Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

Some people believe Jesus, while here in sinful flesh, did not have to resist the unholy clamorings of self. They believe He was free of self.

Jesus had to deny self just like a born-again believer. ... Like us, He had to "abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul" (1 Peter 2:11).

"Christ had not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity in humanity (The Review and Herald, October 29, 1895).{5BC 1128.3}

(John 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Hebrews 4:15.)
Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.{5BC 1128.4}

In what sense, then, did Jesus deny self?

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. (CON 66)

The clamors of self, its pretensions, its lusts, must be rebuked, and we must put on the robe of humility, and take our place as humble learners in the school of Christ. {OHC 37.5}

Every Christian will be assailed by the allurements of the world, the clamors of the carnal nature, and the direct temptations of Satan. {Pr 179.2}

When selfishness clamors for the victory in the hearts of men, and they are tempted to withhold their due proportion in any good work, they should strengthen their principles of right by the thought that He who was rich in heaven's priceless treasure turned away from it all and became poor. {3T 402.2}

God is molding the heart into something more like Himself. And yet self clamors constantly for the victory. {3T 537.1}

The Lord would have parents obey the dictates of reason, rather than the clamors of impulse and blind passion. They should learn to control themselves, and then they are prepared to control their sons and daughters. {ST, February 9, 1882 par. 4}

He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {CCh 348.5}

Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. {VSS 304.4}

Day by day we must subdue the evil traits that strive for the mastery. {ST, January 8, 1885 par. 13}

In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. Christ knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and by his false insinuations to ensnare all whose trust is not in God. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. It is not His will that we should be placed at a disadvantage in the conflict with Satan. He would not have us intimidated and discouraged by the assaults of the serpent. "Be of good cheer," He says; "I have overcome the world." John 16:33. {DA 122.3}

Would that we could oftener hear the simple, earnest testimony of heart conflicts and victories:-- "I have been fighting the battles of the Lord, and have made conquests over self. I was sorely assaulted by the great adversary, tempted to neglect prayer, and to seek my own pleasure. I did not faithfully discharge my duty to God. He has bestowed upon me Heaven's richest blessing, in the gift of his Son; yet I made his service secondary to my own. But I have seen my sin in so doing, and have repented before the Lord. I have battled against self, which was striving for the mastery. The conflict was grievous, but I would not yield to the clamors of the carnal heart. I humbled my soul before God, and wept in penitence before him. My trembling faith grasped the promises, and appropriated them to myself. Jesus revealed himself as a present help in my emergency. I have gained the victory." What a blessed, softening, subduing influence such testimonies would have upon the hard heart of the unconverted or the backslider. God is speaking through clay. Religion seems a reality. {RH, December 20, 1881 par. 13}

The levels of temptation Jesus went through were on a completely different order than "us."

God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {FLB 87.3}

Your nature must be changed, and there must be a transformation of the entire being. {2T 686.1}

The power of truth is to transform heart and character. Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {6BC 1117.15}

Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}

The regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit renewed his heart. The power of the love of Christ wrought a transformation of character. This is the sure result of union with Jesus. When Christ abides in the heart, the whole nature is transformed. Christ's Spirit, His love, softens the heart, subdues the soul, and raises the thoughts and desires toward God and heaven. {SC 73.1}

Would it not be better to consider the wonderful, miracle-working power of God in the transformation of poor degraded sinners, who have been full of moral pollution, who become changed so that they are Christ-like in character, partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? {RH, August 15, 1893 par. 6}

Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. But provision is made for the repenting sinner, so that by faith in the atonement of the only begotten Son of God, he may receive forgiveness of sin, find justification, receive adoption into the heavenly family, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strengthened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

Jesus, the omnipotent God, was called to subject Himself to His equal.

Yes! Not only did Jesus have sin in His sinful flesh[/u] (just like born-again believes) He also became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us".

Arnold, Christ has always been subject to God the Father, the Ancient of Days.

___________________

Arnold, Christ has always been subject to God the Father, the Ancient of Days.

___________________

"Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery"

Did Jesus strive against His old habits? Think carefully on this one. What were Christ's old habits?

Arnold, the answer to all your questions is - Yes! ... No, Jesus did not cultivate sinful old man habits.

I hope you see that you can't get very far before you must recant the idea that Jesus walked the same exact path that we do.

Born-again believers duplicate Jesus' righteousness and true holiness while they are abiding in Him. ... They stand before God as did Jesus.

Jesus came in sinful flesh to demonstrate how to grow in grace and how to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

I will have to disagree.

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God." {1SM 344.2}

Even "true believers" fall short. Jesus never needed an external source of incense to make His offerings acceptable to God.

Isaiah 64:6 KJV But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;....

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. {1SM 344.2}

Arnold, is the fruit of the Spirit sinful? Does it require repentance, forgiveness, and atonement?

Some people believe Jesus, while here in sinful flesh, did not have to resist the unholy clamorings of self. They believe He was free of self.

Arnold, is the fruit of the Spirit sinful? Does it require repentance, forgiveness, and atonement?

The Bible says that "our" "righteousness" and "our" holiness are as "filthy rags".

This is why we need Christ's robe of righteousness.

For those who may not understand your use of the words "sinful flesh", can you tell us what you mean by "sinful flesh"???

Arnold, is the fruit of the Spirit sinful? Does it require repentance, forgiveness, and atonement?

The fruit of the Spirit is the same righteousness and true holiness Jesus manifested while here in sinful flesh. There is nothing sinful about it. The fruit of partaking of the divine nature is acceptable to God. There is nothing sinful about it.

M: The fruit of the Spirit is the same righteousness and true holiness Jesus manifested while here in sinful flesh. There is nothing sinful about it. The fruit of partaking of the divine nature is acceptable to God. There is nothing sinful about it.

A: I agree. But if that's the case, why is it that true believers' offerings are defiled and unacceptable to God without an Intercessor?

The fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of partaking of the divine nature is not defiled by sin. That much is certain. The righteousness and true holiness we experience as a result of humanity and divinity combined passes through Jesus' mediatorial intercession. "Everything's better with Blue Bonnet on it." In other words, no matter how perfect and holy it is, it is way more better when it passes through Jesus. The Father wouldn't have it any other way.

Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say righteousness and true holiness is sin-stained filthy rags. Ellen White says nothing to the contrary.

The people of God are here represented as a criminal on trial. Joshua, as high priest, is seeking for a blessing for his people, who are in great affliction. While he is pleading before God, Satan is standing at his right hand as his adversary. He is accusing the children of God, and making their case appear as desperate as possible. He presents before the Lord their evil doings and their defects. He shows their faults and failures, hoping they will appear of such a character in the eyes of Christ that He will render them no help in their great need. Joshua, as the representative of God’s people, stands under condemnation, clothed with filthy garments. Aware of the sins of his people, he is weighed down with discouragement. Satan is pressing upon his soul a sense of guiltiness that makes him feel almost hopeless. Yet there he stands as a suppliant, with Satan arrayed against him. {COL 166.4}
The work of Satan as an accuser began in heaven. This has been his work on earth ever since man’s fall, and it will be his work in a special sense as we approach nearer to the close of this world’s history. As he sees that his time is short, he will work with greater earnestness to deceive and destroy. He is angry when he sees a people on the earth who, even in their weakness and sinfulness, have respect to the law of Jehovah. He is determined that they shall not obey God. He delights in their unworthiness, and has devices prepared for every soul, that all may be ensnared and separated from God. He seeks to accuse and condemn God and all who strive to carry out His purposes in this world in mercy and love, in compassion and forgiveness. {COL 167.1}
Every manifestation of God’s power for His people arouses the enmity of Satan. Every time God works in their behalf, Satan with his angels works with renewed vigor to compass their ruin. He is jealous of all who make Christ their strength. His object is to instigate evil, and when he has succeeded, throw all the blame upon the tempted ones. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which have dishonored their Redeemer. All this he urges as an argument proving his right to work his will in their destruction. He endeavors to affright their souls with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement can never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield fully to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.{COL 168.1}
The Lord’s people cannot of themselves answer the charges of Satan. As they look to themselves they are ready to despair. But they appeal to the divine Advocate. They plead the merits of the Redeemer. God can be “just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Romans 3:26. With confidence the Lord’s children cry unto Him to silence the accusations of Satan, and bring to naught his devices. “Do me justice of mine adversary,” they pray; and with the mighty argument of the cross, Christ silences the bold accuser. {COL 168.2}
“The Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” When Satan seeks to cover the people of God with blackness, and ruin them, Christ interposes. Although they have sinned, Christ has taken the guilt of their sins upon His own soul. He has snatched the race as a brand from the fire. By His human nature He is linked with man, while through His divine nature He is one with the infinite God. Help is brought within the reach of perishing souls. The adversary is rebuked.{COL 169.1}
“Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel: and he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will (Future tense) clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments.” Then with the authority of the Lord of hosts the angel made a solemn pledge to Joshua, the representative of God’s people: “If thou wilt walk in My ways, and if thou wilt keep My charge, then thou shalt also judge My house, and shalt also keep My courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by”—even among the angels that surround the throne of God. (Zechariah 3:3-7).{COL 169.2}
Notwithstanding the defects of the people of God, Christ does not turn away from the objects of His care. He has the power to change their raiment. He removes the filthy garments, He places upon the repenting, believing ones His own robe of righteousness, and writes pardon against their names on the records of heaven. He confesses them as His before the heavenly universe. Satan their adversary is shown to be an accuser and deceiver. God will do justice for His own elect. {COL 169.3}

Do any of us know of anybody who claims that they are righteous and holy and actually denies self?

