Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?

I was listening to a sermon by Pastor Bill Hughes yesterday and heard him say he didn't know who the Fit Man was. I was surprised because I didn't realize this was so difficult.

1) The Fit Man can not be a member of the angelic host.

2) The Fit Man can not be a member of the human race.

3) The Fit Man must be a member of both, the angelic host and the human race.

I believe the Fit Man is Jesus Christ.

What do you believe?

The Holy Spirit....as manifested at the day of atonement when Jesus got baptised("legal" death) by John the Baptist and was brought to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit (= the fit man in Lev 16)to be tempted by the devil.

When you read Lev 16, the two goats had to be without blemish and represented Jesus for the lot could fall on either one. Like the first dove, the first goat had to die, the second goat was sent in the wilderness to Azazel. This type was the same for the second dove that was release into the field.

Blessings Elle,

But, how is the Holy Spirit part of the congregation? How is the Holy Spirit a man?

Lev 16 doesn't say the man was from the congregation does it? I looked for it in case I had missed it.


How can a goat be the man Jesus? How can the dove, the sheep, the bull, be also the man Jesus? How can the high priest (Aaron) be Jesus also to atone for our sins? So Jesus is the goats and Aaron at the same time? How could that be? But it is.

The Hebrew word for "fit" is 'ittiy that means "timely". Some translation rendered this word as "ready". A ready man, like the Holy Spirit was ready soon after Jesus came out of the water to lead Him into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Jesus was these two animals because His temple cleansing work have two main parts. The Bible tells us that baptism symbolize death which represented the first goat & the first dove that had to die. Coming out of the water = ressurection which represent an alive work (2nd living goat & 2nd alive dove). Two animals were needed to show Jesus two work and two comings:

The 1st is a death work where His death justify the world;
The 2nd is an alive work that has its basis from the 1st work shown by the 2nd dove is dipped in the blood of the first dove before it is released into the field. The first work is a Justification work, the second is the sanctification work where it deals with the devil in the wilderness.

I understand from this that Jesus fulfilled the type of the day of atonement at the beginning of His ministry so to show us the pattern of His two works that was reveal to us in Lev 14 & 16. I'm sure this type will be fullfilled again in a greater way at His second coming.

Elle wrote;

"How can a goat be the man Jesus? How can the dove, the sheep, the bull, be also the man Jesus? How can the high priest (Aaron) be Jesus also to atone for our sins? So Jesus is the goats and Aaron at the same time? How could that be? But it is."

Understood. But, how do we know these things about Jesus? Because the Bible tells us. There isn't anything in Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy that tells us the Holy Spirit is the Fit Man.

I personally believe there is another description of the Fit Man in the Bible, in Revelation 20:1-3.

There's too many elements in Rev 20:1-3 that are missing to use this text as a strong support to conclude that Jesus is that angel and it is related to Lev 16. But it does seem to have some elements of relevance. I just don't understand what Rev 20:1-3 means nor have I studied it. Where's the death and the live symbology that is the main elements and central point of these two sacrifices(lev 14 & 16)? You do have an angel(possibly the fit man) and sheol(=bottomless pit=could be an extension of the death of the soul) and the devil.......its possible. Tx for sharing, I will keep this in mind and check this relevance in my studies.

Here are the key elements of the Atonement:

Lev 14..................Lev 16......................Jesus baptism

a)1st Dove sacrifice.........1st goat sacrifice........Jesus under water(=death)

b)2nd Dove alive.............2nd goat alive............Jesus raise from baptism(=alive)

c)2nd Dove release in open field....2nd goat release in wilderness....Jesus led to the wilderness

d)priest..............Fit(ready) man takes 2nd goat ......Holy Spirit leads Jesus to wilderness

e)n/a ................Azazel..........................devil

f)cleanse lepersy(slow death of body)...cleanse the temple(=our body)...Jesus overcame 3 temptations that causes death to man

g)atonement sacrifice.....Day of atonement............Day of atonement


Another relevants that scripture shows is the 2nd dove was dip in blood of 1st dove. This shows that His(Jesus) 2nd work(=sanctification) is based on His first work(death=justification). The sanctification process that we undergo is shown in the Type by having the pillar of smoke and fire(=Holy Spirit & Jesus) leading the Israelites(=us) into the "wilderness" after Passover(=our spiritual death at our baptism in accepting Jesus and applying His blood on the lintel(forehead) and posts(ears) of our house(body))like the Israelites who wondered in the wilderness for 40 years(Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days) before they entered Canaan(=work to bring the sword to the nations). After His baptism, Jesus went in the wilderness for 40 days before He entered His ministry to bring the sword(word of God) to the nations.

You mention in your first post that you thought that Jesus was the fit man. I think that is correct also. Like Jesus was represented as the animals and being at the same time the priest, I believe the fit man represents Him also but in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Some in our Church believe the Holy Spirit can be either the Father or Jesus manifested. According to my understanding and studies, I think they are right.

According to the words of Jesus you can be a man fit for the kingdom. The condition is that you do not look back.

On the other hand you have this Fit Man in Leviticus 16 who was qualified to bring the "devil" into the wilderness.

Would you like to do that job?

Elle wrote;

"There's too many elements in Rev 20:1-3 that are missing to use this text as a strong support to conclude that Jesus is that angel and it is related to Lev 16. But it does seem to have some elements of relevance."

I disagree. Ellen White writes in Great Controversy 485.3 that the scapegoat set unto the wilderness is Satan bound for a thousand years on this desolate earth. I believe this directly connects Leviticus 16 with Revelation 20.

I believe the angel in Revelation 20 is Michael the Archangel, who is Jesus, who comes and chains Satan to the earth while it is desolate. I believe He does this at His Second Coming.

Also, the two goats represent the judgment made by the Father as to who is innocent and who is guilty. The separating of these two classes, who could be called the sheep and the goats or the wheat and the tares, also took place at the Second Coming of Christ.

So, Christ will come as the "Son of Man" and Michael the Archangel.

Johann wrote;

"Would you like to do that job?"

No way! And I am glad I can't do it.

It took a lot of cleansing afterwards.

A good case can be made that the fit man represents the 144,000.

Johann and Alchemy, there's a very severe mis-translation that is replicated in many version of the Bible. The second goat of Lev 16 IS NOT Azazel which is also mistranslated as scapegoat(detail on this below). These mis-translations brought a lot of confusion to everyone for centuries.

Below is a Post done in the Is the Scapegoat Jesus or Satan? discussion. That will explain in detail the 4 aspects of mis-translations done in Lev 16.

======== Post # 13861 ===================

...
The point is the KJV and other version has added more words ...

Let's start from Lev 16:8 “Av Lv 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat(Azazel).”

A. Let’s make a note on the word “the”. Highlited in red above is ADDED text. In Hebrew when they want to emphasize on a noun the Hebrew letter Hey is used as a prefix which is translated as "the". The masoretic text have put a Hey before sa’iyr(H8163, Shaggy, a he-goat), however none is put in front of Y-hv-h(3068,self Existent) nor in front of azaz’el(5799, stout goat). However the KJV has added in each of these noun a “the” in the translation for the sake of easy English flowing sentences. That’s fine as long as the intended meaning is not distorted.

