is a heinous thing because it destroys what God has made. This is a main point of the great controversy! If Satan had received the consequence of his sin in the beginning, it would not have been apparent to the on looking universe that this was the natural consequence of sin. They would have interpreted it as God executing the sinners, and they would have served God from fear, not from love.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/28/13 10:49 PM

Justice (the very definition of the word) demands that everyone fair and square receives what they deserve.

Justice demands that we all deserve death for we've all been rebels -- destroyers of ourselves, destroyers of others God given rights, and destroying the creation and laws of God.

The ONLY reason we can escape our just sentence is because Christ suffered the sentence that we deserve.
You (ALP) don't believe this -- but its the foundational truth of salvation.
Christ suffered what we deserve so that all who believe in Him and live in Him will not suffer what they deserve, but they receive what Christ (the spotless Lamb of God) deserves.

Those who reject this gift of salvation will suffer what they deserve.

Sin is allowed to show its true nature -- it is not sustainable -- it results in everything evil, and God is just to end it. The total injustice of sin had to be demonstrated for universe to see the justice of God in ending it.

Yes, sin is destructive, if God did not hold back its destructive, evil force, the world would have destroyed itself long ago. It is the mercy of God that we enjoy life at all on this planet.
But God isn't going to let sin win and destroy everything. The earth isn't going to just peter out in ashes on its own. God will stop the evil BEFORE that happens, and all, both redeemed and lost, will see they are simply getting what they deserve.

The righteous will be praising Christ for taking what they deserved upon Himself and healing their backsliding and imputing to them His merits.

The lost will fully understand they are just getting what they deserve, eternal death.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 02:17 AM

The Lord said to the holy pair, “In the day that ye eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, ye shall surely die.” [See Genesis 3.] Eve was beguiled by the serpent, and made to believe that God would not do as he had said... The serpent had said that she should not die, and she felt no ill effects from eating the fruit,—nothing which could be interpreted to mean death, but, instead, a pleasurable sensation, which she imagined was as the angels felt. Her experience stood arrayed against the positive command of Jehovah, yet Adam permitted himself to be seduced by it. {CTBH 42.2}
Thus we often find it, even in the religious world. God’s express commands are transgressed; and “because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do the evil.” [Ecclesiastes 8:11.]... false experience arrays itself against the laws of life and the precepts of Jehovah. {CTBH 42.3}

God would have destroyed Adam and Eve the day they ate of the forbidden fruit by revealing His glory and they would have been tortured and consumed in His glory but they repented and accepted the sacrifice.

"could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.... {DD 16.5}

The revealing of the glory of the Father is a consuming fire to the wicked. The revealing of the guilt of the sinner is torture. It is not God's will that people be tortured, but He has hidden His glory for us so we could be prepared for His presence. If we have slighted the responsibillity that is our fault not God's.

Let us in imagination go back to the wilderness tabernacle, and see if we can discern the glorious gospel of Christ shining from the Jewish economy. A man enters the outer court with a lamb, which he brings to the door of the tabernacle. With solemn awe, and eyes raised to heaven, he lays his hand upon its head, while his moving lips, like Hannah’s of old, betray the burden of his heart. Then he lifts the knife, and takes the life of the sacrifice. His faith lays hold of the bleeding Lamb of Calvary, and his sin rolls from off his burdened heart onto the great Sacrifice. The blood is carefully caught; every drop is precious, for by faith he views the real sacrifice. The priest meets him, takes the blood of the sacrificed life, and passes from sight within the first veil, while the worshiper awaits with anxiety his return. {SDP 139.2}

While man lived near God, the altars were lighted by fire from heaven (God's glory consumed the sacrifice). But this perfect worship was marred. Cain’s mind became so blinded by sin that he failed to grasp the infinite sacrifice. Satan convinced him that God was an austere judge, demanding service. The love and sacrifice of the Saviour were overlooked. Cain and Abel each brought an offering to the gate of the garden; but the desire of the two hearts was greatly different. Abel brought a lamb, and as he took its life, his faith laid hold of the Lamb of God. The lamb was laid upon the altar, and fire flashed from the shining sword of the cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life, and the sacrifice was consumed. {SDP 136.2}

So if the glory of God was what consumed SACRIFICES then it is His presence that consumes the wicked.

The revealing of the Glory of the Father is Hell to the wicked.
Not as you say APL that they are left to Satan and his angels and consumed by their own sins. Their sins are what make them unfit to stand before God.

It is a very subtle twist that makes what you are teaching from Satan.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 02:22 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Justice (the very definition of the word) demands that everyone fair and square receives what they deserve.


dedication - is your definition the Biblical definition of the word or the dictionary definition? Many times I've heard, "It’s true that God is love, but don’t forget, God is also just." Consider the phrase, "God's Justice". If you had to substitute the word “justice” for some other word, what would you choose? Punishment? If we rely on our modern day understanding of justice which causes us to view any reference to justice predominantly in legal terms: Quid-pro-quo payback justice, retributive justice, legal justice, and justice that primarily involves a punishment that fits the crime.

What is the Biblical definition of justice? That is what we need to know.

“Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.” (Psalm 82:3) The Psalmist is obviously not suggesting that the afflicted and the needy should be punished in this verse? Rather, his command is that we should help them: justice in this verse refers to the actions of mercy and love.

Isaiah 1:16-17 Wash yourselves clean. Stop all this evil that I see you doing. Yes, stop doing evil 17 and learn to do right. See that justice is done---help those who are oppressed, give orphans their rights, and defend widows."

Once again, the justice involved here is to do good to the outcasts of society by correcting what has been done to them.
Notice a theme all the way through – that God is not the one acting by methods of violence when he administers justice. Rather, God’s justice is to compassionately intervene against the violent actions done by others.

Jeremiah 21:12 This is what the LORD says to the dynasty of David: "'Give justice each morning to the people you judge! Help those who have been robbed; rescue them from their oppressors. Otherwise, My anger will burn like an unquenchable fire because of all your sins.

God’s justice, in example after example, is ultimately to do what is right and to make things right by pouring out loving compassion to those who have been treated unfairly

Isaiah 30:18 The LORD is waiting to be kind to you. He rises to have compassion on you. The LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him.

What is God’s justice in this verse? It is to be kind to his children and to have compassion on them.

Ezekiel 45:9 NLT "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Enough, you princes of Israel! Stop your violence and oppression and do what is just and right. Quit robbing and cheating My people out of their land. Stop expelling them from their homes, says the Sovereign LORD.

Ezekiel 45:9 NKJV 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Enough, O princes of Israel! Remove violence and plundering, execute justice and righteousness, and stop dispossessing My people," says the Lord GOD.

Once again, God’s justice here is to make things right by stopping the violence, not by executing violence on others. The injustice is to rob, cheat, and mistreat people. “Justice” then is to begin treating people in the right way – to treat people the way God would treat people. The Old Testament concept of “justice” is manifested in positive acts of mercy and compassion to the mistreated and the outcasts of society who have been denied real justice. To “bring justice“ in the Old Testament does not mean to bring punishment, but to bring healing and reconciliation.   Justice means to make things right by correcting injustice. Justice then is ultimately an expression of mercy. It is mercy in action.

This mercy in action is described in Proverbs as a path that we are to follow. It is a way of life.   “I walk the way of righteousness; I follow the paths of justice.” (Proverbs 8:20)   In verse we see Hebrew poetry, which is not based on rhyme but on repetition – where the second line of the verse adds meaning and depth to the first line. The path of justice then is the way of righteousness. It is the path of right doing. It is the path of mercy.

Proverbs 2:8-9 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints. 9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice, Equity and every good path.

Micah 6:6-8 With which shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

What about punishment? We often associate God’s justice with God’s punishment.  Is there no dimension of punishment to God’s justice?   How does God punish? Does sin need to be punished? I believe that this question is ultimately answered at the Cross.

Sin carries its own punishment. God does not need to add on additional painful penalties – sin does that just fine on its own. Listen to the very clear words in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 2:17-19 You have brought this on yourself by abandoning the LORD your God when he led you on his way. 18 You won't gain anything by going to Egypt to drink water from the Nile River. You won't gain anything by going to Assyria to drink water from the Euphrates River. 19 Your own wickedness will correct you, and your unfaithful ways will punish you. You should know and see how evil and bitter it is for you if you abandon the LORD your God and do not fear me," declares the Almighty LORD of Armies.

Jeremiah 4:18 "You brought this on yourself. This is your punishment. It is bitter. It breaks your heart."

As my friend says: God is like a physician and we are his sick patients who are infected with sin and selfishness. Let’s say that you see a physician for a cough and fever. After examining you and running some tests, including maybe a chest x-ray, suppose that the doctor ends up diagnosing you with pneumonia. You are informed that antibiotics are necessary to cure this condition, but suppose you get home and refuse to take them. Does the doctor need to sneak into your home at night to worsen your pneumonia (because he is angry with you) or does the pneumonia do its own punishing?   If you refuse to brush your teeth, do dentists get angry and insert additional cavities into your teeth? If you step off a cliff, does God need to set in motion the process of gravity so that you fall and hurt yourself?   Sin carries its own punishment and the Biblical concept of God justice has nothing to do with adding on additional pain to settle the score.

Zechariah 7:9 "This is what the LORD of Armies says: Administer real justice, and be compassionate and kind to each other.

Did Jesus in the NT change God's definition of Justice? Nope! One Greek word is translated either righteousness or justice. Jesus’ repeated rebuke to the Pharisees was that (even though they were religious outwardly) they were not merciful and kind to the outcasts of society. Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

In the story of the woman caught in adultery, who was “unjust” in that story? Was it not the selfrighteous religious leaders who brought her only as a trap for Jesus? The injustice was to hypocritically sit as judge and moral authority and to wish for this poor woman to be stoned to death. Jesus administered Godly justice, not only for the woman, but her accusers! God knew their faults, but did not broadcast them. Forgive 70 times 7. Show compassion and love to all. That is the kind of justice that Jesus came to bring as described (prophetically) in the book of Isaiah.

Matthew 12:18-20 "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, whom I love, and in whom I delight. I will put my Spirit on him, and he will announce justice to the nations. 19 He will not quarrel or shout, and no one will hear his voice in the streets. 20 He will not break off a damaged cattail. He will not even put out a smoking wick until he has made justice [loving restoration] victorious.

Acts 8:32-33 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

At the Cross, we see no violence, no punishment coming directly from the hand of God. Who was it that exhibited violence at the Cross? What we see at the Cross is humanity, represented by a mob of religious yet violent murderers who tortured to death the Son of God. Who deserved to be punished at the Cross? By our understanding of justice, would not the innocent Jesus have been justified to call down fire from heaven on the guilty people who brought him to a sham trial and then cruelly mocked him?

Instead, what we see at the Cross is the innocent Son of God, saying to guilty humanity: “Father, forgive them.” This returning of love and kindness in the face of our hatred is the radical restorative justice of God.   At the Cross, our desire for punishment, our violence, and our hatred, is replaced by God’s forgiveness, God’s non-violence, and God’s love.

Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Again, a single Greek word that can be either translated as justice or righteousness. Check out older versions of the Bible on this text going all the way back to the Wycliffe Bible, do you know that the robe of righteousness is also translated as the robe of justice! If we take the Bible as a whole, to have a robe of justice is a beautiful thing. When God’s people wear a rob of justice, the sick and outcasts of society will be cared for, the oppressed will find words of comfort and encouragement, and the good news will go throughout the world, not so much by words preached from a pulpit, but through Christ-like actions...

(excerpts from Brad Cole)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 05:36 AM



I figured you'd pretend that I said WE are to give people what they deserve and seek revenge! Or that "justice" is only punishment. But that is NOT what I wrote.

I figured you'd totally ignore the part that Christ took upon Himself what we deserve because -- yes, we've all fallen far short and all deserve death.

He took upon Himself what we deserve, so all who believe on Him may have His merits, be cleansed, and partake of what HE deserved.

Since God has provided this marvellous gift whereby we can be saved -- therefore yes we too should seek to offer hope and help to all for whom Christ died. For Christ took upon Himself what they deserve as well -- we have nothing over them, except that we know where salvation is!

Christ TOOK UPON HIMSELF WHAT WE DESERVE -- that is love, and since He loved us so much to do that we are to extend that love and care to others.
Just like the parable of the ungrateful servant -- we are forgiven much, and need to treat others as Christ treats us!

But the other is also true--
Those who refuse God's gracious gift in Christ, who refuse to accept Christ Who took upon Himself what they deserve, and who refuse to be cleansed and molded into His image -- who refuse to defend the poor, and help the needy, who do all the things that you condemn above --
Yes, they will receive what they deserve. Justice will be executed in righteousness.
They refused Christ's provision and chose to experience what they deserve themselves.

Justice demands fairness -- total fairness, everyone receives what they deserve. And all who accept Christ and His cleansing power, receive what HE, the perfect Son of Man, deserves, because He took upon Himself what we deserve.
Justice in righteousness is totally and completely fair to everyone, making full and powerful provision for salvation that none need perish.

It's not our place to go after vengeance, for we do not know the heart or the person's future decisions. But God does -- that's why He says leave the justice part to Him.

Quote:
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.



Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 06:20 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Who deserved to be punished at the Cross? By our understanding of justice, would not the innocent Jesus have been justified to call down fire from heaven on the guilty people who brought him to a sham trial and then cruelly mocked him?

If Christ would have executed justice upon the mob at the cross He would have completely ruined the plan of salvation.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins,

Jesus took OUR SINS upon Himself, that is -- He took our guilt, He took the guilt of the whole world! He was suffering what we deserve. For Him to demand they respect His innocence would have been to deny that He was carrying our sin.

But when He returns in glory, He returns without sin, and what will those murderers in that mob see? Some, like the centurion, who believed and accepted Christ will see their Savior coming! Some in that mob will be among the saved, for they later accepted Christ. But the rest--

Yes, they will be resurrected to see Jesus coming -- but it will be a terrifying time for them.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

They will be wailing in terror! And crying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

They die THREE times!
1. The first death, 2. They are raised and die again at the second coming. 3. They are raised and die again after the millennium.


Quote:
"those that mocked and derided Christ's dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient. {DD 47.1}


Jesus warned them in that mock trial: "Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Matt. 26:64

Quote:
"When Christ comes the second time, not as a prisoner surrounded by a rabble will they see Him. They will see Him as heaven's King. . . . Then the priests and rulers will remember distinctly the scene in the judgment hall. Every circumstance will appear before them as if written in letters of fire. {Mar 282.8}

"At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. GC 657


Then a thousand years later at the great white throne judgment depicted in Revelation 20.

Quote:
"Above the throne is revealed the cross; like a panoramic view... the awful, mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the crushing weight of the sins of the whole world; His betrayal into the hands of the murderous mob;..the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; ...The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 06:42 AM

Indeed, save us from the wrath of the LAMB.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 07:53 AM

Before I had the general lesson study in our church this morning I took the time to read the first chapter again in Steps to Christ. It is a sad story you find there how Satan succeeds in deluting the minds of some of the saintliest saints and blinds their vision of God as seen throught the mediatorial service of our Real High Priest.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 08:08 AM

It might not do some of you much harm if you'd review the current Sabbathschool study guides on the Sanctuary service. This is quite basic to understanding the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

It is also essential to understand the nature of God and how he works.

Is there really any reason to remain babes in understanding Scripture?
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 08:14 AM

Is there any reason why the last prayer of a hopeless sinner will not be heard?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 06:41 PM

I did study the Sabbath School Lessons this past quarter, and indeed God has done everything possible to win, forgive, restore, and cleanse every person.
Yes, Christ takes our sins upon Himself, the whole sanctuary service is a process to remove sin from us so we can be saved and have eternal life. God has done everything so we can have salvation.

Yet, how does this excuse the people who reject that marvelous gift and determine to keep their sins upon themselves.

Are you also of the opinion that God has no right to bring them to judgment, show them why they are not saved, and cleanse the earth of all sin?

After the 1000 years and before the Great White Throne judgment the lost demonstrate that God is just -- they are incurable. In one vast army they will think to capture God's city and dethrone God Himself. They aren't sorry for their sins only sorry they lost the war.
The fairness and love of God will not be in question in anyone's mind except in those who believe that God should allow sin to continue forever.

The presence of God is a consuming fire to sin, and those who cling to sin will be consumed, while those who have allowed His love and glory to burn sin out of their lives will live happily in His presence.

The issue is -- are we allowing God to burn the sin OUT of our lives NOW!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
A dictator tortures, burns and kills, it is a crime. A "righteous" government takes those dictators and tortures, burns and kills them for their crime and it is justice. Interesting.

It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill criminals.

Originally Posted By: APL
What is the sentence for transgression of the law? The second death, right? You do agree, right? EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but leaves the rejectors of His mercy to receive the natural consequence of their transgression. It is not an imposed penalty. Sin is a heinous thing because it destroys what God has made. This is a main point of the great controversy! If Satan had received the consequence of his sin in the beginning, it would not have been apparent to the on looking universe that this was the natural consequence of sin. They would have interpreted it as God executing the sinners, and they would have served God from fear, not from love.

Sin does not kill sinners. Sinners will die the second death because Jesus will resurrect them, judge them, and then burn them alive in a lake of fire.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/29/13 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
Sin does not kill sinners.
And there is lies the big question. I guess the problem with sin is that it makes god mad and makes him want to torture and kill sinners. Of course, what is the sentence against transgression? The second death. And EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but does what?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 02:36 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Indeed, save us from the wrath of the LAMB.


You prove your ignorance again APL.

Look at this quote very carefully and see if you should ask forgiveness before you see the wrath of the lamb.

"The Saviour is presented before John under the symbols of “the Lion of the tribe of Judah” and of “a Lamb as it had been slain.” Revelation 5:5, 6. These symbols represent the union of omnipotent power and self-sacrificing love. The Lion of Judah, so terrible to the rejectors of His grace, will be the Lamb of God to the obedient and faithful. The pillar of fire that speaks terror and wrath to the transgressor of God’s law is a token of light and mercy and deliverance to those who have kept His commandments. The arm strong to smite the rebellious will be strong to deliver the loyal. Everyone who is faithful will be saved. “He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:31. {AA 589.2}

This is proof that you are wrong APL, but God has told me you will not repent.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 02:43 AM

Thanks for giving me the perfect search query APL to prove what God has been sharing with me about this issue...

"I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, “It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years.” {EW 52.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 02:50 AM

So I guess it comes down to this, if you believe you are correct that execution of Justice is murder, then you do not agree with the writtings of Ellen White, and this will drive you away from the church.

I fear for you.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 04:38 AM

Father please pour out your Spirit to unify your church in truth so that when we venture to teach others of your grace it is so defined in our souls that they can see it as well as hear it.

We need to be unified on these issues or it divides the brethren.

In what the Spirit tells me, if we misrepresent the character of God through scripture, it destroys faith. There is only power in the word of God in purity of truth, not in made up fables. There is no power in fables or lies.

Truth when discovered is verified in nature itself.

Truth is perfection in the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord.

Truth has a circuit, there is no variableness of it's path, and when the current reaches back to "GOD ALMIGHTY" the result is always perfect truth. This kind of truth will never fail, but it will always be misunderstood by those who misrepresent God, till the end.

Thank you Father for the promise of your response to this prayer. Always in the name of your Son, Amen.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
So I guess it comes down to this, if you believe you are correct that execution of Justice is murder, then you do not agree with the writtings of Ellen White, and this will drive you away from the church.

I fear for you.


Actually, it is Ellen that says God is not the executioner. It is Ellen that says that God destroys no man. It is Ellen that says that Jesus came to the dark cloud over God's character. It is not me you should fear for my friend. Thankfully we have God's word. You should understand what God's wrath really is. The Jews after their rejection of Christ, confirmed in their stubborn impenitence and had refused the last offers of mercy, “God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen” {GC 28}.

When God’s wrath against sin fell upon Christ as our substitute, it was the separation from His Father that caused Him such great anguish. “This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequence of man’s sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression” {DA 686}. Finally, on the cross, “the wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. … The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man” {DA 753}.

Paul explains in Romans 1:24; Romans 1:26; Romans 1:28, God reveals His wrath by turning impenitent men over to the inevitable results of their rebellion. This persistent resistance of God’s love and mercy culminates in the final revelation of God’s wrath on that day when the Spirit of God is at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, the wicked have no protection from the evil one. “As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose” {GC 614}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 10:36 AM

It's true that God allows sin to reveal its malignant character and natural results. In Jerusalem the many factions in Judea were striving for dominion, some violently agitating to throw off the Romes, others pleading caution and being killed because of it, the fierce passions unleashed and unrestrained by the Holy Spirit caused terrible results. Satan was in control. It was their rebellion that brought the Roman armies against them.

So it will be when Christ leaves the sanctuary and the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the rejecters of His grace. Sin will reveal the terrible reality of what selfish, power hungry carnal natures will do -- it will be a terrible time.

There is no question on that point.

Also that God is merciful and has done everything possible to save and restore is also wonderful truth.




But why do you make God's judgment upon those who chose to follow the great rebel a sinister thing?

Hebrews 10:26-31 is part of a powerful message of Christ's all sufficient and wonderful ministry for the saving of people. Yet it is a warning of the judgment.
.




Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 05:41 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Was Hitler using righteousness to accomplish his goal?

The fact that you persist in writing such a question down shows contempt.
Contempt? Who, you?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Of course God does not do the same thing as Hitler.

The motivations of God could never be compared. He has proven His love so perfectly that there is NO EXCUSE for sin.

The execution of judgment is in perfect righteousness, not in the satanic fury but in the righteous wrath of God against satanic fury.

Who died first? Able was killed by his own brother in the spirit of satanic fury. Did God destroy Cain immediately? No, is he marked for destruction? most definately.
First you say God does not do the same thing as Hitler, and then immediately you swap it with "motivations". Which by so doing, you do indeed say that God does do the exact same thing as Hitler, just you justify it as "righteousness", 'because it's for a good purpose'. Just like Hitler. Ask Hitler if he was using righteousness. Ask those who believed in him if he was using righteousness.


This is what I'm talking about. You and APL both are confusing the issue.

"have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?Matthew 12:5... in doing his work on the Sabbath day, is he committing a sin?

You do not know the difference between sacred or Holy things and what is common or earthly things.

You both put God on the same order as Hitler and accuse me of doing the deed?

But James, I think you are confused as to how to separate the two. I am indeed accusing you of putting God on the same order as Hitler as you do not know the difference between sacred or Holy things and what is common or earthly things. You are unable to distinguish between the two.

If you think you can make a distinction, why not do it? But you do not know the difference between right and wrong. You only make a distinction between who is doing the act, although the act is exactly the same.

Until you make a distinction between right and wrong, you will continue to see God acting in the same way as Hitler. You just say that one dictator is "righteous" and the other dictator is "unrighteous". Which means some other opinion may be different. Until you make the distinction between right and wrong, anything that APL or others say will make absolutely no sense to you as you don't see a problem with God doing something which is wrong. Therefore, you do see God doing things that are "wrong" but you whitewash them as being "right". Only after you understand what you are doing will looking at any specific instance mean anything to you.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Indeed, save us from the wrath of the LAMB.


You prove your ignorance again APL.

Look at this quote very carefully and see if you should ask forgiveness before you see the wrath of the lamb.


Quote:
Re 6:16 And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
So why do the wicked say, "wrath of the Lamb"?
As you pointed out, He is referred to as a Lion elsewhere. So why don't the wicked say, "wrath of the Lion of the tribe of Judah"?



Yikes! It's the baby sheep!

Run for your lives!
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: kland


Until you make a distinction between right and wrong, you will continue to see God acting in the same way as Hitler. You just say that one dictator is "righteous" and the other dictator is "unrighteous". Which means some other opinion may be different. Until you make the distinction between right and wrong, anything that APL or others say will make absolutely no sense to you as you don't see a problem with God doing something which is wrong. Therefore, you do see God doing things that are "wrong" but you whitewash them as being "right". Only after you understand what you are doing will looking at any specific instance mean anything to you.


Wow -- people really equate God's righteous acts with Hitler?
Sounds to me like satan talking, saying, "God has no right to end my reign, I can kill, main and ruin everything God has made and stands for, but God DARE NOT punish or put an end to me or my henchmen or I will accuse Him of being the worst tyrant and the cause of it all.

According to your reasoning Hitler should not have been stopped and God should just step aside -- get out of the way so satan can take over???


To satisfy that outrageous claim, God will withdraw for a short time and everyone will see what a disaster to everything that is just and good allowing Satan full reign will be.
The righteous justice of God in putting a final and complete end to it will be acknowledged by all.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
It's true that God allows sin to reveal its malignant character and natural results. In Jerusalem the many factions in Judea were striving for dominion, some violently agitating to throw off the Romes, others pleading caution and being killed because of it, the fierce passions unleashed and unrestrained by the Holy Spirit caused terrible results. Satan was in control. It was their rebellion that brought the Roman armies against them.

So it will be when Christ leaves the sanctuary and the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the rejecters of His grace. Sin will reveal the terrible reality of what selfish, power hungry carnal natures will do -- it will be a terrible time.

There is no question on that point.

Also that God is merciful and has done everything possible to save and restore is also wonderful truth.

But why do you make God's judgment upon those who chose to follow the great rebel a sinister thing?

Hebrews 10:26-31 is part of a powerful message of Christ's all sufficient and wonderful ministry for the saving of people. Yet it is a warning of the judgment.
.


As some say here, where is the malignity of sin? Mountain Man: Sin does not kill. Green: "If 'transgression of the law' causes suffering, why are so many in this world today finding pleasure in it?" It does not appear to me that these gentlemen believe that sin is all that malignant or that the natural results of sin is death. Or "the one" that says 7 least plagues are caused by God directly! The last plagues are poured out by God withdrawing his protection.

Christ bore the penalty of transgression. What is the penalty of transgression? The second death. How was God involved in the the death of Christ? That should forever settle the question of how sinners will die in the end.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
According to your reasoning Hitler should not have been stopped and God should just step aside -- get out of the way so satan can take over???
Not sure if you thought through that statement.

If you say God removed Hitler, why did God allow him to continue for so long and hurt so many people? And the cause of it all, if you say God allowed him to continue, then you are indeed saying God is the cause of it all.

Are you saying the worst tyrant, killed by an even more powerful Tyrant?


But anyway, isn't your point, "Do it my way, or I'll kill you!!!"?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: kland


Yikes! It's the baby sheep!

Run for your lives!


Your comments only show you have no concept of the glory, majesty, and holiness of the One Who died for you in order that you might be saved.
When Christ comes, He comes in the full splendor and glory which is God.
Are you denying that the rejecters of salvation will run for their lives?



Quote:
Heb. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


read Rev. 19 also

Quote:

Rev. 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Who shall stand? The ones who

7:14 have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The rest are slain . Their death isn't caused by the withdrawal of God but by His coming in the full glory of His righteousness.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland


Until you make a distinction between right and wrong, you will continue to see God acting in the same way as Hitler. You just say that one dictator is "righteous" and the other dictator is "unrighteous". Which means some other opinion may be different. Until you make the distinction between right and wrong, anything that APL or others say will make absolutely no sense to you as you don't see a problem with God doing something which is wrong. Therefore, you do see God doing things that are "wrong" but you whitewash them as being "right". Only after you understand what you are doing will looking at any specific instance mean anything to you.


Wow -- people really equate God's righteous acts with Hitler?
Sounds to me like satan talking, saying, "God has no right to end my reign, I can kill, main and ruin everything God has made and stands for, but God DARE NOT punish or put an end to me or my henchmen or I will accuse Him of being the worst tyrant and the cause of it all.

According to your reasoning Hitler should not have been stopped and God should just step aside -- get out of the way so satan can take over???


To satisfy that outrageous claim, God will withdraw for a short time and everyone will see what a disaster to everything that is just and good allowing Satan full reign will be.
The righteous justice of God in putting a final and complete end to it will be acknowledged by all.


Dedication - IF God had allowed Satan to reap the natural consequence of his sin, would he have died in the beginning? Most here say no! God would have had to kill him, because sin does not kill! It appears to me that you believe that God in the end euthanizes sinners, that they do not die a natural death, that the motivation for killing makes all the difference, thus the difference between Hitler and God. The death of Christ clears this all up.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill criminals. . . . Sin does not kill sinners. Sinners will die the second death because Jesus will resurrect them, judge them, and then burn them alive in a lake of fire.

A: And there is lies the big question. I guess the problem with sin is that it makes god mad and makes him want to torture and kill sinners. Of course, what is the sentence against transgression? The second death. And EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but does what?

Jesus will execute justice and judgment. He will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Jesus has "authority to execute judgment" (John 5:27). "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all" (Jude 14-15).

Quote:
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. {GC 539.3}

The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. {GC 627.2}

Yet when required to execute justice against the wicked king of Amalek, he performed the unwelcome task unflinchingly. {ST, August 31, 1882 par. 19}

Those who engaged in this work of slaying, however painful, were now to realize that they were executing upon their brethren a solemn punishment from God; and for executing this painful work, contrary to their own feelings, God would bestow upon them his blessing. {1SP 251.2}

He who presents himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. {ST, April 3, 1884 par. 5}

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. {EW 52.1}

How much less can transgressors look upon the Son of God when He shall appear in the glory of His Father, surrounded by all the heavenly host, to execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law and the rejecters of His atonement. {PP 340.3}

. . . the wrath of an offended God was to be proclaimed against the sinner; but the power which the Roman Church assumes to visit that wrath upon the offender is not established by any direction of Christ; he himself will execute the sentence pronounced against the impenitent. {3SP 245.1}

The arm, long stretched, strong to save all who come unto Him, is strong to execute His judgment upon all who would not come unto Him that they might have life. {TMK 356.4}

I realize you believe Jesus will execute wrath and judgment and vengeance and retribution by withdrawing His protection and permitting sin to run its natural course; however, this view of the final judgment ignores, dismisses, disregards, rejects the fact Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire - "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked."
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
The death of Christ clears this all up.

How so?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 07:39 PM

According to APL and Kland's reasoning God can't win. He is powerless to stop sin.
As fae as I'm concerned they are promoting Satan's lie that if God stops him [Satan and his evil hosts), this somehow makes God the evil one.

Now they say if God can end evil but allows sin to demonstrate it's evil then God is evil, as well as saying if God puts an end to it after it has demonstrated it's terribleness then God is evil.

"Yes, God has put checks on evil all along so it won't totally destroy or subdue good. But evil has to be allowed to demonstrate it's utter evil nature so people understand its malignant character.

Sin is terribly ruinous to humans and all creation. Sin always ends in death. If it weren't for the grace and love of God, the first death would be the end-- there would be no hope for anything beyond. No hope beyond the grave.

It is the result of sin that causes death, yet sin itself does not kill directly, sin can also bring considerable but very brief pleasure. Sin causes those who live in sin to do and think in ways that cause shattered emotions, ruined health, it stirs up the fierce passions and causes people to do unlawful deeds and plan terrible things that ruin God's creation and bring destruction.
But sin itself isn't going to cause the biggest army to ever assemble on the face of the earth, composed of all the lost and all the fallen angels, to suddenly drop dead.

It is the consuming fire of God that puts a final and complete end to all that is sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 08:04 PM

Hog wash dedication. By your reasoning, God can only win if He uses Satan's methods.

Interesting reasoning you have there dedication, "Sin is ruinous to humans and all creation. Sin always ends in death.". BUT - "sin itself does not kill directly". So, what causes the death then? GOD??? Is that what you are trying to say?

What killed Christ? God? Did Christ die the death of a sinner? MM says Christ died only the first death, not the second. If you believe that Christ died the death that a sinner will die, then you have your answer as to how sinners die.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
If you believe that Christ died the death that a sinner will die, then you have your answer as to how sinners die.


I guess you must believe hell will be littered with crosses as thick as forest trees.

Of course, that is not what the Bible tells us. The Bible does mention Sodom and Gomorrah as being an example to us of hell. Were those people crucified?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
If you believe that Christ died the death that a sinner will die, then you have your answer as to how sinners die.


I guess you must believe hell will be littered with crosses as thick as forest trees.

Of course, that is not what the Bible tells us. The Bible does mention Sodom and Gomorrah as being an example to us of hell. Were those people crucified?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Green - do you believe that Christ died of crucifixion??????

Oh - I have to add this: Hosea 11:8
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/30/13 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Interesting reasoning you have there dedication, "Sin is ruinous to humans and all creation. Sin always ends in death.". BUT - "sin itself does not kill directly". So, what causes the death then? GOD??? Is that what you are trying to say?


I explained what I meant but you chose to put your own spin on it and ignore what I actually said.

Sin itself, is not a person with the ability to kill satan and his followers, sin is an attitude of mind and character that results in destructive activities, thinking, emotions, and agendas. Beings can sin for years without dying -- but death comes none the less. That is the result of sin -- and without Christ that would be it -- no hope beyond.


But because of what Christ did ALL will live again -- some raised to everlasting life thanks to the wonderful plan of salvation, others to receive eternal death since they rejected salvation.

Christ BURST the portals of the tomb.
Till Christ's victory over death, the first death would have been the final death, but Christ was "the first begotten of the dead" (Rev. 1:5)
And because of Him -- we too will be resurrected.

Christ willingly laid down His life, no one took it from Him.

It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. {COL 314.3}
"An earthquake marked the hour when Christ laid down His life, and another earthquake witnessed the moment when He took it up in triumph. {DA 780.1}

"Therefore doth my Father love me," said Christ, "because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father" (John 10:17, 18).


No sinner at the end of the 1000 years has that option. They have received the RESURRECTION that Christ's victory over death provided, but they cannot be given eternal life. They rejected that.

When Christ hung upon the cross, He experienced the wrath of God against sin -- and felt the sins of the world He bore were too great for Him to enter death and come out again a conqueror.

But He did triumph over the grave and thus turned the first death from "eternal death" to a sleep from which all will awake.

Those who die the second death will never live again.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM says Christ died only the first death, not the second. If you believe that Christ died the death that a sinner will die, then you have your answer as to how sinners die.

Jesus did not die in a lake of fire - the second death. The Scapegoat, Satan, will die the second death with the sins of the saved in a lake of fire.

Revelation
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 03:01 AM

APL, it is curious you ignored this post:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill criminals. . . . Sin does not kill sinners. Sinners will die the second death because Jesus will resurrect them, judge them, and then burn them alive in a lake of fire.

A: And there is lies the big question. I guess the problem with sin is that it makes god mad and makes him want to torture and kill sinners. Of course, what is the sentence against transgression? The second death. And EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but does what?

Jesus will execute justice and judgment. He will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Jesus has "authority to execute judgment" (John 5:27). "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all" (Jude 14-15).

Quote:
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. {GC 539.3}

The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. {GC 627.2}

Yet when required to execute justice against the wicked king of Amalek, he performed the unwelcome task unflinchingly. {ST, August 31, 1882 par. 19}

Those who engaged in this work of slaying, however painful, were now to realize that they were executing upon their brethren a solemn punishment from God; and for executing this painful work, contrary to their own feelings, God would bestow upon them his blessing. {1SP 251.2}

He who presents himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. {ST, April 3, 1884 par. 5}

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. {EW 52.1}

How much less can transgressors look upon the Son of God when He shall appear in the glory of His Father, surrounded by all the heavenly host, to execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law and the rejecters of His atonement. {PP 340.3}

. . . the wrath of an offended God was to be proclaimed against the sinner; but the power which the Roman Church assumes to visit that wrath upon the offender is not established by any direction of Christ; he himself will execute the sentence pronounced against the impenitent. {3SP 245.1}

The arm, long stretched, strong to save all who come unto Him, is strong to execute His judgment upon all who would not come unto Him that they might have life. {TMK 356.4}

I realize you believe Jesus will execute wrath and judgment and vengeance and retribution by withdrawing His protection and permitting sin to run its natural course; however, this view of the final judgment ignores, dismisses, disregards, rejects the fact Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire - "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked."

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked." You seem to think "causes" means "permits" - clearly it does not.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 04:12 AM

I just came across a list of publishing standards by a Christian press (non-Adventist, for those who must know). They base their publishing standards on Philippians 4:8, with a remark about what kind of content they would like to publish as pertains to each of the keywords in that verse. The "just" one was relevant to this thread.

Quote:
3. It must be just. This means it must be righteous or consistent with the commandments of God. It also means it must be fair. We want to promote content that promotes righteousness and godly living. By the way, this doesn’t mean that novels can’t have evil characters. (There are plenty of them in God’s story.) But it does mean that in the end righteousness is rewarded and evil punished—if not in this life, the next.


smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 04:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, it is curious you ignored this post:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill criminals. . . . Sin does not kill sinners. Sinners will die the second death because Jesus will resurrect them, judge them, and then burn them alive in a lake of fire.

A: And there is lies the big question. I guess the problem with sin is that it makes god mad and makes him want to torture and kill sinners. Of course, what is the sentence against transgression? The second death. And EGW says that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression, but does what?

Jesus will execute justice and judgment. He will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Jesus has "authority to execute judgment" (John 5:27). "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all" (Jude 14-15).

Quote:
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. {GC 539.3}

The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. {GC 627.2}

Yet when required to execute justice against the wicked king of Amalek, he performed the unwelcome task unflinchingly. {ST, August 31, 1882 par. 19}

Those who engaged in this work of slaying, however painful, were now to realize that they were executing upon their brethren a solemn punishment from God; and for executing this painful work, contrary to their own feelings, God would bestow upon them his blessing. {1SP 251.2}

He who presents himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. {ST, April 3, 1884 par. 5}

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. {EW 52.1}

How much less can transgressors look upon the Son of God when He shall appear in the glory of His Father, surrounded by all the heavenly host, to execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law and the rejecters of His atonement. {PP 340.3}

. . . the wrath of an offended God was to be proclaimed against the sinner; but the power which the Roman Church assumes to visit that wrath upon the offender is not established by any direction of Christ; he himself will execute the sentence pronounced against the impenitent. {3SP 245.1}

The arm, long stretched, strong to save all who come unto Him, is strong to execute His judgment upon all who would not come unto Him that they might have life. {TMK 356.4}

I realize you believe Jesus will execute wrath and judgment and vengeance and retribution by withdrawing His protection and permitting sin to run its natural course; however, this view of the final judgment ignores, dismisses, disregards, rejects the fact Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire - "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked."

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked." You seem to think "causes" means "permits" - clearly it does not.


Yeah - and God caused the serpents to bite the people.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 04:30 AM

Based on the Philippians 4:8 principle brought out by this Christian publisher, a corollary question could be asked with respect to this thread.

The question of this thread is: Does God punish?
Corollary question would be: Does God reward?

If God does not punish, perhaps He does not reward either. After all, how fair would it be to be one-sided; and isn't God fair? If God allows sin to bring about its own results, why not follow the same approach with respect to righteousness?

Of course, the Bible tells us that God will punish and reward. If God won't actually punish, then how can we trust the Bible to be correct when it says He will reward?

The devil just uses these "human wisdom" concepts to promote doubts in everyone's minds. It would be far better for us to accept God at His word. As Ellen White put it, "Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?"

Not me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I just came across a list of publishing standards by a Christian press (non-Adventist, for those who must know). They base their publishing standards on Philippians 4:8, with a remark about what kind of content they would like to publish as pertains to each of the keywords in that verse. The "just" one was relevant to this thread.

Quote:
3. It must be just. This means it must be righteous or consistent with the commandments of God. It also means it must be fair. We want to promote content that promotes righteousness and godly living. By the way, this doesn’t mean that novels can’t have evil characters. (There are plenty of them in God’s story.) But it does mean that in the end righteousness is rewarded and evil punished—if not in this life, the next.


smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Yes, justice == righteousness. And what do the commandments of God say? Shall I quote the KJV?????
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Yeah - and God caused the serpents to bite the people.
I believe MM would say that God directed those serpents to multiply and go to the exact path the Israelites were taking, lay in wait, and then directly and intentionally led them to and opened their mouths on to the people's ankles. It was completely according to plan!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 07:10 PM

Ge 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die.

For there's no harm in the fruit. If there will be any dying around here, it will be because God is doing the killing.

Ge 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And He will be upset with you knowing as much as He does and therefore will kill you! Do you really want to obey such a dictator as that?

Ge 3:6 ¶ So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Yeah - and God caused the serpents to bite the people.

It is impossible to study with someone who completely ignores the contribution of contributing participants.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 07:17 PM

Doesn't righteousness imply something about rightness? That is, there must be a distinction between right and wrong rather than one dictator doing an act and it be considered wrong and another dictator doing the exact same act be considered righteousness.


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
however, this view of the final judgment ignores, dismisses, disregards, rejects the fact Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire
I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but I don't recall if Hitler burned anyone alive. So maybe if you're comparing God to the Inquisition would be more accurate?

Set 'em on fire!
rejoice
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 07:52 PM

Kland, you believe nature is self-acting. You believe Jesus set things in motion and now they act in and of themselves. You assume nature is free to wreak havoc when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand. The following passages paint an entirely different picture of God and nature:

Quote:
The natural world has, in itself, no power but that which God supplies. {1SM 293.1}

God is the superintendent, as well as the Creator, of all things. The Divine Being is engaged in upholding the things that He has created. The same hand that holds the mountains and balances them in position, guides the worlds in their mysterious march around the sun. {1SM 293.2}

God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans. He employs His agencies that vegetation may flourish. He sends the dew and the rain and the sunshine, that verdure may spring forth, and spread its carpet over the earth; that the shrubs and fruit trees may bud and blossom and bring forth. It is not to be supposed that a law is set in motion for the seed to work itself, that the leaf appears because it must do so of itself. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results. It is through the immediate agency of God that every tiny seed breaks through the earth, and springs into life. Every leaf grows, every flower blooms, by the power of God. {1SM 294.2}

The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. "Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building (1 Corinthians 3:9). In God we live and move and have our being. Each heartbeat, each breath, is the inspiration of Him who breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life--the inspiration of the ever-present God, the great I AM. {1SM 294.3}

God is perpetually at work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth produces its bounties and the world keeps up its continual march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotations. The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. It is not as the result of a mechanism, that, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is the continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. It is God that maketh the sun to rise in the heavens. He openeth the windows of heaven and giveth rain. He maketh the grass to grow upon the mountains. "He giveth snow like wool: and scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, . . . he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures." Although the Lord has ceased His work in creating, He is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things which He has made. Said Christ, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (MS 4, 1882). {6BC 1062.5}

The idea that serpents will gang up and attack humans when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand contradicts the inspired passages above (and the ones posted throughout this thread). Jesus uses nature to "carry out His plans". "He effects results . . . according to His will".

1. God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans.

2. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results.

3. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will.

PS - In the past you have ignored these facts. I have no reason to hope you will deal with them now. But ignoring them will not make them go away.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 12/31/13 08:08 PM

Kland, fire from the presence of Jesus in the most holy place blazed out and killed Nadab and Abihu:

Quote:
"And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord."

God had forbidden them to use the common fire to present before him with the incense, upon pain of death. {RH, July 29, 1873 par. 4}

Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1}

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

The minds of Nadab and Abihu were beclouded because of intemperance, and in the place of taking the fire God had commanded them they took the common fire, and God destroyed them. {Te 287.2}

Nadab and Abihu were slain by the fire of God's wrath for their intemperance in the use of wine. God would have his people understand that they will be visited according to their obedience or transgressions. {2SM 412.4}

And the wrath of God was kindled against Nadab and Abihu for their disobedience, and a fire went out from the Lord, and devoured them in the sight of the people. By this judgment God designed to teach the people that they must approach him with reverence and awe, and in his own appointed manner. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 9}

Do you think Jesus withdrew His restraining hand and fire acted in and of itself and killed Nadab and Abihu? If so, how does that make Jesus any less culpable?

What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
The idea that serpents will gang up and attack humans when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand contradicts the inspired passages above (and the ones posted throughout this thread). Jesus uses nature to "carry out His plans". "He effects results . . . according to His will". 

1. God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans.

2. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results.

3. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all His works according to His will.


Originally Posted By: EGW
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}


Hm - did God create the fiery serpents? Hm - did God command the serpents to bit the people?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hm - HOW are death and hell cast into the lake of fire?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 12:07 PM



There are countless times when God simply removes His protection from those who reject Him.
The snake scene was one such case.

The desert is full of poisonous snakes -- people are still warned of that in that area.
Quote:
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}


Yet just because that is most often the case, does not mean God will not execute justice upon the rejecters of salvation.

The case of the two drunk priests entering the temple with strange fire were obviously entering a place in a presumptuous manner, where the glory of God dwelt, and to them the glory of God was a consuming fire and they died.

I mean it's true God removed His protection that would have enabled them to live in the presence of His glory, but by removing that protection they were still killed.



The reason for the investigative judgement, as well as the millennial review of the cases, and the white throne judgement is to show that God is perfectly fair and just in who is saved and who suffers the second eternal death.

At that time there will be NO one in the whole universe who thinks God is a tyrant because He will destroy Satan and His followers.

Just how it will happen is actually totally irrelevant -- it is ordained by God, the method is irrelevant, the vast army assembled to attack God's city probably have weapons of mass destruction which could be the "fire in the midst of thee" that all explode at once; coupled with "fire from beneath" setting off mega volcanos; and fire from heaven. But fire it will be that encircles the whole world and consumes everything outside God's city.

Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}


The bottom line is there will be one world wide fire that destroys every trace of sin and it will be controlled by God to do its full and final work. It is the final death of all elements that sustain sin and it is the end of hell -- when it is all over, there will be no more death, no more pain, no more crying, NO MORE SIN. Those rescued from this world of sin during their lifetime, by the matchless love and grace of Jesus will have life eternal with our Redeemer.

Let's encourage every one to be hid in Christ for He is the ONLY door to salvation, and not be found standing outside the Holy city, like the people in Noah's day, standing outside the ark.





Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
I did study the Sabbath School Lessons this past quarter, and indeed God has done everything possible to win, forgive, restore, and cleanse every person.
Yes, Christ takes our sins upon Himself, the whole sanctuary service is a process to remove sin from us so we can be saved and have eternal life. God has done everything so we can have salvation.

Yet, how does this excuse the people who reject that marvelous gift and determine to keep their sins upon themselves.

Are you also of the opinion that God has no right to bring them to judgment, show them why they are not saved, and cleanse the earth of all sin?

After the 1000 years and before the Great White Throne judgment the lost demonstrate that God is just -- they are incurable. In one vast army they will think to capture God's city and dethrone God Himself. They aren't sorry for their sins only sorry they lost the war.
The fairness and love of God will not be in question in anyone's mind except in those who believe that God should allow sin to continue forever.

The presence of God is a consuming fire to sin, and those who cling to sin will be consumed, while those who have allowed His love and glory to burn sin out of their lives will live happily in His presence.

The issue is -- are we allowing God to burn the sin OUT of our lives NOW!


Reading those lessons is not doing anyone much good if they have a preconceived image of the nature of God.

That goes for the nature of fire as well. Most "Christian" churches have a wrong concept of what fire is. The emergence of the Seventh-day Adventist church meant a reformation with new emphasis of the nature of God, redemption, the second coming, of health, of the Sabbath, of tithing, and of fire, not as an eternally burning element to punish the wicked. But it seems awfully hard for some Adventists to let go of some of those Babylonian concepts.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 06:10 PM

For months I have watched the fire gushing out of the earth,lightening up the sky, and I have even walked on the hardened surface with fire in the cracks. It makes an impression.

God uses the fire and water to cleanse the work of man that He will be able to crate a new earth and a new heaven.

Is it the fire which extinguishes the life of the wicked for ever?

What is needed for man to live? What is the second death?
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You assume nature is free to wreak havoc when Jesus withdraws His restraining hand. The following passages paint an entirely different picture of God and nature:


Quote:
The natural world has, in itself, no power but that which God supplies. {1SM 293.1}

God is the superintendent, as well as the Creator, of all things. The Divine Being is engaged in upholding the things that He has created. The same hand that holds the mountains and balances them in position, guides the worlds in their mysterious march around the sun. {1SM 293.2}



In whose interest did Ellen write the following:
Quote:
Show that it was sin which marred God’s perfect work; that thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God. Bid them see how the earth, though marred with the curse of sin, still reveals God’s goodness. The green fields, the lofty trees, the glad sunshine, the clouds, the dew, the solemn stillness of the night, the glory of the starry heavens, and the moon in its beauty all bear witness of the Creator. Not a drop of rain falls, not a ray of light is shed on our unthankful world, but it testifies to the forbearance and love of God. {CCh 264.6}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 07:18 PM

Dedication, thank you for posting this passage on a different thread:

Quote:
Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. {PP 404.4}

God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17) is the divine command. Then "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26, 27. {PP 405.1}

APL and Kland vigorously advocate Jesus does not destroy.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
In whose interest did Ellen write the following: "thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God"

"The natural world has, in itself, no power but that which God supplies. {1SM 293.1} Evil angels cannot supply the power nature needs to grow and move and breathe. Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to manipulate nature, but it is Jesus alone who supplies the power for their creations to grow and move and breathe.


Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

A: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Hm - HOW are death and hell cast into the lake of fire?

Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 07:38 PM

d:There are countless times when God simply removes His protection from those who reject Him.
The snake scene was one such case.

a:MM, it seems me, to not agree with you (and me) on this issue.

Quote:
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}


d:Yet just because that is most often the case, does not mean God will not execute justice upon the rejecters of salvation.

The case of the two drunk priests entering the temple with strange fire were obviously entering a place in a presumptuous manner, where the glory of God dwelt, and to them the glory of God was a consuming fire and they died.

I mean it's true God removed His protection that would have enabled them to live in the presence of His glory, but by removing that protection they were still killed.

a:Are you equating removal of protection with active execution? When men make their irrivocable stand agains God, can God honors their choice and moves His protection and they die, it is not execution by God.

d:The reason for the investigative judgement, as well as the millennial review of the cases, and the white throne judgement is to show that God is perfectly fair and just in who is saved and who suffers the second eternal death.

a:The investigative judgment - it is very much a trial about GOD and His methods and ways that is on review before the universe, that it will be shown that God is fair and just in who He resurrects first.

d:At that time there will be NO one in the whole universe who thinks God is a tyrant because He will destroy Satan and His followers.

a:I agree that at the end, God will be shown to be innocent of the origin and continuation of sin, See DA58. The malignanty of sin will now be understood and when God gives sinners that which they have chosen, they will die, and the universe will know WHY they die.

d:Just how it will happen is actually totally irrelevant -- it is ordained by God, the method is irrelevant, the vast army assembled to attack God's city probably have weapons of mass destruction which could be the "fire in the midst of thee" that all explode at once; coupled with "fire from beneath" setting off mega volcanos; and fire from heaven. But fire it will be that encircles the whole world and consumes everything outside God's city.

a:HOW IT HAPPENS IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT? Really? I don't think so! I think it is central to our understanding of God and of sin!


Quote:
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

a:The serpents were part of this arsenal.

d:The bottom line is there will be one world wide fire that destroys every trace of sin and it will be controlled by God to do its full and final work. It is the final death of all elements that sustain sin and it is the end of hell -- when it is all over, there will be no more death, no more pain, no more crying, NO MORE SIN. Those rescued from this world of sin during their lifetime, by the matchless love and grace of Jesus will have life eternal with our Redeemer.

a:Hm - you have defined sin above as an attitude of mind. Have you changed your definition of sin???

d:Let's encourage every one to be hid in Christ for He is the ONLY door to salvation, and not be found standing outside the Holy city, like the people in Noah's day, standing outside the ark.

a:Those outside the Ark did not know God. Jeremiah 9:23-24 "Thus said the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD." Then when we get to verse 25, we will understand how punishment comes on to sinners.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 07:59 PM

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

A: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Hm - HOW are death and hell cast into the lake of fire?

Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
d:There are countless times when God simply removes His protection from those who reject Him.
The snake scene was one such case.

a:MM, it seems me, to not agree with you (and me) on this issue.

Jesus did remove His protection. However, He worked to ensure the snakes did not bite the wrong people. You think permitting the snakes to kill people makes Jesus less culpable. Such a person, in a court of law, would be convicted of murder. Imagine a snake handler allowing his snakes to bite and kill people. He would be convicted of murder. And rightly so. But not Jesus.

The Jews Jesus allowed to be killed by snakes did not pay the penalty for their sins. He will resurrect them, judge them, and then cast them alive into a lake of fire. They will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness and then they will finally die.

Quote:
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

Jesus, in union with the saints, meted out to the wicked the portion they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written in the book of death, and set off against their names. Satan and his angels were also judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. It so far exceeded their punishment that it could not be compared with theirs. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was to still live and suffer on much longer. {1SG 212.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/01/14 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus did remove His protection. However, He worked to ensure the snakes did not bite the wrong people. You think permitting the snakes to kill people makes Jesus less culpable. Such a person, in a court of law, would be convicted of murder. Imagine a snake handler allowing his snakes to bite and kill people. He would be convicted of murder. And rightly so. But not Jesus.

It is interesting that you bring in human court of law. In God's law, if you are angry with your brother, you are in danger of hell fire. Do human courts support this? As for removal of protection, you have stated that there is nothing the snakes could not do unless God caused them to do it. Do you still hold that view? And free will, I don't think you believe such a thing can exist. If God does support free will, the removal of protection is not an arbitrary act on God's part to punish sinners. It is a necessary part on God's part for those that reject Him. Read GC 36.1

Originally Posted By: MM
The Jews Jesus allowed to be killed by snakes did not pay the penalty for their sins. He will resurrect them, judge them, and then cast them alive into a lake of fire. They will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness and then they will finally die.


Who said that this was the ultimate penalty for sin? Read GC36 - God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin. What is that sentence? The second death. Does EGW contradict herself? I think not!

Originally Posted By: MM
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

Cause and Effect.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 02:58 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Ge 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die.

For there's no harm in the fruit. If there will be any dying around here, it will be because God is doing the killing.

Ge 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And He will be upset with you knowing as much as He does and therefore will kill you! Do you really want to obey such a dictator as that?

Ge 3:6 ¶ So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.


Yes, you are voicing the deceptive voice of satan talking through a serpent. But let's continue the story.

Satan also added, "look at me, I'm not afraid of God. I'll do exactly as I please and eat this fruit -- see I didn't die instead I'm advanced in the evolutionist scheme into a talking serpent!

And yes, Eve believed him and doubted God's goodness.

She runs to Adam. Now Adam was not deceived by the serpent, He came up with the "A God of love would never punish for such a little thing" theory.

He thought "that He who had given them so many evidences of His love, would pardon this one transgression, or that they would not be subjected to so dire a punishment" PP 57

However the law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings. He knew disregard of His law would bring countless woe, disharmony and untold evil.

God had every right to nip it in the bud and remove sin quickly and immediately, and create beings who would keep the harmony and peace throughout creation thus totally avoiding all the pain, turmoil and strife that follows in the wake of sin, but that would also remove genuine obedience given with love, and apparently validate Satan's distorted claims that God demanded obedience for selfish reasons.

So why didn't they forfeit life that day?
Because Christ stepped in!!!


Quote:
The instant man accepted the temptations of Satan, and did the very things God had said he should not do, Christ, the Son of God, stood between the living and the dead, saying, "Let the punishment fall on Me. I will stand in man's place. He shall have another chance." {FLB 75.3}

As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. Christ knew that He would have to suffer, yet He became man's substitute. As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race, with just as much power to avert the doom pronounced upon the guilty as when He died upon the cross of Calvary. {FLB 75.4}

The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man's Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. {Con 19}

As our Mediator, Christ works incessantly. Whether men receive or reject Him, He works earnestly for them. He grants them life and light, striving by His Spirit to win them from Satan's service. And while the Saviour works, Satan also works, with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, and with unflagging energy. But victory will never be his. {RH, March 12, 1901 par. 5}


And in the end

Quote:
When Christ shall come in His glory, the wicked cannot endure to behold Him. The light of His presence, which is life to those who love Him, is death to the ungodly. The expectation of His coming is to them a "fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation." Hebrews 10:27. When He shall appear, they will pray to be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. {MB 26.1}

The forbearance of God has been very great, so great that when we consider the continuous insult to His holy commandments we marvel. The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes. But He will certainly arise to punish the wicked, who so boldly defy the just claims of the decalogue. {HP 345.5}







Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 04:57 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: What about the lake of fire? Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?

A: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Hm - HOW are death and hell cast into the lake of fire?

Jesus will burn alive resurrected sinners in a lake of fire. Do you disagree?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
m: Jesus did remove His protection. However, He worked to ensure the snakes did not bite the wrong people. You think permitting the snakes to kill people makes Jesus less culpable. Such a person, in a court of law, would be convicted of murder. Imagine a snake handler allowing his snakes to bite and kill people. He would be convicted of murder. And rightly so. But not Jesus.

A: It is interesting that you bring in human court of law. In God's law, if you are angry with your brother, you are in danger of hell fire. Do human courts support this? As for removal of protection, you have stated that there is nothing the snakes could not do unless God caused them to do it. Do you still hold that view? And free will, I don't think you believe such a thing can exist. If God does support free will, the removal of protection is not an arbitrary act on God's part to punish sinners. It is a necessary part on God's part for those that reject Him. Read GC 36.1

Imagine a snake handler allowing his snakes to bite and kill people. He would be convicted of murder. And rightly so. But not Jesus. He allowed snakes to bite and kill thousands of people with impunity.

Quote:
M: The Jews Jesus allowed to be killed by snakes did not pay the penalty for their sins. He will resurrect them, judge them, and then cast them alive into a lake of fire. They will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness and then they will finally die.

A: Who said that this was the ultimate penalty for sin? Read GC36 - God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin. What is that sentence? The second death. Does EGW contradict herself? I think not!

Here's what Jesus said about executing justice and judgment:

Quote:
Exodus
12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

Ezekiel
5:15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that [are] round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken [it].
5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for [their] destruction, [and] which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken [it].
25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Micah
5:15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

John
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You have consistently ignored these (and other) passages. You blow them off as if they don't exist. I suspect you believe they must be interpreted to mean Jesus will withdraw His restraining hand and permit sin and evil to run its natural course.

However, if Jesus were to allow sin and evil to run its natural course sinners would eat of the tree of life and live forever. "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". Contrary to what you believe, sinners die the first death because Jesus refuses to allow them access to the tree of life. You have also ignored this fact as if it doesn't exist.

Quote:
EGW: They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

A: Cause and Effect.

Here's how the prophets describe it:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Cause and effect? How so?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 05:28 AM

APL, fire from the presence of Jesus in the most holy place blazed out and killed Nadab and Abihu:

Quote:
"And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord."

God had forbidden them to use the common fire to present before him with the incense, upon pain of death. {RH, July 29, 1873 par. 4}

Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1}

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

The minds of Nadab and Abihu were beclouded because of intemperance, and in the place of taking the fire God had commanded them they took the common fire, and God destroyed them. {Te 287.2}

Nadab and Abihu were slain by the fire of God's wrath for their intemperance in the use of wine. God would have his people understand that they will be visited according to their obedience or transgressions. {2SM 412.4}

And the wrath of God was kindled against Nadab and Abihu for their disobedience, and a fire went out from the Lord, and devoured them in the sight of the people. By this judgment God designed to teach the people that they must approach him with reverence and awe, and in his own appointed manner. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 9}

Do you think Jesus withdrew His restraining hand and fire acted in and of itself and killed Nadab and Abihu?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:01 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
APL, fire from the presence of Jesus in the most holy place blazed out and killed Nadab and Abihu:
Yes, they when where they could not go! Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me and live. They went into the sanctuary without the protection of the incense. In this case it they entered into God’s presence with their own fire, their own righteousness, which cannot endure before Him.

This is also interesting fire! What to you does it mean they were "consumed"? Leviticus 10:4-5 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp. 5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.

Interesting fire indeed. Their coats were intact.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:14 AM

Originally Posted By: mm
You have consistently ignored these (and other) passages. You blow them off as if they don't exist. I suspect you believe they must be interpreted to mean Jesus will withdraw His restraining hand and permit sin and evil to run its natural course.

You interpret these verses from a human emotion, that God must acts as we do. You read that God sent the fiery serpents to mean exactly that and blow off the idea that this is a human description of the event! When we KNOW that God did not send the serpents, but removed His protection. You blow off EGW comments which says God destroys no man, that God is not the executioner. You blow off scripture references such as Deuteronomy 32!
Originally Posted By: EGW
Men cannot with impunity reject the warning which God in mercy sends them. A message was sent from heaven to the world in Noah's day, and their salvation depended upon the manner in which they treated that message. Because they rejected the warning, the Spirit of God was withdrawn from the sinful race, and they perished in the waters of the Flood. In the time of Abraham, mercy ceased to plead with the guilty inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot with his wife and two daughters were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. So in the days of Christ. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation: "Your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Looking down to the last days, the same Infinite Power declares, concerning those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved": "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love. {GC 431.1}
There is cause and effect in action. Men reject God and long and persistent enough, as GC36 says, God withdraws and lets men have what they want, which will be death.

You blow off the idea that God did not want Israel to fight as shown in the Bible and EGW. Perhaps it is your association with the military that has blinded you? I don't know your background. It is hard to find that our human ways are so contrary to God's law, when it is so accepted by human law.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:44 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
So I guess it comes down to this, if you believe you are correct that execution of Justice is murder, then you do not agree with the writtings of Ellen White, and this will drive you away from the church.

I fear for you.


"Actually, it is Ellen that says God is not the executioner".


That is a lie. You are misquoting God's messenger.

She said "We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy (In this life). It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance (past probation), that restraint is removed. (AFTER PROBATION, BEFORE THE DEATH OF THE WICKED) God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." {GC 36.1}

This quote is specifically for the end of probation in this life. But what about those who after probation are still alive when He returns or at the seocnd resurrection? They are slain by the wrath of the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

"At the coming of Christ the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the city of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. ... The land shall be utterly emptied and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word ... because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned.” Isaiah 24:1, 3, 5, 6. {HF 397.2}

"For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions (close of probation); the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. “The Lord hath a controversy with the nations”; “He will give them that are wicked to the sword.” {Mar 296.2}
The mark of deliverance has been set upon those “that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done.” Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel’s vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary.” Says the prophet: “They began at the ancient men which were before the house.” Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {Mar 296.3}
“The Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” Isaiah 26:21.... In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God’s unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth—priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. “And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried.” Jeremiah 25:33. {Mar 296.4}

This quote says like I have been saying all along that there is two elements to the destruction of the wicked, the tumult of their "mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God’s unmingled wrath".

APL You have outright neglected every quote using direct statements that God does execute judgment. So in essence you do not see harmony between the statements that you missapply to God's impotence and the other quotes that directly say Jesus is both the lamb of God and the Lion of Judah. You mocked me saying "Yeah, lets fear the wrath of the lamb" and when I proved through the testimonies that He is also the Lion of Judah to the impenatent, you don't even look at it, like you are wilfully blinded to those statements. I have seen this before so much in the church.

"I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, “It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years.” {EW 52.1}

APL you are so convicted that you are correct, there is no hope for you on this subject.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:50 AM

Here is a warning directly for you APL, and everyone else who thinks they are being led by God to teach lies...

"Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel’s vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary.” “They began at the ancient men which were before the house,” those who professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. Ezekiel 9:6. {HF 396.4}
False watchmen are the first to fall. “The Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” “A great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.” Isaiah 26:21; Zechariah 14:13. {HF 396.5}
In the mad strife of their own fierce passions and by the outpouring of God’s unmingled wrath, fall wicked priests, rulers, and people. “And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other.” Jeremiah 25:33. {HF 397.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:01 AM

And what about the plagues? Are you saying that they are poured out by demons? You need to repent APL.

"And “the rivers and fountains of waters ... became blood.” Terrible as these inflictions are, God’s justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: “Thou art righteous, O Lord, ... because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy” (Revelation 16:2-6). By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands.—The Great Controversy, 628 (1911). {LDE 245.2}

If you look carefully at this ONE statement you would see how they destroy themselves by condemning God's people but it is executed by the righteous angels.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:08 AM

Here is another perfect quote to prove God executes the judgment...

"To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God’s presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroyed “with the brightness of His coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:11 AM

How can you possibly look at this quote and not see the ballance between the statements? In all humillity, in the name of Jesus, APL you need to repent of teaching a lie about the character of God. In everything God is telling me, what you are doing is the worst thing you could do claiming to be in the service of God.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:12 AM

The firey pillar was safety to the People of God, but it was terror to the wicked. You need to see this now or you will SEE IT later.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:17 AM

"When the destroying angel was about to pass through the land of Egypt, and smite the first-born of both man and beast, the Israelites were directed to bring their children into the house with them, and to strike the door-post with blood, and none were to go out of the house; for all that were found among the Egyptians would be destroyed with them. Suppose an Israelite had neglected to place the sign of blood upon his door, saying that the angel of God would be able to distinguish between the Hebrews and the Egyptians; would the heavenly sentinels have stood to guard that dwelling? We should take this lesson to ourselves. Again the destroying angel is to pass through the land. There is to be a mark placed upon God’s people, and that mark is the keeping of his holy Sabbath. We are not to follow our own will and judgment, and flatter ourselves that God will come to our terms. God tests our faith by giving us some part to act in connection with his interposition in our behalf. To those who comply with the conditions, his promises will be fulfilled; but all that venture to depart from his instructions, to follow a way of their own choosing, will perish with the wicked when his judgments are visited upon the earth. {HS 217.1}

But of course you would say that the destroying angel is Satan wouldn't you?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:20 AM

"It was Christ, “the Angel of the covenant,” who had revealed Himself to Jacob. The patriarch was now disabled and suffering the keenest pain, but he would not loosen his hold. All penitent and broken, he clung to the Angel; “he wept, and made supplication” (Hosea 12:4), pleading for a blessing. He must have the assurance that his sin was pardoned. Physical pain was not sufficient to divert his mind from this object. His determination grew stronger, his faith more earnest and persevering, until the very last. The Angel tried to release Himself; He urged, “Let Me go, for the day breaketh;” but Jacob answered, “I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me.” Had this been a boastful, presumptuous confidence, Jacob would have been instantly destroyed; but his was the assurance of one who confesses his own unworthiness, yet trusts the faithfulness of a covenant-keeping God. {PP 196.3}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:22 AM

Again I will say in the name of the Lord, you do not understand the glory of the Lord, who is to the penitent a covering of safety and to the wicked a consuming fire.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:30 AM

And again proof that what you are doing is the will of, and under the infuence of Satan.

"Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. {DA 21.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
And again proof that what you are doing is the will of, and under the infuence of Satan.

"Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. {DA 21.3}


Yep. That is what I see most doing...

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:23 AM

Satan took what was righteous and presented it as wicked. That was the argument he used in heaven and the one he uses today through you.

So here is God, a consuming fire to wickedness, and there is Satan saying that God is a tyrant because He is a consuming fire to sin. You don't see where this argument lies in the grand scope of the matter?