When Christ dwells in the heart, the soul will be so filled with His love, with the joy of communion with Him, that it will cleave to Him; and in the contemplation of Him, self will be forgotten. Love to Christ will be the spring of action. Those who feel the constraining love of God, do not ask how little may be given to meet the requirements of God; they do not ask for the lowest standard, but aim at perfect conformity to the will of their Redeemer. With earnest desire they yield all and manifest an interest proportionate to the value of the object which they seek. {SC 44.2}

You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. {SC 48.1}

You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. This is the lesson which Jesus taught while He was on earth, that the gift which God promises us, we must believe we do receive, and it is ours. {SC 49.3}

You confess your sins and give yourself to God. You will to serve Him. Just as surely as you do this, God will fulfill His word to you. If you believe the promise,--believe that you are forgiven and cleansed,--God supplies the fact; you are made whole, just as Christ gave the paralytic power to walk when the man believed that he was healed. It is so if you believe it. {SC 51.1}

Do not wait to feel that you are made whole, but say, "I believe it; it is so, not because I feel it, but because God has promised." {SC 51.2}

But it is the will of God to cleanse us from sin, to make us His children, and to enable us to live a holy life. So we may ask for these blessings, and believe that we receive them, and thank God that we have received them. It is our privilege to go to Jesus and be cleansed, and to stand before the law without shame or remorse. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1. {SC 51.3}

Here is where thousands fail; they do not believe that Jesus pardons them personally, individually. They do not take God at His word. It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. Put away the suspicion that God's promises are not meant for you. They are for every repentant transgressor. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ to be brought by ministering angels to every believing soul. None are so sinful that they cannot find strength, purity, and righteousness in Jesus, who died for them. He is waiting to strip them of their garments stained and polluted with sin, and to put upon them the white robes of righteousness; He bids them live and not die. {SC 52.3}

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4. {SC 58.3}

The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {SC 59.3}

If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {SC 61.1}

Arnold, we know Ellen White does not contradict the Bible. So, with this in mind, we need to understand 1SM 344 in light of Bible truth. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the fruit of humanity and divinity combined, the fruit of partaking of the divine nature, the fruit of walking in the Spirit is sin-stained filthy rags and unacceptable to God. ... Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say righteousness and true holiness is sin-stained filthy rags. Ellen White says nothing to the contrary.

In that ancient ritual which is the gospel in symbol, no blemished offering could be brought to God’s altar. The sacrifice that was to represent Christ must be spotless. The Word of God points to this as an illustration of what His children are to be—“a living sacrifice,”“holy and without blemish.” Romans 12:1; Ephesians 5:27. {CSA 56.5}

If you will only watch, continually watch unto prayer, if you will do everything as if you were in the immediate presence of God, you will be saved from yielding to temptation and may hope to be kept pure, spotless, and undefiled till the last. {AH 338.2}

Wherever he went, he created an atmosphere of heavenly purity. Whatever he did, he did to make men like himself,--pure, spotless, undefiled. {RH, July 21, 1891 par. 10}

Obedience to the laws of God develops in man a beautiful character that is in harmony with all that is pure and holy and undefiled. In the life of such a man the message of the gospel of Christ is made clear. {AG 146.2}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {3SM 131.1}

Are you obeying Him, living for Him, loving Him? Is each member pure and holy and undefiled, one in whose mouth there is no guile? If so, you are most happy; for you are, in the sight of God, "more precious than fine gold; even . . . than the golden wedge of Ophir." {5T 481.4}

The way to become great and noble is to be like Jesus, pure, holy, and undefiled. {ChL 48.1}

The soul temple is to be sacred, holy, pure, and undefiled. {FW 26.3}

He who professes to be a follower of Christ is to watch himself, keeping himself pure and undefiled in thought, word, and deed. {AG 101.5}

It is a great thing to be meek and lowly in heart, to be pure and undefiled, as was the Prince of heaven when He walked among men. {AG 109.6}

This is the oblation of a life-gift in our behalf, that we may be all that He desires us to be--representatives of Him, expressing the fragrance of His character, His own pure thoughts, His divine attributes as manifested in His sanctified human life, in order that others may behold Him in His human form, and, comprehending God's wonderful design, be led to desire to be like Christ--pure, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing (MS 159, 1903). {6BC 1118.4}

Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {AG 230.3}

When the soul has been cleansed, it is the duty of the Christian to keep it undefiled. {AG 295.3}

The grace of Christ alone can change your heart and then you will reflect the image of the Lord Jesus. God calls upon us to be like Him--pure, holy, and undefiled. We are to bear the divine image. {AG 299.2}

Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.” [Hebrews 7:26.] The followers of Christ must shine as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. {GW92 445.2}

James, where in the Bible does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is defiled and unacceptable to God?

Jesus had to deny self just like a born-again believer. Why? Because His sinful flesh nature tempted Him from within in the same way it tempts us from within.

At the Saviour’s baptism, Satan was among the witnesses. He saw the Father’s glory overshadowing His Son. He heard the voice of Jehovah testifying to the divinity of Jesus. Ever since Adam’s sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God; the intercourse between heaven and earth had been through Christ; but now that Jesus had come “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Romans 8:3), the Father Himself spoke. He had before communicated with humanity through Christ; now He communicated with humanity in Christ. Satan had hoped that God’s abhorrence of evil would bring an eternal separation between heaven and earth. But now it was manifest that the connection between God and man had been restored.{DA 116.2}

Jesus could say, "I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members"(Rom 7:23). He had "lusts that war in your members" (Jam 4:1).

He voluntarily assumed human nature. It was His own act, and by His own consent. He clothed His divinity with humanity. He was all the while as God, but He did not appear as God. He veiled the demonstrations of Deity which had commanded the homage, and called forth the admiration of the universe of God. He was God while upon earth, but He divested Himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of a man. He walked the earth as a man. For our sakes He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. He laid aside His glory and His majesty. He was God, but the glories of the form of God He for awhile relinquished.... He bore the sins of the world, and endured the penalty which rolled like a mountain upon His divine soul. He yielded up His life a sacrifice, that man should not eternally die. He died, not through being compelled to die, but by His own free will.—Ibid.{7ABC 446.1}

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. S.D.A. Bible Commentary 5:1113.{7ABC 446.2}

M: True believers are like Jesus - pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, and separate from sinners. Ellen White states this truth over and over again.

A: MM, you have said and quoted a lot of things. But I am looking for one thing, and I seem to have missed it. You have pointed out a lot of things that are NOT defiled, but I am only asking you what IS defiled in 1SM 344. What was she describing as defiled and unacceptable to God?

Jesus bears tenderly with them, not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6}

Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

It is God's purpose to obliterate all traces of sin from His handiwork, to restore human beings to their original purity. To fulfill this purpose, God's only Son, equal with the Father, assumed human nature. He stooped to our estate that He might lift us from a fallen, degraded condition to the pure and holy condition of Adam when he came from the hand of the Creator. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 3}

Christ's work was to restore man to his original state, to heal him, through divine power, from the wounds and bruises made by sin. Man's part is to lay hold by faith of the merits of Christ, and co-operate with the divine agencies in forming a righteous character; so that God may save the sinner, and yet be just, and his righteous law vindicated. {SpTA07 25.2}

The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12. {DA 466.5}

M: James, where in the Bible does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is defiled and unacceptable to God?

J: What? That is completely contrary to anything I believe or have ever said.

"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." This expression, "bought with a price" means everything to us. In consideration of the price paid for us, shall we not yield our bodies and souls up to Him who has bought us with His blood? Shall not that which He has redeemed be kept in as wholesome and pure and holy a condition as possible? Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. The lower passions have their seat in the body, and work through it. The words, "flesh", or "Fleshly lusts" or "Carnal lusts", embrace the lower, corrupt nature: the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as Christ's purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {SpM 209.2}

Born-again believers duplicate Jesus' righteousness and true holiness while they are abiding in Him. ... They stand before God as did Jesus.

Nevertheless, the righteous fruit of abiding in Jesus must be sweetened with the perfume of Jesus' blood and righteousness to be spotless and acceptable to our heavenly Father. Not because it is sinful.

Let's say I agree with your interpretation of 1SM 344 - that true believers' fruit is not sinful, but neither is it spotless and acceptable without Jesus adding His Blue Bonnet. You say that true believers "stand before God as did Jesus." If so, who added Blue Bonnet to Christ's good works? Who perfumed His righteous fruits so they could BECOME spotless and acceptable?

The silent, fervent prayer of the soul will rise like holy incense to the throne of grace and will be as acceptable to God as if offered in the sanctuary. {AH 212.4}

It is not the length of time we labor but our willingness and fidelity in the work that makes it acceptable to God. {COL 402.3}

As we thus contemplate heavenly themes, our faith and love will grow stronger, and our prayers will be more and more acceptable to God, because they will be more and more mixed with faith and love. {CE 57.2}

Repentance, true humility, a broken heart, and a contrite spirit, alone will be acceptable to God. {CS 153.1}

Physical and mental effort, wisely combined, will keep the whole man in a condition that makes him acceptable to God. {DG 162.3}

By the Spirit every sincere prayer is indited, and such prayer is acceptable to God. {DA 189.2}

Music is acceptable to God only when the heart is sanctified and made soft and holy by its facilities. {Ev 512.1}

Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. {FW 48.3}

All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. {FW 94.1}

The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God. {FLB 197.4}

It is not the greatness of the gift that makes the offering acceptable to God; it is the purpose of the heart, the spirit of gratitude and love that it expresses. {FLB 245.5}

Neither prayer nor almsgiving has any virtue in itself to recommend the sinner to God; the grace of Christ, through His atoning sacrifice, can alone renew the heart and make our service acceptable to God. {AG 86.4}

But are good works of no real value? Is the sinner who commits sin every day with impunity, regarded of God with the same favor as the one who through faith in Christ tries to work in his integrity? The Scripture answers, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {AG 331.3}

It requires earnest efforts to present ourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. It takes the entire being, complete consecration, entire submission. There must be no chamber of the mind where Satan can hold sway, and carry out his devices. Self must be crucified. Sacrifices must be made that will seem like taking the very life-blood from the heart. {GW92 470.2}

In the lives of those who are partakers of the divine nature there is a crucifixion of the haughty, self-sufficient spirit that leads to self-exaltation. In its place the Spirit of Christ abides, and in the life the fruits of the Spirit appear. Having the mind of Christ, His followers reveal the graces of His character. Nothing short of this will make men acceptable to God. Nothing short of this will give them the pure, holy character that those must have who are admitted to heaven. As soon as a man puts on Christ, an evidence of the change wrought in him is seen in spirit and word and act. A heavenly atmosphere surrounds his soul; for Christ is abiding within. {LHU 301.4}

However complete may have been our consecration at conversion, it will avail us nothing unless it be renewed daily, but a consecration that embraces the actual present is fresh, genuine, and acceptable to God. {OFC 125.5}

The fruit Jesus produced while abiding in the Father ascended in spotless purity. It needed no additives to make it acceptable.