B. In this text, Lamed was only used in front of both Y-hv-h and azaz’el to mean “for”. Following the flow and the context in this sentences there was one sin-offering that was for the Lord, and the other was for Azazel(the stout goat). By preserving the name Azazel as a stout goat, we see here that the second goat (live one of the sin offering) is i)for the stout goat and ii)is not the stout goat itself. i) and ii) has two complete different meanings. We lost the intend meaning by translating it as ii). The way they did it is as followed:

• #1.First Srong has incorrect defined the origin of the word azaz’el. ".
  Originally Posted By: elle

  The Hebrew word “aza’zel” is best translated as “Azazel” and not as “goat of departure”.
  

  • i) Strong has erroneously defined it as deriving from ‘ez (h5795 – she goat ) and ‘azal (h235 – to go away). azal-ez does not fit together well and does not make up azazel.
    
    
  • ii)It better derives from ‘azaz (h5810 -- to be stout ) and ‘el (h410 – god) -- fitting together perfectly azaz-el meaning a goat god also known as Pan, by which the Isreaelites where worshipping also in all their high places.
  
  
• #2. The KJV and other version has added “the” in front of the incorrect definition of azaz’el, and voila, they have transformed the second goat of the sin offering into being Azaz’el instead of being sent To Azaz’el. This has totally distorted the intended meaning.
  
  
• #3. And we have not tested nor verified the soundness of this translation. Also we have disregarded other segment in Lev 16 that is in disharmony with this translation. Here’s how :
  i) the two goats were to be sin-offering (Lev 16:5)
  ii) All sin offering needed to be without blemish, that means the second goat cannot represent Satan because Satan is full of blemish.
  iii) it is not in harmony with the second witness of this law that the Lord provided in Lev 14.
  iv) it is not in harmony with the laws of liability
  v) It is not in harmony with other scriptures revealing the fulfillment of the day of atonement.
  

Now let’s look at Lev 16:10 again.

In Blue -- regular KJV.
[In red]-- incorrect KJV translation.
(In green) -- what the Masoretic text read.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat, on which the lot fell [to be the] (for) Azazel, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go [for a ] (to) Azazel into the wilderness. "

To translate ...

• a)"to be the" Azazel ... instead of " for" Azazel,
  
• b)" for a " Azazel into the wilderness ... instead of "to" Azazel into the wilderness

...a) & b) in red changes the whole meaning. They have turn the 2nd goat of the sin offering into being Azazel instead of being sent To Azazel.

It is not a question of changing lamed to a different translation, it is a question that in a)

• 1. They incorrectly translated azaz’el into scapegoat
• 2. they have added the word “the” to go with “scapegoat”
• 3. and they have added the verb “be”
  
  “the” and “be” are added words and are not in the original text. 1. 2. And 3. has changed the whole meaning of the text.
  
  
• 4. Also in the section b) they have added the word "a" which again was not in the original text and have distorted the intended meaning with it.

... The problem lies in all the points that I have brought above.

I’m not saying that Strong or whoever wrote KJV and whoever else who wrote the other translations, had a malintent. They tried to translate as best as they knew and that’s how they understood the gospel in their days and personally. Translation cannot be totally devoided from personal biases or from the influences of the current understanding of the time. They try as much as they could, however, personal understanding does come out through the translation. That’s why there are many different translation today. Not one is that much better than the other. At times the original text needs to be verified, word studies needs to be done to extract G-d's true intended meaning, and we need to test all things with the Law and the manner of the law(Is 8:20).

Blessings glenm,

Welcome to Maritime 2nd Advent.

Well, I have never seen a good case for the 144,000. Please, feel free to show us here.

Welcome back!

Quite a point!

When will the 144,000 appear?

When will their cleansing take place as required by the Fit Man in Leviticus 16?

Will the 144,000 be chasing the devil into the "wilderness" at the beginning or close of the millenium?

Blessings Elle,

The scapegoat does represent Satan. I believe Strong's and the english/greek lexicon of the nineteenth century to be very reliable and accurate.

Well, other scholar differ from Strong's definition of Azazel. Then of course many scholar differ in translations(that's why we have many different translations). Actually, most of those translations of Lev 16 are not in harmony with the masoretic text. If I were to choose over a translation and the source text, I would choose the source text to be correct over a translation of the source text.


Also, if you speak to any practicing Jews who keep the law, they will tell you that the second goat is NOT Azazel. They can read Hebrew and know how the text obviously read. I have verified this with a rabbi and with a practicing Jew. Both said that Azazel was a mountain that the "fit man" brought the second goat to. And I have verified on a map if there was a mountain called Azazel...and there is one.

So our understanding and translation of that text is totally false on many levels, mainly we are not in harmony with the source text itself.

Elle,

Etymologically you have a point, and you emphasize a danger with Strong: Many unskilled Bible students use Strong as a final authority not realizing that Strong often gives but the "face" meaning of a word, often with little consideration to the Hebrew or Greek grammar, which is so different from regular English grammar.

As for the KJV you do have all these words in italics which show that these are words added by the translators to make the text comply with the [Catholic] teachings of the Church of England - or what the translators thought should be the right meaning.

By stating that I hold that God used the KJV as a mighty tool for the salvation of souls.

In this case your case is as strong as the KJV text, but it does not fully void the meaning given by the KJV. This is one more case where we cannot depend fully on the single text but we have to get our true meaning by comparing what is said by the teachings of the Bible and the symbolism used in this case.

??? I don't know what exactly what your refering to. I did not use Strong as a final authority in looking at the word Azazel. I did the opposite by challenging his definition. Maybe you mis that part.

Strong was not a linguistic. He had a large team working under him to produce that work. I'm not saying that Strong's work is all wrong. I think most of it is right. But I know that no scholar or man has it all right. That's why I will not take any scholar as an authority. However I do refer to many scholar's work with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.



I don't know what you mean with the teachings of the Church of England here. All I know is that many English Bible version does not comply with the original Masoretic text. The Tanakh(Jewish Bible that is also translated in English) has translated this text correctly, and some other English translations.


I personally prefer the KJV because that's the version I'm accustom to; however I do know its limitation and have seen many faults(errors) in that version as it is found in any versions. All English translation fall short of the correct translation for these are all done by men who fall short in understanding all of the plan of salvation. So there's always some trouble texts where personal view leaks thru the translation.



Well, 4 mistakes by comparing to the Masoretic text found in these 2 texts is strong enough; but yes I agree the translated text needs to be in harmony with other texts. Which I have brought the parallele given in Lev 14 that is in harmony with the Masoretic text translation of Lev 16, besides how Jesus fulfilled it, beside how Jesus fulfills (the atonement) with the Israelites and with us today. Basically Lev 14 and Lev 16 describe the cleansing process that takes place in the two works of Christ: the justification and sanctification work.

Let me outline some of the key points.

1. The fit man is distinguished from the high priest, and we know the latter is Christ.

2. The fit man doesn't seem to be an angel, based on the description in 16:21 and 16:26.

3. It can be shown in various ways that the scapegoat is Satan. See for example GC 658.1.

4. Given this, it's the role of the fit man (human) to bind Satan. In what way do the 144,000 enter into this picture?

5. Before going further, there are a couple of foundational points that need to be mentioned.

In the first place, the 144,000 are NOT he-men and he-women who stand up and throw their weight around in their own strength. Anything they do in the closing work is based on them first learning to depend fully on Christ.

Another foundational point here is how to answer the question,
"Does God need humans?" In some deep absolute sense the answer is "no". However, God has deliberately chosen to make humans integral to the plan of salvation, and thus He has chosen to need humans to complete that plan. We see this principle at work in stories like that of Job, and the SOP says that Job vindicated God by his actions (Ed 156.1).