The fact is "God is a consuming fire to sin". Can you see the righteousness of this? Or do you continue as satan did to accuse God of being unjust for destroying those who refuse to repent? Satan took that fact and distorted it to be a sin of God's to be the judge of righteousness. It is the ultimate insult to God for what you are advocating. This is why He motivated me to write these things.

The very fact that we are having this debate and you have been given every oportunity to repent of your teachings proves the inconsistancies of your faith.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:29 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
"When the destroying angel was about to pass through the land of Egypt, and smite the first-born of both man and beast, the Israelites were directed to bring their children into the house with them, and to strike the door-post with blood, and none were to go out of the house; for all that were found among the Egyptians would be destroyed with them. Suppose an Israelite had neglected to place the sign of blood upon his door, saying that the angel of God would be able to distinguish between the Hebrews and the Egyptians; would the heavenly sentinels have stood to guard that dwelling? We should take this lesson to ourselves. Again the destroying angel is to pass through the land. There is to be a mark placed upon God’s people, and that mark is the keeping of his holy Sabbath. We are not to follow our own will and judgment, and flatter ourselves that God will come to our terms. God tests our faith by giving us some part to act in connection with his interposition in our behalf. To those who comply with the conditions, his promises will be fulfilled; but all that venture to depart from his instructions, to follow a way of their own choosing, will perish with the wicked when his judgments are visited upon the earth. {HS 217.1}

But of course you would say that the destroying angel is Satan wouldn't you?


"1SP 200 "There were quite a number of the Egyptians who were led to acknowledge, by the manifestations of the signs and wonders shown in Egypt, that the God of the Hebrews was the only true God. They entreated to be permitted to come to the houses of the Israelites with their families upon that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians."


Great Controversy page 614 A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere."


It's in plain English --
Yes, evil angels destroy when God permits,
BUT Holy angels of God also destroy when God commands.

It was a HOLY ANGEL OF GOD who slayed the first born of Egypt.
It was the angel of the Lord bringing punishment upon David for
"David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem."



And I agree with James, it is a serious thing to ascribe God's judgments and say it is satan's doing.
It's what people did during the Korah rebellion, and we are told that by ascribing the obvious supernatural acts of God as being the work of Satan, those people "sealed their doom:.


PP 404 " Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom."

Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:51 AM

Amen, thank you Jesus for the support of a Sister. Amen.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
PP 404 " Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom."


Wow. I'm glad I'm not in APL's, kland's, or Tom's shoes about now--or Johann's or Gregory's either. Fortunately, God is merciful. If they turn about, confess their wrongs, and accept Christ and His truth, there is still hope, just as some who crucified Christ later repented and were accepted of God.

No one wants to seal his or her doom. But why do so many treat the matter so lightly--as if it did not matter what he or she believed or expressed? This is simply an amazement to me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 05:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: dedication
PP 404 " Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom."


Wow. I'm glad I'm not in APL's, kland's, or Tom's shoes about now--or Johann's or Gregory's either. Fortunately, God is merciful. If they turn about, confess their wrongs, and accept Christ and His truth, there is still hope, just as some who crucified Christ later repented and were accepted of God.

No one wants to seal his or her doom. But why do so many treat the matter so lightly--as if it did not matter what he or she believed or expressed? This is simply an amazement to me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Perhaps you should read Luke 18...

What was the cause of Korah's death?

In the rebellion of Korah is seen the working out, upon a narrower stage, of the same spirit that led to the rebellion of Satan in heaven. It was pride and ambition that prompted Lucifer to complain of the government of God, and to seek the overthrow of the order which had been established in heaven. Since his fall it has been his object to infuse the same spirit of envy and discontent, the same ambition for position and honor, into the minds of men. He thus worked upon the minds of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, to arouse the desire for self-exaltation and excite envy, distrust, and rebellion. Satan caused them to reject God as their leader, by rejecting the men of God's appointment. Yet while in their murmuring against Moses and Aaron they blasphemed God, they were so deluded as to think themselves righteous, and to regard those who had faithfully reproved their sins as actuated by Satan. {PP 403.3}

Do not the same evils still exist that lay at the foundation of Korah's ruin? Pride and ambition are widespread; and when these are cherished, they open the door to envy, and a striving for supremacy; the soul is alienated from God, and unconsciously drawn into the ranks of Satan. Like Korah and his companions, many, even of the professed followers of Christ, are thinking, planning, and working so eagerly for self-exaltation that in order to gain the sympathy and support of the people they are ready to pervert the truth, falsifying and misrepresenting the Lord's servants, and even charging them with the base and selfish motives that inspire their own hearts. By persistently reiterating falsehood, and that against all evidence, they at last come to believe it to be truth. While endeavoring to destroy the confidence of the people in the men of God's appointment, they really believe that they are engaged in a good work, verily doing God service. {PP 403.4}

The Hebrews were not willing to submit to the directions and restrictions of the Lord. They were restless under restraint, and unwilling to receive reproof. This was the secret of their murmuring against Moses. Had they been left free to do as they pleased, there would have been fewer complaints against their leader. All through the history of the church God's servants have had the same spirit to meet. {PP 404.1}

It is by sinful indulgence that men give Satan access to their minds, and they go from one stage of wickedness to another. The rejection of light darkens the mind and hardens the heart, so that it is easier for them to take the next step in sin and to reject still clearer light, until at last their habits of wrongdoing become fixed. Sin ceases to appear sinful to them. He who faithfully preaches God's word, thereby condemning their sins, too often incurs their hatred. Unwilling to endure the pain and sacrifice necessary to reform, they turn upon the Lord's servant and denounce his reproofs as uncalled for and severe. Like Korah, they declare that the people are not at fault; it is the reprover that causes all the trouble. And soothing their consciences with this deception, the jealous and disaffected combine to sow discord in the church and weaken the hands of those who would build it up. {PP 404.2}

Every advance made by those whom God has called to lead in His work has excited suspicion; every act has been misrepresented by the jealous and faultfinding. Thus it was in the time of Luther, of the Wesleys and other reformers. Thus it is today. {PP 404.3}

Korah would not have taken the course he did had he known that all the directions and reproofs communicated to Israel were from God. But he might have known this. God had given overwhelming evidence that He was leading Israel. But Korah and his companions rejected light until they became so blinded that the most striking manifestations of His power were not sufficient to convince them; they attributed them all to human or satanic agency. The same thing was done by the people, who the day after the destruction of Korah and his company came to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Ye have killed the people of the Lord." Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, a sin by which man's heart is effectually hardened against the influence of divine grace. "Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man," said Christ, "it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him." Matthew 12:32. These words were spoken by our Saviour when the gracious works which He had performed through the power of God were attributed by the Jews to Beelzebub. It is through the agency of the Holy Spirit that God communicates with man; and those who deliberately reject this agency as satanic, have cut off the channel of communication between the soul and Heaven. {PP 404.4}

God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17) is the divine command. Then "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26, 27. {PP 405.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 06:03 PM

APL,

You are speaking as David before Nathan--little realizing of whom you speak. Pride certainly does cause a rejection of truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You are speaking as David before Nathan--little realizing of whom you speak. Pride certainly does cause a rejection of truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


They why are you rejecting the truth? Hosea 4:17.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:01 PM

GC, I agree. APL is convinced he is right. No matter how plainly it is stated he will interpret it to mean - Jesus withdraws His restraining hand and permits sin, nature, evil men, or evil angels to punish sinners. Nothing we say or quote will persuade him otherwise. He dares to attribute to Satan the "strange work" of Jesus. I don't think it is a salvation issue for him. He seems like a good Christian.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, I agree. APL is convinced he is right. No matter how plainly it is stated he will interpret it to mean - Jesus withdraws His restraining hand and permits sin, nature, evil men, or evil angels to punish sinners. Nothing we say or quote will persuade him otherwise. He dares to attribute to Satan the "strange work" of Jesus. I don't think it is a salvation issue for him. He seems like a good Christian.


mm - did you actually read what EGW wrote on Korah? Did you get the final paragraph??? It is exactly the same as in GC36! Hosea 4:17, leave him alone. Give them up, let them go. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:28 PM

God may well have given you up to your own understanding and pride, APL. There's not a bit of teachableness left in you on this subject that I can see, and perhaps it is a bit of an indicator for all else as well.

You refuse to see the light. You are consistently unable to answer some straight questions, and use worldly-wise "smart" techniques of dodging the question, asking your own question in place of answering what was asked, or any number of logical fallacies which have apparently convinced you but will not convince me--for they are not Biblical.

This thread is a waste of time for every participant in it, unfortunately. It may well be that this forum itself is a waste of time for some of us. Many posting here have no inclination to accept truth when they see it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God may well have given you up to your own understanding and pride, APL. There's not a bit of teachableness left in you on this subject that I can see, and perhaps it is a bit of an indicator for all else as well.

You refuse to see the light. You are consistently unable to answer some straight questions, and use worldly-wise "smart" techniques of dodging the question, asking your own question in place of answering what was asked, or any number of logical fallacies which have apparently convinced you but will not convince me--for they are not Biblical.

This thread is a waste of time for every participant in it, unfortunately. It may well be that this forum itself is a waste of time for some of us. Many posting here have no inclination to accept truth when they see it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Have you ever considered that thought that perhaps it is you that is wrong? That it is your pride that has blocked you seeing God, AS HE IS? It is not my job to convince you! That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 08:13 PM

The Holy Spirit speaks through God's Word. I'm listening to that. God's Word tells us plainly that God will punish. If you don't believe the Bible and Jesus....

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. (Isaiah 24:21)

For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:21)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all [them which are] circumcised with the uncircumcised; (Jeremiah 9:25)

But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD: and I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it. (Jeremiah 21:14)

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The Bible's word on this subject should be sufficient for every true disciple of Christ to properly understand the answer to this topic that has had literally thousands of posts now, with so much misunderstanding.

God must weep.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:02 PM

What is interesting is that you reject the picture of God that Christ, in His life on this earth, came to reveal? Why? You say we learn little of the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth. That is the most remarkable thing to me.

God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

The Lord is constantly at work to open the understanding, to quicken the perceptions, that man may have a right sense of sin and of the far-reaching claims of God's law. The unconverted man thinks of God as unloving, as severe, and even revengeful; His presence is thought to be a constant restraint, His character an expression of "Thou shalt not." His service is regarded as full of gloom and hard requirements. But when Jesus is seen upon the cross, as the gift of God because He loved man, the eyes are opened to see things in a new light. God as revealed in Christ is not a severe judge, an avenging tyrant, but a merciful and loving Father. {1SM 183.2}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
You say we learn little of the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth. That is the most remarkable thing to me.


The Bible is a very remarkable thing to you, isn't it?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


Let's see...how many books in the Bible do we have that were written on the life of Christ? So how much did we "learn?"

Your error is in thinking you know more than you do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You say we learn little of the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth. That is the most remarkable thing to me.


The Bible is a very remarkable thing to you, isn't it?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.




Let's see...how many books in the Bible do we have that were written on the life of Christ? So how much did we "learn?"

Your error is in thinking you know more than you do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

"The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." John 1:14. {8T 286.5}

"Unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world,'' He said, "I manifested Thy name," "that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them." John 17:6, A. R. V., 26. {8T 286.6}

"Love your enemies," He bade them; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44, 45; Luke 6:35, 36. {8T 286.7}

Oh that we could be like Him...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.



Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad.

Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 09:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.



Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad.

Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life."


Green - are you rejecting what EGW has written? You quote EGW then ridicule the thought given. Why?

John 17:3-6 KJV And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

The "NAME" is the "CHARACTER" of God. What is what Jesus revealed. Why do you reject what Jesus has shown of the character of God?

By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto. {DA 19.2}


It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}

The light of the Sun of Righteousness is to shine forth in good works--in words of truth and deeds of holiness. {COL 416.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/02/14 11:12 PM

APL, I hate to say it, but GC is right - you have repeatedly refused to directly answer questions. You believe Jesus casting resurrected sinners alive in the lake of fire must be interpreted to mean - Jesus withdraws His protection and permits sin to run its natural course. You also insist every inspired passage that describes Jesus punishing sinners must be interpreted similarly. While the withdraw and permit principle of punishment is one way Jesus employs, it is not, however, the only way. You refuse to believe it. So be it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, I hate to say it, but GC is right - you have repeatedly refused to directly answer questions. You believe Jesus casting resurrected sinners alive in the lake of fire must be interpreted to mean - Jesus withdraws His protection and permits sin to run its natural course. You also insist every inspired passage that describes Jesus punishing sinners must be interpreted similarly. While the withdraw and permit principle of punishment is one way Jesus employs, it is not, however, the only way. You refuse to believe it. So be it.

You also have questions you have not answered. For example, how is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire? I have made the observation about the fire of Nadab and Abihu did not burn their clothes. Interesting fire, would you not agree? That's OK, you don't need to answer.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 07:26 AM

My internet was spotty, and I didn't even realize any part of that post had been submitted. I had written more, and now that I have internet again, let me repost it:

Quote:
Originally Posted By: APL


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.



Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad.

Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life." Jesus' character is shown us through all of Creation, in addition to the many acts of love and mercy poured out from all of Heaven in our behalf.

But, no, APL would prefer his comfortable blinders--to shut out any additional light that he might not wish to see and which appears to his vision to have not been shown us through Jesus' life incarnate on earth.

I wish to banish such blinders.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 08:35 AM

Amazes me how anyone can read the story of Korah, Dathan and their followers and believe everything that happened was just a "natural result" of God withdrawing his protection.

Just outline the many uprisings of rebellion that are met with punishment during that short space of time.

-- earth swallows three leaders
-- And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
-- a plague wipes out 14,700 and only Aaron's actions stops the plague.
--
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Amazes me how anyone can read the story of Korah, Dathan and their followers and believe everything that happened was just a "natural result" of God withdrawing his protection.

Just outline the many uprisings of rebellion that are met with punishment during that short space of time.

-- earth swallows three leaders
-- And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
-- a plague wipes out 14,700 and only Aaron's actions stops the plague.
--


As EGW says: "God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17) is the divine command."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
My internet was spotty, and I didn't even realize any part of that post had been submitted. I had written more, and now that I have internet again, let me repost it:

Quote:
Originally Posted By: APL


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.



Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad.

Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life." Jesus' character is shown us through all of Creation, in addition to the many acts of love and mercy poured out from all of Heaven in our behalf.

But, no, APL would prefer his comfortable blinders--to shut out any additional light that he might not wish to see and which appears to his vision to have not been shown us through Jesus' life incarnate on earth.

I wish to banish such blinders.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Again - you are not arguing with me, this is EGW's statement. Do you reject the her testimony?????
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, I hate to say it, but GC is right - you have repeatedly refused to directly answer questions. You believe Jesus casting resurrected sinners alive in the lake of fire must be interpreted to mean - Jesus withdraws His protection and permits sin to run its natural course. You also insist every inspired passage that describes Jesus punishing sinners must be interpreted similarly. While the withdraw and permit principle of punishment is one way Jesus employs, it is not, however, the only way. You refuse to believe it. So be it.

A: You also have questions you have not answered.

This is the first time you have admitted to not answering questions. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: APL
For example, how is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire?

The absence of sinners means the absence of death and hell. No sinners = no death, no hell. Death and hell will perish with sinners in the lake of fire.

Originally Posted By: APL
I have made the observation about the fire of Nadab and Abihu did not burn their clothes. Interesting fire, would you not agree? That's OK, you don't need to answer.

The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. He managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/03/14 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome.
There is no free will...
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:00 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
What is interesting is that you reject the picture of God that Christ, in His life on this earth, came to reveal? Why? You say we learn little of the character of God from the life of Christ on this earth. That is the most remarkable thing to me.


The most remarkable thing to me is that you can read the direct words of scriptural truth and reject the message. I am fully convicted that you are not here to support the SDA church. How could anyone say what you just said if they know scripture?

How was Jesus manifested before He became a man? The Pillar of Fire which destroyed the wicked and was safety to the penitent, the burning bush and a glorious warrior. Jesus manifested Himself to sinners and to the righteous for thousands of years in the most righteously fearful way while calling men to repentance.

Then He came in the flesh to win their hearts to the mercy of the Father, but even then He was not averse to manifesting the righteous indignation of the Father...

"Slowly descending the steps, and raising the scourge of cords gathered up on entering the enclosure, He bids the bargaining company depart from the precincts of the temple. With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers. The coin falls, ringing sharply upon the marble pavement. None presume to question His authority. None dare stop to gather up their ill-gotten gain. Jesus does not smite them with the whip of cords, but in His hand that simple scourge seems terrible as a flaming sword. Officers of the temple, speculating priests, brokers and cattle traders, with their sheep and oxen, rush from the place, with the one thought of escaping from the condemnation of His presence. {DA 158.2}
A panic sweeps over the multitude, who feel the overshadowing of His divinity. Cries of terror escape from hundreds of blanched lips. Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor. They remember that it is written of Him, “The zeal of Thine house hath eaten Me up.” Psalm 69:9. (like all of those who truly love Him) Soon the tumultuous throng with their merchandise are far removed from the temple of the Lord. The courts are free from unholy traffic, and a deep silence and solemnity settles upon the scene of confusion. The presence of the Lord, that of old sanctified the mount, has now made sacred the temple reared in His honor. {DA 158.3}
In the cleansing of the temple, Jesus was announcing His mission as the Messiah, and entering upon His work. That temple, erected for the abode of the divine Presence, was designed to be an object lesson for Israel and for the world. From eternal ages it was God’s purpose that every created being, from the bright and holy seraph to man, should be a temple for the indwelling of the Creator. Because of sin, humanity ceased to be a temple for God. Darkened and defiled by evil, the heart of man no longer revealed the glory of the Divine One. But by the incarnation of the Son of God, the purpose of Heaven is fulfilled. God dwells in humanity, and through saving grace the heart of man becomes again His temple. God designed that the temple at Jerusalem should be a continual witness to the high destiny open to every soul. But the Jews had not understood the significance of the building they regarded with so much pride. They did not yield themselves as holy temples for the Divine Spirit. The courts of the temple at Jerusalem, filled with the tumult of unholy traffic, represented all too truly the temple of the heart, defiled by the presence of sensual passion and unholy thoughts. In cleansing the temple from the world’s buyers and sellers, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from the defilement of sin,—from the earthly desires, the selfish lusts, the evil habits, that corrupt the soul. “The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver.” Malachi 3:1-3. {DA 161.1}
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17. No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. But He will not force an entrance. He comes not into the heart as to the temple of old; but He says, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him.” Revelation 3:20. He will come, not for one day merely; for He says, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; ... and they shall be My people.” “He will subdue our iniquities; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.” 2 Corinthians 6:16; Micah 7:19. His presence will cleanse and sanctify the soul, so that it may be a holy temple unto the Lord, and “an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:21, 22. {DA 161.2}
Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts. In their flight they met others on their way to the temple, and bade them turn back, telling them what they had seen and heard. Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. In this scene He saw symbolized the dispersion of the whole Jewish nation for their wickedness and impenitence. {DA 162.1}
And why did the priests flee from the temple? Why did they not stand their ground? He who commanded them to go was a carpenter’s son, a poor Galilean, without earthly rank or power. Why did they not resist Him? Why did they leave the gain so ill acquired, and flee at the command of One whose outward appearance was so humble? {DA 162.2}
Christ spoke with the authority of a king, and in His appearance, and in the tones of His voice, there was that which they had no power to resist. At the word of command they realized, as they had never realized before, their true position as hypocrites and robbers. When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ’s countenance; they realized the import of His words. They felt as if before the throne of the eternal Judge, with their sentence passed on them for time and for eternity. For a time they were convinced that Christ was a prophet; and many believed Him to be the Messiah. The Holy Spirit flashed into their minds the utterances of the prophets concerning Christ. Would they yield to this conviction? {DA 162.3}

Listen up. Jesus hates the fact that sinners must be destroyed. He cries over every lost soul. But He is nonetheless enraged over men taking posession of their own hearts in defiance of His law.

Jesus came to the temple in anger because they had taken what was orriginally designed for righteous service and turned it into an example of their fallen hearts.

The point that I must continually reitterate with you APL is that Jesus is the Lamb to the penitent, but He is the Lion to the wicked.

You prove over and over that you do not know the glory of the Lord. Every word you print for others to read is a testimony to your ignorance of God's true character.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:08 AM

Either we allow the righteous fire of God to enter our hearts here to purge us from sin, or He will appear suddenly to our hearts at His second coming and we will be destroyed by that glory.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome.
There is no free will...


This is the exact argument Satan used against God's righteous indignation.

"But after the Fall, Satan bade his angels make a special effort to inculcate the belief in man’s natural immortality; and having induced the people to receive this error, they were to lead them on to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction. {DD 15.2}

Of course Satan would have you read this like it supports your theory, but you are wrong and you should repent, but God has told me you wil NEVER repent for misrepresenting God's character.

I truly fear for you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. He managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.

A: There is no free will...

What do you mean? Nature doesn't have freewill. Jesus uses it to punish sinners. He doesn't violate freewill when He chooses to punish sinners.

Quote:
As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1}

Again, nature is not self-acting.

Quote:
In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {CCh 324.4}

You have ignored these kinds of passages. And no wonder - they completely contradict your view.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:46 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
My internet was spotty, and I didn't even realize any part of that post had been submitted. I had written more, and now that I have internet again, let me repost it:

Quote:
Originally Posted By: APL


All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.



Perhaps APL's Jesus was not "alive" before His incarnation, nor after His ascension to Heaven. So sad.

Note that "character" is mentioned alongside of "life." Jesus' character is shown us through all of Creation, in addition to the many acts of love and mercy poured out from all of Heaven in our behalf.

But, no, APL would prefer his comfortable blinders--to shut out any additional light that he might not wish to see and which appears to his vision to have not been shown us through Jesus' life incarnate on earth.

I wish to banish such blinders.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Again - you are not arguing with me, this is EGW's statement. Do you reject the her testimony?????


No -- I don't see him arguing against the statement but rather the interpretation that narrows that statement down to Christ's 33 years as a human on earth.

Interesting text:
Notice the caution built into this text. “Search the Scriptures;” Jesus says, “for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of Me.” (John 5:39).

What is Jesus talking about?
He is speaking of the OT --
His audience knew the scriptures but had missed the central theme in those OT scriptures --

Christ was revealing Himself through those scriptures. He was God manifest from the beginning of earth's history. It was Jesus Christ Who spoke to Adam and Eve, it was Christ Who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. It was Christ in that pillar of cloud and pillar of fire leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

When Christ came to earth He showed in a powerful way the love and mercy of God and the utmost desire that human beings be saved.

Yet, we have more pictures of Christ when He comes to execute justice -- "that thou (Jesus) shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:58 AM

dedication - my "narrow" interpretation of the reference is not based on that reference alone. There are numerous! One I have quoted from before, is ST January 20, 1890, "God Made Manifest in Christ". Under yours and MM's, and asygo's and green's, this would be all eternity, not His life on earth. But the this reference is specifically His life on earth! I quote:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}


Back up and we find more about this mission.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}
...
That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery. He whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, whose dominion endureth throughout all generations, made himself to be sin for us that he might lift up all that are bowed down, and give life to those who are ready to perish. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 8}

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}


When is this reference speaking about a revelation of God? Christ life on this earth, as a man! Oh that we could open our minds to know God as He is revealed in His Son!!! Yes, Christ is revealed in the scriptures. And Christ life on earth unlocks the scriptures and gives us the true understanding. The disciples on the road to Emmaus knew the scriptures. Christ unlocked them. There are many impressions of God that one gets from the OT. Christ is the key that unlocks them. As EGW says, "Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!" She is speaking of His life on EARTH.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:00 AM

Has anyone here heard of the Lord anointing Jehu?

2 Kings 9:6 "Jehu got up and went into the house. Then the prophet poured the oil on Jehu’s head and declared, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anoint you king over the Lord’s people Israel. 7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the Lord’s servants shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free. 9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah. 10 As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and no one will bury her.’” Then he opened the door and ran."

18 Then Jehu brought all the people together and said to them, “Ahab served Baal a little; Jehu will serve him much. (this was a deception) 19 Now summon all the prophets of Baal, all his servants and all his priests. See that no one is missing, because I am going to hold a great sacrifice for Baal. Anyone who fails to come will no longer live.” But Jehu was acting deceptively in order to destroy the servants of Baal.

20 Jehu said, “Call an assembly in honor of Baal.” So they proclaimed it. 21 Then he sent word throughout Israel, and all the servants of Baal came; not one stayed away. They crowded into the temple of Baal until it was full from one end to the other. 22 And Jehu said to the keeper of the wardrobe, “Bring robes for all the servants of Baal.” So he brought out robes for them.

23 Then Jehu and Jehonadab son of Rekab went into the temple of Baal. Jehu said to the servants of Baal, “Look around and see that no one who serves the Lord is here with you—only servants of Baal.” 24 So they went in to make sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had posted eighty men outside with this warning: “If one of you lets any of the men I am placing in your hands escape, it will be your life for his life.”

25 As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: “Go in and kill them; let no one escape.” So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal. 26 They brought the sacred stone out of the temple of Baal and burned it. 27 They demolished the sacred stone of Baal and tore down the temple of Baal, and people have used it for a latrine to this day.

30 The Lord said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation.”

This was a command directly from the mouth of God through the prophet Elijah.

Was it wrong for God to have Jehu lie about offering sacrifice to Baal? Was it wrong for God to use the meeting of the priests to slay them? Was it wrong for God to command for them to be killed?

You make it sound as if God didn't want His people to kill others for Him, yet here is a direct command from God through Elijah, a Holy man of God, to KILL all of the priests and followers of Baal. Are you saying God is evil for this APL?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
Amazes me how anyone can read the story of Korah, Dathan and their followers and believe everything that happened was just a "natural result" of God withdrawing his protection.

Just outline the many uprisings of rebellion that are met with punishment during that short space of time.

-- earth swallows three leaders
-- And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
-- a plague wipes out 14,700 and only Aaron's actions stops the plague.
--


As EGW says: "God works by the manifestation of His Spirit to reprove and convict the sinner; and if the Spirit's work is finally rejected, there is no more that God can do for the soul. The last resource of divine mercy has been employed. The transgressor has cut himself off from God, and sin has no remedy to cure itself. There is no reserved power by which God can work to convict and convert the sinner. "Let him alone" (Hosea 4:17) is the divine command."


The "let him alone" means the Holy Spirit no longer pleads. But God wasn't about to "let Israel alone" in the scene under discussion. There was too much at stake.

God worked to restore a nation through which He would bless the whole world, and the only way to do it was to cull out those who were bending all their energies to turn that nation away from God.

It wasn't satan's plan to get rid of his most dedicated men in subverting God's plans for Israel.
To even insinuate Satan was standing by, ready to destroy his own men that were doing such a wonderful job of turning the people against God and His prophet, and to do it at the precise moment to vindicate God, and thus help cleanse Israel is blasphemy.

Quote:
Numbers 16:19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them (against Moses and Aaron) unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the congregation.
16:20 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
16:22 And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be wroth with all the congregation?
16:23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
16:24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
16:25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
16:26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
16:27 So they departed from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD has not sent me.
16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that belongs unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD
.
16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all their goods.
16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
16:36 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
16:37 Speak unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning, and scatter thou the fire yonder; for they are hallowed.
16:38 The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates [for] a covering of the altar: for they offered them before the LORD, therefore they are hallowed: and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel.
16:39 And Eleazar the priest took the brazen censers, wherewith they that were burnt had offered; and they were made broad [plates for] a covering of the altar:
16:40 [To be] a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which [is] not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
16:41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.

16:42 And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.
16:43 And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.
16:44 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
16:45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.
16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
16:47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
16:48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.
16:49 Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.
16:50 And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.



Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:15 AM

This is how this issue is perfectly answered but APL will not hear it, which proves APL does is not motivated by the Spirit of Truth...

"John saw the mercy, the tenderness, and the love of God blending with His holiness, justice, and power. He saw sinners finding a Father in Him of whom their sins had made them afraid."

Do you see? It is sin that causes men to be affraid of God because of His wrath against sin! He is loving and gentile, but when sin enters our hearts He is a consuming fire. Continuing...

"And looking beyond the culmination of the great conflict, he beheld upon Zion “them that had gotten the victory ... stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God,” and singing “the song of Moses” and the Lamb. Revelation 15:2, 3. {AA 589.1}
The Saviour is presented before John under the symbols of “the Lion of the tribe of Judah” and of “a Lamb as it had been slain.” Revelation 5:5, 6. These symbols represent the union of omnipotent power and self-sacrificing love. The Lion of Judah, so terrible to the rejectors of His grace, will be the Lamb of God to the obedient and faithful. The pillar of fire that speaks terror and wrath to the transgressor of God’s law is a token of light and mercy and deliverance to those who have kept His commandments. The arm strong to smite the rebellious will be strong to deliver the loyal. Everyone who is faithful will be saved. “He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:31. {AA 589.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:37 AM

Why was Adam affraid after he ate the fruit? Satan hadn't had the time to teach Adam of any lies about God's destruction of the wicked. The only thing he had taught Adam was that he would not surely die but would become like God.

So if Adam had not been given opportunity to be lied to about the wrath of God then why was Adam affraid?

"The Christian world in this age are inclined to accept the sophistries of Satan in the place of the words of God. Many have separated themselves from God by wicked works, and they love not to behold God or to retain Him in their knowledge. They do not want to see God any more than did Adam when he hid himself from the approach of his heavenly Father..." {FH 191.3}

At the second coming the same effect motivates the wicked who hide from the wrath of the Lamb.

"The earth trembled before Him, the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Those who a short time before would have destroyed God’s faithful children from the earth, now witnessed the glory of God which rested upon them. And amid all their terror they heard the voices of the saints in joyful strains, saying, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us.” {EW 286.2}

When men reach a certain point, like decreeing the destruction of God's people, they cross the line of God's forebearance and He is no longer responsible for their outcome, they are not shielded from His wrath and they are slaughtered by His appearing. This is a natural fear of righteousness to every sinner.

The wicked do not care to be softened by God's grace. They harden their hearts against God's reproof and they do not gain any benefits from His teachings. The righteous see the signs that they are doomed to destruction by God's wrath and they repent.

So the issue is, FEAR GOD and give glory to Him, realize His hatred of sin, or do not and see the wrath of the Lamb.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:43 AM

Oh jsot - why did not stop on verse 30, quoting the NIV I might add?

2 Kings 10:31 AKJV But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.

And jsot - you should take note of EGW writing directly to you! " If we would enter into the joy of our Lord, we must be colaborers with Him. With the love of Jesus warm in our hearts, we shall always see some way to reach the minds and hearts of others. It will make us unselfish, thoughtful, and kind; and kindness opens the door of hearts; gentleness is mightier far than a Jehu spirit."

So go ahead, emulate Jehu, but you will be wrong in doing so.

"By their fruits ye shall know them." Christ has not been revealed in your deportment toward some who were much nearer the kingdom of heaven than yourselves. The Lord has opened before you your wrong toward His children--your want of mercy and love, your determination to control minds and make them see things just as you see them. And when light came to you, what course did you take? Did you merely admit that you were wrong, or did you heartily confess your error and humble your proud hearts before God? Did you cast aside your ways and accept God's teachings? Did you go to the very ones you had bruised and wounded, and say: "I have been wrong; I have sinned against you. Forgive me. I have failed; I have worked in my own spirit. I had a zeal, but not according to knowledge. It was the spirit of Jehu, rather than the meekness and lowliness of Christ. The word of God directs: 'Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.' Will you pray for me that God will forgive me for the distress and anguish I have caused you?" {5T 342.1}

Do you really want the spirit of Jehu? I think not!

The truth should be presented with divine tact, gentleness, and tenderness. It should come from a heart that has been softened and made sympathetic. We need to have close communion with God, lest self rise up, as it did in Jehu, and we pour forth a torrent of words that are unbefitting, that are not as dew or as the still showers that revive the withering plants. Let our words be gentle as we seek to win souls. God will be wisdom to him who seeks for wisdom from a divine source. We are to seek opportunities on every hand, we are to watch unto prayer, and be ready always to give a reason for the hope that is in us, with meekness and fear. Lest we shall impress unfavorably one soul for whom Christ died we should keep our hearts uplifted to God, so that when the opportunity presents itself, we may have the right word to speak at the right time. If you thus undertake work for God, the Spirit of God will be your helper. The Holy Spirit will apply the word spoken in love for the soul. The truth will have quickening power when spoken under the influence of the grace of Christ. {6T 400.1}

James - Open your eyes, and see God as He is revealed in His Son!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:50 AM

If there is any sin in us, we should be affraid of God.

He did not give us the Spirit of fear, the guilt of sin while witnessing righteousness gave us that fear. The fear of the Lord brings us to repentance.

Sin must be acknowledged, so the BEGINNING of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Every time we sin that fear should be present or we are lost.

Fear of eternal destruction is a motivator to be so perfectly in the will of the Father that no sin exists in our lives; the mercy of the Father to send His Son to die in our place is the bond that motivates us to remain in His Grace.

God allows us to be redeemed from destruction, plucked from the fire, and He does the redemption through His own Son who suffered His wrath for us.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:06 AM

God is so good to me. Thank you Father for the perfect answer to prayer continually.

Look at this quote APL and all who sympathise with his teachings.

"The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: “Affliction shall not rise up the second time.” Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

This quote is saying if God would have destroyed Satan in the beginning it would have brought dishonor to Him, but after the Great Controversy is ended, the destruction of sin and sinners "will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe".

There are many things that you will not allow to have sway in your heart APL, and you are in danger because of teaching lies in God's church, which is His prime delight and cause on earth.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:32 AM

Again APL is using the principles of love, mercy and kindness which are essential to the Christian life, and somehow thinking this proves God's great love could never execute justice --

Somehow he uses God's great love and mercy in opening a way of salvation and doing all to draw people into that way of salvation, as some kind of proof that the rejectors of this love and mercy won't be punished.

"that thou (Jesus) shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: jsot
If there is any sin in us, we should be affraid of God.
Did Jesus come to save us from what God is going to do to us in the end, or to save us from sin? Answer: SIN.

Great Controversy - if Satan had been allowed the natural consequence of sin, he would have died, and it would not have been apparent to the universe that this was the natural result of sin as they were unprepared to understand the nature and consequence of sin. Read the whole chapter in GC in which you quoted. And read PP chapter 1. "Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty. {PP 42.4}" Is it sin's penalty, or God that inflicts the penalty? It is SIN. Sin is the cause of death. Christ came to save us from our sin, not from what God was going to do to us if we don't love Him.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Again APL is using the principles of love, mercy and kindness which are essential to the Christian life, and somehow thinking this proves God's great love could never execute justice --

Somehow he uses God's great love and mercy in opening a way of salvation and doing all to draw people into that way of salvation, as some kind of proof that the rejectors of this love and mercy won't be punished.

"that thou (Jesus) shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18


Again dedication fails to see that sin is the problem, not God, and wrongly represents what I have said all along. Sinners will die! Those that reject the salvation that Christ came to gain for men, will suffer terribly. They most certainly will receive the punishment that sin brings! The question is what is God's roll? God is not the executioner! "But He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1MR 131.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:53 AM

So APL let me get this straight, because of the failure of the messenger we are not supposed to listen to the report?

David sinned a most horrible sin, yet he was the progenetor of the body of Jesus. David's life is a figure of Christ. Should his sin deleat the intent that God had for using David as an example of His first Son?

Jehu was first used by God then he backslid into depravity. This does not deminish the fact that in that day he was used by the Lord to accomplish His will.

The same could be said in the lives of Jones and Waggoner. Two testimonies of men used by God then departing to their own path.

Remember what David did to the messenger of the death of Saul? It is never a good thing to make light of the life of someone bearing God's message. Jehu was ANOINTED by God before falling. Be careful how you jest.

The fact that you even went there proves your divisiveness.

Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:01 AM

james - I quoted EGW about Jehu. You take the issue up with her.

BTW - the evidence is that Waggoner did not apostatize based on the testimony of his daughter. He was disfellowshiped because of his divorce, which was not his choice, but his wife's, and she was not disfellowshiped. But I digress....
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
If there is any sin in us, we should be affraid of God.
Did Jesus come to save us from what God is going to do to us in the end, or to save us from sin? Answer: SIN.

Great Controversy - if Satan had been allowed the natural consequence of sin, he would have died, and it would not have been apparent to the universe that this was the natural result of sin as they were unprepared to understand the nature and consequence of sin. Read the whole chapter in GC in which you quoted. And read PP chapter 1. "Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty. {PP 42.4}" Is it sin's penalty, or God that inflicts the penalty? It is SIN. Sin is the cause of death. Christ came to save us from our sin, not from what God was going to do to us if we don't love Him.


God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever?

He is veiled in and through Christ Jesus.

The veil of the temple that shields men from the glory of the Father was inches thick and through it the image of God in prenincarnate Christ could be seen, filtered so the eyes of men would not be overwhelmed.

In the return of Christ He is coming with His glory and the Glory of the angels and the Father with Him.

Unsheltered by the righteous covering men will painfully disolve in His presence.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

This happens twice for those who fought against ancient Jerusalem and in the last days those who fight against the teaching of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary will also see it fulfilled twice. Once before they die the first death and second in the second death. The glory of the Lord does this to uncovered souls. It is the power of righteousness to destory wickedness, and the mercy of God is seen in His shielding sinners from His wrath all this time.

You do not know the Glory of the Lord, and you should repent from even teaching in authority until you understand.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:18 AM

Quote:
God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever?
YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God!
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:21 AM

The lake of fire happens twice for the end time Beast and it's image. They consume at the second coming and the third coming.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever?
YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God!


You sound as if you have been moved in this response.

I have said the exact same thing over and over. What is a sin? Open rebelion against the law of God. It takes a concience to sin.

Sin is not of itself, it must be accomplished through a person. The sinner is the representative of the sin until repented of.

Sin is destroyed with it's representatives at the end of Atonement. Every unconfessed sin is paid for by the sinner.

So in essence you just agreed with what God has been sharing with me without even realizing it.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:45 AM

We must look to the Atonement to understand the intent of the Father in giving the sanctuary and the sacrifices.

"Some who labor in word and doctrine have not a practical understanding of the law of God and its holy claims, or of the atonement of Christ. They themselves need to be converted before they can convert sinners. {GW92 111.1}

The Atonement demanded death of the sinner, but a sacrifice was made and the sin was transfered to the Mercy seat, and then the record of sin which was building in the most Holy Place was transfered to the head of the scapegoat.

These things must be understood to understand the message of Christ and until you do know these things what would motivate you to teach others?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 09:52 AM

In case you didn't catch it APL, the Atonement is important because the sinner was responsible for the execution of the daily sacrifices. They where to see themselves taking the life of the Son of God to truly benefit from the exercise of faith.

Then the record of sin was cleansed by the High Priest corporately but individually represented.

Everyones heart was supposed to follow the High Priest into the Most Holy Place in their minds and imagine the process in full graphic image of blood splattered on the gold.

The propitiation is what it is all about, and this means sin is transferable to cleanse us. If we do not repent, then the Glory of the Lord destroys the sinner who stands before Him.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 10:04 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever?
YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God!


You sound as if you have been moved in this response.

I have said the exact same thing over and over. What is a sin? Open rebelion against the law of God. It takes a concience to sin.

Sin is not of itself, it must be accomplished through a person. The sinner is the representative of the sin until repented of.

Sin is destroyed with it's representatives at the end of Atonement. Every unconfessed sin is paid for by the sinner.

So in essence you just agreed with what God has been sharing with me without even realizing it.

My position has never changed. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30.

This is the natural consequence of sin! God does not have to inflict the penalty of sin. Other here say sin has no intrinsic consequence. The penalty of sin must be inflicted by God. God has to punish sin. Hogwash. Sin destroys. Sin kills. Sin is the problem, not God.

AS to the nature of sin, Satan is constantly trying to misrepresent this. Sin affects not only humans, but ALL LIFE on this planet.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 10:08 AM

In case you did not catch the significance james, the SINNER caused the death of the sacrifice, not God! Sin killed the Son of God. Sin is the cause of all sickness, disease, and death, not God. Some here do not believe this! They say God inflicts sickness, disease and death. To them, God is the problem! Not sin.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 10:35 AM

God ownes everything. He is fully beyond anything of earth, but He has a Son who became human.

Jesus had to die for us or we would have to die because we have sinned against God. Wages of sin is death. It does not say the wages of sin is banishment from God, because we were born that way until we accept Christ. The wages of sin is judgment and death. There is a judgment and the execution of justice is death.

Our sin takes away His righteous covering and without it we are destroyed in His presence. Adam made covering of figs because of his nakedness. He was afraid of God because he knew the wages of sin was death. The sentence would have been pronounced and executed that day if Jesus had not stood up for Adam.

Adam was condemned to die that day if Jesus had not presnted Himself a sacrifice.

But Adam confessed his sin and it was transfered to the Mercy seat waiting to be put on the head of the scapegoat who will suffer for Adam's sin.

Jesus is the propitiation, He is righteous, so carrying those sins was most intense to His conscience to the point of death. He literally fell dying to the ground of Gethsemane from suffering the wrath of the Father in carying every sin, but He would have been instantaniously destroyed if He stood with His own sins in front of the Wrath of the Father.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:08 PM

The wages of SIN, is death, Romans 6:23. Sin, when IT is full grown, brings forth death, James 1:15. It does not say, the wages of sin is execution by God. Yes, Jesus was dying in Gethsemane, and the Father did not touch Him. On the cross, did Jesus say, my God, why are you torturing Me? My God, my God, why are you burning Me? NO. He said, My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN Me. On the cross, He felt the same agony sinners will feel in the end.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners. He managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.

A: There is no free will...

What do you mean? Nature doesn't have freewill. Jesus uses it to punish sinners. He doesn't violate freewill when He chooses to punish sinners.

Quote:
As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1}

Again, nature is not self-acting.

Quote:
In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {CCh 324.4}

You have ignored these kinds of passages. And no wonder - they completely contradict your view.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
It does not say, the wages of sin is execution by God.

This is yet another issue you have doggedly ignored. Jesus will resurrect sinners, judge them, and then cast them alive in the lake of fire. They will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness and then die the second death. This is not the death Jesus died when He paid our sin debt of death on the cross. Refusing to deal with these truths only weakens your view. You cannot continue to hide from the truth and expect people to take your view seriously. The lake of fire is real. Deal with it. It will be made up of fire rained down from above and fire raised up from below. The same fire that punishes resurrected sinners is the same fire that will rid the earth of its rubble and rubbish. Literal fire - not symbolic.

Originally Posted By: APL
I have made the observation about the fire of Nadab and Abihu did not burn their clothes. Interesting fire, would you not agree?

The three worthy Hebrews also experienced "interesting fire". It burned the ropes that bound them and the guards who tossed them in the fiery furnace but it did not burn them or even leave a trace of smoke on them. Jesus is in control of nature. He manages the outcome. He employs fire and water to punish sinners.

Jesus managed the fire that blazed out from His presence in the most holy place. He managed it in a way that resulted in punishment. So you see, there is nothing "interesting" about the fire Jesus used to kill Nadab and Abihu. He merely managed fire according to His will, His plan, His purpose. Simple as that.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 07:30 PM

Wow!
Shocking news!
The theory that God is not the one who condemns....

Quote:
In his latest revelations, Pope Francis said:


"Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.”
In a shocking speech that is reverberating across the world, Pope Francis declared that:



“All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there? In the past, the church has been harsh on those it deemed morally wrong or sinful. Today, we no longer judge. Like a loving father, we never condemn our children. Our church is big enough for heterosexuals and homosexuals, for the pro-life and the pro-choice! For conservatives and liberals, even communists are welcome and have joined us. We all love and worship the same God.”

http://entertainment.vacancynigerians.com/2013/12/shocking-there-is-no-hell-fire-adam-eve.html
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 08:54 PM

Apparently, it is false:

Snopes
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/04/14 11:54 PM

Yes - I've already been over that article by Francis on another group. Satire. Hopefully dedication did not fall for it! Rome never changes.

As to MM's assertion that I have not acknowledged that God will burn alive sinners, EGW has shown that God is not the executioner. So your interpretation must include that. You refuse include all statements on the end. You do not see how the judgement is Good News!
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Apparently, it is false:

Snopes


You're right -- there was no Vatican III meetings and the pope did not make that statement -- it is satire. It never happened.

However, what is satire?
Satires are usually based on some truth.

"Satire is funny because it takes a grain of truth and does something to showcase what is terrible or perverse or confusing or outrageous about it, whether by making it bigger or smaller or more black-and-white or more grey. Satires are pretend. Although based in some truth, they are intentionally outlandish to make a point. They say, “see, if you extend the logic of x idea, or practice, or system of thought, you’ll end up with this.” But in real life, x idea does not extend that far." - See more at: here

So has Pope Francis made comments that gave these satirists a grain of truth to build their satire and make it appear the Pope is in agreement with their idea of the "ideal"?

There seems to be evidence that the pope has made statements implying people who take a strong stand against the gay movement, abortion, and other fundamental Biblical points have a serious illness and are dangerous to society.

See here

The satire writers have taken those statements to what they consider would be the logical conclusion.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 03:49 AM

In a way APL (and others before him) have also taken somethings EGW said and "They say, “see, if you extend the logic of x idea, or practice, or system of thought, you’ll end up with this.” But in real life, x idea does not extend that far."


There is a common false idea that God is eagerly noting all our shortcomings and eagerly waiting to destroy all who dare reject His law. They see God a stern, unloving, judge who seeks only his own honor.

EGW writes strongly against the false picture of God. She plainly shows that it is not God's desire that any should be lost, but is lovingly and patiently doing all He can to save. she points out that God's law is NOT just some arbitrary thing by which God seeks His own honor, but that it is the very essence of what makes life wholesome, harmonious, and good, and it is His will that we experience that ideal.

She explains it's the persons own choice in rejecting life that causes them to end up losing life.

However, there is now a whole movement, especially in the west coast of America that has take these thoughts and extended them beyond what they are actually saying. Arguing that the logic of her expressions end up with their interpretation when in reality they do not extend that far, and their interpretation actually contradicts statements where EGW plainly shows she does NOT take it that far.

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
God is a consuming fire to sin. Do you think God should hide Himself forever?
YES - God is a consuming fire. What does this fire consume? SIN! The righteous will thrive in this fire!!! Thus it is SIN that causes the death, not God!


You sound as if you have been moved in this response.

I have said the exact same thing over and over. What is a sin? Open rebelion against the law of God. It takes a concience to sin.

Sin is not of itself, it must be accomplished through a person. The sinner is the representative of the sin until repented of.

Sin is destroyed with it's representatives at the end of Atonement. Every unconfessed sin is paid for by the sinner.

So in essence you just agreed with what God has been sharing with me without even realizing it.

My position has never changed. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30.

This is the natural consequence of sin! God does not have to inflict the penalty of sin. Other here say sin has no intrinsic consequence. The penalty of sin must be inflicted by God. God has to punish sin. Hogwash. Sin destroys. Sin kills. Sin is the problem, not God.

AS to the nature of sin, Satan is constantly trying to misrepresent this. Sin affects not only humans, but ALL LIFE on this planet.


APL,

I wonder at your inability to grasp the disconnect in what you say. Anyone who opposes truth must necessarily come to a point where he or she contradicts himself or herself. Such appears the case with you.

Previously, you have said sin causes death as its own punishment. In the above, you appear to admit it is God's consuming fire that consumes sin which will be the agent of death.

We agree that sin causes death. But I wonder at your inability to see that sin is not the active agent--for God steps in and reveals His character and glory, thus putting an end to sin once and for all.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 04:55 PM

To you Green, sin is not that bad. You said sin causes death, but it is then you say it can't cause death, that God is causing the death, so sin is not the real problem. The righteous live in God's glory, sinners do not. What is the difference? SIN! No sin, no death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 05:58 PM

APL, yes, yes, yes. I already know you believe the lake of fire must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdraws and permits punishment. What you haven't done is explain what you believe the lake of fire really is. I know you believe it is "interesting fire" but you have not taken the time to describe it. Please do so. Otherwise your view is a ghost.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/05/14 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Apparently, it is false:

Snopes


You're right -- there was no Vatican III meetings and the pope did not make that statement -- it is satire. It never happened.

However, what is satire?
Satires are usually based on some truth.

"Satire is funny because it takes a grain of truth and does something to showcase what is terrible or perverse or confusing or outrageous about it, whether by making it bigger or smaller or more black-and-white or more grey. Satires are pretend. Although based in some truth, they are intentionally outlandish to make a point. They say, “see, if you extend the logic of x idea, or practice, or system of thought, you’ll end up with this.” But in real life, x idea does not extend that far." - See more at: here

So has Pope Francis made comments that gave these satirists a grain of truth to build their satire and make it appear the Pope is in agreement with their idea of the "ideal"?

There seems to be evidence that the pope has made statements implying people who take a strong stand against the gay movement, abortion, and other fundamental Biblical points have a serious illness and are dangerous to society.

See here

The satire writers have taken those statements to what they consider would be the logical conclusion.

"Rome never changes"
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 04:42 AM

Ghosts?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 06:36 AM

The fire from heaven is the same thing as lightning from heaven. They are the angels of God doing His perfect will like an extension of Himself.

"We are informed in Scripture as to the number, and the power and glory, of the heavenly beings, of their connection with the government of God, and also of their relation to the work of redemption. “The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom ruleth over all.” And, says the prophet, “I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne.” In the presence chamber of the King of kings they wait—“angels, that excel in strength,” “ministers of His, that do His pleasure,” “hearkening unto the voice of His word.” Psalm 103:19-21; Revelation 5:11. Ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands, were the heavenly messengers beheld by the prophet Daniel. The apostle Paul declared them “an innumerable company.” Daniel 7:10; Hebrews 12:22. As God’s messengers they go forth, like “the appearance of a flash of lightning,” (Ezekiel 1:14), so dazzling their glory, and so swift their flight. The angel that appeared at the Saviour’s tomb, his countenance “like lightning, and his raiment white as snow,” caused the keepers for fear of him to quake, and they “became as dead men.” Matthew 28:3, 4. When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, “it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand.” There were “cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains,” from the army of Sennacherib. “So he returned with shame of face to his own land.” 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {GC 511.3}

As lightning flashes from the east so shall the coming of the Son of man come, with billions of heavenly angels they are the fire of God.

"Angels were sent to bring to naught the purpose of the builders... Lightning from heaven as a token of God’s wrath broke off the top of their tower, casting it to the ground. Thus God would show to rebellious man that he is supreme. {3SG 97.1}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 08:39 AM

By denying God's right to execute judgment is to deny His kingship and right to rule.

The doctrine of "judgment" is seen all through the whole Bible. God is constantly presented in the majesty of Judge. He calls the world to account. No man or nation can escape His judgment.

"The principal Hebrew word for the verb to judge is shaphat. The principal noun for judgment is mishpat. The root idea of shaphat is to rule or judge in the sense of rendering a verdict. "The noun mishpat means the judgment which is given by the shopet (judge), whence the word can mean justice, ordinance, legal right, and so forth."

The Hebrew word shaphat has the double meaning of "to rule" or "to judge." Translators have rendered shaphat in both ways. .

Judgment is a function of the king or ruler. To be a king means to be given the responsibility of judge.

It is not the job of the citizens to act as judge, but it is the responsibility of the king.

Throughout the book of Judges, the judges are Israel's deliverers and saviours who annihilate their enemies and bring Israel rest.

The big difference is that our Deliverer first must deliver everyone who will respond, from their sins.
His work of forgiving sins is especially a manifestation of the work of a judge. In view of Jesus' message of future judgment, forgiveness and deliverance from sin is urgent.

Remember God could have simply left sin to burn itself out -- everyone would have been destroyed, there would have been no hope, no deliverance, no justice.

But God is ruler and king still --
He will judge.


He will separate the "sheep and the goats". Those who responded to His offer of Life, and received His justification and sanctification will enter the joy of the Lord, while those who rejected it will enter the fire inflicting punishment that is irreversible -- the eternal death.

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.

John 5:20 Jesus says, " I judge: and my judgment is just".
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 05:38 PM

Physicians make judgments about patients all the time. But do the physicians then kill their patients? Nope. What you really want dedication is for God to be the executioner of the transgressor. This God is not! Hosea 4:17 AKJV Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Here is a judgment and response.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 05:56 PM

APL, repeating your view without explaining the lake of fire is pointless. Dismissing Dedication's post with a curt retort is disrespectful. Ignoring my questions and comments is rude.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, repeating your view without explaining the lake of fire is pointless. Dismissing Dedication's post with a curt retort is disrespectful. Ignoring my questions and comments is rude.

Mike,

With all due respect, I truly believe you have missed APL's entire point to begin with--his whole purpose for posting here. Don't let him succeed. Spend your time more profitably in building up the kingdom of God.

I've increasingly realized the futility of trying to evangelize the devil's missionaries. Their success is gained merely in wasting the Lord's servants' time. The longer they can lead the Lord's servants on to believe there is some hope of saving them, and the more time they can extract, so much the less time remains for the Lord's servants to have used in saving someone else.

Many of the devil's missionaries know not the part they are playing. But let not their ignorance be matched in our own. We must be "wise as serpents"--meaning we need to understand the devil's tricks.

APL is beyond changing his mind. That is amply demonstrated in the halls of this forum. He won't see the truth, for he has too often rejected it.

If APL were to read the Testimonies for the Church, with a mind set on seeking the Lord's will in place of cherished opinion, there may be yet some hope. Mrs. White wrote the following short testimony there which seems to apply, in a general sense, to any of us, and yet there are some testimonies which would apply more specifically to his case--but which I am certain he would reject were you or I to present them here, and thus I won't at this time.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Chapter 13 - Object of Personal Testimonies

Dear Brethren and Sisters: The Lord has again manifested Himself to me. June 12, 1868, while speaking to the brethren in the house of worship at Battle Creek, Michigan, the Spirit of God came upon me, and in an instant I was in vision. The view was extensive. I had commenced to write the fifth volume of Spiritual Gifts; but as I had testimonies of a practical nature which you should have immediately, I left that work to prepare this little pamphlet. {2T 112.1}

In this last vision I was shown that which fully justifies my course in publishing personal testimonies. When the Lord singles out individual cases and specifies their wrongs, others, who have not been shown in vision, frequently take it for granted that they are right, or nearly so. If one is reproved for a special wrong, brethren and sisters should carefully examine themselves to see wherein they have failed and wherein they have been guilty of the same sin. They should possess the spirit of humble confession. If others think them right, it does not make them so. God looks at the heart. He is proving and testing souls in this manner. In rebuking the wrongs of one, He designs to correct many. But if they fail to take the reproof to themselves, and flatter themselves that God passes over their errors because He does not especially single them out, they deceive their own souls and will be shut up in darkness and be left to their own ways to follow the imagination of their own hearts. {2T 112.2}

Many are dealing falsely with their own souls and are in a great deception in regard to their true condition before God. He employs ways and means to best serve His purpose and to prove what is in the hearts of His professed followers. He makes plain the wrongs of some that others may thus be warned, and fear, and shun those errors. By self-examination they may find that they are doing the same things which God condemns in others. If they really desire to serve God, and fear to offend Him, they will not wait for their sins to be specified before they make confession and with humble repentance return unto the Lord. They will forsake the things which have displeased God, according to the light given to others. If, on the contrary, those who are not right see that they are guilty of the very sins that have been reproved in others, yet continue in the same unconsecrated course because they have not been specially named, they endanger their own souls, and will be led captive by Satan at his will. {2T 113.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Physicians make judgments about patients all the time. But do the physicians then kill their patients? Nope. What you really want dedication is for God to be the executioner of the transgressor. This God is not! Hosea 4:17 AKJV Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Here is a judgment and response.


APL has built an idol of cherished opinion here. Let him alone.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Thousands are making the same mistake as did the Pharisees whom Christ reproved at Matthew's feast. Rather than give up some cherished idea, or discard some idol of opinion, many refuse the truth which comes down from the Father of light. They trust in self, and depend upon their own wisdom, and do not realize their spiritual poverty. They insist on being saved in some way by which they may perform some important work. When they see that there is no way of weaving self into the work, they reject the salvation provided. {DA 280.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I've increasingly realized the futility of trying to evangelize the devil's missionaries.
So would you say that if you did have success in evangelizing "the devil's missionaries", they would recant and say that God indeed does act like the devil?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:07 PM

Green - you quote a reference which speaks of works. Where I have claimed we are saved by works? We are saved by God from our sins, and by nothing we can do lest we boast. We are not saved from what God is going to do to us, unless you speak about God letting us have our own way. It is you that has said that you are glad you are not like me, or kland, or Johann, or Gregory. You thanks God that you are not like us sinners. That sure sounds like pride in your own opinion. "Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." "The sin that is most nearly hopeless and incurable is pride of opinion, self-conceit."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I've increasingly realized the futility of trying to evangelize the devil's missionaries.
So would you say that if you did have success in evangelizing "the devil's missionaries", they would recant and say that God indeed does act like the devil?
The pharisees were very offended when they were told they were wrong, and they rejected the truth about God.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Physicians make judgments about patients all the time. But do the physicians then kill their patients? Nope. What you really want dedication is for God to be the executioner of the transgressor. This God is not! Hosea 4:17 AKJV Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Here is a judgment and response.


APL has built an idol of cherished opinion here. Let him alone.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Thousands are making the same mistake as did the Pharisees whom Christ reproved at Matthew's feast. Rather than give up some cherished idea, or discard some idol of opinion, many refuse the truth which comes down from the Father of light. They trust in self, and depend upon their own wisdom, and do not realize their spiritual poverty. They insist on being saved in some way by which they may perform some important work. When they see that there is no way of weaving self into the work, they reject the salvation provided. {DA 280.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.



I agree that this is a heretical belief that has infiltrated our church as a movement in these last days. They are as thick as those who believe that everyone makes it to heaven, the sacred namers, the anti- Ellen Whiters, and the pentecostal horde of Rock and Roll worshippers. We are seeing the omaga of apostacy unvieled before our eyes and everyone is asleep, or have no strength to do anything about it if they wanted to.

God wont let me go down like that.

The people who think it a sport to come into SDA church or websites and try to convert others to your beliefs, and all those here for other-than-honorable intentions, my God has news for you.

Heavenly angels are marking your every thought, move and intention, and they are here to protect those who believe.

As long as there is someone who thinks they were sent by God to alter the message of the SDA church, God will direct me to that fight.

I do not defend the corporate segment, only those convicted and humbled in God's grace, the true church. Strive to be the church within the church. We need to continually sigh and cry for the abominations done in His sanctuary, but it takes God's intervention and a heart willing to be humilliated for errors to truly be converted and empowered to take on errors. Those who will not hear the truth are fooling themselves and others. Those who refuse to be persuaded by the unadulterated truth will be shaken out when the test comes.

Back to the subject...

Everyone knows fire from heaven destroyed Sodom and Gommorah correct? But what was that fire from heaven?

"Now the last night of Sodom was approaching. But men perceived it not. While angels drew near on their mission of destruction, men were dreaming of prosperity and pleasure. The last day was like every other that had come and gone. A landscape of unrivaled beauty was bathed in the rays of the declining sun. Pleasure-seeking throngs were passing to and fro, intent upon the enjoyment of the hour. {EP 99.1}
In the twilight, two strangers drew near to the city gate. None could discern in those wayfarers the mighty heralds of divine judgment. The careless multitude little dreamed that in their treatment of these heavenly messengers that very night they would reach the climax of guilt which doomed their city. {EP 99.2}

"The divine Majesty descended in a cloud with a glorious retinue of angels, who appeared as flames of fire." {1SP 234.3}

"While man lived near God, the altars were lighted by fire from heaven... each brought an offering to the gate of the garden... The lamb was laid upon the altar, and fire flashed from the shining sword of the cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life, and the sacrifice was consumed." {SDP 136.2}

Did you get it? The FIRE FROM HEAVEN that consumed every sacrifice and destroyed the wicked in Sodom and Gommorah came from the ANGEL with the firey sword that guards the way to the tree of life. But only those who have been following the path to the city would ever have a clue what I'm sharing with you right now.

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
It is you that has said that you are glad you are not like me, or kland, or Johann, or Gregory.


Misrepresenting what I said won't help your cause any.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:31 PM

Don't forget this verse. Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and has burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell you.

And this one, Isaiah 33:14-15 AKJV The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

And this one: Ezekiel 28:18-19 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you. 19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 07:59 PM

GC, I'm not sure if APL is unwittingly doing the work of Satan. One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments. I suspect his goal here is to teach and to win converts to his view of punishment. This may be why he refuses to answer questions and address comments. He is not here to study. He is here to teach. His style of teaching is not my favorite. It is not winsome. But, more importantly, it is not informing. It does not convey information.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/06/14 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, I'm not sure if APL is unwittingly doing the work of Satan. One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments. I suspect his goal here is to teach and to win converts to his view of punishment. This may be why he refuses to answer questions and address comments. He is not here to study. He is here to teach. His style of teaching is not my favorite. It is not winsome. But, more importantly, it is not informing. It does not convey information.
I have gone back of a number of years and read your comments MM. I see no change. You refuse to answer questions also. You refuse to see how God has interacted with the people in the OT and see any relevance to the end time. You have your ideas, and to you they can't be wrong. I was astonished reading back over your posts where you say we will not remember our actions in the world to come. It is like we will learn nothing from this current experience, we won't remember it! And reading the OT, if we can't remember or understand how God has dealt with sinners in the OT, we will not understand how He will deal with them in the end.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 04:18 AM

APL, and still you refuse to explain the lake of fire.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, and still you refuse to explain the lake of fire.
And you fail to see the light in the OT, the real character of God...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 04:30 AM

Why does it matter what I believe? I am simply asking you to explain what you believe. Please explain the lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
I have given you web addresses which has a much better explanation of what I believe. IF you really were interested, which I am unconvinced, you would have looked at them. You refuse. So be it.

Please post a website that explains the lake of fire. But please make sure it doesn't contain info and insights you don't believe.

PS - I have viewed websites you linked. However, one of them, a video, the guy believed the world was populated by beings before Jesus created Adam.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 06:51 PM

The belief that God does not punish for sin is a movement within the SDA church that has manifested itself in the past 5 years.

They are extreemists who teach that God does not even execute justice in the life of believers. There are no direct interventions, He just causes His support to fail and the earth opens up and kills them. They say God has absolutely no part to play in the execution of judgment, trying to make God impotent.

They have no idea how far this belief goes in the quenching of faith.

God directly interveins on our behalf every day. His support is critical to life here. If His influence is so valuable for every aspect of existance, then what holds the world together at the second resurrection? The wicked are resurrected and even the earth is angry at them, I get that, but death flees them. No one gets to hide from the wrath in that day. They are sustained in their pain even. They are tormented in perfect ballance to the intensity of their guilt.

How does the removal of the presence of the Father have any effect on the hearts of the unconfessors? This is the effect of the end of probation. They are still alive, being sustained by the earth that God sustains, but they are tormented with plagues, and when Jesus comes back they melt away, to be resurrected and go through the second death. There is no other way to put it, God executes justice, and He is not stained in the action. And this is what I don't get, is how they could take a few quotes and contradict so much in scripture and the Testimonies. God comes right out and says that His strange act is the death of the wicked, but they want to make God a liar it seems.

At the second resurrection those outside the gates martial an army without His help or guidance. They are defiant, coming to do battle with God to eat of the fruit, and then God's anger is not only at Satan but at men, and they are punished for EVERY sin because they did not confess and be born again. The lake of fire is divine because it is the glory of God through the angels... Angels execute God's commands as if it was Himself doing it.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments.
I think he has in the past. However, you do not see him as answering your questions as he is using a false premise. His answers are based upon the premise that you understand the difference between right and wrong. Until you make a distinction between right and wrong actions, no matter who is doing those actions, you will never understand his responses to be answers to your questions.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
God wont let me go down like that.
Would you feel God let you down if you found out at the 2nd coming that God doesn't kill? Would you feel disappointed?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 07:15 PM

This is a question for APL only. Regarding the golden calf incident, Ellen White says:
Quote:
The Israelites had been guilty of treason, and that against a King who had loaded them with benefits and whose authority they had voluntarily pledged themselves to obey. That the divine government might be maintained justice must be visited upon the traitors. Yet even here God's mercy was displayed. While He maintained His law, He granted freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance to all. Only those were cut off who persisted in rebellion. {PP 324.3}

In reading this, do you see a definition of justice being given or only mercy?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
the guy believed the world was populated by beings before Jesus created Adam.
What url was that????? None of mine... Of course, it is easy to claim such, much harder to defend...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments.

K: I think he has in the past. However, you do not see him as answering your questions as he is using a false premise. His answers are based upon the premise that you understand the difference between right and wrong. Until you make a distinction between right and wrong actions, no matter who is doing those actions, you will never understand his responses to be answers to your questions.

A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

You have yet to address this passage.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 08:04 PM

APL, please repost the links you posted. I've gone through this thread and can't find any. The one I'm referring to is of a guy on youtube talking to a camera in his room. He was talking about Hurricane Haiyan.

But more importantly, please post a link to a website that explains precisely what you believe about the lake of fire.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/07/14 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
This is a question for APL only. Regarding the golden calf incident, Ellen White says:
Quote:
The Israelites had been guilty of treason, and that against a King who had loaded them with benefits and whose authority they had voluntarily pledged themselves to obey. That the divine government might be maintained justice must be visited upon the traitors. Yet even here God's mercy was displayed. While He maintained His law, He granted freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance to all. Only those were cut off who persisted in rebellion. {PP 324.3}

In reading this, do you see a definition of justice being given or only mercy?


Justice and mercy. We have been around this topic before. What was the one thing that came in here which was not in God's plan? The taking up of the sword. Read PP 324-326, in light of DA 759, GC 36, and AA 12. The latter states, "Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ’s kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished." And yet, what do we find in the Golden Calf incident? Weapons of coercion. A big point of contention on this forum is whether God wanted Israel to FIGHT their way into the promised land. Quoting EGW: The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

With respect to taking up the sword, I will make a long quote:
Originally Posted By: K. Strub, "As He Is"
Their decision to take up weapons of coercion and destruction was not made in complete ignorance of God’s will. Their heavenly Father had faithfully communicated to them that the sword was to find no place among them whatsoever.

They were named after their revered father Israel, whose history of victory over his foes was well known to them. God designed that this should be a witness to them of His ways. The lesson was especially pertinent, for there was a distinct parallel existing between Israel’s situation and theirs. As he was a prisoner of his scheming uncle, Laban, and desired to depart for the promised land, so they were held in Egyptian bondage and longed to leave for Canaan’s land.

When the patriarch set forth on his journey, he was pursued by Laban who was determined to bring his son-in-law back with him. It cost Laban seven days to overtake Jacob, seven days in which his temper had time to reach fever heat. When he found Jacob,

He was hot with anger, and bent on forcing them to return, which he doubted not he could do, since his band was much the stronger. The fugitives were indeed in great peril {PP 193}.