Did a short search on the phrase "acceptable to God". Although she doesn't always say so, the fruit of faith is acceptable to our heavenly Father only after Jesus mixes in His love and light.

No, they are the "same". Ellen White says so in explicit terms. There is another reason why the fruit Jesus bore needed no additives. I believe it is because Jesus is God.

No, they are the "same". Ellen White says so in explicit terms. There is another reason why the fruit Jesus bore needed no additives. I believe it is because Jesus is God.

Arnold, the fruit of abiding in Jesus is righteousness and true holiness. Not sin. Defiled, yes! Requiring the love and light of Jesus, yes! Sinful, no! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Believers do what they do because God does what He does. The result is His good pleasure. Just because Jesus must mix in His love and light, it doesn't mean the original is sinful. Jesus is not in the business of making sin acceptable to God. No amount of His love and light can transform sin into something acceptable to God. Sin will perish with Satan in the lake of fire.

Again, I believe the fruit of Jesus abiding in the Father required no additional love and light for the simple fact He is God.

James... Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh.

Let's keep this simple: Jesus required nothing added. True believers need something added. That's different, not the same. Do you agree?

M: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh.

J: THAT IS NOT TRUE! PAY ATTENTION!!!! "Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God... He (Jesus) was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."{5BC 1128.4} If the first Adam was created without a taint of sin, that means he was sinless, in sinless flesh, and Jesus is the SECOND ADAM.

In doing this He took upon Himself the nature of weak, sinful humanity, and came to this world to battle with the powers of darkness. {2SAT 299.2}

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing he could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam. {YI, December 20, 1900 par. 7}

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {DA 117.2}

The human nature of Christ is likened to ours, and suffering was more keenly felt by Him; for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. {7ABC 449.7}

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world, which had brought upon man inexpressible suffering. {RH, August 4, 1874 par. 1}

We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which he was particularly adapted, because of his divine nature; for he stood before God as man's representative, and was tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of a man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. But the work of Christ was to take from Satan his control of man, and he could do this only in a straightforward way. He came as a man, to be tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. Christ rendered obedience to God, and overcame as humanity overcome. We are led to make wrong conclusions because of erroneous views of the nature of our Lord. To attribute to his nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, is to destroy the completeness of his humanity. The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man, who humbled himself to our human nature; it was he who was tempted in the wilderness and who endured the contradiction of sinners against himself. {ST, April 10, 1893 par. 3}

The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matthew 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

M: Arnold, the fruit of abiding in Jesus is righteousness and true holiness. Not sin. Defiled, yes! Requiring the love and light of Jesus, yes! Sinful, no! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Believers do what they do because God does what He does. The result is His good pleasure. Just because Jesus must mix in His love and light, it doesn't mean the original is sinful. Jesus is not in the business of making sin acceptable to God. No amount of His love and light can transform sin into something acceptable to God. Sin will perish with Satan in the lake of fire. Again, I believe the fruit of Jesus abiding in the Father required no additional love and light for the simple fact He is God.

A: I'll ignore the "Not sin. Defiled, yes!" part for now. Let's keep this simple: Jesus required nothing added. True believers need something added. That's different, not the same. Do you agree?

The fruit Jesus produced while abiding in the Father ascended in spotless purity.

You seem to think that Jesus was here of His own accord. I have not seen one mention of the work of the Father through Christ in any of your discourse which means you do not get the full picture.

M: James, the 144,000 will have sinful flesh after probation closes. Having it will not count as sin against them. So too, Jesus having sinful flesh did count as sin against Him. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh. The "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." It can only tempt from within to sin. It is not a sin to be tempted. No one incurs guilt or corruption or contamination because they have sinful flesh. Jesus was tempted like a born-again believer - including being tempted from within via sinful flesh.

J: Mt Man can't you admit when you are wrong? I gave you direct proof that your statement was wrong and you skip right over it without missing a beat.

Yes, Jesus is the second Adam. "His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin." However, unlike Adam, He took upon His sinless nature our weak, fallen, sinful, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took humanity, with all its liabilities. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. He assumed human nature with its temptations. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. Not in some things, or most things, but "in all things". "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same". Hebrews 2:14.

M: Arnold, the fruit of abiding in Jesus is righteousness and true holiness. Not sin. Defiled, yes! Requiring the love and light of Jesus, yes! Sinful, no! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Believers do what they do because God does what He does. The result is His good pleasure. Just because Jesus must mix in His love and light, it doesn't mean the original is sinful. Jesus is not in the business of making sin acceptable to God. No amount of His love and light can transform sin into something acceptable to God. Sin will perish with Satan in the lake of fire. Again, I believe the fruit of Jesus abiding in the Father required no additional love and light for the simple fact He is God.

A: I'll ignore the "Not sin. Defiled, yes!" part for now. Let's keep this simple: Jesus required nothing added. True believers need something added. That's different, not the same. Do you agree?

M: "Righteousness and true holiness" is the "same" in the sense it is not sinful. The fact the one requires additions and the other does not is different.

"Righteousness and true holiness" is the "same" in the sense it is not sinful. The fact the one requires additions and the other does not is different.

Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good. {COL 391.2}

God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. {MB 76.2}

Under the covenant of grace, the conditions of eternal life are precisely the same as those given to man in Eden. The believing sinner, through his divine substitute and surety, renders obedience to the law of God. Mercy granted to man is the reward of the merit of Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and "purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Provision made for the salvation of men through the imputed righteousness of Christ, does not do away with good works, release us from our obligation to keep the law, nor lessen in the least its holy claim. Christ came to exalt the law and make it honourable, to reveal its exceeding breadth and changeless character. The glory of the gospel of grace is the imputed righteousness of Christ, providing a way of salvation through obedience to the law of God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. {Messenger, May 10, 1893 par. 2}

But that which God required of Adam in paradise before the fall, He requires in this age of the world from those who would follow Him,--perfect obedience to His law. But righteousness without a blemish can be obtained only through the imputed righteousness of Christ. Through the provision that God has made for the forgiveness and restoration of sinners, the same requirements may be fulfilled by men today that were given to Adam in Eden. {RH, September 3, 1901 par. 2}

The "same" in that they are without the taint of sin, but different in that one is like sunlight and the other like candlelight, different in that one requires additions and the other does not.

We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which he was particularly adapted, because of his divine nature; for he stood before God as man's representative, and was tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of a man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. But the work of Christ was to take from Satan his control of man, and he could do this only in a straightforward way. He came as a man, to be tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. Christ rendered obedience to God, and overcame as humanity overcome. We are led to make wrong conclusions because of erroneous views of the nature of our Lord. To attribute to his nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, is to destroy the completeness of his humanity. The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man, who humbled himself to our human nature; it was he who was tempted in the wilderness and who endured the contradiction of sinners against himself. {ST, April 10, 1893 par. 3}

The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matthew 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

Who is it that is not satisfied with the candlelight of "righteousness and true holiness" and requires sunlight? Who is it that finds the good works of true believers, without the taint of sin, unacceptable?

Where in this did Jesus walk in sinful flesh? As I see it Jesus walked in REDEMPTIVE Flesh. He did not satisfy the old man of fallen humanity, He overcame it. Jesus is the example for Born again Christians to focus on and strive for, but He was never needing to be born again. He was born perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect and He remained that way forever.

James, it is not a sin to have sinful flesh. The "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." Jesus lived life in the likeness of sinful flesh like a born-again believer.

The Godhead.

Do you think it is up to you to change the terminology of scripture? The bible says it IS a sin to walk in sinful flesh

To be in SINFUL flesh means to be a sinner. ...
I have searched and NO ONE says Jesus was in "sinful flesh", so why do you feel compelled to write this? Do you have a new gospel?

Do not forget, either, that the mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh, but God manifest in sinful flesh. There could never be any mystery about God's manifesting Himself in sinless flesh—in one who had no connection whatever with sin. That would be plain enough. But that he can manifest Himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery. Yea, it is the mystery of God. And it is a glorious fact, thank the Lord! Believe it. And before all the world, and for the joy of every person in the world, in Jesus Christ He has demonstrated that this great mystery is indeed a fact in human experience. For "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same." "In all things it behoved Him to be made like unto his brethren." And therefore God "made Him to be sin for us." "He hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Thus, in our flesh, having our nature, laden with iniquity, and Himself made to be sin, Christ Jesus lived in this world, tempted in all points like as we are; and yet God always caused Him to triumph in Him, and made manifest the savour of His knowledge by Him in every place. Thus God was manifest in the flesh,—in our flesh, in human flesh laden with sin,—and made to be sin in itself, weak and tempted as ours is. And thus the mystery of God was made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. Oh, believe it! {November 19, 1896 ATJ, PTUK 742.7}

And this is the mystery of God to-day and forever—God manifest in the flesh, in human flesh, in flesh, laden with sin, tempted and tried. In this flesh, God will make manifest the knowledge of Himself in every place where the believer is found. Believe it, and praise His holy name! {November 19, 1896 ATJ, PTUK 742.8}

This is the mystery which to-day, in the third angel's message, is again to be made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. This is the mystery of God, which in this time is to be "finished,"—not only finished in the sense of being ended to the world, but finished in the sense of being brought to completion in its grand work in the believer. This is the time when the mystery of God is to be finished in the sense that God is to be manifest in every true believer, in every place where that believer shall be found. This is, in deed and in truth, the keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. {November 19, 1896 ATJ, PTUK 742.9}

"Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world,"—I have revealed God in the flesh. Our faith is the victory that has overcome the world. Therefore, and now, "Thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savor of his knowledge by us in every place." {November 19, 1896 ATJ, PTUK 743.1}

I have searched and NO ONE says Jesus was in "sinful flesh", so why do you feel compelled to write this? Do you have a new gospel?