6. So how do the 144,000 serve to bind Satan? One clue can be found in Revelation 7:1-4, which says that the 144,000 must be sealed before the great time of trouble commences. In other words, God is waiting on this sealing.

Why does the sealing matter? It matters in part because Satan's hold on this world is based on inducing men and women to sin (John 12:31), and Satan had no hold on Christ for the same reason (John 14:30).

The SOP directly applies this to the role of the 144,000:


The SOP goes on to say that Christ's honor in directly involved in bringing His people to perfection:


7. For Satan to be vanquished, his hold must be broken on at least some group of people in this world. It's not just a matter of the Father and Son arbitrarily binding him at some random point; this process requires the involvement of some group of redeemed humans.

8. There's a lot more that could be said here. However, it may be best to wrap up this post, and to do so there's another quite fascinating SOP quote that talks directly about the fit man:

I am in agreement with you on this point. Those were the orders King James gave to his translators, that their wording had to comply with the teachings of the Church of England. Many miss this point.

True, and yet we are now facing a strong point in connection with the 144,000 which I am not prepared to reject. I think this is a question we have to consider from various angles.

Let's not be so hard on Strong's. He got his information from the Gesenius and Joseph Thayer's lexicons.

Now, it is true he just used highlights from these lexicons, but those lexicons are still available, and I trust them both.

Blessings glenm,

I understand our need of sanctification. But, this doesn't in any way make the 144,000 the Fit man. Jesus was born of Mary and raised as a human being. In Luke 11:21-23, Jesus describes Himself as the stronger man over Satan. Clearly Jesus is the Fit Man.

I just want to collect all my thought on this topic so far;

1) In Leviticus 16:8-10, 20-22, we read that the Fit Man took the scapegoat, or live goat out to the wilderness and left it where it could not enter Israel again.

2) Sister White explained in GC 485.3 that the scapegoat being left in the wilderness was Satan being bound to the earth while it is desolate for a thousand years.

3) I believe this directly connects to Revelation 20:1-3 where an angel comes down with a chain and Satan is bound a thousand years. Because this angel is able to overcome Satan, I believe this is Michael the Archangel, or Jesus Christ that binds Satan to this earth at His Second Coming.

4) In Luke 11:21-23 Jesus says He is the stronger man who overcomes the strong man who is Satan.

To me anyway, this is a simple conclusion to draw that Jesus Christ in the Fit Man of Leviticus 16.

I think the 144K and Jesus when they will be united, they will be the same unit so in some extended form they form the person of Jesus-Christ.

The 144K are the overcomers (the uncorrupt priest in Ezk 44 that has access to the robe of linen [=robe of righteousness] and have access to the Most Holy Place). They make up the body of Christ; thus they are Jesus because they are His body. Jesus is the head and the 144K-overcomers are His body.

The others (corrupt priest & Princes & people of the land in Ezk 44) do not have the robe of linen and do not have access to the Most Holy place. They need to be ministered to by Jesus and His Sons(144K).

The book of Hebrews says that the Levitical Day of Atonement typified Calvary.


1. The Levitical Day of Atonement was a ritual cleansing foreshadowing the cross - "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh", whereas ... Calvary was the fulfillment that provided TRUE cleansing - "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

2. Christ came as High Priest to offer sacrifice for the cleansing of the sanctuary. The sacrifice was His body. Therefore, He was the "Eternal Spirit" who offered His "living body" as a living sacrifice. Put another way, He was the same "Eternal Spirit" who took His "living body" to the grave, a barren wilderness as it were. Nevertheless, He returned again into the camp (from the grave) and appeared as the glorified "High Priest", fully clothed in glory to bless the congregation of the saints.

3. In short, the animals (bulls, goats, heifers, etc.) typified the BODY of Christ, but the human beings (the High Priest, the fit man, etc.) typified the ETERNAL SPIRIT, the person of Christ Himself.

///

The Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 days is the Sanctuary of the new covenant, for the vision of the treading down and cleansing, is after the crucifixion, so it can't be at the cross.

Daniel 8: 13-14 How long is the the vision with the daily, and the transgression of desolation, in which both the sanctuary and the host are to be trodden under foot?
8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Rev 11:2 for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months.

Hebrews 9:23 It was necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these [blood of calves and of goats]; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

We see that the Sanctuary of the new covenant is not on earth, but in heaven. -

The true tabernacle which forms a part of the new covenant Sanctuary, was made and pitched by the Lord, in contrast the earthly sanctuary was built by men following the pattern God gave them of things in heaven.

Hebrews 9:1 For the first covenant had ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.
8:5 as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, He said, that you make all things according to the pattern shown to you in the mount.

9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


The Sanctuary of the new covenant is connected with New Jerusalem, like the Sanctuary of the first covenant was connected with Old Jerusalem. During the old covenant the priests of that covenant ministered in the earthly sanctuary, ultimately established in Old Jerusalem, so in the new covenant our High Priest ministers in the real sanctuary in heaven. To these places, the New Testament consistently applies the name "Sanctuary,"

ATONEMENT

The atonement was central to the sanctuary services of the old covenant, and it is central in the Gospel of the New Covenant; the former was to teach us that of the Gospel, it is very important to be understood.
The priests made atonement for the people in connection with their daily ministration, but this was different from that made on the tenth day of the seventh month.

Atonement for the individual was necessary BEFORE the day of atonement could make atonement for the whole "redeemed" congregation.

Read through Leviticus chapters 4-6 and see the stress placed upon individuals who have sinned bringing their sacrificial animal so the "priest will make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him". (Lev. 4:20,26,31,35; 5:6,10,13,16,18; 6:7)

Even on the Day of Atonement, the earthly priest first had to make individual atonement for themselves before they could administer the Day of Atonement Service.

This prerequisite atonement was provided by Christ upon the cross, and is essential for everyone to accept in preparation for the Day of Atonement.

DAY OF ATONEMENT The High Priest goes into the Most holy place
"To make an atonement for all Israel, for all their sins once a year." "On the tenth day of the seventh month," verses 34,29.
This was the most important day of the year. The whole nation having had their sins previously forgiven by the atonement made in the outer court and holy place, now assemble about their Sanctuary,

In making the former or daily atonement, the priests went no further than into the Holy Place; but to make the latter they entered the Holy of Holies - the former was made for individual forgiveness of sins, the latter for the whole nation of Israel for the blotting out of sins.

The former was made for the forgiveness of sins, the latter for blotting them out - the former needed to be made prior -- on any day, the latter only on the tenth day of the seventh month.

The Jewish religious year began with Passover; typifying Christ's death and His blood for our individual cleansing.
The Jewish religious year ended with the Day of Atonement followed by Tabernacles -- typifying the blotting out of sin and entering the heavenly Canaan.

On the day of the heavenly Atonement --

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were set up, and the Ancient of days did sit,
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
7:13 and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days
Rev. 3:5 (Jesus says) He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


AT THE END OF THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

Lev. 16:20 And when he (the high priest) has made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Now how are those sins placed on the second "goat" and who is the fit man ????

To understand we look back over the whole of the Great Controversy --

Who is responsible for sin?

Lucifer blamed God and His law as being unfair. He aimed to set himself above God. " I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" (Isaiah 14:13) he boasted.

He has deceived the majority of humans into thinking that it is God's fault that bad things happen. How often do we hear things like -- "how can God be good when little children die of cancer, or whole villages are swept away by an earthquake", etc. etc. Why did God create beings who would do dastardly things?
They don't seem to realize it's not God's doings, but the sinful choices of human beings over the course of history.