Jacob, knowing full well that he would be pursued, made every provision possible to prevent his being forced to return. But in all his careful planning for the security of the ones he loved so dearly, he made no move to arm his servants with swords and spears. He put his entire trust in God as his Protector, and the Lord filled that commission so effectively that not only did Jacob not go back to Laban’s home but not one of his household was even so much as scratched.

This peril gone, with the pacified Laban returning to his place, Jacob pressed on to meet the greater peril of Esau who reportedly was coming to meet him with six hundred armed men. Esau had only one objective in mind―to ensure that Jacob could never dispossess him of their father’s wealth. The only way to assure this was to slaughter Jacob and his band. That would settle the question for all time.

As this deadly peril threatened Jacob, there were at least two different courses he could have adopted. The common human reaction is to turn to the power of weapons. Accordingly, Jacob could have chosen to divert from his course to spend time in arming and training his servants. He did not do this, for he rightly understood that this was not God’s way. Instead, he continued without deviation, his entire confidence resting in the assurance that God would faithfully fulfill His responsibility of protecting him and his entourage. On the night before the encounter, he turned aside to pray, his deep concern arising from the fear that unconfessed sin would obstruct God’s work and leave him exposed to his enemy. There was no lack of faith in God’s power to deliver him. His only fear was that his own spiritual condition would make that power unavailable. The long hours of agonized wrestling brought the victory.

God did not force Esau to leave his brother unmolested. Instead, He sent an angel to reveal to him the true character of Jacob, his sufferings, his spirit, and his intentions. Thus Esau was led to view Jacob in a new light. He realized that Jacob was not a threat to him and, therefore, did not need to be eliminated. His rage was replaced by sympathy, and the outcome again was that not a single one from Jacob’s household received so much as a scratch.

Here is a point worthy of emphasis. Whenever the children of Israel gave God the task of protecting them, not one of them lost their lives or suffered injury, but when they took the sword, there was nearly always loss of life, which in some cases was very heavy.

From Jacob’s experience, we gain a vision of how we should rely on God for deliverance. It is the same message reiterated by the psalmist.

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, even though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; though its waters roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with its swelling (Psalms 46:1-3).

The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them (Psalms 34:7).

The great controversy is not between us and Satan but between Christ and Satan. We do not have the power to overcome the enemy. God alone can do that and has undertaken to do so. Our task is to leave Him to do what He has promised. The victory is ours as a gift, which is demonstrated in the wonderful experience of Jacob.

Through this experience, God provided the Israelites with a perpetual testimony of the security available to them if they trustingly committed the keeping of their lives to Him. As a preparation for their departure from Egypt, it was sufficient to assure them that they were to make no provision for acquiring and using swords. They were to entrust that task to God as fully as Jacob did, knowing they could expect the same results.

God, knowing that the success of the great venture depended on their strict adherence to these principles, reiterated the lesson repeatedly during the exodus and the period leading up to it.

Moses had been thoroughly trained in the art of war and had proved himself on the battlefield to be a brilliant tactician.

His ability as a military leader made him a favorite with the armies of Egypt, and he was generally regarded as a remarkable character. {PP 245}.

Moses, therefore, naturally expected that the Lord would deliver them by force of arms. He saw in his Egyptian education a divinely provided training for such a campaign. Had God purposed to do things this way, no better man than Moses could have been found anywhere in history. It is significant that God made no use of this ability in Moses at any time in his life, for not once did Moses lead the armies of Israel into battle.

The elders of Israel were taught by angels that the time for their deliverance was near, and that Moses was the man whom God would employ to accomplish this work. Angels instructed Moses also that Jehovah had chosen him to break the bondage of His people. He, supposing that they were to obtain their freedom by force of arms, expected to lead the Hebrew host against the armies of Egypt, and having this in view, he guarded his affections, lest in his attachment to his foster mother or to Pharaoh he would not be free to do the will of God. {PP 245.2}

Thus Moses was dedicated to the divine purpose for himself and Israel and longed for the fulfillment of the plan. When he saw the Israelite being oppressed by the Egyptian, he slew the persecutor, supposing that thereby he had initiated the armed struggle which would liberate the slave nation. But even though the Israelites were aware of God’s appointment of Moses, there was not a man inspired to rise with him. Instead, he was forced into precipitous flight to Midian. This unexpected development caused Moses a great deal of deep heart-searching, providing God with the needed opportunity to teach him that it was not by warfare that Israel was to be delivered.

Forty years later he returned, clad, not in the shining armor of a military leader, but in the simple garb of an eastern shepherd with a staff in his hands. Before all Israel, God was proclaiming the way by which they would be taken out of bondage and preserved forever from their enemies. It was a reminder to them of the same truth as revealed in God’s dealings with Jacob.

In all of this we are to clearly see that God did not intend to free them by His providence only to change His method and have them fight their own way to the Promised Land under His guidance. God started the exodus upon principles that were to be forever preserved and maintained. At no time did He deviate from His established course of action. During the reign of sorrow, as plague followed plague, the Israelites had no part to play other than merely standing by and letting the Lord handle everything.

When, just before their final departure, God impressed the Egyptians to liberally provide the travelers with everything they would ever need on their journey, He did not put it in the hearts of their former masters to give them weapons of war. It was a people for whom God had made every provision, who went out of Egypt, “unarmed and unaccustomed to war” {PP 282}. If the Lord had intended a change from His fighting their battles to their doing this work for themselves, then He certainly would have made sure they were equipped for this role. The fact that He did not impress the Egyptians to arm them is clear proof that He never intended they should be. As the exodus began, so it was to continue.

How much happier their subsequent history would have been had they learned from Jacob and their recent experience of God’s deliverance. There would have been no substitution of human, faithless methods in place of the infallible, divine procedures. God would never have commanded them to take their swords and slaughter men, women, and children. In every situation He would have been their Defender and Deliverer.

When they came to the Red Sea, the Lord once more demonstrated the way in which the power of their enemies would be broken if they relied on God. There it was shown in the most vivid way that the rejecters of God’s mercy were simply left to themselves to perish.

When Pharaoh led his army into the corridor between those standing walls of water, it was an act of terrible presumption on his part. The only way in which the Israelites could pass safely over was by remaining within the circle of God’s protection. But the Egyptians had deliberately and defiantly cast off that protection, and therefore, the Spirit of the Lord could not maintain the waters in their position. As the army advanced, the Spirit of God had no choice but to retire before it. As that power was withdrawn, the waters simply rushed back to their original position, overwhelming the enemies of God and delivering His people.

God’s commitment to offering His creatures freedom of choice would be no more than empty words if there was no opportunity to choose another course. Accordingly, in order to give full support to His declared principles, the Lord is careful not to deprive the people of the means whereby they could go in another direction if they wished.

So while the Lord had made it absolutely clear that they were not to carry the sword in their journey from Egypt, they had the same freedom to obey or disobey as did their first parents in Eden. The opportunity for them to take the sword was afforded when the armor-clad bodies of the Egyptian soldiers were washed up at their feet.

As morning broke it revealed to the multitudes of Israel all that remained of their mighty foes―the mail-clad bodies cast upon the shore. {PP 287, 288}.

Here was the great test for the men of Israel. They were tempted with a veritable arsenal of weapons―swords, spears, helmets, shields, and breastplates. They could either rush down and take the spoils, thus equipping themselves to fight as other nations fought, or they could turn their backs upon it and leave their protection in the Lord’s hands.

There are no direct records confirming that they rushed down and took the armor from the Egyptians, but all the evidence points strongly in that direction. Here are the facts. They approached, crossed, and emerged from the Red Sea without implements of war. Shortly after leaving the Red Sea, they engaged in warfare against the Amalekites in which they did not use sticks and stones. As there were no swordsmiths between the Red Sea and the location of their first battle, the only way they could have become equipped was by salvaging the weaponry washed ashore.

It was a critical point in their history, for the sad decision made there influenced the full span of their future. The real issue involved whether the people were going to trust God as their sole Protector or whether they were going to take His work into their own hands. It was the question of implicit trust in God versus greater confidence in the power of their own fighting abilities. They introduced a new order into the camp, replacing the divine arrangement. Thus they prevented the nation from giving a true representation of God’s character, and this eventually led to their final dismissal as the channel of God’s communication to the world.

What makes their decision so significant are the circumstances under which it was made. God had just demonstrated to them the most thrilling and convincing display of His ability and willingness to deal with their enemies according to the principles of eternal righteousness. With a God like that, what need did they have of weapons? In taking up the sword at that point, Israel failed tragically.

That it was not His intent for them to make war is proved by direct statements as well as by all the principles which undergird God’s character.

The Lord had never commanded them to “go up and fight.” It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392}

The use of force is exclusive to Satan’s kingdom. It has no part in God’s order. They were to possess the Promised Land by strict obedience to His commands, one of which prohibits killing.

So while it is true that they gained the land by force, contrary to God’s way, let it not be forgotten that they also lost it in the same manner. Their sad history confirms the truth of Christ’s words to the valiant and belligerent Peter: “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Matthew 26:52).

Jesus did not give these words a limited application in time. He was not saying, “From this time forward, all who take the sword will thereby perish.” What He stated is an eternal truth. It is a statement of the fact that the use of force engenders counterforce.

God, understanding perfectly that those who live by the sword will perish by it, knew that for Israel to use weaponry was to ensure their destruction. God did not desire such an outcome. Therefore, from this motivation alone, it is certain that He never gave them the sword. More than this, if He had done so, then He would be responsible for their destruction, for he who gives to another that which will assuredly effect his death must carry the blame for that demise.

It follows then that it was never in God’s purpose that Israel or anyone else should ever carry the sword. It has no place in His character and corresponding methods, and therefore, it is to find no acceptance in the character and behavior of His people.

The recognition of this truth is essential to understanding the directives from God which sent the Israelites forth with the sword to utterly destroy the peoples who opposed them. The institution of this form of government was entirely the people’s work, the expression of their having more faith in themselves than in God. It was the establishment of human principles and procedures in place of the divine.

Therefore, in every instance where the Israelites went to war or executed the wrongdoers among themselves, their actions were not a revelation of the character of God. There has been a universal readiness to conclude that they were acting in complete righteousness by simply doing as the Lord told them. If they had been a truly obedient people, they would not have had the swords at all and, therefore, would never have gone forth to slay their enemies.

Yet God did give directions to them. There is no denying this, nor is there any desire to do so, for the nature of those commands reveals a very wonderful and beautiful Father in heaven who is ever reaching out to save and never to destroy. The tragic error is that He has been terribly misunderstood to the point where the actions designed to minimize the evil effects of the slaughtering to which they were committed have been judged in an altogether different and wrong light.

The purpose here is to establish that it was in spite of God’s best efforts to the contrary that the sword became an establishment in the encampment of Israel. The recognition of this truth is essential to understanding the directives given to Israel, which have long been viewed as an indication that He was personally using them as executioners.

Again, if God’s will had been respected, they would never have used the sword, and God would have been free to do His work for them according to the eternal principles of righteousness. The command given by God at various times in connection with the various slayings during the sojourn of Israel makes it difficult for the average person to see anything but that God was personally and directly involved and that He decided the particular sentence and then ordered its execution.

But God does not give orders contrary to the principles of righteousness. Therefore, more study is required to remove the seeming inconsistencies. This may be done with the sweet consciousness that there are no contradictions in the Word of God and that God’s character is perfectly consistent in all its behavior.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 12:56 AM

My question concerning the quote above is how much comes from inspired writings, and how much is the opinion of K. Strub?



There are a lot of RED [PP] marks which gives it the appearance that this is from EGW, but how much of it is?

The first reference is to Laban, in PP 193, but only one very short sentence is taken from this EGW quote which I show as it appears in EGW's context, by highlighting it in red:

Quote:
After three days Laban learned of their flight, and set forth in pursuit, overtaking the company on the seventh day of their journey. He was hot with anger, and bent on forcing them to return, which he doubted not he could do, since his band was much the stronger. The fugitives were indeed in great peril. {PP 193.2}
That he did not carry out his hostile purpose was due to the fact that God Himself had interposed for the protection of His servant. "It is in the power of my hand to do you hurt," said Laban, "but the God of your father spake unto me yesternight, saying, Take thou heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad;" that is, he should not force him to return, or urge him by flattering inducements. {PP 193.3}


Next two Bible verses are given which speak of God being our refuge and strength and that God's angels encamps about us to deliver us (Psalms. 46:1-3 and Ps.34:7]

Beautiful and precious verses, but not really dealing directly with the issue under question.

Next we have {PP 245}.
Here is that context:

Quote:
At the court of Pharaoh, Moses received the highest civil and military training. The monarch had determined to make his adopted grandson his successor on the throne, and the youth was educated for his high station. "And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds." Acts 7:22. His ability as a military leader made him a favorite with the armies of Egypt, and he was generally regarded as a remarkable character. Satan had been defeated in his purpose. The very decree condemning the Hebrew children to death had been overruled by God for the training and education of the future leader of His people. {PP 245.1}
The elders of Israel were taught by angels that the time for their deliverance was near, and that Moses was the man whom God would employ to accomplish this work. Angels instructed Moses also that Jehovah had chosen him to break the bondage of His people. He, supposing that they were to obtain their freedom by force of arms, expected to lead the Hebrew host against the armies of Egypt, and having this in view, he guarded his affections, lest in his attachment to his foster mother or to Pharaoh he would not be free to do the will of God. {PP 245.2}

... In slaying the Egyptian, Moses had fallen into the same error so often committed by his fathers, of taking into their own hands the work that God had promised to do. It was not God's will to deliver His people by warfare, as Moses thought, but by His own mighty power, that the glory might be ascribed to Him alone.

While the story of Moses in the Egyptian court used considerable from EGW, the conclusion was somewhat different.
Strub focuses on Moses thinking he had to use arms,
while EGW focuses on Moses depending on his own wisdom and ability to marshal arms to free the Israelites.

We know that in the actual military conquest of Canaan the Israelites only won when they depended upon God, while losing even to little villages when they failed to depend upon God.

The next reference
“unarmed and unaccustomed to war” {PP 282}.
Shows the Israelites were a helpless people as they left Egypt.

The Red Sea --
Question -- did God really leave the Egyptians to "themselves" at the Red Sea, somehow Strub forgot that the Bible tells us:

Ex. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,
14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

From here on Strub is mainly on his own --
True EGW does say the armor clad bodies washed ashore, but nowhere -- not in the Bible nor in EGW's writings are we told anything about a great test and the Israelites failing the test by taking the swords etc. and thus forever after being punished by being forced to fight their own battles with the sword by the command of God.

They only speak of a great praise service being held for God's deliverance.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 02:47 AM

dedication, my response was to kland as it was a direct question only to me. But, you ask "There are a lot of RED [PP] marks which gives it the appearance that this is from EGW, but how much of it is?" Dedication, the paragraphs quoted are marked or sentences quoted are set off with quotation marks. Is it that hard to tell? But if you want to cast doubt over the small portion of the article quoted, it is very easy to inject it. Perhaps you should read the whole book.

Yes, EGW does say that armor clad bodies did wash up. The speculation that this is where Israel got arms does not originate with Straub. When they left, it is clear, they were "unarmed". And it is also clear, "The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands." You have observed correctly, that numbers and arms were not what was required to take the promised land.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 05:20 AM

And yet the concluding question remains.

1. No where do we read in inspired writings that Israel was here given a great test which they failed by collecting the spoils washed up on the shores of the Red Sea.

Yet, the author of the quote you posted claims this was the great test and because they failed ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS were punished and commanded by God to fight to gain the promised land if they wanted it.

Somehow that just does not sound right.

I not only read all of Patriachs and Prophets (which gives a well balanced picture of Biblical history) but I also have two books that basically have the same message APL is posting -- one book by Michael Clute and another by F.T. Wright. (Your post attributed to Strub is actually in Wright's book, page 322)

What amazes me is how these authors have to re-interpret and rationalize literally hundreds of passages in scripture in order to fit their message.

For example -- when Israel worships the Golden Calf thereby breaking their covenant, and Moses goes up into the mountain to mediate for Israel.

The Bible says:
Quote:
"32:9 And the LORD (Jehovah) said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Clute says -- that is satan tempting Moses, trying to get his permission to destroy Israel, it's not God speaking at all.

But does EGW (whom he quotes profusely) agree?
Quote:
God's covenant with His people had been disannulled, and He declared to Moses, "Let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." The people of Israel, especially the mixed multitude, would be constantly disposed to rebel against God. They would also murmur against their leader, and would grieve him by their unbelief and stubbornness, and it would be a laborious and soul-trying work to lead them through to the Promised Land. Their sins had already forfeited the favor of God, and justice called for their destruction. The Lord therefore proposed to destroy them, and make of Moses a mighty nation. {PP 318.1}


Wright, on the other hand goes so much in circles in the Sinai revolt that's its hard to make any sense of it. He quotes PP 325 where EGW says speedy punishment was necessary and in order to save the many God must punish the few..

But then he says, since Israel had taken up the swords (at the Red Sea) God put the responsibility on them to kill all the unrepentant rebels! If they hadn't picked up those swords, God would have allowed the earth to swallow the rebels or the snakes to poison them or whatever -- but of course, according to him, either way it was not God punishing them.

It's just too confusing to make sense.
Yet, those whole books are full of such things.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 05:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, I'm not sure if APL is unwittingly doing the work of Satan. One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments. I suspect his goal here is to teach and to win converts to his view of punishment. This may be why he refuses to answer questions and address comments. He is not here to study. He is here to teach. His style of teaching is not my favorite. It is not winsome. But, more importantly, it is not informing. It does not convey information.


Mike, You are a pastor, right? Mrs. White penned good counsel for pastors in this arena.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Many that are drifting into darkness and infidelity are picking flaws with the Bible, and bringing in superstitious inventions, unscriptural doctrines, and philosophical speculations; others excite trifling inquiries and disputations, which call off the servants of God from their work, causing them to waste their time and lose their labor. Those who permit themselves to be thus hindered are giving place to Satan, and surrounding their own souls with an atmosphere of doubt and unbelief. While doing this, they might have been bringing gold, silver, and precious stones to lay upon the foundation. The ministers of Christ should not allow themselves to be thus hindered in their work. There will be enough to question, and quibble, and criticise, to keep the ministers of God constantly busy, if they will allow themselves to be detained from the great work of giving the last message of warning to the world. {GW92 273.1}


Don't let APL call you off from your work.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 06:27 AM

Look at Joshua --
He faithfully sought to obey God's commands.
He knew there was no way Israel would conquer Canaan in their own strength.

Quote:
"First of all he sought an assurance of divine guidance, and it was granted him. Withdrawing from the encampment to meditate and to pray that the God of Israel would go before His people, he beheld an armed warrior, of lofty stature and commanding presence, "with his sword drawn in his hand." To Joshua's challenge, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" the answer was given, "As Captain of the host of the Lord am I now come." The same command given to Moses in Horeb, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy," revealed the true character of the mysterious stranger. It was Christ, the Exalted One, who stood before the leader of Israel. Awe-stricken, Joshua fell upon his face and worshiped, and heard the assurance, "I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valor," and he received instruction for the capture of the city. {PP 487.3}
In obedience to the divine command Joshua marshaled the armies of Israel. No assault was to be made. They were simply to make the circuit of the city, bearing the ark of God and blowing upon trumpets.

Several things stand out here.

1. Christ stands before Joshua WITH A SWORD?

2. Joshua is totally dedicated to follow Christ's commands exactly as they are given him.

In succeeding verses we see the Israelites doing exactly what Christ commanded them in their circling around Jericho.

Seems to me it would have been a great time for God to teach this new generation of Israelites HIS METHOD if they were not to take up arms to fight.
Indeed as a child, I used to think they didn't fight at all in that battle. But I was wrong.
Christ, and the angels threw down the walls and opened up Jericho so the people could take the city.

Quote:
" If the eyes of Joshua had been opened as were the eyes of the servant of Elisha at Dothan, and he could have endured the sight, he would have seen the angels of the Lord encamped about the children of Israel; for the trained army of heaven had come to fight for the people of God, and the Captain of the Lord's host was there to command. When Jericho fell, no human hand touched the walls of the city, for the angels of the Lord overthrew the fortifications, and entered the fortress of the enemy. It was not Israel, but the Captain of the Lord's host that took Jericho. But Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation. {CC 117.3}
The Captain of the Lord's host came Himself from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in the attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground. 3T 264


Once those walls were down the Israelites were to utterly destroy the city and everyone in it, they were to take nothing for themselves. The gold and silver was to be taken to the tabernacle. The city was burned. Only Rahab and her family were to be spared.


Further -- one man disobeyed and helped himself to the spoils causing God's displeasure to the point where Israel lost a battle, a number of soldiers lost their lives.

God commanded Joshua to cast lots and HE would point out the disobedient one, and this person with his whole family was to be killed.

God was very particular that Israel recognize their utter dependence upon Him, without God the conquest of Canaan was hopeless. Yet to have God fighting for them they had to be loyal to Him. It would have been so easy to get them to lay aside their swords and just let God do it all, but would they have simply taken that for granted?



I fully recommend the reading of Patriarchs and Prophets by EGW. The confused renderings of Clute and Wright I do not recommend-- the books were given me by people who were pushing this theory and only confirmed me in my belief that they were not balanced.






Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Look at Joshua --
He faithfully sought to obey God's commands.
He knew there was no way Israel would conquer Canaan in their own strength.

Quote:
"First of all he sought an assurance of divine guidance, and it was granted him. Withdrawing from the encampment to meditate and to pray that the God of Israel would go before His people, he beheld an armed warrior, of lofty stature and commanding presence, "with his sword drawn in his hand." To Joshua's challenge, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" the answer was given, "As Captain of the host of the Lord am I now come." The same command given to Moses in Horeb, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy," revealed the true character of the mysterious stranger. It was Christ, the Exalted One, who stood before the leader of Israel. Awe-stricken, Joshua fell upon his face and worshiped, and heard the assurance, "I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valor," and he received instruction for the capture of the city. {PP 487.3}
In obedience to the divine command Joshua marshaled the armies of Israel. No assault was to be made. They were simply to make the circuit of the city, bearing the ark of God and blowing upon trumpets.

Several things stand out here.

1. Christ stands before Joshua WITH A SWORD?

2. Joshua is totally dedicated to follow Christ's commands exactly as they are given him.

In succeeding verses we see the Israelites doing exactly what Christ commanded them in their circling around Jericho.

Seems to me it would have been a great time for God to teach this new generation of Israelites HIS METHOD if they were not to take up arms to fight.
Indeed as a child, I used to think they didn't fight at all in that battle. But I was wrong.
Christ, and the angels threw down the walls and opened up Jericho so the people could take the city.

Quote:
" If the eyes of Joshua had been opened as were the eyes of the servant of Elisha at Dothan, and he could have endured the sight, he would have seen the angels of the Lord encamped about the children of Israel; for the trained army of heaven had come to fight for the people of God, and the Captain of the Lord's host was there to command. When Jericho fell, no human hand touched the walls of the city, for the angels of the Lord overthrew the fortifications, and entered the fortress of the enemy. It was not Israel, but the Captain of the Lord's host that took Jericho. But Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation. {CC 117.3}
The Captain of the Lord's host came Himself from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in the attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground. 3T 264


Once those walls were down the Israelites were to utterly destroy the city and everyone in it, they were to take nothing for themselves. The gold and silver was to be taken to the tabernacle. The city was burned. Only Rahab and her family were to be spared.


Further -- one man disobeyed and helped himself to the spoils causing God's displeasure to the point where Israel lost a battle, a number of soldiers lost their lives.

God commanded Joshua to cast lots and HE would point out the disobedient one, and this person with his whole family was to be killed.

God was very particular that Israel recognize their utter dependence upon Him, without God the conquest of Canaan was hopeless. Yet to have God fighting for them they had to be loyal to Him. It would have been so easy to get them to lay aside their swords and just let God do it all, but would they have simply taken that for granted?



I fully recommend the reading of Patriarchs and Prophets by EGW. The confused renderings of Clute and Wright I do not recommend-- the books were given me by people who were pushing this theory and only confirmed me in my belief that they were not balanced.


I concur with the general facts as you have laid them out, albeit not entirely the same interpretation. There is more to the failure of Ai than besides Achan's sin. Israel was self-confident, and did not go up against Ai with the assurance that God was with them. It was not a question of numbers of arms, but whether God was with them. Also as EGW has said before, "It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King." {PP 491.2} Have we heard that before? The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3} They were not to fight, and when they fought, they were not to fight for themselves.

Speaking of Ai, EGW writes:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Soon after the fall of Jericho, Joshua determined to attack Ai, a small town among the ravines a few miles to the west of the Jordan Valley. Spies sent to this place brought back the report that the inhabitants were but few, and that only a small force would be needed to overthrow it. {PP 493.3}

The great victory that God had gained for them had made the Israelites self-confident. Because He had promised them the land of Canaan they felt secure, and failed to realize that divine help alone could give them success. Even Joshua laid his plans for the conquest of Ai without seeking counsel from God. {PP 493.4}

The Israelites had begun to exalt their own strength and to look with contempt upon their foes. An easy victory was expected, and three thousand men were thought sufficient to take the place. These rushed to the attack without the assurance that God would be with them. {PP 493.5}
Israel went downhill from there. They had more victories, but they never fulfilled what God had planned for them. They went backwards, not forwards. We see glimpes of what might have been in 2 Chronicles 20. But Israel did not become the light of the world they could have been.

Originally Posted By: dedication
God was very particular that Israel recognize their utter dependence upon Him, without God the conquest of Canaan was hopeless. Yet to have God fighting for them they had to be loyal to Him. It would have been so easy to get them to lay aside their swords and just let God do it all, but would they have simply taken that for granted?
I guess the example of Israel (JACOB) is not sufficient. Did he fight Laban? Did he fight Esau? Did the people fight when they left Egypt? Why would they need to fight to take the promised land? EGW says "it was not His [God's] purpose that they should gain the land by warfare".

You mention the writings of two other people which I do not believe have even been mentioned in these threads before. You inclusion now is for what purpose? How does what they thing or write serve in THIS discussion?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 11:18 AM

Originally Posted By: APL

Originally Posted By: dedication
Look at Joshua --
He faithfully sought to obey God's commands.
He knew there was no way Israel would conquer Canaan in their own strength.......

Once those walls were down the Israelites were to utterly destroy the city and everyone in it, they were to take nothing for themselves. ... Only Rahab and her family were to be spared.

Further -- one man disobeyed and helped himself to the spoils causing God's displeasure to the point where Israel lost a battle, a number of soldiers lost their lives.
God commanded Joshua to cast lots and HE would point out the disobedient one, and this person with his whole family was to be killed.


I concur with the general facts as you have laid them out, albeit not entirely the same interpretation.


But you didn't answer as to why, with the miraculous throwing down of the walls, did God still expect Israel to destroy everyone in Jericho with the sword (everyone except Rahab and her family)? That battle was entered into in full trust the Lord would fight for them.
Why was the actual destroying of the people still their responsibility?

Originally Posted By: APL
There is more to the failure of Ai than besides Achan's sin. Israel was self-confident, and did not go up against Ai with the assurance that God was with them. It was not a question of numbers of arms, but whether God was with them.


Agreed-- it's total whether God was with them or not. The point is -- they could not conquer Canaan in their own strength, they had to rely upon God. And once God was again with them they had no problem taking Ai; it wasn't a matter of God not wanting them to take up arms, but a matter of God being with them.


Quote:
Also as EGW has said before, "It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King." [PP 491]


No question there --
But notice it was God's will that they executed.

Originally Posted By: APL
Have we heard that before? The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3} They were not to fight, and when they fought, they were not to fight for themselves.


We need to look at those fragments in context:

The quote in context is talking about Israel after the 12 spies had returned from Canaan -- ten spies were lamenting that there were too many giants and too many fortified cities and Israel couldn't possibly take the land. Caleb and Joshua tried to tell the people that the Lord had promised them the land and with Him they were well able to take it. But the people listened to the ten and reacted very badly. So God says -- "OK, your wish is granted, wander in the wilderness forty years till this whole generation gets their wish to die in the wilderness."

Suddenly the Israelites change their minds --
They decide to go and conquer Canaan WITHOUT GOD -- in their own strength!
This God never commanded and this they could never do, and they were sorely defeated.

Originally Posted By: EGW
They left God out of the question, and acted as though they must depend solely on the power of arms. {PP 388.1}

The night was spent in lamentation, but with the morning came a hope. They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn.... now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}


Conclusion--
Prior to their rebellion God DID want them to go and TAKE the land and He would enable them to do so.
They refused thinking they had to do it in their own strength, with their OWN warfare, and were complaining bitterly that it was too hard.
So God withdraws the privilege.
They then decide to go and expected God to honor THEIR WORK!

This isn't talking about NO warfare, it's talking about Israel thinking THEY could or had to take Canaan by THEIR OWN warfare.
There is a difference.





Originally Posted By: APL
Speaking of Ai, EGW writes: [quote=EGW]Soon after the fall of Jericho, Joshua determined to attack Ai, a small town .....
The great victory that God had gained for them had made the Israelites self-confident. Because He had promised them the land of Canaan they felt secure, and failed to realize that divine help alone could give them success. Even Joshua laid his plans for the conquest of Ai without seeking counsel from God. {PP 493.4}

The Israelites had begun to exalt their own strength


Same problem --
It isn't that they were using warfare, the problem was always thinking THEIR warfare was strong enough to do it.
No -- it was God enabling the victories, not their own strength, as long as they realized that and depended on that they were victorious.

God never intended them to take Canaan with THEIR own warfare, destitute of relying upon God, but with God fighting for them, they were still required to execute His will in active warfare.





Originally Posted By: APL
I guess the example of Israel (JACOB) is not sufficient. Did he fight Laban? Did he fight Esau? Did the people fight when they left Egypt? Why would they need to fight to take the promised land? EGW says "it was not His [God's] purpose that they should gain the land by warfare".


Because God asked them to.
And see above for the context of the quote you used.

Why did Abraham arm his servants to fight to save Lot in Gen 14?
And why was he blessed by God at the end of that battle?



Originally Posted By: APL
You mention the writings of two other people which I do not believe have even been mentioned in these threads before. You inclusion now is for what purpose? How does what they thing or write serve in THIS discussion?
They write the same stuff as you write. In fact the whole Esau and Jacob and Laban argument is found in Wrights book. The quote you gave from Strub is also straight from Wrights book, pretty much word for word. This didn't originate with you -- though I'm sure you throw in some of your own ideas. However, there is a whole movement on this, and we've heard it in other times and places.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 03:50 PM

Going up and taking the land does not necessarily equate with go up and fight to take the land. When they crossed the Red Sea and the Jordan, they were to march across. The way was open to them. They were required to march.

Exodus 14:13-14 AKJV And Moses said to the people, Fear you not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will show to you to day: for the Egyptians whom you have seen to day, you shall see them again no more for ever. 14 The LORD shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace.

As to a "movement" as you say, perhaps there is a movement back to what early Adventists believed and wrote about in EGW's time. Do you believe that EGW did not know what was being said and written about, and preached? Here is one example:

God did not design that the people should do any fighting. He led them through the wilderness, in order that they might not see war. Yet He knew that if they went the way that they did, the Egyptians would surely pursue them. The children of Israel never had any greater need of fighting than they did when the Egyptians closed in on them by the Red Sea; yet the word then was, "The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace." (Exodus 14:14) {1900 EJW, EVCO 206.4}

It may be said that the reason why the Lord did not wish them to see war was because they were as yet unprepared for fighting; but we must remember that on other occasions when they had many trained warriors, God often delivered them without their striking a blow. When we consider the circumstances of their deliverance from Egypt--how it was all accomplished by the direct power of God, without any human power, their part being only to follow and obey His word--we must be convinced that it was not according to the plan of God that they should do any fighting, even in self-defense. {1900 EJW, EVCO 206.5}

But if this is not convincing, and I know it is not for most here think war is perfectly OK, all we need to do is look to Jesus. All fighting with carnal weapons is proscribed.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please repost the links you posted. I've gone through this thread and can't find any. The one I'm referring to is of a guy on youtube talking to a camera in his room. He was talking about Hurricane Haiyan.

But more importantly, please post a link to a website that explains precisely what you believe about the lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 08:19 PM

GC, thank you for the counsel - good counsel. I spend less than 5 minutes on APL's posts. I would spend more time if he actually posted something new.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: One thing is certain - he refuses to answer questions and address comments.

K: I think he has in the past. However, you do not see him as answering your questions as he is using a false premise. His answers are based upon the premise that you understand the difference between right and wrong. Until you make a distinction between right and wrong actions, no matter who is doing those actions, you will never understand his responses to be answers to your questions.


A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?
....
You have yet to address this passage.
Isn't this different than what we've been talking about? Until you recognize right from wrong, is there any point in addressing any other quotes? Hasn't APL addressed your above questions elsewhere?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 11:21 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
This is a question for APL only. Regarding the golden calf incident, Ellen White says:
Quote:
The Israelites had been guilty of treason, and that against a King who had loaded them with benefits and whose authority they had voluntarily pledged themselves to obey. That the divine government might be maintained justice must be visited upon the traitors. Yet even here God's mercy was displayed. While He maintained His law, He granted freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance to all. Only those were cut off who persisted in rebellion. {PP 324.3}

In reading this, do you see a definition of justice being given or only mercy?


Justice and mercy.
Thanks. I wasn't sure.

I don't believe I had heard of Strub before, but unlike dedication, I had heard about them picking up arms from the dead Egyptians.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/08/14 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

From here on Strub is mainly on his own --
True EGW does say the armor clad bodies washed ashore, but nowhere -- not in the Bible nor in EGW's writings are we told anything about a great test and the Israelites failing the test by taking the swords etc. and thus forever after being punished by being forced to fight their own battles with the sword by the command of God.

They only speak of a great praise service being held for God's deliverance.
If they left unarmed, and they didn't pick up arms from the Egyptians, where did they get them? "Nowhere -- not in the Bible nor in EGW's writings are we told anything about" them manufacturing weapons.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 12:46 AM

This has been one of the longest topics in the history of Maritime.

Is it that hard to determine whether or not God punishes, however, God chooses to do it?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
This has been one of the longest topics in the history of Maritime.

Is it that hard to determine whether or not God punishes, however, God chooses to do it?


Daryl - there is no question that sinners suffer. The question is what is God's roll. Does God have to actively punish the sinner? What is the roll of sin? Is sin the cause of sickness, pain and death? Most here seem to believe that actually God is the cause of death, which is a mystery to me. Some here think that the life of Christ on this earth tells us little about the great controversy. And that the death of Christ is not the death that a sinner will die. There are only 2 deaths described in the Bible, and we all will suffer the first death, so what death did Christ taste for all of us? The first? I don't think so! Christ's death tells us what roll God has in the second death, and it is not execution by God. EGW: "Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God."
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
This has been one of the longest topics in the history of Maritime.

Is it that hard to determine whether or not God punishes, however, God chooses to do it?

smile

That's a NICE observation. They want a simplistic generalization for those things God has kept to Himself. But even the Devil knows that his end is near at the hand of God, for Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather FEAR HIM who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mat. 10:28) and again, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire PREPARED FOR the Devil and his angels." (Mat. 25:41)

Does God punish? Duh!

///
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 05:00 AM

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most probably think they know who it is that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Most are probably wrong.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

You have yet to address this passage.


Originally Posted By: kland
Isn't this different than what we've been talking about? Until you recognize right from wrong, is there any point in addressing any other quotes?

You didn't answer the questions. Why not? You didn't address the quote. Why not? You and APL both have a habit of ignoring pertinent comments, quotes, and questions.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 05:07 AM

APL, your unwilling to explain the lake of fire is suspicious. It's one of the reasons this thread is soooooo long. If you were to state your belief plainly some of us move on and leave you to your beliefs.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 06:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, your unwilling to explain the lake of fire is suspicious. It's one of the reasons this thread is soooooo long. If you were to state your belief plainly some of us move on and leave you to your beliefs.
I have presented it though you do not discern it, for you reject the foundation, or at minimum, do not wish to to explore the base. I can't make you, nor do I wish to make you, that is your choice.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You didn't answer the questions. Why not? You didn't address the quote. Why not? You and APL both have a habit of ignoring pertinent comments, quotes, and questions.
We are in good company then!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 06:08 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most probably think they know who it is that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Most are probably wrong.

I would expect the "most" includes APL.

Consider the textual evidence.

The Greek word for "fear" is phobeō (Gr. 5399), and can mean to be afraid or to "fear," as translated here. It can also mean: to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience. Certainly, Jesus would not have been telling His disciples to have "reverential obedience" for Satan!

In a Biblical use of the term which is clearly using it in the sense of "reverence," look at the following verse:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And they feared [Gr. 5399] exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:41)


Obviously, when the wind and the sea had been calmed by Jesus, the disciples had no more reason for actual fear. Their "fear," in this case, is more akin to awe and reverence toward their Savior.

Other verses where this same truth is on display include the following:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. (Mark 5:33)

For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. (Mark 6:20)

And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. (Luke 1:50)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. (Acts 10:2)

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. (Acts 10:22)

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:35)

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. (Acts 13:26)

Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. (Ephesians 5:33)


All of these verses use the Greek word "phobeō". These verses all show that it is a good thing to fear God.

Jesus made it quite clear to us. We should fear Him who has the power to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 07:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Jesus
Jesus made it quite clear to us. We should fear Him who has the power to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus was talking about himself? Hm. And no, I was not thinking of Satan.
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most probably think they know who it is that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Most are probably wrong.

I would expect the "most" includes APL.

Consider the textual evidence.

The Greek word for "fear" is phobeō (Gr. 5399), and can mean to be afraid or to "fear," as translated here. It can also mean: to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience. Certainly, Jesus would not have been telling His disciples to have "reverential obedience" for Satan!

In a Biblical use of the term which is clearly using it in the sense of "reverence," look at the following verse:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And they feared [Gr. 5399] exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:41)


Obviously, when the wind and the sea had been calmed by Jesus, the disciples had no more reason for actual fear. Their "fear," in this case, is more akin to awe and reverence toward their Savior.

Other verses where this same truth is on display include the following:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. (Mark 5:33)

For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. (Mark 6:20)

And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. (Luke 1:50)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. (Acts 10:2)

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. (Acts 10:22)

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:35)

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. (Acts 13:26)

Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. (Ephesians 5:33)


All of these verses use the Greek word "phobeō". These verses all show that it is a good thing to fear God.

Jesus made it quite clear to us. We should fear Him who has the power to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It's not reverential fear but a fear born out of the possibility of losing life. Read the context.

///
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 08:19 AM

The side stepping is quite obvious and is why this gets absolutely nowhere.

I mention that NO WHERE in scripture or spirit of prophecy do we read about a great test at the Red Sea, which Israel failed by picking up arms, and because of this God punished them for all generations to come, making them fight for their land.

Kland responds as having heard that concept of them picking up arms, and I just didn't know about it --
However, I heard that argument already thirty years ago -- and have not yet found it in scripture or Spirit of Prophecy.

APL only gives some circumstantial reasoning that they were unarmed when they left but had arms later on -- so they must have picked them up.

But that still does NOT give any evidence that this was a GREAT TEST which the Israelites failed and thus were punished for all later generations in being commanded to fight for their land, because now God won't do it for them.

The main question is completely side stepped.

Nor would they answer as to why God still expected the Israelites to destroy the inhabitants of Jericho even after the great act of faith and the angels casting down the walls of the city.
They were to "execute His will" in taking the city, not fight for themselves, but still they were to "execute His will" by destroying everyone in that city except Rahab and her family.

Neither APL nor Kland answer those questions.
All they do is hold up their hypothesis and explain away sentences that contradict their hypothesis, and expect all scripture to change to fit it and everyone to simply say -- wow, your hypothesis is right, who cares what scripture says or that it makes EGW contradict herself.


All the quotes by EGW showing God's love and mercy are wonderful quotes, and I fully agree that sin destroys and is evil and God is seeking to save all He possibly can. God is not the author of evil, He is the Redeemer and Deliverer from the shackles of sin and the prison house of death. On the one hand, for created beings to understand the horror of sin, it must be allowed to show it's true harvest, it is totally true that the works of sin lead to disaster, but remember God still does put His limits on sin and evil and at times takes a direct role in putting a stop to it, so it does not overwhelm the good. Yes, God punishes , however, God chooses to do it.
He is merciful and long suffering but this will in no wise clear the guilty who reject that mercy.



Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 09:21 AM

dedication - you must have missed the quotations I have given by EJ Waggoner, a man EGW knew very well!

The Cause of the Defeat

There was sin in the camp when Israel went up against Ai, and this was the cause of their defeat. The whole people suffered, not simply because of Achan's sin, but because all had sinned. "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith." [Habakkuk 2:4] Whether they were blinded by "the deceitfulness of sin," and then became exalted in their minds, or whether their self-exaltation led to their sin, is not material; certain it is that the people had given place to sin, and had become self-confident, which is in itself sin. Because of sin they suffered defeat; so long as sin was given a place in their hearts, they could not go on with the conquest of the land; and this again proves that the promised inheritance, into which God was leading them, was such as could be possessed only by righteous people--those who had the righteousness of faith. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.1}

An Unwarranted Assumption

The men who went up to view the country made the people believe that but few men were needed to capture Ai, because it was a small city. But they had no ground for such an assumption. True, Ai was not nearly as large as Jericho, but numbers had nothing to do with the taking of that city. "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down;" and if the Israelites had been only half or even one-tenth as numerous as they were, the result would have been the same. It required the same power to take Ai that it did to take Jericho, namely, the power of God, laid hold of by faith. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.2}

When the men said that but few of the people were needed for the capture of Ai, they assumed that it was their military skill that was to secure the land for them. But that was a grievous error. God had promised to give them the land, and it could not be obtained except as a gift. The mightiest army that the world has ever seen, armed with the most approved weapons of war, could not take it; while a few unarmed men, strong in faith and giving glory to God, could have possessed it with ease. The force that takes the kingdom of heaven is not the force of arms. {1900 EJW, EVCO 381.3}

Defeat not in God's Plan

Another thing that we learn from the story of Ai is that God did not intend that His people should ever suffer defeat, or that in the occupation of the land a single man should lose his life. In ordinary warfare the loss of thirty-six men in an assault upon a strongly fortified city would not be counted great, whether the assault were successful or not; but in taking possession of the land of Canaan it was a terrible reverse. The promise was, "Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you," and "there shall not any man be able to stand before thee," [Joshua 1:8; Joshua 1:5] and now they themselves had been obliged to flee, with the loss of men. The influence that the passage of the Jordan and the capture of Jericho would have had to impress and overawe the heathen, was now broken. Trusting to their own strength, the Israelites had lost the power of God's presence, and had demonstrated their own weakness. {1900 EJW, EVCO 382.1}

The Means of Defence

The fact that it was altogether contrary to God's plan that any of the Israelites should lose their lives in taking possession of the promised land, is further shown by the fact, which may well be noted here, that it was not His design that they should have to fight for the possession of the promised inheritance. We have already seen that numbers and arms had nothing to do with the taking of Jericho, and that when they depended on their weapons, force that in ordinary warfare would have been amply sufficient was of no avail. Recall also the wonderful deliverance from Egypt, and the overthrow of the entire army of Pharaoh, without the lifting of a single weapon or the use of any human power, and that God led the people by the longest and most difficult route in order that they might not see war (Exodus 13 : I8), and then read the following promise:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 382.2}

"If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations are more than I, how can I dispossess them? thou shalt not be afraid of them; but shalt well remember what the Lord thy God did unto Pharoah and to all Egypt; the great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the Lord thy God brought thee out; so shall the Lord thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid. Moreover, the Lord thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed. Thou shalt not be affrighted at them; for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." [Deuteronomy 7:17-21] {1900 EJW, EVCO 383.1}

God to Fight for His People

Just as the Lord did to Pharoah and to all Egypt, so did he promise to do to all the enemies that should set themselves against the progress of the Israelites to the promised land. But the children of Israel did not strike a single blow to effect their deliverance from Egypt and the overthrow of all its armies. When Moses, forty years before, had attempted to deliver Israel by physical force, he most signally failed, and was obliged to flee in disgrace. It was only when he knew the Gospel as the power of God unto salvation, that he was able to lead the people forth without any fear of the wrath of the king. This is conclusive proof that God did not design that they should fight for the possession of the land; and if they did not fight, of course they could not lose any of their number in battle. Read further as to the manner in which God proposed to give them the land:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 383.2}

"I will send My fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land." [Exodus 23:27-30] {1900 EJW, EVCO 384.1}

God's Care for His Defenseless People

When Jacob, years before, sojourned in the same land, with his family, the "terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob." [Genesis 35:5] "When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong; yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; saying, Touch not Mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." [Psalms 105:15] That same power was to bring them into the land, and speedily give them an eternal inheritance in it, for afterward, the Lord, bewailing their unfaithness, said:-- {1900 EJW, EVCO 384.2}

"Oh that My people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in My ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto Him; but their time should have endured for ever." [Psalms 81:13-15] {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.1}

Why the Israelites Fought

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 10:20 AM

No, I didn't miss your comments on AI.

But it didn't address the question.
It skipped over the question and landed us in Ai, not in Jericho.

The battle of Jericho is a remarkable example of what God was willing to do for Israel -- they suffered no defeat -- angels pushed down the walls we are told. They were following in faith what God had commanded even though it was totally out of character with the strategies of warfare.

Yet even at Jericho God expected them to go into Jericho and destroy everyone, except Rahab and her family.
The battle didn't end when the walls came down.
They still had to dispose of the people within the city that God had "given into their hands".

Even when in later battles God sent the hornets, Israel was still to pursue the fleeing enemy.

Even with Gideon, though down to 300 men, and the Midianites killing each other in their confusion, Israel still had to pursue the fleeing enemy.

Now it's perfectly true -- in a world without sin, there is absolutely no fighting.
God never intended wars to take place, or anyone to die. That is not God's way. But sin entered, and sin must be stopped.

All the rationalization is just that -- rationalization.
It was God's intention to
1. Give the land to the Israelites
2. The inhabitants of the land were to be destroyed since their "cup of iniquity" was full (an evaluation only God can make) and He made it quite clear that this was to be done.
3. It really makes no difference to the general topic of this thread, whether they were destroyed by Israel, by a disaster, by angels hands, by whatever -- it was God's purpose to remove them.

So once again, all you (using Waggonner) say is -- it wasn't God's plan..... God simply tolerated Israel in their blindess.
But it WAS God's plan!

Of course that plan, once the land was theirs, included a victorious Israel living in the land and fully worshipping God, and sharing His message to all around-- a city set on a hill.
If they had stayed in their covenant relationship with God, there still would have been the initial wars, but then peace. God's plan was pretty spectacular for these people -- with all nations coming to them to hear about God.
But one of the reasons it didn't happen is because they STOPPED fighting way too soon, leaving idolatrous nations in the land, and started accepting Canaanite idolatry.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 10:30 AM

Well said, Dedication. I appreciate your well-reasoned and clearly-presented posts here. I could not have said it better.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
So once again, all you (using Waggonner) say is -- it wasn't God's plan..... God simply tolerated Israel in their blindess.
But it WAS God's plan!
...
If they had stayed in their covenant relationship with God, there still would have been the initial wars, but then peace.
You have not proven it was God plan. You also are using rationalization to come to your conclusion. I think Waggoner is spot on. To you, the end justifies the means. Killing is necessary to achieve peace. I guess Jesus was wrong about the do to others as you would have them do to you stuff. Satan's methods were right.

God described His plan clearly! Exodus 23:28-31 AKJV And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against you. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before you, until you be increased, and inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red sea even to the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and you shall drive them out before you.

EGW is clear, it was not God's intended plan that they fight, God would go before them. But they refused, and in so doing, greatly increased their troubles. God continued to work with them as quoted in Waggoner above.

When they were at the first preparing to enter Canaan, the undertaking was attended with far less difficulty than now. God had promised His people that if they would obey His voice He would go before them and fight for them; and He would also send hornets to drive out the inhabitants of the land. The fears of the nations had not been generally aroused, and little preparation had been made to oppose their progress. But when the Lord now bade Israel go forward, they must advance against alert and powerful foes, and must contend with large and well-trained armies that had been preparing to resist their approach. {PP 436.4}

In their contest with Og and Sihon the people were brought to the same test beneath which their fathers had so signally failed. But the trial was now far more severe than when God had commanded Israel to go forward. The difficulties in their way had greatly increased since they refused to advance when bidden to do so in the name of the Lord. It is thus that God still tests His people. And if they fail to endure the trial, He brings them again to the same point, and the second time the trial will come closer, and be more severe than the preceding. This is continued until they bear the test, or, if they are still rebellious, God withdraws His light from them and leaves them in darkness. {PP 437.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/09/14 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, your unwillingness to explain the lake of fire is suspicious. It's one of the reasons this thread is soooooo long. If you were to state your belief plainly some of us move on and leave you to your beliefs.

A: I have presented it though you do not discern it, for you reject the foundation, or at minimum, do not wish to to explore the base. I can't make you, nor do I wish to make you, that is your choice.

By "base" I assume you mean - God is love. By "foundation" I assume you mean - God does not destroy. The truth is, however, you have refused to plainly explain your view of the lake of fire. You also refuse to repost links to websites that share your view. Again, it seems suspicious. By doing so you are delaying the successful conclusion of this very, very long thread. I suspect you believe the fire that kills sinners is symbolic of the emotional, spiritual suffering that causes them to die and the fire that burns their corpses is literal.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 04:27 AM

Kland, I have answered the following questions the way I think you believe. How did I do?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong? Wrong.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong? Right.

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

You have yet to address this passage. It agrees with the questions posted above. Do you agree?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

You have yet to address this passage.


Originally Posted By: kland
Isn't this different than what we've been talking about? Until you recognize right from wrong, is there any point in addressing any other quotes?

You didn't answer the questions. Why not? You didn't address the quote. Why not? You and APL both have a habit of ignoring pertinent comments, quotes, and questions.
Actually I was questioning the pertinence of them. Shall we assume they are pertinent and related to what was being discussed because you say so? Shall we talk about something else and avoid what we were talking about because you say it's you who says it's "pertinent"?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
This is a question for APL only. Regarding the golden calf incident, Ellen White says:
Quote:
The Israelites had been guilty of treason, and that against a King who had loaded them with benefits and whose authority they had voluntarily pledged themselves to obey. That the divine government might be maintained justice must be visited upon the traitors. Yet even here God's mercy was displayed. While He maintained His law, He granted freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance to all. Only those were cut off who persisted in rebellion. {PP 324.3}

In reading this, do you see a definition of justice being given or only mercy?


Justice and mercy.
Thanks. I wasn't sure.

I don't believe I had heard of Strub before, but unlike dedication, I had heard about them picking up arms from the dead Egyptians.
After looking up and reading the texts, I think you were wondering if I was viewing God's "justice" as others here. I understand God's justice is not like man's and others here's "justice". What I was asking is, is this where justice is defined that can be shown to the others or is only mercy defined here. That is, do you see it as saying justice is "freedom of choice" and mercy is "opportunity for repentance" or is justice only mentioned by "maintained His law" and mercy defined as "freedom of choice and opportunity for repentance"?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 08:03 PM

kland - most here think of justice as administering punishment. The justice, the righteousness of God is God doing the right and correct thing. This is in giving freedom of choice with its inherent consequences. Often in the OT we see justice in righting wrongs. Doing justice is something you do to the afflicted, the fatherless. For the transgressor, justice is allowing them to have their choice. Mercy is overruling the consequences to allow for repentance.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was
looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this.
The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}
The same error is repeated today.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Kland
A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his damn to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

A man withdraws his protection and permits his fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits water to flood and kill people. Right or wrong?

Jesus withdraws His protection and permits fire to burn and kill people. Right or wrong?

K: Isn't this different than what we've been talking about? Until you recognize right from wrong, is there any point in addressing any other quotes?

M: You didn't answer the questions. Why not?

K: Actually I was questioning the pertinence of them. Shall we assume they are pertinent and related to what was being discussed because you say so? Shall we talk about something else and avoid what we were talking about because you say it's you who says it's "pertinent"?

You believe I do not know the difference between right and wrong because I believe Jesus can punish people in ways we cannot. The quote below affirms my belief. You have refused to address the quote. I also posted questions whose obvious answers affirm my belief. However, you believe they are off topic or off point. Why?

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

You have yet to address this passage. Why not?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/10/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, your unwillingness to explain the lake of fire is suspicious. It's one of the reasons this thread is soooooo long. If you were to state your belief plainly some of us move on and leave you to your beliefs.

A: I have presented it though you do not discern it, for you reject the foundation, or at minimum, do not wish to to explore the base. I can't make you, nor do I wish to make you, that is your choice.

By "base" I assume you mean - God is love. By "foundation" I assume you mean - God does not destroy. The truth is, however, you have refused to plainly explain your view of the lake of fire. You also refuse to repost links to websites that share your view. Again, it seems suspicious. By doing so you are delaying the successful conclusion of this very, very long thread.

I suspect you believe the fire that kills sinners is symbolic of the emotional, spiritual suffering that causes them to die and the fire that burns their corpses is literal. Am I right?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 06:11 AM

Quote:
Am I right?
NO.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
God wont let me go down like that.
Would you feel God let you down if you found out at the 2nd coming that God doesn't kill? Would you feel disappointed?



That is a fair question but it is obvious that you intended it as a barb. You want me to admit that I would be dissapointed that the wicked are not destroyed by God? You want me to be like the ones who were going to stone Mary? He who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone. I have many loved ones who I am certain have no real love for God, and I fear for them every day. Does this answer your question?

The important thing is to not let symantics confuse the subject. Is the execution of judgment killing? Yes. Is it murder? NO!!! Men have no right to kill unless the law demands it, God is the perfect modeler of justice and mercy and those who trust Him trust His judgments because they are perfect. His word is the final word, and He casts Satan and the beast and it's image into the lake of fire, are you going to change scripture?


If there was a crewman on board a ship who set out to make the good captain out to be a hypocrite so he could overthrow his position, is it a sin for the captain to detain and punish the one who wanted to mutiny which is punishable by death? Is it not in the best interest for all on board for the correct light to be shed on the accusations? Would it then be a sin for the sentence of death to be executed?

God has been accused by Satan, and we were intended to be God's witnesses. Satan wanted to kill God, and justice demands that sin be paid for. Like Judas, Satan has no redeemer because of how guilty his actions were before the universe in the murder of the only redeemer. He set out to kill God and justice demands the life of the sinner. Satan took men who were innocent and turned their hearts to him in rebellion, so in our probation we prove our dedication. Who we serve is brought out in how we interpret scripture. Either we have the Holy Spirit guiding our thoughts through the word or we don't, there is no middle ground. There are many who have sympathy for the devil and they interpret scripture in that light. Are they correct? We'll see.

God doesn't murder because that is against His commandments, but God does execute justice after the judgment. This is His strange act, and I know this because of the level of trust I have for my Father and His Spirit through the Son and what He has taught me on this subject.

So since the question has been raised, let me ask you this... would you be embarassed if you saw that the wrath of God kills the wicked twice? Those who pierced Christ die three times.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 04:58 PM

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Faith is believing in and relying on EVERY WORD of God as if our life depends on it. But then you've got men inside the church taking the plain statements of God and trying to change the meanings because they cannot see the righteousness and terrible majesty of God.

It is a far greater sin for these lies to be taught as if motivated by God to correct the church. Great is the sin of those who change the word to mean something else. GREAT!!!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: By "base" I assume you mean - God is love. By "foundation" I assume you mean - God does not destroy. The truth is, however, you have refused to plainly explain your view of the lake of fire. You also refuse to repost links to websites that share your view. Again, it seems suspicious. By doing so you are delaying the successful conclusion of this very, very long thread. I suspect you believe the fire that kills sinners is symbolic of the emotional, spiritual suffering that causes them to die and the fire that burns their corpses is literal. Am I right?

A: NO.

Either you believe the fire that consumes sinners is symbolic and the fire that cleanses the earth is literal or you believe both fires are literal. There is no other option.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 08:23 PM

The priests of Baal witness with consternation the wonderful revelation of Jehovah's power. Yet even in their discomfiture and in the presence of divine glory, they refuse to repent of their evil-doing. They would still remain the prophets of Baal. Thus they showed themselves ripe for destruction. That repentant Israel may be protected from the allurements of those who have taught them to worship Baal, Elijah is directed by the Lord to destroy these false teachers. The anger of the people has already been aroused against the leaders in transgression; and when Elijah gives the command, "Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape," they are ready to obey. They seize the priests, and take them to the brook Kishon, and there, before the close of the day that marked the beginning of decided reform, the ministers of Baal are slain. Not one is permitted to live. {PK 153.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/11/14 11:50 PM

That is exactly right M&M. Every story of fire coming down out of heaven is directly connected to judgment. Nadab and Abihu were destroyed by the same righteous fire that lit the coals of the altar of incense in the sanctuary. They counterfeited God's righteous fire and they were consumed. Even in the last days when Satan counterfeits the fire from heaven through spiritualism it is connected to judgment because those who are deceived cross over the line of God's forbearance.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/12/14 08:01 PM

2 Kings
1:9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.
1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
1:11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
1:13 And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight.
1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.

Twice Ahaziah sent a company of soldiers to intimidate the prophet, and twice the wrath of God fell upon them in judgment. The third company of soldiers humbled themselves before God; and their captain, as he approached the Lord's messenger, "fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight." {PK 208.3}

APL and Kland, it's hard to believe you guys think this story reflects the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/12/14 08:20 PM

Originally Posted By: jsot
Every story of fire coming down out of heaven is directly connected to judgment.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and has burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/12/14 08:57 PM

Chapter 42 - The Controversy Ended

The third advent

At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea[male, female and old and young, including children]. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. {GC 662.1}

The Power of truth
Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: “Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!” It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion.

No Second Probation
They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. {GC 662.2}

Christ Lands on Earth
Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: “The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.” “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, ... and there shall be a very great valley.” “And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one.” Zechariah 14:5; Zechariah 14:4; Zechariah 14:9.

The City Descends
As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

A preparation for war
Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan’s captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding.

Continued deception because he cannot compel
Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny.

Satan works miracles to deceive
The presence of Christ having been removed[hidden in the city], Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom. {GC 663.1}

A fighting people
In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell. {GC 664.1}

Councils of war
Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem.

Weapons are made
All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war.

Training begins
Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

The attack begins – after a time!
At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on—an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal[because it also contains all the women and children who have rejected mercy]. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van[the spearhead], and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle.

They have been well trained
Kings and warriors are in his train[immediately behind his group], and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried [or closely packed] ranks advance over the earth’s broken and uneven surface to the City of God.

The gates are closed
By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}

Above the city
Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son.

The crystal sea (lake of fire)
The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

The different groups around the throne

Those like Saul of Tarsus
Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion.

The 144,000
Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void,

The martyrs
and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith.

The innumerable company
And beyond is the “great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, ... before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.” Revelation 7:9.

The reward of the saints
Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}

Glory to Christ
The redeemed raise a song of praise that echoes and re-echoes through the vaults of heaven: “Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” Revelation 7:10. And angel and seraph unite their voices in adoration. As the redeemed have beheld the power and malignity of Satan, they have seen, as never before, that no power but that of Christ could have made them conquerors. In all that shining throng there are none to ascribe salvation to themselves, as if they had prevailed by their own power and goodness. Nothing is said of what they have done or suffered; but the burden of every song, the keynote of every anthem, is: Salvation [belongs to] to our God and unto the Lamb. {GC 665.3}

The final coronation scene
In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place.

The final judgment
And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:11-12. {GC 666.1}

The knowledge of their rejection
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart—all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

The movie of Christian history

Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam’s temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. The Saviour’s lowly birth; His early life of simplicity and obedience; His baptism in Jordan; the fast and temptation in the wilderness; His public ministry, unfolding to men heaven’s most precious blessings; the days crowded with deeds of love and mercy, the nights of prayer and watching in the solitude of the mountains; the plottings of envy, hate, and malice which repaid His benefits; the awful, mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the crushing weight of the sins of the whole world; His betrayal into the hands of the murderous mob; the fearful events of that night of horror—the unresisting prisoner, forsaken by His best-loved disciples, rudely hurried through the streets of Jerusalem; the Son of God exultingly displayed before Annas, arraigned in the high priest’s palace, in the judgment hall of Pilate, before the cowardly and cruel Herod, mocked, insulted, tortured, and condemned to die—all are vividly portrayed. {GC 666.3}

The crucifixion
And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes—the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world’s Redeemer yielded up His life. {GC 667.1}

All are convicted
The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. Herod, who slew the innocent children of Bethlehem that he might destroy the King of Israel; the base Herodias, upon whose guilty soul rests the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, timeserving Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the priests and rulers and the maddened throng who cried, “His blood be on us, and on our children!”—all behold the enormity of their guilt. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour’s feet, exclaiming: “He died for me!” {GC 667.2}

Both righteous and rejecter watch
Amid the ransomed throng are the apostles of Christ, the heroic Paul, the ardent Peter, the loved and loving John, and their truehearted brethren, and with them the vast host of martyrs; while outside the walls, with every vile and abominable thing, are those by whom they were persecuted, imprisoned, and slain. There is Nero, that monster of cruelty and vice, beholding the joy and exaltation of those whom he once tortured, and in whose extremest anguish he found satanic delight. His mother is there to witness the result of her own work; to see how the evil stamp of character transmitted to her son, the passions encouraged and developed by her influence and example, have borne fruit in crimes that caused the world to shudder. {GC 667.3}

The later participants in persecution
There are papist priests and prelates, who claimed to be Christ’s ambassadors, yet employed the rack, the dungeon, and the stake to control the consciences of His people. There are the proud pontiffs who exalted themselves above God and presumed to change the law of the Most High. Those pretended fathers of the church have an account to render to God from which they would fain be excused. Too late they are made to see that the Omniscient One is jealous of His law and that He will in no wise clear the guilty. They learn now that Christ identifies His interest with that of His suffering people; and they feel the force of His own words: “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.” Matthew 25:40. {GC 668.1}

The sentence of the 2nd death
The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them [because it is their choice]. {GC 668.2}

The result of their choice
It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion [but still refuse to be saved]. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. “All this,” cries the lost soul, “I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair.” All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: “We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us.” {GC 668.3}

The standard of righteousness
As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law [the Ten Commandments], the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, “Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints” (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life. {GC 668.4}

Lucifer’s successor
Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, “son of the morning;” how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. {GC 669.1}

Satan rethinks his history
Memory recalls the home of his innocence and purity, the peace and content that were his until he indulged in murmuring against God, and envy of Christ. His accusations, his rebellion, his deceptions to gain the sympathy and support of the angels, his stubborn persistence in making no effort for self-recovery when God would have granted him forgiveness—all come vividly before him. He reviews his work among men and its results—the enmity of man toward his fellow man, the terrible destruction of life, the rise and fall of kingdoms, the overturning of thrones, the long succession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions. He recalls his constant efforts to oppose the work of Christ and to sink man lower and lower. He sees that his hellish plots have been powerless to destroy those who have put their trust in Jesus. As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin. He has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false. Again and again, in the progress of the great controversy, he has been defeated and compelled to yield. He knows too well the power and majesty of the Eternal. {GC 669.2}

Satan (the adversary) unmasked
The aim of the great rebel has ever been to justify himself and to prove the divine government responsible for the rebellion. To this end he has bent all the power of his giant intellect. He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated and the history and character of Satan disclosed.

The rejecters see the truth
In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy His people, and take possession of the City of God, the archdeceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause.
The righteous see the truth
Christ’s followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence. {GC 670.1}

A full confession of justice
Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}

The rebellion exposed
“Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest.”
Revelation 15:4. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan’s rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan’s own works have condemned him. God’s wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. “All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee.” Psalms 145:10.

An eternal witness
The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God’s law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: “Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.” {GC 670.3}

The purpose of the sacrifice
Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man’s behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him—that He might bring many sons unto glory—that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: “Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages.” And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.” Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}

A suicidal anger
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God’s justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end.

They kill each other
The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

The destruction of the wicked is self-imposed
Saith the Lord: “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.”

Jesus still blames Himself for the deaths
“I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:6-8; Ezekiel 28:16-19. {GC 672.1}

Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire
“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The destruction of sin (and therefore sinners)
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to [or by the depth of] their deeds.”

