APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right?

Leviticus
24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Joshua
11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, [and] that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

1 Samuel
15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

The Hebrew people living in that time did not consider such killing to be murder and a violation of the Commandment.

The people did not consider divorce adultery!

Maybe this is because divorce isn't adultery?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There isn't only one grounds for divorce. But what has any of this got to do with murder and your belief that Jesus commanded murder? or your belief that Jesus commanded divorce? Are you now saying that you believe Jesus commanded celibacy?

I've spoken with a number of people who have used drugs like marijuana in the past. They seem unable to keep their minds on a specific topic. They jump from one point to another in an unrelated jumble of thoughts. This topic reminds me of such.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL further explains his belief by arguing Jesus also commanded other unlawful acts - such as divorce and polygamy.

Where did Jesus command this?

APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?

I didn't know you were with Green on this murder/killing thing. He and James cannot or will not clearly and concisely distinguish the difference between murder and killing. Can you?

Even the courts of today distinguish between "involuntary manslaughter" and "capital punishment" and "enemy combat" in war and "murder." There are different categories of "killing," to include the distinctions between man and beast as well.

War is murder. That is what MM has a problem with.

But don't you believe that God required Saul to kill the Amalekites?

Back up some - were the Israelites suppose to take the promised land by warfare, was that what God wanted? MM say yes. EGW says no. Where the Israelites ever supposed to have a king????? NO.

Back up some - were the Israelites suppose to take the promised land by warfare, was that what God wanted? MM say yes. EGW says no. Where the Israelites ever supposed to have a king????? NO.

You believe Jesus commanded war. The Bible states it so plainly even you believe it.

You seem to reject the idea that God commanded King Saul to kill King Agag.

You believe Jesus commanded war. The Bible states it so plainly even you believe it. The only time Jesus prohibited it is when the Hebrews refused His initial command to attack. Jesus then commanded them to retreat. Instead they attacked. Jesus told them to retreat, not to attack. You twist this incident to say Jesus never intended the Hebrews to take the Promised Land by force of arms.

APL is saying that God did NOT command Saul to kill Agag and the Amalekites.

1 Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
15:9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,
15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

APL, you digress - again. No one here disputes the truthfulness of the passages you posted above.

However, you still have not posted passages you believe proves Jesus commanded murder. Please do so.

Astounding. How can anyone make such a claim? The Bible is too plain to be misunderstood.

It is my opinion, why MM, Green, James, and others have not and will not make such a distinction between murder and killing that even an eighth grader can determine whether someone "murdered" or "killed" is because then they would have to say that God murders. This is why some keep it vague and post page after page of ramblings of everything but the distinction. This way, they cannot be held to any specifics, and if the claim was made that they are saying God "murders", they will claim they were being misrepresented. Keep it vague, blurry, undefined, then they can weasel out of any accountability.

asygo is making a false claim.

asygo is making a false claim.

When you said No, I thought you meant God did NOT command it. Sorry about that.

Let me fix that: APL believes that God DID command Saul to kill the Amalekites.

How's that?

"And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal." APL, you say Samuel sinned and did evil. Yet the Bible says King Saul "sinned" and did "evil" because he did not kill King Agag.

APL is saying that God did NOT command Saul to kill Agag and the Amalekites.

Astounding. How can anyone make such a claim? The Bible is too plain to be misunderstood.

asygo is making a false claim.

When you said No, I thought you meant God did NOT command it. Sorry about that.

Let me fix that: APL believes that God DID command Saul to kill the Amalekites.

How's that?

Now tell us WHY God gave the commands He did.

First asygo - it is MM making the statements in the title. He can provide the support if he wishes. Second, the WHY is absolutely germane. Without knowing the why, makes the situation not understandable. A text without the context, is a pretext to a proof text. I prefer to read the Bible as a whole.

1 Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

God gave instructions for divorce: true or false? TRUE. Does this mean that God condones, desires, wants, approves of divorce? NO. God HATES divorce. Yet, He did give instructions for divorce. WHY? MM things this is an irrelevant question, and so dismisses it. It is not irrelevant, and is in fact revelatory as to how God works with those the refuse to fully follow Him, those that reject Him, those that despise Him.

"APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?"

Of course not.

Murder and killing are two completely different actions. Murder is undeserved and killing is deserved.

Again, God can read the hearts of men and rightly discern what action is proper. And since has always wanted to saved life, He would never murder anyone.

Consequently, since all that exist is created by God, and all that exist is owned and maintained by God, all who reject God must be killed because there isn't anywhere for these people to live happy lives. Light and darkness can never co-exist!