Christ as our Creator stepped in and took the full fury of the blame. He bore all the sins of the world to the cross and felt the guilt of their weight, being crushed by them.

But was He responsible for sin?

Who is responsible for sin?

-- the responsibility is two fold.

1. we need to acknowledge our responsibility for our sins, and come to Christ for forgiveness and cleansing. Come --
Rev. 1:5 Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
He took our guilt that we might have life and righteousness!

Those who do not take responsibility for their own sin and do not come to Christ for cleansing will bear their own sin into eternal death.

2. Satan is the author and originator of sin, the tempter and deceiver that has played upon human minds and emotions causing all sorts of havoc, destruction and misery in this world.
In the end EVERYONE, even the lost, will realize this.
They will --
"Isa. 14:16 They that see thee (Lucifer/Satan) shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the one that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
The ultimate responsibility for and of sin will be placed upon him who originated and perpetuated it. He brought sin into the universe and to this planet and sin will go out with him and all who have accepted his evil way.

THE FIT MAN

I too believe this is Christ!
He is "fit" in every way.
Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

At the second coming Christ is no longer bearing our sins -- He, like the high priest on the day of atonement, has transferred them -- the result is that Satan is bound to this empty, desolate ruin of a planet-- ruined by sin.

However, God's people (possibly the 144,000) do have a part in placing the responsibility for sin on it's rightful perpetrators.

When dealing with ourselves and others help them to recognize their own responsibility and need for Christ and His salvation.

And secondly recognizing we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against evil principalities -- fallen angels.

The end point --
Recognize and rejoice in the goodness, love, mercy, holiness, righteousness of God.

Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven, in earth, and under the earth;
2:11 And every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Psalm 32:4 for all his ways are just: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Two excellent posts dedication.

That's a very interesting view that has much validity (well at least to me).

There are some truth that Christ typified all the animal sacrifices, however He was our example and came to show us the way --- the way for us to become all these living sacrifices. Meaning not necessarily in fulfilling the literal death of animals, or burning in fire like all those burnt offering or hanging on the cross like Jesus died, but a spiritual death (entirely submitting our will to the Lord Almighty's plan like Jesus did at His baptism and just before suffering the cross). There's a physical death and a spiritual death. The spiritual death is what we die at our baptism, and it is the death Jesus died at His baptism and at Getsemany, and it is the death Paul said he dies daily.

So Yes, I was already seeing that all those animal sacrifices in the law was mainly the type of us --a prophecy of greater things to come that will also be fulfilled in us. So yes I agree with you, the animals in a sacrifice service points to His body(us).

And Yes, the High Priest and the "Fit Man" (or "ready Man" in other version) is the Head (Jesus-Christ) or as you worded it very well "typified the ETERNAL SPIRIT, the person of Christ Himself".

May I ask where you got this revelation?

Throwing the responsibility to others comes from MAN. It was the first thing Adam and Eve did when they sin. The Man blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent. Neither took the responsibility for their sin.

Are we reducing the Lord to a woman? Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?

This is not in harmony with His laws of liability.

Responsibility for sin goes to the owner of the creature. The Lord created Satan and is responsible for everything He does.

We read in Exodus 21:28-31,

28 And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.

At the beginning, the serpent, or Satan, brought death to come on Adam and all mankind. Prior to that, SDAs believe that Satan caused 1/3 of the angels to fall; thus the Lord knew that Satan was in the habit of goring. So according to the spirit of His own law of liability, the owner of the ox was responsible to confined His ox(=Satan) immediately. The Lord did NOT confined Satan(the ox) after the Heaven incidence and let the ox gore Adam and Eve. Furthermore, the Lord did NOT confine Satan after He had gore Adam and Eve and the Bible tells us that Satan will only be confine at the Millennium (Rev 20:1-3).

According to the law of liability, the owner of the ox must die. Jesus is not only the owner of the ox(Satan) but His creator. And Jesus did fulfill the judgment of this Law by dying on the cross willingly, not only to fulfill this judgment but mainly because He loved us before anything was created.

Does this make Jesus a sinner because He did not confine His ox (Satan) right away? No, it doesn’t, because the proper definition of sin is “missing the target”. Man always miss the target when they break a law, but God is wise and able to use His law to make everything good at the end by fulfilling all the laws and its judgments. Jesus planed to die and put the plan of salvation in place and planned to fulfill all these laws before He created the world.

This would take another discussion to really see this, but to summarize it, out of Hiw wisdom and love for us the Lord made Himself LIABLE for all Sins. Lev 14 and 16 shows us how He will make it ALL GOOD by hiting all the targets this law of liability involves. He will ATONE for all sins and cleanse the temple (our body) that is illustrated in His two works:

1. Justification(thru His death) symbolized by the death of the first dove and the first goat and fulfills the law of liability that the OWNER MUST DIE.

2. Sanctification(thru His work via His body and His Holy Spirit) which is a “living work” symbolized by the 2nd live dove and the 2nd live goat. The 2nd goat is sent to the devil like Jesus was sent to face the devil in the wilderness for 40 days. Jesus is also the fit man that leads us to face the lies of the devil in our own wilderness experience.

The 2nd goat or the 2nd dove are not the devil or the scapegoat. Nor does the devil ATONES for sins. The responsibility for sins does not ultimately go to the devil. It goes to the OWNER of the devil according to His laws of LIABILITIES.

My understanding is that Jesus(via His Holy Spirit) is also the fit man also, that will lead us to face the lies of the devil in our own sanctification process to make us fit to become a living sacrifice ourselves and enter the ministry like Jesus showed us in His life pattern. So we may minister to others like Jesus has ministered to us, so they can also be led by the Holy Spirit to face the lies of the devil in their own sanctification process.

Elle wrote;

"Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?"

Satan is the originator of sin! There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for sin to exist. This is why what Satan did and has continued to do is so hideous. Satan didn't have any reason for any of these actions and feelings of his.

So, the lost will be held responsible for their own sins and Satan will pay for his own sins plus those of the redeemed. Satan is to be blamed for all those sins he will suffer for. Satan is to be blamed for the suffering and murder of Jesus Christ, God's Son!

We shouldn't feel sorry for Satan for anything. (I always hated that song by the Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil)

Your theory is conflicting with many scriptures. To name three main places:

1- The Lord said He created Evil : "AV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

2- The owner of the beast (devil) is liable for all of His beast(the devil) doings: 28 And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.

3. It is true that Man and satan hold part of the responsibility for sin, however the Lord said He does not impute their trespasses unto them. AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, [b]not imputing their trespasses unto them;[/b]

So your theory has to be adjusted to take these scriptures into account.

Regarding point #3, the Lord is ULTIMATELY responsible for all sins but that doesn't mean that there's no responsibility that man and the devil are responsible for. The Lord is going to use the law to teach us righteousness by bringing us to face the devil and our sins commited. Just because the Lord is using sins to teach us righteousness does not mean He is using our trespasses against us. He is using our trespasses for our benefit -- to teach us righteousness by giving us a chance to pay for our debt (see definition of redemption in Lev 25).

Is 26:9 "... for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

It is thru the law and the judgment of the law that man comes to learn righteousness. The Lord is using sin to teach all of us His righteousness.

Grace does not teach us righteousness :

AV Isa 26:10 Let favour [grace]be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Not only to the cross (where He give His flesh and blood in sacrifice), but to the grave as well. And those two places were typified on the Levitical Day of Atonement, respectively, by the altar of sacrifice outside the sanctuary and the barren wilderness outside the camp.