So no matter how many ways we can find similarities, from the point of view of the Godhead, there is a difference that makes one acceptable and the other unacceptable. Can you agree with that?

Yes. From my point of view, too. Jesus' "righteousness and true holiness" so far exceeds anything believers can experience while abiding in Jesus as to make the comparison nearly null and void - like the difference between sunlight and candlelight.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

Now let's consider Adam BEFORE his transgression. When God looked at him without a Mediator, were Adam's "righteousness and true holiness" on the acceptable or the unacceptable side from God's point of view?

Acceptable.

The problem is Mt Man that you are saying throughout His life Jesus was walking in sinful flesh.

The only time Jesus was directly associated with the sins of humanity was when He took the sins of the world on His head during the three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth" the sign of Jonah. . . God gave me a vision of when this happened, so I know without impunity that you are wrong about how you are trying to present these things. You assume way too much.

As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. The peace lover must dwell with strife, the truth must abide with falsehood, purity with vileness. Every sin, every discord, every defiling lust that transgression had brought, was torture to His spirit. {DA 111.4}

With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116.4}

The weight of the sins of the world was pressing His soul, and His countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world, which had brought upon man inexpressible suffering. The indulgence of appetite had been increasing, and strengthening with every successive generation since Adam's transgression, until the race was so feeble in moral power that they could not overcome in their own strength. Christ, in behalf of the race, was to overcome appetite by standing the most powerful test upon this point. He was to tread the path of temptation alone, and there must be none to help Him, none to comfort or uphold Him. He was to wrestle with the powers of darkness. {1SM 271.1}

The humanity of Christ reached to the very depths of human wretchedness, and identified itself with the weaknesses and necessities of fallen man, while His divine nature grasped the Eternal. His work in bearing the guilt of man's transgression was not to give him license to continue to violate the law of God, which made man a debtor to the law, which debt Christ was Himself paying by His own suffering. The trials and sufferings of Christ were to impress man with a sense of his great sin in breaking the law of God, and to bring him to repentance and obedience to that law, and through obedience to acceptance with God. His righteousness He would impute to man, and thus raise him in moral value with God, so that his efforts to keep the divine law would be acceptable. Christ's work was to reconcile man to God through His human nature, and God to man through His divine nature. {1SM 272.5}

When Christ had fasted for forty days and forty nights, the enemy came, tempting him to make bread of the stones. Christ knew that he would be assailed upon appetite, for it was upon this point that Adam and Eve had failed. And with the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon him, he withstood the fearful test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display that leads to presumption. He endured these temptations, and overcame in man's behalf, working out for him a righteous character, because he knew that man could not do this of himself. {ST, May 27, 1897 par. 6}

The world's Redeemer, the second Adam, by his suffering and death worked out a redemption for the human race. He was tempted in all points like as we are. He knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and to ensnare, by his false insinuations, all whose hope and trust is not in Christ. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, by showing that, through the divine power granted him, man can overcome every form of temptation, Christ prepared the way for us to gain the victory. {ST, May 27, 1897 par. 7}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

But a warfare against self, subduing the desires and affections of his own heart, and searching out and controlling the secret motives of the heart, is a more difficult warfare. How unwilling is he to be faithful in such a contest as this! The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}

As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1}

...so if you want to quote him after 1888 then you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Yes! Not only did Jesus have sin in His sinful flesh (just like born-again believers) He also became sin for us.

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

The difference in intensity between the two changed from day to day. "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Prov 4:18. The difference between the two on the day before Adam sinned was so ridiculously vast it is virtually unmeasurable. I suspect the level of maturity Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc.

I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

NO WONDER WHY YOU DON'T COMPREHEND WHAT IT MEANT FOR JESUS TO BE THE SECOND ADAM!!!! It all makes sense now.

Adam stood before Jesus after creation and Jesus taught Him directly in the school house of Eden.

M: I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

A: So you are saying that sinless Adam's light was less than the candlelight of true believers such as Enoch. But the light of converted Adam was the brightest of any human ever. Did I understand you correctly?

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {6MR 112.2}

Every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 14}

Obedience to the laws of God develops in man a beautiful character that is in harmony with all that is pure and holy and undefiled. In the life of such a man the message of the gospel of Christ is made clear. Accepting the mercy of Christ and His healing from the power of sin, he is brought into right relation with God. His life, cleansed from vanity and selfishness, is filled with the love of God. His daily obedience to the law of God obtains for him a character that assures him eternal life in the kingdom of God. {AG 146.2}

The path of the just is a progressive one, from strength to strength, from grace to grace, and from glory to glory. {AG 311.5}

In this way, we go on from grace to grace, from strength to strength, obtaining one spiritual victory after another.{DG 184.4}

If we are true to the promptings of the Spirit of God, we shall go on from grace to grace, and from glory to glory, until we shall receive the finishing touch of immortality. {LHU 376.3}

By beholding Jesus we receive a living, expanding principle in the heart, and the Holy Spirit carries on the work, and the believer advances from grace to grace, from strength to strength, from character to character. He conforms to the image of Christ, until in spiritual growth he attains unto the measure of the full stature in Christ Jesus. Thus Christ makes an end of the curse of sin, and sets the believing soul free from its action and effect. {NL 26.2}

Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. {FW 101.1}

And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).{7BC 904.5}

Read that quote over and over. You need this in your approach to comprehend what you are trying to teach. This is how we are part of the divine nature but it is something that you completely ignore. I am sent to warn you that you are building a fallen erroneous theory around a very precious element of our salvation. You have not even begun to try to fathom this and ignore every attempt to correct you like you don't even care to know the truth.

You must find the balance or you will never partake of the divine nature! Stop acting like you know the truth when it is totally revealed that you do NOT! I have to speak this way to get through to you. The moment I read your statement at the beginning of this thread God warned me for you and every moment of every day that I was not preoccupied since then I have been praying and studying how to help you understand. This is a very advanced level of comprehension that I am trying to share with you. That is not boasting it is the truth.

[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was in the world, but not of the world. He was in sinful flesh, but not of sinful flesh. Yes, Jesus is the second Adam. "His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin."

However, unlike Adam, He took upon His sinless nature our weak, fallen, sinful, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took humanity with all its liabilities. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured.

He assumed human nature with its temptations. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.

"In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. Not in some things, or most things, but "in all things". "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same". Hebrews 2:14.

Level of maturity - "shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Adam matured in the fruit of the Spirit as he aged. He was not as mature before he fell as he was the day he died.

The quality of the fruit of the Spirit is same at all times in all ages. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit. The channel through which it flows does not change the fact it is the fruit of the Spirit.

Didn't you say that sinless Adam's righteousness and holiness were acceptable to God without a Mediator? But you also agreed that true believers' righteousness and holiness need a Mediator to be acceptable to God. Now you are saying that repentant Adam was more mature than sinless Adam. Yet, repentant Adam needed mediation while sinless Adam did not. So what did repentant Adam need mediation for? Your initial answer was that Jesus was very bright. But now it seems you're contradicting yourself. Please explain. Thanks.

The question is, what is defiling the good works of true believers? You have yet to touch it with a 10-foot pole. I thought you were going somewhere definite with the "Jesus is brighter" idea, but that seems to have imploded upon closer inspection.

[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

What is the evidence of this?

Reminding you of this again, Christ denied self in heaven:

"Let us learn what it means to deny self as Christ denied self. He laid aside all that He had with the Father, and clothing His divinity with humanity came to earth that He might teach men and women how they might overcome. We are living in a time of test. Shall we not decide to stand on the side of Christ in this matter?" {2SAT 319.2}

But EGW never said He had to crucify or subdue His sinful self:

“Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted. He had been exalted by God, but He humbled Himself, and when He could have taken advantage of circumstances to favor Himself, He did not do this.” {21MR 11.4}

M: Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

A: Did sinless Adam have merit? Was his obedience meritorious such that it didn't need Christ's Blue Bonnet?

M: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

R: What is the evidence of this?

Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?

Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. The following passages describe what it means to be a true believer:


In light of the insightful descriptions posted above, what does it mean to "deny self as did Christ"?

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

APL,
Christ took our sinful nature in the physical aspect, not in the moral aspect. While we are born with propensities of disobedience, "not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity" (5BC 1128).

APL,

Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?

Merit was not an issue before Adam sinned. Our "righteousness and true holiness," although "pure and holy and undefiled," requires the mediatorial merits of Jesus to be acceptable. Why? Because it passes "through the corrupt channels of humanity".

Why do the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit, but sinless Adam did not? What's the difference? Didn't you say that born-again believers are just like sinless Adam?

Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?