Kland, your accusation is groundless. We have repeatedly addressed your concern over the distinction between killing and murder. You have refused to respond. Jesus can do things we cannot do. Jesus can kill with impunity. Even you agree. You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, and evil angels to murder. You seem to think so long as someone or some thing else is doing the murdering Jesus is free of responsibility. However, you are quick to agree if we did the same thing we would be guilty of first degree murder. So, you see, you yourself make a clear and definite distinction between right and wrong. However, we disagree on your definition of murder. I do not agree with you that Jesus commanded murder or permits murder.

APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?

APL further explains his belief by arguing Jesus also commanded other unlawful acts - such as divorce and polygamy. Is he right? Did Jesus command people to do unlawful things?

"APL believes Jesus commanded murder. Is he right? For example, Jesus commanded holy men of God, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc to kill criminals and enemy combatants. APL labels it murder. Is he right?"

Of course not.

Murder and killing are two completely different actions. Murder is undeserved and killing is deserved.

Again, God can read the hearts of men and rightly discern what action is proper. And since has always wanted to saved life, He would never murder anyone.

Consequently, since all that exist is created by God, and all that exist is owned and maintained by God, all who reject God must be killed because there isn't anywhere for these people to live happy lives. Light and darkness can never co-exist!

APL, you have not actually said - I believe Jesus commanded King Saul to kill men, women, children, and infants. Do you?

The truth is - You have never posted a passage you believe depicts Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Please do so.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING ELSE HERE UNTIL YOU ADDRESS THIS POST.

MM makes the statement in the title of this thread, then asks me to prove it. I find that interesting...

God gave instructions for divorce: true or false? TRUE. Does this mean that God condones, desires, wants, approves of divorce? NO. God HATES divorce. Yet, He did give instructions for divorce. WHY? MM things this is an irrelevant question, and so dismisses it. It is not irrelevant, and is in fact revelatory as to how God works with those the refuse to fully follow Him, those that reject Him, those that despise Him.

The history of Israel is one of constant lack of faith and rebellion. The fact that Israel had a king showed a rejection of God. Yet God did not abandon them. The instructions that God gave Israel were often to reduce the damage of their wayward, faithless ways. And people look at this and say, YES - that is what God wants! He commanded it. That proves it! NO, it does not.

A modern metaphor is of Godly parents with a promiscuous child. They could let the child run wild, or they can inform the child of methods to minimize the damage his actions are leading to. Informing a child of barrier methods, and birth control in no ways means the parents wholly approve of the direction, goals and actions of the child.

The people demanded meat in the wilderness. God gave them that which was not good for them. Many died! Does this mean that God approves of the meat HE gave them? Not in the least! Read the Bible as a whole.

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Numbers
35:15 These six cities shall be a refuge, [both] for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.
35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
35:20 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
35:21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote [him] shall surely be put to death; [for] he [is] a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.
35:22 But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait,
35:23 Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing [him] not, and cast [it] upon him, that he die, and [was] not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
35:24 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments:
35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
35:26 But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled;
35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
35:29 So these [things] shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

APL, you have not actually said - I believe Jesus commanded King Saul to kill men, women, children, and infants. Do you?

The truth is - You have never posted a passage you believe depicts Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Please do so.

DO NOT POST ANYTHING ELSE HERE UNTIL YOU ADDRESS THIS POST.

APL is too blind to see his error.

Kland, you have refused to address the following passage:

The difference between kill and murder is clear and distinct. Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder." The Bible also says, "For sedition and murder was cast into prison". "Let none of you suffer as a murderer." "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." "Murderers . . . shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

The following passages makes the distinction abundantly clear:





Murder is unlawful. Whereas killing the murderer is lawful - it is not considered murder. "He shall not be guilty."

As I expected, you have taken the "sidestep" route.

What do you have to say about Agag?

1) Did God command that Agag be killed?
2) Did Samuel sin in killing Agag?

Have I ever said the Bible was not true??????? No. My repeated question to you, and MM and others is WHY did these things happen???? MM believes that Israel was always supposed to fight, use arms to kill the Canaanites. He denies that the people were never supposed to fight. Do you also deny this truth????? I think you do deny it.

M: APL, you have not actually said - I believe Jesus commanded King Saul to kill men, women, children, and infants. Do you? The truth is - You have never posted a passage you believe depicts Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. Please do so. DO NOT POST ANYTHING ELSE HERE UNTIL YOU ADDRESS THIS POST.

A: MM - have I said the Bible was not true? Saul had his commands, he did not follow through and do them. He was in rebellion just as Israel had been since leaving Egypt. IF Israel had followed God's commands, they would have NEVER have had a need to fight. IF Israel had followed God, they NEVER would have had a king, do you agree or not? Their need to fight was a result of rebellion and rejection of God as their leader. And did their fighting make them a great nation? Did they accomplish that which God had planned for them? What was the final result of their rebellion? The 70 week prophesy tells us.