For the people, therefore:
1. His atoning blood was of the goat offered by the High Priest, and
2. His body which bore the sin of the world by the goat led into the wilderness.

When Jesus was done being crucified, as he hung upon the cross, when he was just about to give up the ghost, what did he say? "It is finished." That is, "I have provided full atonement for all to the very utmost. The deed has been signed in my blood." THEN AND ONLY THEN, he was taken away to the grave by Joseph of Aramathea and Nicodemus. But on the third day, he arose and appeared to many "within the camp" and blessed them saying, "Peace be unto you."

///

AMEN

It is satan that seeks to blame God for sin, and leads people to excuse their sinning on the same bases.

God created a perfect world, perfect angels, perfect humans, -- He did not create robots that looked like angels and humans. He created PERFECT beings with perfect minds and reasoning power.

Sin has no excuse, no reason and is the inexcusable disregard of God's law upon which the wellbeing and happiness of His creation is based.

Throwing responsibility of sin on God began at the very start of sin.
Adam blamed God for making Eve,(The woman whom you gave to be with me) Eve blamed God for making the serpent. Lucifer blamed God for making laws that supposedly restricted the freedom of the angels. (I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (Isa. 14:13)

SIN blames God and His law for the trouble that sin makes, when in reality that blame is the fuel for sin to keep burning fiercer and blocks recovery.
God and His law are not responsible for sin --
God and His throne of righteousness based upon His law of love is the very source of righteousness and peace, happiness and life.

In the end the whole universe will realize who is responsible for sin -- and it isn't God.



Actually God DID confine Satan --
He was confined to the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve were told to stay away from the "ox" or they would get "gored to death".

By disobeying God THEY chose to release the "ox" from his "pen" or tree and allow him to trample upon all their children.

But God can and will confine that "ox' if we come to Him. Christ will change our hearts and desires if we focus on Him and on His Word. He will cleanse us from sin and give us eternal life in a hereafter where there will be no "ox".

Yes, Christ did take the responsibility for our sins to the cross so we can have LIFE eternal if we come to Him.

Yet, in the end everyone will know where the REAL responsibility for all sin lies. And it is NOT God.

It is ONLY Grace that can teach true righteousness.

Experiences of the consequences of sin only leads to people complying outwardly because they don't want to experience the consequences, but grace changes the heart and desires from within and leads to true righteousness.

"grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:21

It is grace that releases us from the dominion of sin!
Romans 6:14,22 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
Now being made free from sin, we become servants to God, we have our fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Dedication, all the above that you said is not found in scriptures. Scripture does not say that Adam, nor Eve blame the Lord for their action. Also scripture does not say that Satan blamed the Lord in Gen 3 or what you say above in Isa 14:13. You need to be very careful with that. It’s very serious when we add to scriptures. That’s how teachings of men (heart idols) take roots and these will blind you.

There are some truth to what Adam and Eve said. It is true that it was the woman that first got deceived, and it is true that the serpent in the garden deceived her. Even if they would of truthfully acknowledge the Lord’s responsibility into this and had used it to blame Him; the thing is ALL BLAMING is not the right attitude no matter if what we say is correct.

There were 3 problems with Adam’s & Eve’s blaming :
1. They never acknowledge or confess their own part and fault in the events.
2. They lied or was deceitful by hiding their part and doing.
3. They didn’t acknowledge the Lord’s Sovereignty in making this event happen and submit by trusting in His wisdom and provision for their education.


You seem to not acknowledge the Law of liability. Or you want to ignore it exist and not apply this law to what happened in the garden. Ignoring will not make void that law nor the fact that the Lord is the owner of Satan and Man. According to that law, whatever they do, He is ultimately responsible for their action. There’s no way around it. That’s what the law of liability teaches and much more.

Remember, Jesus gaved these laws. He said He will fulfill them all. That includes the law of liabilities. He uses these laws to save men. "We know that all things work together for good" because we know that the Lord always can bring good out of evil by hitting all the targets in all things that He does. Sin is define as "a missing" or not hitting the Target.(see the Hebrew word kataw for sin. Compare Jud20:16 with Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God) It will take some time, but at the end all the target of His righteousness will be hit right in the center.


Putting Satan on earth where he can “gore to death” the whole human race is by far confinement. Satan was in heaven and should have been confined as soon as He started to “gore” other angels. A proper confinement is a place where the beast cannot do anyone any further harm. This was not done.


That’s non-sense and you're trying real hard to make the law of liability void.

Dedication, these texts does not say Grace teaches men righteousness. I acknowledge and understand that Grace has an important part in the plan of salvation.

What Isaiah 26:9,10 says clearly is that Grace does not teach righteousness. It is the Law or judgment of the Law that teaches man righteousness. Anyone that has children knows this basic principle. If you only give grace to your children when they do wrong, that will not teach them righteousness(to do right). What teaches them is correction (to bring a judgment on them depending on their action).

Here's is to bring back into context why we brought up Is 26:9,10

Blessings Elle,

Sin is never and can never be God's fault. God tried everything to save Lucifer and keep him from falling, but lucifer refused to listen and fell from grace and Heaven. That is when Lucifer became Satan never to return to righteousness.

Agreed. Let's remain true to this principle

GRACE

If we agree on the definition of the terms we use it gets easier to understand each other.

As a basic we use several synonyms.

Do we agree that

grace = forgiveness = justification = our ticket to heaven (salvation)

In advanced discussions we may want to make further definitions, but do we agree that what I stated above is basically what makes a person a child of God?

The next step comes within the realm of sanctification, where I personally object to calling it a lifelong process, becaue I believe it is an eternal process as we come closer and closer to our Creator throughout eternity. Some prefer to call this glorification, and that is all right.

Alchemy show me in the Bible where it says this or support this type of notion. These are man's invented ADDITION to the Bible. Man's speculation that was added because they did not know or understand the Lord's plan. These are not based on what scriptures says; these are based on what man thinks in a attempt to fill in gaps of what the Bible does not say.

Then to maintain man's speculation and theory, at times, Man needs to change some part of the Bible to fit their speculation as most translation did with Lev 16.

We need to be vigilente like the Bereans and check whatever is told to us if is truly what the Lord's Word really say. And if these are ADDITIONS to the Bible, then we are to test if these are in harmony with the Lord's laws and the way He has applied these(Is 8:20).

The Lord does send people revelation to fill in these blanks that the Bible at times does not gives details on. However, these will be in harnomy with the Lord's mind, laws and plan. These revelation are to be tested and the Holy Spirit needs to confirm these to other individuals. We should never take everything that someone said and treated as "truth". Even if that person is the apostle Paul and we know the Lord's mighty hand is upon him. Any man do not know all the truth. Paul said that himself. All men can have erred in some part of their understanding.

We SDAs have repeated the Israelites fatal error -- to back off from hearing truth directly from the Lord for ourself and relying on what the Lord said to another person(Moses in their days, and we have Ellen White).(read Ex 20:19) Despite Moses repeated the Lord's words with exaction most of the time (Moses failed a few times), this will never be a good substitute to the Holy Spirit. It is by hearing the personal Words and teachings of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us -- not the words spoken from Moses or Ellen White. Despite hearing the pure teachings of Moses, these Israelites all died(millions with the exception of 2, Joshua and Caleb) and did not enter the promise land.

Grace - definition from the Bible:
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Yes, we are "justified by his grace" as he bears our iniquities.