Satan the last
The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan [the scapegoat], he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

The final deliverance
Satan’s work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God’s creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying: “Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

The "ark" of His covenant
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalms 84:11. {GC 673.3}

The emergence of the new world
“I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

One reminder alone
One reminder alone remains: Our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of His crucifixion. Upon His wounded head, upon His side, His hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought. Says the prophet, beholding Christ in His glory: “He had bright beams coming out of His side: and there was the hiding of His power.” Habakkuk 3:4, margin. That pierced side whence flowed the crimson stream that reconciled man to God—there is the Saviour’s glory, there “the hiding of His power.” “Mighty to save,” through the sacrifice of redemption, He was therefore strong to execute justice upon them that despised God’s mercy. And the tokens of His humiliation are His highest honor; through the eternal ages the wounds of Calvary will show forth His praise and declare His power. {GC 674.2}

The earth renewed
“O Tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto Thee shall it come, even the first dominion.” Micah 4:8. The time has come to which holy men have looked with longing since the flaming sword barred the first pair from Eden, the time for “the redemption of the purchased possession.” Ephesians 1:14. The earth originally given to man as his kingdom, betrayed by him into the hands of Satan, and so long held by the mighty foe, has been brought back by the great plan of redemption. All that was lost by sin has been restored. “Thus saith the Lord ... that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited.Isaiah 45:18. God’s original purpose in the creation of the earth is fulfilled as it is made the eternal abode of the redeemed. “The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever.” Psalms 37:29. {GC 674.3}

A real world
A fear of making the future inheritance seem too material has led many to spiritualize away the very truths which lead us to look upon it as our home. Christ assured His disciples that He went to prepare mansions for them in the Father’s house. Those who accept the teachings of God’s word will not be wholly ignorant concerning the heavenly abode. And yet, “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9. Human language is inadequate to describe the reward of the righteous. It will be known only to those who behold it. No finite mind can comprehend the glory of the Paradise of God. {GC 674.4}

A whole planet
In the Bible the inheritance of the saved is called “a country [by this the Spirit means a planeet, Romans 4:13].” Hebrews 11:14-16. There the heavenly Shepherd leads His flock to fountains of living waters. The tree of life yields its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations. There are ever-flowing streams, clear as crystal, and beside them waving trees cast their shadows upon the paths prepared for the ransomed of the Lord. There the wide-spreading plains swell into hills of beauty, and the mountains of God rear their lofty summits. On those peaceful plains, beside those living streams, God’s people, so long pilgrims and wanderers, shall find a home. {GC 675.1}

A peaceful home
“My people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places.” “Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.” “They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: ... Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.Isaiah 32:18; Isaiah 60:18; Isaiah 65:21-22. {GC 675.2}

No death or persecution
There, “the wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” “Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree.” “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; ... and a little child shall lead them.” “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” saith the Lord. Isaiah 35:1; Isaiah 55:13; Isaiah 11:6; Isaiah 11:9. {GC 675.3}

No sickness or death
Pain cannot exist in the atmosphere of heaven. There will be no more tears, no funeral trains, no badges of mourning. “There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying: ... for the former things are passed away.” “The inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.” Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 33:24. {GC 676.1}

The capital of the universe
There is the New Jerusalem, the metropolis of the glorified new earth, “a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.” “Her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.” “The nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.” Saith the Lord: “I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people.” “The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.” Isaiah 62:3; Revelation 21:11; Revelation 21:24; Isaiah 65:19; Revelation 21:3. {GC 676.2}

Ample energy
In the City of God “there shall be no night.” None will need or desire repose. There will be no weariness in doing the will of God and offering praise to His name. We shall ever feel the freshness of the morning and shall ever be far from its close. “And they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light.” Revelation 22:5. The light of the sun will be superseded by a radiance which is not painfully dazzling, yet which immeasurably surpasses the brightness of our noontide. The glory of God and the Lamb floods the Holy City with unfading light. The redeemed walk in the sunless glory of perpetual day. {GC 676.3}

No restrictive veil
“I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 21:22. The people of God are privileged to hold open communion with the Father and the Son. “Now we see through a glass, darkly.” 1 Corinthians 13:12. We behold the image of God reflected, as in a mirror, in the works of nature and in His dealings with men; but then we shall see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between. We shall stand in His presence and behold the glory of His countenance. {GC 676.4}

The family circle
There the redeemed shall know, even as also they are known. The loves and sympathies which God Himself has planted in the soul shall there find truest and sweetest exercise. The pure communion with holy beings, the harmonious social life with the blessed angels and with the faithful ones of all ages who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, the sacred ties that bind together “the whole family in heaven and earth” (Ephesians 3:15)—these help to constitute the happiness of the redeemed. {GC 677.1}

The acquirement of knowledge
There, immortal minds will contemplate with never-failing delight the wonders of creative power, the mysteries of redeeming love. There will be no cruel, deceiving foe to tempt to forgetfulness of God. Every faculty will be developed, every capacity increased. The acquirement of knowledge will not weary the mind or exhaust the energies. There the grandest enterprises may be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations reached, the highest ambitions realized; and still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of mind and soul and body. {GC 677.2}

A universe to explore
All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God’s redeemed. Unfettered by mortality, they wing their tireless flight to worlds afar—worlds that thrilled with sorrow at the spectacle of human woe and rang with songs of gladness at the tidings of a ransomed soul. With unutterable delight the children of earth enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings. They share the treasures of knowledge and understanding gained through ages upon ages in contemplation of God’s handiwork. With undimmed vision they gaze upon the glory of creation—suns and stars and systems, all in their appointed order circling the throne of Deity. Upon all things, from the least to the greatest, the Creator’s name is written, and in all are the riches of His power displayed. {GC 677.3}

A growing understanding of redemption
And the years of eternity, as they roll, will bring richer and still more glorious revelations of God and of Christ. As knowledge is progressive, so will love, reverence, and happiness increase. The more men learn of God, the greater will be their admiration of His character. As Jesus opens before them the riches of redemption and the amazing achievements in the great controversy with Satan, the hearts of the ransomed thrill with more fervent devotion, and with more rapturous joy they sweep the harps of gold; and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of voices unite to swell the mighty chorus of praise. {GC 678.1}

Continual praise
“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13. {GC 678.2}

One pulse of harmony
The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. {GC 678.3}

The beginning of eternity ……
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/13/14 04:50 AM

The Good News Bible says it this way:
Quote:
Job 1:16 Before he had finished speaking, another servant came and said, "Lightning struck the sheep and the shepherds and killed them all. I am the only one who escaped to tell you."

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
Every story of fire coming down out of heaven is directly connected to judgment.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and has burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/13/14 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The crystal sea (lake of fire)

The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

The radiant brightness of God's presence flooding the whole the earth is the lake of fire.

Originally Posted By: APL
Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [APL: All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Murder and self-acting nature turns the crystal sea into a lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/13/14 05:49 AM

APL, what is the lake of fire? It sounds like you are saying it is a mixture of 1) the radiant brightness of God's presence and 2) the blood of sinners.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/13/14 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

You believe I do not know the difference between right and wrong because I believe Jesus can punish people in ways we cannot. The quote below affirms my belief. You have refused to address the quote. I also posted questions whose obvious answers affirm my belief. However, you believe they are off topic or off point. Why?

No, I believe you do not know the difference between right and wrong because you cannot define the difference. You only define the difference based upon who is doing the act which means you do not distinguish the difference of the act.

Quote:

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

You have yet to address this passage. Why not?

Because before we can discuss what the "punishment" of God is, we have to know whether an act is wrong or right in and of itself, not because some certain one is doing it.

Until you can distinguish between right and wrong, nothing else whatever APL, myself, or others say regarding any specific passage will make absolutely no sense to you because you believe God can do wrong acts, but call them right.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/13/14 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

So since the question has been raised, let me ask you this... would you be embarassed if you saw that the wrath of God kills the wicked twice? Those who pierced Christ die three times.
No, you did not answer my question. But I'll answer yours. If I thought god would directly and intentionally cause pain, suffering, and death to people, whether once, twice, or three times, I would become the most vicious god-hating infidel and want nothing to do with him!


Quote:
The important thing is to not let symantics confuse the subject. Is the execution of judgment killing? Yes. Is it murder? NO!!! Men have no right to kill unless the law demands it, God is the perfect modeler of justice and mercy and those who trust Him trust His judgments because they are perfect.
Though you do not make the distinction between right and wrong, you can make the distinction between murder and killing?

Can you clearly and concisely distinguish between murder and killing? Green could not. Maybe you can? Distinguish it so that we can use that guideline to compare against anyone and be able to determine whether they killed or murdered.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/14/14 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

M: You have yet to address this passage. Why not?

K: Because before we can discuss what the "punishment" of God is, we have to know whether an act is wrong or right in and of itself, not because some certain one is doing it.
Until you can distinguish between right and wrong, nothing else whatever APL, myself, or others say regarding any specific passage will make absolutely no sense to you because you believe God can do wrong acts, but call them right.

The passage above defines right and wrong. It clearly says it is right for Jesus do something that would be wrong for us to do. For example, Jesus drowns and burns sinners. It is right. But it would be wrong for us to do it. So, as you can see, it makes all the difference in world who does what as to whether or not it is right or wrong.

Another example, it is right for you to spank your children when they deserve it. But it would be wrong for me to do it.

Another example, it was wrong for King Saul not to kill King Agag. And it was right for Samuel to do it.

Another example, it was right for Jesus to burn Nadab and Abihu to death. But it would have been wrong for Moses to do it.

Another example, it was right for Jesus to burn the two bands of fifty to death. But it would have been wrong for Elijah to do it.

Once again, as you can see, contrary to your belief, it matters very much who is doing what as to whether or not the act itself is right or wrong.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 01:03 AM

So, you are saying there is no right or wrong acts. Focus on "acts".
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 05:38 AM

Yes, there are things even God cannot do. Acts that are wrong. For example, God cannot act selfishly. But the things I posted above make it clear there are acts Jesus can do that would be wrong for us to do. You seem to reject this truth. Your list of acts God cannot do includes things He clearly does.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 05:32 PM

Why is acting selfishly wrong? What is the standard to determine that it's wrong?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 07:58 PM

Selfishness is the root of all sinning. Jesus set the standard. The law reflects it. Jesus employs fire and water to kill sinners. He also commands holy angels and righteous people to kill criminals and combatants. He even uses His enemies to kill sinners.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 08:49 PM

Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 10:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Selfishness is the root of all sinning. Jesus set the standard. The law reflects it. Jesus employs fire and water to kill sinners. He also commands holy angels and righteous people to kill criminals and combatants. He even uses His enemies to kill sinners.
There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/15/14 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!
Sometimes it's done for a good reason and sometimes it's done for a bad reason. It starts getting a little confusing when one believes in predestination and that evil people are employed by God to do evil acts for a good reason. When does God's manipulations of their actions stop and their choice and responsibility for their actions start? How does one determine whether they are under control of God to do evil acts for good or they are just doing evil acts for evil? How does one determine if the Inquisition was a "good" or "evil" thing when it was to punish the heretics, those who were "disagreeable"? Was God manipulating them or they were making evil choices? Hmmmm.... hard questions to answer!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 04:42 AM

1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 04:48 AM

Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:

1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 04:54 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The crystal sea (lake of fire)

The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

The radiant brightness of God's presence flooding the whole the earth is the lake of fire.

Originally Posted By: APL
Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [APL: All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Murder and self-acting nature turns the crystal sea into a lake of fire.

PS - APL, what is the lake of fire? It sounds like you are saying it is a mixture of 1) the radiant brightness of God's presence and 2) the blood of sinners.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 05:00 AM

Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 07:51 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Thus, burning people to death and drowning them is not an evil act. Got it! GOOD NEWS. Illuminating!


Are you a modern Babel builder?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Babel builders had indulged the spirit of murmuring against God. Instead of gratefully remembering His mercy to Adam and His gracious covenant with Noah, they had complained of His severity in expelling the first pair from Eden and destroying the world by a flood. But while they murmured against God as arbitrary and severe, they were accepting the rule of the cruelest of tyrants. Satan was seeking to bring contempt upon the sacrificial offerings that prefigured the death of Christ; and as the minds of the people were darkened by idolatry, he led them to counterfeit these offerings and sacrifice their own children upon the altars of their gods. As men turned away from God, the divine attributes--justice, purity, and love--were supplanted by oppression, violence, and brutality. {PP 120.3}


The ancient Babel builders knew that God had destroyed the world by flood. It seems the modern ones have forgotten this.

But the worst part of the forgetfulness is the lack of gratitude toward God in remembering His mercy and His covenant with us. His praise should be ever upon our lips.

Praise God!

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 09:53 AM

Hm, lets see, green asks if I am a Babel builder, then quotes the fact that the Babel builders viewed God as arbitrary and severe! Green, is God a severe judge??? You say HE will burn and torture sinners! And he drowned them in the flood, right??? Seems that you are accusing me of your ideas. Satan accused God of having his own character. Was God the direct cause of the flood? You say yes.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.


MM does not understand. Only the Spirit can convict him of the truth. God withdrawing his protection from the serpents was not an arbitrary punishment inflicted on the people. God was being rejected by the people. They called HIM their worst enemy. God can not remain where He is not wanted. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 05:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Selfishness is the root of all sinning. Jesus set the standard. The law reflects it. Jesus employs fire and water to kill sinners. He also commands holy angels and righteous people to kill criminals and combatants. He even uses His enemies to kill sinners.
There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 07:58 PM

Kland, I addressed your comment and question in the following way:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
K: There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?

M: Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:

1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 08:00 PM

Both APL and Kland ignored this post and these passages:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 08:02 PM

Kland, since you agree with me (see below) please eplain our differences:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM does not understand. Only the Spirit can convict him of the truth. God withdrawing his protection from the serpents was not an arbitrary punishment inflicted on the people. God was being rejected by the people. They called HIM their worst enemy. God can not remain where He is not wanted. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

You are mistaken, APL. Jesus did not withdraw from Israel. He permitted the snakes to bite and kill targeted people. The rest of the people He protected.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
The crystal sea (lake of fire)

The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

The radiant brightness of God's presence flooding the whole the earth is the lake of fire.

Originally Posted By: APL
Murder makes the crystal sea become the lake of fire

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; Isaiah 34:2; Psalms 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven [APL: All natural protective laws have been rejected by the mob] . The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Murder and self-acting nature turns the crystal sea into a lake of fire.

APL, what is the lake of fire? It sounds like you are saying it is a mixture of 1) the radiant brightness of God's presence and 2) the blood of sinners.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/16/14 09:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Both APL and Kland ignored this post and these passages:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}
GC35-37 answers HOW this is done.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 07:22 AM

The lake of fire is literal fire that will burn up every trace of sin on this whole planet as well as everything in space surrounding the earth.

Quote:
3 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.


Though the very glory of God is a consuming fire to sin and sinners, it could also very well include a cause and effect catalyse. For we know the lost will have spent time marshalling and preparing for war against God's city. They come fully armed having been persuaded by satan that they could take the city by force.
They are halted in their purposes by God vividly demonstrating all that was done to save them, and how they had rejected salvation.

What do they do next? They acknowledge that God's sentence on them was just. Satan jumps up and starts screaming orders to attack, but now the people realize it is hopeless and turn on him and each other in rage with the "fury of demons".

The fire that results may involve setting off of weapons of destruction, which they themselves had prepared. There will also be volcanic action (fire from beneath) and fire from above, there is no doubt that God makes sure the fire will do a thorough work of completely cleansing the earth and even the surrounding "heavens" of all traces of sin. Everything will be completely burned up -- (except the city and God's people inside)




This fire is NOT the crystal sea.

The "fire" mentioned in connection with the crystal sea is mentioned as a simile -- (as it were)
painting a picture in our minds of the sparkling, brilliant glory of the scene, not of a literal burning fire devouring everything in its path.

Quote:
Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God,"



The bottom line in all this is --

God is perfectly righteous in all His doings.
"Longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come....
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 07:47 AM

Read what the Bible says about the what happens to sinners.
Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Isaiah 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonished at you; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

You will note who is being spoken about in the 3rd reference.

Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, I addressed your comment and question in the following way:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
K: There's some passage APL quotes about Jesus on earth showed how God was. I'm sure you are familiar with it. Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"?

M: Kland, you believe Jesus used the withdraw and permit principle of punishment in the OT. For example:

1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.
MM, I asked, "Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"? I don't see how your response addresses this in any way.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, since you agree with me (see below) please eplain our differences:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, please answer the following questions:

1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

PS - I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.
The only thing I agree with you on this is that these questions do not in any way address the base underlying presumptions.

You need to remove the whitewash and look into the crypt.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 07:44 PM

He is attacking the very foundation of your doctrinal framework, showing that you do not really believe that God's actions are limited to the same actions Jesus performed during His 33 years here. For example, God permitted the fiery serpents to attack and kill the Israelites, but Jesus never did that in the NT. That disproves the idea that "Jesus came to show us what God is like" means "God will not do anything Jesus didn't do in the NT."
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 08:18 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

APL: GC35-37 answers HOW this is done.

Actually, GC 35-37 describes one of several ways Jesus punishes and kills sinners. The first passages posted above describes Jesus employing fire and water to punish and kill sinners. Nature is not self-acting. It cannot burn or drown sinners without Jesus empowering it to act. Jesus does not turn nature lose and let it punish and kill sinners. The second passage posted above describes Jesus using His enemies to punish and kill sinners. They serve as His ordained minsters of wrath.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

M: The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.

K: MM, I asked, "Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"? I don't see how your response addresses this in any way.

You agree with me that Jesus did things in the OT He didn't do in the NT (while here in the flesh). Ellen White's comment about Jesus in the NT does not undermine what she wrote about Jesus in the OT. "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." {DA 799.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
1. A man withdraws his protection and permits his snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is his act right or wrong? I believe it is wrong. Do you agree?

2. Jesus withdraws His protection and permits snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Is His act right or wrong? I believe it is right. Do you agree?

M: I am absolutely certain you agree with me on both accounts. However, I am also pretty certain you are going to dodge answering these two questions.

K: The only thing I agree with you on this is that these questions do not in any way address the base underlying presumptions. You need to remove the whitewash and look into the crypt.

But the truth still stands - You agree with me. You believe Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to wreak havoc within the limits He sets and enforces. You have absolutely no problem with Jesus doing it. However, if anyone else did it you would find them guilty of wrongdoing. So, you see, you agree with me that Jesus can do "strange acts" that would be wrong and evil for anyone else to do.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/17/14 09:50 PM

Quoting R. Ainslie (just some obscure author in Joe's Story - A simply version of the Bible book of Job)

God does not hurt
God does not punish
God does not condemn
God does not destroy
at any time
in any place
in any way
for any reason
 
Sin does all of these!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 04:27 AM

Quoting Paul (a prominent inspired author of the Holy Bible):

1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy . . . saith the LORD.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 05:38 AM

Quote the whole verse MM:
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

God destroys just as He sent the serpents. God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin, as another inspired writer has penned. Satan is the destroyer, as the same writer has penned. The sinner brings the punishment on himself, as the same inspired writer has penned. Fits what I quoted previously!
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Quoting R. Ainslie (just some obscure author in Joe's Story - A simply version of the Bible book of Job)

God does not hurt
God does not punish
God does not condemn
God does not destroy
at any time
in any place
in any way
for any reason
 
Sin does all of these!

While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. {PP 628.1}

It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few. Furthermore, as the people had cast off their allegiance to God, they had forfeited the divine protection, and, deprived of their defense, the whole nation was exposed to the power of their enemies. Had not the evil been promptly put away, they would soon have fallen a prey to their numerous and powerful foes. It was necessary for the good of Israel, and also as a lesson to all succeeding generations, that crime should be promptly punished. And it was no less a mercy to the sinners themselves that they should be cut short in their evil course. Had their life been spared, the same spirit that led them to rebel against God would have been manifested in hatred and strife among themselves, and they would eventually have destroyed one another. It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}

This judgment and punisment executed in love and mercy you would credit sin as the source?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 07:40 AM

Furthermore:

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. {GC 539.3}

Who will punish? Will sin execute justice?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Furthermore:

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. {GC 539.3}

Who will punish? Will sin execute justice?

No question - sinners will die! And it will be horrible. You seem to have listened to the series "The Science of Sin and Salvation". Continue to listen. Lecture 13 is titles, "The End of Sin and Sinners".
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 07:30 PM

But who/what executes justice, judgment, and punishment in love and mercy? According to my quotes, God does. According to your quote, God never does.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 08:56 PM

APL, there are several ways Jesus punishes and kills sinners. You are advocating one of them. It is unnatural and unbiblical to force the Bible and the SOP to fit the one way you favor. Sin will not destroy sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus will use fire to punish and kill sin, hell, death, and sinners in the lake of fire.

The following passage is one many that makes it clear Jesus is the one who punishes and kills sinners. He uses several different ways to accomplish His plan and purpose of punishment - including your favorite one.

Quote:
Leviticus
26:13 I [am] the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your [high] ways shall be desolate.
26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26:26 [And] when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver [you] your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

However, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment requires Jesus doing something that results in sinners suffering and dying. Jesus is responsible. Otherwise it wouldn't happen.

Breaking the Sabbath, for example, does not naturally result in the long list of terrible things enumerated in the passage above. There is nothing about doing unnecessary work on the Sabbath that causes nature to go out of whack. Sabbath breaking does not cause earthquakes, tornadoes, or flooding. Jesus either causes it Himself, or He commands holy angels to do it, or He permits evil angels to do it. It is punishment - not cause and effect.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Who will punish? Will sin execute justice?
John 12:47-48 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them , I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things were made by His word. The word is the judge. All things work by laws that God has created. "God has ordained laws for the government not only of all living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything, whether great or small, animate or inanimate, is under fixed laws which cannot be disregarded. There are no exceptions to this rule."

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}
'
Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}

Does God have to come in and inflict the punishment for sin? NO NO NO. SIN pays its wage, death. Does God have to come down and inflict lung cancer on a smoker? If you do not take care of your teeth, does God have to come down and put cavities in your teeth? NO. The words that God has spoken will be the judge of both the righteous and the sinner. Cause and effect. And yes MM, this includes the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not an arbitrary rule given by God as you want to believe, whose transgression has no inherent consequences for its transgression. Sin is the problem, not God. "The Saviour in His teachings ever showed the relation between cause and effect."
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/18/14 11:54 PM

It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}

By whom/what was crime "punished with swift and terrible severity"? Was it sin that did this "in love"?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}
YES! But what had the people done? They had rejected God and taken up the sword. They were never to fight!

These then are the terrible things that would have come upon the transgressors themselves, the Israelites as a nation, and the world in general if God had done nothing for them. The worst possible results would have eventuated.

The love of God, that marvelous, infinite, and unchangeable love, drove Him to tell them how they could save themselves from so terrible a fate. He could no longer do it for them for they had taken over the work themselves, but they could save themselves from the worst effects of their own choice provided they would listen to and follow His counsels.

Whether they followed those counsels or not was as much a matter of their own choice as when they were faced with the alternative of leaving the swords with the dead Egyptians or of appropriating them. At the Red Sea they elected to take the wrong course by which they supplanted God as their Protector. But while not prepared to obey Him in this area, they were not rendered incapable of accepting His guidance in other matters. They could, if they would, adhere to His directions outlining how they could minimize the evil they had chosen.

In effect, as they faced the crisis occasioned by the worshiping of the golden calf, they were confronted with two possibilities. If they did not take some action, millions would perish. If they followed the Lord’s suggestions, then only a few would die by comparison, and a great deal of tragedy would be averted. But, if anything was done at all, it had to be by them because they had deprived God of any opportunity to take appropriate action Himself.

Great care must be taken not to slide into the trap of supposing that because force was necessary to put down the rebellion, God compromised His principles on this occasion and resorted to force by using the righteous Levites as His direct instruments. God does not change His principles for anything or anybody. With Him there is no variableness or shadow of turning.

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government {DA 22}.

Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order {DA 759}.

Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ’s kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished {AA 12}.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 01:12 AM

SIN punished with swift and terrible severity in LOVE? Or GOD PUNISHED with swift and terrible severity in love?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 06:04 AM

Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 07:15 AM

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/char...cian-theologian

...

Question: You belong to the Adventist Church; perhaps you were born into a church-member’s family.  But why do you remain Seventh-day Adventist?  In a conversation with, say, your child or a close friend, what would you offer as the most important reason? 

Answer: In conversations with my children and close friends, the three distinctive Adventist beliefs I tend to emphasize are the right picture of God, the cosmic conflict, and the non-immortality of the soul, to put the latter in somewhat archaic terms.  These are existentially important beliefs to me.  I could belong not to a church that believes in an everlasting hell.  My church, too, needs to do better with regard to notions of divine retribution.  We should be able to say without flinching that God does not do torture.    
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759}

So you believe that God punished. I agree.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 08:13 AM

Yes, he does. APL believes Jesus punishes and kills sinners. APL believes Jesus does it by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to do it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 08:21 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759}

So you believe that God punished. I agree.
Were the actions at Sinai God's plan? Nope. It was God meeting the people where they were, just as giving the laws for divorce were never God's plan, but because of the hardness of the people's heart, He gave them rules to lessen the damage. However, then end result is death, if the practice is not completely terminated, as Jesus pointed out in the NT. What we see at the golden calf experience is not God mode or methods of action.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, he does. APL believes Jesus punishes and kills sinners. APL believes Jesus does it by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to do it.
What MM ignores, is that Freedom of Choice demands that God withdraws, lets go. It is not God's imposing penalty. The sinner brings that on himself. Sin is the cause of ALL pain, suffering, disease and death. MM does not believe that. God is not like the pagan gods.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 08:25 AM

Sigve Tonstad: "We should be able to say without flinching that God does not do torture." A MEN.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 07:07 PM

APL, the following passage is one many that makes it clear Jesus is the one who punishes and kills sinners. He uses several different ways to accomplish His plan and purpose of punishment - including your favorite one (withdraw and permit):

Quote:
Leviticus
26:13 I [am] the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your [high] ways shall be desolate.
26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26:26 [And] when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver [you] your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

The withdraw and permit principle of punishment requires Jesus doing something that results in sinners suffering and dying. Jesus is responsible. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. Breaking the Sabbath, for example, does not naturally result in the long list of terrible things enumerated in the passage above. There is nothing about doing unnecessary work on the Sabbath that causes nature to freak out.

Sabbath breaking does not cause earthquakes, tornadoes, or flooding. Jesus either causes it Himself, or He commands holy angels to do it, or He permits evil angels to do it. It is punishment - not cause and effect. Your favorite way is not cause and effect. Jesus must consciously choose to withdraw His restraining hand and deliberately permit suffering, affliction, and death. He is responsible - not sin.

You have refused to publicly agree that people who willfully withdraw and deliberately permit suffering, affliction, and death are guilty of first degree murder. And yet you believe Jesus does so with impunity. For example:

1. You believe Jesus withdrew and permitted snakes to kill sinners. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

2. You believe Jesus commanded holy men of God to kill criminals and combatants. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

3. You believe Jesus permitted evil men and evil angels to kill sinners. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

In all three cases it is Jesus, not sin, who is responsible for suffering, affliction, and death. It is not cause and effect.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/19/14 07:29 PM

Originally Posted By: MM
You have refused to publicly agree that people who willfully withdraw and deliberately permit suffering, affliction, and death are guilty of first degree murder.
1)You refuse to understand that God's withdrawal is not arbitrary imposition of punishment. God cannot protect those that refuse Him.

2)You refuse to understand that the people of Israel very soon after leaving Egypt rejected God as their leader and took to using their own works to gain the promised land. God did not abandon them but gave the people laws where would minimize the damage of their choices. The people took up the sword, something they NEVER were required to do. You continue to refuse to understand that God NEVER wanted divorce, but gave laws to minimize the damage. These rules and commands are not God's ways, but man's. Man took up the sword, God minimized the damage.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, to not resist evil. Violence, even in self-defense is not God's way. Jesus did not say, take up your sword, and follow me.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 12:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

Can you clearly and concisely distinguish between murder and killing? Green could not. Maybe you can? Distinguish it so that we can use that guideline to compare against anyone and be able to determine whether they killed or murdered.


Murder is an act of war against God's righteousness. It is an act of taking the prerogatives of God into their own hands. It takes the complete separation from God's Spirit to commit murder, so in rejecting the Holy Spirit's warning and rebuke there is a rebellion against God involved.

On the other hand the act of killing someone for righteouseness sake is an act of love and self preservation, empowered by God, as proven in many biblical cases and history in general.

The problem is, if you are not hearing the record under the power of the Spirit of God, then self takes over and they take the righteous character of God and view Him from a fallen perspective, attributing a fallen character to Him. They turn His righteousness into a terror, or they take away His power in their views.

But "those who have an ear" God empowers to "Let them hear" and they can see through His perspective and they see the mercy in His holding the four winds.

In other words, Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned, and things written by God do not appear to fit with the preconceived notions of most receivers ideas on the subject, it is their perception that is altered and making the words to mean something else.

If God's Spirit does not attend the words, there is no power and confusion reigns. Also when God does intend for the self willed to hear the subject, the devil interveigns and sows seads of doubt and confusion. They hear the issue from the side of the devil and begin arguing for him, thus becoming the devils advocate. Most of us like the Apostles will be found guilty of that, because it is a part of the Christian learning experience if we are sincere and learn from our mistakes through the Holy Spirit. Very few have nothing to repent of in our learning of truth.

Back to the point; Many argue against the ministry of Samson having anything to do with righteousness but when he was born it was miracle and an angel heralded his birth. When Samson slew the 1000 men with the fresh jawbone of an ass the HOLY SPIRIT empowered him to do so. Miracles happened to prove God was on Samsons side, and water flowed out of the bone. They made him judge over Israel for 30 years before he was with Delilah, and the people made the emblem of the donky jaw bone their emblem of power. Tell me was God not behind the man with a bone being empowered to kill the 1000 men who intended on killing Samson? Does the bible record this incorrectly?

Some influences are so insideus that God commanded childred to die, and to even kill the cattle of the wicked because of the intended use goes even deeper into the hatred of God against sin.

Is it wicked for God to hate? You who think God does not have the right to execute justice yet remain unsullied are in effect saying God cannot hate. Is that true? Can a righteous God hate? The answer is yes but you would make an argument to prove it is no.

Because of the fallen perspective that we are born in, being on the fallen side of reality, stuck in this prison house of mortality, we tend to make excuses for sin, and make God to be no more righteous than a mere mortal. On God's side of the mirror there is no excuse for sin. Jesus leads us to find righteousness in the words He gave in fearful majesty, as much as He wants us to see His majesty that makes the mountains shiver. In fact our whole walk of faith is to prepare us to stand before fearful majesty, so why would anyone argue against seeing God for His wonderfully merciful yet fearfully righteous character? Much of the power of the faith of the children of God is in knowing they are standing in the righteous presence of God in the sanctuary, through the body of Christ. They see the fear that should be experienced by everyone coming in repentance and they are forgiven. Power.

Everyone with an earthly mentality sees this issue from the mindset of sympathy for the devil, using his arguments against the righteousness of God, and they quibble and murmer against the meanings of the words God gave. It is because of the clouded minset of men on the righteousness of God that they misrepresent God's Character in this way.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 02:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, he does. APL believes Jesus punishes and kills sinners. APL believes Jesus does it by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to do it.

I just want to clarify this, since he said in post #160509 that "God does not punish."
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759}

So you believe that God punished. I agree.
Were the actions at Sinai God's plan? Nope. It was God meeting the people where they were, just as giving the laws for divorce were never God's plan, but because of the hardness of the people's heart, He gave them rules to lessen the damage. However, then end result is death, if the practice is not completely terminated, as Jesus pointed out in the NT. What we see at the golden calf experience is not God mode or methods of action.

If you are saying that it was not God's plan to do something that was "necessary for the good of Israel" then I'll have to disagree there. True, it was not ideal. But given the circumstances, I believe God wanted to do it. It's like pulling out a splinter, which may not feel good, but is much better than the alternative. He does what is good even when it comes at great cost.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, he does. APL believes Jesus punishes and kills sinners. APL believes Jesus does it by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, or evil angels to do it.
What MM ignores, is that Freedom of Choice demands that God withdraws, lets go. It is not God's imposing penalty. The sinner brings that on himself. Sin is the cause of ALL pain, suffering, disease and death. MM does not believe that. God is not like the pagan gods.

You may be conflating the first and second deaths. Revelation is pretty clear that some punishment is done in love and mercy, for our good. It is difficult to attribute that to sin.

Unless if God set up the system such that sin is self-limiting, causing its own demise. But that would lay the destruction of sinners at God's feet, since we agree that Satan wants sinners to be immortal.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
1)You refuse to understand that God's withdrawal is not arbitrary imposition of punishment. God cannot protect those that refuse Him.

Then why is Satan still alive? He irrevocably refused God long ago. Who is protecting him from the wages of sin now?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
2)You refuse to understand that the people of Israel very soon after leaving Egypt rejected God as their leader and took to using their own works to gain the promised land. God did not abandon them but gave the people laws where would minimize the damage of their choices. The people took up the sword, something they NEVER were required to do.

When God told Saul to kill all the Amalekites, did He want Saul to kill all the Amalekites? And was God happy with Saul for sparing Agag?

To say that God never required them to use the sword would make God untrustworthy. And when we consider the consequences of Saul's failure to kill Agag, it just keeps going downhill.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The withdraw and permit principle of punishment requires Jesus doing something that results in sinners suffering and dying. Jesus is responsible. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. Breaking the Sabbath, for example, does not naturally result in the long list of terrible things enumerated in the passage above. There is nothing about doing unnecessary work on the Sabbath that causes nature to freak out.

Sabbath breaking does not cause earthquakes, tornadoes, or flooding. Jesus either causes it Himself, or He commands holy angels to do it, or He permits evil angels to do it. It is punishment - not cause and effect. Your favorite way is not cause and effect. Jesus must consciously choose to withdraw His restraining hand and deliberately permit suffering, affliction, and death. He is responsible - not sin.

You have refused to publicly agree that people who willfully withdraw and deliberately permit suffering, affliction, and death are guilty of first degree murder. And yet you believe Jesus does so with impunity. For example:

1. You believe Jesus withdrew and permitted snakes to kill sinners. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

2. You believe Jesus commanded holy men of God to kill criminals and combatants. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

3. You believe Jesus permitted evil men and evil angels to kill sinners. However, you also believe if anyone else did the same thing they would be guilty of first degree murder.

In all three cases it is Jesus, not sin, who is responsible for suffering, affliction, and death. It is not cause and effect.

Originally Posted By: APL
1)You refuse to understand that God's withdrawal is not arbitrary imposition of punishment. God cannot protect those that refuse Him.

2)You refuse to understand that the people of Israel very soon after leaving Egypt rejected God as their leader and took to using their own works to gain the promised land. God did not abandon them but gave the people laws where would minimize the damage of their choices. The people took up the sword, something they NEVER were required to do. You continue to refuse to understand that God NEVER wanted divorce, but gave laws to minimize the damage. These rules and commands are not God's ways, but man's. Man took up the sword, God minimized the damage.

1. Right, punishment is not arbitrary. It is specific, deliberate, and based on law. For example, there is no cause and effect connection between complaining about manna and being killed by fiery serpents. There is no cause and effect connection in Jesus commanding holy men of God to kill criminals and combatants. There is no cause and effect connection in Jesus permitting evil men and evil angels to kill sinners. None of these kind of things would happen if Jesus did not do His part.

2. The fact remains - Jesus commanded holy men to kill criminals and combatants. No one forced Him. You seem to think Jesus was powerless. You also believe divorce is equivalent to Jesus commanding killing criminals and combatants. However, He merely permitted divorce. He never commanded it.

Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, to not resist evil. Violence, even in self-defense is not God's way. Jesus did not say, take up your sword, and follow me.

Commanding holy men of Gods to kill criminals and combatants is not turning the other cheek.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 07:03 AM

Perhaps you should read Preface, the Introduction, and the first chapter of the book, The Great Controversy. Read each paragraph, and let it sink in. I did that just today.

MM: "Jesus commanded holy men to kill criminals and combatants."
This is NOT God's perfect will. It is His permissive will, just as that laws of divorce were His permissive will. God's permissive will, if continued to be followed will not save.

"The great sin of the Jews was their rejection of Christ; the great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection of the law of God" {GC 22.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded holy men to kill criminals and combatants.

A: This is NOT God's perfect will. It is His permissive will, just as that laws of divorce were His permissive will. God's permissive will, if continued to be followed will not save.

His permissive will is perfect. However, there is nothing permissive about Jesus "commanding" holy men of God to kill criminals and combatants! To refuse obedience is to incur the wrath and disfavor of God. Just ask King Saul. You are using "permissive will" as if it means obeying His command to kill is evil. The exact opposite is true.

You have failed to prove from the Word of God Jesus intended to fight alone for His chosen people (without their involvement). You think Jesus withdrawing and permitting death and destruction means He is innocent. Whereas anyone else would be guilty of first degree murder. Jesus never did use hornets to kill. Instead, He used armed Hebrews. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus forbid it. The fact He commanded it is proof.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 08:15 PM

Did I ever say that the people were not involved? Nope. In going into Canaan, the people were to march. In taking Jericho, the people were to march. There is a roll to play. IF, IF, the people had followed God's perfect will, they would have had no need to fight. But the people went backwards, not forwards after leaving Egypt.

Jeremiah 7:22-26 AKJV
22 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you.
24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt to this day I have even sent to you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they listened not to me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

His permissive will is perfect? OH - so divorce is a good thing!!! God it! Good news! MM: "To refuse obedience is to incur the wrath and disfavor of God." Right - Got it. Love me, or I'll kill you.

How is the reading of the preface, introduction, and first chapter of The Great Controversy going? Or are you going to ignore it?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
1. You believe He withdrew His restraining hand and permitted snakes to bite and kill men, women, and children. Where in the NT did Jesus do such things?

2. You also believe Jesus commanded holy men like Moses to punish and kill criminals and combatants. Where in the NT did Jesus command such a thing?

3. You also believe Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to punish and kill Jews and Gentiles. When did Jesus do such a thing in the NT?

M: The obvious answers to the questions above make it clear Jesus in the NT (while here in the flesh) did not act like Jesus in the OT. Of course, there are things in common; however, there are things He didn't do while here in the flesh.

K: MM, I asked, "Why did Ellen White write that passage and how does it apply here regarding "employs fire and water to kill sinners"? I don't see how your response addresses this in any way.

You agree with me that Jesus did things in the OT He didn't do in the NT (while here in the flesh). Ellen White's comment about Jesus in the NT does not undermine what she wrote about Jesus in the OT. "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." {DA 799.2}
I agree that "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." The problem is you take what you think God is doing in the Old, and then try to interpret what you see Jesus doing in the New. But what APL and I have been saying in case you haven't caught it is that what we see Jesus doing, not killing people, is how we need to interpret what we see God doing in the Old.

Otherwise, when you say "does not undermine" how do you resolve those two apparently conflicting statements?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland

Can you clearly and concisely distinguish between murder and killing? Green could not. Maybe you can? Distinguish it so that we can use that guideline to compare against anyone and be able to determine whether they killed or murdered.


Murder is an act of war against God's righteousness. It is an act of taking the prerogatives of God into their own hands. It takes the complete separation from God's Spirit to commit murder, so in rejecting the Holy Spirit's warning and rebuke there is a rebellion against God involved.

On the other hand the act of killing someone for righteouseness sake is an act of love and self preservation, empowered by God, as proven in many biblical cases and history in general.

The problem is, if you are not hearing the record under the power of the Spirit of God, then self takes over and they take the righteous character of God and view Him from a fallen perspective, attributing a fallen character to Him. They turn His righteousness into a terror, or they take away His power in their views.

But "those who have an ear" God empowers to "Let them hear" and they can see through His perspective and they see the mercy in His holding the four winds.

In other words, Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned, and things written by God do not appear to fit with the preconceived notions of most receivers ideas on the subject, it is their perception that is altered and making the words to mean something else.

If God's Spirit does not attend the words, there is no power and confusion reigns. Also when God does intend for the self willed to hear the subject, the devil interveigns and sows seads of doubt and confusion. They hear the issue from the side of the devil and begin arguing for him, thus becoming the devils advocate. Most of us like the Apostles will be found guilty of that, because it is a part of the Christian learning experience if we are sincere and learn from our mistakes through the Holy Spirit. Very few have nothing to repent of in our learning of truth.

Back to the point; Many argue against the ministry of Samson having anything to do with righteousness but when he was born it was miracle and an angel heralded his birth. When Samson slew the 1000 men with the fresh jawbone of an ass the HOLY SPIRIT empowered him to do so. Miracles happened to prove God was on Samsons side, and water flowed out of the bone. They made him judge over Israel for 30 years before he was with Delilah, and the people made the emblem of the donky jaw bone their emblem of power. Tell me was God not behind the man with a bone being empowered to kill the 1000 men who intended on killing Samson? Does the bible record this incorrectly?

Some influences are so insideus that God commanded childred to die, and to even kill the cattle of the wicked because of the intended use goes even deeper into the hatred of God against sin.

Is it wicked for God to hate? You who think God does not have the right to execute justice yet remain unsullied are in effect saying God cannot hate. Is that true? Can a righteous God hate? The answer is yes but you would make an argument to prove it is no.

Because of the fallen perspective that we are born in, being on the fallen side of reality, stuck in this prison house of mortality, we tend to make excuses for sin, and make God to be no more righteous than a mere mortal. On God's side of the mirror there is no excuse for sin. Jesus leads us to find righteousness in the words He gave in fearful majesty, as much as He wants us to see His majesty that makes the mountains shiver. In fact our whole walk of faith is to prepare us to stand before fearful majesty, so why would anyone argue against seeing God for His wonderfully merciful yet fearfully righteous character? Much of the power of the faith of the children of God is in knowing they are standing in the righteous presence of God in the sanctuary, through the body of Christ. They see the fear that should be experienced by everyone coming in repentance and they are forgiven. Power.

Everyone with an earthly mentality sees this issue from the mindset of sympathy for the devil, using his arguments against the righteousness of God, and they quibble and murmer against the meanings of the words God gave. It is because of the clouded minset of men on the righteousness of God that they misrepresent God's Character in this way.
And you think this is "clearly and concisely"?

It almost seems that you intentionally used vague terms to define it and used many paragraphs.

For example, "Murder is an act of war against God's righteousness". How can one determine if someone kills someone whether they did "an act of war against God's righteousness" or they did it for "righteousness"? This seems more of a dictator type of attitude, that whoever is in charge determines whether you did right or not. Basically, there is no right or wrong other than what someone makes up as to what is in their opinion.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 09:49 PM

While not really surprised, I am appalled by how many people see God as doing the same acts of Hitler and other dictators by directly and intentionally torturing and killing people. And I'm further appalled that they see nothing wrong with viewing God in that way nor considering that their views may need to be looked at as to whether they are in harmony with how Jesus came to earth to represent God in flesh since man had come so far away and had so wrongly misrepresented His character.

And then there's some who say that APL, myself, and others need to have a more hostile view of God so that we are not misrepresenting His character...
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
In going into Canaan, the people were to march. In taking Jericho, the people were to march.


God intended to show the Israelites that the conquest of Canaan was not to be ascribed to them. The captain of the Lord’s host overcame Jericho. He and his angels were engaged in the conquest. Christ commanded the armies of Heaven to throw down the walls of Jericho, and prepare an entrance for Joshua and the armies of Israel. God, in this wonderful miracle, not only strengthened the faith of his people in his power to subdue their enemies, but rebuked their former unbelief. – {1SP 351.1}

What did Jesus want the armies of Israel to do after He and His angels threw down the walls? Were they to just wait as the Canaanites walked out on their own?

The following quote seems to imply that love and justice, not sin and malice, needed something a bit more proactive.

And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. – {PP 492.2}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/20/14 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: kland


...For example, "Murder is an act of war against God's righteousness". How can one determine if someone kills someone whether they did "an act of war against God's righteousness" or they did it for "righteousness"? This seems more of a dictator type of attitude, that whoever is in charge determines whether you did right or not. Basically, there is no right or wrong other than what someone makes up as to what is in their opinion.


Your response shows where you are in your walk of faith and you cannot see it.

You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven. Out of all the created beings, who is more worthy of being the perfect witness? No one on this earth but Jesus who is the son of God, who came and lived here on this planet and did not fall to sin. The only one worthy to open the book of record. He has a book and it is written on the record the perfect truth of everything that has ever taken place. All He does is open it for everyone to see from the perfect perspective. Those who have been redeemed have their records expunged. Those who do not repent see the record after the rest of the universe does, just before they are punished for their rebellion against God. But EVERYONE will see the truth perfectly from our righteous God's perspective outside of our universe.

God reveals everything in His time. The judgment is for us to see that everything God saw and how He responded is perfect. It will reveal those who had faith that God knows what is best, and that ALL OF HIS JUDGMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUS! Anyone who truly knows God has already received this lesson.

For you to say that God is a dictator in how He responds to sin, shows perfectly what Spirit motivates you. It proves that what you are teaching is a feeble attempt to justify your unballanced view of God.

God has told us through His word what the truth of the matter is, and He uses very pointed words to do so in so many different ways. Anyone who does not believe in those words, who tries to erase God's view of Himself, are showing an extreem lack of faith, because faith comes by hearing the word of God. It is the antithisis of faith to try to change the truth.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 12:44 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
In going into Canaan, the people were to march. In taking Jericho, the people were to march.


God intended to show the Israelites that the conquest of Canaan was not to be ascribed to them. The captain of the Lord’s host overcame Jericho. He and his angels were engaged in the conquest. Christ commanded the armies of Heaven to throw down the walls of Jericho, and prepare an entrance for Joshua and the armies of Israel. God, in this wonderful miracle, not only strengthened the faith of his people in his power to subdue their enemies, but rebuked their former unbelief. – {1SP 351.1}

What did Jesus want the armies of Israel to do after He and His angels threw down the walls? Were they to just wait as the Canaanites walked out on their own?

The following quote seems to imply that love and justice, not sin and malice, needed something a bit more proactive.

And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. – {PP 492.2}

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 02:56 AM

This seems to be clear to me that the "bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which....." were directly used by God to bring about the world-wide flood that killed all but those who were in the ark.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Jesus employs fire and water to punish and kill. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

2. Jesus uses His enemies to punish and kill. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

Did APL and kland ever directly respond to the above EGW quotes?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 04:39 AM

Were not the fiery serpents part of God's arsenal? Yep. How did He use them? How was He involved in sending them?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 04:54 AM

Couldn't God have made all the serpents harmless? Then, even the Israelites were disobedient, they wouldn't have died.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 05:01 AM

Daryl is correct, he sees the two ways God executes justice, that God both allows satan to torment in result of sin, and executes judgment Himself to erase sin.

APL only sees one side and denies the accountability of God in the process.

God takes full responsibility for His creation. He had to suffer His own wrath to forgive us because of the way righteousness demands justice and He chose to offer mercy interacting in Christ to show us His infinite love.

Why is there such a problem in the church that claims to be lead by the Spirit?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 05:23 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Were not the fiery serpents part of God's arsenal? Yep. How did He use them? How was He involved in sending them?


How did God use the earth to swallow up the rebels in the camp?
Did He just withdraw His Spirit and the earth fell away? How did Sodom and Gamorah get destroyed? The angels from God are the fires, or lightnings from heaven. The angel at the gate to the Garden has the righteousness of God through His Holy word in the form of a sword to defend paradise from intrusion. He commands other angels in the name of the Lord because of every word that comes from the mouth of Jesus is indellable. Jesus speaks and the angels do as He commands. There is perfect order in heaven and Not one sinner has crossed the gate and eaten of the tree of life. God speaks and it is so. This is faith where the power of God is at the service of His creatures.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 05:32 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Couldn't God have made all the serpents harmless? Then, even the Israelites were disobedient, they wouldn't have died.
Did God make the fiery serpents dangerous in the first place???
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Were not the fiery serpents part of God's arsenal? Yep. How did He use them? How was He involved in sending them?


How did God use the earth to swallow up the rebels in the camp?
Did He just withdraw His Spirit and the earth fell away? How did Sodom and Gamorah get destroyed? The angels from God are the fires, or lightnings from heaven. The angel at the gate to the Garden has the righteousness of God through His Holy word in the form of a sword to defend paradise from intrusion. He commands other angels in the name of the Lord because of every word that comes from the mouth of Jesus is indellable. Jesus speaks and the angels do as He commands. There is perfect order in heaven and Not one sinner has crossed the gate and eaten of the tree of life. God speaks and it is so. This is faith where the power of God is at the service of His creatures.


Consider Hosea 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Couldn't God have made all the serpents harmless? Then, even the Israelites were disobedient, they wouldn't have died.
Did God make the fiery serpents dangerous in the first place???

No, but I'm pretty sure He knew they were dangerous at that time.

If I was leading a child through a pit I knew was full of dangerous snakes, then I withdrew my protection because the child rebelled against my instructions, knowing that the venomous snakes would attack, I think most would say I was responsible for the inevitable outcome. And if I had the ability to make the snakes harmless but chose not to.....
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 07:50 AM

Oh! I see. Hm - could God have stopped Satan in the beginning, thus sparing us all this pain??? What does inspiration say?

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Moderized:
Satan’s representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. These murmurings and complaints were groundless. Yet God allowed Satan to work out his theories. He could have handled Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by this He would have given a precedent for the violence of human beings that is so abundantly shown in our world in the compelling principles. {CTr 13.4}

The Lord’s principles are not of this order. All the compelling power is to be found under Satan’s government. God would not work in this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, and cause him mental or physical suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan’s creation. . . . {CTr 13.5}

The people had rejected God. Freewill means He must leave.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 09:32 AM

I know I've written this before -- but I see these arguments as two opposing poles, while truth lies somewhere in the middle.

1. All suffering, disease, pain, evil, death are the result of sin.
God allows sin to demonstrate its horribleness for if He didn't, people would think sin is fun, or the way to be successful etc. So God must allow sin to run its course. There is truth to the fact that God steps back and allows sin to run its course.

However -- God allows it to go so far, and no further, there must be room for righteousness to grow. God uses a variety of ways to stop evil.
--letting sin go to its natural consequence, or more often to a partial consequence as it is still under His control.
-- a direct intervention

This is not "using force" to get someone to obey unwillingly. But rather a controlling of the evil forces to give people a chance to learn about good and willingly choose salvation.


Instead of trying to fit God into our little boxes, why not simply trust Him



2. Those snakes are a favorite on this thread -- coming up time and time.
At creation snakes were not poisonous, in fact they were surprisingly beautiful -- flying serpents. Satan used a snake to bring sin into the world. The snake is often seen as a symbol of Satan and the occult.
Interestingly satan managed to give some snakes a lethal weapon to cause death.

There are many poisonous snakes in the Arabian desert and God did protect Israel from them.

Near the end of their 40 years in the wilderness, Israel again started bitterly complaining about the Lord's leading. "We're all going to die out here, and we hate this old manna."

How was God going to show them how lovingly He had provided for them? By introducing them to the things He had protected them from! The Bible says God sent the snakes. We can argue forever what that means -- but it obviously means that in the camp (where there had never been poisonous snakes before) now suddenly there were a lot of them! And a lot of people were dying.

Then God does a marvellous thing. An object lesson of great importance. A look to a bronze snake on a cross brought instant healing.
A symbol of Christ, taking our sins, and dying on the cross that we might live.


3. The whole question of why is there so much misery in this world puts a whole different perspective on these things. The terrible things on this planet didn't come as "punishment from God" but rather as the result of mankind's combined sinful choices.

Yet, God does deliver and does step in, in miraculous ways to stop the evil.
For example -- Satan was determined to stop the reformation.
When the Spanish Armada was heading for England, the odds were highly in favor on the Spanish side -- England was going to fall, and Catholic rule re-established with force. The pope issued an excommunication bull against Queen Elizabeth the first, because she was a supporter of "heretics." The "invincible armada" was going to restore the papal power in England.
But God intervened, and I believe it was more than simply "removing His protection", the winds and waves obeyed His command and the mighty Armada was scattered.

Yes, we can trust in God -- for indeed He is still in control.

He is in the business of saving for eternity as many people as possible.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
The Bible says God sent the snakes. We can argue forever what that means
But if you believe EGW, then there is no need to argue.
Originally Posted By: EGW
And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 2}

The Lord had fed them with the bread of heaven, even with angels' food; and yet they murmured against him. By his power he had held in check the wild beasts of the forests, and the reptiles of the wilderness, so that they had not hurt his people; but now he removed his restraining hand, and let the poisonous serpents do as they would have done all along the way had the Lord not restrained them. {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 3}


Combined with:
Originally Posted By: EGW
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

A number here advocate that God kills, God sends diseases, God tortures. God does none of these things. They are all caused by sin, and only overruled by God for purposes of mercy. The lesson of Jobs shows this.

Originally Posted By: dedication
But God intervened, and I believe it was more than simply "removing His protection", the winds and waves obeyed His command and the mighty Armada was scattered.
The key phrase, "I believe". That great. But is it only an opinion, a belief. Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70.
Originally Posted By: EGW
The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
And why Jerusalem destroyed? Read the first part of this paragraph...
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland


...For example, "Murder is an act of war against God's righteousness". How can one determine if someone kills someone whether they did "an act of war against God's righteousness" or they did it for "righteousness"? This seems more of a dictator type of attitude, that whoever is in charge determines whether you did right or not. Basically, there is no right or wrong other than what someone makes up as to what is in their opinion.


Your response shows where you are in your walk of faith and you cannot see it.
And can it likewise be said taht your response shows where you are in your walk of faith and you cannot see it?

Quote:
You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven.
Wait! It's not me, but you and others believing God acts like a dictator!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 06:41 PM

From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/pakistans-blasphemy-laws

Ahmad proclaimed that God had appointed him the imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah4 whose advent was foretold in the Holy Koran and in the Hadith (recorded sayings) of the prophet Muhammad. What particularly incensed Muslims of his day (and to this day) was that he forbade the Jihad of the sword (to convert people to Islam or wage offensive wars),5 replacing it instead with the Jihad of the pen.6 The motto of the community he founded is: “Love for All—Hatred for None.” Despite intense, often violent and deadly persecution by other Muslims, the number of Ahmadis in the world continues to increase.
...
Why all this hatred against Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the Ahmadis? The answer has to do with what Muslims expect from the imam Mahdi.
...
Generally speaking, Muslims believe that what will follow after that won’t be peace and love, but war and bloodshed—the “bloody imam” concept—to restore the worldly power and material glory of Islam through the conquest and destruction of its enemies (the Christians and Jews, primarily). Because the Ahmadiyya Community founder’s mission was decidedly nonviolent, nonpolitical, and focused entirely on spiritual and moral reformation, it’s easy to see why the extremist Muslim clerics and their followers (from the late nineteenth century to the present day) have always been so opposed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his followers.

Hmmm....The Muslim terrorists are opposed to those who believe their prophet was one of peace and not of violence. Sound familiar?


From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/killing-words

Blasphemy laws themselves are the key issue. No matter what god the majority population in a country chooses to worship, making dissent by minority faiths a criminal offense is a terrible idea, for all kinds of reasons. To suggest that your god is happy to rule by coercion, happy to attempt to force people to follow through any means necessary—even torture or death—is beyond folly.

Beyond folly!

I wouldn't say this is the end result of such views about their god, but this is an example of the beginning result of one who holds such views about their god. Coercion, force, torture, death. How you view your god is how you treat others. If you view your god as hurting and harming others, you will push for laws to hurt and harm others. Or do it yourself.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 07:15 PM

You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven.

Originally Posted By: kland
Wait! It's not me, but you and others believing God acts like a dictator!


The whole argument of Satan was that God's laws are tyranical. He took the truth and twisted it to confuse others, to believe that since the righteousness of God destroys sin and those who refuse to repent, God is a tyrant.

The reason what you are doing is the exact same thing is because you have the same argument. You have twisted the words of God to make it look like God could not possibly be just in destroying the wicked, which has the same leverage against God as what Satan argued.

You totally discount 1/2 of all the information on the subject.

Tell me, what lesson can you learn from this story?

Quote:
Numbers 25 (KJV)

And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.

3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.

4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.

5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

10 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.

12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:


You would take away the power of this bible story in how you view God.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 07:35 PM

In case you don't see the importance of the quote I was inspired to use, the children of God were about to enter the promissed land, and Balaam sends beautiful heathen women into the camp to entice the men to worship Baalpeor. This will be fulfilled again in the last days in a more subtle way...

"Nearly all forms of ancient sorcery and witchcraft were founded upon a belief in communion with the dead. Those who practiced the arts of necromancy claimed to have intercourse with departed spirits, and to obtain through them a knowledge of future events. This custom of consulting the dead is referred to in the prophecy of Isaiah: “When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” Isaiah 8:19. {PP 684.1}
This same belief in communion with the dead formed the cornerstone of heathen idolatry. The gods of the heathen were believed to be the deified spirits of departed heroes. Thus the religion of the heathen was a worship of the dead. This is evident from the Scriptures. In the account of the sin of Israel at Bethpeor, it is stated: “Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor.” Numbers 25:1-3. The psalmist tells us to what kind of gods these sacrifices were offered. Speaking of the same apostasy of the Israelites, he says, “They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead” (Psalm 106:28); that is, sacrifices that had been offered to the dead. {PP 684.2}
The deification of the dead has held a prominent place in nearly every system of heathenism, as has also the supposed communion with the dead. The gods were believed to communicate their will to men, and also, when consulted, to give them counsel. Of this character were the famous oracles of Greece and Rome. {PP 684.3}
The belief in communion with the dead is still held, even in professedly Christian lands. Under the name of spiritualism the practice of communicating with beings claiming to be the spirits of the departed has become widespread. It is calculated to take hold of the sympathies of those who have laid their loved ones in the grave. Spiritual beings sometimes appear to persons in the form of their deceased friends, and relate incidents connected with their lives and perform acts which they performed while living. In this way they lead men to believe that their dead friends are angels, hovering over them and communicating with them. Those who thus assume to be the spirits of the departed are regarded with a certain idolatry, and with many their word has greater weight than the word of God. {PP 684.4}

So if Phinehas "turned my wrath away from the children of Israel" by putting a javelin through the bodies of a man and woman having sexual intercourse in front of Moses and the congregation, and this story is recorded as a figure of the future intercourse between believers and those who worship the dead, then what kind of message would put the javelin through their bellies to stay God's wrath against the church?

The way you view the role of God in this story takes away the power of the message and you have no clue what you are doing.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 07:53 PM

APL and Kland believe everything must be interpreted to mean God withdraws His restraining hand and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to murder. No matter what anyone else says, no matter which passages they post they will either mock, ridicule, and chide it, or they will ignore, reject, and dismiss it.

This discussion has played itself out. Everything that can be said has already been posted.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 08:37 PM

Interesting MM - do you not do the same thing? Ignore, reject, dismiss, ...? Yep. The big problem you have is that you can't connect all the dots. If EGW says God does not use force, you say he does, you can't reconcile those statements. When EGW says God is not the executioner, you reject and ignore those statements and say does use force. When she says that sickness is caused by sin, you say that God brings sickness and then kills. What is the GOSPEL? The Good News? Is it that God has found a way so He does not have to kill us????

There is one more thing I can say, even if an angel of light should come, I can't go back to thinking like you do. We have nothing to fear from God. We have everything to fear from SIN.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 09:37 PM

How can one connect the dots and get the correct picture, if one adds dots and erases others to paint their own idea of what the picture should look like?

I agree with MM and James on this-- that this debate has ridiculed and mocked the justice of God in deliberately (not just passively) dealing with sin.

By erasing some of the dots, some paint a picture of a God Who is only permitted to step back and allow Satan and sin to do its thing.

The problem with that?
When the Spanish Armada was heading for England, with the intent that England was going to fall, and Catholic rule was to be re-established with force was Satan's plan -- he WANTED and instigated this whole plan. He was going to do everything he could to wipe Protestantism off the map.

BUT GOD STOPPED IT -- by commanding the waves and the winds to destroy that armada.
If God only stepped back and allowed Satan to do his thing -- satan would have insured that armada got to England and did its frightful work.

But God stepped in and ACTED.

This was a turning point for history -- as it was through England that Protestantism, not Catholism, was the religious mindset in America, and with it came the opening up of a whole era where religious freedom was respected and truth had a chance to be proclaimed and grow.

I'm sure satan thought God was a tyrant for destroying his armada, and wants you to think the same. But no -- God was merciful and just so many could hear the truth and be saved for eternity.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Oh! I see. Hm - could God have stopped Satan in the beginning, thus sparing us all this pain???
...
The people had rejected God. Freewill means He must leave.

1. So, God could have spared us our current pain, but chose another course. Pain is not the worst thing there is, and can even be very helpful.

2. What happened to Satan's freewill? Why hasn't he been killed by snakes, swallowed by the earth, or incinerated by fire? These are examples of what you say happened when God left people alone. Why is Satan still kicking, even though he rejected God long ago?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/21/14 11:02 PM

If God had allowed the natural consequences of sin to proceed, Satan would have perished. The on looking universe, never having seen this, would not have understood this. God had to intervene and let satan's scenario play out. It is called, the Great Controversy.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 12:18 AM

In all these years since his rebellion, Satan has been kept alive by God in order to let the Great Controversy play out. OK.

So, it is not always true that, "The people had rejected God. Freewill means He must leave." There are times when God overrides one's choice, if a greater good can be accomplished or a greater evil avoided.

Since his rebellion, has Satan's life been one of peace and joy, or pain and suffering?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven.

Originally Posted By: kland
Wait! It's not me, but you and others believing God acts like a dictator!


The whole argument of Satan was that God's laws are tyranical. He took the truth and twisted it to confuse others, to believe that since the righteousness of God destroys sin and those who refuse to repent, God is a tyrant.

The reason what you are doing is the exact same thing is because you have the same argument. You have twisted the words of God to make it look like God could not possibly be just in destroying the wicked, which has the same leverage against God as what Satan argued.
You need to look at yourself. You need to review the argument of satan accusing God of being tyrannical. Because what you are doing is saying that God does the same thing as a tyrant would do, but then you have twisted it to say that acting in such a way is NOT tyranny and you have twisted the words of inspiration to make it say the opposite. You have called good evil and evil good. Satan accused God of what you are accusing Him of. However, even satan could see it as tyranny, but you see tyranny as good.

You need prayer, brother.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 09:36 PM

That is a perfect point Dedication.

We are in the middle of a war, and there are only two sides.

Shame on anyone who twists the truth to illude that God is in collusion with Satan. If Satan punishes the wicked then who punishes Satan?

God is in control of our only defense against Satan. Like He said to Job "can you snag leviathon with a hook?" we have no weapons against Satan and the angels of God are our only defense.

In the second resurrection God takes away Satans defenses and exposes him, casting him to the ground, making him walk like a mortal. "I shall bring you to ashes in the sight of men". God does this, not nature or the unraveling of the fabric of the universe, GOD does it.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
You like Satan have accused God to be a "dictator" because of the order of heaven.

Originally Posted By: kland
Wait! It's not me, but you and others believing God acts like a dictator!


The whole argument of Satan was that God's laws are tyranical. He took the truth and twisted it to confuse others, to believe that since the righteousness of God destroys sin and those who refuse to repent, God is a tyrant.

The reason what you are doing is the exact same thing is because you have the same argument. You have twisted the words of God to make it look like God could not possibly be just in destroying the wicked, which has the same leverage against God as what Satan argued.
You need to look at yourself. You need to review the argument of satan accusing God of being tyrannical. Because what you are doing is saying that God does the same thing as a tyrant would do, but then you have twisted it to say that acting in such a way is NOT tyranny and you have twisted the words of inspiration to make it say the opposite. You have called good evil and evil good. Satan accused God of what you are accusing Him of. However, even satan could see it as tyranny, but you see tyranny as good.

You need prayer, brother.


We all need prayer brother, and if you are willing to offer one I am willing to accept it, but I don't see you offering one, I only see you use the fact to cast contempt. God doesn't like us using His name like that, I hope you know.

Let me tell you about the power of prayer. Every time I or my wife are in need of anything, we pray and it happens through the grace of God.

I hear the still small voice ask me what I would like, this is how close God has brought me to Him. On several occasions God has asked me if I need or want anything. I respond by taking the opportunity for praying for my family and friends and sometimes enemies, and they all come true, then He asks "But what do YOU want?"

Of course I ask for all righteousness and truth and the wisdom of Christ in my life, and then He tells me to ask for the righteous comforts of life, so I asked to get out of debt and to meet the woman HE would want for me. The very next morning I woke up to the phone ringing and it was my mothers husband asking how much the Smoothie Bar ministry I founded put me in debt and he sent me a check the next day and I met my wife that day, and everything else I asked for in the name of Jesus came true. Since that time there have been several other answers to prayer that were so miraculous that even my family and friends are constrained to acknowledge God answered my prayers. The most recent answer came last week in the saving of my fathers life while he was dying.

I wont share all the amazing prayers for others that have been answered, but there are times when in prayer that God answers directly without delay, giving answers to deep spiritual issues, and He is NEVER wrong.

I asked for a home for my new wife and one was given to me a week later, paid in full. I asked for a new car so we could have some security in our jobs and getting arround, and not one but two brand new cars are sitting in my garage right now, one of them completely paid for as a gift.

I boast in the Lord. I do need prayer, but I guarantee you I have no fear of not being heard.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 10:46 PM

The Ten Commandments are the character of God in writing. They have been around since before the angels.

Breaking the commandments demands death of the sinner.

Satan took this fact and twisted it to say God is a tyrant because He will destroy anyone who does not comply to His will in perfect righteousness. This is what you and APL are doing in your argument Kland. But it will soon be seen how wrong you are.

"Satan is constantly at work to misrepresent the character and government of God and to hold the inhabitants of the world under his deception. God sees the end from the beginning. His plans were far-reaching and comprehensive, not merely to put down the rebellion, but to demonstrate to all the universe its nature, fully vindicating His wisdom and righteousness in His dealings with evil. {EP 41.3}
The inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the condition of the world before the flood. They saw the results of the administration which Lucifer had endeavored to establish in heaven in casting aside the law of God. The thoughts of men’s hearts were only evil continually (Genesis 6:5), at war with the divine principles of purity, peace, and love. It was an example of awful depravity. {EP 41.4}
By the facts unfolded in the great controversy God carries with Him the sympathy of the whole universe as step by step His great plan advances to its fulfillment in the final eradication of rebellion. It will be seen that all who have forsaken the divine precepts have placed themselves on the side of Satan, in warfare against Christ. When the prince of this world shall be judged, and all who have united with him shall share his fate, the whole universe will declare, “Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.” Revelation 15:3. {EP 41.5}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/22/14 10:52 PM

"I saw that the angels of God are never to control the will. God sets before man life and death. He can have his choice. Many desire life, but still continue to walk in the broad road. They choose to rebel against God’s government, notwithstanding His great mercy and compassion in giving His Son to die for them. Those who do not choose to accept of the salvation so dearly purchased, must be punished. But I saw that God would not shut them up in hell to endure endless misery, neither will He take them to heaven; for to bring them into the company of the pure and holy would make them exceedingly miserable. But He will destroy them utterly and cause them to be as if they had not been; then His justice will be satisfied. He formed man out of the dust of the earth, and the disobedient and unholy will be consumed by fire and return to dust again. I saw that the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter should lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name. After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host will say, “Amen!” {EW 221.1}

All the heavenly host will say amen when God destroys the wicked but Kland and APL will not.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/23/14 05:42 AM

JAMES - - God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/23/14 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL and Kland believe everything must be interpreted to mean God withdraws His restraining hand and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to murder. No matter what anyone else says, no matter which passages they post they will either mock, ridicule, and chide it, or they will ignore, reject, and dismiss it.

This discussion has played itself out. Everything that can be said has already been posted.
There is more to say - Even if an angel of light...
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/23/14 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
JAMES - - God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


This quote is not saying God does not execute justice...

This quote is saying that IN THIS LIFE God will give sinners over to thier unrepented sins and they die as a result of God's withdrawal of mercy. The alcoholic or drug addict dies because of the sickness etc...

God does not stand towards sinners as their executioner because He wants us to see that He has mercy and love for us, but at the same time He is the rewarder of men and will in no wise clear the guilty.

Since you want to keep driving this point into the ground lets see what the Spirit of Prophecy says that God did do durring the fall of Jerusalem since that is the subject of your quote.

"And on “whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” The people who rejected Christ were soon to see their city and their nation destroyed. Their glory would be broken, and scattered as the dust before the wind. And what was it that destroyed the Jews? It was the rock which, had they built upon it, would have been their security. It was the goodness of God despised, the righteousness spurned, the mercy slighted. Men set themselves in opposition to God, and all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction. All that God ordained unto life they found to be unto death. In the Jews’ crucifixion of Christ was involved the destruction of Jerusalem. The blood shed upon Calvary was the weight that sank them to ruin for this world and for the world to come. So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God’s grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed. {DA 600.2}
By many illustrations and repeated warnings, Jesus showed what would be the result to the Jews of rejecting the Son of God. In these words He was addressing all in every age who refuse to receive Him as their Redeemer. Every warning is for them. The desecrated temple, the disobedient son, the false husbandmen, the contemptuous builders, have their counterpart in the experience of every sinner. Unless he repent, the doom which they foreshadowed will be his. {DA 600.3}

But of course you will not see the ballance between the two statements.