All heaven is waiting for human channels through which to communicate the grace of God. {PUR, June 19, 1902 par. 1}

Each angel is at his post, waiting for the cooperation of human channels to give efficiency and power to the truth in the restoration of fallen man. This was Christ's work; this is our work. {7MR 387.1}

He has placed means in the hands of men, that His divine gifts may flow through human channels in doing the work appointed us in saving our fellow men. {CCh 272.3}

He longs to reveal His salvation to the children of men; and if His chosen people will remove the obstructions, He will pour forth the waters of salvation in abundant streams through human channels. {CT 409.1}

Human nature becomes united with the divine nature, Christ lives in the human soul, and acts through all the powers of body, soul, and spirit. From the converted soul, light shines forth to those who are perishing. Those who have been in sin, and have experienced the love of Christ, know how to sympathize, how to adapt themselves to those who are in sin and sorrow, and can exercise the love of Christ through the channel of human affection. Thus a current of blessedness and joy flows through the human channel that is consecrated to the service of God. What a stream of thanksgiving and joy flows back to God through human channels. What vast numbers might unite in becoming active members of the army of the Lord in place of living a life of selfishness and self-pleasing, that at last proves itself to be not life but the veriest mockery. But when life is enriched with the life of Christ, when its impulses are quickened by the faith that works by love and purifies the soul, then the loftiest purposes are carried out, the noblest work is done, in the name of Christ. Through his own transforming grace, Christ is multiplied in the lives of those who are restored to his image. They co-operate with Christ in offering the divine gift of the whole human family. {RH, November 12, 1895 par. 7}

Working through His Holy Spirit He sanctifies and cleanses the soul temple. Thus, though his whole powers had become deranged, man may be brought back restored to his original relationship to God, and become an agent of good to every other man. In place of the diseased, soul-and-body-destroying principles of evil, he follows heavenly principles. Sanctified by the agency of the Holy Spirit, his influence upon his fellow man becomes aggressive to expel from the earth the evils produced through the satanic perversion of that which God designed should be only good. All these perverted powers the Lord Jesus will turn to His service, and man becomes the human channel to work the will of God to redeem and bring back the people that have broken away from their allegiance to God, and to unite them to their proper Center. {18MR 208.3}

All who consent to be freed from their natural selfishness, and to [be] charged with the Holy Spirit of God, are taking part with God; as the human channel they are pouring forth the currents of a divine influence. Their work has God's blessing within it. They are building upon the foundation, gold, silver, precious stones. {1888 1511.1}

Arnold, do you believe the joy, thankfulness, and blessedness that flows back to God through the human channels described above (restored to his original relationship to God) is defiled and unacceptable to God?

In that ancient ritual which is the gospel in symbol, no blemished offering could be brought to God’s altar. The sacrifice that was to represent Christ must be spotless. The Word of God points to this as an illustration of what His children are to be—“a living sacrifice,”“holy and without blemish.” Romans 12:1; Ephesians 5:27. {CSA 56.5}

If you will only watch, continually watch unto prayer, if you will do everything as if you were in the immediate presence of God, you will be saved from yielding to temptation and may hope to be kept pure, spotless, and undefiled till the last. {AH 338.2}

Wherever he went, he created an atmosphere of heavenly purity. Whatever he did, he did to make men like himself,--pure, spotless, undefiled. {RH, July 21, 1891 par. 10}

Obedience to the laws of God develops in man a beautiful character that is in harmony with all that is pure and holy and undefiled. In the life of such a man the message of the gospel of Christ is made clear. {AG 146.2}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {3SM 131.1}

Are you obeying Him, living for Him, loving Him? Is each member pure and holy and undefiled, one in whose mouth there is no guile? If so, you are most happy; for you are, in the sight of God, "more precious than fine gold; even . . . than the golden wedge of Ophir." {5T 481.4}

The way to become great and noble is to be like Jesus, pure, holy, and undefiled. {ChL 48.1}

The soul temple is to be sacred, holy, pure, and undefiled. {FW 26.3}

He who professes to be a follower of Christ is to watch himself, keeping himself pure and undefiled in thought, word, and deed. {AG 101.5}

It is a great thing to be meek and lowly in heart, to be pure and undefiled, as was the Prince of heaven when He walked among men. {AG 109.6}

This is the oblation of a life-gift in our behalf, that we may be all that He desires us to be--representatives of Him, expressing the fragrance of His character, His own pure thoughts, His divine attributes as manifested in His sanctified human life, in order that others may behold Him in His human form, and, comprehending God's wonderful design, be led to desire to be like Christ--pure, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing (MS 159, 1903). {6BC 1118.4}

Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {AG 230.3}

When the soul has been cleansed, it is the duty of the Christian to keep it undefiled. {AG 295.3}

The grace of Christ alone can change your heart and then you will reflect the image of the Lord Jesus. God calls upon us to be like Him--pure, holy, and undefiled. We are to bear the divine image. {AG 299.2}

Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.” [Hebrews 7:26.] The followers of Christ must shine as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. {GW92 445.2}

The prayer and praise and confession of God's people ascend as sacrifices to the heavenly sanctuary. But they ascend not in spotless purity. Passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by the righteousness of the great High Priest, they are not acceptable by God. Christ gathers into the censer the prayers, the praise, and the sacrifices of his people, and with these he puts the merits of his spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the incense of Christ's propitiation, our prayers, wholly and entirely acceptable, rise before God, and gracious answers are returned. {YI, April 16, 1903 par. 12}

it stands to reason denying self "as did Christ" means refusing to do anything contrary to the will of God

Such "righteousness and true holiness" as described above requires the merits of Jesus to ascend acceptable to God.

You asked - "Why do the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit"? I suspect you mean - Why does the fruit flowing through the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit? If that's what you meant, it is because nothing we do is meritorious. Good works cannot atone for past sins.

Arnold, do you believe the joy, thankfulness, and blessedness that flows back to God through the human channels described below is defiled and unacceptable to God?

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

True believers are like Jesus - pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, and separate from sinners. Ellen White states this truth over and over again. I have posted dozens of quotes as proof.

Jesus must perfume the fruit of faith for the simple reason it does not have merit. ... Again, the absence of merit is the problem. That's what Jesus adds to make it acceptable.

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us.

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature.

The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

Sinless Adam is not relevant here.

"Jesus' blood 'propitiated' or satisfied God’s wrath so that his holiness was not compromised in forgiving sinners. Some scholars have argued that the word propitiation should be translated expiation (the wiping away of sin), but the word cannot be restricted to the wiping away of sins as it also refers to the satisfaction or appeasement of God’s wrath, turning it to favor (John 18:11). God’s righteous anger needed to be appeased before sin could be forgiven, and God in his love sent his Son (who offered himself willingly) to satisfy God’s holy anger against sin. In this way God demonstrated his righteousness, which here refers particularly to his holiness and justice. Theopedia.com

"And I can cite a thousand times as many proofs to show that an apple is the same as a lobster." Lobsters are not relevant here. The truth is you cannot cite one inspired statement to prove it.

M: Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature.

J: Where in anything that I or anyone else here wrote has claimed that Jesus could not have sinned? You prove you are not listening.

Jesus was the second Adam but you say that is not relevant here? Totally ignorant statement.

You said "Sin is not covered, clothed, or removed". This shows what you lack in this knowledge.

And if you continue to throw out everything that you don't agree with as irrelevant, you will never learn anything new. You will be fully convinced, but never fully correct.

Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable.

Christ gathers into the censer the prayers, the praise, and the sacrifices of his people, and with these he puts the merits of his spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the incense of Christ's propitiation, our prayers, wholly and entirely acceptable, rise before God, and gracious answers are returned.

Merit was not an issue before Adam sinned. Merit did not become an issue until after Adam sinned.

The righteous results of abiding in Jesus are pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. However, passing through corrupt human channels it lacks merit and, as such, it is defiled and unacceptable (not sin-stained). It requires the meritorious righteousness of Jesus. His righteousness makes "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) meritorious and acceptable.

His meritorious righteousness:

1) doesn't change "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) from sin to righteousness.

2) doesn't cover or clothe "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus).

3) doesn't remove sin from "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus).

4) simple makes "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) meritorious.

I did not say that. Please check you facts.


I did not say that. Please check your facts.


I'm talking about the righteous results of abiding in Jesus. They are not stained with sin. Jesus does not cover or clothe sin-stained "righteousness and true holiness" with His robe of righteousness. Nor does He remove the stain of sin on "righteousness and true holiness". The fact is "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) is not stained with sin. It simply lacks merit.

Sinless Adam is not relevant here.

Have you never wondered why merit was not an issue with sinless Adam, but is an issue now with true believers who you say are just like Jesus? What is the difference between sinless Adam and true believers? Why does one need merit but one does not? If everything was sinless, spotless, righteous, and holy, why is CLEANSING needed?

you said "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature"

Please post a link to the quote.

you said "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature"

I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us. Jesus did not have to resist the greatest temptation. In this crucial way, Jesus is not our Substitute or Surety."

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}


As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:


"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

RH.1875-04-01
It was a difficult task for the Prince of Life to carry out the plan which he had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing his divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was familiar with absolute power. It was as difficult for him to keep the level of humanity as it is for men to rise above the low level of their depraved natures, and be partakers of the divine nature.

Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all his faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use his power to deliver himself from peril, and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness. Satan showed his knowledge of the weak points of the human heart, and put forth his utmost power to take advantage of the weakness of the humanity which Christ had assumed in order to overcome his temptations on man's account.

My point is - Jesus fought the "greatest battle". You, on the other hand, cannot agree because you believe Jesus was wired differently and was incapable. The Bible and the SOP say - "We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." But you in essence say - Not so. Impossible. Jesus never fought the "greatest battle". He was wired differently.

The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words.

When modern people hear words like
"sinful nature"
"fallen nature"
etc. they understand only ONE MEANING,
that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption.

Thus using those words concerning Jesus is absolutely and totally blasphemous to the ears of those who understand the meaning of those words as "full of sin".

We need to be certain in our belief that there was not a trace of sin in Jesus Character or life.

The only way to understand EGW's use of those words is to seek to understand what she meant by them. And basically I believe she meant that the DNA that composed His human body was DNA passed down to him through the generations. He had a fully human body with all the natural needs and physical weaknesses that such a body possesses.

However there was absolutely NOTHING in His character that desired sin-- "His nature recoiled from evil" SC 93
There was something different -- and that difference is called "a mystery", for there was NO SIN in Jesus ever.

So what was the greatest battle Jesus fought in His human nature?