"justified by his grace" = "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many". Titus 3:7 vs Isaiah 53:11. His grace, is His knowledge of how to heal the problem.

"His" knowledge

(bold emphasis mine)


Blessings Elle,

My position is not a notion, but sound Biblical thought. The Bible clearly states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. Eze. 28:15, 16. So then we read in Isaiah 14:12-15 that Lucifer corrupted himself because of his beauty.

Lucifer created sin within himself without any temptation or cause or reason to do so! When Lucifer went to war against Christ in Heaven he became Satan. And so Satan created sin and not God. Satan is immensely evil without any possible reason.

Now, you quoted the verse that seems to say God created evil. When God brings judgment and destruction on a nation it is called evil, but this isn't sinful evil. This is God executing judgment on someone and nothing else.

So, we need to understand that the english word evil doesn't always have the same meaning in the Bible.

Blessings Alchemy.

Notice what I have highighted in red in your statement. None of the Bible text you brought says that or allude to this notion. That's what I was referring to and these are ADDITION to the Bible == Man's Theories.



The higlighted section in red....is not entirely true. There were cause and reason for Lucifer's fall and the Bible says it. He was made perfect, beautiful, and with a mind that could reason. Again, no matter how Lucifer fell, it is still the ultimate responbility of the Creator, because the Lord created him. According to His Laws of liabilities in Ex 22, the creator is responsible for whatever his creation does.




Is 45 doesn't "seem" to say that God created evil. It plainly says He did and repeats it that He did all those things.

AV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I do agree with your comment about the word evil ra' which Strong defines it as "bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)" by which can be in a form of "calamities" as a result of judgments. Most of the "evil" we experience today is a consequence of God's judgments because of our or our fore fathers disobedience.

The word "evil" (or ra') also, in certan application, means "adversary" by which is the proper definition of the word "satan" or "devil". And the Bible tells us the devil was a lyer from the beginning. This contradicts Ezekel 28 that says "Lucifer" was perfect at the beginning. Thus this leads to the possibility that the devil and Lucifer may not the same person or entitity.

But look at Is 45 again, it contrasted light with darkness and peace with evil with the Lord saying He created all of these. We know that darkness was on the earth before the light was created. These were the Lord's own choice and good pleasure to create darkness before light. Not man and not the devil.

You cannot get around what the Bible says in clear word that the Lord created evil in all its definitions.

Now to say that the Lord did not create "sinful evil" that's a stretch and trying to avoid the proper definition of "evil". I agree the Lord did not Sin by the proper definition of the word "sin" (Khataw) which is to miss the target of righteousness. The Lord will turn all evil into good and in doing so will hit all targets dead center without missing any one of them.

Here's some other texts that uses the word evil (ra') from post#152180. Let's bring two texts that says that the Lord sent an Evil(bad) spirit in people. Hmmmm.....

------- part of Post # 152180----
God Sent an Evil Spirit

Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: Jdg 9:23

And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. 1Sa 16:23 see also v. 15,16

Let me just at this point mention how clearly we see how our attitude to the Bible makes such a great difference in how we understand it.

Elle wrote;

"Blessings Alchemy.

Notice what I have highighted in red in your statement. None of the Bible text you brought says that or allude to this notion. That's what I was referring to and these are ADDITION to the Bible == Man's Theories. "

I read what you highlighted, and Sister White clearly speaks of this in Patriarchs and Prophets. But, we know God would try to save Lucifer and the angels that followed Lucifer, right? (PP 39.1)

But, God did try to stop Lucifer and bring him to repentance, but Lucifer wouldn't listen.

Tx for considering what I wrote. I understand that you got that from the writings of EGW. I myself, SDA for 28+ years, held that point of view for the longest time until I started to look for what the Bible actually says. My point is this notion and many other things that we SDAs repeat --- are notions that are not found in scriptures. We need to be careful with that and stay away from it. EGW also told us not to quote her and study for ourself what scriptures says and be able to prove all things from scriptures. Thanks to her counsel, I've been stuying for myself for over 10 years now.



The Bible doesn't tell us that. We do not have much details about what happened in heaven with the angels, but we do have some detail about the fall of Adam.

Besides not confining the devil who had previously gored to death 1/3 of the angels, we also know the Lord DID NOT put a hedge, or angels with flaming swords, or other measure to prohibit anyone to go near the tree of knowledge to prevent Adam and Eve from falling. The law of liability says that if you "dig a hole", you must cover it to prevent anyone to fall in it. A simple command "don't go around that hole" is not enough. According to the laws of liabilities the creator of the hole must cover it to insure no-one will fall in it.

From this we see the Lord did not prevent Adam & Eve from falling, then why do you suppose that He did all those things to prevent Satan from falling?

I believe that the Lord had the fall of Adam in His plan from the beginning and had Jesus slain before He created the world. This is not to cast BLAME on the Lord nor to make Him look bad or evil. Nor does this act of "negligence" saying that He made them fall.

My speculative reflection on this is that He foreknew that a fall was enevitable by creating perfect beautiful beings with a thinking minds that didn't know the Lord nor His ways(laws). Thus He let the fall happen but by making Himself ultimately liable for it in plain sight by so many obvious accounts(devil not confined ,no hedge around the tree, etc...) so we will know that the Lord will take His responsibility and make it all good. Thus by law He made himself ultimatly liable for the salvation of everyone.

I see this foresight as an act of ultimate Love, filled with care to let us know ahead of time in plain sight. The Lord's plan will not fail and He is able to turn all these "evil" events into good --- with great pleasure in His heart.

Let us not ADD or try to fit scriptures to say what we(or any man, or Church)think. Let's read it as it is and seek the wisdom of the Lord in what He reavealed to us.

I would think the Sons of God knew Him and had a understanding of His Law of Love along with the angels.

??? Sons of God = Adam or Lucifer or the angels? Are you saying that they knew the Lord from the beginning? That He pre-programmed their brains with understanding before they were created? I personally don't think so. But this no one can prove as this is not reveal knowledge to us. We know that babies are not pre-programmed and have to learn everything, so that's why I think that is not so. Then it takes a long time for a child to learn right from wrong and that when their parents correct them, it is love.

So your statement that they knew His laws of love...I think so not also. It takes time to know the Lords laws and it takes time to understand that His corrections(judgments) is Love. That's one way the Bible describes LOVE...a Father that corrects His children. Few earthly parents correct their children, but our heavenly Father does...starting with those He has chosen. Like Jesus did, He started to teach 12 disciples and not the crowd.

Concerning the devil, Jesus said that he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. That is quite a statement.

Blessings Elle. You wrote;

"Besides not confining the devil who had previously gored to death 1/3 of the angels, we also know the Lord DID NOT put a hedge, or angels with flaming swords, or other measure to prohibit anyone to go near the tree of knowledge to prevent Adam and Eve from falling. The law of liability says that if you "dig a hole", you must cover it to prevent anyone to fall in it. A simple command "don't go around that hole" is not enough. According to the laws of liabilities the creator of the hole must cover it to insure no-one will fall in it." (bold emphasis mine)

Where is this idea in the Bible? God can test us anyway He chooses! Satan is allowed his power and opportunity as you mentioned about there not being a hedge around the tree in the Garden of Eden to keep away everyone. We are simply to trust God and obey.

Obviously, Lucifer did not do this and he is now Satan.

The laws of liability are found in the Law starting at Ex 21:28. There's 4 laws of liability each revealing different levels of liability.