The destruction of Jerusalem was the avenging angel taking the lives of those who killed Jesus, and that was the end of their first life. The second and third deaths for them will be most unpleasant for them;

The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” Isaiah 26:21. “And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.” Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God’s unmingled wrath (TWO DIFFERENT CAUSES), fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth—priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. “And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried.” Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}
At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth—consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.” “The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.” “Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned.” Isaiah 24:1, 3, 5, 6. {GC 657.1}

In solom defense of the word of God I must tell you how far off the path your perception is, and as long as you keep arguing the wrong side of this argument I am inspired to contend with your insolence for the sake of others here.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/23/14 10:17 PM

Notice in that quote it says "all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction" ?

Is Satan for our salvation?

The rock, who is for their salvation grinds them to powder.

You do not know the glory of the Lord.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 12:53 AM

God treats the sinners the same as the righteous. What is the difference? SIN.

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

Isaiah 9:18-19 For wickedness burns as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
We all need prayer brother, and if you are willing to offer one I am willing to accept it, but I don't see you offering one, I only see you use the fact to cast contempt.
I did pray for you and the next day too. But my prayers don't seem to be answered as yours do. Maybe I lack faith.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The Ten Commandments are the character of God in writing. They have been around since before the angels.

Breaking the commandments demands death of the sinner.
Yes. Is anyone saying the sinner does not die?

Quote:
Satan took this fact and twisted it to say God is a tyrant because He will destroy anyone who does not comply to His will in perfect righteousness. This is what you and APL are doing in your argument Kland. But it will soon be seen how wrong you are.
(Are you casting contempt here?)

Through generation after generation, from age to age, Satan has gathered human agencies through whom to work out his diabolical purposes, and to bring about the enforcement of his plans and devices in the earth. The great putrid fountain of evil has been continually flowing through human society. Though unable to expel God from His throne, Satan has charged God with satanic attributes and has claimed the attributes of God as his own. . . . Through his serpentine sharpness, through his crooked practices, he has drawn to himself the homage that human beings should have given to God, and has planted his satanic throne between the human worshiper and the divine Father.—Manuscript 39, 1894 (Review and Herald, Apr. 14, 1896). {CTr 10.4}

Can you see how you are not saying the same as Ellen White says? You are saying that satan (and us) is claiming God is a tyrant. Destroying is an act of a tyrant. Satan says God is going to destroy. By saying He is going to destroy is saying God is a tyrant. However, she is saying he is charging God with satanic attributes. Do you see a difference between merely calling God a tyrant because he does the acts of a tyrant with saying He has the attributes (does the acts) of a tyrant?


By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in Heaven, causing him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion. {4SP 320.1}

Misrepresenting the character of God caused Him to be regarded as tyrannical.

Do you see a difference between calling God a tyrant and causing Him to be regarded as tyrannical?

God's word, rightly understood and applied, is a safeguard against spiritualism. An eternally burning hell preached from the pulpit, and kept before the people, does injustice to the benevolent character of God. It presents Him as the veriest tyrant in the universe. This widespread dogma has turned thousands to universalism, infidelity, and atheism.
1T 344.2}

Saying God is going to torture people is presenting him as a tyrant.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 07:13 PM

Sigve Tonstad, MD, PhD: In conversations with my children and close friends, the three distinctive Adventist beliefs I tend to emphasize are the right picture of God, the cosmic conflict, and the non-immortality of the soul, to put the latter in somewhat archaic terms. These are existentially important beliefs to me. I could belong not to a church that believes in an everlasting hell. My church [SDA], too, needs to do better with regard to notions of divine retribution. We should be able to say without flinching that God does not do torture.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
We all need prayer brother, and if you are willing to offer one I am willing to accept it, but I don't see you offering one, I only see you use the fact to cast contempt.
I did pray for you and the next day too. But my prayers don't seem to be answered as yours do. Maybe I lack faith.


See, it works this way. If you are going to pray for a brother, you don't use it as a weapon and say "You need prayer" which is condescending and contemptuous, without telling the brother about your efforts to do so.

If the Holy Spirit was motivating you to say what you did you would say "Brother I am praying for you". But that was not in your heart, so everything you are saying in defense of your offense is a lie.

Also, God cannot change the heart of someone else unless God and the person wants it that way. I am sharing what God has told me directly, so from my perspective God would never answer your prayer to change my heart on this subject because I am where He wants me to be here, it is you who needs changing but you refuse.

If you will look back on this thread and others you will see how many times I already directly said I will pray for you but then God also told me and you have proven that you will never change your heart on this subject which I have also stated directly on this thread several times.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
The Ten Commandments are the character of God in writing. They have been around since before the angels.

Breaking the commandments demands death of the sinner.
Yes. Is anyone saying the sinner does not die?

Quote:
Satan took this fact and twisted it to say God is a tyrant because He will destroy anyone who does not comply to His will in perfect righteousness. This is what you and APL are doing in your argument Kland. But it will soon be seen how wrong you are.
(Are you casting contempt here?)

Through generation after generation, from age to age, Satan has gathered human agencies through whom to work out his diabolical purposes, and to bring about the enforcement of his plans and devices in the earth. The great putrid fountain of evil has been continually flowing through human society. Though unable to expel God from His throne, Satan has charged God with satanic attributes and has claimed the attributes of God as his own. . . . Through his serpentine sharpness, through his crooked practices, he has drawn to himself the homage that human beings should have given to God, and has planted his satanic throne between the human worshiper and the divine Father.—Manuscript 39, 1894 (Review and Herald, Apr. 14, 1896). {CTr 10.4}

Can you see how you are not saying the same as Ellen White says? You are saying that satan (and us) is claiming God is a tyrant. Destroying is an act of a tyrant. Satan says God is going to destroy. By saying He is going to destroy is saying God is a tyrant. However, she is saying he is charging God with satanic attributes. Do you see a difference between merely calling God a tyrant because he does the acts of a tyrant with saying He has the attributes (does the acts) of a tyrant?


By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in Heaven, causing him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion. {4SP 320.1}

Misrepresenting the character of God caused Him to be regarded as tyrannical.

Do you see a difference between calling God a tyrant and causing Him to be regarded as tyrannical?

God's word, rightly understood and applied, is a safeguard against spiritualism. An eternally burning hell preached from the pulpit, and kept before the people, does injustice to the benevolent character of God. It presents Him as the veriest tyrant in the universe. This widespread dogma has turned thousands to universalism, infidelity, and atheism.
1T 344.2}

Saying God is going to torture people is presenting him as a tyrant.



So you say that Ellen White says God is a Tyrant? This is the result of your indiscression, you will leave the church because you do not agree with the doctrines.

"And on “whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” The people who rejected Christ were soon to see their city and their nation destroyed. Their glory would be broken, and scattered as the dust before the wind. And what was it that destroyed the Jews? It was the rock which, had they built upon it, would have been their security. It was the goodness of God despised, the righteousness spurned, the mercy slighted. Men set themselves in opposition to God, and all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction. All that God ordained unto life they found to be unto death. In the Jews’ crucifixion of Christ was involved the destruction of Jerusalem. The blood shed upon Calvary was the weight that sank them to ruin for this world and for the world to come. So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God’s grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed. {DA 600.2}
By many illustrations and repeated warnings, Jesus showed what would be the result to the Jews of rejecting the Son of God. In these words He was addressing all in every age who refuse to receive Him as their Redeemer. Every warning is for them. The desecrated temple, the disobedient son, the false husbandmen, the contemptuous builders, have their counterpart in the experience of every sinner. Unless he repent, the doom which they foreshadowed will be his. {DA 600.3}


The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” Isaiah 26:21. “And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.” Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God’s unmingled wrath (TWO DIFFERENT CAUSES), fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth—priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. “And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried.” Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}
At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth—consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. “Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.” “The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.” “Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned.” Isaiah 24:1, 3, 5, 6. {GC 657.1}


You twist the truth to support your lie, and you are trying to cast contempt on the Spirit of Prophecy.

I don't see you making any comments on the quotes I was inspired to use. Instead you use conjecture and diabolical disception to try to make the Spirit of Prophecy contradict itself.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 11:03 PM

Kland this is the truth, you are disregarding the words God has given His prophet on this subject and you are arguing from ignorance.

You say that God's justice is torture and tyranical.

That is on your head.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: kland


"God's word, rightly understood and applied, is a safeguard against spiritualism. An eternally burning hell preached from the pulpit, and kept before the people, does injustice to the benevolent character of God. It presents Him as the veriest tyrant in the universe. This widespread dogma has turned thousands to universalism, infidelity, and atheism.
1T 344.2}

Saying God is going to torture people is presenting him as a tyrant.



Where in anything that I said or quoted did I mention an eternally burning hell? You continually use quotes out of context which is supporting the fact that God keeps telling me that you are here only to do evil to the church.

You are shameless.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/24/14 11:56 PM

Satan took the truth that God destroys sin and sinners and twisted it like you both are doing.

Satan used lies to twist the truth to make it look like God is a tyrant in destroying the wicked. He exagerated the issues to cause men like you to see God as a tyrant in His execution of Justice.

Satan took the truth and added the lie that God will burn sinners forever, and this is what we are warned not to present God like to the world.

You used the quotes that prove all of this, yet you do not see the truth inside those quotes that disprove your stand, which shows blatant ignorance, which proves you are not being led by the Spirit of God WHO IS FLAWLESS.

If God was motivating you He would reveal the truth that you are missing inside the exact quotes you use from the Spirit of Prophecy.

In other words God is proving your ignorance and complacency in trying to corrupt the truth. He causes you to contradict yourself by quoting the Testimonies that prove you are wrong.

Like Baalam, you try to pronounce a curse and it comes out a blessing for those led by the Spirit.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: jsot
Satan took the truth that God destroys sin and sinners and twisted it like you both are doing.
Satan took the truth, that if you sin, you will die, and twisted it to if you sin, God will kill you. This idea in fact supports the immortality of the soul, because sin is not the real cause of death, God is. And it God did not act, you would live forever!

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 04:19 AM

God has the ability to keep even the incorrigible rebel alive indefinitely if it suits Him.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
God has the ability to keep even the incorrigible rebel alive indefinitely if it suits Him.
But then it is Him keeping them alive, not allowing the consequence of sin kill them. "God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin."
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:20 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
Satan took the truth that God destroys sin and sinners and twisted it like you both are doing.
Satan took the truth, that if you sin, you will die, and twisted it to if you sin, God will kill you. This idea in fact supports the immortality of the soul, because sin is not the real cause of death, God is. And it God did not act, you would live forever!


What a total misrepresentation of my faith. Proof that the Holy Spirit does not reside in you because He cannot lie.

When have I ever said that sin is not the cause of death?

God did not cause Satan to fall or Eve to be desceived...

"In the midst of Eden grew the tree of life, whose fruit had the power of perpetuating life. Had Adam remained obedient to God, he would have continued to enjoy free access to this tree and would have lived forever. But when he sinned he was cut off from partaking of the tree of life, and he became subject to death. The divine sentence, “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return,” points to the utter extinction of life... {GC 532.3}
The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah: “Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him.” “Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.” Isaiah 3:10, 11. “Though a sinner do evil an hundred times,” says the wise man, “and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked.” Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself “wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds;” “tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil.” Romans 2:5, 6, 9. {GC 540.3}
God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. “The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty.” Exodus 34:6, 7. “All the wicked will He destroy.” “The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalm 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour’s precept, “Love your enemies.” God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,—every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,—could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God’s verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1}
In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain’s teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until “the wickedness of man was great in the earth” and “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and in Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
“The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: “I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is “the second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam’s sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;” “for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. “All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” John 5:28, 29. They who have been “accounted worthy” of the resurrection of life are “blessed and holy.” “On such the second death hath no power.” Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: “Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” And another declares: “They shall be as though they had not been.” Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

You have proven over and over that you do not know the Glory of God APL and Kland. What a shame.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:23 AM

Quote:
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death.


If you contradict this statement you are not a true believer in the Spirit of Prophecy and you are not following Christ because you are misrepresenting and casting contempt on the Character of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: jsot
You have proven over and over that you do not know the Glory of God APL and Kland. What a shame.
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:44 AM

I am fully convicted by God through His Spirit in the name of Jesus that those who side against the truth on this issue are possessed by Satan trying to bring confusion into the church.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
You have proven over and over that you do not know the Glory of God APL and Kland. What a shame.
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


One text, you have built a whole doctrine off of one quote that you have missinterpreted. This is unbilical, we are to have two or more witnesses to establish a dictrine and I have provided dozens to your one. Obviously you do not know how to ballance truth.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 05:50 AM

You have no answer for this quote;

"But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death."

You do not know the glory of the Lord. You and Kland are going down a very dark path. See you on the other side.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jsot
You have proven over and over that you do not know the Glory of God APL and Kland. What a shame.
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


One text, you have built a whole doctrine off of one quote that you have missinterpreted[sic]. This is unbilical[sic], we are to have two or more witnesses to establish a dictrine[sic] and I have provided dozens to your one. Obviously you do not know how to ballance[sic] truth.
Do you have no answer for this quotation? Yes, it is pretty powerful. And there are more!
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
You have no answer for this quote;

"But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death."

You do not know the glory of the Lord. You and Kland are going down a very dark path. See you on the other side.
Cause and effect, "according to their works". No mystery. God is not the executioner. God is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
God has the ability to keep even the incorrigible rebel alive indefinitely if it suits Him.
But then it is Him keeping them alive, not allowing the consequence of sin kill them. "God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin."

He keeps them alive or He lets them die. That would be the case with or without sin. God has always been, and will always be, in charge of who lives and dies. To say that He is powerless to prevent death is incorrect.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/25/14 08:40 PM

Some SABBATH day thoughts on our non-violent God. Rest in Him.

"There are but two powers that control the minds of men—the power of God and the power of Satan. Christ is man’s Creator and Redeemer; Satan is man’s enemy and destroyer. {Te 276.3}
 
If He [Christ] lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. {15MR 104.1}
 
Satan, knowing that the empire he had usurped would in the end be wrested from him, determined to spare no pains to destroy as many as possible of the creatures whom God had created in his image. He hated man because Christ had manifested for him such forgiving love and pity, and he now prepared to practice upon him every species of deception by which he might be lost; he pursued his course with more energy because of his own hopeless condition. {3SP 194.2}
 
The only safeguard against his power is found in the presence of Jesus. Before men and angels Satan has been revealed as man's enemy and destroyer; Christ, as man's friend and deliverer. His Spirit will develop in man all that will ennoble the character and dignify the nature. It will build man up for the glory of God in body and soul and spirit. "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7. He has called us "to the obtaining of the glory"--character--"of our Lord Jesus Christ;" has called us to be "conformed to the image of His Son." 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Romans 8:29. {DA 341.1}
 
God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}
 
God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}
 
In this warfare there is no release. Satan's agents never pause in their work of destruction. Those who are in Christ's service must guard every outpost. To save perishing souls from ruin is our object. This is a work of infinite greatness, and man can not hope to obtain success in it unless he unites with the divine Worker. {RH, May 3, 1906 par. 11}
Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord’s restraining power is not exercised. 6 T. 388, 389.
 
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}
 
Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}
 
God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}
 
You will always find Satan on the side of the oppressor. God does not oppress. God does not bring them [people] in by persecution, for He has let them live all this time, but when Satan gets the lines in his hands, he takes the spurious sabbath and sets it up against the perfection of Christ and [says] you have got to keep it. That is the spirit of persecution and oppression and bondage. {5MR 47.1}
 
In the time of trouble just before the coming of Christ, the righteous will be preserved through the ministration of heavenly angels; but there will be no security for the transgressor of God's law. Angels cannot then protect those who are disregarding one of the divine precepts. {PP 256.1}
 
It is God who holds in his hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; he will not always to trifled with. Already his judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and ship-wreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword, and famine follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. {ST, September 10, 1885 par. 8}

Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. {GC 492.1}

The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ. . . . {1SM 355.1}

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

With these words of light and truth before them, how dare men neglect so plain a duty? How dare they disobey God when obedience to His requirements means His blessing in both temporal and spiritual things, and disobedience means the curse of God? Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest. {6T 388.3}


Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jeremiah 9:23-24 Thus said the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD.

Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 John 4:9-10 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/27/14 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
If He [Christ] lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. {15MR 104.1}

Nevertheless, Jesus lets go if and when He chooses, not because He was forcibly made to let go. He can keep even the most hardened sinner alive indefinitely if He so chose. So whenever Jesus does let go, it is always with the knowledge that Satan is waiting to destroy.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/27/14 07:30 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
If He [Christ] lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. {15MR 104.1}

Nevertheless, Jesus lets go if and when He chooses, not because He was forcibly made to let go. He can keep even the most hardened sinner alive indefinitely if He so chose. So whenever Jesus does let go, it is always with the knowledge that Satan is waiting to destroy.


God is not arbitrary in when He let go.
Originally Posted By: EGW
But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC36.1}
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/27/14 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
So you say that Ellen White says God is a Tyrant? This is the result of your indiscression, you will leave the church because you do not agree with the doctrines.
This is an example of you applying your claims and attributes onto me, much like satan applies his attributes upon God. Why are you doing this? Why did you say that I am saying this statement when I said you are the one causing God to be regarded as a tyrant?


Quote:
Originally Posted By: kland


"God's word, rightly understood and applied, is a safeguard against spiritualism. An eternally burning hell preached from the pulpit, and kept before the people, does injustice to the benevolent character of God. It presents Him as the veriest tyrant in the universe. This widespread dogma has turned thousands to universalism, infidelity, and atheism.
1T 344.2}

Saying God is going to torture people is presenting him as a tyrant.



Where in anything that I said or quoted did I mention an eternally burning hell?
Fair enough. If not eternally, how long do you think God is going to torture people who disagree with Him at the end?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 01/27/14 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
If He [Christ] lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. {15MR 104.1}

Nevertheless, Jesus lets go if and when He chooses, not because He was forcibly made to let go. He can keep even the most hardened sinner alive indefinitely if He so chose. So whenever Jesus does let go, it is always with the knowledge that Satan is waiting to destroy.


God is not arbitrary in when He let go.

I agree that God is not arbitrary when He lets go. But do you agree that neither is God surprised when He lets go? He knows what will happen when He lets go.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God was a wise and compassionate lawgiver, judging all cases righteously, and without partiality. While the Israelites were in Egyptian bondage, they were surrounded with idolatry. The Egyptians had received traditions in regard to sacrificing. They did not acknowledge the existence of the God of Heaven. They sacrificed to their idol gods. With great pomp and ceremony they performed their idol worship. They erected altars to the honor of their gods, and they required even their own children to pass through the fire. After they had erected their altars they required their children to leap over the altars through the fire. If they could do this without their being burned, the idol priests and people received it as an evidence that their god accepted their offerings, and favored especially the person who passed through the fiery ordeal. He was loaded with benefits, and was ever afterward greatly esteemed by all the people. He was never allowed to be punished, however aggravating might be his crimes. If another person who leaped through the fire was so unfortunate as to be burned, then his fate was fixed; for they thought that their gods were angry, and would be appeased with nothing short of the unhappy victim's life, and he was offered up as a sacrifice upon their idol altars. {3SG 303.1}

Even some of the children of Israel had so far degraded themselves as to practice these abominations, and God caused the fire to kindle upon their children, whom they made to pass through the fire. They did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations; but God deprived them of their children by causing the fire to consume them in the act of passing through it. {3SG 303.2}

Because the people of God had confused ideas of the ceremonial sacrificial offerings, and had heathen traditions confounded with their ceremonial worship, God condescended to give them definite directions, that they might understand the true import of those sacrifices which were to last only till the Lamb of God should be slain, who was the great antitype of all their sacrificial offerings. {3SG 304.1}


Ellen White says God caused the fire to kill those children. That God did not merely "permit" it is evident in the facts presented in the first paragraph, where the children who were made to jump through the flames were not ordinarily killed.

God is clearly punishing the parents here by killing their children as a consequence for their perversion of the sacrificial types and their observance of idolatrous practices.

NOTE: It is evident that the parents had not intended for their children to die, for, as Mrs. White says, "they did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations." They would not have sacrificed the burned children themselves, to cause their deaths--they just wanted to make them jump through the flames.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 08:04 AM

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

God "sent"? No, God permitted.

The Israelites, up to this time, had been preserved from these serpents in the wilderness by a continual miracle; for the wilderness through which they traveled was infested with poisonous serpents. {1SP 315.1}

Moses told the people that God had hitherto preserved them, that they had not been harmed by the serpents, which was a token of his care for them. He told them it was because of their needless murmurings, complaining of the hardships in their journey, that God had permitted them to be bitten of serpents. This was to show them that God had preserved them from many and great evils, which if he had permitted to come upon them, they would have suffered that which they could call hardships. But God had prepared the way before them. There was no sickness among them. Their feet had not swollen in all their journeys, neither had their clothes waxed old. God had given them angels' food, and purest water out of the flinty rock. And with all these tokens of his love, if they complained, he would send his judgments upon them for their ingratitude, and make them to realize his past merciful care for them, of which they had been unmindful. {1SP 315.2}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 08:20 AM

APL,

Do you not understand the effect of your logic? It is as if one were to say God or the angels don't eat food, they burn it, owing to the examples we have of such in the Bible--all while ignoring the fact that at other times, God and angels have eaten human food.

In other words, you cannot claim that when God permits something in one instance He can never cause it in another. Such reasoning is fallacious.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 08:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God was a wise and compassionate lawgiver, judging all cases righteously, and without partiality. While the Israelites were in Egyptian bondage, they were surrounded with idolatry. The Egyptians had received traditions in regard to sacrificing. They did not acknowledge the existence of the God of Heaven. They sacrificed to their idol gods. With great pomp and ceremony they performed their idol worship. They erected altars to the honor of their gods, and they required even their own children to pass through the fire. After they had erected their altars they required their children to leap over the altars through the fire. If they could do this without their being burned, the idol priests and people received it as an evidence that their god accepted their offerings, and favored especially the person who passed through the fiery ordeal. He was loaded with benefits, and was ever afterward greatly esteemed by all the people. He was never allowed to be punished, however aggravating might be his crimes. If another person who leaped through the fire was so unfortunate as to be burned, then his fate was fixed; for they thought that their gods were angry, and would be appeased with nothing short of the unhappy victim's life, and he was offered up as a sacrifice upon their idol altars. {3SG 303.1}

Even some of the children of Israel had so far degraded themselves as to practice these abominations, and God caused the fire to kindle upon their children, whom they made to pass through the fire. They did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations; but God deprived them of their children by causing the fire to consume them in the act of passing through it. {3SG 303.2}

Because the people of God had confused ideas of the ceremonial sacrificial offerings, and had heathen traditions confounded with their ceremonial worship, God condescended to give them definite directions, that they might understand the true import of those sacrifices which were to last only till the Lamb of God should be slain, who was the great antitype of all their sacrificial offerings. {3SG 304.1}


Ellen White says God caused the fire to kill those children. That God did not merely "permit" it is evident in the facts presented in the first paragraph, where the children who were made to jump through the flames were not ordinarily killed.

God is clearly punishing the parents here by killing their children as a consequence for their perversion of the sacrificial types and their observance of idolatrous practices.

NOTE: It is evident that the parents had not intended for their children to die, for, as Mrs. White says, "they did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations." They would not have sacrificed the burned children themselves, to cause their deaths--they just wanted to make them jump through the flames.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I would invite any of the anti-punish folk to explain how God did not cause the deaths of the children in the above example.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 05:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Do you not understand the effect of your logic? It is as if one were to say God or the angels don't eat food, they burn it, owing to the examples we have of such in the Bible--all while ignoring the fact that at other times, God and angels have eaten human food.

In other words, you cannot claim that when God permits something in one instance He can never cause it in another. Such reasoning is fallacious.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Do you understand the affect of your logic? It makes God look like a sadistic monster.

It is interesting that you do not deny that God did not "send" the fiery serpents, but permitted them, correct? Do not ignore all the EGW has written in interpreting all her writing. God is not the executioner of the sentenced against transgression. We have no idea how much we owe of peace and safety to God! How did God kill Saul? He did not prevent it. How did God kill the children above? He did not prevent it.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

That is Good News.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

That is Good News.


It is that very light, APL, which finishes the darkness. They cannot coexist. God's light destroys the darkness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 06:37 PM

APL,

It is worth noting that you did not deny that God punished the Israelites for passing their children through the fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 07:17 PM

Does light "destroy" darkness, or is it darkness is not found in light? I'm sure you have some "explanation" that will be..
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

It is worth noting that you did not deny that God punished the Israelites for passing their children through the fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You have God actively killing children. God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/03/14 09:03 PM

Green, If I told someone they should not drink soft drinks but they insist on doing so, and drink diet sodas thinking they are healthy. If I then tell them that if they are going to drink sodas, they should drink non-diet sodas because of all the worse chemicals in diet sodas.

Would you then say that kland recommends and condones drinking sugary sodas?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/04/14 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You have God actively killing children.


You didn't read the quote I posted. It is Ellen White, not me, who has it thus.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/04/14 05:27 AM

A new video to me. Hm...

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/04/14 05:27 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Green, If I told someone they should not drink soft drinks but they insist on doing so, and drink diet sodas thinking they are healthy. If I then tell them that if they are going to drink sodas, they should drink non-diet sodas because of all the worse chemicals in diet sodas.

Would you then say that kland recommends and condones drinking sugary sodas?

No. I might advise people likewise, and I wouldn't be recommending drinking sodas.

I fail to see any connection to our subject here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/06/14 05:31 PM

Yep, you fail, is right.

And you did not even understand what I specifically said, let alone what I was saying.

I bet APL understands. And I would even think MM would understand, although he would reject it.

Too bad you think most things are off topic, except for the off topic topics you instigate.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You have God actively killing children.


You didn't read the quote I posted. It is Ellen White, not me, who has it thus.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Here is a better quote about how God has killed children in the past.

"Elisha was a man of mild and kindly spirit; but that he could also be stern is shown by his course when, on the way to Bethel, he was mocked by ungodly youth who had come out of the city. These youth had heard of Elijah’s ascension, and they made this solemn event the subject of their jeers, saying to Elisha, “Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.” At the sound of their mocking words the prophet turned back, and under the inspiration of the Almighty he pronounced a curse upon them. The awful judgment that followed was of God. “There came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two” of them. 2 Kings 2:23, 24. {PK 235.2}

Under inspiration from God Elisha cursed those fourty-two children and the bears ate them. Why would God do this?

"Had Elisha allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he would have continued to be ridiculed and reviled by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save in a time of grave national peril might have been defeated. This one instance of terrible severity was sufficient to command respect throughout his life. For fifty years he went in and out of the gate of Bethel, and to and fro in the land, from city to city, passing through crowds of idle, rude, dissolute youth; but none mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High. {PK 236.1}
Even kindness should have its limits. Authority must be maintained by a firm severity, or it will be received by many with mockery and contempt. The so-called tenderness, the coaxing and indulgence, used toward youth by parents and guardians, is one of the worst evils which can come upon them. In every family, firmness, decision, positive requirements, are essential. {PK 236.2}

If you look carefully at this quote you will see all the reasons that God MUST destroy certain people.

The mission of God to save is much more important than individual fallen lives. He sees our hearts and these children had crossed the line.

If you reject God, you have become His enemy, and it is easier for His message to have power if the path is cleared for His servants.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 09:03 AM

james - We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 02:16 PM

"The protection we enjoy". Is this after probation? Does God protect the sinner after probation? What about during the second resurrection?

This quote is specifically talking about the death that every person must go through in this life. The physical death of Most sinners is brought on by inevitable self destruction. But there are many instances that this was not the case. God has destroyed many sinners directly through the flood and so many other ways that we have discussed over and over.

But the fact that you keep using texts out of context is very diliberately anoying.

You didn't even realize that you quoted proof against your own understanding of this quote. The end of that quote reads...

"Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

Since this was in the destruction of Jerusalem, this is at the end of this life.

Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 04:09 PM

james - open you mind! This quote is telling you HOW the "certain punishment" came on Jerusalem, how God was involved. God is not the executioner. God destroys no man! All suffering comes as a result of transgression of God's law. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. We should not make the same mistake!
Posted By: Naphtali

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 10:58 PM

I think this thread has well established in the minds of all but a single individual that God does indeed punish. What is the point in continuing this discussion?
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 11:22 PM

Hi Naphtali, welcom to Maritime.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/08/14 11:35 PM

APL, would you even be able to admit that you are wrong if I found the perfect quote from Ellen White to sum this up?

Here it is, and this is the last that I will say on this subject.

APL if you cannot read this quote and repent of your statement then there is nothing that could reason with you.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.
Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?
—Manuscript Releases 12:207-209; Manuscript Releases 10:265 (1876).

APL and Kland say that God will not do what He says He will do.

You're on your own. After all these attempts to reason with you both you have proven you are not willing to listen and learn.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/09/14 06:14 AM

jim - jim - jim - - your hand it going to hurt with so much desk pounding!

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

And what is the penalty of sin? Death. And how is God involved? Answer:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

If you persist in sin, God will eventually let you suffer the consequence of sin. Sin pays its wage. When God withdraws, all hell breaks loose. God will not force you to follow Him. If you want to know what happens to sinnes and God's response to sinners, look to Christ and Him crucified.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/09/14 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." {GC 36.1}

If you persist in sin, God will eventually let you suffer the consequence of sin. Sin pays its wage. When God withdraws, all hell breaks loose. God will not force you to follow Him. If you want to know what happens to sinnes and God's response to sinners, look to Christ and Him crucified.


Look, for one thing, only a familiar spirit would make someone act familiar towards someone he doesn't know, as if they are long lost buddies. My name is Brother James or Mr. Tierney, not Jim.

Second, let’s look at the quote above that you have built your whole doctrine on.

"He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves".

This is the whole crux of your debate. Correct?

This one statement itself proves you are misapplying this quote. Is there any mercy shown in the second resurrection? No there is not. So this text MUST be speaking about when there is still mercy, correct? He leaves men to die in their sins instead of saving them from them because they have neglected His mercy. How hard is that? This has nothing to do with the punishment that GOD inflicts against those who reject His mercy, it has nothing to do with the second death.

I and dozens of others have supplied statements and bible verses in juxtaposition with this one quote you keep misapplying, to show you are wrong.

You are so blind I can't stand it, either that or you are intentionally trying to spew confusion in the church.

The quote you keep misapplying is not talking about the punishment for sin in the second death... and I would venture to say that that quote is not universal in this life either since there is so much biblical truth that you completely close your mind to, stating that God does sometimes have to get involved directly or through His ambassadors.

If you can do this for this one very important subject imagine what else you are corrupting.

APL, I have prayed about this matter, and God continually answers resoundingly that you are wrong about this. He has kept me in this debate for the purpose of making sure you don't continue to misapply this prophetic truth into the minds of others incorrectly without defending His truth. He has told me to leave it alone now.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/09/14 05:39 PM

Mr. Tierney - what is the sentence against transgression? First death? Nope.

There are many many examples in the Bible of how God treats sinners. And the best evidence is Jesus himself. Mr. Tierney - open your eyes to the truth about God. Christ demonstrated what the second death will be like. It is not pretty. Sin is what killed Jesus, perhaps you don't believe that. Sin is what kills the sinner. "Christ was holy, harmless, undefiled. He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth." That is our God, our Creator.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 02:05 AM

You would have us believe that God merely steps back while self, sin, and Satan execute justice and mercy upon themsleves, bringing about their own destruction without any participation from God. It's the Watchmaker leaving his creation to run on its own.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 03:00 AM

SIN is the destructive agent. 

I was today reading and preparing a manuscript by Pastor Weiland on the 1888 message. The paper compares 3 views. [1] The popular Evangelical view, [2]The Contemporary Seventh-day Adventist View, and [3]The 1888 Message As Brought by Jones and Waggoner and Endorsed By Ellen G. White.

I will quote point #8.
The Evangelical view:
God will torture the lost in an ever burning hell. The doctrine of natural immortality requires this. The egocentric motif thus distorts their view of the character of God.

The Contemporary Seventh-day Adventist view:
God will torture and destroy the lost in hell-fire that annihilates.

The 1888 Message of Jones and Waggoner view:
"God destroys no man; every man who is destroyed will destroy himself." Sin, not God, destroys the wicked. The second death is a merciful thing to end their real misery.

Which view is most popular in the SDA church still?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 06:10 AM

APL,

Are you saved by faith? Then you cannot be saved by grace, right? Are you saved by grace? Then you cannot be saved by faith, right?

Your view is too narrow. Open your eyes. Both of the last two options you listed above have truth. They are NOT (as you suppose) mutually exclusive.

Just as we can be saved both by grace and by faith, so also is both sin and God to have a part in the destruction of the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 08:13 AM

Are you saved by faith? Then you cannot be saved by grace, right? Are you saved by grace? Then you cannot be saved by faith, right?

Green - you want to know the definition of Grace? Read Isaiah 53:11 and Titus 3:5-7.

Your view is too narrow. Open your eyes. Both of the last two options you listed above have truth. They are NOT (as you suppose) mutually exclusive.

Green - as I suppose? WHERE do you get this from??? I know you think my view narrow. But guess what? I think your view widely wrong.

Just as we can be saved both by grace and by faith, so also is both sin and God to have a part in the destruction of the wicked.

Yes, God has a part! He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

Green, how would your view fulfill the last message of mercy to the world, a view that is to be illuminating on the character of God? Green - Behold your God!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green, how would your view fulfill the last message of mercy to the world, a view that is to be illuminating on the character of God? Green - Behold your God!


My God has asked me to help spread the message of the third angel. I think you have stopped short of this message, or choose only the more happy part of it to give. But God wants it given in its entirety, including the first part of the message (the majority of it).

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Your focus is verse 12. My view allows verses 9, 10, and 11 as well. Seventy-five percent, or more, of the message of the third angel is exactly that which you reject.

If you do not believe that you are rejecting these verses, I invite you to share with us how you are spreading this portion of the third angel's message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/10/14 07:27 PM

Green - you don't recognize that my question is based on EGW, in what she it saying is the last message of mercy, a message the is illuminating, a message the reveals the character of God, and how that fits the 3AM...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If you do not believe that you are rejecting these verses, I invite you to share with us how you are spreading this portion of the third angel's message.


Please answer this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

"He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves".

This is the whole crux of your debate. Correct?

This one statement itself proves you are misapplying this quote. Is there any mercy shown in the second resurrection? No there is not. So this text MUST be speaking about when there is still mercy, correct?
Well I'm not sure here, but better look at the logistics of your statement.

If mercy is rejected, is there still mercy? And if there is no longer mercy, can mercy still be accepted?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
You would have us believe that God merely steps back while self, sin, and Satan execute justice and mercy upon themsleves, bringing about their own destruction without any participation from God. It's the Watchmaker leaving his creation to run on its own.
Are you saying that sin does not kill?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Your view is too narrow. Open your eyes. Both of the last two options you listed above have truth. They are NOT (as you suppose) mutually exclusive.
So are you saying that it is true that "God will torture and destroy the lost in hell-fire that annihilates"?

Or are you saying there is partial truth in it?

But you indicate that it is not true that "God will torture the lost in an ever burning hell".

So how long of time do you think God will torture people?

Quote:
If you do not believe that you are rejecting these verses, I invite you to share with us how you are spreading this portion of the third angel's message.
So you expect APL to spread the message that God kills? Is that the Good News?

'Pardon me ma'am. I got some really Good News for you. God is going to kill those who disagree with Him. Don't you want to love and follow Him so He won't kill you?'

Is that the 'good news' you're spreading?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 09:52 PM

GC, you make an excellent point. The third angel's message is a warning and a promise - Everyone who receives the mark of the beast will suffer the wrath of God in the lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/11/14 09:58 PM

Woe unto those who refuse to warn the world, who refuse to proclaim the third angel's message:

Ezekiel
3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/12/14 12:24 AM

These arguments go back to deeper theological differences than merely what causes the death of the lost in the end.

The one position gets rid of the whole legal system of God's government, His law, His authority as the law Giver, and the penalties of transgressing the law.

It turns everything into NATURAL cause and effect.
The argument would lead us to believe that God didn't make any laws -- He only warned of cause and effect.
The argument would lead us to believe there is no penalty in God's government for disobedience, just a reaping of natural effect.
Even the eating of the forbidden fruit is given a "natural" explanation that it contained some fearful thing in it, rather than that God would actually punish them for transgression by cutting them off from the tree of life.

In that argument Christ didn't have to die to vindicate God's law by suffering the penalty of that law, or to make it possible to forgive sins;
He died only to show what sin does, and demonstrate His love.

It removes from God any authority as a law giving King and Sovereign and Creator, and only allows Him to let cause and effect play out.

Personally I don't think the above vindicates God at all, it belittles Him.

Yes, God is allowing sin to play out it's cause and effect to show that His government is righteous and good and love.
He doesn't want forced obedience but obedience because we know His laws are righteous, holy and just.

But His allowing sin to play out it's cause and effect does not negate His right and sovereign power to be the Law Giver and punish the transgressors.

Those who transgress against God have insulted God twice over --
1. They only have life in the first place because God blessed them with it.
2. Christ's death on the cross is a love filled invitation to forsake the ways of death by His power and His blood, and come to fountain of life and live eternally.

And we should chose Him because He made it possible by sending Jesus to suffer the wrath demanded by the law against transgression, so we could have life eternal in His just and loving government.

Everyone who doesn't chose life in Christ will die in the lake of fire no matter how you rephrase it.

The gospel -- good news is --
Christ died to wipe away your sins and give you a clean slate -- to give you His merits to present before the throne of God, which alone are good enough to enter heaven, and He will give you the Holy Spirit to lead you into putting away sin and living as a child of God awaiting His coming with eager anticipation.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/12/14 12:45 AM

Why are some of you basing your soteriology on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul? Dig deeper.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/12/14 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, you make an excellent point. The third angel's message is a warning and a promise - Everyone who receives the mark of the beast will suffer the wrath of God in the lake of fire.

And what is God's wrath? Read Romans 1!
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/12/14 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Why are some of you basing your soteriology on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul? Dig deeper.
Do they not understand the implications of their teaching? God is not the problem, SIN is! It is Sin that kills.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/12/14 08:13 PM

Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices.

Quote:
Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 01:35 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
And what is God's wrath? Read Romans 1!

Is it a type of greenism? God's wrath is under discussion, so he defines what is under discussion by using the term?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 01:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices.

Quote:
Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners.

Quote:
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hmmmm.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices.

Quote:
Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners.


Unfortunately, MM, you words remind me too much of the words of a certain serpent in the Garden of Eden. Is your soteriology based on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, as I asked before?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 01:49 AM

MM: "Sin does not kill". This is a most profound belief. I guess, sin is really not that bad. What can sin do? Did God kill Christ? NO. Christ was slain by the sin of the world.

Psalms 34:21-22 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. 22 The LORD redeems the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

James 1:12-15 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 09:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
M: Sin does not kill. The results of sinning may or may not end in suffering or first death. Jesus manages the outcome of sinful choices.

Quote:
Genesis
3:22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

M: The truth is sinners eventually die the first death because Jesus denies them access to the tree of life. Otherwise, they would live forever as sinners. Which is proof sin does not kill sinners.

J: Is your soteriology based on the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, as I asked before?

No, it's based on Genesis 3:22 (see quote above). Ellen White elaborates:

Quote:
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." This was Satan's first lesson upon the immortality of the soul, and he has carried on this deception from that time to the present, and will carry it on until the captivity of God's children shall be turned. I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, and they were driven from the garden, lest they should partake of the tree of life, and be immortal sinners. The fruit of this tree was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword, and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}

Again, the fact sinners would live forever (immortal sinner) if they had regular access to the tree if life is proof sin does not kill.

Of course, as I said above, the results of sinning may or may not cause first death (it depends on whether or not Jesus intervenes and prevents it).
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/13/14 11:45 PM

I want to change the approach. Are there other possibilities of looking at this, MM? Would you be willing to spend an hour a day at the foot of the cross (my words) and contemplate. See how sin killed the Son of God that you may live.

Why did Jesus cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Then spend another half hour contemplating the meaning of 1 Tim. 6:11-16: 2 Tim. 1:8-14.

God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."

"For God so loved the world. . ."

Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 12:25 AM

My God is a savior and not an executioner. What is your god?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 12:51 AM

AMEN!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."

"For God so loved the world. . ."



While many of us may die in peace, God did impose a painful death on the Son of God.

"He bore insult and mockery, and a most painful death in the most shameful manner, in order that he might exalt and save the fallen sons and daughters of Adam from hopeless misery." -- Ellen White.

In another statement Mrs. White tells us that "for our sakes he endured the most ignominious and most painful death which it was possible for mortals to experience; a death which was appropriate for the basest of criminals was that which the Lord of Glory suffered to ransom guilty man."

Our ransom required such a death as Jesus suffered.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 02:04 AM

"a most painful death"

Did God torture Him?


Oh, wait, do I see you did say that. But Ellen White did not.

Don't suppose that will make a difference to your opinion....
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Of course, as I said above, the results of sinning may or may not cause first death (it depends on whether or not Jesus intervenes and prevents it).
And what causes the second life? Sin kills the first life, but God raises and kills the second life?! To answer what question? How would you answer that question, being that you already know that God kills, maims, and tortures people in the first and second life. What question would it answer? And to whom, assuming you believe only those will be saved who believe your "good news", that God kills?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
I want to change the approach. Are there other possibilities of looking at this, MM? Would you be willing to spend an hour a day at the foot of the cross (my words) and contemplate. See how sin killed the Son of God that you may live.

Why did Jesus cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Then spend another half hour contemplating the meaning of 1 Tim. 6:11-16: 2 Tim. 1:8-14.

God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."

"For God so loved the world. . ."


Johan, thank you for the excellent suggestion. I'm semi-retired and spend about 5 hours a day hiking while listening to the Bible and SOP on an iPod. "Faith cometh by hearing . . . the word of God." I've been doing this for about 14 years. One thing is clear:

Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Revelation
14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
"a most painful death"

Did God torture Him?


Oh, wait, do I see you did say that. But Ellen White did not.

Don't suppose that will make a difference to your opinion....



Ellen White used the phrase "a most painful death." That did not come from me. I did use quotation marks, and the post should be clear--so I'm not sure how you are managing to avert your eyes from the truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
God does not impose a painful death on His dying children, but gives them, through Jesus Christ, a living access to God,"who alone has immortality."

"For God so loved the world. . ."



While many of us may die in peace, God did impose a painful death on the Son of God.

"He bore insult and mockery, and a most painful death in the most shameful manner, in order that he might exalt and save the fallen sons and daughters of Adam from hopeless misery." -- Ellen White.

In another statement Mrs. White tells us that "for our sakes he endured the most ignominious and most painful death which it was possible for mortals to experience; a death which was appropriate for the basest of criminals was that which the Lord of Glory suffered to ransom guilty man."

Our ransom required such a death as Jesus suffered.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.



So, where will you go from there, Green?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 04:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
"a most painful death"

Did God torture Him?


Oh, wait, do I see you did say that. But Ellen White did not.

Don't suppose that will make a difference to your opinion....



Ellen White used the phrase "a most painful death." That did not come from me. I did use quotation marks, and the post should be clear--so I'm not sure how you are managing to avert your eyes from the truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Where does EGW say God inflicted the "most painful death"? Yes, Christ suffered a most painful death, but how was God involved exactly?

"Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face".

The hiding of the face. Where have you read that before? Oh - all over the Old Testament! Deuteronomy, Job, Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Micah. What killed the Son of God? Answer: SIN.

"Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God."
{GW92 466.2} "The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death." {PP 68.1}

Wait!! Sin causes death? Not God? That is correct. And it is Bibical? YES!

"Keep before the people the cross of Calvary. Show what caused the death of Christ--the transgression of the law."
{6T 54.1}

Wait!! Transgression of the law causes the death? (ie sin) Not God? Correct!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 04:20 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Wait!! Sin causes death? Not God? That is correct. And it is Bibical? YES!


You are gravely in error.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}


By your statement, in comparison with Mrs. White's testimony, quoting a holy angel, you would force us to believe that God's wrath is sin.

You are wrong. God's wrath is not sinful, nor is it sin. There is not a particle of sin in God.

It grieves me that you would misrepresent God as being sinful in doing what He will do--cause the destruction of the wicked. That is Satan's claim. Satan wants us to believe that God is not justified in carrying out the death sentence upon transgressors of the Divine law. But not only is God justified in doing this, He has redeemed His right to such justice by the death of Jesus, and has been merciful beyond any requirement in His law to delay the execution of His justice as long as He has. It is this very mercy that is a wonder to the watching universe. When His justice finally comes, we are told that all will say "Amen."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 06:27 AM

God wrath - what is it?
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

God's wrath is exactly as EGW has said it was in {GC 36.1}. God is not the executioner. When divine forbearance is reached, God gives the sinner up, lets them go, and yes, all hell breaks loose. Sin pays its wage. You falsely accuse me of believing that sinners do not parish. The real cause of death is sin, not God. We have so much evidence in scripture.

Sin: I know God is not a killer/murder, the only one accusing God of sin is who, me? Nope.

Though they professed to know and to worship the true and living God, they wholly misrepresented him and his character as revealed in his Son. Christ labored constantly to sweep away those misrepresentations, that the confidence of men in the love of God might be restored. {AU Gleaner, June 9, 1909 par. 5}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 07:01 AM

APL, it is fruitless for you to explain your view since you refuse to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment and war. If you cannot confess the obvious, who in their right mind will believe anything you say?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901).


I think that quote both answers the thread question and the question about God's taking life.

As the old saying goes, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." He who gave life has the power to remove it. Not only so, but He does.

There's a hidden truth in the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It was to impress Abraham's mind with the reality of the gospel, as well as to test his faith, that God commanded him to slay his son.


If Abraham's sacrifice of his son Isaac was but a type for a future Sacrifice, why didn't God tell Abraham that his son would "self destruct," or be killed by a lion/wolf/serpent to represent Satan's involvement or destruction by sin? Why was Abraham himself commanded to kill his son?

The same God who would, for the good of mankind, slay His own Son, would also, for the good of the universe, destroy all who willfully reject His salvation and continue in rebellion and disobedience.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 07:40 AM

Sigh - - God is not the executioner. When a sinner's limit is reached, what does God do, kill the sinner? No, He leaves the sinner, and allows the sinner to reap that which they have sown. Without God's intervention, sin will destroy the sinner.

Guess which quote of EGW I am using.

And NO - God did not Slay His own son.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 12:57 PM

Hebrews 12:2-3

King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


Sinners opposed Jesus at the cross. What does that mean?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
"a most painful death"

Did God torture Him?


Oh, wait, do I see you did say that. But Ellen White did not.

Don't suppose that will make a difference to your opinion....



Ellen White used the phrase "a most painful death." That did not come from me. I did use quotation marks, and the post should be clear--so I'm not sure how you are managing to avert your eyes from the truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
You said:
While many of us may die in peace, God did impose a painful death on the Son of God.

But quote:
"He bore insult and mockery, and a most painful death in the most shameful

I feel it will be as fruitful as in past topics to try and convince you that she did not say what you are saying.
Sigh.....
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901).


I think that quote both answers the thread question and the question about God's taking life.
.
Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 08:35 PM

God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901).
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 09:11 PM

MM - WHY do you ignore HOW God brings on the punishment????
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 09:20 PM

"He is the Friend of all who love and fear Him, and He will punish everyone who dares to lead [others] astray".

"His wrath will go forth, and he will destroy without remedy."

Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. {CC 98.5} Note that it is God, not sin, that will punish sinners.

What will be the wages of such a man? The indignation and wrath of God will punish him for sin. {2T 454.2} Note that the wages of sin is the indignation and wrath of God. God, not sin, punish sinners.

But in His death Christ gave evidence to the heavenly universe that God will punish for the sins of a guilty world. The cross of Christ testifies that the law is not changed to meet the sinner in his sins, but that through Christ's sacrifice the sinner has opportunity to repent. {BEcho, May 30, 1898 par. 2} Note that it is God, not sin, that will punish sinners.

Quote:
The crisis is fast approaching. The rapidly swelling figures show that the time for God's visitation has about come. Although loath to punish, nevertheless He will punish, and that speedily. {CCh 333.2}

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. {DD 16.4}

“It shall come to pass at that time,” saith the Lord, “that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees; that say in their heart, The Lord will not do good, neither will he do evil.” [Zephaniah 1:12.] “I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.” [Isaiah 13:11.] {GC88 309.3}

In the exercise of the longsuffering of God, He gives to nations a certain period of probation, but there is a point which, if they pass, there will be the visitation of God in His indignation. He will punish. {3SM 396.3}

The case of Uzziah the king reveals how God will punish the sin of presumption. {3BC 1132.6}

But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899). {4BC 1168.8}

God has given in his word abundant evidence that he will punish the transgressors of his law. Witness the visitation of his judgments upon the angels who kept not their first estate, on the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, on the people of Sodom, on unbelieving Israel. Their history is placed on record for our admonition. {4SP 360.3}

The Lord is not regardless of His people, and He will punish and reprove everyone who oppresses them. . . He is the Friend of all who love and fear Him, and He will punish everyone who dares to lead them astray from safe paths, putting them in positions of distress as they conscientiously endeavor to keep the way of the Lord and reach the abodes of the righteous. {UL 364.5}

While he bears long with the perversity and iniquity of those who profess to be Christians, but who are so only in name, God never forgets, and he will punish their transgressions and visit their iniquities. {RH, November 18, 1884 par. 5}

He is indignant with those who are greatly dishonoring him; and unless they change, he will punish them for their sins. {RH, January 12, 1911 par. 12}

God says, "I will punish the transgressor with my wrath, I will take him away in my hot displeasure." . . . In the days of Noah, the wickedness of man became so great that it was necessary for God to assert his authority and punish the transgressors of his law. . . the Lord swept that wicked race from the earth by the waters of the flood. {ST, December 15, 1881 par. 13}

God is infinitely holy, and he hates every species of iniquity. He is great in power, and he will punish the mightiest with the most depraved. He first gives to transgressors oft-repeated warnings. If the heart is hardened, if it refuses to heed the warnings given, and to accept the means of salvation, God will make men feel that as he has exalted and favored them, so he has to do with their casting down. When God has forsaken those whom he has highly favored, no earthly power can avail. God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but his forbearance has a limit, and when the boundary is passed, there is no second probation. His wrath will go forth, and he will destroy without remedy. {YI, March 28, 1905 par. 8}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 09:21 PM

MM - why do you ignore the Biblical definition of God's wrath????
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM - WHY do you ignore HOW God brings on the punishment????

You are mistaken. I have not ignored HOW or WHY. I agree with you Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting evil men and/or evil angels to mete out justice and judgment. However, I disagree with you this is the only ways and means Jesus employs to punish sinners. I have repeatedly stated on this thread and elsewhere the other ways and means He employs.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/14/14 09:35 PM

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death."
Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
{DA 764.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/15/14 06:19 AM

The following insight addresses APL's argument:

Christians commit a terrible mistake in calling this law [the law of Moses] severe and arbitrary, and then contrasting it with the gospel and mission of Christ in his ministry on earth, as though he were in opposition to the just precepts which they call the law of Moses. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 12}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/15/14 07:53 AM

Thanks for reminding me of this article. I was interested to see my previous markings in it.

The law of Jehovah, dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Continuing on: These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellow-man. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 13}

But back up some: "The necessity of this [the law] to preserve the people of God from becoming like the nations who had not the love and fear of God, is the same in this corrupt age, when the transgression of God's law prevails and idolatry exists to a fearful extent. If ancient Israel needed such security, we need it more, to keep us from being utterly confounded with the transgressors of God's law. The hearts of men are so prone to depart from God that there is a necessity for restraint and discipline." {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 6} I guess we need to stonings today for we need to the law even more!!! Perhaps we can make it part of the church service? [grief]

Two paragraphs on the article describes how ignorant the people were who left Egypt. They were ignorant, rebellious, rejectors of God's law. God still worked with them even when they wanted to do things their way.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/15/14 07:53 AM

Thanks for reminding me of this article. I was interested to see my previous markings in it.

The law of Jehovah, dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Continuing on: These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellow-man. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 13}

But back up some: "The necessity of this [the law] to preserve the people of God from becoming like the nations who had not the love and fear of God, is the same in this corrupt age, when the transgression of God's law prevails and idolatry exists to a fearful extent. If ancient Israel needed such security, we need it more, to keep us from being utterly confounded with the transgressors of God's law. The hearts of men are so prone to depart from God that there is a necessity for restraint and discipline." {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 6} I guess we need to stonings today for we need to the law even more!!! Perhaps we can make it part of the church service? [grief]

Two paragraphs on the article describes how ignorant the people were who left Egypt. They were ignorant, rebellious, rejectors of God's law. God still worked with them even when they wanted to do things their way.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/17/14 06:07 PM

k: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901).
The question is: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/17/14 07:44 PM

The Bible is clear about it. Capital punishment is not murder. It is justice.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 05:31 PM

Yes, you've said that. More than once. I think. Unless you are now changing it. You've said killing murderers is allowed, but not killing those who have not killed others.


But the question is: Are you saying God will only punish/kill murderers?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 05:40 PM

I think he's addressing the commands that God gave us, putting a distinction between two things.

However, I believe those commands prefigure what God will do in the future following the great judgment. God will capitally punish, but will not murder.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 06:44 PM

Depends upon what the definition of murder is. If you and MM define capital punishment as killing murderers, and if someone kills someone who has not killed someone else, then by your own definition, they are a murderer. Unless either God is not doing the killing or your definition is wrong.

Which then becomes the question, what is your distinction between murder and killing?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 06:48 PM

kland,

Again, you misrepresent the truth here. Read my response to your nearly identical argument in the other thread.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 07:15 PM

So how come you made your little fancy table chart, page after page I might add, that the only thing it said was that killing is allowed to kill the murderer?

MM clearly said only killing the murderer is allowed. Guess you disagree with him. Now.

I think we are left with, what is your distinction between killing and murder?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 08:03 PM

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. (God is not "a" destroyer)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 08:20 PM

Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses.

Quote:
Exodus
19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, [that ye] go [not] up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus
20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.
21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Deuteronomy
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

The laws regulating capital punishment are numerous. From unruly children to Sabbath-breakers, the law is comprehensive. They were "surely put to death" in different ways - some by stoning, some by fire, and some by hanging.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 08:24 PM

APL, the laws commanding capital punishment were enacted by Jesus. Executing capital punishment restores and preserves law and order. So, yes, Jesus is the Restorer.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 08:26 PM

Should we be putting to death those that hate their brother? They are murderers.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/18/14 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
I think we are left with, what is your distinction between killing and murder?

Kland, what is your distinction between killing and murder?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/19/14 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Should we be putting to death those that hate their brother? They are murderers.

The Law of Moses reflects God's law and will. Capital punishment is God's will. He commanded it. Nowadays we are no longer God's chosen nation. We are no longer under a theocracy. We are God's chosen people. And, in particular, the SDA Church is God's chosen church. However, because we are under the dominion of world governments we are under obligation to obey their laws. Since the laws of the land forbid churches executing capital punishment, and because we are no longer under the theocracy, we do not execute capital punishment.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/19/14 08:57 PM

Should we be putting to death those that hate their brother? The fact is, that we can not determine who is a real murderer. The physical act is only one sign. There are many murderers. Perhaps some even here on the forum. Murder is not defined by the physical act.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/19/14 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
I think we are left with, what is your distinction between killing and murder?

Kland, what is your distinction between killing and murder?
What makes you think I make a distinction? Why do you think MM created a whole string of threads?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/19/14 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses.
Weren't we talking about killing and murder? Why have you substituted capital punishment? Have you changed your thoughts?

Are you now saying all those who kill people are murderers unless they are doing it for capital punishment?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/19/14 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Should we be putting to death those that hate their brother? They are murderers.

The Law of Moses reflects God's law and will. Capital punishment is God's will. He commanded it. Nowadays we are no longer God's chosen nation. We are no longer under a theocracy. We are God's chosen people. And, in particular, the SDA Church is God's chosen church. However, because we are under the dominion of world governments we are under obligation to obey their laws. Since the laws of the land forbid churches executing capital punishment, and because we are no longer under the theocracy, we do not execute capital punishment.

So are you saying, if it wasn't for our nation's laws, we should put to death others for capital punishment? That it would be God's will if we did?

Are you also saying we should obey man's law of forbidding God's will of putting to death others we deem as hating their brother?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/20/14 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Should we be putting to death those that hate their brother? The fact is, that we can not determine who is a real murderer. The physical act is only one sign. There are many murderers. Perhaps some even here on the forum. Murder is not defined by the physical act.

You have refused to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment. You are denying the Word of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/20/14 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses.

K: Weren't we talking about killing and murder? Why have you substituted capital punishment? Have you changed your thoughts? Are you now saying all those who kill people are murderers unless they are doing it for capital punishment?

Capital punishment means killing criminals according to the Law of Moses. It is not murder. A murderer is guilty of murder. The people who execute criminals are not guilty of murder. Jesus commanded killing criminals guilty of offenses worthy of capital punishment.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/20/14 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: The Law of Moses reflects God's law and will. Capital punishment is God's will. He commanded it. Nowadays we are no longer God's chosen nation. We are no longer under a theocracy. We are God's chosen people. And, in particular, the SDA Church is God's chosen church. However, because we are under the dominion of world governments we are under obligation to obey their laws. Since the laws of the land forbid churches executing capital punishment, and because we are no longer under the theocracy, we do not execute capital punishment.

K: So are you saying, if it wasn't for our nation's laws, we should put to death others for capital punishment? That it would be God's will if we did? Are you also saying we should obey man's law of forbidding God's will of putting to death others we deem as hating their brother?

We are no longer under a theocracy. We are now under obligation to comply with the laws of the land. See Rom 13:1-7. The laws of the land regulate, dictate who can execute capital punishment. Churches are not authorized to execute capital punishment.

Israel, while under God and His theocracy, were obligated, duty-bound, to execute capital punishment in accordance with the Laws of Moses. The law is a transcript of God's character. It reflects His will and way. It is a sin to refuse to comply with God's law, His will. Executing capital punishment in accordance with the Law of Moses is God's will. Jesus commanded it. It is His will.

As a Church, not executing capital punishment in accordance with the Laws of Moses, is not a sin or violation of God's will. The responsibility rests with the government to execute capital punishment in accordance with the laws of the land. "For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/21/14 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses.

K: Weren't we talking about killing and murder? Why have you substituted capital punishment? Have you changed your thoughts? Are you now saying all those who kill people are murderers unless they are doing it for capital punishment?

Capital punishment means killing criminals according to the Law of Moses.
Again, why have you substituted capital punishment for killing? Killing was what we were talking about.
Quote:
It is not murder. A murderer is guilty of murder.
And that is the question! Your previous definition of which you seem to be waffling on. What is murder? Wait, wait, don't tell me. Murder is what a murderer is guilty of?

Quote:
The people who execute criminals are not guilty of murder. Jesus commanded killing criminals guilty of offenses worthy of capital punishment.
Seeing you have swapped capital punishment for killing, what about those times you are fond of listing where God commanded Moses or through Moses to slay utterly men, women, children, and even the livestock! Were all of those guilty of "offenses" "worthy" of capital punishment?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/21/14 01:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: The Law of Moses reflects God's law and will. Capital punishment is God's will. He commanded it. Nowadays we are no longer God's chosen nation. We are no longer under a theocracy. We are God's chosen people. And, in particular, the SDA Church is God's chosen church. However, because we are under the dominion of world governments we are under obligation to obey their laws. Since the laws of the land forbid churches executing capital punishment, and because we are no longer under the theocracy, we do not execute capital punishment.

K: So are you saying, if it wasn't for our nation's laws, we should put to death others for capital punishment? That it would be God's will if we did? Are you also saying we should obey man's law of forbidding God's will of putting to death others we deem as hating their brother?

We are no longer under a theocracy.
But the question was: if it wasn't for our nation's laws, we should put to death others for capital punishment?

Quote:
We are now under obligation to comply with the laws of the land. See Rom 13:1-7. The laws of the land regulate, dictate who can execute capital punishment. Churches are not authorized to execute capital punishment.
And when churches are not authorized to keep the Sabbath and required to keep Sunday, we are under obligation to comply with the laws of the land? Even if it's against God's laws and His will. Hmmm...

Quote:
Israel, while under God and His theocracy, were obligated, duty-bound, to execute capital punishment in accordance with the Laws of Moses. The law is a transcript of God's character. It reflects His will and way. It is a sin to refuse to comply with God's law, His will. Executing capital punishment in accordance with the Law of Moses is God's will. Jesus commanded it. It is His will.

As a Church, not executing capital punishment in accordance with the Laws of Moses, is not a sin or violation of God's will.
But you just said it was. You are saying it is God's will not to follow God's will. Would it be a sin to follow God's will instead of the state's? Hmmm...


Because you reject a God of love, a God not above His own laws, you are having to come up with all kinds of contortions and distortions. One thing leads to another, and now, think what an onlooker would think of your last few statements!
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/22/14 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
I think we are left with, what is your distinction between killing and murder?

Kland, what is your distinction between killing and murder?
What makes you think I make a distinction? Why do you think MM created a whole string of threads?

I thought that because I was under the impression that you don't believe God commanded murder.

In one thread, MM asked, "Did Jesus command Moses to kill criminals and combatants?" You responded, "Do you know of someone who was saying He didn't?" (See post #161551.)

You don't know anyone who says God didn't command killing. But you don't make a distinction between killing and murder? If so, that means you believe God commanded murder. That's noteworthy.

That is at least as unpalatable as the idea that we disobey God's commands in order to obey man's commands.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/22/14 08:49 PM

Kland, the fact you are unwilling to confess Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants leaves you in the unenviable position of an unbeliever. Your arguments against the Law of Moses are equivalent to blasphemy.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/24/14 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
You don't know anyone who says God didn't command killing. But you don't make a distinction between killing and murder? If so, that means you believe God commanded murder. That's noteworthy.

That is at least as unpalatable as the idea that we disobey God's commands in order to obey man's commands.
Killing, murder, what's the difference? Do you really think it's not murder to go into a country and slaughter, men, women, and children? How is that not murder?

But the question is, why did God command that. APL and Tom have answered that question many times. But when people do not know the difference between right and wrong, and the explanation is based upon people knowing the difference between right and wrong, then those people cannot understand what is being said. It's because since they see no difference, that God can do wrong, there need be no explanation as to why He told others to do wrong.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/24/14 07:52 PM

MM,

In my mind I am defending God as a God of love, a God of free choice, a God of restoring and not destroying, not forcing people to love Him, but allowing them of their own free choice choose life or death, and that death, not something that He directly and intentionally "punishes" them with, but as a natural result of their choice.

What about you? In your mind are you defending God as a god of force, a god of coercion, a Killer God? Why? Why do you need a God who is a premeditating, cold-blooded, killer?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/24/14 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
You don't know anyone who says God didn't command killing. But you don't make a distinction between killing and murder? If so, that means you believe God commanded murder. That's noteworthy.

That is at least as unpalatable as the idea that we disobey God's commands in order to obey man's commands.
Killing, murder, what's the difference? Do you really think it's not murder to go into a country and slaughter, men, women, and children? How is that not murder?

But the question is, why did God command that. APL and Tom have answered that question many times.

Why did God command what? Murder? Please specify so we are clear.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/25/14 08:49 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
MM,

In my mind I am defending God as a God of love, a God of free choice, a God of restoring and not destroying, not forcing people to love Him, but allowing them of their own free choice choose life or death, and that death, not something that He directly and intentionally "punishes" them with, but as a natural result of their choice.

What about you? In your mind are you defending God as a god of force, a god of coercion, a Killer God? Why? Why do you need a God who is a premeditating, cold-blooded, killer?

Jesus commanded capital punishment. He commanded combat. You have not confessed these truths. You are denying the Word of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: MM
Jesus commanded capital punishment. He commanded combat. You have not confessed these truths. You are denying the Word of God.

What was the difference in Paul's understanding of the OT before his conversion and after? Before his conversion, he was willing to kill for his religion, Judaism. After his conversion, he would never kill. Before his conversion, he followed tradition. After it he followed Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 05:07 AM

You are denying the Word of God. Jesus commanded capital punishment. He commanded combat. You have not confessed these truths.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 05:15 AM

Have you ever considered that you are basing your interpretation of scripture on tradition? Paul's religion was based on tradition. Paul knew the OT, and probably had memorized a good portion of it. What changed when he was converted? The scriptures? Nope. His understanding of the scriptures changed.

Question - What did God command when He brought them out of Egypt? And how did the people respond? It is a fascinating study...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 08:22 AM

You are ignoring the fact Jesus commanded capital punishment and combat. Doing so compromises everything you say. Nothing you say about it can be taken seriously.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
You don't know anyone who says God didn't command killing. But you don't make a distinction between killing and murder? If so, that means you believe God commanded murder. That's noteworthy.

That is at least as unpalatable as the idea that we disobey God's commands in order to obey man's commands.
Killing, murder, what's the difference? Do you really think it's not murder to go into a country and slaughter, men, women, and children? How is that not murder?

But the question is, why did God command that. APL and Tom have answered that question many times.

Why did God command what? Murder? Please specify so we are clear.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
MM,

In my mind I am defending God as a God of love, a God of free choice, a God of restoring and not destroying, not forcing people to love Him, but allowing them of their own free choice choose life or death, and that death, not something that He directly and intentionally "punishes" them with, but as a natural result of their choice.

What about you? In your mind are you defending God as a god of force, a god of coercion, a Killer God? Why? Why do you need a God who is a premeditating, cold-blooded, killer?

Jesus commanded capital punishment. He commanded combat. You have not confessed these truths. You are denying the Word of God.
'MM, the fact you are unwilling to confess Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children leaves you in the unenviable position of an unbeliever. You are denying the Word of God. You have not confessed these truths.'
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You are ignoring the fact Jesus commanded capital punishment and combat. Doing so compromises everything you say. Nothing you say about it can be taken seriously.
You ignore the fact that the people were never supposed to fight, and refuse to see how this true and confirmed by EGW and the Bible. You can not see how you are blinded to this truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

I disagree. Murder is against the law. Jesus commanded combat.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/26/14 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You are ignoring the fact Jesus commanded capital punishment and combat. Doing so compromises everything you say. Nothing you say about it can be taken seriously.

A: You ignore the fact that the people were never supposed to fight, and refuse to see how this true and confirmed by EGW and the Bible. You can not see how you are blinded to this truth.

You are continuing to ignore the truth - Jesus commanded capital punishment and combat. The Jews didn't command it. It was Jesus who commanded it. There is zero evidence in the Bible or the SOP Jesus prohibited it.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/27/14 03:14 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children...

Would it have been a sin to obey that command?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/27/14 07:52 AM

It was a sin to disobey His command. King Saul found that out the hard way.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/27/14 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

I disagree. Murder is against the law. Jesus commanded combat.
Tell us, how do you "combat" a child?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/27/14 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

I disagree. Murder is against the law. Jesus commanded combat.
Tell us, how do you "combat" a child?