His most severe temptation was to maintain complete humanity and dependence upon His Father, when He could have relied upon His own Divinity. This was the most severe discipline He faced.



At first it may seem that we aren't tempted in that line, and yet that is also our greatest battle!!!
Our greatest battle is not against acts of sin -- if that is the main battle we are fighting we will be lost!


Our greatest battle is to stop relying on self, and rely fully and completely on Christ. Surrender to HIM -- submit to Him each and every day, hour and minute.

Our battle isn't nearly as great as that of Christ, for HE had full capability to throw off his humanity and use His own divine knowledge and power.

We on the other hand are greatly deceived to think we have any capability or power to be our "own gods" and yet we think we have those capabilities and consistently want to do things "my way".

The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words.

When modern people hear words like
"sinful nature"
"fallen nature"
etc. they understand only ONE MEANING,
that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption.

The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words.

When modern people hear words like
"sinful nature"
"fallen nature"
etc. they understand only ONE MEANING,
that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption.

Thus using those words concerning Jesus is absolutely and totally blasphemous to the ears of those who understand the meaning of those words as "full of sin".

We need to be certain in our belief that there was not a trace of sin in Jesus Character or life.

But that definition is not limited to us. Here's a quote from way back: "Sin is in us. Our human nature is a sinful nature, a nature full of sin." August 12, 1908 Alonso T Jones, MEDM 646.3 And this is what MM has been trying valiantly to convince us that Jesus was.

But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect." {DA 311.5}

Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. His divine attributes were withheld from relieving His soul anguish or His bodily pains (Letter 106, 1896). {5BC 1124.2}

Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. He was able to resist the temptation of Satan through His dependence upon the divine power of His heavenly Father, as He was subject to His will, and obedient to all His commands. He kept His Father's statutes, precepts, and laws. He was continually seeking counsel of God, and was obedient to His will. It is the duty and privilege of every child to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. {SD 128}

He was clothed with light and glory, surrounded by hosts of heavenly angels eager to do his pleasure; yet He took upon Him the nature of man, and was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh," and became sin for us, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God!" Here is love that no language can express. {BEcho, September 15, 1892 par. 9}

He was tempted like born-again believers are tempted. They are not tempted in ways He was not tempted.

Was Jesus tempted to neglect His wife? No.

Was Jesus tempted to neglect His wife? No.

We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us.

We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us.

Also, Christ never had to fight a bad habit. He never was tempted to repeat a sin.

It is written: Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

In His human nature Christ rendered perfect obedience to the law of God, thus proving to all that this law can be kept. He endured the death penalty himself, not to abrogate the law, not to immortalize sin, but to take away sin. {RH, May 28, 1901 par. 10}

If Christ's human nature was not like ours now, it proves nothing to us.

APL,

?

Did Jesus ever have to fight a bad habit?

Was He ever tempted to repeat a sin?

M: My point is - Jesus fought the "greatest battle". You, on the other hand, cannot agree because you believe Jesus was wired differently and was incapable. The Bible and the SOP say - "We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." But you in essence say - Not so. Impossible. Jesus never fought the "greatest battle". He was wired differently.

J: In this quote you are presenting my faith as believing "Jesus was wired differently and was incapable" of sinning. This is a blatant lie.

[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. {1SM 344.2}

Mark
7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I'm talking about Jesus fighting the "greatest battle" - resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh.

Jesus lists things that are defiled - evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
...
However, passing through corrupt human channels it lacks merit and, as such, it is defiled and unacceptable (not sin-stained).

Do you mean you believe Christ was tempted to fight a bad habit? That He was tempted to repeat a sin? Then you are contradicting Hebrews 4:15 - "yet without sin," for if He didn't sin He couldn't be tempted to repeat a sin or to fight a bad habit.
But what does Hebrews 4:15 say? "In all points tempted just as we are." He was tempted in all points as we are. We are tempted in three great points, and so was He.

Christ took fallen human nature. If not, then the whole thing was a sham.

Again you focus on behavior. Our behavior are just symptoms of the underlying sin. Christ took fallen human nature. If not, then the whole thing was a sham.

1) Jesus tells us what is defiled by listing a bunch of sins.

2) EGW said something is defiled, but you say it is not sin. You don't have a problem with that?

3) EGW said something is defiled, but you say it is perfectly clean. You don't have a problem with that?

4) You say something is perfectly holy and righteous, but God rejects it as defiled and unacceptable. You don't have a problem with that? I do, in each case.

The only thing different between us and Christ is that He never sinned, neither in thought, nor in action. This is how I understand it.

No, I focus on the mind, while you focus on the body. What makes men sinners is their mind, not their body. We are born sinners, while Christ was born holy.

No, I focus on the mind, while you focus on the body. What makes men sinners is their mind, not their body. We are born sinners, while Christ was born holy.

Is there a difference?
...
Both John and Judas had fallen human nature, both participated in the sin. One trusted God.

What makes men sinners is their mind, not their body. We are born sinners, while Christ was born holy.

The difference between you and I is you believe defiled means "evil," whereas I believe defiled means "lacks merit".

Well said. Too many people work hard to prove He was unlike us in significant ways.

God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same (human nature) into the highest heaven.{Hvn 72.2}

Jesus brought sinful flesh into heaven? If this is the same "human nature" that He had on earth then there is something amiss in how you interpret those texts Mt Man.

HELLO ROSANGELA - YES! This is why Christ can take sinful human flesh, yet not be a sinner! It is in the mind. When a person is converted, they do not receive holy flesh.

APL, I appreciate how you contrasted mind and flesh. Excellent point. Thank you.

That's what I thought you would say. You see no difference between the wicked and the holy. Though one trusted in God, you don't see that as making any difference in his nature.

I, OTOH, believe that Christianity is not merely a modification of behavior, but a transformation of nature. Trust in God makes a world of difference.

That your view of Christianity makes no distinction between the wicked and the holy should give one pause.

Is our greatest battle against a carnal mind or carnal flesh?

M: I'm talking about Jesus fighting the "greatest battle" - resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh.

A: So you say. Neither the Bible nor EGW say that.

Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is emptied of self, of pride, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul. Self is yielded to the disposal of the Holy Spirit. {MB 15.1}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus continued, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind . . is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old life, but a transformation of the nature. There is a death to sin and self, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {ST, March 8, 1910 par. 7}

This work of self-subduing requires determined, continuous effort. In fighting the good fight of faith, obtaining precious victories, we are laying hold of eternal life. This warfare requires most strenuous effort, the exertion of all our powers. We are to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. {YI, December 22, 1886 par. 6}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

He is to be with you in your daily battle with self, that you may be true to principle; that passion, when warring for the mastery, may be subdued by the grace of Christ; that you come off more than conqueror through Him that hath loved us. Jesus has been over the ground. He knows the power of every temptation. He knows just how to meet every emergency, and how to guide you through every path of danger. Then why not trust Him? {CC 117.4}

The higher powers of the being are to rule. The passions are to be controlled by the will, which is itself to be under the control of God. The kingly power of reason, sanctified by divine grace, is to bear sway in our lives. The requirements of God must be brought home to the conscience. Men and women must be awakened to the duty of self-mastery, the need of purity, freedom from every depraving appetite and defiling habit. They need to be impressed with the fact that all their powers of mind and body are the gift of God, and are to be preserved in the best possible condition for His service. {MH 130.3}

J: God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same (human nature) into the highest heaven.{Hvn 72.2} Jesus brought sinful flesh into heaven? If this is the same "human nature" that He had on earth then there is something amiss in how you interpret those texts Mt Man.

A: Excellent point.

In taking our nature, the Saviour has bound Himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder." God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. It is the "Son of man" who shares the throne of the universe. {DA 25.3}

Excellent point.

Matthew
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

James
3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

1) Jesus tells us what is defiled by listing a bunch of sins.

2) EGW said something is defiled, but you say it is not sin. You don't have a problem with that?

3) EGW said something is defiled, but you say it is perfectly clean. You don't have a problem with that?

4) You say something is perfectly holy and righteous, but God rejects it as defiled and unacceptable. You don't have a problem with that? I do, in each case.

M: The difference between you and I is you believe defiled means "evil," whereas I believe defiled means "lacks merit".

A: IF it simply lacks merit, then why did she say, right in that quote, that it needs cleansing?

Do you believe we will receive "holy flesh" in this life?

PERHAPS you ignored/did not see, my post above?

Thus, is there a difference between the sinner and the converted? OH YES. "Let this MIND be in you..."

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. {SC 43.3}
What makes up the self? Is the mind a completely separate entity from the Body? Does the body dictate the mind?

Not sure what you are rejecting. Are you rejecting the idea the "greatest battle" involves resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh?

Jesus, like the born-again believers described above, was free of selfishness.

Jesus resurrected Himself with a glorified human body and human nature. He did not resurrect Himself with sinful flesh. Neither will He resurrect the saved with sinful flesh. Instead, He will resurrect them with sinless flesh.

You are missing one point!!!
...
When Christ sat down on the right hand of the Father, He, by Himself, has purged our sins. He had holy flesh.

The following passages are too clear to misunderstand:


Arnold, it sounds like you and James are arguing quite the opposite. It sounds like you two are saying a "good tree" bears defiled (evil, sinful) fruit, and a "fountain" yields both fresh water and salt water.

She said - "All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable."

You seem to think Jesus moistens evil with His blood. You also seem to think He perfumes evil with His merits. I completely disagree. Again, please note that He does not alter, change the fruit of abiding in Jesus. He merely adds to it. He doesn't remover anything from it. He adds merit thus making it acceptable.

You seem to think Jesus moistens evil with His blood. You also seem to think He perfumes evil with His merits. I completely disagree.

Actually, I get the point. And so does MM.

Jesus is in heaven now in sinless, holy flesh, which inspiration describes as "human nature" (God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. It is the "Son of man" who shares the throne of the universe. {DA 25.3}). Vehement protests notwithstanding, the Son of Man who walked the earth in human nature is the same Son of Man who sits on the throne in "the same" human nature.