1. The owner of the Beast (Ex 21:28-32 & Ex 22:5) : This law teaches one main lesson -- the owner of the beast is responsible for its beasts actions :

a) that the owner of a beast is responsible for the beast's action.
b)if the owner has the pre-knowledge that its beast had push anyone(not kill), then the owner has the responsibility to confine its beast.
c)if confinement was not done and the owner had pre-knowledge that it had pushed anyone in the pass and the beats killed someone -- then the owner had to die.
d) if the beast pushes(not kill) someone, the owner has to pay 30 shekels of silver(symbolic of the price of ransom).
e) if the beast eats the fruits of someone's field, the owner will pay restitution for the loss. The devil ate(consumed) the fruits(of the Spirits) of Adam's field(the earth), thus the owner(Our Lord) will pay restitution.

2. Putting a Fence to prevent a fall (Deut 22:8) : The Lord build the earth(house) for Man. The one that builds a house is responsible to make the house safe. On his roof a fence is required to prevent someone to fall. The Lord planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the MIDST of the garden. Thus, the Lord was responsible to build a fence around the tree to make sure no one would get close to it and fall.

3. Cover the Pit (Ex 21:33,34) : This one is similar to #2 above, however it gives a better visualization that the hole MUST be covered to ensure a total safe environment. A sign or a verbal command is not sufficient to satisfied the safety or the requirement of this law.

4. Owner of the Fire (Ex 22:6) : This law is similar to #1 but here it gives the dimension that the owner is still responsible for something that is uncontrollable and destructive as fire can be. If he is the creator of that fire, despite he only had the intention to cook food with it or whatever use he had planned for it; if that fire spread and became destructive for whatever reason beyond you; you are still responsible for all its damages.

Yes I believe the Lord test us all the time. Testing is part of the education process. The Lord is our Master Teacher -- the best there is. A teacher that knows how to teach without failing.(Ps 94:10) He is teaching us His laws, testing us, and writes it on our hearts.

I do not believe Adam had the Lord's laws written in his heart(in his mind) at creation. Perhaps it was written in his body(DNA) but I don't think it was written in his mind. That's maybe why scriptures says the Lord is on this task.

Despite, the laws of liability still applies. There's no way around it. Giving some level of freedom to His creations does not nullify the Lord's laws.

I understand your opposition. It takes a long time to chew on this law to begin assimilating it. To us the Lord should not break His own laws. What we miss is the Bible tells us that Jesus will make it all good -- at the end when all things will be put under Jesus feet and the Lord will be all in all. The Lord will have not broken any laws because He will pay restitution and do the judgments of the law while succeeding to bring all things under His feet (submit everything in heaven, on earth, and under the earth).

Most of the time when man breaks a law, he cannot make all things good that his actions(that can become an uncontrollable fire that spreads) incured. However, it is not the same for the Lord. He can make it all good and He will for the Bible tells us so.

Jesus said He will fulfill every law to the smallest character. Thus He is fulfilling the laws of liabilities and its judgments as He fulfilled the law of divorcement, and all other laws. These laws are also prophetic -- showing us what the Lord is doing & fulfilling.


Well, man didn't obey and trust either -- does that make us Satan -- the devil? Perhaps so.

Elle wrote;

"Despite, the laws of liability still applies. There's no way around it. Giving some level of freedom to His creations does not nullify the Lord's laws. "

I read Exodus on this "law of liability" and the intent is critical! If the owner knew the ox had been known to gore people and the owner did nothing about it, then the owner would die as well. But, if the owner didn't know the ox was capable of goring people, then there was no damages required of the owner.

God did not intend for Adam and Eve to fall! God did not intend for Lucifer to fall! God wanted a creation that would love Him in return. What a wonderful God!

Oh, btw, Satan has not gored 1/3 of the angels to death.

Read the law again. It says "AV Ex 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death."

The law says only in the knowing that the ox PUSH with its horn, the owner is oblige to confine that ox. This means the angels didn't need to fall, but only in the attempt to make them fall that the Law requires that the Lord confined the devil.



Whether the Lord intended the devil, the angels or man to fall or not it is irrelevant. The Lord is the owner of them all and is responsible for their actions. Just like the owner-creator of the fire who had no intend to burn the field of its neighbor. The intend is not a determinant of liability. What was the determinant is wether or not you are the OWNER of the beast or CREATOR of that fire. And if that beast or fire goes wild despite of your good intention in creating it -- the law of liability says you are still responsible.


It all depends what is your definition of death. Adam didn't die emmediatly also, but with time they did. So will the angels according to scriptures.

As commented above and highlighed in the Law -- the beast doesn't need to kill anyone prior to being confined, it only needed to PUSH someone with its horns.

If you mean Satan led 1/3 of the angels to death, then I agree. Satan is the scapegoat, not the angels he deceived.

People and angels are NOT oxen.

God created people and angels with reasoning powers and conscience.
He didn't create them as a bunch of oxen who simply react on instinct.

Freedom and reasoning powers is a wonderful gift that makes it possible to love and serve and make intelligent choices with understanding and commitment -- Humans were created with this capability and given all the resources to do so.

Are you liable for creating children who, when they are fully grown with full capacity to reason and think things through, choose to do wrong and evil -- or is this their responsibility?

Jesus is not a lamb, a dove, an oxen, or flour. However the symbology(language) of the law does say that He is all of those.


Are you trying to rewrite/change the Laws of liability? Moreso you are trying to make it void. The ox in the first part of this law is an example. We are to seek the meaning of it and its application in various situation. This law does not only talk about oxen but also people that lit up a fire, dug a hole or build a house which are all given more information to what extend you are liable. The Laws of liability does not say "if you are living in a society with freedom and reasoning powers....you don't need to cover the hole...you don't need to put railings on your roof top to prevent people from falling...you don't need to be responsible if the fire you created destroyed your neighbors house.... That's quite silly.


First, the Lord is the one that formed and created those children. Second, yes we will be held accountable for our part of up-bringing them in forming(or destroying) their value system that played a part in their adult-life decision making. On a Church level the same is true about leaders who also will be held accountable for what they taugh to the congregation that raised these "children".

However we won't be held totally(or solely) responsible for their(our children) actions. The same applys with the Lord; He is not going to take sole responsibility for the actions of His children. That's why there's a judgment day. He did take the overall responsibility for everything for He is the Creator and mover of all things. However, He will use our sins in judgment to teach us His laws and conciliate us to Him while "not imputing their [our] trespasses unto them[us]"

I am a little surprised that a discussion about the "fit man" hasn't brought up more discussion about the "scapegoat", or "live goat"? We can discuss that here if you like.

You probably missed it but that's what we've been mostly talking about starting at page 2 'till now.

1. the live goat is not Azazel
.....*according to the Masoretic source text.
.....*according to rabbis and Jews knowledgeable of the Torah.
.....*Rabbis says Azazel is a mountain to where the fit man brought the live goat to.
.....*Azazel is mis-translated as "the scapegoat" in many English translations.


2. the ultimate responsibility of sins does NOT go on Azazel(satan).
.....*according to the laws of liability
.....*according to scriptures. One example is the book of Job. No responsibility is put on the devil. At the last chapter, it is the Lord that takes the whole responsibility of what happened to Job. " all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" Job 42:11

Thank you Elle, I did miss it.

I guess to start with, it is important that we understand the scapegoat is left alive. Just as in the parable in Luke 11:21-23, Jesus binds the strong man and spoils his house while he is alive.

So, the scapegoat can't atone for any sins. There isn't any shedding of blood and there isn't any remission for sins. All the sins on the scapegoat are under the condemnation of the law.