Would it have been a sin to obey that command?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/27/14 09:33 PM

Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, women, and child. We "utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

You refuse to confess the truth. You are denying God's Word.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/28/14 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

I disagree. Murder is against the law. Jesus commanded combat.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It was a sin to disobey His command. King Saul found that out the hard way.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, women, and child. We "utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

You refuse to confess the truth. You are denying God's Word.
What truth am I refusing to confess? You say you disagree, but then you seem to emphasize "Jesus commanded" without any regard to what He commanded.

I also noticed that you had said:
Quote:
the fact Jesus commanded capital punishment and combat.
"and"

The original question was what is the distinction between murder and killing. But it seems you have separated things out into:
  • Killing
  • Murder
  • Capital punishment
  • Combat

No doubt, you will add more as you go.

But back to you emphasizing "Jesus commanded", it does appear to me that you are throwing any and all distinctions into the wind and disregarding whether He commanded Killing, Murder, Capital punishment, or Combat solely because it was "commanded".

Just like Hitler "commands" things, huh?
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/28/14 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

Would it have been a sin to obey that command?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 02/28/14 08:36 PM

Kland, please answer Asygo's question.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/01/14 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Kland
. . . Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children . . .

Would it have been a sin to obey that command?


In my childhood I had to go somewhere else when a lamb was slaughtered at the farm. I have never since seen it as a Christian duty to kill.

I was delighted when President Eisenhower exempted me from active duty, even though I had already been classified as a CO. We were taught that Seventh-day Adventists should not kill, and even Abraham Lincoln accepted that.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/01/14 09:07 PM

Johann, do you agree with Kland that "Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children"? If so, please answer the question - Would it have been a sin to obey that command?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/03/14 07:40 PM

Kland, please answer Asygo's question.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/04/14 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Exodus 15:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/04/14 08:16 PM

Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Revelation
14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Exodus 15:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The vague and fanciful interpretations of Scripture, and the many conflicting theories concerning religious faith, that are found in the Christian world are the work of our great adversary to confuse minds so that they shall not discern the truth. And the discord and division which exist among the churches of Christendom are in a great measure due to the prevailing custom of wresting the Scriptures to support a favorite theory. Instead of carefully studying God's word with humility of heart to obtain a knowledge of His will, many seek only to discover something odd or original. {GC 520.3}

In order to sustain erroneous doctrines or unchristian practices, some will seize upon passages of Scripture separated from the context, perhaps quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite. With the cunning of the serpent they entrench themselves behind disconnected utterances construed to suit their carnal desires. Thus do many willfully pervert the word of God. Others, who have an active imagination, seize upon the figures and symbols of Holy Writ, interpret them to suit their fancy, with little regard to the testimony of Scripture as its own interpreter, and then they present their vagaries as the teachings of the Bible. {GC 521.1}

Whenever the study of the Scriptures is entered upon without a prayerful, humble, teachable spirit, the plainest and simplest as well as the most difficult passages will be wrested from their true meaning. The papal leaders select such portions of Scripture as best serve their purpose, interpret to suit themselves, and then present these to the people, while they deny them the privilege of studying the Bible and understanding its sacred truths for themselves. {GC 521.2}

Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you.

2 Kings 6:19-23 And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. 20 And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria. 21 And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? 22 And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. 23 And he prepared great provision for them: and when they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went to their master. So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel.

Proverbs 24:17-18 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: 18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Exodus 15:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is what Adam Clarke says about that verse:
Originally Posted By: Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary
Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war - Perhaps it would be better to translate the words, Jehovah is the man or hero of the battle. As we scarcely ever apply the term to any thing but first-rate armed vessels, the change of the translation seems indispensable, though the common rendering is literal enough. Besides, the object of Moses was to show that man had no part in this victory, but that the whole was wrought by the miraculous power of God, and that therefore he alone should have all the glory.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Johann, do you agree with Kland that "Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children"? If so, please answer the question - Would it have been a sin to obey that command?


Yes, I have not been called to be a hangman/executioner.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 02:02 AM

ADMIN HAT ON!!!

FYI: Once this thread reaches page 100, it will be permanently closed.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 02:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Exodus 15:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is what Adam Clarke says about that verse:
Originally Posted By: Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary
Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war - Perhaps it would be better to translate the words, Jehovah is the man or hero of the battle. As we scarcely ever apply the term to any thing but first-rate armed vessels, the change of the translation seems indispensable, though the common rendering is literal enough. Besides, the object of Moses was to show that man had no part in this victory, but that the whole was wrought by the miraculous power of God, and that therefore he alone should have all the glory.


Excellent quotation, Daryl. Adam Clarke had the understanding that it was by the miraculous power of God alone.

Since the days of Abraham Lincoln Seventh-day Adventists have refused to carry arms in war.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
M: Johann, do you agree with Kland that "Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children"? If so, please answer the question - Would it have been a sin to obey that command?

J: Yes, I have not been called to be a hangman/executioner.

Still not clear what you believe.

1. Do you, like Kland, believe "Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children"?

2. Would it have been a sin to obey that command?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 06:29 AM

Originally Posted By: The Bible, Isaiah
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 06:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Exodus 15:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is what Adam Clarke says about that verse:
Originally Posted By: Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary
Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a man of war - Perhaps it would be better to translate the words, Jehovah is the man or hero of the battle. As we scarcely ever apply the term to any thing but first-rate armed vessels, the change of the translation seems indispensable, though the common rendering is literal enough. Besides, the object of Moses was to show that man had no part in this victory, but that the whole was wrought by the miraculous power of God, and that therefore he alone should have all the glory.


Thank you for this post Daryl - - Will others see the truth about God?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 06:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Bible, Isaiah
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


YES - the day of the Lord will be awful! Read back one verse, why did you not quote it??? Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Is this something God is inflicting? NO. This is the result of sin.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 07:53 AM

APL, in post #162918, uses quotes of Mrs. White referring to those who misquote scripture, take it out of context, or put a vague or fanciful interpretation to it. He implies that I have abused scripture by quoting such passages. In rebuttal, let me say the following:

1) I presented no interpretation. I quoted the Bible only.
2) I presented an entire verse, and did not, as Mrs. White was used to say, skip anything or quote just half of it.
3) The fuller context does nothing to alleviate the situation for APL.

Here it is:

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Exodus
Chapter 15

15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
15:2 The LORD [is] my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he [is] my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
15:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
15:5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, [which] consumed them as stubble.
15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, [and] the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
15:10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
15:11 Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?
15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
15:13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people [which] thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided [them] in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
15:14 The people shall hear, [and] be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15:15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
15:16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be [as] still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, [which] thou hast purchased.
15:17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, [in] the place, O LORD, [which] thou hast made for thee to dwell in, [in] the Sanctuary, O Lord, [which] thy hands have established.
15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
15:19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry [land] in the midst of the sea.
15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
15:21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.


God won that war against the Egyptians. (He also won the war in Heaven against Satan and his host.) smile The women and people were singing the praises of the Conqueror in the passage above.

Just two chapters later, God speaks of warring again:

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn [that] the LORD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.


God encourages the people to war against their enemies, knowing that God will help and save them from their enemies.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Numbers
10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.


Perhaps there was a book of "wars of the Lord," or perhaps this following passage refers to the Bible itself.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Numbers
21:14 Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,
21:15 And at the stream of the brooks that goeth down to the dwelling of Ar, and lieth upon the border of Moab.


Furthermore, God asked Moses to lead the people in avenging Him of Midian.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Numbers
31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of [every] tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of [every] tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.


Oh....and remember that verse most of us learned as children that says, "be sure your sin will find you out"? Check out its context!

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Numbers
32:20 And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
32:21 And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
32:22 And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD.
32:23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.


In other words, when God commanded the people to fight, they were guiltless for carrying out His command--but SINNED if they did not!

Once again we see that God's commands represent His will. God says what He means, and He means what He says!

Joshua chapter 8 shows how God blessed as the people smote Ai with the edge of the sword, killing over 12,000 in a day. Many other stories in the Bible show how God blessed and either Himself destroyed Israel's enemies (e.g. Sennacherib's 185,000 in a night), or helped Israel destroy her enemies (e.g. Jericho).

In leading Israel to battle, Joshua was but following God's instructions. Had he not done so, had he not warred against Israel's enemies, it would have been sin for him and them.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war. (Joshua 11:23)


David speaks of how God taught him to fight and war.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Psalms
144:1 [A Psalm] of David. Blessed [be] the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, [and] my fingers to fight:


Isaiah says God will win in war.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Isaiah
42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.


Jesus also told His disciples to buy a sword if they didn't have one.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, Luke
22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
...
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


"For I am not come to send peace, but a sword."

If God were only about peace, why would Jesus say a thing like that? Certainly, God does love peace. But sometimes war is needed before peace can come.

I'm reminded of something said in the Thai national anthem: roughly translated/interpreted, it is this: "Thais love peace, but not to the point of lacking courage to fight." This is what I see our Christian ethic to be. We love peace, but we are not afraid to fight, when such is necessary. If God commands it, we must be prepared to obey-- whether that war involves physical or spiritual realms.

Does God punish? "For whom the Lord loveth, he correcteth." "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten." "The LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." "Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them...."

Selah,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 07:39 PM

Green - take the context of the whole. Jeremiah 7:22-24 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you. 24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Who wanted to fight? The people did. God never commanded them to go up and fight and take the land by warfare. But they would not listen. They went backwards, not forwards. A PP says, it was NEVER God's purpose that they take the land by warfare. But they refused over and over and over.

Christians are never to fight and that includes self-defense. Obviously the Thai anthem is not Christian but pagan, for that is what pagans do.

And HOW do the workers of iniquity receive punishment by God? Read again GC36 and GC589. The truth is clear, and hard for most to accept because they cling to self.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 07:58 PM

GC, nice work. That's what Bible study looks like. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 08:10 PM

APL, you force everything to fit one model - withdraw and permit principle of punishment. The Bible, however, describes several other forms of punishment. You also refuse to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment and war. You have never stated your position plainly.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you force everything to fit one model - withdraw and permit principle of punishment. The Bible, however, describes several other forms of punishment. You also refuse to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment and war. You have never stated your position plainly.
The Bible speaks the model I have said as does EGW. All other aspects are God's permissive will for the blinded people that refuse to understand and walk in His ways. As I have said before and you refuse to see or understand about divorce. God hates divorce. But in God's permissive will, he gave rules for divorce. On divorce, have you read Ezra and Nehemiah recently??? God NEVER wanted the people to fight their way in to the promised land. EGW confirms. You deny. How can we get beyond this impasse? If you believe that God wanted the people to fight their way into the promised land, then you will believe that fighting is the way to go so all fighting is God's desire. So when the people fight, and God gives direction, it becomes God desire and not His permissive will as in divorce.

EGW is so clear on this. Read GC35-GC37 and Read GC589. It is stated plainly and clearly. Yet, you reject it. I cannot convince you and it is not my roll to do so.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa - Abusing Holy Scripture
"For I am not come to send peace, but a sword."

Papacy: Kill 'em!

Followers: But shouldn't we try to convert them?

Papacy: But Jesus said, "For I am not come to send peace, but a sword."
Posted By: asygo

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Johann, do you agree with Kland that "Jesus commanded murdering men, women, and children"? If so, please answer the question - Would it have been a sin to obey that command?


Yes, I have not been called to be a hangman/executioner.

Yes, it would have been sin to obey God's command? While I disagree that God ever commands us to commit sin, it's refreshing to see that there is one person on your side of this theological fence who is willing to state his belief.

I wonder if kland and APL will ever choose between "God commanded people to commit sin" and "God did not command murder." Or maybe they will choose another option like "murder is not always sin." But it looks like the edifice is crumbling, and the only way to slow the crash is to avoid the question. Instead of clarity, I foresee more vehemence.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/05/14 10:21 PM

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

Death - an antagonistic power. Is that God? Nope.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/06/14 06:09 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
So when the people fight, and God gives direction, it becomes God desire and not His permissive will as in divorce.

It sounds like you're saying God commanded capital punishment and combat but it is His permissive will and not His desire. He commanded it because they demanded it. Did I hear you correctly?

Was it a sin to obey His command to execute capital punishment and to wage war?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/06/14 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
So when the people fight, and God gives direction, it becomes God desire and not His permissive will as in divorce.

It sounds like you're saying God commanded capital punishment and combat but it is His permissive will and not His desire. He commanded it because they demanded it. Did I hear you correctly?

Was it a sin to obey His command to execute capital punishment and to wage war?
MM - since your memory seems to be blinded as is your perception of the truth about God, and you are in good company for we all see through a glass darkly, shall I quote for you what I posted months ago for you? I will:

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation.

God did not design that the people should do any fighting. He led them through the wilderness, in order that they might not see war. Yet He knew that if they went the way that they did, the Egyptians would surely pursue them. The children of Israel never had any greater need of fighting than they did when the Egyptians closed in on them by the Red Sea; yet the word then was, "The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace."

It may be said that the reason why the Lord did not wish them to see war was because they were as yet unprepared for fighting; but we must remember that on other occasions when they had many trained warriors, God often delivered them without their striking a blow. When we consider the circumstances of their deliverance from Egypt--how it was all accomplished by the direct power of God, without any human power, their part being only to follow and obey His word--we must be convinced that it was not according to the plan of God that they should do any fighting, even in self-defense.

I am quoting nothing new here. I have quoted it before. We are NOT to fight, kill, or even use the sword in self-defense. Do you not remember any of this?

God's people were NEVER supposed to fight. They were not to have a plurality of wives. Rahab was praised for lying! Do not think it is right to lie!

As EGW writes, So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare... Add to this how it is that God "punishes", God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. And: Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.

Your idea that God causes sickness, disease and death is totally and completely unfounded. God is the restorer and Satan is the destroyer. If God were "a destroyer", then Satan could not be "the destroyer". God's commands when the people rejected the leading of God which was most of the time, were to minimize the damage. But the statutes if they continued in them would lead to their own death and destruction. Those that kills by the sword, will be killed by the sword. David was rewarded for all his killing how? By not being allowed to build God's house. 1 Chronicles 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. That is a striking endorsement for war.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/06/14 10:15 PM

APL, it seems like you just confirmed what I wrote, namely:

Originally Posted By: MM
It sounds like you're saying God commanded capital punishment and combat but it is His permissive will and not His desire. He commanded it because they demanded it.

I hear you saying - Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to. They demanded it so He commanded it.

Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/06/14 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, it seems like you just confirmed what I wrote, namely:

Originally Posted By: MM
It sounds like you're saying God commanded capital punishment and combat but it is His permissive will and not His desire. He commanded it because they demanded it.

I hear you saying - Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to. They demanded it so He commanded it.

Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

IF you teenage daughter wants to have sex, would you give her instruction on how to do it "safely" to minimize the damage? By doing so, are you condoning her choice? Will she suffer if she does not adhere to your advice? This is the same with Israel. God NEVER wanted Israel to fight, something I do note you adamantly deny. EG White tells us they wanted to fight because they were terribly blinded. They had no need to fight. God never wanted divorce. God never wanted polygamy. God however gave instructions to minimize the damage. IF you really want to know what God is like, look at Jesus. Do you believe this? Proverbs 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 04:40 AM

In your example, did the father "command" his teenaged daughter to have sex?

You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 04:55 AM

Caleb believed the Jews were well able to take the Promised Land: But God had promised the land to Israel. "Let us go up at once and possess it," urged Caleb; "for we are well able to overcome it." {PP 388.3}

The Canaanites would be an easy prey for the Jews: The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His protection being removed, they would be an easy prey. {PP 390.1}

Jesus smote the ten unfaithful spies with a plague: The ten unfaithful spies, divinely smitten by the plague, perished before the eyes of all Israel; and in their fate the people read their own doom. {PP 391.3}

Jesus commanded the Jews to go up and take the Promised Land, but they were cowards and did not believe they were able to do it; Jesus commanded them to treat, but they refused to obey: They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

Jesus promised to empower the Jews to take possession of the Promised Land; they refused; He commanded them to retreat; they refused; they fought without divine aid: He did not command them to fight: Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 05:11 AM

The father never told the child to have sex outside of marriage, refusing that, the father gave rules of how to minimize the damage. God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage. God never wanted divorce. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage. God does not want polygamy, etc. And note that the people may or may not follow even these rules. Is the perfect will of God found in the rules to minimize the damage? No. And in fact, following them and not seeing the truth will not lead to life.

Read Ezekiel 20. Excerpts: Ezekiel 20:11-14 And I gave them my statutes, and showed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I worked for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. Ezekiel 20:24-25 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. 25 Why I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
God never commanded the children of Israel to fight.

Never?

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Judges
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

1 Samuel
15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.


You do not speak the truth as it is in the Bible, APL.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:13 AM

Green - - God never commanded the people to fight their way into Canaan, but you I'm sure don't believe that even though EGW confirms. They were NEVER to fight. But they did fight, and God worked with them still. As EGW writes, So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare

Have you read Ezekiel 20? When was the time of Joshua? Yep, right in the time spoken about in Ezekiel 20. Did Joshua follow God in all things?

Are you also blinded?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:17 AM

My Bible says that God gave the command "Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites."

Do you believe God never said this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
My Bible says that God gave the command "Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites."

Do you believe God never said this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You are so narrow in your reading and understanding. You can't integrate what I said above and put it together. Read the whole, don't take an isolated verse. Did God command the people to Fight their way out of Egypt? No. Did God command the people to fight to take the land of Canaan IN THE BEGINNING of the exodus? NO. But did the people fight? Did they walk in all of God's statutes? NO. They went backwards not forwards, to quote scripture. The people picked up arms and they had NO NEED OF ANY WEAPONS. They rejected God's covenant. Right in Exodus 20 they rejected the covenant. Did God then abandon them? NO.

Green - open your eyes. Put it all together.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:34 AM

APL,

Your eyes are wandering. You try to look at the bright side with one eye and ignore the dark side with the other. The fact is, justice and mercy are two sides of the coin of God's love. You do not have the option of just mercy and mercy.

You try to say that the people should not have fought. Very well. But your basic premise is not helped, for that leaves the perfect, loving, Creator God to do the fighting for them. Why would God fight? That is the essence of this entire question.

I, personally, care little for whether God fights or asks us to do so. It is clear that at least one of them was a requirement of God. But you, with wandering eyes, cannot focus on this...you see only what you want to see.

If God did all the fighting for Israel, and if Israel had not fought a bit, your basic picture would not be helped--for you still have the dilemma of a God who is a "man of war," as say the Scriptures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:43 AM

Green - you are not integrating. You are not putting it all together, you are picking only the evidence you want to see. Read again GC35-37 and all around GC589. In fact, God is not the destroyer, and He is not "A" destroyer. Satan in THE destroyer. If God were a destroyer, then Satan would only be "A" destroyer. And when you read the above references, you see how it is that God fights. Just as God did when He SENT the fiery serpents. God cannot protect those that reject Him. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves. The destruction of Jerusalem is evidence of that. Did God destroy Jerusalem? HOW? Read the above references. God destroys no man. This FACT you cannot accept. You have to give God Satan's attributes. Jesus came to dispel that blindness. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 09:49 AM

APL,

It is you who does not put it all together. Satan certainly destroys. He is certainly "the destroyer." But this does not prevent God from destroying when such is necessary.

Of course, we've been round and round on this before, and you refuse to accept the plain scriptures on the subject.

Originally Posted By: God (as quoted in The Holy Bible)
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. ... And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.


There are plenty of Scriptures that tell what God is capable of when the limits of His forbearance are reached. Here is but one example:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.


The problem with APL's theology is that it reduces the severity of sin, and downplays its seriousness. It makes sin tolerable to an Almighty God, a God who is content to simply look on and permit things to happen by themselves without Divine limits or intervention.

If God does not punish, who is He? What kind of toothless laws does He make? If the law is not enforceable, because He loves too much, what kind of love is it? What kind of "loving" parent refuses to punish a wayward child?

"Spare the rod and spoil the child."

Does God spoil us?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 10:10 AM

Actually Green - sin to you is weak. I say from the Bible, Sin causes the death of a sinner. You say, God causes the death of a sinner.

Spare the rod - - do you even understand this? Does a shepard carry a rod? Why, to beat the sheep into submission? Or to lead the sheep in the way they should go? The punishment you are speaking about is total destruction. I'm glad you are not my parent.

The Bible says that God sent the flood just as the Bible says that God sent an evil spirit to Saul or that God sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth. This is a language that is so little understood even by the people who profess to believe present truth.

Like the Jews of old the professed people of God today do not understand God's ways any more than they did.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious God has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded Him in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view." {1SM 355}

Why is this? Because "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing wish sin." {GC 492}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 10:22 AM

With hellish cunning this wily and unprincipled statesman urged Absalom to add the crime of incest to that of rebellion. In the sight of all Israel he was to take to himself his father's concubines, according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne. And Absalom carried out the vile suggestion. Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor. . . . For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them. {PP 738.4}

Look at all the things God "did" to punish sin. How did He do it? By not preventing it. Why did He not prevent it? Because of the rejection of Him by His people. God sent the fiery serpents - HOW, He did not prevent them, because the people had rejected Him, it is a free will issue. We owe or peace and safety to God because of His active prevention of evil. Read again GC35-37, GC589. PP738. Deuteronomy 32.

God is not the destroyer. Satan is.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The Bible says that God sent the flood just as the Bible says that God sent an evil spirit to Saul or that God sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth. This is a language that is so little understood even by the people who profess to believe present truth.


Let's look at the flood a bit more. It is a very worthy example in this discussion, and I just happened to be reading about it this morning in my devotions.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
But at length the patience of God was exhausted. By their obstinate resistance to the reproofs of conscience and the warnings of God's messengers, that generation filled up the measure of their iniquity, and became ripe for destruction. Because mankind had perverted his gifts, God would deface and destroy the things with which he delighted to bless them; he would sweep away the beasts of the field, and the rich vegetation which furnished such an abundant supply of food, and transform the fair earth into one vast scene of desolation and ruin. And guilty man should utterly perish in the overthrow of the world upon which he had set his affections. {BEcho, July 1, 1887 par. 8}



Here's another passage, which I would rather quote in its entirety, that provides a nice depiction of how gently God brought the Flood.




January 3, 1878 Noah's Time and Ours.
By Mrs. E. G. White.


The character of the people before the flood as given by the unerring pen of inspiration is explicit. And God said, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man for that he also is flesh. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Here the faithful historian with an inspired pen draws the portrait of Noah's day, when we are told that the heart of man was deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 1}

The nature of man unrenewed by grace is not changed in our day from what it was in Noah's time. Christ has said a similar state of things would be prior to his second coming as existed before the flood. In the days of Noah men followed the imagination of their own hearts, and the result was unrestrained crime and wickedness. The same state of things will exist in this age of the world. But will not some of the learned, the honored of the world, accept the message of warning in these last days? Will the world as a majority perish in the general impending ruin? How was it in Noah's day? as it was then Christ has said it should be. Of that vast population there was only eight persons who believed the message of Noah and obeyed God's word. In the world today the majority choose the broad road to death because the way of life is too narrow for them to walk in with their dishonesty, avarice, pride and iniquity. Now, as in the days of Noah, the overwhelming majority are opposed to the saving truth and are fascinated with lying fables. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 2}

Many now are convicted, and God's Spirit is striving with them, but they will not heed the invitations of mercy. Men who make high profession of wisdom and of godliness transgress the law of God without compunctions of conscience. One marked feature of Noah's day was the intense worldliness of the inhabitants. They were eating and drinking, planting and building, marrying and giving in marriage, not that these things were of themselves sins, but they were, although lawful in themselves, carried to a high degree of intemperance. The appetite was indulged at the expense of health and reason. This constant indulgence of their sinful desires corrupted them and defiled the earth under them. The same evils intensified exist in our world today. Men are blind to reason and the result of indulging perverted appetite. The world is the god of nine-tenths of professed Christians. The indulgence of appetite is carried to the greatest excess. Tobacco, wine, liquor and opium are added to the list of a feverish stimulating diet. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 3}

Professed followers of Christ are today eating and drinking with the drunken while their names stand in honored church records. The gratification of perverted appetite leads directly to the indulgence of unholy passions. Many feel under no moral obligation to curb the appetite or the base passions. They are slaves to perverted appetite. They are not living for the future life. They are rushing on as did the inhabitants of the world in Noah's day, living for this present existing world regardless that their deeds of the present every day life casts its shadow forward in the future, and the retribution will be in accordance with their works. They are as disobedient today in reference to God's laws as they were in Noah's time. While in the world they will not keep separate from its pollutions but will be of the world, notwithstanding God has expressly forbidden this union with the world. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 4}

As in Noah's day, philosophers and men of science see nature's laws but cannot carry their wisdom higher and see beyond these laws nature's Lawgiver. Wise worldly men seek to practically reason out or theorize in regard to nature without taking the God of nature into the account. Many will resist God's warnings and array themselves against his law because their sinful life cannot harmonize with the pure principles of God's moral government. They consider it too hard work to reform their lives, therefore they endeavor to make the law of God meet their low standard of morals. It was God's purpose in sending Noah to warn the world that the people should see their sins and awaken to a sense of their crimes and great wickedness and be alarmed and fear and repent that God might pardon and save them. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 5}

As the time of Christ's second appearing draws near, the Lord sends his servants with a warning message to the world to prepare for that great event. As the world have been living in transgression of the law of God, in mercy he sends a message of warning to arouse their attention and hold before them the law of God as a mirror into which they can look and discover the defects in their moral character. If they will at once make earnest efforts to remedy these defects, by repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, they will be pardoned through the merits of his blood, for this is the only hope of the transgressor of the law of God. But as in the days of Noah, there is with the majority a total disbelief of the testimony God has in mercy sent to warn the world of her coming destruction. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 6}

When Noah proclaimed the solemn message, yet an hundred and twenty years the judgments of God in a flood of water should destroy the world and its inhabitants, men would not receive it, so it is at the present time. Those who warn the transgressors of law to repent and turn to their allegiance for the Lawgiver is coming to punish the disobedient, will plead and entreat and warn the majority in vain. Peter describes the attitude of the world in reference to the last message: "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished; but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 7}

The men of Noah's time, in their philosophy and worldly wisdom, thought God could not destroy the world with a flood, for the waters of the ocean could not be sufficient for this. But God made the philosophy and science of men foolishness when the time had fully come to execute his word. The inspired pen describes the earth as standing out of the water and in the water. God had his weapons concealed in the bowels of the earth to compass her destruction. And when the great men and the wise men had reasoned before the world of the impossibility of its destruction by water, and the fears of the people were quieted, and all regarded Noah's prophecy as the veriest delusion, and looked upon Noah as a crazy fanatic, God's time had come. He hid Noah and his family in the ark, and the rain began to descend, slowly at first; the jeers and scoffings did not cease for a time, but soon the waters from heaven united with the waters of the great deep; the waters under the earth burst through the earth's surface, and the windows of heaven were opened, and man with all his philosophy and so-called science, finds that he had not been able in his worldly wisdom to comprehend God. He found too late that his wisdom was foolishness; that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature. The hand of omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish his purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth his weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. But let us all bear in mind that those who perished in that awful judgment had an offer of escape. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 8}

The faithful Noah had spoken to them the words of God, assuring them if they would repent of their sins and believe the testimony of warning they might find a shelter in the ark and be saved from the destructive storm that was soon coming. As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth which he will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish his purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God. The voice of warning is now being heard inviting the people to escape and find refuge, not in the ark but in Jesus Christ. How will the warning be treated? Christ tells us just as it was received in the days of Noah. Thousands will deride the message of mercy and salvation, and turn aside, one to his merchandise, another to his farm, and give little or no attention to these things. They will be occupied with eating, drinking, and dressing, planting and building as in the days of Noah, as though no sound of alarm had ever saluted their ears. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 9}

The same reasoning will be heard today from worldly-wise men, from the unfaithful watchmen in the pulpits, "My Lord delayeth his coming, all things remain as they were from the beginning. You have no need to be alarmed, there is to be a thousand years of temporal millennium before Christ will come. All the world will be converted. Peace, peace; you should pay no regard to these fanatics, who are only alarmists." The world generally will despise prophecy and abuse those who speak to them the words of God, rebuking their sins and calling them to repentance. Timothy writes: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. What a picture is here drawn by the apostle in regard to the days, just prior to the coming of the Son of man." The millennial glory that is predicted by the false shepherds of today does not harmonize with the words of the inspired apostle. The question is asked, When the Son of man cometh shall he find faith on the earth? {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 10}

The deceived shepherds, deceiving their flocks in their turn, are the ones whose voices are heard prophesying the conversion of the world crying peace, and safety. The inspired apostle assures us we may look for wickedness to be continually increasing as the end approaches. The description given by Timothy of the sins to be found among those who have a form of godliness is sufficient to place the students of the Bible on their guard that they be not deceived in regard to the true state of things in our world by the syren songs of the sleepy shepherds crying peace and safety when destruction is just ready to burst upon the world. While Satan is working to quiet the fears and consciences of men, he is making his last master stroke to retain his power over a world which he sees is about to pass from his grasp--He has come down in great power working with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish. His lying wonders will deceive many. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 11}

Philosophers and men of science will endeavor by their reasoning to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire. They will plead that it is inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the maker and controller of nature, can use the works of his own hands to serve his purpose. Those who would be loyal to the God of heaven will not allow that interpretation of prophecy which will do away the force of the lesson God designed the prophecy should convey. As the contemporaries of Noah laughed to scorn that which they termed fear and superstition in the preacher of righteousness, so will the solemn messages of warning be ridiculed in our day. {ST, January 3, 1878 par. 12}




More in the next post...

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 10:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
This rainbow was to evidence the fact to all generations that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood, because of their great wickedness. It was his design that as the children of after generations should see the bow in the cloud, and should inquire the reason of this glorious arch that spanned the heavens, that their parents could explain to them the destruction of the old world by a flood, because the people gave themselves up to all manner of wickedness, and that the hands of the Most High had bended the bow, and placed it in the clouds, as a token that he would never bring again a flood of waters on the earth. This symbol in the clouds was to confirm the belief of all, and establish their confidence in God; for it was a token of divine mercy and goodness to man; that although God had been provoked to destroy the earth by the flood, yet his mercy still encompasseth the earth.


Mrs. White tells us that the lesson of the rainbow is to be taught from parents to children--that God destroyed the world by flood, but that God will not again use a flood to destroy the world. APL, do you teach this to your children?


Notice Who is said to destroy in the quote in the post above? The Lawgiver.

Who is the Lawgiver?

According to APL, God can never destroy. Therefore, according to APL, God is not the Lawgiver. Then who is, APL? Please tell us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 01:24 PM

What is the sense in all of this? By this constant posting of conflicting quotations aren´t you weakening the importance of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

Why not rather making an attempt at understanding the significance of such conflicting statements?

Why does Ellen White contradict herself so much in the Great Controversy? Is that just to make it possible for you to be fighting over the issue and shooting with your select quotations?

There must be a purpose in what Ellen White is writing. Why not discover it?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 01:39 PM

Good point, Johann.

The fact is, Ellen White does not contradict herself in these statements. It is the interpretation of what she wrote which is conflicting.

APL has yet to see the light on that, which is why there are so many statement which contradict his view.

His oft-quoted statement, almost his sole stand-by, that "God destroys no man," is a misinterpretation. Ellen White meant that God is not the one who forces man to sin, resulting in his eventual destruction. The man destroys his character, and perhaps the body can be destroyed by man, but God destroys his soul.

Jesus Himself told us to "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (See Matthew 10:28.)

APL has an inability to distinguish between meanings when an English word can be used in more than one context/sense. Ellen White is using "destroy" in a different sense in his favorite quotation than when she uses it elsewhere. Perhaps, if English had had more vocabulary, she would not have been required to do this, and people like APL would have an easier time of understanding the truth. But human language is imperfect. Nevertheless, to the open and educated mind, there is no reasonable difficulty on this issue. The statements, taken together, provide a full and balanced picture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 02:28 PM

I am slowly getting to see where one of the main difficulties lies, Green.

You don't see it yet. Pray for an understanding heart.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: In your example, did the father "command" his teenaged daughter to have sex?

A: The father never told the child to have sex outside of marriage, refusing that, the father gave rules of how to minimize the damage.

What is the purpose of your illustration? It doesn't address the point. Your father did not "command" his daughter to have sex. On the other hand, Jesus did indeed "command" the Hebrews to "utterly" kill every man, woman, and child.

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

A: God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage.

What "rules" are you referring to? Are you referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child?

Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it?

Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 07:01 PM

Is there soul that is separate from the whole? NO. Who is it that destroys the body and soul in hell? God is not "the" or "a" destroyer in active sense. He only destroys be letting sinners have their own choice. "God destroys no man" So who is it that destroys the body and soul in hell? "Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." You indeed have no answer for the quotes I keep bringing forward and charge your blindness on others. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: In your example, did the father "command" his teenaged daughter to have sex?

A: The father never told the child to have sex outside of marriage, refusing that, the father gave rules of how to minimize the damage.

What is the purpose of your illustration? It doesn't address the point. Your father did not "command" his daughter to have sex. On the other hand, Jesus did indeed "command" the Hebrews to "utterly" kill every man, woman, and child.
Why does it seem I keep having to post this but it doesn't do any good? But then APL probably has had the same feeling from time to time, too. An understatement, no?



Ex 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Le 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

De 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Commands, right?

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Not His will, right?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:06 PM

While I do not approve the Doonesbury comics nor politics nor their messages in general, here's one that does seem relevant to the issue at hand. Check out the 6th panel. Is it arguing against the same concept some here promote of their view about God?

http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2014/02/16#.UxnzxPFL0WP
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/07/14 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
What is the purpose of your illustration? It doesn't address the point. Your father did not "command" his daughter to have sex. On the other hand, Jesus did indeed "command" the Hebrews to "utterly" kill every man, woman, and child.
Sigh... Go back to first principles. God never wanted them to fight. NEVER. They did not listen or obey, they did fight. If they were not going to follow God which they did not, then they would need to do horrible things in order to survive for a time. Did all their war bring them peace? NO. The "commands" you keep quoting are the same as the father giving his daughter instructions in how to minimize the damage. NOTE - it does not eliminate the damage. The first principles are "NO WAR". Love your enemies. Do good to them. Do not repay evil with evil. Turn the other cheek. Christ revealed the truth. Christ is truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 12:54 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
God never wanted them to fight.

So you say. But the Bible does not say so. You try to twist EGW to say so. But she does not.

Originally Posted By: APL
The "commands" you keep quoting are the same as the father giving his daughter instructions in how to minimize the damage.

Jesus "commanded" them to "utterly" kill and destroy every man, woman, and child. Minimal damage? Hardly! It was absolute destruction.

Originally Posted By: APL
Love your enemies. Do good to them. Do not repay evil with evil. Turn the other cheek.

Amen. But when Jesus commands utterly killing and destroying every man, woman, and child it best to obey. King Saul found out the hard way disobeying the command to kill everyone is a sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 12:57 AM

I am reposting this because you did not address it:

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

A: God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage.

What "rules" are you referring to? Are you referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child?

Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it?

Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I am reposting this because you did not address it:

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

A: God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage.

What "rules" are you referring to? Are you referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child?

Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it?

Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

I have repeatedly laid out the principles. We are not to fight - for any reason. No war, no fighting, period. You reject that. Thus, you see any command to kill as perfect and just and God's perfect will. Did the war of the Jews ever bring a lasting peace? Nope. God did not want them to fight. Did the Jews follow God? NO. I'll bet you believe they did. Unfortunately scripture does not support that view. Read Ezekiel 20 and Jeremiah 7. They went backwards not forwards. Can you say AMEN? (did not think so)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 04:18 AM

APL, your response did not answer the questions. Please answer the questions.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 04:42 AM

Sigh...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 04:47 AM

There is no way you can expect anyone to extrapolate answers to the questions based on your response.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 05:36 AM

How do you all understand this EGW quote, especially the underlined portion?
Quote:
The Flood Comes

Notwithstanding the solemn exhibition they [the antediluvians] had witnessed of God's power—of the unnatural occurrence of the beasts’ leaving the forests and fields, and going into the ark, and the angel of God clothed with brightness, and terrible in majesty, descending from heaven and closing the door; yet they hardened their hearts, and continued to revel and sport over the signal manifestations of divine power. But upon the eighth day the heavens gathered blackness. . . . The rain descended from the clouds above them. This was something they had never witnessed. . . . The storm increased in violence until water seemed to come from heaven like mighty cataracts. . . . Jets of water would burst up from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and then they would bury themselves deep in the earth. . . . {TA 70.1}

The violence of the storm increased, and there were mingled with the warring of the elements the wailings of the people who had despised the authority of God. Trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. And even Satan himself, who was compelled to be amid the warring elements, feared for his own existence. . . . {TA 70.2}

Angels that excel in strength guided the ark and preserved it from harm. Every moment during that frightful storm of forty days and forty nights the preservation of the ark was a miracle of almighty power.—1SP 73, 75. {TA 70.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
There is no way you can expect anyone to extrapolate answers to the questions based on your response.
What is clear to me is that you can't extrapolate. You don't understand the metaphors I've presented. I can't make you understand.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: daryl
How do you all understand this EGW quote, especially the underlined portion?
Best to read this quote in a better setting then the compilation, TA. Read chapter 7 in Patriarchs and Prophets. Read each sentence slowly and carefully. This is a powerful chapter.

As for Satan fearing for his life, this tells me that Satan is "real" and not immortal.

And note that Angels that excel in strength were sent to preserve the Ark. Question - preserve the Ark from what God is doing to the earth by direct action? Nope.

In the flood, EGW writes that Mercy had ended for the. What is mercy? Mercy is God overruling Satan's work, see {DA 471.4}

And put this with {GC 36.1}, the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner.

Did God "cause" the flood? God withdrew His mercy, and yes, the world fell apart. Satan experienced the cause and effect of transgression of God's law. And it scared him greatly, so that he feared for his own life.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 12:54 PM

Satan well knows that his immortality will be revoked, and that he will be punished, if he does not win the war. Until then, he will fight to the bitter end. Look how he will try to overcome the New Jerusalem after the millennium. If he were to prevail, his life would be preserved. Though he sees it as a lost cause, he will try anyhow, if so be he can extend his life into perpetuity.

During the Flood, with God in control of the elements, Satan was very much "out of control." He had no power to stay the forces of nature. The quotation further tells me that even amidst the flood, Satan was not permitted to leave the earth. Had he been able to, say, fly to the moon during the flood, what fears would he have had? It's either this, or Satan would have had a fear for his own life in the sense of anticipation of the end, and thinking that this must be it. Satan does not have the ability to know the future as God does. The Bible, with its predictions of many future events, was not then written. Satan did not yet know when his end was to be scheduled.

But, he does now. That is why he knows he has but a short time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

A: God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage.

M: What "rules" are you referring to? Are you referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child? Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

A: I have repeatedly laid out the principles. We are not to fight - for any reason. No war, no fighting, period. You reject that. Thus, you see any command to kill as perfect and just and God's perfect will. Did the war of the Jews ever bring a lasting peace? Nope. God did not want them to fight. Did the Jews follow God? NO. I'll bet you believe they did. Unfortunately scripture does not support that view. Read Ezekiel 20 and Jeremiah 7. They went backwards not forwards.

M: There is no way you can expect anyone to extrapolate answers to the questions based on your response.

A: What is clear to me is that you can't extrapolate. You don't understand the metaphors I've presented. I can't make you understand.

It is not fair or reasonable of you to expect me to extrapolate your answers to the questions. When people study together it is normal for them to clearly, plainly state their position and to answer questions directly. You have not done that. Thus, this thread, and others like it, go on and on without conclusion. Nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer the way I think you believe:

1. "God gave rules to minimize the damage." What rules are you referring to? You referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child.

2. Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Yes, of course, otherwise He would have never commanded it.

3. Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, the law forbids killing and murder.

4. Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, killing and murdering are sins.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/08/14 08:05 PM

The following proves Ellen White did not say the Jews were not initially supposed to fight their way into the Promised Land:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Caleb believed the Jews were well able to take the Promised Land: But God had promised the land to Israel. "Let us go up at once and possess it," urged Caleb; "for we are well able to overcome it." {PP 388.3}

The Canaanites would be an easy prey for the Jews: The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His protection being removed, they would be an easy prey. {PP 390.1}

Jesus smote the ten unfaithful spies with a plague: The ten unfaithful spies, divinely smitten by the plague, perished before the eyes of all Israel; and in their fate the people read their own doom. {PP 391.3}

Jesus commanded the Jews to go up and take the Promised Land, but they were cowards and did not believe they were able to do it; Jesus commanded them to treat, but they refused to obey: They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

Jesus promised to empower the Jews to take possession of the Promised Land; they refused; He commanded them to retreat; they refused; they fought without divine aid: He did not command them to fight: Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: mm
The following proves Ellen White did not say the Jews were not initially supposed to fight their way into the Promised Land:
"prove"?? I don't think so!
Originally Posted By: mm
Caleb believed the Jews were well able to take the Promised Land: But God had promised the land to Israel. "Let us go up at once and possess it," urged Caleb; "for we are well able to overcome it." {PP 388.3}
The people were well able to overcome the Egyptians. Did they need to fight? Nope.
Originally Posted By: mm
The Canaanites would be an easy prey for the Jews: The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His protection being removed, they would be an easy prey. {PP 390.1}
The Egyptians were easy prey. No need to fight.
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus smote the ten unfaithful spies with a plague: The ten unfaithful spies, divinely smitten by the plague, perished before the eyes of all Israel; and in their fate the people read their own doom. {PP 391.3}
Yep. Read {GC 389.2} and the Story of Job what happens when God removes His mercy.
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus commanded the Jews to go up and take the Promised Land, but they were cowards and did not believe they were able to do it; Jesus commanded them to treat, but they refused to obey: They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}
YES - they were to go up and TAKE the land. It was a gift to them, all they needed to do was take it. Just as when the crossed the Red Sea or later the Jordan, all they needed do to was to move forward. And note - EGW never intended them to take the land by warfare! {PP 392.3} But they were rebellious and did not take the land. Then in response to their reaction to the pronounced sentence, they then did go and fight and without God.
Originally Posted By: mm
{PP 392.3} quoted
God gave divine aid leaving Egypt. In the command to take the land, God did not require warfare. Again, read {392.3}.

So thank you for your quotes. The confirm that God did not command them to go and fight to take the land. The land was given to them as a gift. All they needed to do was to go up and take it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: mm
It is not fair or reasonable of you to expect me to extrapolate your answers to the questions. When people study together it is normal for them to clearly, plainly state their position and to answer questions directly.
It is hard to speak to prejudiced crowds. I think the parable of the father and his daughter above lays out my position well.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

A: YES - they were to go up and TAKE the land. It was a gift to them, all they needed to do was take it.

The biblical expression "go up" very obviously means take by force of arms in battle. Note all the uses of the expression in the following passages:

Numbers
13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they [are] stronger than we.
14:40 And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up into the top of the mountain, saying, Lo, we [be here], and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised: for we have sinned.
14:41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD? but it shall not prosper.
14:42 Go not up, for the LORD [is] not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.

Deuteronomy
1:21 Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up [and] possess [it], as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.
1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:
1:41 Then ye answered and said unto me, We have sinned against the LORD, we will go up and fight, according to all that the LORD our God commanded us. And when ye had girded on every man his weapons of war, ye were ready to go up into the hill.
9:23 Likewise when the LORD sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.

Joshua
7:2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which [is] beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
7:3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; [and] make not all the people to labour thither; for they [are but] few.
8:3 So Joshua arose, and all the people of war, to go up against Ai: and Joshua chose out thirty thousand mighty men of valour, and sent them away by night.
22:12 And when the children of Israel heard [of it], the whole congregation of the children of Israel gathered themselves together at Shiloh, to go up to war against them.
22:33 And the thing pleased the children of Israel; and the children of Israel blessed God, and did not intend to go up against them in battle, to destroy the land wherein the children of Reuben and Gad dwelt.

Judges
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
1. "God gave rules to minimize the damage." What rules are you referring to? You referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child.

2. Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Yes, of course, otherwise He would have never commanded it.

3. Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, the law forbids killing and murder.

4. Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, killing and murdering are sins.

A: It is hard to speak to prejudiced crowds. I think the parable of the father and his daughter above lays out my position well.

I am certain the answers above accurately reflect your beliefs. Your fornication illustration makes it clear you believe the "rules" refer to Jesus' laws and commands to kill criminals and combatants. Just as fornication is a violation of the law, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a violation of the law. And, just as fornication is a sin, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a sin.

In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 07:01 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
The biblical expression "go up" very obviously means take by force of arms in battle. Note all the uses of the expression in the following passages:

It is obvious if that is the paradigm you want to believe it. It is very interesting that you completely negate EGW's interpretation. You quote Deuteronomy 1:41 Then ye answered and said unto me, We have sinned against the LORD, we will go up and fight, according to all that the LORD our God commanded us. And when ye had girded on every man his weapons of war, ye were ready to go up into the hill. What did EGW say about this very quotation? So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3} MM - is was NOT His [God's] purpose that they should gain the land by warfare. What part of "not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare" is hard to understand? They were NEVER supposed to fight.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/09/14 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
1. "God gave rules to minimize the damage." What rules are you referring to?

2. Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it?

3. Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

4. Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

A: It is hard to speak to prejudiced crowds. I think the parable of the father and his daughter above lays out my position well.

I am certain the answers above accurately reflect your beliefs. Your fornication illustration makes it clear you believe the "rules" refer to Jesus' laws and commands to kill criminals and combatants. Just as fornication is a violation of the law, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a violation of the law. And, just as fornication is a sin, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a sin.

In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

I will again post what I have posted before:
"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation.

A problem you have in understanding this MM is that you focus on behavior; these are "sins" little "s". Our behavior are symptoms of the disease we all have. You never cure a disease by only treating the symptoms. What we want to cure is SIN. "The Law" points out Sin, but it can't cure it, it has no remedy. You can point out "sin" all you want, but that does not cure the Sin. Salvation is healing, healing of the disease Sin.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses. Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for you are my praise.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 07:40 AM

As I said, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. The truth is, however, He commanded them to kill criminals and combatants. They did not demand it. He commanded it. They obeyed His command. In doing so, they did not sin.

You are twisting Ellen White's comment. Jesus did not command them to go and up fight in the sense He commanded them to retreat. You are trying to force it to mean something it obviously does not.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 08:14 AM

MM - I see no way you get your interpretation of EGW's statement. None. Not there. Quoting the whole paragraph:
God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the time of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

The people were NEVER to fight. You not seeing that put you and me at an impasse. Killing is wrong. Divorce is wrong. These are sins, little "s". They are symptoms. You don't cure the disease by treating the symptoms alone. You are fixated on the behavior and true this is important, but it is not the whole picture. You can't know a person by looking at behavior alone. To be a murderer does not require killing someone. If you hate your brother, you are a murderer! Are you a murderer? Your incessant attempt to pigeon hole me will never fly because all you are looking it the outward behavior. Forget it. That is not where the money is. To be like Jesus, as revealed in His life here on earth is where the truth lies. Look to Jesus. If you really want to know God, you have to look at the best evidence given, and that is Jesus. (Hebrews 1:1-3)

War is grand and glorious, right? It is a wonderful thing, right? A sanctifying experience, bring us close to God, right? No, it is a hardening, demoralizing ordeal. God never wanted Israel to fight. Never. Question - Why was David not permitted to build the temple?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
Quote:
As I said, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
Unless you have changed your definition of murder, killing those who have not killed others, you therefore, believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Killing is wrong. Divorce is wrong. These are sins, little "s".

Which is why you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. Your idea - not mine. You believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it. Your idea - not mine.

Originally Posted By: APL
Why was David not permitted to build the temple?

The reason why David was not to build the temple was declared: "Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build a house unto My name. . . . Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies: . . . his name shall be Solomon [peaceable], and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name." 1 Chronicles 22:8-10. {PP 712.2}

Who commanded King David to kill enemy combatants? Jesus!

Quote:
2 Samuel
5:25 And David did so, as the LORD had commanded him; and smote the Philistines from Geba until thou come to Gazer.

King David obeyed the command to kill enemy combatants. He did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord. Jesus wasn't punishing King David when He forbade him to build the temple.

Quote:
1 Kings
15:5 Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

The first thing Solomon did as King was to kill his enemies.

Quote:
1 Kings
2:25 And king Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he fell upon {Adonijah} that he died.
2:34 So Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up, and fell upon {Joab}, and slew him: and he was buried in his own house in the wilderness.
2:46 So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; which went out, and fell upon {Shimei}, that he died. And the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon.

He killed all these men before his famous dream and before he built the temple. In spite of the blood on his hands, Jesus commanded King Solomon to build the temple.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. . . . As I said, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

K: Unless you have changed your definition of murder, killing those who have not killed others, you therefore, believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder.

The difference between murder and obeying Jesus' command to kill is explained in the Bible. It is not murder when obeying Jesus' command to kill. Jesus commanded capital punishment. Executing capital punishment is not murder. Jesus commanded war. Killing enemy combatants in battle is not murder.

It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to murder. It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Killing is wrong. Divorce is wrong. These are sins, little "s".

Which is why you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. Your idea - not mine. You believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it. Your idea - not mine.

Originally Posted By: APL
Why was David not permitted to build the temple?

The reason why David was not to build the temple was declared: "Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build a house unto My name. . . . Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies: . . . his name shall be Solomon [peaceable], and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name." 1 Chronicles 22:8-10. {PP 712.2}

Who commanded King David to kill enemy combatants? Jesus!

Quote:
2 Samuel
5:25 And David did so, as the LORD had commanded him; and smote the Philistines from Geba until thou come to Gazer.

King David obeyed the command to kill enemy combatants. He did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord.

Quote:
1 Kings
15:5 Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

The first thing Solomon did as King was to kill his enemies.

Quote:
1 Kings
2:25 And king Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he fell upon {Adonijah} that he died.
2:34 So Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up, and fell upon {Joab}, and slew him: and he was buried in his own house in the wilderness.
2:46 So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; which went out, and fell upon {Shimei}, that he died. And the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon.

He killed all these men before his famous prayer and before he built the temple.


The fact that there was a king at all was a rejection of God. Is sure solved Israel's problems, right? Nope. We have no need to fight if we put our faith in God, not even in self-defense. If you can't see what God's real desire was for Israel, how can you understand all the bloodshed that followed. And for all that bloodshed, did Israel fulfill God's purpose? NO.

Jesus said, "If you have seem me, you have seen the Father", John 14:9
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 09:08 PM

APL, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. I disagree. I believe it was right of them to obey Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong of them to disobey.

When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created mankind they knew that they would have to implement the plan of salvation and that they would have to fight and win the great controversy. They could have decided not to create mankind. Instead, they chose to create mankind and deal with the great controversy. Jesus knew in advance He would command the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." Jesus does not say King David sinned because he obeyed Jesus' commands to kill criminals and enemy combatants.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus said, "If you have seem me, you have seen the Father", John 14:9

It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to kill criminals and enemy combatants.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus said, "If you have seem me, you have seen the Father", John 14:9

It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to kill criminals and enemy combatants.

It was the Jews that rejected God and picked up the sword.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 09:54 PM

Doesn't change or excuse the fact Jesus commanded them to kill criminals and combatants. Doesn't change the fact you believe Jesus commanded them to sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/10/14 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: MM
I believe it was right of them to obey Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong of them to disobey.


IF - IF - the people obeyed in the first place, they would have been in Canaan shortly after leaving Egypt and would not have needed to use the sword at all. It was not God's purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: MM
When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created mankind they knew that they would have to implement the plan of salvation and that they would have to fight and win the great controversy. They could have decided not to create mankind. Instead, they chose to create mankind and deal with the great controversy. Jesus knew in advance He would command the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

The great controversy - I wonder what you think the controversy is about, hard for me to tell! God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth. Blink - all done. As EGW says in the book, The Desire of Ages. Why did God not do this? Sure would have saved a lot of problems, right? Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} God's principles are not of this order! The use of force is contrary to God. We see this in His dealings with the Egyptians. (Yes, we do!) And we would have seen it if the people would have obeyed God and taken the land which was given to them as a gift. But they refused. They rebelled. They went backwards not forwards. They over and over and over and over rejected God's methods. WHY do WE today reject God's methods? We have no excuse!!!

Originally Posted By: MM
I believe it was right of them to obey Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants. It would have been wrong of them to disobey.


IF - IF - the people obeyed in the first place, they would have been in Canaan shortly after leaving Egypt and would not have needed to use the sword at all. It was not God's purpose that they should gain the land by warfare.

Originally Posted By: MM
When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created mankind they knew that they would have to implement the plan of salvation and that they would have to fight and win the great controversy. They could have decided not to create mankind. Instead, they chose to create mankind and deal with the great controversy. Jesus knew in advance He would command the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.

The great controversy - I wonder what you think the controversy is about, hard for me to tell! God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth. Blink - all done. As EGW says in the book, The Desire of Ages. Why did God not do this? Sure would have saved a lot of problems, right? Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} God's principles are not of this order! The use of force is contrary to God. We see this in His dealings with the Egyptians. (Yes, we do!) And we would have seen it if the people would have obeyed God and taken the land which was given to them as a gift. But they refused. They rebelled. They went backwards not forwards. They over and over and over and over rejected God's methods. WHY do WE today reject God's methods? We have no excuse!!!

Originally Posted By: mm
"Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." Jesus does not say King David sinned because he obeyed Jesus' commands to kill criminals and enemy combatants.
Do you know any of the history of this verse, how it reads in other manuscripts? Regardless, what did Jesus do? Consider the woman taken in adultery, in the very act! Did Jesus condemn her? Nope. John 3:18-21 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 05:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
M: In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin. . . . As I said, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

K: Unless you have changed your definition of murder, killing those who have not killed others, you therefore, believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder.

The difference between murder and obeying Jesus' command to kill is explained in the Bible. It is not murder when obeying Jesus' command to kill. Jesus commanded capital punishment. Executing capital punishment is not murder. Jesus commanded war. Killing enemy combatants in battle is not murder.

It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to murder. It is you, not I, who believes Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.
MM, you seem to be straddling the fence, or jumping from one side to another.

You say one place where by your sheer definition it is not sin to obey whatever Jesus commands. Then you say it would be sin. But yet you say, obeying the command to kill means of itself that it is not murder. Why can't you just say that it is not sin following Jesus' command to murder?

What you mean is that you really don't have a definition of murder. You say it is explained in the Bible, but you demonstrate you do not know where at nor what the difference is.

Which is what I've said at the beginning. You don't know the difference between right and wrong, you make no distinction. So why do you object to saying that you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to murder? All you need to say is murder is not wrong if Jesus tells you to do it. Like the papacy.

I figured you'd add another. Killing, murder, capital punishment, and now war? Really?

Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does. And you think that's not wrong? But oh, you say, it's war and "enemy combatants". A child is an "enemy combatant"? Really?


But then again, if you don't have a difference between murder and killing, then how could you possibly say that saying Jesus commanded the Jews to murder would be a sin?

You make no sense. You, confused by your own internal thoughts, contradict yourself.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 07:27 PM

And the devil wins in both sides of the argument that has been on the top of the list here for a long, long time.

For indeed God commanded the killing of commandment breakers and certain heathen in the OT dispensation.

And Christians, Muslims and other religions have thought, some still think and soon most will think that God has given them the command to carry on in this type of religious cleansing in the NT dispensation.

It's been the dreadful state of things in the dark ages, it's now happening in some other lands and will soon happen in our fair lands -- people will think they are obeying God's command in persecuting and killing those who refuse to follow the state proclaimed religion.


It would be far wiser to just leave this in the loving/righteous hands of our heavenly High Priest Who died to save a perishing world and give eternal life to all Who would come to Him and it is He alone that has the authority to declare who will live for eternity and who will not.


Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 08:14 PM

APL, Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You avoid this truth at all cost.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Kland
You say one place where by your sheer definition it is not sin to obey whatever Jesus commands.

I do not believe it is a sin to obey Jesus.

1. Moses did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

2. Joshua did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

3. Samuel did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

4. King David did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

5. King Solomon did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Then you say it would be sin.

I have never said it is a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
But yet you say, obeying the command to kill means of itself that it is not murder.

It is never a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Why can't you just say that it is not sin following Jesus' command to murder?

Saying so wouldn't make it so. The Bible makes a distinction between obeying Jesus and murder:

Quote:
Numbers
35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

You can have your own opinions but you cannot have not your own facts. The Bible is clear. "The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer . . . he shall not be guilty of blood"! The people who executed capital punishment were not guilty of blood or guilty of murder. "The murderer shall surely be put to death."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
And the devil wins in both sides of the argument that has been on the top of the list here for a long, long time.

For indeed God commanded the killing of commandment breakers and certain heathen in the OT dispensation.

And Christians, Muslims and other religions have thought, some still think and soon most will think that God has given them the command to carry on in this type of religious cleansing in the NT dispensation.

It's been the dreadful state of things in the dark ages, it's now happening in some other lands and will soon happen in our fair lands -- people will think they are obeying God's command in persecuting and killing those who refuse to follow the state proclaimed religion.


It would be far wiser to just leave this in the loving/righteous hands of our heavenly High Priest Who died to save a perishing world and give eternal life to all Who would come to Him and it is He alone that has the authority to declare who will live for eternity and who will not.

God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. If you really want to know what God is like, look at Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/11/14 09:29 PM

Jesus commanded the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/12/14 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus commanded the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.


God had His reasons for doing what He did back then, but we know that since the cross we no longer live in a theocratic society, we live under the kingdom of grace in which the light from the cross defines the results of sin and the assurance of salvation.

If you really want to know where all this may be leading you just go to the Ezekiel 9 thread and you will see where this is leading.

(Though a lot of people can't see beyond the exchange of quotes as to what the agenda really is)

We are warned--

Quote:
"The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463


Ezekiel nine is being used by several groups of "offshoots" to declare nearly all Adventists must be killed before the message goes out to the world -- before the Sunday laws even come.

All it will take is for some self proclaimed prophet who has a zealous following to declare God commanded him to do it so the "last work can move forward" and ......
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/12/14 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
You say one place where by your sheer definition it is not sin to obey whatever Jesus commands.

I do not believe it is a sin to obey Jesus.

1. Moses did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

2. Joshua did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

3. Samuel did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

4. King David did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

5. King Solomon did not sin when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill criminals and combatants.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Then you say it would be sin.

I have never said it is a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
But yet you say, obeying the command to kill means of itself that it is not murder.

It is never a sin to obey Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Kland
Why can't you just say that it is not sin following Jesus' command to murder?

Saying so wouldn't make it so.

But you just got through saying it is never a sin to obey Jesus!

Quote:
The Bible makes a distinction between obeying Jesus and murder:
So why don't you tell us?

Quote:
Quote:
Numbers
35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

You can have your own opinions but you cannot have not your own facts. The Bible is clear. "The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer . . . he shall not be guilty of blood"! The people who executed capital punishment were not guilty of blood or guilty of murder. "The murderer shall surely be put to death."
What you have said, is a murderer is someone who has not killed someone. And killing someone who has killed someone is perfectly fine thing to do.

You say Jesus tells people to kill those who have not killed someone. Therefore, according to your very own definition, you are saying Jesus tells people to murder and is a murderer.


Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does. And you think that's not wrong? But oh, you say, it's war and "enemy combatants". A child is an "enemy combatant"? Really?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/12/14 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus commanded the Jews to kill criminals and combatants.


God had His reasons for doing what He did back then, but we know that since the cross we no longer live in a theocratic society, we live under the kingdom of grace in which the light from the cross defines the results of sin and the assurance of salvation.
Yes, and Tom, APL and others have pointed them out. But what do you think of those who think it was God's ideal will for people to murder each other in the Old Testament? What about those who think God intentionally and directly causes pain, death, suffering, and illness today? What about those who think God will murder people in the future, those who disagree with Him?

This is what will lead them to either declare or actually believe God called them to murder others who don't follow how they interpret truth. They are supporting their god, a god of death, a god of revenge and pain. And they are only supporting their god by taking similar actions against those who disagree with them. That's how the Inquisition came about. People who believed it God by that way, and therefore permitted the ruling power to do it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/13/14 08:05 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
What you have said, is a murderer is someone who has not killed someone.

You say I said so. But the truth is clear. Your argument is with the Word of God. It was Jesus who commanded capital punishment and war.

Originally Posted By: kland
Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does.

Again, your argument is with Jesus. It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to utterly kill every man, woman, and child.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/13/14 08:29 AM

God had promised to give them the land, and it could not be obtained except as a gift. The mightiest army that the world has ever seen, armed with the most approved weapons of war, could not take it; while a few unarmed men, strong in faith and giving glory to God, could have possessed it with ease. The force that takes the kingdom of heaven is not the force of arms.

The germ in the seed grows by the unfolding of the life-principle which God has implanted. Its development depends upon no human power. So it is with the kingdom of Christ. It is a new creation. Its principles of development are the opposite of those that rule the kingdoms of this world. Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit represents worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey; but Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In His plan of government there is no employment of brute force to compel the conscience. The Jews looked for the kingdom of God to be established in the same way as the kingdoms of the world. To promote righteousness they resorted to external measures. They devised methods and plans. But Christ implants a principle. By implanting truth and righteousness, He counterworks error and sin. {COL 77.1}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/13/14 09:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You avoid this truth at all cost.


What is your purpose in trying to change his mind?

I doubt he will change his mind and having this KILLING thread at the top of the forum for months on end is rather depressing.

Do you want our corrupt justice systems to reactivate this?

They will probably kill all the wrong people and set the criminals free.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/13/14 10:19 PM

Dedication, it sounds like you would like to see this thread ended.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/13/14 10:27 PM

APL, you are avoiding the point - Does God punish? You say, Yes, He does punish by withdrawing His restraining hand and permitting nature, evil men, and evil angels the freedom to cause death and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes and works to enforce.

However, you refuse to publicly confess Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You believe Jesus commanded it because the Jews demanded it. Thus, you believe Jesus commanded them to sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/14/14 04:51 AM

MM - THE point is that God never wanted the people to fight. That is the point. You don't see the parallel example of divorce. By your reasoning, God condoned divorce. He gave rules for it, thus He condoned it. But did God ever want divorce? No. He gave rules only because of the hardness of the hearts of the people. Christ showed us what the first principles really were. No killing, no divorce, no lying, love your enemies, do good to your enemies. No self-defense, no repaying evil with evil. You refuse to plublicly confess the real commands that Jesus wanted. You believe God wanted death and killing, and sickness and disease. It was God's plan! NO IT WAS NOT. NEVER WAS GOD'S PLAN.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/14/14 07:54 PM

The title question is - Does God punish? You say, "He gave rules only because of the hardness of the hearts of the people." You say, Jesus commanded killing because the Jews demanded it. You also say, Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

Yes, Jesus also said "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven". But it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus is recanting what He commanded in the OT.

Christ, the angel whom God had appointed to go before his chosen people, gave to Moses statutes and requirements necessary to a living religion and to govern the people of God. Christians commit a terrible mistake in calling this law severe and arbitrary, and then contrasting it with the gospel and mission of Christ in his ministry on earth, as though he were in opposition to the just precepts which they call the law of Moses. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 12}
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/14/14 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus is recanting what He commanded in the OT.
Jesus commanded "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

Jesus said, "Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."


You read, but don't understand.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/14/14 10:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
What you have said, is a murderer is someone who has not killed someone.

You say I said so. But the truth is clear. Your argument is with the Word of God. It was Jesus who commanded capital punishment and war.

Originally Posted By: kland
Tell us, how is it justified for capital punishment against children? Ever know of a judge giving capital punishment to a child? But yet you think Jesus does.

Again, your argument is with Jesus. It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to utterly kill every man, woman, and child.
So you are saying that if someone objects to Jesus murdering men, women, and children, that is something they need to take up with Him.

Do you think it would be safe for them to do so?

I mean, imagine someone asking the papacy if it was proper to burn people at the stake.



I would ask you how that viewpoint of Jesus would lead the infidel to Him, but you already said so what, that's their problem.

Sad, isn't it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/15/14 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: But it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus is recanting what He commanded in the OT. "Christ, the angel whom God had appointed to go before his chosen people, gave to Moses statutes and requirements necessary to a living religion and to govern the people of God. Christians commit a terrible mistake in calling this law severe and arbitrary, and then contrasting it with the gospel and mission of Christ in his ministry on earth, as though he were in opposition to the just precepts which they call the law of Moses. {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 12}

K: Jesus commanded "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot," Jesus said, "Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." You read, but don't understand.

Here is the context of Matthew 5:38-39

Quote:
A detachment of the Roman troops was encamped near by, on the sea-shore, and Jesus is now interrupted by the loud blast of the trumpet which is the signal for the soldiers to assemble on the plain below. They form in the regular order, bowing in homage to the Roman standard which is uplifted before them. With bitterness the Jews look upon this scene which reminds them of their own degradation as a nation. Presently messengers are dispatched from the army, with orders to various distant posts. As they toil up the abrupt bank that borders the shore, they are brought near to the listening crowd that surrounds Jesus, and they force some of the Jewish peasants to carry their burdens for them up the steep ascent. The peasants resist this act of oppression, and address their persecutors with violent language; but they are finally compelled to obey the soldiers, and perform the menial task required of them. This exhibition of Roman authority stirs the people with indignation, and they turn eagerly to hear what the great Teacher will say of this cruel act of oppression. With sadness, because of the sins which had brought the Jews into such bondage, Jesus looks upon the shameful scene. He also notes the hatred and revenge stamped upon the faces of the Jews, and knows how bitterly they long for power to crush their oppressors. Mournfully he says:-- {2SP 222.2}

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." {2SP 223.1}

Jesus is addressing Jewish rage, hatred, and desire to retaliate against the Romans. The Law of Moses does not demand eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth under such circumstances. The law is clear:

Quote:
Exodus
21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Leviticus
24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him [again].
24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Jesus commanded just and equitable recompense in the Law of Moses. The requirements applied to the Jewish nation under the Theocracy of Jesus. While under Roman rule the Jews were not free to enforce all aspects of the Law of Moses. They were not at liberty, under Roman rule, to invoke the Law of Moses against Roman soldiers who oppressed them and harshly abused them.

Again, it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus recanted what He commanded in the Law of Moses. Nevertheless, your argument is invalid, even if it were true. It doesn't change the fact Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You have not dealt with the truth. You are avoiding it. In so doing, you give the impression that Jesus made a mistake when He commanded killing criminals and combatants and that He corrected His mistake in the NT.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/15/14 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: Again, your argument is with Jesus. It was Jesus who commanded the Jews to utterly kill every man, woman, and child.

K: So you are saying that if someone objects to Jesus murdering men, women, and children, that is something they need to take up with Him. Do you think it would be safe for them to do so? I mean, imagine someone asking the papacy if it was proper to burn people at the stake. I would ask you how that viewpoint of Jesus would lead the infidel to Him, but you already said so what, that's their problem. Sad, isn't it.