Two points:
1. Holy flesh, like Adam had before the Fall, counts as "human nature" according to inspiration.

2. If Jesus in heaven has "the same" human nature as He had on earth, but we know that His nature here was fallen flesh, degraded by 4000 years of sin, either He has degraded flesh in heaven, or "human nature" is not primarily about the flesh, but something much more important.

M: Jesus, like the born-again believers described above, was free of selfishness.

A: The greatest battle is against self, not "resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh." . . . But I have to battle against selfishness. It sounds like my battle is harder.

M: You seem to think Jesus moistens evil with His blood. You also seem to think He perfumes evil with His merits. I completely disagree.

A: He doesn't just moisten. He doesn't just perfume. You disagree with a position I don't hold. But, He does something very important that completely tears down the idea that the only problem is lack of merit.

Where you and I differ is that I believe the "good tree" still falls short until the day that "this corruptible has put on incorruption." The fruit may be good, but the "baskets" (corrupt channels of humanity) that transport the fruit cause problems. Until you see that distinction, you will ever be confused about the fruits of the Spirit and the corrupt channels that corrupt. You will keep trying to convince people that corruption is OK.

All heaven is waiting for human channels through which to communicate the grace of God. {PUR, June 19, 1902 par. 1}

Each angel is at his post, waiting for the cooperation of human channels to give efficiency and power to the truth in the restoration of fallen man. This was Christ's work; this is our work. {7MR 387.1}

He has placed means in the hands of men, that His divine gifts may flow through human channels in doing the work appointed us in saving our fellow men. {CCh 272.3}

He longs to reveal His salvation to the children of men; and if His chosen people will remove the obstructions, He will pour forth the waters of salvation in abundant streams through human channels. {CT 409.1}

Human nature becomes united with the divine nature, Christ lives in the human soul, and acts through all the powers of body, soul, and spirit. From the converted soul, light shines forth to those who are perishing. Those who have been in sin, and have experienced the love of Christ, know how to sympathize, how to adapt themselves to those who are in sin and sorrow, and can exercise the love of Christ through the channel of human affection. Thus a current of blessedness and joy flows through the human channel that is consecrated to the service of God. What a stream of thanksgiving and joy flows back to God through human channels. What vast numbers might unite in becoming active members of the army of the Lord in place of living a life of selfishness and self-pleasing, that at last proves itself to be not life but the veriest mockery. But when life is enriched with the life of Christ, when its impulses are quickened by the faith that works by love and purifies the soul, then the loftiest purposes are carried out, the noblest work is done, in the name of Christ. Through his own transforming grace, Christ is multiplied in the lives of those who are restored to his image. They co-operate with Christ in offering the divine gift of the whole human family. {RH, November 12, 1895 par. 7}

Working through His Holy Spirit He sanctifies and cleanses the soul temple. Thus, though his whole powers had become deranged, man may be brought back restored to his original relationship to God, and become an agent of good to every other man. In place of the diseased, soul-and-body-destroying principles of evil, he follows heavenly principles. Sanctified by the agency of the Holy Spirit, his influence upon his fellow man becomes aggressive to expel from the earth the evils produced through the satanic perversion of that which God designed should be only good. All these perverted powers the Lord Jesus will turn to His service, and man becomes the human channel to work the will of God to redeem and bring back the people that have broken away from their allegiance to God, and to unite them to their proper Center. {18MR 208.3}

All who consent to be freed from their natural selfishness, and to [be] charged with the Holy Spirit of God, are taking part with God; as the human channel they are pouring forth the currents of a divine influence. Their work has God's blessing within it. They are building upon the foundation, gold, silver, precious stones. {1888 1511.1}

1) Christ had POST FALL flesh, like his brothers, the seed of Abraham. Hebrews 2:16-18 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

2) The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God." Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour's sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

Christ condemned sin in the flesh, and when He has purged our sin, sat down on the right hand of the Father.

Ellen White ties self to sinful flesh. "All selfishness is expelled," thus "denying self as did Christ" must necessarily refer to denying sinful flesh self. It is sinful flesh that lusts, desires, craves, clamors for self expression - not the heart, mind, nature of the new man. The heart, mind, nature of the old man is dead. It has ceased. Sinful flesh, however, remains alive and well.

Sinful flesh cannot actually sin or corrupt or contaminate - it can only tempt and annoy. Having sinful flesh is not a sin. Being tempted from within by sinful flesh is not a sin. Anyone who is battling "selfishness" is not abiding in Jesus. Selfishness is tied to the heart, mind, nature of the old man. While abiding in Jesus, the old man is dead.

To encounter or experience selfishness, therefore, people must neglect or reject or Jesus, and the vacuum is instantly, immediately filled by the resurrected heart, mind, nature of the old man. While abiding in the heart, mind, nature of the old man, selfishness reigns supreme. "All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin." {SC 59.4}

Conversely, people who complete the process of conversion in God's appointed way and are abiding in Jesus grow in grace and mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. While abiding in Jesus all that they think, say, and do is - "pure and holy and undefiled". Ellen White makes it clear - The righteous results of abiding in Jesus are pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.

If, as you seem to think, the "pure and holy and undefiled" results of abiding in Jesus are transformed into something evil, sinful as they pass through corrupt human channels, it stands to reason, then, you also think Jesus needs to remove, cleanse, restore it to its original loveliness. Just exactly what is it about passing through corrupt human channels that transforms the fruit of abiding in Jesus into something evil, sinful?

The fact the fruit of abiding in Jesus lacks merit is a huge, huge, huge problem. I have repeatedly said so over and over again (not to be redundant or repetitious).

By the way, Ellen White had lots to say about human channels. Not all of it is bad. ... Obviously, not everything she said about human channels is bad.

The idea that the fruit of Jesus acting through human channels is evil, sinful is difficult to swallow.

You still miss the point. Even holy flesh is called human nature by inspiration.

Given that human nature, He "has carried the same into the highest heaven."

Lucky for you.

With the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Most of us have to battle selfishness. Too bad for us.

Because of their selfishness and earthliness, even the disciples of Jesus could not comprehend the spiritual glory which He sought to reveal unto them. It was not until after Christ's ascension to His Father, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the believers, that the disciples fully appreciated the Saviour's character and mission. {DA 506.4}

One is sowing to the flesh, thinking and acting in accordance with the promptings of his own heart; the other is sowing to the Spirit, seeking to repress selfishness, to overcome inclination, and to live in obedience to the Master, whose servant he professes to be. Thus there is a perpetual difference of taste, of inclination, and of purpose. Unless the believer shall, through his steadfast adherence to principle, win the impenitent, he will, as is much more common, become discouraged and sell his religious principles for the poor companionship of one who has no connection with heaven. {4T 507.3}

It looks like selfishness is not totally gone from believers.

Given that human nature, He "has carried the same into the highest heaven."

[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

It looks like selfishness is not totally gone from believers.

1) You said sinless, immature Adam had no problem at all without merit. But sinful, mature Adam has huge problems without merit. You have two cases, both without merit, but one has a problem and the other is OK.

2) Find one place where she speaks favorably of the CORRUPT channels of humanity. Human channels can be good, but find one place where she said CORRUPTION is good.

Truth must be allowed to exercise its cleansing power upon the lives of these rulers. {RH, November 28, 1907 par. 7}

The blood of Christ will avail for none but those who feel their need of its cleansing power. {RH, November 18, 1909 par. 5}

The atonement and the intercession of Christ in their behalf should inspire the human agent with zeal and earnestness to set forth the truth and the riches of Divine grace, and the quickening influence of the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit will avail to touch the heart and convert the soul. {21MR 294.5}

There are many who need the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. {2SAT 265.5}

Through the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, we can be made vessels meet for the Master's use. {BCL 56.3}

When in speech and action you give way to passion, you are acting as a sinner, and as a sinner you are under condemnation, needing to repent and be converted. But when the life is surrendered to the cleansing power of the truth, a change takes place. God's Spirit is at work in the heart, bringing the truth forward into the strong light of distinct consciousness. The spirit of stubborn resistance is taken away, and a life-giving power takes possession of mind and heart. This experience you need daily to have. As the repentant sinner pleads for the cleansing efficacy of Christ's grace, a voice speaks to him, saying, "A new heart will I give thee. The soul is cleansed, the highest powers of the being are roused to action." {BCL 66.2}

Those who have experienced the cleansing efficacy of the blood of Christ upon their hearts will be like their Master, pure, peaceable, and lowly of heart. {LS80 211.3}

Praise the Lord that you have felt the cleansing efficacy of the Saviour's blood. {UL 335.5}

If the truth is enthroned in our hearts, we shall live its principles. Our lives will reveal its cleansing efficacy. {ST, November 29, 1899 par. 7}

Excellent point! And this brings us back to my first attempt to correct the lie being perpetrated on this thread.

God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same (human nature) into the highest heaven. It is the “Son of man” who shares the throne of the universe. It is the “Son of man” whose name shall be called, “Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6. The I AM is the Daysman between God and humanity, laying His hand upon both. He who is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,” is not ashamed to call us brethren. Hebrews 7:26; 2:11.{Hvn 72.2}

Jesus brought sinful flesh into heaven? If this is the same "human nature" that He had on earth then there is something amiss in how you interpret those texts Mt Man.

And here is another point...

Through inspiration Mrs White calls babies "innocent" over and over. They may be born fallen, without the divine nature, the "white robe of Character" but their brain is a blank slate ready to be impressed with neural input and because they have not reached the age of accountability, so they are innocent..

Jesus was born just like every other child who had ever been born before or after. The main difference is that His Father was not from earth and He had HIS character, and he had a mother who was completely convicted in righteousness who set out to raise Him with the grace of God leading her. This Character is the only advantage Jesus had in this life. He was raised among fallen human beings in the likeness of sinful flesh, but He had His Fathers Character. The divine nature blended with the Human.