Do we understand this?

I do remember this post.

The evil God created isn't sin, but judgment! We call it evil because of the pain and suffering it causes, but, God chastises those whom He loves. And it is good for us when we go to far off the straight and narrow.

First of all Azazel(you call it scapegoat) is NOT the live goat. The Masoretic text, some proper translation, and the Rabbis says the live goat is sent to Azazel (the mountain).

Yes I agree with you that the live goat is left alive...to deal with Azazel(the devil).




Yes, I couldn't agree more. The strong man in Luke 11-23-26 is the devil(or demons). 'Azaz from "Azazel" means "to be stout or strong". The stronger man here is Jesus. He is stronger than the devil. The house is us. The devil or demons possess us. And Jesus is the only stronger man that can come and take the devil out of our house.

However, I don't see the "stronger man" in Luke 11 is the same as the "fit man" or "ready man" thought. Both have different definitions. I see Jesus(the live goat) is the stronger man that takes cares of the devil. The "fit man" (or the Holy Spirit as reveal in the baptism of Jesus) is the one that led the Live Goat(Jesus, the stronger man) to the desert to deal with the devil(Azazel).


If you mean that "scapegoat" = Azazel; I agree Azazel cannot atone for sin.

But if you mean that the Live Goat (Jesus) = scapegoat, then your statement is lacking and isn't true.

Your statement is lacking because it takes the two works of Christ to atone for sin which is depicted by the two doves and the two goats in those atoenment and cleansing rituals.

Both are necessary. It required two animals to illustrate the two comings of Christ.

The first coming == the dead dove == the dead goat : was a "dead work" that makes us righetous. However the righteousness is not yet an actuality in our lives. However this work of Christ makes us RIGHTEOUS.

It requires the second work of Christ which is a LIVE WORK to bring about righteousness by coming into our house to cast out the devil(the lies).

The second coming == the live dove == the live goat : Just as Luke 11 illustrated, is the live goat (stronger man) comes in an deals with Azazel(the strong man). A cleansing of the temple (our house) is a result of the stronger man casting out the stron man out of the house(our body). This work is call the "sanctification Process". It is not something that happens overnight. Every lie has to be addressed one by one. This work happened before the 2nd coming to cleanse the Elects (the overcomers). And it will continue on a grand scale at Jesus second coming.



In regards to the bolded section, where do you get in the Bible that
1) the sins are transfered on the "scapegoat".
2) All the sins of the "scapegoat" are "under condemnation of the law"

Blessings Elle,

You wrote;

"In regards to the bolded section, where do you get in the Bible that
1) the sins are transfered on the "scapegoat".
2) All the sins of the "scapegoat" are "under condemnation of the law""

First of all, the scapegoat and the live goat are one in the same. If you compare Leviticus 16:10 and 16:21, clearly the scapegoat and the live goat are one in the same. Reading 16:8-10 and 16:20-22 show a clear comparison and connection between the scapegoat and the live goat.

1) Leviticus 16:20-21.
2) They must be, in v. 20 says after "he hath made an end of reconciling". Since there isn't anymore remission available, all those sins must be under the combination of the Law. The live goat is addressed in vss. 21-22.

Rabbis are not inspired
The Jewish people had a lot of faulty interpretations of scripture, thus we cannot use their writings as proof.

Lev. 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for JEHOVAH, and the other lot for AZAZEL.

So one goat is for Jehovah
the other goat is for Azazel

16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the AZAZEL, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to send AZAZEL into the wilderness.

This text is pretty plain that the live goat is AZAZEL and is to sent into the wilderness (midbar)

The priest goes into the tabernacle with the blood of slain goat to cleanse the temple, the altar and worshipers of all the sins committed.

16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness

So it is the slain goat which typifies the cleansing process.

Once the cleansing process is completed there is another step -- the priest has removed sin from the tabernacle and the people but he is still carrying it, now he transfers it all (this is after the cleansing of tabernacle and people is completed) unto the AZAZEL.

16:20And when he has made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

There is a very real transfer upon the head of the AZAZEL, of all the sins which the blood of the slain goat had cleansed from the tabernacle and the people.

It's like the janitor using a cleansing solution on the people and on all the equipment needed to cleanse the people, and when he has made everything sparkling clean, comes out with to dispose of the "dirty" water, placing it on the head of the AZAZEL and sending it far out into the wilderness.
(He wasn't sent to a mountain -- it was simply far out into the wilderness)

The "fit man" is not the devil, for the "fit man" is to come back into the camp, wash his cloths and be part of the congregation.

In the fulfillment of the day of atonement we know it is an angel of God that binds Satan in the wilderness of this earth where he can meditate and view the ruin and desolation his pride produced.

Satan is the source of evil.
Of course the spiritualistic view seeks to excuse him and place the blame upon the Creator God.
That is all part of the "new age" interpretations and has been Lucifer's line all through the great controversy.

But in the end -- everyone will be clear on that point. God is the author of holiness and goodness, there is NO EVIL in Him at all.
Evil is a mystery that was developed in the mind of Lucifer. It was unknown to created beings prior to this, thus was allowed to demonstrate its full fruits, till everyone understands -- it is not God that is unfair or tyrannical, it is the mystery of iniquity that was created in Lucifer's mind and mushroomed as he imbued mankind with his spirit.

Azazel is similar to an Akkadian word meaning, "angry god".

Excellent post dedication.

dedication mentioned the Lord's goat and I believe we should cover this goat in more detail if possible.

The bullock was sacrificed first and then the Lord's goat. I believe the blood of the Lord's goat is the fullers soap in Malachi 3:2. This blood is what actually cleanses the sanctuary and the people of God. I believe it is also that which washes our memories so that we can't remember our sins any longer. For that matter, I don't believe the ungodly will be able to remember our sins any longer. (GC 483.1 to 485.1)

The "fit man" is those who have been prepared for the Latter Rain by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They lead the scapegoat over the bridge of the Red Heifer to the wilderness of forgetfulness.

These are they who have gained the victory over sin through submission.

Blessings James,

Do you have any Scripture or Spirit of Prophecy to support your post? I know I would like to see it.

Why don't you do your own research "ALCHEMY"? ***** STAFF EDIT *****

Are we in the anti-typical day of Atonement? Is Christ coming with the reward? So then sin must first be put away correct?

"On the Day of Atonement two kids of the goats were brought to the door of the tabernacle, and lots were cast upon them, “one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.” The goat upon which the first lot fell was to be slain as a sin offering for the people. And the priest was to bring his blood within the veil, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat. “And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.” {CIHS 35.2}
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited.” Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward. All business was laid aside, and the whole congregation of Israel spent the day in solemn humiliation before God, with prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart. {CIHS 35.3}
Important truths concerning the atonement were taught the people by this yearly service. In the sin offerings presented during the year, a substitute had been accepted in the sinner’s stead; but the blood of the victim had not made full atonement for the sin. It had only provided a means by which the sin was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood, the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed the guilt of his transgression, and expressed his faith in Him who was to take away the sin of the world; but he was not entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering for the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, above the tables of the law. Thus the claims of the law, which demanded the life of the sinner, were satisfied. Then in his character of mediator the priest took the sins upon himself, and, leaving the sanctuary, he bore with him the burden of Israel’s guilt. At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him “all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.” And as the goat bearing these sins was sent away, they were, with him, regarded as forever separated from the people. Such was the service performed “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things.” Hebrews 8:5. {CIHS 35.4}