You are avoiding the truth. Jesus clearly commanded killing criminals and combatants. You are denying the Word of God. You act as if Jesus did not command killing criminals and combatants. You cannot pick and choose what you believe. Either the Bible is true or it is not.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/15/14 07:57 PM

MM - are you blind to the truth that God never wanted the people take the land by warfare? Are you blind to the truth that if you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father?

Only like can appreciate like. Unless you accept in your own life the principle of self-sacrificing love, which is the principle of His character, you cannot know God. The heart that is deceived by Satan, looks upon God as a tyrannical, relentless being; the selfish characteristics of humanity, even of Satan himself, are attributed to the loving Creator. “Thou thoughtest,” He says, “that I was altogether such an one as thyself.” Psa_50:21. His providences are interpreted as the expression of an arbitrary, vindictive nature. So with the Bible, the treasure house of the riches of His grace. The glory of its truths, that are as high as heaven and compass eternity, is undiscerned. To the great mass of mankind, Christ Himself is “as a root out of a dry ground,” and they see in Him “no beauty that” they “should desire Him.” Isa_53:2. When Jesus was among men, the revelation of God in humanity, the scribes and Pharisees declared to Him, “Thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil.” Joh_8:48. Even His disciples were so blinded by the selfishness of their hearts that they were slow to understand Him who had come to manifest to them the Father’s love. This was why Jesus walked in solitude in the midst of men. He was understood fully in heaven alone.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/15/14 09:37 PM

APL, even if Jesus never wanted the Jews to fight (not saying I believe you), it doesn't change the fact He commanded them to utterly kill every man, woman, and child. You have not dealt with the truth.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/15/14 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, even if Jesus never wanted the Jews to fight (not saying I believe you), it doesn't change the fact He commanded them to utterly kill every man, woman, and child. You have not dealt with the truth.


And very soon religious people will do it again saying it is God's will. They will claim to have had direct communication from God to do so and bring Biblical statements to prove it.

But it will not be God's will at all.

I don't think anyone realizes what they are doing by pushing and pushing this topic.

The crusades against the Waldenses and the Huguenots were all so called "Holy Wars" in which thousands of whole families were killed. The people who hunted down and did the killing believed they were doing God's will and gaining God's favor.

We've been watching the videos "The Spreading Flame" documenting the Reformation Era -- thousands of people were burned or drowned or suffered other cruel deaths because a church believed God commanded them to do this.

In the very near future it will happen again.

But who will be authorizing this? Which spirit?

While I don't agree with APL's theology on this matter, yet I most certainly do not agree with those who believe the death sentence should be reinstated for religious and moral based "crimes". Yes, those "stoning" laws ended at the cross.

Christ took the penalty of death upon Himself at the cross. Thus He could say to the woman caught in adultery, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more."
The only reason any need perish in the final destruction, is because they rejected this marvelous offer of life.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/16/14 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, even if Jesus never wanted the Jews to fight (not saying I believe you), it doesn't change the fact He commanded them to utterly kill every man, woman, and child. You have not dealt with the truth.
It changes everything if you start with a false premise, that God wanted the people to fight.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/16/14 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
While I don't agree with APL's theology on this matter, yet I most certainly do not agree with those who believe the death sentence should be reinstated for religious and moral based "crimes". Yes, those "stoning" laws ended at the cross.

Christ took the penalty of death upon Himself at the cross. Thus He could say to the woman caught in adultery, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." The only reason any need perish in the final destruction, is because they rejected this marvelous offer of life.

Amen!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/16/14 09:19 PM

APL, I doubt you are ever going to confess the truth. It is pointless to discuss it with you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/16/14 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, I doubt you are ever going to confess the truth. It is pointless to discuss it with you.
I'm not forcing you to continue. It is interesting that you think I won't believe the truth, but you do understand that I think it is YOU that won't believe the truth. As I said, if you start with a false premise and do everything in your power to support that premise, you will just harden your heart to the truth. Coercive power is not found in God's government. God never wanted the people to fight, but fight they did! But this is not God's way of governing.

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

So, no one is compelling you to continue this conversation. I do not see the truth about God in what you have presented. If you do not accept the truth that God did not want the people to fight, then you can't understand the actions and motives that followed. It is pointless for you to continue to try to change my view on this, that is true. It is not pointless for me to try to show you the way. But I won't make you continue or force you to see it my way, for surely I can't and that is not my job. Only the Spirit can guide you into all truth. Just don't reject it when it comes.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/16/14 11:27 PM

The truth is - Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You have not confessed this truth. You argue as if it is not true. You also argue as if it was the Jews' fault Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants (they demanded it so He commanded it). You cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus did or did not command killing criminals and combatants. Again, I doubt you will ever state your belief plainly. Most likely you will continue to avoid the question and emphasize the fact Jesus never wanted the Jews to divorce, or to have a king, or your favorite idea - He never wanted them to fight. The other thing you believe, which I find offensive, is you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin (by commanding them to kill criminals and combatants).
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 03:24 AM

God permitted divorce - adultery! Why? Hardness of heart. Blindness to the truth.

My beliefs are very plain. No killing. No using of the sword for any reason. God never wanted fighting. EGW is very clear, So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

I think you believe that the children of Israel reflect the best example of a theocracy. NO. It was not a theocracy. The best example we have is Jesus. Have you seen Jesus? If so, you have seen the truth, what God is.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus commanded just and equitable recompense in the Law of Moses. The requirements applied to the Jewish nation under the Theocracy of Jesus. While under Roman rule the Jews were not free to enforce all aspects of the Law of Moses. They were not at liberty, under Roman rule, to invoke the Law of Moses against Roman soldiers who oppressed them and harshly abused them.

Again, it is a "mistake" to assume Jesus recanted what He commanded in the Law of Moses.
So you really think that if they weren't under Roman rule and they were at liberty, that in context of what Jesus was saying, they really should pluck eye for eye and tooth for tooth.


That is REALLY sad!


And, that is the spirit of the coming reinstating of religious persecution because they/you believe God is commanding this.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The other thing you believe, which I find offensive, is you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin (by commanding them to kill criminals and combatants).
You believe the same thing excepting you call it not sin. Why? Because you don't know the difference between right and wrong.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 07:16 PM

Kland, it's a good thing you weren't a Jew living under the theocracy of Jesus. I have no doubt you have would disobeyed the command to kill criminals and combatants.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
My beliefs are very plain. No killing. No using of the sword for any reason.

And yet Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Like Kland, I have no doubt you would have disobeyed Jesus' command and would have incurred His wrath.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
My beliefs are very plain. No killing. No using of the sword for any reason.

And yet Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Like Kland, I have no doubt you would have disobeyed Jesus' command and would have incurred His wrath.
And God gave commands for divorce - adultery. If you start with the wrong premise, you conclusions will be wrong...
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/17/14 09:53 PM

The premise is biblical - Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Why He commanded it is the question. But you treat it as if He didn't command it. You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin by commanding them to kill.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/18/14 06:43 AM

Your premise is that God wanted the people for fight in the first place. This is wrong, so the rest of the understanding is wrong. Why is it so hard for you to see the same situation with divorce?

Note - by beholding, you become changed. We are seeing this concept of God playing out right now on MSABOL between you and jsot.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! Truth came forth from the lips of Jesus, uncorrupted with human philosophy. His words were from heaven, such as mortal lips had never spoken nor mortal ears ever heard. His heart was an altar on which burned the flames of infinite love. Goodness, mercy, and love were enthroned in the breast of the Son of God. He set up his tabernacle in the midst of our human encampment, pitched his tent by the side of the tents of men, that he might dwell among them and make them familiar with his divine character and love. No one could love Christ and pay homage to him without serving and honoring the infinite God. Those who had an appreciation of the character and mission of Christ, were filled with reverence and awe, as they looked upon him and felt that they were looking upon the temple of the living God. Officers were sent to take the Son of God, that the temple in which God was enshrined might be destroyed. But as they drew near and heard the words of divine wisdom that fell from his lips, they were charmed, and the power and excellence of his instruction so filled their hearts and minds that they forgot the purpose for which they had been sent. Christ revealed himself to their souls. Divinity flashed through humanity, and they returned so filled with this one thought, so charmed with the ideas he had presented, that when the leaders of Israel inquired, "Why have ye not brought him?" they replied, "Never man spake like this man." They had seen that which priests and rulers would not see,--humanity flooded with the light and glory of divinity. Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/18/14 07:50 PM

Again, even if we go with your premise, we still end up with the same facts, namely, Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You haven't even acknowledged this fact.

JSOT promising God is going to hurt and destroy me soon is unfortunate. Jesus, I'm sure, feels sad about it - like He felt sad about the disciples wanting to call down fire on people who told Jesus to find lodging elsewhere.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/18/14 08:52 PM

Settling the truth that God never wanted the people to fight would allow a rational discussion of what transpired afterward. Without that fact to build on, there is no reason to discuss what happened afterward.

Your concept of God is not any different than jsot's. Face the truth, you believe God does bring fire down on people. If you are a sinner, your going to be tortured and burned, just as jsot is calling for.

Luke 9:54-55 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/19/14 04:35 AM

How do you (you personally) justify Jesus commanding killing criminals and combatants?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/19/14 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
How do you (you personally) justify Jesus commanding killing criminals and combatants?

There is a paper written by Ty Gibson which all ought to read. I have been sharing it with my friends this week as I believe it is one of the best summaries of what we Adventists should view about religion and God. I was thinking of starting a thread asking how the 3AM is righteousness by faith, and using this article as a base to launch it from. Now Daryl has posted a link to it. You can find it this tread: LIGHT BEARERS

The article speaks about “justification by faith is the third angel's message, ... in verity.” . It explains that the use of coercive force is not a principle of God government. “The inclination to control others is the core principle of the papal system.”

The idea that God actively punishes those that do not conform to His ideal, paints God as one who uses punitive force, controlling force, coercive force. This is pagan, it is papal. Until we understand this, I don't think we can't understand things like why God gave rules for divorce and other hard subjects.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/19/14 05:40 PM

I read Ty's article. Loved it. But it doesn't answer why Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You have yet to confess He did. Which may be why you prefer to discuss divorce. But ignoring the truth won't make it go away. People need answers. There are good reasons why Jesus commanded killing. Those reasons cannot include Jesus commanded sinning because sinners demand it. Jesus doesn't work that way. He saves people from their sins - not with or in their sins.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 03/19/14 07:07 PM

MM - do you accept that God does not use coercion as Ty brings out in his article?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/10/14 07:45 PM

Found this in an old thread back in 2004 that only had this post in it:
Quote:

Does God Kill? Adventist Review columnist Leslie Kay offers cogent insights on balancing grace and justice. You can read her comments on the Review website at

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/11/14 12:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Found this in an old thread back in 2004 that only had this post in it:
Quote:

Does God Kill? Adventist Review columnist Leslie Kay offers cogent insights on balancing grace and justice. You can read her comments on the Review website at

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html

Do you accept as the author states that both sides of the issue are Adventists?
Do you accept as the author states that Jesus dies the death that a sinner will in the end?

The author states that she believes that God executed His Son? Do you believe that? The author provided no direct proof of this assertion however.

Perhaps one should read The Desire of Ages, the chapter titled, Gethsemane. Do see see God executing His Son in this chapter? Nope. In fact, God suffered with His Son! Jesus IS the answer. No where do we see God executing His Son. That should tell us something!
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/11/14 07:52 PM

John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

No one or no thing killed Jesus. He laid down His own life and took up it again. The differences between what Jesus experienced on the cross and what the wicked will experience in the lake of fire is so radical as to render the comparisons nearly null and void.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/11/14 08:08 PM

So MM disagrees with the article Daryl. MM - we don't learn anything about the death of a sinner from the death or Christ, is that a fair summary of your position?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/12/14 02:33 AM

Here is what EGW has to say about this:
Quote:
Christ Magnifies the Law

The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. Isaiah 42:21. {LHU 158.1}

Were the law understood apart from Christ, it would have a crushing power upon sinful men, blotting the sinner out of existence. But by understanding the law in connection with Christ, receiving Him by faith as his substitute and surety, man sees himself as a prisoner of hope. The truth as it is in Jesus is an acquaintance with the holy, just, and good law of God, as this law is elevated, and its immutability demonstrated, in Christ. He magnified the law, expanded its every precept, and in His obedience left man an example, that he also may meet its demands. . . . {LHU 158.2}

The agonies of the garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, the abuse, heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the Crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstrations that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the surety for man, was not spared is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. {LHU 158.3}

God is love. He has shown that love in the gift of His only begotten Son. Yet the love of God does not excuse sin. God does not excuse sin in Satan, in Adam, or in Cain, nor will He excuse sin in any of the children of men. The perverted nature of man may distort the love of God into an attribute of weakness; but light is shining from the cross of Calvary, that man may have correct views and hold theories that are not perverted. {LHU 158.4}

God has given His law for the regulation of the conduct of nations, of families, and of individuals. There is not one worker of wickedness, though his sin is the least and the most secret, that escapes the denunciation of that law. The whole work of the father of lies is recorded in the statute books of heaven; and those who lend themselves to the service of Satan, to present to men his lies by precept and practice, will receive according to their deeds. Every offense against God, however minute, is set down in the reckoning. And when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work that was done to the Divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming. {LHU 158.5}

The truth as it is in Jesus will teach most important lessons. It will show that the love of God is broad and deep; that it is infinite; and that in awarding the penalty to the disobedient, those who have made void God's law, it will be uncompromising. This is the love and justice of God combined. It reaches to the very depth of human woe and degradation, to lift up the fallen and oppressed who lay hold of the truth by repentance and faith in Jesus (Review and Herald, Feb. 8, 1898). {LHU 158.6}

The above quote speaks about the love and justice of God. And God's justice punishes.

Yes, God is love, but God is also just and also hates sin and will deal with the transgressors of His law who have rejected Him and His law.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/12/14 05:30 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
So MM disagrees with the article Daryl. MM - we don't learn anything about the death of a sinner from the death or Christ, is that a fair summary of your position?

No. I said, "nearly null and void." There are far more dissimilarities between the two events.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/12/14 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: daryl
The above quote speaks about the love and justice of God. And God's justice punishes.

Yes, God is love, but God is also just and also hates sin and will deal with the transgressors of His law who have rejected Him and His law.
What exactly does God do? Let's look at what EGW says.

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."
Isaiah 24:4-5. {GC 589.3}

----

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed.
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

----

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. Tho innocent, Christ was treated as a sinner, that through His merits sinners, tho guilty, might be treated as the loyal and obedient children of God. Christ died with the sins of the world imputed to Him, that His righteousness might be imputed to the sinner. When the sense of the loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn, Christ had drained the last dregs in the cup of bitterness. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}

----

It was the anguish of separation from His Father's favor that made Christ's sufferings so acute. As the agony of soul came upon Him, "He sweat as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." His terrible suffering, caused by the thought that in this hour of need God had forsaken Him, portrays the anguish that the sinner will feel when, too late, he realizes that God's Spirit has been withdrawn from him.
{ST, August 9, 1905 par. 2}

----

The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then
God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. Her children had spurned the grace of Christ, which would have enabled them to subdue their evil impulses, and now these became the conquerors. Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul. Men did not reason; they were beyond reason--controlled by impulse and blind rage. They became satanic in their cruelty. In the family and in the nation, among the highest and the lowest classes alike, there was suspicion, envy, hatred, strife, rebellion, murder. There was no safety anywhere. Friends and kindred betrayed one another. Parents slew their children, and children their parents. The rulers of the people had no power to rule themselves. Uncontrolled passions made them tyrants. The Jews had accepted false testimony to condemn the innocent Son of God. Now false accusations made their own lives uncertain. By their actions they had long been saying: "Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us." Isaiah 30:11. Now their desire was granted. The fear of God no longer disturbed them. Satan was at the head of the nation, and the highest civil and religious authorities were under his sway. {GC 28.1}

----

Men cannot with impunity reject the warning which God in mercy sends them. A message was sent from heaven to the world in Noah's day, and their salvation depended upon the manner in which they treated that message. Because they rejected the warning,
the Spirit of God was withdrawn from the sinful race, and they perished in the waters of the Flood. In the time of Abraham, mercy ceased to plead with the guilty inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot with his wife and two daughters were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven. So in the days of Christ. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation: "Your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Looking down to the last days, the same Infinite Power declares, concerning those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved": "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love. {GC 431.1}

----

The Saviour cannot withdraw from the soul that clings to Him, pleading its great need.
{DA 198.5}

----

Hearts that respond to the influence of the Holy Spirit are the channels through which God's blessing flows.
Were those who serve God removed from the earth, and His Spirit withdrawn from among men, this world would be left to desolation and destruction, the fruit of Satan's dominion. Though the wicked know it not, they owe even the blessings of this life to the presence, in the world, of God's people whom they despise and oppress. But if Christians are such in name only, they are like the salt that has lost its savor. They have no influence for good in the world. Through their misrepresentation of God they are worse than unbelievers. {DA 306.4}

----

All heaven and the unfallen worlds had been witnesses to the controversy. With what intense interest did they follow the closing scenes of the conflict. They beheld the Saviour enter the garden of Gethsemane, His soul bowed down with the horror of a great darkness. They heard His bitter cry, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me."
Matthew 26:39. As the Father's presence was withdrawn, they saw Him sorrowful with a bitterness of sorrow exceeding that of the last great struggle with death. The bloody sweat was forced from His pores, and fell in drops upon the ground. Thrice the prayer for deliverance was wrung from His lips. Heaven could no longer endure the sight, and a messenger of comfort was sent to the Son of God. {DA 759.5} [The Father did not execute the son]
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/12/14 08:04 PM

The fruit of believing Jesus does not punish and destroy is worldliness. It comes as a package. They are soft on sin. The truth about retributive justice serves a purpose - "the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan." {SC 21.4}

The fruit of focusing on the fact Jesus does indeed punish and destroy is unloveliness. It comes as a package. They are hard on sinners. The truth about love, mercy, pardon, grace serves a purpose - "the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer?" {SC 21.3}

We need the beautiful balance - "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/12/14 11:35 PM

The judgments God declares about sin is that sin is destructive. God destroys no man. God will do as He has said He would - He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same.

Teaching that God is the destroyer is worldliness. Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 04:47 AM

Do you really believe a loving heavenly Father will withdraw His hand and permit death and destruction? If so, then you serve a cruel God. Look and live. Search the Scriptures - nowhere does it say Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His hand and permitted death and destruction.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 05:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Do you really believe a loving heavenly Father will withdraw His hand and permit death and destruction? If so, then you serve a cruel God. Look and live. Search the Scriptures - nowhere does it say Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His hand and permitted death and destruction.
Then you missed it! For we have seen it clearly!!! Look again.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 06:26 AM

At the second coming --
Christ IS COMING, not withdrawing.
The brightness of His coming destroys everyone who is not clothed with the garments of His righteousness.

So -- it is not a "withdrawing" --
It is His very presence that causes their death.


Those who accepted His offer of life, salvation and His deliverance from sin are enabled to "stand" in His presence, and join Him in the clouds in gladness.

Those who have not accepted His offer of life, will not be enabled to stand and they are consumed by the brightness of His coming.

It's rather difficult to see the rational behind what APL claims.
Obviously Christ's coming is death to the unsaved, something that would not have happened to them at that time had Christ not come at that time.

It's obvious that the unsaved will lose life -- a life that Christ could give them if He chose to do so and if He chose to allow sin to continue as He has for the past 6000 years. He could veil His glory so they won't die at that time, but because of their own choice in rejecting His ways, they die, life is no longer granted to them. They can't stand in the brightness of His glory and righteousness, it consumes them.


When God says, enough of this sin and misery, and steps in to end it, He will end it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:36 AM

dedication - is the second coming "the" end? Nope.

Is God a consuming fire? Yep! What do the unrighteous do when Christ comes? Revelation 6:15-16 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Satan is the destroyer, not God. But yet, most here say God is the biggest destroyer ever. Oh that's right, green says God is not "the" destroyer, God in only "a" destroyer. That over is not true also.

Dedication - do you not have any answer to the quotations of EGW? Why do you ignore the plainest statements? When EGW says "God destroys no man", WHY do you say that God does destroy sinners? Sinners die, but WHY???? Not by execution. Chris died, HOW, WHY? Was Christ executed by God? God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Dedication
So -- it is not a "withdrawing" --
It is His very presence that causes their death.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}
What is removed? What is given over? Bonus question - WHO causes the last plagues? God or Satan?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:35 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
dedication - is the second coming "the" end? Nope.

Is God a consuming fire? Yep! What do the unrighteous do when Christ comes? Revelation 6:15-16 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:



It is the end of this world as it presently stands, and the unsaved do more than run to hide, they are consumed by the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess. 2
And Revelation 19 says they are slain.

Are you suggesting those who reach the caves keep on living? No, they don't, and most of them never reach any caves. There are still great multitudes of people living to see Christ coming, they don't all die in the plagues, they are consumed by the brightness of His coming.

You simply jump around the obvious, of what I stated as if it won't happen.

All the unsaved will die, because of Christ's coming.
They won't be able to stand in the brightness of his coming.
The saved are enabled to stand, because they have accepted the forgiveness and righteousness of Christ, but the unsaved can't stand, they are consumed.

It's because of His coming that they die.

No human unsaved human will be left alive during those 1000 years.

Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:41 AM

No debate - no human will be left alive during the 1000 years.

Does raise the unrighteous just to kill them again at the end of the 1000 years?

I recommend listening to the following: http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=164213#Post164213
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:42 AM

Quote:
"But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Quote:
"But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

AMEN and AMEN.

Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption. {COL 84.3}

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Do you really believe a loving heavenly Father will withdraw His hand and permit death and destruction? If so, then you serve a cruel God. Look and live. Search the Scriptures - nowhere does it say Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His hand and permitted death and destruction.

A: Then you missed it! For we have seen it clearly!!! Look again.

If you believe Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His shielding hand and permitted death and destruction then your God is twice as cruel. My God does not withdraw His hand. He is kind and loving. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction." Even human fathers, who are evil, would not withdraw and permit harm to come to their children. You are arguing human fathers are more kind and loving than our heavenly Father. "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
I'm saying what I understand about you. To say otherwise would be lying.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:22 PM

You have zero proof. You are lying without evidence.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Do you really believe a loving heavenly Father will withdraw His hand and permit death and destruction? If so, then you serve a cruel God. Look and live. Search the Scriptures - nowhere does it say Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His hand and permitted death and destruction.

A: Then you missed it! For we have seen it clearly!!! Look again.

If you believe Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His shielding hand and permitted death and destruction then your God is twice as cruel. My God does not withdraw His hand. He is kind and loving. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction."
That's right - it is "love me or I'll kill you". He will do it actively because He is not some mamby-pamby god. He is JUST.

Have you read Deuteronomy 32 recently or many other texts like it?

Now, you said there was no example of God giving up, letting go. Then have not not seen the death of Christ? There is no better example! No better revelation of how God is involved in the death of the wicked.

But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. It was the hiding of His Father's face--a sense that His own dear Father had forsaken Him--which brought despair. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. {2T 214.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: If you believe Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His shielding hand and permitted death and destruction then your God is twice as cruel. My God does not withdraw His hand. He is kind and loving. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction."

A: That's right - it is "love me or I'll kill you". He will do it actively because He is not some mamby-pamby god. He is JUST. Have you read Deuteronomy 32 recently or many other texts like it? Now, you said there was no example of God giving up, letting go. Then have not not seen the death of Christ? There is no better example! No better revelation of how God is involved in the death of the wicked.

The god you are describing is a false god. Jesus is a kind and loving Saviour. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction."
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: If you believe Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His shielding hand and permitted death and destruction then your God is twice as cruel. My God does not withdraw His hand. He is kind and loving. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction."

A: That's right - it is "love me or I'll kill you". He will do it actively because He is not some mamby-pamby god. He is JUST. Have you read Deuteronomy 32 recently or many other texts like it? Now, you said there was no example of God giving up, letting go. Then have not not seen the death of Christ? There is no better example! No better revelation of how God is involved in the death of the wicked.

The god you are describing is a false god. Jesus is a kind and loving Saviour. He promises, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." He doesn't threaten, "Love me or I'll withdraw and permit death and destruction."

You are right! I don't describe God like that. God is not the source of sickness, disease, and death. Do you now agree?????? i doubt it
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 08:44 PM

First, you lied about me. You haven't addressed my concern.

Second, you believe in a god who withdraws His restraining hand and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/13/14 10:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
First, you lied about me. You haven't addressed my concern.

Second, you believe in a god who withdraws His restraining hand and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction.
First - I only lied if I knowingly said something false. If you would like to clarify, please do.

Second - God does not force Himself on us. If we persist in rejection of the Spirit, He will give us our way. It is the devil that has caused all sickness, disease, and death. Have you considered the book of Job?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/14/14 07:42 PM

First, you made false accusations about me without proof. If you are innocent of lying then you are, at least, guilty of recklessness, slander, and character assassination. I cannot imagine Jesus doing what you did. Either apologize or prove your accusation.

Second, you believe in a god who withdraws His restraining hand and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Moreover, you believe He gives evil men and evil angels permission to harm, molest, and murder innocent women and children.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/14/14 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
First, you made false accusations about me without proof. If you are innocent of lying then you are, at least, guilty of recklessness, slander, and character assassination. I cannot imagine Jesus doing what you did. Either apologize or prove your accusation.
I based my opinion on what you have written here. The record is here for all to read. If I am wrong, feel free to clear it up.

Originally Posted By: mm
Second, you believe in a god who withdraws His restraining hand and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Moreover, you believe He gives evil men and evil angels permission to harm, molest, and murder innocent women and children.
Has you not read the story of Job? And read GC pages 36 and 37. And GC page 589. Start there. God will not force Himself on us. To that, read SC page 10 and the first 5-6 paragraphs of chapter 5. As to killing and murder, the 6th commandment is no killing, period. That is a point of contention between us, is it not? I don't what to recklessly misrepresent your opinion on this, so if this is wrong, clear up the record.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Second, you believe in a god who withdraws His restraining hand and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Moreover, you believe He gives evil men and evil angels permission to harm, molest, and murder innocent women and children.
Why are you hostile towards the idea of a God of love instead of a god of sickness, disease, and death?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?
APL, MM is objecting to a sentence structure technicality. You should have said:
Does the death of Christ say hardly anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 08:02 PM

The cross says plenty about the lake of fire. However, there are way more differences between the two events.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 08:04 PM

APL, you believe Jesus withdraws His protections and permits innocent women and children to be killed. Jesus did not do that while here in the flesh.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 08:05 PM

APL, your unwillingness to apologize is unChristlike.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/15/14 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you believe Jesus withdraws His protections and permits innocent women and children to be killed. Jesus did not do that while here in the flesh.
The giving up, letting go, handing over, (quoting Romans 1) is what I am talking about, WHY do you insist on adding the adjective innocent? Satan has indeed killed many bystanders in the war. Have you read the book of Job? Were Job's children innocent in your mind? Perhaps not. But WHO killed them? Not God! And yes, we did see how God was is involved in the death of a sinner, we did see the letting go, and it is not pretty.

As for your judgment that I am a liar, that may be your opinion. If I hurt your feelings, for that I am sorry. but please, clarify your position if I am wrong.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/16/14 03:10 AM

APL, you accused me of believing something I do not. The onus is upon you to prove your allegations. Otherwise you are guilty of bearing false witness.

Also, you believe Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Do you also believe evil men and evil angels are at liberty to cause death and destruction whenever and however they please - including killing innocent women and children?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/16/14 04:05 AM

1) MM - what is false in what I have said?

2) Have you read the book of Job recently?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/16/14 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you believe Jesus withdraws His protections and permits innocent women and children to be killed.
Why are you hostile towards the idea of a God of love instead of a god of sickness, disease, and death?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/16/14 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you believe Jesus withdraws His protections and permits innocent women and children to be killed. Jesus did not do that while here in the flesh.

Mr 11:13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mr 11:14 In response Jesus said to it, "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again." And His disciples heard it.

Mr 11:20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.


Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Mt 23:38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate;
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 04:06 AM

APL, please apologize.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 04:13 AM

Kland, citing a withered fig tree as proof Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to kill innocent women and children misses the mark.

Also, saying, "Your house is left unto you desolate" as proof Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to kill innocent women and children is false.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 07:11 AM

Actually, the presence of God and the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from those who rejected Christ.

A lot more happened in Jerusalem, then just the armies of Rome coming to destroy the city.

Quote:
"Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. Her children had spurned the grace of Christ, which would have enabled them to subdue their evil impulses, and now these became the conquerors. Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul." GC 27


Jerusalem was riddled with different factions fighting each other.

While I see APL taking things to far in denying that God will execute justice and put a final end to sins madness, yet it is true that the mess, and trouble, death, disease and all the other maladies of this world that sin has made is the result of sin --

God had to allow it or no one would know how bad sin really is, and thus they would believe satan's lie that life without God's law is good. The trouble, sickness, death, misery etc. are all a witness to how horrible things are when God's laws are disregarded.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 07:37 AM

Executing justice is doing the right thing. God does not need to kill anyone, because that is what sin does. Death is the result of sin, not God. The final end of sinners is not an execution, but a final giving up, letting go. Again, see GC36-37 and GC589. "God destroys no man". That quote is too clear to be misunderstood. Sin is the cause of all sickness, disease and death. ALL of it. For another view of the end of sin and sinners, see this thread with Four Readings from the Book of Transparency. It is Satan and sin that cause all the distress and death.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 09:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, please apologize.
Please show what it is I need to apologize for, clarify your position.

You see MM - dedication has wrongly represented my view on numerous occasions, such as shortly above where she said I believe that the wicked will live in caves at the second coming, or as in her last post where she said that I say God will not put an end to the sin problem. Subtle digs such as that, even when I clearly state the opposite.

Perhaps MM, you should read what EGW wrote in Thoughs on the Mount of Blessing, page 32ff! I will quote so you don't have to take the time to look it up...

There was never one who walked among men more cruelly slandered than the Son of man. He was derided and mocked because of His unswerving obedience to the principles of God's holy law. They hated Him without a cause. Yet He stood calmly before His enemies, declaring that reproach is a part of the Christian's legacy, counseling His followers how to meet the arrows of malice, bidding them not to faint under persecution. {MB 32.1}

While slander may blacken the reputation, it cannot stain the character. That is in God's keeping. So long as we do not consent to sin, there is no power, whether human or satanic, that can bring a stain upon the soul. A man whose heart is stayed upon God is just the same in the hour of his most afflicting trials and most discouraging surroundings as when he was in prosperity, when the light and favor of God seemed to be upon him. His words, his motives, his actions, may be misrepresented and falsified, but he does not mind it, because he has greater interests at stake. Like Moses, he endures as "seeing Him who is invisible" (
Hebrews 11:27); looking "not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (2 Corinthians 4:18). {MB 32.2}

Christ is acquainted with all that is misunderstood and misrepresented by men. His children can afford to wait in calm patience and trust, no matter how much maligned and despised; for nothing is secret that shall not be made manifest, and those who honor God shall be honored by Him in the presence of men and angels.
{MB 32.3}

"When men shall revile you, and persecute you," said Jesus, "rejoice, and be exceeding glad." And He pointed His hearers to the prophets who had spoken in the name of the Lord, as "an example of suffering affliction, and of patience."
James 5:10. Abel, the very first Christian of Adam's children, died a martyr. Enoch walked with God, and the world knew him not. Noah was mocked as a fanatic and an alarmist. "Others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment." "Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection." Hebrews 11:36, 35. {MB 33.1}

In every age God's chosen messengers have been reviled and persecuted, yet through their affliction the knowledge of God has been spread abroad. Every disciple of Christ is to step into the ranks and carry forward the same work, knowing that its foes can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. God means that truth shall be brought to the front and become the subject of examination and discussion, even through the contempt placed upon it. The minds of the people must be agitated; every controversy, every reproach, every effort to restrict liberty of conscience, is God's means of awakening minds that otherwise might slumber.
{MB 33.2}

How often this result has been seen in the history of God's messengers! When the noble and eloquent Stephen was stoned to death at the instigation of the Sanhedrin council, there was no loss to the cause of the gospel. The light of heaven that glorified his face, the divine compassion breathed in his dying prayer, were as a sharp arrow of conviction to the bigoted Sanhedrist who stood by, and Saul, the persecuting Pharisee, became a chosen vessel to bear the name of Christ before Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. And long afterward Paul the aged wrote from his prison house at Rome: "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife: . . . not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds. . . . Notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached."
Philippians 1:15-18. Through Paul's imprisonment the gospel was spread abroad, and souls were won for Christ in the very palace of the Caesars. By the efforts of Satan to destroy it, the "incorruptible" seed of the word of God, "which liveth and abideth forever" (1 Peter 1:23), is sown in the hearts of men; through the reproach and persecution of His children the name of Christ is magnified and souls are saved. {MB 33.3}

Great is the reward in heaven of those who are witnesses for Christ through persecution and reproach. While the people are looking for earthly good, Jesus points them to a heavenly reward. But He does not place it all in the future life; it begins here. The Lord appeared of old time to Abraham and said, "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."
Genesis 15:1. This is the reward of all who follow Christ. Jehovah Immanuel--He "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," in whom dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:3, 9)--to be brought into sympathy with Him, to know Him, to possess Him, as the heart opens more and more to receive His attributes; to know His love and power, to possess the unsearchable riches of Christ, to comprehend more and more "what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God" (Ephesians 3:18, 19)--"this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17. {MB 34.1}

Now if I have misrepresented your view, please, clarify it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 07:06 PM

APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 07:08 PM

APL:

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?
APL, MM is objecting to a sentence structure technicality. You should have said:
Does the death of Christ say hardly anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/17/14 11:32 PM

Hardly anything - and what would that be then exactly????

Did Christ die the penalty of transgression? YES. What is the penalty of transgression? DEATH. Did the Father execute Christ? NO. What does that tell us about the death of sinners in the end? (Note to dedication - sinners die! sin will be no more!!)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 05:41 PM

APL has frequently stated here that God destroys via the "withdraw and permit" principle, i.e., that God is simply allowing the destruction to occur via "natural causes" that do no include any direct action on His part. However, APL and others who adopt this view have things almost precisely backwards. I say "almost" because there are times when God does withdraw His protection in a specific manner to allow consequences to come for sin. However, while this occurs on occasion, ever since the inception of sin, God has used the "withdraw and permit" principle to allow sinners to live without being killed by His glorious presence.

It was only by cloaking Himself and His character that God was able to allow sinners to live. For this reason, Jesus was unable to come among us in His divine glory. He came, instead, as a man; as one of us. By withdrawing His glory, and preventing us from seeing it, He prevented our immediate destruction.

The day will come, however, when sinners will be slain by the brightness of His coming. In that day, when they see Him, they will seek to hide. His glory will cause them to shudder in horror.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
With awful distinctness do priests and rulers recall the events of Calvary. With shuddering horror they remember how, wagging their heads in Satanic exultation, they exclaimed, “He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him.” [Matthew 27:42, 43.] {GC88 643.3}

Vividly they recall the Saviour's parable of the husbandmen who refused to render to their lord the fruit of the vineyard, who abused his servants and slew his son. They remember, too, the sentence which they themselves pronounced: The lord of the vineyard will miserably destroy those wicked men. In the sin and punishment of those unfaithful men, the priests and elders see their own course and their own just doom. And now there rises a cry of mortal agony. Louder than the shout, “Crucify him! crucify him!” which rang through the streets of Jerusalem, swells the awful, despairing wail, “He is the Son of God! He is the true Messiah!” They seek to flee from the presence of the King of kings. In the deep caverns of the earth, rent asunder by the warring of the elements, they vainly attempt to hide. {GC88 643.4}



When He comes, it is the opposite of withdrawing. While He was withdrawn from humanity, so that no one could see His face, we were permitted to live. Unsanctified sinners who have refused His grace will then be slain when He draws near.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In that day when every work shall be brought into judgment, when the Lord Jesus, with the marks of the crucifixion on his body, shall come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, those who, while holding positions of trust, have caused God's people to suffer, will cast their idols of silver and gold to the moles and to the bats; "to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth." "For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 10}

They have shown no respect for God, no fear to transgress his commandments; but have refused to give their fellowmen rights equal to their own, and have tried to make them disobey God. They have stubbornly adhered to man-made commandments, and they will be judged accordingly. Those who persist in enacting laws which men can not obey without dishonoring God, and those that obey these laws, and trample on the law of the eternal God, must prepare for the result; for God will not change, nor alter the thing which has gone out of his mouth. {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 11}


When God's anger is kindled, if He does NOT withdraw and permit sinners to live, they will be killed. When He withdraws, however, they are exposed and may die of "natural causes." It is God's constant balance between mercy and justice that permits any of us to continue living in sin. If we had only the justice of God, all of us would cease to exist. In mercy, He hides Himself and His wrath from us, permitting us to live. If He sees fit in justice to abandon us to "natural causes," we may find our lives cut short. Even in this, God is righteous and fair.

When God asserted His presence with greater vividness to the people, they feared for their lives.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the hearing of all Israel, God had spoken in awful majesty upon Mount Sinai, declaring the precepts of his law. The people, overwhelmed with the sense of guilt, and fearing to be consumed by the glory of the presence of the Lord, had entreated Moses, "Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die." God called Moses up into the mount that he might communicate to him the laws for Israel, but how quickly the solemn impression made upon that people by the manifestation of God's presence, passed away. Even the leaders of the host seemed to have lost their reason. The memory of their covenant with God, their terror when, falling upon their faces, they had exceedingly feared and quaked, all had vanished like smoke. Although the glory of God was still like devouring fire upon the top of the mount, yet when the presence of Moses was withdrawn, the old habits of thought and feeling began to assert their power. The people wearied of waiting for the return of Moses, and began to clamor for some visible representation of God. {PH154 43.3}


This is the same God who will come in the clouds of glory in the promised Advent. Many will be afraid of Him--with cause.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:8)


Note that the Bible never says sin or Satan will destroy the wicked when Jesus comes. It says He will destroy them by His brightness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 06:15 PM

Green - include ALL EGW quotes on the subject, for it you don't you can pick and choose what you want to make it say what you want. Example {GC 36}, God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. What is the sentence against transgression? Death. Or this one, It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2} And note, withdrawing is not necessarily leaving as you are trying to imply, but withdrawing His protection. God is our shield. But He will not force Himself on us, if we persistantly reject Him, He will do was He said. Yes, when God does reveal Himself, there will be terror. WHY? God's GLORY IS HIS CHARACTER.

You should study the following, not that you will...

Four readings on the Book of Transparency [also known as the Book of Revelation] by Sigve Tonstad, M.D., Ph.D.

1) Transparency and Understanding
2) Crisis in the Heavenly Council
3) Revelation - Not Retribution
4) Vision of Healing

CLICK HERE FOR AUDIO AND POWERPOINT

Even Jon Paulien, Ph.D., another Revelation scholar joins in the conversation. From August 2013.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 06:57 PM

APL,

Do you believe that God has NOT withdrawn His face and glory from sinners in order to permit them to live?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Hardly anything - and what would that be then exactly????

Did Christ die the penalty of transgression? YES. What is the penalty of transgression? DEATH. Did the Father execute Christ? NO. What does that tell us about the death of sinners in the end? (Note to dedication - sinners die! sin will be no more!!)

Who said "hardly anything"?

Are you aware of any differences between Jesus' experience and what the wicked will experience? Here is some things to consider:

Quote:
The arm of Omnipotence alone can cleanse the earth from the evil which Satan has brought into it. This He will do by destroying the world by fire, even as He destroyed the old world by a flood. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 13}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. {GC 673.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

The wicked are enraged. They hate God. They conspire with evil angels to attack the New Jerusalem. They hate one another. They turn upon each other. Fire rains down from heaven and raises up from below. They suffer in a flaming, liquid sea of fire in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. Satan's dies last.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 08:08 PM

GC, good point. There are times when Jesus employs the "withdraw and permit principle of punishment". It applies to evil men and evil angels. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}

However, the "withdraw and permit principle of punishment" does not apply to the forces of nature. Nature, as you know, is not self-acting. Without His intimate involvement nature is inert. It would cease to act or exist. Jesus uses the forces of nature to cause suffering, death, and destruction. APL is forced to conclude nature is indeed self-acting.

I also like your point about Jesus withdrawing His glorious brightness to protect us from consuming to death. Thank you, Jesus.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 08:23 PM

Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire,
Isaiah 33:14-15 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For you will heap burning coals on his head, And the LORD will reward you.
Romans 12:19-21 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

What is God's glory? HIS CHARACTER. What is the final message of mercy to the world? HIS CHARACTER.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/18/14 10:02 PM

APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 01:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.
Are the seven seals real? Are the seven trumpets real? How about the bowls, are they literal? What happens in the wine press? How readest thou?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 05:11 AM

Still haven't answered my questions. Please do.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 07:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.
The answer is in scripture.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.
The answer is in scripture.

Indeed it is.

Psalm 15Isaiah 33Comments
A Psalm of David. LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? (verse 1)The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (verse 14)The term "holy hill" appears synonymous with "devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings."
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. (verse 2)He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; (verse 15a)These verses show Biblical parallelism in teaching the same truths.
[He that] backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour. (verse 3)that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (verse 15d)
[He that] putteth not out his money to usury, (verse 5a)
he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, (verse 15b)
nor taketh reward against the innocent. (verse 5b)that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, (verse 15c)
He that doeth these [things] shall never be moved. (verse 5c)He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure. (verse 16)


That table illustrates the fact that God's character, His "holy hill," is one of "devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings"--all from Scripture.

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 04:04 PM

Green - AMEN! I have used the same verses. Add to these:

Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation on the king of Tyrus, and say to him, Thus said the Lord GOD; You seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created.
14 You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were on the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the middle of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.
18 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.

Isaiah 13:8-9
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Some recommended studies: HERE and HERE
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 04:25 PM

Indeed, APL, there are many other passages to reflect on relative to this topic.

Notice that in Ezekiel 28:14, the "stones of fire" appears to be a part of the perfect environment of heaven. In verse 15, after mentioning that he had been perfect heretofore, iniquity is found in him.

Notice again in verse 18 Who is saying He will bring forth a fire to devour the defiled one and bring him to ashes.

Indeed, God is a consuming fire, a devouring fire, and an eternal fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 05:24 PM

Green - our "facts" are the same. Our paradigms are not.

Notice AGAIN in verse 18 - "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you". Where is the fire coming from? Why does the fire come? Is it punishment sent by God? One paradigm have God inflicting the punishment. The other has sin inflicting the punishment. Are we to be saved from God or from sin? Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 06:30 PM

APL, you have refused to apologize for bearing false witness. You also refuse to answer my questions. You make it impossible to carry on a discussion.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/19/14 10:19 PM

MM - why to you refuse to show where I am wrong about you? You are accusing me of lying, but HOW can I lie when I state what I believe? Do I have to assume you just refuse to clarify your position, or you can't, or you are embarrassed by it? (who knows...)

As for discussions, you asked a question, I tried to see how you view related symbols, you ignore the question and state I will not answer. So be it. Nothing is forcing you to continue, it is your choice.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green - our "facts" are the same. Our paradigms are not.

Notice AGAIN in verse 18 - "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you". Where is the fire coming from? Why does the fire come? Is it punishment sent by God? One paradigm have God inflicting the punishment. The other has sin inflicting the punishment. Are we to be saved from God or from sin? Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Ellen White tells us exactly where the fire comes from.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While Satan was rallying his army, the saints were in the city, beholding the beauty and glory of the Paradise of God. Jesus was at their head, leading them. All at once the lovely Saviour was gone from our company; but soon we heard His lovely voice, saying, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." We gathered about Jesus, and just as He closed the gates of the city, the curse was pronounced upon the wicked. The gates were shut. Then the saints used their wings and mounted to the top of the wall of the city. Jesus was also with them; His crown looked brilliant and glorious. It was a crown within a crown, seven in number. The crowns of the saints were of the most pure gold, decked with stars. Their faces shone with glory, for they were in the express image of Jesus; and as they arose and moved all together to the top of the city, I was enraptured with the sight. {EW 53.1}

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, "Glory; Alleluia!"

-
{EW 54.1}
[Underlining supplied, italices original]

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 05:30 AM

Ellen White writes:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.

Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 07:03 AM

Christ's Object Lessons, 84.4
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Ellen White writes:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.

We have seen these statements quoted out of context from you many times. They have their proper place. Hell is not the place. Not a one of those statements of Mrs. White referring to God's removal of protection and permitting of destruction to occur refers to either the last plagues or to the fires of hell. They refer to events occurring in probationary time, not to post-probationary events.

If you find that the statement saying "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them" applies to hell, then please explain how both it and the one saying "fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them" can be true at one and the same time.

I find the two statements to be mutually exclusive with regard to the same event. They must, therefore, refer to separate events or times.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 08:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Christ's Object Lessons, 84.4


Thank you. This statement refers to the destruction of one's character by his or her own free choices. It accompanies the text of Gal. 6:7. God does not force us to sow "wild oats." It is our own choice to destroy ourselves thus.

The statement does not, however, address the destruction of the soul and body to take place in hell following the destruction of one's character during probationary time.

We may choose whether or not to destroy our characters. God does not do this. Far from it, He wishes to build up and to restore our characters to His likeness. But if we destroy ourselves, He will be forced to destroy our soul and body in hell.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 04:33 PM

Oh that's right, when EGW says, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;", you would say, yes He is the executioner, is that correct? It's all out of contect. What is the sentence against transgression, death. When is that administered?

Some recommended studies: HERE and HERE
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 05:50 PM

APL,

Maybe some day you will understand what "stand toward" means. It will open your eyes.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 06:17 PM

That's right! God IS the executioner, but he does not stand, perhaps he sits?
Originally Posted By: green
But if we destroy ourselves, He will be forced to destroy our soul and body in hell.
Maybe someday, you will understand who it is the destroys the body and soul in the grave, and when you do, perhaps, maybe, it will open your eyes.

Your paradigm has God being the executioner. He is not.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 06:38 PM

APL,

Who can kill the soul?

Originally Posted By: Jesus
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And who is NOT able to kill the soul?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 07:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Who can kill the soul?

Originally Posted By: Jesus
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


And who is NOT able to kill the soul?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Answer: Do I Have To Believe In Hell?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 09:10 PM

APL, this is the third time I've reposted this.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/20/14 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, this is the third time I've reposted this.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
Yep - and I think I have responded each time. Shalom.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/21/14 01:06 AM

APL,

I read the handout at that page. No answer there. Lots of texts. Texts are good. But the "who" questions went unanswered.

Please tell me who YOU think is able and is not able to kill the soul.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/21/14 02:18 AM

correct - the handout is just that, a handout - with texts and a few definitions. The meat is in the sermon.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/21/14 08:01 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, this is the third time I've reposted this.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL:

Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Thou shalt not bear false witness. You are lying about me.
Yep - and I think I have responded each time. Shalom.

Responded? You lied about me. And you have refused to apologize.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/21/14 08:45 PM

AND - You refuse to clarify what exactly I lied about! WHY? I only lied if I do not believe what I said, and I believe what I said to be true. NOW - if you know me to be wrong, then show me how it is I am wrong, with specifics. But if you will not, then I have nothing more to say on the subject.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 04:09 AM

What makes you so certain I believe the death of Christ says nothing about the death of a sinner? On what are you basing your accusation?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 04:12 AM

APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The cross says plenty about the lake of fire. However, there are way more differences between the two events.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 04:14 AM

APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Are you aware of any differences between Jesus' experience and what the wicked will experience? Here is some things to consider:

Quote:
The arm of Omnipotence alone can cleanse the earth from the evil which Satan has brought into it. This He will do by destroying the world by fire, even as He destroyed the old world by a flood. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 13}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. {GC 673.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

The wicked are enraged. They hate God. They conspire with evil angels to attack the New Jerusalem. They hate one another. They turn upon each other. Fire rains down from heaven and raises up from below. They suffer in a flaming, liquid sea of fire in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. Satan's dies last.

Note the major differences between the two events.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 04:19 AM

APL:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You believe Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Did Jesus do it while here in the flesh?

Do you also believe evil men and evil angels are at liberty to cause death and destruction whenever and however they please - including killing innocent women and children?

Or, are they required to obtain Jesus' permission first?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
[quote=APL][quote=Mountain Man]APL, this is the third time I've reposted this.

[quote=Mountain Man]
Responded? You lied about me. And you have refused to apologize.
MM, this is getting old! How many posts have you falsely accused APL of saying something which you refuse to back up? And it's not just this time. More than once you falsely accuse someone about lying about what you say, but never substantiate it. Either you have some sort of weasel word you are focusing on, (such as APL should have said "hardly anything" rather than "nothing"), or you substitute one word for another. But any non-biased reasonable person would say whatever is being said reflects your view accurately even if it was not technically precise.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 06:43 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
That's right! God IS the executioner, but he does not stand, perhaps he sits?
Awww. I was going to suggest that. smile

Quote:
Originally Posted By: green
But if we destroy ourselves, He will be forced to destroy our soul and body in hell.
Maybe someday, you will understand who it is the destroys the body and soul in the grave, and when you do, perhaps, maybe, it will open your eyes.

Your paradigm has God being the executioner. He is not.
I think Green was suggesting the soul continues living...?


Green, what does "not stand toward the sinner" mean to you? How would it be said if She had indeed meant God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/22/14 07:34 PM

Kland, he didn't lie about you.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/23/14 04:03 PM

MM, he didn't lie about you either.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/23/14 07:50 PM

Speaking of lies, check out this. You can believe APL is lying to you. Or?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MFbFyKPoh0
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/23/14 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
MM, he didn't lie about you either.

He most certainly did. Even you acknowledged it.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/28/14 05:55 PM

I don't think so. Are you referring to post #164498 which addresses your supposed claim?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 04/30/14 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

APL, MM is objecting to a sentence structure technicality. You should have said: Does the death of Christ say hardly anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Kland, what do you mean? Are you saying the death of Christ says nothing to me about the death of sinners?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/01/14 06:12 PM

Quote:
1 Kings
8:56 Blessed [be] the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.
8:57 The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:
8:58 That he may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers.

Psalm
27:9 Hide not thy face [far] from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Hebrews
13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Kland, you and APL believe Jesus leaves and forsakes people - Love Me or I'll leave and forsake you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/01/14 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
Kland, you and APL believe Jesus leaves and forsakes people - Love Me or I'll leave and forsake you.
You still don't get it. If you reject God, He will not force Himself on you. He will grant you your freedom. He will remove His protection because freedom demands it. The use of force is not part of God's government. He will not force Himself on us. Earthly governments use physical force. God uses no brutal force. The wicked destroy themselves. ( {COL 77}{GC 36, 37}{GC 589} )
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/02/14 05:17 AM

APL, Jesus protects sinners all the time - even evil angels. That is not to say He is forcing Himself on them.

Also, how can the wicked destroy themselves? Can they resurrect themselves, judge themselves, and then cast themselves in the lake of fire?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/02/14 07:38 AM

MM - I thought you believed the writings of EGW. I guess I was wrong.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/02/14 05:49 PM

APL, I'm not at all surprised you didn't answer my questions or address my comment. Too bad. So sad. The point remains - You believe Jesus abandons innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels. You regularly cite Job as proof. You might as well include the missionaries who are murdered abroad.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/02/14 06:53 PM

Do you understand freedom?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/02/14 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Kland, you and APL believe Jesus leaves and forsakes people - Love Me or I'll leave and forsake you.

Quote:
- You believe Jesus abandons innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels.

For the sake of argument, let's say that's true (It's not, but let's presume it is).

And the alternative you believe is .... what?
That Jesus doesn't leave and forsake people,
That Jesus doesn't abandon innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels,
That Jesus doesn't say Love me or I'll leave and forsake you ---
But that He remains by the people to kill them, directly and intentionally tortures innocent people, and that He says Love me or I'll kill you?


Is that what you are saying? And that APL, myself, and others need to change our view of Jesus and hold a more hostile view of Him?

If not, what are you saying?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/03/14 01:37 AM

APL, yes. We are free to believe or disbelieve. You believe if we disbelieve, Jesus will abandon us to death and destruction. You also believe if we believe, Jesus will abandon us to death and destruction.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 05/03/14 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
M: Kland, you and APL believe Jesus leaves and forsakes people - Love Me or I'll leave and forsake you. You believe Jesus abandons innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels.

K: For the sake of argument, let's say that's true (It's not, but let's presume it is).

Not true? What's not true?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/15/14 03:51 PM

The following text that was brought to my attention in this morning's IIW Canada telecast reminded me of this thread:
Quote:
Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God told Noah that He "will destroy them", that "the end of all flesh is come before" Him.

So, with the exception of Noah and his family, who destroyed them? The answer is: God destroyed them.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/15/14 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
The following text that was brought to my attention in this morning's IIW Canada telecast reminded me of this thread:
Quote:
Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God told Noah that He "will destroy them", that "the end of all flesh is come before" Him.

So, with the exception of Noah and his family, who destroyed them? The answer is: God destroyed them.


Some unbelievers in the truth might say that God's promise was amiss. He didn't mean what He said. Then again, that is too unambiguously against the scripture, so they will couch those words a little in some ambiguities and vagaries so that it appears more like....when God said "I" He really meant He would just withdraw His protection and let Satan do the dirty deed (as if cleaning the world with the awesome cleansing power of "water" constitutes a "dirty" deed).

Unbelievers are left without a good, rational excuse for not accepting the truth. The Bible is plain. Misunderstanding it in situations like this must be done purposefully and intentionally. It only increases one's guilt when the truth is rejected in such a situation as involves intentional ignorance of it.

I hope some here are listening to the Holy Spirit speaking through the inspired Word.

Satan must be artful to make his deceptions appear to be truths. He is forced to use ambiguities, vagaries, mysticisms, doubtings and disputings. God speaks boldly, plainly, and unambiguously on all fundamental points of doctrine. His laws are so clear that none need make a mistake. The punishment for breaking those laws, therefore, is just. It would not be justice to punish someone who was ignorant and who had had no opportunity of learning or accepting the truth. This is why Paul says, in effect, there is no sin without law. God is just, and His punishment is just. His reward is not just, but it is merciful and gracious. For this, the redeemed will praise Him for eternity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/15/14 05:42 PM

The Bible means what it means, not what is says.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.

There you have it!! God was moved against Job to destroy him and his family.

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

There you have it!! God sent fiery serpents. Clear right?

It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him.
Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ.
{DA 471.3}

The same error is being repeated today.

Moses faithfully set before the people their great sin. It was God's power alone that had preserved them in "that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water." Deuteronomy 8:15. Every day of their travels they had been kept by a miracle of divine mercy. In all the way of God's leading they had found water to refresh the thirsty, bread from heaven to satisfy their hunger, and peace and safety under the shadowy cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. Angels had ministered to them as they climbed the rocky heights or threaded the rugged paths of the wilderness. Notwithstanding the hardships they had endured, there was not a feeble one in all their ranks. Their feet had not swollen in their long journeys, neither had their clothes grown old. God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures.
{PP 429.1}

Destruction comes when we reject God and because of freedom, God removes His protection just as he said He will.

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

The Bible means what it means, not necessarily what it says. EGW is clear - God destroys no man. Those that are destroyed, destroy themselves.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 04:23 AM

Well, from the quote below by EGW, the devil didn't do it for the devil feared for his own existence:
Quote:
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. {PP 99.3}

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The Bible means what it means, not what is says.
...
The Bible means what it means, not necessarily what it says.


Wow. Interesting. You are on very shaky ground, APL. You would use your understanding of Ellen White to contradict her own understanding and doctrine. You would use Ellen White to refute the Bible. You would teach that the Bible does not mean what it says!

APL, I beg you to consider the distance which you have traveled away from the Bible. To say that the Bible does not mean what it says, when Heaven tells us otherwise, is error. It is the only justification you can make for your unbiblical views.

Mrs. White tells us the Bible means what it says. No, this is not Mrs. White saying it. This is a heavenly messenger, an angel, whom she is quoting. All of the quote below, save for the references and for the italicized portion, is a direct quote of the angel from Heaven.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"O," said the heavenly messenger, "the Lord's institutions are terribly behind the greatness of the truths which are being fulfilled at the present time. There is a fearful misconception of the claims of duty. The frosty atmosphere in which believers are content to live retards the self-sacrificing movements which should be made to warn the world and save souls. {1SM 91.2}

"The powers of darkness are working with an intensity of effort, and year by year thousands of people, from all kindreds, nations, and tongues, pass into eternity, unwarned and unready. Our faith must mean something more definite, more decided, more important. {1SM 91.3}

"Ask my institutions and churches, 'Do you believe the Word of God? What then are you doing in missionary lines? Are you working with self-denial and self-sacrifice? Do you believe that the Word of God means what it says? Your actions show that you do not. How will you meet at the bar of God the countless millions who, unwarned, are passing into eternity? {1SM 91.4}

"'Will there be a second probation? No, no. This fallacy might just as well be given up at once. The present probation is all that we shall have. Do you realize that the salvation of fallen human beings must be secured in this present life, or they will be forever lost?'" {1SM 91.5}


Twist the angel's words at your own eternal peril.

In fact, to claim that the Bible does NOT mean what it says is to call the Bible a foolish book. Why do I say this? Look at the significance of not meaning what one says, as portrayed by Mrs. White, in the following message.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the use of language there is perhaps no error that old and young are more ready to pass over lightly in themselves than hasty, impatient speech. They think it a sufficient excuse to plead, "I was off my guard, and did not really mean what I said." But God's word does not treat it lightly. The Scripture says: {Ed 236.4}

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him." Proverbs 29:20. {Ed 236.5}

"He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." Proverbs 25:28. {Ed 236.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 10:56 AM

Green, does the Bible not mean what it means?

Try this one: Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Who is the devil accusing? Our brothers! Yeah for the women, they get off free from accusation. What does the Bible say? What does the Bible mean?

Green - did God send the serpents to bite the children of Israel? Is EGW wrong in her writing? Nope. But satan will "lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them." {GC 589.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Well, from the quote below by EGW, the devil didn't do it for the devil feared for his own existence:
Quote:
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. {PP 99.3}



I believe what EGW wrote is true! Satan did fear for his own life!!! But you did not say what you really meant - you meant to say God destroyed the earth, and Satan was afraid in the midst of all the chaos which God caused directly. But that is not what she said. God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Reread {GC 589.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 11:09 AM

Are we to be afraid of God? Is that the kind of fear we must have? Love that is agape casts out craven fear (1 John 4:18). Jesus describes a group who will appear before Him in judgment at last who think they have “kept the commandments,” but Jesus must tell them sorrowfully, “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21-22). What could have gone wrong? Their good “works” were “wonderful.”

Paul helps us understand what went wrong: these dear people had misunderstood what true commandment-keeping is. It does include Sabbathkeeping, health reform, tithe-paying, all the good works we can think of; but it fails to be true obedience unless it is motivated by agape: “Love [agape] does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [agape in the original] is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:10; the Greek construction could be understood as implying that agape alone is the fulfillment of the law). Only proclaiming Christ and Him crucified can motivate that fulfillment.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
The following text that was brought to my attention in this morning's IIW Canada telecast reminded me of this thread:
Quote:
Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God told Noah that He "will destroy them", that "the end of all flesh is come before" Him.

So, with the exception of Noah and his family, who destroyed them? The answer is: God destroyed them.
Does every place in the bible where it says God did such and such, does it mean God did such and such?

1Ch 10:13,14 And Saul died for his sin which he committed against the LORD, against the word of the LORD, which he did not keep, and also for seeking of a medium, to inquire, and inquired not of the LORD. And He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse. (MKJV)

Who killed Saul?

If we deal the same as you did with the flood, we would reply, it's as clear as day that God killed Saul. But we know that's not true. If it's not true with Saul, is it true with the flood? Could it be we should read the Bible as it means rather than what we think it says?

For if we insist on not understanding what the Bible means, but what it appears to say to us, what do we do in this case?

1Ch 10:4 And Saul said to his armor-bearer, Draw your sword and pierce me with it, lest these uncircumcised ones come and abuse me. But his armor-bearer would not, for he was very much afraid. So Saul took a sword and fell on it. (MKJV)
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/16/14 08:30 PM

Yes Kland - the Bible means what it means. To Green, I'm an unbeliever.

John 10:10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Satan is the destroyer and God is the Restorer and here centers the entire great controversy.

In striking contrast to the wrong and oppression so universally practised were the mission and work of Christ. Earthly kingdoms are established and upheld by physical force [was the flood the use of physical force to destroy the wicked inhabitants by God?], but this was not to be the foundation of the Messiah's kingdom. In the establishment of his government no carnal weapons were to be used [NONE - no carnal weapons], no coercion practised [God does not force His will on us]; no attempt would be made to force the consciences of men [will God just kill then and not try to change their mind?]. These are the principles used by the prince of darkness for the government of his kingdom [why do we put Satan's atrributes on to God?]. His agents are actively at work, seeking in their human independence to enact laws which are in direct contrast to Christ's mercy and loving-kindness. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 2}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force
[NONE - no force]; his subjects would know no oppression [love me, or I'll bring the flood on you!]. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity [yeah - but next time, He will be a tryrant, He will use force, He will destroy those that don't love Him - - WAKE UP AND SEE GOD AS HE REALLY IS]. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/17/14 10:05 AM

The Bible means what it says. To say the Bible "means what it means" is "meaningless" and nonsensical. That's the same, of course, as saying "the Bible says what it says" or that God does what He does, or any number of similar redundancies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/17/14 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible means what it says. To say the Bible "means what it means" is "meaningless" and nonsensical. That's the same, of course, as saying "the Bible says what it says" or that God does what He does, or any number of similar redundancies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says that the LORD moved David to number Israel. Is that what the Bible means? Nope.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/17/14 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible means what it says. To say the Bible "means what it means" is "meaningless" and nonsensical. That's the same, of course, as saying "the Bible says what it says" or that God does what He does, or any number of similar redundancies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says that the LORD moved David to number Israel. Is that what the Bible means? Nope.


APL,

Mrs. White tells the truth. You are in great error of self-deception, thinking your understanding superior to the Bible's own words. If the Bible said it, then the Bible meant it.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Bible means just what it says.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/17/14 05:53 PM

I'm in error. Interesting that EGW agrees with what I have said above, and you either will not or cannot argue against it. Why is that? Did God send that snakes? How? Did the LORD move David to number Israel? That is what the Bible "says", but what does the Bible mean? EGW can see it!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/17/14 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Bible means what it says. To say the Bible "means what it means" is "meaningless" and nonsensical. That's the same, of course, as saying "the Bible says what it says" or that God does what He does, or any number of similar redundancies.


2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says that the LORD moved David to number Israel. Is that what the Bible means? Nope.


APL,

Mrs. White tells the truth. You are in great error of self-deception, thinking your understanding superior to the Bible's own words. If the Bible said it, then the Bible meant it.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Bible means just what it says.

Could we focus on this problem for awhile?

Green says that White tells the truth.
The Bible says that the LORD moved David to number Israel.

Does White say that the LORD moved David to number Israel or not?

If APL agrees with White, then does that mean he agrees with the truth and not as Green says, that his understanding is superior to the Bible's own words? Or is Green saying that White's understanding is superior to the Bible's own words? Which is it, Green?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/18/14 06:06 PM


When the children of Israel were journeying through the wilderness, the Lord protected them from venomous serpents; but the time came when, because of Israel's transgression, impenitence, and stubbornness, the Lord removed His restraining power from these reptiles, and many of the people were bitten and died. Then it was that the brazen serpent was uplifted, that all who repented and looked to it in faith might live. {8T 50.2}

In the time of confusion and trouble before us, a time of trouble such as has not been since there was a nation, the uplifted Saviour will be presented to the people in all lands, that all who look to Him in faith may live.
{8T 50.3}

PP Chapter 7 - The Flood
Mercy had ceased its pleadings for the guilty race. ... Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy. They will endeavor to destroy God's people; but as Noah was shut into the ark, so the righteous will be shielded by divine power. {PP 98.2}

What is mercy?
The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}


God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."
{RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/18/14 06:13 PM

Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. {GC 492.1}

Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them.
{GC 593.2}

Endeavor to obey ALL the commandments, ALL, those will be opposed and derided. Including the 6th? No one here is opposed to the 6th, or derides those that uphold it, right?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/25/14 02:52 PM

Elisha's Effective Rebuke for Disrespect.--The idea that we must submit to ways of perverse children is a mistake. Elisha, at the very commencement of his work, was mocked and derided by the youth of Bethel. He was a man of great mildness, but the Spirit of God impelled him to pronounce a curse upon those railers. They had heard of Elijah's ascension, and they made this solemn event the subject of jeers. Elisha evinced that he was not to be trifled with, by old or young, in his sacred calling. When they told him he had better go up, as Elijah had done before him, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. The awful judgment that came upon them was of God. {CG 272.5}


The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for He was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. {2T 613.2}


From the stern punishment meted out to those perjurers, God would have us learn also how deep is His hatred and contempt for all hypocrisy and deception. In pretending that they had given all, Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, and, as a result, they lost this life and the life that is to come. The same God who punished them, today condemns all falsehood. Lying lips are an abomination to Him.


God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy…. {DD 43.4}


From those statements, a clear truth can be seen that God can, does, and will punish, just as He has at times in the past. While He does not delight in punishing, He will do it just the same when such is absolutely necessary, usually only after a considerable delay on account of His great mercy and patience with sinners. He would rather that we obey and live than to reject Him and perish. In rejection of God, we destroy our own souls, because we unfit ourselves to live in His presence.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/25/14 04:28 PM

AMEN! How does God punish? He no longer protects them - ala Fiery Serpents! and many other examples...'

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/26/14 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
AMEN! How does God punish? He no longer protects them - ala Fiery Serpents! and many other examples...'

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}


The awful judgment that came upon them was of God. {CG 272.5}

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, ... {14MR 3.1}

Obviously, there are two different entities referred to by the "them" in each of the above. For more proof of this, see the statement below:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Korah would not have taken the course he did had he known that all the directions and reproofs communicated to Israel were from God. But he might have known this. God had given overwhelming evidence that He was leading Israel. But Korah and his companions rejected light until they became so blinded that the most striking manifestations of His power were not sufficient to convince them; they attributed them all to human or satanic agency. The same thing was done by the people, who the day after the destruction of Korah and his company came to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Ye have killed the people of the Lord." Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, a sin by which man's heart is effectually hardened against the influence of divine grace. "Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man," said Christ, "it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him." Matthew 12:32. These words were spoken by our Saviour when the gracious works which He had performed through the power of God were attributed by the Jews to Beelzebub. It is through the agency of the Holy Spirit that God communicates with man; and those who deliberately reject this agency as satanic, have cut off the channel of communication between the soul and Heaven. {PP 404.4}


APL, be careful that you do not sin against the Holy Ghost by attributing God's judgments to Satan.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/26/14 06:33 PM

The awful judgment that came upon them was of God. {CG 272.5}

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, ... {14MR 3.1}

The methods are the same. Who was it that protected the children of Bethel? Who was it that protected Egypt? Who was it that protected the children of Israel in the wilderness? Who is it that protected Korah? God! We owe everything too Christ for our peace and safety. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan (see {GC 36}) God is not the executioner of the sentence against sin. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

In Korah accusing Moses of what? They dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. {PP 404.4} What sealed their doom? Accusing Moses and Aaron of causing the death of "good and holy" men by the power of the devil. God was the protector. In rejecting God, it was the power of God that was withdrawn and sinful men passed fully under the control of the evil one. It was not Satan's power that instigated the judgment. And read again, the following:

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

Green - you believe that it is God that afflicts men, but it is the evil one. The judgments of God, ALL OF THEM, do not come directly out from the Lord, but in this way, He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain my own ways before him.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 04:42 AM

"Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men."