M: Moderators: As you can see, APL is refusing to comply with my demands. Is there a Christian way to resolve this ongoing problem? [/color]

A: I'm glad you see it as a DEMAND. You want to use FORCE to get me to comply to submit to your DEMANDS. I ask of you to see the whole picture that Bible is showing, but I can't make you.

Deuteronomy
10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Deuteronomy
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Micah
6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

John
15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Jesus demands love and obedience.

Saying Jesus can murder with impunity or Jesus can kill with impunity is saying the exact same thing,

Brother C is too set and willful, and too unteachable for the Lord to use to do any special work in His cause. He is too stubborn to let a few sacrificed lives change his course. He would maintain his views and notions all the more earnestly. These men will yet learn to their sorrow that they might better be teachable, and not drive their extreme views, whatever the result may be. The community will be just as well off, and a little safer upon the whole, if both these men obtain employment in some other business where life and health will not be endangered by their course of action. {2T 386.1}
...
When he has pursued a wrong course, evidently unbecoming a disciple of the meek and lowly Jesus, and has known that his words and acts were not in accordance with the sanctifying influence of truth, he has mulishly stood in his own defense, until his honesty has been questioned. He has made the most precious truth for these last days disgusting to his friends and relatives; he has proved a stumbling block to them. His evasions, his bigotry, and the extreme views he has taken have turned more souls away from the truth than his best endeavors have brought into it. {2T 388.2}

His combativeness, firmness, and self-esteem are large. He cannot bless any church with his influence until he is converted. He can see the faults of others, and will question the course of this one and that one if they do not fully endorse what he may present; but if anyone receives what he advocates, he cannot and will not see their faults and errors. This is not right. He may be correct upon many points, but he has not the mind which dwelt in Christ. When he can see himself as he is, and will correct the defects in his character, then he will be in a position to let his light so shine before men, that they, by seeing his good works, may be led to glorify our Father who is in heaven. His light has shone in such a manner that men have pronounced it darkness and turned from it in disgust. Self must die, and he must possess a teachable spirit, or he will be left to follow his own ways and be filled with his own doings. {2T 388.3}

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers [not talking the truth in a boasting, triumphant manner], but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men." "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." {2T 389.1}

Brother C wants his mind to control others, and unless he can have this privilege he is dissatisfied. He is not a peacemaker. His course will cause more confusion and distrust in a church than any ten persons can counteract. His peculiar temperament is such that he will be picking flaws, and finding fault with all but himself. He will not prosper until he learns the lesson that he ought to have learned years ago, humbleness of mind. At his age he will learn this lesson at much cost to self. All his life he has been trying to build himself up, to save himself, to preserve his own life; and he has lost his labor every time. {2T 389.2}

What Brother C needs is to have the deceptive gloss taken from his eyes, that he may look, with eyes enlightened by the Spirit of God, into his own heart, and test and weigh every motive, and not let Satan put a false coloring upon his course of action. His position is extremely perilous. He will soon turn decidedly to the right, or he will go on deceiving others and deceiving himself. He needs to have his inmost soul converted, and to be subdued and transformed by the renewing of his mind. Then he can do good. But he can never come into the light until he encourages a spirit of humble confession and takes hold with decision to right his wrongs and, as far as he can, to do away the reproach he has brought upon the cause of God. {2T 389.3}

Hm - "light and dark can neer co-exist". WHY? Because the light has to kill the darkness? Sin is not really the problem them, is it? Sin does not kill. Sin has to be killed or else it won't go away. And as MM says, God causes disease and death. What is the problem then, sin or God?

Kland, murder is unlawful. Killing murderers is lawful. Jesus treats the two differently. The distinction is biblical - murder is unlawful; killing murderers is lawful. The distinction has to do with law and justice. The law is a transcript of His character.

APL, you have repeatedly refused to comply with my demands. It is disrespectful. Please refrain from posting on this thread. You are no longer welcome here.

If your course here will cause more problem than any ten persons might counteract, I can say for my part I would rather agree with Mike.

You've been swimming with the Red Herrings so much that you have confused yourself! Let's make it simple so we all know where we stand.

T/F: God commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites.
T/F: God commanded Saul to murder the Amalekites.

My answers: T, F. Quick, easy.

I'm guessing 2 non-events will now occur:
1. APL will have the same answer as mine, but will refuse to say it as quickly and clearly. Instead, he will ask a whole bunch of questions about things which God *allowed* but did not *command* to be done.
2. kland will not ask APL to articulate the distinction between killing and murder.

I hope my guesses are way off the mark.

If you could, would you set APL on fire, or otherwise cause pain, suffering and death to him? Just like Hitler satan would do?

Who is saying this?????

I'll add another prediction: Johann has been supporting your teachings, but is now wary because you believe God commanded Saul to kill. However, he will sit back and watch, rather than question you directly about your relationship with God as he does MM and others.