"The Bible says of Jesus, “And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him.” As He worked in childhood and youth, mind and body were developed. He did not use His physical powers recklessly, but gave them such exercise as would keep them in health, that He might do the best work in every line. He was not willing to be defective, even in the handling of tools. He was perfect as a workman, as He was perfect in character. By precept and example Christ has dignified useful labor."5{AH 507.2}

Without their earthly father being perfect other babies have the disadvantage of a sinful influence and as soon as the child establishes wrong thought processes on the blank slate of the mind they are already going down the wrong path leading to sin.

"The parents’ work must begin with the child in its infancy, that it may receive the right impress of character ere the world shall place its stamp on mind and heart." 3{CG 193.3}

This is the development of the mind and there are several books from Mrs White that deals with this issue throughout. "Mind Character and Personality" "Child Guidance" etc.

Jesus had the character of His heavenly dad not His earthly dad.

He never developed sinful habits or desires. That is where sinful flesh is developed. He never developed sinful flesh.

If APL and Mt Man could at least agree with this then we would be on the right path here.

His flesh was the same fallen sinful flesh as man when He was here. That is the point. Otherwise He is not our example. And when He by Himself purged our sin, THEN, He sat down at the right hand.

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} It is our privilege to possess Christ's nature.

The contrast between what you wrote and what Ellen White wrote is striking.

The cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, the cleansing power of the truth, the cleansing efficacy of Christ's grace empowers believers to mature daily in the fruit of the Spirit.

Let me put it in mathematical terms: I say A=B. You say, No, C=D. It's a non-sequitur extravaganza.

You say Jesus had sinful flesh. I say inspired writings say that holy flesh qualifies as human nature. It is obvious that I have gone into a tooic you are unable to comprehend, or even address. Let's just leave it at that, lest you get more confused. This topic goes far deeper than the "Jesus had sinful flesh" mantra. Good day.

M: "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} It is our privilege to possess Christ's nature.

A: I'm glad to hear that from you. So clarify this for me: Is Christ's nature, which is promised to us, which is far above Adam's forfeited nature, the carnal, sinful nature? Is sinful flesh far above Adam's holy flesh?

Education is but a preparation of the physical, intellectual, and spiritual powers for the best performance of all the duties of life. {CCh 168.1}

The tendencies of the physical nature, unless under the dominion of a higher power, will surely work ruin and death. {CSA 56.4}

Communion with God through his works, and the contemplation of the grand truths intrusted to the inheritors of faith, had elevated and ennobled his spiritual nature, broadening and strengthening the mind as no other study could do. {CE 225.3}

To transgress His law--physical, mental, or moral--is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. {CG 55.2}

Diet has "a direct influence upon his physical, mental, and moral nature".{CG 166.4}

The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. {Con 31.3}

In the gratification of perverted appetite and passion, even professed Christians cripple nature in her work and lessen physical, mental, and moral power. {CD 164.1}

They should be capable of rearing them in physical, mental, and moral health. Parents should study the laws of nature. {DG 202.2}

The manna with which He fed them in the wilderness was of a nature to promote physical, mental, and moral strength. {Ed 38.2}

A close sympathy exists between the physical and the moral nature. . . Indulgence of appetite strengthens the animal propensities, giving them the ascendancy over the mental and spiritual powers. {Mar 81.2}

The lower propensities are to be kept under control of the higher powers. {2MCP 377.2}

If permitted, the lower passions will obtain the mastery over the whole being. Christ would have these passions subject to the higher powers of the mind. {ST, March 1, 1899 par. 7}

Self-control can be complete only in the strength which comes from Jesus Christ, ever true to the rightful dominion of the higher powers and attributes having dominion over the lower. {20MR 54.1}

The experimental knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ whom He has sent, transforms man into the image of God. It gives to man the mastery of himself, bringing every impulse and passion of the lower nature under the control of the higher powers of the mind. {COL 114.2}

Some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences, yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions. This is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Why is this weakness? It is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise, until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers. Men and women lack principle. They are dying spiritually, because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone. The lower passions of their nature have taken the reins, and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion. The soul is held in lowest bondage. Sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity. {CG 446.2}

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 5:1; 3:31; 8:3, 4. {PP 373.1}

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam. {4BC 1147.4}

Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. His divine attributes were withheld from relieving His soul anguish or His bodily pains. {5BC 1124.2}

Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. He was able to resist the temptation of Satan through His dependence upon the divine power of His heavenly Father, as He was subject to His will, and obedient to all His commands. He kept His Father's statutes, precepts, and laws. He was continually seeking counsel of God, and was obedient to His will. {SD 128.2}

When God gave Jesus to our world, He included all heaven in that one gift. He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature. He has made provision that we may be complete in His Son, not having our own righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ. {HM, March 1, 1898 par. 1}

We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

To all who receive him as a personal Saviour he gives power to become the sons of God. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth. . . . And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." All who become the sons of God are possessed of his nature. They dwell in Christ as Christ dwells in God. Converted to the truth, imbued with the Holy Spirit, they are under the transforming influence of divine grace. The life of self-indulgence they once lived is changed to a life of service. {RH, May 2, 1912 par. 7}

The enemy was overcome by Christ in his human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory. {YI, April 25, 1901 par. 11}

Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man's nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. {1SM 408.1}

He who took humanity upon Himself knows just how to sympathize with the sufferings of humanity. He had the same nature as the sinner although He knew no sin, in order that He might be able to condemn sin in the flesh and might be able to sympathize with those who were in the difficulties, dangers, and temptations that beset His own path while He walked with men. They are to obtain help as He Himself obtained it, through a vital connection with God. {10MR 176.1}

God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh that He might condemn sin in the flesh and reveal the fact to heaven, to the worlds unfallen and also the fallen world, that through the power of divine grace, through partaking of the divine nature, man need no longer stand under the curse of the law or remain in transgression. {14MR 82.3}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

It sure doesn't look like Jesus leaves us the way He finds us. There is a great TRANSFORMATION to be wrought. A CONVERSION is needed. To say that Jesus came in as bad a shape as sinful man, and that He offers to give us that same image, is silly. No, Jesus was better than the sinful lot of this planet. So He calls us to accept Him and be CHANGED into His image, which is, obviously, not the same image that we have naturally. . . I don't understand why people say Jesus had the same exact nature as a sinner. They must be focusing on the non-evil, non-depraved part of sinful human nature.

You mut have missed the SOP I quoted to reach my conclusion. Again, you miss some important details that lead you to very imbalanced views that tend toward error.

This is reminiscent of AT Jones' experience. You are in danger of losing your way as he did if you continue to ignore the big picture. Please open you eyes, MM. I'm giving you information on a platter but you keep pretending they dont exist.

That we might become acquainted with His divine character and life, Christ took our nature and dwelt among us. Divinity was revealed in humanity; the invisible glory in the visible human form. Men could learn of the unknown through the known; heavenly things were revealed through the earthly; God was made manifest in the likeness of men. So it was in Christ’s teaching: the unknown was illustrated by the known; divine truths by earthly things with which the people were most familiar.{COL 17.1}

It looks like we are saying the same thing. Jesus was like a born-again, transformed, converted believer = no sinful defective traits of character, no selfishness, no sinful propensities. Nevertheless, they retain sinful flesh. They must resist its unholy clamorings. And, everything they think, say, and do requires the merits of Jesus to be acceptable.

"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted".
...
Christ took Adam's post fall nature.

Was Adam's post fall nature corrupted?

The divine nature, combined with the human, made Him capable of yielding to Satan's temptations. Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. To suppose He was not capable of yielding to temptation places Him where He cannot be a perfect example for man, and the force and the power of this part of Christ's humiliation, which is the most eventful, is no instruction or help to human beings. {16MR 182.3}

Did Adam receive the words of Satan in place of the words of God? If so, then there is your answer.

The divine nature, combined with the human, made Him capable of yielding to Satan's temptations. Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. To suppose He was not capable of yielding to temptation places Him where He cannot be a perfect example for man, and the force and the power of this part of Christ's humiliation, which is the most eventful, is no instruction or help to human beings. {16MR 182.3}

Did Adam receive the words of Satan in place of the words of God? If so, then there is your answer.

The enemy was overcome by Christ in his human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory. {YI, April 25, 1901 par. 11}

Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man's nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. {1SM 408.1}

He who took humanity upon Himself knows just how to sympathize with the sufferings of humanity. He had the same nature as the sinner although He knew no sin, in order that He might be able to condemn sin in the flesh and might be able to sympathize with those who were in the difficulties, dangers, and temptations that beset His own path while He walked with men. They are to obtain help as He Himself obtained it, through a vital connection with God. {10MR 176.1}

God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh that He might condemn sin in the flesh and reveal the fact to heaven, to the worlds unfallen and also the fallen world, that through the power of divine grace, through partaking of the divine nature, man need no longer stand under the curse of the law or remain in transgression. {14MR 82.3}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

A: It sure doesn't look like Jesus leaves us the way He finds us. There is a great TRANSFORMATION to be wrought. A CONVERSION is needed. To say that Jesus came in as bad a shape as sinful man, and that He offers to give us that same image, is silly. No, Jesus was better than the sinful lot of this planet. So He calls us to accept Him and be CHANGED into His image, which is, obviously, not the same image that we have naturally. . . I don't understand why people say Jesus had the same exact nature as a sinner. They must be focusing on the non-evil, non-depraved part of sinful human nature.

M: It looks like we are saying the same thing. Jesus was like a born-again, transformed, converted believer = no sinful defective traits of character, no selfishness, no sinful propensities. Nevertheless, they retain sinful flesh. They must resist its unholy clamorings. And, everything they think, say, and do requires the merits of Jesus to be acceptable.

But asygo says, He was not in the the likeness of sinful flesh.

He did not have sin in His body.

AT Jones and others of his time were right on!

APL, Are you saying that Christ had sin in His body? If so, then specifically what sin did Christ have in His body?