Some people use this passage to prove Satan is the one who executes the judgments of God.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 07:02 AM

APL is as daring as Korah. I'm not that brave. I won't dare to attribute God's judgments to Satan.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 07:49 AM

You are accusing God of having the attributes of Satan. Who is it that protects? God. What happens when God in His judgment gives people up? Does God actively kill you? Are we to be more afraid of God than Satan? That is what you guys are saying! And it just is not true. God is not a killer, period, full stop. God is not the problem. Sin is the problem.

NOTE - The JUDGMENTS OF GOD, of who? GOD, do not come directly from Him, but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. WHOSE JUDGMENTS? GOD'S!!! Not Satan. Satan can not act against any whom God is protecting. The episode of the fiery serpents should be evidence enough of this.

I opened a thread asking the question, what did Christ come to save us from. Very little traffic on that thread. Why? Because most would have to answer that Christ came to save us from Himself. But that is not what Christ came to save us from.

It comes down to the question, is sin fatal? Obviously not, God has to kill the sinner. God is the problem! NO. Sin is fatal.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 07:55 AM

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

What happened in the destruction of Jerusalem? Did God destroy Jerusalem?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Are we to be more afraid of God than Satan?


Originally Posted By: Jesus
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)


Satan can only destroy your body. He cannot forcibly destroy your soul. The best he can do is tempt you down the wrong path. If you let him persuade you, you effectively choose hell for yourself, and destroy your own opportunity for eternal life. Your soul, however, cannot be destroyed by Satan, nor by fellow man. God will settle matters of the soul in hell.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 04:56 PM

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom.
...
Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator.
{GC 535.2}


It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 07:08 PM

Good News!!! God will destroy you! God will kill you! God is the one to be feared, not Satan. NO NO NO.

John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Green, I thought you were a KJV and a KJV only person. Why then do you adopt the modern translations on this text? The KJV shows the truth! Is "him" capitalized" Nope. What does that tell you? It is not God that is to be feared. IT IS YOU. Yourself! Continue reading in Matthew 10.

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.

FEAR YOU NOT!

Here is what EGW has to say, what do you think? All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. Good advice, do not agree? Continue reading: It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil. If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. {2SAT 183.4}

God destroys no man. All who are destroyed, destroy themselves.

Quiz: who are we to fear who will destroy both body and soul?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Good News!!! God will destroy you! God will kill you! God is the one to be feared, not Satan. NO NO NO.

John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Green, I thought you were a KJV and a KJV only person. Why then do you adopt the modern translations on this text? The KJV shows the truth! Is "him" capitalized" Nope. What does that tell you? It is not God that is to be feared. IT IS YOU. Yourself! Continue reading in Matthew 10.

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.

FEAR YOU NOT!

Here is what EGW has to say, what do you think? All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. Good advice, do not agree? Continue reading: It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil. If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. {2SAT 183.4}

God destroys no man. All who are destroyed, destroy themselves.

Quiz: who are we to fear who will destroy both body and soul?


I don't understand why you choose to misrepresent me. You posted the exact-same "non-KJV" text that I posted (KJV). I never capitalized the "him" in the verse, as you implied. However, I could have. It would have been true. Look at what Mrs. White says in The Desire of Ages about those words of our dear Lord.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. {DA 356.1}


If we are not to fear either men or Satan, God is the only one left to whom this would apply.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.


APL,

I am solemnly impressed that the following applies to the relationship I have with you.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There is no greater evidence that Satan is working than that those who profess to be sanctified to God's service persecute their fellow beings because they do not believe the same doctrine that they themselves believe. These will rush with fury against God's people, stating as true that which they know to be untrue. Thus they show that they are inspired by him who is an accuser of the brethren, and a murderer of the saints of God. But if God permits tyrants to do with us as the priests did with His Son, shall we give up our faith, and go back to perdition? It is not because God does not care for us that He permits these things to be; for He declares, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints" (Psalm 116:15). {TDG 371.2}

With Satan at their head to imbue them with his spirit, men may afflict God's people, they may cause pain to the body, they may take away their temporal life, but they cannot touch the life that is hid with Christ. We are not our own. Soul and body, we have been bought with the price paid on the cross of Calvary; and we are to remember that we are in the hands of Him who created us. Whatever Satan may inspire evil men to do, we are to rest in the assurance that we are under God's charge, and that by His Spirit He will strengthen us to endure. . . . {TDG 371.3}

The time is soon to come when the Lord will say, "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain" (Isaiah 26:20, 21). {TDG 371.4}

Those who love God need not be surprised if those who claim to be Christians are filled with hatred because they cannot force the consciences of God's people. Not long hence they will stand before the Judge of all the earth, to render an account for the pain they have caused to the bodies and souls of God's heritage.--Review and Herald, Dec. 28, 1897. {TDG 371.5}


I am told not to be surprised when others misrepresent me or persecute me--even though they be fellow church members. My soul and body are in His hands. He alone can create a soul, and He alone destroy it forever. Men destroy their own souls by the choices they make during their temporal life. But they cannot be successful in destroying themselves forever. God can raise them again for punishment, and He will. He will then render eternal justice.

Jesus tells us Whom to fear.

Originally Posted By: Jesus
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


And who has "power" enough "to cast into hell?"

Originally Posted By: Jesus
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Satan does not have these keys, Jesus does. We don't have these keys either--nor do the angels of Heaven. Only Jesus holds the keys "of hell and of death." His will be the duty of executing final judgment...His "strange act," as it is called, for He does not delight in it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
It comes down to the question, is sin fatal? Obviously not, God has to kill the sinner. God is the problem! NO. Sin is fatal.

Jesus had to prevent sinners from accessing and eating the fruit of the tree of life. Why? Because they would live forever. If sin is fatal there would be no need to deny sinners the tree of life.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 09:16 PM

MM - what killed Christ? The Father? No. Sin killed the Son of God. Sin is ultimately fatal. And the fatal effects of sin can be removed only by the provision that God has made.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 09:35 PM

Actually, I don't believe anything or anyone killed Jesus on the cross. I believe He tasted, consumed, and conquered our sin and second death. Afterward, He laid down His own life and took it up again on the third day.

I would appreciate you responding to the point I made above regarding sin, death, and the tree of life.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 09:39 PM

Green, why did the KJV not capitalize "him" in Matthew 10:28?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: green
I don't understand why you choose to misrepresent me. You posted the exact-same "non-KJV" text that I posted (KJV). I never capitalized the "him" in the verse, as you implied. However, I could have. It would have been true. Look at what Mrs. White says in The Desire of Ages about those words of our dear Lord.
Oh I know which text you posted. I know which version you posted. But what you did was take the modern version's interpretation of the verse. The KJV did not capitalize the word because it did not imply that it was God, but you do!
Originally Posted By: green
If we are not to fear either men or Satan, God is the only one left to whom this would apply.
Again, what did I write? You assume that if it is not men and not Satan, that God is the only one left. But if you read what I wrote this is not the case! It is YOURSELF that you need to fear. As EGW says: All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed.
Originally Posted By: green
I am solemnly impressed that the following applies to the relationship I have with you.
What you are really saying is that I am a liar. Correct?
Originally Posted By: green
I am told not to be surprised when others misrepresent me or persecute me--even though they be fellow church members.
Have I misrepresented you in the recent thread? Have I not stated that you believe that God is the one to fear? Am I wrong? I think not!
Originally Posted By: green
My soul and body are in His hands. He alone can create a soul, and He alone destroy it forever. Men destroy their own souls by the choices they make during their temporal life. But they cannot be successful in destroying themselves forever. God can raise them again for punishment, and He will.
And this is what I find so appalling and so blind to the evidence by one who claims to believe the writings of EGW. She says, "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." But you say we cannot destroy ourselves forever. EGW continues, "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

You then quote Jesus, here it is:Luke 12:4-5 And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him. You see, men, Satan and God, but do not understand that "him" as one's self. We destroy ourselves. We need to have an intelligence in the agency by which the soul is destroyed.

Yes, Jesus said: Revelation 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. You assume that the keys are using to throw people into hell. The keys are used to release us from death, the truth will set you free. Luke 11:52 Woe to you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered.

According to EGW, what is the last rays of mercy we are to take to the world? Your view Green? Or my view? I'll take mine. And you are right! Those in the church are the greatest hindrance to the truth.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/27/14 10:41 PM

All around us we meet people who blame God for deaths and injuries that surround us. Satan would like Christian people to agree with all of these godless people.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Actually, I don't believe anything or anyone killed Jesus on the cross. I believe He tasted, consumed, and conquered our sin and second death. Afterward, He laid down His own life and took it up again on the third day.

I would appreciate you responding to the point I made above regarding sin, death, and the tree of life.



We have done this before. Has anything changed? Do you not recall this quote? The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}

NOTE - "the solemn truth that is was sin that caused death".

What about the tree of life? Would it have caused life to continue? Yes! But what kind of life would it have been? A life of sickness and disease and misery.

EGW: The news of man's fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow. All heaven was in agitation. A council was held to decide what must be done with the guilty pair. The angels feared that they would put forth the hand, and eat of the tree of life, and become immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden. Angels were immediately commissioned to guard the way of the tree of life. It had been Satan's studied plan that Adam and Eve should disobey God, receive His frown, and then partake of the tree of life, that they might live forever in sin and disobedience, and thus sin be immortalized. {EW 148.2}

NOTE - if Adam and Eve had been able to eat from the tree of life, sin would have been "immortalized". No plan of salvation? That is what I read. Thus it was a blessing of God in blocked the way to the tree of life.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 01:54 AM

Quote:
What about the tree of life? Would it have caused life to continue? Yes! But what kind of life would it have been? A life of sickness and disease and misery.

So, sin causes death because God chooses not to continue to sustain the life of the sinner. The sinner loses the right to life.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Green, why did the KJV not capitalize "him" in Matthew 10:28?


Originally Posted By: APL
Oh I know which text you posted. I know which version you posted. But what you did was take the modern version's interpretation of the verse. The KJV did not capitalize the word because it did not imply that it was God, but you do!


kland and APL,

Both of you appear to know full well that you are misrepresenting the truth. What I am about to say should not need to be said, for you already know it. However, for the sake of others who may read here, it must be said, that they may know the truth.

The KJV never capitalizes pronouns for God, Jesus, etc....ever. It was not customary at the time the KJV was published to do this. The only times when the "he," "him," or "his" for God is capitalized in the KJV are the times when the grammar requires such, i.e. when the word is at the beginning of a sentence.

For you both to pretend that this is not the case is a sore misrepresentation of the truth, and I think you know full well what you are doing. You find your own opinion crossed by the lack of such a capitalization convention in the KJV, because you cannot then "prove" what you want to prove. So you pretend that the KJV should have capitalized the "him" in the text I quoted if it referred to God.

If you continue to pretend ignorance of this, you are caught in a contradiction which will prove your lack of scholarship.

Originally Posted By: APL
Yes, Jesus said: Revelation 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. You assume that the keys are using to throw people into hell. The keys are used to release us from death, the truth will set you free. Luke 11:52 Woe to you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered.


To which I will also respond, Jesus may bring back people from the dead, but no one will come back from hell. You quoted from a different version than I did...not sure why. But your version still did not capitalize the "he" that refers to Jesus.

Originally Posted By: APL
The KJV did not capitalize the word because it did not imply that it was God, but you do!


Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible, KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


APL, do you agree that the "he," "his," and "him" in the above text all apply to God? Or do you believe that since they are not capitalized, those must refer to Satan?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 03:13 AM

Green - - AGAIN - the word is not capitalized in Matthew 10:28 and so it is up to us to interpret who it is the verse it talking about. Many modern versions do not give you that option! And that it the point. You continue to ignore the EGW quote I provided. Why? The answer is simple, it points to the one that we need to fear, and it is not God. Of course, just reading after Matthew 10:28 demonstrates that it is not God that we are to fear!!! Who it is we need to fear? OURSELVES. We are the ones that decide our destiny and can destroy our souls, not men, not Satan, not God.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


APL, do you agree that the "he," "his," and "him" in the above text all apply to God? Or do you believe that since they are not capitalized, those must refer to Satan?

APL, please answer the question posted to you above. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 03:34 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
What about the tree of life? Would it have caused life to continue? Yes!

NOTE - if Adam and Eve had been able to eat from the tree of life, sin would have been "immortalized".

I'm glad you agree.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 04:46 AM

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he [he - God] gave his [his - God] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him [him - only begotten Son] should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, read Matthew 10:28

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them [them - See Matthew 10:17-21] which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him [him - who? - open to interpretation - green chooses God as the modern translations] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Note what EGW says: All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil. [who chooses the good or choose the evil - WE DO - NOT GOD] If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. {2SAT 183.4}

So MM - do not fall for the false belief that God is the on that destroys the body and soul in hell. We all need to intelligently understand how this happens. And it is OUR CHOICE to go with evil or with good and WE destroy ourselves. Do you agree or not? Will YOU answer this question?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 04:51 AM

Again...

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. {DA 356.1}


She told us we need not fear either Satan or men.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Again...

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. {DA 356.1}


She told us we need not fear either Satan or men.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
HELLO GREEN - That is what I have been saying. But you left out two more parties - GOD and YOUSELF. And She is clear we have nothing to fear from God. Who does that leave? Put all of EGW's quotes together, such as the one I provided.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
So MM - do not fall for the false belief that God is the on that destroys the body and soul in hell. We all need to intelligently understand how this happens. And it is OUR CHOICE to go with evil or with good and WE destroy ourselves. Do you agree or not? Will YOU answer this question?

Yes, I will answer your question. I'm sorry if I have failed to answer your questions in the past. I believe we determine our own outcome in judgment by the way we choose to live. If we choose to cooperate with heavenly agencies and develop perfect traits of character our eternal destiny is eternal life in the New Earth. If we refuse to cooperate and develop perfect traits of character our eternal destiny is everlasting punishment. People should be afraid of hellfire and brimstone but it seems as most are not. Perhaps they don't believe it is real. I don't know.

Quote:
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

I am definitely afraid of being punished in hellfire and brimstone. I take the warning seriously. But my primary motivation for loving and serving Jesus is not to avoid hellfire and brimstone - it is because it is so rewarding and satisfying. The curse, the warning, the threat is real. People should be afraid.

Quote:
The warning from heaven is: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation." Revelation 14:9, 10. But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. {GC 605}

With such a curse hanging over the transgressors of God's holy Sabbath, should we not show greater earnestness, greater zeal? {RH, January 8, 1889 par. 8}

Shall not we who read these threatenings, and who believe the word of God, give the warning to a world lying in darkness? {RH, July 7, 1891 par. 11}

Can Satan destroy both body and soul in hell?

Quote:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}

Ellen White capitalized the word "Him". She believed the "him" refers to God. I trust her insight. Our mind, soul, and body belong to Him. It is Jesus who will cast body and soul "alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." The idea that it is Satan who will destroy both body and soul in hell seems unlikely. Our soul is preserved with God. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." He will restore it to us in the resurrection.

Quote:
Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Hvn 40.1}

Satan does not have access to the soul or spirit or character. It is preserved with God in heaven. He cannot destroy that which he cannot access.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/28/14 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: MM
I believe we determine our own outcome in judgment by the way we choose to live. If we choose to cooperate with heavenly agencies and develop perfect traits of character our eternal destiny is eternal life in the New Earth. If we refuse to cooperate and develop perfect traits of character our eternal destiny is everlasting punishment.
So you agree, it is US that destroy our own souls in hell, not God. Am I reading you correctly?

Note - articles printed in the Signs go through editors.

EGW: All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. It is US that destroy ourselves. Futher she writes: God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

Conclusion - it is not God, men, or Satan, but ourselves that destroy our soul in hell. We all are have this intelligent knowledge of the truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 04:18 AM

I am terribly sorry my post wasn't more clear and that it led you to the wrong conclusion as to what I believe about hellfire and brimstone. I believe it is Jesus who will cast body and soul "alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." I am happy to learn you do not believe it is Satan who will do it. I cannot envision the unsaved casting themselves alive into the lake of fire.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I am terribly sorry my post wasn't more clear and that it led you to the wrong conclusion as to what I believe about hellfire and brimstone. I believe it is Jesus who will cast body and soul "alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." I am happy to learn you do not believe it is Satan who will do it. I cannot envision the unsaved casting themselves alive into the lake of fire.


MM - do the quotes of EGW mean nothing in this discussion? As she said, all need an intelligent understand of the agency by which the soul is destroyed...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 05:40 AM

APL,

We destroy our own souls by the choices we make. God destroys the souls of all sinners in justice in the end. How is that? Spiritual wisdom must be used to understand this complex riddle that a child could understand when explained to her.

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17)

We can destroy our characters, thus defiling our body temple, and making us unfit to stand in the judgment day in God's presence. His glory will destroy sinners.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-10)


The Bible tells us plainly who will destroy whom. Genesis 3:15 is where mankind was first given this message. Man does destroy himself by his choices. But God will destroy man in hell on account of those choices. There's nothing complex here, really.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 06:25 AM

Green - - you leave out EGW whom I think you believe is inspired where she clearly says, "God destroys no man". And you say, that it not true.

You leave out where she says that God is not the executioner, but you say He is.

You leave out where she says, "Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings".

The truth is simple that even a child can understand it.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 08:31 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green - - you leave out EGW whom I think you believe is inspired where she clearly says, "God destroys no man". And you say, that it not true.

You leave out where she says that God is not the executioner, but you say He is.

You leave out where she says, "Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings".

The truth is simple that even a child can understand it.


Just because I understand those passages differently from you, does not mean I leave them out or "reject" them. I look at them within their proper context. You pull them out of their context and apply them where they were never meant to be applied. I have a way of understanding those passages that fits with the rest of inspiration. You don't. Your view cannot accept passages that say clearly God punishes and/or destroys. For example, you have little that can be said to justify your position in light of the following passage, and yet you tenaciously hold to your weak claims that God punishes by withdrawing His protection. I suppose it does not matter how God punishes--after all, that's up to Him. But He does punish, which is the answer to this thread's question. See below.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}


I will not be the one to say God will not do what God says He will do. You are very brave to say such. I'm not that brave.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Green
I will not be the one to say God will not do what God says He will do.
But you have...

...the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.
{GC 589.2}

God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. {RH, February 17, 1891 par. 2}

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green
I will not be the one to say God will not do what God says He will do.
But you have...

...the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.
{GC 589.2}

God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. {RH, February 17, 1891 par. 2}

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

No. I have not said God will not do those things. Again, you misrepresent my view. Would you be so kind as to tell me where I said He would not withdraw His protection? The problem is context. In one context, God will merely withdraw His protection. Mrs. White never once says this will be His manner of destroying sinners in hell. Please show me where she does say this about hell, if you would be so kind as to help me see the support for your view.

Jesus will not work with us always in the same manner. One time He may plead with us, one time He may ignore or reject our request, to test us. Saying He will do one of these does not preclude the other option. So it is with His manner of destruction. He uses varied ways. The particular group that Mrs. White referred to in saying God would withdraw His protection from them in order to destroy them is all a pre-probation's-close people. After probation closes, His manner will not be the same. This will be clear to those who open their minds to the Holy Spirit as they read and study the issue.

Mrs. White is clear in maintaining BOTH the "withdraw and permit" and the "command destruction" principles by which God destroys. He uses both methods. This, however, is a statement that cannot be made to fit in your view, and you have no answer for it. You've seen it umpteen times, but here it is again.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}


I would ask you, APL, "Do you believe GC 614.2 is an inspired statement, and that it is true?" If so, I would also ask how commanding holy angels to destroy is the same as to withdraw and permit?

Sending an angel to destroy does not equal withdrawal from the scene so that Satan can do his work.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 04:48 PM

Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


HOW do the 4 angels have power to hurt? By withdrawing.

The judgments of God do not come out directly from the Lord, "but in this way", He withdraws.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods.

God’s anger is activated by the free moral agent in the freedom of choice exercised in the wrong direction. They have rejected God and God honors that choice and withdraws Himself from the role of Protector and Sustainer. Then the other gods, which are no gods, come in to fill the role of God. The result is that “many evils and troubles” come to them and they are “devoured.” It is not God that devours, but the evils and troubles that befall them because God is not in the picture. So, the fundamental difference between the wrath of man and the wrath of God is that for man to destroy He must actively do something. For God to destroy He must passively abandon His position. James says that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God (James 1:20). They are totally different modalities. Gods thoughts and ways are as far apart as the heavens and the earth, says Isaiah (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Here is another Biblical statement of how the wrath of God functions, found in Isaiah 57:17. I will spell it out by organizing it according to its chiastic structure, often seen in Hebrew poetry. We can readily decode meaning when we do this:

A. For the iniquity of his covetousness
---B. was I wroth,
------C. and smote him:
------C'. I hid me,
---B'. and was wroth,
A'. and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.

Notice how the corresponding "C" lines show the "smiting" as the "hiding."

God's destruction is when He lets us have our own way.

Remember the fiery serpents? HOW did God send the fiery serpents?

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 2}

The Lord had fed them with the bread of heaven, even with angels' food; and yet they murmured against him. By his power he had held in check the wild beasts of the forests, and the reptiles of the wilderness, so that they had not hurt his people; but now he removed his restraining hand, and let the poisonous serpents do as they would have done all along the way had the Lord not restrained them. The real trouble that now came upon them served to bring them to their senses, and to awaken their paralyzed thoughts as to what course to pursue. "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. . . . {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 3}

Note when the "real trouble" came, when God removed the restraint. The hermeneutic is ever the same. Sin is always the problem, not God.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 06:56 PM

The problem with your view, APL, is that you see it as a "problem" to destroy sin and sinners in the end. God, and the righteous universe, will see it as a "solution," and a righteous act.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM - do the quotes of EGW mean nothing in this discussion? As she said, all need an intelligent understand of the agency by which the soul is destroyed...

Yes, they matter very much. It's just that we understand the quotes differently, which, fortunately, we are free to do. I realize you choose to believe, based on your extensive study, sinners will destroy themselves in a symbolic lake of fire. If memory serves, you believe the lake of fire symbolizes the "sea of glass". How do you envision sinners destroying themselves in the "sea of glass"?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
. . . [some] see it as a "problem" to destroy sin and sinners in the end. God, and the righteous universe, will see it as a "solution," and a righteous act.

Well said.

Quote:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

It's difficult to imagine holy angels praising Jesus for the work of evil angels.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:40 PM

After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the more deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father. {DA 758.4}

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.
{DA 759.1}

God prinicples are not of what order? The use of force. Satan and sinners will perish. This is the end result of sin. When they do, the universe will know that God's ways are just.

In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3, 4. {DA 58.1}

---

The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question. {GC 498.3}

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.
{GC 499.1}

What is the nature and terrible result of sin? Execution by God? NO. It is death. Sin when it is full grown, brings death, James 1:15.

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}

Through the plan of salvation, a larger purpose is to be wrought out even than the salvation of man and the redemption of the earth. Through the revelation of the character of God in Christ, the beneficence of the divine government will be manifested before the universe, the charge of Satan against God refuted, the nature and result of sin made plain, and the perpetuity of the law fully demonstrated. Satan had declared that the law of God was faulty, and that the good of the universe demanded a change in its requirements. In attacking the law, he thought to overthrow the authority of its Author, and gain for himself the supreme allegiance. But through the plan of salvation, the precepts of the law were to be proved perfect and immutable, that at last one tide of glory and love might go up throughout the universe, ascribing glory and honour and praise to Him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever. {BEcho, July 15, 1893 par. 3}

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

Death is the result of SIN, not God.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - do the quotes of EGW mean nothing in this discussion? As she said, all need an intelligent understand of the agency by which the soul is destroyed...

Yes, they matter very much. It's just that we understand the quotes differently, which, fortunately, we are free to do. I realize you choose to believe, based on your extensive study, sinners will destroy themselves in a symbolic lake of fire. If memory serves, you believe the lake of fire symbolizes the "sea of glass". How do you envision sinners destroying themselves in the "sea of glass"?

Please state your position in a succinct manner. Thank you.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The problem with your view, APL, is that you see it as a "problem" to destroy sin and sinners in the end. God, and the righteous universe, will see it as a "solution," and a righteous act.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
The problem with your view is that it is not the truth. Sinner do die, they are destroyed in the end. The question is the how that happens. You view makes God the problem not sin. But sin is the problem because it destroys, sin causes sickness, striff, and ultimately death. God is not the source of death. God is the source of life. "God destroys no man". There is no exception clause.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:58 PM

If all the EGW quotes were looked at together, a complete picture would be seen that shows that God does both; withdrawing His protection and destroying those who have rejected Him.

Just a reminder that there are only another 4 pages before this part 3 thread is permanently closed.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - do the quotes of EGW mean nothing in this discussion? As she said, all need an intelligent understand of the agency by which the soul is destroyed...

Yes, they matter very much. It's just that we understand the quotes differently, which, fortunately, we are free to do. I realize you choose to believe, based on your extensive study, sinners will destroy themselves in a symbolic lake of fire. If memory serves, you believe the lake of fire symbolizes the "sea of glass". How do you envision sinners destroying themselves in the "sea of glass"?

Please state your position in a succinct manner. Thank you.

Did I ever say a symbolic lake of fire? I do not recall such a statement. But then, I'm not the only one here with faulty memory, right Green?

Ezekiel 28:17-19
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.
18 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.

Isaiah 13:8
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travails: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

MM - Listen to the following series of lectures and see if you have the same view afterwards. Four Readings from the Book of Transparency By Sigve Tonstad
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: daryl
If all the EGW quotes were looked at together, a complete picture would be seen that shows that God does both; withdrawing His protection and destroying those who have rejected Him.
The destruction from from the giving up, the letting go, the withdrawal (== God's wrath). There is no other way to reconcile the "God Destroys No Man" quote if God actively destroys.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/29/14 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: daryl
Just a reminder that there are only another 4 pages before this part 3 thread is permanently closed.
The pages are arbitrary. I see only 10 pages in this thread. This is easy to change in "Member Control Panel" under the "Edit Preferences" and changing the default setting of the "Total posts to show on one page when viewing a post in flat mode: (default is 10)" to 99.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 06:37 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Did I ever say a symbolic lake of fire? I do not recall such a statement. . . Listen to the following series of lectures and see if you have the same view afterwards.

I wish I had the time listen to the lectures but I don't. It would be greatly appreciated if you summarized your view of the lake of fire and how sinners will destroy themselves in it. Thank you.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Green, why did the KJV not capitalize "him" in Matthew 10:28?


Originally Posted By: APL
Oh I know which text you posted. I know which version you posted. But what you did was take the modern version's interpretation of the verse. The KJV did not capitalize the word because it did not imply that it was God, but you do!


The KJV never capitalizes pronouns for God, Jesus, etc....ever. It was not customary at the time the KJV was published to do this. The only times when the "he," "him," or "his" for God is capitalized in the KJV are the times when the grammar requires such, i.e. when the word is at the beginning of a sentence.

But Green, you did. Why did you capitalize "Him" in your mind? What justification do you have?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
The pages are arbitrary. I see only 10 pages in this thread. This is easy to change in "Member Control Panel" under the "Edit Preferences" and changing the default setting of the "Total posts to show on one page when viewing a post in flat mode: (default is 10)" to 99.
Originally Posted By: daryl
Just a reminder that there are only another 4 pages before this part 3 thread is permanently closed.
Only 4 more? I thought you said up to 99 pages. APL is incorrect. It is not page 10, but page 48 showing on my screen.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Did I ever say a symbolic lake of fire? I do not recall such a statement. . . Listen to the following series of lectures and see if you have the same view afterwards.

I wish I had the time listen to the lectures but I don't. It would be greatly appreciated if you summarized your view of the lake of fire and how sinners will destroy themselves in it. Thank you.
My testimony has been ineffectual on you. IF you want to learn, then listen. IF not, then so be it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
The pages are arbitrary. I see only 10 pages in this thread. This is easy to change in "Member Control Panel" under the "Edit Preferences" and changing the default setting of the "Total posts to show on one page when viewing a post in flat mode: (default is 10)" to 99.
Originally Posted By: daryl
Just a reminder that there are only another 4 pages before this part 3 thread is permanently closed.
Only 4 more? I thought you said up to 99 pages. APL is incorrect. It is not page 10, but page 48 showing on my screen.
kland - did you change your default settings to 99 messages per page? If not, then of course, YOU will see more pages, but not me. Change the setting and see.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
But Green, you did. Why did you capitalize "Him" in your mind? What justification do you have?
EXACTLY!!! The KJV leaves it up to interpretation. The newer versions do NOT. THAT is the point. What say ye Green?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
My testimony has been ineffectual on you. IF you want to learn, then listen. IF not, then so be it.

Too bad. I was hoping you would finish your testimony. You have not explained how sinners will destroy themselves in the lake of fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 06/30/14 11:54 PM

Ellen White capitalized the word "Him". She believes it refers to God. I trust her insight.

Quote:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}

To the transgressor it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God; but Moses stood alone in the presence of the Eternal One, and he was not afraid; for his soul was in harmony with the will of his Maker. {PP 329.1}

Quote:
That Lamb whose wrath will be so terrible to the scorners of His grace will be grace and righteousness and love and blessing to all who have received Him. The pillar of cloud that was dark with terror and avenging wrath to the Egyptians, was to the people of God a pillar of fire for brightness. So will it be to the Lord's people in these last days. The light and glory of God to His commandment-keeping people are darkness to the unbelieving. They see that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The arm, long stretched, strong to save all who come unto Him, is strong to execute His judgment upon all who would not come unto Him that they might have life. God grant that while mercy still lingers, while the voice of invitation is still heard, there will be a turning unto the Lord. The sure provision has been made to shelter every soul and shield those who have kept His commandments until the indignation be overpast. {TMK 356.4}

"He that despised Moses" law [which was the law of God] died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" [Hebrews 10:28-31]. --Letter 35, 1898. {19MR 177.2}

The sinners in Zion should be afraid, in a time when they do not expect it, sudden destruction will surely come upon all who are at ease. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 10}

And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1} (Note that the word "Him" is capitalized).
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 12:34 AM

Originally Posted By: mm
And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1} (Note that the word "Him" is capitalized).

The plagues of God - is God that one that causes the 7 last plagues? How? For what purpose? HINT - the series by Tonstad answers these questions, but I know you have no time. Too bad.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 03:55 AM

I use all the research time I have on the Bible and the SOP - which is why I don't have time for Tonstad. It would help if you explained the lake of fire and how sinners destroy themselves in it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 03:58 AM

Too bad it doesn't read -

And the plagues of Satan are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from hell. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? Satan causes them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before him. {11MR 355.1} (Note that the word "him" is lower case).
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 04:27 AM

Tonstad uses the Bible and EGW for his conclusions. You don't have time, but you have time to post here. The Bible means what it means. What is the book of Revelation revealing? Who is the active subject in the Book of Revelation? The usual view is God, as you believe. Consider this from the seals:
Revelation 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Is this God or Demonic? This is demonic activity, not God. Who is the acting subject in the plagues? GOD??? NO! The Plagues are a removing of restraint by God! Consider EGW: I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan’s decided attacks upon them. Ellen G. White, {Last Day Events, 242}

The Plagues of God, is the Wrath of God and what is the Wrath of God? His removing His restraining mercy, read Romans 1.

You view MM on the plagues is just as Satan would have it, believing the our Father is the one that causes affection. Again EGW: Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
1) Tonstad uses the Bible and EGW for his conclusions. You don't have time, but you have time to post here.

2) Is this God or Demonic? This is demonic activity, not God. Who is the acting subject in the plagues? GOD??? NO! The Plagues are a removing of restraint by God!

3) The Plagues of God, is the Wrath of God and what is the Wrath of God? His removing His restraining mercy, read Romans 1.

4) You view MM on the plagues is just as Satan would have it, believing the our Father is the one that causes affection.

1) I was referring to "my research time" - not time in general. I have time to study with other people.

2) Yes, there are times when Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. "God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {PC 136.3}

3) Yes, there are times when Jesus employs the forces of nature to punish the impenitent. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 11}

4) Yes, there are times when Jesus permits evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to punish the impenitent. However, nature is not self-acting. The forces of nature are dependent upon Jesus, not evil angels, to act. "Nature is not self-acting; it is the servant of its Creator. God does not annul His laws nor work contrary to them; but He is continually using them as His instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above its laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” {BLJ 241.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 06:05 PM

APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 06:06 PM

PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
Does the story of Job put God in bad light?
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ellen White capitalized the word "Him". She believes it refers to God. I trust her insight.

'Ellen White DID NOT capitalize the word "Him". She believes it DOES NOT refer to God. I trust her insight. '

Quote:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." We are not to think that we can have an easy time. But "what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" We shall have respect unto the recompense of the reward, and esteem the reproaches of Christ greater riches than the treasures of this world. The fear of God should ever be before our eyes, in all our business transactions, in all the concerns of life. We cannot engage in unnecessary traffic with unbelievers without becoming like them in spirit; for by beholding, we become changed. As followers of Christ, we cannot afford to grasp for the wealth of the world. "For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich." Those who would have earthly riches at the expense of heavenly riches, sell themselves at a cheap market. A business man said to my husband, "Elder White, with such powers of mind as you possess, you should not be engaged in the work you are now doing, burying your talents in the service of the Adventists. You should occupy a position where your talent would be recognized and rewarded. I will pay you a large remuneration for your services, if you will engage yourself to me." But my husband said: "If you would heap gold upon this table as high as the ceiling, it would be no temptation to me. I am living for the immortal inheritance, for the eternal substance, for the life that measures with the life of God." If we love Jesus, we shall hold him and his service supreme, and shall desire his approval more than the applause of the whole world. We will not deny our Lord by selling ourselves to the world for any price. "Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price," even the precious blood of the Son of God. {RH, May 3, 1892 par. 7}

Quote:
Said Christ: "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 14}

Quote:
"It is enough for the disciple," said Christ, "that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, January 24, 1899 par. 10}

Quote:
In rejection of light the hearts of men are hardened, and they finally unite with the agencies of apostasy in a work of compelling the conscience of those who do not agree with them, in persecuting and putting to death those who love God and keep his commandments. But the Lord says to his chosen people: "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak; for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake; but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. . . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . . Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." {ST, June 18, 1894 par. 9}

Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 10:21 PM

kland,

Thank you for bringing this issue to light. The very fact that in many places Mrs. White did NOT capitalize the word is a testament to the fact that in her own Bible, it was not capitalized either. This means she used the good old King James Version, and quoted from it. If she happened, then, to capitalize the word in any place where she quoted from her Bible, this would be "added information" that she was giving us. Well, she did, and your accusations against Mike in the post above are baseless, unfounded, and mischaracterizing. Shall I quote your own words back to you?

"Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?"

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}


See the above quote on your own CD or HERE ONLINE at your convenience for verification.

I think you owe Mike an apology.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 10:30 PM

I think Green is evading the question. In Matthew 10:28, is the "him" in question God or not? Green says it is. Based on what from the text? There is nothing in the text to make that distinction. The new translations make it abundantly clear who they THINK the "him" refers to. Green agrees with the new translations. The KJV, just reading the text, does not necessarily mean God and in fact, reading the following verses makes it clear to me that the "him" in question is NOT God.

So who is it? It is not men. It is not Satan. It is not God. Who does that leave? EGW tells us we must have an intelligent understand as what agency is the one that destroys the soul. And she is abundantly clear in the quote I provided who that is. And it is NOT God. Who is it?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
I think Green is evading the question. In Matthew 10:28, is the "him" in question God or not? Green says it is. Based on what from the text? There is nothing in the text to make that distinction. The new translations make it abundantly clear who they THINK the "him" refers to. Green agrees with the new translations. The KJV, just reading the text, does not necessarily mean God and in fact, reading the following verses makes it clear to me that the "him" in question is NOT God.

So who is it? It is not men. It is not Satan. It is not God. Who does that leave? EGW tells us we must have an intelligent understand as what agency is the one that destroys the soul. And she is abundantly clear in the quote I provided who that is. And it is NOT God. Who is it?


So, you don't believe Mrs. White. She capitalized the "Him," making it clear Who it refers to. But, you prefer to think that you know better than she does. At least you are clear.

I have her words on the subject, which is clear to me. I don't need to argue with you or anyone else about it, because you will soon enough know the truth. Jesus' coming is near. Everyone will fear and tremble before Him. Even the righteous will be saying "who shall be able to stand?"

Who among us will be able? Solemn question.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?

"Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him." Can Satan kill himself and then cast himself into hell?

Quote:
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:3-7. {EW 28.1}

And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1}

Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?

PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

A: Does the story of Job put God in bad light?

Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/01/14 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above?


Mike,

If Mrs. White did not capitalize the "Him" for those texts, then Satan must have infected the CD, or swayed some one of her editors to do it. And if Satan or one of his agents did this, God allowed it. And if God allowed it, then it must either be true, or God doesn't mind if we are deceived about it. If it's true, then Satan just worked against himself; but if it's false, then God is not faithful to His promise to preserve His word. And if God is not faithful, then ALL is lost.

Given the above, either God is the One referred to in the texts above, or Ellen White was not a prophet. And if Ellen White was not a prophet, we will soon find the Bible has problems too. If we reject the Bible, we reject God who gave it. So, it boils down to one final question:

Will we accept that God will do what He says He will do (punish the wicked), OR reject God and His Word?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 12:41 AM

As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White. The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good.

Quote:
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The idea that Satan and sinners will kill themselves and then cast themselves in the lake of fire is hard to believe.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 01:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?

PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

A: Does the story of Job put God in bad light?

Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

Have you read the book of Job?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 01:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above?


Mike,

If Mrs. White did not capitalize the "Him" for those texts, then Satan must have infected the CD, or swayed some one of her editors to do it. And if Satan or one of his agents did this, God allowed it. And if God allowed it, then it must either be true, or God doesn't mind if we are deceived about it. If it's true, then Satan just worked against himself; but if it's false, then God is not faithful to His promise to preserve His word. And if God is not faithful, then ALL is lost.

Given the above, either God is the One referred to in the texts above, or Ellen White was not a prophet. And if Ellen White was not a prophet, we will soon find the Bible has problems too. If we reject the Bible, we reject God who gave it. So, it boils down to one final question:

Will we accept that God will do what He says He will do (punish the wicked), OR reject God and His Word?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Then according to green, EGW is not a prophet. Do note that there are editors! Those that enter text in to publications. There are 9 "hits" on the CD for this phrase: "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body". Only 6 are relavent: 4 times the "him" is not capitalized. 2 times it is. The KJV is ambiguous. We are free to interpret the verse. So what did EGW say?

All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. [yes - is it God?] It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. [it is not a decree by God!] He does not make man spiritually blind. [then who does?] God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. [God give light -and in Him is no darkness at all] But He does not force man to receive truth. [love me, or I will kill you - makes no sense] He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil.[choose wisely says Green and MM - for God will destroy you if you choose wrong] If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. [Get that??? It is OUR CHOICES that make the difference] The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. [destruction of the soul] By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. [there is a warning we should heed!] {2SAT 183.4}


God destroys no man. All who are destroyed will have destroyed themselves...


God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. [the destruction is when? the end, the judgment] Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. [yes- the destruction of the soul - and it is US that is doing it] By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

God is not the destroyer. And for Green, God is not even "A destroyer". God is the creator and the restorer, if you choose Him.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 01:31 AM

Did you get this???
His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. DID MEN BUT REALIZE THIS, THEY WOULD BE CAREFUL WHAT SEED THEY SOW. {COL 84.4}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White. The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good.

Quote:
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The idea that Satan and sinners will kill themselves and then cast themselves in the lake of fire is hard to believe.


And God sent fiery serpents to bite the children of Israel. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BIBLE IS WRITTEN. The Bible means what it means, not what it says.

MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO????
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 05:03 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

A: Have you read the book of Job?

What do you believe?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

A: Have you read the book of Job?

What do you believe?
If you have read the book of Job, you would know the answer to your question.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 05:09 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO????

Yes. Now your turn. Did God send the Flood and Fire? Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

A: Have you read the book of Job?

M: What do you believe?

A: If you have read the book of Job, you would know the answer to your question.

Were innocent women and children murdered when Jesus gave evil angels permission to afflict Job? I cannot discern from the Bible what you believe. I need you to tell me what you think the Bible says about it.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 05:26 AM

I believe what the Book of Job says. But in the spirit of Green, define innocent.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO????

Yes. Now your turn. Did God send the Flood and Fire? Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}


God uses the same mechanism as with the FIERY serpents.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:43 AM

For MM:
HERE
and
HERE
That is, if you have time.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO????

Yes.


Now you have a problem. EGW does not agree with you.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 04:28 PM

Daryl, I would like to make a summary post for this thread if I get a chance, but I am booked solid for the next several days and don't have time to prepare it. If this thread reaches the limit before I get to it, I may edit this post to include the summary.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Daryl, I would like to make a summary post for this thread if I get a chance, but I am booked solid for the next several days and don't have time to prepare it. If this thread reaches the limit before I get to it, I may edit this post to include the summary.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


There is no question that sinners receive punishment for sin. THE question is how is God involved. Green has been abundantly clear that the punishment of God is by direct action. He has been abundantly clear that God is "a" destroyer. But God is not the problem, SIN is the problem. Christ came to save men from their sins, not save them from what God was going to do to them.

What can we not accept the testimony of Jesus about His Father?


{From ST, January 20, 1890}
Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature.

The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be....

That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery. He whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, whose dominion endureth throughout all generations, made himself to be sin for us that he might lift up all that are bowed down, and give life to those who are ready to perish. .

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! ... Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.



And what character is that? One that will punish, torture and kill those that do not love Him? This is giving the Father the character of Satan. The Father as revealed in Christ is altogether different from what Satan has represented Him to be, arbitrary, vengeful, unforgiving, exacting and severe. I ask, who on this thread has represented God as exacting? Who has represented God a severe? Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:37 PM

Green, while it would be entertaining, one would not expect your so suggested summary to reflect much reality. But one would expect it to reflect your opinion.
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?

"Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him." Can Satan kill himself and then cast himself into hell?

Quote:
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:3-7. {EW 28.1}

And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1}

Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above?
MM, I didn't ask you if what you thought whether something seems feasible to you. I was addressing whether Ellen White capitalized or DID NOT capitalize the word "Him" in the verse and asking you about your selectivity or inadequacy. And Green evaded the whole issue. And then suggested that any time Ellen White's statements don't agree with his opinion, then they have been tampered with. If you follow his line of thoughts, you will place yourself on shaky ground.


'Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White DID NOT capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages I posted above?'
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White.
Do you?

Or do you selectively take God at His word?

Who killed Saul? What does the Bible say?

Quote:

The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good.

Do you trust He is holy, just, and good, or whatever He does you call it holy, just, and good? Do you understand the difference? If someone believed satan was God returning to the earth, and they saw him killing those who disagreed with him, but they believe he is God, then they just call the acts they are seeing holy, just, and good. Is that what you are doing, based upon what you think you are seeing? Or have you considered that maybe you are seeing things incorrectly?

Who killed Saul?

Quote:
{From ST, January 20, 1890}
Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance.
MM, in what ways has satan caused APL, myself, and others to lose the true views of God's character? What is it that is becoming extinct in the earth? What is the error that mingling with the truth?

In what way are we representing God as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary.

In what way are we placing attributes that belong to the character of Satan as belonging to the character of God?

In what way are we saying the Father is an altogether different being as revealed in Christ?


Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 06:57 PM

Great questions kland! What knowledge has become nearly extinct on the earth? Perhaps Green can include that in his summary.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Did God send the Flood and Fire? Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}


A: God uses the same mechanism as with the FIERY serpents.

Not sure how snakes and water and fire operate the same way. How did Jesus employ water and fire to punish sinners?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
I believe what the Book of Job says. But in the spirit of Green, define innocent.

Job was innocent. Were his children innocent?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Now you have a problem. EGW does not agree with you.

Jesus permitted the snakes to bite specific Jews and not the others.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
I believe what the Book of Job says. But in the spirit of Green, define innocent.

Job was innocent. Were his children innocent?
NOW you're thinking like Green. Was Job a sinner or not? Where his children? Did his children deserve death more that anyone else?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Now you have a problem. EGW does not agree with you.

Jesus permitted the snakes to bite specific Jews and not the others.
"not the others". What others?
Did God sent the fiery serpents? Nope.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
For MM:
HERE
and
HERE
That is, if you have time.

The links access the same page. No problem. Perhaps you don't know this about me - I believe Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels.

How do you feel about Jesus withdrawing and permitting men and angels to afflict and kill impenitent sinners? Would you prefer it if He allowed sin to run its natural course instead? For example, let their sinful lifestyle choices end their lives naturally (i.e. accident, cancer, heart disease, etc) instead of commanding men and/or angels to kill them prematurely.

How do you feel about Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be afflicted and killed? For example, drunk drivers who kill people for reasons unrelated to any sins they may be guilty of (i.e. telling a white lie does not naturally result in dying at the hands of a drunk driver [as opposed to excessive drinking naturally results in cirrhosis of the liver]).
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
NOW you're thinking like Green. Was Job a sinner or not? Where his children? Did his children deserve death more that anyone else?

Thank you for the compliment. However, I'm not thinking like any of the great thinkers here. I am merely seeking to learn what you believe - a task proving to be elusive. Please explain to me how the story of Job supports your view of the lake of fire and how sinners will destroy themselves in it. Thank you. Please don't try to use the Socratic method of leading me to your conclusions. I would much prefer it if you would simply summarize your thoughts in a succinct manner. I have no idea what you believe about the lake of fire. I have no idea how you envision sinners destroying themselves in it.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus permitted the snakes to bite specific Jews and not the others.

A: "not the others". What others? Did God sent the fiery serpents? Nope.

The snakes were in the area. Jesus commanded them to bite specific Jews and not to bite other specific Jews. He sent them on a errand. They obeyed.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus permitted the snakes to bite specific Jews and not the others.

A: "not the others". What others? Did God sent the fiery serpents? Nope.

The snakes were in the area. Jesus commanded them to bite specific Jews and not to bite other specific Jews. He sent them on a errand. They obeyed.
Of course you can back that up with scripture and EGW... Nope... Sheesh.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 09:41 PM

MM - - <APL>

The links access the same page. No problem.
<ah - different parts of the thread - but that's ok> Perhaps you don't know this about me - I believe Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels. <you also have said that God causes sickness, disease and death>

How do you feel about Jesus withdrawing and permitting men and angels to afflict and kill impenitent sinners? Would you prefer it if He allowed sin to run its natural course instead?
<ah MM - IT IS THE SAME THING> For example, let their sinful lifestyle choices end their lives naturally (i.e. accident, cancer, heart disease, etc) instead of commanding men and/or angels to kill them prematurely.

How do you feel about Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be afflicted and killed? For example, drunk drivers who kill people for reasons unrelated to any sins they may be guilty of (i.e. telling a white lie does not naturally result in dying at the hands of a drunk driver [as opposed to excessive drinking naturally results in cirrhosis of the liver]).
<Do you believe in free choice? Could God have prevented the death of men, women and children by a drunk driver? What would it have taken? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Prevent the sale of intoxicants? Prevent the transport of said intoxicants? Prevent the brewing of them? Prevent the growing of the raw ingredients? Prevent the sale of farming equipment that is used in the growing of the them? How far do you want to go? It is sin all along the way that is the problem. Sin that causes greed and selfishness. Sin is destructive to all that it touches. Sin is the problem that needs to be dealt with. God does not force the sinner, the use of force is not a principle of God's government. This is the great controversy!>

EGW: From {RH September 7, 1897 - Article titled: The Great Controversy}
It was most difficult to make the deceiving power of Satan apparent. ... As one in holy office, he <Satan> manifested an overbearing desire for justice, but it was a counterfeit of justice, which was entirely contrary to God's love and compassion and mercy. ... Many place such confidence in their own ideas that they present their theories as if they could make no mistake. ... How can these deluded ones think that they are the only ones led and taught of God? When this spirit is manifested, what can be done? You cannot convince them, because they say, "God has led me." ...

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth.
But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All <ALL> the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation.

They must accept God's principles, and, through the presentation of truth and righteousness, convince all who were in his service. This was the only power to be used. Force must never come in. ... Nothing is to be done by compulsion. ... But when those who profess to be in God's service resort to accusation, they are adopting Satan's principles to cast out Satan; and this never will work. ... The principles of righteousness expressed in God's law must be demonstrated as unchangeable, perfect, eternal. ...

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed a character entirely opposite to that of Satan. ... By causing the death of the Sovereign of heaven, Satan defeated his own purpose. The death of the Son of God made the death of Satan unavoidable. He was allowed to go on until his administration was laid open before the worlds unfallen and before the heavenly universe. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he uprooted himself from the affections of the unfallen beings. He was seen by all to be a liar, a thief, and a murderer.

Today Satan is working upon human minds by his crooked principles. These will be adopted and acted upon by some who claim to be loyal and true to God's government. How shall we know that they are disloyal and untrue?--"By their fruits ye shall know them." God does not force any one. He leaves all free to choose.

Individually, we are deciding our eternal destiny, <we are the ones that destroy our souls in hell> deciding whether we shall enjoy the highest honor that can be given to man, even an eternal weight of glory, or be ranked with Satan by possessing his character, by dishonoring God because we profess to be Christians while misrepresenting Christ. Those who choose to reveal the character of the arch-deceiver identify themselves with him beyond the possibility of a change, because they choose not to see themselves as wrong. This was the course that Satan pursued.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: The snakes were in the area. Jesus commanded them to bite specific Jews and not to bite other specific Jews. He sent them on a errand. They obeyed.

A: Of course you can back that up with scripture and EGW.

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord permitted fiery serpents to bite them. {1SP 315.1}

The Lord had hitherto preserved his people from the attacks of these creatures, but he now removed from them his restraining power, that Israel might realize their ingratitude to God, and be led to repentance and humiliation before him. {ST, October 28, 1880 par. 3}

If the people still complained, with all these tokens of his love, the Lord would continue to send judgments upon them, until they should appreciate his merciful care. {ST, October 28, 1880 par. 4}

Their murmuring was a constant offense to God. He saw that they had thrown off all fear of Him, and He permitted fiery serpents to attack them, that they might realize how in the past His power had guarded them from untold dangers. {14MR 345.2}

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart. Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {19MR 281.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 10:20 PM

The snakes obeyed the will of God and bit the Jews.

This earth is the Lord's. Here it may be seen that nature, animate and inanimate, obeys His will. {5T 311.4}

God requires the service of all his creatures. Everything in nature obeys his will. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 11}

There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work. In this men do not know what they are talking about. Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

The God of nature is perpetually at work. His infinite power works unseen, but manifestations appear in the effects which the work produces. The same God who guides the planets works in the fruit orchard and in the vegetable garden. He never made a thorn, a thistle, or a tare. These are Satan's work, the result of degeneration, introduced by him among the precious things; but it is through God's immediate agency that every bud bursts into blossom. When He was in the world in the form of humanity, Christ said: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. So when the students employ their time and strength in agricultural work, in heaven it is said of them, Ye "are laborers together with God." 1 Corinthians 3:9. {6T 186.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
M: Perhaps you don't know this about me - I believe Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels.

A: You also have said that God causes sickness, disease and death.

Yes, I also believe Jesus, when He chooses to do so, personally punishes people with sickness and death. King Uzziah "was leprous in his forehead . . . because the LORD had smitten him."

Do you agree with the statement above - "Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels."

Originally Posted By: APL
M: How do you feel about Jesus withdrawing and permitting men and angels to afflict and kill impenitent sinners? Would you prefer it if He allowed sin to run its natural course instead? For example, let their sinful lifestyle choices end their lives naturally (i.e. accident, cancer, heart disease, etc) instead of commanding men and/or angels to kill them prematurely.

A: IT IS THE SAME THING

Please explain how it is the same thing. Does telling a white lie naturally result in men and/or angels killing them? What is the cause and consequence relationship?

Originally Posted By: APL
M: How do you feel about Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be afflicted and killed? For example, drunk drivers who kill people for reasons unrelated to any sins they may be guilty of (i.e. telling a white lie does not naturally result in dying at the hands of a drunk driver [as opposed to excessive drinking naturally results in cirrhosis of the liver]).

A: Do you believe in free choice? Could God have prevented the death of men, women and children by a drunk driver? What would it have taken? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Prevent the sale of intoxicants? Prevent the transport of said intoxicants? Prevent the brewing of them? Prevent the growing of the raw ingredients? Prevent the sale of farming equipment that is used in the growing of the them? How far do you want to go? It is sin all along the way that is the problem. Sin that causes greed and selfishness. Sin is destructive to all that it touches. Sin is the problem that needs to be dealt with. God does not force the sinner, the use of force is not a principle of God's government. This is the great controversy!

There are a bazillion ways Jesus can intervene and prevent death and destruction without violating freewill. You freely confess the truthfulness of this insight every time you quote - "We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. {GC 36.1} "He told them what their fate would have been had He not laid a restraining hand upon that which would have hurt them. {BLJ 66.4}

Or, do you believe Jesus is forbidden to intercede and protect innocent men, women, and children from random acts of violence? Are evil men and evil angels free to torture and kill whoever they please?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 11:09 PM

Did God create the tares and the thorns? Nope.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/02/14 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: mm
Or, do you believe Jesus is forbidden to intercede and protect innocent men, women, and children from random acts of violence?
There are times when God cannot intercede because of the freewill issue. I'd give you a good lecture on the topic, but I know your time is precious.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The snakes obeyed the will of God and bit the Jews.

This earth is the Lord's. Here it may be seen that nature, animate and inanimate, obeys His will. {5T 311.4}

God requires the service of all his creatures. Everything in nature obeys his will. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 11}

There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work. In this men do not know what they are talking about. Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

The God of nature is perpetually at work. His infinite power works unseen, but manifestations appear in the effects which the work produces. The same God who guides the planets works in the fruit orchard and in the vegetable garden. He never made a thorn, a thistle, or a tare. These are Satan's work, the result of degeneration, introduced by him among the precious things; but it is through God's immediate agency that every bud bursts into blossom. When He was in the world in the form of humanity, Christ said: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. So when the students employ their time and strength in agricultural work, in heaven it is said of them, Ye "are laborers together with God." 1 Corinthians 3:9. {6T 186.2}


God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures.
{PP 429.1}

Now there was terror and confusion throughout the encampment. In almost every tent were the dying or the dead. None were secure. Often the silence of night was broken by piercing cries that told of fresh victims. All were busy in ministering to the sufferers, or with agonizing care endeavoring to protect those who were not yet stricken. No murmuring now escaped their lips. When compared with the present suffering, their former difficulties and trials seemed unworthy of a thought.
{PP 429.2}

The people now humbled themselves before God. They came to Moses with their confessions and entreaties. "We have sinned," they said, "for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee." Only a little before, they had accused him of being their worst enemy, the cause of all their distress and afflictions. But even when the words were upon their lips, they knew that the charge was false; and as soon as real trouble came they fled to him as the only one who could intercede with God for them. "Pray unto the Lord," was their cry, "that He take away the serpents from us."
{PP 429.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 12:34 AM

MM: yes, I also believe Jesus, when He chooses to do so, personally punishes people with sickness and death.

EGW: for all sickness is the result of transgression. <sin> {CH 37.3}

sickness, disease, death is all caused by sin. God does not personally inflict any one. But he will withdraw His protection when we demand it. Just as He did with the fiery serpents. The Lord delights in mercy; and for the sake of a few who really serve Him, He restrains calamities and prolongs the tranquillity of multitudes. Little do sinners against God realize that they are indebted for their own lives to the faithful few whom they delight to ridicule and oppress. {GC 631.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 02:14 AM

APL, you seem to be okay with Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be killed. Freewill is a powerful force - not even Jesus can prevent random acts of violence.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you seem to be okay with Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be killed. Freewill is a powerful force - not even Jesus can prevent random acts of violence.


Men on whom devolve grave responsibilities in safeguarding their fellow men from accident and harm, are often untrue to their trust. Because of indulgence in tobacco and liquor, they do not keep the mind clear and composed as did Daniel in the courts of Babylon. They becloud the brain by using stimulating narcotics, and temporarily lose their reasoning faculties. Many a shipwreck upon the high seas can be traced to liquor drinking. Time and again have unseen angels protected vessels on the broad ocean because on board there were some praying passengers who had faith in God's keeping power. <why were they protected?> The Lord has power to hold in abeyance the angry waves so impatient to destroy and engulf His children. {19MR 280.2}

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart.
Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction <destruction comes from the Evil one, not God!> that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {19MR 281.1}

How often have those in danger of being destroyed by terrible outbreakings of winds and waters been mercifully shielded from harm! Do we realize that we have been spared from destruction only because of the protecting care of unseen agencies? Although many ships have gone down and many men and women on board have perished, God has mercifully spared His people.
But we should not be surprised if some of those who love and fear God were to be engulfed in the tempestuous waters of the ocean. <some God fearing people will be taken in the temptest> They would sleep until the Lifegiver comes to give them life. We are not to cast one word of reflection upon God or upon His manner of working. <God is not the destroyer - SIN is the problem> {19MR 281.2}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 05:55 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
There is no question that sinners receive punishment for sin. THE question is how is God involved. Green has been abundantly clear that the punishment of God is by direct action. He has been abundantly clear that God is "a" destroyer. But God is not the problem, SIN is the problem. Christ came to save men from their sins, not save them from what God was going to do to them.


APL, you are incapable of grasping the truth as long as you adhere so stringently to your definitions which are too narrow. You would think that God is a hater (maybe even "the" hater) because He hates sin. You would think that God is a destroyer (maybe even "the" destroyer) because He has destroyed. You would think God is a/the punisher because He punishes. You would think God is "the" jealous one, because He says He is Jealous. You would consider God is a/the meat eater, because Jesus ate fish. You would think God is many things that He isn't, just because He's ever done it once.

The Bible is not to be interpreted as you do. You wrest the scriptures to make them teach things that they never said. God is not a meat eater. But God has eaten meat. God is not a destroyer, but He has and will destroy. I don't know how to explain these things to one who is so closed toward the broad and balanced truths of the Word of God. When prideful opinion puts blinders upon the eyes to make them see only what is wont to be seen, how can anyone assist in taking the blinders off?

God inspired Mrs. White to tell us more about God. The Bible and Mrs. White are both clear that sinners will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. When that happens, I think your eyes will see what you have refused to see hitherto, and perhaps only then. Unfortunately, that will be too late to affect your eternal destiny. May God open your eyes to see before it's too late is my prayer.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 07:14 AM

GREEN <> APL

APL, you are incapable of grasping the truth as long as you adhere so stringently to your definitions which are too narrow. You would think that God is a hater (maybe even "the" hater) because He hates sin.
<sounds like you are defining yourself> You would think that God is a destroyer (maybe even "the" destroyer) because He has destroyed. <you think God is "a" destroyer. God destroys NO man> You would think God is a/the punisher because He punishes. <You think God is the one who executes pusnishment, but the judgments of God do not come directly from Him, but he leave the those that reject Him to themselves to reap that which they have sown> You would think God is "the" jealous one, because He says He is Jealous. You would consider God is a/the meat eater, because Jesus ate fish. You would think God is many things that He isn't, just because He's ever done it once.

The Bible is not to be interpreted as you do. You wrest the scriptures to make them teach things that they never said. God is not a meat eater. But God has eaten meat. God is not a destroyer, but He has and will destroy. I don't know how to explain these things to one who is so closed toward the broad and balanced truths of the Word of God.
<You can't explain it because you won't see it. You are rejecting the truth as it is in Jesus> When prideful opinion puts blinders upon the eyes to make them see only what is wont to be seen, how can anyone assist in taking the blinders off? <DO take the blinders off and see God as revealed by Jesus!>

God inspired Mrs. White to tell us more about God. The Bible and Mrs. White are both clear that sinners will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. When that happens, I think your eyes will see what you have refused to see hitherto, and perhaps only then. Unfortunately, that will be too late to affect your eternal destiny. May God open your eyes to see before it's too late is my prayer.
< you are right - I don't see God as you see Him, that it clear. Look to the LAMB. The truth is that I know that sinners will die. Sin will be irradicated. What you don't like is the method God uses to do this. You can't believe that force is not part of God's government. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. That really seems to irk you. Why???>
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 07:41 AM

APL,

I noticed you didn't deny that God is a meat eater. Your reasoning of "if God has ever done something, it makes Him have said identity" forces the conclusion that you believe God is a meat-eater. It is this same unbalanced form of logic, which is not true to reality, nor to the Scriptures, which forces you to reject the fact that God has ever or will ever punish sinners. The discussion of this thread, so far as you're concerned, has been in vain.

I'm truly sorry. Enjoy your meat-eating God. My God is not a meat-eater. I am able to distinguish between acts of God which He does of necessity, not of desire, and the character of God which is behind those actions. Why did God eat meat? Why does He punish? The answer to both of those questions is more closely related than you may understand or admit. A single or occasional act does not force an identity all to one side. Such "all or none" thinking is unbalanced, and irresponsible in terms of understanding Scripture.

God has, does, and will punish. He says so Himself. Mrs. White asks the question regarding this very thing "Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" She predicted that people would come teaching what you have been teaching here, APL. You are a fulfillment of prophecy.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:08 AM

How does God punish? You say, by direct action. Yes EGW you can claim to believe says, "God destroys no man". She is speaking of direct action. "the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them"

She says, "Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same." Teaching contrary to the 10C is rebelling against the law of God, and this includes the 6th. Sinner die, they die because of sin, sin pays it wage.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:30 AM

APL,

You put words in my mouth, and in Mrs. White's mouth, that do not belong. Mrs. White, like the Bible, must be interpreted properly. She does say "God destroys no man." She also says things like "God destroyed the people with the waters of a great flood, and rained fire and death upon the wicked cities; but the great adversary was still free to pursue his scheme of demoralization." And... "This rainbow was to evidence the fact to all generations that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood, because of their great wickedness."

But you cannot accept the truth of those passages. You have to wrest them to say things that they never were intended to mean.

My personal view? I believe God is "actively withdrawing His own presence" in order that we are NOT destroyed/consumed as in a moment by His wrath. There will come a time when He will cease His withdrawal, and release His glory. Then, sin and sinners will be consumed. God is waiting, with longing desire, for us to repent of our sinfulness before He must do this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:33 AM

I'll summarize some more points of this discussion later, when I have time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:49 AM

Green <> APL

You put words in my mouth, and in Mrs. White's mouth, that do not belong. Mrs. White, like the Bible, must be interpreted properly. She does say "God destroys no man." She also says things like "God destroyed the people with the waters of a great flood, and rained fire and death upon the wicked cities; but the great adversary was still free to pursue his scheme of demoralization." And... "This rainbow was to evidence the fact to all generations that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood, because of their great wickedness."

But you cannot accept the truth of those passages.
<you can't accept the fact that sin is what causes destruction, not God. When men pass divine forbearance, God withdraws and lets the natural consequences of sin go forth> You have to wrest them to say things that they never were intended to mean. <actually one has to do mental gymnastics to that God is the destroyer when He destroys no man. Men are destroyed, but how is God involved?>

My personal view?
<personal view of the SOP/Biblical view? When taken as a whole, the Bible and SOP fits what I have been saying> I believe God is "actively withdrawing His own presence" <that is an interesting twist of words - first time you used that combination> in order that we are NOT destroyed/consumed as in a moment by His wrath. <I still do not think you understand what God's wrath is, have you read Romans 1 recently?> There will come a time when He will cease His withdrawal, and release His glory. Then, sin and sinners will be consumed. God is waiting, with longing desire, for us to repent of our sinfulness before He must do this. <before he kills us?>
Posted By: kland

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
I believe what the Book of Job says. But in the spirit of Green, define innocent.

Job was innocent. Were his children innocent?

If you think they were not, why did you say:
Quote:
Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
What women and children were you referring to?


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus permitted the snakes to bite specific Jews and not the others.

A: "not the others". What others? Did God sent the fiery serpents? Nope.

The snakes were in the area. Jesus commanded them to bite specific Jews and not to bite other specific Jews. He sent them on a errand. They obeyed.
I did not see where you supported with scripture and EGW that the snakes bit specific Jews.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Not sure how snakes and water and fire operate the same way. How did Jesus employ water and fire to punish sinners?
Would you be disagree with Ellen White saying the Father was revealed in Christ?

In what way did satan represent the Father employing water and fire to punish sinners?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:02 PM

APL, how do you justify Jesus permitting evil men and/or evil angels to murder innocent men, women, and children?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 08:03 PM

APL, you have not explained the lake of fire or how sinners will destroy themselves in it. Is the fire literal? Or, is it symbolic?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, how do you justify Jesus permitting evil men and/or evil angels to murder innocent men, women, and children?
Have you read the book of Job? What happened in the book of Job?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/03/14 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you have not explained the lake of fire or how sinners will destroy themselves in it. Is the fire literal? Or, is it symbolic?

Four Readings on the Book of Transparency
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/04/14 04:11 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, how do you justify Jesus permitting evil men and/or evil angels to murder innocent men, women, and children?
Have you read the book of Job? What happened in the book of Job?

I don't know. Please share your thoughts.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/04/14 04:28 AM

APL, your unwillingness to summarize your view of the lake of fire and how sinners will destroy themselves in it is troubling and bewildering. I am fairly certain you believe the fire is symbolic - but symbolic of what? the glory of God?
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/04/14 05:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, how do you justify Jesus permitting evil men and/or evil angels to murder innocent men, women, and children?
Have you read the book of Job? What happened in the book of Job?

I don't know. Please share your thoughts.
If you have read it, tell me what you have read.
Posted By: APL

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/04/14 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, your unwillingness to summarize your view of the lake of fire and how sinners will destroy themselves in it is troubling and bewildering. I am fairly certain you believe the fire is symbolic - but symbolic of what? the glory of God?
My testimony is worthless to you. You have the links, listen to them. A handout is included.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) - 07/04/14 04:47 PM

As this has surpassed 100 pages, this thread is now being permanently closed.

I am going to create a part 4 thread that will be used for summary posts only, therefore, limit your posts there to summary posts only.

If I see more than summary posts being posted there, I will, either remove those posts, or permanently close the part 4 thread.

Here is the link to the part 4 (Summary Posts Only) thread:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=166584&#Post166584
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